Pick the choice as often as possible
that is slightly more difficult. To me,
it's the small stuff that nobody sees
that makes the biggest difference in the
world. Everybody knows the harder choice
versus the easier choice. Everybody
to include myself will look externally
and say what do I need to do? I know
what I need to do and so do they. They
need to do the thing then even if it's
microscopic that they want to do less
more often than they do the thing that
they want to do more. That over time is
the juice. Welcome to the Huberman Lab
podcast where we discuss [music] science
and science-based tools for everyday
life.
I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor
of neurobiology and opthalmology at
Stanford School of Medicine. My guest
today is Andy Stumpf, a retired Navy
Seal and subsequently a member of the
Red Bull High Performance Team where he
was a wing suitor, where they literally
get into what some people call squirrel
suits and fly. He set two world records
wing suiting. But today's discussion is
not really prompted by his career in the
military, nor his wing suiting, although
it does impact the discussion. Today's
discussion was prompted by my reading of
Andy's recent book called Drown Proof.
Now, there are a lot of books out there
by former Navy Seals, but upon reading
it, I realized that this was a special
book and that Andy's experience and the
lessons he shares and most importantly,
the tools he shares are both unique and
indeed important for everyone to hear.
For instance, he describes a tool in
there that I now use every single week,
which has allowed me and many other
people, and I'm certain you to separate
out issues of concern versus issues of
impact. meaning to allow you to actually
be able to impact perhaps not control
but certainly have an impact on certain
things while ignoring the issues in life
that distract you that pull you into
drama and that can numb you out and that
essentially waste your life. Today
you'll learn what that exercise is and
how to implement it in your life. You'll
also learn a lot of other simple tools
about how to take the slightly harder
road in certain moments versus the
easier road. You'll also learn from Andy
about the most difficult things that he
encountered in life and how he navigated
them. And no, those weren't in the
military nor wings suiting. It actually
comes from his personal life which he
shares very candidly. And finally, we
have a very serious and in many ways
somewhat emotional discussion about
suicide and mental health more
generally. I do hope that that
discussion will benefit all of you. I'm
certainly we are certainly I should say
very open to your input. That discussion
of course raises more questions than it
provides answers. But I think we can all
agree that this is an extremely
important and timely topic. The
frequency of suicide is increasing
significantly in all communities. So for
reasons related to the range and the
nature of the specific topics that we
discuss today, you're in for a very
special episode. Thank you, Andy Stumpf.
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize
that this podcast is separate from my
teaching and research roles at Stanford.
It is however part of my desire and
effort to bring zero cost to consumer
information about science and science
related tools to the general public. In
keeping with that theme, today's episode
does include sponsors. All right, my
book is finally ready for release.
Protocols, an operating manual for the
human body is coming out in 3 months.
It's my first book and I've been working
on it for many years now and it's really
a reflection of decades of research and
experience that came even prior to
starting the book. My goal for this book
is that it serves as an easytouse manual
for dealing with any number of different
pain points or performance goals that
you might have in terms of mental
health, physical health, and
performance. It covers the science and
most effective protocols for sleep,
nutrition, exercise, focused learning,
and neuroplasticity, stress management,
and much more. I'm super excited to
share it with all of you. The launch
date is September 15th. You can learn
more about it or pre-order by going to
protocolsbook.com.
It's also available on Amazon.com. And
I'm super excited that Protocols is
finally ready for release. And as
always, thank you for your interest in
science. And now for my discussion with
Andy Stumpf. Andy Stumpf, welcome.
>> Thank you for having me.
>> I read your book, Drown Proof Reese,
>> which makes me nervous, by the way.
Telling you that before we started.
>> Listen, I've read [laughter]
a lot of books, including a lot of the
quote unquote seal books. It's awesome.
I'll mention a few of the reasons why
it's awesome, but I'll let people read
it for themselves. But just to really
get right to it, one of the practices
that you describe in the book is
something that I decided to do right
away, and I've been doing every week
since I listened to it. Now, granted, I
just listened to the book a few weeks
ago, so that means twice, but I found it
to be tremendously useful, not just
during the exercise, but in the days
that follow. And it's really uh remapped
a lot of uh what I would call my
unhealthy tendencies and given me much
more sense of agency and my days are are
just going so much better. In fact, I
was on time today for the first time in
my life.
>> Influence versus concern.
>> Yes. So, could you describe this uh
simple exercise because I I'll tell you
having having done it, it is immensely
powerful. I only wish I had learned
about it like in junior high school.
>> Story of my life. Yeah. Uh so first off,
not my creation. This is something I
don't remember and I think I said this
multiple times in the book because I
want to be very clear that of basically
taking ownership over nothing in that
book because they're not my unique
ideas. They were things that were taught
to me that I'm trying to pass forward.
So, I don't remember exactly where I
first saw this, but the way it was first
uh positioned to me was your circle or
sphere of influence, which is very
small, and your sphere of concern, which
for most people, to include myself, is
very large. So, if it was the size of
this table, that would be your concern.
The influence would be the size of a pin
drop on the table. And the exercise is
actually really simple. Take a standard
piece of paper, draw a line down the
middle, concern on one side, influence
on the other, and you just take the time
to write down the things that are
occupying your waking hours. I don't
know if you're anything like me, I try
not to set an alarm unless I have
something really pressing that day, but
if I do wake up and my brain does a
revolution, I have to get out of bed
because otherwise I'm staring at the
ceiling in the bedroom. And
if I have really sticky things in the
morning, I'll I'll usually do this about
once a month or once every six months
now. But almost every time that thought
will be on the left hand side of the
column. It's just a concern. Why is it
preventing me from going back to sleep?
Why can't I let go of it? And it's
social media, the world that we all live
in. It's things you can't control. It's
just all the stuff that you spend your
energy and effort focusing on. And then
you go to the other side of that paper
and I'm still yet to find more than one
thing that you can write down. And
that's the direct influence that you
have. And all you really can write on
that is yourself. Now you can you can
tunch that out and say your thought
process, the way you speak to yourself,
the way you plan your day, the way you
manage your time. But all that goes back
into things you can actually directly
control which leads you to the
realization or leads me to the
realization that I have no control over
what happens to me in my life but I have
absolute and complete and total control
over how I respond to it. And I think
that speaks to the agency piece and it
helps me especially when I have those
sticky thoughts. It helps me at least
take a step back. I'm not going to say
I'm perfect and I can put down a lot of
the things that I'm concerned with, but
it will identify for me a healthy or an
unhealthy attachment to those things and
it does help me cross back over to okay,
I understand that this is scary or
concerning, but being scared or
concerned about it doesn't impact
outcome. Everything on the right hand
side of the paper does. So that's what
it does for me. Man, you want to talk
about developing some more efficiencies?
It's a great tool. It's startling how
much is going to be on the left and how
little is going to be on the right.
>> Yeah, it's been a game changer for me
because and maybe I misinterpreted the
exercise a little bit because on the uh
right hand side of the uh the page, I've
been listing out the things that I can
control and the things that I can do
with my time.
>> That still goes back to you're
controlling the management of your time.
That's totally fine.
>> And with all these tools, I don't think
there is a wrong answer if it has the
impact that you're looking for. Again,
you could titrate all that back up to
you controlling yourself and what you do
with your time. I think it's perfect.
>> Yeah. Again, just an awesome exercise. I
really encourage everyone to do it for
me once a week has been very helpful and
it just pops to mind anytime I'm
thinking like I saw something in the
news yesterday and and you start going
down these rabbit holes and you're like,
wait, what am I doing? Like, what am I
doing? And and we can blame the
algorithms, we can blame the world, but
ultimately Yeah. You know, it's, you
know, once you realize that you're being
manipulated, I think the obligation is
to not follow that that path.
>> The algorithm is real. I don't know what
it means. I've listened to people argue
about it at nauseium, but I have the
choice as to whether or not I interface
with the algorithm. And that's where the
power
>> that's what I think the algorithm is
trying to do is figure out a way to take
that power away from you
>> and put it back into their hands. But
it's optional.
>> You learned this some years ago.
>> Yes.
>> In the teams.
>> Yes.
>> But you still do it now about once a
month.
>> Mhm.
>> Mhm. [clears throat] you carry around
with you.
>> If you're anything like me, I spend a
lot of time on airplanes. It's a really
good time to occupy yourself with
something that is for me at least
productive as opposed to just tuning out
and watching YouTube videos of sovereign
citizens get arrested, which is one of
my favorite pastimes. I highly recommend
people get into it.
>> These are the people that um that say
you can't arrest me. I'm a sovereign
citiz.
Are they out there testing the law or
are they hoping that they'll get, you
know, flagged and and that there'll be a
video so they can promote the sovereign
citizen thing or they are they just
really into being sovereign citizens and
living their lives?
>> I think some of them fall into the first
category and I think some of them
actually just legitimately believe.
>> Okay.
>> And they uh there's amazing things on
the internet.
>> You shouldn't believe all of them,
>> right? [laughter]
>> Maybe even most of them.
>> That's a fair point actually. the vast
majority of things you should take I
think with a large dose of scrutiny on
the internet.
>> We're about the same age. So late 40s
for you, 50 for me. I was thinking about
this in light of this concern versus
influence exercise, which is, you know,
that they created these like 10 and 20
and 30 year high school reunion things.
I think for the reason that you have the
choice to go back and learn about what
people are doing and who's still
married, who's still alive, who's
thriving, or what whatever, whatever the
reason is, we have these things called
reunions. But with social media, there's
this opportunity to be constantly aware
of everybody you grew up with, them of
you, uh people you knew 5 years ago in a
job that you no longer think about. So I
I feel like that left column now has
grown tremendously regardless of
somebody's age. The opportunity to be
aware of so many more things not just
distant in other countries and other
other issues entirely but like our past
lives are very much like anchored to us
now unless we really literally draw that
line and and sever from all that stuff.
Because like as much as I wish the best
for all my classmates and all these
people in graduate school and whether
like it it really a lot of it should not
occupy one's mind. Do you ever wonder
whether social media itself is making it
harder to do this exercise?
>> I think it could be. Do you know who
Chad Wright is?
>> Yes, I know of him and we've
corresponded a little bit.
>> He is hilarious.
>> You want We should probably describe it.
>> He does the same type of stuff that
Gogggins does. He's an endurance
athlete.
>> Long red beard. I call him the Forest
Gump of the Seal teams to his face so
I'm comfortable saying it. He's amazing.
I've had him on the show a couple times.
Uh knew him when we were in the teams
together and he came on the show on my
show in November and I don't know
[clears throat] how we started talking
about it but it was this conversation
around screen time. It's like all right
bud [clears throat] let's pull the
phones out. Let's see what we got. It's
not awesome. I think it was 4 and 1/2
hours. So, we decided that in January of
this year, we're going to try to drive
our screen time per day to under an hour
for total phone usage. I think phone
calls we were able to strip out of that.
