Why do you think people are struggling
with the communication? Because it's
something that wasn't taught to them. It
was only modeled, you know, and a lot of
people didn't have good models. They
they had people in their lives that saw
conflict as something that they had to
have in order to feel close to each
other. They saw how yelling was the only
way to possibly stop something or maybe
get physical was the only way to prove a
point. And so there's a lot of people
who haven't had communication modeled
well in their life. And there's a lot of
books you can read and there's a lot of
things you can do, but not until you've
actually done it can you ever start
actually improving in it.
>> It's like that Mike Tyson quote.
Everybody's got a plan until you get
punched in the face.
>> Yeah. Until they get popped in the
mouth. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Lots of people
fear conflict, but in communication
especially,
>> why is it so scary? Why is conflict so
hard to navigate?
>> It takes courage. Like people feel like
yelling and being aggressive. That's
that's strength. It's not um
being somebody who can handle conflict
calmly and know that you're going to get
through it and there's going to be an
end to it. That takes a lot of courage.
I think a lot of people are afraid of
that vulnerability. That's a word that
men in particular find that that's
something that is some kind of no-go
zone when actually that's the one thing
they probably most need. You know, some
people instead of just a shouting match,
they really just need a hug. And so it's
it's it's
this unknown for a lot of people. And
how how do you how do you not say the
wrong thing? And so there's that that
fear and fear often is masked in forms
of anger. So it's a lot easier to get
defensive and yell than it is to
actually lean across and work through
something hard.
>> Why do you think people lose control so
quickly in conversations?
Because it takes no effort. It it takes
takes zero
uh effort to yell and get defensive and
raise your voice. That there's no
struggle in that. It takes a whole lot
more strength to be able to take a
breath, slow things down, say things
more calmly. And so it's it's just an
easier path. That neuropathway is a lot
easier. And it's it's just something
that's organic in our bodies. It's part
of the fight or flight. Every time you
hear a disagreement or something that's
a different opinion that you don't like.
>> Uh we naturally our whole body goes,
"No, I don't think I like that. That
doesn't sound good to me. That that
conflicts with something I believe that
conflicts with something I grew up
knowing cuz my dad believed this. My mom
believed this." And all of a sudden,
that's why facts and evidence typically
don't matter when it comes to changing
somebody's mind. It has a lot to do with
how you've communicated in a way the how
you've made them feel about it. I've
always thought that facts don't care
about your feelings line could not be
more backward.
>> Yeah.
>> Feelings don't give a single [ __ ] about
the facts.
>> Yeah, they don't.
>> They don't care about the facts.
>> What is happening in your body when you
get triggered?
>> It's the same thing of physical danger.
Like our bodies don't do well at
deciphering between a social danger,
meaning are they confronting me,
offending me, coming into my space? Is
my autonomy being questioned? Is my
authority being questioned from a
physical danger? So, it's the same
thing. Your your pupils dilate to take
in more light, meaning it's kind of like
that portrait mode on Apple to where
your everything kind of goes fuzzy in
the background. Your your your fists
clench, your jaw clenches. That's why a
lot of the times you start yelling and
people go, "Why are you yelling at you?"
I'm not yelling. It's because your
breath has like your breath has nowhere
else to go, right? It's it's because
you've been holding
>> you've been holding your breath because
you're ready. Like your body doesn't
know, is there a bear behind the bush?
It's like it's like the same if I were
to text you. I said, "If I if I texted
Chris and I said, "We need to talk."
Period.
>> First thing you go is, "What' I do?
What's wrong? What happened?" It's it's
that it's that anxiety. It's that it's
that fear.
>> Have you seen there's some reels
floating around of people saying uh
amazing ways to connect with your
partner? And it's all stuff like that.
We need to talk. Exactly. What did you
do? Like all of these weird open loops.
And when I think about it, I think a lot
of it is the openness. Mhm.
>> It's the fact that there is the
potential for things to go wrong, but as
yet no conclusion,
>> right?
>> And in that vacuum is where all of the
speculation gets sucked.
>> Yeah.
>> Typically, especially if there's a
little bit of activation or agitation
with that, that is where
>> Yeah. everything just gets pulled in.
>> Oh, it because it it expands. I mean, it
can be just like a bomb. That's that's
what happens when you usually start with
context first or a lot of unknown first
that we need to talk period.
>> Uh or if you just respond K,
>> you know what I mean,
>> dude. Mine the [ __ ] thumbs up
reaction emoji. That's
>> the most passive aggressive [ __ ]
>> Yeah, that that's that's more harmful
often than like giving them the middle
finger on the like
>> I would rather you tell me to [ __ ] off.
Like that thumbs up is is just the worst
thing you could have possibly done. It's
like you have a K in there. It's like I
didn't care enough about you to put a O
right in front of it. That's how little
that's how little I care about you in
that moment. So it's like, you know,
you're creating that unknown and that
fear. It's the same way uh often we know
what it's like when somebody starts a
story with the context and they'll say
something instead of getting to the
point, meaning starting with their end
first, they'll be like, "So you remember
the other day when we did this thing?"
And you probably don't remember, but and
they start going like, "What's what's
happening? Okay, what's are you are they
upset? Are they not upset? Have I done
something wrong? Have I not done
something?" And we go often into fixing
mode. We want to try and fix it. And
usually we start to kind of, "Oh, you
want to go there?" And like, "No, no,
no, no, no. That's not it. That's not
it. What?" And then it gets really,
really frustrating. And then you go,
"Okay, so you want me to Well, okay. You
just totally missed it. I mean, I gave
you the whole It just It's because
they're not being clear about it. Well,
we don't have theory of mind. And good
storytelling saves the exciting twist
for the end. But I guess good emotional
storytelling buries the lead in the
headline, right? You say, "Hey,
>> uh, I'm not mad at you and this is
nothing to be worried about."
>> But,
>> right,
>> or
some degree of I love you and I just
really want to have this conversation. I
think it's I think it's super important
and and I I know that. What was one that
I got from uh Connor Beaton, who I work
with the other day?
I need to have a difficult conversation
with you and I know that you can handle
it and I know that we can handle it as
well.
>> I love it.
>> [ __ ] great, dude. You're like, "Oh,
let's go." Like, "This is good."
>> Yeah. And see, that's what that that
makes you want to get into it to say,
"Hey, we're going to grow. We're going
to grow through this." And so rather
than when somebody comes into a
conversation, what what I call, you
know, labeling the difficult
conversation. Rather than let's say I
need to give you bad news about
something and I'm already feeling
anxiety about it. I don't know how I'm
going to say it. I've been thinking
about it while I brush my teeth, while I
drive here. God, how am I going to have
this? And then I just start with a, hey,
Chris, how's it going? You're good. Have
you you've been playing pickle ball
lately? Yeah. I mean, have you seen
that? It's like it's like ping pong but
not. It's crazy, you know. And then
you're like, "What's going on?" And then
I go, "So, so listen." Uh, and that's
when you know,
like you you can already tell in the
tenor of my voice like something else is
going on. And that's the you're trying
to see what what else is happening cuz
you know something else is going on. But
when you're able to say, "This is going
to be a hard conversation.
This isn't going to be fun to talk
about. This is something that is going
to be hard for us." It's almost like we
kind of ready them and to be emotionally
resilient to kind of nod and go, "Okay,
I'm ready. Let's talk about it." But
saying, "I'm telling you this because I
know we can handle it.
>> This isn't a conversation that you and I
can't get through."
>> Like, let's go. We can do that all day.
>> One of the other lines that I've heard a
bit, there's two situations uh that over
the last couple of years have been very
formative on how I see communication.
Mhm.
>> Uh the first one was Theo Vaughn with
Shan Strickland. You see this clip?
>> Shawn and Theo. Sean Strickland, MMA
fighter, UFC fighter. You know who he
is?
>> Oh, is this where he goes? I'm just
going to sit with you.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> That was so good,
>> bro. It is
one of the most beautiful examples of
space holding.
>> Yeah.
>> That I've ever seen. And was something
that I'd never seen done before. And
then my friend Charlie from Charisma on
Command did a breakdown of it and fully
explained what was going on. He goes
through the body language of Shawn. So
Shawn's gripping this water bottle. He's
got some [ __ ] bottle of Evian which
is getting ragged around while he's
having this conversation. He's grasping
with one hand. He's looking for control.
He can't find it. He's looking for
control. He's looking for control. And
then Theo makes a joke that pulls him
out and then puts him back in. Yeah.
Here we go.
>> Dude, I remember like laying in bed like
I remember like stop believing in God,
man. Like [ __ ] like I had [ __ ] um
Yeah. It's crazy [ __ ] dude.
Crazy [ __ ] man.
>> Yeah.
It's okay, man. It's a lot of that sad,
dude. I used to be scared at night like
uh I used to stand up like I heard when
I was a kid that like if you peed around
your like animals could pee somewhere
that other animals wouldn't come. You
know what I'm talking about? You know
what I'm talking about? Huh?
>> Yeah.
>> Have you ever heard that?
>> Yeah. I'm sorry, bud.
So man,
>> I'm sorry, buddy.
>> It's all good, dude.
>> We don't have talk, man. I can just sit
here with you for a minute.
Oh, [ __ ]
[ __ ] Stay sec.
I can just sit here. We can just sit
here. No,
>> it's all good. You take six seconds and
just process it.
>> Yeah, man. Like
>> that's so good.
>> Talk to me when you see that. Yeah.
>> What do you see going on? Well, one you
you see from him have a much bigger
position to then his leg goes up
>> uh and he's which is already like kind
of coming more into yourself, right? cuz
probably if he would if he could have on
that couch that's the position that he
really wants to be in is like when
you're when you're trying I mean there's
a reason why they call it the fetal
position when you're trying to like get
yourself more regulated and he's doing
this right here which is in a lot of
different therapies this is very
regulating because it's allowing you to
have a lot of tension and then a lot of
release
>> and so for people who are having a
really hard time and they feel like
they're going to have a panic attack or
they're really trying to process things
they'll like grab a pillow
>> like those plushy toys, they they have a
purpose, right? It's like you squeeze,
squeeze, squeeze, and it's release. And
so in that moment, that's that's exactly
what he's gripping for. And that's
probably what he was trained to do. But
you can tell he's he's he's looking for
control. And I love how that's a perfect
way of just saying you you said a minute
ago, space setting where a lot of people
say, "Just hold space for somebody." And
that sounds like therapy talk of like
what does that exactly mean? Well, Theo
does it right there. He says, "Hey man,
we don't have to talk about anything or
solve anything. We can just just sit.
just let me sit with you. And that right
there is I mean who who doesn't look at
that and go I that's strength right
there. How courageous is that? Rather
than and you can tell Theo starts to
like try to relate to him and go yeah
when I was a kid man and tries to like
>> Yep.
>> And it that he was already he was
already coming back to when he was you
know in fifth grade and the desk being
taken away and he was all of a sudden he
was 11 years old again. M there's a a
couple of moments where Theo makes a
couple more jokes, pulls him out.
>> Yeah.
>> And then he goes back in and he sits
with him again and Charlie breaks this
down. The video he did was like
>> I'll have to check it out. That's
>> It was so formative to me, dude. And
it's crazy to be friends with someone
that's able to I'm genuine friends with
this guy for like six, seven years.
>> Mhm.
>> And he's able to just put a piece of
content out that maybe 100,000 people
have seen, 150,000 people. It's not a
massive video.
>> Yeah. and it just completely introduced
me to Joe Hudson who's now a guy that
coaches me who taught Charlie all of the
stuff that he used to break it down and
grasping and
>> so that was the first one. The first one
was it's okay buddy we don't need to
talk we can just sit here if you want.
>> Yeah,
>> that was the first one. Then the second
one
>> is from Connor Beaton from Man Talks and
he used this line that I've never ever
heard anybody else use before. He said,
"Your emotions aren't too big for me."
>> Yeah, that's a good one. Oh my god, your
emotions aren't too big for me.
>> Yeah,
>> there's space for you to just be you.
>> Mhm.
>> And in both of those situations, it's uh
reassuring. There's no performance
needed, no nothing.
>> Yeah. Because I think in all
relationships, especially uh romantic
relationships, there can be this feeling
of somebody is afraid they're being too
much. Like is that's why we may not want
to express all our emotions. We're
afraid they're going to be too much.
Then the other person is not going to be
able to carry it, hold it. It's they're
going to dismiss it. They're going to
see it as all the things that we're
telling us in our head is it's it's not
going to be there. They're not going to
be able to support me. Uh I'm going to
be too much. I'm going to be left by
myself. I'm going to have to carry this
by myself. But that kind of that kind of
language to say my emotions are big
enough for this moment. Or even, you
know, I I I've said to my kids, which we
love to say is like, "My love for you is
big enough to handle this." Like,
>> "My love for you is big enough for even
this little outburst or you doing
something wrong and my love for you
covers all all of this. you don't have
to worry about having to perform or
having to have the right answer or you
know like my son right now he's eight
and so he's finding his way through
like a lot of school boys at during
recess or right after pickup they throw
the football uh just back and forth into
like crowds of boys and it gets really
easy of like who can throw the best, who
can kick the best and like they they're
choosing who's most dominant. Yeah.
who's the coolest of of all of that. And
I remember him coming home and he's
really down about it. And he was like,
"They didn't I I played that nobody used
me." Like in other words, he didn't get
thrown too in that game. That really he
was like, "Is that like I'm I'm sorry."
