Social anxiety is something we really
can help people with. Essentially, the
strategy is very simple. If you are
afraid of talking with a stranger or
having a deep conversation, the way to
get over that is not to simulate it or
to imagine. It's not like you get up and
you you give a pretend speech. That's
what psychologists were doing for years.
It doesn't work because it's still
pretending. It has to be real. You send
people out in the world and to do the
thing for real. You're worried about
getting rejected. Go out and start
asking people for help and you'll learn
that your fear is misplaced, that you
get accepted more often than you might
guess. Exposing people to that thing
that they are anxious of. When the
belief is misplaced and with social
anxiety, it is usually wildly misplaced.
That's what we find over and over again
is a mistaken barrier to connecting with
other people. That's how you you ease
that social anxiety and get rid of it.
Not because you do you dull your anxiety
so much. It's because you change your
beliefs about what other people are
like. Welcome to the Hubberman Lab
podcast where we discuss science and
science-based tools for everyday life.
I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor
of neurobiology and opthalmology at
Stanford School of Medicine. My guest
today is Dr. Nick Epley. Dr. Nick Epley
is a behavioral scientist at the
University of Chicago and an expert
researcher on the science of social
connection. What's different about
today's conversation in the context of
social connection is that it doesn't
just center on improving relationships
with friends or family or co-workers. We
do talk about that, but we also talk
about the smaller everyday conversations
that we have with people that we don't
know so well and the positive impact
that that can have on mental and
physical health. Now, I want to be
clear. We're not talking about engaging
in small talk for small talk's sake.
We're talking about taking opportunities
to connect with people once or several
times per day and the tremendous
benefits that can have for people's
mental and physical health, including
yours. We also talk a lot about the
assumptions that we tend to make about
other people, both in real life and
online, and how those actually match up
with reality. We also talk about Nick
Epley himself because his life strongly
has informed his research. We talk about
his biological and his adopted children,
raising a child with additional needs,
and the incredible joy and growth those
choices have brought him and his family
by virtue of the sorts of social
connections that they've brought. I must
say, today's conversation went a lot of
places that I did not anticipate. And it
certainly inspired me to look
differently at everyday interactions as
far from trivial and in fact key to the
fabric of social connection and our
mental and physical health. Before we
begin, I'd like to emphasize that this
podcast is separate from my teaching and
research roles at Stanford. It is
however part of my desire and effort to
bring zero cost to consumer information
about science and science related tools
to the general public. In keeping with
that theme, today's episode does include
sponsors. And now for my discussion with
Dr. Nick Epley. Dr. Nick Epley, welcome.
>> Thank you so much for having me.
>> We make a lot of assumptions about other
people and in my case cuz I have a new
puppy about animals. You know, we're
always thinking that we know what other
beings are thinking.
>> Yeah.
>> But as you've pointed out and as a
colleague of mine in neurosciences, Dr.
Carl Dyeroth has pointed out, most of
the time we don't even know what we're
thinking.
>> Like there's stuff going on in there,
but like we're we're not that good at
thinking, oh, that last thought was a
complete sentence that means blank.
That's not how the human mind works.
>> So,
>> usually when we hear the word
anthropomorphism, we're talking about
humans making assumptions about other
animals. M
>> but humans are animals.
>> We just happen to be the curators of the
planet.
>> So why and how do we anthropomorphize
about other people and how does it hurt
us and how does it help us?
>> Yeah.
>> So I think the way to think about
anthropomorphism is that what we are
doing is we're trying to understand
what's going on within another agent
essentially. And so anything that acts
independently, right? You got a ball
rolling across the table. If something
else bumps into it and it moves in
perfect, you know, perfect deflection
off of it, you don't need anything to
explain why that ball moved as it did.
But if this ball is coming across the
table and another one hits it and it
just keeps going or goes some other
direction, well then it seems like
there's something going inside that
thing that might be driving it, right?
And that in that thing that's inside
that ball might be a mind, right? Might
be a set of thoughts or beliefs or
attitudes, some kind of psychology
that's pushing it. At least that's the
way we interpret what an independent
agent might be doing. We do this when we
think about other people, right? You're
nodding your head now. I think you're
thinking about something, right? You
move this way or that. You wanted to do
this thing or that thing. We do that
same kind of mind readading, right? With
non-human agents, animals, gods,
sometimes the planet, even ourselves,
right? We reflect on ourselves. We have
experience at least with having certain
mental states come to mind and we use
that experience as a guide to what's
going on in other people too. That kind
of anthropomorphism, that kind of mind
readading, right, where we infer others
thoughts or beliefs or attitudes, that's
helpful to us for at least two reasons.
One is it gives me some sense of why
you're doing what you're doing now. It
allows me to understand what you're
doing right now. Are you trying to be
kind? You're trying to be uh aggressive?
Are you trying to be friendly? But it
also is pretty good at allowing me to
predict what you're likely to do next.
>> So if I think you feel hungry, well,
you're going to go try to eat something.
If I think you don't like me very well,
you're going to behave a particular way
towards me. So this kind of mental state
inference, this kind of mind readading
serves us pretty well for getting around
in a social world. Um, don't always get
it right, but in general, it's better
than not doing it at all. So as we make
assumptions about others and their
intentions and their past
>> choices in some cases, right? Like if
somebody hits somebody else, we we make
an assumption about the certain things
might have led up to that.
>> Yes. Right.
>> Are we mainly paying attention to
behavior
>> and or are we paying attention to
what they seem to be paying attention
to? Soal theory of mind.
>> Yeah. So it depends a lot on what kind
of environment we're in. We think about
the minds of others in lots and lots of
different contexts. My wife right now is
back home in Illinois. I can think about
what she might want for dinner, right?
Or what she's feeling at any given time.
We can think about people when they're
not present. We can think about
strangers, people we know nothing about.
I write a book. I'm trying to think
about how will people understand this
book. Right? These are all cases where
there's not somebody in front of us at
all. Right? And when we're doing that,
particularly with strangers, people we
know nothing about, things we know
nothing about, then the one thing we
have at our disposal is ourselves. We
can use our own minds. Right? So, if I
walk into a classroom and I think it's
kind of cold in here, well, I can assume
that other people will think it's cold,
too. I'm using myself as a guide. Once I
know a little more maybe about you,
right? I learned that you are, you know,
you're a PhD from Stanford. I learn that
um, you know, somebody is a is an
athlete or whatever. I learn something
about you. You're you're a doctor or
you're a lawyer. Then I can use that
information, my beliefs about groups of
people as a guide. That's stereotyping.
And stereotypes contain a fair bit of
accuracy to them. If I know that you're
a Democrat or a Republican, I can make
some reasonable inferences about other
thoughts you might have, other beliefs
you might have. Not perfect, but better
than chance guessing. And then once I
see you like what we're doing right now,
if I can see you, then I'm watching your
behavior. And then behavior dominates.
Behavior though is tricky. I'm watching
you, right? You could have two people
kissing. They seem, you know,
delightfully in love, right? They seem
just so nice together. And you can you
you can make one set of inferences. When
you see that that happening based on
that, you can infer what's going on
behind that based on what you're seeing.
And when we can see the behavior in
front of us, that's then what we're
paying most attention to. But each of
these different mechanisms, egoentrism,
stereotyping, and behaviorism, we might
think about working backwards from your
behavior. They all gain give us some
accuracy, but they also create some
error. Egoentrism creates egocentric
biases. I assume that you think more
like I do than you actually do.
Stereotyping tends to create a different
set of mistakes. I tend to think that
groups are more distinct and different
from each other than they actually are
because stereotypes are about the
defining features of groups which tends
to exaggerate the differences between
groups. And when it comes to behavior, I
tend to assume a simpler, more
simplistic um uh mind behind that
behavior than exact actually exists.
Psychologists refer to this as the
correspondence bias. I tend to infer an
intention or set of beliefs or attitudes
that corresponds with your behavior as I
see it. So if I see you hit somebody, I
might assume you are an aggressive
person. That's how I interpret right
away. Had I known it was in
self-defense, then I would interpret it
very differently, right? But we tend to
leap to mental states or intentions from
behavior. Sometimes that can get us into
trouble when the relationship between
intentions or thoughts and behavior is a
little complicated. So each of those
gets us some accuracy, but each of them
also creates some error. If you are
willing, I'd like to return to the
example you gave at the beginning of of
a ball rolling on a table and another
ball striking it or not. You know, in
the second example you gave that the
ball simply takes off on a different
trajectory, you said that we're going to
make some assumption that the ball has
something like a mind, something
controlling its decisions.
>> What I'm about to say reflects a a a
strong bias, which is that I've long
been interested in the visual system
>> of non-human and human primates because
we are so visual and the eyes are two
pieces of the brain. They're the only
pieces of the brain in healthy
individuals that are outside the cranial
vault. And they give us a lot of
information. And I think people know
that,
>> but I don't think they appreciate just
how much information they give us.
>> Not just pupil size and whether or not
our gaze is is locked with theirs. All
that's true, too. But if I could just
alter your experiment for a second.
Let's say that first ball had eyes.
>> Oh, yeah. and it's rolling forward, but
then the eyes shift to the left and then
the ball goes to the left. Now I have
additional information. I have a window
literally into the brain where I can say
what's over there that might have
motivated that decision. And I think
with humans, we do this, right? Like if
somebody's going down the street just
swinging their arms wildly and hitting
people, we think this person's out of
control, they're crazy. Whereas if they
see somebody then they orient to their
their gaze toward them. Now we we start
making all sorts of assumptions about
the operations of that mind. And in my
worldview no pun intended the eyes are
the best source of
>> information about intent about goals
etc. So limiting the conversation to
conditions where we can see the other
person and what they see. Are there any
examples of our judgments about other
people's thoughts and behavior and etc
improving by virtue of Sure. Yeah. I
mean so the eyes are do provide a lot
valid information. Absolutely. The voice
also contains an awful lot. So that's
the other thing we spend a lot of time
studying. But
>> we we are the most socially
sophisticated primate species on the
planet. We have a brain uniquely
equipped for connecting with the minds
of others. And that means that we are
hyper sensitive to certain things. The
eyes are one of them. There's this great
paper in 2008 on the cultural
intelligence hypothesis. It's a science
paper where they compared, you know,
they try try to assess what is it that
makes humans sort of unique on this
planet. Um, and they compared a little
over 100 two-year-old toddlers, right?
Imagine running this experiment if you
would. A little over 100year-old
toddlers. This was done at the Max Blank
Institute in Germany. one of the max
blanks over a 100 chimpanzees and then
just for good measure another 36
orangutans who apparently had nothing
better to do.
>> What a funny Yeah, it's crazy.
>> Exhausting.
>> Exactly. Men, I can't Yeah, I I would
like to know the background of of
details of this, how it was actually
done and how long it took. But what they
did essentially is ran each of these
groups through two different kinds of IQ
tests. you might think of them as one
was an IQ test involving physical
objects, right? So things like, you
know, tracking where a reward was placed
under a shell game or using a tool to to
solve some kind of problem. Jane Goodall
once, you know, psychologists once
believed, biologists once believed that
tool use was what made humans unique
until Jane Goodall watched the
chimpanzees using twigs to get termites
out of a termite mount. Right? On the
physical IQ test problems, the human
toddlers, the adult chimps, and the
orangutans performed equally well. There
wasn't a difference. It's not reasoning
about physical things in space that make
us unique.
>> The other group of IQ problems were
social problems where it required
reasoning about the mind of another
person. And this involved doing things
like tracking where someone's eyes are
looking in order to monitor what
somebody is thinking because we tend to
look at things we're thinking thinking
about and think about things we're
looking at. If I want to know what's on
your mind, what's governing your
attention, I want to be really good at
tracking your eyes. And we are amazing
at this as human beings. I can tell
whether you're looking at me right now
or looking at my right ear from this far
without any trouble. I can tell from 50
feet away, whether you're looking at me
or looking at, you know, 10 feet above
me. We're amazingly good at this. super
sensitive this I couldn't calculate the
angle on a roof if you gave me a month
and an arm load of protractors to do it
but I can detect the angle in your eyes
in an instant also involve things like
being able to understand somebody's
intentions from their actions right so
if I reach out to for this glass of
water and I miss it you can infer I'm
thirsty and I want a drink you could oh
you could hand me the glass Nick right
if if I wanted a drink and because
that's you could read my mind
essentially you could infer my thoughts
when And they tested the two-year-old
toddlers, the chimps, and the orangutans
on in these social IQ tests. That's
where the 2-year-old toddlers were
shining. That's where we were crushing
the competition on those social IQ
problems. You can do this, you know, in
front of a chimpanzeee all day long and
they will do nothing for you, right?
Nothing for you. I do that in front of
you and you can hand me the glass of
water super easily. So yes, the eyes
give us a lot and we are extremely
sensitive to all of those social cues
that convey might convey what's on the
mind of another person because it allows
me to anticipate what you're doing
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And you mentioned voice. Um, I'm going
to make an assumption, I'm sure it's
wrong, um, or at least partially wrong,
that voice offers a lot of information
about autonomic tone, how stressed or
how relaxed somebody is.
>> Uh, and I'd be curious to know a, if
that's true, what else it conveys, and
also how much prior exposure to voice
matters. Today's the first time I've met
you. I don't know what your voice
normally sounds like in this context, so
I'm just operating off what I've got.
>> So, what's in voice? what's not in voice
and and what what are we aware of? What
are we not aware of?
>> Yeah. So, there are lots of things
contained in the voice because it is
very closely connected to your mind. You
notice that your eyes are right. Your
eyes are closed, but your your voice is
also very closely connected to your
online conscious experience. You are
speaking while you are thinking. And as
you're having thoughts, your voice can
reflect authentically what's going on in
your mind. So, when I speed up, you can
tell I'm kind of excited about
something. When my voice varies in
pitch, you can tell if I'm enthusiastic
or not or kind of sad about something.
You can pick up a lot about what's
actually going on in the mind by
listening to a person's voice. And there
are a couple of things that we've
studied in in our research. One is voice
just contains a lot of information that
allows us to understand other people
better. Right? So, if you compare typing
to somebody versus talking to them, the
voice allows you to to determine things
like intentionality to to differentiate
when you're telling a joke or being
sarcastic than when you're not. Right?
We'll type this email.
This is so funny, right? We think when
we're sending off an email to somebody,
it seems funny to us because we know
this is meant to be a joke. Person on
the other end doesn't realize the
comment about this person's aunt or
brother or whatever was meant to be a
joke and they're all offended, right?
But if you say this in your voice,
sarcasm is crystal clear. Interestingly,
what we find, and this is because of
egoentrism in part, we're not always so
sensitive to how our own communication
is interpreted by another person because
we know what we're thinking when we're
conveying something. We tend to think
we'll be understood equally well whether
we're typing or talking, but of course
on the receiving end, it varies a lot.
So voice contains a lot of information
that allows us to understand what
somebody's saying better. But what we
also find which I think is at least from
my perspective also interesting is that
the voice also conveys the presence of
mind. I don't have access to your
thinking to your reasoning to to what's
going on between your ears. I can only
watch from the outside right and I get
cues. I can see your visual gaze but I
can also hear you. The voice contains a
lot of cues to the presence of mind.
When you're really thinking hard about
something, your voice slows down and you
deliberate. And that variability in the
pace of your voice kind of tells me that
your mind is alive. Just like I can tell
that you're biologically alive because
you're moving, your voice also moves.
And it tells me you got a lively mind.
It conveys the presence of emotion. It
can pre convey the presence of thinking.
