a demon appeared. Um, something that
looked like a monster. And I thought to
myself, okay, that's strange. It's all
in your head. It's all in your head.
This must be some kind of projection
from your subconscious. That's what this
must be. This demonic entity started
literally attacking me. Like full-on
attacking me. And I've never experienced
anything like this. It's probably a
manifestation of your subconscious, you
know? And like there's talk of this kind
of thing. It's called bruharia. It's
witchcraft in the Amazon. This couldn't
just be that this is shamanic warfare.
There there's no way, right? Like cuz
that can't be real because it's not
real. And that was my logic. It can't be
real because it's it's not real. We
don't have a scientific explanation for
what this is. I went and spoke to the
quantero. Um and his response just
changed my life forever. And he just
said,
"Dr. Simon Ruffle is a clinical
psychiatrist who walked away from the
NHS frustrated because his patients
weren't getting any better. He flew to
the Peruvian Amazon to study why an
Amazonian brew was curing conditions
that his profession couldn't touch. He
ended up running the first ever study on
psychedelics and epigenetics. He found
that Iaska may literally rewite trauma
at the genetic level and started
training as a Shapibo shaman. He now
holds both a membership of the Royal
College of Psychiatrists and an
apprenticeship under a Peruvian Iawaska
shaman attempting to marry elements from
both traditions for the absolute best
mental health outcomes. Subscribe to
uncover whether DMTLs file noise
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once.
>> Over the next 3 days, I experienced the
most crippling anxiety I've ever
experienced. It was incredible. I could
I couldn't leave my hut to speak to
people. I was a shadow of myself. My
posture had changed. I was suddenly
hunched over. I had these terrifying
nightmares, these like horrendous
nightmares. I was like, "What is
happening?" Like, "What on earth is
going on?" And then 3 days later, he
came back and he found me. And he was
like, "Okay, we're going back into
ceremony. I'm going to remove remove
this curse that you have on you
basically." And by this point, I was
terrified cuz I spent 3 days just
contemplating like
my perception of reality, contemplating
what is mental health? How could I
suddenly just have crippling anxiety
when I just did not have anything like
that before? And I went back into
ceremony. I drank the Alawaska. He sang
aos, which are these um shamanic chants
in Shapibo.
And it was incredible. I could feel
these almost like three suckers almost
like the kind of thing that you stick
your mobile phone to your car
windscreen. um uh with I could just feel
them just three of them just pop off me
and all of the the demonic things that I
was seeing in the ceremony suddenly just
completely disappeared and it was back
to these bright beautiful colors that I
always had seen with
>> I thought med school and PhDs were hard
like that's nothing compared to training
and sharpness is it completely blows it
out of the
Simon Ruffle, what is Shapibo
Curanderismo?
>> I'm so glad you asked. Um, Shabibo
Corduranderismo. So, curanderismo is a
word that can be usefully used to
describe shamanism.
You know, more or less. Shamanism as a
word actually doesn't really mean that
much. Um, it loosely kind of fits one
group of traditional healers from
Siberia, but it's almost been adopted as
this uh this word to describe anyone who
enters the world of the spirits in a
nutshell. You know, most people in the
western world understand if you say, you
know, shaman, they have an idea of what
that of what that might mean. And the
Shapibo are a particular group of people
based in the Peruvian Amazon who work
with a psychedelic brew called Iawaska.
And they are corderos or corderas. So
they are shamans. And so they use this
psychedelic brew in a ceremonial ritual.
And they they use it to heal and to
treat many of the conditions that we
treat here in the west. But they have a
very different explanation and
understanding surrounding how it works.
>> Beautiful. really well explained. Let's
walk through. I want the listener and me
to understand the most important context
in your life that led you to interacting
with the Shabiba. What What do we need
to understand about your prior life that
led you to the Peruvian rainforest?
>> It's a good question and I get asked
that a lot perhaps unsurprisingly. Um so
I'm a psychiatrist by background. um and
I was working in the NHS and for many
years I went to medical school
specialized in psychiatry. The only
reason that I went to medical school was
because I wanted to do psychiatry
because I was fascinated with everything
to do with the human mind. Fascinated by
people. I was fascinated by the theory
behind it. I was fascinated by you know
what happens when it goes wrong in
quotation marks. Like what is that? You
know what is psychosis? What is it when
people kind of lose connection with
their their sense of reality?
And it was all great and I and I got
through med school and I specialized in
psychiatry and started, you know,
working on the wards and there was only
one kind of major issue with it was
which was that the vast majority of
patients didn't actually get that much
better. And it's not a controversial
thing to say that. You know, most
psychiatrists say that quite openly. In
medicine, psychiatry has the reputation
of being the Cinderella specialty.
That's what most people refer to it as.
And that's mainly because we haven't
seen huge breakthroughs in psychiatry
for over 50 years. We use many of the
same treatments that we were using 50
years ago. We don't use uh terms like
treat um or cure. Um and we end up
treating it almost like a paliotative
specialty.
And so I was working as a disgruntled
psychiatrist in the NHS. And I was
beginning to think, okay, what am I
going to do um with the rest of my life?
Is this really everything that I spent
the last 12 years or so working towards?
And so I decided to take a bit of a
break from working in psychiatry. Um,
and by a stroke of of luck, I found
myself sitting next to somebody who was
training to be a cord or training to be
a shaman um in the Peruvian Amazon. And
he was training with this group of
people called the Shapibo.
And we were roughly the same age and
kind of equivalent grades. you don't
really have grades in ship calledismol
but you know about the same level of
training and the different kinds of
medicine and he started telling me that
he was treating conditions like
depression PTSD anxiety OCD uh and he
was using the word cure yes we cure them
you know they're treated they're
completely fine and then they go back
home and then that's the end of that and
I couldn't believe it and I thought you
know what is this guy talking about
there's there's no way there's no way
and the more that he started telling me
about it the thing that really kind of
piqued my curiosity was that he wasn't
denying that Iawaska worked in the way
that we know most psychedelics work
interacting with the uh you know the
serotonin receptor um largely causing
neuroplasticity all of these kinds of
things but he was saying to me yeah yeah
yeah I'm sure all of that stuff is
happening but actually the way that
we're treating conditions in the
Peruvian Amazon is by calling in spirits
and spirits are treating patients on
behalf of these shamans. And that's the
way that shamanism works more or less in
a very summarized version. And I I was
just thinking this I can't believe I'm
hearing this. There's no way that anyone
actually believes this, right? Like
there's that that couldn't possibly be
true. So he invited me to uh to come
down to the Peruvian Amazon um with him
to see what he was doing. I had my first
experience with Iawaska. Um this was
2015
and for 4 years I went back and forwards
to the proven Amazon just doing research
into Iawaska. I ended up doing a PhD
looking at Iwaska uh and mental health
outcomes and then after four years of
going back and forwards I actually
started training in
so training to become a shaman. So I'm
trained in western medicine research
psychology and Amazonian shamanism. And
that's the the yeah, that's where I sit
today at that kind of intersection of
those three worlds.
>> Incredible. So so well explained and
what an interesting backstory. I mean,
life really does send you in a random
direction when you're standing you're
sitting beside a shaman and you end up
in a random conversation you never would
expect.
>> Totally.
>> And for some reason you say yes and see
how deep the rabbit hole goes. Yeah.
When you say spirits, maybe it's a good
idea to give some idea of what that word
means because it's one of those things
that can be 20 different ideas,
definitions, models could pop to mind
when you say spirits. What do the
shapibbo mean when they say spirits?
>> That is actually an excellent question.
And the word spirit is absolutely loaded
with connotations with associations
within the English language. part of the
training in Shapibo,
you have to learn shapibbo so that you
can sing shapibbo in ceremony. That's um
that's the way that the ceremonies work
and there isn't a direct translation for
spirit. It's more akin to some kind of
energy, but again energy is extremely
loaded. You know, people have such kind
of like and this is of me kind of 15
years ago. If anyone said energy, I'd
roll my eyes. Unless they're physi
physicists, they be like, "What? You
don't know anything about energy? What
are you talking about?" Um, but it's
something more akin to that, some kind
of energy. Probably a closer translation
would be heirs, like the heirs of
certain entities that we can't see and
but it's a very difficult thing to
describe.
Do you want to detail your first
experience? I'd love to go through, you
know, exactly what the process is, how
they makea in the Peruvian rainforest.
We can go into what happens in the
brain. I want to know about the
ceremony, but maybe I want to start if
it's okay with you with your personal
experience and why it was so impactful
on you that it sent you on the
trajectory that you're on now.
>> Yeah, for sure. I mean, the first thing
to say is that the the first experience
I had with Iawaska,
people often say the first thing it must
have really like changed your life being
this overwhelming experience. It
actually wasn't. It actually wasn't. So
I drank Iawaska for the first time and
uh I was on a I was on a retreat. I was
drinking uh six times in two weeks every
other day which is a normal way that
western isers engage with Iawaska. You
wouldn't really do that if you were
indigenous to the population. It's a a
kind of akin to going to a western
hospital and saying, "Yeah, I'd like to
have all of the treatments I can have in
two weeks. Give me all the antibiotics.
Want a CT scan, MRI?" You know, you just
you wouldn't do that. But it's kind of
how westerners engage with Iaska. And I
uh so I went went to Peru in my first
experience. Um I had a few really
interesting things that happened in
those first two weeks. So for example,
I was shown two different versions of
myself. I was shown a version of myself
which was the version that I currently
was. um the version that had experienced
various trauma uh you know various like
negative things that happened to me as
has happened to all of us you know I'm
not talking about anything out of the
ordinary here I'm just talking about you
know being human you know and being on
this earth the are kind of things that
we all experience and I was shown how
the maladaptive coping mechanisms that I
had experienced um were influencing my
life and impacting my life mainly in a
negative way and then I was shown a
different version of myself which was
that version that wasn't dominated by
those maladaptive coping mechanisms and
who I could be if I stepped away from
those own those old patterns um those
old patterns of being and then I went
back to uh I went back to London I was
based at King's College London at the
time working as just a mainstream
psychiatrist um and I started conducting
research into the effects of Iawaska
initially on personality then started
looking at common mental health
conditions. Then conducted the first
ever study uh looking at Iawaska on
epigenetic change and we'll go into that
in in a bit more detail a bit later. And
that formed the backbone of my PhD.
