Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.
>> The Joe Rogan Experience.
>> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY
NIGHT. All day.
Um, I was like, there's only one way
[music] to do this. I've just not drank
for a while. So, I took like eight
months off and then I had like a
margarita dinner once. So, I was like, I
missed this. And then had a glass of
wine here or there.
>> I was wondering how that was going to
hold up.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. But but you're not c I know that
you're not captured by it.
>> No, no,
>> neither am I. But our religious
observance requires it.
>> You require abstinence or drinking?
>> No, we drink.
>> What? When do you have to drink?
>> Shabbat. Every come any Friday.
>> How much do you drink? One Shabbat.
>> I probably have two and a half glasses
of wine.
>> Is there like a number that you're
supposed to hit?
>> Cup to be what? Well, that's purum.
>> What is
>> We should get into porum.
>> We're getting into it. Do we need
glasses? You want to have a drink? Uh,
usually I you you and I tend to go a
while, so we usually do that at the end.
>> Well, let's let's get some ice and some
glass. Are we rolling already?
>> I've been roll. Yeah.
>> Okay. Let's get some Tell Jeff to get us
some ice and some glass and a bottle of
>> Hope I didn't say anything wrong.
>> Um, Buffalo Trace.
>> Do you want to wait till I get back to
start because we either haven't started
or we started.
>> We started. [ __ ] it.
>> We started. Let's just roll. We'll get
Jeff to do it.
>> What's that?
>> I don't even have headphones.
>> Are we rolling still? Are we doing
headphone [ __ ]
>> We can headphones. No headphones. I
don't give a [ __ ] We We mix it up.
>> Okay.
>> You know what? Do you do you Are you
more comfortable? You got a nice head of
hair.
>> Like for me it doesn't matter. I feel
bad when people like work on their hair
real good. Like especially ladies and
they get it all nice and then they have
to [ __ ] smush it with this thing.
>> Okay. If you ever have that kind of
consideration for me, I'm going to be
very disappointed. I thought we were
closer.
>> Some people worry about that.
>> No, I worry about the the gray
>> that you have gray in your hair.
>> It's Yeah. Look at
>> Well, you're like pretty dark for your
age. How old are you now?
>> 60.
>> Yeah, you're you have [ __ ] dark ass
hair for your age. If I let my if I had
hair and it grew out like my side hairs,
[clears throat] it's mostly gray now.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. You get some gray hairs a little
bit. What's up?
>> I should have thought ahead like you
did,
>> but shaved it.
>> Yeah. Shaved it when everyone knew it
wasn't gray and then it's just normal
cuz like it's very clear if I shave it
now. I think you can avoid gray hair
with proper supplementation. At least
that is the the thought today that with
uh enough zinc and copper
>> and that that somehow or another that's
involved in the diet. I don't know. I'm
talking out of my ass here. I don't know
that much about um what causes your hair
to go gray.
>> This is Austin T.
>> Other than this is Buffalo Trace, older
than America.
>> Really?
>> Yeah. This is a a distillery from 1773
I believe they started.
>> Wow.
>> Them apples, huh?
>> It's like that Chinese sounding beer
yunling or something. Cheers, my friend.
>> Buffalo Trace is like by Is
their beard really old? Beer really old.
>> Um, they have a old beer.
>> Yodling.
>> Is it old as [ __ ]
>> Jamie knows everything. I feel a lot.
You know, people
>> 1829.
>> You see? Oh,
people say, "I have this AI. I'm using
Claude. I'm using uh Chat GPT."
>> I use Jamie.
>> Jamie, right? For sure.
>> Oh, he's AI. He's way way better than AI
because he's kind of psychic. You're a
little psychic, right?
>> A little bit.
>> Well, I mean, I've listened to you talk
a lot. [laughter]
>> My My theory is is that he also looks
ahead. He knows sort of where you're
likely to head, so he's got it ready.
>> 100%. He knows how my goofy [ __ ]
brain works. Yeah, for sure.
>> Good to see you, my brother.
>> Good to see you. Hello Joe.
>> How was your uh your what what what was
it exactly? How would you describe it? A
speech uh pres a talk on dark energy uh
to the uh KCH group at the UTX Texas
Austin physics department.
>> This is one I wanted to ask you about.
Mitchaku has been saying that he
believes that dark energy is possibly
something leaking in from another
dimension. Is that Look at that face.
Look at that. [laughter]
He gave go on.
>> He gave a little side eye. Well, let's
see what he says. Jamie, see if you can
find that, please.
>> I think he said it was gravity from
different colonies and put them together
as a kid just to see what happens.
>> Did I? No, I never did that.
>> I [clears throat] did that.
>> Oh, why? Just watch him fight. Oh, yeah.
>> Oh, you [ __ ] psycho.
>> Yeah, a little bit.
>> No, I never did any of that.
>> You were saying about me, too?
>> Yeah, that he uh I I just I didn't even
read it. I just saw it and went, "Oh,
Jesus, I got to talk to Eric about this.
>> [laughter]
>> I mean, she she just dark matter isn't
matter at all. It's gravity leaking in
from a parallel dimension.
And this guy won't do mushrooms. Isn't
that wild? [snorts]
>> Uh,
what do you think about that?
>> You remember when I was here and I said,
"Get Moaku in here with me."
>> Yeah. What What is it What it is about
Well, clearly he's a brilliant guy.
>> He He is and was a brilliant guy. he's
decided to do something else. And to be
entirely honest, I don't love going
after other named people. In general, my
shtick is that I go hard after
institutions. I'm a huge institutional
supporter and their worst nightmare in
the current world. Individuals I don't
like beefing with. I I watch all of the
energy, the beauty of life lost to
beefing with people. Mitchak is doing a
tremendous amount of damage to
theoretical physics. How so?
Um,
theoretical physics is in my estimation
the most beautiful, most powerful, most
economically potent thing you can do
with your life. And we are the best. The
United States is in my opinion the
greatest nation in the history of the
earth for theoretical physics because we
are cowboys. We are irreverent.
We are the we are the people who
invented the atomic and hydrogen bombs,
the semiconductor.
Uh
this is what we do and we've lost the
ability to do it at an at a level that I
cannot believe happened during my watch
my lifetime. So from 1984 to the
present, those 42 years have been the
greatest intellectual
implosion I think that I know of where
people just got dumber. And what do you
think is the cause of that? I'm going to
describe this uh humidifier.
>> Quantum gravity.
>> Quantum gravity did.
>> Yep. Mhm. In 1984, there was a result
>> and it's called the Green Schwarz
anomaly cancellation.
And the guy that I've talked to you
about before in UFO context, the guy who
is Lewis Whitten's son, Lewis Whitten,
happy happy birthday. Turned 105.
Um was the anti-gravity guy from the
50s. his son Edward Whitten decided that
the 1984 Green Schwarz anomaly
cancellation meant that we should all
all the smartest people should pile into
one narrow subsp specialty and that that
was the future and because he was so
much smarter than all of us, people
listened and I didn't. And Mioaku is
part of his wave. Almost all of the
people that you've traditionally had on
in physics
have some connection to this. So you've
had on I don't know probably Sean Carol,
uh Neil deGrasse Tyson, Brian Green.
Nobody wanted to say what was happening
which is that we were we were being
unraveled and destroyed. our ability to
be the world's greatest theoretical
physicist was being
eroded year by year for 42 years.
>> And specifically, it was the pursuit of
string theory.
>> It's not string theory itself that's the
problem. String theory is harmless. It's
just a bunch of equations, a bunch of
ideas, and it's beautiful mathematics in
many places. So, um, that's not an
issue. The issue is the exclusion of
everything else.
And this goes under the name Togeit or
the only game in town to Og T.
>> And it's this idea that only we the
enlightened
can do theoretical physics and the rest
of you are just doing finger exercises
and you're too stupid to know it.
>> So specifically like what is
what what's isolationist about string
theory? What is it about this one
particular theory that all this thought
has been pushed into that?
>> The claim is
that there's this thing called UV
complete physics and there's no way that
we can have a discussion about that
directly. If I could ask Jamie, could I
impose upon you to call up on YouTube
Wheel of Fortune and then use I've got a
good feeling about this. I can explain
it to you.
>> Wheel of Fortune. I've got a good
feeling about this.
>> I've got a good feeling about this.
>> Okay. Is that an episode of Wheel of
Fortune?
>> It'll be over briefly. It's very very
quick. It's about a minute and a half or
something. And the key point is it's a
tight analogy for the problem faced in
physics that anyone can understand. So I
don't people think I try to make things
complicated. I really try to make them
understandable. But what I do is I talk
about things I don't know that you've
ever had anyone talk about UV
completeness on the Joe Rogan.
>> I don't believe so.
>> Yeah. Yeah,
>> I said. Okay, put your headphones on.
>> Yeah.
>> Well, you're not going to be able to
hear it unless you have headphones on.
>> I know it like the back of my hand.
>> Wheel of Fortune.
>> Uh, we need a phrase this time as
category for this puzzle. And it is a
prize puzzle.
[applause]
Go ahead, Rick. Gladly.
>> [applause]
>> And what do we get here? 500 R.
>> Well, you'd think there'd be an R in
there somewhere, wouldn't you?
Obviously, you called it, Caitlyn.
[applause]
[applause]
>> L.
>> Uh, one L.
[applause]
Did
>> you really?
>> What's that?
>> Can I solve?
Okay.
>> It is a prize puzzle.
>> Yeah.
>> I've got a good feeling about this.
>> That's right. [screaming]
>> THAT'S INSANE.
[applause and cheering]
>> That lady's a wizard. That lady is what
I want to do with my life. That that is
what great physics looks like. It's
totally irresponsible. [snorts]
And you know, Pat Sjack is like trying
to ask her like, "How'd you do that?"
And she says, "Well, I had a good
feeling about this." You know, and the
funny part about it is you can figure it
out. The if you if you go back, can
Jamie, can you show the board right
there? Yeah.
>> So, clearly that apostrophe is a huge
clue, right? So, the idea is that if you
read that property, is it isle? Is it
I've right and then there's no r? Um, so
think about all of those blank squares
as orders of magnitude that you are away
from the energies that would allow you
to do experiments that would explain
physics. And think about the apostrophe,
the L, and that pattern as well as the
fact that there's no R as the standard
model of physics.
So right now what you have is a debate
about whether or not we should buy more
and more letters with higher and higher
energy
or like should we build bigger
accelerators and spend more treasure
trying to collide particles or should we
just Caitlyn our way out of this? So
Caitlyn Burke is my model of what I
think we're supposed to be doing. And
>> so an exceptional mind with an ability
to see or propose things that other
people aren't seeing. how I guarantee
you that if we studied this, if we spent
a month with the world's smartest people
on this puzzle, we'd learn that there
are certain things that were present
that, you know, that the frequency of
certain the fact that there's a single
letter there that almost certainly is I
or A. She took a tiny number of clues,
but here's the really important thing.
Jamie, can we show the the the filledin
puzzle?
So you'll notice that the word this
could be changed to that because the
only letter that's been excluded is an
R.
>> So that is what the issue of unique UV
completion is. In other words, you a
unique UV completion would say
[clears throat] there's only one phrase
that fits there. she guessed. She
couldn't have known it is I've got a
good feeling about that or I've got a
nice feeling about this or that.
>> So, it's actually not
um or I'll get a good feeling about
this. But all of those were much less
probable because
they're just not as natural. So, this is
a combination of science, guesswork,
and raw courage. Like the the the most
marvelous thing about that exchange is
she says, "Can I solve?" And there's
like he's not even sure he's hearing her
properly. And then finally he says,
"Okay, that's that's gatekeeping. Can I
put this article on the archive? Can I
give a seminar in your department?
I want to solve the puzzle." And a lot
of what we're arguing about is that the
string theorists are the only ones who
have the right to try to solve the
puzzle
at the moment. So imagine that somehow
there's a rule that only Rick, poor
Rick, who guesses that there's an R.
Imagine that he's the only one allowed
to solve the puzzle. And when she asks,
"May I solve the puzzle?"
No, no, no. You can't. That's
pseudocience. You're a charlatan. That's
you know that is uh crank physics. Mhm.
>> So that's what the problem that we're
facing is is that we've got one group
that got control of the gatekeeping,
who is very good at mathematics,
extremely bad at physics,
and they've redefined what physics is
and what good science is, where they're
the only ones who are guessing the
puzzle. They can't guess the puzzle and
everyone else is like, here's a crazy
story from yesterday.
I wasn't allowed to say that I gave a
talk in the physics department even
though any normal person would say that
that happened. And I wasn't allowed to
do that when I visited a uh physics
institution in Canada. I wasn't allowed
to say that I was visiting for a week.
Nor was I allowed to say that I gave a
seminar that lasted nine hours.
>> But you just did.
>> Yeah.
>> Are you a lawb breaker?
>> I'm breaking the rules now because I've
now I've had it. I agreed I agreed to
not do this and I'm and with these
missing scientists
I've changed my mind. [snorts]
I'm not going to deal with these people
anymore and whatever is going on with
science and the suppression of different
ideas
um is terrifying.
Right now we have a situation I you know
I gave a talk at the University of
Chicago. There's no record of it.
Who's asking you to do these talks and
who's asking you to not give a record?
You don't have to name names.
>> Yeah. Particular people in general. The
funny part is that the people who ask me
to give talks in the physics departments
are the most courageous person in each
department.
So the problem is that the person that I
you you end up feeling resentful towards
how dare you tell me that I can't give
this talk in this department officially
is the person who's arranging for your
stay
and is arranging for the the room and
they are under the most pressure from
the institutions.
>> So the institution is forcing them to
say
you you're allowed to do give the talk
but you're not allowed to talk about it
on social media. You're not allowed to
>> advertise that you're doing it. You're
not allowed to say that you're doing it.
>> So in this case, in the case of of UT
Texas physics department, I was allowed
to say I'm speaking in the carch group
seminar. It's like a condom to make sure
that the physics department doesn't get
pregnant.
>> Well, isn't that really bizarre? Because
University of Austin, Texas, was
supposed to be a university that fixed
all the [ __ ] that was wrong with
other universities.
>> Much much more insane than that. This
was the home of Steven Weinberg who
moved from Harvard to Texas because the
money the oil money was used to buy
brains. So har basically Texas raided
Harvard for people like John Tate in the
math department Steven Weinberg who was
the probably the greatest living uh
theorist and that was the continuation
of the Bryce Dit group from North
Carolina Chapel Hill that was set up to
do anti-gravity by Agnu Bainson. So,
you're right next to an amazing physics
department with a crazy history
um that in fact touched anti-gravity.
This is one of the one of the tiny
number of places that has a a real
legacy in that department. And I I was
speaking there on gravity
on dark energy.
And
you uh look, I've been lying my whole
life about my relationship with the
physics world because of this pressure.
They can't listen to me if I say I'm a
physicist. So I say I'm an entertainer.
[laughter]
Yeah. But that people say, "Well, why
would you do that? Why would you say
that you're an entertainer when you
obviously are conversant in all this
stuff?" And the answer is, I don't want
to die. I don't want to lose my ability
to enter a physics department. So I I
take on this completely wrong persona
and you know I have the emails. You're
not giving a talk. You're having
conversations in room 5308.
>> It literally says you're not giving a
talk.
>> I could read what it is that they write
to me. So
>> why but why what is the benefit of this
formal declaration or this formal
designation of the way you're talking?
So when I was at a physics institute in
Canada, I I was told, "We're worried
that you're going to use it to
legitimize yourself."
It's like, "I'm going to do that. Of
course, I'm going. I have a PhD from
Harvard, you stupid I I mean like you
guys imagine I'm I'm I'm a podcast
guest."
This episode is brought to you by
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>> Right? just a regular dude with some
wacky ideas,
>> right? And so the idea is I have to play
that character
>> as opposed to I have
>> legitimizing yourself is a very bizarre
phrase.
>> Tell me about that.
>> That's because it's assuming that you're
not legitimate.
>> Do you know what I'm saying?
>> I don't think you're understanding this.
>> But no, I am understanding it. But but
from their perspective, saying that
you're going to use it to legitimize
yourself in your ideas is a really crazy
way to phrase it because like you're
they're acting from the assumption that
you're not legitimate.
>> So that's they're you remember when like
I think Reagan thought I forget who it
was. Reagan thought there were
recallable missiles.
>> Well, you could turn them around,
>> right?
>> Sorry, we changed my mind.