So when we have partisans, for instance,
we did this, this was with Juliana
Schroeder, who was one of my amazing PhD
students from years ago. She's now on
the faculty at Berkeley at at HOS. We
had people, this was on the eve of the
2016 election between Donald Trump and
Hillary Clinton. We had people who were
voting for Trump or Clinton
say why they were voting for the
candidate they were voting for and they
gave a verbal pitch. And we could get a
few different cues from this. We could
get an audio recorded clip so we could
see and hear the person. We could just
get their voice and we could also strip
out their voice and just see the content
of their text, right? To see the words
they were saying. They also wrote a
pitch about an explanation for why they
were voting for this particular
candidate. Okay. What we then did is we
had people
watch and listen listen read the
transcript or read the the written uh
explanation and say
essentially how mindful is this person?
How thoughtful are they? How thoughtful,
how intelligent, how rational, how
capable of experiencing emotions are
they? Essentially they're asking are you
a mindful intelligent person or are you
kind of just like a mindless idiot? are
you humanlike or are you kind of not
humanike like a more like a rock? And
what we found was that when people could
hear what the person had to say either
while also seeing them or just with
their voice, they rated the person
particularly when they disagreed with
them when there was person on the other
side as more thoughtful, more
intelligent, more rational. this
tendency to dehumanize the other side to
think of them as mindless idiots was
dramatically reduced when you actually
heard what the other person has to say.
So I think the voice along with the eyes
along with eyes ga eye gaze but the
voice allows us gives us a lot of
information allows us to understand
what's on somebody's mind and it also
allows us something deeper allows me to
tell you that you've got a mind that you
have one it's very interesting I the
vision piece I'm familiar with for
reasons I stated before the physical
behavior piece makes a lot of sense the
the voice piece as a reflection of an
active mind is something I I really
haven't considered you know we'll hear
sometimes
that the content of people's words is
less informative than, you know, the
tambber of their voice or something like
that. I I don't know that I completely
believe that. I I think that that's a I
think that's a '9s that's like an 80s9s
pop psychology.
>> Absolutely. That is a highly stylized
experimental result.
>> Right. So, you will sometimes hear in
this popsych world that 80% of what's
communicated is communicated through
paral linguistic. That obviously is not
true. you're not going to I'm not going
to be able to tell you about my book
>> just by using the tone of my voice.
Right. Right.
>> So that is that certain
>> words matter.
>> The words certainly do matter. But above
and beyond that, there are other things
that matter in a person's voice that at
least we find people aren't so sensitive
to. So when we ask, for instance, when
we ask our MBA students to give an
elevator pitch, as Juliana and I did in
in one of our one of our experiments,
give an elevator pitch for their their
their desired job, the job they want
most, right? Why should this company
hire you? They can give it with their
voice. So, we do the audio and visual.
Uh we do just the audio. We pull out the
transcript, just get the words or they
type their pitch. We then have people
watch and listen listen or read these
pitches and say, "How intelligent does
this person seem to be? How hirable does
this person seem to be?" And we've done
this both with people who imagine
working for companies and also with
Fortune 500 recruiters, too. the person
seems more intelligent, more rational,
more thoughtful, more hirable when you
hear what they have to say. And yet the
MBA students themselves think they'll be
judged equally on those two. They're
not. And when we ask a separate separate
group of people, if you wanted to
communicate with somebody in a way that
would make you seem most intelligent,
overwhelmingly people say, I'd rather
write. And the thinking behind that, I
think, is that people think they can
edit and such, but what they're missing
is that the sound of your voice conveys
a lot more. It conveys the fact that you
have a mind because I can't see it and I
can't read it in your dead text. Right?
Your dead text has none of the paral
linguistic cues or features. Really
talented writers, novelists can do this.
But mostly your text is dead. It doesn't
have intonation. It doesn't change its
pitch. It doesn't show me thinking while
it's actually happening and people don't
seem to realize that.
>> What does this reveal to us about AI? Um
because
>> people are spending more and more time
with AI on AI
>> and what comes back is text. I mean
there are versions of it and soon I
imagine there will be elaborated
versions of it with
>> um avatars or even uh video AR. Are you
generally enthusiastic about what that
could bring in terms of better
understanding other humans? Because I
could imagine a world where, you know, I
can't reach you, but I could go on AI
and say, "Hey, Nick." I would just do it
directly. Hey, Nick. Uh, I'm really
curious. I'm going to the Midwest where
you're from, and I'm I'm super
interested in like culturally what's the
best way that I could connect with
someone around this, this, and this.
given the content on the internet,
>> the uh LLM should be able to have a
video of you
>> deliver to me what you would say or
pretty close to it. Is that that can be
better than than a bullet point list?
>> It will. Yeah. So people will find it
more believable. I think, right? But a
lot of the things that people turn to AI
for now are for facts, right? For actual
information, for text. But I do think
increasingly it's going to be used for
social stuff.
>> Yeah. People feel lonely, disconnected,
they need a friend. And I'm friends with
Liz Dunn who's a fabulous psychologist
at the University of British Columbia.
And she told me um that they're starting
to do research about allowing people to
to practice having conversations with AI
before they actually have a conversation
with another person like a conflict.
>> I can see ways in which AI could be used
to do to do lots of things. I can also
see obvious problems with it. If I'm
connecting with the AI and I'm not
connecting with other humans, I can see
problems with it. But I think in terms
of the presence versus absence of of
voice, um I do think voice will allow us
to the extent that it's good and
perfect, right? Sounds like a human
voice. Our predict my prediction would
be that you can trust it more when you
hear what it has to say as long as it
mimics really well a human voice
>> because you'd anthropomorphize it just
like you do another person.
>> I don't want to spend too much time on
politics, but I can't help but ask this
next question. um way back when uh Bush
was president,
>> second one,
>> um I recall there was a lot of
discussion around um people who voted
for him saying he's the kind of guy
you'd want to have a beer with.
>> Yeah.
>> Right.
>> Yeah.
>> Which I interpreted as there's something
about his style of speech
>> which was very everyday.
>> Yes.
>> And we don't have to talk about current
candidates and politicians. Not to avoid
it. I don't tap dance around on anything
these days, but I think it nowadays we
have a lot of access to people talking
on video. They, you know, when you and I
were growing up, I think we're more or
less the same age. You know, there would
be a pres presidential address or
there'd be a campaign and you'd hear
from people, but it was it was very
limited. You didn't get so much exposure
to people.
>> So now we have more and more information
about voice, about behavior, about
decisionm um depending on the
resolution, where their eyes are going.
Um, do you think that we're getting
better at assessing
public figures or are we getting worse
at assessing public figures?
>> That's a good question. I think that'll
take me too far out on a limb. I don't I
don't know. I don't know the answer to
that. I mean, there's so much
information that we have now. Um, but
the other thing too is that the way we
evaluate other people, and this is this
is central to a lot of our research,
other people are ambiguous, right?
They're not crystal clear. that same
thing that I say to you that I mean to
be a joke can sound really hostile or
violent to another person, right? Can
sound really awful and be taken as
offensive. So I think that that's what
make my makes my work as a psychologist
so so interesting. In the early 1900s
psychologist you know when social
psychology my field in cognitive
psychology started it came out of you
know basically biology and vision
sciences and and basic sensory
perception thinking that we could
understand human thinking and measure it
measure our judgments about each other
in the same way that we measure how
people evaluate hot and cold and stuff
like that. But it turns out that other
people are very ambiguous. It's not
always so crystal clear. And so two
people with a different set of beliefs
or attitudes or perspectives on the
situation can look at the very same
stimulus and see totally different
things. Right? A lot of our judgment is
not happening out there coming to us.
It's happening in here interpreting what
we're seeing. And in the world of
politics, everyone who's listening to
this podcast knows just how ambiguous
things are. Somebody says something and
the right will, you know, think
interpret it this way, the left will
interpret it that way. It's known as my
side bias. Even the very same stimulus,
right? So there is this sense that if we
get more and more and more information,
then we'll understand people better
better. That's not necessarily true. If
we come into these perceptions, into
these viewing these things with very
different starting points or very
different perspectives to begin with.
>> You've worked a lot on this notion of
under socialization.
>> If I may, I'd like to invert it for
today's conversation and uh talk a
little bit less through the lens of how
bad it is if we're undersocialized and
um explore instead how good it is if we
do socialize. um not because I I have to
make things positive, but because
ultimately I think actions to socialize
more are going to be useful. And um I'm
tempted to set this up as an experiment.
>> So as with the the example of the balls
you gave before, in the most deprived
>> condition, a human is in total
isolation.
>> Okay. So um another condition is they
can let's just say text with somebody
else, but they can't see them. They
they've never seen them. And we can
ratchet that up, right? They've seen
them before. They can make a phone call.
They can do video chat. They're in
person. I can see a million excellent
arguments for why why in-person
interaction is good. But what is the
evidence that the other forms of social
interaction are good also? We hear so
much about how they're bad,
>> but we also hear about the isolation
crisis. And so we've sort of I've lumped
>> the more deprived versions of
socialization in with isolation. And I'm
not sure that I accept that. I'm not
trying to counter your work. I don't
know enough about to do it. I'm not
qualified to anyway. But is texting with
a friend healthy?
>> Yes.
>> As opposed to spending time alone?
>> For sure.
>> Okay. In person time clearly being the
best.
>> It's a little better. Although going
from no contact to some contact is the
big leap.
>> Tell me more.
>> So being isolated, so spending a day
alone is pretty is pretty miserable. So
when psychologists look at this, this
comes from a from a famous uh uh paper
by Danny Conorman and Angus Deon, both
Nobel Prize winners in economics,
neither of them economists, that looked
at the Gallup daily uh well-being poll,
right? And the they call they they call
people up every day and they ask them
how you're feeling today in a number of
different ways. Were and they actually
ask you about the day before. Yesterday,
did did you enjoy yesterday? Did you
feel enjoyment yesterday? Were did you
smile yesterday? Did you experience
sadness yesterday? Right? Did you
experience stress yesterday? And they
they so they ask about these different
measures of well-being. They also ask
about all kinds of other things like how
much money you're making? Are you
religious or not? Uh they know how much
insurance you have, whether you're
surveyed on a weekend or a weekday. They
also ask you um did you spend yesterday
entirely alone or not? And when they do
that, you can compare the effects of
things like social isolation, you know,
being alone versus not against these
other things. It turns out the
difference between spending yesterday
alone versus somebody else. The
difference in your well-being on these
other measures is about seven times
bigger than being relatively high or low
on their income measure, which is about
a $60,000 difference between these two
groups. That being alone is bad. That's
a bad day. Okay. And having connections
with other people improves it pretty
dramatically. Above and beyond that, you
know, it it does matter. It can be. It
it's it's it is better those
interactions, but now you're you're
you're adding good things to what was
already somewhat a good thing. Plus, we
also need to we need to unpack a little
bit what these different media do.
They're good for different things. And
we don't always use them for in the ways
that are right. But I think, you know,
in many ways we do. Like if I send you a
text or I send my wife a text, right?
She's she's back in Illinois today.
We've been married for nearly 30. It'll
be 30 years in August this year. We know
a ton about each other. I can send her,
you know, a heart when I'm feeling, you
know, love and I want to send her to let
her know that and she's going to feel
that's going to lift her up a little
bit. That's gonna feel good. We already
have a relationship that's establishing
just some some contact. Texting is great
for that. It can allow us to stay in
contact with somebody. It is not good
for building a relationship necessarily
over time. Like if we're going to spend
a half hour typing to each other is not
a good way to spend that half hour. I'd
be much better at picking the phone and
talking to you to help establish that
relationship. But absolutely, the
ability to reach out and connect with
other people frequently as texting is
used out in the world can allow us to
stay connected. Now, if that's the only
thing we're doing, if we're not actually
spending time developing more meaningful
relationships with people, that's not
going to be as good as it as it could
be. But you started this by asking about
sociality more generally. And why is
being social good for us? The fact of
the matter is even with our
imperfections and thinking about the
minds of others, we are highly social.
Just the ability to think in the level
of sophistication that we do about the
minds of other people shows how
important sociality is for us. And you
see the importance of sociality just
almost everywhere you look. The way our
brain is organized, right? So our
neoortex is massive relative to the rest
of our brain compared to our nearest
primate relatives to the chimpanzees. A
lot of that stuff is good for social
stuff, right? For theory of mind use,
for keeping track of who knows what and
who you should trust and who you should
avoid. Living in large social groups is
complicated, right? And the size of our
brain reflects a complication. If you
look across primate species, the size of
the neoortex relative to the rest of the
brain is correlated with this is this is
uh this is work on the social brain
hypothesis, right? The size of the
neoortex relative to the rest of the
brain is correlated with the social
complexity of the group the primate
species lives in. Our brains are built
to be social. Also, for most of human
history, being alone and isolated is a
death sentence, right? You can't live on
your we depend on each other for
survival. That also means that we have a
neural architecture that is desperately
trying to keep us connected with other
people. And so when you spend a day
alone, the reason why it feels like crap
as my uh as my late colleague and friend
John Casiopo who was at the uh
University of Chicago studied loneliness
really is the world was the world's
expert on loneliness noted that that
your neural architecture is screaming at
you when you are feeling when you are
alone to reach out and connect with
other people. That's why loneliness
feels bad, right? And that's why the
opposite of loneliness feels so good.
Like getting like getting a hug that
feels good. Your brain is trying to tell
you, get out there and connect with
other people. So, when you're lonely,
you get spikes in cortisol in your
bloodstream that compromises your
cardiovascular functioning, that
compromises your immune system. That's
why being lonely can make you sick and
why it can shorten your life, right? You
also see that the opposite of
loneliness, connecting with other
people, just feels darn good, right?
That's your brain telling you, that's
your body telling you, "Yeah, do this a
little more often. This is really good."
Right? So when you have that little
conversation with a with a stranger like
I did coming, you know, coming in, I had
this amazing conversation. It was
actually a very deep hard conversation
with my Uber driver who was Iranian, uh
had lost a son in a protest, shot in the
neck years ago in Iran. Yeah. Very
painful, but also very meaningful.
Connected us to each other, felt a very
strong bond with each other in the
moment. That's your brain telling you
that's the kind of thing that we're
built for, right? Because living alone
for most of human history was a bad bad
thing. So we are hypersocial agents
interested in connecting with other
people. It doesn't always mean we know
exactly how to do it or that we we get
it right. But going from nothing to
something is a huge leap for us. And
texting can sometimes help us do that.
>> One comment, one question. Um sometimes
I like a day alone. Yeah, I don't get
it, but that's because I I don't spend
time around lots of people, but I spend
a lot of time around
>> certain set of people. I adore them, but
you know, sometimes it's nice to get
that space. But one thing that I've
noticed because when I was a graduate
student, I'd run these experiments often
during the holidays because I worked on
developmental neurobiology. I didn't
have a choice if that, you know, if my
experimental subjects were a certain
postnatal age, I was working that day.
It was my after all. Yes. And there's
this kind of interesting idea that I'm
not sure I subscribe to, but well that I
do subscribe to, forgive me, that
there's something about us as humans
that we really like to create action at
a distance, you know, and I don't know
if there's a sex difference here, but I
think it's like, you know, young boys
like create like a rocket. It's a remote
control car, you know, you have boys,
you know, or see something happen over
there um that you controlled in in a in
a meaningful way. And it doesn't have to
be violent, right? that we did rockets
and guns, but it it could have could be
something else. But
>> this is somewhat philosophical more than
it's scientific. But could it be that if
we spend too much time alone, we've got
all this stuff in our mind and it's very
hard to create some sort of
reverberation or a or action it at a
distance that we know reflects us. And I
wonder if our unconscious mind actually
gets to the question like, do I even
exist? Now, of course, we know we exist.
we can touch our limbs, but the social
isolation fear,
>> you know, if I've got fridge full of
food and I've got music and I've got
audio books, that's all incoming. But at
some point, you do get a little I know
cuz I've spent days upon days doing
experiments back when by myself. You you
get a little
>> weird.
