There's far more going right in any of
us, in all of us, than there is going
wrong if we're here, right? And if we're
listening to to educational material, we
want to better ourselves. There's so
much more that's going right in us. And
it's a good place for us to start
because it helps us to be able to look
at what's not going the way we want it
to be, what we where we want to bring
change in our lives. But we should start
from a position of strength. Welcome to
the Hubberman Lab podcast where we
discuss science and science-based
[music] tools for everyday life.
I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor
of neurobiology and opthalmology at
Stamford School of Medicine. My guest
today is Dr. Paul Ki. Dr. Paul Ki is a
medical doctor and psychiatrist and an
expert in recovery from trauma. He is
also one of the foremost public
educators on how anyone can build a
greater sense of agency, confidence, and
well-being in their life. Today, we
discuss the practical aspects of
building and maintaining mental health.
In particular, how to identify your
natural strengths and the often unseen
opportunities to improve your reflexive
mental framework and relationship with
self and others. Dr. Dr. Kanti's
approach to building mental health and
overcoming challenges with mental health
are very different than most of the
information that you'll find on the
internet and elsewhere. He has decades
of clinical experience and he draws on
that and data to explain the specific
questions that we all need to ask
ourselves when we're facing things like
lowered motivation, mood or challenges
overcoming bad habits. Today we discuss
all of that as well as how to balance
action and introspection. And this is
very important because I think a lot of
people think about mental health as
merely an introspective process. But as
Dr. Ki points out, it's really a balance
of thinking and doing and often involves
more doing than thinking. So during
today's episode, you'll get a specific
framework of questions to ask yourself
repeatedly, that is every day or every
week, and specific action steps to take
so that you can truly become the best
version of yourself and derive the
greatest sense of meaning along the way.
I'd like to point out that Dr. Dr. Ki
also has a new book coming out which is
aptly entitled what's going right a
powerful new method for optimizing your
mental health and I've read the book
from front to back and I have to tell
you it's a wonderful resource that
includes both information and simple
worksheet like prompts that can help
anyone through sticking points as well
as to build on what the title suggests
what's already going right. So, if
you're currently suffering or if you're
doing well and you want to level up your
mental health further, today's
conversation is definitely for you.
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize
that this podcast is separate from my
teaching and research roles at Stanford.
It is however part of my desire and
effort to bring zero cost to consumer
information about science and science
related tools to the general public. In
keeping with that theme, today's episode
does include sponsors. And now for my
discussion with Dr. Paul Ki. Dr. Paul
Ki, welcome back.
>> Thank you. Thank you for having me back.
>> Congratulations on your book, What's
Going Right? A Powerful New Method for
Optimizing Your Mental Health. It's an
amazing book. And you also hold the
record, not incidentally, I think, for
the most viewed and downloaded episodes
of this podcast ever. So,
>> um, you know, you got a lot of Hubman
podcast listener fans out there. So,
>> um, they'll be reading if if they're
smart and they want to be be better.
They want to feel enriched in all the
ways. So let let's talk about um
>> let's talk about individuals first and
then I also want to talk today about um
interactions between people which we
probably haven't talked quite as much
about.
>> Okay, at least not here. The self,
right? We all have a a name, a
self-concept. We wake up thinking and
knowing essentially who we are, what
bothers us, what we're excited about.
And um the question I've been living
with for a long time is how malleable is
our self view, right? And our
relationship to oursel and and we can
define those, right? If we're not super
comfortable or completely happy with our
relationship to ourselves,
how much flexibility is there on the on
that whole picture?
>> I think it's very malleable. I think
there's a lot of flexibility, but we
have to be willing to look at ourselves.
You know, very often we're not looking
at ourselves. We're afraid of what we're
going to find or um we don't know how to
understand or how to bring change. So,
so we don't look at ourselves and then
we we can see ourselves as inflexible
and and and think that we're just stuck
in the same place over time. But if
we're willing to look at ourselves and
we bring this compassionate curiosity to
ourselves of hey what what can I learn
about myself and what might I be
interested in changing in myself or in
emphasizing in myself we I think we can
bring a lot a lot of change in the title
of your book uh what's going right is
that a good lens to start uh looking
through when we look at oursel like like
what what works you know um 10 fingers
10 toes in my case I'm is that a good
place to start um you know that I feel
some sense of agency over a number of
areas of my life. Is that the way to
start wading into the questions about
self?
>> I think to start off with what's going
right, it's not just a way of looking at
it because it feels better, but it but
it's consistent with truth. I mean,
there's far more going right in any of
us, in all of us, than there is going
wrong if we're here, right? And if we're
listening to to educational material, we
want to better ourselves. There's so
much more that's going right in us. And
it's a good place for us to start
because it helps us to be able to look
at what's not going the way we want it
to be. What we where we want to bring
change in our lives. But we should start
from a position of strength. And the
mental health system really tells us to
look at ourselves in the opposite way.
To look at ourselves through what is
going wrong and to put labels on
ourselves that that often just make us
feel worse or or make us feel more
helpless or hopeless in understanding.
But but if we start with what's going
right and we bring curiosity to
ourselves, then there are processes we
can follow to understand and to bring
real change. What are some of those
processes that um people could use to
explore and if you would what are some
questions that people can or thoughts or
or landscapes to explore where people
can ping themselves with specific
questions? So good places to start the
looking at your self-t talk. You know,
what are you saying to yourself in quiet
moments when no one else is listening or
when there's there's a pause in the
action in your life? What are you saying
to yourself? What messages are you
giving yourself? And often times we're
telling ourselves things that about
ourselves that are often negative or
often critical and we're not aware that
we're we're saying these things over and
over to ourselves. So, so that's just
one strategy. Another strategy can be to
think about the life narrative that
we're telling ourselves. So if you just
tell yourself about yourself or if
you're telling someone else about you,
what what is it that you say? What is it
that you that you say in a reflexive way
and does it match what's real and true
about your life? You know, we both all
people have these two foundational
pillars and and in the first part of the
series that we did in 2023, we really
sort of hashed this out and it was the
first time I really put together, hey,
there's a structure of self and we all
share this. And I'd, you know, been
thinking along these lines, but the our
our talk helped me to pull together.
Hey, there there's something that
applies to all of us. Just because we're
human and we have a human brain and a
human mind, there is a structure of self
and a function of self. And these
foundational pillars are where we can
look to understand ourselves better and
to bring better health. So if if we are
aware of where to look and how to look
and we're willing to look because we're
not afraid of what we're going to find
and we have we have a belief that we can
bring change and this is how we we bring
flexibility and malleability and and we
can approach ourselves feeling really
good that hey if I do this I am going to
be able to make things better. There's
so much hopefulness to that and it's
it's reasonably grounded hopefulness.
I have a question that might seem like a
leap somewhere else, but I promise it
ties back to what we're talking about.
In your experience with psychiatry and
the brain and patients and interacting
with people in your own life,
do you think that there's tremendous
variation or little variation in how
state dependent people are? Um, you
know, some people it seems, um, you
know, they're so affiliative that when
they're in, uh, relating to somebody
else, they they think and feel
completely differently than they do when
they're on their own.
>> Not not necessarily even extroverted to
for that to be true. Um, but that when
they're suddenly alone, um, that the
internal state is very different, almost
like it's two different lives. Mhm.
>> There's a reason why I'm asking this,
but I'm wondering about the role of
state dependence and how we think and
how we feel and how we think about the
things around us and think about
ourselves.
>> For most of us, life is moving very fast
and life has a lot of stressors in it.
And what ends up happening is we're kind
of rushing just to keep up with
ourselves. And and when that happens, we
become very state dependent as opposed
to being able to observe ourselves. So
so to be able to see, okay, I I'm here
and this is what I'm doing and this is
the people I'm with and how I'm feeling
and how I'm behaving. To be able to
observe ourselves is how we knit
together oneself across situations. So
we can be aware I'm different in one
situation than another. Right? So, so
some of the behavior then and the sense
of self is state dependent, but there's
a whole self that's riding above all of
it. It's observing us and knitting us
together. What sometimes gets called an
observing ego. And this is how we can
both be state dependent, but also have a
self that that is true across all of
those states. I'd like to take a quick
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when somebody sits down to think about
their strengths or to think about their
self-t talk or um to just think about
what they're made of and how they want
to change or not change certain things,
build on certain strengths,
when and how should they do it? Yeah. I
think all we need to bring is curiosity.
That's all. And and curiosity doesn't
have to be overly serious or or worried,
right? It doesn't have to have a gravity
to it. I mean, it can, but it can also
be very light-hearted. You know, there's
so many things that we're curious about,
so many things we want to learn about.
And this is great. It's great for our
brains and it's great for our health to
be curious and to want to learn. But so
often what we leave out of that equation
is being curious about ourselves, right?
And that can be a sort of high-spirited
thing to do of, you know, what is there
in me that runs through all the things
that I do? How is it that I feel so
different doing one thing than another?
What are the common threads of me that
run throughout my life? You know, this
is this a great way to approach what's
going right in us, right? To be curious
about ourselves. And it's from there
that it's easier to see, wow, in in one
certain kind of situation, I'm really
not doing as well, right? Or I'm not as
happy. Like then we can think about that
and we don't have to be afraid of it. So
bringing curiosity to ourselves, what
runs through everything we do, and also
how we're different in different
situations can help lead us to all sorts
of answers about what makes us happy and
what doesn't. When are we presenting a
true and honest self? When are we
presenting a false self that even we
know is false. So I think the only
crucial ingredient is curiosity. And and
then we can approach with seriousness
and gravity or we can approach with
light-heartedness. We can be alone or we
can be thinking with someone else.
There's all sorts of good places that
curiosity can take us.
>> It's interesting that you talked about
true self versus false self. Um I think
the more state dependence we have, the
more confusing that becomes, right? And
and I think perhaps even more so in in
this day and age, there seems to be not
a complete but at least to me a kind of
partial erosion of etiquette. I'm not
saying this to encourage people to be
more rigid. It just seems to me that I'm
50 now. When I was growing up, seemed
like people would dress and act one way
in one context and dress and act one way
in a different context. And there's some
overlap obviously, but now there's this
sort of propensity for not just
oversharing, but there's information
from all corners of the world coming
through our devices all the time. And
people are putting out information about
many facets of their life all the time.
Even people I went to high school with
who weren't public facing in the
traditional sense are putting out
pictures of their kids and what they ate
and this and the the wins and the
losses. And it's a very odd thing to do
when in fact we evolved for so long just
kind of experiencing oursel
separate from all the other activities
that we were doing and certainly that
other people are doing in your clinical
practice. Are you seeing more challenges
with people creating separation between
kind of aspects of self and aspects of
life because of all the the the
information coming at them and and maybe
even that they're putting in the world.
>> I think it can be different depending
upon what the person is doing, how
they're using that information. And so
so if you think of falseeness of of
self, you know, it's possible a person
can be engaged in something that that
even they themselves know isn't real,
right? So so wanting everyone to see
what's what's best in my life and to and
to think that, you know, I'm doing
really well, you know, and and maybe I'm
doing that to hide something or why am I
doing that, right? If if I want to
appear externally differently than than
how I am, there's a good place for
curiosity about the falseness of that.
What am I trying to protect against? You
know, why is it that I want people to
see me in a certain way that might be
different from how my life actually is
if it has, you know, not just all winds
in it, right? But but, you know,
stressors too that might not be as
glamorous. So, so that's one way we can
use those resources. Another way can be
to engage in ways that are more true to
self. So someone who has an interest or
a passion that it's hard to find people,
you know, right around them. Uh but they
can find that more distantly or or
people who have a lot of sensibility and
compassion for for some of the difficult
things in the world who can find kindred
spirits through social media. So So I I
think we can use or misuse anything
around us to to either be we can use it
to be closer to ourselves and and to
have a stronger sense of self, right? or
we can use it to distract from who we
really are and to maybe find solace
somewhere else or find accolades
somewhere outside of us because we're
protecting against something. So I I
think the the important point is is
always to be honest with ourselves. And
if we bring compassionate curiosity,
then we're not mad at ourselves and that
we're not coming at ourselves of what's
wrong with me or why why can't I do this
thing better or that thing better or why
don't people like me more, whatever it
may be, right? There are ways that we
can, you know, we can guide ourselves
away from from honesty and truth. And if
we look at ourselves, we don't have to
be afraid of what we find. Maybe if
we're worried people aren't liking us,
we're we're spending time with not a
healthy group of people, right? Or or
maybe there's something in in myself I
need to change if I'm feeling that. So,
the key is just bringing honesty and
curiosity and not being so afraid or so
negative towards ourselves that we're
going to hide from what it is that that
we can find to knit us together. Yeah.
