the Alagash Lake. We're up there for the
experience, for the pure pleasure of
canoeing and being out in the
wilderness.
>> What happens when you get back to camp?
>> Well, we looked on the other side of the
lake and here's this sphere of light and
it's moving like a balloon moving very,
very slowly. What the hell is that over
there?
When I saw the light, I noticed it had a
a weird quality to it.
>> How so?
>> So, I looked at it through binoculars
and then as soon as I got him in focus,
the light went
like that.
>> Wa!
>> Like a lens closing in on itself. And
then he was right behind us and I was
like, "Oh, Christ. We are not going to
make it back.
>> Keep going. Don't look back."
And then I'm struggling to get up and I
see this face bending down to look into
my eyes and they began a clinical
examination of me. So you were laying
horizontally. What did the table feel
like? Very sterile, an emergency room
setting in a way.
What did the beings look like?
A bulbous head with large eyes, no nose
like us, slit area in the chin.
>> Are you freaking out?
>> Freaking out? I'm beyond freaking
freaked out.
>> Do you know if you have Rh negative
blood?
>> I do.
>> There you go.
>> And then they came for me. I was
terrified. He kind of like reached up in
the air with his long thin articulated
arms and he had this thing in his hand
that looked like a flattened hockey puck
and they put one on on the outside of
each one of my shins and then I couldn't
move my legs.
>> Oh my god.
>> On his legs for several years, hair
didn't grow there. It was like bald
patch on its legs.
>> Oh, really? And
>> yeah, both shins
>> and his identical twin brother Jack had
tumors growing in the exact spots.
Didn't even get a damn t-shirt.
>> I mean,
>> no souvenirs.
>> Ignition sequence.
>> How is this possible?
>> Nothing too unusual about that.
>> Their existence cannot longer be denied.
Jim Winer, Charlie Folultz, thank you
both so much for being here. I have uh
followed your story for many years and
so it's an honor to be in person uh with
you both. You guys experienced something
absolutely remarkable and kind of
mind-blowing in 1976 in Alagash in
Maine.
>> Yeah. On the Alagash water system. Yeah.
And it was you two and it was
>> his identical twin brother.
>> Identical twin brother Jack
>> and another guy
>> and another guy another friend and okay
so let's set the scene. What is going on
in your lives at the time? So you're in
your mid20s.
>> Well um I was a college student at the
time going to college on the GI bill.
Um, and my goal at that time was to
become a school teacher to teach art to
children. So, I was a dual major. I was
print making and photography.
So, I figured during the 3 months where
I wasn't teaching, I could do artwork to
supplement my income.
Well, uh, that was where I was with my
education.
Uh
Jack had and Jim had just graduated from
Mass College of Art. I think that year
or the year before
>> Jack did I never I I didn't go to I
wasn't at Mass Art at that time. At that
time I was at the uh program in
artisenry which was a a crafts program
being run by Boston University and
Benjamin Franklin Institute.
>> And so you guys are both artists. What
are you
>> all All of us were artists. All four of
us.
>> All four. And what what are you like
personalitywise? Are you guys sort of
irreverent and rowdy or are you sort of
humble and quiet?
>> We're average mid20s,
you know,
>> males, you know.
>> Uh we were enjoying the experience of
the wilderness. Uh we had uh started
planning the trip the previous year uh
acquiring gear just slowly accumulating
all the gear that we would need plus the
meals ready to eat uh type of pack
preackaged food that we brought along
with us as well. And you guys were
pretty good outdoorsmen, right? You had
some skills when it came to kind of
surviving out outdoors on your own.
Yeah, kind of. I mean,
>> grew up fishing out in the country, you
know, doing fishing, camping, that sort
of thing.
>> Where did you live at the time? Was it
in Maine or in Massachusetts?
>> No, we were living in Boston.
>> Yeah, I was going to college. I was
living in Brooklyn, actually, at that
time.
>> And the twins were my next door
neighbors, literally. Yeah.
>> Just on on the other side of the
driveway was their house.
>> So, you guys have known each other for a
very long time. Over 50. Yeah. over a
half century.
>> Yeah. I mean at that time I was studying
uh ceramics at the program in artisanry.
I was working with two amazing um
potters. One's name was Bill Saxs who
was a potter in western Massachusetts
out in West Hadley. The other one was a
guy named uh Rich was Rich's Richard
Hirsch
>> who was a
uh master rac.
>> And are you guys best friends? Oh, yeah.
>> What? Him and me?
>> Yeah. I don't know this guy.
>> Sounds like a one-way situation.
>> Yeah.
>> Evil brother.
>> Yeah. Sorry, Jim. You got the short end
of of the stick here.
>> It's okay. I'm used to it.
>> So, you guys are clearly there's a lot
of prep work that goes into this trip.
You guys are kind of, you know, figuring
out the food situation. Yeah.
>> What equipment we needed, what clothing,
>> being prepared for the weather because
it was at the end of the summer. And as
you may or may not know about New
England weather, Mark Twain said, "If
you don't like the weather, wait a few
minutes. It'll change."
And the weather up there at that time
was abnormally hot and dry. It was one
of the
>> hottest August at the end of the year
that they had had.
>> So we had gear uh for a the next level
degree of coldness was the primary gear
that we had. Uh we as I said had climbed
Mount Kataden
uh two days prior to beginning our canoe
trip.
And uh when we were climbing up the
mountain, I had to take my blue jeans. I
had to take a knife and make them into
shorts because we were so soaked with
sweat uh from climbing the mountain that
our clothing or mine was like grabbing
me and restricting my movements.
>> Hiking in jeans never a good idea.
>> Well, that's true. You can make them
shorts though.
>> Yeah, there you go. Yeah, you got
innovative. So I think maybe one of the
most interesting parts of this whole
experience that is kind of inextricably
linked with it, you can't kind of
separate it, is just the landscape of
Alaggash itself. Oh, absolutely. It's
beautiful up there. Describe it. Well,
originally the Alaggash water system,
which is now National Park System, was
originally part of the logging industry
prior to logging trucks going out into
the forest. You sent teams out in the
forest. They would cut the trees, put
them on the lake, float them, and that
was they were moved down the Alagash
River all the way to like Fort Kent and
Alagash uh the village of Alagash. And
then that was where they would get out
on the St. Lawrence, is it there? Or St.
Francis? St. Francis. St. Francis.
>> Yeah. that separates Canada from the US
and uh they would run the logs down
there. Uh we ran in on our very last day
of our canoe trip, we met an old logger.
Uh his name was Harry Smith. Really
interesting character. Uh told us a lot
about the early logging days and log
jams and what you had to do to unjam
them. And that was incredibly dangerous
cuz you had to get out there and pry the
logs loose until the water could grab
them and get everything moving again.
So, uh, the Allaggash system
uh, still has part of an old railroad
that they would go in to the forest,
load up with limb lumber or logs and and
take them out that way as well. And now
uh it is all just a
recreational
uh environment.
>> Yeah, it looks very primitive. I mean,
you don't at least when we the places we
were at, you didn't see cuts, you know,
areas that were clearcut or anything
like that. There's no houses.
>> It's all just wilderness. I mean,
>> gray herand are flying over all the
time. And you see moose, deer.
>> Yeah. uh lose
>> bears, all kinds of
>> all kinds of stuff. You have to um make
sure you keep your food stuffs off the
ground. You have to tie them up in a
tree somewhere off a branch so the bears
don't get at them. The um rangers come
every day to collect your trash so that
doesn't lay around. The other thing you
have to do when um before you even go
there is you have to they only have
designated campsites and so you have to
tell the rangers when
>> what your itinerary is
>> what your itinerary is like so in case
you go missing they have an idea of
which campsites to look
>> start looking for you.
>> So um and they come and check you minute
you land on the lakes. When we flew in,
we flew in on a a bush plane. Um, within
minutes, um, two rangers came and they
come and they check your gear. They go
through your gear to make sure you're
not carrying any kind of contraband
>> because the Alagash runs into Canada.
>> Mhm.
>> And they check to make sure that you
have enough
>> food.
>> Food and camping things to survive up in
the wilderness because we were there for
what, two weeks?
>> Yeah. 17 days. days.
>> So, you know, they're they're pretty
strict about who they let stay on the
waterway and pass through the waterway.
>> And if you're not out at the end of like
the 17 or 18 days, then then they start
trying to find you.
>> Had either of you experienced anything
anomalous in your life? Had you
>> Oh, yeah.
>> You had?
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Describe.
>> Jack and I when we were kids growing, we
grew up in the Allentown area of
Pennsylvania. Mhm.
>> We used to have these things happen at
night in our house where we'd be
sleeping in bed. We both shared the same
room and we'd wake up in the night and
there'd be something pulling the covers
off our beds.
>> Whoa.
>> Um or we'd see
like figures moving around in the room.
They um we saw uh
>> balls of light
>> balls of light floating through the
house on occasion. Did you ever
communicate with any?
>> Oh, yeah. We did with our parents and
they used to say, "Oh, you're having
nightmares." Shut up.
>> Did you communicate with any of the
beings or the
>> No. No. We went straight to the bottom
of the bed
>> scared. Scared shitless.
>> And your parents thought it was a ghost,
didn't you? Harry.
>> Yeah. We used to call him Harry the
ghost.
>> They used to call our names sometimes.
Like I'd be in in the room doing
something and I'd hear this Jim. A real
deep voice of Jim
Jim. And I thought it was I always
thought it was my father.
>> Was there any history either to the
house you were in or to your family?
>> No. My father built the house himself.
>> Anything around your family experiencing
paranormal stuff prior to No.
>> This?
>> But my parents um saw a bean in their
bedroom one night. Okay. hooded bean in
their bedroom, which we never I never
knew until Ray Fowler interviewed her.
>> Whoa.
>> And then she reported it to Ray and
>> so she wasn't open about it with you.
She was open about it to Ray.
>> She was open about it to Ray.
>> We'll get you, but he's a
>> never mentioned it to us.
>> Wild.
>> So, um you know, we used to have like to
be like knocking on the walls at night
when we try to sleep.
And if you go into our basement, um we
had a my father had a a little pool
table in the basement. So family
members, he had a large family, brothers
and sisters. They would come to the
house every other weekend or so
>> back in those days. Families like that's
just what they did.
>> Super random question, but do you know
if you have Rh- negative blood?
>> I do.
>> There you go.
>> Yeah, my dad negative.
>> And you did too? And your dad? Not you.
Your dad did, but you did. You do.
>> Jack and I both have Rh negative.
>> That's fascinating because that's a
commonality among experiencers. This
missing protein that seems to for
whatever reason
>> Well, when we were when we were like six
years old,
>> um we both broke our arms like within a
day of one another. Like when you have
identical twins, if something happens to
one twin, you you know, wait a few
hours, it'll happen to the other one.
>> It's like some entanglement. It's like
definitely entanglement there. Anyway,
we had both broken our wrists
>> and uh
>> opposite arms too.
>> Opposite arms.
>> Same fracture location.
>> In those days,
>> it's literally entanglement.
>> Yeah. In those days, doctors came to
your home.
>> We had a family doctor that, you know,
would come to your home if you called
them. And so I was in just unbelievable
pain. I was in unbearable pain. So they
called the doctor and the doctor came to
the house and he said, "Well, I'm just
going to knock him out because if you
can't handle the pain, I mean, I was
flipping out." So he gave me a shot of
something to knock me out and a minute
later, Jack goes out cold.
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Jack goes out cold.
Whoa. And
>> I'm sitting there and the doctor, they
actually wrote it up. He wrote up a
report and they wrote it up in one of
the local newspapers.
And shortly after that, these two guys
showed up at our house and they wanted
to talk to my father and mother. And
they claimed that they were from some
>> institute
>> institute somewhere that was studying
twins and they wanted to take Jack and I
away to study us.
>> What institute?
>> I don't know which
>> it called the the roundt institute.
>> I don't I don't remember the name of it.
>> Do you remember where it was?
>> It may have been um
Duke.
>> Duke the Ryan Institute.
>> It may have been the Ryan, but I'm not
Don't quote me. But anyway, they What
year was this? This was Oh,
>> so your sevens late late 50s.
>> Yeah. Well, the Ryan Institute ended in
1950. Anyway, my father could have been
>> freaked out.
>> Yeah.