>> So
>> like a base jumper was also a suicide
jumper. [laughter]
on second halfway through [laughter]
>> halfway in he's like a [ __ ] this no I I
like a lot of these people who survive
jumping off the gold gate bridge they
learn like I I love life um
>> yes yes most of them
>> they're reborn
>> um so what I would say is
>> the problem is that I am I don't I I
don't this is not a boast as you know I
don't usually put my credential first
I'm probably the most blue chip defector
from the institutions
mut mutineer let's put it call it that
um I have a I have essentially perfect
credentials
and that's the problem so it's not a
question of you're going to legitimize I
already legitimized myself by Harvard
PhD MIT postoc NSF post-docal fellow ONR
top in the country Sloan foundation
grantee I've been in math physics
economics departments I'm so bulletproof
>> so that's the problem
>> that's the That's the problem. It's not
that you're a cook. That
>> That's what I was What I was trying to
say. You didn't understand.
>> No, I do understand. I just don't
understand why they want to do that to
you. That's what's bizarre
>> narrative.
>> Okay.
>> I am I am the greatest danger to the
narrative.
>> I'm I'm the most followed mathematician
in the United States. Maybe the world
Hana Fry may be above it. That danger to
the narrative is the problem. Well,
specifically for people that don't know
what we're talking about, what is to
make this a standalone show, the people
that not aware of your work, what is it
about you and your ideas
that they are so hesitant to platform
or legitimize or why you're such a
danger.
>> Okay, so in 2001,
I said mortgage back securities were a
great danger to the world. I have one of
the first published papers on the danger
of illquid of the pricing of illquid
securities.
Uh, I went on Chris Williamson's show
and he asked me who's going to win,
Biden or Trump. I said, 'You don't even
know whether Biden's going to make it to
November. I said that the people
representatives of the Democratic party
reached out to me and said, "Stop
talking about Biden's dementia. You need
your affirmation that you're seeing
something real. We've put in three
people uh as a committee to replace the
president." And I I said like, I'm
supposed to feel good about that. Um, so
I
>> Well, they told you they put in three
people.
>> They put in a committee of three people
and if you knew who those people were,
you'd be pleased as punched. So shut up.
>> That's what they said to you.
>> Yeah, correct.
>> You would be really happy. So shut up.
>> Yeah.
>> They didn't even tell you who the people
were.
>> I think that they did and I've
conveniently forgot them. One of them
might have been the chief of staff.
[laughter]
[sighs and gasps]
>> Wow.
>> So it's like,
>> but I but I say this, right? And I'm not
trying to
I mean I keep lots of secrets that
people ask me to keep that I should keep
things having to do with national
security for example. But these people
are incompetent
and they're a danger to us. And right
now that the string theory narrative is
a complete danger. It's not string
theory that's the problem. It's the it's
the only game in town. And so, you know,
there was a
look, people are willing to spend their
entire credibility
just to make me go away.
>> Could you briefly just describe like
what what is the pro? So, there's not a
problem with string string theory or is
string theory not complete or is string
theory readed uh has it reaped actual
results? mathematically it's reaped
results and string theorists have
occasionally um done really great work
in in a subject called quantum field
theory but quantum field theory isn't
about the quantum field theory of the
world quantum field theory is like
calculus it's some thing that's very
useful and it it grew up in physics but
we've now found out that quantum field
theory has to do with pure problems in
mathematics that have nothing to do with
physics and what they haven't done is
they haven't dealt with the physical
world. So if you take physics, why why
do we care about physics so much more
than really almost any other aspect of
the sciences other than biology.
I had to give a talk at the New York
Deep Tech Week. Shout out to those guys.
And I I put it on the slide as uh three
things. There's boom, vroom, and zoom.
Easy to remember. Boom is weapons.
Physics will create weapons. uh you'll
dwarf everything else with the possible
exception of biologicals.
Uh zoom vroom is energy and the story of
energy is basically the story of
prosperity and control. Uh if you look
at wealth and the amount of fossil fuels
burned, it's more or less like a
onetoone correlation as to which nations
are rich and poor per capita. And zoom
is everything else. It's propulsion.
It's computation,
it's communication
and those things if you if you take them
together um more or less define the
economy and the world order. Physics is
the center of what makes us
modern humans and
it became too dangerous in the 1950s.
even the 40s, you know, atomic weapons
are extremely bad, but they're not
hydrogen bombs. Um, somehow in November
of 52, everything changed and
we became we became too dangerous. The
the community of physicists is the most
powerful group of people made into
completely
uh ineffectual humans.
>> And do you think this is by design?
>> Partially.
>> And what was the purpose of it? But by
saying that you became that physicists
became too dangerous, the ideas became
too dangerous is the idea that the
weapons would become so immense and
powerful that they had to do something
to stop and curb that.
>> Well, we didn't know how to control it,
right? So, in other words, for example,
in the in 1940,
we set up something called the reference
committee, which I'm sure your listeners
have never heard of. And the reference
committee lived inside of the National
Resource Council. Now, why was it
important? because chain reaction
physics was so hot once the neutron was
found. Right? So, think about neutrons
as bullets. Um, they can go right into
the middle of an atom because they're
they're not positively charged. So,
they're not going to be repelled by the
nucleus and they can bust apart atoms
that are b barely being held together.
And that's why you you get bullets
beginning bullets be getting bullets and
that's what a chain reaction is. The
people who were doing that in the 40 in
the 30s suddenly found that when they
mailed off a paper to a journal if they
weren't part of the secret group in Los
Alamos
their paper got held up and sent back
for revisions
and there was no money in it. We we
secretly set up this thing to shunt real
research into the National Resource
Council. I think this was or organized
by a guy named Bright Briti T. And
that was the beginning of this whole
peerreview control mechanism.
>> And this control, do you think is this
ego-based that the people who are the
gatekeepers want to remain in the
position of
>> we all want to survive, Joe. I mean,
this is a real problem. So you and I can
hate on the institutions all we want
from the safety of the JRE,
but what are you going to do when it
becomes really really easy for people to
commit
like [clears throat] mass murder? If you
think about all the really bad mass like
the the Vegas shooting that never really
got sorted out, it's very hard to kill
large numbers of people using things
like bullets.
If you want to really kill a large
number of people, you're going to go to
biologicals and you're going to go to
nuclear.
And what happens when that becomes easy?
Like maybe it's a lot easier to build
these weapons than the way we currently
do it. Right now we're uh bottlenecked
on things like centrifuges.
And by the way, who knows what the next
innovation in physics is going to bring.
So I always say this thing about if
you're not tracking everybody at my
level, what are you doing as an
intelligence service? Is this part of
your concern about the missing
scientists?
>> Yeah, of course.
>> Yeah. So, the missing scientist
narrative, um, for people that aren't
aware of it, I think they're up to 15
now. And a lot of people say that some
of these connections are baseless and
that some of them it's just
>> we're not really up to 15.
>> No. Okay. So, what do you think we're
actually up to?
>> I don't know. Probably
five or six.
>> But I saw someone online did a breakdown
of it and essentially they were saying
that the odds of this being a
coincidence are off the charts. that the
people that are all involved in very
specific types of technological
research,
different things that are top secret
that all of these people either wind up
missing. There's a lot of murder in math
and physics. First of all, people don't
really appreciate that. Um, you know,
the uni bomber was a famous PhD
mathematician. Uh,
>> he's a big story though. There's there's
a lot.
>> Yeah, sure. There was a guy named Caner
who uh broke into David Writtenhouse
Laboratories in the University of
Pennsylvania where I was an
undergraduate and shot up a seminar. Um
there was uh you know this situation in
Iowa where a relative of mine got a seat
in the physics department um because
somebody was killed by one of the
graduate students. I think it became a
movie like Dark Matter. So there there's
an incredible amount of murder. Uh the
ballpeen hammer uh killing of was it
Carl Doo by um uh Strleski at Stanford.
So first of all there's just a lot of
death because mathematicians and
physicists are somewhat close to
unhinged and it's it's a really nasty
there's a lot of nasty culture and
sometimes it becomes violent.
>> Why do you think they're close to
unhinged?
You spend that much time in your head? I
I'm amazed that I'm as well grounded as
I am. [laughter] No, seriously, you're
just way out in the stratosphere.
I I I completely forget who I am, where
I am, that I'm even a human being. That
when you're using your body as an
instrument as you as you do um in combat
sports and training, you become a
different thing. You know, you know that
archery thing where you have to
>> twist your arm. A lot of people don't
know that they can do that initially.
Like just a small thing like that or
>> what are you talking about? Archery
thing that you twist your arm.
>> If you have an old style bow,
>> you you often get burned by the
>> Oh, that you have to twist your arm like
that. Yeah. So that you're not like this
and get hit.
>> But but you you you don't see but then
you twisted your your wrist. You keep
your wrist straight.
>> Just
>> I don't do that kind of archery. That's
why I'm confused.
>> Well, okay. Sorry. You do real
>> this this kind? Yeah. You keep your hand
like that.
>> Okay.
um
>> that's a torque issue,
>> but like if you're if you're if you're a
sniper, you know, there are all sorts of
things about breathing in in your how
you adjust your eyes and
>> you use your body as an instrument as a
mathematician or a physicist. One of the
reasons that I I wish I were in better
shape is that in order for me to keep my
mind in a particular way, I have to not
think constantly about suppressing food,
you know. So what you're doing a you're
doing a very unnatural thing.
>> Mhm.
>> And that unnatural thing uh not
everybody can handle it.
>> Right.
>> I see what you're saying.
>> And we snap. And also our minds are more
perfect. The messiness of the world and
the perfection of our minds is at odds
with each other.
>> And I love disappearing into math and
physics because it's perfect.
>> But how does that lead to violence?
um you're upset because people are
lying. You know, you're like the the uni
bomber had a had really interesting
points.
He wasn't a dumb guy. He was really
correctly, you know, he has a an amazing
story called Ship of Fools. I highly
recommend anybody read it. Just the way
Charles Manson's Look at your game girl
is a great song.
[snorts]
>> It's a great song.
>> Okay.
>> Yeah. um
we're not comfortable in part with uh
coming back to the the half measures and
the the special pleading that sort of
characterizes normal life. So to get
back to the missing scientist narrative,
um I don't think there are 15 missing
scientists in this data set. That's
[ __ ] But
>> it seems like they're adding as many as
they can.
>> Yeah, they're
>> they're trying to make connections that
don't
>> Don't do that. It's it's like it's like
the junkification of the UFO narrative.
All of these narratives have a junk to
them so that and and I believe a lot of
the junk is affixed to the narrative so
that those who want to follow the
institutional instruction to ignore the
fact that this is happening can point to
the crappiness,
right? And so that's the out. And the
really difficult thing that you do and
you do really well is you try to piece
together, okay, what's [ __ ] what's
real. There's a lot of real in the UFO
story and there's a lot of nonsense.
>> There's a lot of real in the COVID story
and a lot of nonsense. The same thing is
true for physics. But physics is more
dangerous
>> and the fact that we're not tracking
like I always wonder why they allow me
to come on the JRE
and say stuff.
I know a lot of stuff that I don't know
what it unlocks
and
>> Well, it's easy to dismiss anybody who
comes on here.
>> Sure. China is smarter and by the way
the LLMs I mean look there are a lot of
threads here
to get back to the physics um and I'm
giving a talk tomorrow on at the at the
Texas Austin on supporting science math
and physics and renewing our commitment
to it. I don't want to give the
impression that it isn't dangerous or
that the gatekeeping is stupid. It's
really important to do great gatekeeping
around mathematics and physics. It's
cryptography, it's weaponry, it's
propulsion,
it's, you know, a sudden change in the
world economy.
Um, if you figured out how to do fusion,
it would have immediate geopolitical
results.
>> So, these specific scientists that are
missing,
whatever the number is, five, six that
you think are legitimate, what what
specifically are they working on that's
so dangerous? Well, the fusion guy
obviously is uh at MIT is anybody who
might I I don't know. Fusion isn't my
thing. Plasma isn't my thing. Um but
that is unquestionably uh dangerous if
you imagine how much depends on oil. And
is there is it a good assumption that if
you have one incredibly brilliant person
that's at the head of this thing and
they make a breakthrough, if you kill
that guy, the whole thing is in disarray
because the people that are under him,
whatever people he has working with him
aren't as fully immersed in it as he is
that you can kind of like handicap a
problem.
>> It's like let's say if there's
>> top five people,
>> it's an energy thing. Let's say if it's
an energy thing. Let's say if someone
has some new technology that's going to
completely disrupt the fossil fuels
industry, right? And they go, "Listen,
we can kill this [ __ ] guy and uh it's
still coming down the pipe, but we'll
delay it by 10 years and make $15
trillion."
>> So,
this is the question about the far right
tail, like the extreme right tail of
human intelligence and ability. And if
you think about certain areas where you
have a dominant figure, uh Rodney Mullen
in skateboarding, for example, what
percentage of all tricks derive from
Rodney Mullen? You couldn't have stopped
skateboarding, but you could certainly
have held it back by getting to Rodney
Mullen, right?
uh when it comes to, you know, guitar,
the the amount of impact that uh Jimmyi
Hendris and Eddie Van Halen had is just
wildly disproportionate.
You know, when when I was doing my
podcast, I was really excited to do
Rodney Mullen and Eddie Van Halen
together. I wanted to get them, you
know, totally different sports, but um
those two guys are sort of the same.
They just created so much vocabulary,
you can't even imagine it. And
>> Eddie Van Halen doesn't get the credit
he deserves either.
>> Oh, tell me. Talk to me.
>> Well, it's just Van Halen
became Van Hagar and it became a
different kind of music and I think a
lot of the original hardcore fans left,
but a lot I think it got more popular
with
>> sure Sammy Hagar, but it was a different
kind of music.
>> And not that it's bad, but it's
different. And then I think a lot of
people just went nah. But like if you go
like to,
you know, some of the like big Van Halen
with David I think Van Halen with David
Lee Roth in his prime was a literally a
perfect band. It was phenomenal. That
was they were the [ __ ] when I was in
high school. I mean it was everybody had
Van Halen on their notebooks. They made
the VH.
>> I remember it.
>> They were awesome. And they were so
[snorts] good. and Van Hal and Eddie
specifically could shred so hard and
some of those classic riffs. I just
don't think in the mainstream world he
got the credit that he deserves.
>> I see it differently.
>> Well, people mention Clapton, who of
course is a great wizard. Always it's
number one is Hrix. Most people have
Hendrickx as number one because he was
so revolutionary.
>> Well, nobody's going to say Alan
Holdsworth.
>> Yeah. I don't know who he is.
>> Exactly.
>> Yeah. I mean, my my my point is is that
um
David Lee Roth kept Eddie Van Halen from
becoming Alan Holdlessworth.
And
that's
>> who is Alen Holdsworth?
>> Oh, it's interesting. Alan Holdsworth,
like if you talk to your hot [ __ ]
guitarist friends, they will very often
like everybody will just pause and say,
"Well, yeah, that's Alen Holdsworth."
>> Really?
>> Yeah.
And it's sort of like listening to a
modem for normal human beings,
right? Um that's why it's it's just not
popular. And so Eddie Van Halen was
>> Who did he play with?
>> I don't know. Alan Holtzsworth
>> just by himself.
>> Yeah. Can we just actually weirdly put
Alan Holdlessworth just like choose
something with a
>> Yeah. Yeah. We'll listen to some of his
music. So we might have we'll edit it
out of the episode because otherwise
we'll get dinged on.
>> Okay. Well, I don't want you to Okay.
But
>> we'll play it. We'll play it and then
we'll just come right back to it.
>> All right. Let's do that.
>> Give me something. Jamie,
>> was it is there any specific song that
you'd like?
>> No, at all. It's all mind-l
[snorts] popular we might have known so
I could tap into that, but I don't see
nothing.
>> Like, is there a song that you like that
you could recommend?
>> I just listen to a certain amount of it
and then I don't listen to it again. I'm
not at that level where I need Alan
Holdsworth.
>> Okay.
>> What does that mean?
>> No, what does that mean? [laughter]
Thank you, Jamie. I'd rather see some
guy flying through the air with like
[laughter] his pants on fire than
listen.
>> Okay, here we go.
>> Live in Tokyo.
>> 1984. Live in Tokyo.
>> Tokyo Dream.
>> See if you can use the histogram to
figure out like where the nerds are
going.
>> Histogram.
>> Yeah, it shows you like where people
spend their time on a video.
I would go right into the middle of it
or something.
>> I'm already checking what you're doing.
>> Sell out or
>> nothing's going on right now.
>> Put it in the middle, Jamie.
What is all
>> you've heard this before though?
>> Yeah.
>> What is that? A bass? What is the other
guitar I'm hearing? Cuz that is not
matching up with what that bass player
seems to be playing. Do you hear that
extra guitar?