I'm not trying to demonize social media,
but we are in a strange new version of
humanity where let's say somebody's
sitting by themselves. Chances are their
experience is vastly different than it
would have been 30 years ago because
they are most likely getting a lot of
information about what other people are
doing. could be good information um
could be interesting but nonetheless
it's very very different alone state and
or they are doing things that hopefully
they enjoy but there's this additional
layer where it's put out into the world
this is very unusual so the reason I'm
asking about this in the context of
addressing the self exploring the self
is that
I wonder to what extent being really
happy with oneself at some level
involves being able to be curious and
explore different ways of being and ways
of thinking without the impulse of
sharing that and without the feedback
comparison of what other people are
doing because
[clears throat] the moment we see
something else there's more sensory
input or the moment that we think what
we're doing needs to be shared it
changes the experience. It's not truly
an alone experience,
>> right? Uh, and I don't think it matters
if you put it out to one follower or to
a billion followers. It's it's still
externalizing this thing that for
thousands of years was just us with our
thoughts, us with our emotions. And and
so processing time alone has become, I
believe, a very very different thing
altogether.
>> Yeah, I think that's true. I think
there's a sweet spot of connectedness to
others, right? And we know that it's not
good to have too little, right? that
that isolation isn't good for us. But
but where the modern world has gone is
is it is it offers us too much the the
opposite, right? Where there's not
enough aloneeness where if we're
overconnected then in order to to to
decide what it is we even like or prefer
how we feel about things, we're looking
for external cues, right? So that sweet
spot of having some external check-ins.
How does the world around me feel? How
do people I like and trust feel? How do
people who seem like me feel? How do
people who seem different from me feel?
It it's good to have those tests
outside, but to have enough aloneeness
that I am still thinking about myself
and the questions, right, of of life,
the questions of my own life, I'm
thinking about on my own before I'm
pinging outside of me, you know, for
information or validation or even
guidance. I'm willing to bet that many
people will find just the being alone
introspective process to be pretty
anxietyprovoking.
Um, in fact, there's been a little bit
of a um semic comedic exchange online
recently because uh um actually our
mutual uh friend David Senra and David
Senra has a podcast with this very
podcast production company. Um he sat
down with Mark Andre of you know founded
Netscape A16Z Investments and Mark made
the statement that was very provocative
which was you know great men of history
didn't uh sit around thinking about
their thoughts you know and and of
course I knowing Mark um and he's a
friend of mine I I think that was a bit
tongue-in-cheek I think he was I think
he was pointing toward I don't want to
speak for him but I think he was
pointing toward the idea that too much
thinking and not enough doing can be
self-destructive. Of course, the media
ran with it and in classic Andreian
fashion, he uh just doubled down and
tripled down on that message, which was
fun for a while actually because it got
people thinking about the role of
introspection versus the role of doing.
And I have to say I think what he
contributed with those statements,
however provocative, um were useful in
thinking like how much thinking, how
much doing when exploring the self. We
don't want to spiral into a tunnel that
we can't get out of, but we also want to
make sure that we're putting things out
into the world. So when you have a
patient that is not depressed, is um
maybe just struggling, right? Um so no
no no clinical issue that needs dealing
with first. How much do you encourage
them to explore the self through doing
versus thinking about their thinking? It
depends very much on who is that person
right and and where do they need to face
to sort of break new ground of self and
you know you mentioned that most people
would find the idea of just being with
themselves to to be anxietyprovoking and
I think that that's unfortunate. I think
that comes from a lack of leadership in
the mental health field and then the
stigma of mental health and and our
fears, those blackbox fears that we
don't understand. So we're afraid of
what we don't understand. What we don't
understand is ourselves.
>> So so then the idea of being with
ourselves becomes very anxietyprovoking
and I think that's not good. I think
there are ways that we can go about
being with ourselves that we don't have
to be afraid of and say if I if I do
that it's interesting what I'm going to
find. Right? and and the reflection and
the thoughts and the ideas, the learning
that comes from it is going to guide me
towards the best balance for me. Right?
So there are some people who are very
assertive, right? And they want to have
high levels of doing in the world, but
they still need some reflection, right?
There are other people who are going to
be very reflective and they're going to
be doing less. One, we need to
understand what profile works for for
one person. It's not one exact place,
but we kind of have a profile of
reflection and of doing. And if if we
are wellbalanced where we're asserting
ourselves in the world at levels that
work for us and we're finding pleasure
and gratification in ways that are
healthy, now we're finding balance. If
there's too much doing and not enough
reflection, not not a lot of good will
come from that, right? We we'll find
that there's diminishing returns. We
feel unsatisfied, right? because we're
doing too much and we're maybe taking
less pleasure in what we're doing. But
if we're doing too little, then you know
we can feel idle and there can be a
sense of learned helplessness. So it's
finding what is the optimal range for a
person to be asserting themselves in the
world and then finding gratification in
what they're doing. And if that's going
well, we'll see it there. There's a
happy balanced person. And if not, we'll
be able to figure it out of what is
going on in that person. Is there an
issue somewhere say in the unconscious
mind, right? Are they asserting more and
too much and reflecting too little?
Right? So by looking at the person and
going through these steps, we can figure
out what what serves that person best
and how might they adjust from where
they are now to get there. Is it true
that there are just some people who just
don't really think about their thinking
very much. They just like do stuff. I
mean, I've had friends say that like I I
don't I'm not I don't want to speak for
me. I I'll speak for them. they they'll
say that they don't think about their
thinking. They just get up in the
morning and they brush their teeth and
they use the bathroom and they go about
their day and they they're not very
introspective. They're not
>> um they're not called to think about
their thinking.
>> And in some cases, these are people who
are extremely busy. So maybe that's one
reason. But in some cases, there are
people who just, you know, for whatever
reason that that the mirror doesn't pop
up in their cortex. it it it's they're
busy doing and observing and they seem
functional. Are they missing out on a on
something fundamental or is that maybe
even the goal? I I asked this from a
very selfish perspective because growing
up I thought how cool would that be to
just like go through life just do stuff
not think about stuff from the past too
much
>> not reflect too much just like get stuff
done and I and I'm a get it done kind of
person but I I think like most people I
also I also
forced to think about my thinking from
time to time. Mhm.
>> When you say forced, what then forces
you?
>> Oh, sorry. It just spontaneously
happens. I I reflect like and the
reflections usually I'll try and
generalize these cuz it's this is not
about me. The reflections generally come
from like
is that something I should explore? Like
is that a problem? Is the way I'm
thinking about or doing that a problem?
>> Or is the way that they're thinking
about and doing something a problem?
this US them thing is it it is kind of
what it boils down to and it's either
positive or negative. I confess I don't
really sit around a lot and think about
all the things going right. I should
>> I have a gratitude practice.
>> I generally don't sit around and think
like oh like the the walls are up and
the ceiling's intact and I'm fed and I'm
healthy and of course until something
bad happens and then we start doing we
do our inventory. Right.
>> Right. But yeah, I just kind of wonder
whether or not there's a spectrum of of
of
reflexive self exploration.
>> People have different reflective
capacity and people have different
reflective interest. So there are people
who have more and that could serve them
well to be more self-aware but but also
people may have less reflective capacity
but be more naturally generative and
then they're just moving forward. So the
question is even though we have
different um natural [clears throat]
levels of of reflective inclination,
right? Are we happy? Are our lives going
well? If life is going well and that
person is, you know, they're healthy,
they have good mental health and secure
relationships and and life is going well
and they're not reflecting very much
like that sounds good. How I would
characterize that is they're living
through the generative drive, right?
They're they're being productive
contributo people in the world. They're
making the world better. They're
learning. They're growing. So, they're
making themselves better. And they're
just moving forward. That's a great way
to be for most of us in order to get
there. We do have to be reflective and
and some of what will happen is it will
come to us. You said you're not kind of
planning maybe to sit down and be
reflective. But but then it comes to
you. Hey, I should think of this
possibility at hand and what are other
people thinking and if how's that
impacting what I'm thinking? So you
become reflective because your brain is
leading you there, right? Because it's
it's saying, "Hey, we need to we do need
to stop and and think about things.
that's how we're going to make better
decisions. So our brains will lead us to
reflection. But if we're moving so fast
or we're defended against it, right,
then we're not reflective and that's not
good for us. And that's how you could
see, for example, someone who's always
busy so they don't have time to reflect.
But but the the the big question is, is
that person happy? Right? If that person
is not happy and they're complaining and
they feel like they're working and never
getting anything out of it or never
getting any reward, then it's it's not
good that they're not reflective, right?
blocking themselves from something that
they need. There are spectrums that that
apply differently to different people
and we all reside on different parts of
the spectrum whether it's reflective
capacity or it's assertion or it's
pleasure but in terms of what we're
doing and whether it's healthy for us is
it's different for for we're each and
all unique. So we have to stop and look
at ourselves like hey how's this going
for me right how am I functioning and is
it working for me right is it am I
pausing and thinking enough maybe the
answer is yes maybe the answer is no
maybe I'm not sure but but if I'm not
happy let me go back and revisit that
question so this curiosity of self can
lead us to oh how am I built to function
am I functioning in a way that really
works for me if not why not what change
might I bring and and here again we're
using the ability to understand and to
go through a process us to to make our
lives better.
>> I realize these aren't clinical terms,
but someone recently said uh about
themselves that they are an external
processor. They need to talk things
through in order to understand what's
going on for them and make decisions.
And that implies that some people are
internal processors. Is that true? Do
you see that in your practice that some
people do best by like thinking, sitting
and thinking, walking and thinking,
driving and thinking, kind of working
things through, and other people
actually work it out by talking either
to you or to um to their friends or
family,
>> some trusted person. Is that really are
those two probably not completely
separate, but at least semi separate
bins of people?
>> I don't know that they're separate bins
of people. I I I think that the ability
to think and and to be objective in our
thinking differs among people. What
happens often is we get stuck in our own
minds. So then we're thinking but we're
not thinking productively, right?
Because we get stuck in our own loops.
And and when we take the thought process
outside of us, so if we write the words
down or if we say the words, we say the
words to another person, then we're
bringing different brain processes
online, different error checking
processes online. So some of us can do
more of this inside and say, "Hey, you
know, I've been thinking about this for
a while and nothing's different or
nothing's going better. Like, is there a
different way? Is there a way I could
think about it that's new or that's
different?" Right? Sometimes we can do
that, but a lot of times we just get
stuck inside of ourselves and we have to
bring different brain processes online.
Like making words and putting those
words out there in in writing or in
speech is different. It sort of holds
the brain more accountable. That's why
sometimes we'll just say something out
loud or we'll say something to someone
else and say, "Oh, I figured that out."
Or, "Thanks for helping me figure it
out." And he might realize all you did
was listen. Right? Because just by being
there, the other person is forming
words. you know, we we do more due
diligence inside of ourselves that way.
>> I must confess I'm I'm fascinated by
this notion of uh people differing in
their tendency to work things out
internally and then bring that forward
into the world maybe for more help or
you know some additional solutions. Um
or maybe just they've made they've
figured it out. So they're bringing the
a version of self into the world that is
um vetted by them.
>> Yes.
>> I I I notice I tend to respect that
picture,
>> but I realize that's not necessarily the
way it always works. I had a
conversation with my sister this morning
and um I love my sister. we're we're
quite close and and it was there was no
friction but the direction she was
taking what we were talking about and
the direction I was taking it they
weren't aligned and so we kind of did a
little bit of our brother sister push
back and this kind and then at some
point we both realized that we we
weren't aligned with the other person
>> and we kind of arrived at this overlap
in the vin diagram and that's when it
was like okay there was some real
clarity that came to something important
>> and I thought like how cool is that
right she has her way of doing things I
have my way of doing things. I don't
think I could have gotten there without
that conversation.
>> Mhm.
>> And yet for the twothirds, sorry I won't
say her name for her own privacy, but
for twothirds of the conversation, I'm
thinking myself like, "Oh god, this is
like this is an already difficult thing
made more difficult by the fact that
there's this other picture of it and a
version of it that she's exter but then
boom, you hit this convergence
>> and that's real synergy, right? I
certainly couldn't have come up with
that on my own." So while I say I place
value on the internal processor, I I
know with certainty I could not have
gotten there if I hadn't actually felt
and met the friction of what she was
bringing forward and her willingness to
bend a bit and my willingness to accept
a bit.
