all these people conducting the seance
where bringing in these nine maybe
extraterrestrial beings, maybe beings
that go to the nine Egyptian gods, but
it's like a council. He really was a
genuine believer.
>> I'm Andrea Puhar. I'm a physician by
training, research scientist by choice.
>> We have tape recordings of him
meditating in the king's chamber. What?
And they brought through this
information. And apparently they're
channeling this Egyptian god. And
>> and there are nine there are
specifically nine Egyptian gods.
>> So he guess it's called metallic voice.
That was some sort of you know alien
intelligence.
>> This is what you know you hear a lot
about this with the UFO abduction stuff.
Like these these people like weren't
looking to be in the spotlight. It took
about 2 years for me to basically earn
the trust of these space kids. It's like
Stranger Things in real life.
>> You know, one neat solution that would
explain everything away would be mind
control, right?
>> Delgato implanted radio receivers in the
heads of bulls.
>> Delgato has remote control of the
animal.
>> You have a guy who's being able to play
the bull like a video game.
>> I'm revealing for the first time a lot
of things that even my closest working
colleagues do not know.
There's reason to believe Bhar may have
been a double agent. He says it
>> really tape.
>> This is one of the craziest interviews
I've ever done, man.
>> Ignition sequence.
>> How is this possible?
>> Nothing too unusual about that.
>> Their existence cannot longer be denied.
I'm here with Greg Malazzi. This has
been a long time coming. We've had a lot
of interesting offline conversations.
You made an amazing documentary called
Mind Traveler about this very mysterious
mid-century scientist named Andrea
Puharic,
who is like this zele of American
conspiracies. He's this architect of MK
Ultra and early CIA mind control
techniques, but also seems to be
channeling aliens through what he calls
the space kids, this like collection of
kids who he recruits who are psychic.
Um, he's the inspiration for Star Trek
incidentally. Like he is one of the most
interesting people uh I've ever
encountered and you've made this amazing
documentary on him. So, I'm I just can't
wait to to dive into this and I
appreciate you being here.
>> Oh, thanks, man. I appreciate you having
me.
>> Absolutely.
>> So, what give me a little bit about the
origin story for Andre Puharic. Who is
he and um how did he come to be one of
these kind of renegade spooky scientists
involved in mind control?
>> I guess you could started at um
Northwestern University. He uh went
there uh he was a medical student. I
think he started in 47.
And so he uh was there doing all sorts
of stuff with uh the nervous system. He
was very interested in in in that. And
he was doing like normal medical
training. And he was actually part of
the army specialized training program.
Have you heard of this?
>> No.
>> It's this special program where
basically they recruit students who they
believe could be, you know, useful. um
to whatever they're planning on doing in
the in certain categories of the army,
whether it be medical so forth. He was a
medical doctor and he he was part of
this program. It's very strange.
Kissinger was part of this program.
Really?
>> A bunch of other weird people. Um Kurt
Vonagget, the author.
>> What?
>> Yeah, you could look it up. Uh it's it's
really weird. So, he he was part of
that. basically it was like sort of a
recruiting program and they saw
something in him all the way back in 47
when he was a medical student and he he
very rarely in fact I've never even
heard him mention this and in all the
stuff I've listened to and read about
him so for whatever reason you know he
didn't talk about it and that could have
been his first you know step into that
world the military world but um that
happened when he was a medical student
like way before the roundt foundation
the first lab he had or anything like
that. So
>> what did this military program this army
program involve?
>> You can even on Wikipedia there's
there's not much about it but again I
think it was more like looking at
certain institutions certain places for
people who are special. I mean army
specialized training you know and he was
considered special at that time for what
he was doing and they just saw something
in him and he was brought into that
program. I don't know what it did
exactly or you know what like yeah the
dayto-day or anything but he was part of
it as well as like again a list of other
people like in all areas right again
Kurt Vonagget the author like all these
people were a part of that. Uh
>> where was he a medical student?
Northwestern Chicago, which you know is
a very
>> prestigious school.
>> Absolutely. Evston and I think also
Jaylen Heinik was you know astronomer
Blue Book was Northwestern too. So
>> yeah.
>> Uh okay. So he's in the Chicago suburbs
and he's a medical student. How does he
get into like telepathy and mind control
and things like that?
>> I came up with a theory of the nervous
system that I called the Puharic theory.
I visualize the nervous system as being
embedded in the cell tissue of the body
just as the roots of a tree are embedded
in the ground which gives it
nourishment.
But the tree also has a similar network
radiating into the sky.
Perhaps man does as well and he too
gains nourishment through a touchless
process.
And if dynamics can be transferred, why
can't thoughts
So
he was yeah a medical student and
there's a guy also at Northwestern at
the time named Warren S. McCulla. Do you
know who that is?
>> No. Who's that?
>> You you could do an episode on him. He's
he's like, you know, a puharic on
steroids sort of back then at least. But
he was this very far out researcher into
into um
>> basically ESP okay stuff back then. And
he was very interested in like
>> you know altering uh drugs, psychedelic
drugs, mindaltering stuff.
>> For the audience, ESP is extra sensory
perception.
>> Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Extrins perception. So
he was at Northwest and this guy
McCullo, I think I'm pronouncing that
right. Um but he sort of took Bharach
under his wing and um from what I
understand was the first person who
introduced him to you know whatever
weird science if you want to call it
that because he was one of these guys
McCulla who would you know on his off
time do all these like strange
experiments with uh radio frequencies
and and and that kind of stuff. And I
think like in the academic setting he
had to you know put on a suit and tie
and like not talk about that basically.
>> But um he also was very involved in
intelligence stuff like he was always
getting sort of like we have letters um
from like CIA and stuff back then who
were kind of going to him uh with
questions and and so forth.
>> McCulla.
>> McCulla. Yeah.
>> Interesting.
>> Yeah. And he actually there was an
archive in I think it wasn't
Northwestern, it was
some bizarre archive I found years ago
making the film and you know you I know
you had Annie Jacobson on like she she's
in the film and she was trying to find
records on McCullo because you know he's
really interesting. saying he was part
of the Boohar story and and somehow we
found this like big stash of archives of
his that again were these letters from
from CIA and and the Navy and everything
sort of I guess wanting to to recruit
him. M
>> but in those letters they were there
were letters from malo back to these
agencies saying you know you should
check this guy Bharich out
>> you know he's I work with him he's young
he's very smart and and he was older
like much older than Bhar at that time I
think he was probably like you know
>> in his 70s or 80s or something so you
know he passed on but basically that I
think triggered Bhar to get very
interested in the subject so he became
almost like obsessed with it and he sort
of had this moment back then where he's
like, I'm either going to choose the
traditional academic path or I'm going
to choose the, you know, path of of ESP
telepathy. And he he talks very openly
about like making that choice.
I was unexpectedly put in contact with
Henry A. Wallace, vice president under
Franklin Delanor Roosevelt.
He was impressed by my quest for the
existence of telepathy and granted me a
large sum of money. Additional
benefactors emerged, including the heirs
to two of the wealthiest families in the
world, the Aers and the Dupants.
>> I was able to get a barn. I started
working in the dead of winter in 48 in
in Maine.
>> We lived in a big uh 50 room house on
the seashore, which was the lab and
residence and so on. it was called the
Roundtable Foundation.
>> And so he opens the Roundtable
Foundation. So there's a lot going on
with how that even opened um because
it's a huge lab. It's like a massive
barn. It's on the coast of Maine,
Rockland, Maine, it's called. So you
know, it's this huge place. He's got
like a staff, you know, all and and and
the thing with Puharic, I learned like
he
tells a a different story of how the
round table started and how we got the
money and everything to what we kind of
figured out was really going on.
>> What did you figure out?
>> Well, it was all, you know, government
funded
>> um at that time.
>> Who was the CIA or
>> uh everyone? Army, Navy, CIA,
um something called the um AR something
armor foundation that was somehow tied
into into the army. But but basically
any any of those places back then. I
mean we have letters um
>> uh of of all of them. You get army, you
name it. I mean they were just like
flocking to this place basically giving
him money to do research. And this was
yeah 4950
very early.
>> Fascinating. And you think their
preliminary interest was mind control,
telepathy, anything beyond the purview
of kind of normal materialist
reductionist physics that might be able
to be weaponized or confer a tactical
advantage to the United States or
>> it's it's complex, but yes, the short
answer is yes. But I think obviously
there was an interest in ESP and in what
he was doing and in this idea of okay,
what if this is real? I mean, he speaks
a lot and we, you know, we uncovered
like hundreds of tape recordings of his
um that no one's ever heard. And so, you
know, he talks a lot about like they
were just obsessed at that time with
like what if this were real? What are
the implications? What if somebody could
basically remote view? I mean he was
doing remote viewing and this is
something like I don't think is really
out there like way way before SRRI7s
like we're talking early 50s he's
basically doing what would be considered
remote viewing
>> do you think how put off was aware of
Puharic's kind of foundation that he set
with remote viewing because the story is
that you know official American remote
viewing kind of started with how put off
and Russell Tar and Stanford Research
Institute. Yeah, I'm I'm not trying to
make bold statements, but this is that's
not, you know, true. If you look if
you're looking at it from a
>> like research, when did this start?
Because
>> we have like all of the um roundt
research, which is so much. I mean, even
all the time we spent on the film, it's
I still haven't looked at it all, but
they basically detail the experiments
going on, which were, you know, your
classic ESP stuff, you know, like the
cards. Yep. all that, but no, they were
doing like what would exactly the
definition of like remote viewing
>> and so yeah, I think they were they, you
know, intelligence community so forth
were were just very intrigued with what
was going on there.
>> So, it's a combination of kind of, you
know, these military factions and then
these kind of blue-blooded elites.
>> Yeah.
>> Sort of. And um what exactly is going on
there? So, who is he recruiting to do
these experiments and what sort of
experiments is he running at the
Roundtable Foundation?
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What exactly is going on there? So, who
is he recruiting to do these experiments
and what sort of experiments is he
running at the round table foundation?
So
again, it started with a lot of just
basic ESP stuff, you know, can can
somebody uh pick up on what's written on
a letter in the other room? um a lot of
yeah like the card uh uh guessing and
then he obviously built a Faraday cage
there and I think you know was one of
the first people as far as I understand
doing ESP test in a in a Faraday cage
where basically he would like put people
who claim to be psychic in in the cage
and it was his belief that that could
sort of you know block out anything from
the outside and it would really help the
psychic focus and be able to do what
they could do And he had I mean Aldis
Huxley would go to the Roundtable
Foundation, right? And and obviously
Aldis Huxley is
>> known probably best for a lot of his
science fiction work, but but also you
know the doors of perception where he
talks about his experience with with
measculine and then you know if you
really get into the maybe deeper kind of
architectures of his thinking like in
perennial philosophy he's like clearly
this kind of deep esotericist and so he
was hanging out at the Round Table
Foundation too. Yeah, they were good
friends. In fact, on uh Bukhar's book,
The Sacred Mushroom, which is how I got
into this whole thing. I I
>> had read that book when I was much
younger. You know, I was really
interested in all that stuff. And uh you
know, uh what's the book? DMT, the
spirit molecule.
>> Yeah, really into that. And I came
across the sacred mushroom, Bhar's book,
which is very interesting. Have you read
that?
>> I haven't read it. Yeah, I I think I
have it but I haven't read it. Yeah,
>> the premise is basically you know and
this was also the research he was doing
at the round table was pe you know
taking a certain type of mushroom uh in
this instance the ammonita of mascaria
you know gives people ESP abilities and
they did extensive research on that
there but uh on the cover of that book
you know Aldis Huxley gives a blurb for
Bhar and calls him you know the greatest
mind in parasychology
but yeah they were good friends he was
there all the time again very interested
in what he was doing. Really thought
Bukharic was like on to something. So
yeah.
>> Yeah. And the Amanita Mascaria mushroom
is a very interesting mushroom. It's the
kind of archetypal you know emoji on all
of our uh you know cell phones or
iPhones at least. Um but it also I I
believe uh John Marco Allegro who was a
you know a scholar of various you know
ancient languages he came to the very
heretical conclusion that the Eucharist
itself was uh an ammonita miscaria
mushroom. And so the the actual
transubstantiation involved this like
mushroom and that maybe what Jesus
underwent was some sort of kind of pagan
mystery ritual that allowed him to sort
of gain the magical powers that he
achieved in the book of acts and that
that whole thing had some kind of
hermetic meaning
>> that um you know isn't just maybe a
literal reincarnation or something.
Yeah.
>> And um so that I assume that must have
because I think his the name of his book
is similar. It's the sacred mushroom in
the cross or something.
>> Yeah.
>> So, was there maybe some some influence
there with
>> Bhar? I'm sure there was. You know, from
from what I understand when Bharaj's
book came out, it was, you know, it's
now sort of like a cult classic, but at
the time it was like, you know,
controversial because basically people
just didn't believe in what he was
writing.
>> Yeah. And that I think kind of
kickstarted the you know way people
looked at Bharaj as being you know kind
of like a a cook
>> but he clearly wasn't
>> clearly but he was he also was amongst
he was kind of a pioneer and had a few
peers who were also at the forefront of
their fields people like Albert Hoffman
Carl Ruck and Stannis Lav Grath who
thought of themselves as creating what
they called the new elusis based on kind
of you know past mystery rituals, the
Elusinian mystery rituals. Yeah. And
they involved Urgot and psychedelic
substances and you know these sort of
you know pphanes quest style you know
you you go down you descend to the
underworld and you come back up and you
you know you you you gain knowledge of
your primordial soul. And so Buharic was
you know uh uh he was amidst this
backdrop. He was he was sort of on his
on his comeup which oh yeah,
>> you know maybe isn't a coincidence.
We are the positive principles of
cosmos. We penetrate visit persons. We
work through this study but it is under
our control.
We nine and are will
>> the very first time that Andre heard
about the nine was through Dr. Vod
>> have never seen people like this that I
have studied Dr. to be now had become a
channel for a civilization somewhere out
there from outer space. It's so alien to
our thinking we can't even comprehend
it.
They call themselves these beings the
nine. Said what is the nine? They said
well it's hard to explain you. We're not
personalities as you think of
personality. We're more like laws or
principle of the universe. The part of
Puhar's
story where I think things sort of
change in his life is when you know this
instance happens when the they they
first channel the nine which was in 52
and it is correct all these people were
there again these were people who were
like benefactors who were interested in
what he was doing but um it all started
with this guy Venade that you may have
heard this name. He was a an Indian
psychic. He came to the round table
again through recommendation of somebody
Bhar uh was working with. And the story
goes he shows up in Maine, goes to the
Roundtable Foundation, and the first
night he's there, he just unexpectedly
falls into a into a trance. And you
know, they're like, "What's going on
here?" Someone grabs a tape recorder,
which we have the tapes of, and he goes
into a trance and he just starts
speaking, you know, saying, you know, we
are the nine and uh where we're coming
through to you now and and just kind of
on and on and on about a lot of
philosophical
new age sort of stuff basically. I mean,
it's really really it's a lot. I mean
there's there's thousands of pages
literally of transcripts of what they
recorded with him. But that's how it it
it the story goes of how the nine first
appears based with this guy Venade but
mostly Venad. So the interesting
interesting thing about uh this guy Dr.
Venad was his name. He he was friends
with Gandhi right they were they were
really they were really close. So this
was something I learned like way later
into the process of the film because you
know this was as you know it took like
almost 10 years and it was mostly
because these new facts and things would
just like come up that I never knew or
somebody would say hey have you seen
this and and so Venade like I only
really discovered a couple years into it
but he was an interesting guy and he was
on a tour at the time in the United
States uh going to like Rotary clubs and
and dinner parties like lecturing about
theosophy and spiritualism and all sorts
of stuff like that and it is very very
little information on this guy. I mean
we tried to dig up like everything we
possibly could but that's what we know
about him. He was a professor at
university in Bombay and again with Bhar
like he never mentions any of that. his
version of the story is this guy they
just randomly came in fell into a trance
no context you know never mentions it.
So that begins this like okay what's
what's really going on here because he
clearly is has a background that's
that's interesting that he just never
mentioned and then when leaves
eventually I think 54 he goes back it
never talks about him again you know
there's this huge moment in his life the
nine first comes through through this
guy and he just sort of like never talks
about I think that's where the
conspiracy starts as far as what people
believe to be like I guess a a scop I
mean
>> right
>> we I don't want we don't have to get
into that now but
>> no I want to get into the scop elements
of it but it it sounds like
fundamentally he's a believer in
extrensory perception psychic abilities
right he's not cynical about those
things or is yeah
>> no yeah that's I think a big question
and
>> even now I I I always think but I mean
yeah there's just no question he was
interested in that
>> yeah and earnestly or do you think it
was some front? Okay, because what's and
we'll get into this in a little bit, but
it that there are also possible prosaic
explanations around exotic
electromagnetic wavelengths that can
cause you know thoughts to be implanted
in people and stuff which is nuts.
>> Um but
>> I think he wouldn't reduce everything to
that would be my rough understanding
personally. Yeah.
>> No, definitely not. Yeah, there's a lot
to get into there, but basically, so
what did the nine say?
>> Yes.
>> And so again, it's really it's a lot. So
I have to give a shout out to Dick
Russell.
>> Russell, I do.
>> So So he he's awesome.
>> Great guy.
>> And uh he he's written some amazing
books. And so he he was friends with
this woman, Marian Shenfield, this, you
know, allegedly uh amazing psychic. She
passed away. But I got to know Dick and
he said, you know, I met Buharic once.
In fact, I I tape recorded an interview
with him. It was 94, literally the year
before Buharic died/ was found dead
mysteriously. But um he he recorded an
interview with him because at the time
Dick Russell was wanting to write like a
definitive book about MK Ultra and he
wanted to interview these people
involved in it. In fact, he has one of
the only interviews as far as I know
with Sydney Gotautly. Spent a whole day
with him. He literally show told me just
showed up at his house and said, "Hey,
you know, yes or no, will you let me
interview you?" And and he said, "Yes."
And
>> so he has that. So that this was part of
that research he was doing for a book.
But um
>> just for the audience real quick cuz I
know we're getting into what the nine
said, but Sydney got was known as the
kind of US version of Joseph Mangle, a
poisoner and chief, an architect of MK
Ultra from the technical staff services.
So that's wild. They also spent a whole
day with him.
>> Yeah.
>> So what what are the nine saying? So, so
yeah, it's a lot of the sort of usual, I
guess, channeling talk where
there's this idea that
there's been this this uh surveillance
of of Earth and that they've been
monitoring Earth and they've been seeing
the negative things happening. They've
been seeing wars. They've been seeing
nuclear weapons and they're wanting to
help basically the the general message
is this idea that they are are wanting
to help the human race you know
basically not destroy itself.
>> This you know goes on way through the
70s when Bhar the nine come back.
>> Uh but it it was basically a lot of yeah
trying to help humanity. It was a lot of
like
you've probably heard a lot about how
they sometimes these channelers are uh
you know what is it called like remote
writing when someone's in a writing
>> the automatic writing there's a lot of
like very complex equations
>> that would come through that would the
the nine the nine meaning venade in a
trance speaking as the nine a lot of
like write this down because you'll
understand later what it means sort of
stuff and we have this notebook that he
wrote everything in It's really I mean
maybe I'm sure you might know somebody
who could look at this. I mean I I'm
just making the film. I mean I'm very
>> Well, we should see if any of it checks
with actual science or
>> math or it's crazy. They would say the
nine. They would say, you know, okay,
look, you're contacting us through a
psychic, but if you want a clearer feed,
a a clearer transmission, you have to
put the psychic in a Faraday cage. And
on top of that, you should tweak the
Faraday cage and build it this way and
use this type of metal and use this
type. They were they were telling him
and constructing him how to like build
the Faraday cage in a specific way that
would like help this transmission. And
it did.
>> Whoa.