>> And literally threw them both out of the
house and said, "If you ever come here
again or if I ever see you around my
kids again, I will." Well, it's
fascinating because that time in history
was when children started to be tested
in programs that were kind of adjacent
to MK Ultra, but also Yeah. You know,
they were interested in UFO stuff, too.
There was a guy named Andre Puharic. I
don't know if you're familiar with him,
but he was an early kind of architect of
MK Ultra. He was a Northwestern
uh scientist and and uh uh I think he
was a medical student there. Uh but just
got very interested in consciousness.
and he had a place in Austining in
upstate New York and he recruited what
he called the space kids and it was like
a camp for high sai you know high
psychic ability children and they would
often you know channel these beings they
would call the nine these sort of you
know alien entities.
>> The first set of what really were the
space kids were younger. Some of them
were 7 years old up to 12 or in and in
in teens.
>> Interesting. So I wonder if you were,
you know, being
>> maybe they were tracking us. Was that
Did that eventually evolve into Monttok?
>> So Monttok I believe was Yeah, I think
it would have been around the same time.
I think it would have been Yeah. 50s60s.
I believe that there was like this
machinery they found at Montalk and
blanking on the name of the author of
the book, but Preston something
>> could be. I had I had the book at one
time and I've given it away already.
>> Yeah. But no, but that's sort of so I
mean that uh whole the mont experiments
which we now think are probably real
inspired uh you know stranger things and
stranger things is you know hit Netflix
show which is around the DOE and
national labs basically recruiting
children and doing psychic tests with
them and 11 this character in Stranger
Things which is like the biggest show in
the world right now is based on this so
>> I do think that
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's fascinating.
Yeah.
>> So maybe they were trying to
>> they may have had they may have had
something to do with it, but my father
didn't like these two people at all.
>> Yeah. I don't blame him.
>> So
>> yeah.
>> So that happened when we were kids. And
then in 1973,
in the spring of 1973, I was attending
Mansfield State College in upstate
Pennsylvania. It's almost on the border
of Pennsylvania and New York State,
>> teachers college. and I was
I was an undergraduate there and um
they were involved in this project with
beavers.
>> Mhm.
>> Because um they were having problems
with every time a big storm would come
through, they'd have a lot of flooding.
There was a river up there. I forget the
name of it, but it would flood and ruin
everything. And so they decided what
they were going to do was parachute
beavers into the countryside all around
it. It's it's really up in an area
Pennsylvania that's really wild. In
fact, they they filmed um
>> the deer deer hunter movie. Was that the
name of it? Deer Hunter. Yeah, that's
where they filmed it. It's like you can
you can walk for 75 miles in any
direction up there and you don't see a
single house. It's really, you know,
primitive.
>> Interesting. Anyway, um so
I was I was um got in they got me and
two other friends of mine up there
involved with this where they drop they
parachute in these beavers.
>> They parachuted in beavers.
>> Yeah, they parachuted in beavers to
build beaver dams to control the water
table.
>> Wow.
>> Which I thought was a great idea
>> because how else do you get into the
water table when it's there's nothing
there except trees. and forest. And so
what we had to do, myself and my two
friends, was and they had other students
doing this, was we had to go out into
like all these old logging roads and
whatever and and find beavers and, you
know, Marco, you know, put them in a
database. So I was out one day with
these two friends of mine and we're
driving around. I had a little VW bug.
We're driving around looking for
beavers. We never I don't think we even
found any. But we were coming back and
it had just become nighttime and we were
driving through a a cow some pasture. It
was this huge pasture with two ruts for
track tractor ruts in it. And we were
driving and it was dark. So it was but
up there in that part of Pennsylvania
it's um uh what do they call the night
sky places
where like you can go out and look at
>> clear skies
>> clear skies or you know it's like where
>> virgin black
>> virgin black there's no light pollution
and uh so we were driving across we were
lost and we were driving across this
pasture this huge pasture and on the end
of the pasture there was a tree line and
so we were going towards this tree line
and then I noticed I looked up above the
trees and I noticed there was this group
of stars that looked like the little
dipper except they were moving and they
were moving in a really strange way. It
was like instead of like just going in a
constant
>> plane
>> pace or plane, they were tumbling like a
slinky. They would this whole they were
maintaining the the dipper shape. There
was probably six or eight of these
lights. They look like, you know, bright
bright stars,
but they were tumbling end over end and
it was coming like right down towards
where we were. And then um we were like
I was like what the heck is that? So I
stopped the car. I said we got to get
out and look at this thing. So the three
of us got out of the car and we're we're
watching this thing and it's just
walking out of the sky like right for
us. And then all of a sudden out of
nowhere this car comes
opposite us on this tractor
rut. So we're like, "Oh Jesus." So the
car gets around us and then when when
the at one point it was like on a hill
and when the car lights went up it it
hit these lights up in the sky and then
they stopped
coming down towards us and they started
going parallel to us. And while they
were they kept maintaining this tumbling
thing except they then they were
changing shape like they were it was
like they would go in at one point they
were like a Vshape
>> and then another point it was more like
an amoeba type shape but they it just
kept tumbling end over end the whole
time. So I said
>> let's signal it because it was only you
know a thousand maybe 2,000. It wasn't
that far up in the sky. And so I I had a
flashlight in my glove compartment and I
could took the flashlight out and I
blinked the flashlight and all of a
sudden one of these star-like lights
like went off like a a an big amber
flash bulb and this like
it turned into like a tube of light
almost like a blob of toothpaste kind of
light came out of it
>> and then it it did a couple more tumbles
and then it just
there's The first time I've ever seen
anything like this. It was going like
this tumbling and then all of a sudden
it was it just reversed. It didn't stop
and wait, you know, one blink of an eye.
It just stopped and then rever it just
reversed itself and then it walked back
up into the sky and disappeared.
That was in 1973.
>> Fascinating. Yeah.
>> Wow. So that was a year before or that
was three years before this alagash
event. So you had had like this whole
kind of backdrop of anomalous
experiences multiple.
>> Yeah. Except I we never we never
subscribed them to
>> UFOs.
>> UFOs. I mean you grew up in you know I
was grew up in farm country in
Pennsylvania.
>> It was just like ghosts or
>> Yeah. Ghosts or you know
>> lights in the sky.
>> Lights in the sky. You know it could
have been you know helicopters for all
we knew. you know, I mean, I didn't know
what it was. And so
>> we nobody talked about UFOs and those,
you know, I grew up in a family that was
um
>> conservative,
>> very conservative.
>> So like we didn't talk about ghosts
unless something weird happened and then
my phone, oh yeah, that's that's don't
worry about it's only Harry the ghost.
Yeah. So, he would casually, he would
dismiss it, but he would casually, he
had a name for this ghost because that's
how much it would appear.
>> We called him Harry.
>> Interesting.
>> Yeah.
>> Okay. So, you guys, let's cut back to
76. You guys are at Alagash. You this,
you know, sort of beautiful landscape.
Sounds like they have a rigorous
protocol for kind of onboarding you, you
know, to to camping out there. You get
there.
>> Uh, at what point do you start canoeing?
Well, right after we climbed Kataden,
which was the first uh 3 days we were in
northern Maine, went down to Milanet
uh and got some supplies.
Uh then climbed Kataden, broke camp the
next morning, took the supplies we had
purchased in Milaninoat and we drove
north and east of Baxter State Park to a
outfitter at Shin Pond.
And at Shin Pond, uh a friend of ours,
in fact, the guy that came down this
last Saturday,
uh we were using one of his canoes,
uh friend of ours named Charlie had led
us uh a Groman uh aluminum canoe for our
trip and had taken it to Shen Pond. And
this guy had had it strapped to the
pontoon of the airplane.
So he would take two passengers and the
gear for those two guys and a canoe.
That's all he could put in that little
plane besides him. I had a Volkswagen
Beetle had a far more complex instrument
panel than this airplane had.
>> Yes,
>> it was I mean it was as simple as simple
could be. You got a choke, you got an
oil pressure gauge and you got a gas
gauge and that was it.
>> We had two canoes. the one that our
friend loaned us and then we brought
another
>> rented one. Yeah.
>> Describe your first anomalous sighting
on the canoe.
>> Well, the first sighting we saw of it
was on our second day on the lake
system. We were on Chamberlain Lake and
that was a lake that runs north south
and we were going north and we were
trying to get up to the Alagash River uh
or the Alagash stream which flows in
from Alagash Lake and that is totally
primitive up there uh area. Uh the only
way you can get up there is by poleing
up the river and we didn't know how to
pull. Uh but we attempted paddling and
paddling but didn't do us any good.
Yeah. However, to get back to the first
sighting,
uh we had passed two teenagers
on our way north and they were fooling
around on a little island and we got up
to this site called uh Mud Pond
and uh we didn't want to camp with other
people. There were people across from us
in a sheltered area from the wind and we
had decided to take this one spot. But
when we got up there, the wind was like
just coming down on us like crazy. And
we're like, we don't want to be dealing
with this all night long trying to put
our lean to shelter together cuz all we
had was a a big u uh tarp that we used
as a tent, you know, cuz you can use
tarps for multiple purposes. And we were
using it for shelter and as well as
keeping our gear weatherproofed. Well,
at any rate, uh the weather forced us
across the lake where this other group
of campers were, and they had asked,
"Had we seen these two kids we'd seen
earlier?" And we told them where we had
seen them. And so, they're getting
worried because, you know, two
teenagers, a member of their group, and
they
>> well, and it had gotten dark by this
time. So, out there, it's so black at
night. You
>> you can't really see your You can't see
your hand this far in front of your
face.
>> So, we were out with them as well,
looking with our binoculars across the
surface of the water, seeing if we could
find them. And they ended up taking the
campsite that we had abandoned.
Uh, and a member of this other group
said, "What the hell is that over
there?" And we looked on the other side
of the lake and here's this sphere of
light and it's moving like a balloon
moving very very slowly but it's like
moving into this wind. So I'm trying to
figure out
>> the treetops.
>> Yeah. I was trying to figure out like
what the hell is that? Uh but then we
spotted these kids and so Okay. And we
looked back at this light and it wasn't
there. When I looked at it through
binoculars because it had when I saw the
light, I noticed it had a a weird
quality to it.
>> How so?
>> I It just didn't look right to me. It
didn't It wasn't like a pure white. It
was more like a yellowish
>> white. And it it there's just something
about it that didn't seem right to me.
So, I looked at it through binoculars
and and then as soon as I got them in
focus, the light went
like that, like a like a a lens closing
in on itself and then it just vanished.
>> And I thought, well, that's that's kind
of weird. But
>> I didn't think anything more about it
because we were we had to set up camp.
So, you know, it was just this weird
light. But I had never seen a light do
that before.
>> Like
>> just implode in on itself.
>> Wait 48 hours.
>> You'll see it again.
>> And what was odd, which we we didn't
know at the time, but it was like the
the direction that it was in line to us
was over Eagle Lake,
>> the area that we were camping at two
days later. So it was almost like it
knew where you were going. I was like
patrolling that area or something.
>> Patrolling the area. That's interesting.
That reminds me of when you hear
Commander David Fraver from his 2004
Nimmits incident and he says, you know,
we were, you know, dispatched to go
check out this Tic Tac object and then
the Tic Tac was already at the rende vue
point that he was going to next. It was
like they sort of know your intent or
something trajectory
>> or it had been there for a while because
there was a there was a witness logger
who had witnessed the this same craft up
in that same area that they were
logging.
>> Fascinating. Okay. So, you guys kind of,
you know, note that this is anomalous,
but you don't you try to kind of, you
know, keep moving forward.
>> Yeah. Well, I mean, we're not there to
see a a light disappear in the night
sky. I mean,
>> we're up there for the environment, for
the experience, for the just pure
pleasure of canoeing and being out in
the wilderness.
>> What happens when you get back to camp?
>> Well, well, that night, the first night
we saw it, nothing. I mean, we just
turned in, got up the next morning, and
>> continued our canoe trip. That was when
we tried to get up to Alagash Lake. Do
you guys even talk about the first
sighting?
>> No, not really at all. No.
>> Okay. No.
>> I mean, it was uh was like I got bit by
a mosquito type of a thing.
>> So, you probably said something when you
were looking through your binoculars,
right?