>> Right? Because you doing something
together, right? You were doing
something together that that involved
real and open communication. So you had
to be able to say, "This is how I think
and feel." And put that out there and
test it and bounce it off the other
person and take inside what the other
person thinks and said. There's a really
complicated process there which is how
human beings come to understand one
another or come to agree or come to a
place where where there's um a way
forward even if there isn't complete
agreement. Right? We have to do these
things outside of us. Most often if
we're going to be at our healthiest, we
do want to be able to do some of it
inside. Right? It's a good place to
start and we can do that alone with
ourselves. and and you know we've we're
talking about reflective capacity and
inclination but none of us knows how to
do something we haven't been taught to
do right so so very often we haven't had
a a way of going inside of saying well
I'm going to think about myself and I
want to do that productively and and
part of what I'm trying to bring to the
four is that there are ways of going
about being with yourself thinking about
yourself thinking within yourself that
can lead us towards progress at least
and sometimes answers. And if we're
doing that, we can probably all do more
of that than we're doing. And if we're
given a way to do it where we think,
okay, this works for me. I'm actually
learning about myself while I'm doing
this. And I'm bringing a vetted self.
I'm bringing my best self to what I'm
going to find outside of me. And and
that may be collaboration with another
person, right? It may be talking with
another person and coming to some middle
ground when there isn't agreement. So if
we start with ourselves and we're able
to to reflect and to bring self-standing
to the four, we're much much stronger,
right? In a good way. Not stronger in
that we're going to force our way
through things, but we're much stronger
in terms of both self-nowledge and
ability to be flexible when we're out in
the real world meeting other people.
Yeah. I think it to me um the picture of
internal processing
um people
is one that and maybe I've seen too many
movies um and shows from my childhood
but that the picture is one of okay
people who internally process bring the
best version of themselves forward they
don't burden other people but I think by
now we understand as a culture that that
person while traditionally was kind of
revered. This is a kind of a male
ccentric phenotype here picture that I'm
drawing. It could be about a woman as
well. There's also this idea that
they're a little bit disconnected from
all the chatter.
>> Mhm. But in my mind, I have this belief
like if people are externally processing
a lot that they're also revealing their
uncertainty and that that's not a good
thing to reveal to the world. And again,
this probably reflects my age and the
times when I was raised and a bit about
the culture and my family, etc. But um
but I think in general that's that's
like we never really talk about like
strong silent type but lazy, [laughter]
right? Like we're thinking strong silent
and therefore getting stuff done,
>> right? Like the the the the tacit
message there is strong and silent so
they're not burdening other people with
their internal stuff. We also assume
that people who process internally are
actually processing that they're not
just sitting there. I used to joke, you
know, what's my bulldog Costello
thinking about? And I I know this isn't
true, but I used to think it was white
noise. Like maybe he was just sitting
there white noising,
>> white experiencing the world as white
noise. I mean, I don't know what he was
thinking about. So
>> could have been quantum physics.
>> Could have been quantum physics. Um I
doubt that, but it could have been qu
And if it was, you know,
>> he was good at keeping a secret.
>> Exactly. Right. Yeah. And and the
picture actually works because he he was
a big kind of stoic dog. He had his
joyful expression. But there's something
about this notion of somebody that
processes internally that gets a lot
done and maybe even serves others
although uh more than somebody who's
processing externally. And it's hard to
probe this area without kind of setting
up natural gender stereotypes here. You
know, I think the stereotype is that
women externally process more than men.
I don't know that that's actually true.
It just might be that men process less
overall. I mean, who knows? Who the hell
knows what anyone else is thinking half
the time? I don't know what I'm
thinking. So, do you think that people
who hold it in more are coming to a
greater understanding
and get more done in the world than
those that externally process?
>> No, I think not not necessarily. I think
what's best for us is a balance. And
again, it's going to be different for
each person, but there has to be a
balance of things that I know and
understand inside of myself that u that
aren't up for question that I am sure of
and resolved about. So, it might be a a
line not to cross because because it's a
certain moral boundary. I know how I
feel about it and I know where I am. Uh
I know how I feel and I know where I
stand. So, it's just one one example.
There are issues of self that we want to
feel very resolved. you know how I want
to treat people in the world and how I
want to be treated you know for example
it's good to know those things inside of
us but it is good to then test
externally about how we're interfacing
with the world if too much internal
processing can be too self-reerential
and now I may think that how I think it
should be is actually how it should be
because I haven't tested outside of me
and I haven't done enough of that
testing to see oh a lot of other people
feel differently than me and and this
isn't
a moral point where I feel sure about
how I feel. There's actually more gray
in it that I than I might have thought
as an example. So there there has to be
a balance. I mean it's always been this
way for humans. A balance of what we we
discern and know inside but bringing
that vetted self to the world means that
the vetted self also knows that it
doesn't know everything right and it's
testing in the outside world to learn
what is it that other people are
thinking. Can I learn from that? So, so
bringing in openness is also very
important about a lot of things. So, I
think that no one way of being is
better. I think we all need a balance.
That balance is going to differ. And it
involves knowing things about ourselves
and feeling resolute and also having the
humility to face the world with openness
and realizing there's a lot of things I
may think I know or think I know exactly
how something is or how something should
be. But but let me hold on for a second
and kind of check that with the outside
world so that I don't become too
self-reerential where we can become, you
know, we can become bigoted or
prejudiced. I mean that those can be
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towards some questions about physiology
and how it relates to all this. But um I
want to just peel back one more layer on
this kind of you know admittedly you
know extreme example of kind of uh I
don't want to use strong silent I want
to be internal internal processor
external processors um and and I
actually right now I'll try and
disintegrate the the strong silent type
because people immediately default to
male and I'm not doing that for
political correctness but I think about
my graduate adviser uh Barbara Chapman
um incredibly smart person and our chair
of department years ago, my chair of
department years ago described her
perfectly when he said she's quiet but
not shy.
>> So she could sit and be in a room and
observe and pay attention when she
spoke. You really did get the sense that
it counted high signal the noise because
she wasn't one to chatter much.
>> Right? There does seem to be this
assumption that if people are talking a
lot that there's a lot going on in there
all the time and some of it's just
getting out and that if people are quiet
that it's either more regulated or
there's not a whole lot going on in
there, right? And I think my chairman's
mention about my graduate advisor really
woke me up. I thought, you're right.
She's really quiet, but she's not shy.
She's not afraid to speak.
>> She's very organized and and deliberate
in what she says. Mhm.
>> And it I can't say it was always of
value. Forgive me, Barbara. You know,
she's passed away, but like sometimes it
was just, you know, casual talk, but you
did get the sense like she's a thinker.
It's not white noise in there.
>> Mhm.
>> And you do sometimes get the sense that
people who are constantly,
you know, sending words out into the
world that it has an anxiety component.
It doesn't necessarily seem that
organized. But you and I have both met.
I'm sure many people know people who are
hyperverbal but very structured.
>> Mhm.
>> In their hyperverbaless,
>> right?
>> So I I I guess I'm asking this because I
I want to kind of break down the the
notions of quiet versus verbal.
Introspective necessarily means um calm
like I mean so many assumptions around
all this. None of none of it is
necessarily true. And the reason I'm I
want to I'm so genuinely curious about
this is I think that most of the world
is confronted with this Mark Andrees
provocative question like how much time
should we spend in here and how does it
serve us when we're out here in the in
the rest of the world
>> and vice versa.
>> Like like [clears throat] if we're just
talking talking doing all day maybe we
are processing and we can be peaceful
inside lay our head down and that's it.
It's all out there for better or worse.
But for us it's great.
>> Yeah. But there's this assumption that
there's we're constant whatever we see
is also happening internally.
Yeah. I think we have to just be very
very wary of of either mapping some
stereotype of this is good and that's
not good and applying some value system
to it when we're outside of looking at a
person in a context. Right? Because all
of those things, you know, being
internalized, speaking less or being
hyperverbal, they could mean anything.
you know, anything under the sun, it has
to be who is the person and what is the
context. So, if you're describing
Barbara Chapman in meetings, right? I I
interpret that as she's she's
communicating judiciously, right? She's
in a place where maybe sometimes people
say excess things because they're self
aggrandizing or they want to bring
something up or they, you know, they're
trying to guide a conversation one way
or another. And you think, no, that
that's a place for where less is more,
right? We're not doing that. And just
communicating about something that
matters when it matters. say, "Wow,
that's speaking judiciously." I mean,
that's what it tells me about her. I
don't know if her mind was going a mile
a minute inside or if there was, you
know, a calm and equinimity, but but I
think who that person was and what that
situation was was very was adaptive,
right? Same thing if there's someone
who's speaking a lot, but you know, they
just have a lot of ideas and they're
really constructive ideas and they're
talking to people about those ideas and
they're enthusiastic and it's helpful.
Well, that sounds good to me, right?
that sounds very different than someone
who's hyperverbal and they're talking
but you, you know, you can tell they're
saying the same thing but coming from a
different angle and they're anxious and
they may want validation, right? So, so
the person in the context makes all the
difference. I mean, we we want to be
able to identify, you know, when a
person might fit a certain profile,
right? You know, there are people who
are quiet because they said they're
strong and they're silent and there's
not a lot going on inside, but they're
resolute. Okay, that's a kind of person,
right? But we shouldn't assume that that
someone is that way until we've looked
at who is that person and what is the
context in which we're assessing them.
We're human, so we fit patterns, right?
But we're all unique. So you won't know
what pattern we may be fitting until you
really look at us. One thing I love
about your book is you have probe
questions. You you have questions for
people to ask themselves.
>> Thank you.
>> To explore the self. And I think for me
that was a is a huge gift of of the book
and and the work in it. You know, when I
got to see an advanced copy, I was like,
you know, obviously you understand the
theory and the science and you're a
clinician, but for me, um like, okay,
what do I ask myself
>> and how do I go about doing that? how do
I figure out what's going right as a at
least as a stepping stone to maybe
exploring what's not going right? But
certainly to really understand where my
strengths might lie. And I think that's
a it's a really unique gift because I
think that um we don't have enough of
that. I think we have a lot of what's
going wrong, where are the friction
points, what's wrong with me kind of
stuff
>> and what's wrong with the world. And I
think starting from that place of really
knowing what the questions are to ask
oneself is uh I just personally found
immensely useful.
>> Yeah. And I realize we're we're mainly
discussing theory and and um at up until
now, although I'm about to ask you a
very practical question, which is
assuming no pathology, no um life
crippling anxiety or depression or
panic, how much do you think people
should try and adjust their what I call
the autonomic set point? Like some
people are just more, you know,
expressive with their hands, with their
words. They they want to move a lot
more. And if they don't, it makes them
anxious,
>> right?
>> Other people are more still. And we
again assume that if they're physically
still that things are probably a bit
more still internally and that's not
necessarily a bad thing, but there is a
lot of emphasis, including on this
podcast, on learning to sit with stress,
learning to sit with anxiety, and not
just letting it out or experiencing it.
And sometimes I wonder despite knowing
the immense value of those tools. I mean
I've benefited so much from things like
non-sleep deep rest and meditation and
things like that and I know others have
as well. But I mean how much should we
be trying to control our states? I I do
wonder if it's good for us um to think
that there's something wrong for us if
we feel a certain way. Period. I think
controlling our states in order to help
us be at our best is different from
trying to control our states so that we
change ourselves, right? So, so if you
you're finding um you know a deep state
of peace that's not sleep, right? You
find oh that helps you be a better you,
right? That finding that peace just it
gives you some groundedness and you feel
healthier for it and you're better able
to solve problems. So, you know, you're
learning something and doing something
because it serves you well and it helps
you be at your best, right? That's
different than thinking, oh, I need to
be different, right? If a person thinks,
well, I need to be different and I need
to be calmer or more more peaceful. What
does that what does that mean? And is
that person imposing something external
on themselves? So, there are people who
are very active and and yes, you could
they can sit quietly sometimes, right?
But they're not really built for it,
right? They're active people and it
works for them to be active and they may
be quite meditative when they don't seem
to be quite meditative, right? They can
be doing something and you know we see a
lot of movement in them but but inside
they can be in a meditative state. So
it's it's so easy for for us to we're
it's well-meaning in that we're trying
to understand, right? We're trying to
understand ourselves and we're trying to
understand others and we're trying to
find patterns, but but it's so tempting
to think that we know something, right?
Because we're just observing someone in
a certain state or we're observing
someone talking or not talking, right?