>> Because you can hear the tapes. It was a
lot. It was very like stalled speech and
waiting. And then when they did the
Faraday cage sessions, it was like just
boom, they would talk. So I heard that I
was like, "Okay, well that that's
weird." you know,
>> so crazy
>> because like again there's a lot of it
that you could just say, "Oh, you know,
this could have been made up or
whatever, but when it gets to that, it
was very very specific stuff. You know,
copper, they were big on copper, you
need to use that and it needs to be, you
know, these dimensions." I mean, really
specific stuff. And they would follow
it. So they were basically like
following instructions from the nine
>> and you see the results get better as
far as their channeling as
>> you see the results get better
>> and that again to me I just thought that
that's that's interesting because it's
not just sort of like you know spiritual
mumbo jumbo
>> hand wavy stuff that's like totally
unfalsifiable. Yeah.
>> It's like the literally like the
transmissions are coming. when you say
that it's getting better, it's just like
more more gets channeled, like more
subst.
And the other thing too was again it was
this copper this thing with copper where
they would also say, okay, what you need
to do is you need to get the this is
really crazy cuz of what happens later
on in his story, but they would say, you
know, you need to have copper touching
your your skin. And so you would you
would need some sort of like bracelet or
something that would kind of like
constantly be touching your skin in
order again for like the the
transmission to be better. And they
would do that.
>> And what's crazy is uh one of the space
kids that I met and that we interviewed
for the film, she whipped out this uh
this was, you know, only a couple years
ago. She whipped out this bracelet she
had that was like a copper a little
copper plate on this bracelet that she
said like they all had to wear when they
were doing their channeling sessions
with him decades later. So the copper
thing is strange and he and Bhar
obsessed over that and that's the other
thing to me you know being a little
skeptical I was like well someone of
Puhar's uh you know academic
abilities like clearly he he he wouldn't
take the time and the energy like to
look into this stuff as deep as he did
you know like he like obsessed over this
he would go meet other academics hey
does this check out and you know he
really like was obsessive about this
being legitimate.
>> And Phyllis Schlamer, who later wrote
the only planet of choice, which
channels the nine,
>> I think she talks about the nine with
respect to messages around
>> the earth being a bottleneck of
consciousness, right? And like other
planets being more ascended and these
nine really trying to help raise
consciousness
>> on Earth, which might sort of sound like
a cliche, but
>> yeah. One thing that they were doing at
the round table uh were was that this
psychic uh this one particular psychic
would would claim that at a certain time
of night uh they would see an orb and
they would go outside by the ocean and
they would see orbs. Uh, and this
happened. And the only, you know,
evidence I I have is Bharat's own
writing because we have all of his
journals and he writes this in his
journals where he literally says like
this psychic would just blurt out, you
know, 11:00, you know, tonight and
they'd go out and they would see an orb.
>> Whoa.
>> And I just thought that was interesting
because if there's there's so much talk
of this orb stuff going on currently, I
don't know a whole lot about it, but I
just that kind of rang a bell where I'm
like, "Oh, yeah. He wrote about that and
he he he did many experiments where he
allegedly took photos which of course
you know weren't in the big stash of
photos we had from back then but he he
that's what he claimed that there was
like orb of activity. This would have
been you know early 50s again. Yeah.
>> So trippy. Yeah. No, that uh almost
sounds like Chris Bledsoe or something.
these people who seem to attract these
orbs and it would make sense because
those people also seem to be sort of
high sai or you know you know have
higher kind of mind matter capabilities
or whatever there's seems like there's
some sort of correlation there the
connection Lenda makes
>> is that all these people conducting the
seance bringing in
>> these nine maybe extraterrestrial beings
maybe beings that go to the nine
Egyptian uh gods or whatever we don't
exactly know what these nine beings are,
but it's like a council and and later
the nine prays plays prominently because
this channeler Phyis Schlamer uh like
gets all these messages from the nine
along with a lot of the kids and stuff,
but but
>> that that all of the people in this
original seance with these blue-blooded
elites are also entangled with the JFK
assassination, which is so crazy.
>> To make a long story short, there's a
seance that's held in uh late 52, early
53. I think it was the New Year's Eve of
52 to 53 and there are nine people
involved in the seance. Now, these are
not just some casual nine people you
pick up like, you know, your neighbors
or something, right? This was a Dupant
and an Aster and a Forbes. I mean,
everybody that represents the the
blue-blooded brahinss of American
society, old money people were at a
seance, a freaking seance, right? In the
woods in Maine on New Year's Eve with
Andrea Parah.
>> And one of them uh is the guy who was
the inventor of the Bell helicopter,
>> right? So Arthur is Arthur Young.
>> Arthur Young. So Arthur Young is there
with his wife. His wife is Ruth
>> Forbes Payne Young,
>> right? She had a lot of names. She was
excessively nomenclatured. And so you
have, you know, Ruth Forbes Payne Young.
She's a Forbes.
>> She was married to a George uh Payne,
Lyman Payne, and also married to Arthur
Young. So, in that seance with the, you
know, these kind of blue-blooded elites
that Puerich is convening, I think one
of the people who's close with Mary
Bankraftoft, who's Dulles's mistress, is
a woman named Ruth Forbes Payne.
>> Yeah, Ruth Forbes Pain.
>> And so, she's a Forbes first. So, again,
go into the blue-blooded elite thing,
>> but I think her daughter is Ruth Payne,
>> who takes in Lee Harvey Oswald.
>> I know.
>> And Lee Harvey Oswald's living with Ruth
Payne. and I think gets a job at the
Texas Book Depository in Texas in Dallas
through Ruth Payne
>> and then ends up, you know, maybe not
being the lone gunman, but you know,
attempting JFK's life. And in her home,
she opens her door to some refugees, you
know, people who are recent immigrants
from Russia. Lee Harvey Oswald and his
wife Marina
>> and their kids.
>> Whoa. So they're living with Ruth Payne
in this house in Texas.
>> So
>> she gets him the job at the Texas School
Book Depository.
>> And so it's these these weird
entanglements where and the nine
believed themselves to be sort of agents
or sorry the the the group in the seance
believed themselves to be agents of
these extraterrestrials, right? Like to
be acting on their behalf. And so like
and I know Purich would stop at airports
and try and meditate because he thought
he would
>> be bringing about world peace and that
the nine would speak to him through his
watch and stuff. And so I wonder
sometimes
>> was it all good or was it bad? I mean I
don't think you know the assassination
of JFK was good. He seemed like a great
man who was resisting really dark
forces.
>> Um so strange story.
>> I just want to hear something really
strange about that. Yeah. So,
>> legend has it that in 1943, the Navy
tried to teleport a ship in what's now
known as the Philadelphia experiment,
and it kind of worked. It disappeared,
reappeared, and then half the crew got
atomically fused into the ship's walls.
Others just vanished. No one was where
they were supposed to be. Talk about a
breakdown in communication. And you know
who was leading the whole project? My
favorite, the mid-century anti-gravity
inventor Thomas Townsen Brown, who
literally had a nervous breakdown that
year due to the very poor communication
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>> Want to hear something really strange
about that? Oh, yeah. Uh, so
>> it's why you're here.
>> This Yeah. This this woman who I got to
know very well, uh, who's in the film,
she was Puhar's assistant
>> for for many years and starting in I
think ' 63. And basically, she worked
with him I think until like the the the
mid 80s. And she she's amazing. She's
from Hawaii. Um, very nice woman, but
she met him in New York. She was a
student at NYU and Boohar is working um,
this is a whole other thing to get into,
but he had started his company there
called Intellect Corporation, but she
started as sort of an intern at this
company, Intellect, which was basically
a biomed research company. Uh, we can
get into that, but basically she told me
a story that um she was working at
Intellect the day JFK was assassinated
and that these men in suits she says
came into the offices, went into Bhar's
office, said something to him that
seemed very serious and they left and
she said the whole rest of the day Bhar
was out of sorts.
what this could be as simple as you know
how horrible that this the president was
shot or it could have been something
else but she was very specific to say I
remember this happening it was very
strange but to finish the nine thing
basically in in the round table ends in
57 I think right
>> meaning they they for whatever reason I
mean I think I know the reason basically
he moved on to intellect which I can
talk about But he, you know, he claims,
oh, that we ran out of funding. The
benefactors lost interest and it and it
shut down, but all the while he was
getting money from the army. I mean,
there's records of that,
>> but um so the nine stopped
allegedly. And I think Lenda I think
talks about this but a lot of like the
early con nine related conspiracies
start around that time too with this
idea that it was a scop or that it was
this early psychological warfare
experiment where can we get you know
certain groups of people to believe in
something and to what extent and a lot
of people think that that was like
>> the nine they think that's all it was
They think any sort of like real
channeling or any is just, you know, is
is fake and that it was all set up as
this sort of psychological warfare
experiment, which, you know, there's
>> there's reasons to to think that that
could be true. But, um, that's where a
lot of that,
>> you know, starts.
>> You know, I think that's possible, but
you think about like what when did MK
Ultra start? It was probably there's
probably stuff going on before 52, but
really the Korean War is like when you
know conventionally it's it's dated to
and the idea that they were that
sophisticated at the very start of MK
Ultra where they could convince these
sort of elite members of society that
they were in touch with these specific
extraterrestrial beings and that that
that those extraterrestrial beings were
constructing
Faraday chambers that were able to like
make the messages they received more
effective. it like like this elaborate
sort of magic trick that that seems a
little beyond the pale to me.
>> But um that's
>> it's a big mystery. I mean even like
I'll admit it the years and years I
research I mean even I don't know like a
lot of people I talk to who are
interested in this stuff and know about
the film and so forth like they think
that I know
>> all the answers and like I I even I wish
I did
>> and it's not like I'm hiding something
because I'm worried that you know I'm
going to be a monitor. I just don't, you
know, I know what was in the archives.
And a lot of the film for me was like,
okay, what
>> what do we know? What is a fact and
let's like work off that? And so it was
really just like, okay, here's the
transcripts. Here's what they were
saying.
>> Speaking of what are the facts, we have
to get back to this Intellect thing.
Yeah. Like, so you're is the implication
of this story that this company had
something to do with the assassination
of JFK or like were these men in tweed
suits raiding the office, the CIA, and
were they they thinking that Intellect
had something to do with this or
so, um,
so Bhar, yeah, he leaves the round
table, he moves to New York City or he
moves to Austining. A lot of people know
this in relation to Bhart because he
lived there most of his life.
>> Upstate New York.
>> Yeah. It's uh you know an hour on the
train north of uh the city you know
Madman of course the show like I didn't
even realize all the characters they all
live in Austining like don I guess
there's I I remember watching it but
there's some reference like they live in
Austining so it's a very you know
wealthy area and all of a sudden Bharic
has what's considered like a mansion
there basically huge house
>> he moves there he tells his family that
basically he just got this contract to
study the b basically like more of what
was going on at the round table
foundation but there were specific
people who needed him to move to New
York so they moved there. I mean his
family life is a whole different thing.
He he had um his his wife sadly
committed suicide around this time
really.
>> Yeah. He was very like you know
distraught about that and and
>> what happened
>> I received a grim call from Jenny's
father.
Jenny had quietly leapt from the
hospital roof into eternity.
I wept for Jenny.
I wept for my failure to keep her
healthy and happy.
I wept for our three daughters who would
never know a normal upbringing.
I cried out to God in crushing despair.
>> But so they moved to New York. He starts
this company called Intellect.
He gets a Annie Jacobson helped figure
this out. He gets a um a grant for
$300,000,
which at the time would have been like
at least a million dollars or more, um
from the Atomic Energy Commission, which
is strange. And we have all the
documents that we found that prove that
they went and visited him. and they gave
him this grant. So he starts this thing,
Intellectron, which is basically labeled
as a a biomemed research company. So
they have an office in Hell's Kitchen.
And
again with Puharic, I just it's it's I
have to to stress like there was always
these instances in his life. this one
being the the really the first, but it
was sort of the round table two where
like all of a sudden he just has this
company and this and and these employees
and this fun, you know, all of a sudden
it's just, you know, kind of expensive
to have a big office in New York City
and all this and all this
state-of-the-art at the time, electronic
equipment and
>> well, it sounds like in classic
intelligence world front sort of stuff.
>> Well, how does Epstein have a huge hedge
fund?
>> Oh, yeah. He just always had and it's
always this company
>> and basically in this was early 60s now
62 63
>> this is when he starts the the hearing
experiments where basically
he
claims that
deaf uh people would come into the
office and they would do research on
them. And basically they designed a a
device which would enable deaf people to
to to hear basically by emitting a
certain frequency that would somehow
bypass like the the normal way we hear
and go directly to the hearing center in
the brain. And it was this breakthrough
medical discovery which you know go
figure is completely quiet. No one no
one ever hears about it.
>> Yeah. Um, but that's when he first
starts this whole, you know, radio
frequency stuff, voices in the head kind
of stuff, which again was under this,
you know, we're researching on deaf
people. We're we're doing this, you
know, in a medical sense. We're helping
people. But that's when these, you know,
men in suits show up. That's when once
again he's getting contracts from uh
Navy uh CIA
again almost everyone that was involved
at the round table was back in this
intellect situation with him. And so
that I think the connection I mean I
don't want to just jump to conclusions
but I think what I've often thought with
this JFK thing and why to Melanie his
assistant seemed like such a big deal is
that it may have had some tiein with a
mind control sort of like a Sirhan
sirhan situation
with Lee Harvey Oz. I mean, I know
that's like a pretty crazy bold claim,
but that's that's just what I've
thought.
>> It's not
>> because um they were doing that. This is
we're talking and again this is
something I don't think a lot of people
know and I think people don't realize a
lot of that MK Ultra stuff happened much
earlier but they were doing this work in
' 6263 of like send basically sending
messages to to people's uh heads you
know and and we have footage we have I
mean it's it's real the people from the
Atomic Energy Commission write very
clearly in letters we found like we went
Annie Jacobson talks about it I think in
her book like one of the guys is like I
don't believe you you know test me and
just and and and did the test on himself
and it worked and then it it goes it
goes dark and intellect
closes and all of a sudden it's on to
the next sort of you know mysterious
company
>> Deep Black program or yeah some other
front company that's really really
trippy is there any explicit connection
connection between Lee Harvey Oswald and
Intellect or that sort of speculation on
your part? I haven't looked, but I just
think, you know, if you want to go
there, it's like like Lenda says, the
whole connection there at the round
table and then this weird incident where
they seem to make a big deal about
telling him about the assassination at
that exact time, that exact year.
They're researching ways to to be able
to send messages to someone's mind to do
something specific, Manurion, candidate,
etc., etc. Apparently Dulles did not
want the fact that Ruth Payne had
actually been at the summer house or
whatever. I think that summer right
before JFK was assassinated. Yeah. He he
did not want you know that at all on
record. I think Mary Bankraftoft like
started to talk about it and he like you
know
>> he kind of acted like he didn't know
what was going on when like you know he
he would have reacted earnestly if if if
he hadn't. He clearly did know what was
going on. Obviously, Dulles was
probably, you know, among a very short
list of people. If you, you know, the
intersection of capabilities, motivation
to to take out JFK, Dulles has to be on
anybody's short list. And then the
further kind of steelman there maybe
being a there there.
>> We know that Jack Ruby was an MK Ultra
patient. I mean like 95% you know like
you have letters between Jolly West and
Sydney Gotautle who's definitely the
kind of architect of MK Ultra you know
and and Jolly West was you know UCLA
psychiatry but clearly very involved in
Operation Midnight Climax and maybe
brainwashed Charles Manson and he sees
Jack Ruby who never remembers killing
Lee Harvey Oswald in his jail cell alone
no cameras comes back comes out and says
is uh Jack Ruby has had a psych
psychiatric break. And then Jack Ruby,
you know, who was fully lucid but just
didn't remember having shot Learvey
Oswald
talks about Jews dying outside of his
cell and just like literally cracks.
>> Um so very very strange, you know,
possible connections.
>> Well, the other really strange thing at
this time, um was that Paris was working
with someone named Jose Delgado. who you
probably might know who that is.
>> Delgado, an old friend of mine, a
brilliant researcher from Spain,
implanted radio receivers in the heads
of bulls.
>> Delgato has remote control of the
animal.
>> Do you realize the fantastic
possibilities if from the outside we
could modify the inside? Could we give
messages to the inside?
>> He was uh a guy from Spain. He was a
researcher. uh he was involved with a
lot of this sort of mind stuff in the '
60s late 50s60s but I think he's mostly
known as somebody who uh did experiments
with implanting putting an implant in
the head of a bull and basically being
able to remote control a bull and
basically say go this stop go left go
right and he he was able to do it
there's literally footage of of the
experiment happening uh and Puharic we
later found out was was close friends as
Bhar says himself with Delgado. We found
letters between the two of them uh
during this time and it was nothing too
sinister. It was mostly like, "Hey, I'm
going to go to this conference. Are you
going to be there?" But they clearly
were close. I mean, there's some people
I met during the process of this who
were like, "Don't don't even go there
and don't talk about the connection you
had with Delgato." But, you know, I I
was interested to
>> No, it's fascinating. You have a guy
who's being able to pacify a bull and
play the bull like a video game. And
that clearly was the heir to MK Ultra,
which was mostly sodium pentathol, LSD,
that sort of thing. It's chemical based.
at if if if in the early 60s we had
chips that could control animals and you
had heirs to MK Ultra like MK of Otton
which were done I believe at the Science
and Engineering Institute um in the
Northeast as well.
>> Yeah.
>> It's like of course you know we're going
to be way more advanced on that stuff
now. It's it's creepy to think about.
It's one of those things you don't even
want to think about it cuz
>> the second you do think about it, you
get into reality being far weirder than
we could ever imagine.
>> So yeah, if you think, okay, they're
putting an implant in the head of a
bull, like you say, basically remote
controlling the thing, why wouldn't you
try to do that to a human being? I mean,
why why wouldn't you? And I think that
was going on at Intellect. I mean, I I'm
I'm sure of it because there's just way
too many there's way too many
connections. I don't have a document
that says here's the experiment we did,
but um that whole decade of the 60s was
such a a odd decade for Bhari was so
like quiet like all there's all these
records of the round table, you know,
tapes, photos, everything. And all of a
sudden you get to the 60s, it's like ve
nothing really. very little
documentation,
very little, you know, photographic
evidence of what he was up to and all of
a sudden in the 70s, boom, picks back
up. There's 100 photo. So, it's very
mysterious decade. And it was just, it
just so happened to be when he had this
company in Electron.
>> Yeah. with these very odd connections.
Delgado, the
>> I think it's becoming super clear that
>> and the other thing too, yeah,
>> not to cut you off, is I I've
with all this stuff in this film, I've
gone to like the ends of the earth to
try to track down any absolutely
nothing. This place never existed in
Electron. You would not find the only
thing I ever found was there's a guy uh
pretty interesting guy actually. His
name is Beardsley Graham. He was uh
involved uh in NASA in the 60s early
70s, colleague of Bhares, but he was
like I guess
he was somehow involved in Intellecton
as like an outside consultant or
something and in his archives at uh
Berkeley. There was like a a couple
documents that had, you know, an
electron letter head and it was like
correspondence and that was like the
only thing I could find and even in that
it was nothing revealing. It was again
it was just like records and sort of
like you know financial records which
again didn't point to anything. Yeah.
>> You know so so there's just this place
did not exist
>> but it very much did.
>> Crazy. It very much did. Well, it's I
mean now I I feel like it's one of these
things that's slowly shifting, you know,
and I I think more and more people are
going to start to recognize the fact
that MK Ultra had a role not only in the
JFK assassination but in the RFK
assassination. You mentioned Sir Han
Sirhan who had written in his diary
right before he shot RFK
just like over and over. It was like
some neural linguistic programming was
coming through him. To this day does not
remember having shot him. He's like, you
know, I must kill him, must kill, you
know, sort of thing. Um, and you have
RFK Jr. now who's head of the FDA.
>> He himself has gone deep on his father's
death. I think he was 14 at the time.