>> Your thoughts get a little distorted and
and it's almost like
>> you know there's stuff out there, but if
you spend enough time away from it, it
it kind of messes with your head a
little bit. Yeah.
>> And then of course we think of like the
Ted Kazinski types and these extremes of
people that have gone into isolation.
There's that movie about the the true
story that um
>> the guy that goes into the wilderness.
>> Oh yeah. Right. Um
>> yeah. Eddie Veter wrote the soundtrack
to that movie. Right. And I love into
the wild.
>> That's right. And um
>> McCannis, right? Mckennus.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> And I think he wrote at the end, you
know, the connection with people is the
thing. you know, he had this romantic
view of going out into the wilderness by
himself or we think of, you know, Walden
Pond and, you know, we romanticize this
thing about being alone for long
extended amounts of time.
>> But I think it raises real questions
about whether or not we're
>> even there. It's sort of the the most
existential version of like if a tree
falls in the woods, you know, and no
one's there, did it make a sound? It's
sort of like if we have thoughts and
emotions and experiences and there's no
one else around
>> Yeah.
>> to reflect those
>> for them to have impact on. like do we
even exist?
>> And this might be some hard wiring here.
I'm getting like almost Freudian and so
forgive me. I'm not a psychologist, but
I'm I'm curious what what your thoughts
are about the relationship between the
fear of isolation, our need for for our
thoughts and desires and behaviors to to
have some sort of reverberation
>> out there, some responsiveness to us.
>> Yeah. Some confirmation that we're
actually here. I think the closest
research to this to the extent that
there is research on this is what
happens to people prisoners who are put
in solitary confinement. It is not good
for their mental health. It's not good
for their sense ofelves for who they
are. They do lose a sense of themselves.
There's not great research on this
because you can't randomly assign people
to be isolated for long periods of time.
Right. Yes. Thank goodness. Yes. That
that's why we have IRBs, right? But that
experience I think is very real. What
when you were talking about this, it
made me think of um research in the
early 1900s, these theories from
sociologists um that the way we
understand ourselves is through other
people. The way I know who I am, what
I'm like as a person, who Nick is is
from talking with you, Andrew, and when
we are in conversation, that's when I'm
learning about myself. You're telling me
about myself. I'm having thoughts that
I'm sharing with you. And that's what
gives me a sense of self, this looking
glass self. and our sense of self-esteem
in fact is highly highly tied am I a
valuable person is highly tied to how
well we're getting along with other
people psychologists uh believe that it
is a monitor in fact for how well you're
getting along with people your very
sense of selfworth and so when there is
nobody out there I think you're
absolutely right that's a that you can
you can lose your sense of of who you
are and people who go out to the woods I
remember when I was a when I was a kid
um I actually wrote this I I won an
early career award from APA, which is a
great honor for me. But in the in the
bio that they asked you to write, I I
wrote in that that uh about my childhood
dream, my childhood before I was 9 years
old, I believed I was going to be a
mountain man. Like I grew up in the
woods in Iowa, hunting and fishing,
being outdoors. All my extended family
were farmers, watching Grizzly Adams on
TV. Like I thought that was a legit job.
Like you could I could actually go do
this, right? And I was about 9 years old
when I don't remember quite how this
happened, but I learned that this was
not a real job. Like it was this was not
a legit thing that I could do, right?
But yes, I had romanticized it as well
that this is going to be a wonderful
thing to be able to do. But when people
actually go out and do that, they mostly
go insane for, you know, a wow.
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media, which I spend a decent amount of
time on because I teach there and I
learn there. Um, you know, we know has
healthy aspects and unhealthy aspects.
Bunch of variables there. Age, what
people are looking at, etc. how much
time on it. Yeah. But social media
offered people this opportunity to get
out of aloneeness
>> through a different form of connection.
And so if we just kind of hypothesize
that having our words or our thoughts
have an a visible a known impact on
somebody else's words or thoughts
provide some sort of confirmation that
we're there. It kind of explains why,
you know, taking the most aggressive or
out uh or outrageous thought and
>> putting a comment and then somebody
responds or other people dogpile or they
respond and then you're like, I'm having
an effect out there also safely behind a
wall, right? There's no um I think we're
critical of that safely behind a wall
piece. you know that the the stereotype
that you hear online is like you know um
you know Apple 7689 in his mom's
basement like you know trolling people
you know and but that we forget like
that person's alone in their basement
why are they doing it like why is it so
satisfying to them I don't actually
believe that most of these people are
evil some of them might be but probably
they want to see their words and
thoughts have an effect and the best way
to do that is to poke or to say
something outrageous and so I'm hoping
that
>> whoever runs these platforms will try to
create incentives for um more positive
interactions because I think what
ultimately what most people want is the
interaction to feel that their thoughts
and their feelings matter out there. So
if we can go to something even a little
more concrete, if we just think about
conversation, right, the back and forth.
Why is it the conversation is often such
a pleasant thing? It is because there is
back and forth responsiveness in the
conversation that allows me to detect
that you're paying attention to me.
Right now you're looking at me, right?
You're nodding at me as I'm speaking and
you'll give a mhm or a right or a yeah
as I'm going along. And that allows me
to recognize my thoughts are having an
effect on you in a way that's having a
positive effect in return on me. And so
I think very much the that action action
at a distance as you put it.
Psychologists talk about that as
responsiveness or being in synchrony
with another person is part of what
makes conversation feels so good.
>> I have some friends who are recording
artists and the only reason they still
tour
>> it is it's not for the money. leaving
the money's in some cases is good, but
it's not as good as money they can make
doing other things. It's a huge hassle.
>> Yeah.
>> Um takes them away from families.
There's security issues. There's all
this stuff. But they get to experience
the apex of collective human action at a
distance based on their
>> their inflections, their things. You
mentioned Eddie Veter, right? There's
and then there stories of what whatever
he like scaled the the at at some
concert, right? He scaled up and like
grabbed the microphone got stuck up
above and then and then he actually I
actually watched it. It was pretty
dangerous and then he and then he
actually repelled down on the microphone
wire. Yeah. This was all spontaneous. So
he's doing these things. I don't know
how much he's conscious of the fact that
he's, you know, exciting people and, you
know, but but recording artists love to
do this. They don't just love to sing.
They love to see the response of of the
people they sing to. And people go to
concerts,
>> right?
>> I believe because whether they
understand it or not, they're having an
impact on what's happening up on stage.
>> They understand that that reciprocity.
So, I think we're just driven to do
this. I I have to believe that that this
is
>> part of our core wiring. When when we're
kids and we round up in preschool, like,
all right, everyone round up. and
everyone tries to sit still and the
girls generally can and the boys
generally can't for a little until a
later age. There's a lot of learning to
let others speak to kind of like hold
things in. So as a human psychologist,
if you were to play pimeatlogist for a
moment and we are human oldw world
primates, what are the sort of core
components that
>> social connection are built on? We
talked about dialogue, we talked about
vision, we talked about sharing. Is it,
you know, but
>> we don't get a whole lot of training in
this if you really think about it. We we
just kind of go through school. We learn
to sit. We learn to listen. You're not
supposed to hit people. You're not
supposed to yell at people. You know,
you run around at recess and and and so
on and you do what other people do. But
>> like what is the socialization in in
human primates? What are the core
features that make somebody able to
>> function really well socially or not? I
think the thing to keep in mind at least
is the reason why we think social
connection matters so much, why it's so
important is that it allows us to
coordinate with other people.
>> And if I can coordinate with you, then
you and I are better able to survive and
to exist and pass along our genes. And
if we can't coordinate with each other
and that groups that are able to
coordinate with each other collectively
cooperate with each other in ways that
are that are good for the common good,
those groups outperform groups where
people are just at each other's throat.
Nobody's cooperating. Right? This is why
corporations
function effectively. You get a
collection of individuals all operating
as a single unit all oriented towards
one common goal. And you can get a
collection of people of individuals then
doing things that are way more advanced
and way bigger than any individual would
do on their own. This is why the East
Indian Trading Company was able to send
ships all around the world because they
had resources tied up in corporations so
that they could send ships out into the
world and if a one went down you
wouldn't lose all of your all of your
resources. You wouldn't lose all your
riches as an investor. So all of social
connection, at least evolutionarily
speaking, this is the idea, is pushing
us toward cooperation and coordination,
particularly with non-kin. That's what
makes us truly social on this planet is
our ability to cooperate and to care for
non-kin. You don't need coordination
with family members. Uh you know, you
don't need any any special evolutionary
mechanism to get coordination with
family members. They have your they have
your genes, right? They have your genes.
So that makes perfect sense. you're
leaving genetic offspring, but you need
something else to explain why I'm so
friendly with you and why we coordinate
so well out there in the world. We drive
on the right side of the road where we
befriend people uh who we're not related
to. And that's where I think all of this
that's what all that's what social
connection is ultimately trying to serve
is that coordination function. Do you
think there are hardwired mechanisms
that set us up for cooperation with our
genetic offspring and siblings and so
forth more so than with non- genetic? Uh
I know you have adopted kids. Uh we have
adopted kids in our family as well and
and it's sort of weird to say this cuz
it's kind of a duh, but for people that
don't have adopted family members, like
the notion that they're not like
>> really part of your family is is insane.
I for privacy reasons I don't want to
disclose who these people are but I can
tell you that um I have a younger family
member who was adopted and
>> I never ever ever think for a moment
that she's not part of our family right
lay down and traffic for her the same
way I would for any other member of my
family and I wasn't the one that raised
her. Do you think there's something
hardwired about our genetic offspring
then? And the other stuff fortunately
develops adopted children, uh, close
friends, um, community members.
>> Yeah.
>> I don't know the answer to that exactly.
That's not what I study per se. What I
what I can tell you though as a social
psychologist is that what we study is
the power of context and roles to drive
behavior. And the thing that you are
speaking to and the thing that we have
experienced as parents, we have three
adopted children. What really matters is
the role you play, right? And that is
magical. When we adopted our first two
children
um from Ethiopia, we made a decision to
do this. And and when you adopt, there's
there's a point where you move from this
being hypothetical to being this being
real. Okay? And the way this worked for
us was that we were shown pictures of
these children who we could adopt. And
of course, once you're once you're in on
it, like you're all in, you're not
really making a choice. I'm not sure.
They said, you know, we called we called
up the agency. We said we were ready to
go. And and they said, "How about
these?" And they put a picture up for
us. And when we first making this
decision, it was hypothetical.
And the pictures look different to us.
These kids have come from our kids have
come from very very hard places in life.
You don't end up in an orphanage another
part of the world unless you've come
through hard places. They had come
through very hard places. They were in
the second and third percentile in the
WHO heightened uh weight charts. They
were in tough shape. As soon as Jen and
I said, "Yeah, we can do this." I I so
vividly remember this. They just looked
better. They just they looked more. You
just felt more love. They looked
different
>> the second we decided, yes, this is it.
Here we go. We have committed.
>> And then once you bring people into your
family, anybody who's done this knows
the huge effect is your dad or your mom.
And that's what matters. We will
sometimes I don't know if your family
has done this but I will sometimes very
gently note to people they will
sometimes talk to me as a as another
father of of my kids and not my kids
right as if the biological and adopted
children are different and I very try to
gently say they are all our children and
you don't you don't feel differently so
I think what's interesting not as if
there is there any subtle difference
that's left is how almost completely
imperceptible or completely
imperceptible. It actually is. That's
what makes us remarkable as human beings
that we can do that. There is no other
species we know of that does that kind
of thing that loves beyond their kin in
the way that we can. In fact, it's led
to a a total reshaping in many ways of
the field of economics. Even economists
believe that humans are fundamentally
self-interested. They only care about
themselves. The only rub is when you
actually look at the data, people are
just a lot nicer to each other than
standard models of economics would
predict. We give money away to charity.
We give away kidneys to random
strangers. We care. Like if if if I give
you $10 in an experiment and tell you
you can divide it with another person
however you want. You can keep all of
it. Give uh you know give none of it or
give it all away. The standard
prediction from economic theory is
you'll be purely self-interest. you
won't care anything about this person
you know nothing about. You'll give them
nothing. That's not what real people do.
They give something 30%, 50%, typically
depending on the context that you're in.
And that's the thing that I think is
remarkable in this particular case. Not
is there any any bit left of of the this
this biological hard wiring, but how
much of it is about the role that you
play and how much our love for another,
our ability to connect with another
person is a function of the role that we
play in their lives.
>> Incredible example that the moment you
made this decision, you and your wife
made the decision that these were the
children you were going to adopt, that
they your visual perception of them
changed.
>> Different.
>> Yeah. It's almost like two circuits
merged in that moment and and I I can
attest from a parallel experience. Um
although I'm not the parent of this
family member that it you never go
there's it's a it's an instant and you
never go back.
>> There's never a reconsideration that you
know and I think some people assume that
like well in especially hard times you
know it's actually it kind of just
leaves the room that like the question
it's a fascinating and reassuring aspect
of of our brain wiring. Other people
might imagine that you think this. It
just doesn't. You just you're you're
just a parent. That's it.
>> Wild and very cool.
>> It is very cool. And and and I think an
underappreciated aspect of our sociality
is how much we and and we often we kind
of take it for granted. You know, people
are mean to each other. Yeah. Yeah.
People can be mean to each other, but we
also love each other way beyond what we
should in some way based on just pure,
you know, kinship relationships and
biological offspring would predict we
would. And that's because we're highly
social. We got to cooperate with each
other in order to get along successfully
in life. And so we got these really hard
uh hardwired kind of circuitry to care
and love and connect with each with each
other when we try. what I'm about to
describe might be different now.
>> Um, but a good portion of my family is
in South America. And I'll never forget
when I was in my like late teens, early
20s, I went down there and I I went out
with my cousins to a bar. It was like a
club, right? Um, and it was so
interesting because they spoke to their
friends. We met up with their friends
there. People danced, people drank, did
all the things that we were also doing
back in California,
>> but there was no communication with
other people at this club or this bar
that they didn't already know.
>> Oh,
>> this may have changed,
>> but the then and there the the culture
was one where you go out with the people
you already know and you have a really
good time, but people weren't exchanging
numbers, hitting on people, looking at
other people, cross it was it's that
there were these little pockets across
the room. So it wasn't this idea that oh
when you go out in public you go to a
club or you drink or something you might
meet somebody else that there wasn't a
fear of other people that wasn't the
reason you go out you go out to see your
friends and the interesting thing also
was that many of these friendships had
been lifelong friendships.
>> Oh yeah. So in some sense I wonder is
this one version of how humans evolved
because we always think about this
village of like a hundred people you
know um you know Bob Sapolski talks
about this and you know we we evolved in
these cultures of 100 or 200 folks and
you knew everyone and everyone's in each
other's business and that's how our our
species evolved. At the same time we we
have different examples of of sociology
>> and that strangers weren't around as
much was the idea.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. It's it's hard to say. I don't
know. Certainly today, if you look
around the world, there is and always
has been some anxiety about connecting
with strangers. And it can vary
depending on where you There's some
places where there's more sociability
than in others, but there's always been
some anxiety about the other, the one
you don't know, right? Because you don't
know necessarily if I can trust you or
not in this moment, whether that comes
from our evolutionary heritage or not,
or just unfamiliarity with anything,
right? So, if you know, if you give me
something to drink here, I don't know
what's in it. I'm going to be a little
nervous. I want to find out before I
drink it. If I trust you, I'll drink it.