>> I said, "Well, this is this this is a
strange light." And when it kind of
winked out, I thought, "Well, that's
kind of weird." But, I mean, maybe maybe
it was a helicopter or maybe it was a
balloon or something and that's just the
way it went,
>> right? Okay. So then
the next day after that, we had canoeed
up, tried to get to Allagash Lake, but
found it impossible.
We had spent like 8 hours trying to go
upstream
until we got to a point where we said,
"Well, we're not even at halfway mark."
We turned around and it took us uh about
15 minutes to go back down to where we
started. So, we set up camp uh right
there on the river that night in this
camp location. The following morning is
when we can down to the Eagle Lake
portage area. So, it was a 3/4 of a mile
portage that we had to carry our canoes
and all of our gear. So, how we rigged
it was that we lashed two poles
uh that ran perpendicular to the canoe
and uh then the four of us would just
pick up the ends
uh and with the canoe in between us and
then walk the canoe over to the other
lake. Went back and retrieved a second
canoe and then got out on the water and
we were going to camp at Pillsbury
Island. That was our goal.
>> It's kind of in the middle of Eagle Lake
towards the southern end of it.
>> But there was a canoe about I don't know
a quarter of a mile in front of us and
that is where he be belineed straight
to. So we're like
>> well we don't want to camp with other
people anymore. So we went to our
secondary which was Smith Brook
campsite. We set up our camp for the
night and then we decided, hey, let's
try and catch some fresh fish so we can
supplement, have a fish meal or
something.
So, we built a fire because it was
getting dark. So, we built a fire that
we knew would burn for close to three
hours
and went out on the lake and we had to
navigate through standing trees, logs in
the water. And it took us maybe about
2530 minutes to work our way through all
this obstruction to get to the site that
we were fishing at, which was maybe
about 500 yd from our campsite.
>> Yeah. We were all in one canoe. Charlie
was at one end of the canoe, the other
guy was at the other end. Jack and I
were in the middle.
>> And all we had was paddles and
>> fishing poles.
>> Fishing poles. And that was it,
>> you know, and a flashlight. flashlight.
>> Mhm.
>> So, I'm setting up in the front of the
canoe and you know, we're having no luck
at all fishing when the other guy goes,
"What the f is that?"
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What the f is that? So we all sort of
like turn and look toward the back of
the canoe and I see this aspurn tablets
sized white
circle and I'm thinking that is the
freaking moon you But then I
noticed that it was moving
>> and it was moving faster than the moon
moves. It's moving at about like this
speed right here
>> and it's hundreds hundreds of yards away
from us. And so we just sat there
bewildered looking at this thing and
then it kind of like makes a left turn
and then it starts coming straight
toward us.
>> Totally silent.
>> Yeah. And so we're watching it and
watching it. And then we notice as it
gets closer, the tops of the trees are
illuminated. And this thing's only about
15 ft above the tops of the trees, just
coming straight toward us. And when it
was about
less than 100 yards away from us,
directly across, I thought, I wonder
what the hell it'll do if I flash an SOS
at it. So, I had one of those
square battery flashlights with the
handle and the push button. I put my
hand over the lens, turned the light on,
and then I three short, three long,
three short, and then this thing
stopped. I mean, it just
>> no sound whatsoever. Just stopped
moving. And all of a sudden, this big
cone of light, blue light, like a neon
blue, but it looked like a a giant glass
straw, you know, it looked like it was
open, a void in the center of it or
something. And this light starts from
the bottom of the sphere coming out
across a lake toward the canoe. And that
was when I realized the sphere was
coming with it at the same time.
>> This thing was big. It was as big as a
two-story house.
>> Wow.
>> Oh yeah. I mean, it was like huge.
>> Wow. And how far away? It was like a
under 100 yards from me
>> when I flashed the flashlight, but when
I dropped the flashlight, it was about
75 yards from us and closing.
>> Wow. And so do you think it reacted to
this uh SOS flashlight immediately?
>> And it came closer.
>> Yeah. And all I could hear behind me
were Jack and Jim screaming, "Paddle,
Charlie, paddle."
And as I said, if I could have uh ran
across the water like a Jesus Christ
lizard, I would have been doing that.
What um emotions are going through you
guys at this point?
>> Well, I was terrified.
>> Self survival.
>> Self- survival. It was like, weird. I I
do not want to deal with this out here.
>> Yeah. I don't know what this is, but I I
know as much as I really want to know at
the moment. cuz it was, you know, it was
big. It was huge. And you're like, uh,
uhoh, that's not a helicopter. Cuz it
was absolutely silent.
>> Yeah. Wasn't disturbing the trees
background. I mean, you can hear a
quarter of a mile away.
>> And this thing didn't make any noise at
all. And it it had this weird kind of
life to it, like it was roing. This
>> the surface of the
>> surface of this thing was like roing.
And it was alive.
>> It was like it was a some sort of plasma
plasma pressure. Exactly. Yeah.
Something going on inside.
>> Yep.
>> Well, you know what it um one of the
things that impressed me the most that I
recall about it
>> was you've seen halos around the moon,
right?
>> Sure.
>> This thing had a halo around it as well.
M
>> as it approached us, you could see the
definition of this halo
>> and the the sphere itself
>> was kind of insane
>> was, you know, in constant motion.
>> Yeah. And I remembered I remembered um
you know, you're like paddle. Well, the
other guy with us, he w he was just like
catatonic. He just sat in the
>> with the paddle across across his legs
and just stared out and we're like
>> paddle paddle paddle. and he it's
>> like sort of help us a little here.
>> So Charlie,
>> what's his name by the way? This other
guy who's cater.
>> Chuck.
>> Yeah.
>> And um
>> it's the reason I go by Charlie. So
there was no confusion.
>> And so we're like, "Chuck, paddle." And
he just did sat there staring out into
nothing. And so
>> it seemed like only a few moments from
the time we started paddling till the
time that Jack and Jim and I were
standing on the beach. We weren't in the
canoe. were standing in front of the
canoe on the sand or the beach.
>> Yeah.
>> And uh this sphere had followed us all
the way across the lake. Didn't Chuck
also prior to this feel like you guys
were being watched? He had some
>> That's what he said. Yeah,
>> that's what he said.
>> Yeah. I mean, I the last thing I
remembered before we were suddenly at
the shore at the camp was looking back
to see where this thing was. M
>> and I thought well it's still like you
know 70 yard away except it was like
instead of being back here it was like
right there it was right behind us and I
was like oh Christ we are not going to
make it back and then that's the last
thing I remembered until we
stopped at the our canoe at the went up
on the shore of the campsite and
>> so there's a little blackout period
little sort of missing time where yeah
in your memory at least where
>> Well, I mean, but the thing about it is
is in total context, we weren't aware of
anything like this
>> at the time.
>> At the time,
>> but but now recalling it, you remember
this bright plasma-like object 75 yards
away.
>> Oh, no. No. We remember the whole plasma
incident like it just happened last
night
>> and then and then you remember that and
then it just sort of flashes directly to
like you're going up onto shore and to
the campsite. There's nothing in between
that in your memory.
>> No. No. As a matter of fact, I the I had
a very vivid memory of my eyes focused
on that campfire and that was all that I
was that was my goal, my objective
>> was to reach that site cuz that was the
only indicator of where a campsite was.
Uh without that campfire,
you know, the shoreline is identical at
night. It's dark.
>> When you're going on to shore and the
campfire is in sight,
>> do you guys feel differently physically
than kind of before you blacked out a
little bit?
>> Well, this was the kicker. When we got
to shore, the three of us were standing
on this in the sand.
>> I reached down in the canoe and I picked
up the flashlight again and I gave it
another SOS. M. But this time, all it
did was it just went away from us to the
opposite side of the lake. Once it got
to the exact opposite side of the lake,
it ascended up and away at a 45° angle.
>> Yeah. I remembered when we got onto the
shore turning around to see where it was
and I remember it hovering right over
the water and this cone of light was
coming down onto straight down under it
on the water
>> really like it was there was a beam
sitting on a light and it was close. So,
I remember thinking if I had a stone, I
could hit this with a rock.
>> And it was only about 40 ft above the
surface of the water. And the surface of
the water was like a mirror. It was like
glass
>> glass at night. And then it did that
same winking out. I remembered looking.
>> Well, that was when it went up in the
sky. And then it just went and then it
>> and and when you could see it sort of
close up, could you make out how big it
was and the and the shape? It was
circular.
>> It was still
spherical. It was still
>> And it was still like maybe two and a
half story house.
>> Decker.
>> Yeah.
>> Triple deck 80 ft in diameter.
>> Yeah. Easy.
>> And was it always uh kind of white light
or did it change colors? kind of a
whitish yellow.
>> What the the the best example I could
give you to envision what we saw would
be go into a dark room with a 25watt
light bulb.
>> Mhm.
>> Look at the light or turn the light bulb
on. Look at it. Turn it off and then
close your eyes. The after image that
you have would be about as close to
>> what we saw as I can think of for
example. Fascinating. So, you guys are
going on the shore and you flash the SOS
again and the thing kind of, you know,
zooms off,
>> goes across a lake and begins to ascend
up and away from us.
>> Yeah. When it went, it it flew weird. I
remember it reminded me of like when you
have a Frisbee
>> and you're tossing a Frisbee back and
forth and sometimes the Frisbee will go
at a certain and then skips up and then
keeps going and then it skips up again.
That's how this thing it was like it was
going up a stairway.
>> What happens when you get back to camp?
>> Well, this is while we're in camp
watching this thing going up.
>> Okay.
>> For some reason,
I felt that this thing was about to take
off at a high rate of speed. So, I took
the flashlight, which I was still
holding in my hand once I had signaled
it the second time, and I looked at the
sweep hand on my watch, noting to where
the sweep hand was or the second hand.
Then I looked back up at this thing, and
then it
shot off into the night sky. I So, I
didn't observe it skipping. I just meant
that probably happened when I was
looking at my wristwatch.
But when that thing took off, within 8
seconds of the time I spotted the
sweepand till the time the thing was a
pinpoint of light in a night sky, 8
seconds had elapsed.
>> And uh I turned and I looked at the
campfire.
The campfire had flames about one inch
high. The campfire had completely burned
out, but I didn't say, "Oh my god, what
happened to the fire?" I mean, cuz fires
burn out. You You expect that. But I was
puzzled by the fact that the fire was
exhausted. So, I asked everybody,
"Should I throw some wood on the fire
and build it up?" And they're like,
"Fuck the fire, man. I'm exhausted. I'm
going." And I all of a sudden just felt
exhausted. So it was like that
adrenaline that put you into the
afterburner rocket across the lake to
get back to your shoreline safety. That
adrenaline is now dissipated and
exhaustion hits you. That's the way it
felt like.
>> But you somehow intuited that this thing
was going to shoot off that you you felt
like you got a sort of premonition.
>> I didn't know why at that time. It took
uh uh us going through hypnotic
regression
>> to learn the answer to that.
>> And the fire the fire is significant
too, right?
>> Yeah. Yeah. Ex extremely. So
>> So explain that.
>> Well, the fact that we had only been out
on the water less than 30 minutes when
we encountered this thing. So, it should
have taken us about 20 minutes
to get back to shore, but it seemed like
only took a few moments for us to get
back to shore. And when we got back to
shore, the fire was extinguished. So,
that was a 3hour period of time. That is
that missing time that everybody talks
about.
>> And the the fire initially was set, you
know, it was an intense fire. It was
blazing. Yeah. Yeah.
>> It was It acted like a lighthouse.
>> Uhhuh.
>> Cuz I mean, you have to have a point of
reference to get back to if you're going
to be out on the water at night because
as as he had said before, you know, you
can feel the heat from your hand, but
you can't see your hand.
>> So, it was this was a bonfire explicitly
for visibility at far distances.
Correct. It was going to be big and
>> but not so big that it would start a
force. Well, I mean, if it would have
been windy, that would have been a
different thing, but it wasn't windy at
all that night.
>> Concerned about it. I mean, they it's
called a long burning fire or sometimes
an upside down fire. You build it to
last to burn a long time rather than
quickly.
>> And the fact that this was basically out
by the time that you guys got there or,
you know, all but out uh shows you that
maybe there was some some some missing
time involved.
>> Well, that was because fires burn out.