To go, what does that mean? And we have
to ask the right questions, right, in
order to get there. So, so the only way
we really know the answers for a person
is we have to understand that person and
we have to understand their context. So,
we must ask the right questions. You
know, you had talked about trying to
write practical routes of approach to
ourselves in the book, right? I'm I'm
doing that because, you know, think of
if someone wanted to learn physics,
would you say, well, just stop, go
somewhere and think about physics,
right? Like, no. There there has to be a
route of approach of saying, well, well,
here's some of the basic knowledge, you
know, think about this, approach that
way. um read from this book and then
that book, right? Like there are ways
that we're guided in how to learn
things. And it's interesting that we
don't have these guides for what's most
important, which is learning about
ourselves. So it brings us back to why
it can make us so uncomfortable, so
anxious to say, "Okay, we're going to
sit with oursel." It's like saying,
"Well, sit with yourself and and you
know, learn horiculture." It's like, I
don't know, like I'll sit with myself,
but but you have to help me. you have to
help me figure out how to learn that or
I'm going to feel anxious about sitting
there if I don't know how to go about
it. Right? So, so if we have the prompts
to look at ourselves now, what we're
doing is we're making it real. We're
asking the right questions of ourselves
to think, oh, what how do I function?
What does work well for me? You know,
how do I think of myself? How do others
think of me? Am I introverted or
extroverted? Am I a combination of both?
Do I sometimes feel in one state and
sometimes in another? Is it working for
me? Right? Is it working for me in the
big picture? Are there parts of the
small picture that work for me or things
I really don't like or things where I
really don't feel uncomfortable? Now,
we're bringing curiosity. And yes, we we
want to learn from patterns and and
learn from all the knowledge we have of
the world, but we're taking that and
saying, "Hey, none of that actually
means anything until it's directed
towards me. If I'm the person reflecting
about myself or if it's a helping
process, we're helping a friend or or
you know, we're in a a therapy process."
you know, we have to take everything
that we know and then it's all seen
through the lens of that person. We have
to do it that way or we'll lead
ourselves astray. If you're willing, um
I'm curious about uh throwing out a sort
of a generic clinical session example.
Let's assume you know something about
the family background of a patient and
there's nothing glaringly obvious in the
background about trauma or maybe there
is but you know that there's nothing
really to dig into there just yet and
the person comes to you and says
yeah I don't know I'm like I'm like work
is okay but this and so and so at work
at that and I guess this is good and you
know and they're I don't know they're
dating and they're in their life and I
swear I'm not trying to get a free
therapy session Here I'm I'm just trying
to imagine. So someone says, you know,
and then like the news is really
bothering me and that, you know, and
just kind of reporting,
>> right?
>> You observe human patterns. I mean, your
pattern recognition is presumably
oriented towards where there's emotion,
where there's patterns in them, how it
matches to templates that only you could
harbor. The same way that a really
amazing neurosurgeon would look into the
brain and see a pattern of ep epileptic
seizure and would be like okay this is
even without remembering those specific
cases I know which direction to go at
this to explore when you hear all that
stuff and the stuff I'm talking about
here is deliberately meant to reflect
what you see a lot of on social media
upset about that political team upset
about that politically in my life is
this but this but this but what does
that tell you and what does it tell you
specifically about where that person
should invest effort into thinking or
doing. I realize it's impossible to give
a a pan prescriptive here, but like what
does that mean when somebody's just
really absorbed by all the things going
on around them and things feel good, but
>> Mhm.
>> where do you start to probe and where do
you start to um encourage them at least
until the next session?
>> The way to probe is to encourage
reflection, right? Because with what you
said, I think, well, I'm hearing
somebody reporting, right? It's like
they're just telling me the news, right,
of what went on. I'm doing this, I'm
doing that. Mom did this, dad did that.
>> It's kind of an inventory or a laundry
list, right? So, what it makes me think
is, huh, I wonder how much of that
you're really choosing,
>> right? Or how much of that is is
intentional or how much of that is just
a reflex?
>> The behaviors that in their life, how
much of it they're choosing or how or
the reporting?
>> No, the the behaviors. How much of what
they're reporting? Like how much of that
are you really choosing,
>> right? How much of that is what you want
to be doing? How much of that is working
for you? Right? What we're trying to do
then or what I want to do then is is
encourage like to have some interest in
examination of like, well, why am I
doing all of this? Right? Maybe some of
this I really like and I am interested
in and others of it I'm just doing
because it's habit or it's routine. I
don't even know why I'm doing it or you
know if I'm dating what who am I dating?
Why why am I dating? How am I choosing?
Is that is that also just something that
I do? How much am I just kind of along
for the ride of what I'm doing that just
has forward momentum versus what am I
really choosing? Now, if we stop and we
look at it that way, what are you really
choosing? And and also what's working
for you. Now, we're we're off to the
races of an examined life. And you know,
we see this as I know you know, we do a
lot of intensive work. We do it with
individuals. We do it with couples where
we try and move this process forward
very very very
um rapidly of looking at one's own life
and it's very interesting that sometimes
you know by midway through the second
day of an intensive process the person
wants to revisit almost everything they
realize you know 10 20% of of of all
those things I just said I this is what
I do right I really I really value and
and I want to be doing more of the
others I'm not so sure of right I don't
know why I'm doing some of those things
now And we we are we're really along the
process of change because we're looking
at ourselves. And it may seem strange
that someone would see the 80% of what I
just told you I do. I don't know if I
want to do or if it's working for me.
But that happens all the time when when
we're not examining our lives. They just
kind of run forward and we accumulate
what we accumulate, right? And and it's
like, well, this is what we we are
because this is what I've accumulated
by, you know, grabbing and carrying with
me as I'm moving through life. And
there's not an organization to it. So,
so this idea that we must examine our
our lives is at the the heart of all of
this. That's how we we keep mental
health and our structure of self and our
function of self. We keep our our drives
in balance. We set ourselves on a path
where where we are in a place to to meet
future challenges from the best health
we can have and also to to meet future
opportunities. So, just like we want to
do with our physical health, right? We
want to build good physical health.
Likewise, we want to build good mental
health when that's the best way to be
when life throws us whatever curveballs
are going to come our way. And it's also
the best way to have a good life to be
on the front foot of life. But we need
to examine ourselves and we need a
process and a structure in order to
build good mental health the way we
build good physical health. And
ultimately that's how we build good
health. So what I'm hearing is in order
to gain more agency over any areas of
our life, we have to ask the why
question. Why am I doing what I'm doing
now? And why aren't I doing this other
thing that perhaps would serve me
better? Like the it starts with
questions
>> of self. What do you do? And this must
be incredibly frustrating. At least it
would be to me. What do you do if
somebody you say, "Well,
why aren't you the person, well, I know
I should work out, but I don't." And you
say, "Well, why not?" You know, they
say, "Well, I don't know. I'm tired. I
know I should." you then you say, "Well,
you know, um, why do you still hang out
with Sharon when you always come back
from it feeling totally exhausted and
feeling like you've just had all this
stuff done?" Oh, you know, I don't know.
Like, what do you how do you work past
the the person who's just like, "This is
just life. This is just this is just
what life requires. I got to work. I got
my friends. Like, what am I going to do?
Overhaul?" you know, and uh and and I
this probably varies by region and by
generation, the extent to which people
are willing to like look at things and
think and and kind of spin them around
like rotate the cube as I like to call
it and look at it from underneath a bit
and just as a practice like to some
people that's okay cool you know I'll
I'll you know play the no one listens to
albums anymore but uh the same way they
used to but I'll play the album in
reverse for a bit maybe it'll give me
something different maybe people are
like ah that's the album like that's
just how I do
So, how do you get somebody to do this?
And of course, I'm not asking you to
tell us this so that people can uh play
therapist with others even though they
they naturally do. I'm asking this
because hopefully this is what people
will do for themselves.
>> Well, if someone is talking in the way
of the person you described, right,
saying, "Well, this is just what I do."
And and they're describing I think you
said every time they go out with Sharon,
they come home and they feel kind of
drained and they don't feel good. then
they move on to something else and to
something else and they might talk about
their job and you know something that's
frustrating them all the time and and
they just keep going forward. Then I
might say, well, what you're what you're
doing is you're showing both of us where
the X's are. You know, the X's mark the
spot, right, to dig, right? So you
you're showing us, hey, here's where
there's some treasure, right? Let's dig
where this X is. So, so if you're going
out with someone and and every time you
see that person, you come home and you
feel a sense of lethargy and you feel a
sense of time wasn't well spent and you
kind of feel hopeless. Well, it's really
important to to think about why you're
doing that, right? And I would link it
to something else. So, I might say, "So,
you know, you had said earlier on or a
couple of sessions ago that you really
want to find a partner and you really
want to find a good relationship. So, so
that's important to you. You told me
that it was and now you're telling me
that you you keep seeing this person
where you know every time you go out the
front door that nothing good is going to
come of it and you're going to come back
feeling worse than than when you left.
Like we should look at why. And and we
don't have to be scared to look at why
because this is where the fear comes in.
Like oh my gosh, what is wrong with me?
Why would I be doing that? Right?
Somewhere inside of them that person
knows that's not working for me but I'm
still doing it. So there's some fear of
looking at that. So if we say hey no
harm no foul like let's just let's think
about why you know it may be that that
person really wants that that person in
this case I can think it's Sharon wants
Sharon to like them right and and maybe
they they feel a need to be liked so
they don't like this person but they
think they need this person to like them
maybe maybe they're a person who always
takes too too much care of others versus
themselves and they don't like Sharon
but Sharon likes them right so they
don't really want to end that
relationship there's something going on
there because the person is saying,
"Hey, I'm doing this thing that
absolutely won't get me what I want and
I'll keep doing it." You say, "Well,
that's not really what what you want. If
if you if you are doing it over and over
again, you think you're going to keep
doing it. It's just because, you know,
you haven't felt empowered enough that,
hey, I can understand myself and I can
bring some change so that so that my
behaviors, my my choices are actually in
line with my wishes, you know, with my
strivings." So now we get that person
interested, right? We tell them that
there is an X. Let's understand why it
is that you're still going out with
Sharon, right? There's got to be
something to learn there. And and there
always is. If if we dig where the X's
are, we do get some treasure. It might
be a little, it might be a lot, but we
learn from that and and we bring that
learning to life. The rubber hits the
road as that leads to real life change.
That makes really good sense. And and
thank you for the clarity of that
answer. It brings us back to asking why
to develop more agency around possibly
making different choices. It's not
always I mean one I guess one could
realize like they really um they want
that kind of relationship but with
someone else or they want um a
completely different kind of
relationship with the same person.
Right. Right. And and to work on that
but it starts with asking questions.
Yes. I realize I'm going backwards into
this, but it goes from um inventories
are
a start toward informing what questions
are useful.
>> Useful questions probe understanding
that hopefully develops more agency. Do
you encourage people once they get to a
point of oh yeah like maybe I want a
different sort of relationship to this
person or thing or activity in life do
you give them specific act action
directives like yeah like how about
between this session and next session
like you go to the gym twice
>> you do whatever there
>> maybe watch TV and just like pedal you
know uh on the bike and or maybe you go
and you like really take a course or or
a class rather do you tend to give
people clear directives about what could
really help if you sense that that could
really help
>> sometimes but I think it's much more
effective if it's arrived at
collaboratively so so if we decide hey
you know would be really really good and
we both agree we we've talked back and
forth now and if if you can get to the
gym once before you come back next week
right and then we talk about that back
and forth like maybe that person wants
to go to the gym five times you know
before they come back but each time they
do that they get frustrated with
themselves and they don't go at all.
Right? So, we might say, look, we've
been talking about this and maybe I'll
say it and maybe the other maybe the
patient will say it, right? And to say,
look, I do I do want to be going to the
gym. I want to be getting exercise and I
see I go between too much and too
little, right? I go between taking on
too much and I get frustrated. I don't
do anything. How about something that's
more measured? Okay, maybe I'll try and
go on Monday and Friday. I make that
maybe decide, yeah, you know what? Maybe
twice is twice is okay. Or should it be
once, right? because if you get once
under your belt, you can get twice under
your belt the next week. So, we're we're
just trying to understand so there's no
mystery to it and we we know what we're
doing. So, someone who wants to have a a
different relationship and says, "Well,
maybe I could have a good relationship
with Sharon, but I'd have to talk to her
about A, B, and C that isn't really
going well. Okay, how might you do
that?" Right? Like, let's think about
it, right? Because that communication
isn't going to happen unless you bring
it. And what's keeping you from that?
