Thank you for doing this. Yeah, absolutely. I have 
read Genesis like, you know, on and off most of
my life. Never noticed the first part of chapter 
6 with the Nephilim until about four years ago,
someone mentioned it to me. And in the subsequent 
years, I must have had 15 convers 25 conversations
about the Nephilim. Um, so it seemed worth 
talking to someone who understands exactly
what the Nephilim are. What are the Nephilim? 
And and am I pronouncing it correctly? I mean,
good enough. Yeah, that's I mean, yeah. I mean, 
it's it's the the the I am at the end. The the
the em is the plural in in uh Hebrew. Okay. Um 
but yeah, so there's there's a little bit of
debate about where exactly the word comes from. uh 
because uh there's it's it's not a regularly used
Hebrew word in the Hebrew Bible, which which isn't 
all that odd either. There are a lot of words that
are only used once in the Hebrew Bible. Uh but uh 
people have tried to do different things with it.
So there's a there's a Hebrew verb nefall, which 
is the verb to fall. So some people have wanted
to say, well, it's the fallen ones. But in Hebrew, 
nephilim is reflexive. So it would be the ones who
are fallen upon which is a little more difficult. 
But it seems pretty clear. Most people agree now
because there's an Aramaic word uh Nephilim ends 
with an N that just means giant. And so it seems
pretty contextually clear that this is just the 
Hebrew form of that word and this is talking about
giants. It's translated in the Greek Old Testament 
with uh yantes in in Greek which means which is
where we get the English word giant. Um but a lot 
of people when they hear the word giant now think
fifi faux fam, right? Yes. That's that's not the 
core um of the idea. So the word all of the words
used for giant not only refer to a tall person. 
Uh but uh could also be used to mean a thug or a
bully or a tyrant. Uh and the example I use is uh 
and you're old enough to remember this. When when
we went into Panama after Noriega, they're always 
referring to him as Panameanian strongman. Yes.
Always. And that wasn't talking about his awesome 
bench press. that was, you know, but he was a
dictator, right? He was an authoritarian. And 
so it's the same kind of idea, right? That that
um it's characterizing these people as that sort 
of thuggish, brutish kind of kind of character.
And referring to them as tall or referring to 
them as giants is meant to symbolize and and
suggest that. Okay. Um and so in in in Genesis 
at the beginning of Genesis uh at the beginning
of the flood story uh in Genesis 6 uh we have to 
understand that the the flood story is not a new
story when Genesis is telling it right this is 
everyone had a flood story in the ancient nearer
east. So the text of Genesis is not primarily 
claiming, oh, there was this flood. It's talking
about the flood that the original audience all 
sort of knew had happened. Yes. And and which
it did happen, I think, right? There was there 
there Yes. There is a historical event, right,
that this is referring to. But you could have 
asked anybody from Greece to Mesopotamia to
Egypt. They would have all agreed at that point 
that yes, there was this advanced civilization.
There was a flood that destroyed it. Current 
civilization is rebuilt after that. Yes. Uh
now the key one of the key differences in Genesis 
6, you already have in those first four verses is
Genesis recasts what that civilization was like. 
So in the pagan sources that pre flood world was
this golden age of for the time high technology 
right and technology in the ancient neareastern
mind included magic magic was a sort of spiritual 
technology um and all of these things happened
before the and that sort of uh losing that world 
was sort of this great tragedy and but everyone
agreed it was a more advanced world than the world 
they lived in. Yes. Yes. That there was knowledge
there that had now been mostly lost. Interesting. 
And so you find um the civilizations that grew
up after that in exhibit A of that is the the 
original Babylonian Empire. So like Hammurabi's
Yes. Babylonian Empire at the height of the Bronze 
Age. Uh people don't understand how how powerful
the global structure was in the Bronze Age. It's 
called the Bronze Age because they were smelting
bronze. They were getting the copper from Cyprus 
and the tin from what's now Afghanistan. That's
quite a distance. And bringing that together 
bronze in Iraq. Yeah. And and Hammurabi had a
preference for a particular style of sandal from 
Cree. So he was importing those. There was sort
of this global economy in the Bronze Age going 
on. And uh Hammurabi himself was from a group of
people called the Amuru who took over Mesopotamia. 
Amuru means in Aadian Westerners because they had
come from what's now Syria. And those are the 
same people who are called Amorites in the Old
Testament. Um, and we'll probably come back to 
them as we go forward, but uh, Hammurabi and
the other Babylonian emperors attributed their 
success, their ability to establish this empire
to the fact that they had access to this secret 
wisdom from before the flood. Do do we have any
sense how much earlier the flood took place? I 
what's the timeline roughly? It it's so Genesis
doesn't really give us a time. There are people 
out there who want to like add up the years and
the genealogies. That doesn't really work. Yes. 
Um because different textual traditions have
different numbers. They didn't have there aren't 
numerals in Hebrew or Greek. And so you're using
letters to code numbers. Yes. And so numbers get 
a little slippery in translation and and copying
and things. Um so a a lot of people will attribute 
it to the uh the earth changes that happened at
the end of the last ice age. Yes. So so you're 
talking roughly 10,000 years ago. Yeah. Yeah.
Um other people who are more literalist and want 
to add up those ages will say uh that it was more
like six. But from the geological record because 
there is record of a flood. Yeah. Yeah. And and
there are massive I mean there there are villages 
at the bottom of the Black Sea from that period
10,000 years ago. Um there are that are submerged. 
Yeah. Are the remains of villages. Um the the the
glacial ice that melted created a lot of large 
body of waters that were not there. Yes. And sea
levels rose a great deal. So, do we think do we 
think the flood came from melting glaciers? That
that's probably that's probably the the historical 
event that's connected to that. Yes. That that
when that ends, there's this massive shift, right? 
And and places where there used to be civilization
are now underwater, literally, right? Um and so 
yeah, all those changes happen and and there's
this massive disruption. So the villages currently 
at the bottom of the Black Sea were built during
this golden age that preceded previous to 
that. Yeah. And and we believe that that and
do we believe just as modern people that that 
civilization was more technologically advanced
than the ones that followed it? Um I mean if 
we're talking about there is some evidence sort of
bronze age. I mean you can't go completely Graham 
Hancock on this. Yeah. Um that's actually exactly
the question. Yeah. Yeah. and and Graham Hancock 
if you get into his stuff he starts getting
into some little newagy crystal right technology 
psychic technology stuff um that's a little iffy
but we know that there was definitely you look at 
places like Gobeckley and these things there was
definitely a level that was reached there was a 
collapse there was another move forward the end of
the bronze age there's another collapse yes right 
and then rebuilding after that I mean but there
are ancient structures, stone structures. So, we 
can't radiocarbonate them, but we don't even now
can't say how they were built, right? I mean, how 
would you some not exactly? Yeah. Yeah. We don't
know exactly. We don't know because there's no 
we're dealing with pre literacy. Yes. Right. So,
we're we're making conclusions in guesswork. You 
go to golette, you see the carvings of animals.
You see the way they had skulls displayed in 
certain way. You know, we could we could do
guesswork, but nobody left a left us a text to 
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big picture the pre flood civilization we think
reached some kind of apogee some high point 
technologically and and then post flood had to
rebuild right and then and then yeah and then his 
bronze age civilization they're attributing now
they're they're not saying we have some texts 
or something that survived the flood they're
saying that they're in contact with spirits who 
were active before the flood. Yes. Um and that
it's the same spirits who are now revealing this 
wisdom to them. So you have this in Genesis 6 1-4
this this Nephilim phenomena before the flood. 
And Genesis 6 says at this time and afterward,
right? And that and afterward is pointing to 
the this sort of recurring or continuing or
happening again. So the physical world changes 
but the spiritual world remains constant. Right.
Right. Um and so part of that recasting of this 
pre flood civilization, this isn't a golden age.
This is actually an age of incredible wickedness. 
Yes. Right. And evil is that the uh there are sort
of these great kings from before the flood. Uh 
you have Samrian Kings List, other texts like this
later that list the ages of the kings before the 
flood. And people people tend to think that the um
the ages of people in Genesis and the genealogies 
are kind of ridiculous with people living to be
950. Samrian Kings list you have people living 
hundreds of thousands of years right in their
uh list. So hundreds of thousands of years. Yes. 
Genesis is is reserved sort of in comparison
uh to what is that do you think? A lot of that. 
So there there's a little bit of a code to it and
this is true in in Genesis also. Um so Babylonian 
mathematics was all base 60. Our math we do base
10, right? It's decimal system. Theirs is base 60 
and the the survivors of that are our we have 60
seconds in a minute, 60 minutes in an hour, right? 
24 hours in a day. That's the the leftover from
sort of that Babylonian mathematics. Really? Yeah. 
Um I didn't know we had Babylonian minutes. So um
but yeah that that um basics you math and if you 
if you look at those ages as sets of 60 there are
sort of certain things encoded about the different 
kings and the different generations that way. Um,
nobody's totally cracked the code in Genesis, but 
to give you an example in the Sumerian Kings list,
the seventh king in the list is the 
one who creates the solar calendar,
um, seventh person in the list. And if you look at 
Genesis and the Epistle of Jude, which is like a
paragraph in the New Testament, he refers to Enoch 
as the seventh from Adam. Yes. If you go to Enoch
in the genealogies of Seth in uh Genesis, he lives 
for 365 years. So you have the number of days,
right? The solar calendar year as his age. He's 
the seventh person. The seventh person in the
Samaritan Kings list creates the solar calendar. 