And I think he recognizes that he was
actually shot from the back and not from
the front. So there was this other
gunman again just like JFK. I think he
thinks that, you know, MK Ultra was
involved. You know, this guy William
Jennings Bryan, not to be confused with
the 1890s William Jennings Bryan. Um,
>> was this kind of mysterious, deep, stady
figure who I believe was tight with Sir
Han Sirhan. And
>> um, so I, you know, I I think these
things are going to start to come out
that uh, MK Ultra was far more pervasive
than than we ever realized. And there's
even a book called I don't know if you
know about this book, The Controllers by
Martin Cannon.
>> Yeah. Yeah. He mentions uh Buhar and
that.
>> So let's This book is insane. What's the
What's the thesis of this book?
>> Uh
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>> What's the What's the thesis of this
book?
>> Uh, it's basically about this idea of
the the fabrication of alien abductions,
right? That's at least a big part of it.
>> Some of them being chip implantations
done basically for MK Ultra purposes.
>> Yeah. and people being tricked into
saying, "Oh, like this is your guardian
angel or whatever." And you know,
>> there's a whole thing.
We can go uh we can get to that later.
But the whole electron thing basically
to to cap that off, it was um yeah, one
of many of these these very to me it
became very obvious fronts.
>> I mean, there's just no question about
it, you know, um that that he had. And
they were doing all that type of
experimentation. Again, there's footage
of them doing um an experiment on a
woman. There's no sound, but it's
obvious what's happening. You can see,
you know, she's in the other room. She's
behind a wall there in the other room.
He has his device that he invented in
the early '60s called the TD 100, which
I've told you about. And this basically
enables like a certain frequency to be
sent to somebody. And you know, it's
kind of like a a a situation where if
you're exposed to this frequency, it's
at a certain wavelength that only you
can hear and anyone else around you
can't can't hear. And this kind of ties
into what he was doing later in the 70s,
but they're doing an experiment on on a
woman using this, and it's very clear
what's happening, and it's very clear
it's working. This was this was like
Neurolink basically.
>> And you could you could you could send
or implant thoughts.
>> Yeah.
>> To a person.
>> Yeah.
>> And that's crazy. And so how exactly did
it work? It played a tone and then you
would
>> Well, there's two things. One of the
things he invented back then too, which
again was Puhar says himself was
classified and you've probably heard of
this as the um tooth implant. a device
could be inserted into one of your back
mers that acted as a transducer that
could send signals across the facial
nerves into the hearing centers of the
brain.
>> It took about a month of of daily
therapy and they would have their
hearing improve significantly.
>> It was extraordinary because it was a
totally new way of understanding how we
hear.
You could send signals to someone
secretly.
It had a lot of potential.
We gave a demonstration at the Pentagon.
We fitted this device to this general
and we had somebody out in the hall
broadcasting
and he said, "God damn it, I hear it.
God damn it, I hear it. The bastard did
it."
It was basically a radio receiver that
would be uh I guess at one point it was
Bare kind of says it says it as though
you could slip on some sort of thing
like on like anyone could just kind of
like slip this thing on their tooth. But
in other instances it was very specific
about it being like a like a real like
cat what do you call it? A moler or like
something that would really be put on
your tooth and that would basically
>> uh be able to receive a radio signal. It
would pick it up here and it would send
it through the nerves of the face that
would basically connect to whatever in
your brain uh you register, you know,
sounds. And so so you could be again in
you could you could clearly see them
doing this and this was very short a
short distance like I said a woman right
across the the room and you can clearly
see they're they're they're able to do
it. So you can imagine if the research
continued at what length can this go?
Can this be in another town? Could it be
another state? Could it be in another
country? So that's what they were they
were experimenting with. But so the
first part of it was the tooth where you
could send the message to the the tooth
implant, hear it in the head. And the
second part was uh an offshoot of that
where basically from what I understand
you sort of just bypass the whole tooth
thing and it's a very specific radio
frequency that I guess you can't tune
into like on a normal frequency band or
radio. I mean
>> do you know what frequency?
>> No, he doesn't talk about it.
>> That that would seem to be extremely
classified would be my guess.
>> It has a lot to do with sine waves.
>> Yeah. I must I I must say again like I'm
this is not my forte like a lot of this
I stumbled into I don't but it was this
idea that again you would bypass the
tooth and the and the and the frequency
would essentially just be sent directly
to the head and be picked up in that
same area that the tooth was essentially
connecting to.
>> Yeah. Just to also substantiate what
you're saying to the audience who might
think we're crazy. Uh I mean be as early
as Beethoven, he was deaf and he used
something called bone conduction where
he would bite on to uh a conductive rod
while he was playing piano that would
bypass his ear canal and the vibrations
would literally play in his brain and so
he would like de facto be able to hear
his own playing without actually kind of
you know hearing it through his ear
canal.
>> So that is a thing. Uh there's a story
of there's a kind of apocryphal but I
think substantiated story
>> um around Lucille Ball who had just
>> I've heard about this.
>> Yeah, it's in the telepathy tapes. Yeah.
And she had gotten a tooth filling or
whatever and she's driving and she
starts to hear the radio in her head
because she still has some metal in her
teeth. I think there's a story with
Puhar where some guy works at a metal
mill or something. Yeah, that was his
first um aha moment is that they got a
mental patient, a guy who claimed he was
hearing voices, but his family's
convinced he's he's, you know, sane, and
we're worried because they want to put
him in a mental hospital, and we don't
want that to happen. So, you know, can
you check him out? So, they they bring
him in, they get to know him, and yeah,
he says, "Okay, I work at this metal
factory where I guess it basically is
like grinding metal pieces and and this
kind of thing." Annie Jacobson talks
about it too in her book.
>> Puharaj's theory was that this metal
dust had somehow collected on his teeth
and in essence acted like a radio
antenna. We found out he was tuned the
station W in New York
>> and they put the mental patient in their
Faraday cage which blocks out all
electronic signals
and the mental patient suddenly
is no longer hearing voices is like
perfectly sane.
>> And sure enough soon as we locked the
door the sound ceased. Open the door the
sound would come on. That's pretty
remarkable of Puharic to think that all
through and to test in the laboratory.
>> And that kicked off like all of this
research where it said okay well if
that's possible like what else is
possible with that basic idea that
that's you know real.
>> Yeah. Again, if you can bypass the ear
canal with vibration,
whatever is processing the audio
ultimately in the brain, we know that
you can turn molecular mass into
frequency. Everything has a quote
unquote resonant frequency. Yeah,
>> this sounds woowoo, but what I just said
is fact.
>> Yeah.
>> Could you then use some sort of
electromagnetic, you know, radio wave or
some wave that connects directly to the
brain? And that kind of gets into freaky
territory because you end up in sort of
psychic warfare, you know, that's
ubiquitous or whatever and widespread.
Like it's kind of weird to think about.
>> But I mean, if you're saying that was
possible back then, it's just wild. And
then then you mentioned sine waves.
>> I just interviewed a guy named Dan
Sherman.
>> Yeah.
>> And you texted me when you saw the
interview because you said it you felt
like it kind of comported with a lot of
the stuff you had been studying around
>> Yeah. Yeah, Buhar. If Bhar is doing this
stuff in the '60s,
>> then it kind of makes me believe that
Sherman stuff a whole lot more, which
was happening in the early 90s.
>> Yeah.
>> Around messages he's downloading. But it
maybe it does beget the question, you
know, is the Sherman stuff genuinely,
you know, extraterrestrial
or were people beaming messages that
were extraterrestrial to test the
veracity of the messaging or whatever
through him? And I don't know, you know,
I don't know the answer to that
question. I I don't think he was lying
and I think the program is real. The
genesis of it was in 1947 we came in
contact with an alien species and in
1960 they started a a project. It was
called project preserve destiny and um
it was designed to
genetically manage fetuses, human
fetuses so that they would have the
heightened ability to do this particular
thing that I was going to school for.
And he said, "I'm going to play a tone
and I want you to mentally hum that
tone." And he said that you will
eventually feel a connection. The line
will change.
>> When I saw the sine wave move,
I went, "Oh, okay. Well, there's a
mental disconnect there that that's not
supposed to be happening. That this is
not this is not possible."
>> Yeah. Do you think that it was kind of a
development from um you know what you
were looking into with Puhari?
>> I'd have to imagine it was and that's
always the question. You know,
>> you said there are a lot of sine waves.
He literally says I had to flatten a
sine wave
>> when I saw the the the sine wave move.
It it is like it came into focus this
thing that that I was doing in my head.
>> That's why I that's why I reached out
because again like for me a lot of this
was okay I have all this information.
I'm not a you know I'm not a a
physicist. I'm not most of this stuff,
but I'd have to imagine it's connected
because it um Bhar the way this machine
worked as well had something to do with
specific sine waves. Very very specific.
You know, he was always talking about
sine waves. And so I just I can't
imagine that that wasn't some sort of
early
interpretation of of what what he was
talking about.
>> And you have this machine that you like
where you like you're matching tones and
stuff. I mean that sounds exactly like
Sure.
>> It's all tone. It's all tones. And then
the thing with the machine is again um
and like you said sounding crazy like
for a long time making this film, you
know, like I had to really grapple with
like that a lot because I knew what I
was hearing and and sort of not so much
researching. A lot of stuff we got were
like tapes of these experiments. So it's
not just like I'm reading a report,
you're hearing it. So I'm hearing,
you know, these channeling sessions. I'm
hearing these experiments he's doing in
Electron. And you know, you can just
tell something's going on, something
strange. And so you're right. I mean, I
think like if that was happening in '
60s, 61, 62, I mean,
I don't know. Oh, and this gets
transitions into the Erie Geller stuff
which I believe is very much involved in
that same sort of research.
>> Um, but
>> yeah.
>> Well, I think um
it's my belief that uh Geller was was
sort of like a a mind control guinea pig
in a way. M
>> uh there's a lot of context that would
that would prove that that was what his
sort of role was in this whole
>> explain story.
>> That's that's fascinating. Well, he um
so basically Puharic uh in the 60s we
had intellect and the thing is too with
this device he invented the TD 100 it
was called which is called trans dder
dermal 100 but um again this was
supposed to be this breakthrough you
know medical device where where people
who are deaf can can hear you know the
think about what we could do with this
but it just goes like again he never
talks about it. No, no one in his
family, oh yeah, I wonder what ever
happened to that. Like you would think
that with such an amazing discovery,
like something would have come of it. It
was just like went went dark basically.
Probably around 68. Um he never talks
about it again. Only way later in his
life. He never ever talks about it. Of
course, we learned he was using it with
the space kids years later that nobody
knew about that. But um so he's the he's
coming off the tail end of all the inron
stuff, right?
right when he meets Geller. Like
literally, it was 1970 is when he first
hears about Geller goes to Israel.
Intellect is still happening then. I
mean, from what I understand, like it
was still very much, you know, an
operating company. So, he's going to
Israel to meet Uri Geller while he's
still very much involved in the research
of essentially sending messages to
people. and he gets to Israel. He
discovers Erie Geller. I mean, I think a
lot of people know the story, but you
know, Geller was was allegedly this very
uh amazing psychic guy who could bend
bend spoons with his mind and read
people's minds and do all sorts of
things like that. He could like
uh hover his hand over a watch and the
and it would uh the hands would move and
and all these kinds of things. And so,
>> do you believe he could actually do
those things or do you think that was
stage magic or
>> Um, all I can say about that is
he did bend a spoon for us when we did
the interview and I don't know how he
did it.
>> Whoa.
>> So, that's all I can say. It could have
been a trick
>> and you
>> uh but I can't to this day figure out
how he did it.
>> You know the easy debunks on things like
that or Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So all I can
say is like yeah it could have been a
trick but it was definitely kind of
strange and cool and he did do it but um
he so Bhar, you know again the story
goes Bhar was kind of smitten with with
Geller and oh my god this guy's you know
an amazing psychic. I'm I'm interested
in psychic phenomena. I want to study
him. So he brings him back. But what
people don't really know uh unless they
read Bharaj's book on on Uri Geller,
which is kind of like a rare book to to
come across, but he uh has this whole
episode in Israel before he even brings
him back to the United States where he
basically hypnotizes Geller and you know
the nine come through
>> really
>> and all of a sudden after however many
years you know 53 from when Dr. Van did
it to to 71 and guess what happens? uh
he starts channeling the nine Ari Geller
and so Bharic
is you know shock apparently shocked and
you know I can't believe this is
happening you know there's all these
tape recordings we have of of this uh
going down and that kind of kickstarts
again the whole nine thing comes back
into the picture through through Uruger
and all of a sudden they're like back
you know and he's channeling them
channeling them and he's communicating
with them. But it's very strange because
Buharic, as I just said, was still very
much involved in the intellect company,
which as we know was experimenting with
being able to send voices, send thoughts
uh to people. And so one could assume
that Urri Geller was a, you know,
experiment in that way when the Nine
just so happened to reappear all those
years later. And it's also strange
because I think a lot of people know
like Geller has claimed his involvement
with Mossad and his Israeli intelligence
and all these things. There's reasons to
believe Puhar may have been a double
agent for Israel. In fact, he says he he
says it really
>> tape, but he kind of says it in a jokey
way. And so I had always just stuck to
me like, "Okay, is this a joke?"
>> Have you found any connections between
him?
>> Uh, yeah. Israel.
>> Yeah.
>> What What were the connections besides
you're a yeller, obviously? Um
well he
so we did tons of like foyer uh requests
trying to trying to find stuff on him
and like basically got nothing but the
only thing we were able to get was this
big chunk of FBI documents which is
basically monitoring all of his
movements in Israel literally p page
after page oh he just got here he's
leaving he picked this bag up he did you
know in the exact years he's um he's
going there to see Geller
>> so that that there's is that
>> and then um multiple people who knew him
who never really said anything until
much later in their lives um told me
that he he was MSAD.
>> Again, I there's I don't have a document
or something that that that proves this.
Um, and then Puhar also
mentions in a uh letter he was writing
to uh there's a good friend of his, this
woman who kind of helped him with
bookkeeping and stuff and she was like
his closest confidant and he would write
these letters to her all the time. It
was very clear that they were close. you
know, he spoke with her very differently
than other people, but he um basically
admitted to being part of a Israeli
US um mine, you know, mind control
program that was happening at Aberdine
proving grounds, which is, you know, is
an is an army base. And
I read that and you know, again, what
what do you make of it? It's either true
or for some reason he's making it up. I
don't know why.
>> It's fascinating.
>> So, so he wrote that and then in this
tape um he he kind of jokingly says,
"Oh, I'm a I'm I'm a I'm a double agent
>> uh for for the Israelis." And and he
also was always there, you know, that's
the other thing. Like, yes, he went
>> to to to investigate Geller,
>> but you know, he was even through the
80s, like well after him and Geller kind
of parted ways, he's always going there.
um on a lot of the channeling tapes that
are happening in the 70s with the space
kids, he's he's referring by name to
Israeli generals.
>> This one guy, Aharon Yariv, who was I
think the head of army intelligence very
you can look him up. I mean he was
constantly can should we uh give this
information to Yariv always referring to
him and other people
>> um high up there. So, a lot of red
flags. Nothing. Again, no concrete,
>> you know, document or something, but uh
it's strange. And
>> I I don't know. I mean, again, that's
something like after all this time, I'm
still thinking, okay, what what was
really going on there? You know,
>> fascinating, man. What what do you think
when when he goes to Israel initially to
see Geller in 1971
and he
Geller's kind of channeling the Nine
again? Is it like the Nine are somehow
like he has a protocol to like summon
these specific nine extraterrestrial
beings? Is it this cynical hypnotic
technique that he's doing where he's
implanting this idea of nine
extraterrestrial beings or what do you
think that is? Is he is he calling in
something that exists in reality these
nine you know entities or is he creating
those entities synthetically
f first of all just to quickly mention
like this this idea that Bharat is very
um there's always two stories right so
when he went to Israel for the first
time in some lecture uh we have he said
oh you know there was this parasychology
foundation and they wanted me to go so
they scraped some money together and I
they I was able to get a plane ticket. I
went to I went to Tel Aviv and then
that's how I got there. Right. And then
Geller himself said, "Oh yeah, no, he he
was sent by the CIA like directly. He he
was consulting for CIA. That's why he
came." And then someone else uh close to
Bhar said, "Oh yeah, like that he was
CIA. That's why he went." But in this
lecture, in fact twice in two separate
lectures, Buhar when he he kind of tells
the story to an audience you know and he
says oh yeah they just you know bought
me a ticket this foundation. So you know
again a little thought in my mind where
I'm like okay who's
>> who's telling the truth you know yeah
>> I think it's obvious but um but with the
nine I mean so yeah it all did come from
from hypnosis that was the protocol. It
was a very, you know, your typical
countdown from a certain number. Um,
once you get there, you know, you're in
a state where they can come through. And
I do think again, like I mentioned
earlier, kind kind of having to accept
some of these
darker parts of the story. Like I do
think uh to some extent like he was
implanting this idea
>> because you can you I mean you can hear
it. I mean again this isn't like
speculation like on the tapes you can
very much hear him
saying you know is it is it the not you
know the type of like leading questions
I think that a lot of people say oh you
know you can't trust a hypnosis if
they're doing this and it was it was it
was that it was very leading questions
and are you sure it's not the nine and
oh actually yeah you're right it is and
that kind of thing but what's so
confusing is there's there's a lot of
other sessions you did where it was
Not like that at all. The complete
opposite, you know, not leading at all.
>> And the nine would still come through.
>> Yeah.
>> So that's interesting.
>> Yeah. And that always goes back to the
crux of of Huharaj of like, okay, what
was he? Yes, he believed in this stuff,
but yes, he was also involved in
>> very by his own own admittance, you
know, involved in in MK Ultra and all
these things. So it's like what?
>> Believer, master, manipulator. I mean, I
I usually clearly he was manipulative
somewhat.
>> Yeah.
>> I usually get to the end of these
questions thinking it's like a yes and
like an improv or whatever. It's it's
usually not like one neat solution kind
of explains everything away.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, one neat solution that would
explain everything away would be you can
think of the Archimedes lever of reality
itself and it's mind control, right?
Like that would explain like aliens
reverse engineer like so many things.
Mhm.
>> Um, but then you you get into like the
facts and the facts are just weirder
than you think often and it's it's like
well I actually think there might be
these other beings that come in and
certain cases he's not asking leading
questions and
>> but it's uh it's it's fascinating. He
also he isolates specific um extra low
frequency waves that he thinks are
particularly powerful as far as
implanting thoughts. Is that right?
>> Yeah. There's uh and again this was
interesting because
his uh research into you know ELF
extremely low frequency you know that
was much later like late '7s 80s he was
very involved in that but I figured out
like once again like this origin point
of the round table foundation like he
was researching this stuff back then
like this very specific extremely low
frequency that can he figured out like
penetrate the walls of a Faraday cage.
That was like the only uh you know
frequency that could do that. You know,
they went on to use that frequency with
like submarine experiments.
So that he believed was like the
frequency that could carry, you know,
audio information to somebody's
head. Uh
>> he was very concerned that the Soviets
had similar capabilities.
>> Yeah. I mean there's you know project
Pandora which started in I think the the
60s
>> which you know going back to intellect
that was right around the time this was
happening which was you know yeah the
same thing the Russians had these sort
of radio frequency weapons which which
you know they did I mean that's all pro
proven at that time I mean this is like
prehavana syndrome stuff and so
coincidentally you know at intellectron
they're doing a lot of that same stuff I
do firmly believe that that Geller was
some sort of guinea pig for these
experiments because
it it's just too many weird red flags
around this time that he meets him. And
I think and again I could be totally
wrong, but I think that there was just
this,
you know, we need to experiment on a
real, you know, human being with some of
this stuff. And again, it goes back to
this MK Ultra that, you know, LSD, you
know, giving LSD to unwitting people.
Like, at a certain point with these
kinds of experiments, you need to, you
know, do it on a real person or else
you're never going to know how someone
in, you know, the real world will react.