How might you approach her in a way that
you could really talk? what's what's
holding you back? So, we're we're trying
to problem solve, but we're doing so in
a way that's that's open where we know
what we're doing and we're not bringing
some magic or mystery to it. We're
trying to move ahead and we understand
it's one step at a time and we want to
take those steps. So, we don't want
someone to think often we want a process
of change to occur so fast that we it
can't possibly occur as fast as we want
it to and then we get frustrated in two
weeks, right? So, we have to set
reasonable expectations of, hey, it
might be you could really get somewhere
with this in a couple of months. It
seems like that from our conversations.
What do you think? Or we we make sure
we're on the same page. And then we say,
well, one week after another, like we
could put one foot in front of the other
and we can get ourselves there. And it's
not easy. So, it might not be easy to
say, broach that first conversation with
Sharon or or get yourself to the gym
that first time, right? But we can help
you bolster yourself so all your arrows
are going in the same direction. You set
yourself up for success. you know,
you're not going to try to go to to go
the morning after a long night out. And,
you know, we set you up for success and
you get a win and small wins empower and
embolden us to to to to take a little
bit more chances and get bigger wins.
And, you know, if our if our structure
of self and our function of self are in
good places, then what rests on top of
that is empowerment. There's a sense of
empowerment in us and also a sense of
humility that that lets us accept that
we're human, that things aren't perfect.
and maybe I have been making the same
mistake over and over again. Like it's
it's all okay. I'm I'm human. And if I
have the humility to accept that and I
have empowerment, then I can meet the
world through agency and this active
gratitude. You know, I'm I'm grateful
that Sharon's still here and I can I can
talk to her, right? I'm grateful that
there's a gym for me to go to. I'm
healthy enough for me to get myself
there and I've got enough agency inside
of myself that I'm going to do these
things that I've decided to do. This is
how we we make life change, whether it
be small or big. And how do we get to
big life change? It starts with small
steps. I'd like to take a quick break
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Okay, so once again, we're talking about
asking the right questions. There's no
doubt that our the families were born
into and uh the families we grew up
around and the people we grew up around
impact us tremendously.
At what point does it make sense to try
and think about the patterns that you
were exposed to as a way to have more
agency to ask better questions about why
you know I think right now in addition
to this you know little not so little
debate about the value of introspection
versus just doing and clearly it's both
there's also a debate going on about how
much to think about the past and traumas
etc.
I won't go into why this is really of
the times right now, but the the dilemma
seems to be
do you look at your life as something
that's happening now and focus on the
why questions so you do what you need to
do to make your life better
or is there real value in identifying
patterns that you observed or were
forced to participate in as a kid
as a way of having more agency. In other
words, if someone sees or just verbally
hears a pattern, does it actually help
them make change?
>> Yes, it does. Yes. It's it's insight
that sets us free and it's insight that
puts us in the driver's seat of our
lives. Otherwise, we're just reacting.
So So in the example that you gave, so
imagine a a person who had a very
overcontrolling parent. So So they don't
have insight and they become
overcontrolling themselves. They they
they associate that high level of
control with being powerful. They feel
less vulnerable when they're being
powerful. So they end up being
overcontrolling with their own children
just like their parents were. We say,
"Okay, we we can recognize that and
we'll say it's pattern repetition or
whatever words we want to put to it and
we go, "Oh gosh, that person doesn't
have insight." Right? But but when the
person is doing the opposite, that's not
necessarily good either. So So a person
could say, "Well, my parent was
overcontrolling. I'm going to be
easygoing, right? I'm going to be more
easygoing. But if that person doesn't
have insight, then they can become too
permissive, right? So now they're not
they're not controlling things in a way
that does make sense. They're not
exercising the healthy control of a
parent. So they could they could
identify with what the parent did and do
the same thing. Or they could push away
with from it and do the opposite. But
but the opposite isn't good either,
right? It's insight that lets us say,
"Oh, no. my my parent or parents were
were overcontrolling and and maybe that
even it got to a place where was very
very difficult and maybe even abusive
and and I don't want to be like that
right and I'm not going to be like that
but I'm not going to rush to the
opposite pole either right and now I
have to I get to I both have to and get
to figure out what's a healthy level of
control right how much control does it
make sense to exert to to keep the child
safe for example but also to then allow
the child enough latit itude to be
growing and making their own decisions.
So it's insight that says, "Oh, I I see
I see what that was in my past and often
we do need to do that. Often early
childhood experiences, especially
experiences within family units have a
great impact upon us and often will
guide our behaviors and then kind of
like automatons. We're acting one way or
we're acting another and we don't know
why." But it's insight that lets us gain
the understanding. Here's how it was
when I was growing up. I can look at
that. I can see it. good, bad or
otherwise, right? And then I can decide
how do I want to integrate that
information, how the whole me is going
to be in the driver's seat of being a
good parent. So there seems to be
something fundamentally valuable about
insights where
we realize I want to push away from
something a pattern or I want to get
more
like someone or something that that is
uh you know would serve me better. Um,
and and I realize that might just be a
giant duh based on what you said, but
I'm trying to think about what that
means about the mind, about the human
mind.
>> I can imagine that there are instances
where people are in patterns of behavior
and they're struggling with them.
They're not working for them and they
know it and they want to make the
change. This is this is the thing I hear
all the time. I want to make I know I
should do it. I know I should do it, but
they don't do it. What you're saying is
when they when we can
know that that pattern was something we
observed or we're doing the opposite of
something we observed doesn't matter
which
suddenly we have agency what do you
think that is this is this is a
different kind of question than I've
been asking up until now like what is
that because
my clinician can tell me hey you know
what you should really start to eat
better and get to sleep on time because
we both No, this isn't serving you well.
And the version comes back and they're
not doing the behaviors. They're not
changing their behaviors. They're not
chang. And then you ask them, hey, like
what is this about? And you get to a
place where it reflects something in
childhood. They're either going against
or they're going with that pattern.
You're telling me that that realization
gives them a sense of agency. Aha. It's
it's comes from me, but I didn't program
that in like what is the insight? Like
what allows that? What is the wedge that
lets people change their behavior simply
by understanding that
>> some or all of it is inherited from a
pattern? When we realize that there's
something whether it's external or
internal controlling us, right, it it
diffuses that tension and part of why it
diffuses the tension and and lets us see
clearly and gives us control is because
we don't like it. You know, none of us
want to be like in the the Manurion
candidate, right? where there's a sound
and then we behave in a certain way and
you know we're triggered in a certain
way and then we just do something and we
do it automatically like we don't like
that and and if we realize oh that's
happening in me so if I realize gosh
I've been programmed right and and if
someone is disagreeing with me like it
makes me feel so bad or so vulnerable or
insecure you know it makes me feel like
I felt when I was a kid right so now
what I'm doing is I'm being just like
the parent was I'm not giving my child a
chance to have his or her own opinion
and now because I won't let myself
tolerate that feeling. So, so what's
happened is it's just been automatic
from when I was a kid and it felt so bad
and now I'm in the position of trying to
make myself feel good by imposing that
on my own child. I don't want to do
that, right? Wow. I I see that or or
realizing that because that happened and
and I wasn't allowed to have my own say
when I was growing up, I'm I'm letting
my children kind of run wild in ways
that aren't even safe for them. And and
and wow, like I I I pushed so hard
against that, right? It's this
realization that that something inside
of us is is being triggered and then we
just do something automatically that we
haven't thought about or decided to,
right? That is a very very strong uh
effect on humans. We really don't like
that. So, if we can combine that with
with compassionate curiosity, like if if
one of us were really really really
hungry and there's food right outside
the door, but we're not getting up to
get it, it's a reasonable question to
ask why, right? I mean, it's got to be
something very powerful to keep a person
who's so hungry from just going and
getting food. What are these forces
within us that are exerting such control
over us? Now we get the person to be on
their own side instead of saying, "I
want to do A, B, and C, but I just can't
or there's just not enough time."
They're like, "Whoa, that's not, you
know, I I telling myself, do I really
want to do it? If I do, what's keeping
me from do it? How am I keeping me from
doing it?" Now, we bring our gumption,
you know, we bring our our our resources
internally and externally to the problem
and and the whole thing shifts.
Oh man, that helps a lot. Not just me, I
have to say people not feeling
motivated, people not being able to
break a pattern that isn't serving them,
whether or not it's action or inaction
is probably the most common question I
get.
>> It's the most common theme. It's
probably the reason why podcasts like
this can exist. I mean, I think people
have an natural curiosity about the
science and the intellectual aspects
and, you know, neural circuits and
hormones and all that kind of stuff, but
I think ultimately people want more
agency over their behavior. They want to
feel that.
>> Yes.
>> And I think what you said is is like
blaring in the room, at least for me,
that people don't like to be controlled.
Mhm.
>> So much so that we know that uh we got
kids to quit smoking u back in the you
know in the 90s early 2000s by
advertisements of um
rich old white men writhing their hands
cackling about the health problems that
people are getting while they're getting
rich. That's what stopped teens from
smoking.
>> Right? It was you're not going to
control me. It wasn't that they didn't
like smoking. Nicotine is incredibly
reinforcing. Right? The moment that you
have an enemy, you feel the sense of
agency that you you said, "No, you're on
your own side."
>> So realizing one is being controlled,
>> right,
>> is I realize I'm just saying what you're
saying, but I want to make sure this
really resonates in my own mind. And for
the listeners, that's
the essence of of agency. You have to be
on your own side. and to get on your own
side. It's helpful to not necessarily
have an enemy, but to say, "Oh, this was
this is all about my parents, and I'm
going in the opposite direction in ways
that are defeating me. I'm they're
controlling me even though I think I'm
controlling me." Boom.
>> Right.
>> Right.
>> Behavior changes. Or, oh this is
just like
>> my mom or just like my dad or just like
the environment I grew up in and now you
somebody can advocate for themselves.
>> Yes.
>> I also see this in the in the media
nowadays. is I mean that so much of
social media is about us them and gosh
people are like perfectly happy for
understandable reasons to be like you're
not going to control me. We saw this
during the pandemic. We see we see this
at every level. What is this human thing
about not wanting to be controlled that
in this context is very positive,
>> right?
>> Yeah.
>> We there's something about the human
primate brain.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Like we we don't like to be
controlled and that sense of agency can
can blossom out of that.
>> Yeah.
>> I think that's incredible.
>> Yeah. We don't want to think or know
that that someone or something is
putting one over on us. Like, you know,
humans don't want to be dupes. We don't
we don't like that, right? It makes us
upset. And here the magic realization is
that there is no enemy, right? That that
we can get in our own way. and who's
most likely to thwart my efforts towards
being healthier. It's absolutely me,
right? So, I can get in my own way, but
it doesn't mean I'm my enemy. So, if I
if I do really I want to be healthier
and I want to get to the gym to be
healthier. Okay, who's standing in my
way then? It will be me that say, well,
why am I standing in my way? I secretly
hate myself and I want myself not to be
healthy. No, it's it's not that. If I'm
standing in my own way, there's a
reason. I really think that that I have
so much to do and and and it's for other
people and it means more than me. So
really, I don't think I deserve the time
and energy it would it would take. I'm
not going to spend it on myself. Maybe
that's why I don't go. Or maybe I don't
go because I'm trying to protect myself,
right? Because I'm worried. The last
couple times I tried it didn't go well
and I felt worse. So I don't even want
to start. So I'm standing in my own way
because of fear of failure. Right?
There's a lot of reasons. There's many,
many, many reasons we could be standing
in our own way, but we're not our own
enemy. So, the realization of like, why
am I doing this? I don't have to do
this. Actually, there's one me and I
could say, well, if I both if I really
want to go to the gym, but I'm not
going. I want to go and I don't want to
go. It must be true or I'd be there,
right? Why is it that I don't want to
go? Am I not worth the time and energy?
Maybe. Do I think there are more
important things to do? Really, I do
really think that, right? Right? And I'm
not admitting it to myself. Uh am I
afraid that if I try I'll fail? Right?
There's got to be a reason for that. So,
let me get on the same page. As I've
often said to to to to further the
example would be, hey, you get to decide
if you if if you go to the gym or not.
We just want you to be on the same page
with yourself. Like, you can decide not
to if you say, actually, there are more
there things that are bigger uh
priorities for my time now. Someone else
is sick. I'm taking care of that person.
It really that is what I'm choosing now.