[gasps]
I think the closest he got was about 90
minutes. And then the last week of
January for me, I got mine down to 30
minutes. Now, for clarity, I was still
doing a lot of the stuff that I was
doing on my phone, but I forced it over
to my laptop, which was a really
interesting experience because it's way
less sticky on that platform. So,
Instagram on your laptop sucks. [snorts]
It's not intuitive. The things that you
would normally just do with your thumb,
they don't exist. So, you end up closing
your laptop up. So, I'd get on there,
post what I wanted to, and then just
leave. My mental health was better in
January than it had been in a long time.
So, I 100% think that social media is
not only designed to suck up as much as
that left-hand portion of your list as
possible, but again, it's it's optional.
I mean, you create content, you have a
massive platform. I create content. We
can easily tell ourselves we have to
exist on these platforms, which to a
degree we do. The question I ask myself
is, is the platform working for me or am
I working for it? And that's the healthy
relationship. And I think actually that
goes right back to that exercise. Am I
targeting what I do with my time and
being efficient with it and then moving
on? Or am I just getting stuck into this
thumb scroll of death, which is right
before bed? I've heard you say it's the
best time to have electronic device
light.
>> Yeah. [laughter] Real bright in a dark
room
>> right before bed. Right.
>> If you really want to maximize, make
sure you do it first thing in the
morning, too. And don't get outside and
look at the sun, you know. But it's so
sticky. I'm telling you, when I hopped
over to my laptop,
>> at first I couldn't even figure out how
to post a picture
>> and it's so clunky and so not intuitive
that you don't want to play with it.
>> Are you still there now?
>> Oh, no. I went right back to using my
thumb.
>> What's Chad doing now with his uh social
media? Is he still
>> He's probably doubled it. He said the
same thing, too, by the way. Man, this
is amazing. We should do this more often
and just right back to being on your
thumb again by probably March. So what's
mindboggling about this is and you'll
tell me no we're just ordinary people
who were trained to do extraordinary
things but you know seal seal selection
you know pairs down you know for every
hundred guys you know maybe 15 get
through maybe 10 you know consistently
right discipline is certainly a piece of
that resilience mental toughness you
know whatever language you want to throw
at it you have that Chad has that you
guys were weaned in that you were forged
in that then you do high-risisk high
consequence work right and on minimal
sleep etc etc And here are two guys
challenging each other to spend less
time on social media. Accomplish it by
virtue of competition. Okay, cool. And
then you say revert. What does that say?
Not about seals. [laughter] What does
that say about the platforms? Cuz I
mean, think about the rest of the world.
>> It says everything you need to know
about the platform. The fact that you
could, like you just said, you can
recognize all of those things. You can
both text each other back and forth and
you're limited phone usage for the day.
Man, this is awesome. and 60 days later,
you're back to the same behavior that
led you to the November or December
conversation.
>> That's all you need to know about the
platforms.
>> Okay, I I have to drill into this. This
is not where I thought we would
[laughter] we would go first, but but it
gets right to the heart of discipline
and self-control versus influence and
time and and time is everything. When
you are on a social media platform and
you're scrolling away, are you aware of
the time that's drifting away from you?
>> Yes.
>> Are you thinking why am I doing this but
I feel compelled to do it or are you
oblivious? Is it like being drunk where
you don't you you're not thinking about
the the the fact that you shouldn't be
doing it until you sober up.
>> I'm aware. I am aware that it's not
healthy and I will actually sometimes I
don't know if you're like this. I talk
to myself out loud. Somebody from the
outside would probably think I'm a
psychopath, but uh I will I will say to
myself, why why are you doing this? This
doesn't feel good. And just
>> for hours.
>> An hour. An hour. 45 minutes.
>> I can't go that far. I I would I would
feel as if I needed to take a shower if
I went that far. But if I have 15
minutes,
>> man, it's it's enticing.
>> And I don't know what it is about it. I
don't feel joyful after doing it. I try
not to compare myself to other people.
Good luck being on the internet and
doing that. I try not to get caught in
the uh the negativity aspect of it
because I can I recognize the negativity
bias in myself where you'll get 99 like
this is amazing and one guy is like you
kind of suck and you're just like you
mother [laughter and clears throat]
that's the only comment you pay
attention to.
>> It's the brain is is uh wired for to
identify those outliers.
>> So I refuse to be mean on social media.
I won't make negative comments. Um well
don't get me wrong you can insult people
by not being mean. just have to work
your way around it and takes a little
bit longer. But, uh, I know it's not
healthy. I know I could do
anything other than that time and be
more productive and maybe move my life
just a little bit in the direction I
want to, but I don't. I'd like to take a
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the episode description. I've got a
theory that I'm just going to share.
Please,
>> that I've been thinking about a lot
lately, having just spent some time
with, let's just say, one of the major
providers of online content. It's not a
social media platform. So, I have this
theory that unlike being drunk or doing
drugs of any kind, opioids or or or
amphetamines or something where people
exit the state of of intoxication and
and they realize like, oh my god, like
that was a huge waste of my time, my
life. I made these mistakes. etc. Being
on social media is different because
there's this awareness that we're on
there and we probably could or should be
doing something else often. And I have
this theory that it's the perfect
addiction
because
it's what I would call low resolution
enough that it doesn't occupy all of
your mind. Like when people are really
intoxicated, they're not thinking about
the fact that they shouldn't be
intoxicated. That's the state they're
trying to achieve. This is a state that
people come out of and report. There are
data on this. They go, "Yeah, it didn't
feel good being on there for the last 45
minutes or 30 minutes or I feel like I
wasted a lot of time." So, they're aware
of that even while they're doing it.
Very unusual for addictions, right? Most
addictions fall into the category of
trying to erase the sense of time, lose
themselves in the activity, forget the
trauma if you think it's trauma related,
just forget everything else and just be
in this moment. Gamblers will say this,
right? It's that zone they they crave so
much. This is different. Doesn't feel
really good. you're aware that you're
not supposed to be doing it quite like
that or that much. So, I actually think
it's it's the quote unquote ultimate
addiction because it's low resolution
enough that your brain circuits can get
attached to it and keep doing it while
you're monitoring yourself and yet you
can run these two tracks at the same
time so you're not getting absorbed and
coming out of it going, "Oh my god, I
didn't study for my final exam. Oh my
goodness, I didn't pick up the kids from
school." It's just low resolution enough
that you can still kind of tend to the
the kids, kind of be in a conversation,
sort of be on the Zoom, sort of like and
doesn't totally fall apart. Exactly. And
so in some ways, because it's not so
extreme, I think that's actually one of
the problems. The other problem is, of
course, our brains can, but are not
really designed to be split into these,
you know, two different activities for
for terribly long. It's not just an
inability to multitask. I actually think
that low resolution thing is you can
kind of do it while you're doing other
things. So I'm just this is something
that I actually want some laboratories
to look at.
>> Where does that lead if left unchecked?
>> Well, for you and for me, the
consequences are different and probably
less immediate because we've already
built our careers. There's the social
detriment, you know, relationships to
family and stuff that undoubtedly suffer
somewhat, right? But they're doing it
too, right? So there's that. I do worry
now I really sound like I'm in my 50s
like about the younger generation
because I don't know whether I would
have been able to escape this tunnel.
>> Yeah.
>> Had these devices been around. So I
think that otherwise incredible
accomplishments and human beings and
careers and families and everything in
between art and music is literally not
going to be made. I fear this much more
than I fear AI to be honest. I much much
more.
>> Yeah. in terms of taking away jobs and
taking away careers. I think that
because it's it's I'll tell you this, I
am confident that it is way way worse
than the than the quote unquote opioid
crisis which was already terrible.
>> I think we're going to be okay. So, I
have three data points which happen to
be my children. So, almost 18, almost
21, almost 23.
>> My middle son has got it dialed.
>> He's going to college in Bosezeman. I
think he's getting ready to start his
junior year in mechanical engineering.
He's doing an internship at a quantum
computing laboratory. I don't know what
that means. He tries to tell me. I'm
like, he just talked to my wife. It's
super cool stuff.
>> He made a robotic hand. Of course, the
first way he tested it was a middle
finger, which I deeply, deeply
appreciate.
>> He is your son
>> 100%. He exists on social media. Mhm.
>> He downloads the app once per week,
spends an hour on it, erases it because
it's the pendulum going the other
direction for him.
>> Mhm.
>> My oldest keeps it on his phone, but
uses it very sporadically and it's
almost at least so the middle one's
going to be 21. The other one's going to
be 23. My oldest now is almost at the
point and I think his peer group is
almost at the point a little bit of
mocking people who spend, you know what
I It's almost now it's almost almost on
the other side like oh you're one of
those even though they were raised with
electronic devices in their hand. My
daughter on the other hand surgically
connected to her hand and is constantly
consuming. So, I think she will get
there as well, too, because when I can
kind of pull her out of that digital
world or we go places that have less
than optimal cell coverage intentionally
and somehow the Wi-Fi doesn't show up
because dad unplugs the router like,
"Oh, there's no Wi-Fi at the house. That
sucks." She can see the light, but my
other two, as they've gotten a little
bit older, they have they have seen it
and found it on their own. And I I think
we're gonna be okay because I think that
generation now is really
viewing these platforms with a little
bit more of a wary eye.
>> And I don't know why, but my middle son
was the first one. He just was like,
"Nope, this is what I do. I'm on there
for an hour. It's 100% for memes for
him." And then he just deletes the
thing.
>> Great. No, I'm I'm I'm very reassured by
by what you just said.
>> That's a data point of three, though.
So, well, it's interesting because the
data on, for instance, um, smoking in
teens, like when we were growing up, a
lot of people smoked. Young people
smoked. You know,
>> that'd be your first act of rebellion.
>> There were all these campaigns to try
and get young people to quit smoking.
And they did not work. It's going to
give you lung cancers.
>> This is your lungs after smoke. None of
that worked. What worked was the ad
campaign that had these old white dudes
cackling and talking about all the money
they were going to make on these young
kids smoking. So, the rebellion of
youth, if you leverage it against the
big industry platforms, no one likes to
be manipulated, but when kids realize
and teens realize that they're being
manipulated, they'll push back in a way
that can be really good for them, which
is a little bit of what what we're
hearing here. So, so you know,
>> as a parent, I can tell you they push
back in ways super hard, maybe almost
pendalum the other way. I tell you what
they're also pushing back on in my all
three of their generation, alcohol
consumption.
Damn. Don't get me wrong, they there's a
time and place for everything. We go to
a yearly jiu-jitsu retreat in Costa
Rica. The drinking age is 18. One of my
sons is in college. Like I said, it's an
interesting watching those two. That
might be the only singular time they
drink in an entire year. That was the
opposite of me growing up and the the
culture of the first community I went
into. It is wild to see the push in the
other direction. And now I talk peptides
or my middle son. I told him I was
coming here. He's just like, "Oh, oh,
ask him what I need to be doing for
sleep optimization." Like, "Oh
[laughter] my god."
>> Happy to send it to him. That's his
generation.