And I think Geller, you know, was was
part of something like this because
there's a lot of experiments they did
where um there's a story, for instance,
where Geller allegedly
uh teleported. So he was walking down
the street in New York City, 1973, I
think. He claims he's walked down the
street in New York City, gets a weird
feeling, right? All of a sudden, he
wakes up and he's in Austining, New
York, which is, you know, however 50
miles or whatever, and and he crashes
through the the screen porch. There's
footage, Super Eight movie footage of of
Bhar filming the screen porch after this
allegedly happened. It's all smashed
through, right? And Geller allegedly
winds up in Austin. He teleported
and from New York City and Puharic
claims or told Geller, "Oh yeah, this
happened. The Nine did this." Basically,
you since you were questioning their
ability and their power, they said,
"Well, we're going to do something that
will make you, you know, never question
us again." And they did this
teleportation, right? And the weird
thing is again like the length BR went
to to actually
get a you know again people don't
remember this was like7s like get a load
of film you know put it in the put it in
the camera film get the get the film
transferred and and be like hey look I
actually filmed when you right after you
flew into the window and here it is it's
it's proof. So, you know, he's he's he's
doing that. But I I that was just one
instance of me thinking like, okay, like
this is a way to get somebody to believe
that some crazy event like that really
happened. And Geller believed it. I
mean, he he talked about it. He wrote
about it. And I think later in his life,
he he he started to question everything.
And he even came out with a statement on
a radio show in like 2019 saying that
Bharic had experimented on him with with
mushrooms. Wow.
>> And had experimented extensively with
him uh uh with with hypnosis. But again,
like that story is crazy. And he and I
think it's like, okay, like if you can
get somebody to believe that they had
been teleported and sm I mean, what else
could you get someone to believe? And I
just think it was all part of that type
of experimentation. And Bhar himself way
later in his life like I said when he
starts to kind of reveal things he says
himself I was involved in a program and
my boss was the guy who did all research
with hypnosis and mind manipulation.
So you know he he was doing it and I
think a lot of the Geller stuff was just
like okay we need a guinea pig here to
to see if some of these wild ideas work
you know. So wild. I think there's a
story too that Geller tells around him
meeting Warner von Braun and Warner von
Braun taking him to his a safe that
contained some UFO artifacts maybe from
Roswell.
>> Yeah. Well, Warner von Braonn again was
um somebody close to Bhar in the 60s
specifically.
>> Really?
>> Yeah. His assistant, the same one I told
you about who made the JFK comment said,
"Yeah, he he talked to him, you know,
all the time." What?
>> So that was yet another person who was
just kind of part of his, you know,
rolodex. But yeah, I think Geller said
something to the effect of, yeah, he
showed him um some photographs of um of
yeah, something from Roswell or or
revealed facts to him and
>> I think he showed him material and I
think he felt like he had a telepathic
connection with the material.
>> Veron Brown takes me into his personal
office. There's a safe in the office. He
opens the safe. I see a piece of metal.
I've never seen such a color. Pulls it
out. It's not heavy. Says, "Uri, touch
this. Tell me what you feel." Now, I put
my hand on it and I say, "Vera, this is
not from here." He says, "You're right.
This is a piece of a UFO that crashed on
our planet."
>> Uh, it's like he he knew that it was not
from here or something like he showed it
to him and he goes, "It's not from
here." And he goes, "How did you know?"
Some, you know, some
>> It's so interesting. The other thing
too, and this goes back to the the
controllers um book,
>> a lot of the stories, and again, keep in
mind this is all pre coming to the US
going to SRRI. Everyone knows that
stuff. This is in in Tel Aviv before any
of that.
>> And he another story like this
teleportation one. They're in um the
Cyani desert. They're driving around in
a in a jeep
>> and they're they see a a UFO
>> and Geller all of a sudden I mean
Puhar's book on Geller is fun to read
you know in and of itself just because
it's like it's just like a cool crazy
sci-fi book if anything.
>> Yeah,
>> even though it's supposed to be, you
know, non-fiction. But he claims that
this UFO lands, Geller goes into like a
trance, boards the the UFO,
comes back with like a pen and said or
something like a pen and basically said,
you know, oh, the these these beings
told me to keep this cuz this will
forever be proof that I I uh you know,
went on this craft. But the same thing,
it's always like, oh, he's in a trance
before this happens, you know,
apparently. And then it's that same idea
of like he believed it and Booharic kind
of substantiated, oh yeah, you know, we
saw it land and we saw you walk on it
and
>> but then it always goes to that question
like why again you could just say oh
well they wanted to experiment with can
you get someone to believe in or just
kind of framing it around this ET UFO
thing but it's always like why why do
this you know why why was he doing this?
>> Yeah. Uh, you know, I don't because
again, there's no concrete proof. Oh,
Geller was a guinea pig. He was he was a
subject. Like, I'm just kind of putting
the pieces together. But it just seems
to me that it's like, let's take this
UFO ET framework and do these kind of
mind manipulation experiments around
that.
>> Yeah.
>> And see, you know, see what what people
can believe. And uh
>> you also get into a weird territory
where it's like
does again the MK Ultra thing just
explain everything which is like such a
dark version of the truth but it's
possible we have to entertain that.
>> Yeah.
>> Or is does MK Ultra actually converging
on a technique that the you know
extraterrestrials or NHI non-human
intelligence already has mastery over
visav its ability to like manipulate
human beings. Like I think of one of the
most credible cases for me is a guy
named Mario Woods um who is uh at
Ellsworth Air Force Base in 1977 in
South Dakota and he was a a missile
security officer and he's just like a
really upright great guy and he uh
thought you know like this sort of like
B2 bomber was like kind of winking at
him in the distance. He and his um uh
you know um teammate or whatever his
colleague Michael Johnson go in this
little jeep and they follow it. Uh they
get there and it's this like huge like
plasma orb that's glowing. It's redot
and it uh it's the size of a Walmart is
the the line he always says. It's sort
of this crazy iconic wine, you know, and
um
>> and uh he ends up nine being transported
9 miles um away from the base uh like
behind a dam. And it's like it's the
next morning. He has no idea what
happened. And all all he I think had
remembered was beings walking toward him
saying, "Do not fear. Do not fear." And
then he gets a hypnotic regression and
he realizes that, you know, possibly he
boarded a craft. And what's really
interesting is he says that after when
he gets sort of, you know, debriefed,
they check his teeth. I think he said
that like the guy checking him now said
that there was some sort of ambient
radiation in his mouth or something from
that time. Really sort of crazy. Um
yeah, that is
the tooth thing is really strange. And
there's a lot online about um there's a
story about a an individual who changed
his name
>> in fact cuz he didn't want to be
associated with this. But this was um
>> so so post Gellereller,
>> right? So so Geller uh leave basically
they they kind of split up. Geller wants
to to move on. And again, way later in
this 2019 interview, he he kind of opens
up and said, "Yeah, I was kind of like
afraid, you know, and he he he really
opens up like I didn't know what was
kind of going on and and I was
suspicious and I just wanted to get away
basically from this guy." And so he, you
know, but he was famous at that time
anyways. So he leaves. Bukharic is, you
know, trying to find another subject to
bring through the nine. He he claims. So
this is even prey Phyllis Schmer is
right around because Phyllis Schmer was
sort of the next channel that he he
discovers that that brings through the
nine. But before Phyllis, there was this
guy in Florida where Phyllis was from.
She knew this guy. He was part of a um
psychic class that she she taught. And
again, I've heard from a lot of people
that this woman Phyllis was like a legit
psychic, you know, knowing things about
people and so forth. But there's this
guy that she knew.
She introduces him to Bharic. Uh they do
a bunch of experiments. Yeah. Sure
enough, he puts him he he hypnotizes him
and he is communicating with not the
nine, but it was some other being. Can't
remember the name, but anyways, this guy
says, you know, I got really really
weird vibes, you know, etc. But lo and
behold, he wakes up one and realizes he
has a uh metal filling that he never
had. And he goes to the dentist
and says, "You know what? What's going
on here? I I didn't get this done." And
they they looked they say, "Yeah, this
was done um you know, professionally.
There's no question about it."
And oh, complete side note, the guy that
Bharic ran Intellectron with was a
dentist.
>> What?
>> That he met in the army. So this guy
discovers a a um a filling he never had.
He completely freaks out and and leaves
the the group that is Puharic Phyllis.
And and it's sad. And again, this always
comes back to this like not avoiding the
the negative stuff. Like apparently the
guy went like, you know, crazy. He he
just had like a mental breakdown.
There's a couple other people in the the
sphere of this story that this happened
to, but that's like a real story. And
the guy, you know, and he brought it up
to Booharic and they said, "Oh, you
know, we don't know what you're talking
about. We this we weren't involved with
this." Or I think you know actually I
think what they said was oh you know
this was done by the the beings you're
talk they wanted this to happen and they
they did this somehow and and so it's
very bizarre you know um but that goes
back to the I mean what you just told me
is crazy because this was early '7s so
there might be something going on with
this this two thing and you know again I
think the film does a good job of this
or I hope it does is is you know I don't
believe or and especially don't want to
believe that MK Ultra is responsible for
everything and all of this stuff cuz
there's a couple stories in Bhar's life
that you know do seem like legitimate
sort of extraordinary
encounters. For instance, um in the
late8s, uh Bhar lived in North Carolina
and he uh there was a story that a bunch
of his family was visiting, a bunch of
his cousins and uh people who, you know,
are very skeptical about all of this
stuff, skeptical of Bhar's whole world,
but some psychic uh that that night or
that day said later tonight, you know, I
just got a message that like a UFO is
going to show itself over the house. And
so we have the video, Bhar's son, Andy,
who's an awesome guy, he he did this
kind of like funny video where he
interviewed like all the people who were
there at at this family gathering and
say, you know, what do you think's going
to happen? Do you think it's going to
show up? And everyone said, "Oh, yes or
no." But that night, um, multiple people
saw this huge
>> UFO. And Andy tells the story and he
like he gets emotional telling it. And
he's a again a totally sane guy. You
know, of course his dad was Andre Buhar,
but like he's he's very normal sane guy.
And he said, "Yeah, of course, you know,
the camera wasn't out cuz it was much
later in the night." And again, pre
iPhone, of course, you know, you got to
run in and grab this bulky VHS
camcorder. But apparently,
>> like him, that Parch's son, and two or
three of the cousins all saw this huge
thing is silently hovered over.
>> So wild. and that and and his son again
very emotionally says like that was the
moment I said okay like I I believe in
in this stuff and and I believe in in in
things my dad did and he just had a very
emotional reaction uh to that moment.
So, it's stories like that where I go,
okay, well,
you know, Par isn't running some MK
Ultra experiment on his family, you
know, decades after
>> all this stuff. So, so yeah, I don't
want to put this idea out there that,
>> you know, I I think that way. I mean,
again, it's just there's too many red
flags in his story that point to his
involvement. Then there's that story
where even his cousin who didn't want to
be interviewed or whatever, but I did
talk to him and he was like, "Yeah, that
happened." You know,
>> well, I think there's something. It's
like everybody sees the world through a
perceptual prism or container. And I'm
sure with his hypnotic techniques and
with MK Ultra and with implants and all
these things, you can break that
container and then probably
intentionally shade or manipulate what
people experience.
>> Yeah. But the idea that there's nothing
outside of that perceptual prism that
involves other entities between man and
God or you know whatever your
metaphysical beliefs are I think also
>> involves some sort of hubris like you
know you can you can have both
>> but um it's this is I mean
>> this is one of the craziest interviews
I've ever done man this is crazy I mean
I'm I feel like shocked like listening
to all these f and I'm just thinking as
you're talking about Puharaj's son and
this UFO showing Uh um what was N cuz I
think of 1952 as the you know DC flyover
Washington invasion like maybe the most
intense
uh UFO showing in United States history
as far as mass media covering it,
>> people seeing things. You know, I
actually recently met a witness from
1952 and and and he was pretty amazing
and he he remembers it and stuff. He's
one of the probably last living
witnesses.
>> Um that's amazing. Yeah. But do do you
think that had anything to do with the
seance? Because I think of the seance
with, you know, the original channeling
of the nine.
>> It was 52.
>> Do you know what month?
>> Uh, it was it was um
New Year's Eve.
>> Okay. Well, I mean, it was before then
because the so the the again, I don't
want to engage in any sort of, you know,
selection bias here, but July 1952 was
when
>> it was
>> the things showed up. And so,
>> but a lot of that early channeling with
Van that was all, you know, 52.
>> Interesting.
>> Yeah. Into 53. I mean, it could have
been and I told you like he he wrote in
his journals about these orbs and one of
the psych psychics would say, you know,
go outside tonight and you're going to
see an orbs. You know,
>> well, every every time I want to get
away from like the occult having to do
with UFOs, it's like it's just so
obviously does have everything to do and
there's there's even a group called the
Borderland Society, which was
Borderland. Well, which one?
>> The Borderlands research.
>> Yeah, Hearts was very involved in that.
In fact, a lot of the recordings we
have, not a lot, but some of them came
from from them. They were really they
were they had a bunch of stuff saved
actually.
>> So, there's a really amazing like kind
of nuts and bolts UFO researcher who I
think did some software stuff for
SpaceX. His name is Richard Geldrich and
he he uh has uncovered like a couple of
UFO either crashes or appearances where
the Borderland society knew about these
UFO appearances before the military did
before the army before the Air Force.
>> So, and then you have, you know, this
1933 magenta crash which it seems like
is getting increasingly corroborated.
David Grush, Harold Malgrren both talk
about it
>> and
Hugh Angleton and James Jesus Angleton
were there and you know maybe there's
some occult stuff going on there
>> with the Knights of Malta, right? You
know, who knows? But
>> I know Bart is a master mason.
>> He was.
>> Yeah.
>> Interesting. And um he tells a story uh
in a lecture much later in his life
about how he was always approached by
these you know what he would call kind
of dark occult groups and and societies
and people trying to like get him to to
join and he he didn't want anything to
do with it and that kind of thing. Well,
Wernner von Braun was also, I believe, a
Freemason and he had gone through all
these weird neopagan rituals as part of
the German space program. He was also
close with Walt Disney and I think there
they made a little movie together and
there's some Freemasonic symbolism
there. There's Launchpad 33 in real life
that he sort of created. And then
>> uh my buddy Danny Jones just did an
interview with one of the last living
Apollo astronauts, Charlie Duke, and the
number one moonlanding hoaxer person,
Bart Cyrell. And Danny on the phone with
me is like, "Dude, I'm not sure that the
early astronauts weren't MK Ultra." And
it's weird, you know, and it's like you
have, you know, a picture of Jolly West
on the set of 2001
>> Space Odyssey. You have, you know,
>> there is.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think I did hear
about that.
>> Yeah. Yeah. And so
>> that's insane.
>> It is insane. It is insane. And and then
you have these, you know, it's like the
Neil Armstrong looking like, you know,
he's in a hostage video. Joe Rogan
describes it like that,
>> you know, um after he comes back from
the moon.
>> And so you have to wonder if there's
some sort of like weird, you know, and
if Pu I didn't know Puh Haraj knew
Warner von Braun. You have the one of
the MK Ultra architects
>> in touch with the head of the American
Space Corp. It's weird.
>> Well, the other thing too with the the
NASA connection with Bhar is again in
the 60s um he was doing like a ton of
like contract work for all sorts of um
different agencies. But so this is
actually in newspaper articles we found,
but they were doing like telepathy uh
experiments with with astronauts and and
Puhar claims this. I've never heard it.
We don't have the tape, but he claims
that they before they went to the moon,
right? They didn't know the surface of
the moon, what it would would be like
really. So, they were saying, "Okay, how
can we land a craft? We don't could it
be hot? Is it going to is it cold? Is it
uh is it uh spike?" Whatever. So, he he
claims that they send remote viewers to
the moon to get a picture of like what
it would be like. uh so they would feel
comfortable with like sending whatever
you know if if they went to to to
send stuff there and he says yeah you
know somewhere in the NASA archives I'm
sure there's the tapes we did where we
recorded this psychic kind of remote
viewing the moon and and he he and he
had the contracts from NASA like we
don't we have one that doesn't say that
but he clearly you know worked with them
we have we have documentation of that
>> didn't NASA also have a camp around with
space children or whatever. Psychic
space.
>> Yeah, I've heard a lot about that. Um,
but I don't I don't know much about
that. I mean, I know about obviously
Bhar is we can get into that, but
>> yeah, I've heard a lot about that that
there in the late60s there was some
somewhere in Florida there was like a
NASA thing with kids, but I I honestly I
don't know.
>> I think Gordon Cooper might talk about
that.
>> Oh, dude, Gordon Cooper was very
involved with Bhar. Uh
>> so this is one of the this is a guy who
spent longer in the earth's orbit you
know in space than anyone prior to him
>> in the late 50s and
>> he went to Austining like many times and
in his book he writes about um going
there seeing experiments with the
Faraday cage seeing the space kids um
yeah
>> why was he so interested I mean why was
a NASA astronaut interested in psychic
research Um, I don't know. I mean, well,
I think C, Gordon Cooper, I mean, didn't
he have some UFO uh stories or
experiences or at least he was open to
talking about that stuff?
>> We had some some kind of craft flying
overhead at pretty good altitude and
flying the same kind of formation we fly
in our fighters.
>> Were they planes? I mean, what?
>> Well, it turns out they didn't have
wings. They were saucer shaped and we
never couldn't get as high or as fast as
they were. So to really positively
identify them, but they were metallic
looking and saucer in shape.
>> So he was definitely like in interested
in this stuff and and um yeah, so he
went up there. Everyone went up there. I
mean, the whole Gene Rodenberry thing is
crazy.
>> Yeah. So the creator of Star Trek.
>> Yeah. So So that's like something I read
about and you know, I thought, "Oh,
that's interesting." But in Puhar's
archive, sure enough, is the tape that
no one's ever heard of this session that
is kind of like crazy to to to be in
possession of, but basically they would
do these kind of roundtlesesque
uh channelings where like back then
these prominent people at the time we're
now in mid70s would come there, spend
time there and they would do these
sessions and Gene Rodenberry went up a
And he makes mention on this one tape
recording that like you know he says
like like I've said many times in the
past which would indicate that this
wasn't the first time he was a part of
like a channeling session with them but
yeah we have the tape where it was um
Rodenberry Puharic and Phyllis Schmer
was the channel the channeler and you
know she he he does his thing he he
hypnotically regresses her. um she goes
into uh a trance. She starts channeling
the nine and Rodenberry is there and
it's like an hour or two hours of him
asking questions about
>> and that becomes the plot of Star Trek
or
>> Well, I wouldn't say the plot of Star
Trek had started. I think it would I
think people think of Deep Space 9.
>> Uhhuh. which that came out post these
sessions
>> and um that you know of course nine and
then there's a character in deep space 9
who's called Venade
>> just like the early nine channeler so
there's no question like that that's
connected and they actually wrote uh I
have it and um I don't know what will
ever come of it it's a it's a long story
but Gene Rodenberry wrote a script
called the nine and it's all about his
he changed the names and locations and
the whole premise is his experience of
working with Bharic and Phyllis
channeling the nine and we have an
original copy of it and it's like
amazing and from what we understand like
Rodenberry at the time was going through
a lot with like I guess he was like
drinking a lot and I don't know all the
specifics but it just like it you know
as as stuff in the in the movie industry
does it fell apart or whatever and and
it never happened. But uh he was moved
enough to write a whole, you know, 130
page script about about his experience
and it's called the nine.
>> So trippy.
>> Yeah.
>> And you have
>> So we should make it maybe. I mean
>> Yeah. There you go. Yeah. Yeah. You have
hit Greg up if you're interested
>> there. I mean, you also, you know, think
about the Star Trek you did with the,
you know, the Galactic Federation.
>> Yeah.
>> That's mentioned in a couple of realw
world contexts, too. One of which being
um you have Himeshed
>> who would, you know, has won multiple
the highest, you know, national security
awards in Israel is basically the uh
founder of their space program and their
their equivalent of space force and was,
I think, head of it for decades. Yeah.