Okay. So, I'm not going to go now. and
the whole me decides that. But on the
other side of this, when this drain on
time, my time and energy is different,
then I am going to go. Right now, the
person's on the same page and they're
not making themselves feel worse by
wanting to go and not going. Or I might
say, I really do want to go, but I know
I'm standing in my own way because I'm
afraid I'll fail. Okay. And then maybe I
get upset the last eight times I tried,
I failed. Right? You know, now we're
we're really digging, you know, where
the money's at, right? Because we go and
look and say, "Okay, you're you're
protecting yourself. How do we how do we
try and set you up for success? So, so
you'll want to go forward this time
because you'll see that it's different
from the other times and you won't just
be repeating something that just made
you feel bad. So, that's how we get our
all our arrows pointing in the same
direction. We realize there is no enemy
here. There is me standing in my own
way, but like that's okay. I I can look
at that and I can figure that out. And
now we're at that simple goodness
principle where, you know, we're all on
the same page with ourselves and we
accomplish our goals.
We wouldn't wish trauma on anybody. But
how is it then that people who had
reasonably healthy or traumaf-free
childhoods, how do they operate in the
world? Are they moving toward things
from a genuine place of curiosity and
they're not pushing off anything uh in
this, you know, idyllic example? Uh that
they're not countering a childhood
example. Does that represent the
ultimate goal that we're moving towards
things because we want them and we're
not resisting anything nor are we
copying bad patterns from our from our
childhood?
>> Yes, in the sense that I think that's
what I would map to living
intentionally, right? To being as
self-aware as we can be while also
realizing we can't be completely
self-aware and then living
intentionally. So, yes, that's what
we're trying to get to. and the presence
of trauma of of real trauma that
overwhelms our coping skills and leaves
our brain function different going
forward. It does make it harder, right,
to achieve these things, which is why we
want to look at trauma if there are
traumas in our lives and how they they
may have changed us, but it doesn't
prevent that. I mean, people can have
significant traumas and still be on this
path and and have some insight into how
the trauma is affecting them and and
even insight that the trauma needs more
work maybe to really get our arms around
it. But that person can still get there.
Likewise, someone who hasn't had trauma
might have real difficulty getting
there. If I haven't had major trauma,
but you know, just circumstances or my
own maybe overly ambitious with not
enough time and energy. Hey, I did try
and get to the gym four or five times
and it didn't work out. And I really do
feel down on myself. And it's not linked
to any prior trauma. It's just I've
gotten in this cycle and every time I
think about being healthier, now I'm
telling myself, "Oh, you'll never be
able to do it or you messed it up three
times." And so I'm inadvertently making
it harder for myself. And and without
any pre-existing trauma, that person
could end up having much more trouble,
you know, than someone who does have
pre-existing trauma. Or how do you
respond to the words, "I get tired just
thinking about it."
Like something that would be good for
somebody. I get tired just thinking
about it. And it involves energy,
>> right?
>> I'm not giving you a a very full
picture, but I'm guessing you've heard
those words before.
>> Oh, I want to understand a lot more
about that. What that tells me is
there's a lot of brain space and a lot
of energy that's taken up in the
thinking of it. So for for a lot of
people, they get so tired of thinking
about trying to go to the gym because
thinking about trying to go to the gym
takes more energy from them than
actually being there, right? Because
it's running around in their head how
they failed and how bad they're going to
feel and how they really want to do this
and maybe they will, maybe they won't.
And there's so much going on inside of
them that they're making something very,
very complicated. So I I want to
understand why all that energy inside,
right? And is there a way that we can
simplify that? That's a marker that
there's something going on that that we
we want to be able to get at because
it's not the healthiest process, you
know, to say that there's a lot of
internal turmoil about something that
almost certainly can be better
understood and simplified.
>> So that statement represents 10 mental
workouts that is exhausting them. At
least at least that's the the the the
sense it might give you
>> with no in improvement in physical
health. So the 10 mental workouts just
dis just wasted that energy, right?
There is no improvement in physical
health. Let's take those 10 mental
workouts and figure out, you know, how
can we turn that into one physical
workout. That person's going to feel a
lot better physically and mentally. I
want to table a couple of common
statements about the mind and
psychology. I'm perfectly willing to
accept that they're true, but I have a
feeling they're at least not entirely
true.
>> Okay.
>> One is however you talk to others,
that's also how you talk to yourself. Is
this just like nonsense? I mean, there's
some people that are very harsh with
other people. Are they walking around
being harsh to themselves or are they
like just peaceful in there and they're
like externalizing all I had a a former
colleague, let's just keep him
anonymous, a former colleague and he
used to say, "I don't get stressed, I
give stress."
>> That feels true to me. Um, you know, he
gave up all his cards by telling me
that. Um, but so I was grateful for that
statement. But he he was very proud of
it. He's like, I don't I don't get
stressed. I I give stress. And I
thought, I bet you he's pretty stressed
in there. And then I realized I don't
know what the hell is going on in there.
Maybe he's just absolutely right. So can
we make that assumption that how people
treat others is really how they treat
themselves. No.
>> Sometimes that may be true, but
sometimes that may not be true. So this
statement has no validity. Maybe yes,
maybe no. You have to look at the person
and look at the situation. For most
people when uh when there's a difference
between the two it is not the person who
say is externalizing all that stress
giving everybody stress but they feel
calm inside right that is not a healthy
way to be and there's something going on
there that's different right that that
is that is an issue that warrants really
looking at and addressing there's a
problem
>> there for most people if it's different
it's the opposite where people are
treating others much much better than
they're treating themselves And they may
say, "Well, that's okay. You know, maybe
we each made a mistake." And I get it.
Everyone makes mistakes, right? I may
say that to you, but then go, "What's
wrong with me?" Or, you know, I'm I
maybe act very differently inside. And
that's mostly what good people do is we
we'll give other people a kind word or a
benefit of the doubt, but we get very
harsh and our and our language and our
tone inside of ourselves can be can be
very different. And, you know, this idea
of if you if you're going to make
yourself special, don't make yourself
special in a negative way, right? I mean
it's it's you know partly ingest but it
but it is saying for most of us who are
making ourselves special it is in a
negative way other people can can you
know can get um they can get a pass
about about something they made an
honest mistake or you know we'll give
them another chance whatever it may be
but for us we may use much harsher
language you know what's wrong with me
I'm an idiot I messed that up again and
there's a lot of that going on inside of
us so so no if we're if we're treating
other people kindly it may be that we're
treating ourselves kindly inside, but
but that is certainly not a given. And
if we're being unkind to other people,
that most of the time there is some real
turmoil and and that person is not
feeling okay inside. The person who's
making other people unhappy and they
themselves feel okay. That's a different
kind of problem and it's not a common
one.
In your book, you uh talk about
intrusive thoughts and things that
people can do to deal with intrusive
thoughts. If you wouldn't mind, could
you give us a few um you know, a few
examples of things that people can do to
deal with intrusive thoughts?
>> Well, the first is we have to identify
it. And there are people who have
intrusive thoughts. Something they may
say to themselves hundreds of times a
day and they're not aware of it until
they stop and think like, what am I
saying to myself over and over again? Or
what's running around? Being aware of
our self-t talk, right? the idea that
like that like we're not going to we're
not safe or worried about one's children
and safety or or worried about I'm going
to get fired or there's not going to be
there's not going to be enough. You
know, these things can come to us over
and over again without us being aware of
it. So so the first thing is we must be
aware and it may sound strange to say we
could say something to ourselves
hundreds of times over and not be aware
of it but absolutely that happens. So,
so we have to be curious. What is it
that I'm saying to myself in these quiet
moments? And then what purpose is it
serving? So, if if I keep telling myself
that that nothing's going to be okay,
like why am I saying that? You know, am
I so afraid that nothing's going to be
okay that I'm trying to save myself from
the shock of nothing being okay? Maybe,
right? Maybe that's going on. Am I just
so afraid about something? You know,
something happened in the past. Someone
was hurt or there was a loss and and now
the intrusive thoughts tell me that
things can't be okay. But what it's
telling me is I haven't processed that
loss. Like there's there is is going to
be a meaning. There is is a meaning to
intrusive thoughts. There always is. So
we want to recognize them. We want to
look for that meaning. And then there's
strategies of what we can do. And and
they can range from thought redirection.
Sometimes we think something because
we're thinking it over and over again.
And if we thought redirect, it gives us
greater control. Sometimes we diffuse
some of the energy in it by
understanding, you know, why we're
thinking that thing and maybe taking
measures. If I'm worried that that like
I'm not safe and things aren't going to
be okay, maybe I'm letting myself be in
an unsafe situation, right? And I need
to change that situation, this is a
place sometimes medicines can help. So
there there are a lot of things that we
can bring to bear, but we first have to
recognize that they're happening and
then running countercurrent to modern
mental health. Often is we have to
actually understand why if if we want
that to change for the better. if we
want to really get, you know, get into
the engine and figure it out instead of
just trying to polish the hood and, you
know, not look at where that problem is
coming from.
>> In keeping with commonly discussed
themes out in the world that I question,
are our dreams informative? And is there
anything that we can know about
ourselves, like patterns of thinking
when we're awake, that make our dreams
more informative? For example, if I tend
to think in analogy or parallel
construction and will the content of my
dreams be more meaningful to me to
understand through the lens of analogy
or parallel construction?
>> I'm not sure about the last point. I I I
don't know. You know, I just don't know.
And and my clinical experience has been
people's dreams can have a lot of
meaning, you know, regardless of what
kind of thinker they are. So someone who
might be for example a very concrete
thinker may have dreams that are really
telling us a lot because what the
unconscious mind wants to bring to the
surface doesn't have a lot of room to do
that right because that that person is
you know is thinking concretely and
they're not thinking in in analogies or
parallel processes and they're not
opening up their mind that way. So the
dream is is expressing something there's
no other way of getting to the surface.
Um or it may be people who are very
expressive and cultivate routes of of
expression, you know, have informative
dreams. I I I think the one the one
factor is being curious about ourselves,
right? Because then we tend to remember
more what went on inside of us. You
know, we tend to then either think
through enough or write down and and
become curious about ourselves. So, I
think being curious about what our
brains are telling us during sleep can
be very helpful. I haven't known of
another quality or characteristic of a
person that really points strongly one
way or another. And sometimes dreams
don't have meaning or they don't have
meaning we can we can clearly discern.
So we have to be careful. We have to be
respectful of how complex our minds are
and and sometimes we're looking to read
something in to a dream or you know we
want to see it as a marker along the
path where you know our thought is
going. So so we have to be very careful
and very sort of levelheaded. But I if
we approach that way, it can be
remarkable, amazing what dreams can can
sometimes tell us and how and how
something can come out allegorically in
a person, you know, that is, you know,
speaking to um events that have unfolded
across years, you know, in a large
family system and and you find in a very
simple way, an allegorical way, the
brain is capturing that. So curiosity
about ourselves and our dreams can
really give us a lot of insight, but we
have to be we have to be careful about
it and be respectful of our own
complexity.
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In your previous book on trauma and in
our previous discussions about trauma,
uh you've said that anxiety, trauma,
stress doesn't know the clock or the
calendar. Time is erased. The negative
feelings that one feels in those states
seems like it's going to go on forever,
which is why it's so scary. Mhm.
>> So it sort of suggests that you know
that the way that we thread ourselves
through our life is by kind of
segmenting time like that was then this
is now right that's a healthy version
you know that the past doesn't
necessarily dictate the present the
present doesn't necessarily dictate the
future but I think for many people the
fear the anxiety they feel for many
people on a daily basis
it is so uncomfortable because we we
just in those states We can't imagine
feeling any differently, but we
cognitively know that we Yeah. like this
is just a state. It's just a like a a
thing. What sorts of tools do you offer
people to try and anchor themselves in
those states? Should they just feel them
perhaps just let them pass through or is
it useful perhaps for them to anchor to
some sort of thing outside the
experience so that they they don't get
carried by it like to like get out of
the stress and and I think what I'm
trying to do here is get to a
fundamental question feel your feelings
or be careful of feelings that that put
you out of uh sense of time passage
because those are tend to be dangerous
feelings.
>> It has to start with understanding. We
have to be able to shine the light
everywhere and look at what's true. So,
as I found myself saying many times, you
know, you can say that was then, this is
now, but your lyic system doesn't care,
right? And our lyic system or the
emotion systems in us. So, so we can
say, well, well, the past is in the
past, right? So, I'm going to I'm going
to put it in the past. We can say that,
but we're saying that through logical
mechanisms in us. So if there's logical
mechanisms and limbic or motion
mechanisms, it's a simplification. But
you know, we can look at the brain that
way and say, well, the logic mechanisms
are telling me that and they're
declaring that it's true because the
clock says that it's in the past. But
the limbic the emotion systems have a
very different reality. It doesn't they
don't see it that way. They don't know
that there's a clock or the calendar. So
So it's not that that was then, this is
now. A trigger in the now can make then
now. So, we want to be aware of the
emotions that are going on inside of us
and the strong emotional states that we
can get into, right? Because they're
telling us something. You know, if
something happens just in in going
through life and something that might
even seem small from the outside, but
I'm triggered or I'm cued in a way to be
in a very deep emotional state of of
fear or vulnerability like and I can map
that to like I felt, you know, when X
happened or like I felt uh 20 years ago
when this happened, right? That's
telling me something, right? It's
telling me time is not like a steel rod
going, you know, in one direction.