And he was like apologizing to me. And I
had to I mean like this was dad moment
right here. I could have been like,
"Yeah, next time I want you to go ahead
and elbow a kid." Um I was like, "Dude,
my bigger than that. You're you don't
have to have any of that. And I think
that's the kind of model of things that
more men can do.
What are some of the other lines that
you love to use in a conversation?
Conversations becoming disregulated or
>> you know that this person needs
reassurance. Someone needs reassurance
in a conversation that you're having.
What are your favorite lines to show
them that you're there with them?
Um
the
the one that I like to use, and it's
gonna sound cheesy, but it but it works.
I promise. Is if we're not okay, then
nothing's okay.
Like it's if you and I aren't okay, like
this is why I say this to my to my wife.
If if we're not okay, then nothing's
okay. In other words, it's really easy
to go, we're fine, we're fine, and then
just all of a sudden focus on the kids
or finances or whatever. And it's easy
to kind of switch over to getting busy
with something else and it gets swept
under the rug. But you you miss that
chance. Then it becomes this little
bitty paper cut and then you'll have
another little paper cut and you have
another little paper cut. And so
eventually those become big ruptures
over time. The one I also like to use um
is something else is coming up. I'm not
sure yet. Like if if we're in a
conversation and I can tell that there's
more to it for me, like I'm I'm I am
having a bigger emotional response than
what's called for,
I can invite her into that conversation.
Let me put that differently.
If let's say we're having a level three
conversation,
in other words, nobody's mad at each
other, but something happens and all of
a sudden I'm at a seven or eight and I'm
just something's really got me upset.
>> It's much easier if I say I can tell
something else is coming up for me. I'm
not sure yet. Rather than me trying to
hold it in, avoid her, go distance, and
try and fix it myself. when it's
actually me inviting her into this is
what's happening to me in that moment is
the very conversation and connection
that is going to make her closer to me
to be the person that I I need in that
moment rather than thinking that I have
to present her with somebody who's 100%
whole and fixed and has it all together
>> and you're a part of this you're a part
of the team we're working together
>> exactly and that's and and that is the
vulnerability side of it you can't you
can't strengthen alone like self-improve
improvement is
if if if you're just in it for
when if it doesn't help you connect with
anybody else, then self-improvement is
just self- worship. There's there's
nothing else to it. Like you you have to
it's it's to improve you around others
as well.
>> So going back to the triggered in the
body conflict in a conversation.
>> Yeah.
>> How can people interrupt that reaction
in real time? Like what are the best
ways to stay composed when a
conversation gets animated
>> when things are starting to get
ratcheted up? You you have to find a way
to slow it down. You have to find a way
to elongate the process. Like you don't
get extra points for having a very quick
comeback. It looks good on social media,
right? It doesn't work in real life.
They just don't. You have to be able to
slow it down. So what does that look
like? It means you have to use your
breath
a lot. What I teach is have your breath
be the first word that you say. I teach
this every one of my clients before they
go into deposition or cross-
examination. It's it's your breath.
That's the only way you're really going
to slow things down is if I choose my
timing in this conversation and not let
somebody else press their timing on me.
Like in the home, for example, if I if
we wait to have a conversation when the
kids are in the bath and we're trying to
do dinner and everything is stressful
and we've already had a tire, my battery
is already at 20%.
>> Chances are not going to go great in
conversation. It's not going to be that
awesome. But if we're able to slow
things down and I'm able to pause
and use my words to let them know a
better time and be better, that's going
to do a lot better for me. So, what does
that do in the process? How do how do
you do that? Aside from using your
breath in conversation, you need to say
it out loud. I can tell I'm getting
defensive.
I'm going to be better for this
conversation here in a in a little bit.
I can tell I'm not saying things as well
as I want to, and I don't want to
approach the conversation this way. the
I it's if you were rather than trying to
get defensive,
if you were able to say, "Listen, I can
tell this moment is a big one and you're
saying a lot of things that are really
important. I want to make sure that I
take the time that gives my part what
this deserves
>> and that and that's going to take that's
going to take some time.
>> We're a team."
>> Yeah. Exactly.
>> Even in disagreement, we're a team. Even
in conflict, we're a team.
>> All the more. Yeah. especially when when
it's conflict because it's it's um when
you find that you're only
nobody wants to be in it alone. Like
nobody we we know what it's like to be
in a relationship with somebody where
you're the only one in the boat
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So breath first word
>> yes breath
>> space if
>> timeouts
>> battery is low and I need a little bit
more room what else
>> get quick to timeouts the timeouts are
something that you can't really be uh
overused in some sense if you find that
things are really really frustrating
they say I think the data was like you
need to have 20 minutes to kind of
regulate yourself
again um in other words don't try and
say you know what let's just I need a
moment and then it's not two minutes
later and they're like, "You know what?"
And then you're right back at it again.
That's not near enough. That's not near
enough time. You need you need more time
with that. So, we got pausing, using
your breath, giving time to elongate it.
So, two, timeouts. And then three, set
aside actual time for the conversations
that matter. Like you'll we'll set aside
time for me time, you know, to do what I
want. Go work out, go do whatever, but
we won't set aside time for some of the
most important conversations we're ever
going to have. And so if I were to say
even to you, I'd say, "Hey, I'd like to
talk to you about something really
important to me and I'll make sure that
we have time for when's when's a good
window sometime next week." Like I'm it
you see how much better that is than me
going, "Hey, do you have five minutes
for me to tell you about something like
you know what I mean?" And that's that's
what happens. It's and it just it comes
right on you to where nobody is nobody's
prepared. There's a book that my
housemate was reading, How to Stop
Worrying and Start Living.
>> And uh Steven CVY um and one of his
lesserknowns
in How to Stop Worrying and Start
Living, he says one of the most
important things that he used as a
tactic was to have worry time.
>> Yeah. Schedule it.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> This is something that I probably should
worry about. I'm going to wait until
Sunday. Sunday 2 p.m. That's my worry
hour or worry afternoon or whatever. And
there's something about saying, "I don't
need to do this now. I will do it and
this is when
>> that closes the loop a little bit." Pop
it in a note. You have a nice schedule.
Get a nice schedule for your worry
Sunday, your worry Sabbath.
>> And uh
>> and um
>> it means that
>> I am going to deal with it. So it
doesn't quite you've given it the love
that it needs
>> and um it feels almost like a relational
equivalent of that.
>> Yeah. And I think you should also put
pen to paper. I mean, we a lot of the
times we these things sound good in our
head until we actually say them and we
realize that that didn't hit like I
thought it would. When you actually put
pen to paper and write out what you want
to talk about, why you want to talk
about it, and when's the best time to
bring it up?
>> That gives a different sense of clarity
as to is this something I really need to
say, does it need to be said right now,
and am I the one to say it? And so, when
you're able to actually write down what
am I asking them to do? What what am I
asking them to do with this information?
Am I just venting to vent or am I asking
them to act or am I asking them to
listen? Next would be what am I what do
I want to walk away from this
conversation? Why do I need this
conversation? Maybe that's all there is
to it. But if you actually take the time
to write it down as part of whatever
habit tracking you're doing, your
conversation is going to go better than
if you just kept it all in your head and
then got upset that they didn't react
the way that you thought they would. A
good rule is I write things down so that
my brain can rest.
>> There's something about
I'm going to keep this in working memory
because I'm worried that I'm going to
forget it.
>> Mhm.
>> I need to bring this thing up and it's
emotionally charged and currently it's
endlessly unresolved, right?
>> So, I'm just going to lock those neural
pathways in. I'm going to say that thing
like a [ __ ] mantra.
>> This slight this this concern, this
worry. Whereas if it's it sounds so dumb
to have a worry list, which is what
to have a worry. I'm going to worry
about these things. Oh, and at this time
on this day,
>> right?
>> At least I don't need to keep it in
working memory because then I'll worry
that I forget my worries.
>> Yeah. And infinite regress of worrying
about worrying.
>> Yeah. And then it's just living in your
head free, you know? Then then it's
taking up all the space that you could
be using towards something else. But I
mean, worries are good, but being able
to get them out of your head, I'd say
that's even better. What does anger
usually hide?
There's a quote that I heard once
something along the lines of, "I sat
beside my good friend Anger,
and he turned to me and said, my name
isn't anger, it's grief."
And I think a lot of the times anger is
hiding fear. It's hiding sadness.
It's hiding grief. All these things that
uh are really the true bottom of that
emotion.
They say in therapy where it's
hysterical, it's historical, meaning
that it comes from something else. And
often
our emotions,
which are extremely complex, we use the
most basic language a caveman would use.
I'm sad. I'm mad. I'm angry. I'm tired.
When there's a whole
emotional vocabulary to use that's out
there of if you sift and you sift and
you sift and you sift and you ask where
is this, where is this coming from?
You find that what comes across as anger
and yelling and injustice usually comes
from a deep place of sadness.
>> Yeah. Yeah, when I look at uh an
emotions wheel, you see the sort of the
>> more surface level ones and then you
split them out into well there's
different components of anxiety or
sadness or even grief. Like those aren't
the bottom there's things that are more
precise than that. And um it makes me
think about how much diet advice for
people that want to lose weight. They
think that they need a huge number of
different recipes maybe, but you
probably have 70% of your calories
coming from the same six meals. Like
you're eating the same stuff over and
over. So what you need to do is just
take the small bucket of things that you
usually do already, right?
>> And just get a little bit better at
that. And I think with emotions, certain
people's predisposition, conditioning,
life situation, current environment,
etc., it channels them into grooves
>> of emotions that they typically default
to. Some people get mad, some people get
sad, some people get wist, some people
feel grief.
>> Yeah.
>> Some people get depressed or anxious or
whatever.
>> But if you look a little bit deeper and
if you can try and break them apart, if
you can spend a little bit of time with
them, you go,
>> it's actually not that. It's not those
five meals. If I look a little bit more
closely, it's these,
>> right?
>> And uh yeah, anger is
>> really effective at what it used to do
right before we had law enforcement.
>> Before we had law enforcement and you
crossed the line with me, I needed a
sufficiently animated response to tell
you, you crossed the line. You're not
going to do that again. And I'm going to
show you how formidable I am by being
loud and big and scary. And it's also
going to warn everybody else in the
tribe that's watching that they can't do
it to me, too.
>> Yeah.
>> Because if they do that, this will
happen and they don't want this to
happen.
>> But now that response isn't needed in
the same way. You can actually bypass
that because presuming that there's no
physical threat, you can actually
communicate it to somebody in a way
that's way more effective because anger
doesn't usually get responded to with
behavior change. that rarely if ever
does getting angry at somebody lead to
the changing their behavior. I mean, the
more the harder you push, the more
hardened they become. The more you tell
somebody they're wrong, the more
convinced they are that they're right.
And it wasn't that long ago that we did
like duels. Like you you disrespected my
honor in some way,
we're going to go shoot it out. And one
of us may be standing one not um and
thankfully we don't do that anymore. We
have increased some emotional capacity
there. But I do think that, you know,
anger is one that
you find, especially in relationships,
if you're really mad at your spouse or
partner or whatever,
if you just go a little bit deeper, it
didn't take long for that anger just to
turn into sadness. That's why a lot of
times yelling turns into tears.
>> Yeah, you see that with people.
>> Yeah, I saw this on the front door of
nightclubs a lot. So, these uh girls
would have been kicked out. Maybe they
were too drunk. Maybe they've been doing
something that they shouldn't have done
or whatever and they get kicked out
outside and it happened more with maybe
cuz guys are ashamed of allowing their
anger to turn into sadness. Or maybe
that that's not an emotion that comes
up. I'm not too sure.
>> But these girls would get kicked out.
They'd be outside. It's Newcastle, the
most northerly city in England. It's
[ __ ] freezing and it's like November
or something. And they're outside in
some tiny little party dress and they
were just having fun with their friends
and then they did something and they're
feeling injustice and they'd be shouting
and screaming. It's so funny. door staff
that are inside of a venue come and
deposit a problem that the door staff
outside of the venue now have to deal
with,
>> right? Some something happened inside
and the guys outside are now justifying
what happened. And the girls would be
shouting and screaming and like, "I've
got to go. My friends are in need.
They've got my bag. I'm what about my
coke? You can't do that. That's not
fair. She's a bitch."
>> And then very quickly that would
it would turn into a tead because it
felt like this is injustice. I'm
indignant. This isn't fair. That
shouldn't have happened to me and I'm
drunk.
