How much does the partner that someone
chooses reveal about their level of
selfworth, do you think?
>> I like this. Starting with a strong one.
Um, well, I want to add a little bit of
context to that. How does the partner
that someone chooses reveal how much
they love themselves, how they see
themselves? It can tell a lot, but I
think more importantly is the way that
they feel about someone's judgment of
that. So, the way that I frame it is if
someone told you that they could tell
how much you love yourself by the
partner that you've chosen, how would
you feel about that? It's kind of like
if I say, "Oh, is that a new shirt?" and
you're a little insecure about it.
You're like, "Well, does it make me a
little do I look a little heavy? Do I
look a little my muscles look small?"
Right? You're like, there's an
insecurity there
>> versus Thank you. It is a new shirt.
Doesn't it look great? You know, this
color, the new cut, you're right. You're
secure in it. So when someone says, "I
can tell how much you love yourself by
the partner that you've chosen," there's
a bit of intuition in that in your
reaction to that.
>> It's an interesting prompt to give
somebody.
>> Yes.
>> And the sense of
or
>> Yes. And I I always try I frame it up
that way intentionally because it's not
about someone actually passing a
judgment on you. It's your
interpretation of that judgment.
>> It's like it's like a roshock test for
your own partner.
>> Yes. It's like I am not what I think I
am. I am not what you think I am. I am
what you think you think I think I am.
[laughter] Yeah,
>> we did it. We did it. Um it's
interesting though, right? Like the uh
the idea that if you feel like you're
being mistreated
and you believe
that the love that you are prepared to
accept is a reflection of your level of
selfworth.
>> Mhm.
>> That probably tells you everything that
you need to know about your
relationship.
>> Yes. Well, it's does it feel like a
compliment or does it feel like an
insult? Does it make you proud of the
love that you've accepted and the
treatment that you've tolerated? Or does
it really hit that sensitive part of you
that's like been treated like [ __ ] for
years?
>> Like this is or or simply this has
really just never felt right.
>> You know, it feels kind of mediocre.
Maybe it's not a reflection that you
totally hate yourself. It's more just
like that doesn't really live up to the
way that I know love could feel. and
someone who really loved themselves
probably would have gone and found
something that really aligns rather than
just settling for what was there.
>> There's a lot in there, but it requires
the introspection to really get into the
meat of it into the context.
>> Where does selfrust come from?
[gasps]
>> Selfrust
Selfrust will be my greatest obsession
for the foreseeable future. Um,
selfchest is essentially building a
relationship with yourself that allows
you to know who you are, like who you
are, and build a life that actually
feels like yours. That's like, we
summarize it. That's the brief synopsis.
Selfrust to me is
ultimately what you have to build in
order to find fulfillment, sustainable
fulfillment in this life. The way that I
see it, the majority of our issues, um,
emotional anyway, issues come from
uncertainty. What's going to happen to
me? What are people going to think of
me? What am I going to think of myself?
What happens if this uncontrollable
thing plays out? How am I going to
handle it? But more importantly, how am
I going to feel if this person breaks up
with me? If I don't get this job, if
someone that I love dies, if there
right, most of it is how am I going to
feel on the other end of that? And
there's no way to outrun that
uncertainty. There's no means of control
or no ability, no strategy that was
going to apply to all of those
situations except for trusting that you
will be there in and in every single one
of those situations. You'll be you'll be
on the other end of that supporting
yourself.
>> The way that I kind of break it down,
there's four C's of selfrust. Number one
is curiosity. So, do you know what
you're feeling? Do you know why you're
feeling that way? Do you know what you
want in this situation, in the next
situation, in life in general? Um, do
you know what you don't want? How well
do you how much space do you give
yourself to really ask yourself the hard
questions or the fun questions and learn
the answers? The next one is capacity.
So, how good are you at being
emotionally flexible? When discomfort
arises, do you trust yourself to stay in
the disappointment, in the sadness, to
support yourself through that? When
things go really well, do you trust
yourself to not totally self-sabotage
and [ __ ] it all up, screw it all up? Um,
[laughter] and then you're looking at
compassion. That's the fourth one. So,
do you have uh compassion for your own
not not just yourself, but also an
understanding of um your intentions?
Like, do you trust your heart? you have
compassion, that you're
well-intentioned, and that still means
you're going to screw up sometimes,
right? Can you recognize your own
humanity? And then the last one, C, uh,
last C, is commitment, which is, do I
know the kind of life that I want to
build? Do I know the kind of person that
I want to be? And am I committed,
devoted to bringing that to fruition? Am
I committed to this life? Because that's
what's going to move you forward through
all of that. So, in short, that's what
selfrust is.
>> [sighs and gasps]
>> Which one do people struggle with the
most?
>> Either capacity or curiosity.
>> Why?
>> I think we like to
pretend that we're curious, especially
in today's day and age. I have a label
for everything. I'll just find the
label. I'll explain it all away. Give me
the diagnosis and I can stick a band-aid
on it and we can just keep pushing.
You sell yourself short when you do
that. You sell yourself short when you
don't take the time to maybe question
the label or look underneath the label.
What's What are you really feeling? What
are you experiencing? What makes up this
pattern that you don't like? Um, are you
picking shitty partners because you have
daddy issues? Slap the label on it and
do away with it. Well, I've explained
it. I'm done with the curiosity. What do
you mean? Let me move on to the next
one. Rather than there's an association
that I have where love is supposed to
feel like abandonment.
>> There's this association that I have
that love is supposed to hurt. So I'm
supposed to expect these like high highs
and then these super low lows.
That's the real problem with my
association with love. If I just slapped
the label on it, y
>> I'd miss the whole the all the important
stuff, all the context.
>> It's a protection mechanism in some
ways. A shallow level of curiosity that,
oh well, now I've pathized it or
identified it or given a term for it.
That's enough. I've done the work. You
know, that that's actually antithetical
to doing the work. It's actually pushing
you away from it because it's making you
feel like you've done something whilst
actually stopping you from diving into
the thing that would have fixed it.
>> Bingo. Totally.
>> Completely. And the other part is the
curiosity continues on. I mean, it's
kind of ever changing the way that we
feel, the things that we want, change
shape, change form. So, there's there's
a lot there. Um, and then capacity.
We're not really good at sitting in
discomfort. We're pretty good at finding
every possible way to get out of it,
around it, under it, over it, all of the
things.
And um
we typically prefer what's familiar over
what's unfamiliar. So if we're used to
our certain few emotions, we're used to
good bit of disappointment, good bit of
sadness, a little bit of anxiety, and
then a smidge of joy, we're going to
probably stay within that ratio unless
we intentionally decide to expand the
capacity there
>> where it's like, no, no, no, no. I'm not
going to stay in the disappointment. I'm
going to teach myself how to move
through it. I'm going to support myself
in whatever I need to do to move through
this rather than just staying in it and
drowning in it. Whether that be
>> or fleeing from it
>> or fleeing from it. Yes. Exactly. And
the the positive quote unquote emotions.
It's the same thing. We we like to
think, well, if I can just get rid of my
anger and my sadness and my
disappointment and all of that, I can
just relish in all of these good
emotions. And the reality is 99% of us,
if we took a good hard look at it, when
the good stuff comes up, we're either
waiting for the shoe to drop, well, it's
not going to last long. So, what's it
going to be? What's going to hurt me?
Right? We're all we've already checked
out of the happy moment because we're
expecting something to come around and
and kick us over. Or it's self-inflicted
and we self-sabotage anyway because we
don't trust it. M you mentioned there
about uh people feeling unusually
familiar with negative patterns in the
present related to something that
they're probably uh they become
acclimatized to from their past.
>> How much of having a type do you think
is just unresolved trauma showing up in
adulthood?
[laughter]
>> Oh, this is a good one. Can I open my
new tonic for this one?
>> Get that in you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You
need it. Watch the nails.
>> Thank you.
>> Uh, yeah. Look, I I
>> What do you think? What's your opinion
on that?
>> I think an awful lot of the things that
feel exciting and activating to people
in adulthood are absolutely familiarity
masquerading as resonance.
>> It's just something from your past. Um,
there's this line from Kathy Overman
where she says, uh, "Your nervous system
will always choose a familiar hell over
an unfamiliar heaven."
>> And Jesus, [ __ ] if that's not true,
right? Like, how many people
had the distant and difficult to please
father that they had to perform for
>> and then if love is easily given to them
in adulthood, they feel like they should
run away
>> or it's not worthy of something. Uh
there's something wrong with people who
show them love too easily. And there's
something alluring about people that
make them work for it,
>> even though by definition they're
probably the people who aren't showing
up ready for a relationship and are
going to turn your life upside down. or
um somebody's mother was unusually
fragile uh or um explosive and uh they
had to walk on eggshells and they get
into a relationship with somebody who
seems to be slightly unpredictable and
explode when you might not anticipate
it.
>> Mhm.
>> And that is felt by their nervous system
as I've been here before. There is a
there's kind of an iron law I think of
of attachment that
if you have something that's unresolved
from your childhood, you will continue
to repeat that pattern until you
>> Mhm.
