The most important skill in the 21st
century is the ability to live happily
with uncertainty.
>> Yeah. I I I mean, do you know what's
going on? [laughter]
>> Almost never.
>> I mean, you millions of people like tune
in to listen to you to try to figure out
what's going on and you still don't know
what's going on. So, it's if if you and
I can't figure it out, like I think
we're all pretty
>> um it it is interesting that like as
access to information scales,
the certainty and the confidence around
that information like dissipates. I feel
like everybody is feels less mored to
reality than ever before despite the
fact that we have access to everything
24/7 which is like a very weird paradox
but I think it's it's there's a a deep
human instinct to seek out certainty to
find a certain set of beliefs and
assumptions that you can kind of like
hang your hat on and build your life
around and I think it's becoming harder
than it's ever been for and I think as a
result
developing kind of the cognitive
flexibility to live in ambiguity is
probably more important than it's ever
been. What happens if you can't deal
with uncertainty?
Then you will overindex on one single
belief, right? So you'll become radical
about one idea. you you'll basically put
all of your kind of emotional well-being
into a single concept or a single world
worldview.
And the danger of that is just that like
any every worldview is going to get
blown up at a certain point. Like
nothing survives contact with reality.
Um, so when you are forced, you know,
when when that worldview gets
contradicted, you're either going to
suffer immensely or you're going to have
to double down the delusion to maintain
the certainty.
>> Anxiety is all about uncertainty. It's
about trying to compress uncertainty
down.
>> Mhm.
>> I don't know what's going to happen in
future. If I can imagine all of the
different ways that the future might
unfold, especially the really bad ones,
>> I'll be able to plan and war game. And
that means that when it happens, I'll be
ready.
>> You know, there's a it's a really
strange comment on how humans brains
work that we would rather imagine a
catastrophe than deal with uncertainty.
>> Yes. You think about um you think about
it as thinking in superp positions,
right? People would rather collapse the
superp position down into something that
maybe even breaks the laws of physics.
Your dead grandma comes back from the
grave to tell you off for this thing
that you entire supernatural shit's
going on.
>> That's what you would rather have in
your mind than
>> I don't know what's going to happen.
Right.
It's interesting to like what you
described about anxiety that kind of
that treadmill that you get on right of
like trying to predict future outcomes
in the process of trying to predict
those outcomes trying to be become
certain about what's going to happen uh
you actually just inadvertently build
more surface area for more uncertainty
because every everything you try to
project into the future you just create
more opportunities for that to be wrong
and
>> yes
>> um so It it's interesting because I
think I think actually like the antidote
to this it's more of like an aperture
issue right it's
>> I think instead of trying to be certain
about very specific small narrow things
it's better to try to zoom out till you
find a place of confidence right so um
like just take like AI for instance
right everybody's freaking out about it
everybody's got you know some people
think the world's going to end some
people think everybody's going to lose
their jobs some people think like
China's going to take over everything I
have no idea if any of those things are
true. But like if I zoom out broadly
enough and you just look at every major
technological revolution throughout
human history, there is disruption.
There is some displacement. But like
society adapts and moves on. And so if I
zoom out to that wide of an aperture,
suddenly I feel some degree of certainty
that we're going to be okay in the
macro. But in the micro, right, of like
are you and I gonna have jobs in two
years? Like I some less certainty about
that.
>> Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
It's uh it's a kind of fragility to need
a lot of certainty because what you're
saying is
>> I can't deal with something that I can't
anticipate. I don't have enough
robustness in my system. If something
happens that I haven't planned for, the
only way that I can survive the future
is if I've already prepared for it.
>> Yeah.
>> And that's the opposite of robustness
or, you know, the best anti-fragility.
Look at CO. Now, CO
everybody's lives during CO basically
forked into one of two directions.
>> People either went way off the rails or
people's lives got stupendously better,
right? That's it. There wasn't really
anyone that was like, "Yeah, you know,
CO was okay." Yeah. Ticked over and
stuff really didn't shout. You know, my
trajectory stayed the same.
>> That that was
>> like a lifestyle raw shock test that
everybody took.
>> Everybody looked at it
>> and some people went in one direction
and some people went in the other. And a
lot of it is,
>> you just got dealt a [ __ ] shitty
hand, dude. Yeah.
>> You know, like that that
>> hospitality job that you were just about
to take that was going to change your
life. I'm really sorry. That [ __ ]
that blew or that SAS company that you
were about to start like Yeah. I mean,
you timed the [ __ ] out of the market.
Well done for incorporating in 2019 and
having everything ready to work from
home remotely.
>> Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting like
so one of my fans recently asked me a
question um about confidence and about
like people who seem self- assured in
kind of every situation. And it's
interesting because I think, you know,
when you hear a lot of confidence
advice,
you hear, you know, you need to fail at
something a certain amount of times and
you need to build evidence, right, that
you're capable of handling setbacks and
obstacles and all these things.
And it's interesting because I think it
it kind of like confidence actually
operates on two different dimensions.
There's like state confidence and trait
confidence, right? And so you can put
yourself in situations where you feel
some degree of certainty. Like you
you've done a thousand podcasts, right?
So it's like if a [ __ ] light blows up
right here, like you're probably going
to figure it out and be fine
>> and you're not going to worry about it.
Um but there's there is an interesting
aspect of like kind of a broader trait
confidence of just living enough of your
life in that uncertainty being in enough
situations where you felt out of control
but things turned out fine um that I I
don't think you can plan or predict for
it's like almost by definition
uh you have to live through things not
going as planned to build that like
deeper level trait level confidence.
Yeah, that's the dark knight of the soul
thing. The worst thing that's ever
happened to you is the worst thing
that's ever happened to you. It's like
um difficulty exposure therapy. Oh, I've
been here before and I didn't die, that
means I can probably be there again,
things will go okay, but if you haven't
been there before and it happens. If a
pandemic comes along again, everybody
apart from 5-year-olds are prepared way
more. Okay, I understand what's going to
happen here. Like, I I lock myself in
the house. I'll probably invest in some
companies that have dec you know like
distributed stock [laughter] buy Zoom
stock you know that when uh when COVID
happened there was another company
called Zoom whose ticker is very close
to the proper one and their share price
went up by like 400%. It's some Chinese
company like just by fortune of being
called the same thing. All right, next
one.
>> Yeah,
>> do hard [ __ ] not because it's fun but
because the win actually means
something. You bled for it. You broke
for it. You earned it. Easy wins are
forgettable. Hard ones change you.
That's the point.
I I've been thinking a lot about this
concept recently of like how
there's an inverse relationship between
convenience and significance. Like I
think
we tend to only appreciate things that
require some degree of friction or
sacrifice.
And I mean, look, there's there's the
classic reason to do hard things, which
is kind of what we just, you know, it's
like you build resilience and you you
know, you build up your endurance and uh
self-belief and confidence and all these
things. But I I I'm I've been thinking a
lot about this more from like kind of a
existential
meaning lens of that
when things are just handed to you, you
take them for granted. It's human
nature. And so if there are a lot of
results in your life, if if if we are
all kind of accumulating more and more
results and outputs in our life that are
kind of just handed to us by technology,
>> you know, [ __ ] burrito taxis coming
anytime we want. Like it it's
it's in in one way it's kind of robbing
us for opportunities of significance.
And
I'm I'm maybe it's because I'm 40 now,
but I'm like [laughter] I'm like
starting I'm starting to develop uh this
like interest in in intentionally
introducing friction back into my life
in certain ways. I I actually had a
conversation with my wife last night
where like
>> she was telling me she said that one of
her her childhood friends um sent her
some voice notes and it's like she was
going through all this [ __ ] like her kid
was having problems. uh her business
partner was like, you know, just
completely checked out. Um huge fight
with like her ex-husband, all this
stuff. And my wife was like, "Do you
want to talk?" And her friend was like,
"I never even considered like I didn't
want to bother you or you know, you're
busy or whatever." And then of course
they got on the phone, they talked for
like an hour and a half and it was like
this great kind of reconnection in this
moment. But my wife and I were talking
last night about like how just that
reluctance to even like actually call
somebody
>> without permission, without like
establishing, okay, I sent a text and
then I asked if I can call. Um
it's we're we're all so like hung up on
it's the phone is annoying. It's
annoying like when the phone rings it's
annoying to like have to deal with
calls. um that we've like robbed
ourselves of the friction that actually
builds like the uh the connective tissue
of our relationships, right? Because you
can't reproduce that intimacy through
like voice notes or text messages or
anything. So like that's a very
superficial example, but like
>> we're surrounded by those superficial
examples 24/7.
>> Is this making any sense?
>> Absolutely.
I didn't know where you were going at
the start, but you really brought it
back in Land there. Um the uh the
inconvenience of a friendship is exactly
where it grows from. Yeah. It's the
definition of safety, the best
definition of safety that's been
formally given to me is we can go
through something hard and come out the
other side okay.
>> Mhm.
>> The best definition of personal safety
and sovereignty is I'm okay no matter
what happens, which is something
similar. It's a relationship with
yourself or a relationship with somebody
else. Yeah. But you have to, how do you
know that you're safe if you haven't
gone through something difficult with
somebody?
>> It's the same thing as Jordan Peterson's
idea about
you're not being noble if you're unable
to be harmful.
>> You're just being harmless.
>> Right.
>> A rabbit doesn't choose Actually,
rabbits can be bastards, but a rabbit
doesn't choose to be harmless. It just
doesn't have very many weapons.
>> Sure. Um, but I the that line between
significance and convenience I think is
so [ __ ] right. And I've been thinking
about this a lot. I'm sure that you
>> you write a lot of things. You need to
produce stuff. Everybody in one way or
another is probably using AI to assist
them with their workflow. And what I've
noticed is that there's certain things
that it's robbed me of the enjoyment of
in completion
>> even as it's made completing it easier
and maybe better,
>> right?
>> And then you start to ask yourself a
deeper question which is what am I doing
it for?
>> Right?
>> Am I doing it for the outcome? Because I
can speedrun the outcome,
>> right?
>> Well, kind of. But also kind of not.
What I'm doing is I'm doing this thing
for the way that I feel when I have
finished it.
>> That's really what I'm doing it for. Cuz
let's say that um you could create some
prompt in Chat GPT. Thank you to our
partner Chhat GPT. Uh and
that would create videos on your
channel. Let's say they're even
derivative of your work. It's not using
anybody else's work,
>> but it was able to get a new channel of
yours to a million subscribers in 4
weeks.
>> Yeah.
>> And you just put it in and you're like,
"Oh, amazing. It's my work." Right. So,
it's still you,
but the process of getting there wasn't
that challenging,
>> right?
>> I don't think I don't think that you
would feel that satisfied. Think about
how satisfied you were when you're book
actually gets completed by you by hand
in the before times.
>> Yeah. And it's like I struggle with this
too because I'm generally like a very
technology pro technology person who
owns an AI company.
>> Yeah. So it's but I
I think of it like when you were talking
the the thing that came to mind is it's
kind of like playing a video game with
cheat codes, right? It's fun for a
minute. You're like, "Oh, I'm like
crushing everything. This is awesome."
But then when you beat it, it's not
satisfying. And it's almost like most of
the technological innovation of say the
last 20 years has just been adding
little cheat codes to all these areas of
our lives. And [clears throat]
it has made everything more seamless,
frictionless, convenient, faster, more
efficient, but it's like robbing the
satisfaction of like doing
>> which is the reason that you do it. You
do it for the emotional state of having
done it. Now, hopefully having done it
well, hopefully having done it in a way
that makes other people's lives better
and is popular, maybe gets you some
money, too. But all of those things only
matter in as much as you can link your
effort to that outcome.
>> Yes. And I think part of it too is is
that it's it's causing us to mistake the
convenience and efficiency for what why
we're doing it, right? I like I think
for example like I think this dating is
probably the most egregious example of
this. Like if you if you look at the
just the state of the dating apps,
they're completely optimized for
convenience of introduction. And on the
surface, if you're a single person, like
that sounds like a great deal. But
in the in the process of like mass
matching people out of convenience, you
are losing that friction and that and
that the struggle which is essentially
the filtration system for who's actually
going to be a good partner for you which
also creates the significance in the
connection too. And that that's that
bottom line. Easy wins are forgettable.
>> Yes. And that's the thing. You look back
on your life and you say, "Wow, I I
don't actually know how I got here. I
mean, it's great." And I look at all of
the things I have. Isn't that wonderful?
I I think about this. People that got
became millionaires, Deca, sent to
millionaires through crypto.
>> How deranging must that be?
>> Mhm.
>> Completely deranging in the same way as
somebody who's poor winning the lottery.
In many ways, that could be one of the
worst days of their life. Yes.
>> When they look back, they go, "Wow, that
was completely
unmthered
to my existing perspective of reality.
I'm never going to have a day that's
that good again. It's like it's like
having never done cocaine and then
deciding one day to complete like a
Charlie Sheenized dose of it. You go,
well, I'm not conditioned. I wasn't I
didn't build up my tolerance for this
and I don't have the story and the
narrative. And that's what we live in.
Humans live in these narratives.
>> Yeah. Yeah. It's there's also like
there's a skill aspect of this too,
right? Like especially with around money
and relationships. Like I think part of
the issue with kind of the the
app-driven dating culture is that
there's a lot of just simple basic
dating skills that you build and
optimize through like actually speaking
face to face with lots and lots of
people especially people who are not
very interested in you.
>> And uh I imagine you have a lot of
experience with that.
>> Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um the
and the interesting thing you know
there's this stat around lottery winners
where like the majority of them end up
broke lots of them end up depressed lot
number of them commit suicide and I
think a lot of it too is is that there's
this this there's a skill set around
money right which is like okay you have
a lot of money there's a lot of bad ways
to manage that money there are a lot of
bad decisions there's a lot of bad
habits around money that you've like
never developed because you never
climbed the mountain steadily over a
long period of time you were just like
air dropped to the peak
>> and so
>> clearly you just fall off.
>> Well, the stupid thing is we don't know
what technology we have now
>> that had it have not been there we would
have preferred our lives in the past.
There was a I think the typewriter came
in partway through nch's life
>> and his writing changed
>> interesting
>> when he the typewriter came along.
Previously he was writing by hand.