>> Yeah. Yeah, that too. Well, it works the
same way with like shame, right? It's
usually shame is met with defiance and
defensiveness and anger and unfairness
when behind that is usually some type of
self-loathing sadness
>> underneath it. So, I don't see.
>> Yeah. Exactly.
>> It's it's u you know there's a
difference between shame and regret. And
usually whenever you're getting in that
cycle of I can't show my emotion,
that's that's the same reason why you
hide what you hide. It's the same reason
you have the secrets you have because
you couldn't imagine life with people
knowing and knowing you have those
emotions and feelings. And I think
especially for guys like we still feel
the same things but a lot of us have a
problem with showing it.
>> You know, we just rather go static.
rather go stoic. And that's it's it's
expressing it that's a whole lot harder.
>> What are the biggest mistakes that
people make when they're on the
receiving end of aggression?
>> That the other person
doesn't want to be understood where
there that's all there is to this
person. If you're on the receiving end
of aggression,
um, one, I think that's you need to lay
some boundaries to make sure that you're
not like assertiveness is good.
Aggressiveness says, "I don't care about
you." Then that's not that's not okay.
Um, but I think that if you find that
you're on the other side of aggression,
you're dealing with several different
levels of how you want to lay a boundary
of how I want to be spoken to. So, we
could talk about how do you respond to
something like that?
If it's somebody who means something to
you, then usually that's very telling.
Like we talked about a three a
conversation. If somebody comes in at a
seven, well, that's very telling. That
means they're having a conversation in
their head that you weren't invited to,
you know, and so it's rather than coming
at it with they have to agree with me.
It's this mindset of have something to
learn, not something to prove. And if I
can think with the outset of, I wonder
where that's coming from. I wonder why
they're responding that way. I wonder
what's happening. I wonder what would
cause that response. Then you're going
to be in a whole lot better position to
keep yourself from getting emotionally
wrapped up in responding in kind
>> with aggression. Aggression would match
aggression doesn't really go anywhere.
It just anytime that somebody comes at
you with aggressiveness and you respond,
all you've done is just told them that
you're exactly what they said that you
were. You know, you you've just proved
their point and now they're just going
to want to ratchet it up.
>> How do you think about setting
boundaries? Well,
>> you have to focus on the consequences
and be okay with it. I think that's one
of the hardest parts of boundaries.
People are okay with saying, "I'm not
good with this anymore." But their bark
is doesn't really have any bite to it.
they're not willing to accept the
consequences. For me, in simple
boundaries and conversation, and I know
boundaries get talked about a lot, it's
just simply saying one, what you're not
going to do, two, if they continue to do
this, and three, what you're willing to
walk away from. So, for example, let's
say you're saying something that's
offensive to me. I'm going to say, I
don't engage in conversation with
people, they're going to disrespect me,
respect me. If you continue to
disrespect me, Chris, this is the end of
the conversation. Maybe I have to be
willing to get up and walk away rather
than saying you can't yell at me. If I
were to turn it to I don't respond to
that volume, that's that's a whole
different power move
>> that says I'm the one that's going to be
much more in control and confident in
this conversation. The more controlled
and confident I feel, the less in
control you're going to feel.
H
I suppose the difficulty when you're the
person who is at a three and somebody
else is at a seven
is that the person at a seven doesn't
usually want to listen to somebody
that's at a three.
>> They need time to come back down.
>> Exactly.
>> And
if you want to fix if you're in the
mindset of fixing, the only way that
they're going to be able to hear you,
even if it makes it worse, is for you to
go to a seven, which puts both of you at
an eight. Exactly.
>> Uh but yeah, I um the time away, but the
time away without feeling like you're
abandoning the conversation, which is I
suppose where the clear communication
comes in, why that's so important. Yeah,
there's a difference between just saying
I'm out of here, slamming the door, and
leaving versus saying,
>> "I'm not leaving this conversation. I am
going to make sure that we take some
time because I can see you need some
space. I'm good with that.
You good with talking about this later
this afternoon?" Usually, they'll nod
their head. Yeah. Or sometimes I can
tell you when I feel like my wife and I
are on the same team is if I'll ask
something and she'll go, "I'm fine." And
I know she's not and I might ask, "You
give with talking to me about it later."
And she go, "Yeah."
>> You know what I mean? But that like you
have to be able to give that,
>> you know, to say, "Hey, I'm not I don't
want to leave this conversation. I'm not
I'm not This matters to me. If it
matters to you, matters to me.
>> Chris Voss has a slammer for getting
people who seem like they have something
on their mind to speak up when they
don't want to.
>> And it's just seems like there's
something on your mind.
>> Yeah, he's the best. I love Chris. The
seems like sounds like seems like you
have a reason for saying that. But it's
also Chris Fals's voice like
>> Yeah, of course. I mean, you hear his
voice and he could be like, you know, I
think you should give me that couch. And
I'd be like, he could tell me to suck
his dick and I'd probably
>> Yeah, probably. He's He's that good.
>> Look, his voice is
>> He's a handsome man. And also the voice.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Also the voice, you know, uh
Yeah. He's he's got a voice that
naturally just calms you down. Um this
seems like sounds like so if you
somebody says something and you go,
"Sounds like you have a reason for
saying that. Sounds like that really
matters to you. That seems like a really
big deal." They go, "Yeah, yeah, it was
a big really big deal." But it's the
same thing with like passive aggressive
people. You can use that same tactic.
>> Okay. Tell me how to deal with passive
aggressive people. So if somebody's
being passive aggressive, it's usually
something that was taught in childhood,
meaning they they've learned that their
needs weren't going to be met right in
that moment. So they would rather kind
of expect you to solve it for them. In
other words, they want you to
um they don't want to be direct. They
just expect you to find the answer. So,
it's the people that say things like,
you know, it should be nice if I was
invited to something like that. Like,
they they're they're not going to voice
it. So, they would rather kind of
they're not going to use the front door.
They're always going to use the backside
exit. And instead of
meeting that, you can say, "Sounds like
you have a reason for saying that.
Sounds like there's more to that."
Usually, they have an answer for that.
Um or if you were to say if they're
being passive, you can say I
what's coming up for you?
That's one I like to use for a lot of
different things is what's coming up.
So it has a way of
disarming people in a non-defensive
posture rather than saying what's wrong
with you.
>> I'm g say what's coming up for you?
meaning that I'm signaling that there's
something else going on in here that I'm
trying to help you bring to light. But
that sounds like seems like sounds like
you have a reason for saying that. Seems
like there's something else that you're
not saying
>> as a way of getting the passive
aggressive people. But I mean, if it's
entrenched in them, they're all they're
going to do is really double down. I
mean, I mean, it would just be nice, you
know, if somebody were to invite me to
something. But no, that's fine. I mean,
you can't you can't help the victim
mentality that's not going to switch by
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more to the genesis of the passive
aggressive person in childhood. I
thought that was interesting.
>> Yeah. Well, you think of like we just
saw on that Theo clip and how we we
respond to everything. How we were
modeled in communication and how we were
treated in children, what they call, you
know, your childhood trauma shows up all
the time. And so it comes into these
these filters that you apply. So maybe
you're in an argument with
your wife or your girlfriend or whatever
and
you felt controlled in that moment
because she made some snide comment
about what you can or can't do and what
she didn't want you to do and you didn't
like that because you get to you're a
guy who gets to decide your own thing
and all of a sudden you're voicing and
yelling at what could have been a level
three. You're now to level 11.
But really, deep down, what your body
felt was you were back to that
8-year-old boy whose mom wouldn't let
him go outside without first doing X, Y,
and Z or a a dad that made him do that
didn't make him feel safe. And so,
you're you're responding
based on old scripts. And so we all have
these old scripts like old tape
cassettes that we play anytime we feel
these big feelings of I'm being
controlled. I'm being pressured. I'm
being caged. I'm not my own person. I
don't feel safe. I'm never going to feel
safe. I'm too much. These old scripts
that we've been playing in our head. And
so we we show those all the time in the
language that we're using. So it's not
that you're seeing the person and
talking to them. It's usually it's a
reflection of something that happened in
your past that's showing back up.
>> And the passive aggressive person had
needs that weren't reliably met.
>> Yeah. It it could have been I mean the
Well, here's the the takeaway though is
that at one point in time that passive
aggressiveness had a utility to it.
There was a time when
maybe they didn't they weren't safe to
say what they actually needed.
>> Their aggression wasn't safe.
>> Their aggression wasn't safe. Voicing
anything wasn't safe. And so it was they
found that their life went better when
they didn't have to voice it. Yeah. They
they held it in and so they found some
way to to cope and expect somebody else
to read their mind rather than something
else. But there's a lot of different
things that you know that show up from
childhood that we're just big kids.
>> What about when it comes to delivering
bad news to people?
>> It's a required
life lesson like there's it's impossible
to not get around that and people get
really uncomfortable with it and usually
it's because they're feeling other
people's feelings for them like I I
don't want to say that because that's
not nice like they feel like they have
to be nice but the the real takeaway is
being choosing to be kind
says it's focus all on the the surface
the pleasant trees I can't say that I
can't tell you the truth Chris that's
not Nice. All right.
Kindness says, "I care enough about you
to tell you the truth. Because I care
about you, I need to give you this this
really hard news of what it's going to
this is what it's going to be." And you
can use labels simple as what we just
talked about a minute ago. This is going
to be some hard news. You're not going
to like what I have to say.
>> Give them a moment and then deliver the
news. But what you can't do is twist a
knife where you start to blame them
first, right? If you need to give bad
news, like imagine if I was just going
to break up with you right now, the
worst thing to do about it is all of a
sudden go,
you know, I just think you're so great,
uh, Chris and I've really enjoyed a lot
of time we start talking in past tense
as if like what do you
>> I was enjoying that stuff.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Just keep just keep going.
um to where you know you're not you're
not being straight up and being honest.
>> And often that's sometimes the kindest
thing you can do is be as direct as you
can be when it comes to sad news.
>> Let's say that you need to break up with
a partner and you're feeling super
nervous about it. How would you guide
that person through the conversation?
when I would use a label that means
rather than and this is assuming you set
aside time and you're not trying to do
it through a text message or you know
while you're
>> apparently that's go now that's looked
down on to do it over text.
>> Yeah. Yeah. It's probably not a good
idea or you're doing it in the middle of
you know a movie or something. Let's
assume you've already put good time
around this to have a good conversation.
It's to say, "I need to have a hard
conversation with you."
And then you need the first words out of
your mouth need to be.
This isn't a relationship that I can see
myself continuing in. Like you see, all
of a sudden, I'm getting right to the
point rather than saying, "I need to
have something hard. You've just been
great." And you know, it's not you, it's
me, and you know, we just been we've had
all these memories. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
instead of all that, get right to the
point. And it's it's much easier. People
can take
bad news. It's going to have a harder
impact, but the rest of it is going to
be a whole lot better for you rather
than trying to sound nice and be like, I
don't want to upset. It's all me. It's
not It's not you at all. Even though
that's softer in the moment, that
long-term impact is going to be a whole
lot worse because because you weren't
really being
>> honest
>> with me. And so even if you were need to
fire somebody, bring them in,
this news is probably going to shock
you. I need to let you go. And that's
when you get to say, I've enjoyed having
you as a a person. You've done great
with the company. Or maybe it's in a
relationship. I I I need to be out of
this relationship. I need to move on.
This relationship isn't working for me.
Whatever it is. And that's where you get
to say, I've
I've learned a lot from you. I've
learned and whatever it is, the nice
stuff, but don't start with the
pleasantries and then end with the hard.
I think Chris has another one which is
if you're saying that you can't go to an
event,
say I can't go
>> or I can't make it.
>> Yeah.
>> First,
>> right?
>> Don't say things have got so hard
recently and this chaos came up and I've
got this thing and then that at the end.
Just
>> don't bury the [ __ ] lead, dude.
>> Yeah.
>> Put it up top.
>> I very much uh align with that. So, what
I I teach is you start with the no
first. Most people start with the the
thanks first.
>> They start with the gratitude. They go,
"Thank you so much. I'd love to, but I
can't." Um, and but the word but has a
way of deleting everything that came
before it.
>> Like, I love you, but
>> you're crazy. You know, whatever.
>> That might be true. Yeah. Those things
might be true.
>> Sure. Sure they could. Um, however,
yeah, you want to start with the no
first. So,
>> I can't. Period. Then the gratitude.
Thank you so much for inviting me. Then
add in some um kindness. I'm sure it's
going to be a great time. Hope you have
a wonderful time. Knock yourselves out.
Whatever it is. But don't don't that
compliment sandwich
is a little hard to chew. Dude, I've got
a [ __ ] fantasy going on in my head of
me, you, Chris Voss, and James Sexon
doing an episode together. I'm going to
try and make that [ __ ] happen before the
end of the year. I think that would be
straight fire. I think that would be so
much [ __ ] fun.
>> And I put something in the middle of the
table that's remotely valuable or that
most people most of you guys want. I'm
like, "Hey, negotiate over this."