That's slower [music] and off time.
>> I don't know.
That's a bass. I think
>> it doesn't sound like he's playing.
>> My my guitarist friends will just
salivate and I'll look at them.
[laughter]
>> No offense, but it's
>> [laughter]
>> Can't be very
>> It sounds like jazz, right? So it's like
jazz guitar. Like there's no there's no
singing.
>> Apologize, sir.
>> Well, look, [laughter]
if I put on if I
>> No more Jerry. I've had it. [sighs]
>> Oh, [snorts] Jamie.
>> Jamie, you're going to have so much nerd
hate.
>> I mean, I've people will agree with me,
too. I believe.
>> Oh, 100%. more more
that was my point. I think David Lee
Roth had some uh had some comment about
if it weren't for me the brothers would
be uh playing biker bars in the Far
Valley or something, you know. And so
David Lee Roth came up with what we
would call the syntactic sugar, the
thing that made Van Halen
fun and listenable and dable like Dance
the Night Away.
>> Yeah.
>> Just I didn't like Van Halen. I love
that song. I never liked Van Halen. Oh,
how dare you.
>> Well, but I loved Eddie Van Halen. And
>> you didn't like Van Halen.
>> I didn't You want to That I'm not even
embarrassed about that. The one I'm
embarrassed about. I completely
dismissed AC/DC in real time because I'm
an idiot.
>> Oh,
>> I've never been more wrong about
something in my life.
>> How did you dismiss AC/DC?
>> Good question. They had a dumb thing
going on with the school pants and the
dirty deeds done dirt cheap and
>> [ __ ] song.
>> What a great song. Well, you know, like
musically Hot for Teacher is an amazing
composition.
>> Yeah.
>> Unbelievable. Right. But but it's the
key thing that they figured out is
making things marketable.
>> Right.
>> Right.
>> And that's David Lee Roth.
>> And I think it's David Lee Roth
[clears throat]
charismatic and did jumping splits.
Yeah. Yeah, he was amazing.
>> Amazing. Amazing. And he had a a secret
weakness for oldtimey music.
>> Right.
>> Right. Like Just a Jigalow, Ice Cream
Man, all that kind of stuff. So he's
like a almost a throwback to 1930s for,
you know, even earlier vaudeville.
>> He's an odd guy. Have you ever met him?
>> I've wanted I've wanted to so badly. I'm
so jealous.
>> But I I don't think you ever really get
to him. It's always the show. like in
podcasts it's a little like I really
enjoy talking to him but it's a little
odd.
>> I've seen I didn't love the way he was
my my feel like I would I would go the
Jewish angle. I I I would connect to him
based on shared cultural heritage but
what I think about Eddie
is that Eddie wasn't just a guitarist.
He he was an electronics guy. He was a
keyboard player. He was handsome as the
day is long,
bursting with charisma.
And like you and I mostly don't know
whether guys are good-looking. I know
Eddie Van Halen was good-looking. Tell
me more.
>> He he was the whole thing.
>> Yeah, for sure.
>> Right. Rockstar.
>> Yeah. And so my feeling is is that those
two guys really, you know, it's one of
those things where you have two guys in
a band that, you know, both of them are
are one one in a billion kind of people
and they happen to meet.
I I
I'm happy to be wrong about Van Halen,
but I didn't do it in real time. I came
to it later, but I remember the first
time I heard Van Halen one, I had the
same mystical thing. What is that?
Nothing sounds like this. And I've
almost never had that in music. You
know, the first time I heard Smells Like
Team Spirit. What is that?
>> Those, you know, there are these moments
where something discontinuous happened.
>> But you heard like Ain't Talk About Love
and that Never Got You.
>> No. Panama Doesn't Get Me.
>> Ain't Talking About Love is a [ __ ]
jam. [sighs and gasps]
>> When was the last time you listened to
it?
>> This year. and nothing.
>> It's not that. Well, okay. So, part part
of the thing is is that do you do you
play an instrument? When you play an
instrument,
>> that's the problem.
>> Yeah. I don't play anything.
>> You know, the thing about Eddie Van
Halen is is that he accepted the
geometry of the neck of the guitar. And
very often you see musicians say, "I
don't care what key it's in. I I can
figure out how to do anything." Eddie
Van Halen didn't do that. He said,
"Look, there's certain things that this
thing makes possible, and I'm going to
I'm going to accept the limitations of
the instrument [snorts] and figure out
how to push it in all sorts of ways."
Another quote of his that I just love is
this thing about um
if it doesn't cry, weep, moan, I don't
care.
He wanted all of those noises
>> and figuring out how to get those
noises, figuring out how to make the
guitar into more. This is a thing that
obsesses people like Jeff Beck or Roy
Buchanan or Eddie Van Halen where
they're just
they're in some other space where it's
no longer an instrument the way you and
I see it.
You know, I I've never wanted a whammy
bar on my instrument until I saw Jeff
Beck
do
crazy stuff that just isn't possible.
>> I never tell you I drove him around
once.
>> Yeah. Yeah. We had that car on air.
>> Yeah.
>> And that
um
you know, you've never had Derek Trucks
on the program, have you?
>> Tedeshi Trucks.
>> Uh yeah. No,
>> that guy would not a human.
>> Oh, he's amazing.
>> Amazing. And um
>> has a bunch of different people sing
songs.
>> So yeah, I look I care tremendously
about the guitar. And you know, the
funny thing that I realized is that I
stupidly mentioned guitars on JRE and I
got sent amazing guitars and I had I had
Jamie sent a a quad cortex. Um, I should
have mentioned like Lamborghinis or like
jewels or something.
>> It doesn't work. I've mentioned all
those things.
>> Okay. Um, but I became friends with like
the greatest guitarists of our time and
they're all suffering because nobody
cares. And and I I heard and I haven't
seen it that you had Marcus King.
>> Yeah.
>> On and talked about the death of Rock.
>> Well, I talked about the death of Rock
before and Marcus reached out and that's
why I had him on. He's like, "Man,
Rock's not dead. We're doing it every
[ __ ] night." I was like, "All right,
come on, man. Let's talk."
>> And did you get to the blues, which he
excels at?
>> Well, we mostly just were talking about
just music in general and his life and
he's very
>> Why did he give you a nice guitar?
>> Yeah, it's beautiful, right? He's a cool
[ __ ]
>> He's a cool guy
>> and he's super talented, too.
>> Never met him.
>> Well, it's like these these
This is what my my conversation was
about. Like this is what's what prompted
it rather is that when I was a kid, rock
and roll music was the big popular music
>> 100%.
>> It was all Rolling Stones, AC/DC. These
bands were huge. Zeppelin, they were
[ __ ] huge. They were the biggest
bands.
>> That's not the case anymore.
>> That's right.
>> And that's weird. And I what I said is I
don't understand how a a a music genre
that's so popular can stop being popular
when it's still so good. Like when we
have Protect Our Parks and you know
we'll play Freeird, we still go nuts for
that guitar solo. What happened to
Freeird?
I'm pretty sure if you looked at
Google's data, Freeberg was in it went
away for a long time
>> and then it got resurrected as a meme.
Right? because you you can feel all
right this insanely long intro.
>> Mhm.
>> Just so luxurious. You can't believe
anybody would put up with it anymore.
>> And then
>> two different songs,
>> right? Lord knows I can't
sudden it becomes alive,
>> right? Fly high freeird. Yeah. And then
suddenly you're on fire.
>> Yeah. You know, it's just like you want
to fly an American flag, you want to
shoot lasers, whatever it is.
>> That feeling, I think, went away. And I
think that I think that freeird, if I'd
love to see the data, it came back. And
in part, it was probably Trump and Elon
and this re we're in a masculinity
crisis world over. And the masculinity
crisis
originally killed Freeird and it brought
it back. I think free bread was brought
back by protect our parks.
Okay.
>> You think so?
>> I never I mean Google trend says it's
never really gone away.
>> Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. What? What
is
>> there's a peak in 2010?
>> There's a peak in around December 9th.
2010.
>> Wait, wait. That's 20
>> a peak in 2010. That's weird.
>> Something could have happened. We could
look it up.
>> I wonder what it was.
>> It probably was in a movie.
>> Yeah, it seems pretty steady. Well, the
reason that I said that is that I would
make this reference because you used to
be able to refer to Freeird. It was a
meme. Everybody knew it.
>> Yeah. People would yell at
>> And then there was a period of time
where no young person had any clue what
I was talking about.
>> And I I know. Oh, that's interesting
because they they still knew Stairway to
Heaven. If you remember these like top
500 songs of all time.
>> Yeah.
>> And then it would always come down to
the last two and it would always be
Freeird and Stairway to Heaven. Those
would invariantly,
>> right?
>> Then suddenly nobody knew what freeird
was and now everybody knows again. So I
I I
>> Yeah.
>> I I I will be I will stand corrected,
but there was a period of time where
young people didn't know it.
>> Well, is this Google trends? Is that
what that is, Jamie?
>> Yep.
>> So it's just people looking up.
>> I could even go like that's probably
when they put the video on YouTube for
the first time or it became available on
Apple for the first time to download and
it was only on Napster or something like
that. to go back to the the blues aspect
of it. It's blues-based
rock that feels like that thing that you
and I relate to.
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You know, we're not most I I'm really
into the blues, but that's it's its own
controversy because when black audiences
stopped showing up to blues shows, the
performers got worse because the the
audience was a huge part of the
experience.
I I tell you about this argument I got
into with John Mayer about the blues.
>> No.
>> So I I ran into John Mayer um
where was it? Sameti bungalows and I've
been in awe of that guy intellectually.
When he talks about music I get so much
out of it. Just very perceptive very
brilliant guy.
And so I was uh you know really excited
to meet him and we get into this
discussion and I said you're like a huge
Stevie Rayvon fan and I said I I I
really don't get it. I like him. I think
he's a great player but I don't
understand the focus. And he said oh I
can explain that. He says I I came from
the MTV generation and he was the blues
packaged for us. Like a genius guy for
sure but packaged for MTV.
>> Mhm.
He said, "But you know, blues isn't
really um
blues isn't a is isn't a real musical
form. It's an ingredient." I said, "What
are you talking about?" He says, "Well,
you would never go to a blues show."
I said, "I can't believe I'm saying this
to John Mayer, but I don't think you
know what you're talking about."
>> House of Blues. [laughter]
>> It's literally
>> Well, he meant something. So the the
thing is is that I caught the end of
black audiences,
like old black people listening to the
blues and paying for it. So there's who
pays and who plays and and black people
are still paying for blues, but a lot of
them aren't sorry are still playing
blues, but a lot of them aren't paying
for it. So when I go, for example, to uh
see Cadillac Zach's Maui Sugar Mill show
every Monday night, I go occasionally in
uh in Tarzana. It's like
70year-old and up white people. So you
see like hot chicks in their 80s and
crop tops dancing and
that's what it is now. It's like a
really old crowd keeping this thing
alive and I can't understand it because
it feels great, Joe.
>> Right. And um
and that's the thing which is like you
know Bonamasa he does these cruises
keeping the blues alive and my feeling
is like f that. We we've got to actually
get
people back into understanding what it
is. So if you picture those huge bands
that in your youth stop thinking about
the the band on stage rocking out and
pan in your mind into the audience and
what do you see?
Young people.
>> Young people.
What are they doing?
>> Dancing. Having fun.
>> They're dancing. There's some There's
some chick in a crop top on some guy's
shoulders rocking out.
>> Freeird.
>> When when hot chicks stop dancing to
your music, it starts to enter its death
throws.
>> Damn.
>> And that's true with jazz.
It's true with traditional R&B.
And it's true with the blues. It's true
with rock. And so the important thing
and I I keep telling people is that you
have to get people dancing. Once you
start becoming intellectual like Alan
Holdsworth, nobody's dancing to Alan
Holdsworth.
>> Maybe you are. [laughter]
>> It's not my [ __ ]
>> You have no idea to it. Jamie, what do
you think?
>> Dude,
>> I'm honestly You guys sound old as [ __ ]
right now. [laughter] There's so much
music and rock music in arenas right now
that's selling out.
>> What is rock in arena? I mean just like
there's a bunch of bands I could say
like Bad Omens, Bare Tooth, Korn just
posted a video in front of like S. Paulo
Brazil, 50,000 people going crazy.
>> Yeah. Like Mishuga. I I
>> it's out there.
>> Yeah.
>> But it's not what you you guys don't
like it either, you know.
>> Yeah. [snorts] But it's not is it's not
the big popular music that it was when I
was a kid.
>> There's only five artists in the world
that are popular like all over the
place.
>> That's right.
>> Because it's now micro. Right.
>> Right. Because there's too many bands,
there's too much music, too much
content. the the the control of the
institutions to tell us what we like
>> Mhm.
>> has uh has slipped, right? And so in
part, you know, like it it was our
version of Piola that
um you know, when I was growing up in uh
in LA, it was KME and KOS that
determined or KQ. Those are the three
stations that mattered. And they told
us, here's here's the offering, boys.
This is what's on tap right now. You
know, are you into math core?
>> Do you think that's it? It's the death
of Because Wow. Now, now that you're
saying that, I'm thinking the death of
radio and the death of rock and roll,
they sink
because radio really stopped being a
thing.
[sighs]
Early 2000s, early 2000s, radio stopped
being a thing.
>> Well, remember when Limewire came
through and everybody could get all the
songs that they wanted,
>> right? That was an issue. But it it felt
like if anything I thought at the
beginning when like Metallica was
railing when Lars Lars Olrich was
railing against Napster, I'm like these
are just your fans. They're just your
fans that are getting your music for
free. Y
>> you're going to have to adapt, but they
still love you. And you know, don't you
make most of your money touring or I
don't know. I don't know what the
economics of it are, but they're going
to change. This is a new thing.
>> I know micro markets, you know, just
just in Prague metal there are so many
different flavors. I understand, but but
what we're getting at is that the radio
sort of dictated what became popular in
a lot of ways. And things become popular
in more of a sense of a viral way.
>> Sure. Well, one thing is that these
clips, if your clip gets picked up by
Tik Tok and Instagram reels, that's, you
know, some tiny fraction of of a song is
the catnip that leads everyone to your
door.
>> 100%. I've downloaded many many songs
that way.
>> But I I I was uh hanging with Misha
Mansour who was making the Jamie claim
like you you got old grandpa. And his
point [laughter] Yeah.
The thing is I I have at least the
courage to hang out with actually cool
people. He said you know his point was
you you're just not even watching it
correctly. And I said what do you mean
Misha? He said video games video game
the music in video games matters much
more than you imagine. And it's like
totally right.
>> That makes sense.
>> And so you know what we are thinking
about in get off get off my lawn mode
>> right
>> is there was something lost and it
hasn't been reborn anywhere. So that's
the part that young Jamie is not getting
correct.
Something was just lost now. Lots of new
stuff sprouted up. But like EDM and
DJing is really where a lot of that
dancing hot chick energy went.
>> That makes sense.
>> Yeah. Right. And then like if you ever
>> that's where guys want to go where the
dancing hot chicks are.
>> They will follow anywhere.
>> Right.
>> Right. And and you know that's the whole
>> I was in uh
>> what's this Jamie?
>> This is EDC Vegas [clears throat] 2026.
This is just the example of what you're
saying. Like
>> is this a electronic?
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. This is like as big as it gets.
But look at the stage. Look at all these
lights.
>> I wonder if Molly didn't exist, how much
of this would be out there?
>> I mean,
>> it's a good question, right?
>> LSD didn't exist, how much of that music
wouldn't have gotten big, too.
>> Oh, a lot. Yeah.
>> But yeah, this is where all the girls
hang out,
>> right? And so like I found myself in in
Vegas
>> except for Ella Langley. That was sort
of antithesis antithesis to that. But
>> what is Ella Langley? What's that? She's
uh biggest country artist in almost ever
now. first female with like two top 100
songs ever.
>> How am I so out of the loop?
>> Um because
>> what is her big song? Oh, I know that
song. That song's great.
>> Yeah, she's got another one now. And
>> and has she been around for a long time?
>> Nope. Pretty new. She's like 24.
>> And she's killing it.
>> Murdering it.
>> So part part of what's going on is
there's no way to monitor. Like even if
you have really current young people,
they're monitoring a subset of what's
going on. Nobody nobody's tracking the
whole thing,
>> right? And but why country though? Why
is country exploding the way it's
exploding?
>> Well, because we're all in a meaning
crisis. If you think about the way in
which uh
>> country music for example can develop a
story through uh tropes very very
quickly.
>> Yeah.