>> And he just writes this autobiography
where he talks about the Galactic
Federation.
>> Yeah.
>> And so do you think there's something
like more real going on that in in that
like the heads of various nation state
space programs are aware of here?
>> Uh perhaps. Yeah.
>> Does he mention anything about the nine
too or
>> No, I thought maybe he Okay.
>> Not specifically.
>> Okay. But um the other weird connection
to um Israel Bhar and everything was uh
he was close with its Bentoff.
>> Oh yeah.
>> Who's you know a really interesting guy.
Um there's some videos on YouTube of
him. He's kind of like the Israeli
Puharic. He he kind of looks like him
and you know they have the same vibe
going on. But they were they were good
friends. Uh I don't know the specifics
of how they met. Apparently, uh, Bento
was, you know, instrumental in hooking
up, uh, Puharic with Geller. I don't
know the truth to that, but, um, well,
they definitely knew each other because
there's photographs of Geller, Puharic,
and Bento in an apartment in Tel Aviv
together. But, you know, Bento is
interesting because he worked for
Israeli intelligence. I mean, that's
that's a fact. And they and Bhar was
again like I said going to Israel a lot
at that time and he was always tape
recording their conversations like him
and Bento would sit around like you and
I are right now and they would record
all their conversations which you know
is not weird necessarily but also you
know why would you do that and then save
the cassette tapes decades later. So,
you know, there's a lot of clues like
that that goes back to that Israeli
connection and and Bento was one of a
number of um scientists who were
being tracked at, you know, Bhar's house
burned in 1978.
Um to this day no one really knows who
did it but it was a proven you know
arson job by the the fire department and
Bento uh around that time was also being
monitored. Bhar was being monitored and
there's this big like this circle of
kind of his friends and colleagues were
all claiming to be to be monitored be
followed harassed and so forth. Um, and
there was some story
connecting a possible Israeli connection
to this 1978 fire.
>> Um, but yeah, that's a big big question
mark. I mean,
>> and Bento died in a plane crash, I
believe, sort of super mysteriously.
>> He was uh friends with a lot of the
Stanford Research Institute and early
psychic, you know, research pioneers.
>> Yeah. and claimed to have this kind of
theory of everything. He writes a book
called Stalking the Wild Pendulum where
individual consciousness is kind of a
pinched node of some larger fabric of
consciousness or something.
>> And uh fascinating guy.
>> Yeah, they were close. Like I said,
there's a couple tapes of them just like
literally talking and they would just
record it and they would talk about all
sorts of things, mostly, you know, their
their uh shared interest and in
consciousness and stuff. But, you know,
then there's this other theory that
Booharaj could have not been a double
agent and and and simply just a spy
>> and going to kind of pick off
information or hey, we're we're buddies.
We're into the same stuff. We should
tape record our conversation.
>> Like he was CIA and Ben was MSAD or
something. Yeah.
>> But all I know is that stuff exists and
you can put it together how how you
want. But, you know, I've told a lot of
people, and again, it's not because I
sort of fear for, you know, anything,
but we we really don't, and maybe it's
deliberate. Maybe we're not supposed to
have found anything, but we we don't
have any sort of like legitimate
document or anything that really nail
and I think that's what's interesting
about the the film and the story in
general is like you still question
there's still research to be done into
this because we don't have the
definitive answer of what's going on. We
just have all this all these strange
breadcrumbs over several decades that
would point to
>> well I think the most interesting
you know pieces of of media or
journalism beget more questions often
than answers especially if you're
cutting to
>> you know the deeper architectures of
reality. Yeah. And uh I I often think
you should be kind of skeptical or
distrust, you know, people who are like
they're so sure it's just X or it's just
Y, you know, and in this case it's
clearly this kind of murky subject, but
that I mean that makes it that makes it
so fascinating, right? That makes you
just want to go go deeper. And uh
>> yeah,
>> um
>> I think that the sign too of the whole
Geller thing being like I mentioned
earlier like him being involved maybe
willingly in these kinds of experiments.
you know, but he he um yeah, he he
really opened up. I mean, anyone can
hear it. Uh I don't maybe it's been
taken down, but it was this radio
interview from 2019, and he he was very
open about, you know, I was I was
scared. Um and he always uses the term
like Buard made me believe this. He
made, you know, and and he and he does
credit Bard says, "Look, you know, I'm I
I I love the guy. He helped me. He
helped me get to the to America." Um, so
it's not like he's he hates him or he
speak but he he's very clear like you
know at that period like I was I was uh
concerned about what was going on. He
mentions being pretty sure that
>> uh Bhar had slipped him in mushrooms.
>> So you know
there's that. I mean I I don't think
he's he's making that up.
>> No. I think it was like all these years
later, I think he wanted to come clean
or
>> about about like what he really
experiences the vibe that I got from
>> he's a wild character. He has a very
flamboyant online personality. He'll
often make these videos directed at
world leaders. He'll be like,
>> "Trump don't push that button or Putin
stand down or whatever." You know, I
know what's going to happen. And he'll
like predict the wild things happening.
And um
>> well he was doing that in the 70s.
>> He was
>> like like again these this this idea
that you could use this directed thought
to to change somebody's
>> uh uh opinion or to change somebody's uh
direction or
>> and then he he talks a lot about doing
that back then. Um, I have a friend who
worked at the Princeton parasychology
lab and whenever I try to throw the
kitchen sink of skepticism around like
he's just a stage magician and he's, you
know, I don't I don't know how legit he
is,
>> he often said, you know, and I think
they even have like a some papers where
they studied him at Princeton and
>> I think it's often again like these
people have something that's a little
anomalous going on and they play it up,
you know.
>> Yeah. I that's really actually my again
with everything I said prior to him
potentially being the sort of subject
but no I I actually firmly believe that
he was one of probably you know a lot of
people out there yeah who have something
and again it's just like can you turn it
on every time can you can you perform at
every instance someone asks you I mean
no I'm not a I mean I I don't I don't
know but I would assume like you can't
do it 100% of the time maybe you can do
it 60% of the time Yeah,
>> but I think that about him because I've
heard enough stories um through all
these people I've talked to and stuff
who were like, "Yeah, he he had
something, you know, I think he liked
the idea of the the showmanship and but
yeah, he definitely had something going
on."
>> Speaking of people with gifted, you
know, psychic abilities,
>> uh who are the space kids?
The space kids are uh well there's a lot
of them and we only were able to track
down and interview um one two three five
of them but basically when Geller was
kind of blowing up this was like mid70s
early mid70s
uh apparently the story goes that these
kids all over the world
um specifically in the United States, in
the UK, and in and in China, which are
just the the the stories that we were
able to kind of look into. But these
kids would see um Geller on TV and all
of a sudden like that would uh cause
them to just spontaneously like do
something psychic like they would they
would pick up a spoon it would bend
>> or they would you know go into the room
and the the the drawers would you know
poltergeist stuff right and there's a
ton of newspaper articles at this time
which again like okay it could have all
been a hoax whatever. But, you know,
it's like parents calling in uh the TV
station, you know, Puhar claims, like
saying, "What the hell's going on here?"
You know, my kid just did this. My kid
just bent a spoon. My kid just, you
know, touched the the the refrigerator
and it shortcircuited, you know, all
sorts of stuff. And apparently it was
because they saw him on TV and and
something happened, something clicked
and they their psychic abilities just
kind of like came out in that moment.
>> It's like a contagion of Yeah. psychic
powers.
>> Yeah. So that's apparently what was
happening. And so Bharaj of course, you
know, learns this and he's very
intrigued. So he starts to, you know,
visit some of these cases of kids who
are doing this and um eventually I guess
is so
uh eventually he's so convinced that
that this is real and that these kids
actually have this sort of like sudden
emergence of ability that he um brings
them. Well, again, a lot of people have
this idea. There's a lot online about
how he like collected all these kids
almost like a X-Men kind of thing which
is partially true but mostly like he
would lecture in in in you know all over
the the country in Canada and at places
and and people and and we say kids we're
talking like teen you know early
apparently there were like some very
young you know five four five six year
old kids but the ones that we're dealing
with in the film are all you know in
their early 20s maybe 18,
youngest, but they would see him at a at
a lecture and they would they would
approach him and say, "Hey, you know, we
got to talk like I have I have these
abilities and and you are obviously the
guy who knows about this and and you I
need your help." Basically, like they
would kind of go to him. So, at that
point, he thought, "Okay, there's enough
there's enough stories and enough of
these kids coming to me that like I
should start a research program." And so
that's when he sort of collects like a
large group uh of of kids. I think it
was like again online there's all sorts
of stories but it was really only like
maybe like a dozen kids I think give or
take. But he he kind of invites them to
to Austining where he's you know living
and and starts this sort of camp where
basically
they are just doing psychic uh uh
research on these kids and I think again
not unlike the earlier Venade roundt
stuff like a lot of conspiracy stuff
pops up at this moment too because of
the general nature of kids showing up at
the house of a you know known
intelligence
uh connected scientist etc and so forth.
But um basically he collected them and
um just started this camp where they did
you know kind of went through the
different abilities, tested them and and
that all led to getting back to the nine
because a lot of these kids claimed they
had some sort of encounter or or you
know UFO experience. And so Bart said
okay kind of like group them. Okay. All
the all the kids who've had an
experience here, you know, not and so
all the kids that had an experience, he
would hypnotize them and allegedly the
nine would come through even through
these kids who most of which never knew
about about the nine. and and most of
which were kids who like you you hear a
lot with these experiencers who like
they didn't want to talk about it you
know they didn't want you know fame or
they they were just like I'm actually
scared and I want to know what's going
on with myself you know they weren't
trying to like you know do anything more
than like can you help me figure out
what's going on
>> after after you've looked at this for 10
plus years
>> do you think that the nine coming
through these different experiencers,
abductees, people who've seen UFOs
represent something real that's sort of,
you know, non-human or extraterrestrial
coming through these people or do you
think that these were sort of
synthetically implanted or kind of
manipulated by Puharic?
Uh, I think
it's I don't want to say synthetically
created. I think what was going on at
this time and this is um we're talking
74 when this started 7374
and keep in mind this is right around
the time the SRRI remote viewing stuff
starts.
>> Yeah.
>> And keep in mind how put off tells us
that he went to Bhar's
>> house in Austining heard all about the
nine and that Bhar was apparently
communicating with this thing called the
nine. wild
>> and then didn't really say much.
>> Has Al Hal Putov never talked about this
or
>> No, I mean in the film he does.
>> I got to ask him.
>> But um he basically just tells a story
about
>> Well, quite frankly, he was quite closed
off when it came to the the subject of
all this Puharic. Um so I don't know. I
wasn't there at the interview. Someone
else did it. I mean he it was great he
did it, but he basically was like
Puharic was more connected than anyone
anyone ever knew and
>> really He sort of alludes to that, but
he does say, "Yeah, we we went up to his
house. There's footage of him in and tar
at aing sitting on the front steps." So
my theory is that, and people have
talked about this and it's out there,
but I think that there was this sort of
and and we know for a fact that Bhar was
part of the SRRI program. A lot of
people put off himself, say, "No, he
wasn't. He just simply brought Geller
and that was it. He disappeared." Not
true. There's a a pay stub in Bharaj's
archives that is a uh is from SRRI to
lab 9's lab from 73.
>> Whoa.
>> We brought it up to put off. He said,
"Oh, I don't
>> who knows. It could have just it's
whatever. It's nothing." Basically, but
to me that that proves he was connected.
Cuz I think the story most people read
is just like he Brock Geller dropped him
off there and was just like, you know,
have fun basically. But I think that
Bharic's house, which was now called Lab
9,
>> which again like Intellect
and a couple others he had, which are no
use getting into, but he just had these
sort of like front companies, which I
just think it's obvious, you know. So at
this time he had lab 9 and I think that
lab 9 was doing SRRI research you know
on on children because essentially a lot
of the tapes are are remote viewing.
There's no other way to look at it.
>> It's okay what's going on in this
location? Uh what time is this such and
such general going to be at this place?
Uh when should we go here? And it was
actually speaking of Adam Curry, I think
it was actually Adam who brought up this
idea that, you know, a lot of people who
go into a trance or or hypnosis, you
know, there's there's a protocol, right?
It's either like a pendulum or whatever
it is, a countdown. And I think the nine
and and something somehow like this
we're going to connect with the nine
thing was like a way that these it was
an in if that makes sense for some of
these kids to to sort of want to
participate because again it goes back
to if you really want to test like a
kid's a a real you know 20-year-old
person is a 20-year-old a better psychic
and an 80-year-old. You know, eventually
you're going to have to find a
20-year-old and and do an experiment
with them. And I think what was
happening was like if you go to a
20-year-old and say, "Hey, you know,
especially at the time with Erie Geller
being famous, you know, whatever, Star
Wars, this and that, and you say, "Hey,
you know, do you want to be a part of an
experiment where you can communicate
with these, you know, these beings and,
you know, I can put you in a safe and I
can put you in this this hypnotic state
and you'll communicate with them." I'm
like obviously you would say oh that's
okay that's that's interesting that's
cool you know you're not going to say
hey do you want to come be a part of a
uh a covert you know mind control exper
you're not going to approach it that way
so that's my theory is that that was
sort of his way and one of the space
kids whose name I I I don't I won't
mention um she she basically admitted
that where she said something to the
effect a long time ago of like the nine
was basically just like this sandbox for
us to or some some analogy like that
where the nine is basically just like
this sandbox for us to to to play in or
something
>> and and again it was off it wasn't in
the interview it was like one of this
many phone calls we had and I always
stuck with me
>> so I think that at that time again
you've got same year remote viewing
experiments are starting at SRRI you've
got the connection to SRRI via some sort
of payub going directly to lab 9 And
you've got all these young kids who on
the tapes are doing remote viewing. So,
>> but the qu the question I want to push
you on this is like
>> remote viewing is used for the US from
72 to 95 and probably now.
>> Yeah.
>> To like actually add to our intelligence
abilities about real things. Drop
Russian nuclear bases, find hostages,
you know, whatever.
Do you think that this council of nine
were real, you know, extraterrestrial or
non-human beings communicating through
these space kids? Or do you think the
nine was being implanted and they were
testing their ability to sort of
manipulate thoughts and that was through
the nine or whatever and they had some
some, you know, I mean, clearly they did
have some abilities to do that.
>> The the the the evidence would point to
the latter. M
>> I mean that's that's the best way I can
answer that. Yeah.
>> God, that's crazy. That's uh
>> and that would go back
>> very deflating I'm sure for a lot of the
UFO.
>> Well, it is. And again, like I don't
want to come across as this like
negative skeptic person cuz I'm not. But
again, it it goes back to like if you're
trying to be serious and piece together
the life of this guy that spans decades
like and and that's what you're hearing.
Uh
you know that's what you that's what you
have. That's
>> what is if you are saying some of the
protocol to get people into this state
involves
uh saying hey you're you're contacting
the nine and whatever it's some protocol
and it sounds like a hypnotic technique.
>> Yeah. Yeah,
>> but then some seem super open-ended and
they just seem to connect with the nine.
How do you sort of make sense of that?
>> Well, I don't know. And that goes back
to the kind of,
>> you know, I think uh Jeffrey Michishlov
brings this up of this sort of uh
trickster element, the kind of
paranormal phenomena where like
sometimes
>> they're they're tricking you and
sometimes it's real, sometimes it isn't.
I think there was, you know, with Bhar,
like again, it's always that question of
like
where did he stand with like is this
real research that he passionately
believes in and he's trying to come to
some sort of, you know, reality of of
the ET phenomena or was it just all MK
Ultra, you know, and again, I don't
think it was all MK Ultra mind control
stuff, but there's some gray area there
that is so hard to pin down because
again in some of these um sessions
and and this is strange is is that on
some of the sessions, you know, he'll be
like, "Okay, here we are with this space
kid and then their and their mom is here
and she's, you know, this is like the
tape recording we're hearing and and on
those sessions it's like, you know,
typical, okay, the nine um the, you
know, the world is beautiful, we need to
save humanity. etc., etc. Then there's
other tapes that are like,
you know, what time is the best to to
remote view the Kremlin so we can get
infinite, you know?
>> Whoa.
>> Yeah.
>> So, I think it's there was a way of
like, okay, I need to kind of,
you know, give an example to to maybe
other people around to say, hey, look,
this is what we're doing. Okay, see, you
set it on a session, so now you know
what it's like. And then when those
people aren't around, it kind of gets to
the
>> the serious stuff is again what it this
is what
>> I'm you're hearing what I'm hearing.
It's all based off that. It's not like
really my personal
>> um you know hardcore beliefs. It's just
like oh okay this is what I'm hearing. I
think anyone would kind of conclude
that. But again, I think Buharic like
and and this is a big part of the film
and a big part of my philosophy about
him and his story is like I think he
believed
I know he believed in in a lot of
paranormal stuff, but I think he got
sort of under the
thumb of the uh you know intelligence
world early on and I just don't think
that he could kind of get away from
that.
>> And I think, you know, you often hear
it's like the mafia, like you don't just
leave.
>> And when you're when you're that
involved as he was, you don't just say,
"Hey, I'm I'm I'm good." You know, and I
so I think that there was a lot of
pressure on him to do some of this
negative stuff that he may have
otherwise not wanted to do. And I think
that's like a big part of the film and
what I wanted to kind of get across with
it is there's so much negative
conspiracy stuff about him out there. I
mean, there's tons of it. If you ever
read the Stargate
conspiracy, the book, it's really good.
>> It's um it came out in the '9s and it
was the first book that really talked
about a lot like this. This book had the
story that I told you about of the guy
in Florida who woke up with the
>> the tooth implant. And that this is the
first book that really exposed basically
saying everything he ever did was
intelligence involved. He you know he's
he's an awful person. He's an evil
genius. But uh you know it's not true.
And I think that I hope to get that
across in the film and I think we do
because like a big part of that that
research I don't think he wanted to do.
I think he he in a way was forced to do
it you know.
>> Yeah. and whatever this kind of
amorphous blob that is the UFO legacy
program that is always proverbally
discussed but you know usually in a very
kind of highle fuzzy ways. I think
that's probably the case with a lot of
these people is that they were kind of
sucked up into in certain cases they
probably came upon really exciting
scientific truths that were converging
on things that you know some you know
behind the the the Iron Curtain science
you know uh group in the US you know uh
uh during kind of cold war secrecy era
already knew and uh and and they would
recruit these people and then they would
probably be forced to you know work on
things in context texts that they
weren't particularly happy about and
didn't feel idealistic about. And
>> I'm sure that that's the case with him
because I again like I don't want
>> to um
come come across as someone who's trying
to like put him out there because I'm
not I mean like I got to know his family
really well. I'm like very close with
them.
>> Yeah. and and they were great when I
showed them the sort of final product
which really gets into this stuff and
they were like you did a good job
because you didn't shy away from from
that and I think you know you
illustrated it well but you know they
were even like wow there's so much in
here we had no idea about like we
literally had no idea you you're telling
us stuff that we never even heard before
and so that just goes to show his own
family was in the dark about
>> a lot of it but you know the Fine.
Again, like I just keep thinking I think
about it a lot and
I again like the the answer just is I
don't know. But what I've heard and what
I've had access to that came directly
from his personal records would indicate
that it was it was a madeup
>> a madeup thing.
>> Fascinating. Well, that I mean that in
and of itself seems a little messed up
as does
>> yeah,
>> you know, slipping somebody mushrooms
or, you know, telling them they've been
abducted by aliens and taken aboard a
ship when they haven't or quote unquote
teleporting them and throwing them
through a window when they, you know,
like these things aren't cool, you know?
>> No. And again like I think if you watch
if anyone watches footage of Bhar
electric like he's the most joial funny
>> night you know like he's not this like
monster person and that's why I quite
frankly think makes him like interesting
and an interesting subject for a film
because like he's complicated
>> and he he's he's again I think being
sucked into these things that he would
otherwise not
>> want to do and he and not to ruin the
end of the film but he basically like
admits that that he basically admits
like that is what was going on with
them.
