And that's when you see that footage and
he just unloaded.
He says, "I know UFOs are real. [music]
I was inside one. I know they were made
with materials that we can't duplicate.
We can't replicate." First time you ever
hear him like, "Fuck the noise."
My name [music] is Jeremy Corbel. I seek
to weaponize your curiosity. and I see a
white light pop [music] up and stop
about 100 ft in the air.
>> On weaponized, you've broken some
amazing stories. Matthew Brown, Dylan
Borland, Jim Latsky.
>> You told us because you were allowed to
tell us that our government has a UFO in
its possession and has been able to
access the inside of [music] it. Right.
>> Yes.
>> It's a Rubik's cube. It's a
constellation.
It is a variety of investigations with
different hardware, software, and minds
on them to exploit in different ways.
[music] Working on a craft is different
than working with a craft.
Do you think we get another Bob Lazar
coming out near term?
>> We almost got it and he's dead.
Matthew Sullivan was fact going to
testify 2 weeks about before he died, I
think. And that's why people and the FBI
are investigating if his death was
suspicious.
>> Somebody you know
>> Yeah.
>> worked on the reverse engineering
>> Yeah.
>> of a laser weapon system from a downed
Russian asset.
>> NHS.
>> Last name start with T.
>> We're not playing that game in front
[laughter] of camera.
>> I'm going to crack a beer for this part.
I wanted to have a a drink with Jesse.
He's got water cuz he's an alien.
>> So this is back and forth.
>> Rapid fire. Okay.
>> Are you independent
or are you controlled,
>> bro? Let's not get into it, right? You
said you don't want to.
>> Okay,
>> so let's not.
>> We can if you want.
>> Bro, this is going to be so awkward for
your audience.
>> Ignition sequence.
>> How is this possible? [music]
>> Nothing too unusual about that.
Their existence [music] cannot longer be
denied.
Before we dive into this wild episode, I
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the show. Now, back to today's episode.
Jeremy Corbel, Jesse Michaels, this is
an honor and it's been a long time
coming and I'm just so grateful for you
coming on the show. This is really cool.
You uh need no intro, but I'm going to
give you one.
>> Okay.
>> Uh you broke the OG original
whistleblower of the UFO reverse
engineering program, the guy that did it
in, you know, there are guys before him
like Bill Uouse, but in the most
credible,
thorough way. And that's Bob Lazar. He
made an amazing documentary about him
and covered it as thoroughly as anybody.
Obviously, working closely with George
Knap, who broke the story.
>> I was going to say, I did not break that
story. That story got broke because Bob
was about to get broken by opposition.
And George Knap not only broke that
story with Bob, but he carried it along
the way, making sure his reporting was
accurate to this [ __ ] day.
>> That's right. Can I say those words?
>> You can say those. You can say whatever
you want.
>> We broke the [ __ ] barrier. [laughter]
We did. [gasps] And you and George are
close collaborators, longtime
colleagues. You've called him your
mentor. And you guys both host the
podcast Weaponized. Everybody should
check that out
>> on Weaponized. You've broken some
amazing stories. Matthew Brown. I want
to get into I want to get into Dylan
Borland. I want to get into another
person who breached the hole and walked
into a UFO not in some sort of liinal
state in a dream but in a presumably a
hanger an aerospace hanger in Jim
Latsky. Uh so you've broken some of the
most incredible interesting stories when
it comes to UFOs and I'm very excited to
speak to you today.
>> Thank you so much Jesse. [laughter]
>> I'm excited to speak [clears throat] to
you. There are things that people don't
know background things that I think will
be really interesting to people. You
didn't mention David Gush. I want to
talk to you about how that all went
down. He came over to George Naple to
him at a bar with the unclassified ICIG
complaint. And we took so much time
vetting him to make sure and I fought to
make sure he could talk in Congress. And
he'll tell you the exact same thing. I
fought they didn't want him to testify.
And he's one of many they didn't want to
testify. Additionally, what people might
not know is George Knap and I did break
the Commander Fra story, the tic tac
story. We did it quietly on the radio
twice
>> before the 2017 New York Times.
>> Yes, sir. Reverse time machine.
>> Wow.
>> People got to be audio daidex or
whatever. They got to like go in there
and listen. I can pull them up.
>> Well, let's get cuz you just said
something very interesting leaning over
at a bar.
>> Yes. [laughter]
>> With David Grush. So, what happened
there?
>> Okay.
So, there's so many things. Where's your
audience? There's so many things Jesse
and I want to talk about because this is
like actually him and me just talking.
Um, and this is long overdue. So, when
you ask me a question, I'm going to
answer directly and then we can go from
there. What happened there?
What happened is we were in Rocket City,
Alabama.
>> Mhm. Um,
and we were there for SCU because there
were some people that are not public
that we wanted an opportunity to meet
with where it was like we could go
somewhere and have a actual private
in-person meeting. So, we went to the
SCU thing so that we could do a
journalism thing.
I happened to be filming cuz that's why
we were there. I was filming
and I'm pointing the camera at George. I
thought it was just so cute. He's like,
you know, gets to this thing. He's he's
overwhelmed with all this stuff and like
he and I like to just have a beer. I'm
going to crack this at a certain point.
So,
bartender gives him a beer. And as I'm
filming, this guy's blocking my shot. He
like comes in and he whispers to George
Knapp and I'm protected like a pit bull,
right? So immediately I capture I watch
him and turns out that was David Grush
>> and he's essentially we knew about David
but but we we have to vet every single
source no matter how good they sound.
That's our job. You got to vet them,
right? And that and that I'm on cosmic
time. Journalists that rush stories out,
they want to be first. I want to be
first. I want to be right. want to get
it right.
So, he leaned over and I got it all. Lip
readers know what he said. He was kind
of trying to do like he didn't know it
was filming. Now he does. Now he does.
>> What? I'll I'll I'll give you an out.
What did the lip readers say that he
said?
>> You know, essentially all he said was um
my name is David Grush. I'm an intel
officer. You know, a little bit of
history.
>> Sure. Um, I am going to
come I'm going to file or I just did
file actually my official ICIG inspector
uh intelligence committee inspector
general which we should break down for
your audience. A lot of people don't
know what that means.
>> Mhm.
>> Inspector general is like the police.
Let's look at it that way. How I
understand it from a Simpson version,
right? Police. The IC is intelligence
community. Wraps up all the intelligence
communities. At the top of that is ODNI,
office of the director of national
intelligence, but CIA is under them as
well as maybe 16 intelligence agencies
that are acknowledged within the United
States.
So that's what the inspector general of
the intelligence community is, is the
watchdog of the intelligence community.
And that's very relevant. Up until this
minute, we're talking some stuff was in
the news just a few days ago. And I want
to break that down for people. So, David
Grush
provides
in absolute legal capacity
enough information for me and George to
begin. So, we have our little side talks
and we're like, "Well, I'm like, George,
you know, you know what I got to do?" He
goes, "Yeah, you got to take him to a
bar." I go, "But he doesn't drink." Cuz
I asked him, right? All right. We'll get
him anyway. So, I met up with him later
that night and he watched me drink uh a
beers, which is glorious. And I always
like sip them, you know, just to stay on
the level. I think Gary Nolan was there
with us and he did actually take a shot
with me. If he says he didn't, he's
lying. I think he'll admit to it. Gary
Nolan came out to the thing and um I got
to know David a little bit. You know how
you and I like get to know each other a
little bit over time the first time,
right? That's what happened that day.
But then what happened after is what
people don't know, which is how do you
communicate about something sensitive
just like signal smoke signals? How do
you how do you do it? So, we got to a
point where we knew David Gush was not
only legit, but everything he said is
accurate. Not just to the best of his
knowledge that it is accurate. And
there's a difference there. So,
that began the conversation.
What is the end goal here? You're you're
worried, right? Yeah, of course he's
worried. He's a lone standing wolf
telling the world something they had
never heard before, always have
suspected, and our government has
covered it up for all these decades. I'm
getting goosebumps because if I was in
his position,
>> think about the pool of people that know
and then the pool pool of people that
really know anything. It was his job to
investigate black budget programs
surrounding UAP. He did 40 like
depositions, whatever you call them, and
more. This guy has put everything on the
line. Everything. He broke the fold.
Stop for personal gain. First question I
asked him at the bar, you know. I said,
"You got to tell me what I'm going to
find out. What's your dirt? What's the
lowest point in your life? Because if
you're telling the truth, that's what
they're going to come after. PTSD. Bro,
>> I was in combat in Afghanistan 2013. And
you know, I got diagnosed as, you know,
post-traumatic stress disorder, you
know, sought treatment. You know, I got
help, good to go. But there was an
agency that tried to dig that back up
and say, "Oh, Dave still has ongoing
issues, unmitigated. We need to pull his
clearance." And then I had to show my
medical records and be like, "No, dude.
I sought treatment. Still do because
that's what you do." And they they tried
to use that against it. Was crazy.
almost every service person and
non-service people I know can have that.
So they of course attacked that in a
malicious way leaked by intelligence
community to a fake journalist cuz fake
journalists don't pay people by the way.
So that's the story of the beer. It was
the beginning of the potential of having
somebody raise their hand in front of
the world, America, the Congress, the
entire world, and say, "Not only are
UFOs real, but we are reverse
engineering the craft. We've been
exploiting their derivative technologies
for decades. We've made very little
progress, but a little bit." And there
were biologics just means pilots,
beings, nonhuman. And that was the
assessment of that's what he followed up
with. That's what David Gres did. He
popped the balloon and now we're all
just trying to like catch up. And you're
talking about a guy who handled the
presidential daily brief was well
regarded by a lot of his colleagues. I
also in the name of vetting. He was one
of the guys who I got to
>> got on camera first and brought him out.
actually Coldart did, but I but I also
had known him for a couple years before.
>> Yes, sir.
>> And and I met some of his colleagues
>> and they all just spoke about him in
super high regard. Even colleagues who
weren't working with him in an official
capacity investigating UFO programs.
They just worked with him in other
>> capacities um that are prosaically well
regarded. you know, like like handling
the presidential daily brief being in,
you know, the National Geospatial Agency
and they
>> I want you to give his biography and all
that,
>> but next level
>> find somebody that that doesn't like
him.
>> Find out if they tell you I don't like
him, but
>> and then they tell you what he did and
then you're like, uhhuh.
>> I I I have met people who don't like him
and uh it feels like they have ulterior
motives.
>> Right. Right. But you still in the early
in the early stages you you you know
co-worker situation all this you got
people like people don't like them that
kind of thing. You when you're
investigating something you always try
to find the people that want to hurt
somebody or don't like them and see if
they can't deny certain truths that
you're looking to validate. That's one
tactic in journalism. The funny thing is
when I try to kind of corroborate his
claims with, you know, people I meet in
the government, I say, "Hey, like what
about what he's saying isn't true." And
they're like, "Well, a lot of it checks
to be honest." And like, you know, his
pretty above board as far as his
background goes, but like I don't know.
It's just this. And and they use these
like handwavy ways to sort of explain it
away.
>> And I'm like, "Okay, well, why don't you
go a little deeper? Why don't you look
into you know if you have the proper
clearances you know he gave presumably
hundreds of pages to Thomas Mannheim the
IC inspector general
>> not not allegedly whatever word oh you
said
>> I don't know about the amount of pages
but you know it doesn't matter
>> you're right
>> yeah and 40 firhand people that worked
directly on the craft not only that but
uh I have reason to believe that uh
there are factions involved involved in
UFO disclosure and there's a specific
faction that's sort of come out you know
uh and you know is gung-ho about a
certain disclosure to a certain extent
and I think they weren't really uh
anticipating David Grush.
>> Oh no they weren't. [laughter]
>> That was that was a planned thing is how
to move somebody from he's lived in his
whole life you know kind of in you're
not going out there trying to be on
social media. He lived his whole life, I
say, in the shadows, right? This happens
with a lot of these intel guys. They're
not used to the public attention. And
then good or bad, it hurts them or it
makes them feel better. I I tell them
>> praise and blame is all the same, man.
You got to be right with yourself and
your family and your dogs and make sure
this guy got dogs. And make sure that
you're solid because that public
attention when you bring your head out
of the parapit above
it, it can it can really harm people. It
has harmed people.
>> Absolutely. Well, I I also I think it's
really important though to make clear,
you know, upon questioning uh you know,
him and others. I feel like it's very
clear that his sources aren't only the
ones of the people who want disclosure
to a certain line. His disclo his
sources go deeper than that. And so
there's this constant question of
circular reporting. Are you just talking
to the people who did Nids and Bigalow
and all this sort of, you know, external
>> host? Even they don't believe though,
even Dr. Cass doesn't believe we should
handle disclosure. Don't kick a sleeping
dog. That's what I've been told every
time I got to the top of the food chain.
The highest George and I could ever get
to every single time. It's like they
practice that saying. So even people
that you're naming don't think
disclosure is a good thing.
>> Right.
>> So, so imagine the people that are have
their whole lives have been to guard it.
You can't get that out of them. That's
been their job. Protective programs.
It's protective programming. Why do you
think that, you know, when you get to
the inner layers of this program, it
always comes out that like, oh, if you
knew what I knew, you wouldn't want this
stuff out.
>> First of all, you say program, and I I
think it's really important to break
that down. People say the legacy
program, dude, that's a holding name.
like um like
Bill is a holding name for a team of FBI
Frank.
>> It's a group of people,
>> right? So the legacy program when people
say that yeah program there are programs
and they are isolated from one another.
>> Uh so
not every single person was a technician
directly on a craft that David Gush
brought to the ICIG. They had direct
exposure to the program with an S,
right? So that that's really important
to know. We we call it the program, the
legacy program, bro. Many names. Palm is
Apple in French. I was just told by GSP
Apple is Apple, you know. So different
names, same thing. But it's a Rubik's
cube. It's a constellation.
It is a variety of investigations with
different hardware, software, and minds
on them to exploit in different ways.
Working on a craft is different than
working with a craft, right? That's
what's so weird. I'm curious to hear if
this is your experience cuz you've done
this for for for decades longer than me.
But for my experience is I always think,
okay, in a few months I'm going to get
to the bottom of this. I'm going to
figure this, you know, and then and then
a few months go go go go go by and you
learn about this whole new weird aspect
to this.
>> Yeah. How so?
>> Because there are protection programs to
dilute.
>> Sure.
>> To misdirect.
>> Yes.
>> And I've and they're seductive.
>> They're shiny. You want to believe it.
>> You have to be careful of the next
aspects, but it is an onion. There's
layers to it. I didn't mean to say there
aren't. It's just be careful with it.
>> For sure. Well, no. I think you have to
think with extreme epistemic humility
and not epistemic mean
>> not a way of knowing. So, you can't you
can't jump to any sort of conclusion.
You can't snap anything to grid. You
have to sort of say, "Okay, I'm going to
wait for corroboration for that in the
future." But this could be counterintel
like everything. You have to if you
listen Dr. Latsky said on my program
with George, you know, he gave a warning
about two things. One is the protective
programs and and the disinformation that
he knows. He never identified who
somebody lied while their hand was up in
Congress knowingly, I think he was
saying. And then he said that people
believe things because they're shown in
official capacity. But I'm not talking
about stupid nonsense where where people
are saying um Yankee Blue that was a
that was a scop. They're trying to
pretend that existed in the capacity
they say. So he warned us against that.
Dr. Latsky, he also warned us very
strongly if you watch that we're going
to lose the ability to really engage
this topic without the brightest minds
cuz we're not teaching inside
scientifically the younger generations.
And he is scared about that. that
because of the secrecy, which he doesn't
want full secrecy on this, but because
of it, we are going to fall behind with
the American um mechanics of how to
interrogate the UAP problem. Well, and
that's what's really interesting about
his new book, New Insights. At the end
of it, he goes into a bunch of
modalities and frameworks that he
clearly wants spread among young STEM
students all over the country. He gets
into high frequency gravitational waves
and rotate solid state rotating
superconductors for gravitational
manipulation and like really crazy [ __ ]
Just they should hire you because let me
just tell you most people don't read his
book and take from that what he means.
And you you have to translate
complex things into you don't dumb
anything down. you simplify it until the
next question is asked. And he needs to
practice that because his voice, man,
he's done more for he has actually done
more from a knowledge standpoint of
transparency on this than I think most
people throughout history. If you go and
you read his books like you did, but we
need bright minds to look at it. We need
everybody asking the next question. Like
when I started this man, people thought
it was like UFOs
this, right? So now we're at a consensus
reality where it's like, okay, there's a
there there, but what's the question not
being asked
>> and and we're so close.
>> We're so close. Did you find it
frustrating when he was on your podcast
and you asked him about him stepping
inside of a UFO and he said yes, but
then he also was like very clear that he
couldn't say much more than what he had
said in the book.
>> Is you're officially allowed to tell us
that the United States government has in
its possession a craft of unknown origin
and you are able to access the inside.
Is that correct?
The wording that you're you read is
correct. Ah, you're going beyond the
wording.
>> No, I'm not. I'm not. I'm asking you,
did that meeting happen?
>> And is it true?
>> And it's true.
>> Yes.
>> Okay. So, you you're you're telling us
you told us because you were allowed to
tell us
>> that our government has a UFO in its
possession and has been able to access
the inside of it, right?
>> Yes.
>> Why do you think he was able to get that
cleared? the fact that he conspiracy
like why could he get that cleared? And
and
>> I think it's a reasonable question.
>> It's extremely reasonable, but it
creates a conspiratorial mindset, right?