>> Right. And so in part uh the idea is
that story songs and a return
you know try that in a small town uh is
transgressive.
Try that in a small town is a [laughter]
it's a really powerful message, right?
>> You don't have to say a lot.
>> And we all want the cowboy. We all want
the girl at the county fair, you know.
Um we just don't know how to get back to
her,
>> right? All right. We don't want a
wholesome existence.
>> You know,
I got a barbecue stain on my white
t-shirt. That's Tim McGra, right? Like,
you know, she's killing that that
minikrt. You know, heart don't forget
something like that. Beautiful story.
very very quickly told.
Now, it's old now, but the point being
um
hiphop and its storytelling and the
return to spoken word and poetry and the
legacy of the talking blues
had a had a great run, spread worldwide.
You know, you talk about whites taking
over. What do you mean whites? like
Tamils
and you know indigenous Peruvians are
have taken over hip-hop in in their
local sectors. Uh so hip-hop was just
this great platform that once uh every
local culture figured out some version
of that. And I talk about um when it
entered Bollywood there was a song
uh
you know mama look your your child is
being ruined and it has this like um
hey mom hey dad don't moan and groan why
don't you learn to live with the times
and please leave us alone. M um
>> this is every generation's message.
>> Yeah. But it's like it's delivered in uh
you know boogie woogie reggae rap rock
and roll and bungra you know and it's
like trying to it was the first lame
attempt at rap that I saw in a Bollywood
film with Jackie Shro and
they've all made it theirs and so I was
hanging out in India now with a DJ
um on his program uh Untriggered
and
it's changing the the developing world
um at a level that rock and roll changed
us. It was a you know the music of
liberation. John Mayer's point of course
is that the guitar the electric guitar
retains the stylistic characteristics of
cars in the 1950s
and that thing was the twin experience
of having a car and having a guitar was
was personal expression and liberation
forif for American males in the 50s. M
>> so
um yeah I I but I think a lot about our
guitarist friends because they're
suffering. The world's greatest
guitarists are living today and nobody
cares.
They all follow each other. The funny
thing is if you start following these
people on Instagram as I do
um I look to see which of my friends are
following the great guitarists
and it's other great guitarists. It's
none of my normal friends.
>> Like how many of my normal friends know
who Tim Henson is? A great Texas
guitarist. Uh
>> I do.
>> This man, you know.
>> Do you?
>> Yeah.
>> What kind of music?
>> Oh, man. I can't even explain it. He He
pretty much invented a genre that only
he mastered and is can explain.
>> It's like Texmech
melodic.
If I had a glass and I broke it, if I
took TexMax and I broke it on the ground
and I reassembled it from different
things and it's completely angular and
an idea will last, it's like a
psychedelic thing where it'll last for 5
seconds and it'll be onto the next thing
and it's just angular and fragmented and
sewn together and beautiful and
inspiring.
>> Give me some J.
>> Yeah, I have to I have to play it for
you cuz the drummer and bass player are
also awesome but pretty much revolves
around the guitar. And you see the thing
is that they're so tight with each other
that um you know a better example even
than this would be this thing that they
released called Goat which was the thing
that put them on the map. Um and
>> that was great.
>> It right. Also Tim is just like the
loveliest human being
>> as a young boy.
>> Boy him before he got all the crazy neck
tattoos.
>> Oh.
[music]
Well, that's [music] just broken out. I
don't know.
>> That's not Tim, is it?
>> They posted it.
>> This is This is a different different
human.
>> Oh,
>> let's hear the song.
>> Okay,
>> I think that's someone posting a riff.
>> That was their account.
>> Yeah, I know. But maybe he just put it
up there.
By the way, do you hear the Mexican
influence?
>> Yeah, definitely.
>> So, like this is
>> they're very unique. Very unique sound.
>> This is who I hang with. I love these
guys. This is this this matters to me
and this is new, right? And just the way
this uh what like Antoine de Patrin
that's taking over the world is
basically you hear the Middle East. Um
but these guys are basically into micro
tones. If you take 24 beats, you can
divide it by sixes, you can divide it by
fours. Uh, so the mathematics of rhythm,
um, you know, the stuff that like only
Vinnie Cayuda was able to do before,
people are sort of getting hip to,
things that were happening on oud are
now happening on microonal guitars. And
what it is, as I see it, is is like this
violent birth of people bored by
standard western forms. And I'm I'm for
this.
I'm not for all of the slop that, you
know, like young people are always into
the coolest stuff. No, they're not.
There are lame times. There are cool
times. There's really cool stuff
happening now, but it's it's
it's the fact particularly this Quebec
kind of thing that that broke out with
these guys in costume. Um, huh,
you don't know this. Antoine deport
something like that.
>> There's something
>> back costumes. What are you talking?
>> Like you remember the residents who were
this art group from San Francisco and
nobody knew who they were. They would
have giant eyeballs as heads and they
would play completely insane things like
Johnny Cash's Ring of Fire but in
angular bizarre ways.
>> I missed that too.
>> Okay.
>> Did you miss it?
>> I don't know where we're going. So
Antoine de Portrain is is this thing
that took over which doesn't sound like
anything. It's like that new thing.
So you know you because
[music]
>> [music]
>> So, look at that guitar's friends.
[laughter]
Now
[laughter]
>> the mathematics,
>> look at Jamie.
>> The mathematics of this is that there's
this freak fact which is that if you
take the octave, which is doubling of
frequency,
um you take the 12th root of it, break
it into 12 semmitones, and then take 19
of them stacked, 2 to the 19 over 12 is
equal to 2.996 something. It's almost
three. And that means that you can force
people into this quantized music where
you come up with this num number 12
which is magical for number theory
reasons and you can fool the ear into
thinking that 19 of these 12 semmitones
is a a complete tripling of frequency
and because of that we've been in
eventempered music since the time of
Bach and these guys are breaking us out
together with Jacob Collier they're
saying why would you accept accept that
as a prison.
>> And so how does stuff like this become
popular? Is it just viral?
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Because suddenly you see two guys in
costumes that don't look anything like
anything you know making music.
There's a moment where it switches into
six beats per unit into four beats per
unit because it's on a 24 cycle. And
suddenly you just feel good. And also,
if any of these guys get cocky, you
could just swap them out,
>> put a mask on some new guy, get him in
there.
>> No, but it's it's anti-goic. It's
anti-goic,
>> right?
>> Right. So, in part, you know, it's like
Buckethead.
>> Buckethead didn't want to be like, you
have trouble being Joe Rogan. I even
have trouble being Eric Weinstein. I'm a
fraction of a Joe Rogan. It's hard to be
well-known. And these guys are erasing
themselves. And that idea of, you know,
um, it's very funny. Tim Henson, I
think, has a song called Ego Death with,
uh, Steve Vi.
>> Um, ego death is really hot because
people are racing themselves is what
everybody isn't trying to do. Uh, who's
chasing clout,
>> right?
>> So,
>> and people like that.
>> Yeah. Because it's a form or
>> they don't just like that. They also
don't mind if you're chasing clout and
you say, "I'm chasing some clout,
>> right?
>> I'm trying to get that bag." So, what
they don't want is somebody saying like
Bill Gates,
>> right? I'm just looking out for humanity
and global health.
>> Exactly.
>> So, um, what I'm doing, I'm engineering
ticks so that they bite you and you get
allergic to red meat and I'm dropping
them off from helicopters.
We're going to administer vaccines
involuntarily through ticks.
>> Yeah. And mosquitoes.
>> Yeah. So, all of this stuff really
bothers people. It's the disen Well,
it's the dis
>> also he doesn't have any friends, you
know. And he can't get any [ __ ] anymore
cuz he keeps getting caught.
>> He can get it. [laughter]
>> But if we were smart, we'd feed that guy
[ __ ]
>> We did.
>> Keep him happy.
>> We did.
>> We I wasn't involved.
>> Neither was I. Yeah. Allegedly.
>> What do you mean allegedly? Just
>> kidding.
>> I didn't go to that island.
>> You didn't? Yeah.
>> No.
>> No. You were one of one of the people
that uh saw through him right away.
>> No, but he offered me partnership and I
didn't take it. And I regretted that for
a while
>> cuz you would have been chuch-ching.
>> I would have been made rich or deceased.
>> Probably both.
>> Probably both. Yeah. A couple times I've
been offered real wealth and with crazy
stuff, but the Epstein thing, I don't
know that I've actually said that on a
podcast. Um, yeah, he offered me
partnership and the only condition was
that I had to get rid of my existing
partners.
Like, I had to stab my partners in the
back in order to become his partner.
>> Oh, yeah. So, he'd own you.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, it's like, show me that you're
>> I don't want to sidetrack this. I'll
come back. But uh these two 333y old
aliens, time travelers, apparently, so
[laughter] they cannot be easily
replaced.
>> Yes, they can. That's horshit.
>> Look, I'll make a prediction. If these
guys haven't been unmasked,
>> you're going to unmask these guys and
you're going to find out that they've
got Middle East.
>> Well, please don't unmask them. They
already unmasked Banksy.
>> Can't we have some [ __ ] mysteries?
Damn it.
>> I think they're cool. I like that music.
That was fun. That was fun. Um,
>> I like viral things, too. I like things
that just spread just from weirdness,
you know, someone sends it to me. That's
what one of the things that I love about
Spotify. If I'm listening to something
weird, it'll suggest something weird,
you know, like that I've never heard of
before, bands I've never heard of
before, and all a sudden I click on it.
The suggestion thing, that's how I get
new music now. Or I use um what's that
[ __ ] app? Shazam. I use Shazam. If
I'm at a, you know, pool hall or
something, something cool comes on like,
"Oh, what is that?"
>> See, I
I do that, but then I end up in these
ruts.
Like, for example, I really like songs
that go between a minor and E major, and
that is so it just gives me more and
more of them.
>> Nerd.
>> You're a music nerd. [snorts] Well,
listen, that's your algorithm. There's
nothing wrong with that.
>> Okay. You're a mixed martial arts nerd.
>> I am. I know.
>> I'm also uh there's a lot of things that
are way more boring than that. Pool. I I
watch professional pool probably three
or four hours a day.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. That's how I escape. I escape in
the geometry and the movements, the
patterns.
>> Dude, you should have seen the comedians
in the physics department yesterday.
>> Oh, hysterically.
>> It must have been amazing.
>> Duncan and Kurt together. First of all,
together they are the [ __ ] dynamic
duo. They are such a good duo because
they're both sarcastic and they're
they're both like heavily engaged in
satire as far as they could.
>> Yeah.
>> But then um
I don't know whether I could tell these
stories.
>> Tell these stories. Tell them what
happened. What did Kurt do? [laughter]
>> So part of the
>> [ __ ] I love that guy. He's so awesome.
>> He's a real person. Whenever I he comes
into the mothership green room, I'm
like, "Yes,
>> give me a dose."
>> But he got real. He he gave me some wild
anti-Israel stuff. I think I couldn't
tell whether it was pro or anti. Um he
so at the end there was an
experimentalist who was like, "Come to
my come to my parlor. I I'll show you my
uh etchings." No, no, no. Cryogenic
giant vacuum tubes from hell or
whatever. So we all went down there and
so we're in the basement of the physics
department. And you can tell the
difference between the theory floor and
the like the part where they actually do
things. And these guys were just, you
know, were effectively at 77 degrees
before ABS above absolute zero with uh
conditions that only occur in deep space
inside of this thing coated in like tin
foil. So these guys are just cracking
jokes about growing weed and and uh
[laughter]
what happens if you put hydroponic weed
in that chain.
But the other thing is is that comedians
[snorts] are really
>> they're really intellectual nerds and a
lot of them, not all of them.
>> Those two guys are for sure.
>> For sure.
>> Yeah.
>> And they really wanted to know, okay,
what is it that you guys are doing down
here? And how do I understand?
>> The good ones are very curious.
>> Duncan's amazing.
>> Very curious.
>> Although he he drew it completely
pornographic.
>> I know. [laughter] He's making notes.
Yeah. Let me send it to Jamie because
Kurt sent it to me. This is the notes
Duncan was taking during the physics
[laughter]
>> cuz I'm like doing battle a little bit
with the there's one extremely smart
string theorist in the audience named
Jacques Distler
>> and so almost all the interactions
between Jacques and myself were we were
both being very collegial but it was you
know it was pretty pretty hot.
>> I said it to you Jamie
>> and uh and so he said while you were
doing that I I did a little sketch of
you. I I can figure out [clears throat]
your exact anatomy.
>> [laughter]
>> I It's a gift.
>> Well, you need something like that.
>> That's the last talk he's ever coming
to.
>> Oh, back to every one of them.
>> No, actually, I was really trying to
hook.
>> So, here he's taking notes.
>> Oh, no. Please
>> give me some volume,
>> Joe.
[laughter]
>> Thank you, Joe. [snorts]
>> Hey guys, I got some other things to do
this afternoon. It's been great.
>> Okay, BYE. [laughter]
>> Oh my god.
>> So,
>> oh Jesus. But yeah, I wanted
you know CP Snow did this uh famous
essay called the two cultures and it was
about how
um literary intellectuals and scientific
intellectuals used to be one group and
then they they moved apart and so now we
can't hear each other across the chasm.
I really wanted to create a pipeline of
not the SC seven scientists we see on
all of the talk on the podcasts, but
like
choose who you want to talk to, who's
doing cool [ __ ]
The comedians belong in our science
departments.
Otherwise, how are people going to know
what's going on? There's there's funny
[ __ ] happening.
Well, and by the way, the UFO thing
that's now blowing up.
>> Mhm.
[snorts]
>> There's going to be some crazy science
collision with the UFO narrative.
There's no way of stopping it at this
point.
>> So, you've turned a corner on this.
Let's talk about that because uh I saw
you on Jesse Michael's show and you were
talking about how just a few years ago
you thought that the entire narrative
was complete nonsense.
>> Probably five, six years ago by now.
>> And what changed?
Um
there was no way to explain.
So Jesse was going on and on about I
said, "Jesse, you're a smart guy and
you you you know I I often would call
him the back alley scholar." So he knew
a lot of stuff um
that was sort of forbidden knowledge and
he wouldn't be quiet about it.
So I I said, "Okay, I'm going to
disabuse you of the idea that you're
actually into something." And I realized
very quickly at a minimum, there is a
massive
denied program, like usually called a
special access program.
>> Mhm.
>> One or more.
There's no way to synchronize that
number of people who've had experiences
that are so similar.
And there was a lot of stuff that I
couldn't make sense of. And what
attracted me in a certain sense um
was I couldn't come up with any
explanation. It's so rare. I usually
have exactly the opposite problem which
is I come up with too many explanations.
I can't come up with a single
explanation that makes sense of what I
now know. And also the fact that the
government outreach to me and to Sam
Harris and to Lex Freriedman and you
know there was this thing where these
guys who checked out um said there's
going to be a massive disclosure and we
need people to disseminate these things
to the public and you have a share of
the of the public who listens to you and
we need to get you informed so that you
can help mediate the disclosure.
>> So what prompted this change in
narrative?
what's going on behind the Yeah.
>> with the government.
>> Yeah.
>> We don't know. We don't know. Look, we
don't know what the thing or things
is are yet. Um some of it is so again so
low quality that it's embarrassing to be
seen with it. So my colleagues who don't
want to take this seriously
uh use that like, okay, so you're you're
you're now on the little green men
train. And I said, no, I'm on the
special access program train. There is
there's for sure special access program
or programs
that have UFO on the side of them that
may or may not have aliens or craft or
non-human intelligence in them. It may
be that it's decoys. It's maybe I don't
know what it is. There's no way to deny
that there's like a giant lump under the
carpet.
>> And what what prompted you to change
your opinion and and and decide that
there is some sort of a special access
program?
when I started coming in contact with
totally sober people from reasonable
walks of life who would say the craziest
things to me and a lot of them checked
and they didn't yet know each other
>> like what kind of crazy things
>> um let me take somebody who's public
Brandon Fugal for example
uh was at a dinner where he started
talking about being visited by a craft a
few feet over the his head that came
over the mea and his head of security
was catatonic X standing in the back of
a pickup truck unable to move
and it was just way too specific
and a shared experience that multiple
people had had, right? Right. And so,
you know, the joke of course is that
uh the secrets of skinwalker rants or
you know, whatever this
>> um
>> there's real stuff going on there and
there's nonsense BS that the History
Channel has packaged to come up with the
salacious series and they're one is
funding the other. So, I don't know what
that is, but like the some of these
injuries are real and you know Yeah.
like Gary Nolan talking about people
reporting, you know, Gary Nolan told me
the story that somebody had said that a
ball of energy
would come and enter the body and move
around and then leave.
