Why is it the case that having this
conversation is so unpopular on the
internet and immediately gets thrown the
right-wing conservative
misogyny, the fascism? Why do those
arguments get thrown around so quickly?
I think people understand correctly that
there can be there certainly can be and
often in fact there is a tension between
sustainable fertility rates and the
gender egalitarianism that I think most
of us cherish, right? that like I'm I'm
not like a radical left feminist, but
like I do want my wife to be able to
vote and own property and have the right
to like the police hear her out if I'm
beating her or something like I'm, you
know, like little egalitarian
in that sense. Um, and a lot of people
fear very sincerely. They say, "Well, I
would I do worry about low fertility,
but I would never say so publicly
because,
you know, I stand with women and the
pronatalists want to force women to stay
barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen."
Um, and and I I mean, I'm sympathetic to
that and and unfortunately some
varieties of pronatalism have tended to
play into that. Um, the reality is and
and there's and there's genuine tension.
I mean, it is true that a lot of the
most sexist countries in the world have
the highest birth rates. It is true that
within society, people with more
traditional gender attitudes have higher
birth rates. Um, these are all true
things. There's real tension between
certain gender models and high
fertility. Now, does it have to be
intrinsic tension? Can we find a way
through it to the other side? I hope so.
And I think that's what what you all
talked about as well is that you want
your progressive friends to be having
kids so that their values can survive in
the future, too. Um, and so I think
there's a lot of people who feel rightly
or wrongly feel trapped between two
things they want. Okay? They they don't
love the idea of a low fertility future,
but they also feel like they don't have
an option other than to like, well, if a
low fertility future is the only way to
protect the fact that like I'm a woman
and I basically want to have rights,
then like screw fertility, who cares? um
or you know trust that it'll get solved
somehow and just don't think about it.
So and and I think on some level
pronatalists have not always done a
great job and I probably count myself in
this to some extent of
uh of trying to communicate that um yes
right now feminism broadly construed is
pretty strongly negatively correlated
with fertility. it is on almost any
metric.
But we don't know that it has to be. We
don't know that there's not a future
version of feminism that's pronatal. We
don't know that such an ide ideology
couldn't be invented. The problem is
most of the people who selfident
identify as feminists won't even try. So
they won't even try to come up with a
version of the ideology that's pronatal.
So uh and there are people are like uh
uh Leia Sergeant has a great book on
this um where she's trying um but uh um
so I I would say I I agree with what a
lot of you're saying, but I'm a little
I'm a little more sympathetic to people
who feel between a rock and a hard
place.
>> Well, I think the other the other point
here is that it's obvious what you need
to give up now and it's not obvious what
the costs will be in future.
>> Sure. And and for the most part, you're
not going to pay them, right? And if
you're not intending on having kids or
if fewer people around you are intending
on having kids, then you're not even
attached to people who might be having
to pay them. So it's having to give up
something that you want in order for
something that you're being told that
future people need. We're not good in a
society at doing that at the moment at
the the old staving off of the delay
gratification. you really value gender
egalitarianism and then you have
daughters and then you learn that the
future is going to be one where like all
the crazy far-right people had all the
babies and they're going to outvote you
and now your daughters live out
Handmaid's Tale. Okay, like this as
silly as that sounds to like my rational
brain. I personally know people who
really think that's what's going to
happen that any kid they have is just
going to be like governed by zealots.
And so they're like, "Well, I don't want
that for my kid. I'm not going to have
them." Yeah, but if feminists stop
having kids, there will be no feminists
left.
>> This is why I'm like, be the change you
wish. You can prevent forest.
>> This is the gap. The mean change uh the
mean children by ideology. Conservatives
at 1.67,
which has actually gone up since the
1980s.
>> Yeah.
>> And liberals from 1.29, which was nearly
the same, 1.44 to 1.290,
conservative to liberal, to now 1.67
to87.
It seems to be the case from well put
together surveys that let's say 90%ish
of people at some point in life either
have or want kids.
>> Yeah,
>> that's not all rightwingers. 90% is
pretty much everybody. And I think the
issue here is that the left have found
it more challenging because of the
frictions
>> uh with some of their traditional
beliefs to come up with a narrative here
that enables them to come up with some
form of voice. And I think people on the
right uh and I will say also I'm not
proatalist that surprises a lot of
people. I'm a researcher. I call myself
panatalist.
And a panatalist is someone uh who
supports people to have the kids they
want to have, but also respects people
who choose not to.
>> Oh, we do too. That's great.
>> Okay. I palis call that pronatalism, but
>> no, we only want people who like kids to
have kids.