So there there are some sort of coded encoded
connections going on with those with those 
numbers. Um, is there any evidence that human
lifespan was much longer at one point than it is 
now? I that's that's debated by a lot of people.
Um, certainly not I don't think anyone thinks in 
the thousands of years, right? Yes. Um, and part
of the difficulty with that is that people think 
that people hear life expectancy statistics, you
know, like you hear that in at at the beginning 
of the 20th century, the average life expectancy
in the US was 35 and people think, oh, people were 
living to 35 and then dying. It's like, well, no,
a lot of people were dying. There's a high infant 
mortality rate. There's a lot of people died
before 35. But people who made it to 35, a lot 
of them, you know, made it to 100, 120. Yeah. So
when you're when you're doing kind of archaeology 
and stuff, yeah, you find a lot of young people
because, you know, there's no antibiotics. There's 
no Right. Right. You have a very high mortality
rate. It's hard to tell how long exactly how long 
the the the truly elderly people were living,
right? Yes. Um, so but yeah, I don't think anybody 
would frame that in the thousands of years. Yes.
Um, so it's more about them saying something about 
these people and and like I said, the seventh one
has the the solar calendar. All of them have 
in the Samrian kings list have associated with
them sort of the things that they discovered. But 
the discovery is always it was revealed to them
by this spirit came and and this divine spirit 
revealed to them this and that and the other and
and it's technological things like metallurgy. Um, 
it's uh ancient technological things like sorcery
and divination and it's things about the natural 
world like the solar calendar. But the ancients
believe that technological advances came to them 
from the spiritual realm. Right. Right. That
that's where that's where it's coming from. But 
that doesn't happen at all anymore. Well, this is
so this is this is Yeah. No, this is part of this 
is part of the larger discussion and this is but
nuclear technology definitely didn't come from the 
demonic. Well, this is this is ex this is exact.
So, um within the framework of how the ancients 
understood it and this is the ancients going
all the way late antiquity and and this is frankly 
maintained in the Orthodox church. So, the mind in
the Greek word that's usually translated mine is 
noose. It's transliterated N O U S. And we're used
to thinking of our mind as our brain. Yes. And 
it's sort of this computer in our skull, right,
that churns and processes. Um, but that's not how 
they thought about it. They thought about the mind
more as a sensory organ like your eye. Yes. So, 
you'll see it referred to as the eye of the heart
or the eye of the mind. and that the mind sort 
of perceives the spiritual realm. And so ideas
are like sights or sounds or smells. They're not 
produced by the brain, right? They're not produced
by the mind. Received by the brain. They're 
received by the mind. Yes. Right. And so they come
from outside. Right. But that's the experience 
of people who are paying attention now even like
who hasn't had that. Right. And and I've never 
met anyone who had the experience of generating
a thought, right? Like what are the steps from 
not a thought to a thought, right? Um Oh, that's
such a deep point. Yeah. So, yeah. And so these 
things these things come from from outside. And
so this is in the genealogy of Cain in Genesis, 
right? It's it's Cain's descendants who invent
metallurgy uh and use it to make weapons, right? 
and who discover divination and who discover
uh music and use it for seduction and right for 
for these other things, right? Uh because and the
idea is that these these uh demonic spirits that 
are anothetical to humanity bring knowledge to
humans before they're ready for it. Right? that a 
time would come when humanity had reached a level
of spiritual maturity when they could receive this 
knowledge. Yes. And and put it to proper use. And
so it gets revealed early. Right. And that and 
that begins with the serpent in the garden. Right.
The tree of the knowledge of good and evil is not 
itself evil. Right? So Adam is created, humanity
is created innocent, right? but innocent like a 
child is innocent and created for this purpose,
created in God's image in order to grow into his 
likeness. Yes. And so a point of maturity would
have come where humanity could have had the 
knowledge of good and evil and been able to
make right uh good choices because God has the 
knowledge of good and evil. He knows what what
good and evil are. And this is the way the phrase 
the knowledge of good and evil is used throughout
the Old Testament. It's used to refer to a child 
coming to sort of what we would call the age
of accountability. Coming to the age where they 
understand good and evil, right and wrong. And so,
uh, the serpent comes and promises. The devil 
comes and promises, you know, no, God doesn't want
you to have this cuz he doesn't want you to be 
like him. Here's the shortcut. Get this knowledge
now before you're prepared for it. And it brings 
about destruction. So yes, right, the the the
atomic bomb is revealed to man. We don't use it 
as a carbon neutral source of electrical energy,
right? We use it to make a weapon. And I 
don't know if you're aware of this or not,
but Nagasaki was the most Christian city in Japan. 
I'm highly aware of it. I'm highly aware of it. As
the one of the first things it gets used for, yes, 
is to wipe out I'm fixated on it actually. wipe
out most of the Christian population of Japan. 
So they zeroed in on a church. Yeah. Yep. So um
and that infuriates people when you when you say 
it, but it's true. Yeah. So that that's a that's
a pattern, right? And and so um yeah, that 
that is the understanding. And so they're not
uh the the promise is always, oh, I'm going to 
give you the secret knowledge. This is going to
give you power. This is going to give you control. 
this is going to give you influence. This is going
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go back to the Nephilim Nephilim. Yeah. Um the
passage in Genesis referring to which is just a 
couple sentences long I think uh is explaining
why God sent the flood. Why does all of this have 
to be destroyed? Why does peak civilization peak
technology have to be destroyed? And those two 
ver can you summarize what it says? Yeah. So
it refers to the Nephilim as the men of renown. 
Men of renown. So it's referencing these kings,
these ancient kings, right? The people in charge 
who were looked at as heroes, as divine heroes by
these post flood pagans, right? Look back to 
them as these were the leaders of the golden
age. These are the great figures. These are the 
spirits we want to emulate, right? These are the
people we want to be like. um the great heroes 
and instead Genesis casts them as these evil,
wicked tyrants and thugs who are leading people 
to destruction, to chaos, right? Um Genesis says
that it gets to the point where every thought 
of humanity is always evil all the time, right?
That's Yeah. Um and uh these people are actively 
leading humanity in that direction. It's not just
coincidence, right? They're they're uh teaching 
this. They're embodying this, right? And um so
when you when you have a person who we're calling 
a a giant or a nephilim, we're talking about sort
of a fully demonized human. So in in the way the 
church has traditionally talked about sin related
to what we were just talking about with the mind, 
there's sort of these stages. Uh first stage is
thought comes into your mind, right? Yeah. You 
can't control that. Just like you're walking
down the street and you see something or hear 
something, right? Thought comes into your mind.
Um, that's not really sin yet, right? But then we 
start to entertain that thought, start to dwell
on that thought. We start to let that thought take 
root, start to let that thought turn into a plan,
right? Been there. Then we let that plan turn into 
action. Right? Yep. Then that action turns into a
habit, a repeated action over time that we fall 
into. As it becomes a habit, it starts to take
control of us. So we talk about the sins as the 
passions because they make us passive, right?
They're acting upon us at a certain point. Um, 
and you can see that with, you know, anger, right?
You reach a point where it's now driving the bus, 
right? Or lust. Yes. Or, you know, addiction,
right? All these things. So, it gets to the point 
where it takes control. And then beyond that, you
get what we call demonic possession where there is 
this sort of spirit that is now driving full-time.
You're not even really making your own decisions 
anymore. You're kind of lost to it. And then sort
of the furthest you can go in terms of being lost 
when we're talking about these Nephilim and these
giants is that spirit isn't in control of you 
anymore. You just agree with it. You're on board
with that sort of demonic spirit deliberately. 
You know, you're rejoicing and enjoying, right,
sort of the chaos and the destruction and the 
and the wickedness. And by the grace of God,
there's relatively few of those people, right? 
But they do exist. Do do you mind if I just pull
up the passage cuz I there's one part of it I want 
to ask you about which you haven't addressed which
is just how different the Nephilim are. 
I mean, they're substantively different.
They're genetically different from people. And 
I think this is the most evocative or the most
interesting, the weirdest. Um, this is I think 
this is NIV whatever it's a version of the of the
Old Testament. When human beings began to increase 
in number in the earth and daughters were born to
them, the sons of God saw that the daughters 
of humans were beautiful and they married any
of them they chose. Then the Lord said, "My 
spirit will not contend with humans forever,
for they are mortal and their days will be 120 
years." The Nephilim were on the earth in these
days and also afterward. And the sons of God went 
to the daughters of humans and had children with
them. They were the heroes of old men of renown. 