This is a this is a pattern that you
notice in retrospect after piecing
everything together.
>> Yeah. In fact, we hadn't even, you know,
made that connection. It was Ray Fowler
that made the connection. He said,
>> "This is missing time where you knew you
were paddling toward a fire, a fire that
you were looking at,
>> but yet when you got there,
>> the fire was out."
>> That's also a common trope with alien
abductions. You have, you know, Travis
Walton coming back with a fully grown
beard.
>> Yeah.
>> Uh, you know, actually it was one year
before you guys, right? It was 75.
>> 75. Nine months.
>> Nine months before us. Yeah.
>> And I had never heard of Travis
>> at that time.
>> Know about Travis then?
>> Oh, yeah.
>> And we didn't know about anybody back
then.
>> We didn't know about any of this
back then.
>> We were noviceses. It was all new.
>> Yeah.
>> Which is one of the reasons we were so
intent. as I said to James to share this
knowledge with the world. I mean, you
know, this,
>> hey, something comes down into my
neighborhood and kicks my butt and I
can't do nothing about it. I want people
to know, you know, did you did you guys
report it to
>> Oh,
next day when the ranger came to collect
our trash, we said, "Hey, you know,
>> did anybody see anything weird
>> uh last night?" And he's like, "What
what do you mean? have that main accent,
you know, and we So, we told him what we
saw
>> and he was like,
>> he kind of gave us this weird look.
>> Yeah. Well, I don't know what you guys
were smoking last night. If I were you,
I'd stop, you know? And we were like,
no, this this is something that we
really saw. This thing was like,
>> how could you how could somebody else
not see it? And in fact, we asked other
people when we passed other people on
the lake system.
>> We said, "Hey, did you see anything
weird, you know, last night or a couple
nights ago,
>> they'd say, "No, we were all in bed by,
you know,
>> and you guys had six more days, right,
on the hiking on the
>> No, no, we had like about two more
weeks."
>> You guys had two more weeks on this
trip. So So how much does this change
the dynamic between you guys? Are you
guys talking about this a lot? That
night, we didn't talk about it one word.
We just more or less all drifted off.
Forget about the fire, everybody said.
So, we all drifted off, climbed in our
sleeping bags, and you know, closed our
eyes. And then the next morning, as
we're breaking camp and eating, the only
thing we could talk about was this
thing. What the hell was it?
>> It happened to me in the woods. I was
hiking solo. New year, no phone, no
gear. I was just trying to find myself.
That's when I saw it. Something glowing,
silent, descending through the trees. A
UFO. And stepping out from it wasn't an
alien or an android. It was me, but
better. Same face, same great hair, but
something was different. This guy had
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jean. What the hell was it? And we
immediately said, "Well, it had to be a
UFO." Because I said, "It's nothing
military." Cuz I I'm familiar with what
we have militarily.
I've been on enough Hueies to know it
wasn't no damn helicopter. And
>> well, it didn't make any noise. It was
totally silent. And as it flew off, it
had to be going faster than the speed of
sound. It just had to be cuz it that's
how quickly it
>> speed of sound
>> accelerated. Yeah. No, no son.
>> Mach one, but no boom. Totally.
>> So, it almost feels like it's gliding
through space time or something.
>> Yeah. I don't know how, you know,
>> breaking Newton's third law.
>> I don't know how it does that, but there
was no sonic boom and that thing took
off like Charlie said. All you saw was
this streak behind it.
>> How How much are you guys talking about
it for the next couple of weeks? So, you
talk about the next day.
>> Oh, we talked about it for like the
freaking next year.
>> Everybody that we knew.
>> Yeah. Literally everybody that we knew
and a lot of people that we didn't know,
we shared this experience of just seeing
this thing and being chased by it.
>> By week two, are you guys starting to
speculate about UFOs, non-human
intelligence, aliens, that
>> I mean, we we just said it was a UFO
because
>> it doesn't it didn't move like anything
I'd ever seen or any of us were ever
familiar with. like shooting off into
the night sky the way it did.
>> Yeah. We And we didn't have any sense of
contact with any beans or anything like
that. It was just this weird craft that
>> saw us and chased us across the lake.
Scared the crap out of us and
>> and then we were off and gone. But to
>> to get back to me shining the
flashlight, to put that in a little bit
of context,
remember I said I used to work on
nuclear submarines.
>> Yeah.
>> And I worked with reactor system.
>> Submarines
uh operate with a bubble of air inside
the between the outer hole and the inner
hole. They have a bladder like fish have
a bladder and you fill it full of air to
maintain a certain depth. Well,
apparently when I was
uh on board this craft
inquired about their
uh
power system, you know, cuz I was
curious about it and it was relayed to
me that it works like the submarine
working with a bubble of air. They can
match gravity fields. So if you set it
for, you know, like - x, that might be
like 80,000 ft up in the sky and set it
for minus1 and you're 12 in above the
water and they can move between the in
fact uh uh the u encounters that the
aircraft carriers had in California
in uh 2004,
they had a craft at 80 I think it was
81,000 ft. It was like over 15 miles
straight up in the air and they sent
planes up to that area. And when they
could just start seeing it on their
instruments, it dropped down to 24 in
above the water surface in under one
second.
>> I think it was it was right above the
water and it moved to 30,000 ft and 78
of a second. And then yes, it then it
zoomed up to over 80,000.
>> So yeah, but I mean
that's another thing that kind of
disturbs me when you're reading
information.
>> You get a lot of conflicting information
and
>> Well, I think I think you're actually
right cuz well, some of them are radar.
I think the radar thing was more similar
to what you said and then the the you
know I think maybe visually
>> Yeah.
>> But but it it's like I've heard podcasts
on the alagash many many times
>> getting their facts.
>> Yeah. And and they're mixing this person
up with that person and
>> Yeah.
>> Well, even Ray did that in his book. He
kept getting Jack and I mixed up.
>> So So you get back you see your
families. What do What do you say to
them and and how do they react? Well, I
mean, half of my family believed me and
the other half thought I was squirrel
bait.
>> You know what squirrel bait is, don't
you?
>> No. What's squirrel bait?
>> Nuts. That's funny. There you go.
So, but over
the last 50 years and especially most
especially over the last uh 15 years,
uh there's so much more information
coming forward.
>> Uh so many more reliable,
credible people are coming forward. uh
like the prime minister from Canada for
>> Paul Helier
>> came forward describing
uh his UFOs
the information he had the uh supreme
air force commander of the Belgian
uh military and you know decades ago way
before uh we were even aware air of Ray
Fowler.
>> Mhm.
>> Um came forward that said these things
uh were real.
>> Gordon Cooper.
>> Well, Gordon Cooper uh who was one of
the Mercury 7 astronauts.
Uh Jim and I gave a presentation in uh
Portsouth, Maine in 1995, was it?
>> It's either five or six.
>> And 96, I think it was. Yeah. And Gordon
Cooper was one of the speakers as well.
And we had we spent basically the
weekend with Gordon Cooper. He shared
with us that in 1957
that uh he was on the base and they had
a craft land
physically land on the base. So he was
in a jeep with three photographers. a
cinematographer who had a 16 millimeter
movie camera and he was shooting film,
35 millimeter photographer was shooting
film and a 4x5 press camera
photographer. And he said when they
drove straight out there was this
uh sort of like
kind of like a tic tac shape thing that
was on the ground on tripod.
And when they approached the legs like
retracted back into it and then it just
went straight up in the air when they
were within about three or 4 hundred
yards. It just went vertically straight
up. And I said, "Well, what did the
films look like?" And Gordon said,
"Never saw them. Soon as we got back,
they were all confiscated."
And this saucer flew right over them and
put down three little gear and landed
out on the dry lake bed.
And they went out to
picked up their cameras and moved on out
toward him filming
and he lifted off, put the gear back in
the well and climbed out a very high
rate of speed and disappeared.
>> That is so nuts. Yeah. Well, he I think
spent more time in space than anybody
prior to him in the Mercury.
>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. He was one of the
Mercury 7.
>> Yeah. Fascinating. Did he say anything
else to you?
>> Well, about seeing uh when they were
orbiting, he saw uh well, not they each
astronaut orbited by themselves.
And you know, cuz if they only had seven
astronauts, they only had seven
capsules. So,
>> yeah. Uh Cooper said that he had
witnessed and I guess he was on the
radio back with the ground control and
then they like they often do switch to
another radio frequency to get off of
the public radio frequencies.
Um who the hell did we meet? some guy
from Australia that um had been
recording and when they switched to a
different channel, he was able to switch
and cuz he knew where that channel was
and he switched over to that channel and
he uh recorded
uh some uh of the D of the interchange
going back and forth. It's it's amazing
how much information is out there and
has been out there,
>> but it was just in tighter circles. The
circles are expanding now.
>> Yeah, I think that's right. And but
Gordon Cooper is saying that he
literally experienced a UFO while he was
orbiting Earth.
>> Yeah.
>> As an astronaut. Yeah.
>> In the Mercury missions.
>> Right.
>> That's amazing.
and he had seen that one in before the
Mercury
program because the Mercury program
didn't start until I think like 59
>> 58 yeah
>> 58 59 and uh so by 1969
when we landed on the moon I was
stationed over in Europe. Uh, I remember
that
night incredibly well because all the
bars, you know, it was night time for us
over there. All the bars were open and
they all had these tiny little black and
white TVs that were all snowy and we're
watching uh the astronauts in the moon.
So, we all grabbed our beers or whatever
we were drinking and we went out into
the streets. Thousands of us Americans
and we're all toasting the guys on the
moon with our beers.
Now the moon belongs to us cuz we got
our flag there. That's funny. So So did
he just describe this UFO that he saw at
all while he was orbiting Earth with the
other astronauts or
>> uh just that it had come uh in proximity
with him and I think he said it was
green if I'm not mistaken, but I don't I
might be confusing that with other a
other astronauts that had had uh
encounters. So you guys still have some
missing puzzle pieces with your own
experience for a decade plus, right? For
12 or so years.
>> Yeah. We never really started um looking
at it until the late 80s. So what what
exactly kind of spurred
>> catalyst what was the catalyst to
>> Jim and Jack both at the same time in
two different states. Jim lived in
Massachusetts
Jack in Vermont with his wife. They both
started experiencing these identical
nightmares and
>> well similar similar. Yeah. I don't know
if they were identical, but
>> Well, for lack of a better word, they
were identical in as much as they had
the same four people, the two twins, me
and the other guy.
>> Yeah. And so, back to the entanglement
thing, you guys are experiencing the
same
>> Yeah. things.
>> He would, but even then, we didn't know
what was going on. I remember he used to
say, "Man, I had like a really strange
dream last night where there were like
these
things, these like humanoid things." And
and I was like, "Yeah, Jack, come on.
It's a nightmare. You know, I have them,
too. I have I have the same kind of
dreams. It's just a nightmare. Don't
worry about it."
>> And it was you, Charlie, Jack, and Chuck
in the dream. Just like
>> Yeah.
>> was you four at Alagash.
>> Yeah. That Well, that was the only time
that we had ever done anything together
like that. I mean,
>> so the dream is just you guys are
sitting there and what what happens?
>> Like being in a doctor's office. M
>> um strange things are being done to you
>> with no explanation.
>> So you're are you guys on a craft?
>> Well, we we
>> somewhere
>> with after the hypnotic regression, we
discovered that yeah, we
>> it seems
>> we were on this craft apparently. Yeah.
>> So, you're having dreams that are sort
of adjacent to or kind, you know, um
points to something else having occurred
and then that catalyzes this desire to
get a hypnotic regression.
>> Jim had had a an injury uh and he
developed epilepsy, temporal liibic
epilepsy, and he was having a lot of
seizure activity. So he was at the Beth
Israel Hospital
uh being followed for that and they were
going to do a sleep deprivation
study on him and he had it all these
wires glued to his head and they said
while you're waiting around you want to
read a book or anything and he said yeah
yeah. So they brought in a tray of books
and
>> and one of them was u Whitney Strieber's
Communion
>> and when I saw the face on the cover I
flipped out.
>> Yeah.
>> I was like why why are you giving me
this book to read? I don't want to read
this. And I like I for some reason I
didn't really know why. It was just like
this face just
>> negative reactions.