>> Yeah. Then after that, his sentences got
shorter. His writing style changed. And
I wonder how many people when the
typewriter came along said, "Well,
without the quill, it's going to change
all of these things." Now, that's not to
say that some technologies can't unlock
creativity and unlock your access to
difficulty. There's like there's
unnecessary challenge, but it certainly
feels to me like if there's a bell curve
of where the optimal point is or the
area under the curve, we are way
overshooting it now that a single prompt
can basically spit out a passable piece
of work. All that being said,
>> I do think that the advent of AI opens
up for everybody. AI basically regresses
you back to the mean. Like that's what
it is. It's optimizing for the mean. So
if you're worse than if you're in the
bottom 50% of anything,
>> AI will make you better. It's a great
deal.
>> If you're in the top 50% of anything, AI
makes you worse. And if you're trying to
do anything, you shouldn't be doing it
if you're in the bottom 50%. So
presumably it's actually dragging you
back.
>> Yeah. Yeah, I think the tricky thing
with all all of this whole concept all
these technologies is what happens is
that it becomes incumbent upon us
individually to go find the new
difficulty.
>> Exactly. Right. So it's like using AI
but also pushing yourself to still do
something original or unique or have
original ideas. Uh and it's and the
problem is is just like it's it's really
against our you know our nature is to
always choose the last the path of least
resistance and um so it's like very hard
to develop that muscle and I think a lot
of people just don't have that muscle.
>> Choose hard, dude.
>> All right, next one.
>> Yeah, a quick aside. There is a stat
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below or heading to
livemus.com/modernwisdom
and using the code modernwisdom at
checkout. That's l i v m o m n o
s.com/modernwisdom
and modern wisdom
at checkout. When you select a partner,
whether you realize it or not, you're
choosing a whole lifestyle and not just
the person. You're choosing their sleep
schedule. You're choosing their money
habits. You're choosing their stress
levels, their family drama, their levels
of cleanliness, their work ethic, their
coping mechanisms. All of these things
will be a baseline of your daily life.
If their normal is doom scrolling till 2
a.m., avoiding all conflict, impulse
spending, and never exercising, guess
what? You're signing up to live in that
ecosystem. Love does not cancel out
people's flaws. In fact, love just makes
you tolerate them for longer. Most
people obsess over, do we have romantic
chemistry? and they completely skip, can
I live with this person's version of a
Tuesday for the next 10 years.
[laughter] The hard truth is you don't
fix somebody's lifestyle from the
inside. You either accept the package as
they are or you walk.
>> Mhm.
I've been having I've been having this
conversation with a lot of single
friends recently of
what I'm what I am noticing is that
people tend seem to have kind of this
laundry list of requirements and as soon
as they and there's this also this false
perception of infinite options and so as
soon as the person that they're seeing
or that they're on a date with like
fails one of the qualif ifications.
They're like, "Oh, next. I'm going to
move on." And then, of course, they're,
you know, 45 and still single and
wondering why they never found anybody.
And
have you ever heard that story that I
think it I think it it was Warren
Buffett where he said that he was like,
you know, you you
write out a list of 20 things that you
want in your life, put them in order
from the thing that's most important to
least important, and then cross out
everything but the top three. it. I I'm
I've essentially started giving that
exercise to my single friends because
I'm like, you're not going to find all
of these and and and it's you've been
brainwashed. You have this like false
perception that there's a lot of these
people out there that that tick every
single box and there's not and you're
probably even if there is, you're
probably not going to meet them and and
if you do meet them, they're going to
have so many options that it's going to
be like very unlikely that you end up
with them. So,
it's find your three non-negotiables and
then negotiate on the rest. And that's
like [ __ ] sacrilege these days to
tell people cuz they're like, "I don't
want to settle." Sounds like Yeah. I
don't want to settle. It's like,
>> dude, everybody settles on something.
>> I mean, you're settling in that you
can't fly at the moment.
>> Yeah. [laughter]
>> You know, you're settling in that you
need to go to bed every night.
>> Yeah. I mean, dude, there's things I've
been with my wife for 14 years. There's
things about her that still drive me
[ __ ] crazy. And but I I
>> She's like Latina, right?
>> Well, yeah.
>> Yeah. So, that kind of comes that's part
of the course.
>> It's Yes. It's part for every course,
but it's the Latina The Latino versions
are just much more dramatic and
[laughter]
>> very loud with lots of tears involved.
>> It's spicy. [laughter] It's a spicy
version. It's the Fuego version.
>> Exactly.
>> The Fuego dating.
>> Exactly. Um but there's things about me
that like she can't stand, but it's like
you just accept at a certain point.
You're like, "Okay, the good vastly
outweighs the bad." and and you go with
it. And um and I think I think the
reason that posted so well is you know
when you are meeting people when you are
dating people
there's there's this whole kind of like
iceberg under the water of traits and
characteristics and personality and
connections and relationships
that you you're not really aware of that
they're there. Um, but that's actually
going to be the majority of the
relationship, correct? And
really, most people are kind of just
going on vibes, you know, when they're
when they're dating somebody. Um, and so
I I just think it's helpful to be like
explicitly conscious about it and
understand like, okay, if if her
mother's crazy like and you want to
marry her, like you're going to have a
crazy mother-in-law for 40 years.
>> Luck in for some crazy.
>> Exactly. Like it's just put it on the
plate cuz it's part of the course. You
can't you can't only it's not a buffet.
You don't just take the items you want.
You got to take
>> it's the whole prefix menu.
>> You know what the original name for this
podcast was going to be? What's that?
Crushing a Tuesday. The reason for that
glad that I didn't do it. Uh another one
was mind and matter and another one was
brain and brawn and it was they were
horrible. Modern wisdom was divine
inspiration that came to me at 3 in the
morning.
>> Yeah. Much better. Thank you. Uh,
>> Crushing Tuesday is not bad.
>> Crushing a Tuesday was taken from a Tim
Ferrris podcast. Okay. And what he said
was, "Most people try to optimize their
lives around peak experiences."
>> Mhm.
>> But your life is made up of average
Tuesdays. Yeah. And your goal should be
to make your average Tuesday as
enjoyable as possible.
>> Yeah.
>> And that's what you're talking about
here. That
>> what people look at is the amazing sex
or the fascinating conversation. They
don't realize what is this person like
normally? What is the middle of their
bell curve of just how they operate?
>> What do they do with
>> with the most frequent interaction
between them and reality? What do they
do with their diet? That's pretty
important. What do they do with their
sleep pattern? That's pretty important.
These are structural things. How do they
deal with discomfort? How do they deal
with things when they're hot? How do
they deal when they're disregulated?
>> What's their family like?
>> Yeah. What are their timelines like? You
know, are your timelines in the same
moving in the same direction? And that
is what what's the relationship with
money like? That is what you are signing
up for. Right. And that line, love does
not cancel out people's flaws. In fact,
it just makes you tolerate it for
longer.
>> Mhm.
>> Um, which is what's deranging to a lot
of people that they get into a
relationship with somebody who isn't
right for them or isn't good for them.
and the capacity of their love, the
intensity of their love just allows them
to stay in something which isn't right
for even longer.
>> Yeah.
>> And I think that people often feel
guilty about having optimized for
romantic chemistry when what they should
have been optimizing for is
is Tuesday evening with this person
enjoyable,
>> right? And it's it's easy to optimize
for that romantic chemistry cuz that's
what you're flooded with when you meet
somebody you really like. Um, so that's
what you're going to be biased towards.
And I should I should add, so it's funny
because I think I've posted a couple
variations of this post over the years.
And um,
every every time there's always like a
couple angry people in the comments who
are like, you this is unrealistic. You
shouldn't expect somebody to satisfy all
of these things for you. And the point
of this isn't that you have to go find
somebody who has a mother that you like
and who who's like good with money.
>> The opposite of that.
>> Yeah. No, it's like it's you have to
find somebody that you're willing to
tolerate all of all of those things,
right? So, it's it's not um they're not
trying to hit a a a ceiling like you're
just trying to make find somebody who
like nothing falls below your floor.
>> And it's also I think a lot of it there
are a couple other facets of this. I
think one is understanding that what you
what what are you particularly well
equipped to handle?
So, for example, my wife's Brazilian.
She has a lot of feelings. Uh, and I'm
just like very even killed pretty much
all the time. It It really takes a lot
for me to get worked up about anything.
Like I'm I'm the guy who doesn't give a
[ __ ] So it actually works extremely
well. Like I can handle a lot of
emotions. It doesn't really freak me
out. I don't like get sucked into drama
easily.
So there's like a certain amount of
self-nowledge
>> of understanding
this is the type of partner that I'm
probably well suited for because
>> my strength kind of
>> resonates well with their weakness or
vice versa.
>> Whereas like
>> my
you know I I have a very very like
strong need for intellectual
stimulation. I get bored extremely
easily. And back when I was single, like
I I dated a lot of really cool girls,
but who just like weren't super smart or
curious. And I I was bored within
minutes. And some of them were smoking
hot. Some of them were awesome in bed.
And I I I remember sitting there being
like, I can't believe I'm going to break
up with this girl. Like, she's What am I
doing? But I was bored.
>> Got nothing to talk to you about.
>> Yeah. I was bored out of my mind.
>> Your first date with your now wife was
you met in a nightclub and within 30
minutes we're talking about Russian
literature.
>> Uh Russian grammar. Russian grammar.
That's it. [laughter]
>> You know, yes,
>> I told you about this last time that uh
my best piece of advice for sort of the
intellectual bros or the intellectually
inclined bros when they're single is to
speedrun sending weird psychology
articles to the girls that you're
talking to and to just see who comes
back. It's like an intellectual [ __ ]
test. And you're not looking for the
smart ones. You're looking for the ones
that engage, right?
>> Oh, that's cool. Never never heard of
that before. Like, let's talk about that
the next time we get on the phone or
next time we go for dinner. Yeah. Even
if they don't know anything about it.
like that's not what it's about. Okay,
can I is this person interested? Are
they going to engage with me?
>> So, yeah, I think uh
it's funny. Rory Sutherland's got this
idea. He says you should have an air
fryer girlfriend, not a Fiat 500
girlfriend. And what he means by that is
you want to find somebody
who only you can see the value in in a
way that other people can't
>> and who have disadvantages that only you
can tolerate. in a way that other people
can't. So, if you have an air fryer, for
instance,
>> it's going to stank up the kitchen. If
you're sensitive to smells, it's going
to be a bad thing to have in your house,
or else you're going to have to put it
out in the balcony or in the garage or
something like that, and that's a bit of
a nightmare to use.
>> Not that bothered about smells. You can
have your entire life's calories go
through one machine. Uh he uses the
example that um he doesn't mind noise
when he goes to sleep.
>> He's a fan of trains and he likes beer.
So, he lived in a house that was next to
a pub with a garden that backs onto a
railway line because he quite likes the
trains. They're actually actively sort
of enjoyable for him to see going by. He
doesn't mind that much about the noise
from them or from the beer garden. And
he's made good friends to the landlord
of the pub. And it means that he can
order a beer by leaning over his fence
>> and asking for it. And he can sort of
enjoy the atmosphere of the pub from the
comfort of his own home. Uh what he's
done is he's been able to get a house. I
think it's his cottage that's somewhere
in the British countryside. He's been
able to get that at a price that most
other people would still think was too
much despite the fact that it's
discounted.
>> Mhm. [clears throat]
>> Because there are certain inconveniences
and challenges that he is particularly
well equipped to put up with that other
people would struggle with.
>> And the same thing is true when it comes
to choosing a partner. Can
>> Can we dig into this a little bit
because I I feel a girlfriend? Well,
I'll let you know how that goes over
with my wife. I'm going to I'm going to
go home after darling. I I
>> You're my air fryer.
>> You're my air fryer wife. You're my air
fryer.
>> I can cook everything in you. [laughter]
>> Well, yeah. That's I mean, she is
Brazilian, so they're highly fertile.
>> Yes. Uh
>> but it's and especially like you you
come more from this optimization world
than I do. Um, but
the person like the personalization of
optimization, like this is the thing
that always bugged me about a lot of the
optimization content out there because
it's everybody's so different in terms
of what they want and who they are and
like what they're predisposed to. And I
think the same way like some people are
more predisposed to certain athletic
activities or certain physical
activities than others, we're all
predisposed to like certain
psychological environments
>> and certain
>> types of relationships than other
people. And and and I just it drives me
crazy that there's like no accounting
for that often. Like there's no
discussion of how it's Yeah. living next
to a train track where you can order a
beer over a fence is like that might
actually be optimal for one person's
life. Whereas you would never see that
like
broadcasts on, you know. Mhm.
>> Health and fitness.
>> This is the optimal way that you should
>> get your house. Look at all of the
advantages. Well, we know that those
advantages are so niche that it only
addresses a very small cohort of people,
right? But the assumption here is all
optimization advice is optimizing
foreneral. Exactly. You know that study
about they tried to engineer fighter
pilot seats inside of US fighter jets, a
new US fighter jet. They took all of the
fighter pilots and averaged their body
dimensions so that they could design the
seat that was the average of them all.
>> It fitted zero pilots. [laughter]
There's no such thing as average. There
is no such thing. The average person
literally doesn't exist. They're an
aggregate of everything. But I mean,
let's say for instance that you had a
distribution of people on a graph that
looked like a pair of boobs.
>> Okay.
>> Right. So you have sort of two there.
>> Yeah.
>> Where's the average? It's actually at a
point where maybe nobody is
>> there. Yeah.
>> You know, this is the problem with doing
it. And I understand like
>> sweeping generalizations about advice is
something that I've always steered away
from when I can. Yeah. And it's been
massively to the detriment of my
credibility [laughter] because
I've done other things that are
massively to the detriment of my
credibility as well. But um one of the
reasons is people love certainty.
>> They love absolutes. They love
certainty. And this goes back to the
fact that
>> uncertainty is very difficult to deal
with. If I listen to someone who says,
well, we know we know that this is the
we know what Israel is doing. We know
how much protein you should have per
day. know what the best sleep formula
is. You go, well, [ __ ] hell. Like, I
don't need to worry anymore.
>> All the chaos of the world, all of the
different directions that things could
have gone in,
>> I don't need to I don't need to wrangle
with that.
>> Yeah. And it's way less sexy to say,
well, it's directionally correct that.