Yeah. So that's describing mating. Yeah. Between
spiritual entities, sons of God, whatever that 
means. Yeah. And human women really the rape of
them which whoever they choose suggests rape, 
right? Yeah. So what is that? Yeah. So um sons
of God is used for example in Job this is 
referring to a group of and what we would
call angelic beings. Yes. Um so the the ancient 
texts including ancient Jewish texts will use
small G gods to refer to them but that makes us 
really uncomfortable. Yes. The modern world as
monotheistic angelic beings works a little bit 
right for people. Um but uh even that we think
of angels and we think you know oh you know kind 
of affeminite guy with wings right and that's not
really what what angels are angels angelic beings 
are sort of vast cosmic intelligences. Yes. Um and
so we have to sort of think about that a little 
differently like what a spirit is. Um but yes,
this is talking about them having intimate 
relations, right, with with uh human women
and that that is involved in the production 
of these people, right, of the the giants who
we were talking about, right? And their sort of 
reproduction, right, on on the earth. And okay,
so that's a different genetic profile. They're not 
fully human. Right. Right. And so this is this is
now we're getting freaky. Yeah. This is this is 
also an inversion, right? Because of course the
the uh from the pagan perspective, they would say 
these people are part divine, right? So the epic
of Gilgamesh, Gilgamesh is twothirds uh divine 
and one-third human, right? According to to the
epic of Gilgamesh. And there's a text called 
the book of the giants that we found among the
Dead Sea Scrolls. Huh. That's not part of the 
Bible, but it includes a list of the giants,
a list of the Nephilim. And Gilgamesh is one of 
the names uh that's listed there. So this was a
very deliberate, right? This is just incidental. 
And this was in Kuman. Yeah. Yeah. And so this is,
you know, a millennium later, but they still have 
Gilgamesh in mind as one of the So this is right
at the turn of the last millennium. Yeah. Around 
the time of Jesus. Yeah. Yeah. Um so and that of
course was part of why they were so great and so 
good and so admirable and why they had this secret
knowledge. And so this is turning that around and 
saying, "No, they're twothirds demon. Essentially,
they're twothirds unclean spirit. They're 2/3. 
Uh, but this idea just like the the fact of it
that entities from the spiritual realm, nonhuman 
entities, whatever they are, however we're going
to describe them, lower G gods, angels, demons, 
whatever, that they can mate with human beings and
produce not fully human replicas of human beings 
who can walk among us and rule over us. Like
this is a biblical principle. Yeah. Well, yeah. 
But what this what this sort of corresponds to,
right, if we had a time machine and a right, 
a GoPro, is that there were these particular
rituals that were happening that were involved 
in the production of the the next king. Uh,
and this happens after the flood, too. And 
what one of the big clues to this that's in
uh the Old Testament is there's this uh figure 
who shows up after the flood uh after the Exodus.
uh Og the king of Bashan who is uh described as 
the last of the Refahheim in uh scripture and and
who exactly the Refim were we sort of weren't 
sure um the word pops up a few places other
places in the Old Testament in Isaiah uh the text 
that's traditionally understood to talk about the
fall of the devil from heaven talks about as he's 
thrown down into the underworld the Refim rising
up to meet him. Uh so there are these few places 
there's uh Psalm uh 88 talks about uh will the
Refim arise and praise you and it's talking about 
in the underworld talking about would would they
praise God? The answer being assumed no. Um, 
but we now know exactly who they were because
uh in the mid 20th century we discovered the city 
of Ugarit which had been destroyed in the Bronze
Age collapse around 1200 BC and lost. Nobody 
knew it was there. Nobody knew existed. It was
discovered and we discovered a library of texts 
there in a language that we now call Uggeritic
after the city. Where where is it? Pardon Bank. 
Uh it's it's it's in uh western Syria. Okay.
Just above Lebanon uh just north right of uh of 
Lebanon. And Rash Shamra is what it's called now.
Um and we found this library of texts. Uritic is 
a Semitic language. So it's like Hebrew or Aramaic
in terms of the vocabulary and the the grammar, 
but it's written in Kuneao form on tablets. Huh.
And so those tablets survived because those 
clay tablets are very difficult to break even
if you try. Y um and in there we it shed a lot of 
light on the Old Testament because as I mentioned
earlier there's a lot of words that only appear 
once in the in the Hebrew Old Testament but we
now have cognate words in Ugaritic that help us 
understand some of these things. But one of the
texts there is a ritual text for when the king 
died. And when the king died of Ugarit died,
they did thiserary ritual where they offered 
sacrifices and did what is essentially magic,
right? Ritual magic to try to ward off the Refim 
who were the spirits of these dead ancient kings
so that the king who had just died could pass 
by them safely to get into the underworld.
And so that then showed us, oh, okay, well, so 
that's what Isaiah is talking about. That's what
the Psalms are talking about, the spirits of these 
dead kings. And so Og being the last one, right,
who's alive uh at the time of the Exodus, he's one 
of these giants. Deuteronomy describes his bed.
It randomly says, you know, talks about Og. Talks 
about Og being slain by the Israelites. Him being
slain is talked about in Numbers and Deuteronomy 
and in two different psalms. They sing about how
great it is that Og, king of Bashan, was slain 
by by God through the Israelites. Uh, and they
say OG's bed, he had this iron bed and it gives 
the dimensions. And you're sort of like, well,
that's a random fun fact. You know, OG slept here. 
I uh and the dimensions are huge. You're like,
"Okay, he's a giant, right?" But we we found a 
ritual bed of the same measurements in the great
ziggurat of Edmani in Babylon, Iraq. Yeah. In the 
city of Babylon. Um and that ritual bed was used
in these sexual rituals to produce the next 
king. So this is not just saying Og was tall.
This is saying OG came out of this sort of sexual 
ritual and this would involve um what were called
at the time shrine prostitutes. These were 
enslaved women um who were sort of used as
vessels for they would be seen to be possessed by 
uh this spiritual entity and then there would be
sexual relations with the king at the time. So the 
king at the time was seen to be as part divine and
part human. We have this uh woman who's possessed 
and then she is human and so that's you get the
2/3 one-/ird there sort of three parents. So that 
the temple prostitute would be the mother of the
new king. Right. And the idea was because she was 
possessed by spirits those spirits would infuse
the new king. Right. Right. And that that's sort 
of and so birthed by by that. Right. So it's the
son of the previous king who was divine and the 
son of this lower G lowerase G god right and and
uh so that that ritual was common throughout the 
ancient world after the rise of Christianity. It
was still common. You see it in places like Asia. 
Uh the Chimera Empire and Cambodia had a version
of this. Really? Yeah. And then the most recent 
example is Japan, right? Where the most civilized,
technologically advanced, rational country in the 
world. Really? That's um in ancient Japan. Well,
up up technically still currently um on the when 
a new Japanese emperor uh succeeds to the throne,
he ritually and ceremonially spends the night with 
the sun goddess. um up until when as part of the
coronation ritual. Well, they they still do it, 
but the Japanese government says that the sexual
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20% off your first purchase. So up until World War 
II, the Japanese emperor was having sex with a sun
goddess. Yes. So Hirohito within living memory. 
Yeah. Hirohito would have been the last one.
Yeah. Um who was the sun goddess? Well, I mean 
this is there he would go into a chamber with
a number of concubines who were embodying right 
the sun goddess. So this is exactly this kind of
ritual still going on. So how did Okay. So this 
is Japan which is an island in East Asia. Yeah.
And this is a like precise replication of what 
was happening in the near east. Yes. Was a long
way away. Yes. How and then also in Indochina 
among the chemmers. Yeah. Also far from Japan
and even farther from the Middle East. Like how 
are these totally different cultures, languages,
geographic locations, all doing exactly the same 
weird thing? Yeah. Well, and and and I mean this
is where we get to the idea of a demonic spirit 
cuz maybe it's real. Yeah. We just maybe we we
we have to accept it and and we we Is that the 
answer? We know this. Yeah. We we know we know
this right there. there. We've seen sort of mass 
evil arise within living memory in the world that
can't be explained by a large group of people all 
making the same bad decisions simultaneously by
coincidence. Right. This is what brought me to 
God was this exact understanding. It was very
obvious observation which somehow I missed. But 
yes, that's right. Yeah. And and we've all been
on the less negative side, right? We've all been 
in crowds. We've been in groups. We've been in
stadiums. We've been in a place of worship with a 
group of people where we've had the experience of
sort of acting together, right? Of participating 
in something together, right? And that's that's
ultimately what a spirit is. A spirit is a sort of 
collective consciousness at a level sort of above
human, right? Um it's hard to understand, right? 
But if we work but it's not hard to recognize back
a little bit, right? So our human body, right? 
Is is made up of there are actually suborganisms
within our human body, right? It's kind of 
gross to think about, but chemically right now,
my gut flora and your gut flora are having 
chemical conversations. I'm sorry. Right.
As we sit here, right? Uh the bacteria that 
our digestive bacteria communicate chemically
with one another. With one another. 
Yeah. When when humans get together,
right? Um there there are all of these 
functions going on within our bodies,
right, that have their own kind of low-level 
consciousness. And then we have our human
consciousness which is sort of over the top 
of that which is the summing up of all of
that. And so when we talk about angelic beings 
or demonic beings, we're just talking about a
level of consciousness that's then above the 
individual human. But they're not projections
of the individual human. They exist separate 
and apart from the They exist separate apart
and we participate in them, right? But we don't 
create them. We sort of embody them in the world,
right? We come to be this is this is what God 
created humanity for originally, right? So he
said earlier Adam is created sort of innocent at 
the beginning of this journey to grow into the
the likeness of God. The way he would do that 
is by functioning as God's image in the world.