>> Had this extreme negative reaction and I
didn't want to have anything to do with
it. and I made a big scene. And then a
few minutes later, one of the
neurologists came in and said, "Uh, Jim,
what just came down here?" And I was
like, "I don't want to talk about this."
And he was like, "Well, um,
it's kind of weird, don't you think?"
And I was like, "I don't care what you
call it, you know? It's like, I don't
know. I just don't like this. I don't
want to look at this book anymore."
>> It was like a visceral allergic
reaction. more like a visceral reaction
to it and um I got really upset
and then
>> you know this is by the way common for
people experiencers to see the cover
specifically of communion Whitley
Strieber's book
>> and a lot of stuff bubbles back up
>> just comes up
>> comes back up and sometimes it's this
and then other times it's like uh whoa
that looks familiar.
>> Yeah. And and so he he left and and
after the test was done, the EEG,
um he came in, he said, you know, I'm
going to ask you a kind of personal
question. And I said, fine, what do you
want to ask? He said, have you ever seen
a UFO?
And I remembered like looking at him
like,
>> what
>> what the heck is going on here? And I
said, "Well, yeah, as a matter of fact,
I have."
>> Yeah.
>> And he said, "Oh, you want to talk about
it?" And I said, "Um,
not really. You know, I really want to
kind of concentrate on the seizures. You
know, I'm having these problems with
seizures, and I think that's a little
bit more important than talking about
UFOs." And he said, "Well, you know,
>> I know this guy, one of my professional
people I know who turned out to be John
Mack." No way. Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Who's this neurologist?
>> He's uh what was his name? Jonathan
Silverman, I think it was.
>> And was he affiliated with
>> He was affiliated with Harvard. Yeah.
Beth and Harvard Medical School.
>> Yeah. So, um,
>> did you sense anything
nefarious about him or you felt like he
was an honest actor trying to get
>> He's an honest actor and, um, and so,
uh, I said, uh, well, yeah, you know, I
I have had a UFO experience and and I
was telling him about these nightmares
that I was having, thinking they were
seizure activity,
and he said, you know, Jim, I think you
really need to talk to somebody like
John Mack or somebody who
deals with people who have seen UFOs. I
could tell he was trying to be gentle
about walking around this topic so I
wouldn't flip out again because I was I
was not happy.
>> And so I said uh you know I really I
really want to just concentrate on the
seizures you know let's concentrate on
the seizures. So I tried to avoid it for
a while and then few days later he came
into my room and said look you know this
guy named Ray Fowler Raymond Fowler is
going to he's a UFO investigator and
he's going to be at this um conference
uh which was pretty close to where Carol
and I live now
>> the library
>> the Marriott hotel. There was a Marriott
hotel near us and he said he's going to
be doing he's going to be speaking at
this uh or he's going to have a book
stand or something like that at this
thing and I I want you to go and talk to
him and I was like I don't want to talk
to him and he said look you really I
really want you to do this. So he talked
me into doing it and that's how I met
Ray Fowler and I remembered when I met
him he was selling some his books
and he said, "Oh, you're the Yeah, your
doctor talk called me and and so I'm
expecting you." And I said,
you know, and he goes, "Uh, well, why
don't you just start at the beginning
and tell me about this UFO that you
saw?" So I told him about it and at
first I thought he was bored. And it was
like, "Oh, yeah. I've heard this a
million times, you know."
>> And then I said, "I'm my Charlie and
myself and my identical twin." And then
he went,
>> "What did you just say?" And I said,
"Charlie and I and this other guy and my
identical twin." He said, "Oh, you have
an identical twin?" And I said, "Yes."
And then he said, "Okay, I want you to
start all over again." And then I could
tell he was giving me his attention. So
>> why was why was that somehow in this
role? And you got a base population and
a control population if you're going to
do any type of medical experimentation.
>> So that's interesting.
>> Two identical twins.
>> Yeah, that both that's interesting. I
also think from an investigatory
perspective, if he's speaking to you
first, he can get your whole testimony,
then he can isolate your brother
>> and then get the same testimony and kind
of, you know, compare and contrast. And
so it's probably from his vantage point,
you know, uh the potential for high
confidence is really there. Yeah.
>> Which is exciting.
>> And and that's exactly what he did with
the regression sessions. You know, we we
filed a report. That was the first thing
we did. And then he said, you know,
would you like to do hypnotic
regression? Have you ever done you ever
been hypnotized? I said, no, I'm not
even sure I can be hypnotized. I mean,
isn't that kind of a
>> controlled show or something?
>> Some kind of weird thing, you know, that
people believe in, but it's not really
>> science, you know, it's not science.
It's not not accepted in a court of law.
So, I mean, how could it be legitimate?
He's like, "No, it's just kind of this
like super relaxed state, you know, it's
not no big deal."
>> So, I said, "Yeah, sure. We'll do And so
we all four of us agreed to undergo um
>> regression
>> multiple regression sessions and then we
promised we agreed that we would not
talk about them between us. We would not
report anything we remembered from these
sessions.
>> So no collusion.
>> No collusion.
>> Totally isolated.
>> Yeah.
>> And what comes out of the regression
session?
>> Pretty similar stories.
>> Yeah. Something that I didn't think had
happened at all. I thought was Christ.
There's nothing to this story. We're out
fishing. This weird light came up on top
of us. We paddled away. We shine a
flashlight at it. It flew away. That's
the whole story. The whole end. Nothing
to it. So after
being hypnotized, then I was totally
quiet
with myself. Even I didn't even talk to
myself. I'm for like the next four hours
I'm just trying to
access, absorb, and accept
what I had just
>> re-encountered that I didn't know that I
had encountered to begin with.
>> Yeah.
>> Why the fire had burned out. Why I knew
that this thing was going to go at
lightning speed
uh because of its power source uh works
off of gravitational fields when it's
within the limits of a planet that has
gravitational fields. describe in detail
what transpired based on your
regressions between you seeing this, you
know, plasma ball that's glowing 75
yards away and then you guys kind of
walking on to shore. Well, uh, first
thing I remembered in my regression was
looking at my toes and thinking, "Well,
that's odd. What the hell happened to my
socks? And then I'm thinking, where the
hell are my shoes?
Where the hell are my clothes? And the
fast thinker that I am, then it's like,
where the hell am I?
>> And I'm like getting cold and freaked
out, and I'm like looking around and
just beyond my toes, I can see Jack and
Jim and this other guy sitting on this
bench like they're waiting for a damn
bus. M.
>> And in my mind, I'm screaming. I
couldn't articulate, but I'm like
screaming, "Get off your asses. Get over
here. Help me. Get me loose. You know
what's going on."
And at that time, I was probably about a
firstderee black belt in martial arts.
Shodakon karate, gojitsu,
Ishiru,
pukalon,
>> both
>> and iikido. So I studied mostly iikido
for many years. But at any rate, I could
take care of myself in a fight. You
know, I didn't I I'd had people attack
me with knives and weapons, and I
defended myself successfully.
But here I am
but naked
and I'm as helpless as an infant. I I
just it it was rough for me to kind of
cope with that for a while.
>> And uh
then
I'm struggling to get up and I had that
sensation of movement. I look up and I
see this face bending down to look into
my eyes. So I dropped my head to move as
way as quickly as I could. And I
probably only moved my head like another
three or four inches till I was making
contact with the surface I was laying on
and I couldn't go backwards any further.
>> So you were laying horizontally
>> on a table. Yeah.
>> On what did the table feel like?
>> Uh kind of like a chilly like this room
is chilly.
>> Yeah,
>> it felt chilly. Uh very sterile. uh very
much like
uh an emergency room setting in a way.
And then uh I recall this panel coming
down from somewhere above my head and it
was over my chest and it basically
covered my entire torso and then this
blue light came straight down out of it
and it had like definite
dimensional quality to it. the light
did. I mean, it isn't like like take
your flashlight or anything and you
shine it and the light spreads and
travels. This was focused.
It was localized into one shape and that
was emitted straight down onto my torso.
And there were like two beings to my
left
uh doing whatever to this panel. I had
this one at my head and another at my
feet.
And they began a clinical examination of
me for lack of a another term at all.
What did the beings look like? Like what
did the face look like when you're
lifting your head up and you see this
other head above yours
>> leaning down?
>> Yeah.
>> Well, I got I got artwork of it in the
computer, but and and it's in the book
as well. Uh a sort of like a bulbous
head with large eyes, no nose like us,
and no mouth like us. It was sort of
like a slight slit area in the chin.
No ears like we have protruding. They
were like just a a lump
and uh
not like a a lump or a blob or anything,
but like a slight bump out from the
skull.
>> Are you freaking out?
>> Freaking out? I'm beyond freaking
freaked out.
I mean, here I was an individual. I
mean, hell, I I defended myself against
seven armed kids
in Boston a number of years ago. I had
seven kids come at me with weapons. And,
you know, I I had no fear of them
whatsoever. I just told them they'd made
an error in judgment.
Just they I just had to let them know
that they had truly made one. with your
words and with your uh your moves.
>> Well, yeah, I I let him know a thing or
two. So,
>> there you go.
>> But at any rate, I couldn't do diddly to
protect myself or do anything. So, I
mean, at that moment on that craft
um but I was told not to resist, not to
fight. I wasn't in any danger. Just
comply and everything will be all right.
And I'm there like, "Oh, I can do that."
>> Were you told telepathically?
>> Yeah. When I was Well, you've you've had
the experience of being on a roller
coaster when it drops and your stomach
stays up around your shoulders.
>> Sure.
>> I had a physical sensation like that,
but it wasn't my stomach. It was like my
mind. When I looked into these eyes, it
was like uh two magnets grabbing one
another instantly. And I mean, it was
like
I understand what you're asking of me.
You like
>> I believe you instant instantaneous
comprehension of their intention.
>> Absolutely.
>> Interesting.
>> Absolutely. And so I'm they're like,
"Well, okay. Well, I'm not going to get
hurt. I'm going to get released. So, all
right.
>> Were they gray in color or?
>> Yes. Yeah. Yeah, they were grayish in
color.
>> Do you remember how tall?
>> Uh, under five feet. Uh, spindly.
>> Uh-huh.
>> Uh, their hands had four digits.
>> Uhhuh.
>> Uh, not five or three
>> as are portrayed in a lot of our science
fiction films.
uh their hands had four digits that hang
straight down
>> and the center of the hand had like an
articulation ability. So they would have
four opposable digits
>> where we only have one or thumb.
>> Uh these these beings had four opposable
digits and that was the way all their
technology was geared too toward their
hands. Uh just like our world is
designed because of our hands, how our
hands work to use tools.
>> Um but uh they had like a clothing on
that was I didn't for lack of a better
word, it's like a spandex type of
appearance where it like
tightly conformed to their body.
Um, but uh they also uh one of them also
had this wand
uh like a magic wand that was maybe
about this long or so.
>> Jim can tell you more about that because
of something that he attempted to do.
>> I'll go back to the the canoe
when we were paddling back to the
towards the beach
the the campsite. The last thing I had
remembered consciously was looking up
and seeing this craft like right behind
us. The next thing I remembered was
going up to the canoe, but under
hypnotic regression.
I remembered it being right over on like
literally on top of us and it this beam
came down around the canoe
>> and it was a hollow like Charlie said
earlier. It was it it was like a tube
>> where or hose where the sheath of the
hose isn't made out of light and it was
moving like when you see um dust moes
through sunlight you know it's moving
that's had this quality to it but the
inside was dark
>> and I remember looking up
straight up into the top of this tube
and it was dark in there but there was
something moving. And I could tell there
was still something moving up there. And
I remember thinking, "Oh
this is bad."
And then the next thing I remembered was
uh being in a room.
Um, Chuck, Rack, and Charlie were
sitting on this bench
and I think I think I remembered I was
standing near it
and Jack was um out in front of me with
um
these beans and then one of them had
this wand that had a thin wand with a
bulb on the end of it like the end of
your finger. Mhm.
>> And he was
doing he was pointing it at Jack and
they were doing they were like taking
his wrist and rotating his wrists and
his arm to see like how it rotated. I
thought at first they were going to hurt
him because they were like trying to
twist and turn it all these different
ways. And I was like, "Oh crap, man.
They're going to break his arm." And uh
and then they had lifted his head back
and they were like examining his throat
and they had another thing that looked
like it was
a little flashlight, like a pencil light
flashlight that they were looking in his
eyes with.