>> Mhm.
>> I was not I think I started looking at
sleep optimization about last Thursday.
>> You know, it just wasn't the thing that
we were looking at. So, I actually, as
much as my children, I truly believe
children are just designed to sharpen
their teeth on the parents bones, I also
have a lot of faith on the next wave
coming through.
>> This is not a question I ever thought I
would ask on this podcast as somebody
who did an episode on alcohol that got
some reach and got people rethinking
whether or not they wanted to drink. And
I should just quickly say the major
response to that was one of three
different um types. One was, I don't
like drinking and now I can justify not
drinking. There were a lot of people who
felt that they had to drink and now they
had justification not to. Other people
who said, "Wow, I didn't realize that,
you know, it can increase breast cancer
risk. You know, we have cancers in our
family and that's a real thing." So, you
know, class one carcinogen, etc. And
then the third category, like, you know,
I wish you hadn't told me this
information. I really enjoyed drinking
and now my friends don't want to drink
with me. Fair and I don't tell people
what to do and I, you know, etc. But
I have to ask, do you think that your
kids and their generation are possibly
missing out by virtue of, you know, not
drinking at all?
>> That's a fantastic question. I mean, it
is a social lubricant
>> for a degree. I was probably and still
am antisocial in large crowds. Is there
an aspect of that where it legitimately
helped me not necessarily feel more
comfortable, but maybe get out of my own
way when I was younger? Yes. Did it lead
to some bad decisions along the way?
Yes. Did bad decisions and those
consequences shape the human being that
I would become along the way? Yes.
I don't know where it it where it lands.
I do think that there is a chance that
yes, they are missing out on maybe not
formative life experiences, but
important life experiences. Well, I
think the the camera phones are a big
concern with drinking now because people
are so worried about becoming uh less
inhibited and maybe not even saying or
doing the wrong thing, but even things
as trivial as like look, not everyone is
an awesome dancer. They can get filmed,
they can get posted, they can get
teased, there's social shame. The other
problem is that many many people are
awesome at certain things and those are
the things that tend to be high
amplitude also and so people feel like
they you know if they're going to be
seen online they have to be in some in
impressive form. So I don't really know.
I I do worry about the cannabis thing
because I'm not anti-cannabis, but I do
think given a couple drinks a week
versus smoking weed in terms of like the
the overall risk benefit, alcohol seems
less risky to me. But the the can
>> Yeah, I think so. I mean, look, there
are high high performers and people who
can use cannabis and that like not a
problem.
>> Young males in particular who have a
predisposition to psychosis or bipolar
disorder. Yeah. Some of them smoke high
potency weed or even low potency weed
and they never come back from the
psychotic episode. I know a lot of
examples of that and that's in the data
now. So alcohol, yeah, you can drive off
a cliff, you can run somebody over, you
can say or do something really really
stupid. But assuming those things don't
happen, the the immediate risks and
long-term consequences of like having
having a couple beers or a couple drinks
or maybe even a few more,
>> you get home safe, you don't say or do
anything stupid, like you're not going
to make yourself psychotic.
>> I'm kind of in the same boat that you
are. I'm not here to tell people how to
live their life. I do think that they
should pay attention to the risk versus
reward. you know, live your life how you
want. Your choices are going to have
potential consequences, and some of
those can be pretty big. There's some
things I deeply regret about my
expressions of being a human being when
I was drinking when I was younger. And
there are some things that I feel like
my life would be completely different
without that I would never want to give
those experiences back.
>> I don't know how you table that though.
>> This is a fascinating cover.
>> Didn't know we were going to go here.
>> Yeah. It's I mean I at my own life I
wouldn't give up those experiences
>> but I also don't feel comfortable saying
you have to drink to have them.
>> Mhm.
>> I don't know what the difference looks
like though. Maybe later on as you grow
into your I mean I'm a more confident
person now absent alcohol than I was a
more confident person younger absent
alcohol. So maybe time will help you get
to those places where you could take
those actions where you needed that
social lubricant. But maybe not. I don't
know man. Well, it's like sleep is super
important and I think it's great for
everyone, especially young people, to
understand just how great they can feel
and mentally and physically perform when
they're well rested. I think it's also
an important not just right of passage,
but experience to know just how terrible
you can feel after a night of no sleep
and still go take a midterm exam or go
for the run you were supposed to go for.
because it's quote unquote the best
thing for you, but just because how do
you explore the outer margins of your
capacity unless you know how feeling
really great feels and how let's just
say not lousy but how po like minimally
good you can feel and still complete
something while you're completely
crushed like I mean after a breakup
after two or three nights of poor sleep
in a very stressful time not having
eaten perfectly like it's good to
understand what a workout or what going
to class and forcing yourself to stay
awake or having a hard conversation with
your significant other feels like when
it's like the the last thing your body
wants you to do. I think there's utility
there. You know, it's kind of like the
ice bath of of mental experiences,
right?
>> Are you a fan of the ice bath?
>> I am. And
>> what temperature?
>> Cold. I So on Rogan, I said, you know,
low 50s. And he he like he was shocked
and dismayed. He looked he seemed it was
like an older brother or guy you respect
looking at you like oh man should we
even continue this podcast. I was like
you and I quickly went to yeah but I go
into the sauna at 220 degrees Fahrenheit
you know which I do. I'm very heat
tolerant not as cold tolerant. I like to
do cold shower cold plunge or whatever
like you know low 40s now.
>> All right. To me, there is nothing as
reliable and provided you don't like
jump into an ice hole or something
stupid like that or do you know
hyperventilation breathing and then jump
into cold water which has killed people.
Provided you don't do that. I I don't
know of anything that is both safe and
reliably can give you that adrenaline
spike
>> in a way that you can start to learn to
work with what it's like to be in a
highly adrenalized state. I think
there's just value in having your but
body flooded with adrenaline somewhat
against your will but you're controlling
some of it and learning. I think it's a
great space to explore, okay, do I
distract myself? Do I lean into it? Like
you can you can explore a lot of your
own consciousness in these high arousal
states. And I do think there's
carryover. And yes, there's a nice long
wave of dopamine that lasts many hours.
That's known. There's a nice long wave
of adrenaline.
>> But yeah, I think it's a great training
tool if you don't want to do it
immediately after resistance training
because it can uh it can reduce some of
the the the quote unquote gains you
would get because it it vasa constricts.
You want blood flow. You want to peruse
the muscles in order to, you know, get
get the strength and hypertrophy uh
benefits from the training. But provided
you do it before or on off days or 6
hours after you resistance train, I
think it's a really valuable tool.
>> What protocol would you use? I like to
have my cold plunge at about 80. What
would you do like 10 in, five out a
couple times?
>> 80° F.
>> It's great. I can bump it to 85 if you
think that that's a little too low. You
know, team guys have this advantage that
they did all that so they can be like,
"I did it. I don't want to do it."
Right? That's kind of like I went
through that.
>> That's an advantage.
>> You know, it's like the people who are
sleepd deprived in medical school.
They're like, "Yeah, I don't do that
anymore." I get it. Like you guys
suffered enough. When I went down to
Jacos, he he specifically had me um do a
heat cold protocol because I like to do
three rounds of each. You know, heat
somewhere about, you know, 210 215,
maybe as high as 220, which is hot, but
I'm pretty heat tolerant.
>> For how long?
>> That would be 20 minutes. and then go
into the you don't want to start right
off with that right and then go into the
cold. And so they packed the sauna, they
cranked that thing up and they kept
resetting the clock and literally he'll
tell you I was down on the floor where
it's you know not cool but it's still
colder heat rises obviously and his
daughters they were laughing his family
and then so everyone in there young and
old male and female was just laughing at
me. So, he has what he calls the factory
reset protocol, which is where you don't
know how hot or how long you're going to
be in there, and you don't know how cold
or how long you're going to be in there.
And we'll talk about this a little bit
about time, but I don't know if you
don't like the cold, you don't have to
do it, but I do think most people can
really benefit from it.
>> I'm saying I'll develop a protocol for
80. The sauna will be at 97. Easy
transition back and forth. Who knows?
>> All right. um taken from the guy who
jumps out of uh or off of mountains in a
in a squirrel suit. Let's talk about the
squirrel suit.
>> Sure.
>> And why in the world anyone who values
their life seriously though would do
this? And is there an off-ramp? Is there
a parachute? And uh when you learn how
to do this,
>> how hard is it to learn? And what's the
juice there?
>> Okay, a lot of questions there. Okay,
it's funny. A lot of people call them
squirrel suits. It's just a wing suit.
Squirrel is actually a manufacturer of
one of the suits. fantastic branding.
They happen to be the suit that I
jumped. So, essentially, it is
a human body turning into a nylon wing.
That's really all it is. It's nylon.
It's some neopre around the wrist. So,
you have a little bit of flexibility in
the wrist. They're really actually
advancing the leading edge technology
with the fabrics. Just I mean, it's
crazy to look I don't know the name of
the program, but you're looking at all
of these images from the side of wind
angles and how the suits they're looking
to reduce drag. Um, and it's more than
just the rigidity of your body. So, at
least the suits that I jumped are modern
suits. They are ram air inflated. So,
there is an outer layer on both sides,
an upper layer, let's say, for the your
back, and an under layer for your belly.
In between, it's much like a canopy.
There's ribbed fabric with port holes.
And on the front and back of the wing,
as you give it air speed, either exiting
an airplane that's already in flight,
it's most skydiving airplanes are
probably doing 80 to 120 miles an hour
or in the base jumping world, and this
is where it can get spicy, is you have
no air flow for about the first 4
seconds because
>> base jumping, for those that don't know,
is
>> fixed, call it a fixed object. Building
antenna span or earth is what the
acronym stands for.
>> You're probably not going to do it off
of buildings because it's it you need
time to get the suit actually flying.
But it's a different experience because
if you jump out of an airplane, those
ram air inlets fill up. Your suit is
it's pressurized. You can feel it and
you can already fly your suit. You can
flip over. You can actually I've gotten
above aircraft many time. You can
basically translate that horizontal lift
into power and go above them shortly.
You're going to come back down. Um
otherwise you'll stall the suit and it
starts waffling down. But in the base
jumping world, it's a zero airspeed
exit. So for the first about 0 to 4
seconds, you don't have any air filling
up the ram air inlets. So if you don't
go off in the right body position or if
you go head low and are scorpioning or
head high and then you pitch through
that and there is terrain below you,
that's how a lot of people die. But the
suit itself is is basically that. It's
uh there's wings. There's a large wing
between your leg, a wing underneath your
arm on both the left and right hand
side. And they come in a variety of
sizes. So learning it is
>> [gasps]
>> It's simple, not easy. First off,
skydive before you throw a wings suit on
in the skydiving world. I think I had
3,000 jumps before I put a wing suit on
the first time.
>> Is it important that people do different
types of skydiving? By the way, I'm not
versed in skydiving. So, what's the most
basic type of I I assume a tandem jump,
then you start doing individual jumps?