And he said, you know, the craziest
thing is is that when I inspected the
tissue,
there was a path of necrosis that can't
be explained like something that shows
up on imaging.
And that's Gary's a really smart,
serious guy. I can check a lot of the
things that he says scientifically. Why
would he say something like that? I
mean, I didn't see it myself, but
Well, he's also done some very strange
work on material science,
>> right? where he's analyzed particles or
little little pieces of metal and alloys
that have come from wreckages from the
1970s and60s.
>> Yeah. That I don't know the providence
like he'll carry around a little thing
and he'll show it to me. He'll say, "No,
you know, there's no combination
of of uh of materials and alloys that
that this matches that we know how to
produce." And I say, "Okay, it doesn't
mean anything to me." Again, it's just
it's all I I have no at this point. I
have no primary
um contact with anything anomalous. I
just have all sorts of secondary stuff.
And by the way, the thing that you saw
with the Jesse Michaels in American
Alchemy,
um boy, did that get a response inside
the government that particular episode.
>> How so? I had a lot of people who had
stopped talking to me about UFOs who
suddenly, you know, I had like eight
calls immediately after it aired. Hey,
Eric, just thought I'd catch up with
you. I was like, oh, okay. There was a
huge discussion inside
>> um and the first uh without getting into
particulars, the first official
outreach,
like really official outreach, the
checks
in the wake of that episode. And I'm not
under any NDAs. Nobody's told me
anything that I can't discuss. That that
may change.
Um, one thing that's very clear to me is
that when I hear something from many
sources, I I don't need to protect it
anymore. It's already out. Okay.
I have now heard the white sand story
from many sources.
This is the one where the crafts
hovered over the base, shut down the
nuclear program. Is that it?
>> I'm just going to say what I can say
that's fuzzed out that can't be traced
to anybody.
>> Okay.
>> Um
I was very upset with this shutdown of
the El Paso airspace.
>> That was recently.
>> Yeah. It was supposed to be supposed to
be we had a problem with cartel drones,
>> right? I don't believe that. I think
Texas is another name for New Mexico. I
think El Paso is a name for White Sands.
Can we get a map of the United States
that can focus on White Sands and El
Paso?
I think we have a problem that we've
lost control of our airspace.
>> You think this was part of what happened
in New Jersey as well?
[snorts]
I can't say as much because what I know,
no, what happened around New Jersey, I
don't have from as many sources that I
feel comfortable saying that this is
fuzzed out. I can fuzz out the El Paso
story. Nobody has told me that El Paso
was shut down because of the problem at
White Sands.
>> Okay.
>> People have said things about New
Jersey. That is
>> all right.
>> All right. So there's El Paso.
>> Also here at Whites Sands right above
it.
>> How far away is that?
>> My guess is about an hour
>> by driving.
>> Let's see. It's probably 60 70 80 miles
most.
>> Okay. So, I don't know what's going on,
but my my guess is
So, on Pierce Morgan, I said this thing
um which is that New Mexico is the
connector of the nuclear story, the
Epstein story, and the UFO story.
They're all going to come together.
Remember
when we were only talking about the
island?
>> Mhm.
Somehow I think I was the first person
to seize on this. There's this thing
that isn't an interview which is Steve
Bannon trying to train Jeffrey Epstein
how to respond to rehabilitate it.
And if you can find this, this is
>> I've seen it.
>> Okay.
>> It's very weird. So he says,
"Um,
you want to know about why I got Zoro
Ranch in New Mexico?" Can we play this
clip? Can you find
I think Jesse repackaged it after I
pointed it out.
But this is the story that like somehow
we we're so hung up about sex. We're
either angry about trafficking or we're
getting off on the idea that all these
rich people um are going to get their
comeuppants or you know we keep turning
the Epstein story into something other
than a scientific espionage story which
is one of its one of its facets.
>> It's one component.
>> It's one component, right?
>> Yeah. But we but it doesn't excite us
that this is a guy spying control of
science Joe
is not something that is officially a
big issue and it is a massive issue.
>> It's not publicly a big issue.
>> That's correct. Yeah.
>> And he clearly had a let's back up big
interest in
>> so why did I buy a ranch in New Mexico
1993? So that's gives you some sense. So
I would have funded it in 1990.
Uh, Los Alamos, which was the high
energy lab up in New Mexico, was losing
all its scientists.
>> Los Alamos, it was where Oppenheimer
where the where the a lot of the the
nuclear weapons program, the bomb,
>> that's where Manhattan Project
>> Manhattan Project was as Los Alamos and
you bought your property out in New
Mexico to be near that.
>> Yes. because the scientists were going
to be they cut the funding for high
energy physics but the people who worked
in Los Alamos would still be in the
Santa Fe area.
>> They cut that because the end of the
this was the cold war dividend, right?
>> I don't remember exactly why it was
because again people thought there was
that physics and high energy physics
really wasn't that important
>> because that was about nuclear weapons.
>> No, it was because they were trying they
decided was maybe not right. This was
the same time that Murray Galman came up
with the term quark. Q U A R K. He he
picked it out of a old poem, the word
quark. But it was something it was
mysterious. So they were starting to
understand in the '9s that the in the
our world of the physical world there
was things that were just unexplainable.
They called it strange things. You gave
it a name. You gave it some
characteristics. You called it had charm
was one of the ter had a charm. It had a
flavor. It had a color. But nobody
really No one, Mr. Bannon, understood
what it was,
just like the financial system.
>> And you wanted to investigate that.
>> I I wanted to see if we could build
tools so others smarter than me could
help investigate it.
>> And that was the beginning of your
concept of the Santa Fe Institute.
>> Yes. And Santa Fe Institute was founded
to do study in this type of
>> can you can these areas of strange
things be described by some form of
mathematics.
>> Okay. Now what you're seeing there is
fascinating like just take by the way
very well isolated exactly the bit that
I wanted
in that interview or that training. He
claims to have founded the Santa Fe
Institute.
Santa Fe Institute was founded, I think,
in 1984, not 1990 or 1993.
Bannon clearly knows more about why
these scientists were being defunded
than does the person who buys this
property. Now, that property is not only
close to Los Alamos, it's also close to
Sandia National Laboratory.
what you like people said to me, Eric,
you said he was an idiot. He's clearly
very knowledgeable. Um, you can see
there that you were wrong. I like that
is an actor. That is not anyone smart
with
proximity to Murray Galman and others
like he he knew Murray Galman well.
Murray Galman didn't name Corks in 1990.
That was goes back to like the 60s when
George Wy called them aces and Gelman
called them quirks for three quirks for
Muster Mark that came out of James
Joyce. So he's he's just repeating stuff
that he doesn't understand.
And why did he buy the house Zoro Ranch?
to be close to the scientists whose
funding was cut. The people who make
weapons and who do high energy physics
who had the rug pulled out from under
them by the United States when they won
the Cold War by putting this pressure on
the Soviet Union.
Like there's nothing more important than
theoretical physicists, you idiots.
And and you don't fund these people and
you don't watch them. Like the
Department of Energy is supposed to have
counter intelligence
to stop creeps from hanging around the
national labs, which is America's secret
university system. Hello.
And
that's what he was doing.
He was buying a property to be close to
the national labs in New Mexico that
make the weapons and that are in charge
of trying to figure out the future. So
if you think about the national labs as
this parallel thing to the university
system, but it's the secret part where
you have to be American and you have to
have a security clearance and all this
kind of stuff.
Epstein set up a listening post.
Now what are what's the UFO story? The
UFO story is all about nukes.
And what was Epstein doing in Cambridge,
Massachusetts? The analog of Zoro Ranch
is named One Brattle Square. It's right
in the heart of Harvard Square. You
know, I know it like the back of my
hand. It's a 7minute walk to the science
center. The Harvard Science Center on
floors 3, four, and five is where the
math department is. And who was
Epstein's initial contact in the math
department?
It wasn't Martin Noak who he funded. It
was a different guy named Benedict
Gross. Dick Gross was an expert in
number theory and an elliptic curves.
And elliptic curves are what power the
cryptography behind Bitcoin, behind
public keys.
You're talking about a guy who was
setting up listening posts [snorts] next
to extremely sensitive stuff that we've
stupidly left unprotected in the open
university system or defunded in our
national lands.
>> And when you say listening posts, like
what do you mean bugs?
>> No, no, no,
>> no. He just has remained in contact with
these people.
>> Joe, you've got real money. Guys with
real money use dinner.
Dinner is an incredible thing. I watched
Peter Teal use dinner.
Fly people in for dinners. You put
people up in a nice hotel for three
nights. You serve them amazing food from
a private chef. You get a black car to
collect them and they'll tell you
anything.
I don't think that mean that Peter was
doing this in an evil way, but I watched
dinner after dinner after dinner as
people disced all they knew because they
were so happy they're getting a $200
bottle of wine and being treated like
humans,
you know, like respected.
So, in part, you have to understand that
dinner in and of itself or a mansion
or a first class ticket is all it takes
to get people to start talking.
Uh, Jeffrey Epste was CIA. The
communications network at Zoro Ranch
prove it. The DOJ's own file showed
Epste built a militaryra encrypted link
to satellite orbit at Zoro Ranch. The
contractor who built it now holds a
Pentagon missile defense contract.
>> So remember,
>> I didn't know about that. I just
>> Jeffrey Epstein is a construct.
>> You know, there's this whole question
about like why won't Jews talk about
Jeffrey Epstein and the sex [ __ ]
>> It's like as if I haven't been on this
since 2004.
>> Yeah. No one can accuse you of not
talking about it. If they can, they're
just being ignorant. No, they're being a
[ __ ] because it used to be super
dangerous.
This was [snorts] like one of the really
costly things is to say
>> So, what do you think that was though?
This satellite
encrypted.
>> All right, let's let's go there. But I'm
a little bit nervous. Um,
why was Jeffrey Epstein able to get all
of these people much richer than him
into his orbit?
That's the question you should be
asking.
So, here's my theory.
>> Okay,
just be careful.
Okay.
What happens when you become a
billionaire? I don't know. Not there.
Nowhere close.
What happens is that you find out that
it's not what you thought it was. First
of all, you now have staff everywhere.
You can't move around easily because you
need a security detail,
right? When I first met Peter Thiel, I
said, "Wow, your security detail on this
beach is amazing. I can't even tell
where they are." He says, "Am I supposed
to have a security detail?" Like, Peter,
you've got to be kidding. Now, he's got
one.
So, the first thing is is that you find
you you lose your privacy. You lose your
freedom of movement. You've got a
retinue of people who have to be
constantly maintained. They're under
your roof, and you're like, "This isn't
what I signed up for. I wanted to be
rich. Like, well, you are rich. You can
buy things. Well, you can't buy privacy.
You can't buy freedom. You can't buy
anonymity. All these things that you
want. And you can't buy the ability to
do fun, naughty stuff. I'm not talking
about little kids. I'm saying like
if you're going to take drugs, you're at
risk of, you know, having everybody want
to tell the story. If you want to have
uh a Minaj, you're at the same risk. So
the question becomes,
what do I do to to get what I thought I
was going to do, which is the right to
have freedom over my own life and to
misbehave in fun ways, whatever.
Nobody can figure out how to do it.
Jeffrey Epstein could do it. Now, why is
it that he could do it?
Who's spoken to the contractors who
built his island? It's the most obvious
thing to do. If I was an investigative
journalist, that's what I'd do. I talked
to like the plumbers, the maids,
all of the people who are just working
for a living. Those are the people who
constantly leak information about their
employers.
Well, who's the only person who has a
who has the ability to build something?
The CIA has its own for has its own
construction company.
sovereigns, countries, nations have the
ability to do stuff where
they know how to keep things under
wraps. If you think about S4,
I guarantee you there's a men's room at
S4.
Well, who cleans it? That's a really
important question because that's the
weak link. And so rich people haven't
figured out how to be rich.
That's what everybody was attracted to
in that upper income bracket
>> that he would provide them with
experiences.
>> He would provide them with things that
they couldn't figure out how anybody
could provide because they were dealing
with a state.
I assure you that the Sultan of Brunai
knows how to do stuff because he's both
an individual and a state.
Most of us
are either in this sort of black ops
world
or we're dreaming about being very rich
[snorts]
or just norm normal human beings. The
very rich are very disappointed.
Epstein felt rich as I said before in a
movie sense. He had freedom.
He could say and do things that other
people couldn't.
You know, Elon
is constantly tripping over the fact
that
I think he's a wild guy. I'm up for wild
guys. I want cowboy billionaires, cowboy
physicists, cowboy everything.
>> But in general, we don't want cowboys.
>> And you know, again, this has nothing to
do with little kids. That's a different
thing,
>> right?
>> But if you want to go take drugs, take
drugs.
If you want to have a minaj, have a
minaj. Fine. I don't want to hear about
it. I don't don't spill the tea. I can't
stand this culture. Epstein knew how to
keep quiet stuff quiet. And why is that?
His product, as I've said before, was
silence.
If you want a really dangerous question,
ask the question,
um,
what did the people who were in his
direct orbit have an unusually high
number of disappearances?
around them.
>> Did they?
>> I don't know. But it's a dangerous
question. I've never investigated it.
But that's Have you ever seen You
Everybody talks about eyes wide shut
now.
>> Mhm.
>> You notice that nobody talks about
crimes and misdemeanors where Woody
Allen is directly in his orbit.
>> God, I don't even know if I've seen that
movie.
>> There is a scene where Martin Landau
and Jerry Orbach's characters are a pair
of brothers. I think that they only meet
on screen once.
And Martin Lando is having an affair and
the woman has decided that she has
rights
and Martin Landau is a very wealthy
opthalmologist or something like that.
And he has a brother who's a Starker.
Starker being the Yiddish word for a
tough guy.
And
it's one of the most Can we find
Jerry Orbach Martin Land Crimes and
Misdemeanor is the most blood curdling.
So well done.
>> Which the scene description though, you
didn't really get to it.
>> Well, they're only in one if they're
only in one scene together. They'll be
at a this I haven't seen it in ages, but
it my memory is that they're at a house
walking around a pool and then they walk
inside to the pool house
and there's a resentment that the
brother who's in the life
um
is only called to the house
occasionally,
right? And it's this way in which the
gentiel and the people who can get
things done that you're not allowed to
do in the within the law are connected.
And so Woody Allen is clearly writing
this from personal experience. He has
some
interaction between being in high
society and knowing Starkers.
And I actually
knew um his old Woody Allen's old
producer is the father of a friend of
mine. So, a guy named Jack Gberg and
Jack Gberg was a epitome of a tough Jew
in Hollywood who would deal with the
teamsters or when there was a labor
dispute and you know he wasn't in the
life but he was a guy who could stare
down a mafioso.
Um I think that in part Woody Allen is
writing about what Jeffrey Epstein was
providing which was a measure of
silence.
>> Is this it?
>> No, no, no.
>> Okay. Well, then I don't know.
>> No, we're looking for Martin Landau.
and Jerry Orbach in crimes and
misdemeanors.
>> Yeah. That's going to be hard to find
cuz it's uh
>> that one right there.
>> Yep.
>> Okay.
>> I think that this is the scene that
nobody's talking about.
>> I don't know, but she's killing me.
>> Wait. Want me to have somebody talk to
her?
>> Like what? Straighten her out.
>> What do you mean? Threaten her? That's
all I need.
>> How else do you expect to keep her
quiet?
>> Can you turn that up?
>> As low as I can get it, unfortunately.
>> Okay.
>> Well,
Christ, why do you suggest?
>> What did you call me for?
>> I don't know. I I hoped you'd have more
experience with something like this.
>> You called me because you needed some
dirty work done. That's all you ever
call for.
>> Look how bitty you are.
>> You've staked me plenty of times. I
don't forget my obligations.
>> Threatening will only make it worse,
Jack.
>> Okay, forget about it. What do you want
me to say?
>> How the hell can I forget about it? I'm
fighting for my life. This woman's going
to destroy everything I've built.
>> That's what I'm saying, Judah. If the
woman won't listen to reason, then you
go on to the next step.
>> What? Threats? Violence? What are we
talking about here?
>> She can be gotten rid of. I mean, I know
a lot of people. Money will buy whatever
is necessary. I'm
>> not even going to comment on that.
That's mindboggling.
>> Well, what did you want me to do when
you called me?
>> Not to do dirty work, despite what you
think.
Anyway, it's gone beyond just Miriam
now. She's
She's talking financial doings.
I'm out of ideas.
>> I don't know what I expected from you,
Jack, but
>> you know, you're not aware of what goes
on in this world. I mean, you sit up
here with your four acres and your
country.
