I was thinking last night when Massie
lost in Kentucky. I was thinking back to
Trump's inauguration, the morning of the
Trump inauguration, which amazingly was
only last year, last January, January
20th. And I was in Washington for that.
And Trump invited me to church on the
morning before he was sworn in. And so,
of course, I went and it was at St.
John's, the Episcopal church in
Lafayette Square, where pretty much
every president has gone on the morning
of the inauguration. So I showed up,
happens to be my denomination, the
Episcopal Church. So I know the church
pretty well. I know people who work
there. So I was pretty excited about
going and saying a prayer for this this
presidency. So I'm standing outside at
maybe 6:45 in the morning and it is
freezing. And if you've been to
Washington in the winter, you know, it's
mostly pretty temperate, but the cold
days are very cold. And there's
something about the cold in a city that
is biting. Even if you like cold, it's
tough. And this was probably 12° and
windy. And I remember that very well
because we were standing in line in a
security line waiting to go through the
magnetometer and the secret service was
there. It was whole rigomearroll and
dogs and and they were taking forever.
It's their fault, but the protocols are
complex and it was awful standing. They
were kind of stamping our feet and
grousing. Not many people was pretty
small church service, but the people
were standing in line. We're like,
"Let's get going and get into church."
And as we're standing there feeling
freezing, waiting to be searched by
federal law enforcement,
a woman brushed by me on the left side,
kind of walking fast,
older woman, not very tall, and I
recognized her. And it was Miriam
Adlesen. And she blew past me and
everybody else in line and went right to
the front, right to the magnetometer,
announced who she was, and walked on in.
And I thought to myself, Miriam Adlesen,
who I know vaguely, not really, but I
knew that she was the biggest or one of
the biggest donors to the Trump
campaign, an Israeli born in Israel,
widow of Sheldon add, the biggest
Republican donor, the casino magnet, but
more than anything, a fervent neocon.
Her main issue is American support for
Israel. She says this, it's not a
secret, and she spends accordingly. And
she brushes past me. I remember thinking
this and everybody else and just walks
right in like she owns the place and I
remember thinking h I hope this isn't an
omen. I hope it's not a sign of things
to come. It feels a little bit like a
metaphor. I hope that's not real. So I
kind of sublimated it. Tried not to
think about it. Finally got into church.
Sat alone in a pew with Charlie Kirk.
Had a great time. We were both almost
jubilant really that Trump had been
elected. We didn't think he would, but
he did. And we were thrilled. Not just
because we like Trump, which we did cuz
he's hilarious and fun to talk to and
interesting and
but because he ran on ideas that we
agreed with really strongly and first
among them was the idea self-evident
really that the US government ought to
serve in fact it exists to serve the
interests of American citizens. And it
really has no other role in the world.
doesn't mean it has to strike a bellose
posture toward anyone else. Hurting
other people isn't necessary. But
helping your own people is the only
reason you exist if you're the US
government or one of its many employees.
And the American president should
proceed from that commitment. I am here
to serve my people as a father does with
his children, an officer with his men,
etc. That's leadership,
service to the people you lead and a
love for those people. And both of us
were convinced at the time that Donald
Trump was that man, that he was truly
America first. And because he was, this
would be a great moment for our country,
a much needed relief from a worldview
that put America at the bottom of its
concerns. But that would also change the
Republican party, which was meaningful
because the Republican party along with
Trump had just taken total control of
the country.
both houses in Congress, House and
Senate, the White House, majority of the
Supreme Court appointed by Republicans,
the Republicans were in charge. And we
hoped and at the moment we believed that
the Republican party would change along
with Trump its new leader and that it
would change in one specific way. It
would come to put the concerns of
Americans first. Period. That's it. We
can argue about how best to serve them,
but serving them has to be the goal. And
so we imagine Charlie Kirk and I we may
have talked about this in the pew that
we would see the Republican party
suddenly populated by a lot of people
like well like Thomas Massie. I can't
remember if we actually talked about
Thomas Massie but we had before and
Charlie Kirk had talked a lot about
Thomas Massie and Charlie Kirk loved
Thomas Massie not just as a person
because he was honest and decent but
because Thomas Massiey's orientation was
purely about what's best for the
country. And again, he said it many
times, including in this representative
interview of Thomas Massie. Here's
Charlie Kirk. He loves Liberty. He's
honest and he's tough and he's going to
really go after the intel agencies. It's
Thomas Massie who's just terrific from
Kentucky. Congressman Massie, welcome to
the program.
>> Hey, thanks for having me on, Charlie.
>> This might sound like a strange
question, but I know it's on everybody's
mind. You're going to be on the
committee that will oversee the most
powerful institutions on the planet, the
FBI, the CIA, maybe the IRS.
Are you concerned for your own safety
andor what they might try to do to
blackmail you?
>> Oh, absolutely. You'd be, by the way,
you're not qualified to be on this
committee if you don't realize that
there will be an effort to discredit me.
It's poignant and honestly kind of
fascinating in retrospect to hear
Charlie Kirk express alarm at the
behavior of the intel agencies. Are you
afraid they're going to kill you or
blackmail you? He says to Thomas Massie.
Charlie Kirk was thinking about that
even then.
It was only 8 months after the
inauguration less than that Charlie Kirk
of course was murdered assassinated in
public in a very very strange shooting.
And at around the same time, Donald
Trump pivoted from the promises that we
at the time believed to become something
completely different. It would have been
unimaginable
for us sitting in those pews at St.
John's across from the White House on
the morning of the inauguration to
picture Donald Trump covering up the
Epstein files encouraging more secrecy,
encouraging more surveillance, more
spying on Americans, to be encouraging
data centers across the country to abet
that surveillance.
And above all, it would have been
stunning for us. In fact, we wouldn't
have been able to comprehend it that
morning in January of last year that
Donald Trump would be cheerleading a
regime change war in the Middle East
against Iran of all Middle Eastern
nations, the biggest and most powerful,
because both of us understood the point
of Donald Trump and the reason that we
supported him was because he would never
do anything like that. That morning, the
morning of the inauguration, both
Charlie Kirk and I believed that Donald
Trump had meant what he said in speech
after speech, in public, in
conversations with us, endless
conversations with both of us on this
exact topic.
And so, if you're trying now to remember
the Donald Trump that we thought was
real on the morning of the inauguration,
here's a reminder. This is a speech that
Trump gave in 2020. Biden shipped away
our jobs, threw open our borders, and
sent our youth to fight in these crazy
endless wars. And it's one of the
reasons the military I'm not saying the
military is in love with me. The
soldiers are. The top people in the
Pentagon probably aren't because they
want to do nothing but fight wars so
that all of those wonderful companies
that make the bombs and make the planes
and make everything else stay happy.
Let's bring our soldiers back home. Some
people don't like to come home. Some
people like to continue to spend money.
One cold-hearted globalist betrayal
after another. That's what it was. One
coldhearted globalist betrayal after
another. That's what it was. And he was
right. That's exactly what it was. One
cold-hearted globalist betrayal after
another. Betrayals of the United States
and its future. The future of our
children, including the children that
your children may not have because of
those betrayals. Charlie Kirk was very
upset about this. He was articulate in
explaining why he was upset about it and
he sincerely believed that Trump would
change it. Trump and people like Thomas
Massie.
It's hard to imagine what he would think
about the remarks that Donald Trump, the
same man that he voted for and
campaigned for, went to pray for in the
church the morning of the inauguration,
what he would have thought of the Donald
Trump on display yesterday when he said
this. Watch.
>> I'm right now at 99% in Israel. I could
run for prime minister. So maybe after I
do this, I'll go to Israel, run for
prime minister. I had a poll this
morning. I'm 99%.
So that's good. The president of the
United States bragging about his
popularity in a foreign country.
I'm 99% in Israel. Unmentioned is the
fact that he's 35% in the United States.
35% support from Americans, the people
he pledged to represent, to fight for,
whose side he promised to take in every
conflict, foreign and domestic. And yet
there he is bragging about how popular
he is in a foreign country, the same
country that got us into the war that is
causing to some extent his unpopularity
in this country. Speaking of coldhearted
globalist betrayals,
now you can say, "Well, that's just
Trump searching for affirmation wherever
he can. Unpopular at home, he retreats
into the fantasy of his popularity in
another country." Well, yes, true.
But it's not a one-time exhibition of
this.
That president has spent the last year
looking outward
toward the approval of other nations.
That president has spent the last year
fighting for people who were not his
voters and in many cases not even
Americans
and allowing his own country to
languish.
The last year has not made America great
again. The last year has diminished
American power at a rate some of us
thought was unimaginable.
We couldn't have foreseen
less than a year and a half ago sitting
in St. John's the damage that this
administration led by that president for
whom we campaigned and liked personally
could do to this country.
How did this happen? Well, historians
are going to have to figure that out.