Like, oh, we've distrust government on
this. Why are they allowing it now? It's
like people ask questions like how is
Jeremy and George not in trouble for and
how do they obtain such a variety of
different products from argument that I
I'll call sensitive most likely right
first of all about me and George it's
called [ __ ] journalism and and if and
if you if you are not seeing that you
are looking at the wrong thing.
>> So with Latsky,
why you asked a bunch of questions
there. So why
>> did they let him?
>> Well, you know, not everybody at a
doctor desk, you know, is is equal,
>> you know, and you can submit a book in
one way and say it's fictitious or you
can submit it and say it's this is fact.
And he did the fact way, right? It's
harder. Took a long time. George knows
how long it took with with each book.
Why did they let him? I know for a fact
there are people in the mechanisms of
government that let things get through
because they're on our side.
>> Truth. I suspect that's why it's not
some big plan. Dude, if this was
planned, I would kick back, relax, and
stop and not worry because then we've
got a plan situation. This is Vietnam.
Everything has been provoked. It's been
fought for millimeter by millimeter for
years and decades. So what you get from
him is the absolute factual information.
It it's not theoretical. It's factual.
And and so and he says when he doesn't
know stuff.
>> Yeah. He's a senior DIA rocket scientist
with a long history. And I I think it's
important for people to realize there's
probably a war going on inside the
government. And there are probably
elements of the quote unquote legacy
program that want itself
outed or partially outed. Like there are
members of, you know, inside these
programs that think the way they're
being run is ridiculous. That's why you
had the vice president of Loheed Martin
trying to get the craft and hardware
that they have obtained a long time ago
out the back door into the sunlight
through the front door and studied that
way. They saw the writing on the wall
and it was being facilitated
by Dr. Colin Keller, Dr. James Latsky,
bunch of people they worked with. That's
the truth. What you just said. There are
a lot of people that realize there's no
right. There's no purpose to hold back
from human beings the ultimate truth,
whatever that might be. I got some
guesses. You know, maybe there are um
UFOs and they're not from here. Whatever
that means. I mean, why would you build
a Ferrari not to go fast? Why would you
make something that appears that it
could travel amongst the stars if it
doesn't? And that gives you a sense of
at least one aspect of origin. Yes.
>> Of course, there might be more.
>> So, yeah, dude. I look man, this is my
favorite topic and you and I got
>> so many things we can talk about, but I
agree with what your analysis is.
>> Well, I want to touch on something that
you just mentioned, which is um the VP
at Lockheed Martin. His name was Jim
Ryder. That's right.
>> And he gave a very interesting speech
called the garment of the gods. And it's
very strange. about the veil thinning
and he talks about extrensory perception
and consciousness but he's a VP at
Loheed Martin space systems who's very
well respected
>> the idea that everything from spoons to
stones are conscious is gaining academic
credibility who wrote that one of the
most senior physicists in Canada it's
the only conclusion we have everything
is conscious we're just discussing
amount and levels
>> I find him and Latsky's language around
this topic very interesting Latsky talks
about Plato 's cave and consciousness
and
>> it affects you
>> to know something this big and hidden.
It's like um
>> if you've ever taken a psychedelic,
right? You've seen this world around you
at all times, but you are not initiated
to what that world is or means. So you
might see like a tie-dye or dancing
bears of the grateful dead but you as
soon as you breach the whole of that
craft you you see a world that has
always been hidden to you but has always
been there and that can it has disturbed
people to their core and then they start
getting angry that that other people
don't get to know and what this goes
back to your question what was it
frustrating why did he not go outside
the parameters of his book why was he
allowed to say that told you why is
allowed to say it most likely.
>> Yeah. You can see on my I hold my
emotions like right here. You could see
I'm frustrated. I'm not trying to hurt
the guy. I mean, you know, I'm sure they
all got mad at me at different times.
I'm just pressing because I know people
want to know and he can't say the words
that aren't printed because he's the
kind of guy you want protecting Secrets
for America. He's the exact kind of guy.
You know,
>> it's it's so it's so interesting and
it's so messy because
>> Yes. It's like ideally if this thing is
like a portal or a gateway the object is
uh to a new sense of the actual true
nature of reality.
>> This should be for humanity. It should
be for everybody.
>> What is humans human beings knowledge
and information we we own that right? It
is. So having that held back, you know,
you know the reason, you know, okay,
America first weaponization, strategic
surprise, strategic advantage,
technological advantage. Like I get that
now that's some like stone age thinking
when we're in the Jetsons. You know that
we're past that now. So but that is I
understand what so they need to formally
acknowledge the known facts, formally
acknowledge the unknown facts. They
really need to define the terms and
boundaries and parameters and topography
of what we're looking at. Because
if they don't do that, if they don't, if
they give us like this partial
disclosure of stuff, then we get kind of
lost with what it means to be human. We
get lost with understanding our
position in what it means to exist. And
there might be questions that are
unasked there that are profound that
have profound answers that we just
haven't like eating the mic.
>> No, you're good.
>> We just haven't been able to ask. And
how do we evolve if we don't have the
right questions? So, we need you don't
need to tell somebody how to make a
nuclear bomb, but you need to tell them
nuclear physics exists and you can study
it and try to protect that part. So, we
got to get to the point where we're all
at a consensus reality that matches up a
little bit better with actual reality.
And if we if we do that, then we're
going to have questions. And those
questions, the answers might be a little
disturbing if you're a person that gets
disturbed. Um, but it will be the truth.
And the truth, that's what's going to
help us evolve. And so that's why I'm so
upset with the secret keeper. [laughter]
>> Well, it makes sense that they wouldn't
disclose it because on the one hand,
you're kind of seeding your authority to
this higher thing that's flying with
impunity at your most around your most
sensitive sites around your nuclear
installations tampering with the nukes
themselves. So you don't want to admit
that if you're in some position of
governmental authority and then you
don't know as far as you know what could
confer a tactical advantage to the
adversary. Maybe you haven't figured it
out but it's this weird cat and mouse
game theory thing visav v China and
Russia. And so it's this weird thing
where they have this asymmetric
knowledge on the nature of reality which
they should not have any right to visav
normal people or scientists but their
incentives make it so that you know
they're just not going to go full open
kimono anytime soon.
>> Well don't go so fast or so quick.
[laughter] I mean you know what are we
fighting for?
>> Unless we can rest it out of them.
>> We can provoke.
>> Uhhuh. We you you can't just how you
can't give anybody anything cuz cuz all
you can do you put it in their hand but
it's an object. You can't give anybody
anything. You can lead by example. You
can't take anything. It's not just one
person's thing. You need to provoke and
they need to give. And when they give,
you need to receive. And that's that. So
I'm not trying to be um oblique here. Um
it it is an ontological issue. this
thing and ontological I believe means uh
relating to the existence of of being an
existence itself relating to the
existence of being right is that what it
means yeah
>> so
this is the UFO thing is a symbol
they're things a lot deeper than UFOs I
suspect
>> I agree I think it's the tip of the
iceberg
>> yeah but it's a symbol it's a symbol of
freedom of thought
>> because if you if we can talk about it
with the right words and factual
information. Then we have freedom of
speech. Freedom of speech causes debate.
Debate causes thought. Then we have
freedom of thought. It's [ __ ]
beautiful, man. What are we fighting
for? [laughter]
>> It is beautiful. And I hope we're on the
verge of a a paradigm shift because I
mean, how do you feel now that the
Department of War has a website with
more hits than, you know, people in
America? And uh you know we have stuff
coming out and you can say that the
stuff often is repackaged repurposed
things that have already kind of existed
in the open source world. I find it
hilarious that that is what's making you
know the Citadel scientific gatekeepers
like Neil Degrasse Tyson take it
seriously is the fact that it gets a
stamp of approval from authority. So it
kind of shows that they were never doing
science in the first place. But how do
you feel? Do you feel do you feel
vindicated? Do you think it's going to
keep going and we're going to get more
or how do you feel about where we're at?
>> Yeah, I I don't
self-reflect
when I'm when I'm fighting when I'm
going forward. That's like the death
gargle. If you're doing martial
athletics is thinking about what you
just did wrong or you know what what
happened yesterday, you need to be fully
forwardfacing and forwardlooking.
So what I feel is optimistic but I'm an
optimist you know but now there's
tangible evidence that we should all
have optimism but don't get complacent
in that optimism optimism is only
powerful if there's action behind it. So
what we need to do in every single way
every person we need to fight for what
we want. If we want truth we have to
fight for truth. If we want inner peace
we have to fight for inner peace.
Counterintuitive but it's true. Okay.
People ask me all the time, "What can I
do?" It's like they feel powerless. I'm
not this. I don't have this a
microphone. I'm starting a podcast. Bro,
>> I figured it out.
>> Um,
use your voice. Now, how do you do that?
I talked to some grade school teachers.
I talked to some high school teachers.
And I talked to some professors at major
universities all in one weekend, right?
They were all there at the McMinman's
UFO Fest, which is the funnest thing in
the world. You got to come with me next
time. You get a golf cart and a six-ack
of beer.
>> It sounds epic.
>> And I was put in jail one morning, and
that's a true fact. It's hilarious. So,
>> what you can do
is you can show other people your
curiosity. If you have a a class, you
none of us had the answers. You got a
class, teach it. What do you know? How
do we separate critical thinking? the
average singular person with nothing.
They have five followers on um Twitter
and they're like, "What do I do?"
There's a woman that came up to me,
she's a little bit older. I'm like, "Oh,
don't worry if you have five followers.
Say what you're thinking and tag every
representative that is fighting for
this. Tag the Department of War. Tag at
Energy." That's the Department of
Energy. Tag them. And here's why I know
that's what you should do. Because I get
calls from people that saw the tags
>> and it affects them personally and it
starts building. So imagine if everybody
did that. Rep Luna, great job. Keep
fighting. Don't stop. Oh my gosh. People
read that stuff and they go, I mean, I
notoriously don't because it's toxic for
me. There's organized attempts at that,
you know,
>> but that's what the average person can
do. If you're a scientist, look at it
from a scientific perspective. If you're
a philosopher, look at it from a
philosophic perspective. teach it, pass
it on, show people your curiosity, and
they'll be weaponized just like you and
me. Jesse,
>> let's go.
>> Yeah.
>> Um, I want to talk about how you got
into UFOs, which is described very well
in this new movie, Sleeping Dog.
>> The first person that that I ever
pointed a camera at and was like, "Oh,
[ __ ] It's like a Rubik's cube." You
know, I got to I got to I got to get
this person talking. It's really hard.
[music] Was John Lear. It started uh
where a lot of people have to start with
UFOs, which is you have to start with
the the widest possible filter. And for
you, that was embodied in a man named
John Lear.
>> He taught me how to keep my mind open
but not let my marbles fall out because
he he was spilling marbles sometimes.
[laughter] And it was I'm going to crack
a beer for this part. I wanted to have a
a drink with Jesse. He's got water cuz
he's an alien. [laughter]
There's my beer.
So, I like you. I'm not going to repeat
what people can watch in a movie, right?
I like you. I think like everybody who
gets interested in something other than
themselves, you know, um they look
outward
and the ancient Greeks used to say that
the stars were
pin pricks from the beaks of
hummingbirds.
So, that was a beautiful cosmology. And
then all of a sudden, science stepped in
and goes, "Actually, it's [ __ ] cooler
than that, right?
>> That sounds cooler than science to me."
>> No, I don't know. I I the orbiting
planets, galaxies. I'm Come on.
>> I'm going to take the beaks of
hummingbird pinprints, but
>> Okay, [laughter]
so I love hummingbirds, man. They're
[ __ ] fantastic.
>> They're amazing.
>> What they can do. Anyway, um, so I got
curious
and I've said this before, you know, I
heard
George Knap's voice interviewing a guy
named Bob Lazar on the radio.
They were replaying it on one station,
probably K Rock or something. I was a
dumbass kid. I don't know what station,
you know, I wasn't really tuned in to
the whole Coast to Coast thing. I was 13
and something really happened to me that
day and I I people make jokes when I say
my my curiosity was weaponized. So I
started making jokes. It's like when
people call me you know [ __ ] you forname
online. My family all now calls me
forname. It's like you have to embrace
the thing right.
>> So what I embraced in that moment is
that Babazar said it's not a reactionary
propulsion system.
It's a I think he said it's a field
propulsion system.
you're falling where you need to get,
>> which is the story of my life
>> actually, which is hilarious, but you're
like falling to it. And that just like
flipped this switch in me and I was
like, "Holy [ __ ] if what he's saying is
true about travel, then distance no
longer matters." cuz everybody told me
um I wasn't into UFOs and stuff but when
it came up when you're a young kid it's
like all the scientists like the Neil
Degrass Tyson well there's no way life
is probably way out in the universe but
don't be silly they can't be coming here
the distances are so vast you'd have to
travel the speed of light almost for 36
years to get to our closest planet all
this [ __ ] and I thought damn they
really got it figured out unless Lazar
was right so I was like because from
rockets to roller skates. It's um push
something out the back, you go forward
called reactionary propulsion system. So
all of a sudden if you're falling into
time space, distance is irrelevant. And
I was sitting there as a dumbass kid
thinking, "Oh my god, is this guy
telling the truth?"
>> That's what I was thinking cuz I thought
then obviously it's not hummingbirds.
Obviously, there are tons of planets
that are in the Goldilock zones in these
hundreds of billions of galaxies, not
just our galaxy. And I'm like, is he
telling the truth? And then I went and,
you know, just like met up with my
girlfriend, started doing jiu-jitsu more
and like just dropped it like it's hot.
But I never forgot that moment, that
feeling. It taught me that authority is
something we bestow upon people, not
something that they truly are. They can
have more knowledge than you. That's
what the word sensei means. Is born
before. Knowledge in you is born before
knowledge in me. So you're my sensei at
>> this. Right? So everybody's teaching
each other. Um a sensei is somebody that
he has or she has certain knowledge
that's born before. you pass it on one
generation otherwise and it's gone cuz
it's a physical art. It's not written
down. It's transmitted physically. You
have to actually choke someone out,
right? So, so to to just back up cuz I
get so excited about this moment. I feel
it as if it was yesterday. Um
that's how it really got started.
But I was a kid. I was sure I was just
going to do the martial athletics thing
my whole life. I didn't think I was
smart enough to do other things. And
then I thought, well, maybe I am, but
this is what I like doing. So, I'm going
to do what I like cuz if I do what I
like, I'm going to get good at it cuz
I'm going to practice it 10,000 times.
Then all hell broke loose. And this is
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sent you.
because of an illness, I couldn't
physically train. So, I said, "What am I
interested in?" Fell into art. Fell into
then getting a camera. That was cool to
see that you did the that Sharon Tate
exhibit. That was so that was amazing. I
I like didn't realize how deep and rich
of an art background that you had. And
and then that was kind of an expression
of the pain of the illness that you fell
into.
>> Dude, you learned that from the movie.
>> Yeah.
>> [ __ ] I I did.
>> Okay. And it really the movie is really
good and I recommend everybody watch it
because it really
>> it helped me understand your psychology
>> and where you're coming from, what
you're motivated by.
>> And I think uh UFO Space now, you know,
I didn't I didn't need that from the
movie cuz we've gotten to know each
other.
>> But UFO Space can be a hall of mirrors.
And if somebody doesn't know you
personally, I think uh it's a really
good way to kind of get to know you.
>> That's what that's what the kid sold me
on, you know, that and the self-defense
mechanism of showing my personal life.
But um yeah, but I think that moment you
were talking about was Okay, I've got
this camera. First time I pointed it at
somebody, they spilled the beans. It was
my grandmother, right? And she told me a
story about my family that she had kept
hidden from everybody and she was like
90 or something. And I recorded it. I'm
like, "Holy shit." So I pointed it at
John Lear because I was like, who can I
get to that seems to have these wild
ideas say crazy? He wasn't crazy at all.
Very sane man. You know, CIA pilot did
some incredible stuff. One of the
youngest people ever to climb the Matter
Horn. The dude has had so many life
experiences people don't know.
>> Won a bunch of flight records as well.
Like really amazing esteemed pilot,
>> bro. So he called me back finally
and it was so like come over Las Vegas,
Nevada. Y'all will be here. It was the
weirdest call and I [ __ ] packed my
bags and I looked at my wife and there's
a scene in the movie I know the kid my
voice is a horse. That was after that
first trip.
>> The first thing I Michael just I said
when you make it when you tell this
story don't put anything visually out of
order to say it exactly like it
happened. first time I rolled up to to
his gate filming it like that's all real
exactly in the order it happened. So
because of his openness to me
I mean he didn't tell me [ __ ] about UFOs
at first but he was testing me right but
um that's how it started and then I
would just see these these floods of
people over the years just come into his
house. He'd let everybody in. They tell
sometimes the craziest and you could
tell they weren't wrapped so tight
stories and he just listened like like
he cared because he did care. And then
other people come in and they were CIA,
FBI, NSA, um amazing pilots. I mean just
all these people, this world of people
that I would never have had contact with
because I had a camera. They would talk
with me. It look they mistook me as a
authority figure with that camera. But
but what John did was he had no filter
and that's the trap.
>> The trap is you belief
and actual functional reality start to
blur when you have heard it all.
>> Yeah.
>> He did start talking about soul catchers
on the moon and all.
>> I can't I can't verify his craziest
theor his his wildest theory.
>> Yeah.