So in in Genesis 1, the six days of creation, the 
first three days before that starts, God says,
"The problem is that the earth is formless and 
void." In Hebrew, it's toou a boho. Um, toouhoo.
Yeah, it rhymes. And and it means basically it's 
formless or chaotic. It's disordered and it's
uh empty. And so in the first three days, God 
sets it in order, right? So he separates the
light from the darkness. He separates the sky from 
the sea. He separates the dry land from the sea.
So he places everything in order. And then in 
the second set of three days, days four, five,
and six, they correspond, right? So day four, he's 
already separated light from darkness, sun, moon,
stars, right? sort of the bodies. Uh he's already 
separated the sky and the sea. Fifth day he fills
the sky with life. He fills the sea with life. 
Sixth day he creates um land, animals, and man,
right? Cuz on the third day, he had separated. 
So he's taking care of those. But then he says to
man when he's been created, "Fill the earth and 
subdue it." And what is that two-part command?
Subdue means to put it in order, right? And fill 
it fill it with life. And so, humanity is created
to sort of continue that work of God in the world. 
That's the purpose to continue to participate in
what God is doing in the world. That then trans 
transforms humanity. So, positive example of this,
God is at work continually in the 
world loving every human person.
When I go and I show love to my neighbor, 
that love's not coming from me, right? I'm
participating in God's love. God is loving them 
through me, but that transforms me. Yes, that
love transforms and changes me more toward God's 
likeness, right? And the reverse is true, right?
And in that way, I'm sort of embodying the spirit 
of God, the Holy Spirit in the world. But the flip
side is true. That means humanity can also embody 
other spirits in the world. And when you do that
and you bring that into the world and make it 
concrete, that also changes you. And it's not just
a spiritual or a psychological transformation. 
It's even a physical transformation. We've seen
that. You can see someone who has gone down a dark 
road in life. A photo of them. Yes. They repent,
they change, they come back. You see a photo of 
them. You could physically see it. Well, there's
no question about it. Um, that transformation 
happens in both directions. You can read it in
their faces. Yeah. And so, as humans, we're 
going to participate in something. There are
things larger than us at work in the world, right? 
God being the most important one. And we're either
going to participate in what he's doing in the 
world and be formed and shaped by that, or we're
going to participate in something else and be 
formed and shaped by that. And the end of that
is our destruction right of ourselves and each 
other. There are um the reason I was lingering on
the creation of the Nephilim. Yeah. Is because it 
suggests this idea that sounds really radical when
you first think about it that there are hybrids. 
Yeah. Spirit, human together. Um, but then as
you talk about it a little bit, you realize that 
every culture has always believed this. In fact,
Jesus has described as the as the union of God 
and a human woman. It's like actually it's a
central concept everywhere all the time. Like 
it's not shocking. Yeah. Right. Right. I mean,
not in a sexual way in that case. Yeah. Be clear. 
Yeah. Right. Not in a sexual way. Right. But
but yes. Yeah. Yeah. This baby is the product of 
God's spirit and a human, right? And Christ is the
express image of God, right? He is the fullness of 
the image, right? And the Greek myth different but
related stories about people being. So why is it 
crazy and I think people have, you know, lived in
the world for a while. Why is it crazy to someone 
have a feeling when you're talking to someone that
this is not that there's something else going on 
here? That this person's not, you know, does this
still happen? Yeah. I I think I have felt that way 
really strongly about people in charge a couple of
times. Not just I disagree with them, I just, you 
know, I think you're a bad person. It's not even
that. It's like what is this? Yeah. Yeah. No, I 
have I have only kind of thankfully met a person
like that once in my life. It was in a part of my 
uh pastoral training in a in a forensic psych. Uh,
I met a person who had done I won't describe what 
because it's hideous and you won't be able to get
it out of your head, but had done horrific things 
to a child and that's how he ended up there. Yes.
But who enjoyed bragging about it and describing 
it in detail to people and watching the look on
their faces, right? Like that level of gone. So 
there there are people like that. And did you feel
as you talked to this person or listened to this 
person that there was this was not fully human or
this was some kind of hybrid? You could look in 
his eyes and see that there was something inhumid
there. I have had that same experience with 
people. Not not quite as cartoonish and obvious
as that but still like what is this? Yeah. Yeah. 
So what is this? It's well I mean I I mean that's
so we would say in the church that that to become 
like Christ to be formed in in in the likeness of
God is to become truly human. That's what it means 
to be human. Yes. And so to the degree which you
go down the other road you become something 
inhuman. Mhm. Uh St. John Chrissum in one of
his uh homalies uh is talking to so he's he's 
preaching in uh Constantinople to just regular
people fourth century yeah end of the fourth 
beginning of the fifth yeah and he he says to
uh his people he says so you believe that uh 
if someone dies a violent death they become a
demon right so we kind of had that cultural idea 
too right somebody dies some kind of violent or
horrible death they come back as this vengeful 
ghost or whatever. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Murder
victims haunt the house where they were killed. 
Yeah. So, they apparently had that kind of idea,
too. And he says, uh, that's incorrect. He says it 
is people who live like demons who become demons.
Uh so in the same way that there is an actual 
transformation of humanity as as we're formed
in the likeness of God, there is an actual 
transformation of humanity into something else. Of
course, and it's obvious you become how you live 
for sure when you go when you go down that other
road. It's an actual metaphysical transformation 
of who you are even to the point where so a big
part of the understanding of what's going on with 
the Nephilim before the flood is that a lot of
the demonic spirits that are talked about later 
in scripture and after the flood are understood
to be the spirits of those Nephilim of those dead 
Nephilim. is explicit in like the book of Jubilees
which is a a a Jewish text from the period in 
between the the old and new testaments but a very
important one. Um if you read like Josephus's 
uh Jewish antiquities he's cribbing from the
history and Jubilees all the time. Uh he just 
accepts it as historical. Um and it talks about
uh at the time of the flood the Nephilim are wiped 
out. They all die and they have sort of a leader
who's named uh Mastima. And Mastima comes to God 
and wants to strike this bargain with him. Don't
don't send us all into the abyss. Don't send 
us all into into uh like a fire. Let some of
us stay on the earth. We promise if you let us do 
that, we'll only torment bad people. Okay? We'll
only torment wicked people. Um, and uh, in in the 
book of Jubilees, God agrees to allow 10% of them
to remain to torment wicked people, but it says 
that God's motive is he wants to use that to bring
wicked people to repentance, right? So, there's 
sort of a a theodyssey going on there, right? Sort
of justification of God. Why does God allow these 
demonic, right, spirits? But you see reflections
of that story even in like the gospels, right? 
because they're the these spirits are told at
that time you're going to be uh you're allowed 
to honor until the last judgment and then you're
going to the lake of fire with everybody else but 
you get this sort of reprieve. So for example when
when Christ comes to the demoniac man and the 
demons say to him, "Have you come to torment us
before the time?" Exactly. Like hey wait, we had 
a deal. Yeah. Right. That's and then uh he ends
up casting them into the pigs and the pigs run off 
the cliff and it says they run off the cliff into
the abyss which is the place where those other 
demonic spirits were imprisoned and there's a
dynamic going on there where the name Jesus is 
actually the name Joshua right of course Joshua
in the book of Joshua goes and battles these giant 
clans to sort of reclaim the land and purify them
from evil that's paralleled with Christ is sort 
of the true Joshua comes into the land to purify
it from evil and he's dealing with the spirits 
of these same these same beings. And so the the
idea that how does that become a spirit? Well, I 
mean, we've seen this, right? You you can point
to men in history who were wicked men, right, who 
are long dead, but their spirit has lived on. Oh,
no doubt. people have continued to participate in 
that spirit and embody it, right? And and bring it
forward. The same's true on the other side. Those 
are the people we call saints, right? They live
a lived a life embodying the spirit of God, being 
formed into his likeness. And even though they've
died, sort of their spirit lives on. They become 
the patron saints of people and nations and right
and families and people groups um and continue to 
have this life, right? as so you're describing the
process of becoming that every person experiences. 
You're becoming something. But Genesis 6 is
describing an act of creation. Yeah. Saying that 
these beings were different from the very start
because they didn't have two human parents. 
Yes. So that's a very different thing. Well,
and there's so that we we also have to understand 
what it means to be part of a people in the
ancient sense. We have concepts like ethnicity and 
DNA and Yep. and these kind of things. Of course,
they had no idea about those concepts. So, 
being part of a people was about two things.
Participating in their initiation rituals. Yes. 
And uh then participating in the ongoing ritual
life of the community. So biblically, you look 
at ancient Israel, what made you an Israelite
is if you were male, you were circumcised. Uh if 
you were female, you were either the daughter or
the wife of a circumcised male and you ate the 
Passover, right? You participated in the festal
sort of year. Uh within Christianity, 
right, it's you're baptized initiation,
right? and then you participate in the Eucharist 
and the ongoing sacramental life of the church.