>> Some people go like I went right to the
first time I did a skydive, I had an
instructor holding on to me from for
both sides until my parachute deployed.
It's a very structured program that most
modern drop zones will have. A lot of
people will do a tandem first, which I
recommend. If you're un if you've never
done it and you're uncertain about
whether or not you would like it, I I
think there's two really good options.
One is a tandem, but if even that idea
makes you a little bit uncertain,
there's now enough wind tunnels around,
commercial wind tunnels. There's down
there's Oceanside wind tunnel. There's
one in LA. There's one in San Diego.
They're all over the place. I was just
in Virginia Beach. There's one in
Virginia Beach. So, it simulates the
sensation of falling through the air in
an environment where you don't have to
wear a parachute. You don't have to ride
an airplane. You literally hop in there.
They can hold on to you and it feels
like skydiving.
>> Sounds like fun.
>> It's leveled up what people can do in
the air cuz it's this contained
environment where you can see if you're
moving a millimeter. The number of jumps
I have had where you get out, you jump
out into the air where your only
reference is another person that's
moving around and you get you were
sliding all over the place. [ __ ] you.
You were sliding all over the place.
Neither of you know cuz your reference
is the earth just flying around and then
you get into win tunnel and you're both
up against the glass. You're like we
both suck. So makes it a little bit more
difficult. The most basic type of
skydiving would be just exiting the
plane in flighting with your belly to
the oriented towards the ground and
deploying your parachute on time.
Skydiving is two parachutes, main
parachute and reserve. Reserve is packed
by an FAA rigger and I believe it's for
one period of time it was 90 days in
between pack jobs. I think it's 6 months
in between pack jobs down but full. They
open it up, the reserve, they open the
parachute up, they inspect it, they make
sure that the canopy is good, the lines
are good, um the automatic activation
devices, which are computers sensing uh
fall rate, barometric pressure with a
firing criteria, which will fire your
reserve for you if you do nothing, which
has hundreds of documented saves, by the
way,
>> um for an unconscious jumper, whatever
it may be, or somebody, as crazy as it
is to say, somebody falling through the
air, forgetting to look at their
altimeter. because they're having so
much fun.
It happens. So, cypresses or vigils or
just AADs, automatic activation devices
have saved hundreds of lives. So, that
reserve parachute is packed by a rigger.
Most civilian jumpers will pack their
own main parachute. It takes 5 minutes
for an experienced jumper, maybe 20
minutes for somebody who is learning.
And you can go do
I think the most jumps I've ever done in
a day was probably 30. That was at a at
a an event called a boogie where it's
just as fast as you can go and you're
just jumping jumping jumping. An average
day for me when I lived in San Diego
would be six to eight jumps. I'd like to
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co-enzyme Q10 with your first AG1
subscription. For somebody's first
non-tandem jump, how high is the plane
off the ground?
>> 13,000 is about average. 13 AGL. So, if
you're learning in Colorado or another
Rocky Mountain state, you might only get
12 AGL because you might be up to 16 to
18,000 ft. Mhm.
>> But there's [clears throat] flying with
your belly oriented to the earth.
There's people who like to do it
vertically, either feet down or head
down. People who fly on their back.
There are formation jumps where they'll
get a bunch of people together. I think
the world record is hundreds of people
linked up in freef fall. You can watch
it from the ground. It's crazy to see.
They'll have eight aircraft and you just
see these just people bombing out of the
back
>> and they'll make these snowflake
configurations and people just sitting
there on the ground watching either
naked eye or with uh
>> with binoculars. And then at breakoff
altitude, everybody's tracking away and
then all these canopies open up and then
on landing it gets a little bit wild. So
it can get as much as you want. And then
um wing suiting is just a part of that.
But you can jump a a smaller wing suit.
So if the suits I ended up jumping had a
lot of fabric because I wanted to have a
nice glide ratio and I wanted to be able
to extend the amount of time in the air.
You can get suits with a smaller wing
which give you more maneuverability and
you learn in those and then get a little
bit bigger, a little bit bigger and
bigger, bigger. So, as safely as
possible, graduating your way towards
those larger suits that can have more
consequence. Uh you can end up on your
back in the wing suits and flat spins.
And I've seen people they you can get
out of it. You need to get out of it
quickly, but we're talking fully blown
uh red eyes when they get to the ground
from centrifugal force. and pretty
quick, too. That's the skydiving world.
Two parachutes. The base jumping world
is you're now down to one parachute that
is packed very similar to a reserve, but
it's packed now by the jumper who is
doing the base jumping. And the reason
for that is you are generally very close
to the ground at an altitude where a
reserve isn't going to save you because
it does take a couple hundred feet for a
reserve to open up. And um in the US
there's one place to legally do it 24/7
365. It's the Pine Bridge up in Twin
Falls, which is where I learned it's,
you know, the legality aspect is if
people pursue to go that they want to go
that way, um, do your research because
there's some cities that had some
problems with it. So, they made it a
felony, which will change your life if
you want to test gravity off of a
building. I don't know if the capital F
is necessarily worth it. Vegas and New
York are two good examples of that. Um,
most people start off with that bridge.
Uh, and then an antenna is, of course,
exactly that. radio antennas and there
are other countries in the world where
that is legal to do and a lot of times
people will travel [gasps]
uh buildings you can get permission uh
depending um I know one of your guys
worked with Red Bull not for Red Bull he
clarified for us shockingly enough if
you write a large check things that were
once illegal
>> can become legal for short periods of
time so they will get permission to go
off of buildings
>> or you can go to Dubai where for I think
it was a year they had this huge just it
was fully just set up for legal base
jumping off one of the top floors of one
of those skyscrapers, which is
unbelievable. And then Earth, which is
obviously that and cliffs. Um, my first
uh base jump off of a uh actually was
from the bridge. I have I should I have
done an antenna buildings not many
building not many buildings but my first
jump uh off the earth was Monte Brento
in Italy which you jump open your canopy
land walk across the street and there's
an Italian espresso just waiting for you
perfect it's basically heaven and then
we stayed there for two and a half weeks
and went into Lauder Brunin in
Switzerland
but I had been skydiving and flying a
wings suit then I had to learn how base
jump and then at some point you have to
combine those two. So one day you have
to go from never having pushed off of a
cliff in a wings suit and having time
flying it in the air to kind of bridging
that gap where now you have this first 4
seconds that you have to deal with where
the the suit feels really sloppy. It
doesn't feel rigid and you can't really
do anything until it powers up and you
can pull away. So that's kind of the
activities. The why I can't answer for
anybody other than myself, but the why
for me actually had nothing to do with
the activity itself. And it is
dangerous. There are some people who try
to romanticize the danger of that. And
if people want to part participate in
things because they're dangerous and
that's how they want to define
themselves. I leave that to you. Um
just, you know, be aware of the
potential consequences you might get
yourself into. For me, I got into that
about three years after I got out of the
Navy, and I didn't realize what it was I
enjoyed so much, but it was the mental
reset associated with that. Um, at about
1 minute out on a helicopter, for me,
and I can only speak for me, your
entire, you know, we talking about time,
your entire circle of
concern goes away, completely gone. And
there are very few times in my life
where I've ever been able to get into
that headsp space. But it might be the
most powerful headsp space I've ever
been able to arrive into. And my ability
to find my way there lasted for months
afterwards
>> because overseas,
yeah, they ask you to do some some
bizarre stuff, but you also likely at
some point in in your career
[clears throat] will have a family,
maybe your first house, whatever it is,
and like [ __ ] the washing machine
just broke. And you're dealing with real
life stuff. Did I Did I write enough
checks before I left the before the
digital age? Did I write enough checks
before I left to make sure that the rent
was already paid? Now, these are the
things you're thinking about just normal
everyday life, an argument with your
spouse, your kids, the holidays you may
have missed, all that stuff. You get on
a helicopter and you start heading
towards an objective and all that stuff
starts to go away. And in about for me
about the one minute and in until it e
lands or you're stepping off it becomes
this focus on the next 3 seconds of your
life is the only thing I was capable of
thinking about and that is such a
beautiful place. God you want to talk
about the ability
to perform
and not feel like you're necessarily
you're not trying to force it. you're
just there's books been written about
the flow state for lack of a better
term. Incredibly impactful and I didn't
realize how much I needed that and I
didn't realize how much that job was
providing for me until it was gone. And
then the static of everyday life just is
overwhelming. Skydiving,
I guess you could get that or maybe I
got that when I first started, but after
a few thousand jumps,
about everything that's going going to
go wrong, you're going to have your
first cutaway. you're going to have a
mount, you know, I mean, you're going to
deal with your gear, your reserve is
going to open. And so that that really
narrowed focus, it actually starts
opening back up.
The base jumping world, I remember the
first time I was the guy who taught me,
he's like, "All right, you just climb
over the edge of the rail here and
you're looking at 486 ft. You test the
wind by spitting and if you can if it
drifts past a certain point, you're good
to go. [laughter] So you can track your
spit to where you are going to deck if
you don't pull your parachute. Now on
the first one, he's holding on to the
pilot shoot so it rips it off for you so
you don't have to worry about it.
[snorts] But you want to talk about that
right back into that space. Holy cow.
That's what base jumping was for me. I
had some of the the deepest
conversations with my friends on the
4-hour hikes that would lead to a
90-second jump. and two weeks of those
90-cond jumps, I could get myself into
such a more dialed headsp space for 6
months and be better at business,
better, you know, a more patient father,
a more patient husband. That's that to
me is why
>> and at some point
it probably due to the death of my
friends and I had found other activities
that had started to provide that it
crossed the metric for me where the risk
was no longer worth worth the reward. I
I have been skydiving since 1999. I
could take 5 years off and go jump out
of an airplane and I'd be fine. But I
can't do that in the base jumping world.
The currency and competency piece is so
important. And then when I moved to
Montana, my access to the drop zones and
the ability to maintain currency and
competency in that wings suit really
decreased.
So it got to a place where it just it
wasn't worth the risk. Skydiving is
still a bunch of fun, but I found other
activities that I could kind of lose
myself in. Maybe not to the same I don't
think to the same degree. I I
it's hard to describe zipping up in that
suit with a maximal heart rate to the
point where you're looking over your
buddies like, "Hey, can are you hearing
my heart too?" Cuz it's pretty loud.
It's about the you know what I mean like
that thrush in your ears. That's
informative uh [laughter] to hear that
your heart was maxed out because I
wondered if you you know if adrenaline
was low, if it was higher, you know,
something had had happened
systematically over the years in the
teams where your adrenaline was set too
low, you need to crank it above a
certain threshold. Sounds like you were
right where any rational person would
be, which was terrifying
>> because at some point you grab your
little tail wing and you make a little
nice little teepee with it and you get
your toes to the edge and you check all
your stuff and then you are just looking
out into the abyss and you have to make
yourself rock forward past a point of no
return that if you change your mind,
whoopsies, that doesn't work anymore.
And then you need to have maximal human
performance for about the next 4 seconds
of your life
>> if you want your life to continue.