It seems to be the case that in most
circumstances, I would estimate that it
is good to d it's way less sexy, but
it's much more accurate for people. If
you're the sort of person, and this is
why for the whole podcast, and I see
this all the time, when people get pissy
about some piece of advice that's been
put forward, especially when it's being
caveated, well, the outlier, actually, I
think you're fine. It's like,
>> hey, dude, if this is not for you,
that's fine, but your ability to discern
doesn't mean what you should say is,
"That's not for me." Huh, I wonder if it
is for anybody else.
>> Can you imagine if that piece of advice
is for somebody else? And if so, then
like shut the [ __ ] up. You're
>> right.
>> Yeah. This piece of content that isn't
for you found you or this piece of
advice that isn't for you found you.
>> Your first port of call should be, "Wow,
I wonder if that actually exists for
anybody." [ __ ] I actually can imagine
somebody that it would be good for
that's in my life. Or,
>> huh, how varied are we as humans? That
that's the case. Isn't that interesting?
the the flip side of that, there's a
flip side version of that that I see a
lot that I that actually concerns me
even more, which is that people will
hear a piece of a general piece of
advice. Um, they will try it on
themselves, it won't work, and instead
of coming to the conclusion of like, oh,
there's just something different about
me and I need to adjust accordingly,
they assume that there's something wrong
in the advice.
>> No, with them. Oh, okay. They're like,
the advice is the gold standard, right?
it came from, you know, Mr. Guru or Mr.
Super PhD and
>> uh but it's not working for them. So
therefore, they must be doing something
wrong.
>> They must be something's wrong with
them.
>> And so they need to like go find an even
more detailed protocol and implement it
even more strictly and you see them kind
of get into this like
>> OCD spiral,
>> overoptimization spiral. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. The
[snorts]
>> the pain of trying to be perfect will
kill you more quickly than your
imperfections will. Yeah. The one thing
that I I remind my listeners on my show
of all the time is that like the best
most credible piece of advice in
psychology, like if you look at all the
literature in terms of every
intervention imaginable, um, every
[clears throat] intervention imaginable
and like what its hit rate is,
it's like maybe 50%. you know, like the
very best forms of therapy with a really
good therapist, it's like maybe cracks
over 50%. So, it's none of this stuff is
going to work for everybody all the
time. And in fact, you should expect
that roughly half of it is not going to
work for you at best.
>> At best. And so, it is it is your
responsibility to try everything, track
what what's working, what's not, be
honest with yourself about what's
working, what's not, and then like move
forward accordingly. Before we continue,
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That is definitely a that was definitely
posted in 2025 or 2026 cuz that that
that's the sort of thing that you could
not post between like 2016 and 2022.
>> Uh it would have gotten me cancelled. um
all sorts of proclamations about white
male privilege or whatnot. Um
I mean it's it's it's
difficult because there are genuine
victims in the world and there are
people who have genuinely suffered lots
of [ __ ] that is not fair and not their
fault. And those people deserve
sympathy,
but they don't deserve they don't
necessarily deserve anything more than
that. And
I think we're kind of coming out of this
period, but we went through a very
intense period where there was a lot of
entitlement associated with like I I
think in one of my books I called it the
victimhood Olympics,
>> right? It's like and and you see this
now with like a lot of like super lefty
groups, you know? It's it's like, well,
I am a abused indigenous person of color
who grew up with three legs. And and
then it's like the next person is like,
well, as a person who grew up with one
leg and is a abused transsexual
indigenous person, like my voice
actually carries more weight than yours.
And it's
>> and I've got gluten intolerance.
>> Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] And it's it's
like at a certain point it's like who
[ __ ] care? Like what are you going to
do?
>> Correct.
>> Right. Like what?
You can't uh you can't like just sit
around measuring your pain every day as
if it's like uh you know it it it earns
you merit badges.
>> Mhm.
>> I've had to pull this up. This is one of
the best takes. So Alex Homozi got in
trouble for saying this. The same thing
that nobody owes you patience just
because you've had a rough day or a hard
upbringing.
>> Yeah.
>> And he wrote a response. This is [ __ ]
money by him. [clears throat]
If you had disadvantages, I agree with
you. You are right. It's harder to be
successful if X happened to you. Replace
X with gender, race, birth deformity,
different language, different country,
abuse, etc. The main point of the longer
conversation is that despite the
disadvantage, you only have one choice.
What are you going to do about it?
Number one, take action anyway and
become proof to other people like you,
your people also born into this abused
tragedy that you too can overcome it and
they can as well. Number two, blame and
complain. And to be clear, do whatever
you want. I support your choice, but
only one of those decisions will make
you better. And I wish I could say this
without getting attacked, but you know
who wins by you not being successful?
Whoever and whatever you blame,
>> [ __ ] that and [ __ ] them. You can lead a
rebellion of one and blame the one thing
you can control, which is you. In your
mind, redefine the word blame as give
power to.
>> Mhm.
>> And when you do that, there's only one
person you're going to want to give more
power to, and that's you. For everyone
who had shitty circumstances, I'm on
your side. Your long-term side, the side
that wants you to win. So do it anyway
with all the disadvantages and still
tell them to shove it and win. I want to
be clear again.
If you had tough [ __ ] happen to you, it
sucks and that's not your fault. But now
what? Where do we go?
>> Isn't it crazy how many caveats and
like, you know,
>> throat clearing land acknowledgements.
>> Yeah. [laughter]
>> Yes. Dude, I got in I I I continue I
continue to [ __ ] get in trouble by
saying things that to some people
doesn't land right and to other people
becomes a mantra that they live by.
>> Mhm. And yeah, the the I understand
because
creating any
goal to aim for and degree of obligation
can make people who feel like that's out
of reach for a reason that isn't their
fault feel [snorts] like they are being
made to pay twice for something that
hurt them.
>> Mhm.
>> And that [ __ ] blows.
But it also makes communication really
clunky and I hate it. Like it's so
>> over and over and it it's such a a
shallow form of empathy as well. Yes.
>> To to assume that the only way that you
can be caring is if you think about the
middle 90% minus the two fives on the
end that are obviously unrealistic for
you to have thought about that. you have
to include all of these people as
opposed to hey, I'm speaking to a very
specific cohort of people now.
Yeah, it it I would argue the empathy is
actually completely disingenuous because
it's
right like if I'm empathizing with
somebody strictly because of their the
color of their skin and their gender and
their sexual orientation, like that's
exactly what they don't want to be
empathized for.
>> Correct. So it's it's it's
backfiring like the whole strategy is
backfiring in the first place. We were
talking before I did my show in
Australia. And to the people who came to
the Sydney show, you will remember that
um James came out swinging when he did
his warm-up set before me and he made a
comment partway through which was uh I
hate to say it, but I'm racist. And I'm
racist against a very unique group of
people and it's Italians. He says, "I
know that I'm racist against Italians
because I love the food, but I still
don't like the people." And there was a
a lady [laughter] a lady partway through
the show who piped up and said that I
was made to basically do the apology for
James
piped up and said, "I really think that
you need to be more careful about, you
know, some of the sort of judgments that
are being made in the show." I' I' I'd
make a joke and James had made a joke
and she's like, you know, this is sort
of make can make people uncomfortable
and it's exclusionary and all the rest
of it. And it was one of those moments
where I'm like, [ __ ] there's like 2,499
other people in here looking at me to
see if I can handle this situation. And
uh I I realized that true equality is
when you have to put up with the same
level of [ __ ] that everybody else does.
>> Mhm. If you want to be properly properly
included, the most inclusive society,
it's to not be treated with kid gloves.
>> Yeah.
>> If you told me that somebody was
treating me differently because they
thought that I couldn't handle it or
something,
>> that is a kind of bigotry and
patronizing
cotton wool gentleness that would make
me feel so [ __ ] icky. Be like, "Oh my
god, you are not my friend. you are not
my friend yet. Does that mean that you
push the person who's only just started
training at the same level that you push
the person that's a professional
athlete? Obviously not. But when it
comes to including people in discourse,
I think that Yeah. True equality is when
you put up with the same level of [ __ ]
that everybody else does.
>> Mhm.
>> That's funny. in Australia. Man,
>> I I'm just remembering I did a show a
couple years ago in Brisbane and uh I I
had this bit in the show. I was talking
about Freud, you know. Do did do they do
this in your shows out there? So,
Australia has this thing where they have
like the sign language person on stage.
>> No.
>> Signing for everything.
>> Did they have one for you?
>> Yeah.
>> Okay.
>> Like all all of my
>> Do you have many deaf fans in Australia?
Brisbane?
>> I don't know. I never hear from
>> was [laughter]
>> [ __ ] me.
>> You walked right in. [laughter]
>> Yeah. So, every show Yeah. I had a there
was a guy on stage on the corner of the
stage like doing all the science or
everything.
>> Cool. So, I I implemented a segment of
the show when I I had a whole section
about Freud and some of Freud's like
wackier theories. And I I had a segment
where I talked about how Freud had an
obsession with dicks, moms, moms with
dicks, [ __ ] moms with dicks. And I
just like went on and on and then like I
would like make the person sign every
>> Unbelievable. What [laughter] does What
does Freud's obsession with [ __ ] moms
with dicks in sign language look like?
>> I don't know. But [laughter and gasps]
it was it was just so funny to like
watch the signer just get so
uncomfortable. Yeah, it was a great
crowd moment. But there was one there
was one time in Brisbane where in the
Q&A afterward a woman got up and uh
basically started chastising me for
transphobia and um lecturing me about
how I had like a moral responsibility
and as
>> because of the Mums with dicks thing.
>> Yeah. Okay. Right. Cool.
>> Because I have a platform and all this
stuff. And uh
>> um and it was it was interesting cuz the
crowd just instantly started booing her
and um
>> but it was funny cuz like I I
I tried to use it as kind of a teaching
moment and I said something very similar
to you which is like look if you you're
it's not a quality if we can't laugh
about it
>> right like if if as long as something is
so like it can't even be spoken of
because it is
>> needs needs to be protect. It's so
fragile and it needs to be protected to
like such an extreme extent. Um like
that's that's not equality. That's
actually kind of the opposite of
equality. Um in in a lot of ways
I don't know if if I convinced anybody
of anything, but uh it was it was a fun
moment. Well, certainly the deaf people
got convinced.
>> Yeah. Jim [laughter]
Jimmy Car's got a line where he says,
"Telling me that there is a problem too
serious to joke about is like saying
there's a disease too bad to create
medicine for."
>> Yeah.
>> You go like this is the solve that helps
people to see this problem with less
seriousness. It's not being callous.
It's not being flippant with it, but
it's helping them. If anybody has ever
had a problem that's felt really
important to them, have they wanted to
take it more seriously or would they
like to be able to find a way to
actually inject some
Yeah. [snorts] Like that is
[clears throat] Isn't that like isn't
that funny? Humor, it's therapeutic.
It's funny actually the that the Jimmy
Carr quote. It reminds me so my my
grandmother, she died of a brain tumor
when I was probably 14, 15. And it was
it was one of these like awful cancers.
Like she died very slow,
>> rapid on. Oh,
>> slow.
>> Slow. Yeah. Over the course of like, you
know, probably 8 or 12 months. And we
just watched her deteriorate like week
after week after week and it was awful.
Like we we would spend every weekend
with her and we'd go see her and my
grandmother had a great sense of humor
and so she started cracking jokes about
she like named her tumor and she was
like cracking jokes about her tumor all
the time. And when it got really bad,
like it it started to get awkward, you
know? So, she's like she can't walk
anymore. She's like her she's having
memory problems, but she's still
cracking jokes about the [ __ ] tumor.
[laughter]
And at a certain point, like my aunt got
really upset. And she was like, you
know, she was like, Moren, like you you
can't joke about this. Like this is this
is really ups like it's upsetting. And I
[snorts] remember my grandmother said,
she was like, "There's nothing so
serious in this life that you can't
laugh about it." And um and she was
like, "It's my tumor. I'm gonna I'm
gonna
>> I'm gonna laugh at it if I want."
>> She's like, "I'm going to make any joke
I want about it." But that always stuck
with me and it's something that like I I
believe very deeply as well.
>> Yeah. It's a strange one that
>> that there was a recent bit of research
in the New Statesman that just came out
about the attitudes of young women
specifically in Britain. And um white
women are significantly more likely than
women of color to say that the country
is racist.
>> So that's like how how [laughter]
>> well because because there is
>> I mean I know how but it's just like how
did we get here?
>> I know. Well, [laughter]
>> it goes back to it goes back to the
desire to be seen as empathetic.
>> Yes.
>> If you can show yourself as some kind of
savior, some sort of white knight that's
going to steam in. But again in that is
so much it's such a patronizing
perspective to say oh you poor you poor
people of color you you poor deaf people
you're not able to you're so unresilient
that you can't deal with this yourself
allow me allow me to come in and tell
these people exactly what you want
hang on a second notice that the person
that piped up about the joke James made
about Italians wasn't Italian of Of
course she wasn't. [clears throat]
>> I mean, I don't know, Chris. I think
you're kind of minimizing the epidemic
of transphobic deaf people in Australia.
It is a good tolerance.
>> It is a real problem and you're not
taking it seriously.
>> I'm not I'm not help.
>> That is true.
>> That is true. I am [laughter] I am
British, which I do think means that
I've kind of got what do you say? I've
got ancestral empire privilege but
modernday embarrassment disadvantage.
You know, I I just if you would invested
in the UK, if the UK was a stock,
>> it was like [ __ ] Herbal Life or
something. Things just absolutely nose
>> dive. You you had to have seen that
recent survey where they surveyed
British people of uh economically what
if the UK was a state in the US where
they would be and the the Brits said
they'd be like number six or number
seven and it's like actually it's 51st.
[laughter] Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Although we're like fifth in America in
number one in America in uh heart
health, number one in America in
obesity, number one in America in all of
the health stats.
>> That's a low bar.
>> That's true. [laughter] like across all
of America. There's not even there's not
even one state, you know, like those
>> when it comes to health, like yes, we're
we're completely [ __ ] over here.
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someone to prioritize you. You shouldn't
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deadline, but because you are just
somebody that they value. So, if you
feel like you have to train someone to
just be a decent partner for you,
they've already kind of told you
everything you need to know, you
probably just don't want to hear it.