But if I don't, you know, I'm not so
sure. I'm going to want to see what's in
there first. There's always some anxiety
about the unknown or uncertainty. And it
could be a lot of stuff about strangers,
a reluctance to connect with other
people, desire to keep with the folks we
already know comes simply from that,
right? Which which also would apply to
non-human interactions too or non-human
objects as well. We just like what's
familiar because we know it. and and we
trust it and we're comfortable with it
as a result. Everything else by
comparison is a little bit riskier.
>> I can't say I'm particularly outgoing or
not, but I was taught manners
>> that had me ask how people's day was
going. Like if I'm checking out the
grocery store, it's like, "How's your
day going?" And I'm interested like it's
not just an icebreaker like how's your
day going? You hold the door for people.
You say please and thank you. I I think
a lot of people assume that manners
equates to small talk equates to
superficial
>> and that it's all a bunch of fluff that
it's not about deep connection. But when
I'm moving through the, you know, the
checkout line at Whole Foods,
>> I don't have a lot of options.
>> Y
>> if I say nothing, okay, these days no
one would notice. They could be on their
phone. No one no one would call that
abnormal. If I say, "How's your day
going?" and they go, "I'm pretty good."
If I say, "What did you do before you
got here?" That's that's getting a
little bit further down the line, right?
Um, if I say like, "What's the hardest
thing that ever happened?" You know,
they're going to look at me like I'm
crazy, right? So, what I wonder is when
we talk about manners and etiquette,
which I believe there's been a real kind
of erosion of at the level of
>> kind of what is standard, right? Um, for
whatever reason, we just don't have an
etiquette everyone follows. All it used
to be all men wore jackets and ties or
at least ties to work. I mean now you
show up and whatever, right? I do think
that as manners have
>> become less common or common manners
have become less common
>> that the opportunities for casual
low-level exchange have evaporated.
>> Yeah.
>> And so there's less of a stepping stone
to deeper exchange.
>> Yeah. So I would think about manners
kind of as habits, right? That's kind of
what they are. and and some
sensibilities about about other people
being kind and decent to other people
but understanding how those manners
might be affecting day-to-day behavior
is a little bit tricky. So one of the
things for instance we find like in in a
lot of public spaces people are
reluctant to engage with other people
because they don't want to interrupt
they don't want to be impolite. There's
a version of that that is about manners,
right? And we have some sometimes we're
getting signals of that tech gives us
signals that somebody doesn't want to be
bothered perhaps like we put ear buds in
or we look at our phone, right? And so
some of that could be coming from what
you might think of as as manners. In the
UK, for instance, one of the reasons we
we find just well just this true in the
US too, but even a little more so in the
UK, there's this norm of politeness that
I it's not okay for me to get into your
business. In Japan, it's even stronger.
Right? I don't want to. And that's seen
as being polite.
>> Right? In those contexts, I am with you
though that this general norm of saying
hello or hi to people has gotten
diminished a little bit in part because
people I think are getting out of the
habit because you got these you got
these got these phones on you all the
time. But I think I think it's a little
trickier. It's a little harder to say
maybe that manners have eroded because
they're complicated out in the world.
stuff that looks like could be a lack of
manners in one context could in people's
own minds be no I'm I'm being polite to
you by not interrupting. It's tricky.
>> Yeah. I mean I hear from a lot of
podcast listeners that the challenges
with, you know, finding a romantic
partner nowadays center largely around
people not wanting to be seen as creepy,
but also people not wanting strangers to
talk to them. So there's a little we're
a little bit of an impass right now. I
also hear from people who wonder why uh
guys aren't
>> asking them out just kind of randomly or
asking them for a coffee or for a number
or something like that. I think there's
a lot of fear right now is what I hear.
>> Yes.
>> And that fear is probably well it
certainly is on both sides.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, you said you had an in-depth
conversation with your Uber driver on
the way over here.
>> I mean I used to be that I would get
into
>> deep conversations on airplanes. It just
seems like we're we're stuck in this
cap. I did last night coming out to
>> the only downside being sometimes uh if
your neck is turned to one side, you
couldn't get off that plane with a with
a stiff neck. But in all seriousness, so
are you one to just open up conversation
with people at random? Yeah.
>> In part because we got to we could go
back a long way to start. I'll start at
the beginning of our research, but I'll
keep this simple. I've interpreted
reaching out and connecting with other
people differently. We find in our work
that people underestimate how interested
others are in engaging with them. So
you're sitting next to somebody on a
plane or on a train and people if you're
not already talking, you assume this
person doesn't want to talk to you, but
that person is more likely to say
they're interested in talking to you
than you would guess. But if you got two
people that aren't talking to each
other, this gets back to our earlier
conversation, how I can use somebody's
behavior as a guide to their thoughts.
in this case, making a mistake. I can
infer you're not interested in talking
to me if you're not. And you could be
thinking, well, Nick's not talking to
me. He's not interested in it either. We
can both then sit there, both be
interested in talking to each other, but
nobody's saying a word because we
misunderstand what silence is like,
right? Or we assume that people don't
want to have meaningful conversations
when in fact, most people say that's
actually what they want. So, I've
adopted a different way to think about
manners here in a way that I think
attends more to both my own well-being
and the person who I'm connecting with.
I think about social connection as an
opportunity or an invitation to connect
with somebody. And to your point about
fear, we find over and over again people
are overly pessimistic, overly afraid
about how positively other people will
respond to them when you reach out to
them in a positive way. So like with the
Uber driver on the way here today, I
just he was Iranian. I asked him, "How
do you feel about the war? Can you can
you tell me about it?" And it was clear
that I was not wanting some superficial
response. I cared. I was taking an
interest in him and he recognized I was
taking an interest in him and he
responded by taking an interest then in
me and feeling comfortable sharing. And
he I mean he shared that his son died in
a protest in Iran and that he had been
imprisoned in Iran. And I mean it we
were crying but together at the end of
that at the end of that ride it's 23
minutes to get here.
>> The fact that you're able to connect for
a short while. I'm assuming you didn't
exchange numbers. You're not going to be
in touch. Yeah. So so the point is not
to create a lasting relationship. The
point is to connect
>> to make that moment better. Yeah. I
mean, and I think actually this is a
really important way to rethink how you
think about well-being.
Well-being is not just about the
intense, you know, the the really
impactful moments in your life.
Happiness and well-being is a little
more like a leaky tire. Like you just
got to keep pumping it up because you
adapt to things, right? You you go on
this amazing trip, you know, to out into
the beautiful Sonoran desert or
something, right? And that's great. You
come back the next day and then you got
traffic coming to work and that sucks,
right? you're right back to where you
were before. It doesn't last. I mean,
nothing really lasts for that long.
Obviously, relationships can last, but
but moments come and go, right? And what
that means, I think, for our well-being
is that we want to start paying
attention to creating good moments,
right? Positive moments that can lift us
up and the people around us as well. And
you can take I could have gone 23
minutes here uh to talk with you today
and had a perfectly boring ride or I
could have heard one of the most amazing
stories about somebody's life where he
opens his heart up to me in this car
ride in 23 minutes and made that 23
minutes way better and connect with
another human being more deeply than
than you might imagine would be possible
in that short time and make that moment
better. My day is better because that
moment was better. And if you start
thinking about happiness and connection
in terms of moments rather than some
sort of illusion of some lasting
long-term impact, well then you start
seeing opportunities to connect all over
the place. Right? On my plane flight in
last night did that, right? In the
grocery store store check, you got an
opportunity. You know, I now keep an eye
out. I I just pay attention. I take an
interest in other people. The research
that I've done here on social connection
has fundamentally changed the way that I
live my life. I take an interest in
other people. So, I notice stuff that I
didn't used to notice. I'll throw out
compliments. Any kind thought I will
share with somebody. I just don't have
anxiety about that. Keep moving on. If
right, if if I'm passing, I'll shout out
like this morning. I got breakfast at
the hotel I was at. Guy's wearing a
killer hat, right? I'm walking by. Hey
man, I love your hat. That's awesome.
Right? I'm walk by say I love it too.
Right? And I just kept going. But that
moment was a little brighter. Right? And
what's a good day if not to string along
a few good moments? And what's a good
week if not to string along a few days
that have some good moments in them? And
what's a good month, a good year, a good
life? It's about those moments. And we
got lots of those moments. And if we
start thinking about them in terms of
opportunities to connect, to be decent
to another person in a way that'll
really use the skill we have to connect
with other people instead of being held
back by misplaced fear. changes the way
you live your life.
>> I'd like to take a quick break and
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Yeah, I'm listening to you and I'm
thinking uh some of the best moments of
my life and I've had many many are
really at this kind of level of in
passing.
>> You know, you mentioned like in my mind
I was saying like never underestimate
the the good feeling that comes from
like a good fist bump with someone that
you exchange no words with. You bet.
>> And I live in a very crowded area and so
I don't go out much but when I do
occasionally you just pass someone on
the sidewalk, you just like put out a
fist and like and you feel a kinship.
>> Yeah. Um the other day also um I have a
very niche but uh very deep relationship
to a certain genre of music. So just
like walking down the the boardwalk and
someone goes someone like shouted out I
was wearing a minor threat shirt. I'm
big Ian Mai fan minor threat fugazi and
uh someone goes minor threat and I go
minor threat. I don't even know where
they were you know and so like and like
they I mean you know it's a you know I'm
dating myself here by by saying that but
still amazing band right? No matter how
old you are check it out. Um, but uh,
you know, you feel a kinship to other
members of your species that way. I
don't know who these people are. It's
interesting. It it's it's a whole other
level of of human connection that I
hadn't thought of. And
>> as with manners and etiquette and that
kind of superficial small talk piece,
>> I kind of assumed that that this stuff
didn't matter, that it was kind of like,
ah, well, okay, that's like that's not
nourishment. That that's not a that's
not a nice like elk steak or beautiful
vegetable spread. that that's the that's
like a that's like a cracker, you know,
but the comparison isn't fair because
ultimately, like you said, our life is a
series of moments and the feeling that
our species has a kinship that isn't
based on anything else. There was no
exchange of money or opportunities or
any of that is is pretty awesome.
>> Sense we're connected. We're in this
together in some way. There's a there's
a a hypothesis that that many of my PhD
students and postocs over the years have
suggested and that we've talked about,
but we have never figured out a way to
actually test it. But some sense that
when you interact with with a stranger,
a member of a group of some kind,
but a stranger is a good example. It
doesn't just make you feel connected to
that person. It kind of changes your
sense of connection to like the entire
group. Like you just feel a little
better about humanity when you see that
moment. Like you deliver a compliment to
somebody. I was walking down the
sidewalk
um just a little bit ago on my way to
the train there was a woman standing
next to a car and she just had these
awesome red glasses on. They just look
fabulous. And I said to her while we're
going by, I love those glasses. You are
killing it today. and she took him off
almost it didn't she wasn't going to cry
but she she stopped and she said thank
you so much for telling me that I really
needed that today
>> right I had met her in a moment where
she had a bad day and my sense is she
just felt uplifted just like by people
in general by the world just had a more
favorable view of what the world was
like a different view of what human
nature was like in that moment
>> than you otherwise would have had
yesterday on my train ride into
University of Chicago before I got on a
flight to come here to see you. Sit down
next to a young man on the train. He's
got his earbuds in looking at his phone,
you know, easy stereotype young man,
disconnected from the world. I sit down
and I said I sat right next to him. I
said, "Hi." I reached out. I'm Nick. I
to shake a hand. He he came back with a
fist bump rather than a handshake. But
then he took out his right earbud and I
started talking to him. I said, "You
know what? What are you up to today?
What you what are you what are you going
to town for?" and he said, "Well, I'm
I'm going to this culinary program
downtown." And what was so crystal clear
right away was how proud he was that he
was doing this. He'd come from LA,
actually, and he was just started
getting into this training program, this
trade school to get him into this
culinary union where he was going to
work as a chef for maybe for a hotel or
a big restaurant. He pulled out his
book, uh, his little three- ring binder
that had his lessons for it. I actually
took a picture of it. I have a I have a
son who's entering a trade program right
now. Uh, I've never seen him happier in
his life than when he's doing this. And
he was flipping through showing me what
they were doing today. He was just so
proud of what he was doing, so ready to
talk with me about this. His name was
Gustavo. Um, delightful young man. And I
remember leaving that conversation just
like feeling better about about my kids,
just about kids in general. Like here's
a kid who's really trying to make it.
And that felt good. not just about this
young man Gustavo who I felt fortunate
to spend 30 minutes that made that 30
minutes much better but kind of
uplifting about the entire category that
he was from and what's interesting is
how easy it is to your point about
manners say to avoid that out of fear he
doesn't want to talk to me he's not that
interested in having a meaningful
conversation me doesn't want to go there
right but in fact that's the thing we're
all dying for it's super interesting I
never thought about this aspect of
social dynamics. Um, yes, manners. Um,
uh, both my parents are very polite.
They taught us to be polite. My, uh, my
girlfriend comes from the south, so
she's like very polite. Like manners are
like a big thing. Uh, and she's a
genuinely kind person. That's why I
think people hear like manners and
kindness and they think, oh, like it's
it's fake, but it's not. It's it's a
it's a real it's it's part of the the
social fabric, right? Not that I'm the
data point that matters, but I assure
anyone who uh aspires to be a public
facing person, the thing you give up
when you're a public facing person is
this.
>> Oh, really?
>> Yeah. It's interesting. And and it's a
and for somebody like me, um it uh you
know, it's it's compensated for by the
other things you gain, right? But but
that disappears, right? Um not with
everyone, right? Um but it disappears.
And so I'm as you're saying this, I
actually realize I like have a little
bit of nostalgia about like just being
able to like go out and interact with
people and sometimes it happens, but a
lot of times the things revert back to
to the podcast or things which I really
love. I love it when people roll up and
have questions and everyone knows me
that like I'll give a podcast right
there. If someone has a question, I'm
going to give an answer.
>> Sit down for two hours.
>> Well, I'm I always I mean I'm genuinely
interested in them. I'll be like, "Where
are you from? What's your name?" I'm
genuinely interested. I'm not asking it
like to deflect. I'm really interested.
Um, but the the anonymous brief exchange
that reinforces
our and their understanding. It's not
like a belief. It's like an
understanding. It's a feeling that like
we're part of the same species and like
>> you know that is a an incredibly
powerful and reinforcing thing. I think
I mean especially for me I'm very
affiliative. I I can imagine and I'll
I'll just table this possibility that
there are some people who are not as
affiliative. You know, I I know one or
two people whose names I won't mention
who don't really it's not that they
dislike people, but unless it's their
family, they're not really interested in
other people. They're just not. And I
can't say that they're unhappy. They
like their family. They like their
books. They like their movies. And we
could say that they would be better off
if they, you know, uh were different.
But they don't seem to really
like other people. They don't dislike
them, but they've got their people and
then there's everyone else.
>> Yeah.
>> And the idea that like they would
interact with these other people except
in, you know, professional
circumstances, I think to them is kind
of foreign,
>> but I'm making a lot of assumptions
here, too.