>> finally resolve it in adulthood or never
do. And I think a lot of people end up
in the never do,
>> right? that just it's like a book that
you started when you were three years
old, never finished, and then you spend
the rest of your life trying to find a
couple of chapters to finish it off.
[laughter]
>> I like that [gasps] it you're speaking
to the uncertainty that I was mentioning
earlier where it seems like most of the
issues come down to uncertainty
where what would happen if I didn't
repeat that pattern? What would happen
if I sought out love that wasn't similar
to what I've always known love to be?
>> That's somehow scarier to our brains,
whether it's conscious or unconscious,
often unconscious. That's somehow
scarier than the shitty, often
destructive relationships that this
familiar love brings. But there's
certainty in it. So if I can rely on the
certainty, at least I know, at least I
can choose the devil that I know rather
than the potential devil or the
potential heaven that I don't know.
>> But I think the only way the only way
that we get around that is by being
intentional, by trusting ourselves to go
figure out what we really want and lean
in to the uncertainty and the lack of
familiarity.
>> Why is it the case, do you think that so
many people mistake anxiety for
chemistry?
that [laughter] it's again it's another
eye and law. Am I wrong? Am I wrong?
>> Well, I mean the funny thing about it is
you're you're just talking about a bunch
of bodily sensations. Yeah.
>> They're effect a effective feelings.
>> And so it's kind of funny because you
asked that and my first thought is well
it doesn't have to be anxiety and it
doesn't have to be it could be simply
excitement versus to other people it's
the red flag. So it's really just your
understanding of those bodily
sensations. So, if you're talking to
someone who grew up with really steady
caregivers, really attuned caregivers,
pretty much everything you just said, if
you're looking at that person and their
association with love is going to be
calm and steady and consistent versus
someone else who's really used to
inconsistent caregivers not feeling like
a priority, love being hot and cold or
hurtful, then that sense of adrenaline
that kicks in. When you meet someone who
mimics the same, you're going to think,
"Oh, that's love. That's love. Yeah.
>> Because I'm so used to these these highs
and these lows. And so the adrenaline in
the body is essentially either a red
flag or you've learned that that
sensation is what love is.
>> Love.
>> Isn't it interesting the way that this
stuff gets modeled? So let's say that
somebody's grown up in a two parent
household uh and it's been the same
parents from when they were born. You're
getting to not only have your
relationship with both attachment
figures and you're getting to learn what
care and regulation and this is what
happens when I I need someone to look
after me and this is what happens when
I've got a problem and this is what
happens when I've done something wrong
like am I safe in realizing that I'm
going to be loved on the other side of
this that I can do something wrong and
it doesn't make me worried about
abandonment. Um, but you're also getting
to model the example, the first romantic
relationship example that you've ever
seen, which is the two caregivers
between themselves.
>> So, it's kind of this weird
reinforcement loop, right? You've got
it's almost weird to call it
environmental because it's so preverbal.
>> Mhm.
>> And it's it's it's it's just beyond what
your mom did during pregnancy, you know?
It's like it's almost the same as your
mom smoking during pregnancy or drinking
or doing whatever or like being real
calm and and and looking after her
choline levels and eating loads of eggs,
whatever. I don't know what women do. Um
I need to do research on that. Um it it
is just outside of that window, but
you're so permeable.
>> Mhm.
>> Like kids are so absorbent to this stuff
that it's kind of almost there anyway.
And then you grow up and you get to have
this reinforcement, but you've already
got the predisposition. There's already
a genetic predisposition for attachment
style, right?
>> And then that's got reinforced preverbal
>> with the extended pregnancy thing of you
naugh to three, naugh to four years old
or whatever. And then you come online at
some point as like a conscious being and
then you're seeing envir proper
environmental. Well, that's how mom and
dad relate to each other. That's what an
argument is.
>> That's what that's what um a slow Sunday
looks like. That's what happens when we
get stuck in traffic. Mhm.
>> That's what happens when somebody messes
up. That's how long it takes to come
back together after someone's become
disregulated.
All of these things. And it feels like a
real double, triple, quadruple whammy.
>> Yeah.
>> Of
you had this predisposition genetically.
It was reinforced
preverbally directly to you and then you
got to see it between your parents uh uh
environmentally, culturally reinforced
too. It's it is really no surprise that
sort of people become who they are in
those words.
>> I would love to see how long it would
take too to
>> to see if there's any change in that
predisposition. like how many uh
generations would it take to
>> how much therapy [laughter] does it take
to unwind this?
>> Yes, exactly.
>> Um and obviously, you know, genetics
load the gun environment pulls the
trigger. But at the core of all of that,
the first question that we have is am I
safe?
>> Am I safe? Do I belong?
>> Does any or is anyone paying attention
to me? Because if they are and I'm safe
then I can look at all these other
things you know how I relate to other
people and how you know do I get to have
creative freedom to be my own individual
person do you know what do I want to do
you those questions come second to am I
safe and the question that comes right
after that is then do I belong do people
love me enough to pay attention if we
don't get those needs satisfied if we
don't
>> and sometimes it happens later than it
should a lot of the times it happens
later than it
Um, it's really difficult to try and
figure out how to have a super healthy,
secure relationship on top of that. How
to chase your dreams and be super
ambitious and still have a good balance
and feel good about yourself. And that's
really difficult if your fundamental
needs of do I belong enough me at my
core, do I belong enough for people to
care and want me around? like am I am I
phys physically and psychologically
emotionally safe
>> that's going to follow you around like a
ghost
>> if you don't figure out
>> if you don't figure out the answer to
that question you like do you feel safe
yes or no but even more so than the
defense mechanisms or coping mechanisms
that you have um to try and meet that
need because we all have them. So, if
we're talking about self-actualization,
which we kind of are in that whole
thing, you have to start at the bottom,
which is safety and belonging.
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How does somebody build safety as an
adult?
>> I think it's I would start with the
question of who do you have to be?
to be loved. That's a pretty good place
to start because ideally the answer is
well myself. And it feels it feels quite
easy to say that. You're like, well,
there's just, you know, I'm me and my
mom loves me because of this. My best
friends love me because I'm just myself.
You I don't I don't feel like I have to
be all that much. Versus if that
question causes you to really tense and
you're thinking, "Oh my god, well, I
have to be the guy with this job title
because status. I have to be the guy
with this much money because power and
importance. I have to be the guy that
never shows his emotions and supposed to
be strong and sturdy and everyone
realizes. It's like
>> that there's a problem there.
>> There's a problem there because you
belong just for existing. I think it's
Bnee Brown that says the opposite of
belonging is fitting in.
>> Maybe.
>> Mhm. Mhm.
>> So to that the opposite of belonging,
the opposite of safety is fitting in
because you have to be someone that you
fundamentally aren't.
>> Performance.
>> Performing. Yeah. So I would start with
that question.
>> Yeah. It's an interesting one. I I feel
like the sort of hypervigilance that a
lot of people are dealing with at the
moment. This need to
it is about uncertainty. I think anxiety
is is almost exclusively about
uncertainty that if I can imagine every
different potential path that the future
might take
and imagine it, if it happens, I'll be
ready. Yep.
>> I'll be ready. I'll be ready to take on
whatever catastrophe because I've
imagined catastrophes that the physics
of reality couldn't even deliver to me.
My grandma's come back from the dead and
she's [laughter] she's shouting at me
because I did that thing wrong. And
[gasps]
>> if I can imagine all of the different
ways that the future might unfold,
especially in horrible ways, I don't
need to deal with the uncertainty of not
knowing. I've collapsed down the
uncertainty of the world into a albeit
tragic but certain nightmare.
>> Well, and run that through. Grandma
comes back. Grandma's here yelling at
you.
>> Why is that bad?
>> Because I don't belong. Because I'm
wrong.
>> Well, she would probably say something
that would hurt your feelings.
>> Yeah.
>> So, you're essentially running away from
a bad feeling
>> by imagining a worse one. spend days and
weeks and months and years trying to
avoid a bad feeling.
A bad feeling like you're letting
emotions a feeling run your life and not
just run your life but exhaust you in
the process. When if you I mean I'll go
extreme here when when my mom died
and I was in my early 20s. I was
relatively young. I had younger siblings
too. So there was a lot in that. But I
remember when my mom died, it's like,
well, you [sighs]
you have a lot of options here,
Quinnland. You can throw your hands up
and, you know, stay in a ball on the
living room floor for the next 3 to 5
years and pick your head up then and see
what's going on. Um or you can, you
know, pull yourself up by your
bootstraps lovingly and just venture out
little by little with the grief, with
the sadness, with all of the stuff, you
know, on my shoulders. Just like venture
out little by little every day. And the
other the first option really included
like, okay, but what happens if I start
crying in public? What happens if I get
a call that my brother's having a
breakdown? What happens if you x Y or Z?
What happens if I'm in school and I
can't remember? I was in college at the
time. What happens if I'm in school and
I can't remember anything on the exam
that I was just studying for? Right. All
of these things were essentially what
happens if I get sad.