So if you're not scared in that
environment, I would recommend you stop
that activity immediately because you're
not paying attention. It was terrifying
and that's probably why I liked it so
much. It was awesome. Don't get me
wrong.
>> Ripping down a mountain in Switzerland 6
feet off the ground almost playing tag
with your shadow and then turning around
and like carving through trees. Amazing.
So, you're actually pretty low to the
ground, just going very very fast over
steep ground.
>> Yes, if you want to be. Not everybody
chooses to fly that way. And you can you
can have on the exact same jump. I can
think of one very spe uh specifically.
It's at the far end of the valley in
Switzerland. It's a 4-hour hike up. And
it's I mean, you're getting water in
your in your, you know, canteen or
algaene out of like these glacially just
spouting out of the rocks and there's
sheep and stuff and, you know, it's like
a postcard. You walk for 4 hours. You
can have a really aggressive jump on
that and fly for 60 seconds or you could
flatten your suit out and just glide and
glide for two and a half minutes. Same
jump, different choices. Not that, you
know, necessarily flying farther out.
You still need to pack your parachute
correctly and all those things, but your
likelihood of impacting a tree at 100
miles an hour with your face is a lot
better than flying six feet off the
ground around corners that hopefully
you've done some test jumps on and
gotten lower and lower and lower and
lower instead of just flash pointing
that thing and hoping for the best as
you come around the corner, which people
do.
>> How fast are you moving once you're
above the ground?
>> If you really bend those suits over, I'd
say you could get them to about 120
face first. You're a human missile. It's
awesome. [laughter]
>> I can, you know, we can the those of us
like myself listening to this can only
wonder, right?
>> You can [clears throat] feel it in the
suit. So, again, the Ram Air inlets
>> when you're a little bit flatter flying
slow, you just it feels like you're on
an air mattress is really what flying
them feels like.
>> As you bend the suit over and you're
just violently diving at the ground, you
can feel the suit. It's almost like it's
it just your power meter is just all the
way up. And so if you get in trouble,
you can flatten that out. And that's how
that's your safety. You can disconnect
from the terrain, which is how
unfortunately some people die. They're
not paying attention to that sensation
and they're slowly getting flatter and
flatter and flatter and flatter. Then
they encounter flat terrain and they
don't have enough performance in the
suit to clear it and they impact. But
that when you're pitched over like that
and that thing is just and you it feels
like you are licking the largest 9bolt
battery you've ever licked in your life.
[laughter]
>> Would your uh would your parents say
that this this is a window into the
young Andy Stump or or is this a
departure or an an evolution? Devolution
evolution.
>> I don't know if they would have called
that one. I don't think
I I don't know if I would have called
that activity if I would have said this
one was going to be interesting to me.
>> Let me ask you this. When you were a
kid, I'm not recommending anyone do
this, but when you were a kid and your
and your guy [snorts] friends uh someone
found one of the larger firecrackers
available, were you the kid that would
hold it after it was lit until the last
second and then throw it? Cuz I knew
that kid, but it wasn't me.
>> Does he still have both hands?
>> Uh yes. But the he was a great
skateboarder by the way between pro
skateboarder right out of high school.
>> Um moved on to other things eventually.
I think those things were correlated
right. I he big railings like he had a
very very good relationship with
confronting fear. There was another kid
in our crew who would have been around
the corner the moment the thing came
out. Okay. I was neither of those kids.
Yeah. Right.
>> And then there's a distribution in the
middle.
>> Yeah.
>> Where were you?
>> My answer is not going to make sense to
you because holding it that long sounds
dangerous. [laughter]
It is dangerous, but wings suit.
>> I know. That's what I'm saying. It's not
going to make sense. That sounds
dangerous,
>> but just for the sake of danger, which
somebody could 100% say about base
jumping as well,
>> but I don't know if holding on to say an
M80 and wondering, you know, how long
you can provides for you that mental I
mean, I'm talking about your canopy
opens, you land, you're laying in a
[ __ ] meadow in Switzerland on your
back like at a sense of ease and peace.
>> I don't think you're getting that from
an M80. Yeah, the reason I ask is that,
you know, there are a lot of questions
that the scientist in me wants to know
about, you know, resetting of adrenaline
set points and, you know, and because
people can become desensitized to to um
high-risisk, high consequence type
situations.
>> You see that in the wing suiting
community, I would say specifically the
wings suit based jumping community,
>> the fatality rate is high.
>> I would never tell anybody that it is a
safe activity, but I think you can do it
as safely as possible. There's still
immense residual risk, so you have to
ask yourself, what is it worth? If we
were to plot out um number of wings suit
jumps
>> and
plot fatality time of fatality relative
to first jump, right? So, so that the
question like the area under the curve.
So, are you getting to address what you
just said,
>> are you getting more deaths the longer
people have been doing it independent of
the number of jumps, right? You can't
really do that experiment. It's it's not
a perfect experiment. The the question
is, are people getting more dangerous to
themselves because they need they're
pushing further and further into the
abyss, getting closer to the edge, uh,
taking risks, or is the novice more
dangerous because they're a novice?
>> I think the Dunning Krueger effect is
always
>> the most dangerous aspect of it. I think
it would probably track, you certainly
see people, especially in the
content age, I've seen people reach out,
not to me, but to forums, hey, I just
want to get into wings suit base jumping
as fast as possible. And everybody on
there is like, whoa,
>> no, you need to go I mean, most people
will recommend skydiving 200 jumps to
even before you put a wings suit on,
which for most people who aren't doing
it professionally, that's going to take
a year or two. It's a slow progression.
But that person reaching out saying that
doesn't have time for that. So you're
definitely going to get some people
early on. The guys who are around the
longest, the ones that I know who are
kind of the titans in the sport. It's
not that I don't worry about them. I
worry less. I think it's maybe more. I
honestly I think it's that Dunning
Krueger curve where it's going to get
people. Especially when let's say you do
this amazing job, right? you ripping
around a corner and things you learn
later on like, hey, is it ascending or
descending thermals right now? Where's
the wind coming from? What type of day
is this? Is the slope I'm just jumped
off. Maybe it was a
westernfacing slope that I jumped
towards and I felt this amazing upbrush
of air, which is what you want to feel
on an exit point. Same thing as why
airplanes take off into the wind. It
helps with performance. Well, as I am
cruising down this mountain, am I
thinking about the fact that
threequarters of it is covered in the
shade and maybe the thermals have
swished along the way and you're going
to start feeling this pressure of almost
a hand on your back? You, you know, you
do it the first time you do that jump
and you survive. The dangerous thing to
say is nailed it. But did you nail it or
did you get away with it?
>> And that's what kills people. And that's
that perfect Dunning Krueger ascending
line.
>> And there's a a quote that should be
stamped into everyone's brain, young and
old. Did Did you nail it or did you get
away with it? Because it translates to a
lot of areas of life that could spare
people a lot of pain and some important
insights.
>> I got away with it more than I nailed
it.
>> I'm I am
>> Are you just being humble?
>> No.
>> Okay. No, you don't know what you don't
know until
you see somebody else get bit by the
same thing or you're on a jump with
somebody and only one of the three makes
it out or two of the three makes it out
and they all had the same idea and plan
>> and you describe some of that in your
book. I don't want to give that story
away but
>> with Alex specifically. I wasn't there
for Alex's jump but I had jumped with
Alex enough for years.
The the one thing I wish I could do
looking back with him is I was there
with him for some close calls that he
had. A few were bad decisions that he I
would like to think corrected for
because there there is a phase in
anything that you're doing that my uh
instructor taught me how to fly
helicopters. He's like, "Listen, once
you know better, you can do better. But
there's a phase where you don't know any
better. And so you think what you're
doing is correct until either somebody
points it out or you watch something so
horrific happen and you pay attention to
an investigation afterwards or a debrief
afterwards and you can learn from that.
But with uh with Alex, I I wish I could
go back and just honestly slap him
around a little bit because that's what
it would take for him to pay attention.
He would be appreciative of it, I think,
if he understood what it would save. But
I I would associate his death directly
also with that Dunn and Krueger curve.
And he had been doing it for years. That
doesn't mean you're out of that. It's
that middle area where you think you
have everything dialed. I think he had
gotten away with it more than he had
nailed it. And I and I had to. Would you
let your kids squirrel suit? Do I have
the right to stop them?
>> Yes.
>> No.
knowing the risk. I mean, I would do
everything I could to prepare them as
much as possible and and by that I mean
scare the absolute dog [ __ ] out of them
with the reality and confront them with
the actual reality of it. Show them how
long it would actually take,
what they would need to do, what they
would need to sacrifice in order to be
able to get at that level. But then if
they
wanted to make that choice,
I don't feel like I have the right to
stand in between them and that desire.
>> Appreciate the honest answer. I'm sure
I'm sure they do, too. I don't know if
your wife appreciates that particular
answer, but we'll ask her. I don't get
involved in marital disputes. That's a
That's a
>> We don't have any. Our relationship is
perfect. [laughter]
>> Excellent. Excellent answer. Wait,
you've been married before. No, that was
that was a joke.
>> That is correct. I tell you what, I
learned some stuff. I learned some
stuff.
>> You talk very openly in in the book. I
mean, to the extent you don't reveal
specifics, but about the the challenges
of of uh of that the ending of that
first marriage,
>> hardest thing I've ever done in my life.
People think that being a seal is hard,
and it is. Um, but a lot of that is
truncated with, hey, we're going to go
overseas for this short period of time
and time away, and it can be
physiologically and psychologically
challenging. But once you're in that
community, I didn't encounter anything.
The military never asked me to do
anything that that got me to a place
where I was judging or asking myself
what type of person I was or if I was a
good enough person to be able to
continue going forward with anybody
other than just myself. Like those
questions I wasn't asking myself in the
military at the lowest points of a
nearly 2-year divorce process. That was
very contentious. And quite frankly, the
reason I I don't go into details is I
have built a larger or a platform and my
ex-wife doesn't have one. And that's the
fairest way to be about it.
>> I totally respect that.
>> If people want to go talk with her,
trust me, I know the story you're going
to get. Enjoy it. Believe what you want
to believe. I always tell people if you
hear bad stuff about me, please believe
it.
>> That's what you tell them.
>> Yeah. I mean, why not? It it I am
certainly not everybody's cup of tea.
There's no way to please everybody ever.
Amen to that.
>> So if somebody is out there who wants to
run me through the mud, cool. Just
believe every word that you are told if
you want to. But if you want to get the
real spit, come hang out with me for a
bit and maybe compare and contrast those
two things. But if you don't want to do
that, cool.
>> Yeah,
>> that's on you. It took every tool that I
wrote about in that book to get through
that circle of influence, circle of
concern, all the things that I was
worried about. What can I do today?
Breaking time down into the shortest
chunks humanly possible. controlling how
I talk to myself. It was absolutely
soulc crushing
and
10 out of 10. Do not recommend.
>> Yeah, zero stars on Trip Adviser.