Um, and the more that I was going back
and forward into the Amazon rainforest,
I was having quite an interesting
experience of these dialogues between
the two worlds and I would so I would be
in the Amazon rainforest and the Cordero
who I later started apprenticing under,
Don Rono Lopez, um, would say things to
me like, "Simon, there are these
entities, there are these spirits that
are trying to communicate with you in
ceremony. You need to start listening
rather than just ignoring them." And I
would respond by saying, "Well,
actually, Don Rono, I think you're
fine." So, the brain is an expert in
predicting things and we see faces quite
a lot. So, that's why I keep seeing
these faces, you know, in ceremonies
because we're designed to do this as
humans. Um, and so I have, you know, a
neuroscientific explanation as to as to
why this is happening. Thank you very
much. And he would just laugh at me. He
would just like see you and maybe and
what he would literally say is maybe
you're just ignoring what's happening
right in front of your face. And I was
kind of the uh yeah
for the Shapibo community I was the the
scientist who wouldn't listen. And then
I would go back to King's College London
and I would be speaking to you know my
psychiatric colleagues and I would say
do you think there's any chance that
what they're talking about in the jungle
could have some kind of validity? you
know, people are talking about these
spirits and entities and we just say
there's no way. We don't have anything
that could explain that other really
than, you know, psychosis, you know,
delusional beliefs. And uh and my
psychiatric colleagues would look at me
and say, "Simon, I think you're spending
too much time in the jungle, you know,
and too much time just drinking in the
jungle." I was like, "Okay, in both of
these situations, I'm kind of the the
odd one out here." Um, and then after
after four years of going back and
forward to the jungle, I uh I had an
experience which I can talk about if you
if you want to. It's it's quite gnarly.
Uh, which completely shattered my
perception of reality. And I ended up
training in people as well. Um, and
honestly, it was the best thing I've
ever done. The hardest thing I've ever
done. I thought med school and PhDs were
hard. Like that's nothing compared to
training and sharpism. is it completely
blows it out of the water.
>> Incredible. So much so much to so many
questions there. I'm I'm curious before
we dive into the experience, was
anything different on the leadup to that
to that to that particular trip that had
such a different reaction to the others?
Was do did you feel like this one was
going to be special? Was there anything
different that was happening on the
leadup? Did you, you know, was there
just anything that you could have
predicted that this was going to be the
one that was going to obliterate
everything and change how I think about
it, or was it just you thought this was
going to be like all the other ones? You
didn't make any predictions ahead of
time?
>> Mhm. Yeah. I I thought this was going to
be exactly the same as every other
ceremony I'd had. And you know, by this
point, I drank many times. I've been
going back and forward to the jungle for
four years. So, you know, I was I drunk
it about 80 times, I think, you know, at
this point. And um so I wasn't new like
I wasn't new to this you know I was kind
of experienced in what to expect and but
um yeah so basically what happened is I
I was in my my room in my hut and I I
remember actually I was reading a paper
on DMT on my laptop like before going
into the ceremony and that meant that I
was late for the ceremony and they
usually do this smoke protection before
you come into ceremony it's this
particular type of plant um used in in
shanic traditions called mapacho. And I
remember thinking I'm going to miss that
protection, but you know, it was just
smoke, right? Like
surely it can't matter that much. And
then I got to the ceremony, went into
the ceremony, drank a cup of Iaska, and
I went and I sat down on my mat like I
did, you know, before um the ceremony
started, like 80 times before. And this
time was different. And what happened
was
seemingly out of nowhere, as soon as I
started to experience the kind of the
subjective effects of Iawaska,
a for a better sense of the word, a
demon appeared. Um, something that
looked like a monster. Um, and I thought
to myself, okay, that's strange. It's
all in your head. It's all in your head.
You know, this is like, you're fine. You
can deal with this. This must be some
kind of um projection from your
subconscious. That's what this must be.
And this this demonic entity started
literally attacking me. Like full-on
attacking me. And I've never experienced
anything like this. At this point, I've
actually experienced this quite a lot
now, but at that point, I'd never
experienced anything like it. And it was
bringing up all of these insecurities.
It was taunting me. It was going into
the the depths of my childhood and my
being and dredging up all of these
things about myself, showing them to me
and just annihilating me. And it I ended
up falling off my mat. I fell onto the
floor of the maloa, which is the
ceremonial space, the structure that you
drink in in the Shapibo tradition. Uh I
could barely breathe. I was really
struggling to breathe. Um I had Iaska
pouring out of my mouth. Um, and I was
under my breath trying to scream like,
"Help me." Like, "Help me." But nobody
could could hear uh what I was saying,
so I could barely get anything out. And
during that experience, it's it's so
hard to describe what that was like, but
it was so real and so different from
anything else that I'd experienced that
in that moment, I was I was convinced
that was something different, that that
was something else.
And I was there conducting research, the
epigenetic study um with a psychologist,
you know, one of my best mates. And
after the ceremony, um finally in the
ceremony, somebody noticed, the cordero
noticed, they came over, they sorted me
out and kind of got me sitting back up
again. And the ceremony finished and I
went and I spoke to my colleague who's a
psychologist and I told him what had
happened and I said look I know this
sounds completely bizarre but I'm I'm
almost certain that I just I just got
attacked. I just got attacked. I just
have no idea what that was. Like
what on earth? And he said what I would
have said 4 hours earlier which was ah
yeah don't worry about it. It's probably
a manifestation of your subconscious you
know and like there's talk of this kind
of thing. It's called bruharia. There's
witchcraft in the Amazon.
Perhaps it was just that you heard
someone say that and it came up. It's a
fear of yours. So, it came to the
surface. And I was just saying, "This is
I I get it. I I get it. Logically, I get
this. I understand what you're saying,
but I I swear this was something
different."
And then, so I I went and spoke to the
quantero
um and his response just changed my life
forever. and he just said, "Ah, yep,
yep, yep. Really sorry about that. You
you did get attacked. So, I was trying
to fight that all all night. What
happened is I'm in a shamanic battle.
I'm in a fuse with another cord and
because you've been coming back here for
4 years, he thinks that you're my
apprentice. Um, so when he couldn't get
to me, he just attacked you. Um, try not
to worry about it. So, sorry. I'll sort
this out over the next few days. You
just got caught in this crossfire
basically." And so I was I was just left
thinking what like what on earth is
happening? My perspective of reality was
being shattered like at that moment and
I was trying to explain it through my
psychiatric training, you know, through
my training and my PhD. You know, there
must be a way of understanding this.
This couldn't just be that this is
shamanic warfare. There's no way, right?
Like cuz that can't be real because it's
not real. And that was my logic. It
can't be real because it's it's not
real. We don't have a scientific
explanation for what this is. And so
over the next 3 days, cuz he was going
to be um back back in the village to um
to help me in 3 days time, I experienced
the most crippling anxiety I've ever
experienced. It was incredible. I could
I couldn't leave my hut to speak to
people. I was a shadow of myself. my the
way that I held myself, my posture had
changed. I was suddenly hunched over.
Um, and when I went to sleep, I had
these terrifying nightmares, these like
horrendous nightmares. And I was like,
what is happening? Like, what on earth
is going on?
And then 3 days later, he came back and
he found me. Um, and he was like, "Okay,
we're going back into ceremony. I'm
going to remove remove this curse that
you have on you, basically."
And by this point, I was terrified
because I spent three days just
contemplating like
my perception of reality, contemplating
what is mental health. How could I
suddenly just have crippling anxiety
when I just did not have anything like
that before? And I went back into
ceremony. I drank the Iawaska and he
came up and he sang aos, which are these
um shamanic chants in shapibbo.
And it was incredible. I could feel
these almost like three suckers almost
like the kind of thing that you stick
your mobile phone to your car windscreen
um uh with. I could just feel them just
three of them just pop off me and all of
the the demonic things that I was seeing
in the ceremony suddenly just completely
disappeared and it was back to these
bright beautiful colors that I always
had seen with skin. And so the the
ceremony finished and so I went up to
the cordo was just oh my god I thank you
so much like thank you so much and he
just it's nothing it's nothing it's
nothing that's just like a tiny tiny
curse like it's so easy so easy
curse
>> yeah just a tiny tiny curse like
honestly like don't worry about it it's
like nothing and I was just I was so
blown away I was like what
earth like there's no way that that
could be real like how like what is
real. And at this point I was conducting
yeah the first ever study looking at um
any psychedelic and epigenetics which is
obviously like genetics is like that's
like hardcore science but during that
study I actually started training in
shamanism and two weeks afterwards I was
like I have to know I have to know what
this is I have to understand what that
is and I genuinely feel that as a
scientist you can't experience something
like that a potential like at least in
my mind like blind spot in science and
not begin to investigate it further. Of
course, with respect, you know, doing it
ethically. And so I asked for permission
to start training with this cordo. And
he said yes. And so, ironically, I did
become his apprentice after that other
cordo,
what I now believe, you know, attacked
me. And then I went back to to the UK
again, went back to King's College
London to continue working as a
mainstream psychiatrist with this new
idea, this new perception of what mental
health and to be honest, reality could
be. Uh, and that was, you know, 11 years
ago. uh and I've spent the rest of uh my
time, the rest of my career trying to
marry those two worlds of western
science and indigenous science, finding
out where they work together and where
they don't work together uh and trying
to come to a more coherent understanding
of the nature of reality and the nature
of mental health as well.