>> Mhm. Mhm.
>> What happens if I have to deal with an
emotion that I don't want to deal with?
And there's no way to control that other
than to prep yourself, support yourself,
>> building the capacity to feel these
feelings. And then you aren't so
concerned about what the world's going
to throw at you because you know that
these big uncomfortable feelings, though
uncomfortable, you can manage them. You
can feel them and it won't kill you.
>> How do you think people know when
they're choosing a partner versus
choosing a wound?
Like you have this
old
ancient script that's running inside of
you. These patterns are laid down. This
is what love is. This is how people
relate. and then someone comes along.
The difference between chemistry and
chaos
>> are usually kind of hard to discern.
>> I think the question there I would
tailor it a little bit to do you like
the way the relationship feels?
>> Yeah.
>> Because we can if it's really all
conditioning, right? If the wound is
essentially bad conditioning, meaning it
brings out a destructive relationship
versus positive conditioning, if you
will, positive associations with love,
bring you a happy, healthy, stable,
loving,
>> of course, relationship.
>> It could be my patterns from my past
make me only choose people who respect
me and are there for me and show up for
me and make me feel like more of myself.
[laughter] I should get rid of those.
No, no, no, no, no. Keep those ones. You
need those ones.
>> So, I think the real question is how do
you know if you're choosing from from a
wounded place? It's well, do you like
the way the relationship feels?
>> And if not, there's probably something
in your conditioning
that has taught you to associate this
subpar behavior
>> with love. And
>> bit interesting. That's it's a great
it's a great answer. But how many people
are surprised by well
yeah my relationship probably should
make me feel good all the time most of
the time.
[laughter]
>> Revolutionary.
>> Show me where.
>> You know what I mean? Show me.
>> Yeah. Like that that that is Well, no.
Cuz cuz you know it's life's hard and
life's supposed to be hard and sometimes
think Yeah. Okay. But up to a point.
>> Yes. And life is hard in a lot of other
areas. I don't think that your
relationship is supposed to be one of
them.
>> I agree.
>> I came across this line. Um,
if you're working this hard to make it
work, it isn't working.
>> Mhm. You had a conversation with
someone,
I can't remember who, hopefully you do.
Um, basically saying if all of the late
night journaling sessions and all of
these tough difficult conversation, like
if it's really not quite moving the
needle, you probably need to leave.
>> Yeah. Well, that's I think a pattern
that a lot of people that are big into
personal growth and working hard on
themselves feel, which is
I've been rewarded throughout my entire
life.
If I work harder, things get better.
>> Yeah.
>> Which means that if this isn't working,
I just need to work harder. It's a
challenge.
>> And guess what?
>> To the people that listen to modern
wisdom, challenges are their [ __ ]
thing. [laughter]
>> Yeah. Is whatever.
>> They're the sort of people that eat
challenges for breakfast.
>> Unfortunately, they are applying a noble
mindset to the wrong environment.
>> Well, then you're looking at I mean,
think about like the hydonic treadmill.
where things get great and you get the
promotion or you get the great new
girlfriend and you love her somewhere,
you get the great new boyfriend,
whatever, whatever, you're naturally
going to come back down
>> to baseline and the novelty wears off.
>> So, I I I agree with everything you just
said with the caveat that you shouldn't
be looking to your relationship for
something that your relationship isn't
supposed to supply all the time.
>> Peace most of the time. Absolutely.
love, support most of the time,
absolutely. But novelty, excitement,
um, dread, disappointment, I mean,
right, both sides of the spectrum here
is what I'm trying to
>> activation.
>> Yeah, that's that's not where your
relationship is supposed to bring you. I
I I just think nowadays we aren't
comfortable with just being
really really really not good at just
being like feeling content is something
I don't hear anyone speak on much these
days as in people our age just in
conversation like I'm I'm content.
>> It's usually oh I'm awful or oh I'm so
fantastic.
>> Yeah. Or I'm grinding I'm driving very
hard. It's it's unbelievably radical to
say that you're satisfied.
>> Yeah.
>> Right. Because it sounds like leaving a
lot on the table if we live and I'm you
know big fan big beneficiary of
capitalism. I think it's what's that
what's that line? Capitalism is the
worst system apart from all of the
others. Um [laughter]
and uh but the problem is if you got
meritocracy people from what when do
people go to preschool? Like four years
old or something. There's already this
beginning of a ranking that's going on.
There's assessments. When's the first
homework that you get as a kid? Maybe 6
years old, 7 years old, something like
that. You should take this home and
bring it back with macaroni drawings or
whatever.
>> Your name spelled out.
>> Yeah, exactly. Um
like that is already beginning to create
a if you work hard then you will get
rewarded. If you work hard then you will
get rewarded and that just continues to
spin up.
>> Problem is that creates a situation
where you kind of look lazy. M
>> or like you don't have big dreams for
yourself or a lack of selfrespect or
you're not maximizing your time on this
planet. If you just say,
[gasps and sighs]
"I'm good. I really I just like I like
what I'm doing. I like what I'm doing. I
don't have any desire to 10x it. I don't
have any desire to recruit other people
to do what I'm doing and coach them to
do it better than me." Now, I was in
[clears throat] Bali on this live tour
thing and it was so much fun. I had done
the last show and I caught up with a
friend. The friend was out there uh
doing nutrition coaching
>> and they'd started this business and and
had previously worked in London and then
moved out there and said, "I'm just
having the best time working with uh
women who want to optimize their
hormones and stuff and skin health and
lose weight and do this." And I said,
"How are you working with them? How do
you work with your clients?" She said,
"Uh, oh, I I I work one-on-one over
WhatsApp." And I was like, that's
stupid. What you should do is you should
have a lead magnet on the front end
that's going to capture all of your
emails. And then you need a squeeze page
that gets them in on you need a low end.
Yeah, exactly. And then you're going to
spin them up. You're going to have the
the low end. And that's just to get
their credit card information really.
And then after that, you've got your mid
ticket and that's really where the big
bulk of people go. But you want your
high ticket people working with you
one-on-one. You can't just give that
away. You shouldn't that shouldn't be
your base level. That needs to be that
needs to be the people at the very very
top. Now, obviously, you're going to
need a sales team because you can't sell
anything on the internet over about
$2,000 without having a sales call first
and you don't want to be doing all the
sales calls. So, you're going to have to
require a sales team to come in and you
know, it is going to become a little bit
more complex because you might need a
sales manager manage the sales team.
Then, it's going to look a lot like a
sales business, but I promise you I like
stopped myself partway through. I'm
like, I'm gonna curse this person
>> with the exact
challenge that so many of my friends are
now trying to extricate themselves from.
>> I've overco complicated my business. I
wanted more, more, more. I've stopped
doing the thing that I wanted to be able
to do in the past. I'm not I'm no longer
coaching women on how to improve their
health.
>> I'm now managing a [ __ ] sales team
who sell people on how to
Have you heard the Mexican fisherman
story? I was going to
>> Yeah, I I basically did the the Balines
nutrition coach was the [laughter]
equivalent of the Mexican fisherman
story.
>> I they had out there living life
balanced sometimes working
>> literally saying I'm the happiest I've
ever been. And it's
>> after the sentence of I'm happiest that
I've ever been. Like let me tell you how
you can become miserable but richer
>> and here are the val well and you're
okay. Now imagine you take that into a
romantic relationship
>> and you're looking at someone who
doesn't value ambition or [snorts]
100xing their income or um even
productivity like efficiency doesn't
really matter to them.
>> Y
>> is that inherently bad?
>> No. It's just not you and or me. I I
fall in that category more than I'd like
to admit. But the reality is we're more
than likely to look at that person and
try to change them, try to project onto
them what we value rather than looking
at them as what they are, which is a
whole other person.
>> That's an interesting pattern um to a
degree. I certainly think at least my
friends as we all hit our 30s, we
increasingly valued
uh people around us, friends and
partners that encourage us to slow down
as opposed to speed up.
>> Yeah.
>> And um that's a kind of difficult
realization. I think a lot of guys
especially, but probably highowered
women too will realize this toward the
end of their 20ies. They go, I actually
don't want to be around that many more
me. Yes,
>> I'm me enough for me.
>> I actually could do with someone who
encourages me to take my foot off the
accelerator. Maybe not press the brake,
but it's like, "Hey man, let's just
coast for a bit. We can just go and hang
out."
>> And um yeah, it's a strange like a
strange realization.
>> Well, you have to be humble enough to
take a look at the mirror in that
moment. You have to be humble enough to
think, "Oh, I think I'm so big and bad.
I'm so important
>> that the way that I do it is the best
way is the best way. Like who the hell
do I sit down, Quinnland? Like
absolutely not. You're and and you're
and a lot of people would look at that
and think, well, they're just not meant
for me. They're just not I'm going to
throw away a perfectly fine relationship
because I'm so caught up in myself and
my own values that I'm judging someone
else based on something that is a me
problem. I think we end a lot of good
relationships,
potentially great relationships for that
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Do you think avoidant people seem
disproportionately attractive in the
dating market?