What was the change? Was Donald Trump a
sleeper cell the entire time working on
behalf of Benjamin Netanyahu while
pretending to be an America first
patriot? Maybe. Hard to imagine that.
This is someone who tends to externalize
everything, who tends to say what he's
thinking, probably doesn't have the
self-control to be a long-term sleeper
agent.
And so if that's true, if Trump really
did change completely, not just by six
degrees, but by 180 degrees, what caused
the change? What was the moment where
Donald Trump decided, I really don't
care what the people who voted for me
think? In fact, I don't think I like
them very much. And what I really care
about is what a foreign prime minister
and some widowed casino magnet think of
me.
Who knows
what caused that change, but the change
is demonstrable.
When did you first notice? I'll tell you
when I first noticed it was last summer.
And the spark wasn't the war with Iran.
It was the Epstein files.
Why the Epstein files?
Well, out of nowhere, the president, who
had effectively told his voters that he
would declassify the Epstein files along
with the files pertaining to all kinds
of controversial and much discussed
events around which conspiracy theories
have grown, notably the JFK
assassination, but not just that, all of
them. There's too much secrecy in the
federal government. That's what the
president, the now president said again
and again. Why is there secrecy? Because
secrecy hides corruption.
You can't be corrupt in the open. Of
course, you need to be
shielded by secrecy. And by the way,
this is a president who was indicted and
threatened with the rest of his life in
prison for violating secrecy laws.
Secrecy laws which were not written to
protect American national security. Of
course not. And they haven't. They
didn't prevent Jonathan Pard from
stealing our key military secrets and
giving them to the Israeli government,
which promptly gave them to the Soviets.
didn't help at all. No, those laws were
written to prevent you, the people who
pay for the federal government, from
learning what the federal government is
actually doing. Secrecy abats
corruption. It's obvious. None of this
can thrive in sunlight. It dies
famously.
And so the pledge, the promise, the core
promise behind America first and drain
the swamp and every other slogan, all of
which I loved, I'll just say it, and
love to this day.
The pledge behind all of those was to
let people know what their own
government is doing, both because they
have a right to know and because once
they do know, the corruption will stop.
It's about corruption.
It's about a justice system that does
not treat every person as a citizen,
much less a child of God, but treats
them as members of casts. And members of
some casts have to obey the law, and
members of other casts don't. There is
not equal treatment under the law.
Therefore, there is no justice.
Therefore, the most basic promise of
America, which is that you will be
judged by what you do,
is invalid. And so is democracy itself.
How can you vote for things if you don't
know what they are? Well, you can't. You
have no control in a world where the
most important facts are hidden from
you.
And that obvious observation which spoke
not just to Republicans but to a lot of
non-Republicans famously people who made
up the Trump 2024 coalition. That
promise was the promise. the government
will work for you and you alone and you
will know that because you're going to
know what the government is doing
because of course foreign lobbying of
your government or lobbying by big
farmer or lobbying by anybody of your
government is by definition
corruption
because it gives more weight to the
preferences of a small group of people
than to the majority. It's a betrayal.
It's a corruption of democracy. It is
corruption.
And there is probably no figure in
modern history who embodies corruption
more perfectly than Jeffrey Epstein. Not
because he was the worst person who ever
lived. He wasn't. He was just an
employee in a much larger structure. He
wasn't making independent decisions.
Come on now.
But he got away with it. Jeffrey Ebstein
somehow won Powerball in the state of
Oklahoma. And collected almost $30
million. Jeffrey Epstein won Powerball.
Okay. Now, how'd that happen? Wasn't
from Oklahoma. No one's ever explained
how he won. The feds looked into it. No
explanation. He just somehow collected
almost $30 million from Powerball. Okay.
Now, so what's the lesson there? The
lesson and the reason it's funny is
because the system is rigged and
everyone knows it's rigged and Epstein
proves that it's rigged.
And at some point, it was rigged
apparently against Epstein.
How do we know that? Well, because on
July 6th, 2019, he was arrested at
Teterboroough Private Airport outside
New York City on a flight from Paris,
and he was charged with basically the
same crimes he'd been charged with back
in 2006 by the state of Florida.
Now, you would think that that would be
not allowed, double jeopardy. Well, the
feds made the case, well, that was those
were state charges. These are federal
charges. But he had a federal
nonprosecution agreement. It's not a
defense of Jeffrey Epstein, of course.
It's merely noting the obvious, which is
what the Justice Department did to
Jeffrey Ebstein in 2019 was very weird
and no one has ever explained why they
did that. But what we do know is that a
month and 3 days after he was arrested
at TW airport, he was dead and he was
murdered.
That's obvious.
And it was never investigated. That's a
fact. So what does that up to add up to?
Well, I don't know. Draw your own
conclusions. Here you have a guy who's
entangled with multiple intel agencies
from a bunch of different countries,
notably the United States and Israel,
but also British intelligence, probably
the French, the usual paniply.
And he's running around the world as an
arms dealer and a connector, and he's
got some relationship to 9/11. What is
that? And he wins Powerball.
He's operating at the highest levels.
He's not running anything, but he's
operating at those levels. And he knows
a lot, a lot, a lot. and one day he is
summoned back from Paris and arrested
and a month later he's murdered.
So it stands to reason that anyone
involved in any of that probably had
direct involvement in his murder.
No one ever asked these questions.
That's not considered interesting
because it's not related to sex. But it
may be a little bit closer to the heart
of why this is such a touchy subject for
this administration. Because keep in
mind, Donald Trump was president in
2019.
And it was his attorney general,
Attorney General Bar, the son,
strangely, of the man who had given
Jeffrey Epstein his first job teaching
at the Dalton School and then helped get
him a job at Bear Sterns and then
launched him into whatever world he
occupied until he was murdered
under the authority of Attorney General
Bar. Kind of weird. Well, so weird that
at very least it demands an explanation
which we've never received.
In any case, probably not going to
receive one anytime soon because the
president who could explain it was
remarkably touchy about the subject.
Very, very touchy. And whenever it came
up, and this was a shock to a lot of his
supporters, he didn't just brush it off
and say, "Oh yeah, we'll get to that
after we fixed the economy and lowered
gas prices and made it possible for your
son to get a job."
No, his response was, "WELL, HYSTERICAL.
SHUT UP. Anyone who asks about Epstein
is not my supporter, and I don't want
your support." He said that in a truth
social post at the time last summer.
Look it up. And so, for those of us who
campaigned for Trump and voted for him
and liked him, the first thought was,
"What is this? Isn't the whole point of
your administration to drain the swamp?
Isn't this why you got elected? So, you
could end this two-tiered system where
some people get to molest kids and win
Powerball in Oklahoma and everything's
fine until they're murdered somehow, but
no one no one can ever figure out how.
And the rest of us who get arrested for
having three beers and driving to
7-Eleven
get arrested because you make a mistake
on your tax form. Not all of us have uh
Department of Justice ordered respit
from federal audits. Some of us are
subject to federal audits and know that
we'll get them if we step out of line.
So, it would be nice. And again, this
was the promise of the campaign and of
the administration and the reason that
some of us filed into church
though behind Miriam Medson on that cold
morning a year and a half ago. Why would
Donald Trump shut down any not just
investigation into but any conversation
about the guy who embodies the
corruption he was elected to end?
That thought has never left my mind and
probably the mind of a lot of other
people.
Was Trump involved in some weird sex
thing? Probably not, actually.
That might be better than the actual
answer.
And the actual answer may be that Donald
Trump is covering up for exactly the
people he was elected to expose.
So that was the moment. Well, apparently
Thomas Massie didn't get the memo, but
that is totally off limits. talk about
whatever you want. You can make fun of
Kla Harris's teeth, but you don't talk
about Ebstein cuz the whole point of the
Republican party is to make sure that we
don't talk about Epste. Isn't that
right? Isn't that what he became a
Republican?
Thomas Massie didn't get the memo. And
he started saying in his kind of
autistic, forthright way, "What about
Epste? I want to know about Epstein."
And rather than just brush him off or
blow him off or ignore him, Donald Trump
fixated on him and began to hate Thomas
Massie.
And in a move that may reveal what the
Epstein story is really about, he made
common cause with some of his biggest
donors. Those would include Paul Singer.
Paul Singer,
a liberal who is somehow one of the
biggest donors in the Republican party
and John Paulson and of course Miriam
Adlesen.
And they colluded in effect to destroy
Thomas Massie.
Now, Thomas Massie, in addition to
calling for more disclosure of the
Epstein documents, which by the way
belong to the citizens of the United
States, they aren't the personal
property of any federal bureaucrat. They
belong to the people of the country,
who also, by the way, own the federal
detention center in which Epstein was
murdered and are therefore owed an
explanation of who murdered him and why,
and why hasn't that person been
arrested?
In any case, Thomas Massie demanded
this. But Thomas Massie also had another
distinction, another asterisk by his
name out of 217 Republicans in the
Congress. Thomas Massie is the only one
who's never taken money from the Israeli
lobby. He's the only one.