>> Wow, man. Holy [ __ ]
Thank you. Thank you for sharing that
first off because I know that's a
vulnerable experience and and so intense
and you know I've had some negative
experiences on psychedelics and I know
that every time I really open up about
it it's it's vulnerable and it's
difficult. So thank you for sharing
that. I mean that's completely insane. I
mean that is is so crazy.
>> Yeah. I have so many questions and it's
interesting because I clearly have my
science hat and the reason I wanted to
talk to you is because I wanted to
really understand where that spiritual
hat comes into the equation like how
does that add to the science how do
those pictures come together and I know
this is a very big question so we can
attack we can kind of tackle it in parts
if you like but now a decade on from
that experience how do you think about
how western psychedelic movement and the
current, you know, psychedelic
renaissance that we're on at the moment
where things are are freeing up a little
bit. There's more research being done.
There's there's more scientists being
funded, which is great. Obviously, Trump
had that executive order that is
hopefully going to have an effect on
psychedelic research and open things up
a little bit.
What can that perspective and that
movement learn from the centuries old
practice of shamanism in the rainforest?
And again, hell of a question. So sort
of tackle that from any angle you want
to start, but I'm curious, you know, a
decade on like what have you learned
about how those perspectives can work
together?
>> Yeah, I mean it's a big question for
sure. Um and there are many there are
many things there are many ways um that
people try to marry these worlds.
Obviously, there are huge ethical
implications uh surrounding um the use
of psychedelics and potentially uh you
know extracting them from indigenous
communities. But the thing that that I'm
most interested in um is safety and
efficacy um with the use of
psychedelics. And so I'm a clinician
like by backgrounds like first and
foremost I'm a clinician
and
but I don't work in clinical psychiatry
anymore and I have big concerns about
the so-called psychedelic renaissance
and that's largely due to issues with
safety and efficacy. So let me explain
this with uh with some anecdotes. So
when I've been speaking to um the
cordenderos that I apprentice with in
the Amazon rainforest and I've been
telling them about the clinical trials
that we've been doing here in the
western world the response is always
quite interesting. So initially most of
them have said to me ah you know that's
fantastic that's fantastic that you know
quite often the indigenous peoples refer
to us as little brother they're big
brother we're little brother because
we're kind of naive and stupid which
again is ironic because our narrative
quite often at least throughout history
has been the other way around
>> right
>> um so they often say okay that's great
that little brother is so interested in
in our medicines in psychedelic
medicines and also our own medicines
like psilocybin which you know grow in
Europe
And then they say, "So, how are you
using it? How are you doing it? Who who
do you have who's who's trained in
shamanism to work with energy? Who do
you have who's there to remove a demon
that's is stuck to these things stuck to
these people? What protection are you
putting up to protect the people that
are giving the psychedelics?" And I just
say, "Well, you know, we don't really
kind of think in terms like that. We
don't really, you know, have words and
language to describe those things. We
normally have a psychiatrist and a
psychologist um in a dosing room. Um to
be honest, you're lucky if you get that
now. Actually, it's moving further and
further away from from having that kind
of setup in the diet. Um yeah, and so we
we talk to the patient, you know, we
talk to them before and after they take
psychedelics usually. And then the
coordinator will say, "Yes, yes, yes,
yes, I get that. But but what do you do
if somebody needs an exorcism?" Well,
you know, I mean, we don't really think
of it in in terms of of exorcism. you
can't really kind of like bring that
language into, you know, randomized
control trials.
>> And their response has been, well,
that's just incredibly dangerous. I
can't believe you would do that. That's
so dangerous. You're literally opening
up the participant. They refer to it as
the energetic body. You're opening up
the participant's energetic body. And
anything can come in. Anything can come
in. If you're doing it in a hospital,
that's probably the worst place that you
could be doing it. And what about the
the practitioner? What about the the
therapist? You're setting up like an
energetic highway between the
participant and the therapist. They're
going to get covered in, you know, bad
energy from these participants. That's
so dangerous. I can't believe you would
do that. You need to change the way that
you're doing it because it's extremely
unethical to approach it in that way.
And then I have very similar
conversations but the complete opposite
with people from a western scientific
background where you know when I work
with other researchers fortunately now
more and more people are getting more
open to this you know kind of
observational research in the Amsterdam
rainforest but especially when I was
beginning people would say like some of
my professors even would say wait so how
far away is this um the Iaska retreat
center from the nearest hospital? I
said, "Well, it's one day by boat."
Like, "Right." Okay. And one day by
boat. Yeah. By by canoe. Like,
>> what an answer. Oh my god.
>> I know. Yeah. One day by boat. Yeah. It
depends on the rain. And you're like,
"All right. Okay.
>> Depends on the crocodile feel."
>> Exact. Exactly.
>> Yeah. And then, oh, and do you have any
medical professionals there? I mean like
well you know I'm there but you know
when I'm not there then no there there's
no one there and they say the exact same
thing. They say oh my god that's so
unethical that's so dangerous. No it
absolutely needs to be in hospital. And
so it's just this this clash of these
different paradigms. But I do think that
there is a way that we can work together
and I'm pleased to say that the
beginnings of that is starting now.
There are the beginnings of traditional
healers, traditional shamans if you
will, working with scientists and
psychologists to try and figure out the
most effective way to work with
psychedelics. But it's extremely
difficult for a number of reasons. Of
course, these are two completely
different paradigms that in most
people's eyes just clash and they don't
work together. Um, but also because of
historical ethical reasons. you know,
the science has an awful track history
when it comes to working with indigenous
peoples. And so, quite understandably,
they kind of they're thinking, well,
what's in it for us? How do we know
they're not going to just extract all of
our medicines again? How do we know that
they're not just going to steal our
ideas and use it to make profit? So,
it's it takes a lot of time. It takes
building and weaving these relationships
between these two worlds.
>> Yes. If you want to truly understand the
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inside the community. Do you have an
example of maybe something that if you
said to yourself 11 years ago, you would
be very dismissive of the some spiritual
or shamanistic idea that you believe now
where you know past you would have said
that's ridiculous. You know that that's
that's not science. Something where
you've really changed your tone from
being very scienceheavy to okay maybe
there is a spiritualism shamanistic side
to this. You know, you mentioned at the
start during your bad experience, the
demon experience that you missed the
protection smoke, right? You know, you
highlighted that as an important point
and that would be maybe a point where
the the science hash is saying, well,
come on, that's, you know, there's
nothing to that,
>> but then, you know, is that a
perspective that you've shifted on? You
know, I'm curious like really how your
mindset has changed on this over over
your time and especially going through
the apprenticeship in the shamanism and
everything. Like do you have a really
good example for people on on something
you've changed your mind on?
>> I mean there are there are so many there
are so many examples. I mean I think one
one obvious one would be a shift more
towards an animistic view of the world.
>> Okay. So
a lot of shamanism is based on the
worldview of animism. And animism is the
idea that everything has a spirit.
Everything has consciousness like if you
will that that's one way of of
explaining it. And that means that when
you engage with pretty much anything um
you engage with it uh in uh in a
different way. So let me give you an
example in terms of Iawaska. So if you
believe that iawaska and your perception
is that iawaska is in some way conscious
then when you when you drink Iawaska
you're no longer thinking ah yeah there
there's just DMT binding to my serotonin
receptors my oxidase inhibitors
preventing it breakdown you know within
within the stomach etc etc etc you're
now thinking okay this is this is a
spirit and I treat it in the way that I
would treat any kind of relationship I
want to get to know this spirit. I want
to get to know this this being and form
a relationship with them. And so it
means that when so for me when I conduct
research, I'm no longer conducting
research on Iawaska as it were. I'm
trying to conduct research with Iawaska
almost as a a co-ressearcher in that
process. And that's something that I've
been learning with the indigenous
corderos and that I work with. And it's
something that um that that really
asks you to change the way that you
approach research. Um which is where the
fun really starts.
And what how does that change the trip
itself? How that that sort of shift in
psychological relationship with the
substance? How does that manifest
experientially once you take the IASA?
>> I mean for me personally is through
communication. Through communication and
intention. So you're no longer there
kind of talking to yourself or watching
your subconscious
material kind of manifest in some way in
front of your eyes, but instead you're
you're asking things. You're speaking.
you're in dialogue. It's uh it's an
alive open conversation. Um and you have
to be willing to hear yes and you have
to be willing to hear no. It's quite
difficult to describe. It's something
akin to prayer. Again, prayer is an
extremely loaded word. Um but I see
similarities between the way that people
engage with, you know, Jesus Christ or,
you know, or God. this kind of a
relationship where you where you're in
dialogue almost in constant dialogue but
it's just that now what you're in
dialogue with or who you're in dialogue
with uh is actually the subject um of
what you're researching and so you start
asking questions to Iasker as well
I've had a bunch of really fascinating
guests and conversations now with
different with people have different
perspectives on separating fact and
fiction during a psychedelic trip. Like
what's a hallucination? What's real?
What the hell does real even mean?
>> So you ask Robin Carheart Harris, you
know, I know you've you've collaborated
with in the past, one of the leading
psychedelic researchers in the world,
but by by credential, and I just think
he's just a great speaker and scientist
overall.
>> And he's like, you know, these are
hallucinations. When people see
entities, what they're sort of seeing is
some sort of deep union archetype that
is like a shared culture of our
subconscious.
>> And I'm like, eh, not totally satisfied
with that answer, to be honest. I think
he's I think he's incredible. I I think
every other answer he gave in that my
conversation I was very satisfied with.