And um and then they I remembered them
uh walking him away
into this other area. It was like a a
hallway or something and they took them
in through there and then um
they came for me
and they were doing the same thing to
me.
And then when they went to um walk me
through this area, I didn't want to go
because I was terrified. I thought
that's it. We're going to get dissected.
This is this is not going well at all.
And I didn't I didn't get any messages
saying just relax or we're not going to
hurt you. I didn't get anything like
that. And I didn't want to go through
this this doorway or into this other
area. And one of them that had this wand
took it and they jammed it in my rib in
between my ribs, you know, and it was
like I then I got I didn't hear
anything. It wasn't like a verbal
message, but I just had this
understanding that if I didn't
cooperate, I was going to be in trouble,
>> that I had to cooperate.
>> Was there any sort of surgical
implantation of anything or removal of
anything?
>> Well, um I remembered them taking sperm
sample.
>> Mhm.
>> And um and then at one point I
remembered uh this was over two
sessions. the first session at the first
hypnotic session. Um, I remembered their
bodies, but I couldn't get their faces
for some reason. I just could not see
their faces or I didn't want to see
their faces.
>> And then in the second session, their
faces finally came through and I
remember screaming, "They're bugs. They
look like bugs." They had this kind of
>> it looked like a like a a shape of an an
ant, you It had a bulbous top head and
had these big eyes that were more
laterally situated rather than in the
front.
>> No no no nose slit fur mouth.
>> And I couldn't tell if if if it was the
actual head or whether there was a mask
there of some sort.
>> And and I thought they looked they
reminded me of like an ant head or an
insect head. Are there any details from
each of your individual isolated
regressions where you were kind of
separated from each other? Any details
that were inconsistent between your
accounts or did they all line up?
>> Some small uh details were different
like I remembered the um the device that
they used to get the um to store the
semen.
>> I remembered it being more like a
tubular shape
>> with a round bottom.
And uh there was a neck a smaller flange
on the neck.
Um but like when they took the semen
from me I was like I was so terrified.
You know my Johnson was like 3 in inside
of me. You was like you're you are not
getting there. And so then I had this I
got this impression that um things are
going to you better change your ways or
you know so I I actually like forced
myself to get that erection and then
they brought out this thing for me to
you know jaculate in. Whereas Jack
remembered more of a conicleshaped
>> device with a with a wand coming like a
a spike coming out of it or a needle
coming out of it that they actually
inserted into his penis to get this
sample.
So that was different between his
recollection and my recollection.
>> Or it could have been different
instrumentation or whatever.
>> Yeah, it could have just been because of
the way I mean I remember they let me
sit up to do it. I remember saying, "I
can't do this laying down. I got, you
know, let me sit up and then I I was
able to function."
>> And um and then uh there was another
time, I don't know if they did the same
thing to Jack or not. Now, I can't
remember, but at one point I remembered
laying on a on a on a table.
>> Mhm.
And there were two two beans at my
shoulders behind me and two at my feet
and two necks on either side. And I
remembered thinking I mean I was
terrified
>> and I didn't trust these things. And so
I at one point I'm almost ashamed to say
I thought you know maybe if I kill one
>> I can create a distraction and get out
of here. I can escape. And as soon as I
had that thought, cuz I had these really
like thin pencil-like necks, these like
thin necks, I thought, "Oh, I could get
my hand around there and just
>> and as soon as I had that thought, they
the ones who were near my shoulders and
on the side, they moved away so fast it
was like a blur."
>> And then um one of the ones that were at
my feet just it was weird. He kind of
like reached up in the air with his arm.
They had these long long thin
articulated arms.
>> And when he came down, he had this thing
in his hand that looked like a flattened
hockey was like a hockey puck, but it
wasn't like perfectly round. It was more
like an oval shape
>> and had rounded edges instead of the
>> sharp edges a hockey puck has, but it
was like the size of a hockey puck,
maybe a little smaller. And they put one
on on the outside of each one of my
shins and then I couldn't move my legs.
>> Like no matter how hard I tried, I I
couldn't move my legs.
>> Did you ask them any questions about who
they were and where they were from or
>> No, I didn't.
>> Yeah. Didn't even get a damn t-shirt.
>> I mean,
>> no souvenirs. You know, like I said
earlier, it was like I got the clear
impression that these
>> whatever they were,
>> they were following a procedure.
>> Yeah.
>> It was, you know, step one, step two,
step three, step four. I don't remember
them putting me in any machines.
>> Jack, they got a lot more out of Jack
than they did me because I was like so
terrified all the time that Rey thought
I was going to have a seizure. So they
had to keep bringing me out of the
hypnosis so I wouldn't have a seizure
cuz I would be like freaking out during
these sessions.
>> But it was almost like the beings were
in some sort of automated assembly line
and they were falling
>> in a sense. In a sense
>> they weren't totally automated.
>> Um just a footnote about what Jim had
just mentioned about these discs being
placed on his ankles
uh on his legs for several years
thereafter. I don't know if it's that
way now. Hair didn't grow there. It was
like bald patch on it.
>> Oh, really? And
>> both shins.
>> And his identical twin brother Jack
>> Yeah.
>> had tumors growing in the exact spots on
his legs.
>> Why?
>> Tumors.
>> Tumors.
>> Benign or
>> We never knew because the tumors were
removed
>> uh at the teaching hospital where they
removed them in Vermont.
uh their pathology department was unable
to ascertain what type of
>> biological they were looking at. So they
sent it to the Air Force Institute of
Pathology down around Washington DC. M
>> it was signed for by a major or no by a
colonel, a doctor who was a rank of a
colonel cuz they have one of the best uh
pathology
uh science labs in the world. Got it. So
>> yeah, when they removed this thing on
his shin, it looked like a piece of um
bubble gum, pink in color, hard. And
they said in the report that it
resembled the type of growth that is
common when you have um
uh bone marrow taken out of a bone.
>> You get this kind of tissue that grows
on the wound.
>> That's what they they said. They didn't
know what it was, but that was what it
that was the closest thing that they
could describe it as.
>> Whoa. Did any of you guys end up with
any implants? Anything inside of your
body?
>> I don't know. I think so. I used to have
a head of hair
that does that count.
>> No.
>> Uh, okay. I uh I have like a small
punch biopsy scar up near my scrotum
>> that I had never known before.
Uh
if you were to take like an old
uh pencil, the ones that had the brass
barrel and the rubber eraser in them,
pull the eraser out and
stab it into something to take a plug
out. That's the size diameter uh
>> and very shallow, maybe about uh not
quite an eighth of an inch deep. uh
right here on the inside of my leg.
>> You describe the beings as clinical.
>> Very clinical. Yeah. We were like the
chimps and they were like Jane Goodall.
>> So they were about their business
>> kind of.
>> Yeah. Right. The best analogy I come up
with is like when scientists go to the,
you know, Arctic
>> and they see a polar bear and they
>> dart him
>> and then while he's anesticized they
measure his teeth and look at his, you
know.
>> Yeah. What's that? What's a polar bear
got to say about what happened to it?
>> I remembered when under the hypnosis I
like the way I saw things was weird. It
was like I had tunnel vision. I could
see clearly
>> you
>> but out here everything was fuzzy
>> and unclear.
>> Did all of the hypnotic regressions line
up? Cuz all four of you did hypnotic
>> regressions. Did a period of about
almost a year.
>> Uhhuh. Do you have the audio?
>> Uh Rey certainly has. I don't.
>> Yeah.
>> Would I be able to It's the Some of the
hypnotic regressions are are word for
word in his book.
>> Would I be able to listen to the audio?
>> You have to get Ray. Okay.
>> If he even still has that stuff.
>> Okay. Yeah.
>> Uh but if you do go to the library or
get a copy of his book, The Alagash
Abductions,
um it has direct quotes from the
regression.
>> Okay.
>> Uh questions as well as our responses
>> and their analysis
>> and their analysis of them.
>> It's the best book on the case. Did John
Mack over see any or did did John Mack
review any of the uh hypnotic regression
audio or any of the material there?
>> I don't know what John
>> I'm sure he must have over the years cuz
we'd known John for many years over 20
years.
>> Yeah. Over 20.
Um after we had after Rey had gotten
finished with his investigation,
I was um he said it because during the
during the investigation, he said, "I
don't want you to read any books. I
don't want you to talk about it to one
another or really anybody else because I
don't want to like pollute."
>> Yeah. Well, hopefully now he would, you
know, after having written his book,
hopefully the audio, the raw source
material, he would sort of open source
because I think if anybody, you know, if
anybody should uh be in possession of
it, it should be you guys.
>> I mean, we could have purchased the
complete manuscript. I mean, and that
includes all of the hypnotic regressions
transcribed verbatim, word for word. M
uh but you know that thing was like
literally
>> yeah they're really
>> almost thick
>> of paper.
>> Now we have a little thing called AI and
you run it you run it through and you
just say you know describe you know
these accounts and give us a sum give us
a summary and then you can query it and
you so I think I think it'd be really
cool to to get these things kind of
digitized and you know then run it
through the AI and you'd be able to ask
it questions and stuff. Sounds like you
found a project for yourself while Ray.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I'll try to get in touch
with Ray and then be cool.
>> Um, fascinating. What What was John Mack
like? Uh, I uh am a longtime, you know,
admirer of his obviously, you know, rest
in peace.
>> Well, I went to his his support group
for a while after Ray was done with his
investigation.
Um,
>> and Jim, real quick, just for the
audience for basic context, John Mack
was the head of the Harvard psychiatry
department and uh, brilliant guy. He
actually even wrote the Pulitzer
Prizewinning
um, I believe Lawrence of Arabia. That's
right. Uh,
>> who's an expert on him,
>> the the the prince of disorder and um,
and as really kind of a mystic in his
own right, but also obviously
academically as credentialed as it gets.
And towards the end of his career, he
started to uh because he was a
clinician, see people who had missing
time and get into the whole, you know,
alien abduction phenomena and was
actually childhood friends
serendipitously with Bud Hopkins, um,
who was this, you know, amazing
aggregator of a lot of these experiences
himself. So, go on.
>> Yeah. So anyway, my impression of John
when I first met him was I knew that he
was a psychiatrist
>> and he was affiliated with Harvard and
he had credentials up the kazoo. And so
when I went to his support groups, I
noticed that they were in my from my
perspective, I saw two different camps
of people.
One camp which I considered myself a
member of was the nuts and bolts. I
called it the nuts and bolts. You know,
I I want to see physical evidence. I
want to see physical beings.
>> Mhm. And then the other camp was more of
a like
um
people who thought that they were most
that they that their experiences were
more ethereal or multi-dimensional
>> beings that weren't physical but
communicated
>> consciousness
>> conscious consciousness based. Mhm.
>> And that these people seemed to think
that the aliens were our saviors, that
they were going to save the human race,
and they were here to uplift our
consciousness to a level where there's
no more hate or war and all that stuff,
which was fine. I didn't have a problem
with it. I mean, but I did notice that.
And I think John was more the second
camp because of his training as a
psychiatrist. He, you know, because what
a psychiatrist's job to do, their job is
to heal people, you know, and these
people all had like serious problems
dealing with this stuff. It's like even
though they
>> even though we all believe that we
actually that these experiences were
real for us, it still creates all kinds
of psychological problems. You know, how
to deal with other people who don't who
think you're crazy.
>> Yeah.
>> Or think you're, you know, subhuman for
some reason or something wrong with you
because you have these beliefs that are
out of the box. And so it's it my
impression of John Mack was that he saw
it as his
>> mission
>> his mission to help these people become
you know self
actualized again
>> where they could be they could live with
their experiences without pain or fear
or anxiety
>> kind of re reintegrated back into
society and probably simultaneously
>> and still be able to live with their
experiences, you know, because That was
that was the difference between him and
the rest of the commun the rest of the
psych psychiatric community rest of the
psychiatric community especially at
Harvard which is why they tried to kick
them out.
>> Yeah.
>> Was that no these people are you know
they're they're lunar.
>> There's something wrong with these
people. John was saying look I've given
them every kind of psychiatric and
psychological test I could think of.
They're all coming out as normal people.
And neither of you had any kind of
mental health history prior?
>> No. The only mental problems I had was
from the seizures.