>> Yeah.
>> He warns future researchers basically
like don't do what I did essentially is
what he he his message is. If you look
at the Zimardo prison experiments at
Stanford or whatever where, you know,
these prison guards start to get really
self-important or Stanley Mgrim shock
experiments, you know, it's a
>> and then you combine that with the, you
know, the the the power of the CIA at
the time, I'm sure you could get coerced
into doing all sorts of things. And
>> does that fully exonerate you? Like
probably not. But uh it's uh yeah I mean
I think the the the best version which I
think your documentary really gives is
the nuanced one where which shows how
somebody could get
>> incrementally walked into a position
like that
>> and there's just no question the level
of um you know how how deeply connected
he was to intelligence. I mean there's
there's a paper trail of it so there's
just there's no way to kind of beat
around that bush. Again, I've just I've
read so much online and there's a lot of
speculation, but at the end of the day,
like those people don't haven't seen the
materials that, you know, we had. So,
it's so interesting. Were there any
other experiments? So, they were
obviously channeling. They were using
these sort of Faraday chambers. They had
this machine that produced tones. Any
other experiments that they were doing
with the space kids specifically? Well,
here's what's interesting is that um and
you see in the film like getting back to
this idea of the nine being this kind of
endpoint just to like get things get
things done. Uh in the 70s, we're
talking 74 through 76, you know, Middle
East war, right, going on. and Puharic
and
specifically Phyllis Schmer. He was
still working with her then. But and and
the and all the space kids, you know,
they weren't specifically going on these
trips, but they would literally have a
session, right, with the nine. And they
would do group sessions where it would
be like, you know, two people, Booharic
and two other people, him and three
other people, him and six other people,
and that would apparently like bring the
message through more strongly and and so
forth. But um in that time they're
getting messages from the nine saying
you know you need to go to Egypt, you
need to go to you know any you know
Middle East area you need to go to
Russia you know and all these places
which would otherwise be very difficult
for for somebody to just go to during
that period. In fact, one of the guys
working with Boohar at that time, John
Whitmore, he was a British guy who got
really involved. Like he even says in an
interview like you you you normally
could not even get into these countries
at this time. Yet Buharic with his
psychic were we're going constantly
because the nine said you have to go
here, you have to go there. And so he
kind of hints at like well
what was that really the nine or once
again was Buharic involved in something
else that he had to be in these areas at
this time you know under the opes that
this was a psychic you know this was the
nine
>> telling them to go there. Phyllis Schmer
completely questions everything. And you
know, way later in her life, she did an
interview. She said, "He used the the TD
100 machine on me all the time. I never
knew what it did. I never questioned
what it did."
And so you just have to ask like how is
it that Puharic
is able to go to these places during
that time, get into very specific
locations,
often involving very high ranking
government people. And it's all just,
oh, hey, the nine told us to come here,
so we're here. And um and so a lot of
people speculate, you know, um I' I've
heard stories of, you know, Christian
missionaries who were actually spies
and, you know, something like that going
on. Again, it's uh interesting to go
down that road to think about and
nothing we have like concretely proves
that. But I just think like the more you
listen to those tapes at that time and
the more you just kind of put things
together, like it does seem like what if
that was that was the cover and oh this
guy is so crazy he actually thinks a
psychic is telling him oh just let him
go. What a what a kook and meanwhile
he's you know doing whatever he's he
needs to do there. Yeah, it's using the
stigma of the science kind of in your
favor as a cover for something more
vital that clearly was was actually
working and functional. And he actually
on these tapes gives this goes back to
like the remote viewing stuff of like
some of the questions that they're
asking are like you know what are what
is the code name that you know the the
the you know Russian guerilla soldiers
are using so we then know what to pick
up on when we hear this code name. So
then that begs the question, you know,
why would an alien
>> why would an alien be like asking those
types of questions if that's what you're
supposed to be doing talking to the
nine? But to go back to the the the the
constant contrast is like he really was
a genuine believer because he would
often go um to the great pyramid in the
in the same time
>> and do like all sorts of experiments
there
>> really
>> and he just loved going there like he
was obsessed with the pyramid he's
obsessed with the history all the the
Egyptian god like so you know that's not
>> and there are nine there are
specifically nine Egyptian gods So that
was something he was like obsessive
about. He he we have tape recordings of
him meditating in the king's chamber.
>> What?
>> In 76 and he did experiments with um
uh one of the space kids in the pyramid
and they brought through this
information. Apparently they're
channeling this Egyptian god and some
pretty weird information lined up during
that session. And so then that goes back
to like it's almost like okay I got to I
I have to you know do my job for the CIA
and on my off time I I can go in the
pyramid and and do do some cool stuff
I'm interested in. That's just kind of
what it seems because like again
>> there's no mind manipulation dark stuff
going on there. It's it's it's very
clearly him like I'm going to meditate
in the king's chamber. like well what
does that have to do with you know MK
Ultra? So I just think like and again
this goes to like his death in the
mystery but around that where I think
like
there was a situation too where he may
have been you know on payroll for you
know XYZ intelligence agencies and going
to do these things but kind of using
that time to do other things he wanted
and maybe that was he he shouldn't have
done that you know
>> you think they took him out as a result
maybe of that. Yeah, I think part of it
is that he he because again he's going
to Egypt, right? Because the nine are
saying you have to go here, you have to
go to this location to meditate this and
that. But I think he's going, okay,
well, I'm already in Egypt and there's
the Great Pyramid and I've been wanting
to go in there anyways, so I'm already
here. I'm going to go, you know, but
he's there m maybe on on a mission and
hey, you know, don't screw around kind
of thing. I think there was a lot of
that going on
>> and um his death is completely
mysterious.
>> What What happened?
>> You can see the stairway right for this
window where my father allegedly fell
down and they found him right at the
bottom of the stairs.
We don't really know um
>> what killed him.
>> Well, so there's a couple of things. He
he was sick at the time um but not I
believe not enough that would have
caused this to happen. But basically it
was 95
and
around this time he was very vocal about
his life like he was doing these sort of
lecture tours at sort of parasychology
conferences and stuff and
>> he was being very open about his past
and and it was one of these lectures at
that time where he said you know look
I'll admit it um I worked for this part
of the CIA my boss was the guy who was
directly involved with all hypnosis,
mind manipulation stuff.
>> Who is his boss?
>> Uh, he doesn't name his boss, but I
mean, you know what? He might actually.
Let me think.
He does. I have to think about it.
>> Did you figure out?
>> Yeah. Yeah, I know it. Trust me. It's
just in my crazy head. Paritched head,
>> but but I I'll remember it. But, um,
basically, and so he says, "Yeah, that's
what I did. I was I was I was a
consultant at the time." And so he opens
up about a lot of that stuff. He he
literally says, uh, I can produce in
your mind the image of of um an alien
experience.
Um, his assistant what at the time was a
woman who was on this this tape that
Dick Russell recorded I told you about
and Bart was in the hospital.
>> There's a part of the tape where Dick
Russell goes outside. I think they're
having a smoke or something and he's and
he's just kind of like, "Hey, look, you
know, give it to me straight. Like,
what's going on with this guy?" And she
she opens up too and she says, "Yeah, he
told me about things he's done that he
he he's worried for his life about
thing." She says he um using flashing
lights, using all all tone, all of that
stuff was able to create the the the UFO
experience. That that stuff was all
created. she says.
So what she was opening up about that on
this tape and so
>> so he would like stage UFO is showing up
as well. Well, I think what she's I
think what she was getting at is what we
were talking about with this this
controllers um idea is that yeah, like
kind of I guess more implanting the the
the idea that you've had an encounter or
you know you've been abducted or so like
he was involved basically making the
point he was involved in that kind of
stuff, that kind of research. Um, and
again,
you know, you got to ask like why why,
you know, like why was it always like
the UFO thing? But um but all that was
going on like right before he died, you
know, that tape was recorded less than a
year before he died. But um he he was
found uh at the bottom of the stairs. He
fell and he he passed away. And at the
time he had all these um he was still
and again this goes back to like what
did he really believe? He was still
living with this group of like women who
were like psychics apparently and he he
they lived with him and he was still
like you know doing stuff with them or
whatever. But but conveniently that day
they no one else was there at the house
uh when they were usually always at the
house.
>> And Puharic has this like weird legal
pad that he wrote like very soon before
this this incident occurred where he he
fell down the stairs where he's
basically like outlining
why he thinks he's being monitored. He
names people that he believes have come
into his life who are who are there to
basically harm him and take him out. He
cla again this is either like the work
of someone completely paranoid or
somebody who's just totally telling the
truth.
>> Well, it's right before he fell down the
stairs mysteriously.
>> He claimed that they this this and again
it makes sense cuz these psychic people
would kind of like show up even to this
day and be like, "Hey, you know, you
should study me." and this kind of
thing. So he and he was a nice guy
again. So he would want he would let
people in and he would welcome them. And
so he claimed that there was a people
like that who were actually, you know,
basically out to get him and that they
installed this ELF
uh emitter in his television set. So
when he would turn on the TV, he would
get hit by this, you know, ELF that
would be and he and he was a physician.
He was a medical doctor. So he would
know what was going on with his own body
and he writes in this legal pad like you
know I'm this is happening to me. I can
tell he would test himself every day.
>> Well he also developed a lot of these
techniques right they're using
>> what he developed on him on him.
>> Yeah. I mean if again if this were to be
believed which I quite frankly do
believe what he says in this but he
basically is this legal pad. He and it's
all these events kind of leading up to
why he believes they're they're out to
get him basically, right? But um yeah,
coincidentally, the day he's found, you
know, there's no one at the house. And
um right be not right before that, but a
few years before before um his death, he
had been uh approached by the CIA to
head up a ELF research
uh department. Basically, again, he
writes this. I've I've found some
evidence to to to prove that this this
probably happened, but there was
apparently a department being set up
just to to study ELF
um you know, weapons and so forth.
Again, a lot of that was going on in the
late '7s. And he he said no and
apparently some argument ensued and he
said, you know, get out of here and and
because they came to his house. He's
kind of recounting this in his notes and
um the guy that he said came on behalf
of the CIA to talk to him is a guy we
know was involved in the CIA.
>> Who's that?
>> This guy named Bob Beck
>> who's in the who's in the film. Um,
and he was another Puharaj type where
where he got roped into a lot of things
I think he he wasn't necessarily wanting
to to do, but um, so that happened where
he he refused that and said, you know,
no, you know, get the hell out of here,
etc. So, all of that stuff was leading
up to 95 and he was found dead.
Coincidentally,
you know, the Stargate program ends in
95.
>> I was gonna I literally made that
connection in my mind. Yeah. And
coincidentally,
um, this guy Grinberg,
Joabo Grinberg,
>> yes,
>> who, uh, there's a great film, shout out
to, um, Ida, my friend, he made this
great film about him. Um, in 95,
uh, less than a month after Bahar dies,
he, this guy disappears, Grinberg. And
if you see the film, um the story
basically is he was involved in very
similar research. Basically was able to
prove a lot of this psychic stuff is
real. And to this day, they don't know
what happened to him. He that's still a
missing person.
>> Did he ever meet Puhar?
>> Yeah, they met when Bharaj was in exile
in Mexico after his house was was
burned. uh they were they met in Mexico
in in less than a a month after Bharis
was was uh found deadberg
disappeared.
So again, what do you say? It's all a
coincidence and you move on or you say
there's something so bizarre. Yeah.
Grinberg, the the whole thing about him
is like he realized we live in a matrix
and then he had left the matrix or
something like
>> but what's interesting about him is like
again it's it's it's
literally still like an open cate like
they've never figured it out and of
course a lot of people say oh you know
he he got sort of kidnapped by whatever
government agency and they're using him
and you know what's crazy is uh on some
random message board
>> uh this was like years ago I saw a post
that was somebody like I know for a fact
that Bharaj never died and he was he was
taken in by the government and he's
still alive and someone I know and the
weirdest thing is a I was skeptical of
that but I I was like years later I
remember reading that and I and I spent
hours and days trying to find this
message but I could not find it for the
life of me.
>> I tried everything I could possibly do
and I couldn't I couldn't find it.
>> Um so that was weird.
>> That's super weird. Yeah.
>> So, it just got erased or something.
>> I get and but that was the that's like
the real theory of Grinberg. Like again,
the doc is really good, but there's like
actually,
you know, legitimate proof that like he
he was sort of taken by by the
government.
>> So, that's what your friend who made the
movie thinks that he was actually taken
and
>> Well, that's one of the theories that
basically everyone involved in the story
like agrees with because everything just
points to like that. So
>> that happening. So so all that was 95.
January 95 was Bharat's death. February
95 Grimberg goes missing. Stargate
officially ends in '95. Government puts
out newspaper articles all over the
news. You know Stargate there's nothing
to it. It was all bunk. Um, so and keep
in mind Bhar at that time was lecturing
about all of that and being honest,
being open about all the experiments he
did with, you know, Stargate. So, I
think um Annie Jacobson alludes to it
like I just think it was this classic,
you know, he knows too much
>> and he can't be he can't be out there
talking and he he's experienced too
much, he knows too much and
>> uh it's not good. So,
>> I could see them seeing him as a
liability late in life. you know, maybe
feels remorse about some of the things
that he did and he's speaking openly and
you know,
>> they're probably just trying to
accelerate the research in the in the
black. Um, what are some of the wilder
testimonies of the space kids that you
spoke to? So basically, but the space
kids like yeah there there were a lot um
and again the reason the film took so
long which you know to give myself
credit for because a lot of people are
like I can't believe it took you so long
and this and that but a lot of it was
like just getting people to talk cuz you
know you can imagine
these people like don't want to and
again this is what you know you hear a
lot about this with the UFO abduction
stuff like these these people like
weren't looking to be in the spotlight.
In fact, they didn't want to be. It took
about 2 years for me to basically earn
the trust of these space kids who I now
consider like good good friends. But
that's what took so long. And I always
thought like in order to make a really
cool film, like you got to get these
space kids. It's like Stranger Things in
real life, you know? Like that's what
would make this thing work. And so I was
just like convinced we got to get these
these people. And we got we got five of
them. But again, there was like a lot
more. A few of them were like, you know,
never reach out to me again. I want
nothing to do with this. So,
>> what did they say? I mean, that's why
five is amazing. What What did they say?
>> Well, so basically like Yeah, what I did
was I I somehow was able to track them
down just basically through like in
Puhar's archives and things and again on
the tapes like he he would say a name or
he would write their name. Well,
actually, in fact, in one of his
journals, he like wrote all the names of
the kids at the time, so it's pretty
easy to like Google people. But,
>> um, yeah, a lot of the the ones we got
were were again after kind of talking to
them and saying, "Hey, I'm I'm, you
know, trying to do like a level-headed,
you know, portrayal of Boohar. I'm not
some crazy conspiracy person." Like,
after all that, um, yeah, they were
really open. But um you know they
basically talked a lot about like what
it was like being at his house at that
time which again was kind of cultish. I
mean if you want to look at it that way
in the sense that like other than the
space cuz there was just all sorts of
Sarati Jack Sarat being one of them like
him and his kind of group of physicist
people would go up there. It was just
kind of like yeah like a hub of just any
all these people interested in this
stuff would just go there and like hang
out.
>> For people that don't know Sarati is a
physicist who is pretty well respected
and studied under you know very
impressive people who you know were
Manhattan project you know pioneers and
he has a a model of of time travel and
and warp drive physics and he he lives
in the Bay Area and he's very outspoken
loves to call people schmuck. He's
written about um in the hippies saved
physics uh by by David Kaiser this MIT
guy. Yeah.
>> And um so I didn't know he had any
interaction with uh uh Puharic. That's
amazing.
>> Yeah. He went to his house
>> because he also I believe Sarati the way
he got involved in this exotic physics
that he ended up studying was he claims
that as a teenager he was in some gifted
and talented education program
>> and he was he gets a call from the
future saying you're going to meet the
others you're going to be work on like
building UFOs essentially which he
believes his work touches on building
UFOs
>> and and this is a guy who could keep up
with you know any top theoretical
physicist in the world like he's he's a
real physicist. He studied under Hans
Bet uh you know at Cornell and stuff
>> and um
>> he uh says he gets a call from the
future and then and then you know they
tell him when he's going to meet the
others and then he ends up meeting Hal
Putoff like later or whatever and it's
>> this weird synchronicity
you know it's so strange. So he's
interacting with Andre Pur.
>> Yeah. Well, you know, it's a crazy
connection I just thought of
>> um in that story. So, the Sarati story
uh quickly is Yeah. He he got this call
from this metallic voice which is what
some of the um g what Geller claims this
as well actually. But uh really yeah so
he guess it's called Metallic Voice that
was some sort of you know alien
intelligence but um I don't know if you
remember his part of the story where his
I think it was his dad or his uncle or
something was was involved in the army
or army intelligence and one of the
people that he knew through a family
member that was connected was this guy
Wilson Green. He brings up this guy
Wilson Green and that
uh guy Wilson Green was working with
Bharaj in the 50s
um at the round table doing everything
they were doing there.
>> Whoa.
>> Yeah. So, do you did you ever ask him
point blank, hey Jack, like was any of
your stuff do you think it was seated by
these sort of, you know, mind control
people or
>> I mean, I think like he's open about
that being a possibility as far as Yeah.
But I just remember him bring up that
name and and in in Bhar's journals like
he has one where he's kind of listing
all these people. That's when I first
told you about the Towns and Brown
connection.
>> This is insane. This is the craziest
thing. Yeah. Tell everybody about this.
>> Well, in one of his journals, it was
just uh him recounting like he would
often go to DC for like meetings.
And this is early 50s again, which
>> weird that the same year you're
channeling the nine, you know, in your
lab, you're going to DC to meet with all
these people. But he would just like
keep very meticulous journals about what
he did, where he went, who he met. and
he would just like, "Hey, I met this
person for lunch. Met that person." And
so, yeah, Wilson Green comes to mind
because he had something to do with um I
think it was the Army's psychological
warfare department. And that's the same
guy Sarati references, but in these
journals, he mentions um meeting Townsen
Brown
and spending the day with him. And it's
very brief, unfortunate, actually. Maybe
we could do this together. There's part
of the page that's like so worn you
can't really like read what it says, but
it's it's kind of a you know a brief uh
mention that he he met with with Brown
and spent the afternoon. He says
something like spent the afternoon with
him to discuss a lot or something like
this.
>> I know some kid who like helped I think
it's called the Vuvius project and he
helped
>> decode this ancient papyrie and so if he
could do that hopefully he could get us
this uh you know this transcript. That's
crazy. So he met him and this was again
I'm I'm positive it was 53 was that that
journal. So yeah he was going there. Um
so yeah that's how I I found the
>> and it brings up all these questions of
like were people like Warner von Braun
and Brown's ideas somehow seeded by like
MK Ultra adjacent things like probably
not because you have like you know
Warner von Braun goes way back to like
you know early journally like a you know
a rocketry genius like you know as a
young kid
>> um was all was way into this like you
know like in his in his teenage years
>> um or was like you know if you think
about like what would be one of the main
use cases of MK Ultra it would be like
keeping secret science sort of unlock
maybe creating some sort of cult
dynamics around it wiping people's
memories when they work on really
sensitive [ __ ] like who knows and towns
and brown to me obviously I'm very high
conviction in his stuff the audience
will
>> give me [ __ ] cuz I talk about him all
the time, but I think he's like the
godfather of American kind of, you know,
in the black dark science like whole
tech trees
>> that come from anti-gravity or extended
electronamics or fifthdimensional
physics I think kind of arise from
>> towns and brown and so I wonder I wonder
what that meeting was like.