So the same was true on this other side, right? So 
what we've been talking about is essentially the
initiation ritual, right? The beginning, right? 
And then there was an ongoing ritual life and
according to the book of wisdom or the wisdom of 
Solomon that depending on where you land, right,
Christianity may or may not be part of your Old 
Testament. um makes this explicit. Other texts
outside of the scriptures make this explicit that 
the ongoing ritual life of these people involved
human sacrifice and human sacrifice uh involved 
cannibalism. Yes, we have a very skewed view of
sac we haven't done a lot of animal sacrifice and 
seen a lot of it. So, we have kind of this skewed
view that it's about killing the animal. It's not 
really about killing the animal, it's about eating
the animal. Yes. part of it being offered to god 
or a god uh and then part of it being consumed
right and so cannibalism either at the level you 
see in Meso America right blood drinking right um
that's why blood drinking is forbidden throughout 
the Bible um and so there was cannibalism involved
in in uh this human sacrifice and so that was sort 
of renewed you have this initiation you have this
beginning and then there is this ongoing ritual 
participation. Yes. And I mean not to disagree
with you, but I just have to ask like if so 
if ancient peoples had no sense of genetics,
why were genealogies so important. Well, that's 
that's dissent, right? It's genetic descent. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. But that could be broken, right? So, 
let me give you an example. Um, Caleb, there are
sort of two there's there's the episode after the 
Exodus where the spies, one spy from each of the
12 tribes of Israel is sent into the land. And 10 
of them come back and say, "No, there's Nephilim
there. We can't do it, right? It's going to be too 
tough, right? You don't want to mess with them,
right?" Uh, and two of them, Joshua and Caleb, 
yep, come back and say, "No, we, you know, yeah,
we can't do this by ourselves, but God's on our 
side. God's going to win the victory for us.
put put your faith in him. We can do this. Caleb 
is identified in the text as being a Kennzite.
A Kennzite is not only a Canaanite, it's one of 
the Canaanite tribes they were supposed to wipe
out. It's one of the giant clans. It's one these 
people. He's technically one of them genetically
or by descent, right? But he's listed as an 
elder of the tribe of Judah in the Old Testament
because he was incorporated. And when you're 
incorporated, they would have said about him,
"No, Judah was his father. He was a descendant 
of Judah." Right? Now, we would say, "Well,
not genetically." Right. Right. But from their 
view, now that he's been richly incorporated,
you you didn't just join become an Israelite 
in general. you became a member of a particular
family that was part of a particular clan that 
was part of a particular tribe, right? And those
are now his people and the Kennesites are not his 
people. He is now not a Kennzite. So that's the
difference is that that was that was malleable. 
That was changeable. So when did the requirement
emerge that in order to be Jewish, you had to be 
the son of a Jewish mother? That was after the
destruction of the temple. Yeah, that was after 
the return from exile. So if you read Ezra and
Nehemiah, they're talking about that. They're 
talking that that's when they ban uh Israelite
men marrying foreign women, right? And the 
matrinal descent is a way of ensuring genetics,
just guaranteeing that. Yeah. Right. Because 
everyone knows who your mom is. But so that's
a later thing. If you look at in the Torah in 
Deuteronomy, there's a whole ritual setup for if
you want to marry a woman from one of these other 
groups where she shaves her head and there's this
sort of ritual thing where she's her old life is 
put away and her new life now she's an Israelite,
right? So that they had a way of incorporating 
that. Is there any fossil record that supports
uh the idea of giants striding the earth? 
Actual 50 foot tall people? No. Yeah. I mean,
I don't know how tall, but taller than Well, 
yeah. So, they they disagree a lot of times. So,
when we have visual depictions, they're usually 
depicted as 15 foot foot tall. Mhm. But that's a
that's a sort of deliberate coding. So, uh in the 
ancient near east, they believed that that their
gods had a ritual body. Mhm. That was about 15 
ft tall. Um, and if you look at uh we we've got
excavated temples of Baal, for example, where they 
have footprints that are supposed to be Baal's
footprints, right? Uh, as he was walking in to be 
sort of enthroned in his temple was the idea. And
if you measure the stride, it's based on him being 
about 15 foot tall. So, they're doing You think
they're real footprints? Well, these are clearly 
carved by people. Okay. Right. To represent that.
But the idea is that's how tall the gods were. 
So that's how they usually depict the Nephilim as
being 15 foot tall. Um Goliath is sort of one of 
the last stragglers. Yes. At the end of the book
of Joshua, it says that sort of the last of the 
Anakim, which is another word for the Nephilim,
fled into Philistine territory. And so then 
when David comes as king, he sort of roots
out the last of them, right? Um Goliath being 
one of them. How tall he is. Again, numbers,
there's not numerals, so things go weird places. 
According to uh the Greek Old Testament tradition,
he was 6'6, which is like 2 inches taller than me, 
right? But which in the early Iron Age would have
made him gigantic, right? The average the average 
man was, I think, like 5'5. Yeah. Right. At the
time in that area. Um in uh the Hebrew text he's 
9'9 which is more clearly a sort of supernatural
kind of height. Yes. Right. To sort of to sort of 
convey this. Um so certainly there were people who
were abnormally tall like in the 6'6 6'7 range 
right some of them who who were these people.
uh we do not have and given we don't have a lot 
of skeletal remains from that period either right
that are there are a million reports from the 
19th century in North America in the US of people
finding 9 foot tall skeletons in some cave in 
Nevada etc etc etc they were all destroyed by
the Smithsonian any of that true um not as not as 
far as we could tell not as far as we could verify
and some of those were proven to be the Cardiff 
giant stuff those were proven proven to be hoaxes
Um, so I I think a lot of that came out of 
there there was very much in the anti-modernist
movement, right? What became evangelical 
Christianity, there was very much an idea that
we need to scientifically prove that everything in 
the Bible is literally true. Yes. And and that led
to some of that grasping. Um, but as far as you 
know, there have never been found on Earth fossils
of human beings. Not verifiably. We notifiably. 
Okay. Do you believe that um since Genesis 6 says
this process of the sons of God impregnating the 
daughters of man is still ongoing. Do you think
that happens now? I mean it certainly could. Yeah, 
it certainly it certainly could. Like we said it
was 80 years ago. We know they were doing a 
similar sort of thing uh with the Japanese
emperor. Um there's no reason it couldn't. There's 
no reason the attendant later rituals with human
sacrifice and things couldn't be going on cuz 
they're just glimpses of it. I mean what's what's
interesting in the about the Epstein files for 
example Yeah. which to the extent I have read them
are only hinting at various things and you have no 
idea exactly what it means. It is like reading an
esoteric text. It's like you're not read in. So 
you don't really interpret it clearly. But there
is a fixation on blood on genetics and there seems 
to have been that for since the time that we're
talking about like yeah blood human sacrifice 
sex not just for pleasure but or reproduction
but as a ritual like these are ongoing motifs 
through human history right Alistister Crowley
is a real person yeah 100% but I mean the Incas 
were doing the same thing that I don't know some
remote African tribe was doing Canaanites were 
doing it's like everyone's doing the same thing
is fixated on the same four or five themes. I 
am by no means a flat-earther, but early NASA
there was some weird stuff with some of those 
scientists. Oh, big time. Yeah. Um, yeah. So,
that's definitely right. that and and well so but 
I guess what I'm saying is if different cultures
at different times throughout history are focused 
on exactly the same kind of nonobvious ideas like
the spirit world breeds with people technology 
comes from the spirit world blood is somehow
magical human sacrifice is like the source of 
power like who would who would think of these
things like this isn't a coincidence that just all 
rooted in some kind of reality that right and and
it's and it's a it's a real like like I said that 
you're you're going to embody and participate in
something right spiritually and as Christianity 
has receded and been lost in quote unquote western
countries right we should expect more and more of 
that to come intruding back in because that's the
other option frankly no you would expect something 
brand new and like People would think of like
a new religious expression that isn't based on 
human sacrifice, but they never have. Right. Well,
if it was just humans making it up, that's what 
I'm saying. Yeah. So, it's obvious it's obvious
to me. I mean, I'm not a priest unlike you, 
so maybe this like I'm just figuring this out,
but like clearly human sacrifice does bring dark 
power to the people who commit it. Yes. Like,
duh. Yes. They they I Yeah. They weren't doing 
this stuff because it didn't work, right? They
were having some kind of experience, they were 
having some kind of right, something was happening
there. So witchcraft is real. Yeah. And and and 
when you read just purely pagan sources, right,
that they're kind of honest about it, right? 
and and this stuff is so we've we've received
the classics through the enlightenment which 
means we purge all the not just anything quote
unquote supernatural but even religious elements 
there are still people publishing books talking
about how Plato and Aristotle were not religious 
you know they represent these sort because the
the figures of the enlightenment sort of recast 
the ancient philosophers as versions of them,
you know, and since they had rejected the religion 
of their time, well, clearly someone like Plato
or Aristotle can't have accepted the religion 
of their time. No, they were like enthusiastic
polytheists. Yes. Yeah. Aristotle's school was 
in a temple of Apollo, right? They were on board.