>> I I think pronatalism to me is
interpreted rightly or wrongly as people
who would encourage
others to have kids. And I would
encourage people to think about it. I
don't know if that's
>> that is a fetish on the left. That is
all these women being like, "Oh, Mr.
Trump, don't send me to the Marago
breeding pens. Why are they wearing
those Handmaid's Tail costumes?" Cuz it
is, it's hot. When you look at what
women read in romance novels, don't
breed me, sir. This is It's not real. No
one is asking progressive women to have
kids. When you look at like faright
conservative men who are marrying women,
they're marrying women from Latin
America. They're marrying women from
Eastern Europe. They are not wearing pro
marrying progressive white women.
There's that return to land uh colony in
the Ozarks. It's for whites only. And
they have to keep saying to the men,
sorry, like you have to actually marry a
white woman if you want to come here.
And they can't get any men who are
far-right conservative white
nationalists who have married white
women because they're they're not there.
I I'm just saying this is fake. This
whole like prenatalism, we want you to
have kids. No, don't have kids. If you
want kids, have them, but otherwise you
can just not inherit the future. All
right? because they they've screwed it.
They've screwed it. This is a toxic
culture. We have to wash our hands of
it. We have to take through the stars
and leave them behind. That's it.
>> So, I think it I so I would what you
call panatalism. Yeah. I would that's
how I would describe pronatalism. Okay.
I don't think pronatalism means forcing
people to have unwanted children. I
think it means um pronatalism pro
meaning in favor of natal meaning
births. It means you're in favor of
births. In practice, I would say you're
a pronatalist if you support actually
doing things that helps people actually
have more kids.
>> I think the problem with that, Simone,
is that there's it's all well and good
kind of victim blaming people and saying
you believe in ideology that's
self-defeating because of your belief in
it. you have been sighed or gas lit into
not wanting something or
having a life that doesn't permit you to
have this thing despite the fact that
90% of women have or want kids. So, it
seems to me that I understand if you've
been in the trenches as you and your
husband have for a long time that you
go, "All right, I'm [ __ ] done. I
can't the the the project to like try
and change hearts and minds. I've kind
of lost faith in that. I get it. I
understand why you might be exhausted at
doing that. But that is condemning a
huge swath of women who are left of
center who and men. Yeah, of course. Who
because for each, you know, the two to
tango like
>> you are condemning those people to kind
of be at the mercy of an ideology that
you think is bad. And I don't know, I I
would like to think that we can try and
sort of stir the pot to bring some of
the silt up and go, hey, maybe what you
believe is good in many ways for the
world, but also perhaps it's got some
side effects that even the people that
are espousing it aren't going to embody.
Like these people are endorsing beliefs
that they don't embody, and they're
leaving you behind. And it would be
important to get you on site. One of the
things I worry about if you say like,
"Hey, if you're on the left and you
don't think that kids are good, go [ __ ]
yourself because my kids are going to
inherit the earth." Like, I get it. But
that's not actually what would be true
if you were to continue to try and do
the hearts and minds change thing. And
again, for every step that you take
forward, there's 10 people saying you're
trying to take rights away, force
handmade, etc., etc., etc. And I get why
that would be exhausting, but I think
trying to work out how to bring people
into this because if you really care
about birth rates overall, you should be
trying to get as big of a bucket as
possible to scoop everybody up in.
Before we continue, as you're probably
aware, I'm not a massive drinker, at
least not anymore. But even if you too
are not drinking, sometimes you just
want something cold, frosty, and tasty
without the fear of a hangover the next
day. Which is why I'm such a huge fan of
Athletic Brewing Co. Thank you very
much. Their non-alcoholic brews taste
just as good as the real thing. They've
got IPAs, Hazy Goldens. They're so good
that you'll forget that there's no
alcohol in them until you wake up the
next day feeling fantastic. It means
that you can enjoy the ritual without
the wreckage. No hangover, no 3:00 a.m.
panic, no wasted Sunday recovering from
Saturday. That is why I partnered with
them. You can find Athletic Brewing
Co.'s bestselling lineup at grocery or
liquor stores near you. Or best option,
you can get the full variety pack of
four flavors shipped right to your door
right now. Get up to 15% off your first
online order by going to the link in the
description below or heading to
athleticbwing.com/modernwisdom
using the code modernwisdom at checkout.
That's athleticbwing.com/modernwisdom
and modern wisdom at checkout. Near
beer, terms and conditions apply.
Athletic brewing company, fit for all
times. Congratulations, you made it to
the end of a clip and the full length
episode is available right here.