>> Yeah, that portion of the book um
stopped me, I have to say. And and I uh
there were other parts of the book that
that paused me where I was like, whoa, I
didn't expect this coming. And you know,
I take notes on what I listen to. I also
read the hard copy. I should have
mentioned that earlier. I like to do
both. It's really helpful for me. Uh I
think maybe other people would benefit
from that as well. But that segment
where you said this is the hardest thing
I'd ever been through and it was as you
put it again soul crushing. And what I
gathered was and I certainly can say
I've experienced this before in a
different context that when
>> other people's narratives start to the
boundaries between other people's
narratives and and your narratives and
then
>> and in your case kids were being
affected which is um which is huge as a
child of a divorced parents. I think
it's also probably got to be somewhat
different. you I mean you talk very
kindly of your own parents your story of
of of your relationship to your mom and
her passing which we can also get to
that also stopped me also got me to call
my mom um [laughter] so she'll thank you
right I call my mom you know well you
know time and you know and you never
know how much you have left
>> you never know how much time you have
left but
>> what inspired you to talk about that in
particular I know you're not one of
these guys and you know I don't want to
say team guys in particular But you're
not one of these guys who wants to paint
a perfect picture of himself. Yeah.
>> But talking about how a contentious
divorce
>> came close to, you know, brought you
really close to your edge, maybe to your
edge, but fortunately not over it.
>> It's an interesting choice and one that
I appreciate and I know readers will
appreciate. It humanized the whole
thing. But what at what point did you
decide that you wanted that in the book?
>> I mean, probably from the beginning. I
think one of the biggest mistakes people
would make is if they would look at a
job like the one I used to have and
think that the people who do it are not
normal people. I was talking with uh
Chris Williamson about this and it's a
mistake that people make. There's no
Captain America shield and cape and cowl
that you actually wear. The things they
ask you to do are sometimes pretty
nutty. But
after that, you go take your gear off,
clean yourself up, get some food,
get together with the guys, and you just
talk about normal dayto-day [ __ ] If you
were having an argument with your wife
before you went out on an operation,
you're coming back to that. If your
house would had burned down, which I
wish I could say I didn't know
somebody's house burned down, but I did.
They got that notification shortly
before we went out on objective.
Hopefully didn't allow that to invade
their mental thought process during, but
when they came back, that's what they're
dealing with. Then you come back from
deployment and you're presented with all
of those things. It's just it is such a
mistake to think that there are people
out there who have everything figured
out or that are impervious to the things
that are damaging to you as the person.
I started doing Q&A sessions on Friday
for my show because I kept getting just
this volume and wave of emails [snorts]
and at first I wasn't really trying to,
you know, tunch them into buckets and I
thought if I started doing the Friday
episodes it would decrease but instead
it m multiplied them by orders of
magnitude and I realized there really
were some deep themes. You know, one of
them is I I just don't know how to get
started on my goals. But another one is
and this is the most dangerous one. I
feel like I'm alone. I feel like I'm the
only person dealing with this.
How can you give me some advice? I look
at your life from the outside and it
seems like you just have, you know, you
were able to do all these hard physical
things. What would you do if you were
me? I'm like, dude, I am you. So, you
have to put that in there. How can you
not? I mean, at the end of the day, I
don't know what I want to do with my
life, but I want to try to help people.
I don't think you can do that if you're
trying to sell [ __ ] But I do think
you can help if you can talk about your
own personal experiences and your own
mistakes and the thing the the things
that you have suffered with not always
past tense because my life is certainly
not perfect and I go through seasons of
my life now as does everybody. Why not
be honest about that? Why try to portray
this,
you know, follow my 12step program for
1999 every month and you're going to
have it all figured out? Those are some
of the most unhappy people that I know,
by the way. and often times not nearly
as successful as they are presenting
themselves.
>> Definitely.
>> I would rather just be like, "Listen,
you think your life is bad? Why don't
you put a seatelt on your chair? I got a
little story for you." And then people
hit, they're like, "What? You mean you
guys deal with that stuff, too?" It's
like, "Yes, that's the whole point.
You're not alone. You're not unique in
this." So, I think from the very
beginning of deciding to write it, I I
didn't know necessarily that I would
that I would use that particular
example,
but if it's the most difficult thing
I've done in my life, I'm obligated to
put that in there and talk about it as
openly as possible while maintaining the
privacy of the other person involved.
Yeah, I was impressed how you m
maintained respect for your kids, for
your ex-wife, your your current
relationship, you know, and um and at
the same time acknowledged that, you
know, the the exchange was anything but
cordial.
>> It was anything but cordial. And you
know, I've talked about this before, but
and I don't know if it made it in the
book, but I lost contact with my oldest
son for 18 months. I was the one who
initiated the end of the relationship,
and he was the oldest at the time. And I
don't know if it was a matter of him
being in a a certain phase of his own
life. And dude, you know the deal. Being
a a young man is not the easiest path,
nor is being a young woman by any
stretch. But it's really interesting how
adults forget how difficult it was in
those years to just get through the day
when you think that everything is you
don't even know who you are. You're
trying to figure it all out. But for 18
months, I I tried calling him. I tried
texting him. I tried writing him letters
to his mom's house. I would pull up next
to him at a parking lot that he would go
to before he went to work and he would
burn [clears throat] out out of the
parking lot without even acknowledging
that I was there. And you think SEEL
training is hard? Imagine something that
you don't have the vocabulary to
describe how much you love and thinking
every day, I don't know if I'm going to
get this back. What else can I do?
And now thankfully by staying the course
I think I have a closer relationship. I
mean and not everybody has that that
outcome but our relationship is probably
closer than it has ever been. and he'll
call and ask for my advice or just want
to bounce stuff off of me, which I think
as a parent, like if your kids are
soliciting your time to ask questions,
whatever it is you're doing, stop doing
that and take the time because it's
pretty awesome and it means that they
care about what you say. But I thought
that was gone, man. You want to talk
about soularching? There's nothing I did
in the SEAL teams that made me wonder
whether or not I was a good enough man
to still exist. But that experience did.
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Wow. Well, I I will say um as the
description of your your final moments
with your mom led me to call my mom, I
wasn't being facicious. It really did.
You know, the description of the divorce
process and the challenges that go there
that, you know, I don't want to make
this about my story, resonated in
certain ways, grew up in a very high
conflict divorce. what you just said.
Now, uh I'm on good terms with my dad,
but I, you know, I'm familiar with being
the son who wants to be protective of
his mom, but still loves his dad and
being caught in the middle. And I would
think about those two. How could you not
with all three of my kids? How? And I
have this conversation with with my wife
now who honestly is the only reason that
I think I pulled out of that was the
recognition and seeing from somebody
else like hey just so you know like I
know you're going through it but this
person sees something in you that is
worth I mean I dedicated the book to my
kids and to my wife for that reason but
we'll talk about this now because some
it's like why why would they say that or
why would they do that and she's like
listen that's always going to be their
mom. I'm like, "Yep, got it. Totally
nailed it. I understand now." And it
reenters and like, "Okay,
>> doesn't make it any easier to deal with,
but I understand."
>> Sons and fathers have a certain dynamic
and um mothers and sons have a certain
dynamic. And mothers and daughters,
fathers, I only know my own experience.
I do have a sister, so I there's a
parallel experiment. There's a control
experiment. She wouldn't appreciate me
calling her the control experiment, but
>> did you realize in your parents divorce
that it was going bad before it did
before they got divorced?
>> Definitely. Um, and listen, I've done a
lot of work with both of my parents to
uh we're on great terms now. I can truly
say that. My dad was on this podcast. I
know you've had
>> uh conversations with your dad publicly.
My dad and I are quite close,
>> you know, and I I now look at it
differently. I I I'm living in a state
of gratitude these days where I
basically like, okay, they gave me life.
It's huge. Like you you can't realize
that when you're younger because you're
like, you know, f my life, you know, at
times, but they gave me life. So,
there's that. They gave me so many
opportunities. And then the hardship of
those years, I had my own story and
version of it. But recently, just
because of some evolutions in my
personal life, which are all good. I'm
like, I'm going to put myself in my
dad's try and put myself in my dad's
frame where he was, what he was trying
to do in his career and in his personal
life. And then my mom's frame. I confess
it's a little harder to do that because
my dad and I are both male and there's
always going to be that. But my mom and
I were still at home and he was living
elsewhere. So I I've tried to really
work through it in those ways and I keep
coming back to this place where I I now
I go oh my god that must have been so
hard for them
>> like not for me like I had I mean years
of understanding how hard it was for me.
I go for them I'm like holy [ __ ] like
that's got to be so tough. I would I
mean I was really hard on my dad.
>> How old were you when you realized your
parents were just people doing the best
they could
>> yesterday? No I'm just kidding. I mean,
>> no. I No, I
>> for a long time in life as kids though,
your parents are
>> what they say, gospel. And they have
they must have the answers to everything
because they're older than any human
being's ever been.
>> Oh man.
>> And then you realize they are out there
making [ __ ] up on the fly, doing the
best they can with the data set that
they have in front of them,
>> not doing great most of the time. It's
not because they're not trying to do
great. They're just [ __ ] people.
>> Yeah. Well, I can't speak for your kids
and I wouldn't, but I can say that for
me, I I joked yesterday, but it was
actually very young because I I came to
this kind of black and white conclusion,
which was not the correct one, which was
they don't know what they're talking
about.
>> And that led me to go elsewhere to look
for answers, and I found a lot of
answers to a lot of things that I
wanted. I also found some wrong answers.
Yeah.
>> Had great mentors throughout my life.
And the day you realize that your PhD
adviser doesn't have the answers, that's
when you go get a postto adviser and
then you realize they don't have the
answers and you go start your own lab
and then you realize, oh my god, how
hard their job was? Cuz now you're
dealing with graduate students that are
like saying things like, "Do you even
know what you're doing?" Until the paper
gets accepted and then they're like, "Oh
my god, like you really know what you're
doing." [laughter] My first graduate
student will laugh when she hears that.
She's actually a professor now with a
she has two kids. She's happily married.
She has super successful lab. So but and
I said, "Have you gone through that
evolution?" and she's like,
"Absolutely." So, I will say this, and I
again, I can't speak for your kids u
whatsoever, but there was a real benefit
to having that realization early that
they don't know everything.
>> Yeah.
>> Because you're you're forced to go look
for certain answers elsewhere. There's
also something really beautiful to the
the reconnect, you know, that I have
with my dad and my mom and I were more
constant over the years because our, as
you said, the relationship can be that
much closer. Would you wish it on
anyone? Would you wish divorce on
anyone? No. But at the same time, like,
you know, my life wouldn't be what it
was. So, that portion of the book, I
have to say, surprised me. I know you're
you're very humble, so please hear this
as it lands. It impressed me that you
were willing to put it in there and the
way you did and how you handled it. And
it really got me thinking about my
relationship to my dad, my own family
life now, uh where that's going. And um
and it gave me a lot of uh
hope and humility around like it's hard
being a person, let alone being a
parent.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, [laughter] and and and the kid
the kid the kid piece is easy is easy to
relate to, but it really opened my
perspective. So, I'm grateful to you for
putting that in there.