>> Exactly.
>> See, it's like a gladiatorial fight to
the death.
>> Yeah. Exactly.
>> And somebody somebody gets to [ __ ] I
don't know. I don't know what you got.
Um, so you're having a difficult
conversation, you're firing a member of
staff or you're breaking up with
somebody or something similar.
>> Yeah.
>> And during that conversation,
the emotions begin to come up
>> and there is always this temptation to
I must even bail out of the
conversation.
>> So like poly eject to
>> you see that somebody begins to get
upset and then the employee comes into
work tomorrow and you go I thought you
were firing them.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, exactly. What about
that? Because I think that a lot of
people enter into conversations with the
intention of doing the thing.
>> Mhm.
>> And leave a conversation having had this
weird spaghetti junction mess. Do you
know what I mean? Like when people have
difficult conversations, often they do
not they do not finish what they meant
to start. Yeah.
>> How would you navigate through that?
Okay. It's to me it's like people have
no problem 3 minutes in a cold plunge,
but give them two seconds having to be
honest with somebody in a conversation
terrifies them.
>> It's like, okay, think of it as like a
cold plunge. You start it and at the
beginning, what is it? You're trying to
catch your breath. You're trying, I
can't do this. And then all of a sudden,
what? You have some clarity and you
realize I can do this. And you realize
your body's going through this and there
will be an end to it. Same way in
difficult conversation. Yeah, it's going
to be a splash. I they have I have what
I teach is cold cold shower
conversations as as example of those of
like it's gonna it's going to be a shock
to the system at the beginning, but
we're going to see our way out of it to
where you you start to have the hard
words. You've already said, I we need to
break up. This relationship isn't for me
or I need to let you go.
>> Whatever it is, you say the hard news
and then you realize, okay, I did it.
like, okay, I I had I said the thing and
now we can have a lot more clarity. Now
you've kind of gotten over. It's way
easier to crest the mountain when you
just like go right up and then it gets
down. It's when you have a slow go up.
Yeah. Way
>> I haven't got there yet. I haven't done
it yet. There's still time for me to
avoid this mountain.
>> Exactly. Exactly. And so it's it's just
like that. So you find ways for me in my
world as an attorney.
>> I mean I grew up in courtrooms and
depositions and watching this. So, I've
seen a lot of emotional
fighting and yelling and all sorts of
hard tactics against each other. Super
adversarial. I've seen a lot of fights
of arguments.
>> Don't put me in a ring. I'm I won't be
any good in a with boxing gloves. Sean
Strickland's going to eat you alive.
>> Oh, no. No doubt. I' I'd bail out.
That's what I'd bail out. But whenever
you increase your capacity to hold other
people's emotion,
meaning you can feel all your feelings
without me holding them
and I know that I'm in control of myself
and I'm going to continue to breathing
through it and I'm not going to be
holding what you're presenting, the
better it gets. Like the more I realize
that
disappointment is part of the game. Like
to be a great leader, to be a great um
to be a good person in my world, you
have to learn the art of disappointing
people. In other words, telling them
sometimes what they need to hear, not
what they want to hear.
Makes me think about when parents of
missing children go on the news,
what is it that they always say? We just
want to know.
>> Yeah. We just want to know because the
open loop is the worst thing.
>> Yeah.
>> The open loop is where the most pain is.
And it I I'm sure that no parent would
say this, but logically it kind of makes
sense that
>> Yeah.
>> finding the child dead in some ways
would be emotionally preferable to
living for decades in the uncertainty.
>> Mhm.
>> And I mean, no parents ever going to
come out and say that. Obviously, they
actually probably don't want that, but
you understand what I mean. the closing
closing that loop is exactly what people
want, even though it's what your body is
telling you absolutely not to do.
>> Mhm.
>> So, when you're able to break up with
somebody and not leave them guessing
why, or you need to fire somebody,
whatever the hard news is, and not leave
them guessing why,
that is you acting in alignment with
integrity. That's you acting in
alignment with your values. It's it's
you going from nice guy to a good man.
>> One of the things that you mentioned
there was somebody else's emotions not
permeating you,
>> not not being absorbed by you. You're
holding yourself here.
>> Yeah.
Many people that are empathetic, people
that are highly sensitive, people who
seem to absorb the emotions of those
around them find that really difficult
>> to keep the you are there and I am here.
>> What's your advice for people to keep
that emotional sovereignty when somebody
else is getting sad
>> Mhm.
>> with them?
Well, I I' I'd want to first say that
having empathy and being able to feel
other people's emotions like that that
is a superpower. I don't think that's
something to decrease. What I don't want
you to do is to feel so much of their
feelings that you don't allow them the
other person to feel their own. In other
words, I'm afraid of disappointing you
because
you're going to be so upset. and for you
to be upset at me makes me upset and
that's going to get into my system and I
can't possibly share and do that because
they're going to be disappointed in me
and I can't take them being disappointed
at me.
That's more of the the fear there. But
for somebody who goes, I feel a lot of
feelings and you can feel yours. It's
don't pick up what any nobody asks you
to carry. Like don't don't start to feel
the weight and burden of somebody else's
feelings. Like for example, you might
have I don't know, this could be a silly
example.
You have your in-laws coming into town.
You don't really want them to stay at
your house, right? How do you how do you
do that? And you start to feel like,
"Oh, well, I'm going to have to I I need
to they're going to be so upset and
where they're it's going to cause such a
a thing." Well, if you also understand
that you have agency and they get to
choose what to do with those feelings,
you're going to come out of a much
healthier place. And I think a lot of
times we don't give the other person the
choice of what to do with their
feelings. We have to we want to fix it
all. We want to tell them what to do
with it. So, how would you navigate that
situation? What would you say? If I were
going to
if somebody like my in-laws or something
were coming in, um I would simply say I
need beginning with this the phrase I
need.
I need to make sure that here uh in this
holiday season or whatever that we're
prioritizing a lot of slowing things
down and trying to keep things quieter
in the house. and I'm going to need
y'all to find maybe I found another
hotel that you can go enjoy that instead
of having
>> Yeah, exactly. Um, a lot of the times
you we fall into the habit of people
pleasing,
>> you know, which I I think is people
pleasing to me is not a bad thing. It's
just you need to make sure that you're
one of them. You know, you need to be
able to also do what's acting in
alignment with what you're wanting.
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rpstrength.com/modernwisdom
of modernwisdom a checkout. I had this
essay that you've kicked the tripwires
of about 10 times so far today. So, I'm
going to read you a little bit of this.
I really thought it might be
interesting. I called it the shame of
small fears.
>> Oh, okay.
>> Imagine explaining modern fear to a
caveman. You see, Grrook, people today
get terrified when they have to send a
message. Gruck blinks. Message carved on
stone. No, but it's sentence on a
glowing triangle. Enemy tribe sea
message. No. Saber-tooth tiger smell
message.
No. Then why fear? Well, because the
other person might think badly of me.
Gruck cries, laughing. And yet, that's
the whole point. We inherited a nervous
system calibrated for lions, and we're
using it to navigate awkward
conversations and underwhelming careers.
Evolution never updated the software. It
just repurposed it. Your ancestors
needed courage to keep their bodies
alive. You need courage to keep your
identity intact. It's almost comic when
you zoom out. The same species that once
stared down hungry predators now breaks
into a sweat trying to say something
needs to change. But it's not because
we've become pathetic. It's because the
monsters changed shape. Old dangers
could kill your body. The new ones
threaten your belonging. Your whole
biology gears up for exile from the
village that now only exists as a group
chat. Your body still thinks you'll die
alone in the wilderness if you tell the
truth. It's the residue of a limbic
system designed for a world that no
longer exists.
>> That seems to be it's not about the
fear, it's about the shame in your fear.
A lot of the time I think people realize
>> I I am the progeny of people who
survived ice ages.
>> Mhm.
And I'm getting worried about having to
tell this person that they crossed the
line with me or having to enforce a
boundary.
>> Yeah.
>> Hey,
I I've had a long year. I'm stressed.
And
>> I love your mother, but she's a lot.
Okay.
>> And and and so her house is really great
this time of year.
>> Yeah.
>> And I got a discount. Okay. I go.
>> Uh but the
>> Yeah,
>> it really is the case. It's like um the
sensitivity on a system. It's the same
reason that we have gyms. We have gyms
because we have removed the need to pick
up heavy objects from our normal daily
life,
>> right?
>> So, we have to artificially create this
thing. And if it wasn't for the gym,
everybody would be flabby messes, right?
And purposeful physical training because
the whole uh stress on our system, the
whole home meis has got turned down.
It's kind of the same here too. the
your uh lyic system will attenuate
itself to the maximum amount of
discomfort that you have which means now
that a hard conversation might be the
most difficult thing that you do that
year.
>> Yeah.
>> Like that one conversation firing that
one member of staff might be the mo. So
yeah, you're going to feel it. And I
think what I'm trying to get at, what I
tried to get at with that incredibly
long essay, which I spared you the rest
of, is there's a lot of shame that
people have around
>> this this fear is so small? Why
why do I feel like this? You go, well,
cuz it's still a big deal because yeah,
you have
>> a limbic system that was made to avoid
bears and is now worried about your
belonging. Yeah, I think most people
they don't have a hard time with
fighting. They have a hard time being
honest.
>> And it's funny how honesty can sometimes
be the hardest thing that that you're
going to do because you're laying bare
your wants, your needs, whatever it is
for your relationship, for your
business, for the home, for your
friends, whatever. And it's the same the
same exact thing as what the essay says.
Like I I may not throw a punch, but I'm
gonna throw a word that's gonna hurt.
Like I'm not gonna pick up a rock and
throw it, but I'm going to want a word
to cut. You know, I'm going to want I my
words can either hurt you or heal you.
And if I self-improve everything about
me, but I don't improve what comes out
of my mouth, that's that's a Formula 1
car without a steering wheel. like it
looks great, that's awesome, but where
where you going to go with it? And so I
think if you don't apply the same type
of mindset of improving your body as you
do the words when we talk about
emotional vocabulary when we talk about
actually working through how to have
conversations and being honest being
dare I say vulnerable with things.
There's a lot of people who it's just
they're a empty house but have a great
looking landscape, you know, like you
just can't you you have to understand
that
the conversation like you said like
you're going to have all year long,
>> those are much harder and take a lot
more courage than anything you can do at
the gym. I agree. I agree. And I think a
lot of the time people are going there
precisely for that reason. Uh people
will spend
years in misery to avoid a few minutes
of pain.
>> Yeah.
They say that the
the
like the conversation you're avoiding is
the result you're choosing.
>> Like if you if you if you choose not to
have that conversation, well, you're
getting that result. Then you're going
to live with that result. But it doesn't
have to be that way. And I think it's in
therapy they say like the the
breakthrough you're avoiding is the work
or Yeah. Yeah. the the breakthrough
you're needing is in the work you're
avoiding the being able to get through
that that conversation. Like you you can
have you can be the fittest person but
still the same on the inside. It's not
like it's improved anything about what
you're gonna how you're gonna have um in
your in your life. And there's no
metric. That's the wildest thing. If
like we're able to watch our HRV and
make sure you're in all the zone 2
cardio and all the other stuff I got to
whoop, too. Like to be able to do all
that physical discipline. That's all
great, but there's no metric on
sitting on the couch with your son in
your lap and also having your phone in
your hand. You know what I mean? or
being able to
say something really hard to the person
that you love to mend relationships with
family members you haven't seen in a
long time.
That
that's a whole lot different metric that
there's just no number for. It's a quiet
victory or a boring success.
>> Yeah.
>> And yeah, we trade observable metrics
for hidden metrics all the time.
>> Mhm.
>> All the time. You know, you'll take a
job that
pays 10 grand more a year, but is a 45
minute commute instead of 15. You go,
okay, well, you can't really see the
commute in quite the same way. What does
that mean? And how much more stressed do
you I'm gonna have to miss a couple of
evenings with the kids and I'm going to
spend less time with or you uh move to a
new area in a house that's bigger but
the stress of being there puts strain on
your relationship and it means that you
go to bed and the texture of your mind's
a little bit more agitated.
>> Yeah. For a decade while you live there.
>> Hidden metric. Observable metric. Post
code very observable. Peace of mind very
hidden.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> And uh because there's this idea the
Magnamara fallacy. Do you know that? So
Robert McNamara during the Vietnam War,
he was charged with trying to uh make
sure that the war was moving in the
right direction. And what he was
focusing on were uh enemy combatant
deaths and US forces deaths. But that
wasn't what mattered. What mattered was
the sentiment at home.
Issue is very hard to quantify the
sentiment at home in the US. And
obviously the Vietnam war was hugely
unpopular domestically in the US.
>> Mhm.
>> And it ends with this line which is we
intend to
uh
measure what matters but instead we only
matter what matters to us is only what
we can measure.
>> Mhm. So this weird inversion of us
supposedly trying to focus on the
quantifiable and pull it in, but instead
whatever is quantifiable is what what
gets pulled in.