>> So, you can find situations where
everybody seems to act that way,
>> right? Like on my train coming into
Chicago every morning where nobody's
talking with their looks like nobody
cares about other people. they don't
have any interest in talking to other
people. In those kinds of situations,
when you ask people to connect with
somebody else,
everybody kind of gets lifted up.
>> If you look across, say introversion and
extroversion, a common hypothesis is
that extroverts get their energy and
their enjoyment from connecting with
other people, whereas folks who are more
introverted get their energy and
enjoyment from keeping to themselves.
Right? That's what they want. The data
just don't support that. M so this we've
known for a long time. So extraversion
is correlated with well-being with
happiness. Going back to 1980, one of
the very first papers that ever one of
the very first studies that ever tested
is personality related to well-being. An
easy hypothesis is no. It's not. It
can't be because right people get what
they want out of their lives, right? And
everybody's equally happy because you
know extroverts connect with other
people. They reach out. They care about
other people. Introverts don't care as
much about other people or they they
have other preferences to keep to
themselves or have deeper meaningful
conversations, right? But everybody's
getting what they want. So
theoretically, there should be no
correlation at all between personality
and well-being. And that just isn't
true. Correlation between happiness,
positive affect day-to-day, and
extraversion is.5.
That's huge. That is big. That's like
the correlation between the heights of
fathers and sons. That is a big
correlation, right? It's a little weaker
with things like satisfaction with life.
It's a little more like.3, but that
correlation is big and it shows up
around the world, right? But 1996, Ed
Deer, one of the founding figures in in
the science of happiness or or
well-being, stated, you know, the
foundational result in personality
science is that extroversion is
correlated with well-being or happiness.
The more outgoing and extrovert you are,
the more you connect with others, the
happier you are. Lots of reasons why
that could be. There's a third variable.
Maybe extroverts are just happier than
introverts to begin with, say. But it
raises question. Maybe it's something
about how they're the choices they're
making, the habits they're developing,
how they're actually behaving. And so
that makes an easy prediction that well,
what happens if we just ask people to
reach out and connect more with other
people, to act a little more
extroverted? Does it affect their
well-being? It could this be like a
well-being intervention? And it turns
out it is. Will Fleeon, a psychologist
at Wake Forest University, was one of
the very first people to do this
halfhour lab study asked people to act
more extroverted or more introverted.
When people acted more extroverted, they
reported feeling more positive in that
experiment. When you ask people to act
more introverted, they felt less
positive regardless of where they fell
on this personality scale to begin with.
Over the course of a person's day,
extroverts and introverts report feeling
better alike when they're spending time
with other people than when they're with
than when they're alone. You ask both to
spend more time connecting with other
people, being extroverted over the
course of a day, a week or more. Sonia
Luberki, uh, psychology professor at UC
Riverside has done us done some of the
best research on this over the course of
two weeks. You shift the well the
positive affect meter up across the
entire extroversion scale when people
are connecting with others compared to
when they're acting introverted. I think
what differs here between the folks
you're describing who don't seem to get
along well with others or like other
people or don't seem to care as much
about other people and folks who who do
are the habits that they have developed
a little like exercise I think is the
way to think about it. Some of us choose
to exercise a lot. Uh you choose to
exercise a lot clearly. I don't like
you're former you play football and you
wrestled competitively.
>> Basketball
and football. Yeah. No, I avoided
wrestling cuz I wanted my ears to keep
looking good.
>> Your ears look good. Yeah.
>> Um, yeah, but you know, I struggle to
find the time for so I I don't choose to
exercise as much as I should now, right?
But we all would feel better if we
exercised a little more regardless of
what our habits are. So what the data on
this suggests is that
>> yeah, if people open themselves up a
little bit more to other people, try to
reach out and connect in positive ways
with other people. The porcupines in our
lives are not making themselves happier
by keeping their quills out and keeping
to themselves. They're not living quite
as good a life as they as they could
live if they chose to live a little
differently now whether they choose to
or not, right? Whether you exercise or
not is not like a necessarily a moral v
virtue. Somebody doesn't exercise. You
can't say you have to exercise. But if
you wanted to lift your life up a little
bit, reach out and engage a little more
often as what the data suggests.
Regardless of where you are on that
spectrum,
>> I realize it's not your specific area of
work, but what about for people with
social anxiety? Yeah. I mean, my first
impulse is to say, as long as you have
the resources and the time, get a dog.
You know, I'm not a big fan of dog
parks, um, for all sorts of health
reasons and but when I lived in San
Diego, like
>> I would take my bulldog mastiff puppy to
the dog park. I made lots of friends. He
made friends and a dog is better than
buming a cigarette, which nobody does
anymore, right? Tons of people that way.
>> So, what's interesting about that is
that that that creates like an excuse to
have a conversation,
>> right? like the well no one I'm not
suggesting anyone do this but in the old
days like you would you would ask for a
cigarette you and you would then smoke
then you would smoke side by side with
somebody and you'd talk and sometimes
there was a romantic interest sometimes
it was just a a friendly interest but
you shared a brief experience you
>> got some nicotine in your system which
no doubt
>> and they gave something to you right so
they they shared resources with you and
so there's trust that's being
>> yeah that was a very common um mode of
exchange um until about people really
stopped doing that kind of in the
>> mid9s is when smoking really dropped
off.
>> So, what's interesting about that, I
think those tokens, the dog or the
cigarette are serving to work our way
around our anxiety a little bit that we
have about connecting with other people,
I don't think they're necessary, right?
They're not necessary, but they do help
to get around that anxiety. But to to to
people who have social anxiety, it's a
it's a it's a painful thing, of course,
and it's hard. We all have it to some
extent are nervous about reaching out
and engaging with other people in
varying degrees. Some of that just being
a function of how often we do it. When I
was in graduate school, for instance, I
I was terrified of public speaking.
Before my first before my first job
interview, which is my fourth year of
graduate school at Princeton, I got
super lucky to get this job interview. I
was terrified.
>> Terrified. My job,
>> you seem so fasile with with it now.
>> Now I am. Yeah. Now I am. Right. This is
25 years of practice and experience and
exposure. And if you have social anxiety
disorder and you want to take care of
that, this is something psychologist
clinicians can really take care of.
There are lots of things that a
psychologist we can't really deal with
behaviorally. Social anxiety is
something we really can help people with
for um for this book uh a little more
social that I that I just wrote. Um I
had a conversation with the guy who is
responsible for really developing
exposure therapy to treat anxiety
disorder. Stefon Hoffman is his name.
And essentially the the the strategy is
very simple. If you are afraid of
talking with a stranger, having a deep
conversation, the way to get over that
is not to simulate it or to imagine.
It's not like you get up and you you
give a pretend speech. That's what
psychologists were doing for years. It
doesn't work because it's still
pretending. It's you're not a real
audience. It has to be real. And that
was Stefon Hoffman's real uh innovation
is you send people out in the world and
to do the thing for real. You're worried
about getting rejected. Go out and start
asking people for help and you'll learn
that your fear is misplaced, that you
get accepted more often than you might
guess. Exposing people to that thing
that they are anxious of. When the
belief is misplaced and with social
anxiety, it is usually wildly misplaced.
That's what we find over and over again
is a mistaken barrier to connecting with
other people that then that's how you
you ease that social anxiety and get rid
of it. Now, exposure therapy doesn't
work for everything. If you're afraid of
bullets, right, you're afraid of getting
shot by bullets, right? Repeated
exposure to being shot by bullets is not
going to make you less afraid of that.
That's going to be one trial learning
and that's going to be the end of it.
But when your fears are misplaced, like
it is with social stuff, exposure is
what is what takes care of it. Not
because you do you dullle your anxiety
so much. It's because you change your
beliefs about what other people are
like. You learn, oh wait, other people
are nicer than I think. When I say hi to
somebody, they tend to say hi back. When
I take an interest in somebody, they
tend to say take an interest in me. When
I ask somebody for a cigarette, they and
they have one, they tend to give me one
when I ask for it. And it makes this
nice conversation. Changes your beliefs.
That's why exposure therapy works.
That's really interesting and a bit
surprising. I completely believe it as
you say it, but that exposure therapy
doesn't reduce your anxiety per se. It
changes your beliefs about how other
people are going to react. Yeah. Which
indirectly feeds back and changes how
you feel.
>> Let me give you a story about somebody
who I got connected to a little bit
while I was writing this book. Gia Giang
is his name. And Gia uh he lives up in
the Bay Area. Well, at least he did at
the time. I I think that's still where
he is. He was a he was an aspiring
entrepreneur. You can find him at
rejection theapy.com which is his
website where he put this uh together.
He's got all these videos. They're
amazing. He decided he was an aspiring
entrepreneur and he uh but he was afraid
of rejection and he decided he was going
to cure himself of this fear of
rejection by subjecting himself to
exposure therapy. And he'd heard of this
that you do this for a month, right? The
Stefan Stefan Hoffman work. you're going
to he's going to try to to make some
outlandish request every day for a month
and get rejected every day. But because
his anxiety was so bad, he needed more
than a month. He needed 100 days. So he
was 100 days in a row he was going to
ask somebody some ludicrous request so
that he would get rejected and then he
was going to develop thick skin, right?
He was going to become immune to
rejection. He was going to toughen
himself up. He was going to desensitize
himself. Okay. First day he goes up to a
security guard and he videotapes all
these. So you can find these online.
They're they're beautiful. Uh he goes up
to somebody at a bank, like a security
guard outside of a bank, and he asks
him, "Can I borrow $100 from you?" And
the security guard says, "Uh,
that's that's not how this works,
buddy." Uh, and and so walks away. Ah,
success. I got rejected. But then he
says, "But it actually wasn't that bad,
right?" He thought the rejection was
going to be harsh, right? Middle fingers
blazing, swear words coming, somebody
punch him in the face, whatever. He
thought it was going to be harsh. It
wasn't that bad. By the third day, he
starts to fail. He goes into a Crispy
Cream Doughnut store in Atlanta, goes up
to the desk. Woman named Jackie Braun is
kind of managing the shift there that
day. She comes up and he he comes to the
counter and he says, "Can I get crispy
cream donuts in the shape of the Olympic
rings?" Shape and color Olympic rings.
Right. And he's thinking, "Oh, they're
going to say, "Uh, we don't do that
here." Um, and instead Jackie sits down,
gets in her thinker pose, and starts
drawing on a piece of paper what the
Olympic rings are. What colors are they?
We don't know. They're trying to figure
this out. So, just wait a minute. Goes
GI goes and sits down. 15 minutes later,
she comes out with a box of donuts a
little sheepishly because she thought
she could have done better and there are
these Olympic rings that are amazing.
The voice over on his video is something
to the effect of, and this is why
humanity is worth saving. Over the
course of his 100 days, he doubles up a
few days. He ends up with like 106
requests. We Don Lions, who was my lab
manager at the time, uh went through and
evaluated all of those requests that he
posted and we just asked how often was
he actually rejected. Walks up to a
house in Texas and ask the guy at the
house, "Would you take a picture of me
playing soccer in your backyard?"
Yeah. Yes. Is the answer. There he's
playing soccer. He walks up to a
Southwest Airlines gate. He's getting on
a plane. says, "Can I do the security
briefing at the beginning and says,
"Well, you can't do that." But you can
address the entire plane if you want.
So, there he is standing in front of the
entire plane addressing this plane.
Right? He um he goes to another airport,
a private airport, never flown a plane
in his life. He asks, "Can I co-pilot a
plane?" Right? Can I do that? Yeah, he
does. He gets it done, right? Walks up
to a woman's house. He's got a potted
rose, pink rose. Can I plant this in
your front yard? Oh, I love roses. You
bet. Put it right there. He actually is
rejected less often than he is accepted.
And we coded the videos for how negative
they are. Mostly not negative at all.
Only about seven out of those hundred
times. Is there any negativity
whatsoever? And if anything, it's just
slight. Sometimes people can't do it
right. So, so he's he's he's accepted 51
times if I remember right, and rejected
48 times. And then there are a few that
are ambiguous where he can't do the
thing he asked for, but they do
something else. Um, but out of all
those, only a few times is there any
negativity. When I was talking to him
about this, he said, "I went into this
thinking I was going to develop thicker
skin. I lost my fear of rejection, but
it was because I changed how I think
about other people. Other people are way
kinder than I expect." And he talked
about this now, this belief he he has as
being a kind of superpower cuz he
realizes that if you ask people for
help, they are much more interested in
trying to help you than you'd imagine.
And that's why exposure to mistaken
beliefs like our social anxiety works
because you learn that your beliefs are
wrong. But if you never test them, you
never find out you'd be wrong. How
persistent was he? For instance, if he
asked a question and the person said,
"Listen, uh, you can't come back and
play soccer,
but maybe the front yard." Would he say
backyard, please?
>> Or if they said no outright,
>> you know, he would he push? he wasn't
that persistent um in these things and
this jia's experience is very consistent
with what we find in the research
literature as well. There's a phenomena
Frank Flynn and Vanessa Bones, Franks is
at is at Stanford, Vanessa's at Cornell,
both fabulous researchers, documented
this phenomena known as the
underestimation of compliance effect,
which is you ask people to predict what
percentage of people or how many people
will agree to some request. And the very
robust tendency is that they they
overestimate how many people they'll
have to ask in order to get some number
to agree to a request. People are just
much more likely to agree than you
think. We find in our research that not
only are they more willing to agree to
the request, they also feel much better
when they agree to help you than you
would guess. You ask somebody to take a
picture of you down along the boardwalk
on in LA, right? You think you're you're
you're you're pestering somebody, right?
You're being a burden to them. They're
usually happier to have helped you
because we are happier when we are being
kind to other people. So So Gia's result
is consistent with all of this work. in
his videos. He was not that persistent,
but he would often accept other
alternatives. So, he goes into Costco
one time, goes up to the manager, he
says, "I love Costco. It's just my
favorite store. Can I go on the intercom
and tell the entire store how much I
love Costco and how fabulous I think you
all are?" And the manager says, "Well, I
can't let you do that, but we can go get
lunch over here at the, you know, the
pizza shop that's in Costco and we can
spend some time talking." And so he
comps him a lunch and they he gets a
free lunch out of him and that's what
that's what he does. So there were a few
and like on the Southwest Airlines thing
he couldn't he couldn't do the security
briefing
>> but he could just address the whole
plane flight which is what he did right
so he would accept those those and those
were the few cases where it wasn't
outright accepted but if he got a no he
said thank you and that was it. I don't
want to give anyone social anxiety
because you just provided a wonderful uh
or I don't want to discourage anyone
from uh from doing what you just
described because it's a it's a really
both entertaining and beautiful example
of the goodness of humanity um really
being a fundamental feature of of
>> most surprisingly. So it's not the case
that everybody's always of course not
but it tends to go he thought he'd be
rejected 100 days in a row. Y
>> he wasn't.
>> You have data. I just have an anecdote.
Um, so the fact that I'm going to tell
you that uh
>> a piece of the that anecdote comes from
a neurologist does not mean it has any
more validity than an maybe even less.
That was a joke against my neurology. I
have great jokes about neurologists. By
the way, I could do an entire podcast
about the jokes against the different
divisions of medicine. Maybe I'll do
that sometime. We should do that. Rob
the uh so I had a posttock adviser.