People who have a strong sense of self
are attractive period. A pearl talks a
lot about this where typically we find
our partners most attractive when
they're in their element, when they're
self-sufficient, when there's a level of
mastery or agency at play. We find
people most attractive when they are
doing their own thing. Avoidant people
just tend to have that on the surface
more readily available to be seen and
admired. They have their lives, their
jobs, maybe some friends, they hobbies.
There's more going on. They're not so
obsessed with the validation of everyone
else around them, right? Avoidant people
just tend to show their more avoidant
tendencies
kind of right off the bat because you
can sense it.
>> So, on the surface, yes. I think the
answer to your question is yes.
avoidance just seem to have more of that
um independent sense of self, firm sense
of self right off the bat.
>> That's very interesting. I wonder how
much as well the intermittent reward of
we're on, things are good and then hang
on, where the [ __ ] did you go and we're
on again and things are good and then
you sort of ran away again.
>> I wonder how much that combined with
they're so impressive. They just seem to
have, especially if you have the classic
sort of anxious and avoidant
relationship coming together, one who
maybe is a little bit less self-
assured, one who does need a little bit
more reassurance from the other person,
and someone else who
seems to have it altogether and can then
provide the amount of stimulation and
reward that you do want and then
withdraw it.
>> I think it depends on what you value
>> and a lot of that
often comes with age. I won't say
always, but you get to a certain point
where that roller coaster is
unattractive. You get through those
first uh inconsistent exchanges. You
haven't texted back in days or canceled
plans again. And you part of you just
says, "I don't no thanks. Not
interested. Been here 17 times. I'm not
interested in an 18th round." Like, "No,
thank you. I value communication,
transparency. I don't need you available
to me all the time, but you absolutely
need to let me know rather than
canceling last minute or like your
standards are just clearer. When you
know what you value in a relationship,
it becomes a hell of a lot easier to
say, "Does this feel the way that I want
love to feel? And if not, I'm good. I
don't need to understand why. I don't
need to know why you're avoidant." You
know what what what was it your what was
it your mom the late night journaling
sessions?
>> Yes.
Um, it just doesn't help at the end of
the day if the relationship isn't for
the most part feeling the way that you
want it to feel. That's the important
distinction.
>> Such a basic rubric.
>> Crazy mind,
>> right? Of all of the different bits of
relationship advice.
>> Yeah.
>> Do you feel good in this relationship?
And is it making you feel the way that
you wanted to feel?
>> Yeah. And that's a good thing to ask if
you're already in a relationship, too.
If you have a conversation with the
person you're with, like, hey, is this
feeling the way you want it to feel?
Pulse check. What's up? Do is there
anything that I can do? Is there better
ways that I can love you? I mean, again,
it's kind of a kind of a cliche at this
point, but do you know how the person
you're with wants to be loved, or are
you coming in so big and bold and
selfobsessed that you're only giving
what you want to receive?
>> Looking outside of yourself.
>> It's an interesting one around
disappointment. You know, it's it's very
easy
to
show up well when things are going well,
>> but to sit in I've been disappointed and
I now need to try and be my best self to
even if this person doesn't deserve it.
Like they messed up.
>> Yes.
>> This person messed up. They don't
deserve me to be good
>> now. Like I'm allowed to stamp my feet
and be petulant.
>> Yes.
So there's this line from Visakan
Verasami that he calls the divorce
paradox. He says, "Why is it that so
many people seem to divorce their
supposed best friend?" And it's that the
way people handle bad times is a much
better indicator of how long the
relationship will last than how they
handle good times.
>> And the fact being that if you're able
to go through a hard time and come out
the other side, okay, safety.
>> Mhm.
That is that that that is so much more
predictive than we just didn't have
enough peak experiences.
>> You [laughter] know, we didn't go to Six
Flags enough.
>> We didn't go to Six Flags enough. He
wouldn't ride the fast roller coaster
with me or whatever it is. It is all
about
>> how do you and your partner get on.
Obviously, there's other things, but I
think way more separations occur because
people couldn't deal with bad times, not
because they didn't have enough of the
elated ones.
>> Well, I think it's I would I'd venture
to guess it's indicative of a bigger
issue. Like the not handling bad times
is actually a symptom of a bigger issue.
Not handling bad times well.
>> Where
just take consideration
consider like general consideration for
someone else's well-being. If you don't
naturally have that, if you aren't
actively working on that, if you aren't
aware that that's important in this
relationship,
you're definitely not going to show up
with that in bad times. And that would
make the good times 100 times better.
>> You see, you see what I mean? where if
you're if you're pretty self-centered,
if you're not all that introspective or
self-aware, if you're not trying to
become more emotionally mature, which I
think most of us can almost always you
progress in in that area, of course,
when bad times come around, your
capacity shot. You're kind of like
running on E, and what's left is
none of the good stuff. none of the
stuff that keeps you together that
values connection, nothing that's going
to feed this love.
>> But I think if you have it tenfold, if
you have all of the love and
consideration, all those things um that
when you get down to running on E,
there's still a little bit of that left.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It makes total sense.
Do you think empathy can become
dangerous then in that regard?
It it overrides self-respect and
boundaries.
Too much understanding can be a bad
thing. Yeah, absolutely. It could.
Empathy without boundaries is
self-abandonment.
And on the back end of empathy that
lacks boundaries
is some sense of um
lack like [snorts] okay if I just
empathize enough if I can understand why
this person is treating me so badly then
I'll be able to rationalize it and I can
keep them around a little bit longer
because I still need to be chosen. So
the idea of being lonely and not having
anyone there, we we can't that's
last last thing we ever want to
encounter. So let me just try to
empathize enough to be okay with the
behavior that I don't like because it's
meeting a need. M
>> so rather than having a pretty firm
sense of self that says I'd rather be
alone than be treated like [ __ ] I'm
going to say no, I'd rather be anything
but alone, so I'll be okay with being
treated like [ __ ]
>> It's so interesting that you're saying
empathy is rationalization to help us
keep going.
>> Yeah.
>> Uh it's actually empathy becomes very
selfish in that way.
>> Abs. Uh it's both self-abandonment and
selfish at the same time, but it's not
really about the other person.
>> Well, self-abandonment is almost always
self- serving.
>> It's always the abandonment of self to
meet some deeper need.
>> Let's say more.
>> So, if you're uh people pleasing, right?
Similar to what we're talking about with
empathy. Well, I'm just going to make
nice so everyone around me will be good
and appeased because I need people
around. I need to be accepted. I need to
belong, right? Right? So, I'm going to
abandon so that I can get this
fundamental need met. Where the self is
really more um your self-respect like
your self-concept, the the you that is
uh maturing and has a firm sense of this
is who I am. This is what I like about
myself. This is what I um this is how I
allow people to treat me, etc. But
self-abandonment always comes with some
kind of benefit. We don't just do it for
fun. it meets some deeper psychological
need that isn't being met overtly.
>> So interesting to think about that that
>> empathizing aggressively allows you to
understand the other person's situation
>> which just extends that fuel. It just
pours a little bit more fuel back into
the tank. G can keep on puttering along
a little bit more. And then uh something
else I Oh, but their childhood.
>> Exactly. You know, but their their
relationship to their stepfather
>> and what about it? And what about it is
always what you follow it up with. What?
And what about it? We're all the way
that we are because of something.
>> No, you to just fall out of the sky like
that. We There's a reason. There's a why
for everything.
>> It doesn't mean that it's reason to
tolerate behavior that's disrespectful
or harmful.
>> Ultimately, it gets to is this making
you feel the way that you want it to.
>> Yeah.
>> Regardless of the reason for it or
against it. Mhm.
>> Yeah. This this is very British thing
actually. I think uh the uh the um
nobility
in putting your desires to one side. Uh
sort of I mustn't rock the boat. Mustn't
make a fuss.
>> Don't want to make a fuss too much. Um I
certainly, you know, I saw in my last
life as a club promoter like a gillion
different relationships make up and
break up in the space of no time at all.
And a lot of the time neither side felt
like they were allowed to say what they
wanted. And I think that that was it's a
a kind of boundary setting. Hey, this is
how I would like to be treated or this
is the thing that I want. And they were
young, but it's still interesting to see
kind of the uh pur potent stem cell like
the the little proto, [laughter]
you know, the proto relationships that
happen when you're sort of 18 to 25.
Yes. Uh it was really interesting to see
those cuz I think that is you
without all of the learnings and the
insight and the things that come with
age. So it's really
>> it's dating at its most raw in some ways
because all you are are your childhood
patterns.
>> It's attachment. Yeah.
>> At its most 100%.
>> It was really fascinating to see.
>> I can't I'm sure alcohol really helped
with that too. [laughter]
>> Helped is a uh a complex word. helped as
a viewer.
>> Yeah, it well. Yeah, I'm sure it did.