And Thomas Massiey's never been opposed
to Israel in any sense. You can search
the archive for Thomas Massie attacking
Israel or Jews or anything on the topic.
Doesn't seem that interested. Thomas
Massiey's position is a principled one
and a consistent one going back decades.
The United States has a lot of problems
and maybe first among them is a debt
problem. The United States is bankrupt,
beyond bankrupt. The United States is so
deeply in debt that its creditors are
worried
and we cannot afford to send any more
foreign aid to anyone. That would
include Egypt
and it would very much include the
largest recipient of foreign aid by far,
which is Israel, which is not
strategically important to the United
States in any sense. We receive nothing
of value from Israel, nothing.
And when you compare whatever tech we
receive, the spy wear on our phones
against the cost in dead Americans and
in American dollars and in the total
isolation now of the United States,
which is in part the result of our
alliance with Israel. It's not a good
deal for us. And so Thomas Messi has
stood alone all of these years. He has
made zero headway in stopping aid to
Israel or in even changing minds about
Israel. But he has persisted in his
lonely principled campaign against
foreign aid.
And so because of that, Trump colluded
with three of his donors, including his
biggest, Mary Melson, to destroy Thomas
Massie, and to end his career in
Congress by beating him in the
Republican primary in the fourth
district of Kentucky, a place we can bet
Maryen has never been to and could not
find on a map and in which she has no
real interest.
And that makes you wonder, well, why
would she and her fellow neocon
billionaires spend tens of millions of
dollars to kick Thomas Massie out of the
Congress? And of course, because Israel,
that's it. Thomas Massie criticized not
Israel, but America's relationship with
Israel. And that can't be allowed.
What's interesting is that it wasn't
just Trump and it wasn't just his
donors, Mary Mson and Paul Singer and
Paulson and the rest.
It was the entire American news media,
left and right. Here's CBS News
interviewing Thomas Massie about his
race and really one of the remarkable
clips of the past month. Watch this.
There have been more than $32 million
spent on a primary. Yeah. In this
congressional district, which is now the
most expensive House primary ever in the
United States.
>> Is it worth it?
>> You'd have to ask Miriam Adlesen on uh
May 20th if it was worth it because, you
know, they tried to buy my vote for 14
years and it was never for sale. They've
tried now they're trying to buy a seat
here in Kentucky. you know, that kind of
criticism doesn't sit well with fellow
Republicans, at least in the House
Republican conference, that there are
others who've accused you of
all sorts of things regarding uh Israel,
regarding the state of Israel, regarding
the Israeli government, regarding Jewish
Americans.
>> Are you anti-semitic? They're trying to
tell you that it's anti-semitic for me
to expose the fact that the Republican
Jewish coalition has spent millions of
dollars in this race. That a dual
citizen, Miriam Adlesen, who even Trump
says is more loyal to Israel than the
United States, has spent millions of
dollars in this race. Those are mere
facts. And it really
>> say yes or no. Are you anti-semitic or
not?
>> Oh, hell no. I'm hell no. Anti-Semitic.
But here's the danger that Apac runs.
They've been too cute by a half. They've
tried to get Mike Johnson and he's
willingly done this conflate in
resolutions on the House floor that
anti-ionism equals anti-semitism. Or
even worse yet, that if you don't
support Benjamin Netanyahu's war in
Gaza, then you're anti-semitic. That's
absolutely false. And it does Jewish
Americans a big disfavor to equate the
two.
>> You got to wonder what that kid from CBS
News is being paid. And does he ask
himself, is it worth it? So he of course
asked the question to Massie, which is
not a question. It's slander posing as a
question. Are you an anti-semite?
There's no evidence Massiey's an
anti-semite. He's never said anything,
not one thing, anti-semitic ever,
because he's not an anti-semite. Are you
an anti-semite? To which Massie says,
"No, actually the Republican Jewish
Coalition is spending millions to beat
me because I don't believe in sending
more money to Israel to fund their
genocide against the Palestinians."
Doesn't say that, but that's what this
is about. Should the United States
government pay for a genocide? No would
be the answer for most people. But the
reporter doesn't even listen to it. Are
you an anti-semite? Yes or no. So it
almost was mashed. He said, "Well, yeah,
yeah, I'm an anti-semite." But I mean,
what are you an anti-semite?
So the reporter gets to say it twice.
Anti-semite. Anti-semite. When Massiey's
critique of our foreign aid package to
Israel has nothing to do with Judaism,
Jewish ethnic identity, it has no
connection whatsoever to blood liel or
well poisoning or any of the
historical examples that are often
dredged up to compare people like Thomas
Massie to. You're a Nazi. He is in no
sense a Nazi. In fact, he's an anti-
athoritarian, unlike the reporter from
CBS News who's bludgeoning him over the
head with slander.
So, you may say to yourself, "Well, of
course that's CBS News." You may not
even be aware that that was bought
by a huge contributor to the IDF, the
Israel Defense Forces. And part of the
rationale, maybe the main rationale for
having CBS News at all at this point is
to ask questions like that. If you
didn't know those facts, you might
think, well, that's just the mainstream
media, the lamestream media,
using the same tactics they always have.
slander, innuendo, attacks, posing as
questions, not bothering to listen to
the answer, totally interested in the
reality of anything, pushing an agenda.
And you'd be right.
But what's so revealing is that it
wasn't just liberal mainstream CBS news.
It was what's often incorrectly
described as the far right. The far
right.
far right, meaning I don't know, anyone
who's against mass migration who raises
his voice or something.
But that would include Mark Leavvin,
someone who spent a lot of his life
denouncing the lamestream media. And
yet, if you listen to Mark Leavvin's
critique
of the Massie race, it's identical to
the CBS News critique of the race, which
is Massie has no valid points. It's
impossible to imagine Massie could be
opposing
aid to Israel except out of personal
hatred, animous, out of anti-semitism.
It's impossible to imagine any American
could support something so crazy as not
sending billions to Israel. So the only
people supporting Massie must be radical
jihadis.
Here's Mark Leven.
>> I'm looking at the support from Massie.
It's the most radical jihadis in our
country. It is Democrats. It is talib.
I mean, think of it's Ran Paul. the
reprobates,
the misgrants, and I underscore the
malcontents
are moving behind
Massie
and they're raising tons of money
and Massie is supported by all the
elements that support Hamas,
Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah,
Iran. Why is that?
He's supported by all the American
haters and Jew haters and many of the
Christian haters in this country. Why is
that?
They're Jew haters. They support Islamic
jihad, whatever that is.
It's actually not. It's so ludicrous
that it's funny. It's precisely what the
CBS News guy just said to him. Well,
clearly you're a Jew hater. You're an
anti-semite.
And Massie is the perfect foil for this
because he sincerely isn't. He doesn't
even fully understand what the guy's
talking about. No, I just don't think we
should send money to a foreign country.
They're mad at Massie. Why?
One Republican out of 217 who hasn't
taken money from the Israeli lobby. Why
are they so mad at him? Why was it so
important for the Israeli lobby to spend
tens of millions of dollars to crush
this guy?
He wasn't stopping really the status quo
in any way. He did help get some of the
Epstein files, some of the Epstein files
released, and God bless him for that. He
tried his hardest, but one man against
216 other members of his party is not
going to get very far by definition. So
why don't leave him alone? Why force the
issue? Why are they so mad at this guy?
Why is Trump so mad at him? Why is
Miriam Mlesson so mad?
And of course the answer is because
Thomas Massie was willing to say out
loud that there is an Israel lobby.
There is a foreign country whose
supporters in the United States in
positions of prominence are making
campaign contributions purely on the
basis of what's good for a foreign
country. Their loyalty is not to the
United States. It's to a foreign
country.
Well, that's just true. It's just a
fact. But you can't say that. Why can't
you say it? Well, because it's true.
That's why. If it was a lie, if you were
claiming the earth was flat, they'd
ignore you. But be precisely because it
is true. It's the truest thing. In fact,
it's the it's the definitive fact in
American politics. You're not allowed to
say it. And he did. Now, why do we say
that's true? Isn't that an anti-Semitic
conspiracy theory?
Well, I don't know. Let's go to the
Israeli press, which for all its many
faults is a little bit more honest. It's
a little bit less constipated
in its use of language. They can kind of
say things out loud cuz who's watching?
Perets, the traditionally liberal paper
in Israel, publishes an English language
edition. And here was its headline
yesterday. Look at this. There it is.
The most consequential Republican
primary for Israel
is happening in Kentucky. Now, why would
the Republican primary in the fourth
district of the Commonwealth of
Kentucky, a place doubtless most
Israelis had never visited or can
locate? Why would that be so important
for Israel?
Well, because lots of things they tell
you were not true are entirely true.
First among them is Israel could not
exist without the United States in its
present form. Its ambitions would be at
best vastly cretailed
because everything outside its borders
that Israel does is done with American
tax dollars and with the backs stop of
the lives of American servicemen.