That one I didn't buy. And then you
speak to Andrew Galammore who's done a
bunch of research on DMT specifically
and DMT entities and he's like convinced
that these entities are real, that these
worlds are real. And again, it's very
hard to define real, but he's like the
DMT maybe had some sort of ancestral
neurobiology. And when we take DMT, we
just kind of flip into this alternate
world. Cuz why on earth would we seem to
have this alternate setting that just
kind of flips in and it's just this
crazy other completely different world,
but people that experience it say it's
real? Like why would the brain have this
prediction hardware? And it does almost
seem like a setting like you're just
switching it into that mode. And why
would so many people have this shared
hallucinations? Why would people see the
same thing and have such similar reports
of what they see if this psychedelic
noise hypothesis was brought to his end?
You know, if psychedelics is just
incorporating noise into the brain
prediction system, what then you
wouldn't really get that much shared
trip reports, would you? Or maybe, at
least in my mind, you wouldn't expect to
see so much of the same stuff. I think
maybe culture and shared culture is a
partial explanation there, but I just
don't think it goes the whole way. So,
how do you think about this getting both
the western perspective, both the
shamanistic perspective? Like, how do
you separate fact from fiction in a
hallucination in an experience? Like,
you must have a bunch of thoughts on
this.
>> Yeah, totally. I mean, so it's
interesting. So, one of the the first
things that you have to learn when
you're training in shamanism is at least
in shapibbo um is how to differentiate
what is you and what is external. And
they put a they put a distinction on
that. They say, you know, it's very
different because it's it's very easy
and you see this I see this so much with
people drinking Iaska. You know, the
Iaska told me to do this or the
mushrooms told me to do this and half
the time it's just something that that
the person clearly wants to do. So for
example, Iaska told me to buy a Tesla.
It's like really like that. Do you think
that that could could not just be like
your own like like desires kind of
coming into into the forefront?
>> You see it all the time and is, you
know, and some of the time, you know,
it's it's quite funny. Other times it
can be extremely serious and it can be
ego inflation and all of these serious
things. But the Shapibo put a huge
emphasis on how you distinguish, you
know, what is Iaskca and what is, you
know, your own internal projection. So
that's one of the first things and
there's really no way to tell someone
how to do that. You have to experience
it for yourself. You can look
objectively and be like, okay, if I
telling me to buy a Tesla, like it's far
more likely that that's going to be from
my own mind than it's going to be from,
you know, the spirit of Iaska. Um but
it's really something that you you kind
of get used to um experiencing when it
seems to be or when it's from an
external source. Uh so that's that's one
of my thoughts in terms of the the
reality, you know, of these these
worlds. I think reality is a really
that's like a tricky word and that's
something that I would try and stay away
from. Um I think you know the way that
Andrew thinks about these things from
what I understand is more akin actually
to the way that indigenous communities
um describe these things which is that
you know entities beings spirits
whatever you want to call them. They're
not just kind of you know here just you
know in the room with us necessarily
where you can say they're they're real
or unreal. The Shapibo describe them
literally existing within us, existing
within our consciousness. And you can
access them through Iawaska, through
states of consciousness, through dreams,
through imagination. And that seems to
be a pretty uniform across shanic
traditions uh across the world and
actually throughout the whole of time,
which is quite um which is quite
reassuring from the kind of from our
understanding. And so those things, you
know, are they real? Yes. Are they in
our head? Yes. You know, is it all
consciousness? Yes. You know, is there
does it matter whether we perceive them
to be in our heads or we perceive them
to be, you know, kind of separate? I
think we can get tangled in that and we
can get stuck in that. So, my
understanding of it is that yes, it is
all in our head, but that doesn't make
it any less real.
>> Yes. So, how does that maybe provide a
framework for thinking about your demon
devil experience? Like, like how do how
do you how do you then contextualize
that experience in in what you just said
there?
>> Mhm. I mean, so my perception of that
experience is that somebody sent some
negative energy to me which didn't exist
outside of my consciousness. Um but it
was external to me. Uh and so when I was
experiencing
um that attack as I believe it to be
that was that was 100% real and it
wasn't me. It wasn't my subconscious
that was creating that. But I was
experiencing it within my own
consciousness because somebody had sent
that into my consciousness. Does that
make sense?
>> No. But of course it
I mean I mean the words you it makes I
mean of course not in a way. You know
what I mean? Like I but also I know what
you mean and yes but also of course no
because I you know I think it would be
one of those things that I would have to
have experienced and have to go through
for me to be able to even remotely say
yes. And then even if I was saying yes I
still wouldn't know if that's if that's
what happened to you. So does this this
sort of does play into sort of a
idealist pansychism idea. So like there
is some sense that that people can
transfer
consciousness between entities through
say non-physical mediums that we would
usually think about like obviously I can
you know transfer something to you by
speech you know there's pure mechanistic
neuroscience materialist explanations
for that but you would say that what
happened there was sort of a
non-material non-physical transfer of
consciousness. Yes, absolutely. That's
that's the way that I think of it now.
And interesting that you bring up
pansychism because I think that
pansychism is actually
another one of the best explanations
that we have for these kinds of things,
these kinds of experiences. And it's
it's interesting because
there one of the issues that I find in
trying to bridge the gap between western
science and indigenous science is that
we don't have the frameworks in western
science to be able to understand what
indigenous peoples are talking about. A
lot of the time we don't have the
language to be able to describe it. But
I think the metaphysics is one of the
the closest things that we have that can
help us to understand these concepts.
And pansychism I think is pretty similar
to what the Shapibo believe. But again,
I'm even reluctant to say what the
Shapibo believe because it's not is not
a belief system. When you when you're
living with the Shapibo, um this stuff
is real. It doesn't matter whether you
believe it or not. this is how they
experience the world and this is to say
you don't believe in it is just that's
that's insanity that's ludicrous it's
almost like being in the western world
and say yeah I don't really believe in
gravity I don't really believe in the
atom it's like but this is that's just
how we experience the world it's not
it's not a case of whether you believe
or or don't believe in it
>> yes and do you think there is a possible
scientific explanation for what you just
head and and like I'm and when I say
scientific I don't mean materialist or
physicalist you know I mean like a
science that we haven't discovered yet
that we don't understand that is maybe
even looks quite different to the
science quote unquote that we have now
cuz I know people that are trying to
tackle pansychism from a rigorous angle
very smart philosophers that are looking
at these these metaphysical positions
and saying maybe they are actually a
better way to think about or to explain
what we experience every today because
clearly physicalism and materialism are
are extremely limited and not the whole
picture. I I believe that now as well. I
went into I started episode one of the
podcast pretty diehard materialism
coming from a neuroscience background
and and now I learned the label
biocychist which is sort of what I
identify at the moment that I think all
biological life has consciousness
>> um has some form of experience has has
an experience of what it is like to be
that thing
>> in some min minuscule amount
I've lost my train of thought now but
that
>> it's all right I'll I'll help you out I
I think uh in answer to the first part
of your question, I think that there
will be a scientific explanation for
everything. Yeah. For everything that
that we uh that we experience.
>> And I ultimately think that science and
shamanism are looking at the same thing.
And I think that but we're just quite
we're looking at different perspectives.
We're coming at a different angle from
it. And I do feel that if we get there
in terms of you know humanity eventually
we will come to the point where we have
an explanation for these things that
people experience. So for example kind
of like what Andrew Gallamore refers to
kind of entities existing in these these
different dimensions. I think that there
will be scientific explanations saying
ah yes and we now know that that
dimension is you know mathematically it
is here and that's something from that
dimension. I do think that that will
eventually happen. Um, but at the
moment, obviously because those two
disciplines are so far apart, it they
both look ludicrous to each other. Like
they both look like insanity to each
other.
>> Yes. Incredibly cool. I'm so excited to
see what that looks like. And that's why
I want to have these conversations
because I feel like doing some
communication and media and distribution
of these ideas will only hopefully help
them come together. You know, I don't
think people will listen to this or of
course there's some people that will
listen to this and say these are
ridiculous. These are completely
separate. But I think more people than
not from the kinds of conversations that
I've been having are very open to kind
of anything. Honestly, I think people
are sort of having a bit of a an
existential materialism crisis and
realizing that it just doesn't it
doesn't go the whole way and science
can't explain everything at the moment
and the answer is is somewhat mysterious
and up there and out of reach but but
possibly, you know, impossible to
achieve. I'm really curious to go into
Iawaska trip reports because again I I
spoke to Andrew Galammore a lot about
DMT trip reports and I'm curious when
you when you do trip reports with these
people that have done Iaska retreats do
they experience a lot of similarities in
what they see and what they experience?
Do they use the same kind of words, the
same kind of phrases, the same emotions,
the same mental imagery, sensory
awareness? like what commonalities exist
in Iawaska experiences?
>> Yeah, I mean they they definitely do. Um
I mean there are various um images that
people quite often see in Iawaska which
is interesting. So for example, snakes
and anacondas is something that quite
often comes up. Now whether or not
that's you just may you just
>> maybe it's not for you.
>> It's first thing you said that make me
not want to do this. everything. Even
the demon, I'm like, I'll fight the de.