They they nuanced things, right? But I mean, in 
in Plato's dialogue, Socrates talks about how he
has this this demon, this demon, this spirit that 
dwells within him and whispers wisdom to his soul.
Right. Yeah. There's no, you know, it's 
Christians who come along and say that's
a bad thing, right? And then post-Christian 
enlightenment people say, "Oh, well that's silly,
so we'll just ignore it. It's not a thing." But 
they're very honest about it, right? I mean,
ancient authors are very honest. What's happening 
at the the Bakadanelia, the actual Bakanelia,
is people are being possessed by the Bach by these 
spirits and participating in in drug and alcohol
induced orgies, right, in in public at these 
feasts. Again, the point of it is not just sex for
pleasure. Let's go get laid. The point of it is to 
commune with with demons, right? Spirit is part of
the Yes. These spirits are possessing them, right? 
taking possession of them, taking over their body,
and participating in these things. That's what 
they say they were doing. Well, that's I I think
of the remaining world religions that we know 
about that are practiced in public, only Haitian
voodoo and African voodoo is honest about that. 
Talks that openly about it. It talks that openly
about it. Some forms of Hinduism, but yeah. Okay. 
They aren't prevalent in the West, right? Outside
of India, right? Yeah. But certainly in Haiti, 
like there's human sacrifice. It's denied in in
the United States media for whatever reason, but 
it's talk to any Haitian about it. It happens.
Yeah. Oh, it's the center of the religion. Yeah. 
Right. And but the point of it is not just to kill
kids for its own sake. The point of it is to 
receive spiritual power. Spiritual Yeah. Yeah.
And I mean, I'm down in southern Louisiana, so I'm 
not that far from And that still goes on. I mean,
of course it does. Yeah. So um what are like what 
are we to understand about the Nephilim now? Yeah.
I I mean yeah I I think it is this possibility 
that's at the end of that chain of yielding to sin
and wickedness. Right. This is the the anti-saint. 
Right. Right. This is this is what happens when we
not only don't find our full humanity in in 
Christ, but give up our humanity in favor of
something else. Um that that twists and distorts 
our humanity. Um, and so yeah, it it is it is this
dark possibility and there are people out there 
who have gone that that far. I sometimes get asked
as someone who is that far gone, can they repent, 
right? Can they turn back? And it's sort of, well,
with God all things are possible, right? Like I 
don't I don't see how, but with God all things are
possible, right? Um, but an awareness that that 
that is a dark possibility and that that it is
something that happens. There are people doing 
this. I said not long after the full Epstein
files got released, I said uh on my podcast, I 
said, "Well, we now know that the world is is uh
run by demon worshiping pedarass." Sort of like it 
has been since the Roman Empire. Yes. Or before,
right? and Christians were able to operate right 
during that time in a world that you know was was
uh that was how it how it operated. So um I 
I think it's good to be free of some of our
delusions. Yes. Right. In this regard and 
not being aware of the spiritual world or
ignoring it or denying it doesn't make it stop 
existing. Yes. It's sort of like walking through
a minefield under fire and just denying that 
there's a war happening. Yes. You're just going
to end up being a casualty, right, of sort of 
the spiritual warfare and things that are going
on all around you that you refuse to see. It also 
seems to have I mean the world that you describe
pre flood is a world that's just given itself over 
to rule by demons. Yeah. and the manifestations.
Everyone has come on board. Everyone's come 
on board. There's no meaningful resistance to
it. Technology has reached its, you know, kind of 
impossibly high place. That technology itself was
a gift from demons. It's antihuman. It's anti- 
good. And then God destroys the world. I mean,
it starts over. Yeah. Yeah. So what does that have 
implications for the moment we're living in on the
brink of AI? Well, I mean ev everywhere in uh this 
is true in second temple Jewish literatur is true
in the New Testament when they're talking 
about the end, right? The end of the world
uh Christ's glorious appearing, right? When 
that ends, it's always compared to the days
of Noah. Yeah. Right. It's always referred 
to as and when St. Peter responds with why
is he taking so long to return right with all 
the suffering and all the evil in the world
uh St. Peter's answer is that the the uh God 
is being patient in giving time the maximal
time for repentance. But the world has reached 
a point and can and will reach a point again
where no one's interested in that opportunity 
anymore, right? And that's when the end will
come because there's no point in delaying it at 
that point. But I think it's it's important that
people understand that the way salvation even in 
Christian circles gets talked about a lot is it's
salvation from the world, right? And and I don't 
want someone to take from this conversation that,
oh, okay, well, you know, I could die and go 
to heaven and get away from all this. Yeah,
the world's Yeah. going to hell and the great 
escape. But the salvation begins here, right?
you you can be saved from that now. That sort of 
spectrum of sin we talked about, right? You don't
have to ride it all the way to the end. You can be 
set free from it at any point, right? That slavery
in this world. This is the purpose of Christ's 
church, right? Is to offer the other answer,
right? the other way, the way toward becoming 
toward becoming truly human, being set free from
that, right, in this world and then right enjoying 
a world that's free from that beyond this life in
eternity. But both of those are included, right, 
in in uh what salvation is and what's on offer.
So, I mean, how does it make you feel personally 
as you see the world moving in a way that's just
more explicitly evil and the leadership of the 
world becoming just sort of openly demonic? Yeah.
Does that strike fear into you or? Um, not 
it doesn't strike fear to me because I think
I think it's honest now. I don't think it's 
different. I think it's honest. I think it's
revealed. Yeah. Now, right. Because I don't think 
any of this just suddenly restarted. No. Like in
1968. No. No. That's there is this sort of popular 
narrative that everything was beautiful from the
end of World War II until about 1968. And that's 
just not true at all. Um and so it being now out
there, right? Uh now provides a number of 
opportunities for helping people, right? I
I deal with actual individual people, individual 
lives every day, right? in the church and being
confronted by the fact that spiritual evil is 
real can be the shock that brings someone to,
oh, God is real, right? Yes. That uh salvation is 
something I need to find. I think that's often the
case. These patterns in my life aren't just 
bad habits that I could kick anytime I want,
but there's something going on in my life that I 
need to be set free from, right? and and that's
going to require some things of me, right? And 
require some changes and require some healing
from God beyond myself, right? And and so there is 
this now opportunity here that when everybody sort
of thought everything was okay and they were okay 
and everything was fine, right? You had to try and
convince somebody that there was a problem. You 
don't have to do that so much now. No. Right. Um,
and so, so I think there's an opportunity for a 
lot of people to help be helped, to find freedom,
right? To find salvation, to transform their 
lives. So, I I choose to look at it that way,
right? Yes. Rather than the other I think that's 
the right way to look at it. Yeah. What So,
what is your advice when someone comes to you in 
bondage? Like what what is the process for being
set free? Yeah. So I I think the fir the fir very 
first part is you have to become part of something
and submit yourself to something bigger than 
yourself, right? So in my case obviously that's
that's the church, right? Because again you're 
not just an individual out there, right? Your your
brain is not just closed in this box and you're 
just doing your own thing. You're participating
in these spiritual realities whether you like to 
or not, right? And so you have to submit yourself
to something to being transformed by something. 
And that involves becoming part of a community,
right? Sharing bonds with other people. That 
community brings accountability, right? It it
brings a change of life, right? Because you you 
can't live a life in isolation. Aristotle said,
"For someone to live alone, they have to be either 
a beast or a god." Yeah. Right. Um so you know you
have to find this life in community. It's as as 
I was talking about you find this transformation
through participating in what God is doing 
in the world. Well God is loving someone. I
have to be with that person and love them. Right? 
God is having compassion. I have to be with that
person. Have compassion for them and be kind for 
them. It's it's not something you could practice
off by yourself. Definitely not something you 
could practice on the internet, right? That's
um but and so you need to you need to become a 
part of that. And then within that you you need
to form spiritual relationships with within 
the Orthodox church that we have the idea
of spiritual fatherhood that's very important 
where you have a person who you trust deeply,
right? Who you sort of open up and bear your soul 
to, right? who you uh someone other than yourself
who you say this is what I think I should do 
am I right you know uh uh should I right where
where you can get feedback and have this ongoing 
relationship of guidance right as you work through
these things because this isn't a snap it isn't 
you say a prayer it isn't even you get baptized
and now everything's great right this is this is 
a long process of of working your way back down
that that road and then getting onto the right 
road and moving in a positive direction. But
it's available to everyone, right? If you're 
willing to, right, come and participate in it.
But it's not as simple as an altar call during a 
church service. Yeah. And and we know that, right?
That's why I I had I have a friend who was a um 
Assemblies of God pastor, and I asked him once,
"Did you write the day you got saved, the date in 
your in front of your Bible?" He said, "Oh, yeah.
I wrote all of them." Because he'd go forward and 
then he'd go back to his life and be, "Oh, I don't
think that took. Let me go do it again." Right? 
And so, it is this ongoing thing, right? It is
uh Adam was created to begin, right? This life 
of growth toward God, right? That that doesn't
just happen throughout this life, but stretches 
on into eternity. Um because God's infinite. So,
we're not going to get to the point where, you 
know, uh, now I know everything about God now.