>> I don't want to hear about my sister
>> and your rich friends and out there in
the real world. It's a whole different
story.
>> Come on. I've met a lot of characters
from when I had the restaurant. I've
heard these stories before
>> from 7th Avenue, from Atlantic City. And
I'm not so high class that I can avoid
looking at realities. I can't afford to
be aloof when you come to me with a hell
of a problem and uh then you get
high-handed on me.
>> Jack, I don't mean to be high-handed. I
haven't been sleeping nights. I'm
irritable. Okay.
>> Okay. Okay. Forget I said anything.
Let me just get something straight here.
Am I understanding you right? I mean,
are you suggesting getting rid of her?
>> You won't be involved. But I'll need
some cash.
>> What will they do?
>> What will they do? They'll handle it.
>> I can't believe I'm talking about a
human being, Jack. She's not an insect.
You don't just step on her.
I know playing hard ball was never your
game. You never like to get your hands
dirty. But apparently this woman is for
real and this thing isn't just going to
go away.
I can't do it.
I can't think that way.
So you while everybody's watching
Kubric,
this is a guy in Epstein's direct orbit.
This is what Epstein was. He was a
Starker.
He was a science spy. He was a Starker.
He had buttons.
And we're just all pretending like we
have no memory of this. no idea about
how we're all connected, how the highest
in society are connected to the people
who get things done.
>> And blackmail,
blackmail is a lot like we're
overindexed on in my opinion. Again, who
am I? I'm just a guest. But
>> but this is this assumption.
>> Well, is that I was very early saying he
was a construct when nobody would
listen.
>> Here's the next piece of it.
>> I think he had buttons.
He had button men at his control. He
made problems disappear. Things went
away. That's how you make sure that you
have the experience of being a king
rather than a billionaire.
The billionaires had more money than
him.
But they didn't have the ability to make
their problems go away.
And by the way, I'm not suggesting that
all the people in his orbit were
availing themselves of this as a
service, but if I was a competent
investigator, I would be talking to
Woody Allen and saying, [snorts]
"What did you mean by that scene?"
Look, because you think that scene is
directly connected to Woody Allen's
relationship with Jeffrey. I think that
that scene is directly connected to the
connection between Hollywood and
Teamsters and unions and organized
crime.
There are people who know how to make
things happen that aren't within the
law. What is the mafia? We go, we watch
all these mafia pictures, right?
>> Mhm.
>> The mafia is about contract enforcement
when you can't use the courts. That
doesn't sound like what the mafia is,
but that's what it is. It's a business.
What happens when you're in an illegal
business and you can't enforce a
contract,
>> right?
>> Yeah.
>> You have to use muscle.
>> So we we use gentiel like he says she
can be t should you want me to talk to
her?
>> We can handle it.
This is the gental language
of roughing somebody up,
killing somebody,
and making problems go away. So the
mafia is about business. It's not about
violence.
>> Okay. So his connection to scientist
though was the purpose of that.
>> We don't know. But I keep saying,
>> what's your assumption? My assumption is
is that he was a uh a clearing house
that somebody set him up at fair
expense. I'm going to say nine figure
expense. So I think this was a nine
figure fortune. Hundreds of millions.
And
what it had was it had the trappings of
multi-billionaire.
It had trillionaire
written all over it for a nine figure
fortune. So it's orders of magnitude off
of what it was. And I believe that that
that was only possible because there was
a collection of sovereigns behind him. I
don't think it was one nation. I think
it was a bunch of countries.
And the the most obvious country is not
Israel. It's the US because he was
operating on US soil. Do I think Israel
was involved? Certainly. Do I think that
the UK was involved?
I do. Saudi Arabia? I do.
I think that this was a massive piece of
structure con confused with a sex
scandal in a blackmail operation. We're
we're all sort of taking the bait. So
the sex scandal and all the sex stuff
was sort of to keep people happy and
give people a place to go to where they
could have these experiences. If you're
dealing with physicists or some high-end
scientist guy,
>> they don't have access to this. They
probably never been with a beautiful
woman in their life. All of a sudden,
they're hanging out. I'm not talking
about you, [ __ ]
>> No, I'm not talking about me either.
>> I'm sure you're fine.
>> Ain't talking about love.
>> Let's But let's be realistic. Most of
these guys aren't they're not hot,
right? And then all of a sudden they're
around tens who are giving them back
massages and drugs are being used and
there's this feeling of anonymity.
>> Yeah.
>> Of safety. You can get away with this.
Everybody else is doing it. It's been
going on for decades. It's fine. This is
the place you go and it's fun and they
look forward to it and they probably
also do have intellectual discussions
because you are surrounded by
>> who wouldn't want in.
>> Right.
>> Right. And so that's how he ropes you
in. That's right. But so what is his why
why scientists and what would be the
benefit of having access to these
scientists and having this place on Zoro
Ranch and being able to talk to these
people?
>> Think about it from the perspective of
who is doing the constructing rather
than the constructed. So he's the
construct.
>> Okay.
>> He's an incompetent.
>> He He just lied to Steve Bannon. Miss,
you see him touch his face. Classic tell
of lying.
>> Um
>> touching your face is a classic tell of
lie.
>> If you looked at what he just did the
way he did answer the question. Okay.
100%.
>> So he's lying about the information or
he's lying about his depth of knowledge.
>> Yes, he's lying about his depth of
knowledge.
>> So how did I know he was a construct? In
part one of the things like they're dumb
tells that we give away. One of his was
he was supposed to be a currency trader.
And when we say we're trading currency,
we're not trading currency. We're
trading what are called spot contracts
that are to be settled with an exchange
of currency in two days time. Right? So
in other words, if we if we if I do a
euro trade, it's really a dollar euro
trade and you and I are going to trade
dollars for euros and we agree to do it
in two days time. And then if you want
to keep the position on, you exchange
that contract for a contract that will
follow to erase that contract and form a
new contract with which pushes it out
two days. You call that rolling things
over.
>> Okay?
>> He didn't know that dollar Canada was on
a one-day contract rather than a two-day
contract where everything else. So in
other words, there was an anomaly and
anybody in currency trading would have
known that or I forget whether he didn't
know that uh
trading pounds for dollars is called
cable in the business. So there were
there were just dumb tells that he
didn't know about foreign exchange.
Yeah.
>> So you know he's claiming to be an FX
hedge fund manager to me and there were
there were stupid tells like that,
>> right? And then he like he knows way too
much about my exactly particular
specialty in mathematics.
Like
the number of people it could have come
from would be five or fewer.
Um so technically what I did my thesis
on is something called self-dual Yang
Mills theory which is about every force
other than gravity is a Yang Mills
force. except my thesis was really about
gravity and I didn't disclose it and
only people very very close to me knew
that that's what it was about. He was
obsessed with gravity
and
he shows up I think in the Harvard math
department in 2002 with Dick Gross
and clearly he was talking to people in
the Cambridge mathematical physics world
who would have been you know
There's something called the churn
Simons theory which is mistakenly
associated closely with Yang Mills
theory but is really all about gravity
and that my work really shows that there
is a parent theory that has churn
Simon's theory and gravity as its two
consequences. He knows about that
without knowing anything about the
structure and the subject matter. He
knows about the history of my stuff and
something called cyberwitten theory. He
doesn't know anything concrete. How does
he know all this stuff? He was in my
world
and he was very focused, you know, on I
I met him through Jess Staley
um who was at JP Morgan.
Now Jess Staley is deeply implicated in
this. I didn't know that at the time.
And
Jeff Epste has been mirroring my entire
life, everything that I do. And I became
wellknown when I was writing these
essays for edge.org and he was in with
John Brockman at the Brockman Literary
Agency.
Uh when I got married, uh the rabbi came
from Harvard Hill, which was a building
now called Rossovski Hall, which he put
together with Les Wexner's money.
um he was funding probably the
conference at the perimeter institute
that we did on the financial crisis. At
every turn in my life since I was a
young man, Jeffrey Epstein was there in
the background even though I only meet
him once.
>> Why do you think that is?
>> Because we're interested in the exact
same thing.
>> And why is that?
>> The the most powerful stuff in the
universe. Why is he interested in that
if he doesn't know the
>> what what do I care about? I care about
finance and financial markets. I care
about the CPI. I care about the fate of
Israel. I care about uh evolutionary
theory. I care about mathematics that
goes like geometry like the geometry of
elliptic curves but really more in
differential geometry. I care about
physics. every time that I care and I
care about the smart the world's
smartest people at a functional level.
Not the people with the highest IQ, but
the people who are irreverent enough to
actually move the needle. So, he and I
were just
we're interested in where's the action,
where's the high-end intellectual action
in the world that actually moves things.
And you know, quite frankly,
he was meeting in my offices in San
Francisco while I wasn't aware of it in
2017.
I didn't know that.
>> Meeting in your offices, meaning he went
to your office and met with who?
>> Well, with with Peter. That's in the
records.
>> About you?
>> No, I don't know. He he he hopefully
not. I know that I'm in an email that he
sends Peter late in the story, but I'm
I'm not going to discuss specifics. But
no, I was telling Peter not to deal with
him, and Peter thought I was overblowing
the the danger.
I I He scared me because
I know what element he came from.
That was not a refined person. That was
a scary scary person.
that that that was a person who came,
you know, like the Hesh character on the
Sopranos
>> or Mo Green in the in the Godfather.
Yeah,
>> that's that element
>> and you recognize that immediately.
>> I Well, that was my point in bringing up
crimes and misdemeanors. It's not like I
don't know people. I understand all
this, but what do you think his purpose
was? Like, so getting connected to all
these scientists, being around all this
knowledge, the New Mexico, I still don't
understand like what was the end game.
>> Can I get another drink?
>> Absolutely.
>> Thank you, sir. No, sir.
>> Can I share this article with you?
>> Please do.
>> Okay. This was the one I just pulled up
a second ago.
>> If we could get another ice cube, too,
that would be great about this. Um,
>> Jeff can get us an ice cube, please.
>> I would just down here. This kind of
This is a long article. I believe this
most of this comes from the Epstein
files that came out on the DOJ's
website. Uh this the woman who wrote
this, she's a former Boston Globe and
New York Times reporter, uh also LA
Times.
The summary here is what I was kind of
getting at because it kind of it's two
or three paragraphs, but it explains a
lot of what you're asking here. Standard
framing of Jeffrey Epstein as a MSAD
asset is well supported. Robert Maxwell,
Gla's father, sold Israel backdoor
promise software to Sandia National
Laboratories in 1985. His eldest
daughter, Christine Maxwell, built the
FBI's post 911 counterterrorism data
warehouse through her company Chilead.
Uh Isabelle Maxwell, Christine's twin
sister, co-founded Commouch with Israel
unit 8 8,200 alumni. Galain ran the
human intelligence operation, the Israel
intelligence network around both Maxwell
and Epstein is documented and
substantial. But the intelligence
infrastructure supporting Epstein and
Maxwell at Zoro Ranch points somewhere
else or to somewhere additional. It
points to the United States military
intelligence, plain and simple. The
contractor who built his encrypted link
to orbit is American, headquartered in
Georgia, and now holds a missile defense
agency contract. The satellite uplink
was authorized by an American FCC
license. The project was managed out of
New York office. The man who recruited
Epstein as a child served in the
American OSS and his own son was in
charge of the federal justice department
when Epstein died or didn't in its
custody.
>> Bill Bar and his father is who that's
referring to.
>> The man whose ranch provided the ideal
relay point was OSS built American
missile guidance systems and military
drones. And just up the road, another
former OSS guy, Carl Ing, sold his New
Mexico ranch to the strangest duo of all
time, Donald Rumsfeld and Dan Rather.
H
So this is what I've been trying to say
all along. The only country that I'm
absolutely positive was behind Jeffrey
Epstein is is us.
You can't operate here.
Look, right now we are in the middle of
endless anti-semitic Christmas just goes
on forever. And
you can [snorts]
you look at Jeffrey Epstein. I have no
question he was directly connected to
Israel, you know. Um but first and
foremost,
I believe that he and and I I hate when
we use the word asset.
you should use a vagger word because
those technical things like who's an
agent, who's an operator.
Uh, agent is a word used differently by
the FBI and CIA. Every time we try to
sound like we're cool, like we know what
the intelligence community actually is,
we make mistakes because we say
something that it becomes deniable,
you know. So, like there's a concept of
knock, nonofficial cover.
>> Mhm. You know, if you say somebody, you
know, is a knock and and you you guess
the wrong distinction,
they can say, "No, he wasn't. Was he an
asset?" Well, I'm sure that has a
technical meaning.
>> You don't mean it technically.
>> You mean was he in any way affiliated
with in the intelligence community, and
it's not just the intelligence
community. One of the ways that the
intelligence community functions as as a
cover for the special operations
community, right? Covert operations is
something the CIA does through ground
branch that is not intelligence.
So we call it intelligence and we give
them a free pass all the time. No, those
that those are the guys who do the wet
work. That's a paramilitary
organization.
Right. So my claim is that Epstein is a
major piece of structure having nothing
to do with the actor that they hired.
Okay. So, you think Epstein is
essentially just a construct figure head
of an intelligence gathering
organization?
>> No.
>> No.
>> Epstein is a construct. First, first of
all, second of all, there is an
intelligence part of the intelligence
community and there's a covert
operations part of the intelligence
community.
>> Okay?
>> Covert operations is not intelligence. I
know it's under that roof.
>> Right.
>> That is totally wrong.
>> Got it.
>> Right.
>> Okay.
>> So, if you want bad things to happen to
somebody, you don't call intelligence
because that's just human intelligence
or signals intelligence or whatever.
You're not going to call a cryptographer
to make a problem go away,
>> right? What does this have to do with
the science community?
>> One,
we have huge amounts of power.
The United States is terribly configured
because we pretend that we're okay doing
everything through our university
system, which shouldn't be done
in an open setting. Like, you have to be
honest about the fact that we're badly
configured.
>> What do you mean by that?
>> We didn't know how deadly physics was.
When Rutherford in 1911 said that
there's a neutron,
nobody I'm I'm sure nobody said to him,
"Oh my god, you've ended the plan now.
New humanity is doomed. So it used to be
the case that physics was something that
was like interesting and fun, but now
it's like the most deadly thing you can
imagine as well as being interesting
>> in a quick timeline too if you stop and
think about that. 41 years. Yeah. So
literally.
>> Yeah.
>> 41 years.
So my claim is that we are walking
around right now
with all of these extremely deadly ninja
prince priests in our physics
departments in our math departments who
don't even know that they're deadly
ninja priests.
They've never worked on something
classified. They've never solved
problems for our government. But in part
we fund our science our scientists as
part of a complex cryptic arrangement
worked out by Vanavar Bush that is now
remembered by essentially no one.
So the idea is you people Teller Ulam
Fineman Oppenheimer
von Nyoman
you are dev group you're you're steal
team six of the human mind you're Delta
and most of the time you're going to
teach classes
you know it's like Indiana Jones is you
know an archaeologist with a bow tie and
then he's running around with a whip and
you know killing people and
>> right [snorts]
>> okay that's what physicists and
mathematicians are
that's why we're funded that's why the
department of energy funds physics it's
not the department of energy it's the
department of nuclear weapons
it's the department of physics
>> so they let the physics people work out
all these problems and then they take
whatever their findings are and apply
them to weapons
>> boom vroom and zoom
>> right
>> and that changed the economy it changes
the ability to compute.
This is what this is who I really am.
This is what I really do. And I will not
mouth this narrative that all of my
colleagues will mouth.
Physics is interesting. Yeah. A lot of
the time it's dull.
You know, physics is international. Oh,
really? Why do you think the American
taxpayers funding this international
effort just to educate Chinese?
For all I know, we're trying to
sterilize the Chinese and the Indians
with string theory. So, because nobody's
talked to me about this, I can speak
freely, but if you ask me, you know, the
Indians are some of the most aggressive
string theorists on Earth. And my
question is, did do we import them in
such large numbers so that they'll go
home and be ineffectual?
>> That's crazy. So, that's a real
possibility.
>> Yeah. that string theory exists as a
distraction.
>> Joe, what do you think the odds are that
a scientist can say, "My failed theory
is the only game in town." and not get
laughed out of town.
>> Not so good.
>> Yeah,
>> I would imagine in a freethinking world,
not so good.
>> In a freethinking world, I would say,
"Ed Whitten, you're full of [ __ ] Who
talks like that? You're not you you're
the smartest person I've ever met and
you have not earned the right to say
that your failed theory. Your disaster
of a catastrophe
of a theory is the most failed theory in
history in physics and you're saying
it's the only game in town who died and
left you king. Sir, I want to bring you
to one of the weirdest theories that you
have.