Unfortunately, he passed, but that's not
the point here. He was a neurologist and
he was an extremely friendly person. His
name was Ben Baris. He used to walk down
the hall. He'd say, "Hi to the
janitors." He'd say, he was always very
good about bringing things to the the
admins up front. You and I both know
they are underpaid at at all un people
always say, "Oh, all the the
administrators like you got high level
administrators. I'm not going to comment
on what they make. I don't know." Um but
but all the administrators at the level
of like the front office, etc., they're
underpaid, they're overworked, and he
was just an extremely kind person. He's
just very um outgoing and um but he was
a neurologist.
in addition to being a scientist and he
pointed something out which was that
there would be some people who would um
that he would interact with on campus
and we were adjacent to the the
hospital. So this plays in who you'd be
friendly to like hey how's it going and
they say hey what do you do here and
you'd say oh well we work on neuronogal
interactions activity dependent
development of mileination and they go
oh cool like what's that and you'd have
a little exchange and then move on great
healthy they're learning they realize
academics aren't just trying to you know
hide their information no matter how
busy they are somebody just taking time
out of their busy pace to stop and have
an interaction with you this is
something that I grew up observing in my
mom and it's something that I just
naturally do and and enjoy so it's a lot
of what you described before,
>> but I'll never forget Ben once telling
me he said, "See this guy coming down
the hall. He's sticky." And I said,
"What's sticky?" And he said, "That's
neurologist speak for the person that
takes that
>> kind of casual exchange
>> and makes the assumption that you're a
lot closer than you actually are."
>> And as somebody with a sister, you know,
you grow up hearing stories of like, you
know, you hear through the wall, you
know, like, "Oh, some like, you know,
good-looking guy asked for a number,
excited about that." But some other guy
like he was pretty persistent and like
he wouldn't go away. I'm not talking
about full stalker situation that exists
too.
>> So I think a lot of social anxiety
>> comes from some people just don't know
>> where the line is between normal,
healthy, casual social exchange and
being too sticky.
>> Yeah.
>> And this takes us back to the eyes. I'll
never forget freshman year of college.
Forgive me for weaving in a second
anecdote. I had a roommate. We were
triple room, but I had a roommate and
feedback from people around us, they're
like, "What's wrong with your roommate?"
I'm like, "What do you mean?" He's like
the perfectly nice guy. Like he's super
nice. And they're like, "No, he stares
at people." And I thought, "Oh." And
he's he was very, very tall, you know,
and I'm reasonably tall, but he was like
really, really tall. And so I started
noticing when we would stand in groups,
he would just like beam people.
>> And so I pulled him aside and I said,
"Hey, listen, Dave. Um, you can't stare
at people." He goes, "I'm just looking
at them." And I'm like, I know, but you
can't stare at me. You're creeping
people out. And he goes,
>> okay, where should I look? Now, he might
have been a little bit on the spectrum.
I don't know. We didn't have that
language or understanding about spectrum
back then.
>> But I explained to him, I was like, just
keep your gaze moving and stop
>> and and we all loved him like and he
became part of our social circle. But in
those first weeks of, you know, he was a
little bit he was make he was giving
people an uneasy feeling. So I think for
a lot of people who have social anxiety,
>> their concern is that they're going to
be perceived as kind of creepy or sticky
and no one wants to be that person.
>> And so it is an art.
>> It is a a learning to understand that
like a fist bump is one thing, but just
because you see that person again the
next day, you remember their name.
You're not best friends and you're not
even really friends. You're being
friendly. And I I I'm not trying to
contaminate the the the uh positive
waters here, but I think a lot of people
don't know how to develop this skill as
a as a honed skill and they're really
afraid and I think it's not about like,
you know, someone calling the police
because someone is being too sticky, but
yeah, like if somebody doesn't call you
back, like they probably don't want you
to ping them a third time, right? Or
text you again. And and I think a lot of
it always seems to to sort of
immediately deflect to like men doing
this to women. I can tell you a lot of
women do this too. So it's it's
independent of sex, right? If somebody
doesn't respond a third time and it was
a first time meeting and regardless of
what the exchange was
>> translation, they don't want to continue
the exchange for whatever reason. And so
how how do you reconcile that in when
giving advice for people to be more
outgoing? How do you keep people from
being sticky? I guess there's another
way to think about too is that is that
some a lot of uh sensitivity or concern
about um social anxiety is about running
into sticky people and there I think
there probably is a gender difference, a
sex difference that women are likely to
be more nervous about men
misinterpreting something in a way that
might become problematic or threatening
for them because a physical danger.
>> Exactly. And so I'm super sensitive to
that and and nobody I mean our data
don't suggest that you should be
ignoring risks or your senses about
what's risky. Um, but our data suggests
that your sense about risk is off a
little bit and there are times where you
might want to test some of those beliefs
and you might find some places where
you're mistaken. I think the important
thing from my perspective on this is
that if you're really pessimistic about
other people, it never gets corrected.
You never get to find the great people
to have a conversation with, right? But
it does also mean that you will
sometimes run into the people who aren't
so great to have a conversation with,
and you need to learn how to move on
from those people, right? We're not
friends with everybody. Certainly that
is true. But the other thing that you
mentioned was the importance of this
being a skill. It is something that you
learn to do as you practice. I have
become a better conversationalist. I
become a better public speaker. I become
better at doing this because I do it for
a living, right? And I choose to try to
do it and try to become better. And I
try to be when I'm interacting with
other people to be sensitive to them as
well. Our data don't suggest that you
should be reaching out to other people
in order to make yourself feel good. Our
data suggests that what feels good is
when you take an interest in other
people and you open them up to you in a
way that you would have avoided or
missed before. And you'll just have a
lot more positive experiences that way.
But it does mean being sensitive to how
they respond. And you do learn to do
this over time with practice. Just like
anything, you get better with practice,
right? And so for folks who are
concerned about starting or trying, my
suggestion is just like just like when
you're starting anything that you're
nervous about or hard, you you've never
exercised, the prescription is always to
start small. Pick a little thing that's
easy and safe. You know that person in
the office who you've seen for years,
but you don't know their name, just go
and say hi to them. Just see how that
goes. And then try that with somebody
else. Those are easy. Those are safe,
right? That's not that that's not that
difficult. Um, and you'll get better at
this over time, including figure out how
to do things like end conversations with
somebody who's too sticky or to move
along or like your adviser did to
recognize the person that's sticky and
then you can manage that a little bit
differently. Those are skills you
develop by approaching. You don't
develop them by avoiding. And you miss a
lot of people who are wonderful. My Uber
driver, right? The young man Gustavo on
my train ride yesterday morning. Brian
on my flight here uh to speak with you
today on my on my plane last night. You
miss a lot of great people too. And
that's that's what we find in our
research that I think is perhaps the
bigger cost. And just like GI found, he
he missed opportunities to get help from
other people and even to allow people to
feel better for helping him because he
was too afraid to ask. I'd like to take
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>> A lot of people are on their phones
texting with people they already know.
They have an established relationship.
presumably they're continuing to
maintain if not build those
relationships by doing that. And I think
that um going back to this uh eye gaze
thing from earlier, I eyes down into a
little box is it's a
>> thicker shell to break through, right?
Like I don't think any of us really feel
comfortable um interrupting somebody
texting or on a call.
>> Um I mean I wouldn't do that.
>> You would think of it as bad manners,
impolite.
>> Yeah. They're clearly in in a
conversation with somebody else. The
same way I wouldn't just walk up and
interrupt. Actually, yesterday I was a
social gathering. There was like three
people talking and these guys all knew
each other. I was the stranger in the
group and like you sort of learn like
how like what is this? You have to
quickly assess like what is this
conversation? So I said sorry I don't
know if I'm interrupting something
critical but if so I'm going to stand
right here. No, I just said uh if I'm
interrupting like I you know and they're
like no no no like like you have to be
able to know how to break into a
conversation. It's very hard when people
are on their phones.
>> It can be. Um the way I think of it is
you're giving people an invitation. I
got off the train one morning was this
guy came up behind me. I remember this
very distinctly. Uh he was a little
taller than I was. So I'm I'm I'm about
six foot. He was probably 6' three.
Looks like an Orthodox monk, right? He's
got this big long beard, graying beard,
long hair. Looks like you the last thing
he would want to do is talk to another
person. A very stern kind of dead off to
work face. And and I saw him come up
sidle up next to me. He had already put
his left earbud in and he was putting
his right earbud in at the same time,
right? It would have been easy for me to
infer that he didn't want to talk to me,
right? But of course, nobody was talking
to him either. Nobody's talking. And so
that signal was a little ambiguous. What
does it mean? Does he want to talk to
me? It's it's not clear. He could be
putting his earbud in because nobody's
talking to him. He doesn't think other
people want to talk to him. So, he's
just going to get off to work, right?
Get away from all these jerks. I turned
to him. I said, "Hi, I'm Nick. most
powerful words you have in your life.
Hi, I'm whoever you are. I'm Nick. He
took out his earbud and he turned to me
and he just like came alive like I was
flipping a switch on his back. Huge
smile. Hi, I'm Tibo. He's turns out he
was French. Very strong French accent.
We became friends over the years, right?
We walked down four blocks to my office
there. And so sometimes these cues can
be ambiguous. And you don't know what
the Q means until you test it. So the
way I think about reaching out to
connect with other people to test our
fears right our anxiety our
interpretations of other people knowing
that we can make mistakes with each
other is to think of it as an invitation
right when I turned to Gustavo yesterday
Brian last night my cab driver my Uber
driver this morning I wasn't demanding
anything I was offering up an
opportunity and invitation to connect if
they wanted to right have to pull their
earbud out Brian last night had a little
video game uh player in front of him,
right? I thought maybe he wanted to play
video games. No, he was happy to talk,
right? We kind of went in and out. I had
a manuscript review I had to do. But if
you start thinking of of these
opportunities as potential places where
you might be misunderstanding somebody
and don't take your beliefs about
another person for granted, but treat
them as bets that might be wrong. Well,
then you start to see places where maybe
you'd made a mistake and you give people
an opportunity to show you no, Tibo
would have been happy to talk to me and
became friends um over years just
because I was willing to test that
initial belief I had which was mistaken
that he didn't want to talk to me. And
the problem that at least we find over
and over again in our social lives is
all too often we infer immediately
p we have overly pessimistic
expectations about how other people will
respond to us when we try and we just
miss opportunities to connect with other
people that we could have across the
moments of our days, weeks, months,
years of our lives that would just
enrich our lives in lots of ways if we
were willing to test those barriers that
were keeping us from connecting with
other people to see if are they made out
of steel or is it a pasta noodle?
sometimes they're pasta noodles.
>> The data I've seen um suggests that more
and more people are going to church.
They're attending other religious
gatherings. You know, it seems that um
>> in recent
Oh, yeah. It's really on the upswing.
And and my guess is there are a number
of reasons for that. People want to meet
people with a certain set of of values.
Um maybe they are drinking less. Who
knows? You know, I I think a component
of those types of gatherings um are that
people generally are pretty friendly.
>> Yes.
>> It's pretty inviting. Absolutely. You
know, um I mean people still go to
festivals, too. Like I didn't go, but
Coachella was recently. People tend to
be in a good mood at festivals.
>> Yes. I was at TED last week. So, yeah.
So, I'm just, you know, we could pepper
with different examples and I think it
is important to do. So, I didn't want to
imply it was just just churches, but
these kinds of common gatherings where
people are there for their own reasons,
but also to interact with others,
including strangers.
>> Absolutely.
>> And I think this in my mind can be
pretty well explained by the fact that
people were indoors during the pandemic.
Um, a lot of people were anyway and and
um on everyone's on their phones more
and devices. So, attending venues where
there's um clearly a uh an impulse
towards interacting with strangers.
Actually, sauna gatherings are really
big in major cities. You know, people
not just sitting in a sauna facing out
like bleacher on bleachers, but in
around and doing breath work and you
know, so and on and on. So, it's it's
interesting. I think people really crave
this.
>> Earlier, you talked a little bit about
your family and adoption and uh I've
heard you say in a in a previous uh
podcast um that
>> you have a child or children who are
particularly outgoing and our youngest.
>> Yeah. So if you're willing, I don't um
would you share a little bit about that?
It was it's a very interesting and and I
think important example
>> into um well differences among humans
and and sometimes we think of
differences as good bad uh in this case
it was clearly an example of how
>> some people by virtue of being more
outgoing having less fear actually
afford themselves and others a uniquely
wonderful experience of life.
>> Yes. Yes. So, our youngest daughter, uh,
Lindsay has Down syndrome and Lindsay is
adopted from, we adopted Lindsay from
China. The research that I've been doing
over the last 15 or so years with my
collaborators where we're finding over
and over again how overly pessimistic we
are about how we how other people
respond to us when we reach out to
connect with them is has just really
changed the way I live my life. It is
sometimes hard to take behavioral
science research and apply it to
individual lives. But in my own life,
I've seen ways to do this over and over
again by testing some of these barriers
and just being more open to reaching out
connect, realizing it's going to be more
positive than I might imagine. So, um,
about 10 years ago, uh, my wife, this is
how this all got us to Lindsay in the
end, and it came right through our
research. I remember this so vividly. My
wife, we were three months into uh,
pregnancy. Um, we had already we had
named our daughter Sophie. At that
point, we had had four kids by that that
time. We were open to to more life and
and and Jen was open and 3 months into
the pregnancy, we learned our daughter
had Down syndrome. And my response to
that was to be very pessimistic. It was
uncertain. I didn't know how I'd never
This was not where my mind was. I didn't
think I wasn't thinking that we'd be
raising a child when when we're in our
40s with Down syndrome.
um this was this was going to be hard. I
know though how easy it is to
misunderstand how you'd respond in a
situation you're not in. And so my wife
and I and and I'm I'm not speaking for
my wife's thoughts. My wife Jen is an
angel. She's an amazing human being. As
my college football coach said when he
learned that I was a uh going to ask her
to marry me when I was a junior in
college. She said, "Nick," he said,
"Nick, you're marrying up." And he was
absolutely right about that, marrying
up. Um, but for me, I was nervous about
this. We started calling families who
were raising kids with Down syndrome.
Every one of those families trying to
get their perspective to learn what it
would be like to be in the situation we
weren't in. To a person, those families
referred to their children with Down
syndrome as a blessing. It was almost
like they were reading off of a script.
It was amazing to hear their stories
about how their children who did not
have much social anxiety were just were
very open and loving and create were
like magnets in their family that
everybody flocked around. They just
brought joy and love and a broader view
of what humanity could do with each
other than they'd ever imagined before.
Just enriched their lives, broadened
their worldview in ways they couldn't
have anticipated was a blessing. 6
months into our pregnancy, uh, Sophie
died. So, children with Down syndrome
face a much higher risk of of
miscarriage or still birth. 6 months was
a still birth. July 11th, 2016, our
daughter died. It was the worst. It was
horrible. It was the worst experience in
our marriage we had ever had. We mourned
that loss for a good long stretch. It's
about a year. One morning, I went into
the sun room. My wife was sitting there.
We had two chairs there where she she
was sitting in this chair where she
always sits. And I said, "You know,
honey, we were we were ready to have
another baby. We could do this again.
There's there are there are children out
there who need parents. We've adopted
before. We know how this goes. We can do
this again. We were ready. We were in
the starting blocks. We were ready to
go." And she turned to me and she said,
"Would you be open to adopting a child
with Down syndrome?" Had not even
occurred to me that that was something
we could do. I hadn't thought about it.
My head was not there. all over again. I
was back where I was 3 months before
thinking, I don't know that we can do
this, right? This is going to be super
hard. And then, you know, if you're a
researcher, you do think about your data
all the time. I started thinking again
about, you know, where we were three
months ago calling all these families
who talked about their kids' blessings.