>> The time then was weird overall. I think
what people don't realize about the 50s
is like there's a letter between I think
it's Claude Shannon who invented
information theory was at Princeton
information theory is the basis of all
modern computation
>> and William Shockley who invented the
modern semiconductor you know Bell Labs
essentially and um it was a letter and
he goes you know my my friend you have
to meet my friend he's really
interesting you know he's into all this,
you know, interesting science stuff or
whatever. And it turns out he's talking
about Elon Hubard. And so the the point
is like it's this weird time where the
intersection between the types of people
who'd be engaging in like bizarre
seances, ESP, paranormal stuff that
wasn't outside the Overton window like
it is today.
>> Yeah.
>> And so,
>> yeah. Anyway, how would you speculate on
do you have you speculated on the
connection between Towns and Brown and
Bhari? nothing more than just they were
probably interested in similar
>> similar things and and but it's odd
because he said it was in DC.
>> So Brown was there for whatever reason.
>> Well, Brown was probably deep in
intelligence. I mean, there's a story of
Towns and Brown engaging in a UFO crash
retrieval
>> in um I think it's in the late 50s and
it's like I think Hartford, Connecticut
>> and this like green glowing object that
seems like it's losing mass gets
collected by a a professor there named
Robert Brown. It then ends up at
Moonwatch at Harvard which is connected
with Blue Book and Robert Friend and
Jaylen Heinik have possession of this
you know material and Towns and Brown
walks in to Harvard flashes his
credentials and takes the material and
like that you hear stories like that
time you have telegraphs that I think um
or telegrams that uh his daughter um I
think has uh I I know this I think
through um this amazing researcher on
towns and brown named Jan and Lungquist
and I think she says that there's a
telegram between William Stevenson who's
the inspiration for James Bond that Ian
Fleming is Church Hill super spy who was
like you know um coordinating with Wild
Bill Donovan the OSS
>> he was like as high up as it gets when
it comes to intelligence
>> and there's a telegram from um him to
Josephine who's Towns and Brown's wife
uh because Towns and Brown had had flown
behind enemy territory parachuted into
you uh Nazi Germany in 45 to interrogate
some scientists because he was an expert
in all this stuff
>> and it's this telegram is says you know
from William Stevenson your husband is
okay you know he's he's been injured but
he's okay and he's on his way back to
the US or whatever so I can give you
like 50 other stories like that like
Curtis Lame I mean his daughter said I
think on the phone with me Linda Brown
says Curtis Lame chases Towns and Brown
down the stairs because he's so
interested in his inventions and
So this guy was like as deep as it gets
when it came to the American
intelligence and and military elite.
>> Um so it makes sense if Puharic was as
well on the kind of the psychic you know
you know vector and maybe if all of this
stuff is being coordinated at a higher
level than we understand and there's
some spook spooky science stuff and the
anti-gravity connects with the psychic
stuff and you know nuts and bolt like
they all kind of materials they all kind
of connect at the at the top. Those two
guys seem like very central nodes.
>> Yeah. And I think there's a lot of
similarities with what you said. Uh, you
know, this idea of like flashing
credentials and walking in play. I mean,
there's again I could give you 50
examples of Puharic doing that kind of
thing that I've heard.
>> And so, yeah. And I think like the
journals that mentioned Brown and these
others, like I don't think these were
sort of meant to be seen, you know,
these were like buried in his in his
records. In fact, like in the film,
you'll see like his his his assistant at
one point kind of mentions this idea
that like not not um not long before he
passed away like he had made mention
like these papers I have in my house
need someone needs to take them. I don't
trust giving them my children for their
safety. And so I I think this is stuff
that was not supposed to be um read, you
know, or seen.
>> It's amazing. There's a lot of other
names. I researched them all. He met
with Dulles. I don't I guess I haven't
to mention that.
>> Wild.
>> He there's he's literally again in the
journal met he's like you know says
something like uh you know wait was in
the waiting room for an hour and finally
got in and we had we talked and
>> so obviously you're up to something
serious doing that.
>> You're meeting with the third director
of the CIA who yeah it's wild. I mean if
yeah if anybody was kind of running the
government behind the government it was
Dallas. So
>> do um yeah some of the wilder
testimonies.
>> Yeah the space kids.
>> Space kids. Yeah.
>> So yeah they so they just basically
recounted a lot of like um
what they experienced a lot of the
channeling sessions. So a wilder story
is um uh this one of the space kids his
name is Haime.
>> He's um from Mexico City.
>> Great guy. And again, he was somebody
who would never have wanted to appear in
a documentary, you know, like his life
was totally fine, you know, he didn't
need to talk about this. But he did
because eventually he told me like if
you're willing to like tell the real
story, like I'll talk because he knows
like I did. There's just so much like BS
stuff out there about Puh Harish and
everything. But um he told me a story
about he um he was medit they at one
time he was doing an experiment with
Bhar's assistant this woman who's in the
film um they were doing experiment they
were meditating
uh together
and
she they were sitting in a room together
both meditating and he says that at one
point she got up and she went over to
him and she touched his forehead with
her finger. And when she did that, this
big uh blue
ball, I guess this like ball of energy,
as he describes it, appeared. Next thing
he knew, he came to She was all the way
across the room against the wall, and he
was back up against the wall. and he
doesn't remember what happened. And the
last thing he remembers is that she
touched his forehead. Some sort of burst
of blue light. She flew across the room.
And he
told me that and you know, and he said,
"Look, you know, you can talk to the
assistant like she'll she'll corroborate
this." And and I did and she did and she
did. And his his theory was just like we
some connection, you know, must have
been been occurring and and
what what what do you do with that?
Because something I learned which was
very bizarre because this was another
thing that Boohar didn't kind of open up
uh about until way later in his life is
he he says and again this is not me or
speculation or making something up like
he says in his own words he invented
this uh prosthetic finger that would
have a a chip with a certain ELF
frequency that would emit from it. So
when you touch somebody's forehead with
this, it would be the exact frequency
that would like knock them into the
hypnotic state they needed to be in in
order to do channeling.
And so he could basically just like I
could go like this to you and you would
fall into the thing. He he says that
>> one of the one of the kids says, "Yeah,
I I I remember that." So was this
instance with Haime and the finger
something to do with that? What was it
not? I don't know. But that's one of his
stories that was really bizarre.
>> Any UFO related stories?
>> Um, yeah, there was a lot of um
there were a couple
like the classic, you know,
right now there's a a UFO that's sort of
hovering over this session and and some
claim to have witnessed that. Um there
was a few stories like that. So that
would be in the like his protocol like
he'd be saying that or like they'd be
like automatically channeling that
>> that would be like apparently the nine
you know saying that saying this through
them. Yeah. But um then there was a lot
of um
>> but like if we're to get super concrete
about this like is that him beaming the
message right now there is a UFO you
know above our head or is it like
creating some weird protocol and then
like what happens to them happens to
them and we have no idea where that
content is coming from.
>> Um I don't know.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. It's strange because
a lot of these sessions are very long.
Like some of them are literally like two
hours long, you know?
>> And
it's it's just I I hate to say like it's
kind of like you just need to hear it to
kind of like
>> Yeah. to understand because it's it's
just it it really is mindboggling
because I I constantly go from like this
is this is an experiment this is being
to like oh no this is like literally
he's making contact with an
extraterrestrial
>> say say you were to suspend disbelief
entirely and just take the contents of
the nine at face value. How would you
characterize these nine beings and what
they want for humanity?
Well,
it's like I said before, um they they
speak a lot about this idea that we have
the ability of destroying ourselves, you
know, and that if there's a way they can
prevent that, then they they want to.
And they talk a lot about nuclear bases
and this kind of thing that, you know,
we hear a lot about now. Uh they kind of
say like we're kind of behind a lot of
the sightings that that are occurring on
nuclear bases. Um
>> but then now I'm like you're making me
think this shit's real.
>> The re the reason I'd love to be cynical
about it, but like the nuclear stuff has
been going on since the 40s. There's
this guy Bud Clem.
>> Uh there's this UFO and nukes
documentary. It's all based on Robert
Hastings great work in his book. It's
really good. And I made kind of a, you
know, another little thing with Robert
Hastings on my channel, but you have
this guy Bud Clem as early as 1945 in
Hanford where he's talking about these
fireballs in the sky and they did this
project twinkle which was deleted from
the Air Force archives. Uh Lincoln Leaz,
this meteorite expert uh at University
of New Mexico is talking about green
fireballs that seem intelligently
propulsed flashing that like aren't
explained by anything prosaic. And just
like the the nuclear connection is so
ubiquitous and then you're telling me
the Atomic Energy Commission gave him
money.
>> They gave him like over a million
dollars.
>> Yeah. So like if I were them, I'd be
like try to tap into what the hell is,
you know, controlling. Yeah.
>> Dude, this is a crazy rabbit hole.
>> Yeah.
>> Obviously. Uh
>> um what was I going to say? You know,
you're see now you're now you're
entering what I've been in for like
years of this constant like wait a
second now I think this
>> because um
>> there there was a lot of uh
>> well you know the the classic thing
where like with disin UFO disinformation
they often say like some of it you know
some real stuff is sort of peppered into
>> Yeah. I think it was that kind of thing
too where like maybe there was real, you
know, ET UFO related research going on
with some of this mind control stuff
peppered in just to throw off the
course.
>> Well, what connection did you just make
when I said the atomic energy thing?
What what I was thinking was um there is
uh I think I sent you something about
this guy a while ago and uh I I have to
say now I don't know enough um so I
don't want to go too much into it but
there's a guy his name is Oliver Riser
he was a um philosophy professor at
University of Pittsburgh in the 60s and
70s um and he wrote a book called cosmic
humanism which I've only read some of
but it's bas basically uh this idea like
his whole world view is this idea that
like everything
is run everything in the world is just
run on frequency, tone, sound. He thinks
it's like the universe is all sound. Uh
and that's how you know we that's how
like inner interstellar travel works.
That's how all psychic stuff work. It
all comes back down to this, you know,
sound, tones. Again, there's this big
connection here with this tone stuff.
But anyways, Bhar knew this guy. They
exchanged like dozens and dozens of
letters. But this guy's theory, um,
Riser was, you know, the ability to
communicate with, you know, ET UFO is
through tones, through sound. And he was
like again
so complex I can barely understand it.
But him and Puhar would exchange these
letters that were like you know two
masters going back and forth about this
stuff like diagrams,
charts, math and like you got to think
like they obviously were like on to
something. And again this goes back for
the hundth time of like Bharat's real
interest in this stuff. But Riser, yeah,
this was his theory that the way to
communicate with, you know, non-human
intelligence was essentially through
tones and through sound. And so you get
Puharic, you know, doing that basically
where he's using tones and sound with
Space Kids and can you while they're in
a trance, there's a lot of experiments
where like I'm going to play this
certain tone and can you kind of like
connect with that tone while you're in
this hypnotic state and can you follow
that tone? Where is it bringing you and
what do you hear now? All sorts of stuff
like that. Um, so
I guess what I'm getting at is maybe
there was some real research there.
>> Yeah.
>> That had to do with something that
wasn't just, you know, a mind control
thing because this guy Riser was
brilliant. I mean, in his obituary,
Albert Ein Einstein said he was like,
you know, a genius.
>> Is that true?
>> Yeah.
>> What?
>> Yeah. Albert Einstein said like Riser is
he had some quote about him being you
know this genius.
>> That's insane because Riser talks about
like parasychology and mind matter stuff
and you think of Einstein as being
totally opposed to
>> Yeah. Well, I think with Riser like a
lot of guys like he started doing more
you know quote unquote legitimate
research but he got he got obsessed with
this again this this theory of tone
sound connecting the universe. This is
how everything works. And so him and
Puharic were um exchanging a lot of
letters about like you know do you have
the ability to to create such and such a
tone and at what at what speed should it
spin within the you know complex stuff
but would lead me as a lay person to
think like okay clearly they like
they're talking about something serious
here you know
>> that's so fascinating. So, so the
>> and the atomic energy commission funding
it I find
>> the same years literally the same years
he's exchanging letters with riser 63 64
>> that's when he gets the contract from
atomic energy commission
>> I mean it's all there's there's it's a
paper trail
>> and the 50s UFOs showing up around
nuclear bases is this ubiquitous thing
it's constant it's all over various CIA
air force documents you know I I sort of
document a lot of stuff. Hastings
documents it. It's It was definitely a
thing. In ' 64, there's a famous case at
Vandenberg Air Force Base. Oh,
>> yeah.
>> With a guy, a photo instrumentation
specialist named Bob Jacobs.
>> Um, so that's that's fascinating.
>> Very interesting.
>> So, yeah, it just points back to this
idea that I I I you know, he he was
genuinely
interested in in in paranormal, you
know, research and in UFO. I mean, it's
not just like all of that was fake.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I just think it got muddled
at some point.
>> Yeah. And like I, you know, maybe
there's somebody like typing out, you
know, what these space kids are
channeling and then it's converted into
this ELF frequency and it's transmitting
to the, you know, space kids brain or
whatever.
>> Well, you know, it's weird you say that
cuz on a lot of the tapes there's
mention of um coupling to the computer
datab bank
>> is often a term that is thrown around a
lot. And this idea that there are some
sort of computers involved
>> on which end though? Because are they
recording what they're saying?
>> No. What you what you just said,
somebody's typing something.
>> Whoa.
>> Cuz they often say,
>> "Well, now I'm back in the in the more
cynical camp where it's mind control."
At one point he said um that you know
that referring to the channel being the
the person you know at some point they
will become a more reliable source of
data and there's a lot of talk about
about that and again like what we have
are tapes and and tons of them and
hundreds of hours. So like you just all
you can do is piece together.
>> What did the space kids think? Do they
think that they were genuinely tapping
into nine, you know, non-human entities
or extraterrestrials or do they think
that they were tapping into like some
dude on the other end? Like a lot of
them probably know the history that you
know at this point.
>> Well, it's that's a great question and I
think that's really the best way to
approach it cuz they they were involved
firsthand. Mhm.
>> But I think, you know, to answer from
what I know is I actually discovered
things about, you know, what I'm talking
about with these more sinister
connections that they they did not know.
In fact,
>> um, one of the space kids who I'm close
with, like, yeah, she she was like, you
know, shocked. I I I cuz again, what
what they didn't understand, what I
think a lot of people didn't understand
who were involved in this project is
like information. I was getting
information like as recent as like six
months ago about things that I didn't
know that were like really important to
the story like this guy Bob Beck
>> who was who was most certainly CIA who
was at the at Austining at the time of
these exact space good kids good kids
good kids good kids good kids good kids
good kids good kids good kids good kids
experiments this one of the spaces like
I never even knew knew that like you're
telling me this for the first time so
it's a mix between
I think
to be quite honest I think a lot of them
want to believe that what was happening
was genuine and I think they want to
remember the time they had there as a
positive time and they want to
they don't want to go down the negative
path or they don't maybe want to accept
that the negative path may may be you
know the reality and I don't I mean I
would probably do that I mean I you know
so I I think um some of them want to
just try to say hey look we were told we
were talking to the nine we were
communing with the nine we were it was a
good time we were young we were free you
know etc.
>> Mhm. And a few of them um have become
more open like the guy from Mexico City
I told you where I think some of the
things that I told them made them say
wait a second I didn't know that
>> and all of a sudden after all these
years they themselves are going wait
what is that and whose name was and
they're starting to put pieces together
that they never they never thought about
and they're starting to maybe think at
least okay something else was going on.
What was it? You know, we don't we don't
know for sure, but I think they're
willing to accept like some something
else was going on back then.
>> One of the trippiest people that
interacted with Puharic who who he
probably had plans for and it almost
seems like the subject of some, you
know, kind of maniacal experiment is
Valerie Ransone.
>> Yeah.
>> Who is she?
>> She Well, I wish I knew who she was.
She's like the most elusive person I've
ever come across. I think she's the most
elusive person in this whole UFO
history.
>> Well, I mean, so basically what I do
know is that she was um
she was working in the uh White House
during the uh Nixon administration and
it had nothing to do with like
intelligent or maybe it did, but it had
nothing to do with intelligence or
anything. It was it was some sort of um
uh program to I can't remember. It was
sort of like a SNAP benefits type
program. It was some something like
this. But that's how she was, you know,
involved in government was she was part
of a a program like that. But apparently
she became very interested in the UFO
topic. Uh she became very good friends
with um Gordon Cooper and she claimed to
be a space kid I guess like she claimed
to be able to like channel information
and so she somehow wound up at Buhar's
lab lab 9 in in 78
and she
is very there there's nothing there
about her. There's nothing out there
about her. There's a couple people I
know about who have been trying to track
her down for years. They can't.
Apparently, she's still alive. But she
basically um I believe was extremely
deep in the whole UFO thing and I think
knew a lot. We have a tape recording of
um this guy Elvis Star who was very very
high up. Uh I can't remember his exact
role. He was like maybe head of the army
in the in the 60s, some high up role in
the army. But anyways, he was very very
connected. There's pictures of him with
like every, you know, president during
the ' 60s '7s. Like there's a tape of
him saying like, "I met Valerie Ransson
in the White House." Um, she believes
she was in touch with extraterrestrials
and he kind of makes a joke like, "What
do I know? Maybe she was, but that kind
of firmly places her in that circle cuz
there's a lot of speculation about like
what's true and what's not true." But
this was a very legitimate guy basically
placing her What what was his role
exactly?
>> He was um so from what I understand is
yeah he was like the head of army
something or other and then he went on
to become the president of like West
Virginia University but he was a part of
all these like weird science um uh
companies and weird energy companies
that were happening in the late '7s.
like there's this this company called
Mag Magnetic Energies LLC or something
that Valerie had some sort of connection
to and this guy was like consulting for
that or he was connected to a lot of
like weird
stuff basically and there's very little
on him other than his more official kind
of government roles. But um he he has
this because he was writing a memoir and
we found this tape where he was kind of
like dictating um the what he was
writing and he he says, "Yeah, I met
her. She was in the White House a lot.
Um she knew a lot of people." But yeah,
she basically she just claimed that she
could communicate with UFOs that were
giving her advanced um information that
she in effect had to pass on to like
important scientists. She predicted the
failure of one of these rocket launches
in the late '7s that actually did occur,
>> which
>> I don't I don't know. You have to
>> That's so great. What? Um Oh, wow. So,
so, so basically she was there, but but
the kicker is like she was also really
involved in a lot of Tesla technology
research, a lot of ELF research and a
lot of people who I know who were um
including the space kids
uh were like, "Yeah, she was like she
was connected. She was extremely
mysterious. We have no idea what was
going on with her." Um,
>> so they remember seeing her around.
>> Yeah. Yeah. And then and then but and
she was somehow like do you know what
role she had in the White House or
>> No, other than this guy Elvis Star
basically saying like I I met her on on
numerous occasions at you know inside
the White House. You can look it up. I I
can look it up too. I I I'm sorry I
don't remember, but it was some program
that she like ran in DC as part of the
Nixon administration, which again was
not like involved in an intelligence
thing, but that was her like in with
with that that world.
>> And she had some NRO involvement, too.
>> Yeah. Jacqu Filet is the only one I know
who wrote about it, but he claims that
he he spoke with her back in that late
'7s time and she was doing some sort of
work for the NRO and um experimenting
with satellites and messages from
satellites to people and I'm telling you
man, yeah, I mean I've tried to I mean
the other film I'm doing which is a
whole other thing but she's really
involved in that and that's how I got
into her cuz we have a tape recording
ing of her. Um, that was a phone call
that was recorded. But yeah, if there's
like any crazy enigma in this world that
someone needs to like get to the bottom
of, it's it's her. And uh I don't know
if they ever will cuz I've certainly
tried hard to and apparently she's still
alive.
>> She's still alive.
>> Yeah.
>> Oh, you got to go find her, man.
>> Well, I've I've I think I I think we
kind of know where where she is and
stuff, but but it's really just strange.
She was very involved with Gordon Cooper
and again he had started some company as
well that was some like advanced energy
LLC or something. And so from what I
understand, she was kind of like
going around and even Jacques says this
like she was just trying to create this
network of of you know high up
government individuals and people to
kind of like start getting interested in
in advanced technology, Tesla
technology, ELF stuff. But all all the
while she claimed to be, you know, a
space kid and able to receive
information and and channel information
and
>> so trippy.