I'm I'm going to amend that cuz that
that works great. You know, that's I
that's probably one of my reels on
Instagram or something. Um but I'm going
to amend that. I'm gonna say that that
is true in the macro,
not necessarily true in the micro. Like,
let me let me explain this. So,
if somebody is egregiously
disrespectful, consistently,
like you are constantly fighting for
them to even acknowledge you, pay
attention to you, care about you, like
do anything. um that in and of itself is
is unfixable to a certain degree because
like if there are certain just base
layer requirements for a healthy
relationship
>> um that the fact you have to request
them means that
it's it's they are non-transactional by
nature. So as soon as you request them
it becomes a transaction and so you you
kind of invalidate whatever is given.
So if it is if it is on a severity of
scale that like there is just nothing
present at all. The amendment the the
nuance that I will add to that is that
there are often cases
within a relationship that is already
well established on trust where somebody
is just kind of dropping the ball and
uh and is not showing up in the way that
even they would intend to show up.
>> Not acknowledging certain things. Maybe
has a blind spot around something. Maybe
is going through something, right? you
know, uh, has some difficulties going on
in their lives. So, it's one of those
cases where it's like it's
I think it is margin, like on the
margins, it is not only normal, but it's
healthy to ask like say like, hey, I'm
kind of feeling unagnowledged or
unappreciated in our relationship right
now. Like, can you can we work on this?
Can you help me out here? it'd be nice
if you did this or did that or you know
showed up to my birthday party or
whatever.
>> Um but if it is on such a macro scale
that like you are asking for it to exist
in the first place then then it's
there's nothing there. Um, and I think
I think the reason this resonated I
think the reason this resonated so much
is because there's so many people out
there who are they confuse that that
macro problem with the micro problem.
>> Correct. Right. So they're they're in a
relationship with somebody who's like
gives zero shits, is not showing up for
anything, is not acknowledging anything,
and in their head it's actually just a
marginal issue
>> of like, hey, it'd be nice if you like
answered my phone sometimes, you know,
like um so anyway, that's that's some
nuance to apply to that. There's a
difference between
telling somebody that they should think
of you and explaining what your love
language is. Exactly. Right. Exactly.
There's a difference between asking
somebody to show up and explaining how
you would like them to show up.
>> Correct. This person is applying effort.
They're being thoughtful. They're
considering me. They're just maybe doing
it in a a different sort of a way than
it would maybe be optimal.
>> Yeah. Versus this person just isn't
considering me or the imbalance of
consideration is so great. And also you
said when there's been an established
level of trust, right? That you kind of
know what this relationship has in store
typically,
>> right?
>> What if it's never shown up?
>> What if this has never actually been
there? And the only reason it is there
is if you kind of constantly
you're constantly refueling this gas
tank with
>> requests and beratement and compulsion.
I'm going to keep dragging you to do
this thing, to think about me, to reply
in a timely manner.
>> I'm going to keep on reminding you that
this is something that's important. Full
stop. And after a while, if you've done
it a lot, either in the macro or to be
honest, enough micros makes a macro. In
any case, you just have to admit to
yourself, you go, this is just
incompatibility.
If you have to make so many bids and
this person after a while is just going
to feel like, well, who are you in a
relationship with? Because I'm showing
up as me, you have to assume that people
for the most part are showing up as
themselves. And the goal should be to
find somebody that you need to instruct
and train as little as possible.
>> Yes.
>> Because some people have a big tank of
growth, some people have a small tank of
growth. But regardless of how big or
small the tank is, if you start really
close to the destination, you don't need
to drive as far.
>> Mhm.
>> And then let's say that someone's able
to grow a lot, then you can both grow
together and become better than you ever
were before.
>> But if almost all of your time, you you
want to go to bed at 2:00 in the morning
cuz you love going out partying and your
MS wants to go to bed at 9:00 p.m.
because she likes an early night. In
order for that relationship to work,
both people are going to have to
compromise on the thing that they want.
Now, maybe that would expose you to some
really uh important routines that might
make your health better. And maybe that
would expose her to some really exciting
nights that she wouldn't have had
otherwise, and it'll be really
enjoyable. But also, maybe you might be
better off with someone that you can
party with until 2:00 in the morning and
not have to compromise. And she'll be
better off with someone that wants to
watch Pey Blinders at 8:00 p.m. and then
fall asleep. And that is kind of what
you're looking for overall. How is this
kind of compatibility and are our
incompatibilities
complimentary as opposed to
competitive friction inducing? I think
there's a component of intention here as
well where
there there is there's a compatibility
dimension to it, right? Where it's like
you're just two completely different
people and you're not well suited for
each other.
And then there's I and I think really
what that post was like I think what it
was kind of poking at is that sometimes
you just have a partner who like is not
prioritizing the relationship.
>> And and so if you go to them and you're
like, "Hey, I need to be acknowledged. I
need to feel special. I need like it'd
be nice if you cared more." [snorts]
The issue isn't that they're not
returning your calls. They're that
they're not, you know, showing up for
your afterwork thing or whatever.
the issues is that they don't care. It's
not a priority for them and and you
can't change somebody's priorities. Um
I I would say too there's like it's
there's a certain amount of like but if
there is if there is kind of a bedrock
of trust, if there is kind of an overall
compatibility, there is still this like
maintenance process that happens over
the years. Um, like a simple example
from my life, I'm I'm like a hopeless
workaholic and I go through these cycles
where boom and bust. Yes. I kind of get
like ramped up and my wife is super
patient and supportive.
>> Um, but I'd say every three or four
years like we hit a breaking point where
she's like, "All right, dude. You've got
to take a Sunday off or like we have to
go on a vacation. I want to hang out
with you."
>> Yeah. Exactly. She's like, "I feel
ignored. I feel like I never see you
anymore. I feel like you're working all
the time. You're always tired. You come
home, you don't want to talk cuz you've
been shooting all day." Like all all
this stuff. And um and she's 100% right.
And so I'm like, "Oh yeah, I should like
back off cuz I'm like but it's she's
also not just doing it for herself.
She's doing it because it it's like it's
for my sake as well."
>> She she's like an external conscience
for you. She's augmenting your life as
opposed to working against it. Yeah. I
mean that's such a good point that if
you're not being prioritized Stanton
Atkins got this wonderful audio book and
he refuses to come on the podcast which
is very sad to me but um he's got still
got the best relationship book that I've
ever consumed and it's only available on
audio uh and it's called your brain on
love stand Atkins [ __ ] brilliant
>> in it he says that all a relationship is
is a set of agreements
>> typically a set of agreements about how
you'll behave
>> says the first agreement that every
relationship ship needs to have is the
relationship comes first. Yeah. Before
everything else. And I think if you are
in a relationship especially after a
while where that agreement is met by one
party but not by the other, you just
need to accept that this is going to be
a high friction environment specifically
for the person who is more invested but
also for the one who isn't. They're
going to feel like they're being
pressured and pulled along. And if you
want to be in a relationship with
somebody who prioritizes you at the same
level that you prioritize them, like
leave that person to go and be with
someone for whom the relationship is
their fourth priority.
>> Yeah.
>> And they may be happy or they may end up
realizing that, oh [ __ ] I actually
wanted to be in a relationship with
someone. The reason that this
relationship was so good for me is that
I felt prioritized and now that I no
longer am because I wasn't doing it
reciprocally.
That [ __ ] sucks. But yeah, if you're
not being thought of, and here's the
other thing, like some people aren't
choosing to not do that, some people
simply don't have the time and their
lifestyle and their current setup is not
accommodating of the level of attention
that you need. You go also fine just
because they're not choosing to do it of
a variety of other options because
they're currently in med school and this
is just all they've got to do or they're
training for this big thing and they
can't spare any time because their
ultramarathons coming up and they need
to make this happen because it's real
important to them.
>> That's also a choice.
>> That's also a choice by them.
>> Yeah.
>> And [clears throat] you can go and
choose someone who chooses you as
opposed to choose someone who's choosing
something else.
>> I would I would add emotional capacity
to that. Um, and I think so the
agreement thing is great. I have not
read that book. I should read that book.
>> [ __ ] money. Just keep hold on that.
Right.
>> The reason it's so good and I wonder
whether more people are going to do
this. He's obviously a super wizard
expert of his area of expertise. I don't
think that he wrote it. I think that he
just had bullet points and he reads it
like a lecture
>> and he he speaks like this.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, one of the things that
we need to realize when we're talking
about it's so listenable and what it's
made me realize is
listening to most audio books that are
scripted
performances
>> of what was meant to be written and
meant to be read in written form
>> are actually be horribly [snorts]
unlistenable.
>> Yeah.
>> Compared with someone who is allowing
themselves to just play with the
language a little more. And what I would
wonder is when people do audio books
moving forward, I don't know how many
authors already do this. I'm sure some
do,
>> but what if you allowed yourself to add
a sentence in
>> here or there,
>> authors seem to be almost prisoners of
their own work? Yeah.
>> When presenting it in a medium that that
wasn't meant for, you go, hey,
>> maybe add some stuff in.
>> Yeah.
>> You allow yourself to have a pause. Is
is the goal to represent the book in its
most sterile form? It's the the exact
presentation of this thing cuz pretty
soon
some company Chachi PT or whatever will
open AI will just allow you to record
five minutes of you speaking and then
pitch perfect.
>> Yeah. Get you to say the book. So what's
the reason for it? Well, hopefully it's
so that you can add some emotion. You
can ham it up, right? Dramaturically you
can add a little bit in. So I wonder
whether I know that I would appreciate
that as a listener of audio books. I
would appreciate it if authors, hey, you
get an extra half paragraph here that's
just me this day, you know, really
thought this is an important idea and
maybe your audio book
>> uh break ground.
>> Yeah, that's true. I mean, I'm going to
be out of a job in a variety of
different places, even in jobs that I
haven't yet started by AI [laughter]
currently.
I want to come back to the agreement
because this actually ties into the the
friction and the sacrifice thing as well
is like that agreement
>> because I think one thing I've seen a
lot is that people think they have a
partner who is in on that agreement but
is actually not. And it's it it can
actually be difficult to accurately
detect if you are being prioritized or
not. And I would say the the way to
accur accurately perceive whether you're
being prioritized or whether you're
actually prioritizing the person is
how much how much is each person in the
relationship putting the other person
first when they have nothing to gain
from it.
>> Mhm. I think where people get mixed up a
lot is they have somebody who's really
into them, who's like lovebombing them,
giving them tons of attention,
affection, is like excited all the time
to see them,
but they're also getting something out
of the situation. And so they falsely
perceive it to be like, "Oh, they're in
on this agreement with me." And then
couple years go by, conditions on the
ground change, and suddenly that person
is withdrawing.
>> Well, also, how are they behaving when
they're busy? Mhm.
>> Maybe that person was just on a off
period.
>> Yeah.
>> From work.
>> Yeah.
>> They had a little bit of downtime and
they're showing you attention in a way
that or maybe they were going through a
hard time and they needed you. They
needed that. Or maybe you were
particularly available. Yeah.
>> At that moment and it was easy, but when
it gets hard, that person's unable to
show up in the same way because it was
easy in the beginning. Which is why the
friction is the filtration.
>> Correct. Right. Send them weird
psychology articles. Telling you, send
them weird [laughter] psychology
articles.
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learning more is a smart person's
favorite form of procrastination.
Guilty. So [ __ ] guilty. Um
I I I think I think this is, you know,
learning is safe to a smart person. It's
something they know they're good at.
It's something it feels like progress.
Um,
and it's relatively easy to convince
yourself that it is going to help you do
the thing when it finally comes time to
do the thing. Um,
but you and I know that's like not
always the it's often not the case. And
and there is such a thing as um cramming
too much information into your brain
because then you start, you know,
creating obsession, perfectionism.
um you actually generate anxiety where
there where there was less before. Um so
yeah, I I mean the the learning is
procrastination that I mean that's just
that's like [ __ ] bread and butter for
this industry. It's it's everybody
struggles with that like you know we we
all like to think well let me you know
let me just buy a couple more books on
this and then then I'll start then I'll
figure it out then I'll know what to do.
And it's the truth is is you need both
simultaneously. You need to learn, but
you need to practice. You need to do
things. Yeah. I think about this with um
people who constantly go back to couples
counseling.
>> You know, if your relationship is held
together on a bi-weekly co-journaling
session to work through the difficulties
of the last 3 days and regular therapy
and CBT, you know,
after a while, like this is just you
putting off the fact that this thing
isn't working. And the same thing goes
for learning more is a smart person's
favorite form of procrastination. If
if you keep on learning, you never
actually have to engage with the fact
that this thing might be too difficult
for you to achieve, that you might not
be good enough,
>> or that you could be good enough, but
it's going to take an awful lot of work.
You're insulating yourself, right?
You're inoculating yourself from the
pain of potentially failing publicly by
postponing your stepping onto the
stadium floor privately.
>> Yeah. I don't need to do it. And uh I
guess well it you bring up an
interesting thing with the marriage
counseling because I would say in the in
the the personal development world, the
self-help world, um you could easily
replace learning with insight. insight.
Gaining more insight is can also be a
smart person's way of procrastinating.
And you see this a lot of people who
sign up for a million seminars and they
need
>> what I was thinking about.
>> They need three do the Hoffman process
and IFS and
>> three coaches and I'm going to go do
this like meditation retreat and IA and
like you know over and over and over
again and it's at a certain point you
need to digest all of the insight that
you've gained and the only way you
digest is by like living and doing other
things. M I'm curious like where where
have you procrastinated by learning more
cuz I mean clearly you like learning.
>> Where have I procrastinated by learning
more? [sighs and gasps]
>> Well, before I started the show, just
one example.
>> I knew I wanted to do a podcast
at the start of the middle of 2017, but
it took me until the February of 2018 to
launch because I was working on what's
the perfect name going to be. That took
like two months to come up with modern
crushing Tuesday.