All this data, thousands and thousands
of data points. By this point, as I'm
talking to you now, we've run over
30,000 people in over 120 experiments.
people reaching out to others,
documenting ways in which they're
underestimating how positively others
will respond. They're making the choice
to hold back too often rather than
reaching out and engaging, connecting
with other people too much. And and here
we had this choice right in front of us.
My wife was offering it. Do we reach out
and bring this child into our lives, the
stranger, or not? And I was full of
doubt here. All the same kind of doubt.
How would she respond to us? Our data
though gave me some courage here. like
datadriven courage like Nick you are in
the same position that all of your
participants are in over and over again
and it gave me courage to go where my
wife was and to say yeah we can do this
honey you and I can do this together now
Jen and I are in a position that's
different from lots of other families we
have resources she's a fabulous uh human
being we have a strong marriage we could
do raising a child with intellectual
disability is challenging but we we
could do this. And my data really made
me feel comfortable that it wouldn't
just be good, it would be surprisingly
good. About a year after that, Jen and I
boarded a flight with our four other
kids. We're like a traveling circus show
on our way to China. Um, folks had not
seen a family like ours to adopt
Lindsay. Two years old. She was
abandoned in China by a woman who we
will never meet whose thoughts we can't,
you know, about how hard this might have
been or how little support she had to
raise a child like Lindsay. We don't
know. Uh Lindsay had beautiful brown
eyes, relentless smile
despite a really really hard start in
life. And that was how that started. And
she has been amazing. She has been
flatout amazing. not not without
difficulty. Raising a child with an
intellectual disability is really really
really hard. At the same time, she has
been what every other family has said
that raising a child with Down syndrome
would be like a blessing to us in so
many ways. And to watch her go around
the world, I mean, she gets frustrated
and she's stubborn and she gets angry at
people, but she also lives without the
same kind of social anxiety that many of
us has. She has no filter on her hello.
Taking her grocery shopping is is super
fun. Goes up and down the aisles. She
says to hello to everybody. Everybody.
And it's like just like with my with my
friend Tibo who I flip the switch on his
back and he gives this big hello to me.
She flips the switch on so many people's
backs. Their faces light up when she
says hello to them. And she walks around
the world this way. Open hello to
everybody. It's amazing. It's amazing.
And I think about how close we could
have been, I could have been to saying,
"I don't think I can do this." Because
we failed to appreciate just how well
things would go when we reached out to
love someone, bring them into our lives
when we could. And she's amazing.
>> What an incredible story. Uh if you
don't mind me asking, uh what is the
relationship between your youngest
daughter and the other children in your
family? Um because it you know you
described a beautiful set of examples
with people outside your family and
obviously you and your wife have an
incredible connection to her. But but
what is uh her relationship to the
other?
>> She is the magnet in the family. I mean
she is the baby. Everybody just you know
if if you if you are in a family with a
a young you know a youngest sibling you
all glom around that youngest one. She
is like that too for the siblings too.
Now it's also hard. They need some time
alone, but they when you come home and
Lindsay is there, I get a hi dad. That's
of a volume that every dad should hear
when they come home. It is wonderful.
The sisters and the brothers all get
that, too. It's great. It's great. She
is very connected to everybody in a way
that I think even the other siblings
aren't potentially. They get older. They
go their own ways, but everybody loves
Lindsay. Is it the case that uh children
with down are given up for adoption
more? I mean you described a very what I
assume is a somewhat unique situation in
China. Somebody you said abandoned she
was given to an orphanage.
>> I so I don't know anything about this
right I actually had a colleague that
was like studied GABA transmission in
the brain of you know and down and like
you know but like I have I have zero
minus infinity knowledge of this. You
can adopt a child with Down syndrome
today in the United States and there's a
waiting list for these kids in most
places. The other thing that happens
though is what h what could have
happened to us at 3 months and I think
this is more common now is genetic
testing allows you to tell whether your
child has any number of different kind
of genetic um you know differences uh
diversity on that dimension. And look
there's some there's some conditions
that are just very very hard to manage
or that aren't conducive to life. Down
syndrome is just not one of those. But
many families at that 3month period
because they're skeptical or pessimistic
about how well they can handle this.
They don't know the supports that are
available. They don't realize the
strength that they owe that they that
they have or the amount of love that
they will feel for this child once it
becomes yours. Hardships
notwithstanding. It is harder. No doubt
about it. will end those pregnancies
when like us might have found it to be a
massive blessing in their lives. I don't
I don't know what to tell people to do
with that other than telling our own
story.
>> I think people have strength that they
might not realize and it there are lots
of very challenging conditions. Down
syndrome is one that is not as
challenging as you might imagine. These
kids are amazing. Amazing. And you know
our kids are our kids and and you know
even even like you know across as we
were talking earlier whether your kids
have come into how however kids have
come into your into your life once
they're your kids I mean the fact that
she has Down syndrome is something that
is always kind of on our minds because
it governs lots of things we do but it
also fades very quickly. Lindsay is just
Lindsay right she's got she's got her
own personality she does her own things
like the the intellectual disability is
just is kind of a becomes almost a like
a background thing. It is not what
defines her. She loves playing with
dolls and Disney characters. She loves
listening to stories. She loves reading
books with you. She loves loves loves
playing on the trampoline and playing in
her outdoor kitchen. She loves playing
with the neighbor kids, Demi and
Delilah. They are her closest friends.
She loves all those things. She has a
huge personality and that's what defines
her in our lives dayto-day, not the
diagnosis. M I only known you a short
while and I'm in no position to uh
psychoanalyze you, but I I have to
assume that um something very powerful
about you and I'm also assuming about
your wife Jen.
>> Yes,
>> that your very clear complete lack of
shame about the fact that she has down
is uh has to be a a positive um force
here in this. I I'm not trying to take
anything away from who she who Lindsay
is as an individual, but um
>> I don't know if I want to darken the
conversation with with a contrast story,
but I will I will I won't reveal who
this person is, but there's a very very
famous neuroscientist
um who it was pretty well known that he
had a son who had epileptic seizures.
>> I mean, what's the shame in that, right?
But he was ashamed of his son. He
wouldn't bring him to events. He
wouldn't bring him to things. I'm
actually aware of several uh highle
scientists and I don't I have to be
careful because I don't want to paint a
negative view of scientists. I could
tell you a thousand stories about
wonderful scientists doing wonderful
things for every for every bad story.
But I remember hearing this and thinking
like this is crazy. Someone who worked
in his lab said yeah you know he's got a
Nobel Prize but he he's incredibly
ashamed of his son. I thought like
that's nuts. I have a good friend in the
positive side, my good friend Eddie
Chang, who's the chair of neurosurgery
at UCSF and he works on epilepsy and
like you can treat various forms of
epilepsy. This wasn't intractable
epilepsy. So I think when parents have a
a shame about a child's what condition
>> that has to impact the way that the
child moves in the world. I think it's
really awesome that there is like zero
minus infinity uh shame detected. Like I
hear I hear only I hear only glowing
things and and pride and and I also
don't detect any hints of like we're
doing this really hard thing and
therefore we're we're amazing. But like
you said, she's just our daughter and we
have this relationship. We're her
parents. She's our daughter and like
we're just living life. Yeah. Which I
think is awesome. I think it's it's a
it's a real testament to who you are and
I think it's a real and your wife and
and Lindsay. And I think it's a
testament to like what's possible when
we get out of like what do people think?
>> It just seems like every all goodness
just emerges.
>> Not to be clear, I mean it's been a
struggle for me too. I don't want to
certainly paint myself as not having
concerns about this or being worried
what person will think about us or you
know even our other kids when they're
going through difficult stretches in
their lives. They're not doing the kinds
of things that maybe I did, right? I
have to
>> make myself okay with that and come to
accept that. And when I when I do that,
so I have another son who we just love
absolutely love dearly who college just
wasn't for him. You know, I'm a I'm a
PhD I'm a third generation PhD one on on
my mom's side and my dad is a PhD as
well and college is just the root,
right? I've been in academic life for my
whole college was just the root, but it
just wasn't for him and it just wasn't
engaging with it. And I I kept and I
mean this is I'm saying this with some
shame myself right now that we kind of
kept him in this path thinking this is
the right way to go and it was would
have been clear outsider that this isn't
what he wants to be doing he finally
came to us very clearly and said that
you know dad we this is just not what I
want to keep doing and when we finally
let go of that and just let him do what
he wanted to do which is now he's in a
trade school I've never seen him happier
we're just so proud of him now like the
like estabu I met on the train yesterday
morning taking this colony ary class.
He's so proud of what he's doing. Just
made me feel so good about him and also
about my son to let go of those things
and just to love him for who he is.
Every parent struggles with that. Every
parent struggles with loving their kids
for who they are and that takes some
practice too and also some deliberate
careful thought and attention. Um, and
it's worth challenging yourself to do
because of course it makes the world of
difference for them and we all struggle
to do that somewhat. With Lindsay, she's
a ray of sunshine. We refer to her
sometimes as a unicorn because there
aren't too many out there. You know, we
learned a little while ago. I don't know
how true this is. I don't know who comes
up with these things, but it turns out a
collection of unicorns. Do you know what
it is ostensibly called? A blessing.
>> Really?
>> Really?
>> That's awesome.
>> Who'd have guessed? I look I don't Yeah,
I I won't uh put that uh to some sort of
factual test. That is what they
apparently called as a blessing. And
that certainly has been what she's been
for us. a lot of lessons in there and
and a lot of um things for people to
think about in terms of who they are and
how they relate to to people. Um if you
don't mind, I I just would like to peel
back another layer on on uh
relationships with
>> um and I'll use the example of children,
but it could be with family other family
member where that person is not typical
of the
>> the average population. Um, and you
describe Lindsay in this uh in this
beautiful way. I almost feel like she's
like a bit in the room, right? You know,
the way you describe her. Um, and I
think when I'm out and about and I see
um a parent or parents with a kid who
has an I mean, I don't know what the
diagnoses are, right? How could I um an
intellectual or some some sort atypical
behavior? The way you describe her is
very delightful.
>> Yeah.
Sometimes the um the behavior of
children with with these um challenges
are disruptive.
>> Yeah.
>> It's hard to not feel the shame of the
parent, you know, like if a kid's being
really loud or throwing a tantrum and
this isn't a small child, for instance,
or saying things that clearly don't make
sense. And um I I don't expect you to
be, you know, the ambassador for all
these people. I think we we as um
sentient, well-meaning people around, we
don't quite know how to react to that.
Like, do you want to say, "Gosh, I'm so
sorry." No, of course not. Like that's
their life. You know, who are you? You
also don't want to
>> perhaps ignore them, but you also don't
want people to feel like you're calling
attention to them. Do you have any ideas
like or suggestions? I mean I mean it's
like
>> it must be it must be an odd experience
to move through life that way.
>> Um and I'm so glad they don't isolate
their kid.
>> Yeah.
>> But I think we've all been in this
circumstance and we don't quite know how
to react.
>> Yeah. So I think a good analog to this
is um is with stuttering. And I think we
all know how to deal with stuttering.
Somebody who has a stutter is you wait
patiently.
>> And you know, you don't call attention
to it.
>> You just wait patiently for them to
express what they want to express and
then you you carry on, right? And um
maybe sometime if you get to know
somebody, you can ask more specifically
about, you know, how would you like me
to to help in this particular case? Is
there anything I can do to be of
assistance? How how would you like me to
to respond? We can ask people that
directly, right? Um, and you know, often
often somebody a caretaker will will be
able to tell you that. But patience is,
I think, the way to to deal with just to
wait until whatever they're trying to do
becomes clear. And I think we can all do
that with stuttering. I think that's
kind of understood. And maybe that's the
way I would think about it. But yes,
some, you know, some differences are
harder than others. For sure.
>> Yeah. Having grown up in a town palalta
where there are many many professors and
high achieving parents and um I could
list off a dozen or more examples of uh
where the kids either didn't follow the
traditional track.
>> You could say oh they didn't follow the
traditional track but they became like a
puliting Pulitzer winning uh writer you
know or something like that. I'm not
talking about that. Right. I think it's
so cool by the way that your son is in
trades. friends that from all walks of
life and fulfillment is is
>> I've never seen our son happier.
>> Yeah. We're two academics. You know, my
dad's an academic and I I can say that
um I actually think I would have been
happy doing any number of things. At one
point I want to join the fire service. I
absolutely my dad every once in a while,
sorry dad, he'll say like, "Oh, you
know, I don't think that would have been
fulfilling." I think it would have been
awesome. Like work out the dog. Like I
love serving others. Like get out, you
know, and do things and we're I'm
friends with the local fire department
when they come through. Like I certainly
don't know what it is to do that
profession, but like
>> I think fulfillment can be found in a
number of ways.
>> Fulfillment is about engagement, right?
>> And people like firefighters. Being a
cop is a little tricky cuz some people
like you and some people hate you and
the job is much more
>> from moment to moment is a lot less
predictable.
>> I think one thing that we can do and I I
haven't always been great at this in my
family. I told you it took me a while
with my son to encourage him more down
that path and I'm just now realizing
that's what I need to be doing is to the
you know I think kids will also often
will feel like they are not following
the right path and won't feel good about
the path they're going down and that's
where parents can really be helpful. We
have right outside my office window is
the University of Chicago laboratory
school which is a very elite private um
high school and it goes all the way
through you know down to to preschool as
well and the kids come out of there with
a very clear expectation about what the
right path is for them and a lot of kids
struggle with that. I just had a faculty
member in my office yesterday before I
left to get on a flight with you
describing um how their children are are
struggling, I think, with expectations
for what they ought to be doing that
just don't fit with who they are. And I
think that's where parents can be really
helpful for their kids is loving them
for who they are and helping them find
what's going to make them the happiest
and telling the making sure the kids
know that any path is okay. You want to
be a carpenter, great. That job won't be
AIDed at least, right? or you know you
want to be get a PhD fabulous or
whatever field go for it right trying to
encourage kids with their passions and
encouraging them to feel like it's okay
that's important
>> you have another side of you that most
people aren't aware of that we somehow
landed on walking in here like somewhat
randomly which is um you enjoy a lot of
as much time as possible in the out
ofdoors you're a a hunter and a
fisherman an outdoorsman so you wanted
to be Grizzly Adams
>> yeah when I was a kid
>> but in some sense you you play him from
time to time, but not out on your own.
So, you and your and your sons sons and
daughters go get out into the
wilderness.
>> Yeah. I grew up in rural Iowa out in the
country. My dad and I went hunting and
fishing all the time when I was a kid. I
was four years old the first time I went
deer hunting with my dad. And I love
that time. Four. Yeah. I walked along
cuz we
>> shorter than the than the rifle.
>> Oh, yeah. No, I remember years where the
snow would feel like it was up to my
hips hunting deer in Iowa in early
December. And I wouldn't carry a gun
until I was 12 or or a bow. I started
bow hunting when I was 12. Um, but
before then you would you would push the
deer. You'd walk through the woods with
other guys with my dad or or with the
friends that we have. It was a real
community of people. I mean, the the
social connection there was great. We
used to go hunting with a a guy when I
was a kid, Lane McDow, who was friends
with my dad. He was a football player
for the University of Iowa and he played
for the Detroit Lions. It's just this
big monster of a man, fabulous guy. And
his son Thaad who would go who was also
my same age. We played football together
uh against each other in high school.