>> Yeah. I didn't uh it to me it just
seemed natural. I didn't even give it a
second thought. You're also jumping out
of off mountain sides and squirrel
suits, you know.
>> But I'm telling you, if you've ever
tasted that 9vt the way I did, you might
you might actually be like, "So, what is
this progression?" Let's talk about the
wings suit and the 9volt battery a
little bit more because you talked about
the state that you were in, not just
during, but in the 6 months or so after.
>> So,
>> that's not going to be the long tale of
adrenaline. I'm guessing I don't think
you were walking around for 6 months
like amped on life completely. you were
able to dial in. Could you talk a little
bit more about that? Did you ever take
take some time to think about like what
is this? And did you get that after a
gunfight? Did you get that after uh you
know a funeral? Uh you've gone to more
than your fair share of those. Like what
do you think's going on there?
>> It was the opposite of walking around
adrenalized. People often times have
asked me, you know, what does it feel
like to be an adrenaline junkie? And I'd
say I don't know. I don't feel like I am
one. I might participate in some things
that from the outside would be viewed as
people seeking adrenaline, but I don't I
don't like that hyper adrenalized
feeling where
>> you know well and it could be different
for anybody and everybody whether it's
the tasting copper in your mouth or the
heart rate or the you know feeling your
hair. I don't I don't like that
sensation and that's not what I felt on
the edge. I just was scared shitless
quite frankly. It's not an adrenaline.
It would be the opposite of walking
around feeling like that. I would
describe it as feeling settled or
anchored
>> in the ability to just
sit into it and think clear. It's it's
like having a stereo dial and the static
and you're just twisting it down and
then the BS of life and it comes back up
and it comes back up and it comes back
up and you go on another one of those
trips or I I should say I would go on
another one of those trips and it it
would dial it down after a gunfight.
It's not like the movies most of the
time. It is so fast. It is such a rote
decision but it's high adrenaline
presumably
moderate.
I think it would depend on how much time
you had to make a call. I mean it most
of it is
or in many times a broad example come
around a corner binary threat or not
threat there's not a whole lot of time
to get ramped. I mean you got to make a
decision right there. I think maybe
afterwards you might get an adrenaline
dump or it it might catch up with you
and and I and I don't I can't really
think of any anytime I've thought about
an adrenaline dump where I've seen it.
It's people actually kind of melt a
little bit the far side of that where
they're just
>> Mhm.
>> their performance degrades for sure.
They're on the other side of the bell
curve of performance. I didn't see
anybody experiencing that or maybe they
were doing that when we were on a
helicopter or vehicle on the way out.
Not that much adrenaline. And again, it
it's just not as much time as movies and
TV shows make it out. It's just not that
it's not that sexy. When you got back, I
would say for myself,
you know, if the if the optic of time
starts coming in [clears throat] at
about the one minute out, I would say as
you were to get back
and and I would say for most guys, it's
more of a routine, but taking gear off a
certain way, hang it up, uniform off,
shower, food. I think you find that
settling spot once the guys come back
together generally communally over a
meal or back in your hut whatever your
team you know we would usually have it
separated by team I think you would find
your way to that settled space as well
too so similar I don't know if it was as
powerful though let me ask it slightly
differently coming back from a wings
suit jump and it went well everybody
lived including you maybe learned a few
things maybe some errors you were able
to correct which is also learning but
you feel good about it how do you sleep
that night
>> oh so Good. M. Yeah. [clears throat]
Mhm. Yeah. Probably better sleep.
Um, let me see. I'm trying to think
about sleep. God, I mean, you're going
out so repetitively.
Yeah. I mean, guys are Well, wasn't
unhealthy reliance upon ambient. Is that
sleep or hallucinating? [laughter] I
mean, ambient can induce um some
amnesia. Uh, but you know, it it has its
place, but I it's not it's not the first
line of attack. You know, I I know Seal
Team guys like liked ambient. I think
nowadays they're using things less um
>> it's what they had available.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> And I mean unrestricted in a bowl. Take
what you want.
>> I know people who would take two
unpackage another two, put them next to
their bed with a little cup of water for
the middle of the night when they woke
up.
>> I don't think four is healthy. I'm not a
doctor, but I don't think four is
healthy.
>> There are better ways. But but when
you're out with your wings suit buddies
and you you guys had a great jump that
day and you're going back, everyone
knocks out
>> you're wiped. You're just wiped.
>> And so for that next 6 months, you're
feeling like you're in you're in a
really good space.
>> You would feel it changing at like the
3-month mark, but for for a nice 3
months for me, it was it was clean. You
could just think better.
>> And I I don't know the mechanism behind
it other than maybe your brain gets
better at parsing out the [ __ ] that
doesn't actually matter. And as you get
that focus, so once it identifies it in
that moment, you hold on to it less. I
don't know what's going on there.
>> It's still a mystery. You know, I've
spent some time looking at this in
advance of this conversation. And
>> the the simple theory would be it raises
your stress threshold. So the things
that get you to secrete adrenaline, like
everyday trivial things, that's not
happening anymore. Okay, that's a
reasonable theory. That's actually what
the ice bath will do. That's what a
morning workout will do. But it turns
out that's not what happens when in when
people go into these flow states and you
get this long tail of a of flow
opportunities because the tendency when
people's stress threshold goes up too
high is that uh they tend to engage in a
lot of meaningless behaviors because
they're not stressful enough. You want
the sensation of like that was a tough
conversation and I've got to deal with
it or that was a tough conversation I
just need to avoid this person right
like this is just not a healthy you you
know stress is a good indicator of of
pain and sometimes it's a psychological
pain that we need to overcome ourselves
sometimes is psychological pain we need
to excise from our lives so it sounds
very different than that and the reason
I'm so interested in this is it's the
exact same way that it seems to come up
a lot on this podcast that like Rick
Rubin has described after putting
together an album with some amazing
artists where they've just been working
and working and working.
>> It's not just the time
while doing the work. It's in the it's
in the months that follow. It's like
this piece. It's like it's the postflow
state something. We don't have a name
for this.
>> And it's almost like it lowers your
stress threshold. Not it because I agree
with you. If it just raised your stress
threshold,
>> I would have just continued to do
riskier and riskier behaviors. But at
the end, I feel like it lowers it and
just strips away the BS stress and makes
you less likely to invest in those other
potentially nonsense high-risisk
behaviors. I have no ability to describe
it whatsoever. And again, I didn't
realize what that headsp space was
giving me while I was in the military. I
knew something was missing after I had
gotten out. And I think a lot of guys
find themselves in that
>> kind of abyss of how do I replicate
this? Spoiler alert, you can't really.
and they have to deal with that and work
their way through that. And I'm not
recommending that wings suit skydiving
or base jumping is the path for guys
getting out. And I specifically wrote
about this. I've seen people who can do
this in art getting lost in creating
something or yoga or meditation or ice
bath or sauna or I found a lot of it in
the ability to detach and be in the
moment in jiu-jitsu. Even though it's
totally artificial violence, you're in
the moment because it sucks when your
friend chokes you because you want to
choke your friend obviously. But you can
find it. It doesn't have to be
prescriptive. But if you can find your
way there, I don't care that nobody can
describe what it is. I am here to tell
you, it will change your life if you can
find your way into that space. It really
will.
>> There's a wonderful book um in addition
to yours. It turns out there's another
great book out there. Um how dare no
audio version, but it's called The
Secret Pulse of Time, and it's about
time perception. And so the idea that
comes to mind that maybe we could talk
about is perhaps these endeavors,
whether that's wing suiting or producing
an album or painting or gardening or
whatever it is, jiu-jitsu, whatever it
is that somebody does to access this
flow state and get this gets this long
tale of postflow benefit. Whatever we
whatever that is, we don't have a name
for it. Again, it seems to calibrate our
time perception is one idea
>> that perhaps brings us so much into each
moment that it's almost like our ability
to capture moments that becomes high
fidelity. Again, you talked about
getting the static out. Yeah.
>> Right. And then when we go back into
everyday life, it's almost like we're
perfectly calibrated. There's I'm
stating a theory here. So now you wake
up the next morning, you're home, and
your kid comes in and they're talking
about something and you're thinking, and
we'll get back to toilet paper in a
little bit. And you be like, "Listen,
dude, you're talking about this, but you
didn't take [laughter] care of the
toilet paper. This will become relevant
in a moment." If you read Andy's, I've
never thought so much about toilet paper
rolls in the bathroom and how they're
stacked. My girlfriend and I had a
conversation about it the other day
because of Andy's, but that will all
make sense in a few moments. But it's
almost like you can still be in that
real world stuff, but your time
perception is adjusted so that you know
what you're doing. It's just that thing.
So then when you pivot to the next
thing, you need to sit down and do some
work. It's almost like you can adjust
your uh your your frame rate
appropriately.
>> It's like it pulls you into that. allows
you to sink into those things
>> and digest better, to think better.
>> The yeah, the clarity of thought was
just
>> and it would change how I thought about
an argument or a conversation and it
would allow me to look at it from a
different perspective. And I have no
idea why that was the case, but I agree
with what you're saying. I think there
might be some aspect of that, the
fidelity and the ability to truly see
clearly in that moment pulling you and
anchoring you into that. There's
something there. I don't know.
>> A really cool paper uh came out just the
other day showing that when we're
stressed
prior memories, while we can still
access them, we can't make um insightful
connections between things. And I won't
describe the whole experiment. It was
really cool. They basically have people
reme remember pairs of of objects and
then there's some link between the two
pairs. So like it would be like apple
yerba mate and there'll be yerba mate uh
wings suit and then some point later you
need to link you know the wings suit to
the apple right you know it conceptually
not just that way they built up from
basic things like I just described and
as you ramp up people's levels of stress
>> you essentially lose the ability to make
these um connected insights and this
speaks to the the hard wiring and the
software that the brain uses I almost
wonder whether or not your stress
threshold as you said is brought down so
that you can now have novel insights
like Oh, this conversation with my son
about the toilet paper is actually
important [clears throat] in a way that
isn't just me being annoyed and and I
feel like maybe maybe it be fun to
explore this as the science evolves with
you you you know and and talk about it
more because I think the reason I'm so
obsessed with this is for two reasons.
One is navigating everyday life which is
a lot. That's a lot of what people are
challenged with. It's so vital. The
other is how to navigate the hard stuff
in life. So, I want to get to both of
those things and talk about some
examples from your life and from your
book. But before we do that, I feel like
we're obligated to talk about toilet
paper. The number [clears throat] of
pictures I have received via email of
people taking pictures of their kids'
bathrooms
and and basically saying I thought I was
the only one. [laughter]
Okay.