Although the demon for me probably is
just a giant snake. That probably is
what it is for me. Sorry, can you please
continue? No, no, you're good. You're
good. So, there are these kind of these
um these symbols that come up time and
time again. But it's interesting because
these are these are in the in the
literature of various different ISAC
using communities um describe you know
the importance of seeing the anaconda
and many people in the kind of the
studies that we've been running describe
seeing this anaconda. Now whether or not
that's because they've done some reading
beforehand, you know, they've watched a
TV program. Snakes are quite often
associated with Iawaska, I'm not sure,
but there there are those there are
those similarities. Um,
I mean there are similarities in the the
way that people um experience the
uh the Iawaska ceremony as well. Most of
my research at the moment
>> is looking at military veterans
suffering from PTSD and we um send them
to the Amazon rainforest and they drink
Iawaska over two weeks and we look at
them in terms of um psychometrics,
qualitative interviews, EEG,
epigenetics, gut microbiome, cognitive
tasks as a a really kind of multimodal
um study. And what we find quite often
with these military veterans is that
there's the reexperiencing
um of some kind of trauma. So quite
interestingly with these military vets,
we've looked at um just over 80 now with
two years into a five-year study with
these veterans. And we or I expected
most of the veterans to go back to their
their trauma that brought them to the
retreat which is usually fighting in
Afghanistan or Iraq. And sometimes they
did, sometimes they did go there, but
interestingly where most of them went to
was some kind of trauma that happened
beneath the age of four. Um, usually
something to do with the father. And
then they saw how it's interesting how
it was always to do with the father or
almost always. And but then they saw how
yeah how that experience led them to you
know maybe not do so well at school you
know maybe get into some trouble uh you
know feel a bit lost then go into the
military have all of these other traumas
throughout teenage years or whatever go
into the military go to Iraq and then
have another trauma but actually that
was the tip of the iceberg and the index
trauma as it were was actually when they
were much younger. So you do see these
these patterns with people. I mean
obviously it's worth bearing in mind
that I'm coming from a clinical lens cuz
almost almost all of the participants
I'm working with at least at the moment
um have a diagnosis of PTSD. And so
that's the kind of the the patterns that
I see happening with with most
participants.
>> Yes. It it's very interesting to me that
the DMT trip reports seem to be very
otherworldly. You know that if you you
hear you hear them then they talk it's
real to them and it feels as real to
them as as the usual waking reality but
these are like symmetrical crystal
12fold mischievous mechanized elves you
know it's like it's very otherworldly
but then when you talk about Iaska a lot
of it seems a lot more grounded in you
know very warping and very strange but
not as alienike or more sort of you say
anaconda is sort of this this important
symbol. And yes, there's almost
certainly very important jungle context
there. You are in a jungle where I
presume there's lots of anacondas
everywhere. I just had a shiver down my
spine even just thinking about that for
a second. Um why do you do you have any
ideas on why that might be? Like what
actually is the difference between um
someone consuming their sort of maybe
more run-of-the-mill vaped or smoked DMT
that lasts 10 minutes compared to these
iawasa drinks? Pharmacologically, what's
different? And then why would one of
them produce this alien symmetrical
crystal 13-fold symmetry type experience
and then one of them not be like that?
Or do you still get do you also get that
crystal symmetry sort of um experience
on Iaska as well? You do, but it it
largely depends on the dose. And so
people describe that usually with
Iawaska, like in my own, you know,
personal experiences as well, if you
have a a whacking great dose of Iawaska
that has usually a lot of shakuna leaves
which contain DMT within it. And quite
often you get this experience which is
akin to the DMT uh experience. So I
think a lot of it is literally because
of the amount of DMT that's you know
flowing through your veins um and is is
causing that subjective effect. So let
me use this this anecdote to to maybe
try and explain that. So
I once gave um one of the cordals that I
work with um some DMT and he didn't
smoke it like he would never do that but
it was just to show him like this is
this is crystal DMT and he put it on his
mat in front of him and he drank Iaska
and he looked and felt at the energy
that was in that crystal DMT. Now he
doesn't know what crystal DMT is like.
He had no idea about what that was. We
also interestingly gave him some LSD as
well and he was looking at that and his
response to the crystal DMT was I don't
know what this is but there's way too
much energy in too small a thing um and
there's um the risk of getting confused
um as a result of that is what he says
when he looked at that crystal DMT.
Now it's interesting because
hit the nail on the head hit the nail on
the head.
>> Absolutely. And it's a very it's a very
western thing to do, isn't it? To, you
know, we try and figure out, you know,
what is the, you know, the the most
potent part of Iawaska and we find out
it's DMT, synthesize that, you know, and
then we're going to smoke that and we're
going to, you know, have the most
extreme experience that we can. And so
my feeling is that it's it's likely
because because of the intensity of the
experience that you get, because of the
dose, because of the way that it's
entering your bloodstream, and obviously
if it's going through the lungs, that's
going to be a lot more intense. or even
if it's going into your vein if you're
injecting DMT um introvenously, then
it's going to be a lot more intense. Um
and so I do feel that that's probably
why you get much more of these kind of
the typical kind of DMT um like visuals
is because of the dose and the way that
you're taking it. Could you do you know
ex or roughly speaking what the dosage
of DNT might differ between a ser like a
a ser a standard serving I don't know if
that exists of Iawaska is there a
typical dose compared to what someone a
typical dose again these things vary a
lot of like smoking it or or vaping it
or some other form because witha as you
say you have the monoamine oxidase
inhibitors which means it stays in your
system longer that's why the the trip
extends for longer. But does that mean
that the dose is it a lot less? Are you
are you speaking like 10 times less dose
or do you have any sense for what the
difference is
>> the amount of DMT that's in the blood?
>> Yeah. Binding to the ser like the actual
binding of the to the 5HT2A receptor
like you know within a first couple of
minutes of of drug onset.
>> No, I don't know I don't know that. But
if we look at the um if we look at the
the time that it takes to get the peak
experience, I mean obviously with DMT is
happening much more quickly and then the
DMT experience is much shorter and so
it's much more condensed and but I'm not
entirely sure of the the ratio of how
much more uh DMT would bind to the
serotonin receptors compared to
>> right but that's probably what you the
scientific explanation at least for the
intensity of the experience. would be
probably related to the pharmacocinetics
there like just how much faster it's
binding to the 5HD2A receptor in DMT
compared to Iawaska
>> I think so yeah I think so that would be
that would be my hypothesis
>> yes if someone is considering doing this
at home you know I'm definitely
considering doing this until you brought
up bloody stinks but I'm definitely
considering doing this like what what
what would you advise for people because
you said you're also c you're you have a
very cautionary voice on this as well
cuz you now understand the impacts and
the power of this. Um, you know, if
someone if one of the listeners is is
sitting at home and thinking, you know,
I could maybe do with this. There's
something about my life that I'm just
maybe a bit unhappy about or, you know,
maybe I've been researching psychedelics
for a while and this this IAS retreat
just sounds like I would benefit from.
It sounds like something that I could
that would send me on the right track.
You know, would you advise them to do
that? What would you what advice would
you give to those people? um you know
genuinely cuz there's definitely people
listening that they're you know they
could have it that flight to Peru
bookmarked in their Chrome tabs right
now you know like what sort of things
should they be thinking about how should
they prepare
>> yeah I mean the first thing I would say
is make sure you're actually going to be
drinking Iaska so this is this is one of
the the main things you have to watch
out for um because there are many many
things in the Amazon rainforest that can
make you trip and you know there are
many people within the Amazon rainforest
who who live in poverty and they've
noticed that there are huge quantities
of westerners who are coming over to the
Amazon rainforest uh wanting to trip.
They're wanting this this firework
display. Um and interestingly IA um for
indigenous peoples is more more of a
sematic medicine rather than a visual
medicine. And they actually say that the
visuals can it can be a distraction and
the westerners they're so you know
obsessed with the visuals and whenever
they brew when westerners brew Iaska
they make it super super strong with
lots and lots of DMT and they the
nickname for that is gringo because you
know these it's like oh it's so strong
it's gringo because these people they're
so obsessed with these visuals
and so if you do go to Peru you have to
really watch out and that you're working
with somebody who is actually an iow who
is somebody who potentially knows, you
know, how to brew Iawaska who's actually
using Iawaska. Um because there's a
million things in the jungle that can
make you drip and many of them make you
go psychotic, uh, you know, or can be
lethal. So, that's one of the first
things that you need to watch out for.
Uh, making sure that you're drinking
with somebody who has a good reputation,
somebody who's trustworthy. All of these
kinds of things are super important. And
that's before we even start to think
about appropriate preparation and
integration.
What would that appropriate preparation
look like? Do you think someone should
try a lower dose of a different
psychedelic first in a safe environment,
you know, hopefully done properly? Like,
is that step one because going straight
into the jungle seems like level 100
right away. Maybe go somewhere, you
know, there's places where you can
legally do these things, right? So maybe
they go somewhere that where you can
legally take, you know, like a low dose
of psilocybin or something. Um, you
know, is that is that something that's
generally advisable first or do those
people have better outcomes? Have you
observed?
>> Uh, I wouldn't necessarily, you know, I
wouldn't necessarily think that. I mean,
for sure there are similarities with
psychedelic experiences, you know, and
so if you want to have an idea of what
Iaska might be like, then it can be
worth, you know, taking psilocybin
beforehand so you can be better
prepared. But I really, you know, I
really don't think that's necessary. I
think that in terms of in good
preparation is really being clear on
your intention, you know, like why are
you doing this? Like what is it that's
driving you to do this? And then giving
the giving it the appropriate time,
space, and respect. And it doesn't
matter, you know, what you believe and
your belief system surrounding IAS. Just
give yourself the appropriate time and
respect. you know, are you willing to
take a decent amount of time off work,
you know, before and after so that you
don't have to suddenly go back to
working on a bank on Tuesday after
meeting Ganesha over the weekend and you
have no idea what reality is. You you
know what I mean? It's that's a very
funny image of it.
>> Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense.
>> Yeah. Like can you can you give that
time? The most important thing in my
experience is stillness. Stillness in
the mind.
Can you try and get to a point before
you drink Iawaska that you've began to
calm down the you know the wildness of
western life when you try and get to
this sense of peace so that you can
listen to whatever it is that's coming
up from your own mind from something
else doesn't matter and in order to do
that you need to calm down everything.
You need to calm down your diet. You
need to try and make it kind of bland so
that there's nothing that's shocking
your system. You need to, you know,
watch your intake and that's not just
what you're eating, but also what you're
watching, the conversations that you're
having. Just calming everything down to
the sense of stillness and really giving
it that time and respect. It's almost
like if you're going to therapy, ideally
before you have an hour's therapy
session, you should like to have maybe
kind of 10 minutes beforehand, gather
your thoughts, you know, how has the
week been? Rather than you just sprint
into the therapy room, um, sit down.