>> I can't verify.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, uh, what did he
tell you that did check? Because I think
it's important to caveat about him. He
broke the F-17 to George Knap. He
actually knew a lot about advanced
aviation well ahead of anybody in the
kind of civilian world and was kind of,
you know, hanging out at Dreamland at
Area 51 before anybody knew it was even
real. So, he definitely knew some real
stuff. Bro, I have original photographs
from 1977
Groom Lake
level with a chain going across.
John Lear drove out there many times
back in the day when security was
different. He came I I I'll show you the
photographs. It's amazing. He wrote to
me, "Let's It's Groom Lake, you [ __ ]
Let's go Wednesday because Wednesday was
the famous night nights they would fly
the sport model. So what he did was he
sat there drinking beers on the back of
his pickup truck with a buddy of his who
I know and he snapped a bunch of photos
in a row of Groom Lake at lake level.
You've never seen a photo like this
before unless I put it out or lear I
don't know if it's leaked online but
I'll I'll give you a print. Wow. Then
what he did because it's John [ __ ]
Lar and he's so and they knew his dad
William P. Lear, inventor of the
Learjet, Learjet, Atrack stereo, became
Motraola, his company, the whole crazy
[ __ ] Worked on some amazing stuff with
people that you talk about sometimes. By
the way,
>> and Brown,
>> not saying [ __ ] you're going to talk
about what you know will be you be my
sensei on that. So, what he does cuz
he's so John Lair. He takes his
panorama. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.
He sees the dust trails in the desert.
You see the dust trails of the What the
[ __ ] is this guy doing out there?
daylight sitting on the back of
tailgating with a beer. Right.
He takes the 35mm film thing out of the
camera, hides it under his ashtray,
puts in another, does an identical set
of photos, and when they came, they
said, "John, okay, well, you can't be
here." And you know, get we're
confiscating the camera. He goes, "No,
it's my camera. We're taking the film."
They took the film and left. John drives
home.
That's how I have a photo of Groom Lake
at lake level with a chain that I will
give you a print of.
>> Whoa. Crazy. The 77. What? 19. That was
the year I was born.
>> Oh my god.
>> He did that.
>> That's crazy.
>> But what did he tell me that was true?
>> He did break the story of the stealth
fighter, but it was Ned Day. It was
George Knap's um mentor in journalism.
Shout out to Ned Day. Big sip here.
Shout out to Ned.
>> Mhm.
>> I've learned about Ned from George.
>> So,
John had some credibility.
He also knew a lot about CIA operations
in the um when they were flying drugs
cuz he'd never ask what's what was in
his flight. He'd fly anywhere at any
time. And he gave me all these like this
footage of him going in like these tiny
little runways made of dirt flying for
the CIA.
>> Little Ron Contra situation. He was
moving drugs a lot of the time.
>> He says, "I don't know. I'm just a bus
driver." You know,
>> there's a famous photo of him with G.
Gordon Litty and like you've got you're
like who this guy's in with like the
spookiest of spooks,
>> right? And that's why people think
people would try to influence him in the
negative ways and maybe they did, but
most people like me loved. There's
something about John Lair. He had a
laugh. I've only heard one other human
being on planet Earth. And one day I
hope to achieve this laugh. It is the
most joyous belly laughing almost like
wink at the same time. You're on to
something. You're on to something. It's
this is this really inspiring laugh.
>> Um so he rolled deep with some people.
So he verifi verifiably gave good
evidence um about a whole bunch of
terrestrial stuff to the news station in
Las Vegas at Kas. He had credibility
there. he was running for senator or
state senator at the time or something.
Um, and then he walks in with this UFO
madness and nobody Ned Day, George's
mentor, he said, I think he said, "If if
this was true, I would have already
known about it, John."
>> George is like peeking over as like a
young reporter, you know, and he's like,
"Hey, John, I I'll check out the files."
And that's how it started. So that's why
Did I answer your question?
>> You did. Sometimes people say I don't
answer questions. I'm just pumped.
>> No, that was a thorough answer. Describe
your first time meeting Bob Lazar.
>> Oh wow.
You know what that's like.
>> I now am It's so surreal. I mean, I'm
honored to have had that experience
myself.
>> It teaches you a lot. You use the word
honored a lot. Like um you know how we
all have the same amount of time so
people choose if they want to spend it
together, right? It should always be an
honor with somebody you're hanging with
because you're both choosing in spaceime
with limited amount of life. But anyway,
so first time meeting Bob Lazar. Well,
first of all, reverse the tape. You know
that I wanted to know if he's a liar or
not. That was the only thing I wanted to
know. If he was not a liar, then I mean
it's so like then distance doesn't
matter. That's in my brain. Caveman
brain. That's what I thought. I want to
know he's a liar because the distance
doesn't matter. That's my line of
thinking. So, John kept telling me that
George Knapp won't talk to anybody cuz I
was trying for years to get to George.
Um Bob Lazar, there's no way. Um but he
does, you know, John John always wanted
him to come for like a birthday party
his always had these big birthday
parties. Really wanted to brag that
Lazar was his friend, right? So he kept
kind of telling me, you know, maybe
Lazar will show up this year. And I'm
always like [ __ ] call him then, you
know? I'm like, I would love to just No
cameras at a So, what happened was
answer your question.
One day I'm just filming with John like
I did every day for years or every week
at least. I'd go out there every two
weeks. So,
oh god, what happened? Oh, and he goes,
"Lazar's coming over." The first thing
he says to me, I go, "Oh shit." Cuz I
got my cameras already all set up. We're
doing our daily thing.
>> How wellknown was Bob at the time?
>> Right. See, it's very different now.
>> Yeah,
>> it's very different. So niche,
>> right?
>> So like [laughter] nobody knew his name
unless you're a UFO nerd on the parinet
that called it, right? [clears throat]
So like a very popular city councilman
or something like [laughter]
less than that. But in UFO land, sure,
>> he was UFO Jesus, you know, he was the
Messiah, you know, the the unwanted. He
like he didn't want the attention. is
like the weirdest conundrum of a guy. I
called him the the Bigfooted UFOs. Is he
Is he real? Does he even really exist?
So, my first experience meeting him was
like, first I go total respect mode. I'm
like, I can't I'm not even a filmmaker,
never made a film, putting away all the
cameras. I don't want him to feel like
he's walking into a bear trap. And I'm
like, John, just talk with your friend.
But I knew that all that was out there
were these tiny little clips of him,
these small little hard to find
interviews, and that the majority, 99%
of what you read by getting to know Le
and all this, it wasn't true. So, here's
my pitch. He comes in. I'm just looking
at him, you know, um, really good to
meet you. Yeah, I'm making a movie. Uh,
I think um,
Bob,
when I got a respectful moment of
silence, Bob, um, I don't know if you're
telling the truth, but I do know from
knowing John, the entire world within
this UFO
little silo is saying things that aren't
true about you. and and 3 minutes of you
talking would completely change the
dynamic of um the ratio of what people
know because it's just not out there.
Do you mind if I push record and ask you
a couple questions about UFOs? And
that's when you see that footage and he
just unloaded.
>> I know there are alien craft here
[music] from another planet. I now I saw
other ones, but I was inside one. I know
it was not made on Earth. I know it was
made with materials that we cannot
fabricate. We cannot duplicate and we've
never been able to. I know it uses a
power source that's so advanced that we
could only dream of something along
those lines. And the energy density on
it is phenomenal.
>> And I and I was just looking at him
like, "Holy fuck."
First time you ever hear him like, "Fuck
the noise.
So, so, so I thank him. He sits down
with Lear. I never release this footage.
Michael put it in the movie because I
gave him 20 years of my footage and he
just used it and it's he's with Lear and
he's arguing with Lear about Lear's
crazy ideas, right? And and and so you
see Bob all the way back then being like
the rational
dude. The grays were controlling the
soul sucker on the moon and when you die
it sucks up your soul and it gets
reprocessed. Unless the grays steal it.
I mean, come on, John. What the what the
[ __ ]
>> And it just it just it just what it was
like was like, "Okay, now I really got
to find out."
>> Well, he's he's a walking mind [ __ ]
because he
>> Well, that's a cool term.
>> It is. cuz you I so I have the same
motivation as you and as you know and I
and and I you know as of a few years ago
probably netted out more skeptical than
believer when it came to his story. Not
necessarily the like surface level
details but I thought maybe there was
sort of like a cover for something else
or something.
>> How do you know the information is all
that you whatever information you have
you have to base your assessment
>> 100%. And I at the, you know, at the
time and even now have immense respect
for Jacques Ble, sort of godfather of
UFO research. And he had said some
negative things. I pushed him on it once
at my ranch alone. He and me were
sitting there and I love him with all my
heart. This is nothing negative, but I
pushed him. I don't want to get into it,
but like what where did that come from
specifically? Why do you say that? How
do you know that? Do you know that? Are
you just saying that? And I'm just
saying,
>> yeah,
>> we are friends,
>> but I stick with I stick where I stand
on that one.
>> Okay. It wasn't compelling, but but
dude, he's incredible and everything
else
>> is compelling. But that that idea of
belie
>> but you stress you wanted to know where
he was coming from. You felt
>> is there something I don't know,
>> right?
>> Tell me. I knew where it all came from.
The I know exactly specifically who it
came from, why they said it, what their
secondhand knowledge is that all in the
scientific world they start spreading
around that somehow. So, you know that
he's a marriionette, you know,
>> right? He's some sort of MK Ultra like
he
>> [ __ ]
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> But but I I I do want to address one
thing, which is that I did have and do
have a secret, and that's for me. And
what that is is why I knew that Bob
Lazar was telling it as it is. Meaning a
facility like that exists, exactly
what's inside of it exists. I wanted to
find out if Lazar was actually there and
saw it for his own eyes or if he was
lying and being used as a marionette. So
that day I knew for the first time cuz I
asked him certain questions. I knew that
it was worthy of deep deep deep
investigation. It took me
>> So you already knew about the existence
of S4.
>> I say that in I say that in the movie
that there was a lot of people knew
about the existence of S4 theoretically.
>> Uhhuh. What I'm trying to
>> It sounds like you had a pretty good
source.
>> What I'm What I'm trying to do is go as
far as I can, but we have to respect one
thing as a journalist. When someone says
to you, um,
this is my this is for you to know, not
to say. If you break that one [ __ ]
time, you're done.
>> Yeah.
>> Nobody will ever trust you. And it's so
tempting sometimes.
>> I'm just trying to say as cleanly. I'm
not being oblique. I'm like, you know,
it's a bright room. Sunglasses off. I'm
trying to tell you what I can while
respecting my oath.
>> Yeah, of course.
>> And that is that I didn't go.
>> You had good reason to believe.
>> Yes. I was I had very solid good reason
>> to know that Lazar was correct. Now, was
he there? Right? Was he there? And did
he see it? You know, cuz that's another
trick that's played when you're spilling
information, like use people as
emissaries to propagate a truth or a
lie. So, I hope I explained that to the
satisfaction of your amazing and
beautiful audience. And you know, that's
that I had cause to want to bullet test
Lazar. And then meeting him was the
first step to me saying, "Okay, this guy
is not a liar, but I need to really find
out."
Legend has it that in 1943, the Navy
tried to teleport a ship in what's known
as the Philadelphia experiment, and it
worked. Sort of. It disappeared,
reappeared, and then half the crew got
atomically fused into the ship's walls.
Others just vanished. No one was where
they were supposed to be. Talk about a
breakdown in communication.
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this guy is not a liar, but I need to
really find out.
>> Yeah. And I think something I want to
talk to you about um is is the fact that
you really corroborated his presence at
S4 Area 51 because you
>> you spoke to some other people that one
of the pilots that flew um
>> the Blackbird,
>> really cool [ __ ] plane. Um, yeah. I
mean, look, in so many ways, not public,
but also public. I got one dude on
Ancient Aliens to give his testimony
that, you know, he saw Lazar there, you
know,
>> wild.
>> Yeah. Getting off getting on a bus. So,
it doesn't prove flying saucers, but it
proves Lazar was there. He was there.
Yeah.
>> Oh, dude. There's so many things like
that. That's that's what I always say
when people are like, "Do you believe
him?" I'm like, I 100% at this point
think he was there and I 100% think S4
exists and then I'm high probability on
the story, you know, but like I can't I
can't say I'm 100%, you know, but after
spending time with him, why I say he's a
walking mind [ __ ] is I asked him all my
most skeptical questions and the dude
didn't bat an eye. He was cool with me
just hurling everything. And to him,
he's probably annoyed, right? cuz he
hears all these things adn nauseium and
this is like you know one of his last
kind of media tour. Maybe he does
something else but as you know he hates
media and he's just getting like all
these skeptical questions thrown at him
from this kid he just met and uh and he
was handled all of them gracefully and
he's a great uh he's a great human being
and he's a fighter. People don't know
that like he is he's very strong. Um he
he does he just doesn't want uh more
drama in his life and he doesn't want to
cause more pain which I can relate to to
his family to his beautiful wife and all
animal
>> he's had five heart attacks too since
>> you allowed to say that
>> yeah it was on it was on our episode he
talked about it publicly
>> okay so yeah there's a lot of person
>> he said it's just from stress he said
his arteries are clear I've had five
heart attacks from stress
>> and and other things from stress and um
look man I I really try to keep the
personal stuff away because I've had
problems with that. Um, but there was
something in what you said. Um, just
kind of meeting him, it's it's not good
enough to say, well, I met him and I can
tell he's he's he's not a liar. No, I
wanted tangible actual actual proof, you
know, and oh yeah, I found that. And so
the question then becomes, do you
protect this guy? Do you blow up his
life? Dude, I started making the movie.
Um, here's what happened. I never sign
anything with anybody and I don't make
them do it. Right? So, I show Lazar the
movie and I go, "Look, here's the deal,
man.
I'm not a filmmaker, but this is I I
want people to see who you are. It's not
about proving anything. I just want them
to see what how I've gotten to know you
after all these years, right? We've
become friends. You've let me in your
life." Um, so look at it through through
that lens. And I I I said it's a gamble
right now. You're so terrorized by
anytime you say something, people twist
it and they get angry. At that time,
Jesse, people were really angry at Bob.
He was, you know, it was attack, attack,
attack. Now he's like with you up on
stage in Austin and everybody's
cheering.
>> Everybody loves him.
>> But imagine the risk. So I say, look, I
don't know if anybody's going to pick up
this movie. I don't know, but watch it.
Think about it. And I And you can ask
him. I said this. I said, "If you want,
I'll scrap the whole thing." I didn't
have you sign anything. You know, this
is to me, I think important.
So, I give him the movie with his wife
and they're the popcorn like, "Let's
watch it." And there's like excitement
like, "Oh, this is pretty neat." You
know, and he'll call me right after.
call me right after
24 hours goes by. Not a call.
48 hours. I mean, I have like the
receipts like my butt. I thought it was
no funny.
>> So, I just calmed myself. I said, "Okay,
okay. What's going to go on?" He calls
me and he, you know, he gets that
[clears throat] like, you know, he he's
struggling cuz he knows how many years I
spent and he knows that I'm I want to do
this. I want the world to see this. And
it was just like no.
And I go, okay, well, what? So, here I
am being calm. I can actually do that,
by the way. I can instantaneously be
calm, [laughter] but I don't like to.
So, I calm myself. I say, "Okay, what
what what did you not like about the but
why did you show?" He didn't yell, but
he's like, "What? Why did you do this?"
And I go, "Oh, let me walk you through
why I did that scene. why I showed that
personal part of your life. Oh, well
that makes sense. Okay, I'm winning
here. I'm winning. You know, I'm like,
okay, well, what else? We went through
the thing
and he to his credit, he's like, okay,
you know, you made a you made a good
movie. I Okay. And I'm like, so that was
the moment where the world almost didn't
see it. And and how that would have
changed things is that people would not
have seen who he was as a human and he
would have been this totem pole that you
could just put gasoline on and light it
on fire or worship and you should do
neither. He'd probably be relegated to
like deep corners of the web like like
Reddit forums and [ __ ] like people
wouldn't really I mean because then you
guys went on Rogan and that is the most
viewed Rogan episode of all time. I
think it has like 66 or 67 million views
or something.
>> People hungry. People hungry for this.
To Joe's credit, it also took an act of
God to get Bob there. And
>> like Joe um had asked me about my first
film, Patient 17. He actually the first
>> DM I ever did was Joe taught me via it
was a it was a a public post. You
probably find it. And I was like, I
don't know how or something. And he
goes, dude, you have to follow me. I'm
like, oh. So I follow and then you
learn. And I never sent a DM. And it was
about patient 17. So it was like this
weird thing. It was a movie I did
before.
>> I want to talk about patient 17, but
>> and um so then Joe, to his absolute
credit, kind of kept tabs, I think, on
the stuff going along the way. We
weren't friends or anything at that
time. It was like, you know, you you
never know where you stand. But he just
asked me out of the blue one day how I
remember it. He he asked me, "Can you um
ask Bob and you guys come on the show?"
And I don't I don't know if it was what
the size of the show or anything. I'm
not following I'm not tracking that
stuff. I knew it was big though. So the
thing is I said, "Joe, it was a phone
call." I'm like I I'm like
like literally a month ago, you know,
two months ago this came out. He said he
would do one interview. One. And I took
him on Larry King. That was like the one
thing he would do to promote them. Just
sit next to me. The one thing. And I
said, "I don't want to do that." But Joe
said these magic words to me. He goes,
"Can you just ask him?"
And before I talked, I thought, "Can I?
I can. Okay, I can." So, yes, I can.