That's the logic systems in the liyic
systems. It's like a string, right? And
something just made me feel right now
exactly the way it took the string from
now to this thing that happened say 10
years ago and it put the two parts of
the string together. That's real for me.
And it's telling me there is emotion in
something from that time that I have not
worked through, right? Was was I aware
of that? Am I kind of aware of it, but
I'm pushing it down under the surface.
If if I'm having strong emotions where
I'm I'm lost in the past while in the
present, it's a marker of something. And
and very often we get afraid of that. We
turn away from it. We're worried that
that it's telling us we're not healthy
or we're worried we're going to go
crazy. Like these are the things that
people say, right, when this happens.
And so for us to know like, well, that
is not what's happening. This is normal
and and human, right? That this is what
will happen. these these emotion systems
that that pay very strong attention,
right, to negative things to to negative
emotions, you know, fear and loss and
and terror and despair inside of us.
They don't know the clock or the
calendar. So, they're going to bring to
our present, right, things from our past
that that are then markers of saying go
dig there because that is not just in
the past. Emotionally, it is still in
your present.
At this point in time, what what do you
think is the most efficient way to root
out and heal childhood traumas?
>> Bringing compassionate curiosity to
ourselves where we just look at our past
and we look at it without sort of having
a dog in the fight so to speak where
like I don't I don't have to see it a
certain way, right? I don't have to look
at this and sometimes people will say
they have to make it less bad than it
was because they they feel otherwise
they won't be okay if they see all that
was bad in it. You know, others might
feel they have to look at the worst of
it because they they're they're trying
to anchor to things in their in their
life now that they're not happy with and
why that might be, right? So, what it
ends up doing is it brings so much
emotion into it that we can't look in a
way that has equinimity, right? Because
we're living in the emotion. Now, we
can't feel no emotion if we're thinking
about difficult things that have
happened to us. But to be able to have
that observation of self of like what is
going on inside of me? What do I feel
about it? Where does my own mind want to
go? Do I want to minimize it? Do I want
to take it and dial it up so that it'll
explain why I did X or why I didn't do
Y? Right? So, we're trying to observe
our own motivations as we look at our
childhood. And if we can gain more
equinimity that way, then we can come to
understanding this idea that we don't
have to be afraid to go and do that and
to say, okay, I can look at this and I
see this part of my childhood or this
person in my childhood like that that
wasn't good or wasn't okay or maybe it
was even abusive, it was wrong, right?
We can look at that and say, okay, what
what what am I going to do with that
now? It doesn't define who I am. It
doesn't determine any one single thing
about me, right? If I can look at it
with a calmness of mind and I can see
the realness of how it's affected me
right now I I started talking about
malleability kind of where we started
with with malleability of of ourselves
and how we see ourselves and I can start
to make progress but we have to be able
to look at ourselves and very often we
just don't want to do that because we
don't bring compassion you know we bring
fear and criticism right but if we can
just observe ourselves now we can get in
touch with what what did happen in
childhood what do my making of that now,
right? And then now maybe I might want
to put those words outside of me in
writing or in speech or I might want to
talk to a trusted other or I might want
to see a therapist about it. So it it's
taking the strong emotion that can keep
us from understanding, right? Which can
get very complicated, right? If if we
bring fear to our past, we're going to
see it through the lens of fear. If I
know I can look at my past and I don't
have to be afraid, even if it raises
difficult emotion in me, I'm much more
likely to keep a calm presence of mind
and then to learn some things about
myself.
>> Do you think that people look back and
think about good things that happened to
them often enough?
>> No. I mean, this is a clear no. Not
often enough. The answer then is no. We
tend to have a bias in us towards the
negative and we don't stop and think hey
you know I did that really well or you
know that didn't come out the way I
wanted it to but I learned from it or it
didn't come out the way I wanted to but
I really tried and we tend not to do
that and this bias towards the negative
means we we then start making the
stories of ourselves about the negative
or we feel like well if I look at what
I've done right you know what's gone
right in my life or what is going right
then I'll get complacent or like what is
there to be gained from that I'm going
to look at what's not the way I want it
to be and really quite the opposite is
true, right? If we're looking at what's
gone well in our life at our successes
and even things that weren't successes
maybe from the outside, but hey, I I I
grew. I learned something. The school of
hard knocks taught me something, you
know, then then we are bolstering
ourselves. We're empowering ourselves by
doing that. So, no, we should all do a
lot more of that and we wouldn't become
complacent, right? We would become
happier, healthier, more effective in
our lives.
I think when we talk about looking
backward um most of us including myself
just kind of reflexively go to okay my
family growing up or elementary school
middle school high school so on. I have
a colleague from the past Larry Squire
is a kind of a luminary in the the field
of of memory and worked out a lot of
stuff about human hippocampus and um
when I was visiting UC San Diego some
years ago um there were a bunch of
photos on his office wall. I was like,
"Oh, cool." Like, I was looking at some
meetings and things. I figured if
they're on his wall, I'm allowed to look
at them. So, like probing around. Oh,
there's so and so. And he said, 'You
know, having photographs on your wall of
times that were really good is is very
good for your for your adult memory. And
it cues up emotional states for you.
>> And this is where it got interesting
because he studied explicit and implicit
memory.
>> The ones that we're aware of versus the
ones we're not aware of, just to be to
be clear to people. And he said, "Even
if you don't look at them deliberately
each day, when walking past them, if you
have some, you know, implicit
understanding about what those are,
you're surrounding yourself with
positive memories."
>> Yes.
>> And I thought that's pretty cool. And
he's not just somebody saying this,
right? This wasn't some,
>> right,
>> you know, just thing thrown out into the
world. This is arguably one of the
people who knows more about human
memory, structure, function than anybody
in the last 200 years or so.
Oh, that's cool. And I So I said, you
know, so it should be parties, should
be. And he just said, just things and
people and experiences that you liked.
>> Mhm.
>> You just put them up.
>> And I said, ' Do you find yourself
looking at them on your wall? And he
goes, yeah, from time to time, but he's
like, I'm basically in a vessel of
awesome memories and doesn't, you know,
solve all my problems, but but why
wouldn't you? And I I think that's such
a cool idea.
>> Um, and uh these days we spend a lot of
time looking at other people's
experiences. a lot of news coming in and
things like that. I wonder if we're just
doing a lot less of this. And as a last
point, I' i've always um
liked I mean, who knows what's really
going on behind the scenes, but I've
always like you go into somebody's home
and they you walk down a stairwell or up
a stairwell sometimes and they've just
got the wall lit with all these photos,
>> not necessarily big family. Sometimes
yes, sometimes no, and you're like,
"Wow." Like they're like posting all
their experiences and I I think it's
kind of cool. I I don't tend to do it.
Um, but this is a version of thinking
about and exposing oneself, kind of
basking in the past in a positive way. I
think it's kind of kind of cool. Maybe
we should do more of it.
>> Absolutely. I think what he's talking
about and what you're talking about here
is actually being able to have control
over the climate within us, right? The
the structure of self, which is
foundational, has at its foundation our
unconscious mind. And the unconscious
mind sets parameters for us. It's kind
of the climate in which we're living.
And if that climate is being
predisposed, it's programmed, right, to
to have a bias towards the negative
because we're thinking negative thoughts
a lot of the time. We're thinking about
what we did wrong or what we should have
done differently or what's going to go
wrong. Then we're biasing the
unconscious mind to throw to the surface
the negative answer. Should am I going
to be able to do that? No. Right? We're
biased towards the negative. Now, we
don't know why. Why did I say no instead
of yes? Right? that arises from the
climate inside of me which is my
unconscious mind. So he's saying hey you
can sort of pre-program a bias into you
towards the positive and it's not a
false bias. those memories that are up
on his wall are real, right? And whether
he's looking at them or he's just kind
of glancing and he walks by and there's
a registration inside, you know, that he
that he's not even aware of, right? He's
he is priming the unconscious mind to to
see the positive side of things. If he
thinks, well, can I do that? Or yes, I I
I can, right? It it changes things
inside of him and he's then able to
exercise control over his own climate.
And we can do that, too. And often what
we're inadvertently doing is creating a
climate of fear and a a climate that
that is that lacks confidence right
inside of us because we're just looking
at the negative all the time whether
it's about us or the world around us.
And that's a reason why the title of
that book is what's going right because
there's way more going right in all of
us than there is going wrong or we
wouldn't be here. So why not prime
ourselves with that the way that he was
doing with the photographs on the wall?
It absolutely makes sense and it's not a
polyiana concept. It's not saying,
"Well, just look at what's going right."
It's saying, "No, this is consistent
with what's real and true." And it's
good for you, too. It helps you be
effective in the world. It helps your
mental health, helping your mental
health, helps your physical health. It
everything about this aligns with truth
and it sets us up to be in better
control of our lives and to be on the
front foot as we're approaching life.
I'm going to start printing out some
photos and posting them because I don't
do enough of that because of all the
online stuff. I just I have photos, but
I just feel like that just remembered
this Larry Squire thing now as we were
talking about this, but I'm definitely
going to do that.
>> Yeah, I'm going to do more of it, too.
It's a good reminder to do that.
>> Yeah, our physical space is, you know,
to impact us so much and um yeah, there
a lot of lot of good memories and some
hard ones, too. But put up the good
memories. You know the uh it makes
perfect sense to me why one would want
to do that. Earlier we were talking
about the sense of internal control that
we feel the sense of being on one's own
side when we're pushing off against
something.
>> And I have to ask I I'm fascinated by
scripture and by spirituality and
notions of God and devil. I mean if
people are told I'm not telling people
what to believe but we are we are told
many people are told that there are evil
forces out there or perhaps even in us
and there are positive forces out there
and in us. Typically this is presented
as God and devil. Just for sake of
conversation we'll stay with that. Do
you think that it helps people choose
better behaviors by being told and
believing that there's a devil out there
or inside of them to push against? and
therefore to be more on their own side.
And of course, if it's internal, it's
it's a an aspect of their own side that
is better than the bad decision maker in
them. Right? It's a little the way I'm
wording is a little complicated, but I
can't think of a simpler way to get
there.
>> If so, this seems like a brilliant
idea, right? If it's true or not, it's
not up to me to tell people, but one has
to choose for themselves.
If the best way to con to change one's
behavior is to be on one's own side and
the best way to be on one's own side is
to not be controlled by something else
and to actively be resisting that seems
like this god devil thing is pretty
rational. I think maybe from the
psychological perspective yes and no. I
think if we get too over reductionist
you know there's a single force of good
and there's a single force of evil. I
think our major religious tenants, I
think, do see
the world we live in as more complicated
than that. That that that there's more
than just a single force of good and a
single force of evil. Because then I
think what we tend to do is over
identify either I I want to be the good
force but I can't be good enough and
I've done something wrong and and now I
I feel that I feel bad about myself
because I now I feel evil because I
don't feel good enough or I I feel that
the the the evil in the world is clearly
coming for me and it's directed for me.
It's a force directed at me. We can tend
to personify then good and evil and and
either overidentify or feel that we be
beleaguered. Right? So if we
overidentify that we want to be good and
we do something wrong, we feel bad,
right? That that that there can be a
push towards self-persecuting or or
really not understanding ourselves if we
oversimplify. If we think in a broader
way which I I do think is consistent
with with spirituality and I think it's
consistent with the spirituality of
major religious traditions then we see
there are forces for good there pushes
towards good in the universe around us
and that includes within us and there
forces towards what is not good towards
looking the other way for example from
someone's needs right not something
that's pure evil like most of us aren't
going to step on someone when they're
down but could we be tempted to look the
other way right if we see there's a lot
of subtlety and nuance to to how good
and evil plays out in the world around
us and inside of ourselves, then I think
we're viewing ourselves and the world
around us much more consistent with what
religion says. And I think also where
science guides us and is more and more
guiding us as we have more and more
knowledge and understanding. Now we feel
that we're part of something greater
than us. Right? There are forces that
push towards good and forces that push
towards evil. Forces that push towards
construction and and towards destruction
and and we know how we want to be and
where we want to be, you know, in that
spectrum. We want to be generative and
we want to be making the world better
than we left it. And we want to be
bettering ourselves. You know, now we're
being, I think, much more true to the
reality that we experience as opposed to
being so reductionist that we see one
good, one evil, and where are we going
to be, you know, in in that polarized uh
opposites?