It's going to take you a while to kind
of to put your thoughts back together.
So, I I see it as being akin to that.
>> Yeah, I've just had the It's so
enjoyable to read through people's trip
reports. I'm lucky enough now that since
I put out a few of these episodes, I get
thousands of these now. And, you know,
every single week reading the most
hilarious, and I hope I can say
hilarious cuz they also say, you know,
haha, it was hilarious in in the
comments. You know, some of them are
very serious, but some of them are just
goddamn hilarious. Like I had an one guy
took salvia and then became a conscious
piece of corn that was in a bag of other
conscious pieces of corn and they were
in a back of a truck going across
America. And I'm like that's just
hilarious. And he was just he said it
was great. It was just a conscious piece
of corn. It was great hanging out
hanging out with his other corn buddies
and he was just kind of passing through
corn fields and it was just like I don't
know what that means even remotely but
he said it was one of the most positive
experiences of his life,
>> you know.
>> Yeah.
What's super interesting is is and again
this might be there's definitely a bit
of a confirmation bias here and the
people that choose to comment and share
their experience but even people that
had incredibly terrible experiences like
horrendous experiences they would then
go on to say it was of the most
impactful and positive experience that
they've had in their life because of the
aftermath like what how it changed them
afterwards. you know, people saying that
they lived entirely other lives with
other families and had to grieve the
their their
children that they had in this 10-minute
salvia trip that felt like 5 years, but
then it completely changed them as a
person. You know, it very often changed
their their psychological relationship
with substances. You know, the probably
the most overarching theme is like I had
an alcohol problem. I was smoking too
many cigarettes. I had a porn addiction.
And then, you know, being folded into a
chair and living a 24-hour life as a
conscious chair was the thing that just
>> it's exactly what you needed. It's
>> like, what would have guessed? And
they're like, and then I was just I
didn't want to smoke anymore. And I'm
like, god damn it. Like, why? That's so
bizarre and so strange.
>> Like,
>> it's so weird, isn't it?
>> It's just so strange. Um, let let's get
let's get to these epigenetic studies.
So, this is super interesting. So you
ran the first psychedelic and
epigenetics study. So first off I guess
>> what is epigenetics? I guess it might be
maybe a good place to start because
that's kind of a word that's thrown
around a lot.
>> Yeah, totally. So the field of
epigenetics is looking at the way in
which our environment impacts the
expression of our genes, the expression
of our DNA. And so it doesn't our DNA
doesn't change but the certain genes
that are expressed changes as a result
of our environment. And this is true for
for everything. So it depends the genes
that are expressed within your genome
depend on the environment that you live
in. Uh so the air quality, the amount of
food that you eat, uh the amount of
stress that you're under as well. And
then these epigenetic changes which are
on the DNA affects proteins on the DNA.
These are then passed down or at least
it seems very likely that these are then
passed down through various generations.
And there are studies that suggest um
they can be passed down in rat studies.
It's 13 generations that they're passed
down before it kind of reverses or kind
of those epigenetic tags begin to
disappear. But then there are other
studies. So for example, looking at
survivors um of the Holocaust and their
children uh suggest that their children
are more uh prone to stress and also
other studies um that suggest that
similar findings as a result of people
surviving the Dutch famine and that
they're more prone to stress as well
because of the stress that happens
during that famine. And the way that it
works is by either um histone
modification or adding on these little
um epigenetic tags onto the proteins on
DNA itself as well.
>> Okay, brilliant setup. So now what what
did you look in for your study and how
psychedelics impacted these epigenetic
markers?
Yeah. So we were looking at um
specifically looking at one particular
marker um called the sigma one gene uh
and that gene is associated with many
different things. It's associated with
neurom modulation with inflammation uh
with stress and DMT. The reason we were
looking at it is because DMT also binds
to sigma 1 as well as the serotonin
receptor um the 5HD2A receptor. And we
found that there was a an upregulation
in the sigma 1 gene, but it was only a
very small upregulation. And the sample
size that we had um was it was 50 and 50
people and you need really kind of
hundreds and hundreds before you can
make solid conclusions surrounding
epigenetics. So it was really it was a
signal that we should be looking at um
IASA and epigenetic change in greater
detail. And so now in the studies that
we're doing looking at Iawaska with
military veterans, we're doing
genomewide analyses. And so we're
looking at the entire genome. And so
that's much better because it's it's
less biased. We can look at uh genes
that, you know, we think that Iaska
might have an impact on and also we
might find genes that we didn't think I
was going to have an impact on. And what
I'm most interested about with that
study is whether or not um Iawaska can
change the expression of genes. So
either crank them up or crank them down.
Um so crank down the expression of genes
that are related to trauma. So, for
example, there are certain genes like
the um genes related to the expression
of cortisol um which are almost
definitely cranked up when people have
PTSD um because they have higher levels
of cortisol um in their in their body
and their blood. And I'm interested in
seeing whether or not drinking Iawaska
could crank those genes down again,
almost like as a reset, as a reversal um
for people um when they come back from
war or when they're trying to uh work
their way through a traumatic situation.
And that's particularly interesting for
me because that could be a biological
mechanism um of action for Iawaska. I
think this is one of the most beautiful
things for me about Iawaska is there are
so many different ways that you can look
at it. So you can think of it in terms
of psychological mechanisms of action,
spiritual mechanisms of action,
biological mechanisms of action and
they're all as valid as each other. Um
yeah, I just find it endlessly
fascinating.
So would the hypothesis be here that if
I took Iawaska, I would not only become
more resistant to trauma myself, but my
children might become more resistant to
trauma because I would pass down those
epigenetic markers to my offspring. Is
that the hypothesis not proven yet, but
possibly?
>> Um, it's more that the impact of trauma
on you and your life um wouldn't be
passed down to your children. So if you
have PTSD uh and you now are more prone
to stress as a result of you know
tuning into stress with your um your
epigenetic change cranking up
>> um the kind of the stress markers on
your genome that you could reset that
and bring it to a baseline level so that
you don't pass that on to your children.
That's really more of the hypothesis.
Gotcha. So if I myself, you know, I've
never been lucky enough to say that I've
never really suffered from much negative
mental health in my life. I'm not going
to get 110% protection if I take
Iawaska. My children, you know, are not
going to gain an additional bit if if
there isn't some predisposition that I
already had or was already actively
suffering from. Again, I guess is the
hypothesis unproven?
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean that that
could be one way of thinking it but but
again you know so for you if trauma you
know thank god isn't a big thing that
you've experienced in your life I'd be
particularly interested to see you know
where are the epigenetic changes that
perhaps it would be better to uh to
reverse or to reset and that would be
passed down onto your children and I'm
not sure that could be based on
lifestyle that could be based on on diet
on you know air quality all of these
different things
>> right
>> I'm curious because you just gave a very
western science um interpretation of
those results, right? What did the
Shapibo think about these results? I
presume you ran you ran this study in
conjunction with them, right? So, when
you give them the data, when you explain
this to them, like what what do they
think about it?
>> Yeah, I'm really glad you asked that
actually because there's there aren't
that many times when Western science
maps on to indigenous science quite
neatly. Um but epigenetics is one of the
ways where it might. So when I was
explaining to the shipbo about you know
the results that we'd got you know and
of course I'd spoken to them about
epigenetics and the theory behind it and
their response was
yeah of course of course that happens
you know I was very excited to say you
know we found that there's you know like
a change in regulation of the sigma 1
receptor and that could suggest that
genes are being um the expression of
genes are being reversed if people are
traumatized so we're going to keep
looking at it and they just said well
yeah we've we've known that for
thousands of years. Um, we we know that
duh
>> the Yeah, exactly. Yeah. We know
>> we know that if you treat if we treat
you then it's going to affect all of
your generations to come. We call that
cleaning ancestral lines. Um, and then
Don Renault, the Shapibo Cord apprentice
under went on to say, and I've been
doing that to you, Simon, for the last
couple of years. You just like didn't
know. I've been like sorting that out
for you. so that you don't pass your own
traumas on to your children. And so
there is this these these times
occasionally where western science and
indigenous science do kind of marry up
and they do meet and I make a point of
trying to kind of explain to people when
that is the case. It's quite nice to see
when there are different explanations of
the same thing.
>> Right. Super interesting.
>> While we have a a Britain or Irishman on
the podcast, let's go into generational
trauma. This is a
>> He went there. He went there.
>> This is something I've been told my
whole life in Ireland. You know, we have
this generational trauma um from the
famine. Um and don't worry, Simon, I
only blame you for like 10 to 15% of the
of 800 years of colonialism. Like it's
only No, I'm kidding, of course. But but
this is something that you hear, but I
never have really heard from scientists
particularly. So I've never I've never
really heard a convincing mechanism or
if there was actual proof of this. I
think
>> this seemed like a narrative that was
told even be before we had before we
knew what epigenetics was and then we
kind of discovered epigenetics and then
suddenly oh everyone was pointing at
like oh that's clearly it. So kind of
reversing you know reverse engineering
the evidence onto a narrative that we
already had to some extent.
>> But is there any real evidence that this
actually exists in humans?