Absolutely. Cuz I would love it. I would
love for him to be heard more, right?
not just about the film, just Bob, you
know, and and how cool have somebody
else who can interrogate him, you know
what I mean? And so, so then
>> and in a long form, you know, Larry King
was I love, you know, great great
legend, but he's got the suspenders and
it's like this legacy sort of format,
you know, Rogan's natural.
>> Yeah. Unnatural. Yeah. Rogan's got the
long form, you know, and for people to
build trust, that's really important.
>> But I wasn't thinking about nothing. I
was just like in this um world state
where it's like UFO Vietnam and
someone's asked me to pull this guy back
out somewhere to go on. It was months
after the initial movie came but right
before Netflix got it. So basically the
funny thing is is that um I mean it's
hilarious. I was I was he goes he goes
is he a disc jockey? Bob said I go Bob
look George and I are coming out because
we have a a premiere or a screening um
in Michigan. So, we're coming out. Let's
just talk about it then. So, I I
remember texting Joe like, "Um, okay,
I'm going to need you you to ask him
because I've I've really tried to do all
this stuff with Bob, you know, and I
don't want to." And so, then there's
this really funny phone call and George
is standing over here and we I said,
"Bob, just get on the phone with Joe,
dude. He's a good dude, dude. Just get
on the phone." Like, you can say no, but
just hear the dude out. You know how
people Bob, you know, fill in the voids
on you. Just don't fill in the voids.
And I was like, so I get him on the
speaker phone and and Joe talks to him.
And I remember Bob saying, "Okay, I'll
I'll think about it." That's a win,
right?
I hope it works. You know, you know, I
hope it works. I would love to see that.
George snapped a photo at that exact
minute. And behind us is this '8s poster
of like John Lear's face with Lazar and
Nap. And there's me and Bob leaning
over. And that's the moment that really
like Bob Lazar was about maybe to tell
the world one more time what happened to
him on a big ass platform and just do
it. I mean different than a movie,
right?
>> And my by golly
>> did he ever. And that episode I think
why people loved it so much is because
we are all starved to know the one
thing. Is this true? M any of it, all of
it, some of it,
I don't know. But it was cool as [ __ ]
[laughter]
>> It was cool as [ __ ] And it
>> still got him.
>> It was amazing.
>> And he didn't put the bone down, right?
>> He didn't put the bone down.
So, you could stop there, but he's had
on just I I get so joyous. Even if I
don't agree with with somebody and what
they're saying, people on there, Bob's a
liar. I'm like, "Okay, well, I can tell
you what you don't know." But, um, he
he's he's brought it into a popular
culture thing where I think a lot of us
wouldn't exist in the same way with this
if he didn't he he allowed the
discussion to occur.
>> Well, you were inextricably a big part
of that. So, you know, I hope you just
take that as a compliment. And
>> I was sitting on I was sitting in the
room.
>> [laughter]
>> Um, I want to get into some other
amazing people that you've sort of
broken out into the public and are now
part of the whole UFO conversation. Who
is Dylan Borland?
>> Okay. Do you think your audience would
prefer if I just give you really short
direct answers?
>> No. I think I think they want the full
deep I love what we're doing now, which
is just getting into it and, you know,
talking.
>> Yes. No. Right.
>> No.
>> Okay.
>> Yeah.
>> Dylan Boran.
>> That's Larry King.
>> Okay. That is
>> all all respect to
>> Larry. No, he was awesome, dude. You
know what he did? When I walk in with
Larry King and Bob, I'm like, you know,
nervous. But for Bob, because I'm making
him do this thing early morning, I come
in, Larry King looks at me and he just
like winks at me like a 1950s like,
"You're going to be okay, kid." But I
wasn't the nervous one, you know? It was
funny. He was a cool dude.
>> He was a cool dude. Yeah.
>> So, um, Dylan Borland. So
friend,
intelligent,
balls like church bells,
a man of faith,
husband,
animal, lover, and protector.
Honest,
nervous at times.
endured extreme adversity. Endured
extreme adversity.
He doesn't have a road map cuz um other
people got [ __ ] cleared.
By getting stuff cleared, he would
expose himself.
So, he has to dance a line until they
let him talk.
And
he has endured
extreme adversity like you said and
people don't know all that. I was just
with him for 5 days. We were just having
a good time at Mc Minville, you know,
>> and I I know I I'm try to keep the
private stuff out, but he just say he's
very loved and has a loving relationship
um and is an absolute
in my assessment,
>> honest, straightforward. He has a little
OCD like me. Like he's like, "Did you
lock your room?" I'm like, "I think so."
He like ran back up to check the door,
you know. Um, so he's afidious is the
what I like to call it when someone's
like, "Fidious, you know, that's who
Dylan Borland is as a human being.
He also
is somebody that you should trust.
What did he experience?
>> Okay. That I can talk about.
>> Mhm.
>> Um he told you in Congress is there was
a large triangular shaped craft that was
near the NASA hanger. It moved over
towards him.
It had zero sound.
It had electrostatic like the smell of
rain. His phone had interference. Went
hot, went out.
All the classics.
>> It was between one to two stories thick,
equilateral triangle. I could never see
the top of it. And the edges were 90°
90°.
There were four lights in total. Uh one
light on each corner and a larger light
in the center. two to three times the
size of the corner lights. The craft
itself was this black metallic flake
paint, but on top of the craft was this
gold lava plasma some type of fluid
going over and around the craft. little
lava plasma.
>> That was something that if I had a
nickel
>> for every time someone described the
seemingly intelligent
gold
undulating
hue
>> that engineers have described to me.
>> They can't describe the exact They're
engineers. It really bothers them when
they can't they don't have the words for
something, you know, um what it made
them feel.
an intelligence. Now, Dylan didn't say
that part, but I' if I had a nickel for
every time I've heard that. So, yeah,
that's undulating
lava lava lamp style gold and then shoot
straight up.
You you'd mistake it as a star and then
took off
on a military base. That's what you know
and the world really knows up till the
very minute basically of what he
experienced but a lot more there's a lot
more
>> I have direct firsthand knowledge and
exposure to crash recovery reverse
engineering integration of technology
into redacted
>> as well as the most important piece of
technology on the planet and it's not
the craft themselves
>> it would be the power source
>> you can make that assessment logist.
>> It is your sense that that craft was
being housed at the military base or was
doing sort of recon from above at the
military base or is it like anybody's
guess and he's open to either
interpretation?
>> Yeah. If he doesn't know, I can't know.
I don't know. Um it is a conundrum. What
was it? What was it doing? Were we
operating it? Was it ours? Is it a
program where we utilize things? I mean,
look, if we have that technology,
everybody's been lying to me.
>> So, if we have it, I I I really want us
to have that technology. And there there
are some arguments.
>> You believe we have crafts. You believe
we have crafts and saucers and hangers.
>> Oh, no, we do. Yeah. Yeah. The But I'm
saying I guess what I'm saying is some
people claim that we have a modicum of
control over them. Like even Lazar, you
know, they gave him the impression that
we were flying it. Obviously, it seems
that way. Low performance test.
>> So, these triangles, there is evidence
that would make me think that we've done
something like a retrofit, but it's not
something that there's a thumbrint for
that is easily findable. I don't think
there is one. So, I think at best what
we're doing, and this leads into other
things that were told to me by an
intelligence agency that I said for the
first time publicly because my lawyer
said, "Well, if they said that to you,
you can." Dylan never said it to me.
They did
>> and that's well documented. So I was
able to say three things last weekend
that were never said before and Dylan
couldn't answer any of them. And to to
to get to your I'm sorry get to get to I
think your
>> Can you say what the intelligence agency
said?
>> Yeah. Yeah. I I can but then we go off
on a whole different tangent. It's just
broke news. It's breaking today. while
we're doing this
>> just high level the the
>> Yeah, I I I can but let's just finish
this one little triangle thing.
>> Sure.
>> Which is I think um
>> there is evidence that we meaning that
the United States
have been able to put a non
human power source into a constructed
body of other craft. The problem is is
it can't handle it. It's like putting a
Ferrari engine in a Pinto, you know, and
then you try to drive that fast on those
wheels, you're dead, right? So, that's
where I'm at at this point. The evidence
has directed me to that that we've made
some exploitive derivative technologies
based on it, but the skin of the craft,
but non-human power source, the ability
to make it work at all. Well, even if
you can't retrofit it onto some,
>> but that's what it's it sounds like
you're saying. does. So, I'm thinking
that it just does work.
>> Okay.
>> And then you're trying to harness that
and not have the wheels break off. You
know what I'm saying? So, it's like, you
know, you can
>> slap it on there and
>> slap it on there. Yeah. Exactly. Like,
so I that's to the best of my knowledge
>> without getting too specific and in the
weeds for your audience, that's to the
to the best of my knowledge.
>> Sure.
>> And then the three things I I said,
>> is that what you wanted to know next?
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, I said that
I was directly told by a lead of the
ODNI's dig, the director's initiative,
that Dylan Borland
drew
four drawings, I think it was, which was
a lie.
He did draw three for the ICIG because
it was filmed.
So why the lie? We'll talk about that.
But
I think it was I think it was four
drawings is what they said. So one was
the craft and everybody knows that
that's just he saw it at a base doesn't
know anything.
But the
ODNI
told me that he had told them about
Project Rubik's Cube. Now, if that is a
classified UAP program, then nobody
should be telling me that, especially if
it was said in a skiff. Now, the problem
is I already knew about it. multisource.
I don't know the full nature of Project
Rubik's Cube, but I think they were
trying to entrap him to see what he had
said to me in George in private. He had
never said that to me, but I knew about
it already. Multiple sourcing, right?
>> So George and I were like, when OD and I
told us that, we said, "You said it, not
us."
>> Yeah.
>> So So he shouldn't get in trouble to be
clear.
>> Well, he can't.
>> He can't.
>> He never said it.
>> He never said it. So, I asked him on
stage,
>> but his face did look down in
>> I don't I don't know what he looked. I
tried not to look at him. I said, "I'm
not even gonna look at you."
>> I wasn't trapping him either.
>> No. Sure.
>> You know, I called Chuck McCulla prior.
>> Yeah.
>> Like like earlier that morning and I
said, "Here's the deal. You know, ODNI
was targeting me and George and they
were targeting us and all these
whistleblowers and then we got proof. By
the way, the CIA, the whole thing that
happened in in Congress, we'll get to
that if you want." So, they're targeting
us, but I said, "Chuck, they told me
about Project Rubik's Cube." And kind of
long silence with Chuck,
and there's two more things. And he
goes, "Well," he goes, "You're a
journalist. You have no They have no
authority that if they said that to you,
>> it's on them.
>> That's on them." I said, "So, I can say
it." Yeah. Can I try to get Dylan to
confirm that? and he goes essentially as
a lawyer, right, if he knows or doesn't
know that he he is not in a legal
position to admit or anything about
that. And I said, well, I'm going to I'm
going to ask him if you say I can say
that on stage because I think it's
important people now know. And I know
Dylan can handle himself. Nothing
pre-planned. He stood up in front of
Congress and handled himself, right? So
I asked him, I was told by an ODNI agent
that Dylan
testified
to ICIG,
the police of the intelligence agencies,
that there is a UFO program and it's
called Rubik's Cube.
That's what he said. That's what that's
what I heard from the ODNI,
which they shouldn't be calling me and
telling me what was described in this
gift. Should they?
>> Right. So, I'm a journalist, so I listen
and I testify. Can you believe me? The
daughter of a beer tattoo journalist or
a great mentor. You don't need to
believe me.
Project Rubik's cube. Dylan, I'm not
going to look at you. Have you have you
ever testified to ICIG about a UAP
program
containing UAP
called Project Rubik's Cube?
Well, let me
um
don't do it.
>> I am not in a stiff.
I am not going to jail.
I can neither confirm or deny that if
you want me to answer that question, ask
for a candidacy for the whistleblowers.
Ask Congress in the executive branch to
give it to us and I'll answer that
question.
[applause]
>> In my read that says if he is protected
as a whistleblower
>> and they want him to be able to talk
freely, then he will absolutely talk
about that. So he didn't confirm nor
deny it. Smart move.
>> Yeah.
>> Now it gets weird.
>> Through the intelligence agency, George
was on the call. Through the
intelligence agency, they said he drew
obviously the triangle that he saw or
whatever, but in the ICIG that he drew a
pyramidshaped
power source.
Pyramid triangle by angle of
observation. Pyramid-shaped power
source. Non-human. We're talking about
NHI.
I I don't know if we publicly said where
that was being housed, but I have
already reported this to multiple
agencies that were trying to find where
the legacy [ __ ] was being held. So, this
is like I already reported all of this
what I knew, right? Factually, we're
holding facilities when they're trying
to hide it from DOJ who's trying to, you
know, find out where this stuff is.
as a journalist, right? You you when
when the American government says
they're hiding from us, I openly will
try to help an agency, go hold them
accountable, like another agency. Oh,
I'll [ __ ] help them. No problem. I'll
tell them something. Not talking about
whis we're not talking about sources or
witnesses, you know, nothing to do with
that. Third thing that was told to me by
OD and I
is that Dylan do a drawing of like a
hieroglyph
and and by the way these were told to me
they were classified.
Why would you classify
a symbol?
What the [ __ ]
>> What the [ __ ] Uh,
>> so I imagine the symbol is somehow
associated physically on the pyramid.
>> That's trippy.
>> Yeah, bro. Well, because my mind when
you said pyramid, I started tripping out
because I'm thinking about the pyramids
all over, you know, disperate
civilizations from thousands of years
ago from you can go to the Yucatan and
Mexico, you can go to Peru, uh, and you
can go to Egypt and you can go to, you
know, uh, Cambodia and, uh, you know,
one of the sort of, you know, most
common things is a pyramid. That is,
that is sort of a very common structure.
And then what I also find fascinating is
they're now there's a guy named Filipo
Beondi who I've had on my show. He's an
Italian radar scientist who with
synthetic aperture radar Doppler
tomography has found these this energy
grid is is what he believes it is. At
least we know it's tubular
20 m long
eight of these things with coils
wrapping around them that go a kilometer
deep tens of meters down below the
pyramid. I've hosted a debate on my
show. I don't know for sure if it's
real, but it does seem like he found
some anomaly under there. And there is
something under there.
>> Yeah, I looked at the Italian stuff,
too. I mean, there's something under
there.
>> Seems like there's something under
there.
>> Didn't Joe talk about some um tic tac
shaped metallic object they also found?
Is that real?
>> That's in the labyrinth that Heroditus
and Ply the Elder and Ben Van Kirkwick
is now sort of reporting on.
>> Good beer. Ply the Elder.
>> Ply the Elder. We had to get him in
somehow. ply. Um [laughter]
but um yeah, and so I I know less about
that, but Egypt's so weird because it
seems like there's like an underground
city. Like even the most conventional
archaeologists, I think, would say that
there's so much going on underneath all
of these kind of topological structures.
Even, you know, the Sphinx, there
definitely are shafts below that. Even
Zahi Hawwas who's like the embodiment of
like you know gatekeeping in the region
former you know minister of culture will
admit that there's a shaft below the
sphinx and for whatever reason it's all
like locked down and I don't know if
you're Egypt you've got to be thinking
what's the number one GDP boosting thing
we can do
>> dig figure out what's under there you
you find some new exciting you know
discovery that's like for all mankind
everyone's going to visit and be excited
and celebrate
>> it's like being the disclosure
president. Wouldn't it be great? I mean,
President Trump has forced this mandate
and is following through so far. Look,
whoever does this first is going to be
hero for the rest of their life, hero
for eternity. Um, with with But you're
talking about something outside of my
scope of knowledge
>> um and ability like I I I've heard of
all these things, but let's to bring it
to so but maybe it's the UFO power
source. Is this this pyramid? There's
some maybe there's something about the
pyramid shape.
>> Yeah. So that's now I'm going to tell
you what I pretty I'm I'm pretty
confident
>> and and there's pyramid tubulin in the
microtubules of the brain that Roger
Penrose and Hamarov think are
responsible for collapse of the wave
function and consciousness. And even Hal
Putoff who's out here in Austin talks
about this as his best model of
consciousness. And there are rumors of
UFO legacy programs recruiting psionic
assets to call in craft mentally. And so
the tubulant pyramid structures in the
brain might have some sort of part in
that. Okay. So now when you talk about
tubulant brain structures collapsing the
waveform of consciousness, I am lost on
what those words represent in functional
reality. However, sounds [ __ ] cool.
Um I don't know about the whole psionics
thing.
>> Yeah. What do you think? What do you
think? Do you think that's real?
>> Just just top level um thing.
>> Yeah.
>> Um
>> like the Skywatcher stuff. Do you think
any of that?
>> So I'm not
>> like the and Greer pushes this stuff.
>> Yeah. So two things. One,
>> when I'm talking about a pyramid power
source in a class, no in a classified
ICIG.
>> Yeah.
>> Alleged drawing from Dylan. Again, he
didn't tell me. And he still says, "I
can't confirm nor deny, but I'd love to
have the authority." The symbol hier I
think was the word was used to me and
George hieroglyphic, I think, on the
thing. We're talking about something
that you could put in other stuff, you
know? So, if we're talking about a power
source, I'm imagining that's how we
would retrofit
things, but I'm not sure on that. Like,
let me report back to you. just the
multitude of sources that we've got.