Um,
>> what do you wish more people knew about
how boundaries worked? I think that this
is I I am aware that a lot of the time
pathization of therapy speak language,
but also a really important thing that
you're supposed to do inside of a
relationship. So, what do more people
need to know about boundaries?
>> Boundaries are rules for yourself.
For yourself. They are rules that I will
abide by because I know what I want for
myself, for my life, from the
relationships that I will have in my
life. It's a rule for myself. And
people tend to think that it has to come
with a a means of control, controlling
the other people around them, getting
what they want out of life. It doesn't.
It's I will do this or I won't do this.
This is what I want in life. Are you in
or are you out kind of a thing? If if
you're specifically in romantic
relationships, um there's a creator that
I was I can't remember who it is, I'm
sorry. Uh I was watching a video and
basically this couple that's married um
the guy was saying that he didn't want
to marry a woman who was going to bars.
>> Wasn't what he wanted. You know, bars
are typically for single people. Now,
whether you agree with that or not,
>> it's a boundary of his. Y
>> and he didn't even ask her to stop going
to the bars. and asked her to leave. He
just said, "I don't want to, you know,
I'm looking for a wife and the wife that
I have isn't going to be going to bars
by herself, you know, for whatever
reason." It was his boundary. She said,
"Cool. I'm good with that. Don't need
it. I'm also looking for the same thing,
the same level of respect. So, no more
bars for me. That's his boundary." And
she had the option to say, "Cool. I'm
in." Or, "No, sorry, I'm not." Y
>> that's an example of a real boundary.
Not, hey, you better leave because I
told you that I wasn't cool with this
and so if you go to the bar, I'm not
going to talk to you and you're going to
No,
>> it was his rule. She got to opt in or
opt out. That's a boundary.
>> Interesting how many disputes that we've
seen, you know, some text leak of a
couple, famous couple or whatever, and
one person is saying one thing, this is
what I like or this is what I don't
like. Yeah, the uh delivery of it.
>> There's an awful lot to be said about
that, but ultimately,
>> how many debates have been had online
on on podcasts about should you be okay
with your partner going to the bar or
whatever? You go that that is a
completely personal choice for you
>> with your partner and it is a completely
personal choice for them too. It is
absolutely fine for you to want whatever
you want.
>> Yes. up to a limit [laughter] to must
put a caveat in. Um,
>> check the laws.
>> Exactly.
>> For the most part, it's completely fine
with you for you to want whatever you
want. You want to go to bed at 9:00
p.m., you that's fine. You want somebody
that is quiet in the morning, it's fine.
You want somebody that's vegan, that's
fine. You want somebody that's
conservative, that's fine.
>> You just need to ensure that you make
that plane and the other person is
allowed to opt in or opt out. It feels
really
almost all of the relationship problems
that I see that happen on the internet
are just two people who aren't
compatible for each other shouting about
the fact that they're trying to make it
work. They're trying to like hammer this
square peg into a round hole.
>> Mhm.
>> And then everybody else gets to sit on
the sidelines and say, "I'm more like
them or I'm more like the other one."
>> Yes.
>> Just both of you should [ __ ] off and
find someone that's like you.
>> Leave each other alone of this. leave
and find someone that wants to go to bed
at 9:00 p.m. or has never voted Democrat
or that doesn't want to eat meat.
>> Well, the politics
is something that I actually disagree
with. A lot of people say you can't be
with someone who has a differing
political ab political view than you.
And I I disagree in most cases if we
understand the why and the values
behind. Okay. So, we can take any of
these situations um as an example. We
can use the bar. or we can use the time
you want to go to bed. We can use
politics. Do you know why those things
are important to you? Why is it
important? What's the value behind not
going to a bar if you're in a
relationship without your spouse? What
what's the value behind going to sleep
at 9:00 versus 2:00 in the morning? What
is the value behind having liberal views
or having conservative views? What are
the values?
And from there it becomes a real
conversation rather than this fight of
who's right and who's wrong and I can't
believe that you would want to kill
these people and you don't care about
these rights and it's like well at the
end of the day we don't even know what
we're fighting about because I haven't
asked you why that's important to you.
>> Why are your views on this that and the
other? What does that mean to you?
>> I'm actually curious about what that is.
And do those things align? You can have
similar values and Oh god, I should put
on the thing. You can you [laughter] can
you can have similar values at the heart
of it and it can look quite different as
far as who you're voting for and what
you believe.
>> I told myself I would never speak on
politics.
>> Jared, you ever considered that you
might have a drinking problem?
>> I don't consider a lot, Chris.
>> Well, you drank an entire case of
Athletic Brewing Co last night.
>> But they're non-alcoholic.
>> And that's not a problem.
>> Sorry, man. I I just kept chugging. for
the regret to creep in. Never happened.
>> See, most people like Jared don't want
to change what they drink. They just
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[laughter]
>> What do you make of the differences
between the sexes right now? like are
men and women just becoming less
culturally compatible?
>> I think we're all becoming more
egocentric. It's almost like
arrested development.
Uh children by nature are egocentric
because there's no way that their little
brains can conceptualize anything beyond
just them and their need to survive
fundamentally, right? And so then
ideally you grow up and you can
ascertain the stability of the world and
whatever you go on to form an identity
and a sense of self. If you get stuck at
a more egocentric age or in a more
egocentric phase, everything is about
you. Everything is a reflection of you.
Your needs are the most important thing.
people who have different um opinions or
values or feelings all the things wrong
because it is me and I am I and the
center of the world. I'm being
hyperbolic but I think that we have a
really difficult time both men and women
really looking outside of ourselves
without losing ourselves. Are you
familiar with the term differentiation?
>> No.
>> Are you familiar with the term inshment?
kind of. Yes.
>> Okay. So, they're kind they're chips off
of the same block. So, differentiation
is essentially I can stay connected to
me while also being connected to you.
So, we are not one. And this goes for
platonic relationships, uh, familial
relationships or all the things, but I
can hold my sense of self while still
being connected to someone who's
different than me.
>> Give me an example of the opposite of
that.
>> Inshment.
>> Okay.
>> Codependency.
>> Right.
>> Right. Your feelings are my feelings.
So, if you're not okay, I'm not okay.
and I have to fix it for both of us.
>> That sense of we are just one unit.
>> I think that being able to hold on to
who we are, what we want, what we value,
and still being able to relate to people
that have that feel differently, that
see the world differently, that have
their own sense of self. I'm not sure
that we have much practice in that, let
alone solid examples
>> of what that really looks like. And
that's contributing to men and women
struggling a little bit in the modern
world because of cultural differences
because they're stuck in this childhood
ego phase. I think it's that sound that
sounds bad, but yeah, I think it is a
it's a socialization issue where we
aren't really taught how to relate in a
way that says, "Tell me who you are and
I'll tell you who I am." And we can
still have a relationship even if all of
these characteristics don't align. Wow.
As if your self is a threat to myself.
>> Yes.
>> Now, that's interesting. And that's
certainly something I think that we see
on the internet a lot. That
>> somebody stating a view, a a girl
stating a view about what she thinks to
do with child rearing is seen
>> by not only men but especially women as
a threat if they don't agree with that
particular view. Yeah,
>> everything becomes tribal. But yeah, I
didn't realize that we're basically sort
of enshel
because of our lack of a strong sense of
who we are, we see somebody else's sense
of themselves as a threat to ours.
>> Well, and you're also looking I [sighs]
mean to differentiate requires a certain
amount of safety, whether that be safety
within yourself or safety within the
people that are closest to you, right?
Like you know who you are. you trust the
people closest to you to reflect that
back and then you get to go venture out
into the world and meet people that want
to argue with the opposite points or,
you know, have differing views.
Part of [snorts]
the the greater problem at large, I
think, is that we're using shame,
judgment, and criticism to try and
change the other party.
>> I hear a lot of hate towards men. I hear
a lot of hate towards women. I hear a
lot of hate of, well, it's their fault
that we're like this and their fault
that we're like this. And it's like,
these are conversations that we need to
have, but we're having them with the the
entirely wrong attitude. An entirely
wrong attitude.
>> No one wants to change because they're
shamed enough. Sustainable change, real
conversation, real
understanding doesn't come from spewing
vitrial at other people. It doesn't come
from hatred. So, I think that that that
general um atmosphere
>> is already adding fuel to a fire that's
raging.
>> What are the most common
misunderstandings that you think modern
men and women have about each other? If
you were able to pull a chip out of one
sex and give it to the other.
>> This is a really good question.
I think I would want women to understand
the power and influence and importance
that they play in men's lives. I think
that gets lost in conversation. you
know, a good loving woman is quite
powerful in a man's life if he also
loves and and respects her like and I
think that that gets lost especially in
today's conversation of like um
submission and being a docile good woman
and it's like we just put the rules
aside. You're important. You make a
really big difference in in this man's
life and I think that that should be
reiterated. I also think that if if
women know that they're appreciated and
that they're valuable and just their
their presence and their love and their
attention goes a long way, that's how we
get things to to change. When you feel
valued, when you feel appreciated, it's
like, "Oh, that's great. I want to give
more." Yeah.