Right. It's it's sharing in God's life forever. 
Has there ever been any other society at scale
that didn't put God at the center or gods at the 
center? Put its religious practice at the center
of its civilization. No. No. It always happens. 
Right. So, this recently covered that with a
veneer of science. Oh, no. for insisting this 
isn't a religion, right? It's a secular ideology,
okay? You know, but but there's, you know, 
there's an ideology, there's ritual activity,
there are sacred texts, there are all the things 
religions have, right? You know, that's Yeah. So,
that's never h but but has there ever been a 
society that was as um dishonest about it as
ours? No. No. I think that's the there's a lot 
of spiritual delusion and self-d delusion. Um
and that comes out of there there was a move in 
the the 18th and and 19th centuries where sort of
deliberately uh spiritual iconography, religious 
iconography, religious symbols and practices were
taken over by the state. I noticed happened in 
Europe for I mean you could go to the capital see
the the uh deification of George Washington and 
sort of all of these things all the weird Masonic
symbols and our currency like what is that being 
attributed to this political stuff right and sort
of the formation of you know we're not going 
to be we're not going to be uh solos scriptor
protestants talking about the original text we're 
going to be all about the constitution ution and
what did the framers have in mind? Right? We're 
just going to switch this all over into the the
political realm. And then as politics is kind of 
devolved, it's, you know, become even more sort of
ephemeral than that, right? Um, and so we're not 
willing to admit that our rituals are rituals.
uh were not willing to admit, you know, the the 
way the way most people talk about the economy
is essentially the way ancient people would talk 
about a god. What do you mean? That's you know,
flesh that out. That's fascinating. Well, the the 
economy makes decisions, right? The economy favors
this group over that group. Uh we need to do this 
and that to sort of appease the economy, right?
Make sacrifices, right? Uh so there all these 
you know we don't call it mammon you know but
the it's it's the the same kind of it's fulfilling 
the same kind of the same kind of idea right and
uh other for war right you we don't call it 
Aries we don't talk about a war god right but
we we talk about national events it needs to be 
fed it needs to be supplied with right sacrifices
need to be made and right and and So it's all the 
same ways of thinking because they're built into
what it means to be human. Yes. And so if you if 
you remove overt religion, you just get covert
Yes. religion. Which is but always a species of 
like what the Canaanites practiced and what the
Mayas practiced. It amounts to the same thing. 
It's paganism. It's human sacrifice. Once again,
whether it's abortion or war or whatever, 
it's killing people in order to get peace and
prosperity and power. Right. Right. What do you I 
mean, how should Christians approach that? Well,
it's it's a lot of them seem to ratify it. A 
lot of the leaders seem to be like, "Yeah, no,
this is a good thing." Unfortunately, yes. Yeah. 
That's And a lot of religion has been secularized.
It's a bizarre phrase, right? But in the United 
States, it kind of has. I mean, it's it started
with the more leftwardleaning religious bodies. 
Yes. Becoming sort of just overtly political and
oriented toward this world. Um, and but it has 
now gradually come to include a lot of the more
rightward leaning religious bodies where sort of 
the especially the esquetology of Christianity
um the the the ultimate goal right of blessedness 
is removed from sharing in the life of God himself
or the life of the world to come and it's made 
very this worldly. Right. So it's prosperity
now. Yes. Right. And whether it's a a mainline 
liberal Protestant denomination saying prosperity
now in the sense of we need to help the poor and 
raise their standard of living or whether it's
um because that's what the gospel is, 
right? Or it's a prosperity preacher,
right, in a more socially conservative church. 
Yes. saying, you know, give your seed and,
you know, you'll get back 10 times, you know, 
the money and you'll have all this wealth,
right? It's taking that and moving it all, 
right? Don't build up treasures in heaven,
build them up here on earth. Uh that's that's sort 
of that's sort of the goal, right? And uh that is
secularization in the in the true sense, right? 
the the the first sort of thinker to talk about
uh the the seculum was uh St. Augustine in city 
of god and he was using that city of god famously
where the title comes from he's living at the time 
of the collapse of the western Roman Empire which
from their perspective was the end of the world. 
Yes, certainly then to the world as they knew it,
right? Um and saying him saying so yes, there is 
this city of man, right? There is this empire,
there are these kings, there is this government, 
there's also the city of God and the city of God
exists eternally and is steadfast, right? And 
he described what was going on outside as as the
secular the secularum, right? the which included 
in it not just uh the world but also the idea
of an age as in it's constantly shifting right 
there's sort of this cyclical pattern nations rise
and fall all these things happen there's a sort of 
churn right and that's but that's outside of the
place where God is and so a lot of these formerly 
sort of overtly religious movements have just
become engaged in that cycle and you can watch 
them. It's like the the the they're virtually
in the news cycle now, right? In terms of what 
they're quote unquote preaching, right, and coming
out and weighing in on, it's just sort of whatever 
is going on in the news cycle right now, right?
And this constant sort of churn and they're making 
these prophecies that don't come true and oh well,
don't worry about that. Here's the next one. 
And it just, you know, continues in this in this
never- ending thing. But it's not it it's divorced 
from the actual spiritual reality of who God is,
who Christ is, right? What God is doing in 
the world. Those questions aren't even asked,
right? It's more about um asking God to bless 
what I'm doing in the world or just asserting
that God is blessing and is behind what I'm doing 
in the world. Um, what do you think of that? Well,
there's there's a famous quote from Abraham 
Lincoln during the Civil War where a reporter
asked him if he thought God was on the side 
of the Union. Yeah. And he said, "The question
isn't whether God's on our side. The question 
is whether we're on God's." Exactly. Right. And
that's the core question, right? The core question 
that anybody who's going to call themselves a
Christian should be asking is what is God doing 
in the world right now? Where is he active in
the world right now? I need to get on board with 
that. I need to become a part of that. Not what
do I want? What do I think should happen? And I'm 
going to try and get, you know, a whole bunch of
people to try and pray and convince God to do, you 
know, or I'm going to claim and assert that God is
going to do what I think he should do, right? 
Um, that's that's not only kind of a a gross
inversion of Christianity, but it's essentially 
the way ancient magic and sorcery worked really,
right? That's what separates sort of your when 
you're talking about ancient religion, right, in
the in the pagan world, when you're talking about 
the Greco Roman world or the ancient near east,
the the division between magic and just sort of 
pagan religion, right, is that in pagan religion,
they thought that the the gods, the spirits they 
were worshiping sort of remained free. So you
could make a sacrifice, you make an offering to 
them, you try to cajul them into doing what you
want, but they could say no. They could decide 
they don't favor you, right? You read the Iliad,
the gods could just decide to switch sides in the 
middle of the war, right? Um, they sort of remain
free. With magic, the idea of ritual magic is that 
you get by doing the ritual in the correct way,
saying the correct things, doing the correct 
things, you get the spiritual entity to do,
you kind of compel it or command it to do what 
you want it to do. That makes you God. God of
God of those demons. Yeah. Right. And so even when 
someone identifies as a Christian, if they're out
there trying to say, well, if you do XYZ, right, 
if we get X number of people praying, if we do,
then God will that's essentially magic, right? the 
the the whole idea of Christian prayer and worship
and the Christian life is that God is transforming 
me. Yeah. Not that I'm changing God or getting
God to change and be different, right? Or do 
something he wouldn't do otherwise. Bossing God
around. Yeah. Yeah. So, how much genuine Christian 
practice do you see? I mean, I don't want to be
mean. Um, that's I I No, I think on on if you go 
to the level of the average person, the average
Christian person, regardless of what denomination, 
what church, what group they identify with,
right? Or are part of or where they go on a Sunday 
morning, right? I think the average Christian
person is trying to follow Christ as best they 
know how. Yes. Sometimes they're wrong, right?
We can get things wrong. We get it, right? They 
they're misled. They've been lied to by leaders,
right? All that happens. But in their heart 
and in their soul, they're that's what they're
trying to do. So that level of Christian practice, 
there's a lot, I think, right? Yeah. Um if we're
t looking top down, uh that's where things get 
a little more troubling, right? in terms of um
in terms of in terms of leadership. Now, obviously 
I'm I mean I can't sit here as an Orthodox priest
and pretend I'm not, you know, biased toward the 
Orthodox church, right? Yes, of course. That's you
know, on the table. Let me frame it differently. 
When was the last time How do you experience God?
Like actual God's work? Yeah. Daytoday. Yeah. 
Well, so there's both within the services of
the church, right? Because I I see God very much 
working in that way. And it's not just the actual
quote unquote worship service, but the time spent 
afterward in fellowship together, the life of
the community, right? Um I see that continuously, 
right? I also I mean I I hear people's confessions
and confession is done a little differently 
in the Orthodox Church than the Roman Catholic
Church because we have this as I said spiritual 
fatherhood tradition. Um and so I've I've seen
people come through and come back from some 
really difficult and terrible things. Um,
like what? Well, I mean I I don't want to divulge 
anything. No, I mean not in specific specifics. No
names, but like what kind of things you're talking 
about? People who have had the kind of traumatic
childhoods that you see as the origin of a villain 
in a movie. Yeah. Yeah. Like for real. Yeah. Yeah.
um that you know and and people who have gone down 
really dark roads of addiction and violence and
and come back from committing violence from that. 