>> Crushing crushing on Tuesday. It was a
brains and brawn actually. Um
uh that was a huge part of it. Then the
artwork needed to be perfect. Then I
needed to listen to Tim Ferrris's How to
Start a Podcast podcast and game my way
to the top of the Apple charts which
actually worked. So thanks Tim. And then
um you know what's the I'm going to
start the channel. The YouTube's going
to launch at the exact same time as the
Apple podcast d
>> and in some ways
I actually think that feels very
justified given that that would turn
into a project that was 1,100 episodes
and you know the
URL that I registered at the very
beginning of that is the same one that
we use now. All of those things are
locked in. So it's just as well that I
got it right. Mhm.
>> But also you need to be able to pick
your battles because you can't spend 6
months or many years doing that. So
that's one part of it. Um certainly when
I was at university I did four years of
my bachelors which included a placement
year and then I did a mast's.
>> Mhm.
>> I already while I was thinking about
doing the masters at the end of my
bachelor's I couldn't remember half of
my bachelor's. I couldn't remember the
stuff I was learning as I was learning
it and I just assumed that the next
thing because I'm like I don't really
know what to do and more business. My
choice of degree that's a perfect one.
My choice of degree like
>> I'm really interested in psychology. I'm
really interested in philosophy but what
I mean I get a job as a psychologist or
a philosopher that obviously those
degrees are useless. I can't imagine how
what is the most applicable degree to
making money? Well, business because
business makes money. So if I do
business that means that I'll understand
what I'm doing. Like I dude that one of
the biggest one of the biggest regrets
of my early life is doing something that
I thought would be transactionally
useful.
>> Uh instead of just doing something that
I was interested in because the thing
that I was interested it just took me a
decade and a half to
I guess like six years from leaving uni
or 12 years from starting it to make my
own ver amateur version of that by
speaking to the world experts on
whatever subject I wanted. most of which
are about [ __ ] psychology and
philosophy. So, I'm like I, you know,
had I have gone and done the degree,
modern wisdom wouldn't have existed, but
I wouldn't have had to wait 12 years to
get started, you know? I don't know. Uh,
>> yeah. What about you? What what what
stands out for you?
>> Uh, health was the big one for me. I
Dude, I read every I was I was the fat
guy who who could tell you everything
about like metabolic dysfunction,
insulin resistance.
>> Oh, you're an expert.
>> Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. I I
>> I did used to be fat,
>> which which I looking at you now as a
[ __ ] slim trim 40-year-old believe.
Um
>> yeah, I mean I mean I mean I'm in the
best health of my life. Um which is
crazy cuz I spent years I mean I read
all the blogs. I understood all the
different workout protocols. I did a
bunch of different workout protocols. I
didn't stick to any of them.
>> Hadn't stopped drinking.
>> No. No dude [laughter] didn't change a
[ __ ] thing. I was pizza every day,
>> you know, whiskey every night,
>> uh, going to bed at 3:00 in the morning,
waking up at 11:00, uh, and reading
books about, you know, you know, Yeah.
Yeah. This this specific type of, uh,
you know, calorie is going to cause
inflammation and [ __ ] up your gains, you
know, as if any of it [ __ ] any of it
mattered. [snorts] Um, and yeah,
eventually it just took I I just had to
hire a coach and who who was like,
"Dude, just go to the gym." And I I I
was that obnoxious client who um would
try to kind of debate him. I'd be like,
"Well, you know, I I heard that like
this rep scheme wasn't as effective as
like and he'd just look at me and just
be like, "Dude, just go to the gym."
[laughter]
Like, why are we
>> fat as [ __ ]
>> Yeah. Why are we talking
Why are we talking about this?
Brazilian girlfriend can outlift you.
[ __ ] stop it.
>> Like you're you're hung over. You you
have you've been you ate a pizza last
night. Like just go to the gym.
>> You're a mess. You're a mess. And I
think there's sort of the
overoptimization thing I think is really
falling away. Like if I was to me and my
friends play a game of bear or bull
pretty frequently, which which is just
anything. Pick anything. A trend in the
world, an individual, a type of fashion,
a product, whatever you want. Country, a
culture. What are you bullish on and
what are you bearish on? What would you
invest in and what would you what would
you bet against?
>> And uh I think that overoptimization
I'm heavily heavily against at the
moment. I think people are drowning in
information. They're drowning in advice
>> and what they want is a degree of
simplicity.
>> Uh and more than anything they want
connection. This is the thing. I'm
talking about the relationship stuff. I
kind of tracked my journey of learning
about relationships and it broke down
into a few different epochs. So I guess
I became interested in what was
happening with mating and dating. You
see these stats around sexlessness and
stuff like that and you think, "Oh wow,
that's interesting. I should do some
research." You look at Pew, you start to
look at the the Institute for Family
Studies and you go, "Oh my gosh, isn't
this strange?"
>> And then you go, "Well, I wonder what's
going on." So you start to learn
evolutionary psychology. You think,
okay, well, I'm going to learn about the
physics of the system, the principles
that are maybe guiding some of these
decisions and but that's still not
enough, right? And then you combine them
and that's where you get to something
akin to red pill or a more sanitized
version of red pill, right? Or you know,
feminism tries to do the same thing. And
I'm going to look at mismatch and I'm
going to work out why the current
situation and ancestral programming how
they're coming together, right? What
what that's causing. That's still not
actually what a relationship is,
>> right?
>> A relationship is your nervous system
interacting with someone else's.
>> Like relating has nothing to do with any
of these.
>> This is it's totally the Midwit meme of
like the idiots like just go talk to
girls and like the Jedi like just go
talk to girls.
>> Exactly. It's like [laughter]
>> she makes me feel good, bro. She makes
me feel good, bro. I must ensure that my
mate value is matched with hers with an
optimal fertility window so that we can
ensure that our children like No, no.
Like eat protein, lift weights. Eat
protein, lift weights.
>> Yeah.
>> My intra window workout window must be
predigested and ensure that the like No,
no, no, no. Can I put you on the spot?
>> Yeah.
>> So, I think it was maybe two years ago,
maybe a year. No, maybe two years. There
was a point like I a couple years ago I
saw you and you said that you or maybe
it was one of your Q&A. You said that
you were going to make um finding a
wife, starting a family like a big
priority.
Do you think you're doing this with that
like finding more insight or do you feel
like you're making headway?
>> Uh trying my best. One of the challenges
there is that you can't do it solo,
>> right? Uh you can put all of the time in
that you want, but inherently what you
have to do is have another person to
dance with. M so uh certainly to a
degree I think I wanted to bring this up
about a talking point that both you and
Scott Galloway push and I think that
it's done
>> in real good faith.
>> Mhm. But speaking as somebody that is
the child of that the progeny of that
philosophy
>> uh I think contributes to it and this is
the single most important decision that
you make in your life will be the person
that you choose to spend it with
>> right
>> and this may be an important piece of
advice for many people maybe even most
people who don't think about that who
fall backward into a relationship with
someone they met when they were 24
>> and then before they know it they're
kind of living together but they didn't
really choose it and they've kind of got
a dog and then I guess we're engaged and
[ __ ] we've got a kid.
>> Do I like this person?
>> Like are we are we actually good for
each other and they were too
unintentional about it.
>> Yeah. But on the flip side, especially
as people are dating older and older
now, that advice I think can create an
awful lot of anxiety and it's meant to
say treat this decision with appropriate
care because it's very influential.
>> Yeah.
>> But I do think that and I've said this
too, right? because I believe it,
>> right?
>> But that when that rubber meets the
road, like functionally
>> what that ends up being is,
>> well, I mean, I I really should spend an
awful lot more time scrutinizing this
person, which is the opposite of the
other one, just what's a good Tuesday
look like? Marrying those two. And
that's certainly been a challenge. There
is a curse of knowledge when it comes to
>> Yeah.
>> uh dating. And yeah, I've definitely
decided to jump in at the deep end with
that.
>> Yeah, I could see that. It's interesting
because I think it's it's one of those
things. It's one of those talking points
the importance of like choosing your
partner.
It it's
I think it is objectively true in a
vacuum. I don't know how helpful it is
when you're sitting across from
somebody, right? Like because ultimately
the majority of whoever you do end up
marrying, the majority of that marriage
is not going to be found. It's going to
be built over the course of the
relationship. And so it's it's almost
like
>> it's almost like and this is gonna sound
really trit, but it's almost like
finding a business partner. Like you
it's not you're not looking for somebody
who's had who has it figured out or has
you figured out. It's almost just like
this is somebody I can work with.
>> Like can you build with this person?
>> I can build something with this person.
Y
>> we we get along well. We fight well
which is equally as important.
>> Um
they're high integrity, good character.
We have some things in common. Mhm.
>> Awesome.
>> Challenges make us stronger, not weaker.
>> Let's see how far we can go. And and at
a certain point, you just you just opt
in, right? It's like the let's
incorporate this business.
>> Yeah. And it's it's a one-way door. And
it's the fact that it is a one-way door
is what keeps you guys keeps both people
fully invested. Yeah.
>> To keep working on it, which is why
situationships are so damaging. Yes. To
people because it's a halfway door. Yes.
And typically a situationship is a
one-way door for one party
>> and a revolving door for the other
party. [laughter]
>> Yes, pretty much.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. All right. Neediness occurs when
you place a higher priority on what
others think of you than what you think
of yourself. Anytime you alter your
words or behavior to fit someone else's
needs rather than your own, that's
needy. Anytime you lie about your
interests, hobbies, or background,
that's needy. Anytime you pursue a goal
to impress others rather than fulfill
yourself, that's needy. Whereas most
people focus on what behavior is
attractive or unattractive, what
determines neediness and therefore
attractiveness is the why behind your
behavior. You can say the coolest thing
or do what everyone else does, but if
you do it for the wrong reason, you will
come off as needy and desperate and turn
people off.
>> Pulling out the classics. That's an old
one, dude.
>> The old hits. That's from models. Um
>> it's going to be 15 years old this year.
>> Unreal. Everyone needs to go and read
it, dude. Anyone that needs a new book,
go and read an old book. And that is now
an old book.
>> It is.
>> That and Mate by Jeffrey Miller and
Tucker Max are the twocar garage of
dating books for men.
>> Yeah,
>> that's it. And it's still relevant now.
It's mad that like, hey,
>> a t-shirt that fits
>> and jeans that don't have stains on them
is still probably revolutionary advice
for a lot of guys. But yeah, it's it's
[ __ ] it's money.
>> Yeah. Um,
>> but the whole thesis of that book, for
the people that haven't read it,
>> neediness is unattractive. Yes.
Basically, you could summarize the whole
book for men as in dating neediness is
unattractive.
>> It it it's really funny because uh so
for people listening who don't know,
like I started my career as a dating
coach and from like 2008 to like 2013,
Models came out 2011, but I was meeting
dozens and dozens of guys in person. I
was taking them out to bars and clubs
and helping them meet girls online and,
you know, giving them advice on on
dates, on relationships, everything. And
it it was so funny because at the time
it was like the whole men's dating
advice space, it was super fragmented.
There was almost like different classes
you had to take at a college, right?
There was like texting game and and then
there was like the first date that you
had to master and then there was the
opener that you had to like figure out.
And I I just I kind of wanted a unified
theory of men's attractiveness cuz I I
what I noticed is that guys who were
supremely attractive in one moment in
one like in one phase of the early
relationship just seem to not really
have any problems in any other part.
It's not it's not like there were any
men who were like amazing at meeting a
girl in a bar and then went on a date
and just embarrassed themselves. Like it
just didn't really happen. It was you
kind of either had
>> winners and losers.
>> Yeah. You either had the skills or you
didn't. And there was nothing special
about like a text message or uh you know
a a second date that like you couldn't
figure out if you if you had the
fundamentals in place. So, I was like
kind of searching for this this unified
theory of of like men's attractiveness.
And what I noticed what I noticed about
all of the men that I knew who were
incredibly successful with women
regardless of their circumstances in
life, you know, how old they were, their
appearance, money, background, anything
was they just had this they prioritized
their perception of themselves over the
perception of the girls. Like all the
guys who were who were terrible with
women and who struggled with women and
even some of the ones who could kind of
perform like a dancing monkey and like
maybe get a little like a hookup here
and there,
>> but they would lose the girl inevitably
within a few days.
>> I noticed that everything that motivated
what they said, what they did, how they
dressed, how they presented themselves,
it was what is she going to like and
what does she want to hear? And um
and so it it kind of it it became this
what I realized around that time is that
ultimately
and I think this is true for women as
well but I think it's more true of men
that your attractiveness is really
dictated by your comfort with yourself
>> and how
deeply you have explored your own life,
your own identity and your willingness
to share that with the world. Mhm.
>> Um and
the result neediness was kind of that
glue that held everything together or
the concept of non- neediness, right?
It's like don't do things for other
people's approval. Don't don't change
your lifestyle for other people's
approval. Don't work out for other
people's approval. Don't say some
[ __ ] line in a bar for other
people's approval. Like, it's just it's
all the same thing. It's all just being
needy for validation and approval. Um,
and it it's
I guess I I'm fortunate it's just a very
timeless concept. Like it's it's
>> as true today as it was then.
>> Yeah. And it probably always will be
because it's I think it's if I was to
describe my career in like a simple
phrase, it would be taking very abstract
intangible concepts and like
concretizing them in a single phrase or
a single term in a way that like an
average person on the street can
understand and use them. Like that's
entire like that's essentially my entire
job and [clears throat] like why I'm
here and why I've done anything.
[snorts] Um, and I think I think the
non- neediness was like my first real
success at that.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Essentializing,
distilling things down. Someone once the
two best descriptions I've ever heard of
modern wisdom, one was uh
>> brains and yeah, it was [laughter]
crushing a Tuesday actually. Um,
dispelling comforting myths was one
>> and another one was, uh, it feels like
spirul spirulina for my soul in an
environment filled with fast food for my
amygdala.
>> I was like, that's that's that's lovely.
Very poetic.
>> But yeah, like look, essentializing
something. There's this big fluffy
concept. Like what were we saying?
Overoptimization, too much information.
I'm feeling all d like I don't think
that you're going to get even with where
LLMs are at the moment. I don't think
you're going to be able to get the
unwieldy world of human attraction
distilled down to
prioritize your approval of yourself
over other people's approval of you.
>> Mhm.
>> Don't be needy. Right. That just that is
a distillation that kind of requires a
human in the loop.
>> Yeah.