>> All right. which is you talked about
this
very overly supported
physics department in this upstate
university, upstate New York University
that's attached to a hedge fund.
>> Sunni Stony Brooks mathematics
department and physics department.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> This is a weird one.
>> All right.
>> Because it's attached to a hedge fund
that does Bernie Maidoff type numbers.
Bernie Maidoff is a loser per
Joe. Bernie Maid off was regular and
that's why they called him the Jewish
tea bill.
>> Tea bill? What's a tea bill?
>> A treasury security that allowed you to
just earn some very boring, very high
rate of return where you were supposedly
having your money at risk, but you
essentially never lo there were like
almost no down months.
>> Mhm. Renaissance Technologies is like,
"No, no, no. Hold my beer. We're just
going to make numbers like nobody's ever
made in human history." There's nobody
in second or third place relative to
Renaissance Technology Medallion Fund.
And how is it connected to this
university? And what do you think is
going on up there?
>> One, I don't know, but something weird.
>> It's weird as hell. I I know I knew Jim
Simons personally.
Jim Simons
is a genius,
but a lot of other people are geniuses.
I hate to say it, but you can't swing a
cat in my world without hitting a
genius. So, he was he was great,
but he wasn't that much smarter
than every other genius at that level.
So I would say you know top hundred
minds in mathematics and physics clearly
better than that.
Jim started off working for the DIA, the
Defense Intelligence Unit.
Um
supposedly quit out of outrage over
Vietnam. Becomes the super young
chairman of the Sunni Stonybrook
mathematics department. holds a lunch
center seminar
with a guy who will become the world's
smartest living physicist, a guy named
Cen Yang.
And they discover over lunch a
connection between differential
geometry, Jim's
uh specialty, and Cienyang's
uh specialty, which is the standard
model.
Jim then quits,
forms
a hedge fund long before it's cool with
the father of another guest of yours on
this program, Brian Keading.
And the two of them both have medals, so
they call it medallion because they've
won prizes.
So what was his name? James Axe, not
Keing. Uh and the two of them start this
thing and it takes off at some level
that nobody's ever seen numbers before.
And then they institute this policy
which is we're not going to hire
financial experts. We're only going to
hire math physics people. So we're going
to hire geometers. We're going to hire
particle theorists, general relativists,
and machine learning people.
It's like
who who came up with this story?
Do you b do you buy this story? This is
so strange because it sort of also
mirrors a second story that was not
associated with Brook Haven which is the
national lab near Sunni Stonybrook but
associated with Los Alamos which is a
story called the prediction company
except in that case the name of the
person isn't Jim Simons it's Dwayne
Farmer
and the prediction company is the analog
of Renaissance. So what you see is that
once people have a pattern, it seems
like these patterns repeat.
So my point is if you ask the question,
do we have a Manhattan project in the
current era? We don't know. You don't
know. I don't know. But if we're allowed
to speculate, the question would be
where would it be located? So, how would
you find, for example,
the existence of a boy school in rural
New Mexico where all of these super
smart people are holed up?
That's a real puzzle. How would you
figure out that Los Alamos was happening
if that was your goal?
Um,
you'd look for indirect evidence. Can
you, Jamie, can you call up an article
called Forbidden City from 1944 by a guy
named unfortunately Jack Raper? R A P E
R.
>> Change your name, bro.
>> I know, right?
>> Please call yourself rapper. Add a P or
something.
>> So,
G before
>> in 1944. The craziest thing in the what?
>> G Graer.
>> Graer. Right. Exactly. Um,
>> there it is. Okay, so this article
appeared Monday, March 13, 1944.
Santa Fe, New Mexico.
The story of a secret city with a mayor
who is the second Einstein working on a
doomsday weapon where nothing leaks.
And this is from what year?
>> 1944.
>> Okay. So, the entire Manhattan Project
leaked
because a Cleveland journalist named
Jack Raper happened to vacation in New
Mexico and stumbled
on the greatest secret ever kept.
Really, dude? How can we not know this,
Joe? Wow. And it's all about
Oppenheimer. Residents must stay. Dr.
Oppenheimer is a Harvard graduate.
Attended Cambridge. She's a PhD from
Godham University in Germany. Germany, a
professor of physics, University of
California, California Institute of
Technology, and is a fellow of too many
organizations to enumerate. And so they
were recognizing that Oppenheimer was
doing something. They knew that he was
working on a doomsday device. Uncle Sam
has placed the city in charge of two
men. The men who command the soldiers.
I can't read it. We see that the garbage
and rubbish are collected, the streets
kept up, the electric light and plant,
and the water works functioning, and all
other metropolitan work operating smooth
is Colonel somebody. I don't know his
name, but it isn't so important because
the Mr. Big of the City is called
Professor Dr. J. Robert Oenheimer called
the second Einstein
>> by the newspapers of the West Coast. So
what I'm trying to say is Jack Raper
never got a Pulit surprise,
died in obscurity. Leslie Groves, who
was the other guy who running was
running the town, decided to send him to
the Pacific to punish him for being the
best journalist in America.
And when he found out he was 60 years
old, they decided, okay, we're just
going to ignore this story and hope
everyone else does because it's too
crazy to be real.
Now, what I'm telling you right now is
Raper never figured out what Los Alamos
was, but he knows that it doesn't make
sense. And I'm telling you, Renaissance
Technologies doesn't make sense.
>> So, these different what
>> another widespread belief is that he's
developing ordinance in explosives.
Supporters of this guest argue that it
accounts for the number of mechanics
working on the production of a single
device. And there are others who would
tell you tremendous explosions have been
hurt. Oh, that Jack Raper with his
overactive imagination. Haha. The
problem with conspiracy theorists is
that they say the darnest things, Joe.
>> Okay. So, what do you think they're
working on? These people at this upstate
New York University.
>> Well, what are we not working on? In
other words, how do you discover what
we're actually up to? Is in part you
listen for the holes.
What do I work on?
I work on the ability to get out of the
solar system. That is my life's mission.
I think Elon is a bit of a [ __ ]
[laughter]
>> Okay. How so?
>> I don't know. He won't meet with me.
>> Well,
>> it's okay.
>> Maybe because you call him a [ __ ]
>> Yeah. No, but
>> maybe he's busy. Maybe he's trying to
make chicks pregnant.
>> No. [laughter]
something he does to with recreation.
Elon's a genius and Elon is trying
to replace scientists with Grock
and one of the things I I was on an
Indian podcast uh called the guy's name
is beer biceps guy Ranvir he's the Joe
Rogan of India and
>> what's his name
>> uh Ranvir Alabadia can you find him
>> shout out to Ron Ver
>> yeah so Ron Ver is a friend of mine in
Verova and I went on his podcast and I
before SpaceX X and X and XAI merged. I
said um
I said look I don't think SpaceX is
Elon's space program.
His space program is Grock.
Elon doesn't trust scientists for good
reason because they're weak.
So he's building his own scientist from
when when we were strong. He's going to
have it read the corpus of physics done
by competent physicists who actually
care about the physical world so he
doesn't have to deal with any of us.
That's why he won't meet. It's not
because he's not interested, not because
he doesn't know.
Um I invited him to the talk as I did
you yesterday.
The goal is to get out of the solar
system and we're so far away from
everything good that there's no way of
doing it under relativity.
So why are we not researching the only
thing that can save us which is
diversification? We need to spread out
to the largest number of habitable
worlds possible.
>> So this implies some sort of a new
propulsion system.
>> This implies new science. Stop thinking
technology. There's no way to you can't
engineer your way out of a science
problem. You have to science your way
out of it.
>> And what would be that science?
>> Post Einstein, post relativity. That's
what I do.
And how would that apply to us leaving
the solar system?
>> We don't live in spaceime. Spacetime has
a speed limit.
>> Explain that.
>> If you can only go the speed of light at
your best and you can't even get
anywhere close to that, how are you
going to get to something four years o
light years away?
>> Okay.
>> Um
in a fantasy world by the time you go
and come back even assuming all no be no
>> assume you can go at under the speed of
light. just under. You can use time
dilation and relativistic effects to
your benefit, but it's going to cost you
eight years to go and come back,
>> right?
>> Okay. I don't want to do that. If I'm
going to explore the cosmos, I don't
want to use I don't want to live in
space.
>> So, what are the alternatives?
>> The observers.
The successor to spacetime, I'm happy to
predict this on your show, will be named
the observerse, which is a combination
of not just using a four-dimensional
space-time manifold, but a 14 and a
four-dimensional space simultaneously.
This was what I was talking about at the
university yesterday.
>> And how would that like when you say the
difference between science and
technology?
>> So, how would that science be applied?
>> If we look at the surface of this table,
I can't do this to it. can't spread it
apart, move it, right?
>> It's called pinch to zoom, right?
>> It's a multi-touch gesture invented
around 2003 or something, debuted at
TED.
>> But if I come to this device, I can do
that
>> your phone,
>> right? So imagine that this is spaceime.
>> Okay?
>> And this is the observers.
So if I want to go to a distant star,
there's no way I'm going to just go
really fast, right?
>> That's dumb. Um, and I need an energy
source and I need to do things that we
can't normally do. You have to jailbreak
spacetime. If Einstein is in force, we
all die. If we go beyond Einstein, some
of us will live and some of us will die.
And what would be the energy that you
would need in order to do this?
>> So that how do you unlock this?
One is maybe it's not that energetic to
to do these things. energy is is um
technically
time momentum.
You can talk about momentum in the x
direction, momentum in the y, momentum
in the z. Fine. What's momentum in the
time direction? It has a different name.
We don't call energy time momentum, but
that's what it is. So, first of all, I
don't believe that there's one direction
of time. There's no arrow of time.
That's not true. I believe that time is
multi-dimensional. The only dimension
that has an ordering
is one dimension. So in other words, if
I say to you, um, Joe has two cigars,
Eric has none. Who has more cigars? Joe.
Okay. Joe has two cigars, but Eric has
three glasses and no cigars. Joe has one
glass and two cigars. Who has more
stuff? Well, now it's not clear because
Eric has more glasses than Joe.
But Joe has more cigars. So in two
dimensions, we no longer can say this is
better than that for things where you
have more of one and less of another.
>> Okay,
time is like that. In one dimension,
there's an arrow. There's an ordering.
We call it it's it's uh it's, you know,
like a well-ordered set or something. In
two dimensions, all bets are off and and
two and higher.
The number of dimensions in total is
going to be either five or seven.
And
each of those dimensions has a different
kind of energy.
So in other words, energy is unique
because there's only one time dimension.
But as soon as
time has multiple dimensions, you can
talk about multiple forms of energy just
the way you can talk about momentum in
the x direction, momentum in the y
direction, or momentum in the z
direction.
So, in part, what I'm trying to do is to
jailbreak spacetime. That's what I'm
actually doing.
And I'm doing it with zero support, with
no confirmation that this is real
because something is controlling my
entire community to make this funny
haha. Just like Forbidden City was, Jack
Crer Jack Raper has gone mad. He thinks
that there's a city in New Mexico where
there's a mayor who's a second Einstein
developing a doomsday weapon. Is that
funny? What a loon that guy. What an
idiot.
That's what's going on, Joe. So, how do
you think that technology could be
applied to these ideas in order to
create some mode of travel?
>> Pinch to zooms, Joe. Right. But how how
would that be done?
>> So right now we're in a four-dimensional
world. Call that flat land.
>> Okay.
>> Imagine that there are 10 perpendicular
dimensions called symmetric two tensors.
>> Four of those are spatial
directions and six of them temporal or
four of them are
uh temporal and six of them spatial. I
can't tell you one of those two.
>> Okay. But there are additionally either
four or six extra time dimensions
or six or four space dimensions.
We have to gain access to break out of
flat land. We live in flat land. We
don't know we live in flat land. And I
know what that technically the name is
fiber dimension.
What it is. we have to gain access to
it, which is discovering that somebody
gives you a an obsidian rock that has a
property that you've never seen before
called pinch to zoom. So, I need to make
the distance to the nearest star small
so I can go with reasonable speed
>> or instantaneously.
>> I don't need instantaneously.
If if I have something four light years
away and I can make it 100 ft away, I
can walk 100 ft easily enough you know I
I I can push something
>> right.
>> So the idea is if I can gain access to
the fiber
the distance becomes relatively
immaterial. So if you think that these
physicists are working on this and all
all these
>> no I didn't say that I think okay I'm
saying if anybody
>> is working on this
>> either two one of two things is
happening either we are become the
stupidest nation on earth destroying our
own ability to do physics we gave away
the store we're morons that's possible
or we're doing it in private
>> and you feel like it's possible to hide
all this from the general public
>> well my point is you're not going to
hide it they no no the same way they did
it before would be spoiled by
satellites.
Right? Now, if you tried to do Los
Alamos, you couldn't do it because of
the satellites,
>> right?
>> So, it has to be hidden in plain sight.
It has to look like something that it
isn't.
So, if you asked me, let's imagine you
asked me a different question. Let's
imagine you asked me, Eric, nobody's
willing to give you money. Nobody's
willing to employ you. Nobody's willing
to have you speak at their seminar,
despite the fact that you have complete
blue chip credibility.
How would you how would you organize a
secret team to get control of our
adversaries, the world, and the ability
to traverse the cosmos? I sure sure as
[ __ ] wouldn't build a chemical rocket
company. It's dumb. But I do it as
cover.
And I sure as [ __ ] wouldn't do things in
an open university department. Here's
what I'd do. I'd build an organization
that could rationalize billions passing
through it with almost no footprint.
Because what I really need is
whiteboards and coffee and smart people
and a secure campus and a story. That's
all I need.
God, wouldn't you love to have access to
what they're doing?
>> No, cuz I'm going to do it myself.
>> How you going to do that? because I know
I know really smart people. Joe,
>> don't you need like insane amounts of
money in a laboratory somewhere?
>> You know, it's funny like Sam Alman is
racing, Daario Amadai is racing Elon
Musk for super intelligence. So,
I asked myself, if you could have
premium subscriptions to Grock, Gemini,
XAI,
um, sorry, uh, Grock, Gemini,
Claude,
all of them.
>> Or you could have Edward Frankle's home
phone number. Which would you choose?
I'd choose Edle's home phone number.
So, I get to call Edle whenever I want
to.
That's smart.
Look, there there are people that you
don't even know about
who are just terrifyingly smart who
Allow me to assemble that team. That's
what you know.
>> Is that literally what you're trying to
do?
>> Oh, yeah.
>> And how are you doing it?
>> I don't know. I stayed with Ed uh for
five days in Berkeley.
I got him and uh another colleague
who's also terrifying. I'm using
Soviets, Joe. Ex-S Soviets,
>> okay?
>> Because those guys haven't haven't lost
the magic.
>> And uh you know, I had Frankle and a guy
named Misha Capranov come down
for 5 days to kick the [ __ ] out of my
theory.
It was crazy. Absolutely crazy. We're
drinking vodka at like 10:00 a.m. having
insane meals
and just working our asses off the way
we're supposed to.
>> How'd it go?
>> Amazing.
>> What do they think about your theory?
>> So far, all systems go, Joe.
Okay. So, in in other words, the story c
can we just pull up
I I just want to do this for my own
reasons. Can we pull up the lead the
pinned tweet on my Twitter profile?
Which, by the way, thank you for
retweeting.
>> No problem.
>> Yeah. Love you.
>> Love you, too. What is it? Go to it real
quick.
[snorts]
>> So, first of all, I want to show off the
header. Can we go up to the top of the
header before we do that?
Those two formulas,
the bottom one says CFJ.
C is Sean Carroll,
the middle F is uh Fields and J is Roman
JKE, a professor at MIT.
Sean Carol's second most um cited paper
is has this as its action or lrangeian.
Right above that is my action or
lrangeian.
And what you see all those zeros is
things that Sean Carroll doesn't know
how to handle. And that thing where you
see a P, you see star parenthesis P on
the bottom line and at the botto second
from the bottom
>> is Shaun's relativity violating uh hack.
Sean Carroll did not disclose
that geometric unity is a direct
competitor to his most cited work. So
now if we can roll the clip, it'll make
more sense as to what's going on.
And let's blow that thing up.
>> This portrayal of the situation uh is
nearly constant for reasons that
completely elude me.
>> Sean, the good news is I have read
Eric's paper. Here it is. I actually
have it here. Right here. First thing
you got to do is make sure that your
theory makes contact with modern physics
as it is understood. If you have a new
paper out, business are going to look at
it. They're going to look for, you know,
where's Lrangeian?