I believe that you know we've been told
a psychological story and that can carry
down through generations psychologically
>> but is there any evidence that there is
genetic changes? M I mean genetic
changes the the only evidence that we
have of that are those two at least that
I'm aware of are those two studies which
are preliminary studies looking at you
know the Dutch famine and also survivors
of the Holocaust and they do suggest
that there is epigenetic change which is
passed down through generations but that
is by no means enough to make solid
conclusions on but it's interesting
because when we think about um uh other
mental health conditions depression
anxiety schizophrenia OCD the the list
goes on. Um there definitely is um
familial factors involved in developing
those conditions. Now the question comes
down to nature versus nature, nature
versus nurture, sorry. Um but I mean
100%
if your family um has suffered from
anxiety, you'd be far more likely to
develop that and to develop anxiety. And
we see that, you know, I see that with
so many patients that have anxiety, your
mom had it, your mom's mom had it. It
seems to run in families. These
conditions do run in families. Whether
this is intergenerational trauma or not,
I'm not sure. But my perception of um
actually I think that most mental health
conditions, not all of them, but most of
the time they usually stem from some
kind of trauma. Um and so in that way, I
guess it is intergenerational trauma.
Um, but again, I'd be I I don't think we
can say at this point or we can't say at
this point that there's genetic evidence
to back up ancestral trauma,
>> right? Because I think there is lots of
valid explanations for intergenerational
trauma, right? If someone is
traumatized, they're going to pass that
trauma down to their child unfortunately
and I think lots of ways, right? They're
going to, you know, have those moments
of not being able to maybe regulate
their emotions properly, lashing out,
whatever. There's a there's so many ways
that someone again just through their
behavior can pass down that that trauma.
But I was curious, was there actually
good evidence of like this happening at
a DNA epigenetic level because of some
event that we could even isolate and say
this was the this was the traumatic
event for the entire population. Because
again, this this narrative still really
common in Ireland, but I just don't know
if there's any really good evidence for
it on an epigenetic level. You don't
even need really need to invoke
epigenetics. I guess we just have
>> a bunch of other explanations that are
pretty valid.
>> Yeah. So, yeah. I mean, like we just
said, I mean, there's a bunch of
explanations that can explain it. In
terms of epigenetics, there's those two
studies which you can't draw solid
conclusions from, but you do have a
signal. You do have a signal. So, I
think it's a it's a promising theory.
It's a promising theory yet to be
proven.
>> Where do you think are the other really
big benefits of Iawaska? I was reading
some of the the studies that you've done
and they are truly amazing. the effect
sizes can be can be massive. Do you want
to highlight maybe one or two of the
really big results or impacts that
you've run in your studies and your
collaboration with row carts with Robin
with with any of these other amazing
organizations or scientists? Like where
have you seen the biggest impact for
IASKA? We've talked about PTSD. Maybe go
into that a bit more if you want, but we
can also go to elsewhere.
>> Yeah, for sure. I mean, it's fresh in my
mind with with PTSD. So, so far we have
with the 80 participants that we have um
you know had going through these IASCAR
experiences these twoe Iaska retreats at
sixth month followup we find that again
over 80% of those participants no longer
meet our criteria for PTSD and so that's
a huge finding that's a huge proportion
it's 80% no longer meet the criteria for
PTSD
And that's also not just after the
retreat. That's longterm. That's 6
months later. That's huge. Now, I need
to caveat that by saying these studies
are observational. You know, they're not
done at randomized control settings.
They're not done at hospitals. Um, you
know, so we do need to recreate them in
hospitals. Also, the data isn't
published yet. Um, because we're still
in the med middle of the study. We still
got another couple of years on that
study. But even so suggestive that
what's happening there um is is
incredible. They're really really
incredible results. The effect sizes are
huge. I mean you almost don't read
effect sizes like that for anything
other than psychedelics. The numbers
just seem insane. And like the sensation
from like heroin addictions, the
addiction numbers just again the effect
sizes on these seem massive. Like
continued sessation of of something
people have struggled with for decades.
you know, it's in the upwards of like 60
70 80% of people are still you, you
know, quit the addictions of I think
either heroin or smoking. Speaking to
Grace Bless Topppley, I I believe you've
collaborated with her. You know, these
are just crazy crazy numbers.
>> And is this is this ongoing integration,
ongoing therapy? Is there a protocol
these people follow over these eight
months? It's not just boom in the jungle
and you're gone. Like what do these
people do as an integration protocol
after the experience? Mhm. Yeah. I mean
there is an integration protocol but it
to be honest is minimal. It's minimal.
Um and that is largely because of
funding. So it's heroic hearts which are
a fantastic organization uh not for
profofits that work with military
veterans who suffer from PTSD sending
them to psychedelic retreats. Um but the
protocol literally involves a couple of
uh or three preparation sessions, three
integration sessions, one-on-one and
then also group integration and group
preparation as well, which in the grand
scheme of things really isn't that much.
Like it really isn't that much at all.
Um I would really like to see how the
results improved even further when there
was a decent amount of prep and
integration. I mean what I always say to
people on these studies is it would be
ideal if you were in kind of continuous
therapy and then you had IAS like
whenever you decided it was necessary uh
and then continued your therapy your
prep and integration work that would be
the ideal way of working um with I think
with most psychedelics but certainly
with IAS if you have something that
you're trying to work through but there
is just a reality both in observational
studies and in the lab based studies
that there's only funding to do so much
and so we you know we make do with what
we have.
>> Yes.
>> How important do you think the
environmental context of the ceremony
you're in a jungle? There's something
kind of mystical and scary called a
shaman that's giving you the bowl that
you're going to drink that was on a tree
like a week ago. you like all of this is
like added importance and added
relevance to the nervous system and like
oh my god this is all so different and
I've just flown you know 6,000
kilometers or whatever it is to Peru and
and I've gotten a one day canoe down the
river and like everything about this is
just so and you know it's also new and
novel and weird and strange and you're
just not really sure how to adjust like
how important is that when you package
all of that together into the experience
that lasts then for months months on
after with the therapeutic benefit, you
know, how much is how much can you
really tease apart the substance from
the environment, the ceremony and all
the rest.
>> I think that it's is vital and you you
can't and this is this is an interesting
thing because whenever I publish
research, this is always the response
that reviewers come back with is well,
how did you know that it was the effect
of the Iawaska rather than the fact that
they're in the jungle, the fact that
they're in a ceremony, that they're away
from home, they're away from family
stress, etc., etc., etc. And my answer
to that is that you you can't like you
you can't separate Iawaska from the
ceremony. You can't separate Iawaska,
you know, from the academy. You can't
separate Iawaska from shamanism. And if
you do, then I would argue you don't
have Iawaska. You have a DMT MRI
combination that you're giving to
somebody in a hospital-based setting.
And another really interesting thing
with this is when you look at the way
that this really kind of throws the you
know the mechanism of action of Iawaska
kind of up in the air for debate but the
traditional way of working with iawaska
involved the cordero drinking iawaska
and the participant didn't drink iawaska
sometimes they would but most of the
time they would so the cordo would drink
iwaska they would then experience
visions they would then you know connect
with their spirit spirits. They would
then ask the spirits to heal the
participant on their behalf. Um, and
they would also get information
surrounding the diagnosis of the
participant by looking into them and
they would have information surrounding
the plants that they needed to give them
their prescription.
And the participant wouldn't drink and
they would and you know that's that form
of shamanism has been done in the Amazon
forest for thousands of years. It looks
like thousands of years. And so then
suddenly from a western perspective
we're saying well actually you know I
think it's because DMT is you know
binding to 5T H2A receptors and then
we're having increased neuroplasticity
and like the amydala fear center is
being dampened and then the prefrontal
cortex is being heightened. It's like
yeah yeah yeah all that stuff is
happening for sure but could there be
something else that's happening that
we're just completely ignoring and we
are. we literally are ignoring what the
Iaskeros, the people who work with
Iawaska say is the most important part
um of of the Iaskar experience. And I
think that's really really interesting
to look at as well. And as scientists,
we shouldn't be just be completely
ignoring that because my feeling is that
that in itself is unscientific
for sure. Wouldn't that seems to be a
great control group for the study,
right? If you got an equal amount of
participants and you brought them over
and you did the 24-hour canoe ride and
the long plane and the ceremony and the
music, but they didn't take the
substance and the the shaman took the
substance, it seems like comparing those
two groups would be a really fascinating
result. Like, do you see the same level
of PTSD benefit in that group or what
what's the effect size difference? you
know, cuz that that seems like you're
getting it's it's hard to control for
everything, but you're almost getting
everything except the substance there.
So, it seems like a good way of
isolating the importance of the
substance itself.
>> Yeah, totally. And I actually tried to
do that study. Um, but the ethics board,
uh, I'm not going to say the name of the
university, throw them under the bus,
but the ethics board that I I put it
forward to said it was too similar to a
randomized control trial. uh and they
didn't want to for whatever reason they
didn't want to to give ethical
permission uh to do that study.
>> Wouldn't that be a positive?
>> Wouldn't that be a
>> No, I know. I know. I thought so.
>> But this is too similar like the science
that we usually do. You can't do that do
it that way.
>> What sort of what sort of explanation is
that?
>> I know it was it was super frustrating.
>> Since Since then I have now changed to a
much better university called the
University of Exa. So I'm hoping that
they're going to allow me to do that in
an upcoming study. But yeah, absolutely
that is that is the question. But then
I'm also hesitant about putting
anything that can result in western
science being given the ability to
either validate or not to validate
indigenous science. And the risk of that
study that we have to consider is that
say that there's no difference in our
measures would the it would be easy then
for people to say okay well actually we
know that it is Iaska drinking the Iaska
which is having the outcome and
therefore the shaman is redundant. you
know, that could be a conclusion that we
could come to, but that's not
considering the fact that it's pretty
unfair that we're looking at we're using
Western science as the paradigm to
either validate or not to validate
shamanism. And it's very likely that,
you know, if there is validity in
shamanism, our measures aren't able to
pick up on everything the shaman is
doing.
um we quite often see uh or actually in
most of our studies that it doesn't
matter whether or not you've taken
Iawaska it's more than three times or up
to 20. So if you take an Iaska 18 times
or 12 times or six times it doesn't have
any difference on your measures relating
to depression, anxiety and general
mental health.
>> That's interesting.