>> Because it's about language. It's about
okay, what does this mean? Not what is
it if you synthesize it, right? It's not
a synthetic idea. It's still quite an
organic one. But yeah, when I think
about the the problem with the neediness
thing, it also explains why so many guys
felt like I mean the red pill movement
was born out of PUA hate.
>> Do you remember that?
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Cuz that was your era, the PUA
hate thing. So these are guys who had
>> I remember that forum
>> found success or found failure with
pickup artistry. And I think that both
of them were quite deranged. The guys
that had found failure with pickup
artistry saw themselves as so broken
that even the most evidence-based system
to ensure that they could get laid
couldn't help them. And I mean that's
pretty dispariting. But then the guys
who did find success with it also felt
like they were dispirited cuz they said,
"God, look at how much I have to contort
myself."
>> Yeah.
>> In order to be remotely attractive to a
woman. And this is an example of none of
them stop to consider that it's just
maybe the system is wrong. Like the
model is incorrect and so they just
assume no women are incorrect. Right?
It's like it's the problem isn't uh uh
that like every woman on the planet is
broken. It's the problem is is that your
model of dating and human relationships
is broken and but you're not willing to
toss that out because you're so
psychologically dependent on it. Um I
fun thing. So, I name checked you. Um,
I did, you know, Jubilees Surrounded.
Yes. So, I just shot an episode with
them. What for? What was the thing? One
man versus the manosphere.
>> No [ __ ] way. You went up against the
manosphere.
>> Yeah.
>> Who was in the room? Anyone that I'd
know?
>> Um, I don't think so.
>> No big names. No huge names. There's
been a couple of that just to I'm
[ __ ] fascinated by this. A couple of
them had uh people who were sort of
moderately wellknown.
>> Yeah.
>> Going in, but maybe you're not deep in
the manosphere enough to know who was
that.
>> Yeah. Maybe. Who knows? Maybe there was
a guy there that
>> it's amazing that they chose you,
especially somebody who came out of that
world. That's a unique choice. That's
cool.
>> It It's interesting because I I I told
the producers I was like in the
pre-production.
>> I'm proto manosphere.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I told him I was Well, first
of all, they were concerned. They're
like, "Are you ready for I'm" I'm like,
"Dude, I'm the first five years of my
career I spent arguing with these
[ __ ] guys." So, like, yes, I'm more
than prepared. Um, I know all the
evolutionary psych and all their like
silly theories. Um, but it was
interesting because I told him, I was
like, "You realize that like half these
guys are probably going to be fans of
mine and they they're going to have read
my book and and they were actually all
for it." So, they were like, "No, no,
no. This is like we kind of want this
dynamic."
>> Um, so it was really interesting. Uh, it
actually went really well. They were
like way more respectful than I
expected. And um and some of them were
super smart, which I I've been around
enough of those guys to know that like a
lot of them were super well read.
>> Um but it it it was funny because
afterwards a few of them were like they
said they're like, "I can't believe we
debated you. I thought I thought I was
going to be debating like some women's
studies professor, you know, from UCSF
or something." Um, but I name checked
you because like one of the things that
one of my talking points was like I I
said it's it's the manosphere is the
incorrect solution to the correct
problem. The correct problem is young
men are struggling. There's a real
crisis going on and it's not talked
about enough and you and I both know
that. But this is not what's going to
work. Like this is this is not helping.
Um, and so the issue isn't and and then
of course a lot of the guys came with
like well there's this great advice and
like Andrew Tate got me to like get my
life together. I'm like that's great but
the problem isn't the advice you know
the seed of adi advice embedded within
the manosphere content. It's the problem
is the packaging. Like you can go find
that advice anywhere and it's great that
that particular packaging reached you in
that moment but you need to be able to
let it go. Um, and so a couple of the
guys, they're like, "Oh, well then what
should we listen to instead?" And
anyway, I I I threw your name into
>> Let's [ __ ] go, dude. I'm sufficiently
sanitized. I've got the seal of
approval. I appreciate that. Hey, man. I
I [ __ ] uh I think this is I've said
this to Mick. I know Jordan's in a bad
way at the moment, but
>> the timing of Jordan Peterson to get ill
and also aggressively do the God pivot
>> was highly [ __ ] inconvenient for
where the culture was moving because I
think that a lot of what you're seeing
with
>> the more
canankerous sides of the manosphere
would not have had the oxygen and
[clears throat] the fuel to be able to
get big had you have still had Jordan
floating around.
>> I Yeah, it's almost like he was too
early. Uh
>> he did. He timed the market. He was
right but early and then created the gap
>> and then stopped supplying the demand.
He created the demand and then stopped
servicing the market.
>> Yeah. I And I have to give him credit
too cuz um I mean I I've always
appreciated his work, but I remember I
remember back when he first kind of got
big uh and he was kind of going on about
a lot of this stuff. I was I was like
really like is this really such a like
do we really need to be talking about I
thought we solved this right
>> um but it it's been it's been pretty eye
opening how just in terms of of like
correctly identifying a a cultural
catastrophe years before it
>> preient yeah preient as [ __ ] like so
precient and I go back and listen to you
know golden era JBP of which you know
I've got many episodes with him and I
look forward to him coming back with a
fully functioning brain. Um,
it gets more true.
>> His big one of you want real adventure
in life, tell the truth. Like, [ __ ] me.
Like, every single time that I think
about there's a problem in my life, it's
because I'm not telling the truth. Every
single time.
>> I'm like, Jesus Christ,
>> it is it was really, really good. and he
got embroiled in things and became in
many ways like he got deranged by the
level of aggression that he was being
attacked by. This wonderful article from
Ethan Strauss on Substack that people
should go and read. It's called um
criticism capture is more deranging than
audience capture.
>> He basically says that it's the
criticism is not the compliments that
sway the way that we move.
>> Yeah. And in my experience and watching
a lot of people on the internet that
becomes so true. Look at anybody who is
really really
militant and and
gregarious with the way that they sort
of communicate about stuff and you're
like, "Wow, like that's a that's a
firework of a of a of a world that's
going on there." Or they're very um uh
unforgiving, uncompromising in the way
that they talk about things.
>> Almost always people who have been very
heavily attacked.
>> Yeah.
Rightly or wrongly, you know, Trump
became more Trump because of how much
people were pushing back against him.
Tate became more Tate because of how
much people were pushing back against
him. Hassan Paher became more Hassan Per
because of how many people were pushing
back against him. This happens to
everybody.
>> I don't see the same thing being true
for people that are just regularly
complimented and don't get haters. Yeah.
>> So, I do think that it it causes people
to react in a way where they dig their
heels in and they become more spiky
about their beliefs.
>> Yeah. I could see that. I I also I it
one of the things that I've grown to
appreciate over the years is that and
and I really I really learned this being
around Will Smith when I was working on
his book and kind of in his orbit, some
of the other like very famous people in
his orbit
>> like there's a certain amount of skill
or personality that is well suited for
fame and and I think it's
some people's some people just naturally
respond very poorly to a lot of
attention and a lot of fame and some
people naturally respond very well and
they function very well with it
>> and
um and it just and this is not a knock
on him I he just from an I don't know
him very well I've only met him a couple
times But like just as an outside
observer, he just strikes me as somebody
who like it it was not it did not do him
any favors. And um and it was pro it was
so much and it was so like intense and
it was so critical um that it it's I I
sympathize a lot for what he probably
went through. I think about people who
have the skill to become famous but not
the disposition to deal with the fame.
>> Yes. Uh Luis Kapaldi is a phenomenal
example of this. So writes his first
album, billions of streams, global tour,
needs to write a second one, gets put
under so much pressure that he gives
himself a Tourett style tick where his
anxiety has pushed his body beyond a
limit that it was able to cope with.
Then he steps out on stage at the O2 or
and Glastonbury I think and is under so
much internal pressure that he can't get
the words out
>> and he can't sing and and then goes away
completely goes away and then comes back
maybe a year or two years later
mainstage of Glastonbury again and plays
a new song which is all about his
desire. He says uh uh I swear to God
I'll survive even if it kills me this
time.
>> And just like looking healthy, super
regulated, but there is a world of
people who are good enough to achieve
fame
>> but just straight up don't have the
disposition to be able to cope with it.
And that's a a ruthless position to be
in because the thing that you want is in
your hands.
>> Yes. And kind of through no choice of
your own, there's another thing almost
everybody wants to be successful but
doesn't have the talent.
>> Yeah.
>> And there are a very small bucket of
people that get to become successful and
of them there's a proportion who can
become successful but for some reason
just self-destruct.
>> Yeah.
>> Detonate this thing that they've worked
their entire lives to try and get.
That's like no one's going to give them
sympathy. Velvet [ __ ] prison
champagne problem. It's a unique kind of
pain to get to the top of the mountain
and find that you threw yourself off.
>> Well, in that that that throwing off
like I mean it can be catastrophic. I
mean if you look at what he's gone
through the last few years or if you
just classic celebrity stories, right?
You know Kurt Cobain or Amy Winehouse or
like
>> Pete Diddy.
>> Yeah. Pet [laughter]
got you.
>> Yes. Yes. That is one way to
self-destruct. Uh but it it's
you know you can see it play out in a
lot of different ways. The other thing
that like I really grew to appreciate
being around Will is like there there's
a system systemization
of fame like you him and his team had
like they had guard rails built around
him. They had uh you know they had
systems of like
>> here's how you deal with unruly fans in
a way that like doesn't upset anybody.
here's how you like guarantee his
privacy in certain places without like
disturbing his weekend, you know? Here's
how you make sure he gets enough time to
like rehearse and, you know, learn his
scripts. Like they they had they had
protocols for all of this stuff that it
was literally just protocols to maintain
his ability to function. There's a
middle area of fame. I I haven't been
exposed to I've only ever been exposed
to one or two people that have got that.
Becoming friends with someone right now
who basically lives with a team of SAS
guys 24 hours a day
>> to keep him on the straight and narrow
so that he can continue to produce the
things that he needs to produce. But
there's a very small number of people
that have that
>> and a very large number of people that
would really benefit from that that I
know of who are in sort of the middling
level of fame where it can disrupt your
life and get in the way of your
relationships and hurt you and stuff,
>> but no one's handed them the pamphlet or
the playbook to be able to deal with it.
And dude, it's introducing friction back
into back into your life, right? Because
that's what happens when you achieve
this insane level of success and fame is
like it removes all the barriers and
guardrails. Now you have all the money
to do whatever you want. You have all
the people who are going to say yes to
whatever you want.
>> And so the only way to like stay
functional is to like intentionally
reintroduce
limitations. Those limitations the the
friction. Yeah. Yeah. This is similar to
one of yours. You only envy the lives of
people whose sacrifices you can't see.
[laughter]
Yeah. Yeah. [sighs and gasps]
Um
I mean it's it's easy it's easy to just
want the benefits of something. Like
it's it's so
it's the default, right? Like it's
almost childish to just want the
benefits of something. Um it's it's a
very naive way of seeing the world. And
I think
it's
not only is it important to
want the cost of something, check and
make sure you want the cost of something
before you actually start pursuing it.
But again, it comes back to like
that's the part that makes it
meaningful,
>> right? If you just got the benefits of
things, you would never appreciate those
things. Mhm. It's the fact that you like
struggled and sacrificed and crawled
through [ __ ]
Isn't that a wonderful duality? You only
envy the lives of people whose
sacrifices you can't see. So, if you
could see the cost that somebody had to
pay in order to get to where they are.
You probably wouldn't want the life, but
if you were able to get to the place
that they got to without the sacrifices,
>> you wouldn't appreciate it.
>> Bingo. It it's the it's the Elon quote
you mentioned earlier, right? It's like
you don't want you wouldn't like to be
me.
>> My mind's a storm. People think they
want to be me. They don't want to be me.
>> Yeah. There's a line from James Clear
that plays off this which this is one of
the best things that I read over the
last few years. It doesn't make sense to
continue wanting something if you're not
willing to do what it takes to get it.
If you don't want to live the lifestyle,
then release yourself from the desire.
To crave the result, but not the process
is to guarantee disappointment.
[ __ ] money. It's such money because
how many people want something, but
George Max's got this idea that the
difference between Call of Duty and war.
He says a lot of the time people think
that they would love to play Call of
Duty all the time, but that's not what
war is. War is the smell of burnt
gunpowder and your friend getting his
leg blown off,
>> right?
>> And you want to become a musician. You
want to become a world famous guitarist.
You go, "Okay, what does that look like?
You're gonna have to learn to play
guitar for a decade to no one. And then
if and when you start a band, you're
gonna be playing also to no one with no
promise of whether or not this is going
to work.
>> Let me cut you off there because that
was my life. So So no, the real that's
>> as an unfamously unsuccessful musician.
>> Yes. As a failed musician, let me tell
you that that what you just described is
that's still like the most fun 5% of it.
Like the 95% of it is you're sitting in
a room by yourself practicing. Yeah.
>> And there's no applause. There's nobody
watching. There's nobody.
>> It's frustrating and difficult.
>> You're playing the same song literally
hundreds of times.
>> And it's the the the thing in music that
they they always say is is that you're
not practicing until you get it right.
You're practicing until it's impossible
to get wrong.
>> So it is, you know, if it takes a 100
repetitions to get it right, you need to
get to a thousand to never get it wrong.
And it is so monotonous and tedious and
just like absolutely soul destroying
unless unless you love it, unless you
just genuinely can't imagine living
without it.
>> Um
so yeah. Well, that's the your line
about um what sort of pain do you want
in your life?
>> Yes.
>> Every pursuit worth having comes with
some degree of pain and struggle and
sacrifice. So choose what flavor of
chips sandwich you want to eat.
>> Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's uh it's
funny on the
the idea of the the really unsexy stuff
that becomes sexy when reflected in the
glory of you standing on stage and doing
something really cool. But if you don't
want to do something, if you genuinely
don't want to do something, it's almost
impossible for you to get yourself to do
it. And that's the it doesn't make sense
to continue wanting something if you're
not willing to do what it takes to get
it. or not even willing to do, like
wants to do ideally because you can be
willing to do something, but the amount
of willpower that it's going to take in
order to get you through that is
>> [ __ ] uns insurmountable. And also,
it's going to detract away from all of
the other things that you should do in
your life. Now, it's unfortunate that
some people never get an obsession
that's worth anything. I was thinking
about this a lot
>> that
>> I would call myself, you know, there's
that term serial monogamist. Mhm.