>> Um because I'd have auras, you know, I'd
smell things or hear things.
>> Sir,
>> um how many beings were on the craft?
>> Well, hard to say. Yeah.
>> Yeah. It really would be cuz there were
people or beings in the like control
room area that we were ushered through
on our way into the exam area. And as we
left, we passed because that was where I
inquired about their
power system,
>> propulsion system. And so so you've you
learned some stuff directly from them
about the propulsion system or
Well, I was explained the way you would
explain something to a a six-year-old,
you know,
>> that it uh it operates in a similar
fashion to the way a submarine can work
at different atmospheres in the water,
different levels by the amount of air
that it keeps in its inner hole.
to maintain that depth and they could
match gravitational fields.
>> And so that was the way they were sort
of examining uh example A to what we do.
This is
>> so like
>> way your submarine works. This is the
way our craft works when it's in
>> in a planetary
gravitational
area. So with like you mentioned with
the submarine, you have a certain amount
of air between the inner and outer hole
which manages the depth.
>> And you're saying that they're doing
something similar where they're
modulating
>> gravitational
fields.
>> Interesting.
>> Yeah,
>> that's fascinating. Very Yeah. Well, we
get, you know, think about that. I'll
mold that over. Well, I mean it's just
like we can do things magnetically that
>> um where you take the two
very powerful magnets and you have the
same polarity, you have all this
resistance if you try
touching them to one another.
uh and their uh ability was to match and
a gravitational field to propel them
away from
>> from a denser field to a less dense
field. I don't know. That's the only way
I can think of.
>> Yeah. Did you have any sense of where
they came from? Why they were taking,
you know, samples from you guys?
>> No.
>> No. It's interesting because the kind
of, you know, gameamt, you know, semen
and egg sample thing comes up a lot.
That's very common. It's almost like
there's some intergenerational
alien breeding program. And that's kind
of where you end up with a lot a lot of
these
>> guys. Don't don't we do the exact thing
same thing to animals?
>> Sure.
>> On our planet?
>> Yeah. We domesticate animals all the
time. We breed them. We create new
species. We do the same thing with
people and like, you know, dynasty
families.
>> Mhm. It's wild to think that, but it's
it's true. And sometimes I think about
these um gray alien beings. And you
think about what an evolutionary
biologist would say a human is evolving
into given that we're being domesticated
right now. That is not a controversial
thing to say. We are, you know,
testosterone is dropping off a cliff. Uh
sperm count is dropping off a cliff for
men. we're losing, you know, the melanin
in our our skin. That happens over a
long period of time. So, you end up with
these beings that, you know, they lose
the melanin in their skin. The the their
prefrontal cortex is larger because
decision-m is probably more important
with the advent of, you know, the AI
white collar work age. Their ears and
nose become vestigial. We're not hunter
gathering. Their eyes become more
slit-like because we use more screens.
And their their bodies are sort of wiry
and spindly because our physical bodies
become less important. And they develop
some sort of, you know, latent
telepathic power, which you're now
seeing, you know, the telepathy tapes
and like, you know, people starting to
lend more
>> rigorous scientific credence to the idea
that maybe we we have this mind matter
sort of thing. And so they've selected
for all of the stuff that you would
expect humanity to select for. It's very
interesting.
>> That's right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've
heard from some people at some of the
conferences where they believe that
they're actually us from the future.
>> Yes. Yeah. That Exactly. There's a guy
named Mike Masters. And then I somehow
think that, you know, that's a really
interesting theory that's important and
then it's somehow too simple. Like
there's something else going on too, you
know,
>> but it's it's it's always hard to
theorize.
>> The problem I always have is the
interdimensional stuff against the
physical. I mean, if they if if they can
travel interdimensionally, why do they
have craft? What do they need a craft
for?
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
>> You know, it's like what?
>> Yeah. It's almost like some of these
things are symbolic memes that change
over time. And that would be the Jacqu
Valet idea.
>> Yeah. I mean, are they is is that craft
that we saw really something physical or
just something they wanted us to see as
physical?
>> I don't know. Did Did any of you So,
okay. So the the the physical evidence
would be like the ankle, the hair not
growing around your ankle, your brother
having
>> tumors in the same spot.
>> Tumors in the exact same spot. Anything
else as far as like a physical, you
know, remnant of the experience? Well,
one of the things that
has always fascinated me personally
>> was the fact that
all of us or the three of us
>> most certainly had
uh major changes in the direction of our
lives and our artwork after the allagash
where I was training myself to be a
school teacher
>> to work with children teaching art. I
ended up becoming a medical artist
working with medical scientists, medical
researchers,
>> and being aware of all kinds of new
technologies.
>> The
technology I mentioned that they used to
look at our chests or at our torsos.
Um,
when I was a medical photographer, I
would use ultraviolet light sources and
ultraviolet film,
>> infrared
film and infrared light sources to
photograph human bodies. Um because
with ultraviolet light you can see
through the skin
>> and see the blood vessels much clearer
than you can with your naked eyes.
>> Um
so we use magnetic
fields to look inside the human body now
to look at soft tissue
>> and your MRIs. Prior to that was your
X-rays and then CAT scans and you can
use ultrasound
uh sonic waves and
>> tomograms the whole nine yards
>> all these different radiological tools.
So I was talking with a physician about
this
and uh and he said well he said that's
just like when you know uh
defibrillators first showed up in the
world you know they were these
you know experimental paddles that you
touch the heart or you know to
restart
the the heart's function.
and that all these technologies that
these beings have,
we're slowly catching up. I mean, if you
stop and any rational person stop and
think
in 1903,
which was 123 years ago,
two bicycle builders from Ohio did the
first manned flight. Not a glider. They
weren't gliding from a high elevation to
a different elevation or a different
location. They took off from a low
elevation and landed at a higher
elevation. That was flight.
66 years after that
we were walking on the moon in 66 years.
Now these
entities,
these beings that we don't know where
they come from,
uh they have science that's,
you know, even
patting us on the back saying thousands
of years ahead of us. They might be
hundreds of thousands of years ahead of
us.
uh the Milky Way galaxy.
There are more
stars and planets in the Milky Way
galaxy than grains of sand on planet
Earth. That's what I've been told by
astrophysicists. And that is a number
that just is almost incomprehensible for
me.
And uh that uh the technologies that we
have and we're developing like sound
technology without speakers
uh
bone conducting headphones.
>> They send the vibrations through your
cheekbones
>> and I hear better with these than I do
listening to people.
>> Yeah, it's fascinating. it you can
bypass the ear canal through vibration.
>> Beethoven went deaf famously and he
would uh chew on this rod and that would
allow him to hear once he went deaf
which was obviously very important for
him as this amazing composer. Um
speaking of very advanced technology
maybe the most shocking thing that you
said Charlie right before we started
rolling which I got so excited about is
I've been researching this guy named
John Norine.
>> Yeah. And he is uh you know this
interesting engineer who has this locked
patent for essentially how to fly a UFO
with your mind. How to use sort of bio
feedback from the brain in order to
remote control remote pilot a craft. And
he he talks about brain prints the idea
that we have fingerprints but you might
also have a unique kind of uh you know
electromagnetic signature
>> just like iris or whatever.
>> Iris. Yeah. So fascinating guy who seems
well ahead of his time and I have to
think if there is you know a legacy UFO
crash retrieval program which I do
believe um they are either tracking him
uh you know he's now since you know he's
past he's passed away but they were
either tracking him or they were working
directly with him would be my guess and
so this is fascinating because you said
that John Norsine you spoke to John
Norsine and he was
>> at Alagash in the 19 in 1976 in August
when you guys were there and experienced
your abduction. Is that right?
>> Yes. He read our report to the ranger
that same day.
>> Mhm.
>> That's what he told us.
>> Whoa. He read your report to the ranger
that same day. And what what did he say
he was doing there? He said he was doing
a TTR um tag trace retrieve
exercise with a subcutaneous
device that they were testing that they
could
>> monitor GPS field agents, you know,
would tell them like blood pressure,
heart rate, that sort of stuff. So he
would
>> location
>> what exactly would he would put like
this like RFID chip or something on some
other military folk and they would sort
of you know uh go off and into Alagash
and they were testing to see how well
they could track them. Exactly.
>> That's so fascinating.
>> That's what he told us. And does any
part of you guys think that because you
know I think about some of these
narratives with like you know UFOs
showing up around nuclear sites and I
don't it might not be a coincidence that
you're you know you're uh in the Navy in
a nuclear capacity.
>> Well, there's a nuclear air force base
or was at the time in the 70s up in
northern Maine. What was the what was
the name of that base? Do you remember?
>> Oh, it wasn't an Air Force guy. Luring
>> Luring Luring Air Force Base Air Force
Base. Yep. Um,
>> but this was near, was it near Alagas?
>> Yeah. 90 90 miles away from Alagas.
>> Okay. Interesting.
>> In Northern Maine and it was a secret
nuclear base. They had a a episode. It
was either 1975 or 1976 where craft were
coming over the base and these laser
type beams were coming out and they were
mapping the nuclear stockpiles. And this
is around the time that you guys had
your experience.
>> I don't know if it was around the same
time
>> you said 7576.
Yeah.
>> Yeah. Well, that's around the same time.
Yeah.
>> Well, there's like a a
many reported incidents over uh our
nuclear missile sites where these craft
would appear above them and then all the
missiles go offline, all their computers
shut down. Yep. And uh they go into a
massive
>> freak out.
>> Freak out.
>> Oh yeah. I've I've interviewed a lot of
those guys firsthand and I think they're
all legit. So 90 miles away, you had
this Air Force base. They reported UFOs
showing up within a year or two of your
experience with lasers shooting out of
the UFOs seeming to sort of, you know,
track or do
>> Well, they were do they were definitely
mapping the bunkers.
>> And that's a common thing you hear.
Yeah. that they're sort of, you know,
uh, testing the tip of the spear of
human defense and, you know, knowing,
you know, either to protect ourselves,
protect their resources. You know, some
of the people in the national security
state say there might be, you know,
doing ISR and doing recon. I don't know.
>> I mean,
>> I don't believe that.
>> I don't believe that either. Yeah. Yeah.
I don't buy the whole the idea that
they're a threat and you know I think
they're
>> they oh if they wanted to do something
we couldn't do diddly
>> that's right and they would have done it
years ago they why why it's like they
are so advanced it's like yeah why do
they need to like you know play around
with us before before blow you know it's
like what at what point in your ISR you
know recon do you say okay we can like
take these guys out like they can they
could clearly take us out now if they
wanted She could have taken down a long
time ago.
>> I mean, good lord. Yeah. You look back
at artwork from the Renaissance era
>> and you have a lot of depictions of like
UFOs in some of these pieces of artwork.
>> Yeah.
>> Um,
>> yeah. No, it's clearly a it's a across
civilizations and across millennia
phenomena.
>> So, if they were going to threaten us, I
mean, they would have done us
way before the Neandertol were bred out.
Yeah.
>> And that's another thing. A lot of
people think the Neanderl were killed by
Cro-Magnum and Homo sapiens sapen, which
is what the species we are. Uh, but they
got literally screwed out of existence.
I want to stick with this John Norsine
thing cuz I think this is really
interesting. So he was doing TTR, this
sort of tracking thing of other, you
know, fellow military combatants or
something, seeing if they'd go out in
the field and track.
>> I believed him. I mean, he was he's I
got to know John pretty good.
>> How'd you meet him?
>> We met him at
>> mutual friend of ours down in Newport.
>> Down in Newport
>> would bring together experiencers.
>> Uh, and she's somebody that researchers.
>> Was he an experiencer? Norian No, he he
was working with an artist in Jamestown
across the bay. Um,
>> what was he doing when you met him? Do
you know what his job was,
>> John? I don't really know what his job
was. He was telling us things. And then
he said, "Well, I can't really tell you
what I'm doing now because I would
probably end up dead in some hotel room
somewhere." And I was think
>> what happened to him is he ended up dead
in a hotel room. Yes, exactly.
>> No way.
>> Down in Tennessee, was it?
>> I don't remember. Somewhere they claimed
it was a heart attack, but he told us at
Anns.
>> Yeah.
>> He said,
>> cuz he was talking a lot about stuff
that everybody knew he shouldn't be
talking about. I
>> just seemed like
science fiction.