So without that, the Greater Israel
project is done. Israel can exist in its
48 borders, maybe. It probably can't
hold on to its 67 borders, which is to
say Gaza, West Bank, it's going to be a
slog
because the United States makes that
possible. Israel's expansion is paid for
and guaranteed by the United States
taxpayer. And anyone who says that out
loud, that is absolutely true. There's
nothing more true in global politics
than that. But anyone who says it
reveals the game and must be destroyed.
And that's why even in Israel, they know
that beating Thomas Massie
is priority number one. But on its face,
that sounds like an anti-semitic
conspiracy theory.
A Republican primary in a minor
Republican state, not even a state, a
commonwealth, whatever that is, is being
orchestrated from Israel with Israel's
interests in mind, not America's
interest. What are you, a Nazi?
Not in Israel. You're not if you say
that. Because it's true. And they said
it.
So Massie says, "Well, it's Apac, the
Republican Jewish Coalition. They're the
ones opposing me. It's not a ground
swell of support from within
the district for my opponent Ed,
whatever his name is. Gaulrin or Gaul.
No one even knows how to pronounce his
name. He's not a I mean, is he a real
person? I don't know. His only real
meaningful campaign pledge is to bring
back the draft. The draft
people are in support of a draft. How
many people of draft age are in support
of a draft? None.
Why would you want a draft? Do the Joint
Chiefs want a draft? Would it make the
military better if we had a draft? Why
would we have a draft?
When entire wars are fought with drones,
do we need a draft? Ed Gaulrin or Golrin
or whatever this composite figure is
calling himself wants a draft. Can you
think of a more totalitarian
and less popular position for any person
running for office to take than I want a
draft? Vote for me and I will take your
child and send him to go die for Israel.
Is that actually a campaign pledge? He
made that pledge.
So Massiey's point is this guy who
refused to have a single debate with the
incumbent, not one, who has no obvious
support in the district, this guy only
has a chance because Apac,
from whom I've never taken a dollar, the
only Republican who's never taken money
from Apac, Apac is on his side. That's
Thomas Massiey's position to which CBS
News and Mark Levvin and all the other
dumb people and MAGA World that's
anti-semitic.
Really? Now let's see what Apac has to
say about it. Minutes after Massie was
declared the loser. Apac. Apac
the dreaded Apac whose name we're not
allowed to say, Apac sent out this tweet
in public on Twitter. Here's what they
said. We're quoting, "ProIsrael
Americans are proud to help defeat
anti-Israeli candidates. Being
pro-Israel is good policy and good
politics."
And good politics exclamation point. In
other words, the second Massie loses,
Apac announces, "We did it. We did it.
We bumped this guy off. He criticized
us. We're literally a an unregistered
foreign lobby who exists not to help the
United States or its citizens, but a
foreign country that couldn't exist
without our aid anyway, whose aims are
so far from ours that they are hurting
us gravely,
whose population may love Trump, but in
a lot of ways hate Christian Americans.
That's why they're spitting on nuns.
That country doesn't like this member of
Congress. Therefore, we're going to take
him out. And by the way, we did.
Oh,
so in other words, Apac is saying out
loud something that if you said out loud
might get you fired from your job or
investigated by the Trump DOJ, which by
the way has just announced a multi-ity
anti-anti-semitism tour led by Leo
Terrell,
the chief of anti-semitism enforcement
or something, a Fox News contributor
with, I think, 11 IRS leans against him
over more than 10 years. There's a guy
who's sort of wonder like how'd you get
into federal service if you have a
problem paying federal taxes. We'll
leave that between him and the IRS.
Maybe he'll get his own exemption from
IRS audits. We'll see. But that guy is
leading a tour of the United States to
try and do something with the impromoder
of the Department of Justice, which is
to say people with guns about the most
pressing problem in this nation, which
is criticism of Israel. Because yes,
criticism of Israel is now officially
defined as anti-semitism.
So when they tell you you're committing
anti-semitism,
what they're saying is you're critical
of a foreign nation and that's now a
crime.
And rather than explain to you why it's
so important and so good for you and the
grandchildren you hope to have to
support Israel, like you should get on
board. This a great deal. Israel's
awesome. Here's how they help us. Here's
why you should be all in in Israel.
Here's why the thousands of children
they've murdered in Gaza deserve to be
killed. Cuz they were future terrorists.
you know, make your case. If you have a
case, make it. Tell us what you think.
Instead of doing that, the Trump
administration
is taking the position that noticing is
hate. Just noticing it. That's hate.
It's anti-semitism. It's a crime.
That's the official message from the
Department of Justice, which is using
your tax dollars to intimidate you into
shutting up about something that Apac is
bragging about publicly.
It's hard to know what this is. I mean,
clearly it's not a sincere effort to
reduce anti-semitism.
If if you're going to jin up
anti-semitism, if you're going to make
people feel bitter, if you wanted people
to blame their problems on Jews, whoever
they are, this is exactly what you would
do.
Of course. So, it's not an effort to
reduce anti-semitism. And you wouldn't
have Leo Terrell, the Fox News
contributor
with 11 IRS leans against him. That's
your public servant. Really? You
wouldn't have that guy leading a
multi-ity tour to screech at you about
how you're a bad person for not liking
Israel. And by the way, possibly a
criminal for not liking Israel. You
wouldn't attack the only truly sacred
right this country protects, which is
the freedom of speech on behalf of a
foreign country if you were trying to
eliminate anti-semitism. Of course not.
This is something else. This is a
humiliation exercise. This is designed
to let you know that there is now a cast
system in place under which skepticism
of one group is a lot more serious than
skepticism of another group. Another
word for this that was very common on
Fox News and in fact it emerged many
times from Donald Trump's mouth was
identity politics. That's identity
politics.
We should instead have politics based on
citizenship. If you're a citizen, you
are equal to me under the law. There are
no distinctions beyond that. God may
make distinctions beyond that, but we're
not God. We're a government. And in our
government, the people own the country.
They are shareholders in this
enterprise. and you treat them all the
same until proven otherwise. That's our
justice system. You can criticize anyone
you want equally. Every American citizen
is allowed to use the same words
regardless of what his parents look like
because we don't have casts cuz we're
not India.
We reject identity politics. That was
the promise. That's why BLM was wrong.
All of a sudden, you had to worship
black people like gods rather than just
treating them like friends or neighbors
or citizens or just people because
that's what they are. That's what every
person is. It's just a person. Good on a
good day, bad on a bad day, smarter,
taller, richer, poorer, shorter, fatter,
you know, different in some ways, but
fundamentally all the same and equal
under the law.
Because this country is governed
the same way heaven is governed by
universal principles. If something is
wrong, it is wrong for everyone. If
something is okay, it's okay for
everyone. We don't make those
distinctions
because when we do, it's called
corruption.
That's what corruption is. Different
rules for me than for you. But all of a
sudden, you have, led by this
administration, the one that Charlie
Kirk and I were so hopeful about in
church
that morning in January of last year,
you have the most aggressive and the
most threatening outbreak of identity
politics maybe in this country's
history.
You have the Justice Department
endorsing the idea that criticism of
foreign nation is potentially a crime.
And you have certain states banning it
like Florida under Ronda Santis. No,
that's a hate crime. you can't criticize
that country or our relationship with
it. At the very same time, the people
encouraging you to go along with this
and threatening you if you don't are
bragging that everything you're not
allowed to say is in fact true.
That's all this is. It's a way to make
it really clear Jeffrey Epstein gets to
win Powerball somehow.
His murderers walk free. We're not even
going to investigate it, but you watch
yourself. Watch yourself now. That's
exactly what's going on. But maybe the
most obvious example of what's going on
happened last night. And it wasn't just
the fact that Ed Golin or whatever the
guy's name is, who even knows who cares.
As he won, somebody, and this was cruel,
brought a video camera to his quote
victory party. Now remember, this is a
guy who just beat a seven-term
incumbent. And check the numbers on
this. It's not that easy to beat an
incumbent, a seven-term incumbent who is
wildly popular, even by the standards of
Republican states. Thomas Massie wasn't
just popular, he was wildly popular in
his district. And the election results
over the past seven terms proved that.
Look him up. So this guy, Ed, whatever
his name is, just wins. And his one
campaign promise is to draft your son
and send him to Iran, but he wins
anyway. How did he win? Well, obviously
people were just so thrilled by the idea
of a draft that they just lifted Ed
Gaulun underto their shoulders and
carried him across the finish line and
then they all streamed into the victory
hall for beers and high fives and maybe
some brz.
You imagine that must have happened.
People woke up one morning and realized
their congressman who we thought was
honest and principled and decent. A
family man whose four children love him,
who built his own home, who's the
embodiment of the America you thought
you lived in. This independent has
self-respect and reverence for God in
nature. That's what you thought of him.