>> Uh I I would call myself a serial
obsessive
>> that around about every 7 years or so I
get a new obsession and it was cricket
from the age of 10 until 18. Then it was
club promo from 18 until 25 26 27 and
then it was personal development until
early 30s and then it's been the podcast
from then until now.
And that's cool because all of those
obsessions largely have not been that
destructive and maybe have even been
beneficial to me and the world except
for the cricket. I will stand my ground
with that. [laughter] You're a [ __ ]
philistine.
>> You're an uncultured American
philistine.
>> Okay.
>> Okay. It's it's
>> and anything that is in America is
derivative of something that happened in
Britain.
>> It's more boring baseball. And
considering how boring baseball is,
>> I disagree. [laughter]
I disagree. It's a sport that's only
played when the weather's good.
>> Okay.
>> It lasts for 5 days and sometimes ends
in a draw. It's almost
>> Jesus Christ.
>> It's almost mandatory to drink.
>> This sounds like a circle of hell.
>> No, it's not. It's It's [laughter]
England.
>> Okay.
>> Which is a circle of hell.
>> No, no, no. That's incorrect. That's
incorrect. That's highly that's highly
that's highly offensive.
>> I love England. I Good, good, good,
good. Uh, here's 10 years of therapy
summarized in one minute. Number one, no
one is coming to save you. Being a
functioning adult means realizing you
are responsible for everything in your
life, even if it wasn't your fault.
Number two, strong boundaries make for
good relationships. Weak boundaries make
drama. Number three, many of your
problems don't get fixed. You just learn
how to live despite them. Number four,
your mind lies to you all the time. It
will tell you that the world is ending
when it's not, that a mistake is fatal
when it's not, that everyone is thinking
about you and laughing about you when
they're not. Learn how to tell your mind
to shut the [ __ ] up. Number five, stop
trying to convince people to like you.
The right people won't need to be
convinced and everyone else is just
going to get very annoyed. Number six,
sometimes the best thing you can do is
let a dream die. No one likes to hear
that, but it's true. And number seven,
only a few people in your life are going
to matter in the long run. When you find
them, treat them right. Make time for
them. Keep them close. Be grateful.
you know, is sometimes when I when I put
together stuff like that, I I I'm
like hearing you read that back to me,
like the the thought that comes to mind
is like, how is this not taught in
schools? Like, how [laughter]
how are we just how is this not just
>> discover this at 34,
>> right? Like [laughter] why why do people
have to listen to podcasts all day to
like hear some of this stuff? Um I I
it just seems so fundamental, you know,
but it it is interesting. One of the
things one of the things that
my perspective has shifted, you know,
I've been doing this for 17 years.
>> Too long. Yeah. A lot. Yeah. A long
time. Um,
and when I look at at things that I've
I've either changed my mind about or
changed my perspective on through over
the course of my career, I think one of
the big ones is that, you know, early in
my career, I I I really thought it was
all about just like ideas, information,
knowledge, right? It's like finding
there's like a few pieces of key
knowledge that if you can kind of figure
it out, if you can dig through enough
psych studies and find the application,
like it's just going to be a key that
unlocks all these areas of your life.
And I think if you are a consumer of
personal growth advice, like that the
experience you have often feels that
way.
>> But I don't think that's true. I think
actually what is true is that there are
just certain concepts, ideas,
um, principles that are
pretty obvious and we all kind of
already know them, but we we lose it's
it's extremely difficult to keep them in
front of our face y
>> through day-to-day life. And so we need
we need rituals and reminders
consistently.
And I actually think that for most of
human history, I think religion was that
mechanism of those reminders to like
keep people like, hey, nobody like
you're responsible for this. Hey, treat
people well. That person matters, you
know, like let go of the the small
stuff.
>> Um,
but I think in in our modern our modern
world, you know, it's people most people
are losing that. And so you're you're
almost seeing this like reinvention of
those rituals
online through like what you and I do
through podcast and Instagram and
YouTube and all this stuff
>> of and and I do it as well, right? It's
like I've got my shows and and I've got
the channels I follow and the people I
follow and it's like they
it's it's not that any individual piece
of information is like changing my life,
unlocking this whole area of my life.
It's just like, oh yeah, it's a good
reminder.
>> That's so true. I think because the
modern world is filled with novelty,
anything that we've seen before, we
don't usually want to hear again. You
think, well, I already know that. Even
if you don't, even if there's 10 things
that you basically just need to hear
over and over again.
What you need to do, I think, is play
the game of novelty whilst just
redelivering the same core message. Yes.
And that's going to be anti-mimetic and
wholly unimpressive to people. This is
the [ __ ] clean your room thing again.
This is the tell the truth thing again.
Oh, neediness is it? And you go, okay,
well, I can
lie to you and create this sort of
fugazi gaslight thing where I say this
new thing is the big unlock,
>> right?
>> Or I can just try to repackage stuff
that is the existing concept. So it
satisfies your desire for novelty and my
own desire for novelty whilst
reinforcing the principle that is most
accurate. And that's really I think what
a lot of the game is now. And we we were
talking before we got started. I think
that very very dense information like
consumption and overoptimization is kind
of dead in the water. And
the alternative is
reminding people stuff that they already
know in a manner that just you know how
the Ebing house forgetting curve works
like it's space repetition. It's why
hanky flashards and stuff work like
that.
>> Um
>> basically you need that but with novelty
added in so that people are just
regularly reminded.
>> Oh yeah I I just need to like go for a
walk and sleep more.
>> Yeah.
>> Oh right. Yeah. I just I
probably need to say how I feel to my
partner when something upsets me.
>> I I've started one way I think about it
sometimes is that a lot of this advice
it's almost like having a fire
extinguisher in the room,
>> you know, like it's it's you've probably
had the experience where you know maybe
you read something
five years ago and you're like, "Yeah,
it's obvious. I I I know that." And then
something happens in your life, right?
It's like you get dumped or like
somebody dies or you move across the
world and you're like suddenly you're
like, "Oh my god, I need this so badly."
>> I did [laughter] that.
>> Well, one of the most embarrassing
things is to realize that the problem
you're facing was solved by something
that you learned long ago.
>> Yes.
>> But didn't appreciate
>> and Yeah. And then [laughter] and then
have to now go and relearn. You're like,
"Fuck." Or that you're now facing a
problem that you faced in the past and
that you not only learn something but a
specific type of pain that both me and
you do. go. Oh, I wrote about this. I
[ __ ] wrote this thing,
>> dude. Tell me about it. Tell me about
it.
>> Yeah. [laughter]
>> Yeah.
>> So, I I had uh speaking of like, you
know, ascending the mountain and
struggling to deal with fame, you know,
when my book took took off, um you know,
I went into a real identity crisis. I
think I've talked to you about this
before on the show, but you know, I had
that that first year or two when my book
was number one everywhere. It was like
just all these crazy things happening.
Um, I felt super disoriented and like
very lost and kind of went through a
little bit of a depression. Became like
>> I got everything I ever wanted and it
made me depressed.
>> Yeah, pretty much. And like massive
imposttor syndrome for for a period of
time and started started saying yes to a
bunch of things I didn't want to say yes
to. Right. And so then I ended up in
this situation where I'm like I feel
trapped in my own career. I'm like
obligated to do all these things for
these people that I don't really want to
be doing. Um, I'm like stressed all the
time. I'm anxious. My health's going to
[ __ ] And and it's
>> and I'm fat.
>> And I'm fat on top of everything else.
[laughter]
Uh,
>> that add insult to injury.
>> [ __ ] fat. And uh, [laughter]
[gasps]
and it's [snorts] so funny cuz I I
remember um when I was doing my film um,
you know, it was that we were doing a
film on the subtle not giving a [ __ ] I
hadn't really read the book since I
wrote it. And um [laughter] so I went
back. I'm like, "Well, I should probably
read my book again." So I went back and
I read, this is like 2018, 2019. I went
back and it was like all the [ __ ] I just
I've been spending the last two years
dealing with. It was like in my own
book. And I'm like, I'm I'm [ __ ] all
of this up. I'm like, I'm saying yes to
things that I don't care about. I'm like
overloading my life with all these
distractions. I'm like not standing up
for myself. I've like lost clarity on
what I value. like just like chapter by
chapter by chapter. I'm choosing the
wrong struggles and I I just I
>> it was rough. It was really rough. I
like I I had to really have like a a
heartto-heart with myself of like dude
who get it together.
>> Yeah. It's like [laughter] it's like
personal growth groundhog day. But uh
one thing that I think is is kind of
important I I understand how you can say
hey look there's a small bucket of
principles over optimization thinking
about your life too much all of these
things like they you're majoring in the
minors etc etc.
>> Mhm.
>> That is true once you've been through
it.
>> Yes. It is not true before you've been
through it. Breaking the rules of the
game before you've learned how to play
the game is not breaking the rules of
the game and being an innovator or being
some essentialized distiller of cool
stuff.
>> It's playing a different game. And this
is why I highly recommend that people
become totally obsessed with personal
development and productivity and David
Allen's Getting Things Done and James
Clear's Atomic Habits and Morgan House
of Psychology of Money and The Subtle
Art of Not Giving a [ __ ] for like
probably between
three and six years. And then once
you've done that, you can sort of get
your black belt, put it on, and go,
"Okay, yeah, 95% of that was packaging.
Here are the bits that really matter,
and I'm now going to spend the rest of
time trying to just maintain that
momentum and not over complicate stuff."
And maybe once a year there'll be a
novel insight which is genuinely
principled and fundamental that I just
didn't know yet. But you can't get to
that level without having gone through
the first bit. And maybe it's just the
case that the world of everybody went
through the same holy [ __ ] like this is
novel. But talking about like choosing
your struggles appropriately or even
neediness and stuff like that. That was
novel when it happened. But that area of
cognitive real estate, that territory's
now been, you know, when you play a a
video game and the map's all fogged out.
>> Yeah. And then after you've played it
for a while, the areas get opened up.
It's like, well, that area is opened up
now. So assuming that you've gone
through this process. Previously, it was
kind of like um uh humans were moving at
the same level that technology
developed.
>> Yeah.
>> But if you start doing personal
development now, there's so much
technology that you can speedrun all the
way up to the top. Whereas for us, it's
like, wow, telling the truth is
something this is revolutionary. Not
that I've just discovered it, but it's
just been said.
>> Yeah.
>> Right. This is this is groundbreaking
research, but because there's so much to
go through and maybe it's just the case
that the era that we're in had a
formative hockey curve like J-shaped
thing where wow, there's a [ __ ] ton
of insight that's repackaged ancient
wisdom for a secular world that's
distilled down into good language that's
memorable.
>> I should I'm learning this as it goes
and a new book and a new book and a new
book. And now we're at the stage where
much of that territory that's important
has been captured.
>> Yes. And now because everybody kind of
started the race, whether you were 18 or
28 or 48, everybody started it kind of
at the same time and Peterson comes
along and you and James D and you go,
"Oh, wow." Like that's that's now all
been done. So everybody has a degree of
personal development fatigue, but that's
not true if you're starting your
journey. be like, "Hey, I'm I'm a fat
piece of [ __ ] and I'm 25 and I've never
done any of this." It's like lock in for
the next six years, dude.
>> Yes, absolutely. And then and then it is
>> very much after that is it is just about
maintaining the practice,
>> right?
>> Um
it is like to nerd out a little bit on
kind of the history of this because I I
do think this is interesting, right?
It's it is
we do live in a very unique moment in
the fact that this information is so
diffuse,
universally available, completely free.
Like it it when I was growing up,
>> you had to go pay Tony Robbins $10,000
to hear any of this, right? You had to
go you had to join a graduate program at
Cornell and like study psychology for
three years to hear any of this, right?
So there was like massive gatekeepers.
>> Not democratized. democratized at all.
Extremely like marketed extremely
aggressively um and and like very very
>> predatory in some circumstances.
>> Yeah. With another podcast for another
day. But it it the internet is what
opened up the opportunity for this kind
of diffusion of all this information
across the entire population. And I
think when I look at kind of my
generation, you know, me, James, Ryan,
um, and a bunch of others, like really
what we were doing is we were taking the
stuff that used to only be available
behind closed doors or in really
exclusive seminars or, you know, deep in
academic research and then we were
repackaging it for a wider internet
audience. And I think through the 2010s
that was a pretty novel and important
function that was being played in within
society is but now we're at the point
where like you can literally just get on
Instagram and see
>> 800 pieces of the same advice
>> any day of the week that you want and
it's all free and it's all like widely
available and it's all repeated to
death. Um, and so it does raise an
interesting point of like
I I do think that saturation of
information for people
>> is probably like you said it it it's
it's being speeded speedrun.
>> Yes. speed ran speed um speed ran at
this point, you know, whereas like 15
years ago you would have to spend years
and years like really digging deep into
books and and studies and research, now
you can probably get the gist of that
within a year or two. And so it really
does make
the implementation aspect of it, I
think, more important than ever before.
But there's not
>> that's not generalizable, right? you
[clears throat] know, sort of like
that's that's where the rub is now. So I
I in many ways I feel it's like a very
weird time.
>> It is. It is. It's it's certainly a
transition and it's this idea of
something that's anti-mimetic.
>> Mhm.
>> Not just something that isn't mimemetic,
not something that won't spread, but
something that is actively pushed back
against and not spread or maybe even
criticized to the point where it sort of
shrinks. Um and unfortunately telling
people the new information isn't better
necessarily. uh or at least not at the
speed that perhaps it used to be. The
market's slowed down. It might be a way
to think about it. Uh doesn't sound very
good because if you've got a problem,
you want to believe that there's a
solution. But if there's a solution
that's already out there, the reason
that you haven't fixed your problem is
your fault. As opposed to, oh, this new
thing that's novel, that's what we've
got this massive recency bias around it.
And um
>> yeah, it is there's a there's a
definitely a transition period going on.
And that's why I think your solved
podcast series is [ __ ] great. That's
different because it is so in-depth.
Whether you want to learn about fear or
relationships or whatever, it is so
in-depth that that's not been done
before. Um, some of the stuff that I've
got coming up with different guests sat
around a table is it's not been done
before. Okay, that's unique and at least
novel, genuinely novel. And the insights
that have come out of it novel, but for
the most part, if it's and this is going
to get worse. Yes. with AI, it's going
to get significantly worse. However bad
and repetitive and sloppy you think that
your least favorite optimization
obsessed influencer of choice has been.