It's all aiming towards this idea that
there's different parts of technology
that are held by different groups. And
that's why DOJ is like saying remember I
mean it was a public thing. They were
like trying to find out. It's a public
thing that Berles Rep. Berles was going
to places for different hardware. Um so
I'm not speaking out of school. What
what I'm trying to to say is there are
certain different types of hardware that
I understand to be held in different
places. So I'm not talking about big
pyramids. I'm talking about something
that appears maybe movable as a power
source. Now you just went somewhere
else. I want to catch you back on where
you left off, but I wanted to qualify
that.
>> No. Yeah.
>> What was the last
>> The last thing I was saying is do you
think this idea of ionic assets is that
real? So, what people don't know is that
a homeless guy came up to me in 2013 and
said, "Look up." [sighs]
Yeah. And I looked up and I saw like a
globe like just a I didn't know you
balloon. What the you know. So then I
started I think it was 2013. No, no. I'm
sorry. That that's No, that was in 2004
because or 2005 was right after I was
sick. So, this homeless guy says, "Look
up." Right. Um I'm looking up. It's a
little bit more than that. Uh what
happened was
I got a message on a YouTube video that
I posted cuz I saw this thing in the sky
and I didn't know what it was. I filmed
it. It's called the I called it the
Silver Surfer.
>> And I um just it it looked like these
zigzaggy things. Do you know this part
of Oh, this is cool. You got to hear
this. Okay, so zigzaggy things. And I
pulled out my phone. I'm filming. I'm
walking in Santa Monica with my now
wife, right? And we had I had a
different pup, Lucky, three legs. So
I filmed this [ __ ] in the sky, post it
onto YouTube. Next thing I know, Bill
Nye, the science guy, is saying, "Oh, I
don't know. Um, he probably superimposed
um, brine shrimp onto the film.
>> It could be sea monkeys, which are brine
shrimp shot in the right light and
superimposed on the blue sky with the
shaky thing."
>> I immediately go on Google. I look up
what Brian Shrimp is. It's Sea Monkeys.
And I was like, I was [ __ ] pissed. So
I like I thought people on TV there were
science people had like scientific
method. I don't even know how to
superimpose nothing on iPhone footage at
the time. I was like just barely
>> that's whack of Bill Nye man.
>> Yeah. What was the first year of the
iPhone?
>> Uh 2008 I think. 2008.
>> 2008. So well look you know what
>> but I think of Bill Nye I'm like that's
was such a bummer cuz he's you know he's
like this Mr. Rogers character of
science.
>> But I'm I'm obsessed with
>> accusing you of shrimp brine. Yeah, it
gets better. I'm super obsessed with
getting the right date so you can look
up the video yourself. That's how you
know the date. Um I
>> Oh, so maybe it was a little later.
>> I used to be kicked in the head for a
living. I I I literally when it comes to
dates, I have to keep all in a phone and
I use photos. So if you guys look up
Silver Surfer, it's probably one of the
first videos on my YouTube's probably
there. Um what happens is he goes on the
news, I get pissed off cuz I didn't know
about news. What are you doing? Right?
So I called the news station. I said,
"Wait a second. I didn't superimpose
anything and they just dismissed me,
right?" And I'm like, "The fuck?" But
they did this like story about it. So I
went to deep dive investigation on my
UFO sighting. I mean, I went into like
forums and like Facebook and like what
was it? It was called like, you know,
all this stuff. Um, my space and I found
all these people that had also filmed
it. I got six angles of this [ __ ]
right? So I went like crazy, bro. I was
like, "No one's going to tell me, you
know, that I superposed Brian Shrimp."
[laughter] And I literally
>> Such a weird accusation,
>> bro. I literally Yeah. Yeah. Billy, you
might be a nice guy. Um I literally
>> He's probably a science guy as well.
>> I don't know. Worst joke ever. Yeah. I
don't know. Oh, that's Oh, Bill science
guy. So then I just like So then what?
Here's the deal, man. I get six angles
of this thing.
>> Yeah.
>> So I can then figure out where it was. I
figured it out. There's a bunch of
people online. It's funny story I'll
tell you later about online who was
there, but figured it out
and I got the footage
from the helmet cam of the Red Bull
skydiving team with iridium flares that
look like the Silver Surfer. So, I
debunked my first UFO case in life. So,
that's how I I like finally realized
like, you know, you got to [ __ ] uh
make sure and talk about I didn't never
said it was UFO. I just asked a
question. Well, well, even then it was a
UFO. It was an unidentified flying
object,
>> but I solved it and I realized you can
solve it. I remember writing in to like
some UFO thing goes, "Hey guys, guys, I
have a solved UFO case." They were so
not interested in a solved UFO case.
>> It's a problem with, you know, a lot of
the reporting,
they don't want the debunks and
>> but that was kind of like a funny thing.
So, um, where I realized that people
were disingenuous and that they were
just saying [ __ ] and that they're not
authority, you know, on stuff and
they're not even scientists sometimes.
>> You also, I mean, there's so many layers
to that story because it it does
eventually get debunked by you more
accurately, but there's like a fake
debunk as well. And so, you want the
right debunk. You don't want but then
you also want the community to say that
the debunks are important and they
didn't care about like the ultimate
debunk was right.
>> I would say debunk I I would say um like
you don't so debunking means you you you
already have an idea and you you have to
fit it into that idea in my
>> Yeah. Or it means you were presenting it
for sure as nonhuman. You weren't just
saying what is this?
>> Analysis is important, right? Analysis.
You analyze everything. Some of the UFO
videos that are going to come out from
the government had deep deep deep
analysis like instantaneous
acceleration. That is what you're seeing
in that video. They did not want that
video out.
>> Yeah. But even then, do you think that
there are possible ways to poke holes in
it and that there there might be
>> Oh, yeah. Dude, and look one day, you
know,
>> like like if it were massless.
>> If I get more I was massless.
>> Like if it didn't if it was some sort
of, you know, it looked real like it had
mass but it was a hologram or something.
>> Well, it got a weapons grade lock on it.
Um, and by the way, [ __ ] how do I say
this? So like
>> cuz you can technically look like you're
breaking Newton's third law if
>> So you got so you got so the the debunk,
not the debunk, but the plausible. And
I'm not saying I believe
>> No, no, no. I look new information. I'm
going to absorb it. But we learned this
uh the hard way. Uh life did, you know,
um people did in a cool way. So yes,
sure, Jesse.
>> Maybe that's not a a UFO, you know,
spacecraft that it's instantaneous. If
you give me information, you should give
it to the government first of all
because they disagree. But, you know,
cuz they they have eyes on all the
assets. I'm
>> sure they know that. So, here was my
point. That was a deep dive analysis
that came out, right? Because George and
I obtained and released it. Our
government hasn't released it. I'm sure
there's a pilot uh a mission report on
that. I want that. The world should have
that. So, whatever. Yeah. And at some
point, you do your best, you put
something out, and then maybe it's not
what you were told or what the
government thought. And the reason I'm
saying this is because in these, they
call them tranches of releases. There's
going to be good information and bad
information. And that's that's why we
want it out. So people really bright
minds, the internet can solve [ __ ] real
quick, right?
>> That's why I struggle with video myself
because I'm like, I'm not a VFX guy. I
don't know. So I see some of these
videos, I'm like, they look compelling
to me, but like
>> you could probably give me some [ __ ]
and I would probably think, you know,
maybe that looks compelling, too. So I
just try to like not even weigh in.
>> Let me argue why it's tip of the spear,
okay? Okay. Uh right now, now this
should change. This should change, but
right now it's tip of the spear. Cuz
man, if you were with me 15 years ago,
you one video from the military, are you
kidding me? You'd go crazy, man. Um,
you're going to get bad stuff inside
these UFO drops from the government, not
cuz they're trying to trick you, but
because certain products have been
highly evaluated and there's multi-ensor
platforms. Some they can't show you like
with the uh 2019
100 UAP swarms. Some were pyramid in
shape. somewhere somewhere. Look, there
are other platforms. So, when you have
multi-platform, multi-ensor, some of
that's going to be really good and well
thought out and the government should be
giving that up to you. But some of it's
going to be like this looked cool. That
pilot says that was all crazy and that's
the pilot report. But here's how we
learned the hard way in a good way.
Those 46 videos, that's the tip of the
spear. just to begin the process.
The last the first trunch of stuff that
they put out, George Knapp and I had
reported on something called the Baghdad
Phantom. We released seven images which
were still shots cuz obviously people
are leaking [ __ ] So I don't even we we
make it in a way so we could never even
know sometimes. But we validate
everything. But we put it out, we told
people, "Here you go. It's cold. It's
running through here." And you're like,
"Cool video, dude." Right? And all of a
sudden it was wasn't a video. We just
stitched together the images. But the
process worked. They knew that people
knew about that case. So guess what was
in that first trunch was the actual
video of the Baghdad Phantom. That felt
good to me and George cuz they're like,
"Look, we're pushing transparency." But
what people missed if you look and read
through all the documents like a
psychopath. There is a mission report of
that collection. M. So that's before it
gets into the disinformation arms of the
old era because now everything's going
to be thumbs up from what I understand.
>> Maybe.
>> Maybe. No, I'm just I'm going like this,
but we're going to hold them accountable
and they know that we can. They know
exactly how we can. So one of those ways
is look at the mission report from the
Baghdad Phantom. That was supposed to be
declassified in 2047.
>> Wa.
>> Just the mission report.
>> Well, that's cool that that came out.
>> It did because what it does
>> What does the mission report say? at
look at what the pilot said.
>> What what what
>> it's very simple. It it just it just
shows the process is working before it
gets like twisted by um intel agencies
like Arrow has been acting like one in
the past. Give them maybe future props.
Um so so that is what I'm saying is you
learn that when you put something out if
the pilot report was like, "Oh no, we
knew what this was." Then I would know
that wasn't a UAP. When they label it
UAP, when they talk about how it went by
them super fast and they tried to keep
the camera on it, right, and and they
they got as much footage as they could,
it reinforces what I said. Central
Command has a bottleneck to UAP
information before it gets to the people
who legally supposed to get to who want
the information, even Arrow. So, we
informed them about that and about the
bottleneck at Sentcom because we found
out about it.
>> And anything else of note that the pilot
said in the back? No, it's it's it's
really simple. It's just anam it's just
an example of of of a mission report
that goes with footage that you were
told about 3 years prior to it through
proper reporting and it should give you
confidence confidence that reporting is
working and that pushing this way works.
>> You you mentioned Arrow under uh Kirk
Patrick. It does feel like it was not
only like a you know an intel agency or
something or a modern project blue book
kind of trying to dismiss you know many
UFO cases. Uh it seemed even more
nefarious than that. It seemed like
maybe it was acting as like kind of a
fly trap, like it was explicitly uh
getting leads on the cases that I'm most
familiar with are some of these nuclear
cases. Arrow, the people that uh took
the testimony from these veterans did
not record them. They were told couple
of the veterans were told, "Well, we're
taking notes." Well, if you're
conducting a serious investigation, you
you want to tape record every word,
every grunt, every syllable. And they
did not record any of the interviews
according to the veterans
>> and they wouldn't take notes but they
would maybe take highle notes about
where you know certain evidence would
lie and then they might even go and try
to find that evidence and destroy it in
certain cases. It just seemed like a
total limited hangout with ties to UFO
legacy program like like the definition
of bad actor agency is my sort of rough
assessment. But what's what's your
assessment
>> uh for you know for for people that say
I don't answer questions directly here's
a direct answer you are 100% correct it
is exactly my assessment and I can back
it up and there are a number of way in a
court of law
was acting as a counterintelligence
against the American public to siphon
out what people knew and then to be able
to clamp down on them. It was a honey
trap. It uh was a disinformation
campaign. Um Dr. James Latsky
even said that on our podcast, Mine and
Georgees.
>> Uh you know, he he says, "Well, they're
sure acting like it, aren't they?" or
something like that. Uh this is a known
thing. Now, I have direct specific
knowledge and evidence of exactly how
that mechanism worked. Recorded,
documented.
>> Whoa.
>> Oh yeah, bro. Oh,
>> so for example, if somebody But there's
a lot of good people that work at Arrow,
by the way. Shout out to the good
people. I do know some good people that
work at Arrow, but it under Dr. Sean
Kurpatre all the way up from the NASA
people that are sources of mine who have
told me what what it's like in the room
with him, what he tried to do.
>> Yeah.
>> To the direct harassment
of witnesses. Not I'm not talking about
dismissal. I'm talking about harassment
threats. And I'm not I'm not sure how to
go far to go right now, but imagine it's
recorded.
So recorded. So in the court of law, I
could prove that Arrow was intimidating
and harassing
whistleblowers.
And
>> it's wild.
>> Yeah, man. So [ __ ] them. Sorry. In that
in that old version. Now I hear that um
Dr. Klovski.
>> Everybody I know that knows him
professionally before he was in that
role.
>> Yeah.
>> My job is to have sources everywhere,
right?
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What do they say about
before?
>> He's a great guy.
>> Okay. I've heard similar
>> He's an honest guy.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Now he is in Project Blue Box. It's the
modern version. Much more sophisticated.
The battlefield is is cyber. The
battlefield is social media. It's PR.
Notice what he asked for when he went up
the last thing with Juland. All he asked
for wasn't more money. He asked for
public trust because he realized coming
into that job, poor guy, after it was
just kind of [ __ ] on by Kurpatre and
[ __ ] on by Tim Phillips,
right? Coming after whistleblowers
publicly on like LinkedIn when are you
kidding me? Is that in your job
description? Project Blue Box. Dude, it
is worse than Project Blue book. A book
you can open a box. How do you get in?
and and it and it's it's so bad. It's so
bad because it's you can literally tie
its inception to legacy programs. So
Kirk Patrick was at SIC if you study UFO
legacy programs, SEIC is all over that
stuff. Ronald Moltry who is office of,
you know, under secretary of defense had
Battel on his uh resume and scrubbed it.
If you again study anything about UFOs,
in fact, you can even go back to the
pentacle memo at the inception of Blue
Book and Battel was behind the scenes
doing sort of, you know, the more real
stuff while Blue Book was kind of doing
the front-facing things. Um, so, you
know, definitely legacy stuff going on
there. It's obviously, you know, very
close to right Pat. Uh, you know, Ohio
State, a lot of interesting stuff
happening in that sort of nexus. So it's
it's people where you don't Glen Gaffne
is on the board of Glenn Glenn Gaffne
who's director of science and technology
the CIA who's blocking the UFO transfer
between Loheed and and Bigalow which we
just discussed with Latsky. So you have
three people who like
>> the guy that George Knap said his name
with his hand raised in Congress Glen
Gaffne in the transfer of a non-human
intelligence craft.
>> I have a name for you. Go ahead. Glenn
Gaffne, CIA.
>> So, those are the three people who are
supposed to be helping we, the American
public, make sense of UFOs,
congressionally mandated.
>> It's crazy, dude. Bro, I'm so glad you
you're tracking all this because the
average person is not and not everybody
can track all that. So like um
putting that out in a digestible way,
explaining that to people that there is
a generational
pattern of relationship just like you
would have in any organization or agency
or group of people cabal you know I
don't know the word like Edgar Mitchell
said like a group a secret group of
people
>> is that what he told you is he said a
secret group of people cuz I know you
you interacted with Edgar Mitchell the
sixth man to walk on the six men to walk
on the moon. Uh allegedly some people
would say um he uh I don't want to get
into that. He um
>> neither here nor there. [laughter]
>> He absolutely in the film you see there
was the last filmed interview before he
died from what I understand at this
time.
>> Um spent many days with him and he was
very clear with me. He really let me in.
He knew that time was ticking. We became
friends. He he lived for a little while
after, but that was like the only filmed
like, you know, cameras in his home kind
of interview before he died. I lived
lived longer, but then um we we got down
to brass tax and yes, that's that's
exactly what he said. He told me who he
talked with. I knew about the Wilson
Davis thing long before.
>> Wild. Of course, you know, the things
that George and I can't say,
>> you know, um, look, man,
>> there's a I wish it was organized. There
are groups of people holding information
back from me for no good [ __ ] reason.
And um, the idea is, how do we get it
out? We can't take it.
>> But Mitchell talked about some sort of
cabal, some sort of closely knit.
>> Interesting.
>> Yes, he did. But but not that he knew
everything.
>> Sure. And I didn't dodge your side
question. We should get back to that for
your audience, right? But um yeah, Dr.
Mitchell talked about how cuz look, six
man to walk on the moon. People want to
talk with you. Born in Roswell, New
Mexico, bro. Right.
>> Yeah.
>> He behind the scenes um and in front of
the scenes tried to be an advocate for
truth and transparency on this cuz he
knew it was true. The whole enchilada.
It's so interesting to me the dynamic
around this whole topic is you have
people like Edgar Mitchell, you have
Warner von Braonn at the end of his life
talking to Carolyn Rosen his his
>> text me sometime.
>> Oh, amazing.
>> She's cool. and he's talking about some
planned alien invasion and then you I
feel like you have modern equivalents of
them where it's like guys who are really
well respected in their agencies or you
know with their past credentials people
like Latsky or Hal Putoff
but those guy everybody I just mentioned
considers themselves an outsider.
>> Yes. And that's interesting about this
whole topic
>> because you have guys who are have very
high security clearances who can, you
know, walk into all these places like no
questions asked.
>> Bigot list.
>> Yeah. [laughter]
>> No, there's bigot lists.
>> Okay.
>> You have to So yeah,
>> it doesn't matter your clearance. It's
need to know.
>> It's very simple.
>> There are bigot lists. That's what
happened. Um,
>> but there's a cabal that's deeper than
Warner von. Like I think of Warner von
Braonn as like he got to be part of
>> No, but he's not he's on the inside of
what he needed to know like how Bob was
on Power and Propulsion, you know, with
Project Galileo.