>> Exactly. Yeah. It's it's um I think
there's a lot of different paradoxes
like that in life. Like for me, what
I've learned through this transition
from full-time lawyer being able to talk
on communication is
I thought it was what's best for the
business is what's best for the family.
Like I could look at these hard metric
numbers whether it's more money, more
time or whatever the however the
increase
>> more more 10x whatever is best for my
family. when in reality what's best for
the family is what's best for the
business.
>> What's best for the family is what's
best for the business. And like that's
not something I can track but that's
something fallacy.
>> Yeah. But that's something I can feel.
>> Unreal. What about if you're having a
conversation with someone and it feels
like they're not understanding you. It's
getting frustrating.
>> Yeah. If you go, "Okay, I'm trying to
I'm not saying this the right way." and
you feel like there's they're butdding
up against that in that time, then I
would take it piece by piece. So I would
one, are you giving them the takeaway?
Are you giving the headline at the
beginning or are you putting it down in
the footnotes? So one is how are you
approaching the conversation? How are
you framing the conversation? Because if
you've buried the lead, like you said,
that is typically going to lead into a
lot of miscommunication.
Next, I would question
the the biggest like myth in
communication is what is sent is what is
received
I all the time I can in my own
relationship
she could say well no you said this I
didn't say that you said yes you did no
that's not what I said she I wish I had
a video camera in here so I could have
seen exactly how you said that so you
could see and and instead of this
mindset of that's not what I said and
trying to push that miscommunication.
Instead, ask what did you hear? What did
you hear? And if I can ask the question,
what did you hear? And them to actually
explain what I'm hearing is X, Y, and Z.
You have to stop. Okay, that right
there,
>> that's not at all my intent. I think
that's where we're going wrong. So, it's
it's the ability to one slow down. Two,
find the actual breaking point. And that
that usually requires a okay, here is
what I'm trying to convey. I'm not
asking you to fix anything. I just need
you to hear that this means something to
me.
>> And sometimes the other person's like,
"Oh, okay. So, you want me to do this or
you want me to do this or you want me to
fix this?" Like, "No, no, no, no. I I
don't. No, I need Let's go back again.
Okay. What are you hearing?" And they
go, "Well, I hear that you need me to
go. I guess I'll never be able to do
this again. No, no, no. That's not at
all. Right. Usually when people are
going to extremes or absolutes, the
always and nevers is a very clear sign
that they're not engaged in the
conversation. Instead, they're playing
an old script that is well then you just
you just want me to do everything you
want me to do. Um, and so if you're able
to actually break it down and go piece
by piece, okay, what did you hear at
this here? This is this is the
miscommunication. Okay, when I bring
this up, what's coming up for you? Cuz I
can tell something else is happening.
>> Like then you get into a little bit of
the emotion of it of where where are you
feeling defensive? So when I can voice
that this other person's voicing, I can
tell I'm getting defensive. I can tell
I'm not ready for this conversation. I
can tell I'm getting worked up. Like
that's really helpful information. I
think I saw some study on if it was like
if somebody's heartbeats over 100 BPM,
like it's almost impossible to like
bring somebody back down very quickly.
Like it's not a good time to have a a
very Yeah. Yeah.
>> Over 100 BPM your front brain is
basically turned off.
>> It's gone. Yeah. And and you're you're
having to make sure that the other
person's they're going to quickly be
disregulated in that moment.
>> Have you seen Jared? Can you pull that
up? Uh just
search uh Reddit
divorce heart rate on Google and um this
guy I think he was wearing like a
garment or something and he tracked his
heart rate through the conversation
>> yes
>> that he had with his wife. And the
reason I say it is you're going 100 BPM.
100 BPM is heart rate in 5second
intervals when wife asks for a divor I
love how he's put via Fitbit charge too.
It's like it's a sponsored post.
>> That's awesome.
>> Yeah. Resting BPM. So, dude, he's got
he's got a nice resting BPM. He's down
at 60 and he's awake. He's a fit guy.
>> He's doing great.
>> Yeah. Well, he's got a Fitbit Charge 2
on, so he's obviously been tracking it
for a while. Can we talk? Can we talk?
Keeps him quite uh
>> he's regulating. So hang on. How what
are the interval? That's five minutes.
Five minute intervals at the bottom.
Okay.
>> Is this 1:15 in the [ __ ] morning? I
think that's 1:15 in the morning.
>> Unless it's on It's 24. Yeah,
>> it should be on military time.
>> Yeah, you're right.
>> Um and uh Okay. Can we talk? He manages
to hold on to it.
>> Timing has a lot to do with this. That's
true.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, there's a spike
just before.
I don't think this is healthy for either
of us. So, she's Can we talk? And a full
What's that? 6 minutes later, she's
still not given the lead. Yep.
>> Unless he's Well, there's no way that's
got to be the spike.
>> Now, look. Yeah. You see the spike right
before the dip before I don't think this
healthy for either of us. Most likely
that's like his anxiety. He's realizing
what's going on. I can tell something's
wrong
>> cuz he's kept regulated there, right?
>> Yeah, bro. He He hits 155 160. He's in
zone three or four depending on how old
he is.
>> And then he has a huge drop and then
back up again.
>> Mhm.
>> I wonder if that's just a release of
>> Yeah.
>> [ __ ] He just got the news and now he's
like, "What am I going to do?"
>> Yeah.
>> I think there is that release of like
knowledge of now I know
>> cuz I mean maybe he it came out of
>> but look he comes right back at I mean,
he's right there close to 150 again. And
>> how long does the whole thing take? 115
resting BPM, can we talk 120?
>> 20 minutes, no, dude. 20 20 minutes.
They're in and out and he's off on a
walk. So, yeah. Yeah. Anybody that
thinks that 100 BPM is uh is hard to hit
in a difficult conversation, homeboy
managed to get 150% of that.
>> Yep. Went off for a walk. Good. Good.
That's a good one.
>> It's going to hit last call somewhere
real quick,
>> dude. Exactly,
>> dude. I remember the first ever
Thanksgiving that I did in uh America. I
was living at an Airbnb on South
Congress and it's directly opposite the
Red Rose, which is Austin's premier
adult establishment.
>> And um it was I'd been to I'd been to
Blair White's house. If you know who
Blair White is, it's a uncomfortably hot
trans influencer. Uh and Lex Friedman
was there with Michael M. It was a very
strange Avengers autistic Avengers
assemble. And then we got back to where
I was staying at the Airbnb.
This is 10:00 p.m. 10:30 p.m. or
something on Thanksgiving. And the
entire car park was full. All of the
street outside was completely full. It
was like it must have been standing room
only in the strip club. And I remember
thinking,
how bad's your Thanksgiving had to be
>> at 10 p.m. to go, that's it. I'm sick.
Are your parents I that I I cannot
>> any longer be I'm going I'm I'm going to
the Red Rose again. Are you
>> off to see Crystal? Oh, I hope she'll
cook your [ __ ] dinner and wash your
socks. I was like, okay, here we go. But
I I just
the British mind cannot comprehend what
level of freedom Americans have
apparently around Thanksgiving,
including being able to go to the Red
Rose 10 p.m.
>> Holidays are are hard for people and
Thanksgiving's hard. Christmas is hard
usually because it can be sometimes a
reminder that they're alone.
>> Yeah.
>> And um I mean there's no place lonelier
>> than this strip club.
>> Yeah. Yeah. You can be surrounded by
people and still feel very alone. Yeah.
And that's why what you're looking for
some very
illusion of companionship,
>> you know, so they they uh they're
they're in pain and they're looking for
some way to find a a salve.
How should people respond to an insult
with a lot of silence? You say something
ugly to me, I'm going to give it about 5
to 7 seconds on nothing.
meaning I'm going to allow your words as
if I see them just to fall to the this
table here and give you a moment of like
you good with that like you still you
still proud of that right there you can
take it back if you like but I'm not
taking it and it's that it's that that
mindset of I'm not taking it I don't
have to pick it up that's not mine
because we get so used to catching just
because somebody threw we feel like we
automatically have to catch it's like
it's Not it's not tennis. It's not
volleyball. You don't have to hit it
back over a net. You can just let it be
there. So 5 to 7 seconds of nothing in
that silence. Two, what I like to do is
usually ask them to repeat it.
Yeah.
Yeah. That's I I usually will say, "I
need you to I need you to say that
again."
I've yet to have anybody who could do it
because it's like they they they don't
want to show
they're ugly. They don't want that
highlighted. They don't they know what
they just said. And now what they were
expecting was that hit of dopamine of me
giving it right back to them and feeling
that sense of control.
>> I've now put a big spotlight on their
behavior and then it's just it's not fun
at that point. They're like, "Ah, I got
to get out of here." Like, that's was
that that wasn't the hit that I was
expecting. And when I say, "I need you
to repeat that," or, "I need you to say
that again,"
they're going to have to remember their
words and regurgitate them.
>> And that usually it's people don't like
to extend past this feeling of being
reasonable. Now, I know people will go,
"Oh, I know lots of people are
unreasonable." Listen, I have deposed
probably thousands of people. I've seen
lots of liars and manipulators. They
never want to come across as
unreasonable. Yeah. Yeah. People who are
like manipulating you, they're not
afraid of
of
anger. They're afraid of calm. And
whenever I can show you that I'm not
rising and going, "How dare you?" Like
getting this who do you think you are
kind of bow up. Um, it's almost more
scary to them if you I need you to say
that again. Now, most of the time what
they do is they try and like Well, I
mean what I I mean I mean and they try
to like justify it. Exactly. Uh and try
and adjust in some way or I guess they
could double down. If they do double
down and repeat it, then you get to say
I thought so. Thanks.
>> Like just let it go. Because at that
point you're still just leaving them.
They're going to remember what they said
and you're not going to be the one to
remember it at all. So, it's dad.
Another that I like to ask is it's this.
Did you mean did you mean for that to
sound as insulting as it did? Did you
mean for that to embarrass me in some
way? Did you mean for that to offend me
or hurt me or belittle me? Or did you
did you want me to feel less when you
said that? Whenever you talk about
intents, the did you mean? Did you
intend to? Did you say that in order to,
it questions the very root of their
heart in that moment of like why did
they really say that? And they said that
to hurt you
>> to to cause that pain. And at the same
time, maybe you just took it the wrong
way like in text message. Usually, we
have a way of reading everything
negative in a text message. We never
read things positive, right? you I I
could text you, we need to talk and
nobody gets that and goes like sick.
Yes, let's go. Let's Chris wants to
talk. Let's let's get after it. Let's
go. Uh we always read the negative. And
so did you mean is also a great way of
double-checking. Did you mean for that
to sound like my wife and I if I
sometimes reply really quickly, she'll
say, "Did you mean for that to sound
short?" No, no, I didn't mean to. I was
just in the middle of pickup or I was at
a grocery line or whatever. It's
>> you're allowing that that benefit of the
doubt for a second.
>> In both of those situations,
>> uh, where it's not ambiguous about
whether or not that was a mean message
or not,
>> right,
>> what you're doing is bringing the
person's ugliness
to the front.
>> Yep.
>> Because Yeah, you're right.
Even when people say mean things, they
feel justified in their meanness.
>> Mhm.
>> You deserved it,
>> right?
>> Or
I'm righteous somehow.
>> And
with enough room for the heat to die
down a little bit.
Three.
>> Mhm.
>> Four. Five. Six. [ __ ] Seven.
>> It's a long time.
>> Very. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh and to
then basically say
do the thing again but without the heat
that powered it when you did it the
first time like you you've run out of
fuel.
>> Exactly.
>> And you're now going to have to
>> look at it
>> in a more sterile environment.
>> Right.
>> More plain environment.
>> Mhm.
>> And
I'm just going to ask I'm not going to
infer. I'm going to ask whether the
outcome that happened after you said
that thing was what you meant and that
is you admitting to your own intent
>> around this.
>> Exactly. It's like you um
like imagine having to ask a girl out
and she's like, "Well, I didn't hear
you. Never mind." Like you don't want to
you don't want to ask it again. It's
that feeling of like I already I already
said it.
>> You said you're so hot.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Exactly. That's right. Um, and
then all of a sudden you you realize,
no, that that didn't feel good at all.
And now it's now they just they don't
want the cheese. They just want out of
the trap. You know, they just get me get
me out of here. And they're not they're
not going to want to do that because the
making them say it again is just
it's just revealing they're ugly and
darkness hates light.
>> You know, you were talking about
inviting someone to What are you
hearing? What are you hearing from me?
What is it? What what did you just hear
me say?
>> Yeah.
>> How are you interpreting that? You know,
the idea of a steel man.
>> Mhm.
>> Uh and a straw man, right? So, straw man
representing the weakest version of
someone's argument. Steelman, me saying,
>> "So,
we're in a debate, but what I think
you're trying to say is, and I put
across the best version, the best
possible version of your argument,
>> that's good. What you're doing with the
invitation is like a reverse steelman.
>> Mhm.