But yeah, I grew up doing that. And
then, you know, as I've gotten older,
I've stayed connected to the outdoors. I
love being in the woods. I love doing
conservation kind of work. There's kind
of an element of caring for other people
that also extends to caring for the for
the woodlands that are out there. I do a
lot of invasive species removal. We have
enrolled 40 acres in the conservation
reserve program, planted 9,000 trees on
it. And I see a lot of opportunities to
connect with people in places that other
people wouldn't. like I see the
outdoors, hunting and fishing. You
almost never do that truly alone, right?
You I always have somebody with me when
I'm fishing. I always have, you know, go
out with the kids when I'm turkey
hunting or hunting deers. And it's that
social element that is really so
important. And I and there was an
element of this that came, it just felt
like it came right out of my research
that happened last fall in Oregon. My
son, my oldest son, Ben, is a third-year
PhD student at Oregon State pursuing a
PhD there. Um, and bless his heart, last
spring he asked his dad to do the thing
that made me just the happiest he could
have done. He said, "Dad, would you like
to come out here and go elk hunting with
me?" Like I, you know, I'm grow up in
rural Iowa. The idea we'd be out in the
mountains actually doing this just never
was something that occurred to me that
we that we could do, but he asked if we
could do it. And I was so excited. We
would get a week together out in the
remote wilderness of Oregon, just the
two of us sitting around trees looking
for. It doesn't matter if you get one or
not, whatever. That's not what it's
about. It's about being out there and
seeing what what what you see and being
together. And it was going to be
fabulous. And uh I so excited. So last
fall, this was uh October, November, I
can't quite remember the exact date,
went into northeast Oregon, and we went
out into the uh out in the woods. We're
miles away from the nearest road. We
hike in. It's really hard. It's cold.
There's snow on the ground. We got We're
not really prepared for this. First time
we've ever done this. We don't have any
chairs with us or anything. We got
backpacking tents freezing our butts
off. Uh and the first day we go out to
scout, we don't know what we're doing
here at all. We're just going to see, I
don't know, where are the elk? How do we
do this? We go down into this valley and
we're not there for more than 20 minutes
maybe. When our time alone suddenly
becomes a little more social than it
would have been otherwise. We look
behind us like 3/4 of a mile up the
valley. You got this group of guys
coming in camo down the way. And my son
Ben was a little nervous about this,
right? A little anxiety about reaching
out and connecting with other people,
right? A little like you'd have somebody
sits down next to you train. Well, maybe
I'll just keep to myself or on a plan,
just keep to myself. Here we're out in
the wilderness and we got this group of
hunters. It's like a gang of men coming
down the down the valley towards us all
in camo. And so Ben's, you know, let's
let's move on, Dad. Let's let's get
going. And I said, "No, let's let's stay
and talk with these guys." And they
wait, they come down and we start
talking. It turns out these guys have
been hunting in this valley, in this
area for years, for decades. The older
guy, Dennis, had been going with another
older guy. I think they gotten connected
through their church. The the other
older guy had passed away recently, but
they now they have another guy, Corey,
who they who' gotten connected to them,
and the the kids are all with them,
Eric. And um and there were I think
there were there were five at the time
and we just started talking and then
they started telling us how to do this
and where we could go and how we could
coordinate with each other to make sure
we weren't you know we both had the best
time that we could and they told us well
there's a blind up here where you could
hunt and and you could go down there and
hunt in this other spot and we just
started working together and they were
delightful. Just like like just like it
is when you reach out to connect with
other people. They reach back to you.
They invited us to their tent for
dinner. I'll just never forget. They got
this huge this amazing wall tent.
They've got a camp stove. They've got a
a spring where they get fresh water.
They got a bathroom where they are. Uh
we walk into their tent. It's heated.
We're freezing our tukas off in the
snow. We walk into their tent. The first
thing they say to us, "Would you like
red or white?" They got wine in their in
their cabin miles from it. These guys
were fabulous. And it turned an event
that was great for Ben and I into an
even better event because we connected
with these men who now just yesterday
Corey sent me a text message saying,
"It's time to apply for your elk tags.
This is when we're going to go and this
we're going to come out in case you want
to do this with us again." And in fact,
Corey um Corey got an elk the first day,
right? He filled his bull tag. And we
were coming back from hunting. Ben and I
had seen one but weren't able to get a
shot at. It was still amazing to see
one. And we're walking back and the the
young young kids, Eric, uh, is leading
this group. He says, "Get on down there
and show Corey how to bone out that that
elk. I've boned out many many deer." So,
this the only red meat we eat of the
venison that that I get. And um, so I
know how to butcher these animals and
prepare them to to eat. And they had
just been hauling out these big quarters
of animals, like 100 pound rib cage,
right? There's a lot of bones that you
don't even haul out. So I got to go down
and help Corey and show him how to bone
out the backstrap and the loins and all
the meat that you actually eat and leave
the bones that are there for the you
know the cougars and stuff to get later.
And it it was it was it was fabulous
right and that the courage that I had to
talk with them to connect with them out
there again I felt just came straight
from our research that how easy it is to
underestimate how positively other
people respond when you reach out to
them. here. It would have been easy for
us to be competitive or avoid this. And
it was such a blessing to have connected
with them. And we've stayed connected
since. And I hope I hope we see him
again in the fall out there in the
woods. It would be fabulous. Wonderful
men.
>> That's awesome. And thanks for putting
in a a strong, clear uh ethical picture
of hunters. I think a lot of people have
a picture of hunters that is very
different than what you just described.
My friend Cam Haynes is serious about
preserving wildlands and he's a very
very serious bow hunter and I mean there
are really shining examples. They're bad
apples out there too. But I think people
often
>> have a certain stereotype of hunters um
you know and yet most of those people
also buy storebought meat um from
factory farms. And so you know not to
guilt anybody but there there's a lot
more to explore there. So, I appreciate
not just the description of the
beautiful social interaction and what
grew from it, but also the context.
>> There's a level of caring. I mean, I
care about the woodlands and I try to
protect it as best I can. Turns out that
the deer are kind of a threat. A lot of
ecological damage that they that they
cause in the woodlands in the Midwest
because there just a lot of them. And
so, harvesting responsibly and
respectfully, I only hunt with a
crossbow now, for instance, because I
can be much more accurate with it. And
so I can take an animal ethically and
humanely and quickly. And that's why why
I do that. So most of the hunters that
I've ever met are that way. They care
about being outdoors. They like being
with each other. Getting an animal is a
different is part of it, but is not is
not the main thing. And um yeah, and I
folks who don't hunt I think don't
appreciate that that care that people
have, outdoorsmen have for the outdoors.
>> What a great uh lesson for your son.
He's lucky to have you as a dad. I can
say it's awesome. I was reflecting on a
couple things which leads me to uh
probably what is the final question in a
minute or two but I was just sort of
chuckling inside at one moment because
you're describing that I'm thinking okay
so my dad was a theoretical physicist
right so bringing me to work was a
little different I mean we did a great
many things together but but um but he
realized and he's he's uh quite quite
smart and he realized that um showing me
a bunch of equations on on a whiteboard
wasn't wasn't going to cut it. So, I'll
never forget um he started off as an
experimentalist. And so, my first like
go to go to work with dad day was he
took me to the lab and they had all
these fruit out and a big tank of liquid
nitrogen. And we spent the day dipping
bananas into liquid nitrogen, smashing
them on walls, which for like a
six-year-old kid was like pure delight.
I went back to school telling all my
friends that I could shatter bananas and
all this stuff. wasn't quite what you
described, but I I have fishermen on my
mom's side and um my my girlfriend's
family, she's got a long long line of
hunters and and farmers, so I think
they're going to put me to the test
soon, but
>> Well, here's the parents doing great
things with their kids. Well, and that's
the the question I was going to ask, you
know, um not to uh in fact to do the
opposite of of trivialize um older
generations teaching younger generations
about what proper social interactions
are. Uh the other thing I was thinking
um during your story is that yeah, this
is how social dynamics and learning
occurs in our species. Like if um that
series that was on Netflix, the Chimp
Empire series, did you watch it? I've
not seen that.
>> Oh, wow. Fascinating because it's all
about social dynamics and chimps. Um
everything from covert gays and and
they're brutal to each other. They
ostracize. They It's very intense and
there's also a lot of beauty, but it's
not just a bunch of, you know, like
happy chimps. It's it's it's intense uh
waring between troops and so forth. But
it makes you think about our species,
right? And I'm raising a puppy right now
and and I was telling my girlfriend cuz
she's not raised a puppy before. She's
she's like better at it than I am
already, of course. And I'm and I'm
explaining to her, I said, you know, the
fastest way to train strummer, our
little bulldog mastiff, would be to get
an older dog
>> because here we are like teaching at
these human cues and trying to but we
really need to get into the mindset of
of a dog. And only a dog can really do
that. Like they're so nosled. They're
they're great at sensing literally the
the autonomic tone of people around.
They're sensitive to space. Here we are
saying sit and stay and do it like
>> Yeah. They hear it, but like we're
bringing them. It'll be like us trying
to learn how to use our noses to to
navigate. So,
>> it is a fact that within every species,
the older members of that species teach
the younger members of that species how
to socialize. And I could rattle off
lots of examples for my own life, but I
won't where I observed,
>> yes,
>> my mom and dad doing certain things in
certain situations. And so while on the
one hand until now I feel like we've
been talking to kind of like the young
listeners and stuff, the parents of kids
or the tobe parents of kids or the
siblings or the older or people who
don't even have kids like modeling
really good social interactions.
I firmly believe based on everything
we've talked about today that is every
bit as critical as the person getting
out there and and pushing themselves
past their anxiety to to um to do the
right things. We need to model better
better everyday social interactions. And
so it's clear you did that in this
example and another example. So any
ideas off the top of your head as to the
let's just call it like the uh the 40
and up crowd like it's on it's kind of
on us
>> to model really good social interactions
because that's how just like strummer
would learn better from a dog. Um
>> learning from the internet is great but
a lot of kids don't have
>> Yeah. Maybe they have a single parent or
they're away from their parents or the
ship passed or maybe maybe mom or dad
was kind of a nasty person, unhappy
person or overly outgoing and it got
them hurt like like So what do you
recommend people do to model really good
social interaction?
>> So pay attention to your habits. That's
the most important thing. It's those
little moments and you know where I
screw up. I'm I'm prone to a quick
temper and where I've made I'm still
have a I still have the college football
player inside me.
>> You like to hit things with your head.
>> Well, I want to fix something, right?
Right? And so if something's not going
my way, I'll try to fix it in some way.
And so I still have that inside me from
time to time. And I have to actively try
to create habits that that don't don't
do that. So, you know, act get out of a
situation if I'm getting frustrated
rather than try to respond and correct
it in that moment. But those little
habits, that's where it shows up. People
are watching. People are watching you in
those moments. Those little things that
you think aren't that important are what
folks are paying attention to. In our
research, when I think about how you how
you apply the stuff we're learning in
our experiments about people being
overly pessimistic about how others will
respond to them, the way you apply that
in your own life isn't that you learn
how to behave differently from learning
this is that you take that and you try
to develop a little habit that then
makes that something you do routinely
over and over again. So for instance,
one little thing that I have started
doing with this routine little habit in
mind is I've made a habit when I get
into my office and it's now expanded
kind of beyond that. But I started at
the office. I was realizing one day that
when I get to the office where my where
the door is to get into the building,
I've got maybe I don't know 150 yard
walk through the the atrium in the
middle of the building to the elevators
up to the fourth floor down my halls to
my office. And I was usually making that
walk with my head down, focused on
getting to work as quickly, you know, as
I could. And I was passing all these
people by without saying hello or hi or
whatever. And I was missing all these
opportunities just to brighten my mood a
little bit there. And so I started, you
know, doing a little happiness walk, a
little hello walk when I'd go from the
door to my office where I now when I
walk in, I keep my head up and I smile
and say hello to almost everybody I pass
if I can. Right. So, this last quarter,
Nigel's been sitting right here to my
right when I walk in at the table. And
Keith, who's got the biggest smile in
the building, one of our custodial
staff, is delightful. Mario is usually
somewhere around the second floor. I can
give him a shout out on the on the way
in. And Zia is often around the elevator
when I walk in. Eric, Virginia, Jane,
Emma, Joe, my colleagues when I walk in.
I give them a shout out hello when I
walk by their offices. And that whole
thing that just makes me a little
brighter when I get to my office. And
it's also created a habit that I now
just do without thinking, right? And
those little moments that become part of
who you are, that's what people see. And
I think as a parent, if you can think
about how can you cultivate those habits
to do these things routinely because
your kids are watching all the time,
that's what's going to matter. I had a
colleague one time, I thought this was
very wise. He realized that he was
sometimes swearing in class. And I
sometimes I'm guilty of that, too.
That's my college football player. Come
out. I got to be careful. I try not to
do that. But I had one colleague who was
adamant and this is really what got me
started thinking about this years ago
just you never slip up in class because
when you do that there people see that
and they think that's who you are and
what's appropriate in that context and
that's just not the way you want to be.
So he's made a habit never never doing
that anywhere in any part of his life.
So that he also doesn't do it in class.
>> I like the notion of classroom rules.
It's actually the the one of the only
ways I've survived social media is I I
don't get into exchanges that I wouldn't
get into in a classroom. I also don't
honor the presence of comments. People
can say what they want about me uh to a
point. Um you know uh but
>> when they start attacking each other,
you know, I always think if I we were
back in an undergraduate or graduate or
medical school classroom, I would never
let this exchange occur. And this is my
website. So
>> blocked,
>> right? you know, and people think, "Oh,
you're blocking things. You're
deleting." It's like it's not to avoid
criticism. It's like we're trying to
keep a tone of education and respect.
Yeah.
>> Right. And and it can be heated, but so
I fully uh appreciate what you just
said.
>> And I think the key to that is that it's
it's not a huge thing. It's a small
thing that you do routinely and over and
over again. And that's those small
habits are important to keep in mind.
>> I've been told by some of the people
that are regular kind of commenters and
things that they feel safe to comment
there, which tells me they feel unsafe
to comment elsewhere. a safe unsafe
thing. I'm not trying to like use like
snowflake language. I think like who
wants to go online just for people to
like be nasty, right? So there's a lot
of goodness to be had by keeping
classroom rules, I guess, as
>> correct.
>> Well, Nick, thank you so much for coming
here today and and sharing. I uh I
really appreciate you taking the time
out of your schedule and I also really
appreciate the work you do. Also, thank
you for writing the book, A Little More
Social: How Small Choices Create
Unexpected Happiness, Health, and
Connection, which comes out very soon.
I'm excited to read it. And um and I
have to say, of all the guests we've
ever had on this podcast,
>> I think you represent the kind of
extreme example of somebody whose work
has informed their life and life has
informed their work.
>> And that's somewhat straightforward to
do when it always makes for kind of the
easier, better, obvious choice. It's
like, oh, I did research discovered, you
know, this style of cardiovascular
exercise is better than that one. I'm
going to do that one. But as you pointed
out, it's brought many, many rewards
than it has challenges. But in your
case, your sensitivity to the the the
theme of your work, which is that
there's goodness and untapped beauty to
be had in the in the spaces that we
don't reflexively step into and that
maybe even we initially are a little
averse to. that that's re where the real
magic often lies and you apply it in
your own life in the realest of ways and
you benefit too and that's the whole
point. So thank you for being uh both a
scholar and a shining example of of what
you've taught us today.
>> Thank you so much Andrew. It's been
wonderful being here. I really
appreciate it.
>> We'll come back again.
>> Thank you. I would love to.
>> Thank you for joining me for today's
discussion with Dr. Nick Epley. To learn
more about his work and to find a link
to his new book entitled A Little More
Social: How Small Choices Create
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