>> Yeah, it seemed like I even said to him,
you know, John,
>> isn't that a bit out about this?
>> What?
>> Cuz he was drinking, you know, I mean,
everybody was drinking wine and tea was.
And
>> what did he say was his job title in the
70s in the in 76 when he was at Alagash?
>> Do you remember?
>> Primarily the research function.
>> Yeah. I think he was said he was doing
government research. Had to be working
with the military because they were you
know ttring agents in the field.
>> And no part of you guys thinks that your
experience was some sort of smoke screen
for like covert government
experimentation. I don't think so. No,
>> I asked John personally. You asked You
asked
>> I asked John that. I said, "John, you
know, uh, is what we saw up there and I
mean, did you did we like stumble into
something that we shouldn't have
stumbled into and then you nailed us and
and hypnotized us or gave us drugs or
something to make us believe that we had
this abduction experience to cover your
butt?" He said, "No." And he believed in
what he said.
>> Yeah. No, I could tell he was telling
the truth. He said, "We wouldn't do
that. We We would just go away." No. I
mean,
>> leave you with a story nobody's going to
believe.
>> For sure. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. It's not
like you guys have like had an easy time
since you
>> Yeah. You know,
>> came out with your story. No, I I almost
wonder if the, you know, meta phenomena
of the UFOs showing up around the tip of
the spear of human defense and
ingenuity, they're showing up at nuclear
sites and at particle accelerators and
things where we are literally messing
with sort of spaceime itself. You could
imagine them maybe being interested in a
you know chip tracking uh you know human
experiment and them showing up around
that. So, you know, I think the kind of
easy lazy skeptic thing would be to say
that, oh, it's a it's a smokeokc screen
for some MK Ultra thing. But maybe the
more interesting and possibly true
narrative would be that
>> their activities, which were seemingly
covert, might have attracted the
phenomena itself.
>> Well, that's what John That's what John
told.
>> There's Alexander Graanbell. Let's go
down and listen to what he's saying.
>> Yeah, exactly. But you're saying that's
what John literally told you.
>> That's what he believed, too. that their
that the the experiments that he was
conducting was may have been just
attracting these things.
>> When did he and he ended up dead in a
hotel room for
>> what year it was. In fact, that was that
it followed a really weird uh email that
I had gotten from him because he he had
contacted me via email. You know, he was
a he was an RVER.
>> He was one of the early RVers. Yeah.
>> And uh remote viewers.
>> Yeah.
and um he had sent me an email and said
and and some of the other people from
ANS and he said listen I'm giving a
lecture on my latest research at the uh
naval college in Newport do you want to
do you want a VIP pass to come and and
attend it and I was like oh yeah
so he said okay I'll get it all set up
and then at the end of his email you
know he was into I forget what the term
is for this kind of use of language age
>> semiotics.
>> Semiotics. Yeah, he was really into
that. And um at the last sentence in his
email said um
>> uh Nor uh I he said I I RVed the
upcoming
um lecture. Uh John not heard nor seen.
>> Whoa. And I remember calling Ed and
saying, "Hey, Ed." Like, "What the heck
does this last sentence mean? John not
heard nor seen. I know he's in the
semiotics and stuff, so you know, not
nor seen is his last name, but John not
heard nor seen." And then just like two
weeks after that, he was found dead in a
motel room, something.
>> Jesus Christ. So that was some sort of
code where it's like he he remote viewed
his own
>> viewed it and he wasn't there.
>> And this was code to say he's not heard
nor seen.
>> Yeah. I mean, what else could that mean?
>> Oh my god.
>> I mean, what?
>> This is nuts. And he probably was
working on program stuff.
>> Who knows? I mean, he was working at
that time with this artist, this amazing
artist in Jamestown. Um, Duncan Luri is
his name. He's a sculptor, glass artist.
But at that time John was working with
him on
>> uh life energy auras around like rocks
and plants and things like that.
>> Bioenergetics.
>> Bioenergetics. Yeah.
>> Very interesting.
>> Very Yeah.
>> Well, this is a wild and very
interesting interview. I feel like we
could go on forever, but Charlie, you
had uh because you were in the Navy, you
had a very interesting, you know, UFO
experience that that I want to get into.
Yeah. In May of 1970,
uh we were off the coast of Spain,
uh doing what we had gone out there to
do. And uh it was just after we've
knocked off working for the day, uh
waiting for the call to evening meal. Uh
there were about 24 of us that went up
on the main deck.
have cigarettes, kick around, kill some
time until it's time to go eat. We had a
commissioned officer who was a
lieutenant, uh, a highest ranking, uh,
enlisted, which was a chief petty
officer, and then descending ranks from
there.
And one of the guys said, "What the f is
that?" And so we all kind of like turned
to look toward the stern of the ship.
And just as I was looking back, I saw
these two lights
coming toward us. I mean, faster than
you could swing your arm uh from your
shoulder to directly in front of you and
come to a stop. These things were going
faster than that and came to a complete
stop.
And uh we observed them for almost two
minutes, two full minutes.
And uh one of these
points of light or spheres
ascended so quickly that it went from
like a point of light to a line and was
gone.
>> Just snip snip. about
less time than it did for me to say
that. Snip snip and it was gone. And
then uh about 30 seconds later, the
other one did the exact same thing and
they both went vertical straight up so
fast you just couldn't believe what we
were looking at. So we turned to the
officer that was there and we said,
"Sir, what the hell was that?" And he
looked at the chief. Then he looked at
us and he looked at the chief and he
looked back at us and he said,
"If I were you guys, I wouldn't say
anything to anyone anyhow because no
one's going to believe you." And this
topic's closed. And with that, he turned
and ran up into officer's country. And I
I've never forgotten that verbatim
quote. You know,
you nobody's going to believe you
anyhow.
>> Well, this topic is closed. I think they
believe you guys now because, you know,
now you have directors of national
intelligence, directors of the CIA,
>> presidents saying, "We're looking into
this stuff."
>> Yeah. You got pilots using their cell
phones to photograph freaking UFOs that
aren't from here.
>> Yeah. It's uh the evidence is becoming
pretty overwhelming and I think the
consensus is rapidly shifting. And um
you said uh and this is I think going to
be also uh if we find corroboration for
this really you know healthy vindication
for you know Alagash as well.
>> Oh absolutely.
>> May 1970 USS Holland is where this
occurred.
>> Correct.
>> And so
>> off the coast of Spain
>> off the coast of Spain and this thing
was seen on the starboard side and maybe
it's still in the logs. So to anybody
who has any experience with the Freedom
of Information Act and knows how to, you
know, send those requests, try to try to
get this stuff out.
>> Yeah. If you can access that stuff, I'd
be certainly interested in uh knowing
what was reported.
>> Awesome.
>> Can we talk a little bit about a little
bit more about how this experience has
affected our artwork?
>> Sure.
>> Because um there were two things that
changed. Well, we talked a little bit
about your touching basics
coming. I mean, this this happened
immediately after we returned to Boston
>> and uh before we went to the Alagas,
Jack was doing um uh
>> endangered species.
>> Well, he was doing like really tight
kind of um illustrative silkcreen
designs. One of them is in the Museum of
U Museum of Art in Washington DC. poster
and devil's pup.
>> Yeah, I don't know if the devil's pup
fish is, but um anyway, and then he was
also doing these kind of like um
>> uh what kind of painting it is? Abstract
expressionist painting of um
>> landscapes.
>> That was the kind of work he was in. And
then like immediately after coming back
from the allaggash, he like just became
obsessed with this this like all this
kind of weird mathematical stuff. He was
building um models of vicazo docahedrons
out of straws and he was
>> he was incorporating grids
in all of his artwork and in very
incredibly intriguing ways. Whoa.
>> And I there's one piece that I really
loved. I would like to know what ever
happened to it. Toss grid salad.
>> Oh, that's Craig, a friend of ours.
>> Oh, Craig's got that.
>> Anyway, um and he was like I, you know,
we live together, you know, and I'm his
twin, so like no secrets.
>> And I'd be like, Jack,
>> what the hell is going on here? You
know, like what what are you doing? He
go, I don't know, but I have to do this.
I have to do this. M
>> and and like it just like kept going and
going and going and years later somebody
came, our friend Mike
>> Asherman came um to the house. This was
guy, this guy is like a a brilliant
>> MIT
>> MIT uh uh programmer and scientist.
>> He helped them build their tokamac at
MIT. And he came over one night and he
was looking at Jack's artwork and he
goes, "You know, I know what this is,
Jack. This is um get this book uh
secrets of the uh
>> world grid
>> world grid and anti anti-gravity by
David Hatcher children
>> and that go to this p this chapter in
here you'll see Jack's what's the math
behind all of this stuff
>> what yeah
>> and this guy's building took
>> wild so it's almost like your brother
was channeling
>> something
>> frontier science the same thing happened
to me when I when I came back before I
went up to the alagash I was making
production pottery I was making bowls
and cups and
>> platters and plates and things and
teapotss
>> and when I came when I was like just
days after this event in on the allagash
I had this
>> epiphany
>> I mean it was like an epiphany is the
only word I can think of to describe it
all of a sudden this thing came into my
head fully developed
that I could if I worked with clay this
way, I could do this like really unique
kind of of cre creations with clay
>> that are they were so far total opposite
of production pottery and I became
obsessed with this stuff. I almost got I
almost got kicked out of the program
because of it. But I stayed with it and
I managed to convince them that this was
something legitimate that I really
wanted to
>> some of the most amazing
>> look at
>> amazing artwork. And then in addition to
that I I became obsessed like my brother
on um ancient architecture places like
Teot Taywakan and Tiwanaku
Balbeck and
>> the temples in Southeast Asia anchor
Watt and Ankor Tom and
>> the pyramids and I I just became
obsessed because I had this
>> you know that's also common among
experiencers they'll say they become
obsessed with the pyramid. I have a
buddy who you guys might be friends with
too, Mario Woods, uh, from the Ellsworth
Air Force Base, uh, abduction
experience, South Dakota, 1977. And he,
he goes, "After he" He goes, "This is
going to sound weird, but after my
experience, I just became obsessed with
pyramids."
>> Yeah. So did I. And and I had this
>> this belief, which I still have. I I
believe that these
sites,
>> these structures, these architectural
sites are a form of macrochip
technology.
>> That they they're not just ceremonial
places that people went and prayed to
their gods.
>> Yeah, I believe that
>> that they actually used these structures
for some kind of
>> purpose, a re a functional purpose,
>> you know, because
>> I agree. Why did they have huge sheets
of micica brought to Teaot Wakan Sun per
pyramid from two to three thousand miles
away in South America and then put them
under the floor structures of the
temples?
I mean, Micah is used in the electronics
industry
>> and so like why would why would they do
that if it's not um decorative
>> and it's not just in the pyramid of the
sun, it's in all the other pyramids in
that immediate area.
>> They all have those they all utilize
this micica.
>> So, you know, Micah is is a um it's used
as an insulator
>> to make capacitors.
H another point very interesting.
>> Yeah. And I've always and that was like
just something
>> creating strong electric fields.
>> Yeah.
>> I'm reading a book now. It's called uh
seeds of knowledge um stones of power I
think it is. I can't think of the
>> author. I just started reading it uh
this past week. found it on Amazon where
these researchers went to all these
pyramid sites in Meso America, Europe,
Egypt and they took measurements of the
electrical fields, field energies of
these locations
>> and they claim in their argument in
their book that these peoples, the Incas
and the Aztecs, the Mayans, themes
were using these structures to make
their seed
>> uh more virulent
>> and that they so they started doing
tests at these same sites with bags of
seeds or you know whatever containers of
seeds and they found out that they
increase yield per acre like three to
five times.
>> It's like electroculture or something
ancient
>> bioelectrics.
>> Yeah. Fascinating. Well, Jim Charlie,
this was an absolute honor. It was a lot
of fun
>> and yeah, it was really amazing to hear
your story and uh you know I hope people
start to you know use the Freedom of
Information Act to try to get to the
bottom of the 1970 experience as well.
>> That'd be interesting. I'd like to know
>> and I want to give a shout out to the
great James Fox for the uh very generous
introduction here and thank you both for
your time.
>> Well, you're very very welcome. It's
been an honor, Jess.
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