>> Or an invited steelman. You're saying,
"Can you tell me
>> Mhm.
>> what you're hearing me say?"
>> Yes.
>> And then ah, okay. So, no, not quite.
And the same thing with the reason that
you do the steelman is so I go, "Okay,
so Jeffson, what what I'm hearing from
you is this and this and this. Is that
right?" And you go, "Well, actually, no.
You're just saying, "Hey, come do the
steelman thing for me." Yes. And then if
there's anything that's not fully
understood, and you're doing the same
thing with the insult to a degree, it's
like inviting this person to almost
steal the the nuclear warhead that they
just dropped on you,
>> right?
>> You
probably more like a septic tank than a
nuclear warhead. Uh you know,
>> exactly.
>> You know this big puddle of [ __ ] that's
in front of us?
>> Yeah. Is that [ __ ] or is it soup?
>> Cuz I can't to me it looks and smells a
lot like [ __ ]
>> And uh just making sure that we're not
confu I'm not confusing what this is.
>> Yeah, there's a lot of there's actually
this like hidden power around tell me
what I'm missing. Tell me what I like
I'm missing something here. Something
else is going on
>> and I need you to tell me what I'm
missing. So, lots of times I'll be in a
deposition and I'll have somebody who is
I know I've caught them in a lie.
There's lots of people lie under oath
all the time and they have no problem
with it. And because I know cuz I have
the evidence right here and they just
don't know that I have it.
And so it's often the people who it's
most blatant like they it's just an easy
they didn't have to lie about it like
they could have just fallen on the sword
but they're they're so contradictory
that they can't possibly not. So, if
it's like if I were to tell you,
I feel like you're really upset, and
they go, I'm not upset. I'm just like,
it doesn't matter what emotion I said,
they're going to always tell me, I know,
it's not that I'm I'm I'm okay, it's
just I'm it doesn't matter what it is,
they're always going to contradict that.
And so, when I know I'm up against that
kind of person,
you have to do this
searching with like where questions
matter a whole lot more than statements.
Meaning, if I'm going to ask a question
that is more open-ended,
I'm getting I'm signaling to this aspect
of what am I missing here? I hear you
telling me this.
I'm missing where you're getting to
that. Same way with the insult.
What am I? You say that I'm, you know,
the whatever the worst thing. I need you
to say that again because something's
missing because it's not hitting me the
same way you want it to hit me.
>> So where is that coming from? And and
and that right there is the the wamp
feeling, you know, the blanket wet
blanket of Exactly. sad emoji for them
of like I've it didn't it didn't work.
What was missing was they were actually
intending to cause pain because they're
in pain and it felt better for them to
cause you pain than actually deal with
their own emotions. It's a much more
sophisticated approach than
even trying to lean into empathy
immediately if you'd say it sounds like
that. It sounds like you're really upset
when someone says something mean cuz
that feels like an elevated kind of
communication. Yeah. It could be
sarcastic. Yeah. But yeah, but even if
you say it, you know, um genuinely go
feels like you're upset when you're
doing that. It's also like I
you're putting a kind of interpretation
on this person's language as opposed to
just allowing them to clarify it for
you. And I I keep on having this image
in my head of giving somebody a ton of
rope.
>> You're just giving them as much rope as
they want and they can choose to climb
up it and get out or they can [ __ ]
hang themselves with it.
>> Yeah. I I see this a lot in depositions
or cross-examination where I know that
they're lying. I know they are. And I
could just say, "You're lying." You
think that's going to get them to admit
it? No, never. They're gonna they're
gonna double down. How dare you accuse
me of whatever? Cuz they don't. But if
they tell the lie and I slow it down and
I open a folder and I look and I close
and I give that five to seven seconds
and I say,
"I need you to tell me that again." I
mean, they just go, "Uh, uh, I mean, I
mean, why would you why would you think
I would do this?" Like, they start
questioning things that don't really Why
you think that I would do something like
that? What What do you think? They're
asking you to like solve the solve the
problem.
>> Get done that. Give me a suit. You come
up here.
>> Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so, it's
um it's
liars, manipulators,
they they want the anger, but they fear
the calm. And so when you're able to in
those moments of somebody doing
something offensive
>> to show a calm, controlled
approach, that's what they don't like.
Like imagine you saying something that's
a lie and I'm saying,
"Yeah, I'm going to need to come back to
that later." Like it's the worst because
they want you to swallow hookline and
sinker. They they like the fast rapid.
They took it. That's also closure for
sure, right? It's open loops. So much of
this is there's the loops that have been
left open for small amounts of time or
for even longer amounts of time.
>> They're the ones that are things are
going on the insult thing. British
people have a trend of pushing and
pushing and then saying only joking,
mate. It's only a joke.
>> How do you deal with someone who pushes
you and then retreats to I was just
joking?
>> It depends how well you know them. I
think if if for some of these responses
like if somebody says I was just joking
I usually like to say then I need you to
be funnier is what I usually say or I'll
say then I need you to find new material
you know then we need to re let's
workshop that one then a little bit
>> but if it's something that you feel like
they are
maybe you don't know them that well and
they say hey I'm I'm I'm just I'm just
joking.
I don't let it I don't like it to slide.
Meaning you just go, "Oh, okay. That's
that's fine." And then, you know,
they're just going to walk over you
again. Like, that's we're not going to
walk on eggshells with that. But if you
were to say, "I know that wasn't a joke
or that's not a doesn't sound like a
joke. Sounds like an issue." Like that's
a a lot. So much of this is being the
bigger person in conversation. And that
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times. What do you think are the most
common phrases that make people sound
weak?
Usually beginning with I'm sorry, but
that's
one that I'm sorry, but you don't really
mean it. I I don't mean any disrespect,
but I don't want this to sound rude, but
yeah, you do. Or else you wouldn't be
saying it like that.
You just delete those and say what you
need to say
>> from after the bug.
>> From after the bug. Exactly. That's it's
it's just hedging. Another is where
people uh they cut out the legs
underneath their sentences before they
even get them out. Like, yeah, I hate to
bother you, but um I mean, I could be
wrong about this, but I mean, you
probably know better than me, but it's
all these like hedging that makes them
sound really, really weak in the
conversation. That is something that's
it's it's it's unnecessary. A lot of the
I thinks, I believes,
I think in casual conversation, it's not
a problem. But if you're wanting to
sound assertive,
the I thinks and I believes, you can
just replace them with I'm confident
that
instead of like I believe I'd be a good
asset to this company, it's I'm
confident I'd be a good asset to this
company and they'd write down, man, he
sounds so confident. You know, it's it's
just it's pure language choice.
>> You know, I learned from my academic
friends. I hedge sometimes because I'm
wholly unqualified to talk about pretty
much everything I talk about. And it's
important to caveat especially if you're
like
>> for sure I'm I'm in bro science
territory here and I learned I learned
uh that academics have an equivalent for
that. They say
>> it's directionally correct that
directionally correct dude is the
[ __ ] hey 5149 or 991 I'm
directionally correct either way. If I
know that this is at least in this side
of the fence, I got it. I love I It's
directionally correct that men are
stronger than women on average. Yeah.
Their upper body strength on average as
well is wonderful. You hide so many
things in
>> say anything on
>> on average.
>> On average.
>> Yeah. I mean on average you just
literally need to be better than 50%
right.
>> So it's a it's a good start. You
mentioned um assertiveness.
>> Yeah.
Where does self asssurance come from in
your opinion?
>> It's tied a lot to confidence. So I I
teach that confidence is as assertive
does. Meaning if you want to feel more
confident, you need to say more
assertive things. And most often we get
taught and seen that the most confident
people are the loudest, the I don't
know, the broest of any of it when it's
actually the person who's the most
controlled, the one who's the calmst.
>> Carth dergating the bros.
>> Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Not at all. Not at
all. Would never if like being able to
say
who's going to be the most emotionally
reactive
>> when things hit the fan because they
will hit the fan. Yeah. Um, and making
sure that how do you know if you're
who's the captain of the ship? It's who
has the highest threshold for conflict.
You know, that that's that's going to be
one of the biggest markers right there.
Like confident people don't need to say
it to know that for you to know it. Like
I I don't have to say it to make sure
that I know it or you know it.
I um I think my grandfather told me once
of like little dogs yip at everything
but big dogs only have to bark once.
Like it's it's that kind of mentality of
knowing that I don't I don't have to
have a comment for every little thing.
>> The most [ __ ] Texan quote of all
time. Little dogs and big dogs.
>> That's right. Little dogs. Yeah. Big
dogs bark. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
>> Uh have you heard the term veagal
authority?
I didn't know but it sounds like
something I would learn and
>> it sounds like something that you would
love. So
>> Joe Hudson who Charlie introduced me to
>> has got this idea of veagal authority
and what he means is
>> in a room or in an interaction
whose nervous system is dictating how
everybody else moves.
>> Everybody's in different levels. Some
people are at eights, some people are at
threes.
Where does the room go? Especially in a
one-on-one, who's got the veagal
authority
>> between the two of us?
>> Interesting. So, who's who's the
thermostat?
>> Yeah. Who's dict who's dictating this?
>> Who's the thermostat? Oh, I mean, you're
>> Yeah,
>> you're the host, so
>> Oh, well, [ __ ] me. I'm not I'm not I'm
not going to dick measure you in who's
got more more veagal authority cuz I am
going to lose. Um, but
>> I just love that term. The first time
that he ever said it, I thought veagal
authority is
>> I think that's right. is such a
wonderful way to think about what it is.
We talk about nervous system capacity or
emotional resilience and that sounds
great but it's very abstract.
>> Mhm.
>> Veagal authority and just defining it as
in an interaction
>> whose nervous system is in charge,
>> right?
>> Are you both going to compromise and
meet in the middle?
>> Right?
>> Are you going to stay where you are? you
going down to where that I mean
obviously you could have veagal
authority at Nate and be like hey come
up to me [ __ ] like
um but assuming that you're coming at
this from the right side of the fence
>> so
>> it sounds like a lot of what you're
talking about is your version of veagal
authority that's probably right there's
a lot of conversation the same way they
say show up like you've been there
before the same way in conversation uh
meaning you can you can say something
and have an emotional reaction. And like
we talked about at the very beginning,
those that beautiful moment of like my
capacity is large enough to take any of
this and all of this. And so if you're
in a meeting and you walk in, who who's
the thermostat who's going to be
controlling the temperature of the room?
And if you're the one that has to chime
in on every single thing, who's
emotionally reactive at the smest the
smallest little inconvenience,
uh somebody who it's it's usually
it's if somebody
like cusses a lot.
>> Mhm.
>> There it's usually a sign of emotional
reactivity of like I'm I'm getting
really hyped or low on something
>> or they're British.
>> Yeah. Or they're British. Yeah. Sure.
Yeah.
>> And to be able to
versus the person who has a very high
threshold to where they don't say
everything they could say like they have
opinion but they don't need to voice it.
In other words, for it to have any
validity. They know that they know it.
They don't have to name drop. They know
that they have value. They don't have to
talk about how much their company sold
for. Like they they don't need to say
it. They know what kind of car they
drive without having to be flashy. Like
it's it's the it's the understatement of
knowing that you know walk silently with
a big stick.
>> What is it that makes someone sound
composed?
>> A calm voice. There's a voice that
sounds warm. Voice that sounds in a
lower register.
Words that are spaced out more.
If I talk really fast all the time and
you can't really catch up with my
message and I'm really like just it's
going to naturally make you more
anxious. Like we all have those people
in our life that just to be around them
you feel a little bit more anxiety.
>> Um those tend to be people who are the
sky is falling. We have to have they're
very very fast when they talk. They're
very quick to make judgments and choices
and decisions about how they're going to
feel and how this is going to go versus
slowing it down. weighing
and knowing that the best type of
choices are ones that have been
intentionally thought of. Like it's say
for example,
if you ask me a question and I
immediately just have an answer right
off the bat versus you ask me a question
and I
take a breath and I think about it and
then I answer which one sounds more
composed. It's not going to be the one
that's all hyped up. is going to be the
one that's a little bit more slower.
Like if you think of people that
who are the most composed in your life,
the generally the people that make you
feel the most comfortable.
And to me, I like the aspect. I've
always compared it to just the feeling
of warm feeling of you're welcome here.
Yeah. You can disagree with disagree
with me, that's welcome, too.
No, I I I see it between nice guy and
good man. A nice guy wants to be liked.
A good man wants to be worthy. Like, how
do I how do I show you my words that
you're worth my time and this
conversation is worth my time. I I do
that not by trying to rush you out the
door or look for the next person to talk
to while I'm talking to you at the
networking event or small talk.
>> So, I'm I'm choosing to give you my
time.
>> What's the difference between being
assertive and being an [ __ ]
Assertiveness says I can respect you and
I can respect the other person or
respect myself. Let me say that
differently. So there's like a spectrum
of somebody who's passive versus
somebody who's aggressive and then
assertiveness is in the middle. Aggress
aggression says I don't respect you.