Imagine that powered by [ __ ] infinite
robot army.
>> Yeah, that's coming. Yeah. And not to
mention a thousand copycats on Tik Tok
and Instagram, right? So it's it's just
like anything that gets any traction is
just going to be pared thousands and
thousands of times.
>> Already derivative, but now it's
derivative at scale powered by AI.
>> Yes. Um so I I actually think we're
going to
reenter, speaking of being bullish and
bearish.
>> Mh.
>> Um I actually think I I'm like bullish
on authority and credibility over the
next 10 years. Um, I think there's going
to be a a a mass return towards because
I I just think there's going to be so
much slop out there and especially in in
in this market like there's just going
to be so much crap being espoused by
like random stick figures and [ __ ] on
YouTube like that people are going to
lose patience very quickly and they're
going to crave like please just show me
somebody who like actually knows what
they're talking about or has actually
done something. Um,
and so it's it's actually kind of ironic
because it's I think the the the great
explosion in the dissemination of this
of this information to people 1015 years
ago it was kind of the the destruction
of like credibility
>> will be its downfall,
>> right? Yeah. Well, credibility doesn't
matter anymore, right? It's like if
you've got a good idea, you can just
write a blog post and everybody can read
it, you know? And like that was great
back then, but now it's it's been taken
to such an extreme that there's going to
be like this incredible demand for
authority and credibility. I think
there's almost certainly going to be a
pedestalization of legacy media,
mainstream media. I think that if you
get placed on 60 Minutes or
the new Dr. Phil or whatever, whatever
the next version of that is.
>> Yeah.
>> Because anybody can do YouTube. What
What are you grinning about,
>> dude? I got a crazy story for you. So,
[laughter] so yes, I agree and and like
this is already happening. So, so you
mentioned it earlier. I I started an AI
company last year. It's an AI personal
growth coach. It's called Purpose. You
can everybody go check it out. It's
cool.
>> Check it out. Um
>> so, when we we launched in December and
we hired a a PR agency um to go get a
bunch of publicity and like conventional
media, you know, put the logos on the
website, all that [ __ ] And dude, it was
so funny. Um, so the publicists, they
go, they get all these like, you know,
interviews with big newspapers. I'm not
going to call, I'm not going to name
check anybody. Um, big newspapers.
Newspapers everybody would uh has heard
of TV stations, radio stations, like all
traditional stuff, very prestigious, you
know, we're trying to get the logos.
So, I go and I do these interviews with
like quote unquote like prestigious
journalists and we talk about the app
for like 10 minutes or whatever and you
can tell that like they don't give two
shits. Like it's just, you know, they've
got some generic article that they're
doing about like AI products or
whatever, and they're just going to drop
a quote from me in it and and mention
mention the product. And so a very like
half-ass 10-minute conversation
and I and and we wrap up very quickly
and I'm like, "Okay, well, this was very
fast." And then the journalist would be
like, "Well, wait, while I've got you
here." So, I'm working on a book right
now. And I was wondering if um if I
could run some ideas by you. This
happened three times. three times that
bas so basically what happened was the
journalists understanding their position
which is prestige media
>> this guy needs a logo for his website
you know cuz it's
>> I'm the logo
>> right I'm the logo I'm working on a book
this guy's a huge bestselling author
>> prestige for expertise trade
>> let's barter
>> [ __ ] dude
>> so most of those calls was me giving
career advice [laughter]
in exchange for a quote in their [ __ ]
newspaper.
>> I would have just said I would have just
said to all of them once they once
they've done it, it's like I think your
idea is [ __ ] I'm sorry. I [laughter]
think your I I think your idea sucks.
>> Nobody's going to read this. Give up.
>> I highly I highly re I highly [laughter]
recommend that you don't do it and just
leave them all dejected.
>> Oh, man. It was It was crazy. It's It's
a weird world, man.
>> Sorry to interrupt your scrolling, but
this is a friendly reminder that your
time on this earth is extremely limited
and everyone you love is going to die
one day. So maybe you should put the
[ __ ] phone away and go and do
something meaningful.
[gasps] Dude, that the death salience
thing is just it's it's it's magical,
isn't it? Isn't the momento my like it's
just so magical? And and especially like
I guess with like you know the doom
scrolling kids these days like it is um
it it's such an important practice I
think to just like take that moment not
every day but like periodically of like
is this if I were to die soon is this
what I would want to be doing? you know,
if when I'm 80, am I going to look back
and be proud of what I'm doing? Um,
and it's that that's one of those things
I'm glad how mimemetic that is. It's
>> cuz I remember I I remember so in subtle
art, the last chapter is called And Then
You Die. And I remember my my publisher
was like, you know, this is kind of
dark. Are you sure? You know, publisher
thing
>> supposed to finish it on an upnote.
>> Yeah, exactly. um you'd be all inspiring
and and everything. Um but I felt really
strongly about it cuz it's just like the
the kind of being confronted with death
had been like so impactful in my life.
Um and it it was a big part of stoic
philosophy, Buddhist philosophy, a bunch
of different philosophies. Um
that's one thing that I never expected
to be mimedic, but it is incredibly
mimedic and it is. I'm like thrilled
with how much traction that gets and and
that people do resonate with it and they
do find value in it and they do respond
to it and engage in it. Um
so yeah, I just I just think it's it's a
great practice. I'm glad that
people stop scrolling and think about
it. Yeah. I a few questions that I think
are useful. What do you regret from the
last year? Like what do you regret that
you did too much of and not enough of?
Typically, that's the same stuff that
you did for the last decade, but you
can't remember the last decade.
>> So, if you look at the last 12 months of
your life, what did you do too much of
and what did you do too little of? If
you wanted to make 85year-old you as
miserable as possible,
when they look back on their life, oh,
that would be easy. What would you what
would you do? What would you do more of?
What would you do less of? You know, I
mean, there's that famous uh five
regrets of the dying, right? Wish I'd
allowed myself to be happy. I wish I
kept in touch with my friends more. Uh,
I wish I hadn't worked so much. We are
maybe just about to breach the first
wave of people who are had a good chunk
of their life spent on their smartphone
and on devices who are about to die.
It has to be number one.
>> Yeah.
>> It has to be number one.
>> Yeah.
>> There's no way that I wish I'd spent
less time looking at a screen. like it
it just has to jump to the top of the
charts as soon as that wave of people
begin to die on mass
>> and it's still probably what like
smartphones been around 20 just under 20
years now. So
>> you 605
70 like it's still not it's still not
quite there.
>> Couple more decades.
>> Yeah. Yeah. One one more decade and
that's going to start. But within two
it's just going to be [ __ ]
>> I don't know man. I've seen some good
memes.
>> That's true.
>> Some really good memes.
>> That is true. But you've never been the
subject of them. That's fine. You have
the You have the optimal level of fame.
You have the optimal level of fame,
which is you can get a seat at a
restaurant that's very busy,
>> but for the most part, people aren't
going to make a meme about you on the
internet.
>> Yeah,
>> I think that's the way you should go.
All right, last one.
>> Yeah.
>> At some point, you realize that the
permission you've been waiting for all
along was your own.
>> Yeah. it.
I think so often
we seek advice when really all we want
is somebody to just tell us it's okay.
>> It's okay to want what we want. It's
okay to stop doing something, to change
our mind. Um to be wrong about
something.
Um
I don't I don't get it's it's
interesting. You know, back in the day,
I used to get a lot of emails, like fan
emails and stuff, people asking for
questions, for advice. Um, I still get
some, but it it is amazing how
many emails, messages, questions I get
that it it you could really just boil it
down to
this person feels bad about something
and just wants to be told it's okay,
>> to feel [clears throat] bad about it.
>> Mhm. and or this person wants to do
something, but they're afraid and they
just need somebody to say, "No, no, you
should do that."
>> Yeah,
>> that's it. That's all they want. They
don't need a a [ __ ] theory or
framework or, you know, a full like
breakdown of their childhood trauma.
They they just need somebody to say
like, "It's okay. You you should do
that.
>> It seems important to you."
>> Yeah. I think the world is kind of split
into two groups of people. people who
don't know how to improve their lives
and those who are too scared to start.
And
the first group doesn't care that
they're going to do what they do.
They're not going to overthink it. And
then there's another group that's
paralyzed by their capacity to think.
Obviously, there's people that manage to
overcome that. But almost anybody who is
thoughtful and making [ __ ] happen in the
world has had to overcome their
thoughtfulness. Like
>> the thoughtfulness is the fuel, but it's
also the barrier to getting there
because as we said right at the top,
like the degree of uncertainty that you
have is paralyzing. It keeps you in
place.
>> So yes, someone coming along and going,
"Hey man, like it's okay
to want that thing or it's okay to not
think that that thing's cool.
You should try and do that thing. You
just should and close the loop and
that's fine." Yeah, I describe myself as
having a lifestylewide praise kink,
which [laughter]
I respond well to encouragement. I
respond really [ __ ] well to
encouragement. And there's again,
there's two types of British people.
There's British people who thrive on
mutual piss taking. Yeah.
>> And there's British people that were
meant to be American people.
>> And I'm in the latter camp. You You're a
very enthusiastic country, right? You
basically you basically have permanent
firstline cocaine energy.
[laughter]
>> That's what that's it. I you know I want
to make enthusiasm great again and I
want to reexport it back to the UK.
>> Yeah.
>> Mega and that that that was just
something for me that was a pathway for
me. Hey, I happy to do the mutual piss
taking sat around a table with my boys.
But when it comes to really going for
stuff,
I much prefer to be around people that
are like, "Yeah, you got this. Go and
[ __ ] crush it." as opposed to gay.
Like [laughter]
the first one works for me. I've got
tons of friends that are back home who
they don't care. It just doesn't fact.
Pers Morgan had this conversation with
peers. He's like, "I like the piss
taking." I'm like, "Pers, that's because
you've got a galactic ego and you need
someone to keep your feet on the ground.
That's fine. That's good for you."
>> Those of us that are a little bit more
permanently unsure, for me it's good.
The encouragement thing is good and
that's very cringy in the UK.
>> Yeah. Do you export yourself to the US
where that's kind of that runs much more
in the the pioneer spirit? And I'm like,
huh, it's okay for me to want that. It's
okay for me to say that that's something
that I like. It was okay for me when I
was 27,
28 to go, I'm a club promoter who's
going to stop drinking,
>> right? Like that doesn't sound very
revolutionary in the world of Athletic
Brewing Co. NA Beers, NA beer,
[laughter] you know, Heinekenzero
[ __ ] Um,
>> but I mean in British culture as a club
promoter in 200 [ __ ] 16
>> sounds insane.
>> That was Yeah, that was me inventing
fire and
>> it
>> sometimes people can do stuff without
anybody telling them that it's okay. But
a lot of the time that's what people are
looking for. I'm worried about this
thing happening and I'm scared and and
someone I go, "It's all right, man. You
got this." Or maybe you don't, but
you'll be all right anyway. Like I'm
okay no matter what happens.
>> That too. I I tend to notice this as I
mean it's this is pretty proportional to
age, right? Like it's young people I
feel like need this reassurance all the
time. I feel like as you get older, you
just start realizing you're like nobody
knows what the [ __ ] they're doing and no
one was thinking about you anyway.
>> Yeah. Nobody Yeah, exactly. Nobody's
really gives a [ __ ] what you what what
you decide. Um,
it is it is interesting. You know, the
British culture thing, hearing you
describe it, it it just it feel to me as
an American, it feels like the epitome
of the I'd rather be right than happy.
>> Yeah.
>> It's um or maybe it's like I'd rather be
snarky than happy. Like it's well I' I'd
rather be snarky than cringy. And
cringey is being enthusiastic.
>> Because if you plant a flag in the
ground and say this is my position, you
create a criteria for success.
>> Which also means you create a criteria
for failure. Yeah. And that means that
if someone can snipe away at it, they
can make you fail. But also that if you
succeed, you leave them behind. There's
this wonderful difference between
American people and British people.
American people hope that you succeed in
case you take them with you. And British
people hope that you fail, in case you
leave them behind.
>> And I wish it wasn't true. And it's not
for everyone.
>> Yeah.
>> But many of the people like the UK had
the second highest millionaire exits in
2024 behind [clears throat] China. But
China's got like 13 times the population
or something. It's insane how much
bigger it is. So per capita, we lost the
most millionaires by multiples. Why?
It's not a very welcoming environment
for people that want to do different
things, that want to be innovative, that
don't want to sort of follow that path.
It doesn't mean matter about whether or
not you want to be a [ __ ] millionaire
or not, but if you want to make a change
to your lifestyle or the way that you
look or the things that you think or the
culture that you're embedded in or the
way that you raise your kids or
whatever, it's just not that welcoming.
And that's why we have the same number
of universities in the top 10 globally,
but American universities produce five
times more entrepreneurs than British
universities do. And remember that we
have an international [ __ ] cohort.
Yeah. So, people come, get contorted by
the culture, and then leave with this
veneer, this sort of varnish that's got
on top of them.
>> But yeah, it's a it's an interesting
one, dude. Look, I I appreciate the [ __ ]
out of you. It's it's fascinating to
watch this whatever we're in some
renaissance. I don't know whether it's a
renaissance or a dark ages. um
[laughter]
that's that's happening. But there's
something
there's something sort of twisting and
changing in this world, personal growth,
personal development, and I really
[ __ ] appreciate that you're there
helping to steward it in whatever way
you can. It's really cool.
>> Same, man. Same.
>> Um
>> cool. Thank you.
>> What's where people go?
>> Uh markmanson.net, Solve Podcast, and uh
purpose.app. Free 7-day trial. Check it
out.
>> Mark Manson in your pocket, but without
the touchy failey thing.
>> Yeah. So it's it's an AI that's that's
optimized to challenge you. Um so it's
>> call call you out on your [ __ ] spot
blind spots, challenge your assumptions.
Um basically all the things like a good
coach would do
>> to help you grow instead of just, you
know, kiss your ass, make you feel good.
>> Unreal. Appreciate you, man. Until next
time.
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