>> So, that needs to be um communicated.
And I think that
>> I would want men to know. So, if I was
implanting this,
>> I think I would want men to know
I would want men to know that there's
far more value in who you are beyond
just what you can offer on a piece of
paper, beyond just the things that you
can write down. I see that a lot in in
clients that I work with who are dating
and clients that I work with who are
married. It's it's still a lot of these
norms of you're only really worth
anything if you can if you're of a
certain size stature, if you make a
certain amount of money, if you have
certain status, power, you know,
whatever the the things that you can
write on a resume
>> basically.
And
just the value
in showing up and being present and
being loving and being available as a
man is also important and necessary to
women.
>> So basically less bravado if I make a
long story short.
>> Yeah. [laughter] Do you think emotional
men often get overlooked?
>> [sighs and gasps]
>> I think it's starting to change, but I
do think that
there is a bit of socializing um
socialization that has taught us that
men aren't supposed to cry. Men aren't
supposed to have more feeling. They're
definitely not more feelings than the
women in their lives. That's like
that'll that'll scare you away. Like,
oh, can't do that. And I don't think
that's true. And I think that that
conditioning I know that's not true. And
I think that the conditioning around
that is starting to fall away.
>> I think that we're having more
conversations
about it where taking a real honest look
at what we were socialized to believe
and that it doesn't really make sense.
Right? If women are complaining about
all of these emotionally unavailable men
and I can't get the man to have a
conversation with me and like he doesn't
care about my like if you want an
emotionally available guy, that's going
to mean that his emotions have to come
to the table. So, you know, what do you
want?
>> I want you to be able to sit in
emotions, but only if they're mine,
>> right?
>> I don't want you to have your own.
>> I I see that mostly in in the work that
I do. It's like giving men the
vocabulary and the language to express
what it is that they're feeling and like
the space to actually communicate that.
And then I often see
a lot of the work with women is the
practice of allowing the men's emotions
to take up space and not just theirs.
>> What are the problems that women
encounter when
giving enough space giving space to
men's emotions? I think there's there's
a fear
that if their emotions aren't being
recognized. If we're making space for
his feelings, his emotions to come into
play, then mine are just going to be
overlooked.
>> Then mine get put on the back burner and
then I'm just appeasing him and then
what am I even here for? I'm just here
to validate him and he doesn't do
anything. It's like, okay, well,
nothing's going to get done with that
attitude. Nothing. The real question is
can you build the the capacity and the
practice of having your feelings and
tableabling them for a second while we
also talk about his
>> right is
women tend to feel and express boldly
largely
loudly in a lot of ways which I'm not
against at all I'm very passionate I'm
quite loud myself but it has to come
with an understanding that if you want
to be in this relationship with another
human who has feelings things. Sometimes
we have to give it a beat. Emotions are
not emergencies. Just because you feel a
certain way doesn't mean that you have
to act on it now. And it doesn't mean
that we can't give attention to the
other person who's in this dynamic.
>> Does that make sense?
>> No, it does. It does. I I've been
thinking for a while. I wonder whether
I wonder whether standards have risen or
expectations have become unrealistic.
>> [snorts]
[sighs]
[gasps]
>> Both. Am I allowed to say both? I think
it's both.
>> Yep.
>> I think that
far more people are actually marrying
for love. I think that again as Sarah
Pel talks a lot about this, but we're
expecting one relationship to fill the
needs that an entire village would have
before. and we're on social media that
is filled with every single highlight
real magical moment that's all been
produced and very meticulously crafted
by the way. Um and then comparing that
to our, you know, normal Tuesday nights,
it's like, well, you must not love me
cuz you didn't send me $7,000 worth of
flowers on Valentine's Day. And you I
can't be with her because to be honest,
I mean, she's not a double D and she's
like put on like 10 pounds and like
she's kind of the [ __ ] sometimes. It's
like, can we just where's the humanness
>> in all of this? I think we've lost we've
lost the plot when it comes to
expectations and we need to make room
for the higher standards that we have
while also accounting for people's
humanity,
for the
connection that occurs just between two
people who have a little bit of
chemistry, similar visions of the
future, and decide to build lives
together. M
>> so I I think it's both.
>> Yeah, I see it in common threads all the
time about problems with coupling and I
would say on average it's more um
our standards have risen from women
>> and more the expectations are
unrealistic from men.
>> Uh that at least from where I see it in
comments sections, I would love someone
to do some data on this. Um,
regardless of who is saying what, um,
it's not it's not particularly helpful
to say either of those things at the
other side.
>> Like, you need to be better,
>> women or men? You go, well, do you not
[ __ ] think that they're trying? Who's
actively trying to not be better,
>> right? Who is actively trying to not be
better? When was the last time that
somebody was like
cajjolled like beaten over the head into
change on mass as a group?
>> It doesn't work.
>> No,
>> it doesn't work.
>> No. No. People think that they can
change other people, but they can't.
People think that they can't change
themselves, but they can.
>> It's one of my biggest pet peeves, this
idea, and it's kind of come back into
trend recently, that we should be
shaming ourselves into change. Like,
bring back public shame. bring back and
it's like why don't we just bring back
like respect and you know a sense of
decency but not shame. Shame
shame doesn't create any kind of
sustainable change that anyone's going
to want. The more that you criticize
someone the more that you shame them the
more that your actions are going to be
fueled. I mean okay shame at its core is
this fundamental belief that you are
broken or bad. So everything that you do
is going to be to in some way disprove
that you are fundamentally broken or bad
if your actions are fueled by shame.
>> At some point you're going to be
exhausted and you're going to run out of
energy to do so because you can't outrun
it. You can't disprove it. There's no
way to do that. Not the actual belief of
shame. You um you're much better off
trying to say that's not a person that I
want to be and I believe in who I am.
I'm devoted to being a better person,
not because I'm fundamentally broken,
but because I know what a good person I
can be, and that's my commitment is to
be that person. Do you see how you see
how that differs? So, this idea of
shaming your way into change, uh, bring
back public shaming. It's like it
doesn't work. And I think that it
perpetuates more negativity, more
aggression, um, and honestly more
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What do you think are the most difficult
cycles for people to get out of in
relationships?
The ones that are just kind of bad.
Kind of bad. I'm I'm kind of taking a
left on your question, but this is what
came to mind first. The cycles that are
most difficult to break, I find are the
ones where the relationship is fine, not
totally destructive, but like kind of
bad because
neither person is really all that
committed to making the change in the
relationship because it's just kind of
bad. M.
>> So then over time the cracks grow and
the cracks grow and the damage continues
and it expand and you're you're
basically looking at an issue that could
have been repaired if it had only been a
little bit worse a little bit earlier
because you probably would have taken it
more seriously.
>> Mhm. Mhm.
>> Does that make sense?
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
>> That's the
>> It's a thousand tiny paper cuts.
>> Yes. Yes. Exactly. Or there's another
option that people if anyone's listening
and is kind of like, "Oh, that's me."
You can care. You can just start to
care. You just have to intentionally see
that this kind of bad thing could get
worse if you don't pay attention to it.
>> You mentioned repair then. What's the
gold standard for rupture and repair in
your opinion?
>> Well, you have to start with curiosity.
You have to make sure that you
understand why the rupture happened, how
the other person was feeling. Um, share
how you were feeling. you know, whoever
was whoever was kind of on the receiving
end of that that damage has to be able
to say, "This is why this hurt. This is
what I was feeling. This is what your
actions meant to me." And then the other
person has to take accountability. It's
really that three-step process.
Curiosity,
accountability, and then actually
changing, implementing
>> the the change.
And I think what often what becomes
difficult in this rupture repair kind of
cycle um is the fact that we often don't
change it right away. It will more than
likely happen again.
>> Yep.
>> Sooner than we'd like. And tolerating
that disappointment can feel really
difficult. So you rupture, you repair. I
won't do that again. And then you do
>> and then there same thing sensitive
issue comes back comes back and you're
like
>> hang on a second I just gave you my
trust that you were going to change this
thing you didn't change this thing it's
happened again it's never going to
change
>> I now can't ever trust any more repair
>> y disappointment
that you fall into with that it's
there's a certain tolerance for
disappointment that we all need and I
hate it's such a it's such
This sounds like such a negative phrase.
It's such a bad connotation, but there
is a certain amount of disappointment
that we have to tolerate if we're going
to be in relationship with another
imperfect human.
>> Now, the second, third, fourth time that
that issue comes around, that it was
ruptured again and it was ruptured
again, I wouldn't say that's a it's not
a sign that you're necessarily with the
wrong person. If each time it comes
around, you can stay in it with the same
curiosity, with the same genuine like,
okay, [ __ ] this is why I did, okay,
you're feeling this way. Okay, that's
similar to last time, but this time
there's a little more anger than there
is sadness. Okay, so the reason why I
screwed up this time for the fourth
time,
honestly, I just it slipped my mind. And
so, because it just slipped my mind,
this is what I'm going to do to try to
keep it more top of mind. How does that
sound to you? like you're you're going
to have to keep coming back to the same
to the same issues for at least a little
bit, if not for a long bit.