Somebody passive says I don't respect
me. Assertiveness saying I can respect
both of us. Meaning I can lay up my
boundary and I can still like you. Like
I mean my dad would say all the time,
you know, I'm need to discipline. He
doesn't mean I don't love you. You know,
I I need to I need to do this. I need to
have this conversation. And it's because
I love you that I'm going to have this
conversation. And when you come to terms
with
I can
want all the good things for you and
also say I'm not going to tolerate that.
>> Both things can be true.
>> What about being an [ __ ]
What about it?
>> I think a lot of the time when people
think they're being assertive,
they are leaning into assholeery.
>> And is that a word?
>> Correct. Okay. Of the two of us, I'm
aware that you've done a thousand plus
2,000 depositions, but uh it's our
language.
>> Yeah. I will remind you it's our
language.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Although it is my taxes and your
country, so I better be careful. Um,
a lot of the time people mistake
bruskness and uh uh callousness like
like uh socially acceptable callousness.
It's the same as being assertive. I'm
going to say this thing in a way that's
unnecessarily
tuss or or cutting or
unconsiderate, I think. Mhm.
>> And that's the same as being assertive.
And a lot of the time I see people who
are [ __ ]
that people see as unlikable, assertive
people,
>> if that makes sense.
>> Yeah. I think a lot of the time
the boundary of [ __ ] and
assertiveness
functionally can sometimes deliver the
same outcome which is
I'm going to say you bully the person
into getting what you want but you you
sort of state you you state your
intention
>> Mhm.
>> without apology. Right. That's something
that the [ __ ] and the assertive
person have in common.
>> Mhm. Uh but the difference is that the
assertive person is doing it from a
place of compromise pro-socialness. The
[ __ ] is doing it almost to show off
to look good to be unconsiderate. One
that's it. One is considerate and the
other is unconsiderate. At least as far
as I can see.
>> Yeah. And I'd say one is selfish, the
other can also be supporting. I mean
it's I would say that the person who
wants to be assertive has both people in
mind. The other does not. So I think the
considerate inconsiderate
the
the person who always has to win the
argument is the person who typically
loses everything.
>> You've got uh 10 specific ways to
practice assertiveness.
What is the one that most people skip?
Oh,
being intentional with your words.
Meaning, they find that the more words
they use, the more believable they'll
sound. And just the opposite, it's it's
this idea of the more words you have to
use to tell the truth, the more it
starts to sound like a lie, more it
sounds like you don't really know what
you're talking about. The more words you
have to use to explain something that
should be relatively easy to explain.
So, excessiveness, oversharing, saying
too much.
It's a very quick way to
miscommunication because you're giving
them.
Do have Do you know I don't Do you know
Golden Corrals? Like buffets? Ever heard
of those?
>> It's not a place you'd probably go to.
But I look
>> Hold hold hold your thought on Golden
Corrals and where you're going. Okay. I
I need I need to I need to make this
statement to a person who's lived in the
south of America for a good while.
>> Okay.
As a British person, I feel I have a
more accurate understanding of American
cuisine than Americans do.
>> That's probably true. And this is
because Denny's and IHOP and Cheesecake
Factory are elite establishments. Good.
Thank you.
>> Okay. You do understand so many
Americans look down their nose at what
are objectively wonderful places to go
and eat. Denny's
coffee at 2 in the morning. Unlimited
refills. Yeah, the cinnamon pancake
stack.
>> Don't you dare.
>> Fantastic. Very good. Very good. Very
good.
>> As Theon once said, uh you can see a
woman giving birth in there sometimes.
>> You just don't know what you're going to
get. You never know sometimes.
>> Yeah, I hope so.
>> Um
>> so Golden Corral as yet. Not been to.
However, I did go to a Cracker Barrel. I
really like it.
>> Nice.
>> I want to go I only want
>> Peg game.
>> Peg. Pegging.
>> Oh, no. Let's not go there. It's the
It's the game that's like a wooden
triangle and you have the T's that's
like
>> that's not the pegging that I'm
familiar.
>> Yeah. No, no, you're you would be I
don't I don't know that.
>> Again, British.
>> Um
>> what I did like and I refuse now to go
to any restaurant where I can't buy any
item of furniture or art on the wall.
>> Yeah, there's a little general store.
>> I want to go I want to go I want to be
like, "How much is that?" That's the
sir. That's That's somebody's daughter.
She's not for sale. They're like, "I
don't care. She looks like she's pinned
on the wall. That's going to be we
that's that's she would look wonderful
about above the fireplace.
>> Yeah, you can you can have all the
blankets and you know how do you take it
all? Pop guns that you want. How do you
take it all? Uh Golden Corral. Yeah, we
were talking about um where sometimes
you're giving people too many options to
choose in the conversation. Meaning the
the meaning is going to get lost. Your
Cheesecake Factory menu.
>> You're absolutely. Yeah, exactly.
Anyway, we can talk more about the
Cheesecake Factory. I'm all for it.
>> I'm so glad that I found a Kindred
Spirit. I knew I liked you, but now like
I really like Really? Yeah. Let's just
talk about the cheesecake menu. Let's
just read that.
>> Um yeah, exactly. You're giving people
too many options. Um and that often will
lead to miscommunication because they're
picking and choosing what you're trying
exactly to say. And so you don't want to
don't leave
what your intention is in the
conversation up to the other person to
guess. You need to be sufficiently
clear.
>> Too much
>> correct. And that and that is what will
often lead to the most unassertive
communication because you're you can say
a lot and still not to say anything. Oo,
I've got one to add to your list of ways
that people sound weak or at the very
least imprecise and difficult to
understand in a conversation.
>> They ask a question and I noticed this
with new podcasters when they begin
because they're uncomfortable with
sitting in silence. They're
uncomfortable with asking a question,
especially potentially a tough question,
and then leaving it after the question
mark. So, they'll say something like,
"Jeffson, you're a trial lawyer, and
that means that sometimes you need to
represent people that have done bad
things. How do you feel about that?
>> Do you feel uh and then immediately
>> jump on it?"
>> They give you a couple of options. The
problem with doing that, especially as a
podcaster, is that I am imposing a
duality. I've compressed the infinity of
answers that you could have given me
down into two choices.
>> Yeah.
>> And in order for you to pick the third
one that might be true,
>> Mhm.
>> you have to say no, no, and this. And
most people just go, well, yeah, it's
kind of like that because it's easier.
It's some here's two paths that I've
carved for you. Pick which one. And
they're usually relatively okay. It's an
estimation of where I think you might
go. You're like, it's your job. It's
very important service. Do you think do
you see it as your job as an important
service? Or do you do you not take that
work home with you or whatever?
>> That does sound very British when you're
doing that. Sounds like a BBC interview.
That's crazy.
>> Oh, yeah. I like uh Pierers Morgan.
>> Yeah.
>> Pers Morgan but with a functioning hip.
Um you said earlier, I got to bring this
up. You said earlier on about people
that jewel. You know that the front
benches in the House of Lords,
the green benches where all of our
politicians sit and talk, waffle,
>> um the distance between the two front
benches is the same as a broadsword held
out at arms length.
>> No way.
>> Yeah. So if you do that again and then
on the other side, that's the the
distance between the two, which tells
you everything that you need to know
about how politics works.
>> Yeah. Exactly.
>> Yeah. We're very we're very uh very
sensitive to
>> honor. Uh, being right is overrated.
What's that mean?
>> Yeah, it means, you know, we've heard
these phrases of, do you wanna choose to
be right or you want to choose to be
happy? You know, do you want to choose
to be the person who always has to be
right? Usually that's the person who's
also the loneliest. Like
if you have to be right in this one
particular argument like and we all have
these kind of like silly arguments we
might have like I my brothers and I
might get into an argument about a movie
you know whatever who's what's the best
movie on whatever whatever and you can
sure that I'm not talking about that I'm
talking like a serious argument that
you're having with somebody who matters
to you and you have to be right on it
and you're refusing to back down and
then they eventually go you know what
have it you got it you're right
congratulations
And that moment lasts for about a
millisecond and then you're just kind of
left with
feeling like an idiot because you can
continue to win arguments but also lose
the relationship because nobody wants to
be with somebody who's always has to be
right. It's it shows more of an
insecurity than it does intellect.
So what should we prioritize instead of
being right?
>> Connection. It's the ability to
see perspectives and understand. I I'd
say appreciating somebody's perspective
is an underrated skill. Meaning I don't
have to agree with it.
I can still hear it. So rather than
saying I don't I don't agree with that.
>> Which is me commenting on your point, I
can say I see things differently.
>> That's me commenting on your
perspective.
>> Very different. M
>> and so when I'm able to use words of
perspective like huh I see that
differently I have a different take on
that I I look at that a different
perspective I get there another way
people go huh okay then what do you what
do you see what do you believe oh okay
rather than them having to they don't
have to have their sword and shield and
defend exactly they don't have to defend
it now they get to go oh okay they're
not trying to attack me they just they
go about it a different way how do they
go M it's really inviting.
>> Yeah. perspectives are are what allow
you to have conversations of
understanding rather than like I I can't
stand it when somebody goes I just don't
understand how they could possibly
believe that like I don't I just don't
get how their mind could even under and
it's like did you try like have you
asked like how how they came to
>> I don't think people mean that a lot of
the time what people what people are
saying is
>> I am sufficiently morally superior to
that person that My theory of mind
wouldn't even allow me to understand how
somebody could vote for Donald Trump
>> or do whatever.
>> Yep. Or Kamala Harris or support this
this perspective.
>> Yeah. It's because they they do they
feel this superiority of I'm obviously
right. They're obviously wrong. How
could they not see from
>> Look at how right I am. I'm so right
that they're essentially a different
species in a different universe to me.
>> Right.
>> Uh it's like, you know what it makes me
think about? It makes me think about
empathy. So, we're talking about the
ability to feel and understand somebody
else's emotions.
>> But this is a lot of people are able to
do that like type one empathy we could
call it. Uh I can feel and understand
your emotions whilst not having type two
empathy which is understanding how you
arrived at your perspective.
>> Yes.
>> And believing that you arrived there
too.
>> Right.
>> You know like and I think a lot of the
time people stop type one empathy is
similar to anger. There are a whole
bunch of people who are kind of infected
with empathy. There's an entire book
Paul Bloomro called Against Empathy.
It's like why you shouldn't have it. He
optimizes for something else. But
>> it's funny to think about how you might
be able to feel somebody else's emotions
either by choice or not by choice, but
it's much harder to say, I understand
why they arrived at that perspective. I
understand how they arrived. Even if I
don't hold it myself, it's a different
kind of Yeah, maybe empathy is the wrong
word, but it feels like a the symmetry
between those two things. Even when you
share your opinion on something, the way
we typically share it is very guarded
because we're kind of gauging. If it's a
new opinion or something, you don't know
if the room's going to be friendly to
it. You might, for example, hedge, you
might try and add a lot to show this is
a justified opinion. You have lots of
evidence for it. M
>> so we we come at it
>> already from a very defensive position
because we say this is my opinion which
I feel very special and this is my
treasured opinion and I'm going to do
anything I can to protect it. So if you
come at it with a different opinion
that's unlike mine, well, okay, how can
I make sure that I preserve what I
believe to the exclusion of what you
believe? And so how do I do that? It's
like juries and confirmation bias or all
kinds of different sympathies that we
have of we usually stick with what we
know first. And it takes a lot of time
and a lot of conversations for us to
change that outlook. And so a lot of the
times you'll have a jury or juror who
makes up their decision within the first
three minutes and then all they're doing
is filtering all the evidence that comes
forward.
>> If you know anybody that hears an
opinion or a bad thing that's happened
in the news about somebody political and
they go, "Oh, well, they probably just"
and they totally dismiss it and because
like we said, facts and evidence don't
matter. Why do you think modern culture
is so obsessed with being right, winning
debates?
Because what of what is our worth if
we're not right? If because we nobody
thinks that they're on the side of
wrong. Nobody goes into something
thinking that they're the enemy or
they're thinking about it the wrong way.
Nobody wants to go I'm thinking about
this the wrong way. Yes, I am. And they
just stick with that. They all think
that they have their own way about it.
And so I think we're obsessed about it
because what value does one derive from
if we don't feel that we're walking in
accordance of either good or evil?
Yeah, I've had a lot of communication
experts on talking about detecting
deception.
>> What's realistic and true about working
out whether someone's lying to you or
not?
>> Evidence.
>> I mean, if you don't hear
>> like a [ __ ] true trial lawyer nerd.
>> Yeah. A nerd. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Let's say you don't have that.
Let's say you don't have that. I think I
it is very hard. There are people who
are excellent liars. I would say that
liars cannot they love rebuttals. They
hate silence.
And so if they've said something that's
a lie and you allow that to sit or you
say I need to come back to this that
that feeling of not being able to accept
it.
Here's a cue that tells you if really
somebody is lying is that they can't
stand that you don't believe them.