And you realize, no, no, no. He's like a
liberal who's actually being supported
by the jihadis who's like some kind of
sex criminal because that's what they
told you. We need Ed Gun, the draft guy.
and we're thrilled he got it. Well,
let's take a look. Let's take a peek at
what election HQ last night at Ed's
victory party actually looked like.
covered a lot of victory parties in my
life. A lot more than 10. And some lost
parties, too.
That's the weirdest thing I've ever
seen. There's no one there. What
percentage of the people in that room
know Ed Gaul or know are related to him?
Are his neighbors were paid to be there?
We don't know the answer. There's nobody
there.
So, how' this guy win? Will he won on
mail in ballots? And we'll sort of leave
it to online sleuths to determine
whether that's legitimate or not. Who
knows? Cuz if you're willing to pour
tens of millions of dollars into a
Republican primary in the fourth
district of Kentucky, you're probably
willing to do whatever it takes. And
maybe they did. We don't know that. Not
alleging it.
But we do know that's not what democracy
looks like.
Democracy is the process by which people
express their will by which they say
this is how we want our country to be
run because it's our country. It doesn't
belong to Mary Mson or Paul Singer or
Israel or big pharma for that matter or
any other small group of rich people.
It's not the play thing of billionaires.
This doesn't belong to the oligarchs. It
belongs to us. And here's what we want.
and you can't ignore us because we're
the owners here and this is shareholders
meeting and we're voting.
And when people win in a race like this,
there's evidence of it. And that
evidence takes very familiar forms.
Enthusiasm,
joy, and just sheer numbers. Like people
show up, they can't believe it. We beat
the evil Thomas Massie with his jihadi
backers. This is a blow against Islamic
jihad. whatever that is,
Islamic Shihad, which along with Hamas
is one of the big problems in the fourth
district of Kentucky. They've been very,
very concerned about Islamic jihad and
Hamas and Hisbullah
for a long time in Covington. But
anyway, there was no such display. And
so it makes you wonder this election
itself, was it
another part of the humiliation ritual?
Was it a way of saying to the rest of
us? People who sort of believed in
democracy. It's all fake. We can get a
guy whose last name we can't pronounce
elected on a platform everybody in
America hates because we can. Cuz we're
billionaires and you're not. And of
course, our priorities are not aligned
with yours. In fact, we hate your
priorities and we hate you. We're going
to do this to you anyway. Even in
Kentucky, we can do it. It's possible
that's the message they were sending.
Pretty certain, actually.
So, on one level, this is the saddest
moment in a long time. It's not just the
death of Thomas Massiey's immediate
political career, which may be
resurrected. One never knows. It's
obviously the death of MAGA, whatever
that was. But it's also, of course, the
end of the Republican party as we
thought we knew it. The Republican party
of right now bears absolutely no
resemblance to the Republican party we
thought we had just elected less than a
year and a half ago. None at all. Its
parties are completely different.
its slogans are completely different. It
is not the same thing. And maybe there's
a working majority somewhere of people
who support the new priorities of the
Republican party, but the question would
be where is that? Herets's readers
clearly do. They think that was the most
important race in America. Amazing that
they were following it. But in this
country,
nobody supports this. Nobody does.
And so
that's not all bad. And it's not bad
because the one thing we know is that
nothing will be the same after this.
This is too much. They went too far.
This is a victory, but it's likely a
pirick victory actually
because we now know because it's been
confirmed how the system actually works.
And no, it's not a democratic system. It
bears no resemblance to a democratic
system at all. a small number of people
who are more concerned about a foreign
country than our country decide who gets
elected. No, that's not a hateful
conspiracy theory. That's a demonstrable
fact that they admit.
So, it's on the basis of that that we
can proceed. And by that, I mean the
truth. That's the truth. What people
whispered about those crazies on the
internet has now been proven for
everyone to see. Nothing will ever be
the same again.
And you got to think it's going to be a
little better because there will be
actual reform. We have gone too far.
And so whatever comes next, whether it's
in the Republican party or outside it,
is likely to be much more honest and
direct and less ashamed,
much more willing to tell the truth, as
uncomfortable as it may make some
people, because the truth is always
worth telling, always. And a politics
based on anything but the truth is
always poisonous.
So yes, this is a low point. Is it the
end point? Not at all. It's the
beginning. Maybe have something great.
When was the last time you heard someone
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Rich Barers has been following this for
a long time, not as a candidate, but as
a pollster, as someone who is constantly
measuring what people want and think.
He's on the Republican side. We think
he's really insightful. There not many
pollsters we'd trust or ever want to
talk to, but he's at the top of the
list. And he joins us now. Rich, you
there?
>> I'm here. Thanks for having me, Tucker.
>> Thanks. Thanks so much for doing this.
So, that's my assessment of what we just
saw. I think it's it's obvious that
Massie would not have lost without the
Republican Jewish Coalition and a few
neocon billionaires weighing in on
behalf of a foreign country. Do you
think that's a fair read?
>> Uh, 100%. I mean, just so the folks at
home understand, we've never seen
anything like you may have heard that
this was the most expensive primary in
history, but to give people at home an
idea, primaries on the Republican side,
uh, in a district like this, you might
spend a half, you may spend 500,000,
maybe it goes to 2 million. Tucker, we
have never seen anything like this. This
isn't even an expensive media market.
Kentucky 4, you have Louisville, but
this is not like a New York or
California or even some of the Florida
media markets. This was an insane amount
of money. And what does that buy you?
Uh, look, in the clip you just played,
there was a guy uh that I that I noticed
when I saw that clip, and he's waving
around a white sign with a Sharpie
marker written lower prices. He probably
has no idea that in one of the few
appearances that his candidate made, he
was asked about gas prices in the Iran
war, and he flatly said the Iran war was
worth spiking gas prices. So, I look,
that's what $35 million buys you. Uh
they drove up turnout, guys. This wasn't
about Apac. It it wasn't a referendum on
Apac. You know, this just to give people
an idea what I mean by that. Apac will
never run ads. They didn't do it in the
the Chicago suburbs where they targeted
a Democrat who was anti-war and
anti-forign aid. You will never hear the
ad. And then at the end of the ad, it
says this message was paid for by the
American right Apac. They're very good
at running these through other party
groups and making the election about
something else. And they made this
election about loyalty to Trump. Is he
loyal enough to Trump? Is he loyal
enough to the party? And some of the
questions around some of the immigration
votes and what do you do in a Republican
primary with that? You drive up turnout
with boomers. And that is the lesson
here, Tucker. Uh Thomas Massie was
clobbering Ed Grin with millennials 3 to
one. 3 to one. Not 2 to one, not one and
a half to one. Younger people need to
vote and Republicans need to get it
through their heads right now. You use
the word I've been using. This was a
pirick victory. Congratulations. You
spent $35 million you needed in November
to get rid of the last conservative uh
in the US House of Representatives to
replace him with a neocon that the
American people rejected 20 years ago
and didn't elect Republicans again until
Donald Trump's brand of America first
came around. This is a pirick victory
that they'll suffer for later. They've
got to know that
>> they do. Okay. Do Okay. So do they I
mean this is the end of the Republican
party. Not just that I support it. I
would never ever I it's immoral to
support this in my opinion but anti-free
speech prokilling. I mean it's grotesque
in every way. But it's also the end of
the Republican party that we had in the
beginning of something new and deeply
unpopular. They got to know that. They
do. And I'm just going to tell a story.
I won't you know I won't blow them up
but you know being a pollster.
Unfortunately, I get bombarded by, you
know, by uh donors and people who want
to pick my brain because they think
they're privileged or entitled to that
phone call. Uh but last night in having
uh several conversations, three of them
flatly told me when I was making the
argument that okay, good job. You did it
$35 million to win by nine points. Now,
compare that to when Donald Trump
targeted Liz Cheney, folks, who was
really a rhino, who was really a neocon,
who really supported Never- Ending War.
Liz Arrington barely needed that amount
of money and she thrashed Liz Cheney by
more than 30 points. It was the biggest
election defeat for any sitting
incumbent in history and it didn't
require 35 million votes. So you beat
him, you sent him home. He's going to
take 5% of his vote with him.
Libertarians are going to be mad.
They're going to do what they did to
Republicans in 18, which is run
candidates, independents and
libertarians, pulling one and a half
here, two and a two and a half there,
costing Republicans seats because there
will be races that close. That third
party vote share actually cost them that
race. And for what? And the answer
basically was, we don't care about
November. Stop worrying about November.
That's something we can worry about
later. The pendulum swings down the
road. This is what I got out of it and
you said it and you you addressed it in
your monologue. They really do feel that
Thomas Massie or anyone who opposes
foreign aid who doesn't support
unfettered give their unfettered support
to Israel and their ventures in the
Middle East. They cannot separate that
from anti-semitism. They think that
that's they're anti-semites in secret
and they're couching couching, you know,
that that anti-semitism in some phony
philosophy that they can't, you know,
vote for foreign spending. And over the
course of 45 minutes, it dawned on me
they believe this. They really do
believe it. At first, for a long time, I
thought it was just junk. And it was
this typical almost left-wing kind of
use of how you expand the definition to
impose a label on somebody like the left
does with racism and xenophobia. Um,
which causes a backlash because when you
do that, you actually wind up creating
more of what you're trying to put down.