>> Yeah. And there's a guy a Kit Green.
>> He um I mean I don't even care anymore
at this point about saying stuff like
this. Like he I was talking to him for a
while and he was like, "Yeah, I can't be
involved in anything that mentions Bhar.
It's just too controversial." And then
he told me that he knew Valerie Ransson
really well and that he was like I don't
know much about him. Again, I'm not
trying to cover because I'm like nervous
or anything. I I genuinely don't really
know. I just know I've heard a lot about
him being like a do like a a person who
helps like abductee people who claim
they're abducted and stuff. So
apparently he was doing that even back
then with Valerie and he was working
with her which I don't know what that
means exactly
>> but he was very I mean there's something
out there online as that's you know very
you know open where he talks about this
I think but um anyways he I I was like
hey I'm trying to do this Valerie thing
val he was just like yeah no
like basically like don't talk me again
and anything revolving that name I can't
be associated with.
>> Wow.
>> And every single person I've talked to
who knew Valerie or had same reaction.
Yeah. I'm literally like I wouldn't go
there or you should just kind of stop
now and don't I've gotten all that
stuff.
>> Whoa.
>> So like what's going on?
>> What do you think? Do you have Well, so
for first of all, a little context for
the audience. Kit Green um deeply
involved. He's a CIA psychiatrist and
doctor.
>> I knew that. But after all that stuff, I
don't really know like what his
>> he's he's deeply involved in like I
think the whatever CIA files around
biological interactions from you know
people interacting with UFOs
>> that was given to um Gary Nolan in the
like mid2010s. I think that was I think
given by Kit Green and Kit Green
analyzed them alongside Gary Nolan. but
he's like a long time guy who kind of
pops up in UFO lore. Kind of akin to
>> uh Hal Putoff, but really seems to be as
deep as anybody specifically on kind of
the
psychological kind of you know um you
know neuroscientific dimension of of
this whole thing.
>> So what what do you do you speculate as
to what Valerie
>> Well, I have a couple of things but yeah
the kit green thing again I'm not he I
did talk to I'm not trying to throw him
under the bus. I just think he like it's
just another example of someone who's
like, "Oh, her, yeah, I can't be
involved." Like you you you're better
off like not going there kind of thing.
So, a couple of speculations. Firstly,
and this came from someone um uh named
Bruce Ericson, who's this kind of like
new age researcher guy who um I I know
who's really cool, but uh he knew her he
knew Valerie really well. And he um
painted her in the same light as like,
you know, she always happened to be
there whenever something was going on.
She always happened to travel with no no
issues, no money issues. She was always
anywhere she needed to be. But um he
speculates that she was sort of um like
a spy and and the and the type that
would maybe sleep with with somebody for
information. And a lot of reasons that
these men in particular don't want to
talk about her is, you know, I don't
need to say it. Maybe something
happened, now they're married. They
don't want to go there. Maybe that's why
it's this very standoffish thing, which
I can get that.
>> But that was his theory. Um because
apparently she's really good. I mean
there's one photograph that I know
literally one that exists of her. That's
not true. There's one online
>> and there's one that I have in the Puhar
archives of her at Lab 9.
>> Um and you know, yeah, she was very
good-looking. So that was this one
theory is that she was kind of like
getting information
um on behalf of who? I don't know. But
this, you know, you hear about that uh
happening. You know, sleep did that kind
of thing. So that was what this guy said
who knew her well. That was his theory.
But um
the other theory is that she um was
again with the same idea of being an
attractive
woman was able to lure in uh individuals
to help with funding for certain
projects and hey I'm a part of this
thing. You should be a part of this
thing. cuz again she was always on these
boards of these sort of weird energy
companies and things like that. But um
the really weird thing is I don't know
if you've seen it there's there's
allegedly an interview of her on
YouTube. So you you probably know this
YouTube account Eyes on Cinema.
>> Oh yeah.
>> So So anyways on there this one day,
this was not even that long. It was like
a year ago. this video pops up and it
says Valerie Ransson like describes her
UFO um experience and you can go anyone
can go right now and look it up and I
was like holy holy [ __ ] like that's her
I've never seen again there's one
picture
and I'm like oh my this is crazy as in
the interview it's really bizarre she
tells this really weird and the thing is
it checks out of what we know from her
and most of the information is from the
forbidden science books
Flet stuff
>> and you know she says I was going to
school in Northern Illinois in this
interview. Uh she says she moved to
Houston. We know Jacques met her in
Houston. Uh the point is everyone I know
who knew Valerie. I said, "Oh, this is
great. A video exists of her now." Sent
it to them. Hey, look. Here's Valerie.
Like can you believe this? Every No,
that's not her. Nope. That's definitely
not her. I knew her. That's not her. And
I said, "Well, that doesn't make sense
cuz like everything she says in the
video checks out to what we definitely
know." Nope. Not her.
>> Not one person.
>> And even this
>> Do you think they were like They just
again didn't want to
>> I don't know. But it's just it's so goes
back. She's so She's the biggest enigma
in this whole world. Every single one of
them. Nope. Oh man. What? You know,
anyone who thinks that's her is an
idiot. And but everything she says
checks out. And in the video, she tells
this crazy story about how she had a UFO
experience when she was a a kid in
college and her friends saw it. And then
after that, she continued to have
bizarre um sightings of UFO sightings
happened to her in her life many times.
And then some guy, you got to see the
video. She says this guy um shows up one
day to her job and is like, "Hey, you
know, I want to take you." I can't
remember exactly that what she says, but
basically this very mysterious guy shows
up. They go out to lunch and he's like,
you know, I know that you've had these
UFO experiences and he and he spouts all
this stuff about her that no one would
otherwise ever know. Like stuff about
her family. I know you've had you had
this UFO experience at this time in this
location. So, she's shocked, right?
So then she says she gets into the car
with this guy cuz he's driving her home
or something and he gets a tape cassette
puts it in the car and the tape cassette
starts and it's a voice, a metallic
voice
basically saying, you know, I'm an I'm
an ET and I'm here on Earth on like a
humanitarian mission and I we want you
to work with us. you you're going to be
the first uh test human to work with us
and you know do do you accept this
position
and and then she she the guy parks and
she gets out or whatever and and she
starts to question okay what what's
going on here like was this real was
this guy trying to like recruit what
it's it's that's her story and and then
after that is when all this stuff
happens of her getting involved with
Boohar. All this was like early '7s she
claims this happened and all this stuff
that we know about is you know late 76
and 77. So that's her like origin story
but apparently it's not her according to
everyone who knew her. Oh that's not
her. That's not the right woman. That's
not even what she looks like.
>> So why? But on the tape recording we
have, which is a recorded phone
conversation,
the voice on that, which is most
definitely her,
sounds it's it's her on this video. It
sounds the same.
>> Sounds like that voice.
>> So, it's probably her.
>> Yeah,
>> that's so weird.
>> So, that's a rabbit hole in and of
itself, but but basically, yeah, she
spent like a good amount of time at Lab
Nine.
Um, and she brought Gordon Cooper there
and then she disappeared and everyone
who knew her was like, "Yeah, I have no
idea what happened to her or they're
just straight up don't want to talk
about her." Uh, I don't know. It's
really bizarre. She wrote some book
that's basically all this like chneled
information that she got.
>> Have you read it?
>> Uh, no. Well, I I've I've skimmed it,
but I think you used to be able to buy
it on some odd website, which is now
down, but um it's ve very very strange.
And um when I was trying to get in
contact with her, I weirdly, this is a
crazy story. I got I this this guy got
in touch with me completely out of the
blue, and this has happened a few times
throughout the the making of this where
like someone is like, "Hey, I heard you
got you have Bhar's archives. I'm really
interested in him." and what do you
have? And we should we should talk and
and that kind of thing.
>> This one guy, weirdly, right around the
time I was trying to um try to track
down Valerie, he reaches out to me and
he's like, same thing. Hey, I know I'm a
I'm a researcher and I heard your name
about Puharic and this and that. And
he's like, you know, have you heard of
Valerie Ransone? I said, yeah. He goes,
oh, would you want to talk to her
because I'm actually in contact with
her. And I'm like, "Yeah, sure." And and
so he forwards me an email which is
allegedly from Valerie, which is like,
you know, hey, uh, you know, let's talk
and this and that.
>> And and one thing led to another and
this guy just completely go ghost
disappears, right?
>> Never heard from him again.
I look him up on Facebook
and again may maybe I'm crazy and this
stuff has gotten to my head but his
Facebook looks like the the the the
quintessential I'm making a fake
Facebook account. This isn't me kind of
thing.
>> Sure.
>> And that you know again I'm very
levelhead that it really like spooked me
out. And then years later, year, this
was we're talking probably two uh
probably like 2016 17, I'm talking like,
you know, not that long ago, like 2021
20. He reaches back out to me
>> and is like, "Hey, you know, what's
going on with the film? And is there any
way I can see it? And hey, did you ever
talk to Valerie? If you want, I can try
to get and I just never responded to the
guy again."
It was really strange. Whoa. And I tried
the email that he had that he claimed
was Valerie's. Of course, it like,
>> you know,
>> weird.
>> But Well, what happened when you
emailed?
>> Oh, no. Nothing.
>> Okay.
>> It wasn't It didn't kick back, but I
just never You never got anything.
>> I never got anything back ever. Yeah.
>> But you think you've located her?
>> Yes.
>> And you're going to try to interview
her?
>> That's amazing. Well, I hope you do,
man. That would be incredible.
>> Yeah. I mean, there's a lot to get in
with into with her, but that's that's
the gist of it. And just the fact alone
that Kit Green was involved with her
back in the late 70s is really strange.
>> So strange.
>> Yeah.
>> Early 80s. Yeah.
>> This is crazy. It's so it's like there's
a woman in the Nixon White House who's
claims she's channeling aliens and also
happens to be on the board of all these
sort of, you know, spooky science
outfits that seem to stem from exotic
Tesla, you know, uh uh uh extra low
frequency technology. It's really wild.
And what I can say for for again for a
fact is like in the late '7s there
really was like so much um unknown about
this potential of like radio frequency
weapons and it's on YouTube. There's a
whole CNN special which came out a
little later. I think it was like 83,
but it was kind of detailing all the
research that had gone into like you
know those th those types of weapons and
um you know radio towers that can beam a
certain frequency that can agitate
people and etc. So that was kind of like
the wild west in the in the late '7s
there of like I think people trying to
figure out what this is, what can be
done with it. And he was just like in in
the middle of that. And um you know
there was a lot of people running around
researching that at the time and I think
there was also a lot of research
happening of um you know what's the
potential of this stuff? What's possible
with it? Um, so and Valerie was again
interested in that and was involved in
in that. So
it's so wild. Um, what are the
implications for all of this on modern
UFO disclosure, which seems to usually
emphasize kind of aerospace contractors,
secret, you know, nuts and bolts,
weapons technology, faster than light
travel, that sort of thing.
What are the implications of the stuff
you're looking into for for that?
>> I think it's I honestly I I think it's
more of the same that we talked about
earlier where I think there's some
there's some truth peppered into a lot
of, you know, false going on. And I
think that that still happens, you know,
I think that's still going on. So, you
know, I think the implications are it's
just still difficult to navigate
what's what's real and what is not real,
you know, and I think it takes people,
you know, like you and and others who
are like really seriously interested in
looking into this stuff and talking to
people to to kind of like keep going
with it, you know.
>> Yeah. Well, this is a I mean, if there
you know, it's a big puzzle that we're
putting together. This is a huge piece
that I think is missing for a lot of
people, you know, prior to your movie.
So, I really hope uh people go check it
out. I think it's going to be, you know,
make make a lot of waves and update a
lot of people's understanding of this
whole topic. And I loved it. I thought
it was really well made. Um, how can
people go find it?
Uh well, it's going to be for purchase
um on, you know, iTunes and YouTube and
that kind of thing. Yeah, we're going to
do kind of like this uh release now with
um Age of Disclosure.
>> Okay.
>> We're going to do like a you know, you
can purchase it for a certain amount of
>> bundle situation. Okay, cool.
>> But there's some interest in in um some
streaming stuff. So, and
>> any anything big that uh I didn't touch
on that I should have asked?
>> Honestly, like yeah, probably. But
>> I mean, you're you got you're gift that
keeps on giving, man. It's crazy.
>> Oh. Oh. Um the one thing I was going to
mention is um this is again an example
of something like very recently like
Bobby Ray Inman, who I know a lot of
people are talking about right now. I
called him because because he was uh
head of uh naval intelligence I think
during this exact time um that Bhart is
doing a lot of space kids stuff like
late '7s into the early 80s and a lot of
ELF stuff and I just just called him
straight up and I introduced myself.
>> How'd you get his
>> I found his number online.
>> What?
>> Yeah, I kid you not. It was one of those
classic white pages sites where it was
like a bunch of different numbers and
I'm like none of these are ever going to
work. And I was like, "Hello." And it
was him. It was one of them.
>> Oh my god.
>> And he was pretty nice. But I just
straight up was like, "Hey, have you
ever heard, you know, the name Andrea
Bukhar? Do you know Bob Beck that?"
Because those are the two working at
that time
>> um with the Space Kids. And he was like,
"No, never heard the name." And
>> he was really nice and he was just like,
"If you come across anything more
concrete, you can call me back." and and
um but I just figured, huh, maybe he he
knows something cuz we know we know
naval intelligence at one point uh was
like a big funer of Boohar not not only
back in the 50s but going into
um the early 80s as well
>> but anyways he didn't
>> that's what Harold Malgren always said
he said the the deepest you know kind of
core was the o and office of naval
intelligence they really knew the most
about this stuff
>> yeah he heard Harch was in with them
very early on and he continued. In fact,
there was a um scientist working with
Bhar at the this time, Elizabeth Rouser.
>> She passed away, but they got like this
huge grant from the the OI.
And I was like, you know, looking
everywhere to try to find Doug. She has
a huge archive at Berkeley of all of her
research. And I I had someone go there
and look and we couldn't find anything.
But but um you know they they were
working with a lot of people then. Um
but yeah, Inman uh didn't come up with
anything. So
>> yeah.
>> Well, he might have reasons to withhold
information as well. He was the I think
uh deputy director of the CIA and the
director of the NSA at the same time, I
believe.
>> Yeah, something like that. Um, oh, the
other thing, yeah, the last thing I'll
say is, uh, not unlike Valerie, one of
the, uh, space kids who we did an
interview cuz we couldn't find her, but
she's on a lot of these tapes was this
woman named Chiron.
>> So, um, you know, Sharon with two Rs.
>> And
like Valerie, you know, huge question
mark. Everyone who knew her then was
like she was this very legitimate real
psychic. Puharic apparently would bring
her around, show her off to people in
government and academics and just say
like look what she can do. She can
channel all this advanced information.
He was always working with her. There's
pictures of her and she just
disappeared. And everyone who knew her
back then was like, you know, it would
be amazing if you found her because she
they are convinced that she was pulled
into a, you know, Stranger Things
montalk project type project where like
she was the real deal and she was sort
of pulled into a project like that.
That's why she's just kind of like wiped
off the face of the earth. There's
nothing about her anywhere. Again, I
went to the great lengths to try to
locate her. Nothing
>> does this. people don't want to like
Valerie, they don't want to talk about
her when you bring her up. So, that was
another example of like, okay, maybe
there's some reality here because
it's just so bizarre. And like multiple
space kids were like, yeah, I knew her
well and I I wish we could find her.
Like she was a friend of mine and she
disappeared.
>> Just like she was a the whole program
was a feeder maybe into something deeper
and
>> yeah, there's a lot of conspiracy stuff
like that out there, but um people think
that his Yeah. Buhar's lab was was that.
So,
>> do you does this add to your conviction?
You know, I think even the makers of
Stranger Things say that
>> uh it's based off of, you know, the
Montalk experiments and I I think it's
pretty well established that there were
some experiments in Montalk Long Island.
Does this add to your conviction that I
don't know you hear all these things
around gifted and talented education you
know uh kids who who have sigh abilities
being taken into secret national labs
facilities often associated with the
atomic energy commission or federally
funded research and development centers
like Battel Memorial Institute and
others and um you know they're they're
told to like you know how do you
interact with this exotic piece of metal
or
>> uh you you know, pick a card or, you
know, things like that. Does this add to
your conviction that this was happening
in sort of a widespread way?
>> Oh, yeah. Boohar himself, um, again, if
you choose to believe, you know, what he
says, he he openly says, "I helped
locate these kids." He he talks about
it. I mean he says like I was the person
who would say you know yeah this you
know this one checks out and they would
move on to wherever they would move on
to. Um he talks about helping other
countries with this the UK he said he
traveled to the UK and helped them
locate children with sigh abilities. So
it's all that it's all that gray area
you know.
>> Yeah. You you have to ask why this stuff
is coming back into vogue. Like you have
the telepathy tapes top the podcast
charts in the entire country.
>> Yeah.
>> And part of me is thinks it's a
beautiful amazing thing. And obviously
in my opinion I think
>> I don't think it's all
>> a scop. I think that some of these
autistic non-verbal children are
actually they do have really amazing
abilities. It's unfortunate that some of
them like this woman that went on Danny
Jones um I think are actually faking
things is the mother of one of the kids
and she clearly was peeking past this
blindfold which is just so sad and what
a poor representation of
>> you know again what I think is an
underlying real phenomena. But does it
does it make you ask questions around
why is all of this stuff coming back
into vogue? It feels like if you were to
take an index of aliens,
sigh and psychedelics
um and you were to you were to you know
in in like say it's like a you know
synthetic derivatives like an ETF or
something. If you were to invest in this
in the late60s early '7s you'd like lose
a lot of money into today.
>> But now if you were to invest in these
things five years ago or something it's
just feels like they're all taking off.
like it feels like the trend is like and
does are you cynical about that? Is is
there is there I mean maybe even to take
that ETF analogy further
are there financial or corporate
interests behind the repopularization of
some of these things because a part of
me is extremely idealistic
about them coming out because I do think
it touches on kind of deeper
architectures and nature of reality and
then there's another part of me where
I'm like it's got to be coming out now
because of some military-industrial
complex reason or something. I don't
know. I mean, I think
I I certainly think this film is going
to help, you know, put some pieces
together about the history of all this
stuff. And I think the fact that it's
coming out now is interesting because of
all this, you know, this resurgence of
interest in it. But, um, I know what you
mean. I don't know. Like I talked to a
kid who claimed he was part of the gate
program and I I won't say his name, but
now now he's very vocal online about his
involvement in that and what he did and
he wanted to talk to me because it was
so similar to the stuff the space kids
did that he read about. But I don't know
what's I don't know what to believe, you
know, with that. So it's just I don't
know. I'm in the same I'm in the same
boat as you. I don't know what what the
motives may be, but I think that Bharic
was certainly extremely important in
this whole world and the fact that
there's never really been something like
on him that's out there is um exciting
for me obviously. So,
>> I think it'll
>> I think it'll raise some eyebrows.
>> I think so, too. Raise some eyebrows,
maybe ruffle some feathers, but you
know, you know you're on the right path
if you do that. But um
>> yeah,
>> Greg, this is an honor, man. This is a
lot of fun. One of my honestly like I I
love information dense podcasts,
especially ones that are uncorrelated
from other, you know, I love the the
stories, you know, I I saw that thing
and I was in the bed and I wasn't, you
know, they put a chip in me. Like that's
it's fascinating,
>> but you it's always hard to sense make
after that. Like how does this fit into
some coherent tapestry of what's
actually happening? Yeah. I love this
interview because you just to me again,
you know, you you added this big puzzle
piece uh that seems to be missing as far
as this whole story and obviously begets
uh you know, a hundred more questions,
but um I I really hope everybody checks
out the movie and uh thank you for being
here.
>> Thank you, man. I appreciate it.
>> Awesome. Yeah.
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