People who are telling the truth know
it's the truth. And if you don't believe
it, then well, okay, I'm at peace
because I'm telling the truth. But those
who know that it's a lie usually will
have this unproportional response of how
dare you not possibly believe me and how
could you rather than having the
confidence of the truth is the truth.
Like it the truth needs no excuse,
right? And so it's this element of those
that are probably not saying all of the
truth show up in ways that are they're
going to question you. They're going to
ask you what you think
>> they should be doing. What what do you
what do you think I if I wasn't here?
What do you think I was doing? You tell
me. What do you think? Usually question
it like a very basic question of were
you you know did you drink new tonic?
Like did I drink Newtonic? Like you've
>> The answer is always yes.
>> Yeah. The answer is always yes. You did.
Of course. Um, I'm just I'm fueling my
focus.
>> Um,
and and so they question it, they get
upset about it, and they usually won't
let it go
>> because they they want they would rather
harm you than be honest.
Yeah, that makes sense. It's almost like
uh
it's almost like somebody is trying to
lay down. It's similar to anger. It's
reminding me the same of this outsized
response,
>> right?
>> This uh overly dramatic,
>> well, how could you? Yeah. The
indignation that comes with that. But I
can see times I can imagine a lot of
times where it go
>> what do you mean? Like yes, that thing
happened.
>> Yes. How do you not see? Because so
indignation is a useful tool, right?
Because it actually mirrors what you
would do if you were telling the truth.
So it's like
>> I I really wasn't doing that thing. But
I mean
>> I find that in indignation is very much
related to fear. Like it's it's all tied
to something of I'm not I'm not enough.
I'm not being believed. I have no
>> I have no worth. What am I doing?
>> And so it goes back to that idea of the
truth is the truth for me. You can
choose to take it or or choose to not.
But I can't I can't make you believe
that. But I know what I'm living with
and I'm living with a clear conscience
here. And should you not believe it,
that's that's your choice. But the ones
who are not being fully honest,
they know that they're not and they know
what they're living with and they know
what's true and what's not true. And
usually some little bit of signs is
they'll start to question it and they
have this very unregulated response.
>> Ruptures hurt relationships a lot. What
does gold standard repair look like to
you? How do people come back together
after an argument?
This is big. Um,
and my wife and I, we have kind of set
up, we did this a few weeks ago, of like
a system of for us as a couple, how do
how best can I show up for her and she
show up for me when it comes to repair?
>> You've been together for 15 years.
>> Yeah, but still even,
>> dude, it's it's Wait. Just wait. All
right. It's it has time means nothing. I
just assumed given your professional
career that this might have been a a
year three or four or five thing.
>> Why do you think I learned all of this?
It's because I made a lot of mistakes,
man. Yeah. This this is all part of it's
either you know this information or any
information either because you learned
at a great personal cost and risk or
you're just making it up and like I I've
learned all this because of my life
experience.
>> Research is me search as they say.
>> Yeah, that's exactly right. And so,
yeah, we've done smatterings of things,
but we decided to actually put something
down. And I'd say the number one thing
you have to do to kind of come back from
an argument is number one, ownership.
You need to own what you said or own
what you did. It's the element of I did
that. I said this. Not trying to look, I
did this because you did. That that's
gets no points. Zero score. that doesn't
doesn't help you at all when you start
to you know well if you hadn't have said
this I wouldn't have like that's toxic
and that's no good if it's a full you
got to take it on the chin ownership hey
what I said
not cool what I said I own that I did
say this and it's a true apology
and then you have to do go into this
element of
acknowledgement and affirmation meaning
I can only imagine that that made you
feel hurt, that made you feel upset,
that made you feel less than, that made
you question, you know, my my feelings,
whatever it is. You have to kind of feel
the feelings from their perspective of
what you would assume. You probably
>> emotional stealing.
>> Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It this this
I imagine that they made you feel like
this or of course you'd be upset about
this. I could Why wouldn't you be upset
about that? Yeah. I said something big.
And then three, it's the element of
we're still a team. I'm still working
towards this. You kind of have to have
this element of hope where it's we're
going to still continue to work this
out. We're going to continue to get
better at this. You got to you got to
keep working through it. And it's
depending on what you did, there's got
to be apologies, of course.
>> I wonder whether most relationship
failure is just bad communication.
Obviously, there's incompatibilities.
There's fundamental fundamental problems
that are insurmountable. There's a line
from Visakhan Verasami. He calls it uh
the divorce paradox. Says, "Why is it
that so many people separate from
someone who seemed to be their favorite
person?"
>> And it's because bad times are a far
better predictor of relationship
longevity than good times are.
>> It's how you deal with disagreement, not
how you enjoy wonder
>> that determines relationship longevity.
Very few people have ended a
relationship
because there were insufficient peak
moments when you compare them to the
number of people who've ended
relationships because there were far too
many bad ones.
>> Too much rupture without repair as
opposed to too little skydiving with a
parachute.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I I I believe that the
quality of the relationship
doesn't depend on how good are the good
times. It's can you be with them through
the the bad times or the bad times?
>> Yeah. Exactly. The hard the really hard
conversations because that's those are
invitations to grow deeper together, to
bond more, to get closer together, to be
known, to be fully known with that
person. You don't get that in the first
few dates. You get that in the 15-year
knockdown dragout, who am I? What am I
doing conversations? That's where you
get to see really what's what's there
inside. I mean, you you have to find the
bottom to know what's how far you can go
up.
>> What have you come to believe about
choosing a good partner?
>> That is hard work.
Doesn't matter even if you're somebody
who talks about communication or you're
somebody for however long you've been
married. It's it's hard work. I I don't
know anybody that has been in a
long-term relationship or finding their
person. Of course, you want somebody who
you can be a friend with and you can by
somebody you can be vulnerable with.
Um, but more importantly, you need to
have somebody that you communicate well
with.
If you don't have communication right,
to me, that's a that's a relationship
that's not going to have longevity to it
because
it feels good in the moment, but in year
six, year seven, year 10, you had kids
into the mix. That didn't help
conversation. It's It puts conversation
problems on steroids. Now every little
fissure and crack gets highlighted and
it's more stress. And then you got kids
schedules and somebody's got soccer
practice and somebody has a dentist
appointment and then things just get
it's it's way way harder in that
element. And so you have to have
somebody who communicates well with you.
And honestly, Chris, somebody who can
put up with your ugly. Somebody who cuz
you're going to have those just moments
where it's not a good look. Just not a
good look.
>> That wasn't me at my best.
>> Yeah. Yeah. And And they know that.
>> They They're not going to punish you for
it. They know it wasn't.
>> And they're going to choose that their
love is big enough for that bad moment.
And know that it's not always going to
be that bad moment. But at the same
time, they're going to expect you to
come out of it and go, "Yeah, I could
handle that better."
>> Not blame them for your bad moment.
>> What's the most fascinating thing about
being a trial lawyer that you've learned
after spending so much time in it that
people from outside of your industry
don't know or don't understand?
But it's different in the sense of
you're having to have
like, you know, the movie Inception
>> Dev.
>> Okay. Like who doesn't? It's it's like
you're you're having a conversation
within a conversation. I'm having to
prove a point within a point. And so
I am hired to have problems with
somebody I don't have problems with.
Right?
>> And all of a sudden, their problems have
now become mine. And now I'm advocating
on their behalf. I'm being their voice.
And now this other person's hired
somebody to have problems with me,
right? And so it's now attorneys arguing
secondhand removed from the people who
are actually in the conflict.
>> And then now I'm going to present this
case to 12 people in a judge in a
courtroom of what case should be left
standing. Now it depends on the facts in
the case and everything else, but you
are having to have a conversation
that is not even being said. For
example, as soon as you walk into the
courtroom, all eyes are on you. If you
hear a piece of evidence that's bad for
you and I go,
what does that tell the jury? You go,
"Oh, this must be really bad for them."
But if I stay calm and controlled as if
like, "Yeah, I expected to hear that."
Doesn't doesn't hit that way.
>> Regardless of whether you did or not.
>> Exactly. And then even when I've seen
this a lot where if anybody's been in
jury, they've seen attorneys approach
the bench, council approach the bench
and they come up and they usually play
some kind of noise, white noise,
something to where you can't hear what
the judges and the attorneys are saying.
>> No way.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
>> Oh, that's fun.
>> And so
>> they should put some tunes on instead.
>> They they really should play some Cardi
B or something.
>> Oh, I think that would be that'd be
pretty baller. That would be pretty
cool. Uh you're
>> up there and you're like,
>> "Yeah, just some Kendrick." Yeah. Um,
and so
you you're talking and they always say
it's they watch who leaves and the
reaction of the attorneys because
usually the judge is ruling on something
that the jury can't hear on. It's it's a
matter of law that would sway the case.
And if the attorney is walking away
defeated, they go, "Oh, something must
have happened." Or if the attorney is
always objecting, that's the worst. You
have to be really selective with your
objections. So, let's say a witness is
about to say something and I it seems
like it'd be something big and I stand
up and I object and the judge sustains
it and they skip to the testimony. They
go, "Oh, he he's hiding something from
me. He must not want me to know
everything." So, what is this? What am I
teaching? I'm saying you are
>> you you are having a conversation all
with your body language, your whole
presence, how calm and controlled you
are. How can you be the most credible in
the room without have nothing to do with
the actual facts of the case? And you do
that a lot by being the person who they
go, that person's telling me the truth.
That's a truth teller. I can tell by how
confident, controlled, measured they
are. They don't seem like they're
worried and anxious about every little
thing the witness is going to say.
>> Which is interesting because that can be
taught and engineered
>> to a large margin. Mhm.
>> So, it's just levels of deception that
are more sophisticated than the levels
of detection.
>> And and the thing is, it exists in every
conversation, not just in the courtroom.
>> I mean, dude, look at UFC fights and
boxing fights that go the distance.
>> Yeah.
>> Both fighters put their hand up,
>> right?
>> Oh, yeah. Exactly. At the very end,
>> it's the exact same as you walking away
from the bench. You might as well you
might actually next time do this for me.
See if it works. I'll try it, dude. If
it works, I that
>> I'll give you all the credit. Thank you.
That's good. Okay. So,
lots of different techniques around
communication. At least for me, the main
thing that the main thing that I'm
taking away or one of the main things
I'm taking away is a degree of
consideration for the other person. That
seems to be like a real through line
with a lot of what we're going on here
that
>> um
holding your ground, being assertive,
>> and also being understanding about what
what we're doing here.
That kind of consideration is important.
If there's one principle that people
should hold on to when it comes to good
interpersonal communication, what would
it be?
One conversation is typically not
enough.
You need a lot of them.
meaning
we put a lot of pressure on one single
conversation and that that increases the
anxiety, increases the the fear of the
moment that I'm going to say the wrong
thing, do the wrong thing. And you're
putting hype on a conversation that
didn't need to have that kind of hype on
it because really it should be the
opposite. It should be a, hey, I'm
talking to you about this because you
matter a lot to me and at the end of
this, we're still going to be best
friends and we're still going to go to
dinner together tonight and we're still
going to do X, Y, and Z. I just because
I love you, I need to tell you this.
This is what's on my heart. You see how
that's rather than me trying to push
everything at once versus
if I were to say,
I'd like to, let's say it's a big big
important thing that needs to take some
time. Hey, I'd like to have a
conversation with you over the next few
weeks. I'd like to have a conversation
over this month to talk about X, Y, and
Z. Whenever you say that this is a
conversation that's going to take some
time, it automatically lowers
everybody's anxiety rather than you
having to decide this is the moment
right here. Choose to be with me, not be
with me. Where are we doing? What are we
not doing? It it heights that what if I
get it wrong feeling. And there's a lot
of times there's more conversation that
that needs to be had. Another I'd say is
it's it's that element of having
something to learn, not something to
prove. When you feel like you have to
prove my point.
People who have something to prove are
the ones that always have to push their
opinion. How dare you believe what you
believe and not what I how dare you have
an idea that's not mine and go with
something else versus questioning in a
very curious way. That's well like you
said which I like is that perspective
seeking. How can I
how can I encourage the pursuit of
perspective? Yeah. How can I get really
disciplined on knowing where your
thoughts come from? Where did you learn
it? How long have you believed it? Where
did that originate? Is that something
you taught yourself or is that something
you came across from really hardship?
>> And the more you give people time to
share with that, the more they're going
to open up to you and realize you are a
safe place for to share these kinds of
things and not harden up.
>> Dude, you're great. Let's bring this one
home. Appreciate the heck out of you.
Where should people go to check out
everything that you've got going on? and
go to jeffersonfishing.com or social
media Jefferson Fisher.
>> Beautiful. Thanks, man.
>> Denny's Cheesecake Factory. What do you
think?
>> Let's Yeah, let's do that. So, I think
um you go Outback. You go Outback. Is
that like
>> steakhouse?
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah, sure. Let's do
>> Okay. Like a lemon onion or something?
>> Cool. All right. Goodbye, everybody.
>> Bye.
>> Thanks for having me.
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