>> Um, but worse, you you you have
I hope there is a cabal that is planning
how to do this, right? I don't think so
cuz everything's been provoked and
forced. But uh yes, all these people you
know that you would imagine like how put
off maybe he also just can't tell you
certain things which I know for a fact
>> like you know
>> I know there's a lot he probably
>> for example somebody you know
>> and you might know this but somebody you
know worked on a
laser weapon system from a downed
Russian NHI
spaceship. someone you know. Have they
told you that?
>> Nope.
>> You just saying that because you're on
camera?
>> No, [laughter] I really don't know who
you're talking about.
>> Okay.
>> So, somebody I'm extremely curious.
>> Somebody you know
>> Yeah.
>> worked on the reverse engineering
>> Yeah.
>> of a laser weapon system.
>> Yeah.
>> From a downed Russian asset.
>> NHS.
>> Last name start with D.
>> We're not playing that game in front of
the camera. [laughter]
I'm I'm trying [clears throat] to get
>> Well, there's one person who said
something along those lines in a
documentary.
>> You're an investigator, bro. Okay, here
here's the deal.
>> What I'm saying to you is that even if
they wanted to,
>> yeah,
>> they can't tell you how much they know.
Now, are they in this cabal planning
[ __ ] Oh, [ __ ] no. Who those people are
highest highest up on the food chain?
All I found is the cabala people who
want you not to know, not the people
that do know.
>> Did you really hear what I just said?
Because that's important. I I found the
people that want you not to know
>> but not the people that do know
>> the full thing.
>> Yes.
>> I don't know that anybody does.
>> Yeah.
>> I I I don't know.
>> Blind men touching different parts of an
elephant.
>> There we go. I I can relate to that. The
parable. Yes. Something like that. So
the question is
>> that's apparently what General Neil
McCasslin told Tom Dong. It's in
>> secret. That was an op because no
general like that by the way. Um he's a
boomer. Okay. I've learned what that
word means now. I had to look it up,
which I'm not ashamed of. It's a cool
word, boomer. Um, basically,
anybody from that
era of national defense will never Do
you think he sits back and listens to
Blink 182? Do you think that guy,
honestly, on his free time, do you think
he ever been to a concert?
>> I don't know.
>> Why is he talking to Tom? Right. Um,
love Tom did some amazing stuff, you
know, he pushed this forward, you know.
Good for Tom. So I I really
>> I'm a huge fan of his. I think he's
awesome.
>> His music too. Yes. I
>> And and as a person and as a person I
think he's
>> No, dude.
>> I think he gets a lot he gets a bad rap
sometimes. Vigilante like really helped
get a lot, you know, shake the tree down
and get a lot of
>> Let's make this clear.
>> Yeah.
>> Tom Dong is Yes, he's a rock star, but
that's a tiny little piece of who he is.
He is like you. He is curious. He is
fascinated. He called me back in the day
before he was ever.
>> He's genuinely fascinated.
>> Genuinely, he used to read all the books
with the blink thing and he he George is
always making me get on calls with
people and I don't know who they are and
he really want to talk to him. The I
remember this call driving home from
Vegas from uh right after I kind of got
to know um some somebody else, but I'm
driving back and Tom calls me. He's not
like in the UFO world in any way at this
time and he's just talking to me. He
knew so much about the UFO thing. So
people put him in as like, oh, this
rockstar and blah blah blah. That's not
what I'm saying. I'm not saying they
wouldn't talk to him because he's a
rockstar, dude. He trained with George
Knapp on like how to make his approach,
what the pitch is, how to use his face
and his fame to get in there, you know?
He got into like a locky little schware.
Tom [ __ ] did it, dude. He pushed in.
He got through. He went for it. He
became proactive instead of being a
consumer. He was a consumer for years
like all of us reading books. He did
that, man. and he gets a bad rap because
people jealous they weren't in that room
with Tom or they weren't in this with
Tom. Dude, he's a good dude and he's
super knowledgeable on the UAP thing.
Um, but when I said it was an OB, this
is important to me. The distinction of
that.
>> So, George's helping to sharpen the
pitch of Tom and hooking him up with
some people people don't know about was,
look, you got a bad rap. You've had to
keep this secret and that's going to
change. So you need to look like the
good guys because you are good guys. You
were just protecting America but now
it's gone too far. It was something like
that
>> in a Wikileaks email. Yeah.
>> Oh well. Okay. Yeah. So So okay. So wow.
So what happens then is you got this
boomer. Now do you think when I say it's
part of an op, but I'm not saying it's
bad. I'll explain the op. But do you
think someone like that charged with
protecting our national security, which
by the way, he's [ __ ] missing right
now?
>> I know.
>> That's interesting. If that was like
Russia or China and they got him alive
somewhere, what does he know that they
want? Not UFO related.
>> What if it's some rogue element of the
program?
>> Well, so that would be really sad.
>> Mhm.
>> And that would be really [ __ ]
>> Mhm.
>> So I have trouble believing it's an
adversary.
I'm just saying all options on the table
because we don't know. But what's the
op? So a guy like that,
>> yeah,
>> he ain't going to talk to Tom Dong. He
doesn't listen to his music. He's a
boomer and he and he has this oath like
Latsky. You think Latsky be calling up
rock stars talking? No, no, no. So when
I say op, it's not a bad thing. That was
an operation. Meaning there were people
trying to get [ __ ] out. Now not all of
it is true. And don't be one of those
people that believes everything just
because someone gives you one good piece
of information. So, if you look at that
and if I look at history, here's what I
would think. Here's my putting on a
little um theoretical hat. I'm thinking
that Hillary Clinton thought that she
was going to be president. And I think
that certain people knew that the
information was dying and that we needed
bright minds, just a little bit. We just
need a little bit of knowledge out
there. Or maybe she thought she'd be
disclosure president because her husband
really tried until they crushed down
Webster Hubble after asking look back at
your history. So Clinton tried maybe she
could be the disclosure president. Okay.
How do we pave the way? You do an OB,
right?
>> You not not negative like actual
information authorized from the White
House. People in the White House now you
can start seeding because when come time
because I'm going to win. She thought
everybody thought
>> Everybody thought there was no way this
guy Donald J. Trump could become
president. Remember that?
>> Oh yeah.
>> People thought that, right? Or I'm not a
political person, but I remember people
saying that.
>> No, it was he was a complete sleeper.
>> There was no way.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Okay. That's what they're telling me. So
basically this guy McCasten, one of many
that Tom was um talking to. Obviously,
Wikileaks you mentioned.
[gasps and sighs]
>> Okay. So then what happens? Wow.
Shocker. She's not president. So, what
happens to everybody that was part of
that? What happens to everybody that was
prepping the battlefield for disclosure,
which we all want as long as it's true
what they tell us and not a fear
campaign,
right? So, if it's truth,
what do they do? What do all these
people do now that that didn't work? You
got to you got to pivot. You got to
change. And and we're starting to see we
we've seen that if you've been paying
attention. Who are those people? Good
people? Bad people?
>> What do they want?
>> I think good people.
>> Well, there was definitely a a threat
narrative that came out of, you know,
elements of of that group that was very
it was very like, you know, they're
prepping the battle space, you know,
they're they're doing recon, they're
looking at us, and
>> I've always had an issue with that
narrative in particular. I think it's
sort of I think anyone that says they're
only good or they're only bad is so
ridiculous.
>> Yes. I absolutely, you know. Yeah. And
can you trust them? So if like a ET
comes to you and says, I come in peace.
You're going to destroy the world with
your technology, you know, spread the
word. We're
>> you can't take anything at face value in
either direction.
>> Like with that with with any human, the
words don't matter.
>> That's right.
>> It's the action. And if somebody speaks
in absolutes about intent on either
side, I don't trust them. I'm like,
because you're an individual and every
individual has different intent. And why
would it be different? But we can
organize. So let's look at the fact. The
fact is they've turned on nukes. They've
turned off nukes. They didn't stop
Hiroshima and Nagasaki. They've
constantly been watching. Call them the
watchers, right? They've been watching
for what seems like the beginning of a
quarter of human history. Whoever they
are, is it one group? Is it two groups?
>> Actions or
>> who freaking knows? Are they angry at
each other? Are we a commodity? Are they
protecting us? Fact is, they haven't
like neutralized everybody's brain where
you're walking around like a robot.
Right. So, that we know of.
>> That we know of. Yeah.
>> We know of.
>> I know a few robots, but uh
>> so the threat narrative, let me hit that
on the head with you.
>> Yeah.
>> Oh, me too. I think it's [ __ ]
ridiculous because if you talk to people
that actually had interactions, it's
like a mixed bag. Some people it's like
the greatest thing in their life. other
people is terrifying. Totally.
>> Like patient 17 terrifying. He didn't
tell me that till after I saw it got cut
out of his leg. Um
>> this this is a guy with an implant.
>> They called it an implant. I had it
isotopically analyzed for zinc 64 one
time and they wouldn't give me it back.
I talked to Jacques Valet, showed him
the results. It was way beyond the scope
of terrestrial zinc 64 isotopically. I'm
not a [ __ ] scientist.
>> But it had isotope ratios that you'd
never find on Earth. And Roger Lear took
this out of this patient.
>> Yes.
>> This was his last patient. We can get to
page 17. Threat narrative. This is for
you. I'm talking to you. I don't give a
[ __ ] about this. Right.
>> I agree with you.
>> Here's the thing.
>> Why? Why do they have that narrative?
Don't look at them like bad folks. Like,
why? I think it's probably some sort of
armaments build up in space and, you
know, things of that nature.
>> You're a deeper thinker than me. All I'm
thinking is it's their [ __ ] job.
>> Sure. Yeah. Yeah. When when you're a
hammer, everything looks like a nail.
That's it. So all these people are
coming from a military intelligence
national defense standpoint. They have
to think about it. It's in their blood
to think about it. But I would I would
just say one I would add one thing to
what you just said which is I agree with
that and then it's like why now as well?
So like there's some sort of ramp up in
the threat narrative. Well,
>> it seemed like around that time. And so
maybe it's because we're in a nuclear
multipolar world, but like the the the
nuclear thing had been happening since
the, you know, ' 50s, '60s, '7s, the
tampering with the nukes and stuff. So
like the the the the going public about
this could be a threat seemed to start
at that time. I don't know why.
>> Okay, but so that is fact. So but let's
play that out. Yeah.
>> Is that because
um there is a threat in their minds that
um
>> yeah it could be it could be genuine on
their they they could really believe
it's
>> I suspected I don't feel like they're
trying to make um humanity scared of it
like on the big scale. That's not the
big message I'm getting from all of this
movement. It it for me it's more of
curiosity. Let's say they did that.
Let's say that there it's an operation
to control people. That's ultimately
what you're saying is that I think you
correct me if I'm wrong.
>> No, I'm not even going that far. I think
it's possible. Um,
>> anything's possible.
>> Anything is possible. And I What's that
>> with this? Yeah,
>> with this I think it's a smoke screen. I
think it's a roar shock test and I think
it could get used for blue beam style
stuff. It, you know, religious
awakening. It could get used to clamp
down and then it could be extremely uh
libertarian and subversive of any kind
of institutional author authority
structures and so it has this infinite
superp position of possibilities
attached to it and I do think people are
trying to manage the narrative. I think
they're trying to manage the narrative
and shape the narrative less than some
of the people I meet on like you know
Reddit forums or whatever think they
are. Like you meet these people and
they're like just earnestly into it and
maybe they've been socialized in certain
spheres to believe certain things and
that shapes their belief in implicit
ways but they're less sort of you know
bad actors I think than some of the
people on the internet think you know
>> that's for [ __ ] sure. Um, but yeah, you
know, look, I mean, we just listed a
bunch of bad actors, but it's it's like
there are bad actors, but it's it's not
it's not everyone. And it's I find it
interesting there's there's a certain
type of person who's it's like they're
so they're rail they're angry and
they're railing against the control
system around UFOs. Like it's like this
parasychological control system around
this whole topic. And my second order
thought is always if if you're spending
all your time so angry at this, you're
probably part of the control system.
You're probably falling prey to it.
Well, I not only falling prey, but you
are allowed to run psychological
campaigns of disinformation on the
American public as Americans. That is
legal. That is law. You're allowed to do
that that night opposite. Is that true?
>> That's what that's from my
understanding. Like Google that [ __ ]
look it up. But from the Obama era, the
idea of protective programs and being
able to seed American news, look, we've
been doing it anyway.
>> That's interest. Did it start it became
legalized somehow under Obama?
>> That's what smarter people, legal
scholars that fascinating. I I I don't
know if that is accurate. So, I'm not a
legal scholar. But that makes me that
makes me wonder about some of the UFO
related narratives that popped up around
that time as maybe because maybe it was
on the backs somewhat of
>> you know well fact check the Obama law
change or whatever. So fact check me on
that. That is my understanding, right?
This propaganda, the idea, right, that
we're allowed to deceive the American
public for protective programs, right?
Like that is 100% legal. And now the new
terrain is all digital because that is
the way that we consume information. So
the real battlefield is the battlefield
of of freedom of thought. And that
occurs on social media, in news, um in
all media that is consumed. And they've
gotten very very savvy to the point
where you if I mean it's so easy like if
you get a AI to look at the repeated
words and the timing in which people
post and when they created their
accounts dude I've got a whole list of
people everybody says I should block
because it's an organized attempt to
take a single post I I had to say and
then you know diminish it and make um me
less credible. So that that that world
exists.
>> Oh yeah. and it's called shaping the
emerging UAP narrative. And why I've
said that now for the 400th time on
camera is because I was exposed to a CIA
document that gave the mandate. The
mandate was to shape the emerging UAP
narrative which I thought was so
interesting. Not control, not stop,
shape it. That's wild.
>> As if they know this narrative is
emerging. So how do we shape it? And
I'll tell you there is a news source.
>> Was there anything specific about how
they were shaping it? In what direction?
So the documents that I was um I am
familiar with.
>> Yeah.
>> Are CIA documents
>> Yeah.
>> I reported those to FBI with George
because it is illegal.
What what they started saying in it is
Commander Fraver misidentified
his instrumentation. And I was thinking
it's picked up on radar [ __ ]
How the hell do he saw it with his eye?
What are you talking about? There were
five other sets of eyes up there. So I
started thinking about as I'm exposed to
this like is this document real? First
of all, I was just exposed to it. I
don't know how better to say it here
legally. I was exposed to it. Never had
possession of it. Don't have it. Was
exposed to it. How I validated that
document was through DOJ.
So this document was talking about
shaping the emerging UAP narrative. I
will tell you this.
There is a news publication that popped
up right around the Lazar movie coming
out era and I saw them grasp the ground
and the terrain
that is a CIA stood up
media source and they were trying to say
oh is there a real this like this is
like an outlet that exists. It's an
online publication
>> and you know the name and it's like a
thing.
>> Yeah, bro. Yeah, bro.
>> Can you hear Can you say or what the
name?
>> I'll talk I'll talk to you in person
about it, but like I I think I think I
want the world to to think
>> and question
>> and then review. I gave you enough
information now to know
>> that is a CIA stood up media outlet.
>> Okay. So, what are the clues? It was
popped up around
>> around the Lazar time. Yeah. One of the
best um
Yeah. around the Lazar time. I'll get
maybe I'll I'll text you more specific.
We'll put some images in and just
[ __ ] blast them out. But there's a
bunch of people that work for it that
are good people. They have no [ __ ]
idea. They're literally just getting a
job. But you'd have to kind of operate
this from overseas is another hint,
right? Um on this publication and
>> are they UFO specific or no?
>> So that's what's funny is um yes and no.
like there's other really good articles
and writers and there's like great valid
stories, but when you need something
seated into the media as CIA, it's great
to have a bunch of people working for
this and then any story that comes down
from the king, you put in and you know
exactly which writers to talk, you know,
to talk to to seed them some very
special information that is breaking
news. It's so classic textbook CIA. We
go back to, you know, even um I heard
that a lot of the journalists, you know,
were on payroll. We we've got their
names now and what they were paid and
all this stuff all the way down to
people you really trusted back in the
60s.
>> Whoa.
>> Right. I think Operation Mockingbird. I
>> think this is public knowledge, right?
So if
>> this I think I might know what
publication you're talking about.
>> So if they can't buy you
>> Yeah.
>> If they can't seduce, I'll use that word
like seduction, whatever that means,
like you know, something alluring. If
they don't have a blackmail on you and
then they try and can't get you to bite
on that blackmail, then they're kind of
running out of options. So, what can
they do? They can start to diminish your
public profile
>> and they can threaten you.
>> And that's the way you control somebody.
Now, they're not trying to stop people
who have loud voices because you're
useful. These are intelligence
operations, right? you're they're you're
useful to them if they can get one of
those five things I just mentioned to
shape what you're saying. And that's
what's so dangerous. I mean, you got to
be squeaky clean, watch your back, you
got to document everything. When Chuck
McCulla says in my movie, not my movie,
Michael Lzovsk's movie, I gave him 20
years of footage. He made it. And to my
chagrin, if that's the right word, like
I had to ask my whole family like, is it
okay? Can I show the dog? You know, he
wants to do this. It should be
protection. He's saying it's protection.
Um, so what what my point is, what are
they what are they doing by shaping the
narrative that's already emerging?