Right? If you're constantly calling
somebody anti-semitic for having a
difference in opinion over foreign
policy, you're you're almost assuredly
going to create more anti-semitism. Uh,
which by the way, Mark Levin called me
an anti-semite for pointing out and it's
insane. But they and I thought that, you
know, maybe they were just being
careless and reckless by doing this. And
it really did dawn on me last night that
they believe it. They believe it.
>> Is there any I mean, if you think about
what they're defending, so they're
defending two things. One, the
proposition that it's okay to be more
loyal to a foreign country than your own
country. and two, the behavior of that
foreign country, which is not only out
of bounds and unacceptable, but I mean
what Israel has done in the last 2 and
1/2 years to people within areas it
controls, murdering women and children
by the tens of thousands. I mean book
that that will never be forgotten in
history. Is there any sense you get that
they're like ashamed of any of this? Is
there any sense of they're doing
something wrong or is it entirely like
displacement? like anyone who criticizes
or notices it, they're the real
criminals. You tell me.
>> Yeah, that's a good question. I think
the answer is no. And and the reason is
over the last year, you know, I'm a
public pollster and my job is to conduct
the research and not convey my own
opinion, but try to get people to
understand what voters are thinking and
why why they are thinking the way they
are. And over the last year, just
polling has been met with incredible
blowback. And recently, I reviewed this
internal report. It's an Israeli
government report. and basically admits
they have a massive problem in the west
particularly among younger people in
America. Is Israel's image has suffered
badly. How are they going to confront
this and how how are they going to
overcome this and still keep their
special relationship with the United
States and alliances or at least
friendly you know relations with other
western countries going through all of
these bullets. They couldn't decouple
what we were talking about either even
in the this is a government report. They
couldn't decouple it. But also, um, not
one single prescription had anything to
do with curbing Israel's behavior. And
that concerned me because I mean, yeah,
it all came down to censorship, Tucker,
right? Censorship, some form of
coercion. We're going to do this. We're
going to lean on these people. We're
going to use our friendships and
relationships here to address that group
of people. And none of it was dealing
with curbing their own behavior. And
that is from a, you know, for just
public polling point of view, that's
their problem. One of the things that
jumped out at me last year was it was
different. It was it was something we've
never measured before. Young Americans,
and when I say young, I mean under 45,
even those who identified as America
first viewed what was happening in Gaza
as a genocide. And we have never seen
that before, right? I mean, typically
the line that we all hear like the Fox
News lines, the human shields, you know,
the the normal stuff that worked for a
very long time on people. I think
younger people are less they're a less
mythbelieving society. I don't think
they are uh than boomers for instance
and they're going to have to confront
that reality. They just can't steamroll
it because the more they try to
steamroll over these people and and
their belief that they're entitled to
their opinion, the more backlash they're
going to get. And the they they
acknowledge they had this issue with the
left. But here's what I think that
they're missing on from what is coming
from the right now. I think people don't
fully appreciate, especially millennial
men who supported Donald Trump,
generation uh Z men who supported Donald
Trump, they don't appreciate that these
voters, many of them never voted. They
have no vote history or very little vote
history, came out for Donald Trump in 24
because they believe that he and JD
Vance were really their last chance.
Their last chance at getting to write
the ship in the country and to have a
future that people who live before them
had, right? Their inheritance was being
squandered. the economy is just garbage.
It cost much to live. There's no point
to go to school. Nobody is appreciating
that. They have this point of view and
now they look for better for worse, fair
or not, they look at Israel
with a little bit of contempt now
because they feel like they derailed
their presidency. They kind of hijacked
it and they're going to whether you
agree with that or not is kind of irre
irrelevant. that's how they feel and if
you don't address it it's just going to
blow up in your face because 10 years
from now the you know the first boomers
turned 80 this year Tucker 10 years from
now if Republicans can't put together a
coalition like the one that supports
Thomas Massie you're not going to win a
general election cost of living is
already making it hard to live here and
it's not getting any better
unfortunately it's likely to get worse
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>> So I mean that's so it what you're
saying and I'm not denigrating in any
way. I think it's really smart but it's
also basically a conclusion that anyone
who's paying any attention at all would
come to. You don't have to be a pollster
or fluent in math.
>> Right. I mean no I I think it's kind of
self-evident what what you just said and
I'm grateful that you said it. So anyone
who is pushing the party into a series
of positions that the public hates is by
definition trying to destroy the party.
No. Yeah. This is the this is the AB
choice I was trying to convey to people
uh before the Iran war for instance
which is you you have to decide and if
you're from the right if you're of the
right you'll understand this better
obviously. If you thought going into
2024 Democrats were the existential
threat to the country, lawfare, they
were locking up a former president, he
literally had to win in order to ensure
he wouldn't spend potentially the rest
of his life in jail. I mean, we crossed
the Rubicon, Tucker, before.
>> And if you truly believe that, then you
would nothing nothing would come before
that. the Iran war could crack the
coalition up, could break up the
Republican party, and it just isn't
worth it, right? Because if you go back
to Democratic control, we're all in
danger. We're literally in danger. So,
if you believe that line of argument,
which I believe was a valid argument, I
think that's why Donald a big part of
why Donald Trump was elected kind of
pretty easily, right, compared to 16. If
you believe that, then there's really no
way to square how you would put that at
risk for a foreign the the interest of a
foreign nation. There really there's no
way to to put that together. You're
either prioritizing the viability, the
coalition health to make sure that you
stay in power or you're prioritizing
something else. And if you're doing
that, then yeah, I mean, what we have to
conclude that you're just trying to
break up the party. And honestly, in the
conversation I was talking about last
night, the truth is, and I think a lot
of people at home don't know this, the
truth is a lot of these people donate to
Democrats anyway. Their issue is not
whether or not Republicans control the
House or the White House. They really
don't care, guys, as long as they have a
majority, bipartisan majority that
preserves the foreign policy, uh, you
know, water spet, you know, uh, and
preserves the special relationship, then
they're good. That's their That's their
aim. They don't really care about the
viability of the Republican party. They
just don't
>> because because they don't care about
the country, of course. I mean, by
definition, if if your top issue is
Israel, you should have no authority in
the United States because you're by
definition disloyal to the United
States. I mean, I I don't I it just
seems like a definitional fact. Um, so I
just So, let me ask I've watched
politicians, you know, work through
their campaign messages and there's a
keen attention to to polling and to
popularity of the message. What should
our message be? How many people will
agree with this? Like you've obviously
spent your life with this, so you know
better than I. How many people would you
guess in the United States are for in
order covering up the Epstein files,
the draft?
>> Yeah.
>> And unlimited support for what Israel is
doing in Gaza?
You know, the best way to answer that is
to tell you that we have pulled
different messages that have come out
of, you know, the different we know some
of them have presidential aspirations
and we know what the messages are going
to be going into the going into the
midterms. And one of them was
articulated very well on the Democratic
side by John Oaf. And we just, you know,
we simply ask people, look, we're going
to read you a statement from somebody.
We're not going to tell you who it is,
but we want you to tell us whether you
agree or disagree with this. Uh the
Republican the typical Republican line
one came from Trump one came from Rubio
got about 53% uh you know agreement
across the board. The Democratic one was
from John Oaf and it got over 80%
agreement including 40 a little bit more
42% of Republicans which directly said
you know Trump promised to expose the ex
Epstein class instead he covered for
them. It was a speech that you know
circulated a lot on social media.
Nobody. And I think this goes to the
generational divide that we're dealing
with in this country. And the answer to
a lot of people who are upset over what
happened last night is that young people
have to vote. You're leaving, especially
on the Republican side, you're
essentially leaving your the direction
of that your party's going to go. You're
leaving it up to a group of people that
is a minority in their own generational
cohort. And what I mean by that is that
rep Yeah. Republican boomers are what we
call over here the Fox Boomer. I'm not
trying to insult anybody. It's just that
it obviously makes up so so clearly what
you know who these people are. The Fox
Boomer Con is not even a a majority of
boomers themselves. And Boomers really
we can split up into two groups. And the
older Boomer element particularly is the
one that uh votes so heavily in
Republican primaries. The GRIN campaign,
which was really the Trump people, did a
great job getting them out and expanding
the electorate with those people. Uh the
problem is you know rep younger people
until they have families they don't
really ratchet up their primary vote
history and it is a simple answer to
people who are you know feeling as I
heard from uh countless people last
night vote. You should have just voted.
You have the power. The boomers are are
kind of on their way out. I'm trying to
be mean here. I'm just saying they've
they've had their electoral dominance
for years now. I mentioned before the
first of them turned 80. Republicans
better realize millennials will soon be
the dominant voting group sooner than
people expect. But as of right now, Gen
X and millennials alone could have a
real impact on the direction of who gets
nominated in these parties. And
unfortunately, they just don't vote.