>> Yeah. Which is super interesting. But
and then the one conclusion that you can
draw is Yeah. So you only need Iawaska
three times and then it doesn't lead to
any you know any further benefits. But
the subjective feedback from these
participants and what the shamans are
saying is no I feel much better and the
shaman saying yeah we not only work
through your trauma but we've started
removing the trauma from your family
started like and giving you good energy
all this kind of stuff. Now, could it be
that we're reaching re reaching a
ceiling level with the measures that we
have and that our questionnaires are
showing yes, there's no more depression,
but actually there's a whole host of
other things that are happening that we
just don't have the right tools um to
assess and to pick up on. So,
>> as with all of this research, we can ask
really interesting questions, but then
we also have to watch out for the
conclusions that might be drawn um
especially when they might be inaccurate
and unethical.
>> Sure. Makes sense. I know. I know we
can't know, but would you have any
predictions on if someone did take the
Iawaska brew in a, you know, dull,
depressing hospital room in Bath? Like
what?
>> Bath is quite nice. I don't know why I
adapt Bath there. I was vicious fangs
out for Bath. I never even been to Bath.
Um, anywhere, insert any sort of, you
know, typical hospital in the UK or
Ireland makes no odds. I'm not I'm not
UK bashing here whatsoever. I I'm just
I'm just I'm just comparing the context.
Like would you make a prediction that
that's going to be half as effective?
Would you even just I can't even make a
prediction. Do you have any thoughts on
like what you would expect the effect
size difference to be? Would there be
one?
>> I mean, so there have been studies that
have been done looking at many studies
that have been looking at in
hospital-based studies in hospital-based
settings and they all have really good
results. They all show that there are,
you know, massive improvements in
everything that you would expect.
Depression, anxiety, you know, all of
these kind of increases in openness in
personality, all of the classic things
that you would look at. Um, but again, I
think that there are a whole host of of
other things that potentially we're not
able to measure and we're not able to
look at. What I will say though is that
usually the effect sizes are much higher
in the observational research than it is
in randomiz randomized control trials.
But that's also normal. It's also normal
that observational research will have
huge effect sizes and then when you
bring these things into hospitals the
effect sizes get um get much lower. I
mean my perception on that is that I
mean I think that is just kind of one of
the things that happens when you take
and translate observational research
into you know more controlled settings.
But I think also you're beginning to
remove many of the the ways that Iaska
works and you're just isolating one
mechanism which is the pharmacological
mechanism. And so if you remove the
shaman, you know, at least according to
shamanism, you've removed the most
important person. You've removed you've
removed the main mechanism of action.
Also, you know, like the setting being
in the jungle is hugely important in
shamanism. You're surrounded by the
plants, the spirits. That's one of the
things that gives the shamans, you know,
their power. So if you remove that, then
you've reached another mechanism of
action. So from a shamanic perspective,
you're just literally just looking at
one tiny way in the way that Iaska
works. And so of course that's going to
make the effect sizes smaller um in my
opinion.
>> Right. Super interesting. I find all
this super interesting. I really I
really want to try this. I do want to
try this. I I considered doing a podcast
while doing this. I don't know if that's
uh
>> I don't know if that's possible
>> in the most respectful way. Yeah,
exactly. In but in the most respectful
way to the practice and try and not
doing it in any way other than this is
as genuine a trying to, you know, relay
the experience as it happens. Um would I
be possible, you know, capable of speech
or do you think I would just absolutely
not be capable of speech?
>> I mean, I think you probably would be
capable of speech. I'd also kind of
question whether that's something you'd
want to do and do a podcast on Iawaska.
Um, yeah, I'm not sure. Have to have to
have a think about that.
>> Do you have an idea in your mind of what
the spiritual mechanism of action is?
Because we've talked a bunch about, you
know, you listed off sort of we have
decent hypotheses on what the scientific
mech mechanism of action is. Does it
even make sense to try and verbalize the
spiritual mechanism of action? Is it
something that is translatable into
language? I'm curious to know how you
even think about that because I don't
you know you've spent so long thinking
about this and you've had so many
experiences like how do you think about
the spiritual benefit detached from you
know the rigorous scientific data that
we have in the empirical experiments
just on the spiritual side like what
what do you think is actually happening
there? M
yeah I mean that's that's a a huge huge
question you know and I think that um
again from a a shamanic point of view
there's only so much that you can
understand as a human it's almost like
saying that question is almost like
saying what's the the spiritual
mechanism of God you know like how does
how does God help people
>> so it's it's really hard to answer I
mean but
>> but a few kind of tangible things you
know what what I've seen and experienced
and you know have been training in is
there's usually removal of something
whether it be some kind of blockage
whether it be some kind of attachment
you know like something like that and
then there's also kind of filling
filling with with positive things as
well and that is just you know so high
level it's it's ridiculous but um but
again it's almost like a um an ineffable
question um that it's impossible to
answer
>> my I totally get that my ignorance was
on display and even asking that but you
know I just I don't even know what the
right way to talk about this is and
since I'm coming from the science
background and really trying to
understand all the other aspects I'm
like willing to ask the dumb question to
just because I totally get that some of
these questions might not have answers
doesn't even make sense to talk about it
that way but I'm just curious on hearing
your perspective on this and how you
think about these sort of things or how
what are the frameworks and models you
have in your mind for for thinking about
these things because that you know
there's just so much more advanced than
than mine the listeners you know That's
why it's just curious to even hear you
say it's like the mechanism of God, you
know, that's revealing in of itself.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. But as I say,
I mean, thinking about it from a
spiritual point of view, that that is
one way of thinking about it. But, uh,
you know, I I find that the the most
holistic way to think about it is the
kind of the spiritual mechanism of
healing, but then also the biological,
also the psychological, and all of it
together. When you bring all of it
together, you begin to get a more
holistic idea on how Iaska works in my
opinion. And it gets easy to kind of to
get focused, you know, in, you know, the
western world and being from a science
background, we're so obsessed with the
biological, you know, and the
psychological. But then it's also very
easy to get completely obsessed with the
spiritual. You see many westerners who
get into get into spiritual ways of
thinking just like completely think
about it from that point of view and
completely, you know, disregard it
doesn't matter. And it doesn't matter
that ser that you know ISA affects
serotonin receptors. It does. It doesn't
matter Iawaska affects epigenetics. Like
it does like these are all completely
valid ways that that Iaska works and and
I think that yeah focusing on all of
them is really the way forward.
>> Yeah. I I love that time and I think
you're awesome. I think the fact that
you can juggle between these two again
seemingly opposed forces is so
fascinating to me. I love I love when
you when you connect them when you bring
them together and when you demonstrate
to the ignorant like me that you know
maybe they're not as opposed as we might
think and we need to be very open-minded
about it. What would be your like one
dream experiment that you could run now
if you had you know 10 billion in
funding and ethics ethics approval. Um
you only have your own ethics to follow
by which I you know I assume is rigorous
enough by the sound of this
conversation. like what what would you
do tomorrow if you had if you had all
the money um and like what would be the
the one experiment? What's the most
interesting question? What what what
would you aim to do?
>> That is that is a really really
difficult question. Um, you know,
something that that's on my mind that I
would like to look at is
so in the in the Amazon rainforest where
um if you're working with the Shapibo
and they're kind of adhering to this
animistic uh view of the world, they
quite often describe different plants as
having different personalities. The
different the spirits of these plants
have different personalities and you
work with different plants. Um, and when
you work with them enough, you begin to
come like them. You begin to become like
the spirit of that. So, for example, if
you
>> need some kind of protection, you might
want to, you know, work with a plant
called churaki and you become very kind
of strong or maybe kind of like slightly
mischievous and various other
manifestations. And various other plants
have different personalities.
I would like to run a study where you
assess personality changes in people who
have been working with particular plants
um to see whether or not the described
characteristics of these plants are
manifest um in the people that are
working with them. I think that would be
super interesting.
>> Now I think about it, the issue with
that though would be ideally you'd have
it blinded, right? So you'd have to
blind the people to which plant they're
working with, which might be more
tricky, and then see if they develop
those characteristics. But something
like that, I think looking into this
practice called master plantetas, which
is it's the cornerstone of Amazonian
shamanism. is when you go into isolation
for long periods of time, weeks, months,
and sometimes years, and you just
consume small amounts of a particular
plant to get to know the spirit of that
plant. Um, that's something that I'd
really I'd really like to look at.
>> Fascinating. Yeah, you're right that of
course blinding there is is crucial
because if you have an idea and a if
your perspective is that this plant is
is energetic, you know, of course by by
the rules of you think something, it
happens. um you know that's going to
make you more energetic. But if you
blinded that and actually did find some
significant results, I mean that would
be so interesting.
>> Scientist and be like go on explain that
then huh come on
try try explain this Mr. Mr. Science
Man. You're like that would be so so
interesting.
>> Yeah, it's fascinating isn't it? It's
endlessly fascinating. There's so much
that you could look at. It's Yeah,
there's such a pleasure to be doing this
work. Kind of similar to you. I think I
reflect on my job almost daily and just
like I can't believe I get to do this.
This is so amazing. I love it so much.
>> Absolutely.
>> Yeah. I resonate with that so much, man.
This has been such a pleasure. So So fun
to meet you. Such a fun conversation. I
hope we have many more conversations. I
would love to try this sometime.
>> I don't know when. I think I you I would
love to try this eventually. Um you
maybe I'll I'll hit you up if I'm if I'm
ever actually considering booking that
flight. But super super interesting,
man. Great conversation. You're really a
great hospital in Bath, you know, if you
want to go and do it. I know a great
hospital in Bath and we can kind of give
it to you there and see how you get
>> on.
I have this I have a one by one jail
cell for you. Um,
>> I deserve that. Thank you so much, man.
Absolute pleasure. So much fun.
>> A pleasure. The Giant Shoulder mission
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