Is it sinister? Is it what Jesse Michael
said right now? Is it to create a level
of control and threat so everybody goes,
"Oh god, big daddy government, you know,
protect me because there's something
coming, you know, like a big craft
really slowly to Earth. Oh my god, so
scary." or is it to acclimate you for
something that they know is going to
occur?
>> That that's the other possibility. And I
hear mutterings of that all the time.
all the time of like, you know, certain
dates and, you know, and I I I almost
like the the um book of Matthew of like,
you know, only God knows the the the day
or whatever on the apocalypse that
applies to and that has its own stigma
and I shouldn't even say, you know,
reference those things in the context of
kind of a more scientific conversation,
but I think that applies to this, you
know, 2026 or 7 or or 35. No one knows.
only God know or only some omnisient
force knows
>> or it's just complete and utter [ __ ]
>> or it's complete BS and the the funny
thing is I can call BS like I did on
that I tried to get out ahead of of you
know you're behind the eightball I won't
be ahead of the eightball on that one I
came out and said look all these intel
people I have taken all of this
information this conversations all this
data I've basically run it through um a
way to look for key repeated words
>> and I found that I and very directly too
was trying to be utilized to propagate
oh you want something really special is
happening like something really special
but I'm just going to tell you what the
[ __ ] tell everybody if it's really
special it's important right so the
manipulation of me that's why I came out
and said look my fear is that you're
going to be told that there is a craft
slowly moving to earth and it's [ __ ]
and then you know just the world
>> I was told that too and
>> you Sure. Yeah. Yeah. I knew it. I knew.
>> But I I always just whenever I get
something like that, I just I just don't
like I I'm like I know what you're
doing. This is passage material. This is
a test. It's It's probably some sort of
bizarre passage material slash can I
trust you hybrid or something. And I'm
like either [ __ ] way. I just don't
want to like ever mention it again.
>> See my my fear is that
>> and then if somebody totally independent
says something then I'm like okay maybe.
But you're the reason, one of the
reasons why I would say that publicly,
cuz you know, I knew I'd get [ __ ] for it
and everybody would like, you know, cut
that up and make me seem like a crazy
person. I said it out loud. It's because
people like you have said to me that you
were getting that same [ __ ] So now all
these people speaking loudly are getting
these same messaging and it's like so we
have to defend against that or we become
a part of that machine and mechanism.
Now, ultimately, end of the day, I don't
[ __ ] know, but I highly [ __ ] doubt
that that is an accurate assessment of
what's happening in 2020, 20 36,
whatever.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
>> But hey, I'd be wrong.
>> Do you think I think there's something
so unique going back to Lazar, there's
something so unique about him because
he's this uh kind of hless like normal
person, engineer.
>> He's not he doesn't have any sort of
counterintel background or anything like
that. Uh, do you think we get another
Bob Lazar coming out near term? Because
I think that's what a lot of people
want. I don't think they want the person
who saw the thing on the document or
that, you know, that who knew the other
guy and that person worked directly or,
you know, I think they want another
Lazar.
>> We almost got it and he's dead
to tell me more.
>> Well, you know about this, right?
>> Sullivan,
>> right?
>> Yeah.
>> Okay. So, a little example.
>> Yeah. fact, he was to testify behind
closed doors, not
>> Matthew Sullivan for Matthew Washington,
>> right?
>> Um Matthew Sullivan was one of the 40
people that you know that number's
loose. Um there's probably more that
that David Grush brought to the
attention of the ICIG.
Matthew Sullivan
was fact
two weeks about before he died, I think,
going to testify. We call it behind
closed doors because you know how many
people I've taken in to to speak in DC
that you will never see publicly. This
is to inform them. Taken them in to
testify. You're under oath. You're in a
skiff. I have facilitated
>> over 10.
>> Oh yeah.
>> Yes.
>> Wow.
>> So, so, so the question is this.
Matthew Sullivan. Now, I didn't know him
personally, but I knew he was going to
testify. And that is testifying
and that's why people and the FBI are
investigating if his death was
suspicious
cuz it ain't adding up all the math. Now
he could have just been PTSD and broken
down and scared and but that's not the
word on the wash. So I don't have any
direct knowledge
that I can talk about of that case.
But I do know the FBI is looking into it
and there's a congressional letter and I
do mention if you read between the
lines. I didn't know that this could be
public. I didn't know this was going to
be public. He's one of the two people
that I'm talking about when I say you
know mortal crimes. Um we don't know a
sus it's a suspicious death and um he
was going to testify behind closed
doors. He had direct direct hands on
with the craft. That would be like
Lazar, wouldn't it? So, man, they wanted
to stop Lazar.
They don't want people that would
convince everybody out because now
>> Were and you were you in touch with me?
>> Uh, it's a really sad story and um I
just No.
>> Okay.
>> I was kind of trying to figure that out
recently. I get a lot of signal messages
>> and they delete a lot. And um
I did get a message from him and it
deleted and usually I try to be good
about keeping those but it was on a
thing but I had never talked with him.
>> I I was trying to figure that out cuz of
my memory but um you know I can show you
on my phone what happened.
>> That's a bummer man. It's a bummer
because I was hoping maybe he was
reaching out because I could take people
from embryo scared Dylan Borland. You
see him in the movie that audio he knows
I speak always on speakerphone and buy
my Nest cameras. He knows that. So Dylan
Borland um he knew that I was doing that
for our own protection. And so in the
movie, you hear him really scared and
that's way before we knew that we were
going to get him standing hand to God
and the country and be able to testify.
That road is so hard. It takes me 2 and
1/2 months sometimes for for for
national security people to vet some of
the witnesses that I want to testify to
you. A lot you'll never hear about. You
never got to hear Daniel Gawkarell.
Small story, but I had him unweaponized
after he saw a a triangle. But these
these badass [ __ ] that worked
on the programs, you have to understand
they're so locked down. They're not in
there because they're trusted. They're
in there because they have legacy,
generational trust. Most of the people
in the legacy atmosphere
are It's not because just you are
trusted. It's cuz your grandfather was
trusted, your father was trusted. You
got kids who are going to be trusted
in that same intelligence circles. So
they're so tightly packed in there. um
to get somebody to break out of that
cage is dangerous for a lot of reasons
because why would you do that? You have
to think this is so critically
important. Otherwise, keep your head
down. Do your work. You're on one of the
coolest projects on planet Earth.
Literally.
Do you understand what I'm saying?
>> I do. Yeah. That's crazy that maybe he
was taken out.
>> I I don't know, bro.
>> The timing is weird. The timing. There's
a lot I could say about that,
>> but I Yeah, let the DOJ do their job.
>> Okay. Damn. But like you feel pretty
confident that he was working directly
on the craft.
>> To the best of my know, do I feel very
confident? Absolutely. Do I have all the
information? No. But I think people that
have more information than me and knew
him should speak to you. Not me.
Interest about him. Is there going to be
somebody Man, it shouldn't be on Bob
Lazar. our government should come
forward and this is the problem. The
first releases, bunch of videos, bunch
of documents. Wait a second. Didn't
David Grush raise his hand and say that
we have been generationally exploiting
non-human technology hand to God and to
country and say that we have these
programs and didn't he say that we have
alien bodies biolog didn't he say that
oh [ __ ] where was that in the releases
the the IC inspector general said this
is urgent and credible
>> sure [laughter] but now we got a real
issue
>> the ICIG is the of the intelligence
community.
That that'll that might come out later.
The the the question being this,
>> who's the real watchdog here? Can we
trust them?
>> Well, it doesn't seem like they've acted
on Grush's, you know, report that he
handed in in 2022, 4 years ago. So, man,
>> I don't know. You know, I hear there's a
guy and I hear he's a really good guy
and I hear that he is the current ICIG
and I hear that his name is Christopher
Fox
and I hear that if someone like him
being active ICIG wanted to and didn't
have to recuse himself for some reason
that there's actually four people cuz
I've talked with Chuck who was the first
ICIG in American history. So he, you
know, pretty much I'm pretty sure he
knows the job. I think if they wanted to
that they could rapidly come to
conclusion on that ICIG report. I think
the ICIG
I think that they also have the video
footage of Dylan Borland's testimony.
So I think that this could be very
rapidly sorted out if people wanted to.
You feel what I'm saying?
>> Yeah. And I also think the one thing I
didn't tell you cuz we got into a
different space is the fourth thing that
I heard directly from ODNI
is that Dylan Borland drew a fourth
drawing
of a sensor system. Oh, but that's
really classified because it's not UFO
related at all. Now wait a second. They
were asking me, did he draw that for me?
[ __ ] He drew me a triangle on
camera. Didn't draw nothing else. Here's
what I know as fact. Dylan Borland
wouldn't even know what the [ __ ] they're
talking about or how to How do you draw
a sensor system, Jesse? You're a smart
guy. You're basically a [ __ ]
scientist. How do you draw a sensor
system? So, they lied to me. Why did
they lie to me? They lied to me to get
Dylan Borland on treason, which carries
a life sentence or death penalty. They
lied to me about Matthew Brown saying
he's a Jewhating racist.
>> That's so crazy.
>> Oh, when I told him he was at a Jewish
wedding, he was like, "What?" By the
way, he's part Jewish.
>> Let's Let's back up and tell people who
who is Matthew Brown.
>> Okay. I just want you to know that OD
and I ran an operation for nine months.
Not all of them are bad people.
Actually, all of them are good people,
but some of them are doing a job. what
their mission was. Their mission, if I
had to assess, it's just my opinion, was
to co-opt me and George to go against
whistleblowers and to fabricate
evidence, fabricate evidence against an
American hero, a whistleblower named
Dylan Borland, to fabricate
evidence against Matthew Brown,
to pressure everybody into a corner. But
why?
ultimately
to control Congress's ability and
ambition to continue what they're doing
having hearings.
I could probably prove that. Actually, I
could prove that in the court of law.
So, wow, [ __ ] We got that going
on. Then put on top of that, did you see
a few days ago that the head of the dig,
the director's initiative group, which
was the part of OD and I that came to me
and to George first, and we provided
them a ton of whistleblowers and people
just saying, "Hey, telling the
whistleblowers, we don't know if we can
trust them, but do your best, right?"
And they did it. Most of them talked
with them. I think very smartly David
Gush didn't.
I don't think I am confident Tulsi
Gabbert was completely unaware that the
CIA
was running an operation through ODNI
on journalists on whistleblowers who
were bringing in saying they have
ultimate authority to protect you. You
can tell them anything, right? But wink
wink to the whistleblowers like really
careful. throw them some underhanded
pitches first to make sure they they're
not running something. Here's what we
find out. A few days ago,
a CIA agent goes in front of Congress
and he says, "I ran the dig." He got
emotional in it. He's like, "The CIA,"
he said, "I ran the dig, the director's
initiative under Tulsi and I don't think
she was aware that she had these rogue
elements, you know, like we're talking
about little cabals from the CIA, by the
way, running this op on us." And he says
like he's a whistleblower. He says he
found out that when he was running the
anomalous health effects, the
COVID
coverup and the UAP initiative of the
dig
that the C they found out and he's CIA.
They found out the CIA was spying
on the whistleblowers.
That means everybody that we brought in,
their computers, their cell phones,
everything. He's self admitting. He's
self admitting. CIA's response was he
wasn't authorized to speak to you on
Twitter. You're like, "What the [ __ ]
You're not denying those claims? That is
illegal. He said that's illegal. He got
emotional." And I don't know this guy,
John. John something III. I don't know
him. Oh boy. We should have a talk
because if you ran the dig, did you know
that they were trying to entrap me,
George, Dylan, Matthew, Lu Alzando,
Lacatsky,
um Jay Stratton?
Like, did you know that as the head of
the dig? Did you know that? But I
suspect I want to see the unclassified
version of that report. Who's Matthew
Brown? That's what you asked.
>> Yeah. Okay.
>> Wow. That's uh
>> bro
>> interesting.
>> And that's just breakfast. Let's get to
lunch.
>> You have the uh agency that's supposed
to oversee all other intelligence
agencies being redteamed by what's
supposed to be a subordinate agency in
the CIA. That's a pretty wild phenomena.
I think that's why people like you
because you just took a very complex
thing that I'm very emotional about
because they tried to hurt people I care
about and use me to do it and you just
made it simpified.
[laughter]
[gasps]
>> I tried. Thank you. Yeah. Okay. Who's
Matt Brown? While they are observing the
Russian vessels, a large black triangle
materializes or decloaks or something.
The point is is it did not move. They
appeared above the directly above these
ships probably no more than 200 m.
>> Matt Brown
courageous as [ __ ] I mean just
goosebump courageous as [ __ ] Matt Brown
absolutely 100% worthy of your trust.
Has a loving family relationship. I met
his dad, his mom, uh I think two of his
brothers.
um talked with his wife. Um he's got
cats,
you know, he's had a
>> seems like a kind of a gentle soul.
>> He he's he's he's not as fragile as
people think.
>> He cuz you know, he'll tremble when he
gets um angry like or scared or nervous.
And I'd be nervous as [ __ ] too. Um I
snuck him in, you know, to have a secret
congressional briefing with three
members who all said yes to me.
um like snuck him in with my camera
crew. Um he has
balls of steel.
He's so smart. What an asset to America.
Patriot. He's a patriot.
Worthy of your trust. I said that. I
want to say it again. Um he revealed
Immaculate Constellation to the world.
That was a thing.
>> [sighs]
>> He has endured I more than I'm
comfortable saying here.
>> Um, from a personal standpoint,
>> he was at the office of the secretary of
defense, right?
>> State Department.
>> He was at the State Department.
>> Yeah, that was his main job, but he was
at Pentagon before that
>> and he had TSSCI and and yeah,
>> he was doing some like audit or
something. How did he run into all of
this UFO related info?
>> [ __ ] I mean, I think Matt should talk
for himself. So, so you notice sometimes
people say I don't I I am so protective
of people and you know there's so much
that goes into my brain that like I have
to be um gentle with because one wrong
little word and I expose something they
didn't want exposed about them
personally and then they get harassed.
>> But but high level he was doing some
routine thing and he bumped into
documentation.
>> I can tell you this part.
>> Yeah. So on a shared Intel link server,
there was something misappropriately
uploaded. So anybody can go in, but at
the time he was kind of in a purgatory.
It's like [ __ ] He has to like basically
clean up a bunch of files. Now he's
fidious. Also good word, right? Um so he
goes in and looks through everything and
puts him in the right place. Boom. Sees
Immaculate Constellation.
The heck is this? Right. It actually had
a picture of Lou Alzando on it. Not that
Lou made that. It was saying that Lou
came forward in the UAP space, but it
caught his attention, right? Okay. And
then he starts going through it and he's
like, "Dude, this is not supposed to be
on this server." So, what did a real
patriot like Matthew Brown do first
thing? because you could everybody can
see he goes to his boss or his boss's
boss and he's like um you know hey this
was not supposed to be there I was not
supposed to see this it looks like a
working report um and they're like okay
cool goes back to his desk or whatever
and I hope I'm saying this right and
Matt you can speak for yourself and you
will very soon people can find out so
how I understand it is he was so nervous
by how they reacted
to the spillage they call it where you
see something that you're not supposed
to be read into that he's like dude
they're going to throw me under the bus
if I need to tell somebody else so he
goes and tells somebody else and the
reaction kept being this like okay but
like no asurances to him are you doing
the right thing so that gets under your
skin you get a little worried right I
mean that your whole career is your um
is your clearances if they even put your
clearances in purgatory like they did to
Dylan for years. They're not saying you
don't got it. And these are people
trusted by our government. In Dylan's
case, really, really trusted, bro. I
can't say the agency specifically you
worked for, but you could subcontracted
for the big ones. Mhm. Okay. So, there's
Matthew alone. Who you going to call?
Batman. Like, you know who you going to
call, dude? So he proactively being a
very thoughtful person documented
everything every move everything
documented for self-p protection also
cuz he's like you know why did why did I
get exposed to that you know and also I
think as a curious guy he had some time
on his hands and probably um kept his
eye out for UAP information right and
here's a guy that like an all source
analyst I don't think he was but like
one you kind of start putting together
what they call the mosaic and and and
you look for what you know to be true
then as a beautiful patriotic person
when he realized what was going on and
how dangerous it was and that's as far
as I'm going to say about that he can
talk um cuz not everything's cleared for
him yet he can't like go ask state
department again
um
he came to me very early on
and
was able to
get that information
into the hands of the people that I
trusted
and that and I do trust still and were
in position of power and could assess
it. That's how it began with Matthew
Brown. That's how it began. He didn't
know who to trust at first. he made some
mistake or um we won't get into all of
that but some people are not worthy of
your trust at all. Journalists don't try
to pay people ever, Jesse.
>> Interesting.
>> That's not a journalist.
>> There was something,
>> bro. Let's not get into it, right? You
said you don't want to.
>> Okay,
>> so let's not
>> We can if you want, but
>> dude, [laughter]
let's talk about things that excite us.
Okay.
>> One day people will understand.
>> Yeah.
>> So, one day people will understand what
makes me angry.
>> I didn't know anything about
>> I know you didn't.
>> Possible pain.
>> That's why you [laughter] No, no.
We're not saying specifics yet. Don't
make an assumption. You might have just
made an assumption.
>> Well, I think I made a correct
assumption, but we can move on. So, this
is going to be so awkward for your
audience, but Jesse and I, we we made
one agreement going on
[laughter and gasps]
>> is that there's, you know, we're we're
just going to talk freely and that we're
going to enjoy ourselves and talk about
what makes us happy and inspires us and
and sparks our curiosity. It's basically
what we said last night, right?