Tucker, how do you think? Well,
actually, before I ask you about what's
going to happen in the future, the
question of the draft, am I imagining
this or are people suddenly talking
about this? The neocons seem anxious to
have a draft. All of a sudden, the White
House through its spokesman denied
that they had ruled it out. Sorry for
the double negative. Basically, the
question was, "Are you going to try to
institute a draft?" And the response
was, "We're not going to answer that
question. We're thinking about it." Am I
Am I being paranoid? I mean, Golrren
just ran on a draft. What is the draft?
Where's that coming from?
>> Honestly,
nothing. There's a nothing can make you
paranoid these days. Every time you
think we've seen the last of it or we've
seen the worst of it or we're at the end
of the absurdity, um we we get something
else. You know, every day it seems, you
know, the vote and this is the voters,
too. This is voter sentiment. Every day
they wake up with something new that
they just cannot believe that would ever
happen under Donald Trump. So, I mean, I
just wouldn't put I I would I would hate
to tell you tell you that I spoke to
this person or that person. They told
me, "Yeah, don't worry about it. that's
just you know bloiating or people
speaking off the cuff uh because I have
but then I've had these experiences in
the last year with other issues and then
two months later it becomes a serious
issue. Amnesty is one of them by the
way. You you'd never think of something
like that happening even before Trump
was elected or even in Trump's first
term. It just seemed unthinkable like he
wouldn't do it. Uh and now here we are
and it's a very serious push. I mean, I
think the president's with somebody
who's if and not Maria Salazar, Michael
has to be one of the most pro- amnesty
Republicans in the House of
Representatives. He's with him today.
>> Well, the neocons love amnesty because
the point is not simply to help Israel,
but to destroy the United States. And
Mike Lawler is all in on destroying the
United States. There's no question about
that.
>> Um, so what is the public's view of the
war in Iran? This thing has always been
unpopular. This is one of the more, you
know, headscratching isn't even a a
strong enough term, but this is
something that's left me dumbfounded. We
have never seen a president try to start
a war or or start one without selling it
to the public first. I mean, folks, I
mean, I know I'm I'm 44. You know how
long Herbert Walker Bush I mean, he lied
to do it, but do you know how long he
took to sell the um the first Gulf War
to the United uh to the people in the
United States? We heard about babies
being thrown out of uh incubators. Of
course, that was a total charade, but at
least they put the charade on. Even
George Bush himself, you know, after
9/11, Tucker, they didn't just go into
Iraq. We were in Afghanistan. They had
the buildup. They used it as a pretext
and George Bush really made his case.
This was and those, by the way, those
conflicts became popular. This thing
never became popular and the president
didn't even try to sell it. Um, the
closest we we got, there's always a
rally around the flag effect where the
president's voters want to support what
he's doing. Uh so even if they don't
really support it, they'll temporarily
say, "Yeah, I kind of I'm with them on
this." We couldn't get it any closer to
a pose plus 9. The thing started at, you
know, 21% support, 70% opposition, and
it's almost right back to there now. The
next time we pull it, which is soon,
it's going to be in 2 days. I I bet it's
back to that level or maybe even worse
because now we've seen gas prices and
some of the other things that the
American public really didn't want. And
this is this is gas prices, casualties.
We did ask them about this before the
war kicked off. Would you be willing uh
you know to tolerate the pain at the
pump? Would you be willing to tolerate 0
to 5,000, 5,000 to 10,000 casualties? I
mean, the answer was zero casualties and
no pain at the pump. It just wasn't a
priority. And I think again for people
who say, well, you had they had to stop
him getting the you know, getting the
nuclear program back off the ground. I
mean guys, the the bottom line is people
are tired of this because they're not
seeing their own needs at home being
met. It's simple a you know Maslo
hierarchy of needs kind of thing. I mean
people can't meet their basic needs uh
let alone anywhere else up the pyramid.
If they can't meet their basic needs
they're not going to care about the
needs of other nations. And they may say
and may it might be you could play a
game with a poll on how you were to
question Tucker, but Americans will
never prioritize their own needs over
some the needs of another country. I
mean, you know, they'll never put the
needs of another country over their own
needs is what I meant to say. Things
around the world are moving so fast
right now, it's impossible to keep up
with all of the changes. But we do know
that when those changes happen, markets
change, too. And nothing changes faster
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and silver. it just shifts in an instant
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>> Well, it was sold the president sold it
not I I don't think in a straightforward
way by saying Israel wants us, we have
to help Israel. He sold it by saying
Iran can't have a nuclear weapon and
that's the most important thing. Do you
remember any polling this winter in
January or February that showed excuse
me fear of Iran getting a nuclear weapon
at the top of voter concerns? Were
people really worried about that?
>> No. I mean we do rank distribution for
most important issues weekly which is
different than just simply asking which
is your most important voting issue. And
the reason we do it like that is because
we want people to rank them so we can
see, you know, sometimes people have
secondary and tertiary issues that they
vote on. They're not just voting on one
issue all the time. Uh, foreign policy
hasn't crept above seventh place.
Trump's entire term, we actually
established the White House focus
tracker, which since CBS News, who you
ran before, they tried to copy and Wall
Street Journal tried to copy it once or
twice, too. But we ask people whether or
not they think the Trump administration
is too focused on foreign policy, not
enough on domestic. Vice versa, maybe
they're too focused on domestic, not
enough on foreign policy, and then
whether or not they're striking the
right balance. That tracker has been 60
north of 60% on the side of too focused
on foreign policy, not enough on
domestic for the better part of now two
and a half months. But it has always
been majority feeling that he is too
distracted with foreign policy.
So, what does this mean for the next two
big election cycles, the midterms and
the general in two years?
>> Yeah, as of right now, Republicans are
going to get creamed. I mean, they're
just anyone saying this just, you know,
saying otherwise is just gaslighting or
glazing you out there. Uh the New York
Times poll that came out the other day
that mirrors our polling almost
perfectly. Generic ballot is 11 points,
folks. That's historic. That's worse
than 2018. Republicans redistricted,
which is good. uh they came out on top
in the redistricting war helped buffer
against some of those losses. But when
you're talking about leads like 10 11
points, you're talking about Trump
districts that are 10, you know, Trump
plus 10, Trump plus 11, we're way
outside of whether or not you could win
or hold battleground districts. You have
to make sure that you don't lose any
that are within the swing. And that
always happens. There are always
districts that nobody sees coming and
then so and so gets unseated. That
always happens. Uh, this looks like a
blood bath right now, Tucker. It does.
And the sad part about it is it was
fixable. If you look at our generic
ballot trend, you'll see it. Republicans
had a lead since I believe it was
mid2021.
They had a lead on the generic ballot
and didn't lose it until until July of
2025. What happened in July of 2025?
>> Epstein.
>> And then and then followed by bombing
bombing the three nuclear sites in Iran.
I've been calling that like a almost
like a two-piece, a one-two combo, right
to the chin and MAGA. That's what put
MAGA down. I mean, it really isn't any
deeper, more difficult than that. People
elected Donald Trump to focus on their
domestic needs, to focus on, you know,
the those broken promises and those uh
betrayals that he said in his own
inauguration, not, you know, to to re to
remedy that, to fix that, to make it
right, uh to be their retribution, to
use his own words. They they weren't
talking about foreign policy
retributions. They were talking about
squaring things at home. And the reason
the Epstein issue hurt so bad. Um I
think he's minor correction in his
strategy wouldn't even have damaged him
that much. I think people would have
given him a lot of grace. But people who
don't understand why it hurt him don't
understand that Epstein was a symbol. He
was a proxy of that ruling class that
Trump ran against. And it's not just a
ruling class that rigs the system. and
you know gains it for their own gain.
It's a it's a class that rigs it, gains
it for their own gain at their expense.
So they wanted these people punished and
held to account and this was basically
one of the worst things he could have
done. And from that on to pivoting to
foreign policy, it was just more than
base could take. Tucker,
>> and it revealed a side of Trump. I mean,
he was so touchy about Epstein. And I
and I do suspect it has to do with the
way Epstein died during Trump's first
term, which everyone has forgotten. Um,
but I he revealed when pushed during
famously during that cabinet meeting and
someone asked him a question about
Epstein and he he attacked his own
voters on it. Like if if you're
interested in Epstein, you're a bad
person. You're part of a Democrat hoax
or something like that. And I think
people who really like Trump were stung
by that. Why is he attacking me? I just
want to end corruption in Washington.
Like what was that?