>> You've got this line, life doesn't
remove what isn't for you. It just lets
it exhaust you over and over and over
again until you choose differently.
>> Yeah.
Yeah. There's um [laughter]
I also I take issue with pretty much
anything that starts with someone who
loves you would or someone who loves you
wouldn't. I know it sounds like a kind
of a Yeah. Okay, I'll explain. But the
you lose a sense of intuition when you
take other people's black and white
assumptions
without any kind of introspection or
feeling into your own sense of right or
wrong. So someone who loves you would
>> it's like well
someone who loves you would text you
every would text you good morning every
day because they love you and that's
just how it is. It's like okay well
that's a little silly. There's plenty of
ways to love people. I want to feel into
whether or not this love feels right for
me because like that um that line is is
highlighting there's a sense of knowing
that you have a sense of knowing whether
something is really for you or really
not. So the universe doesn't remove what
isn't for you. It just lets it exhaust
you over and over and over and over and
over again. That's going to be a felt
sense of [ __ ] This is the 700th time.
that I felt this way
>> there is no right rule boundary like no
one else is going to be able to give me
the knowing that I build within myself
and that's what's going to help you get
up and make the change that you need to
change a
>> lot of this is tapping into a sense of
selfrust like hey my desires are
legitimate I'm allowed to want what I
want and I'm allowed to not like
something that doesn't make me feel good
and that I don't Like strange how much
acrobatics, Olympic level acrobatics,
people are prepared to go through in an
attempt to hide away from or justify
>> or legislate
um
I don't like that.
>> Yeah.
>> Is it okay for me to not like that? It's
okay for me to not like that thing that
I don't like.
>> Hence why you need the 10 rules of if he
loved you, he would. or if he does these
10 things, he doesn't love you. It's
like, where are we? Can we be so for
real? Does it feel like the kind of love
you want to receive? Just because he
doesn't text you good morning every
single day. Okay. Well, he takes out the
trash every time that he realizes it's
getting kind of full. You didn't ask him
to do that. Maybe you don't even live
together, but he notices it, right? He
opens your car door. You never asked him
to do that. He lays there and lets you
put his cold feet under his legs at
night in bed even though he hates it.
Like there's so many ways to receive and
give love. And I think that the real the
love that is for you is going to feel
right to you. It's not going to come in
a list that someone on the internet
gives you or that the you know the
universe will magically remove what's
not for me. It's like no no check in
here. It'll just exhaust you enough
until you can't bear it anymore.
>> Exactly.
>> Yeah. There was a a line very similar to
yours I saw that's uh um the universe
will continue to shout louder and louder
until you finally hear the lesson.
>> And um it is it is
at least as far as I've seen most of my
friends that are smart originally
eventually end up at the place
>> that that they're supposed to. Uh the
goal is to try and reduce down the dose
that you need. It's like do I have to
wait 700 times? Could I have not got
there at 350?
>> Could I have not got there at at 100?
>> Yes.
>> Um how do you come to think about and I
think it's a really nice rubric.
>> You are allowed to like the things you
like. You are allowed to not like the
things that you don't like and your
desires and the way that you feel is
legitimate. But also we know that
instinct and intuition and gut feeling
uh can cause us to act rashly. They can
cause us to um follow our impulses when
we should have actually taken a little
bit more of a step back and tried to be
a bit more aquinamous. I know you're a
fan of the mindfulness gap in between
stimulus and response.
>> Yeah.
[snorts]
>> How do you come to think about balancing
those two things? Because I think the
curse of the overthinker is somebody who
goes, "Okay, so it's important for me to
feel how I feel and how I feel is
right." Well, yeah, but there's also
impulse in there and a lot of reaction
and sometimes activation.
>> Do you understand how these two things
could be sort of on opposite sides of
the same scales?
>> I think it comes down to knowing your
values.
the this the majority of the decisions
that we make become a lot clearer when
we know what's important to us. So if um
kindness is important to you, what's the
kinder decision here? And genuine
kindness as in maybe I need to leave
this relationship because it's unkind of
me to stay in it knowing that this other
person is fully in it and I'm not like
it's unkind of me to stay. So then the
kind decision would be to leave, right?
the
when you're looking at the the values
that you hold true to you, you basically
are left with, okay, yeah, this one's
more aligned and this one's not. And if
you aren't, then it's pretty much a game
of selfrust because you're going to say,
I'm going to go left and I'm going to
make the most of whatever left is going
to bring me.
>> I trust myself to do that. I've looked
at the I I have another video where I
say
um actually it's on overthinking and
it's um basically um if things go
according to plan, great, keep it
moving. If it if they don't, great, keep
it moving. But the reality is you need
to know that you are there to pick
yourself up if or when things don't go
according to plan. So make a
well-intentioned decision, preferably
one that aligns with your values, and
then take it from there. M
>> but if you're
I think if you know that you that this
decision isn't going to genuinely harm
someone. If that that's pretty obvious,
right? If it's going to harm someone,
you probably shouldn't do it. But
most other decisions are typically going
to come down to what do I genuinely want
more of or less of in my life? and it's
going to feel really big and really
heavy and it's going to feel like this
catastrophic or potentially catastrophic
decision. It's like, well, if you really
boil it down to this one's going to
bring me more of this and this one's
going to bring you more of that, which
one do you want? And then you decide.
>> So much of it is again
selfrust. It really does come back to
that. I wonder how people are able to
operate functionally inside of a
relationship if they don't have
selfrust. Not well. Not well. I mean,
you're looking at you have to look at
you have to look
at who you are in this. I call it like
the third entity that that you're
building is the relationship. And you
have to look at your side of the street.
And that's really difficult to do
without shame spiraling. Like being able
to take a look at how you've contributed
to the circumstances of your
relationship that you dislike. Being
able to genuinely do that is necessary
to move the relationship forward in a
healthy way, but it's impossible to do
if you don't trust yourself to go there.
If you don't trust yourself, you spiral.
It's like, "Oh, I'm so bad and
everything's so awful and you're you
also can't you can't hear the other
person in the relationship without
falling into, you know, defense
mechanisms and another shame spiral and
more judgments and deflection, right? If
you if you bring something to your
girlfriend, wife, whoever, if you you're
to say, "Hey, I'm really bothered by
this. You know, I I really miss you. You
know, you've been working a lot. I've
been working a lot, and I just I want
more time with you." She could hear that
as he doesn't appreciate the work that I
do. He just wants me home. He doesn't
even understand. He only cares about his
job. Right? When in reality, you're
saying, "Hey, I miss you. Could you
could we spend more time together?" You
have to be able, she would have to be
able to really trust
>> her ability to handle her own feelings
and thus trust you in the relationship
to really hear the request there. Does
that make sense?
>> Yeah. It's It's interesting how many
people would prefer to default to a
shadow sentence of passive aggression.
Oh, going out with your friends again
tonight opposed to I miss you and I'd
really like to see you and and it would
be really great if we could spend some
time together this week. Yeah,
>> like the difference in those two senses
and one of them kind of encourages this
ever escalating game of tit for tat
>> of wow last time when you did that thing
no no as opposed to
>> I see where you are you're doing
something just exclusively out of love
pretty much and [ __ ] like I should
nurture that
>> I'm sorry that I haven't
>> and you you said that so nicely there
that was such a beautiful way.
>> It's a British accent
>> of suggesting [laughter]
>> British accent,
>> but sometimes it does come off a little
passive aggressive. And even in that
opportunity, even in that is an
opportunity to actually listen into
what's being asked of you, even though
the delivery isn't great.
>> That's no, we don't like to talk about
that. We don't like to talk about having
to be the bigger person in the
relationship. And I'm not saying that
you should be with someone who talks
down to you all the time, you know, but
we all have off days where we didn't
regulate before we came to the table and
we weren't able to say, "Hey, I really
miss you. Could we please spend some
time together?" It comes off as, "Well,
oh, about time. Haven't seen you all
week." You know, first dinner we've had
together in six days,
>> yada yada.
>> There's an opportunity there to lean in
and see, okay, what is being asked of
me?
>> What is the request here? you know, I
care about this person enough to assume
that what they want
isn't necessarily to my detriment,
right? It's not going to hurt me.
They're looking for something
that I can supply. So, if they're
looking for more love, what could the
love look like in this passive
aggressive comment?
>> That's not fun to do until you get
really good at it, then it's kind of
fun. But
>> but then after a while you you do risk
getting into the late light late late
night journaling sessions for a very
long time. Well, explain to me again why
it is that you decided to call me a
[ __ ] [ __ ] [laughter] Like just tell
me
is it because of your father like that
you did this thing? But I get it. And a
lot of this is uh learning to temper
your foot on and off the gas. But too
much of that too much of that
overthinking of well am I should I be a
little bit more understanding or have I
is this really I should take the the
fivestep Byron Katy journaling protocol
so that I can make sure that I
understand go do you feel good?
>> Yeah.