>> Yeah. Exactly.
>> So, I want I want to do that. You know,
this is not
>> And to your credit, I did say I like to
focus way more on the truth than people
drama.
>> Right. Right.
>> Because I think it's so much more
interesting. But but it's an important
heristic if a person is also you know a
conduit for information.
>> So people people drama I stay out of
>> but dangerous people I inform everybody
about it
>> because the thing is is that you got to
know who to trust if so you you're not
working in government. I'm not working
in government. So we sign none of these
NDA [ __ ] We don't got to do [ __ ] [ __ ]
all when it comes to UAP stuff, right?
With listening to what people tell us to
do like daddy, right?
>> But the other people do.
>> So the stakes for them are so much
higher. So imagine if there were a bunch
of whistleblowers and they go to the
wrong person to say, "I need to see if
you can get me from embryo to hand to
God and the American public." Right? And
you go to the wrong person.
That could be one of those five traps I
told you.
>> Mhm.
>> And and and then you're controlled.
>> They own you and you're [ __ ]
So if you're outside of this world, that
might feel dramatic to you. The problem
is is that it's true and that is a real
issue. So, let's say you've got I get
photos from people at Wright Patterson
and they've got up on their corkboards,
you know, weaponized stickers, Jesse
Michaels podcast, their favorite people
come up to me on the street and tell me
that they love your podcast. I sent you
videos with some of your fans. So, like
>> you get people in these offices and they
got they're they're just fans, okay?
They don't know much about UFOs, but
they they saw some [ __ ] on radar. This
happened or that happened. Then you
narrow in from those, let's say that's
5,000 people, right, that have hit me up
in the last year that are inside
government. Then you narrow down. So now
you've got, let's say, 500 people. So
those 500 people, they know something a
little bit more specifically about UAP
and whatnot and the reality. And then
you you narrow down to let's say 50
people. Now they feel like they want to
tell Congress or Senate or or formally
report. I'll get those calls. How do I
formally do this? What's the mechanism?
Who can I trust, not trust? And I'm
like, okay, well, here's how you do it.
I'll link you with them. We'll make a
call. I'll bring you in. If it's really
important, I'll meet you there. We'll do
this. Signal is okay for that. Then you
get from those, what was that, 50
people? You you get in and you narrow
down to, let's say, 10 people. Now,
those 10 people, they know something
more. And those 10 people, they really
need to tell people, but um okay, so you
got to deal with those 10 people. Then
you narrow down to let's say
five people.
The amount of information they have
compared to those 500, 5,000. It's like
critical.
It's provable.
It can be national security um issue. It
could be dangerous.
How hard is it, do you think, for
someone like that to break from the fold
and say, "I have [ __ ] tried
everything. I am now going to leak
something to a journalist I trust, which
is an illegal act,
and I've never solicited." I I actually
tell people if like a young kid called
me from a base and, you know, blah blah
blah, and I go, "Stop. Don't even talk
to me. You got a long career ahead of
you. Whatever you saw or think you saw,
keep it in your head." and one day
you'll be able to speak freely about it.
Do not tell me. You know that joke I
have going right now, don't call me and
I've got that number going to that's
what that's born from.
>> I say to people, don't call me ever
again. Find me in 10 years when we're
living in a different world. You got a
long life ahead of you is not that
important for your life and your family.
But I'm just trying to show you that the
amount of people that know, dude.
But then the amount of people that know
that would think it's so important
to leak something is so minuscule, it's
so tiny that it baffles me to this day
that people all day, every day contact
me and George and they put that trust in
us and they should and we're trustworthy
and and you know we do get leaks, we
assess them for years and we our primary
things do not hurt American security.
I think that's why um we've been
effective. But I'm just trying to show
you, man. Like you talk about a cabal
and all this. I don't know who knows all
this, but I know
>> who doesn't want you to know about it.
>> Yeah.
>> Matthew Brown's super interesting to me,
especially your your interviews with
George Knap and and him. Uh because he
obviously ran into some pretty hardcore,
you know, Immaculate Constellation
documents around quarantining sensors.
>> Yeah. To be real clear, Matthew Brown is
not a leaker. He did everything by the
book cuz we just went from that
conversation.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Not not a segway in my head.
>> Matthew Brown tried to do everything
under God that he could do the the right
way and he did. He got he got prepub
from State Department, you know? So,
it's like just w here we are. Matthew
Brown, you want to say something? Go.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, so he ran into
all this kind of documentation of this
stuff and he saw video and you know,
photos and that sort of thing. Um, and
then he has kind of a whole worldview
that he's kind of associated with his
findings that feels almost like gnostic
in nature. And he talks at the end of
the interview, he says, you know, um,
people are a resource maybe for the NHI.
And he says things that to me are
extremely intriguing because I prefer
actually in some ways like the
sensemaking layer like what's the
worldview what's the ontology that you
know you were talking about earlier that
comes from all the data not just what's
the data uh sometimes I think we we
overindex on the data itself. So I'm
extremely like my curiosity is peaked
and then my other side of my brain is
like but how did he come to that
conclusion?
>> That's a personal thing.
>> Sure. Yeah. So everybody um again I
don't want to speak about people they
should speak about themselves but you
know he has a very fascinating mind. I I
can say that like from his own personal
stuff. The way he um sees
the world is a I mean I learned so much
you know from like a sensei something's
born before in him. uh even if we
disagree on the fundamental nature of
that reality.
>> I think what you're highlighting is that
online he's said some very gnostic kind
of quoting things and
>> yeah that's the way his mind
>> talk about almost like a white house
timeline manipulator too like they have
sort of timeline yeah like they have
some sort of AI timeline thing.
>> Oh really?
>> Yeah. It was like a super super AI at
the White House like
>> we should always be ourselves. Right.
That's the thing [laughter] I I keep in
this interview. I keep thinking Jesse
asked a question. He's got something to
say and then I say so much. We got to
just be ourselves. Matthew has a very
unique way of thinking. He's so like
pointed, facidious, and he'll he'll be
silent a lot of time on calls and just
listening and then he'll say something
and it's very thought out, very
thoughtful. So I think what you're
seeing is what we call um personality.
>> Yeah. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. I just Okay.
Well, at some point maybe when this is
all said and done 10 years into the
future of disclosure and it's all
acceptable, I want to go deep with him
or if I can at any point go deep with
him on how did he get from the data to
that worldview because the worldview is
interesting to me. I'm like what you
know what happened there? But um I
realize he's got to he's got to speak
for
>> but I don't think that was from like if
you read the documents
>> Yeah.
>> or saw the videos that he um has
testified to seeing. Right. Not he
hasn't been allowed yet with his hand up
in front of Congress. We fought hard for
that. He didn't want to have his face
out there, you know, at all. Um
>> but I think if you read the same stuff,
cuz I know a lot of people that read and
saw the same stuff and more than he did,
they don't have the same world view.
>> Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. So it's not
like in the document.
>> That's just his interpretation.
>> That's what I'm saying.
>> Okay. And I
>> Well, that's helpful. I mean that even
the what you just said is really helpful
that other people have consumed the same
thing and not come to the same world
view.
>> Matthew Brown has has this much of the
mosaic.
>> Yeah.
>> A tiny tiny. All he did was be a
whistleblower.
>> Yeah. But he because there's a lot of
other things that that that he can't
talk about that were weren't there's a
lot of things
corruption
things to do with um WMDs that was his
specialty that that he also whistleblue
on that people don't know about you know
it's just not public. That's freaky.
[laughter] But um [gasps] on another
note because I'm I'm sure you can't say
more about that. Um and maybe maybe a
good note to to to end on and and and
and close this amazing conversation. Uh
what do you hope for the world uh you
know 10 years from today you know
snapshot of where we are with respect to
this issue specifically?
What do you what do you hope uh to see?
It's like I'm you know I can't look back
but I'm trying to look forward now. was
kind of um
if the truth
is that
they're a technologically advanced craft
that they've been here since the
beginning of recorded human history if
not before
that
major
all the major technological
nations on earth
have started to try to understand
and replicate and grow and evolve from
that technology.
And if the truth is that we've harmed
people and lied,
our representatives have lied to us. And
if that is true
and if we have biological entities that
are not from planet Earth.
>> Have you talked to anybody who's said
they've seen biologics?
>> Yes. In my work 100%.
>> Wow.
>> A ton. But Jesse
>> Yeah.
>> I need more proof and I can't solicit.
>> Sure.
>> As a journalist, a specific word. So of
course, do I believe them?
About half of them. The the top dogs.
Other people, they just want to seem
cool or they want to get into my head
for later.
Yeah. Yeah, I've heard that. Mostly
autopsy reports.
>> Okay.
>> Yeah.
>> Anybody like in person with the
>> people have told me that, Jesse? But
like like actually a public interview I
did once um the anonymous interview um
when I brought Richard Dolan in to
interview this man as he was dying on
like I think it was like a dialysis
machine and we got him out of the thing
and he came his wife didn't want him
there.
>> This Oscar Wolf.
>> Yeah. Yeah. That's his real name, but I
wasn't allowed to release that for like
a long time. I have his DD24.
>> Crazy story. It's fascinating.
>> I had to be real quiet about his real
name for a long time. But it was I have
his DD214s all stuff. I setting up that
interview with Ruben Langden who set up
the entire citizen hearing on
disclosure.
>> He saw one he saw the alien getting
interviewed according to him at at S4
Area 51 I believe at S4
we viewed the autopsy film
and then the colonel said what we've got
in here is we're interviewing
a [clears throat and snorts] gray alien
>> bro. Um, that is so in my ancient past.
I'd say just watch the video. My
impression is that um, if I recall, he
was one of the people that I'm saying
that has like said that because you
asked me a live alien. No, not a ton of
people have said to me they they've been
or seen a live alien in government
capacity.
>> Yeah.
>> But versus experience.
>> Yeah. Yeah. But lot of autopsy read outs
and I know which autopsy. So that you
you start narrowing it down after the
years and you know people that don't
know each other have kind of run across
>> enough where you're pretty high
confidence. That's that's a component of
it. Yeah.
>> Oh, we got bodies.
>> But like I don't Are they cybernetic?
Like are they um printed flesh with AI
high [ __ ] minds? I I don't [ __ ]
know. Um
>> but yeah, I think that's the ultimate
thing. So you're ask you were asking me
to go what do I hope? Yeah. What do you
hope? I'm just trying to stay for the
detail. No, no. I'm trying to stay
>> on your track. So it's like
ultimately
if I keep saying if if this is true, if
this is true, this is my best
assessment, right? Then
I would hope
that those tasked
with withholding the fundamental nature
of what it means to be human, which is
to interact with a a larger
idea of of being, would then stand the
[ __ ] down, tell the [ __ ] truth, and
let human beings decide died for them
[ __ ] selves if they can handle it.
That's what I would hope. Now, people
have hoped for disclosure for a long
time, you know, way before me. Before I
was born,
I was born in 77. Before I was born,
none of them got it.
>> Now, we are getting something right now,
but we're not having the conversation.
>> No. But I hope it uh it snowballs. You
know, I think you kind of saw it with
the Epstein stuff. where like a little
bit came out and then people were like,
"Whoa, there's something there." And
then they wanted more and they wanted
more and they wanted more and then you
have all of a sudden representatives in
the civilian, you know, Congress who are
fighting to get more out and you get
more and more documentation
and slowly it just kind of snowballs.
And I think that might be similar with
this topic or JFK or a lot of these
things where the consensus just shifts
over over a long time horizon. Um, so I
while I you can sort of, you know, I
know a lot of people kind of belittled
this drop or think it's a distraction or
whatever, uh, I think it's, uh, the
beginning of infinity. It's not it's not
the end, you know. It's it's the
beginning of a possible paradigm shift.
And that's that's so exciting.
>> The beginning of infinity. I I was
saying it's the floor, not the ceiling.
It is the beginning of infinity. I am
hopeful that we're going to get
somewhere. But the only way we get there
is if we push and we do it
asymmetrically and everybody that has a
voice and everybody that has a desire.
Just use it. Just move. Keep talking.
Don't take nothing personal. Sticks and
stones will break my bones, but words
will never hurt me. Right? Just push.
Push. And I bet you that tomorrow we
will know more um than we do today. I
bet you when people see this, we'll know
more than than we knew the day before.
And um yeah, man, I'm optimistic. I'm
glad to have you in the fight. And
everybody that has a microphone or
thumbs
can just make some noise.
>> On that beautiful inspirational note, go
watch Sleeping Dog, check out
Weaponized, subscribe, and anything else
you want to plug.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Um, I want to say that
it it took a long time for me and Jesse
to to trust each other because trust is
never given. It's always it's always
earned and then it's it's built and then
every day you keep reinforcing, you
know, to the the trick of being
trustworthy is to to to actually be
trustworthy. And so I'm I'm grateful
that we get this um construct the room
and and we get to do this for the first
time and that you know we will continue
this dialogue until we're old old men.
>> That's what I kept thinking this whole
conference is so fun and you know I
would love to run it back. So
>> yeah. But just keep fighting, keep
pushing, keep doing what you're doing
and I would like to do a um twominute
rapid fire because I have questions for
you. You can put it in your episode or
not.
>> Sure. Yeah.
>> So, this is back and forth,
>> rapid fire.
>> Okay.
>> Okay.
>> Um,
did you start this what you're doing
with the intention to try to get
information to the public that you
thought was important?
>> Yes.
>> Are you independent or are you
controlled?
>> Independent.
>> I know.
Um,
do you have
people that support you in your life so
that you'll keep going?
>> Like loved ones and
>> Yes.
>> Yeah, I do. Yeah.
>> Okay.
>> Have you found friends that you really
trust at this point in this part of your
journey?
>> I have. Yeah.
>> On this topic.
>> I had before this I
>> on this topic.
>> On this topic. Yeah. Yes. For sure.
Yeah.
>> Will you protect that?
>> Always. Yeah. Before anything, before
you know relationships, over over
anything,
>> will you tell the truth if you find out
something is incorrect and will you tell
it loudly?
>> Oh, yeah.
>> I believe you.
>> Thank you, Jeremy. I'm glad I passed the
test.
>> It's not a test. I like I learned those
things about you through time.
>> Yeah.
>> But now maybe people learn it about you
because you just told it how it is.
>> Yeah. I love it.
>> There we go. You got a, you know, a lot
of people that, you know, are suspicious
of you.
>> I know.
>> And, um, I was.
>> Yeah. Fair enough.
>> Yeah.
>> But here we are.
>> Here we are. It's frustrating to me. And
it it's so it makes me want to quit
sometimes cuz it's like uh it's like
[ __ ] Like what what do you do? You
know, like it's a the offense on a
conspiracy about yourself is always
going to beat the defense. Like you can
always say [ __ ] about me and whatever.
And so I c I can always say you're
wrong, you know, you're you're just
wrong and I can point to the facts, but
then you can always construct a new
thing. And so, you know, it's like uh
yeah, it's tough. I don't know that is a
reality is that people do want to quit.
And that is the work of a very organized
attempt sometimes. Sometimes. And we
need to identify that and we need to
bring it into the light. and you're not
gonna quit because you told me just now
that you do have people that love you
and support you about keep going
>> and it feels it feels like a mission
that's higher than me. So that's why I
the part that wants to quit is like the
ego that wants to remain intact and like
wants to stay out of the limelight.
>> Fight or flight. You want you don't want
to be in pain.
>> In pain. Yeah. And like part of life.
And you mentioned stuff around um you
know your your personal life being
encroached on. I've had similar things.
Yes.
>> That freaked me out and I'm like and
then so it's it's funny to see that
simultaneously
you have people calling you a spook and
it's like you're you're uh be on both
you're being flanked and I'm like I'm
not a [ __ ] spook and go the [ __ ] away
and just let me you know and and uh
>> and yeah and and I'm sure you feel
sympathetic to this as Well, there's so
much that you put out that they they
wouldn't even be into this [ __ ] if you
hadn't had put the thing out.
>> So, they're [ __ ] using your lexicon
and all the stuff you bring out. They're
taking that, but then they're throwing
you in the garbage or whatever. And it's
like, [ __ ] off. Like,
>> so the thing is, it's not about you. I
know. It's not about me.
>> It's not.
>> And I've got tunnel vision. So, I'm
seeing you right now. I don't see
nothing else. You You got to do that.
But I'm going to crack you on one thing.
and I hope you find it useful later.
Okay.
>> Okay.
>> Which is that you said something about
defense and you said something about
like when you're getting all these
attacks from every side and people make
you want to quit. Okay. Then they win if
you quit. Now quit. If you find a
beautiful girl and you want an island
and just like go live over there, you
don't need to be doing this. I know that
about you. You don't need to be doing
this. I don't need to be doing this.
Right?
But I can. So I will. So the one thing I
want to correct you on is the best
defense is to outpace, out maneuver, and
outperform. Never look back ne unless
you're reflecting, but your mom and dad
and brothers and sisters and your
friends will tell you if you're being a
[ __ ] and an idiot and help you
self-reflect. So they're better at it
than you anyway, right? So you look
forward, you keep going. If you want out
at any time, make it your own choice.
The best thing you do when you're
getting attacked is don't look back.
Keep moving forward. Don't think about
those attacks. Don't let them in. Don't
penetrate them. They don't know you and
they don't own you. You're independent.
[ __ ] fight. We need you. I appreciate
that.
>> Well, thank you, Jeremy.
>> Love you, buddy. [music] Good to see
>> you, too, man.
>> Damn. Oh, that was great.
>> That was so cool.
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