>> When that happened, I instantly thought
back to Rush Limba and he repeated it in
one of his last might have been his very
last broadcast where he explained that
no matter what the media does to Donald
Trump, no matter what the FBI does to
Donald Trump, it doesn't matter. It
cannot be an external force. They will
never break the bond that Donald Trump
has with his voters. And the more they
attack him, the stronger the bond will
get. The only way you can break the bond
is if Donald Trump himself breaks the
bond. And when he sent that out, Tucker,
I just I I felt it. I just I I've been
tracking the Trump coalition um since
the day he gave his CPAC speech and
said, "I'm serious about running. I
can't I can't let another Bush or
another Clinton get in the White House
cuz we're doomed." He said at a CPAC
event, which didn't you he wasn't as
popular as he was now. At that moment, I
knew the guy was was for real and we put
him in our tracker for the Republican
primary. I'd never forget it. Uh but
from that point on, we've been studying
that coalition since then. That hurt
them. It did. It disappointed a lot of
them. And I know a lot of his most
ardent supporters still they'll they'll
argue against this. I mean, this is my
job. I do this every single day. All I
do every day is talk to voters. MAGA has
not only split. The question of whether
it is split is a done question. It has
fractured and it has transformed. It's
split, shrunk, and transformed. And we
put this up the other day. I mean, it
couldn't have illustrated it better.
Going into November 2024, voters who
were above the age of uh 65 actually
identified more as a traditional
Republican and not a MAGA Republican. If
you were below 65,
65, and you were a Republican, you
majority identified as either America
first or MAGA. We usually put them
together and then ask we'll force people
to pick one over the other. Um if you
were a millennial 30 to 45 years old you
were 66%
identifying as MAGA. That is now around
40%. If you were 18 to 29 it was like 56
and now it's 36. If you're 65 again
never got to majority it's a majority
now. And a traditional Republican is
about 45. So what happened? It got
older. They got older and the younger
voters who really had so much writing on
this thing um they're out. They're out.
>> I didn't know older people were so
bloodthirsty. Did you?
>> Uh you know what I think it comes down
to? Especially with when you study the
Boomer generation, they a lot of people
split them into two. And the reason is
because the the Jones Boomers gen, you
know, which is uh there's Boomer one,
Boomer two. The Jones avoided the draft
and not by their by choice. It's just
their birth year. I think the other
generation that was forced to deal with
the war. Um they were not they were not
brought up in an environment like us.
You got your news from the mainstream
media. There was no way to doublech
checkck it. There was no online social
media podcast. You know, maybe there was
radio here of course, but it wasn't like
it is now. They are still very
institutional. I think that's the word.
Uh that's probably the fairest word. Um
they were the ones during Trump's first
term. Ironically, guys, they were the
ones who more were more likely to
believe the collusion hoax because in
their minds, they're thinking, "Well,
Fox wouldn't be running this if there
wasn't some truth to this." Like, Fox
wouldn't lie to us like this. The rest
of the country remembers 9/11. The rest
of the country, you know, millennials,
my generation, is is a great example. We
remember being told there were WMDs,
right? We remember uh COVID, by the way,
that hurt us greatly. I mean, there was
not, you know, there was health risks
for the older generations, but there
weren't economic risks. So, we're much
more sensitive to whether or not
institutions are lying to us or not. And
I think they're just, you know, more
more trusting. And unfortunately, that
leads to more susceptibility for like
war propaganda, which is one of the
hardest propaganda, you know, forms of
propaganda to resist. They are much more
susceptible to it.
Where does this leave people who voted
for Trump in 2024? The the huge number
of people who never voted who really
bought the promise that he would put the
country first and their concerns above
those of Israel or or anyone else
Epstein's friends like who they can't
are they going to really vote for the
Democratic party which hates white
people as like a foundational belief. I
mean they say they do so I believe them.
No, but they can't vote for the
Republican party, which obviously shares
none of their views at all. Like, is
there room for a new party for them?
>> I I increasingly we're going to have to
start talking about that because the
people who did the people who have voted
before, but they were maybe low
propensity. They voted once or twice.
Remember 10X, right, for instance? The
entire point of that was to get people
in Michigan and the rest belt who don't
really vote out to vote. Those people
will just stay home. they'll go back to
having low propensity vote history and
they just won't vote. The people who are
firsttime voters, especially if they're
younger and they have their lives ahead
of them. Um they're b I mean the word to
describe how they feel right now is
basically apopleleactic. It's not really
anger, it's more disappointment. Um and
I that typically does lead to people
staying home, but they're go many of
them will participate in the midterms. I
just don't think they will. But in they
have to figure out what they're going to
do in the next general election. I think
it's too early now, but I think at this
point in our history, we have other
examples to go back to and rely on. The
last time there was a betrayal of this
magnitude, it was read my lips, no new
taxes. And instead, he raised taxes and
started what? A war, right? Uh and that
led to the fracturing of his coalition
into the Ross Perau coalition, which put
the Republican party in the wilderness
in the dark ages, the political dark
ages for 8 years. And it was only until
George W. Bush came in tw in 2000, beat
John McCain, who was your textbook
rhino, foreign policy hulk. He beat John
McCain for that primary running on what?
Not on not on post 911 policy. He ran
on, you know, we can't be the policemen
of the world. He re rebranded
conservatism, compassionate
conservatism. That's what it took. So
typically, historically, when we do see
something like this, it's very very
damaging to the to that party in power.
It just seems like there's such
alignment on foreign policy and
economics between the Republican and
Democratic parties and and I I mean you
haven't seen you said the war is so
unpopular, but
>> you haven't seen any mass protests
against it. Mass protests are typically
funded by left-wing nonprofits and
they're not funding anti-war pro
protests right now. So that's kind of
proof to me that this war was, you know,
every bit as favored by Chuck Schumer as
it was
by Donald Trump. So like that's not an
option, right?
>> Yeah. I think in the short term everyone
should probably prepare themselves for,
you know, the whatever you want to call
it, the uni party, the you know the war
bipartisan war party, we should prepare
for them to win in the short term. If
younger voters aren't going to vote,
especially in primaries and midterms,
we'll be left with, you know, two to
four years of that being almost
inevitable. But this is what I would
tell people who are feeling, you know,
grim out there. It's only a matter of
time. Uh this is something that the the
Israel first crowd just wants to deny
and pretend is isn't reality. The age
signal is way too strong. It is only a
matter of time. Um and just yeah, I mean
that's that that's our current reality.
I It's is what it is.
>> So la last question. Thank you for your
really smart analysis. You've been
watching Trump since his famous or not
so famous CPAC speech
>> and watching him carefully and and
polling against everything he says.
>> You saw the change in Trump. Is it a
real I mean, do you perceive this as a
massive change in worldview for him? And
if you do, what do you think accounts
for it? Why did this happen?
>> You know, I think it almost doesn't
matter what his view is, you know, what
he's personally thinking. the perception
among voters,
it's it's a 180. It's completely
different. They see Donald Trump in now
May of 2026 far differently than they
saw him in November of 2024. And that's
tragic for the Republican party and
their their uh you know their
aspirations and people there's a deep
bench you know there's JD Vance there
are others you know what what's going to
happen to them? What's the smartest move
for them to make in the future? He in
2024 made Republican being a Republican
cool again. And you know, he won so many
uh more younger votes than Mitt Romney
or a Mitt Romney like candidate could
ever win. I would leave you with this
too. You know, when we're talking about
this generational divide, which is the
most important conversation I think to
have. Trump actually did one point worse
in 24 with 65 plus than he did with with
them in 2020. Yet he won rather easily
even though he lost in 2020. How did he
do that? Right? And it it's it really
the answer is really simple. He changed
how people view the Republican party. He
was the oppressed and he was the one,
you know, it's amazing how he did it.
You know, he's like an older billionaire
from Queens and yet he got Hispanic,
especially young Hispanic men to see eye
to eye with him, to think, you know
what, I can identify with this guy.
They're persecuting him. They're coming
after him. And a lot of these
communities, they know the power of the
state and the abuse of the power of the
state. They know it better than the rest
of us in many cases. And they identified
with them over it. That's all gone. I
mean, at I hate to just be so blunt
about it, but the shine's off on that
side, Tucker. It's been off. And uh at
this point, it would take a radical
pivot to even attempt to get it back.
>> Is Is there anyone who's polling well in
American politics?
Uh, no, not really. Not really. I think
in 28 Yeah. I mean, that's almost a good
thing because this has happened before
and for better or for worse, it usually
leads to dark horses on both sides of
the aisle that basically rise from the
ashes of their destroyed political
parties and become um the leaders of new
movements and try to take the country in
new directions. Sometimes it ends up
fake like a Barack Obama, right? And
sometimes it ends up a good thing. We'll
see. But at least it provides an
opportunity.
>> Rich Bear, so smart. I can't believe you
get attacked. You seem as objective as a
as a pollster can be. More even than
Frank Lunts. I'll say that. Oh, that's
something. That's a part of it. Yeah,
I'm surprised myself, but I appreciate
that.
>> Thank you for doing this.
>> Anytime, Tucker. All the best.
>> Thanks. And thank you for watching.
We'll be back next Wednesday.