[music]
>> So, this is for people that are just
listening. This is showing that you have
Lrangeians in your these
>> showing Sean Carol lying,
>> right?
>> Did you The interactions are in there as
well, but you call Did you call him out
on this on the show?
>> I couldn't believe that he'd do this.
>> So, you didn't say anything? stunned
>> proton stability that's in there as
well. So essentially he's lying to make
it seem like your theory doesn't work
when you have all the things he's saying
your theory doesn't have
>> one of two lies. We don't know which
lie.
>> Okay.
>> There's a lie that says
uh I read your paper.
>> So
>> I'm willing to entertain the fact that
he's lying that he read my paper.
>> Okay. And I'm willing to entertain the
fact that he's lying that he read my
paper and he's going to deny that these
things are in there. But he's what I
don't know which lie he's telling,
>> right? One of them is a lie.
>> Either he lied saying he read your paper
or he lied saying he definitely lied
saying those things aren't in there
because he did say those things aren't
in there. That's a lie.
>> Right. He just says there's none of
that. None of that. None of them.
>> Okay. So my claim is
>> How can you respond like right there?
>> Joe, what am I just Let's just One
second.
I'm in a world that makes absolutely no
sense and I don't want to disappear. I'm
not suicidal.
I have been the major competitor of
string theory for 42 years. I'm not a
podcaster. I'm not a guest. I'm not an
entertainer.
What I really do for a living,
I'm not paid to do.
>> Okay, I understand that. But when he's
saying
>> I don't know what to do.
>> You just didn't know what to do in the
morning.
>> I mean, what do I want? Do I want a
legal battle?
>> Right.
>> I've got a defense contractor. I'm one
of the world's largest companies is a
defense contractor which is has a
campaign against me for reasons I don't
understand. I just have no clue
why anyone would say you don't have a
lrangeian.
>> And so he's attached to a defense
contract.
>> No, no, no. There's a there's a
by virtue of the fact that the
conspiracy against me and I I I
literally mean technically a conspiracy
is organized through these Discord
servers and
there's an engineer at Google who for
example can't get a paper against me
that lies about what it is that I'm up
to um published on the archive which is
where physicists share their stuff. So
the the engineer will say how how about
you do a talk at Google Sabina
Hassenfelder and Sabina Hassenfelder
will come to Google
and she'll be given her thing if if he
will be allowed to post an anti-Eric
screed or paper whatever you want to
call it against me. So what I'm trying
to say is I'm acting as Jack Raper in
some way.
>> Okay.
>> I'm doing stuff and saying stuff like
Epstein is an is a construct.
>> Mhm.
>> Well, okay. Now you can say that, but
you couldn't say that when I started
saying it. You can't say Ed Whitten is
driving theoretical physics off of a
cliff. You can't say, you know, the
reason that uh
we have the particles that we do has a
that there's a 10-dimensional fiber in a
fiber bundle above spacetime that isn't
acknowledged. For some reason, the
things that we're talking about on this
show are dangerous.
We're having dangerous conversations,
Joe. That's what JRE does.
And sometimes you you go all the way and
sometimes you puss out. But like this is
a dangerous place because they can't
tell you what to do. And that's why they
put you in like a different color on the
screen during CO because you went
against the narrative.
The narrative was go get vaccinated.
The narrative was if you think that CO
came from anything other than a wet
market, you're a racist. Every time
you've gone up against the narrative,
they try to destroy you.
You're still here, but you've been badly
badly bruised at various times.
You are a danger to the narrative as I
am a danger to the narrative. That's one
of the reasons why this is like I don't
know what is this, my eighth, sixth,
some large number of appearances. We are
scary to the narrative and the narrative
can no longer be held together.
>> I want to bring you back to the
technology that's involved.
So when we're talking about
this program that may or may not exist,
>> right?
>> And when we're talking about
UAPs, Yeah.
>> for lack of a better term.
>> Do you think that these are connected?
And do you think that
>> Yes.
>> So one one of the things that I've
suspected and many I'm not the only one,
many people suspected this. It's very
odd that a lot of these sightings that
these Air Force pilots and Navy pilots
that they find, they're over and near
military bases.
>> That's right.
>> Which is where you would practice or
restricted airspace, which is where
you'd use your stuff. And when they see
these things and they have these
experiences with these things, the
people that they report them to don't
seem shocked.
>> Right.
>> Yeah. I mean, this is um what Ryan
Graves experienced. This is what
Commander David Fraver experienced that
they tell these people about these
things and no one is like, "What the
[ __ ] are you talking about?"
>> Right? Because they know
>> because this might be ours.
>> So, some of this is ours,
>> okay?
>> Some of this is foreign nations and some
of this is un is not understood. That's
what I believe.
>> Okay. So some of these things they're
think they're seeing is a part of some
undisclosed program.
>> I believe that for example some of this
is not craft but the ability to create
the illusion of craft.
>> Okay.
>> Some of this I believe is craft.
>> So the ability to create like a
hologram.
>> I don't know like a hologed
plasma.
>> That's right.
>> Okay. some
>> which we know they can do. We've seen
them. We we've showed videos.
>> We've seen limited versions of this.
Imagine that those things scale up.
>> Okay.
>> Okay.
If there were no aliens or craft,
I would want to create a program
if I was in the disinformation business.
I would want to create one of these
things, right? Because there's a
God-shaped hole in all of our souls and
minds.
And so aliens and spacecraft fill that
hole,
>> right?
>> So there's like God for atheists.
>> Yeah. Yeah. It's God for atheists.
So first of all, I would think that we
were incompetent if we didn't have
something that created UFO ghost
stories. Why wouldn't you use that?
I also believe that there are foreign
nations that may have leapfrogged this.
You know, clearly we saw that where we
invested in aircraft carriers and other
people invested in drones and they
realized that this was about economic
warfare. Costs too much to shoot down
cheap stuff to make.
So, we're in the process of having our
Suez moment, if you will, in Iran, if
we're not careful, where it is revealed
that our lead in aircraft carrier groups
is not what we thought it was.
So, we can get to Iran in a second if
you like, but what I believe is that
um we've been dumb.
We've been extremely stupid since the
end of the Cold War. Bill Clinton and
Dick Morris ushered in an era of
stupidity that I cannot even believe is
so antithetical to my notion of my
belonging to the smartest nation on
earth.
Um that we've just basically gutted our
smart people. The smart people don't
even know each other. Now, what is going
on with the technology and what we're
seeing?
We've lost control of some airspace.
That's what I believe is I don't know
that to be true, but I believe with very
high probability.
>> And you think that's what San Antonio is
about.
>> San Antonio?
>> No, I'm sorry. El Paso.
>> Yeah. I I I believe that El Paso is not
about cartel drones. That's true.
>> Okay. I mean, that's not to say that
there isn't a cartel drone here or
there,
>> but I don't think we shut down airspace
in El Paso to deal with cartel drones,
>> right? So, when what were the
experiences that people were were
reporting and like what like what do you
know about what happened in El Paso?
>> Well, there's what I know
which is all secondhand.
So what I know what I can say I know
firsthand is the reporting of various
things by various people but I probably
had five plus conversations about white
sands
people who don't know each other not
connected. So whoever is supposed to be
keeping white sands a secret failed.
Okay. So I believe that White Sands
has an infestation problem with stuff
that is
either not ours or is being blue team,
red teamed ours and not told to our
people.
How would you deal with the following
puzzle? So maybe we're putting our own
our own one group is putting our drones
or something in the air,
>> right?
>> And another group is being told, "How
would you deal with this problem? We we
we we've lost control of our airspace,
but something is going on in New Mexico.
>> What was the descriptions of these
drones? What does it say here? Airspace
of the center of the brief but highly
publicized incident. February 11, 2026.
FAA abruptly announced 10-day shutdown
of the airspace over El Paso
International Airport. The restriction
was lifted after just a few hours.
Pentagon anti- drone testing. The
Pentagon was testing high energy laser
counter drone technology out of the
nearby Fort Bliss military base, the
FAA, grounded commercial flights out of
an abundance of caution because of the
unannounced testing cartel drone
activity. Officials from the Trump
administration cited incursions from
Mexican drug cartel drones breaching US
airspace as the primary reason for the
defense systems that the defense defense
systems were deployed in the first
place. Lack of communication. White
House officials later noted that the FAA
administrator implemented the surprise
flight ban without notifying the
Pentagon, Department of Homeland
Security, or White House officials. That
seems crazy.
>> It's This story doesn't hang together.
>> That part doesn't hang together at all.
The FAA [clears throat]
administer implemented a flight ban
without notifying the Pentagon, the
Department of Homeland Security, or the
White House officials. That doesn't even
seem legal,
>> Joe. But I don't know.
You and I both have at least 105 IQ's.
These are like 65 IQ stories.
>> Yeah, they Well, the Mexican drone
cartel one seems like a dopey narrative,
>> but maybe there are actually Mexican
drone drones.
>> I'm sure the cartels have drones.
>> Okay, so the cartels have drones and
we're going to use the fact that new
that El Paso is close to White
>> But what did what was the reported drone
activity? Do you know anything about it?
Like what? What? Supposedly? Yeah.
>> Not going to say.
>> No. Mysterious.
>> Hardly being mysterious. I'm saying as
much as I can.
>> I understand. But here's the thing.
>> I'm joking around.
>> Okay.
>> But I mean, I'd like to know like what?
>> Right. But I'm
>> Tell me later.
>> No.
>> [ __ ]
>> No, it's not like that.
>> Look. [laughter]
Oh, [ __ ] you both.
>> Let's play that awesome music again. He
loves There's a video from the EP put
out just four days ago that says there
is a cartel attacking lots of people.
>> Well, I'm sure there's cartel drones.
>> What I'm trying to say No, no, I
definitely have drones.
>> Every single person who knows how to
keep a secret knows how to use the truth
to hide a lie.
>> Right. Of course. And [clears throat]
that's always been done.
>> So, the the thing that I'm doing is I am
I am an America. I am I am so grateful
to this country. I love my country.
I am going to maintain the ability till
my dying day to help my country and
advise my country. My country is a
[ __ ] I don't know why she's acting
this way. I don't know why she's been
stupid since 1992.
Right. But she's been acting like a
[ __ ] since the Clinton administration.
We're bad at being America. And I I
can't stand it. So, I'm going to with I
would love to tell you everything I
know. I would love to penalize people
for being
bad at their jobs,
but I'm going to retain the ability to
advise my government till my dying day.
And so, I'm not going to say what I
know.
>> Okay. It says, this is from New York
Times. Inside the debacle that led to
the closure of El Paso's airspace, FAA
citing grave risk of fatalities from a
new technology being used on the Mexican
border got caught in a stalemate with
the Pentagon which deemed the weapon
necessary.
>> Whatever.
>> Okay, who knows? [ __ ] As many
stories as you can spin, right? Throw
them all out there, right? Throw a bunch
of them.
>> Look, our press was largely set up in
World War II to go to war,
and it's been that way ever since.
And during the Walter Kronhite era and
the Eric Seides and all that kind of
stuff that nobody really remembers,
we had a measure of freedom to talk
about things and it got too much. And in
the middle of the 1970s, we had the
Church and and Pike Committee hearings
and we freaked out. We found out who we
really were. We are both the super
naive, squeaky clean state and the
baddest of the bad MFS.
We're both things. We're a hybrid.
We're extremely mchavelian. We're
extremely naive. There's no way of
stopping that being what we are.
>> So, you think that it's very possible
that there's a foreign nation that has
some sort of technology that can invade
our airspace at will. And that was what
the shutdown was. I believe that
somebody may have leapfrogged us as they
have leaprogged us in drone technology.
>> So they may have leaprogged us in some
propulsion technology.
>> I believe that there is a nation
in Asia,
>> China, which puts on amazing drone shows
and buys up our academics who aren't
being paid because we're sitting around
bitching. What have you what have you
technical people done for us? Why do you
deserve to be paid from taxpayer
dollars? And the answer is, "Oh, shut
the [ __ ] up. We We created your economy,
you stupid [ __ ]
We're the baddest of the bad. We We are
the source of your wealth and your
strength, and you come to us bitching
about your taxpayer dollars. You deserve
to lose to China, you little
I I have no words for the also the new
crop of tech billionaires who were
bitten by co
who think that
>> what do you mean by that?
>> Well, they think that Anthony Fouchy was
a scientist and so they they believed in
science before Fouchy and now they don't
believe in science.
[sighs and gasps]
>> I don't understand what you're saying.
>> Oh my god.
>> I don't I literally don't understand
what you're saying.
>> All right. Silicon Valley had a huge
about face
when they figured out that Fouchy was
full of [ __ ]
A lot of them bankrolled our
universities. They supported science.
They were Democrats. And then somehow
COVID happened. And because they had
this childlike belief in universities,
science, and the Democratic Party, they
ran to the Republican party like
children,
not understanding
that
Anthony Fouchy was not a scientist. CO
is a giant lie.
Collins and Fouchy and Ralph Bareric and
Peter Djac are menaces to the credit of
scient of science. The credit rating of
science went into the toilet with
Silicon Valley. And a new a new idea was
born which is that the engineer is
everything. The scientist is nothing.
Everything should be a for-profit not a
nonprofit.
If artificial intelligence should
replace our best people,
I mean
th this is the spell that many of our
like I I would like to think that I
count Mark Andre, Peter Teal as friends,
Sam Alman as a friend.
I don't know what happened to all of
these people.
They're just wrong and they're rich and
somehow we like our public intellectuals
became our billionaires. What does Naval
say? What does Mark say? What does Elon
say? Everybody who's talking their book
is now our our public intellectuals.
And quite honestly, they're all
brilliant,
but they're all highly motivated.
>> That's fact.
>> Yeah.
But where are our scientists? Where are
our intellectuals? Where are our people
who care more about how do I say this?
Glory
and immortality rather than private jet
travel.
You could not give get me to give up my
claim on immortality for private jet
travel.
I don't understand the fascination with
private jets.
They're cool. Mildly.
>> Well, it's not just private chats.
>> Well, what is it?
>> I think they attach
monetary gain to uh success
and above and beyond needs. So, it
becomes a way of measuring success.
They look at numbers above and beyond
everything else. My craziest brilliant
friend who's completely insane is a guy
named Michael Vasser.
And Michael Vasser had a made a point to
me as he often does which is really
dangerous. And he said, "When did the
world's smartest people stop caring
about their own game and their own
prizes and start focusing on the prizes
of the people pursuing wealth and
status?"
And he said, "Somehow when scientists
care about McLarens and Lamborghinis
that something terrible has happened."
And boy has that like a splinter in my
mind turning over. or I can't get rid of
it. He's right.
He's just right. By the way, this is a
guy who also told me that Dario Amadai
was like a really important person. I
needed to pay attention to him when I he
was just some guy that I knew. Um
Vasser's point is
the scientists stop having their own
game with their own prizes and so
they've started caring about things that
they should be completely ignoring. I
don't have a McLaren and I couldn't care
less.
I do care about immortality. I do care
about recognition. I do care about my
name being removed from things that I've
done and other people's, you know,
cherry topping going on top of it. Quite
honestly, we're a different game. We're
a different species. There's a, you
know, that that song uh one night in
Bangkok,
>> it came from a musical about chess.
And he says in the lyrics to that song,
which we don't remember, he says, uh,
I'd have, you know, something like, I
have you over, I would invite you, but
the queens we use would not excite you,
so you can go back to your massage
parlors in Bangkok. The whole point is
that the chess world doesn't care about
who got laid.
Chess world cares about the evergreen
game, the immortal game. What did
Fischer do to Spasi? What what's going
on with Magnus Carlson?
Somehow the science world stopped caring
about our own stuff.
And
we've got to make sure that the public
intellectuals are not dominated by
billionaires. As much as I love these
guys, they're my friends.
>> I think you're right.
>> Yeah. They're smart as hell. They
wouldn't have gotten to be billionaires
otherwise, but they're always talking
their book.
Always.
Look at, you know, people are like
famous libertarians and they become
surveillance people. You know, they
Bill Gates, you know, is he just buying
farmland for
>> right
>> to be he wants to make sure that we have
a steady supply of of food of something.
>> Um, we've got to stop the addiction to
billionaires as the only people we trust
because at least they're rich.
Let's end it there because I got to wrap
this up, but I appreciate you very much.
This is very good.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah, it was a good one.
>> Great seeing you.
>> Great seeing you, too. And I think
you're the last point is it should
resonate with a lot of people. It's dead
right.
>> Look forward to seeing you soon, Joe.
>> Well, maybe we'll go to another planet.
>> Love it.
>> All right. [music] Bye, everybody.
>> [music]