>> Is it a reasonable goal to want to be
happy golucky? Can I aspire to that and
also um be a productive person?
>> Unfortunately, no. Right. happy golucky
thing to me it implies that there's not
an awareness that hey there are
difficult things in the world and in
fact there are difficult things in my
own life right I I think happy golucky
implies that we're not aware of how
difficult life can be or or maybe life
has at times been so I don't think that
you can be happy golucky and I think
it's good that you can't be because who
who wants to lose the grounding of the
things that are real in life that might
take away the go-lucky part, right? I
think that you can be happy, right? And
I think that that's better than
happiness that includes some turning
away or some forgetfulness, right? So if
we take away the golucky, which is I
think not desirable or possible, I do
absolutely believe that you can be happy
because what we want and I think there's
studies that show us this and and just
thinking about how humans have written
in literature and philosophy across time
of what do we mean when we say happy. We
do want to find peace, contentment, and
the capacity for delight. You know, we
just want to be able to just be and not
have so much going on inside or coming
at us, right? We all say we just want a
little bit of peace. I, you know, I want
to just sometimes walk around and be
able to look up at the trees around me
and and see that the trees are pretty,
right? That for me that's peace. And and
I think yes, we we can all find our way
to peace. We may not be able to have it
every moment. We don't have to have it
every moment to be happy. So So we need
some peace and we need some contentment
and and contentment means that there's
awareness of our lives, of the things
that have gone well and the things that
haven't. So I can find contentment in my
life. not every moment but I can find it
even holding in my mind awareness of
tragedies that have happened in my life
or things that I haven't done or or um
performed about the way I I would have
ideally wanted to. I can be aware of
those things inside of me but be aware
of the whole arc of my life and feel
good about it. You know there was a a
thought about it embracing our fate
embracing what we've created for
ourselves in early humanist nichi this
was sort of written about of the faith
that we create for ourselves. Can we can
we embrace it and want to live it over
and over again even knowing the things
in it that may be tragic or or not
great? Yes, I think we can find peace.
We can find contentment and we can find
the capacity for delight. We all had it
as children. And if we don't have it now
as adults, there's something we can do
about that. We all need to be able to
see something that just makes us light
up. So I think you and and all the rest
of us it it may be different how we're
going to find it and how much of it and
how much time we live in happiness. But
I think the answer for you and me and
everyone else is we can find happiness
because we can weave peace, contentment
and delight into our lives.
So is it the case that the things that
bring us delight make us for moments
feel um very joyful? What I'm hearing is
that has to be on a backdrop of some
hard things and some strivings that the
goal is not complete peace and ease. I
think complete peace and ease isn't
possible, right? I think for most of us,
you know, life has brought difficulties
for everyone in one way or another and
life does have its its risks and its
dangers and its its vulnerabilities. So,
so to think that we need to not have
that anywhere in our minds in order to
feel good, in order to be happy, I think
tells us that we can't be happy being
human. And and often times it leads us
to say, well, I just I want to not worry
about anything. I don't want to have
anything weighing on me. And, you know,
we start listing a bunch of things that
sound like death, right? When we're
trying to talk about how we're going to
be happy, right? And like that's that's
not what we're going for, right? I I do
want to have times of peace when like
I'm not thinking about bad things that
have happened. I'm just at peace and I'm
looking at the tree or the bird sitting
up in the tree or you know the log
floating down the river which which made
me brought me a lot of peace not that
long ago. So we can have these moments.
It has to also be an awareness of our
lives and we have to at times be able to
to have in our minds the things that are
not the way we want them to be and the
things that are tragic and still feel
good about our lives. I think that's how
we find real happiness and we're not
just looking for escapes because often
the happy golucky part is we're we're
looking for an escape and it's kind of
easy to to to feel that way sometimes if
if a person chooses an escape and it
could be even in a substance where okay
it's felt good for a couple of hours but
at what cost right we're not looking for
escape what we're looking for is is the
ability to apprehend our own lives feel
enough in control of our own lives that
I don't have to be really afraid of the
future I know that there may be scary
things then I'm going to meet them as
best I can. I don't have to be afraid of
the future and I feel good about my
life. I feel enough in control and I
have enough understanding that I can
say, "Okay, I'm I'm I'm I'm good with me
at the moment." And you know, now that
moment has become another moment and I'm
moving forward and I'm doing the best I
can because these this sequence of
moments are the only the only time I'm
alive and I want to be really present
for it.
There used to be a lot of articles
written and you could still find the
stuff online about, you know, uh,
regrets that people had close to the end
of their life and, um, you know, no
[clears throat] one ever said they wish
they spent more time at the office. I
don't know. I know some people that
loved their work and love their work.
>> Did they love it to the, you know, uh,
to the detriment of their family? In
some cases, yes. In a lot of cases, no.
And so, I I don't like those lists. I
think those lists are serve as prompts
for asking questions. Am I overinvested
in one area versus another? But I'm
guessing you've spent some time with
people who are close to the end of their
life or at the end of their life.
>> Yes.
>> Have you ever encountered someone who
like really nailed it? You didn't think
they were just telling you a story about
how they really they felt really good
about how they had spent their mental
life and their energies. Um, we don't
hear about those people very often.
>> Yes.
>> But we just don't. We hear, oh, you
know, no one lies on their deathbed
thinking, you know, we hear all the
stuff you're not supposed to do. Um, are
there any insights or just And if you
can't remember, just just feelings that
arrived for you when talking to these
people that you genuinely believe like
if they didn't hit the bullseye, they
were darn close.
>> Yes. Yes.
>> Yeah. What does that What did that look
like or feel like? And what did they
say?
It makes me think actually of of a a
real example in my own life where a
family member much older than me, he
would probably be 120 or so if he was
were still alive. So he was very very
old at the time who had really made
something of himself. He didn't have
much in the way of education and and
he'd been a successful member of the
community. He'd given back to the
community. He had no education. He
started a bank and you know the bank
became international and he and he was
so good and so helpful to the place he
had come from and he'd had real
tragedies in his life. He'd lost a child
and when he learned that I was going to
medical school a long long time ago, he
asked to see me and he was in his he
would have been in his early 90s at the
time and he told me that he was happy
with his life and that he realized that
he could die at any moment and he
understood and he accepted that that he
tried to do the best that he could and
he'd made something of himself and that
there were was sadness in his life and
and and things he certainly wished would
have been different, but that he was
happy with his life and he was okay with
dying and and he wanted me to know that
he thought that was a good way to feel
right and and that it was tempting to to
want to to be so much and put so much
pressure on yourself that you that you
could achieve a lot and not be able to
feel good about it. And it's not it's
not something I forgotten. I mean, I do
think of that with with Fair Frequency
and and it made me think of that here. I
thought that's you know that's that's a
person who's lived a good life and and
now I wasn't thinking it at the time but
he was clearly describing being able to
have peace and to have contentment to to
feel good about his life even knowing
the things that were not great and then
the capacity for delight there were
still things he was very very excited
about and his face would still light up
and and I think that was probably
earlier role modeling for me of oh like
that that's I'd like to feel that way
you know I'd like to be in my 90s and be
able to say that and it's really stuck
with me.
>> That's awesome. I uh I think we need to
think a lot more about what's going
right, what went right.
>> We were talking about that today.
>> Yes.
>> What went right.
>> Yes. What's gone right in my life? What
I've made go right in my life. Right.
What hasn't gone right and I showed up
anyway. Right. That's part of what's
going right.
>> Yeah. we so easily default to the losses
>> or to which can also be beautiful in
some sense sometimes sometimes but we we
so easily go to what's wrong what's
wrong what's wrong but I'm also hearing
that happy golucky and just thinking
about what's going right that's not the
answer either it's just not there has to
be that contrast this is what I'm
hearing you saying today
>> yes yes we have to be living an examined
life in order to live intentionally so
so yes we do have to look at ourselves
But the good news is that's okay. You
know, most of us don't want to be
dragged kicking and screaming to looking
at ourselves. But that's just because
we're afraid. And if we know, I'm not
going to find anything there that's
going to really shock me or probably not
going to find anything I'm not already
well aware of. Even if I've, you know,
even if I'm trying to hide it from
myself and then there's a process I can
go through go through. If I look at
myself, I can use the knowledge to make
things better, you know, then that's the
simple goodness of it's okay to look at
ourselves. We have to, but we also get
to, right? And and that's how we're
going to live good lives. It's how we
live the best life we can get and and
maybe we get to that point where we can
look back and feel good about the
choices that we've made and maybe feel
okay about choices we've made even if
they haven't led the places where we've
wanted them to be that we can still
embrace ourselves and the lives we've
led.
>> If you don't mind, I just want to ask a
couple of questions that are a little
bit um different than the ones we've
been exploring. Was writing the book
informative for you about the mind,
about people in a way that all the
clinical work and and certainly the
podcast you've done, was it was it
different? Did it did it teach you
anything? And if you if so, are you
willing to share one or two of those
things?
>> Sure. Sure.
>> I think writing about what we know helps
us know it better, right? Because
because part of knowing something is
also being aware that we don't know
everything about it. So then when we
organize our thoughts and we say I'm
doing the best I can to put this down so
other people can understand it. We just
have to learn from that process. So so
yeah I do I do feel that I learned as
part of writing it and incorporating
clinical examples and just incorporating
events from life. Uh it helped me I
think have a fuller view of oh I do do
think that this says a lot about how
we're being humans in the world and and
you know how our mind is structured that
there is this parallel to the body and
you know and we can bring it to the four
and I felt very hopeful and optimistic
that um that it kind of holds together
and you know and it leads somewhere. So
yeah I think I got I got a lot out of
organizing my thoughts better in writing
the book. Last question. Um, which is
completely outside the realm of what
we've been talking about. Has Lex
Freiedman texted you back? Because he
hasn't texted me back in a while.
>> I have not heard from Lex Freriedman.
Yeah. Despite multiple efforts, there
has been no response.
>> Yeah, there there are rumors that he's
in Dagistan. There are rumors that he's
in Austin and he um and Lex, we we love
you and you don't have to text us back,
but um just maybe just throw up a sign
that you're okay
>> or we're gonna send a search party to
Dagasan,
>> right? And if you're not there, then
we'll really be in trouble.
>> Dr. Paul Ki, this was awesome. Um, I I
have to say, and I'm not going to repeat
everything, I promise. But I have to say
what I love so much about talking with
you is that
you can like explore these caverns of
things and then these gems just pop out
like the this idea that we can be on our
own side by seeing what we
don't want to be controlled by.
>> I think I know that's really going to
resonate with people because behavioral
change is like the hardest thing
>> and behavioral change when people
realize they're not changing like it's
like a double whammy,
>> right? So that alone is is enormous and
>> right
>> and the focus on what's right I'm not
trying to just repeatedly uh you know
state the title of the book I mean
what's going right is is just so vital I
think especially in this time when you
>> turn on the news and it's just like all
these things that are challenging to the
world which certainly many of them need
attention but focusing on what's going
right what has gone right um is just
it's so it's so essential right now and
it's it really what I've learned from
you today that it's really the lifeblood
of what it is to be a joyous human being
with the caveat that we also have to
address the challenges
>> and if they're there the traumas and and
that there's really no other way that
that's what I'm taking from this.
>> Yes. And that we can do that and and
instead of thinking maybe that we can do
that or we have to do that we get to do
that that there should be an excitement
that we bring an enthusiasm and a
hopefulness that we bring to that
process.
Well, thank you for being here today.
Thank you for writing the book. Um, it's
going to serve so many people and yeah,
thank you for taking your training and
your your clinical experience and
putting it out into the world. You know,
you don't have any obligation to do that
and most everything that you know and
that transpires in those sessions,
everything would not serve the larger
world to the extent that it does uh were
you not willing to, you know, get out
here and there and um share with people.
So, thank you. You're clearly uh one of
the leading public educators on the mind
and the self and and navigating this
this life landscape. So, thank you so
much for coming here today and come back
again, please.
>> You're very welcome. Thank you for
giving me the opportunity to do so.
>> It's my pleasure. Thank you for joining
me for today's discussion with Dr. Paul
Ki. To learn more about his work and to
find links to his new book, What's Going
Right? Please see the links in the show
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