>> Do you it just comes back to do you feel
good inside of this relationship?
>> And is there okay let's play that
situation back too. Passive aggressive.
You're the bigger person. Awesome. you
found the the request.
There should also be a comment that's
like, "Hey, I really love you. Clearly,
you're really stressed. Can we work on
this?" Because like that wasn't fun to
communicate with.
>> You know, I'm really trying to stay in
it and like I care about you. So, like
what what's what can we do to make that
better?
>> Do you not just to put up with it
endlessly, but it gives the I mean,
think about that. You ever been in a
really bad mood and you bump into
someone who's in a great mood and you're
like, "Man, I just I got I need more of
that. I need more of that today, you
know, and you and then you do you shake
some of it off and you go on about your
day a little bit lighter, a little bit
more upbeat. It's similar in a
relationship only kind of a hundfold.
Like if you come to the table trying to
be more emotionally mature, more secure,
and the other person does too, you're
going to have days where that doesn't
perfectly align, but the fact that
you're both committed to it means that
you do level up.
>> Yeah. What do you think AI relationships
say about people today and their need
for connection?
I don't know. What do they say?
>> Well, I mean, there's an awful lot GPT
40 when that
>> Oh, you're saying our relationships with
AI.
>> Yeah. So, the the fact that people are
having relationships with AI, what do
you think that says as a comment about
where people's attachments are at the
moment?
I think we
search for the least amount of friction
possible
and that's an issue because humans are
imperfect, right? like we're we're all
fallible. And that's a problem when you
can log on to a chatbot who's going to
validate your every request, every
desire, going to validate your every
thought, your every feeling with zero
expectation, zero um expectation of
reciprocity anyway.
And you get to scratch that itch. That
becomes a problem when you're looking
at, you know, real life. And if you're
really looking for a husband, a wife, a
partner, someone to even just friends,
then your friends become annoying
because your friends have inconvenienced
you, unlike your chatbot does, um, that
worries me a little bit.
>> It does.
>> Do you see, uh, Whitney Wolf Hood,
Bumble CEO, talk about how people's AIs
will date other people's AIs and then
sort of pass that up to the inverse
salesunnel? I mean, I don't see I would
love to actually see what she's talking
about because that just sounds insane.
That sounds absolutely bonkers. You tell
so much about a person by the photos
that they choose on their dating app, by
the way certain prompts, by the way that
the opening line that you get when you
first message. Like, there's so much
that you read into. Well, what does that
even mean? Your AI avatars are going to
be speaking to each other. I don't think
it should be legal. Sorry, I don't. or I
I I really I think that you're crossing
into really dangerous territory when it
comes to choosing romantic partners
based on your AI avatars. It removes the
humanness from a fundamentally human
necessity.
>> Mhm.
>> That's concerning to me.
>> Well, the one area that AI sucks is most
is taste.
>> Being able to be tasteful. If you ask it
to tell you a joke, like write an
interesting joke about this, I'm yet to
hear any that even partly understands
how human psychology works.
>> Um, and that level of discernment, I
think, is
essentially non-existent. Now, that this
may just be a compute problem, right? If
you get 10 times the transformers, maybe
this will just come along for the ride.
But something tells me that yeah, it's
it's fundamentally a human a human
challenge. And also
there is something about the meat the uh
what's it called? Meet cute story like
how did you guys get together? No one
wants to say online. No one wants to say
online dating. I [ __ ] bet even fewer
people want to say oh my AI avatar and
his AI avatar. They really got on well
and we didn't think it was going to
work. But the AI avatars, they convinced
us.
>> I do. We do. We know how it's going to
work. Are you genuinely going to be
pulling up a conversation between your
avatars and be like, "Oh, that's going
well."
>> I would imagine it'll be some kind of
pre-screening. So, I imagine that you'll
do some kind of psychometric evaluation,
uh, testing convers.
And then you do the same with somebody
else. they must have some kind of data
set of compatibility of people typically
who are like this don't get on or do get
on with people who are like that and
then over time you end up filtering
these out. Now what's interesting what's
interesting is that maybe if you do get
away from swiping and apparently this is
I don't know whether this is true or not
but I heard it um sort of the swipe
economy is eating [ __ ] at the moment.
they're really struggling uh user
numbers, usage, revenue, all of this
stuff going through the floor. So, this
is a way to try and counteract that. One
thing that might be a bit of a white
pill, at least a white pill lining on
this,
if you get around some of the biases and
erroneous judgments that people have of
others, maybe the AIS will be able to
feed you partners that you would not
have seen as a potential match that may
go on to actually be a match for you
because it's gotten rid of some of the,
you know, there tends to be a a zeroing
in like a gravitational pull towards
certain people on dating apps. Now,
that's because everybody's optimizing
for the same quite small bucket of
traits that are usually available
through through dating apps. Uh,
if you have AI, maybe they're going to
be able to find people that you wouldn't
have necessarily swiped on, but you
would get into a great relationship
with. And I don't know, maybe maybe that
broadens the playing field a little bit
more. Makes it a little bit more I'm try
I'm I'm scraping the barrel here. Okay.
I'm really trying.
>> What if we I was going to say what if we
came up with shows, dating shows where
we put everyone on planes and sent them
off to go date and there's like a
hundred of those, right? Where we send
people off to go
>> Okay. Yeah, there is. I was on
[laughter]
>> Yeah. Yeah. You don't need any more of
those. You do not need any more of
those. But we do the AIs and the AIs
talk to each other and then we watch the
conversations and then we have an
infinite number of dating shows.
>> Yeah, that's part that's such a good
idea and then we don't even need to
date. We can just sit there and watch
our AI avatars date on screen for us.
>> The dystopia is just it's too ready. But
yeah, I look I I I
>> Can we just all go to coffee shops?
Singles coffee shops Thursdays from 6:00
a.m. to 9:00 a.m. Especially someone
like somewhere here in Austin.
>> You know what I like? I like this uh
lectures on tap thing. Have you seen
this? Oh, so it's kind of in New York. I
think it might be coming to Austin as
well. Uh, it's
professors and and
academics and and other people that do
interesting research giving
presentations in what looks like bars
and maybe sort of small event spaces and
uh people get to go and it's kind of
like going back to school but learn
there was one about black holes and
there's another about human evolution
and then there's another about geology
and whatever and uh
>> I love it
>> probably not great if you're trying to
listen to a lecture to have someone
going like, "Hey, hey, are you single?
>> Jesus, watch your Instagram."
>> Dude, shut the [ __ ] up. I'm learning
about I'm learning about how gravity
works. Yeah, I'm [laughter] learning
about how gravity works.
>> But you come in an hour early, two hours
early. All the singles come in at a
specific day. Like, there are just I I I
wish that we could h I wish that we
could encourage people to get outside
and actually speak to each other more.
And I know this is everyone says it and
I I don't have an answer for it. I don't
know how to solve the issue. But there's
a magic that happens just by being in
someone's presence and then your laundry
list of to of of wants and
non-negotiables and all of the things.
Maybe not the non-negotiables, but your
all of your wants is seem so
>> well. Your non-negotiables become way
more negotiable.
>> That's right. [laughter] You know,
>> if they're true non-negotiables, they'll
stay non-negotiable. But your list tends
to to dissipate quite quickly when
you're just in the presence of someone
that you enjoy.
>> I had an idea for a dating app which is
all that you're allowed to put up is a
one minute selfie video. M
>> it's just video because what you're
trying to do basically as far as I can
see most online dating is just you speed
running through this sort of weird
sterile autistic back and forth
conversation where you try not to be too
keen but also try to make the needs
known without seeming too needy to get
to the point where you can see and speak
to the other person.
>> Mhm. Problem being,
I've not experienced this, not a woman.
Reliably, I've been told that the DMs of
most women on the internet or a [ __ ]
cesspool. And if you open up a dating
app to just have video,
>> uh, I worry whether that would be a
potential.
>> Yeah, you'd need some AI on there to
filter.
>> Okay. So, people would be dressing
They'd be dressing their dick picks up
with a mustache. They'd be sort of
>> literally
>> popping this on the top and they'd be
like, "Hello. [laughter]
>> My name's Christopher. I'd love how
lovely to meet you."
>> It's like slowly getting like lower over
time. [laughter]
>> It's like, "Sorry, let me put some blood
back in." Um,
>> it's like you're speaking from
experience.
>> Yeah. No, this creative that look, I've
never done that. Ideas.
>> No, that's not that's not how it works.
>> Good.
>> Uh, cute. Let's bring this one home.
You're awesome. I love your work. I
think you're great. I love the fact that
you're trying to help people understand
themselves better. Where should everyone
go to check out what you're doing?
>> At Quinnland Walther on all the things,
all the places I'm doing a live tour.
Super excited. 12 live workshops. Um
dates to be announced, but it's in the
coming months. Got to keep that one a
little a little quiet.
>> I know. I appreciate you. Until next
time.
>> Thanks, Chris.
>> Bye. All right. See you next time,
everyone.
>> Yes. Thank you very much for tuning in.
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