Yeah. Um and uh and marriages being saved, right,
after things that should have destroyed them. 
Um you've seen that. You think? Yeah. And so
that all happens, right? It really does. You've 
seen marriage just totally blown up that are
saved. Yes. Yes. And it takes time and it takes 
a lot of work and both of the people have to be
on board. But but there is healing there on 
offer from God. Um, part of the part of the
failure of a lot of Christianity, um, broadly 
is that an an environment has been created,
I think unintentionally, where people are afraid 
to open up and even talk about things like that
with anyone. It's sort of we go to church on 
Sunday, we put on our Sunday best. We all act like
everything's fine when it's definitely not fine, 
right? And and you know, this is why AA meetings
are so wonderful because there's no pretense like 
that at all. And and and I I I I say to people
um about confession because especially if they've 
come into the Orthodox church and they're from
a background that doesn't do it. Yeah. There's a 
lot of trepidation and what is this and I'm scared
and how can I tell you these things and you're a 
priest. I respect you. I don't want you to know
these things. But right and I try and tell them 
I'm like each of us walks through life thinking
we're the most disgusting, perverted, weird 
Yeah. you know, disturbed individual to ever
walk the planet. Right. And if you're actually 
willing to open up with other people about that,
you find out that most of them are dealing with 
the same stuff. Yeah. and struggling with the same
things. And the power of opening up about that 
in a place that's designed to bring you healing,
right? When we we say over and over again in the 
Orthodox church that the church is a hospital,
not a courtroom. Yeah. It's not about finding 
who's guilty of what, right? It's about helping
people in various stages of woundedness, some of 
them almost dead, right? Trying to help them find
healing, right? and restoration to life. There's 
incredible power to that to just that honesty,
right, of telling someone finally this 
thing that I've been hiding from everyone,
even myself when I had managed it for decades, you 
know, um saying that out loud, right? Admitting it
and then talking about, okay, how are we going to 
work on this? How are we going to going to make
things right? How are we going to start moving 
toward toward healing and restoration? A priest
for almost 20 years. Have the kind of confessions 
you receive changed? Are the problems that people
are struggling with different from what they were? 
And what are the what are the common ones? Again,
without being Yeah. I mean, honest honestly, 
they've they've changed less than you'd think,
but there's a there's a pattern when you hear 
confessions. Usually the first 6 months to a year,
uh, you kind of get tested as a priest, right? So, 
you get a lot of like, oh, I was stuck in traffic
and I cussed at the guy who, you know, cut me off. 
And it's like, I'm sure you did, but I'm also sure
there's a lot more, but we'll let it be. We'll let 
it be for now, right? You get those and so that's
that's the confession, right? Yeah. And it's sort 
of those kind of things, you know? you know, oh, I
was late for work and I made up a story, you know, 
those kind of things. Um, but they're testing,
right? They're seeing if it's safe. Yes. Right. 
They're pushing the limits. And then I shot a
man in Reno just to watch him die. Yeah. And then 
at a certain point, right, the real stuff comes
out. Sometimes with tears. Yeah. Sometimes with 
people you'd never expect to see tears from. Um,
and and and it sort of finally unloads. And and 
and a lot of it is the same stuff. A lot of people
are now it takes sort of different forms like 
so for example sexual sin used to be a lot more
about actually doing things with other people. 
Right. Right. And now a lot of it is distortions
and things going on due to pornography on the 
internet and that kind of thing. And so and
so that's changed that. Yes. You've got people 
the this is one of the scariest statistics. The
average age at which a person is first exposed to 
hardcore pornography on the internet in the United
States today is eight. Yeah. I don't know why no 
one's in prison for that. It's weird. Yeah. So,
well, there's too much money being made off 
pornography. I'm aware. Yeah. That's And again,
the economy is kind of god now, right? Um but so 
yeah, so that's right. and dealing with that has
to be dealt with in a different way. That's not I 
went too far with my girlfriend on a Friday night,
right? There's that that's got to be unwound in 
a different way. Do people sense intuitively? Do
you think that there's something disordered and 
bad about porn or is it something that they learn
at your church and they're like, "Oh, I guess 
it was bad." No, they know. They they know. Um,
a lot of people who are dealing with sexual sin 
and that kind of thing, they will come and when
they're ready to talk about it will say, "Yeah, I 
first saw pornography at some absurdly young age."
Yeah. And and usually there's an escalation 
pattern with it. Yes. Starts out being sort
of quote unquote normal pornography. Not 
that pornography is normal, but Yes. and
then moves into darker and darker places, more 
and more uh dysfunctional places. Um but yeah,
they can they generally have an idea of that. 
But that that is that is breaking a lot of a
lot of people really. Um you see that a lot. 
Yeah. Yeah. and and that is a lot of people's
issues with sexuality uh with gender identity 
a lot of it is traceable back to some of that
early exposure to really that material I believe 
it and it creates this confusion yes um because
propulsion yeah and and people's first sexual 
experiences being divorced from their own body
Yeah right causes is this distortion, right? That 
that takes a lot to unwind. And and part of the
unwinding of that is having a community, right? 
Where they're spending time as themselves, right,
in their own actual body talking to other people 
who are sitting there in front of them. I mean, it
sounds absurd, but no, it doesn't. For gener for 
for for zoomers, that's a rare experience. Now,
A lot of them socialize completely on 
the internet. The people they identify
as their closest friends are people they only know 
online. Man, they have boyfriends and girlfriends
who they've never met in person. Very common. Gen 
Alpha, it's even more common. And so helping them
get out of that and into a community of actual 
people who care about them and who are interacting
with them in the real world uh is the is a huge 
first step in sort of bringing people back to to
reality. Do you find that pornography is a bigger 
problem than addiction? Um more common? Yeah,
I mean there's an addictive element to 
obviously. Yeah. I I meant I guess. But yes,
then drugs are alcohol. That drugs are alcohol. 
Yes. Really? Yes. Is it interesting? So that's
a huge part of your ministry. It sounds like you 
don't hear people talk about it very often. It's
all men and most women. Most women. Yes. Men don't 
think that, but are you ever shocked? I mean,
by this part of your job, do you ever hear things 
that shock you? Um, so I I can't say I've never
heard something that shocked me, but when I was 
shocked, it was more the particular person. Right.
Right. Um, part of part of what you have to do, 
I think, as a priest, part of what I honestly I
think we all ultimately have to do this is we have 
to become deeply acquainted with the worst parts
of ourselves. Yes, I agree with that. Yes. And if 
you're really acquainted with that and you really
know what you're capable of in a negative 
way given the right or wrong circumstances,
you can understand more, right? And you don't get 
that shock reaction. My my um my dad told me the
story that stuck with me when he was a kid. He was 
watching uh the footage of the Nuremberg trials.
And he asked my grandfather, you know, what do you 
think of all these horrible things these people
did? What do you think of this? And my grandfather 
said there, but for the grace of God I Amen. And
usually people say that to mean like, oh, some 
bad, right? Yeah. Yeah. You know, unfortunate
thing happened to someone. Oh, God preserved me. 
Yeah. Car crash. But he meant without God's grace,
I could have done all those things. I could 
have gone down that same road, right? Um,
and really coming to terms with that, then I think 
is a prerequisite not only for our own repentance,
right, and our own getting free of that, 
but being able to help others, you know,
and and being able to hear where they're coming 
from, right, and understand how they ended up
there and trying to help them, give them the hand 
up out of the ditch. Amazing. Last question, which
is totally unrelated, but it just seems like you 
might know the answer. There's this, and pe most
people will not be interested in this, but there's 
this really interesting um moment in the Gospel of
Matthew where Jesus is talking about sin and how 
it can all be forgiven, but the one sin that can't
be forgiven is sins against the Holy Spirit. Yeah. 
The blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Blasphemy of the
Holy Spirit. Yeah. What does that mean? Yeah. 
So um what happened just before that was that
uh Christ was working miracles and teaching and 
healing y and a certain group of his opponents
among the Jewish religious leadership uh accused 
him of being demonpossessed. Correct. Right. Said
that the spirit by which he was doing this was 
actually one of the names for Baal. Right. Was
actually Bale's bub or whatever. Yeah. Um, and so 
he was casting on demons with demons. Right. And
so that's why it's blasphemy of the Holy Spirit 
is because they're calling the spirit of God a
demonic spirit. Yep. Right. And so if you're not 
willing to accept and submit yourself to God and
to his spirit and what he's doing in the world, 
you you can't be forgiven. You can't you can't
be healed. Right? They were rejecting rather 
than seeing what God was doing in the world,
which was Christ himself, right? And what he 
was doing in the world, rather than seeing
that and trying to get on board with that and 
be healed from their sin, they were rejecting
it. So if you if you reject Christ, if you reject 
God's provision, right, for for our sin and our
wickedness, then you you can't be healed from by 
definition. Right. But yeah, definitionally. Yeah.
Father, thank you for that. That was fascinating. 
Yeah. And great. Thank you for having me. Thanks.