All right. This is really seeming like
an inside joke now for those that read
Andies what you got. All right. We will
get back to time perception, navigating
the the everyday and the hard things in
life. I won't forget. We'll spin that
plate in the background. It's spinning.
>> The toilet paper section. Yes, it made
me laugh. It also made me think about
the little things I do each day and the
little tiny itty bitty shortcuts that
I'm taking and how those ratchet up. So,
tell us about toilet paper.
>> It always takes longer to do it wrong is
the bottom line. And we all are tempted
with these shortcuts. So,
>> that's the mantra we have to remember.
my children, their bathroom, if there
was going to be an Ebola outbreak in the
US, it might start there. I don't know
anything about Ebola, but I feel like it
might start there. So, as with most
bathrooms, there's toilet paper rolls.
And my kids, when they finish a toilet
paper roll, instead of popping it off
the holder, taking it, and going and
getting a new one, they go get a new
one, and they sit it right there. So,
it's like
empty toilet paper roll up against the
wall.
You would think that when this one is
done, they would take them both, but
instead they do this. So, there's two
against the wall and then the other roll
goes here. Now, I can't use this one cuz
this is open. But when this role is
done, you would think that they wouldn't
create a pyramid, which historically,
from my understanding of math, isn't
great to balance things on, but they
will make a pyramid and then put this up
here. And inevitably, this roll goes
forward, hits the ground behind the
toilet, and then they start screaming
from the bathroom, "I need toilet paper,
Dad." To which I respond, you got
yourself there. You can figure it out on
your own.
>> This is all of your kids.
>> Yeah, for sure.
>> Okay.
>> Yeah. And they're all your kids.
>> Yeah.
>> All right. I'm not I'm not really saying
anything that I'm just saying.
[laughter]
>> I'm just And so the point in all of this
is if you don't want to be somebody
screaming for a toilet paper roll, it
actually takes less time to go and when
you're out of toilet paper, disconnect
it, throw it away on the way, and bring
another one in. It's the same thing as
laundry. Do your laundry.
I'm not perfect at this by any stretch,
but do your laundry, fold your laundry,
put it away. That always takes less time
than do your laundry in a pile. Then
you're in a pinch and you're looking for
your t-shirt, whatever shirt you want to
wear.
>> And I own a lot of black clothing.
>> Oh my god, I do too. It's all blues,
blacks, and an occasional red. The red
ones are easy to find in that particular
cohort. But otherwise, you're in there
and it's stuff's inside out, so you
don't know if it's got the right logo.
There's socks coming out of the sleeves.
five excellent amount of time that would
take you as opposed to just wash your
laundry, dry it, fold it, put it away.
I have tried to express this message to
my children to the limits of my
vocabulary. I went into my daughter's
bathroom before we came up here. There
was three rolls of toilet paper. Two of
them were empty and wedged on the side
and the third one was vertical. And I
just closed the door and walked away.
Pretend like it didn't happen. They
don't they don't listen to me. It always
takes longer to do it wrong. And those
are the little shortcuts that we all
take. We tell ourselves,
>> I'll do it later or I I I don't have
time to do it right now. We all have the
same amount of time. It's where you're
allocating your time. Do it upfront. And
I assure you, like the McCraven speech
about making your bed, the number of
parents that probably thought that was
life-changing was just amazing. Like,
yes, somebody else is telling my kid to
make the bed. It's not actually about
that. It's about having the discipline
to do the little things. And it is way
better at the end of the night when
you're tired to come back to a bed that
is made and ready for you to hop into
than having to, and not most people
would do this, but make it first and
then get into it. But it just gets worse
and worse and worse. And in the end, it
will take you longer to correct for that
than the individual action of just doing
it right the first time. What's your
advice with respect to this?
[sighs]
>> I mean, I can give you the advice, but I
also don't follow it all the time
either. Every every single decision that
you have in front of you in your life
will have a slightly easier and a
slightly harder choice. Make the
slightly harder one more often than the
slightly easier one. And the thing I
liked a lot about McCraven's messaging
around the bed is that it started your
day with an act a small act of
discipline that could seem meaningless,
but then what if you pair another small
one with that and then another small one
with that? I think that can really set
you up for success in your day. And yes,
at the end of the day, boom, your bed's
ready to go and you can hop back into
it. just feels better to get into a main
bed.
>> It took me a while to realize that most
of the people that I could tell were
really squared away in their jobs and
because I happen to know their personal
lives too. Also, their personal lives,
they're pretty tidy people.
>> Yeah.
>> Uh whether by sheer will or by reflex,
they're just pretty tidy.
>> I don't think it's ever by reflex. I
think it's always by always by will.
>> And it's not fun. And I'm, don't get me
wrong, I'm not I'm not perfect at it.
But if I can look back at my lives or my
life at times where things were
a little bit less effort involved in and
being successful or making traction, it
wasn't in chaos. It was in a little bit
more of a controlled environment by me
again controlling what I can control,
which is my actions in the morning. You
know it if you sit down in front of a
desk and you can't even find the thing
that you're looking for to do the work
on it. How I don't know anybody who has
become ultra successful in life with
that model. But I think we could both
sit down and talk about some people who
are nailing it. And I think the vast
majority of them would fall into that
tidy category or disciplined category.
But it's micro discipline that can make
it seem as if you have this macro
discipline, but that's not actually what
it is. It's the little things that
nobody sees. That's what leads you to
that end state. It's interesting earlier
we were talking about social pressure
and um alcohol and social media. You
know, it's interesting to me that there
seems to be some degree of social
pressure to not do the slightly harder
thing. You know, [snorts] like what what
we're describing now. I I never get into
uh thinking about what the comments
would be, but I I'd be willing to bet
one pinky that a fair number of people
are either thinking or commenting
directly. Yeah. Like that's really
neurotic. Like, loosen up.
>> Yeah. Take a picture of your [ __ ]
room and send it to me. It looks like
[ __ ] [laughter]
>> Exactly. My dad's first generation
immigrant from South America and I'll
never forget when uh in it was in the
mid '9s.
He probably took me to a movie in an
attempt to repair our relationship and
eventually it worked. Dad, we're doing
great. [laughter] Talk to him today. I
called him today. We're on such good
terms, it feels good to be able to say
it. And I'll never forget, we were at
the movies and there were these people
walking by and they were wearing kind of
like um baggy sweats and flip-flops or
something and he stopped me and he's a
very orderly guy and he said, "See that?
That's the beginning of the end." And I
said, "What do you mean?" [laughter] and
he said, "I come from a third world
country. When people start going into
the movies in their pajamas, it's the
beginning of the end." And I thought,
"Okay, this is like you couldn't be more
out." He's I I actually think he's
right. What he was talking about is that
the the when the social pressure is not
sufficient to like keep people feeling
as if they need to show up as if they're
in public. Yeah. Right. and he might
have been a bit extreme, but you know
when when that social pressure isn't
there, then the social pressure
eventually erodess around what people
can say, what they can do. And then I do
think that era of kind Jerry Springer
daytime television where people would
watch people who were way more screwed
up than them so they could feel a lot
less screwed up.
>> What's it called? Shouting fruit when
you take pleasure in other people's
pain.
>> Yeah. Well, I think that there's that's
that's the word for it for sure. But I
think this is kind of adjacent to that
where it's it's like giving yourself
license to not feel that bad because
like like either they're just so
neurotic that I don't want anything to
do with that kind of world where
everything's right angles or like well
at least I'm not in total squalor. And
this is where I think that you know we
hear so much about oh everyone's
presenting them bestel the their best
selves on social media. Also a problem
to seem perfect because no one's
perfect. But I do think that there is
this drift where we go, well, like it's
not going to crush my life with a toilet
paper thing. Like if it were going to
cost me my relationship or, you know, my
allowance, you know, you guys might
think about it differently, right? Yeah.
But so I think but what I got from your
book, this this section of your book is
that it's because the consequences are
so small
>> at the individual level, but the upside
is so big.
>> Yes. when you, you know, collect these
things together that the real incentive
to do the slightly harder thing is
there.
>> I mean, the toilet paper is not going to
cost you your life. If it does, I'm
going to need a case study on how that
happened cuz I'm fascinated at this
point. But what if it the we'll call it
what it is, either the lack of
discipline or the laziness in the moment
changes the trajectory of your life
because you apply that to everything in
your life because that's how you start
your day and how you end your day. I get
it, people.
I could I'll take a picture of my room
and send it out. Guess what? It's not
hospital corners on the bed and there's
probably something in the corner. I'm
not saying that I'm perfect in this, but
it's not being neurotic.
It's doing the work that nobody sees.
And for the people who com, you know,
say, "Oh, that's, you know, that seems
too neurotic for me." Like, let's let's
have a cup of coffee. Where do you want
to be in your life? And where are you at
in that journey? I would I'm fascinated
by and then like we were saying
internet's the best worst thing people
can find this conversation and then
critique us to death and say that we're
being neurotic but I'd also love to
connect with somebody and say listen why
do you have your an allergic reaction to
that particular statement is it because
perhaps you're living it and if you are
let's talk about the potential impact
that it's having because again I didn't
create this I'm passing along you know
one of the mantras in the games. How you
do anything is how you do everything
there. There's so many stupid small
things that you do specifically in
training that have nothing to do with
anything except doing the stupid small
thing. That's that's it. I mean, you
know, this the uh two mile swim, you
have a KBAR knife in one of your hands
and a CO2 cartridge in another and
you're wearing your life jacket and
we're like got a jeweler's loop out
looking at the, you know, the little uh
twistin section of the CO2 cartridge.
God help you if I find a grain of sand
or a fleck of rust. Guess what? the
jacket's still going to function even if
both of those things still exist because
it actually has nothing to do with the
knurling of the CO2 cartridge and
everything to do with I told you to have
nothing in this to make sure it was
basically brand new because you have to
follow the procedure because the
procedure is what's going to save your
life. Can you even when you're exhausted
and you don't want to and you have
limited time do what I told you to do
because of the impact that it'll have. I
mean that exists in that community
everywhere. So it's not me. I'm just
telling you the most successful people
that I have encountered are not becoming
successful in chaos. Now of course there
will be an uh somebody that can point to
something and say well what about this
person? I'm not saying that there's not
a what do they call it? A white elephant
or a black elephant whatever it may be.
Does that scale? No it doesn't. So, if
you're trying to replicate that, oh,
they did it through chaos, so I'm going
to as well. Live your life however you
want to, but maybe you and I aren't
being neurotic. Maybe we're just trying
to help. Yeah. Uh, you said even when
exhausted and limited uh in time, those
are the two times when these little I
guess I used to think about them as
extras. I'm trying to start thinking
about them as foundational. That's when
they become really tough. It's when they
matter the most though
>> because if you I mean [laughter]
it's like this toilet paper roll weighs
2,000 lbs. There's no way I can get it
to the garbage or this tire. That's
exactly like the days you don't want to
work out. Those are the most important
days. Even if you do less, the mental
victory there in my mind at least, and
I'm not an expert in any of this, far
outweighs any of the physical aspect.
It's the fact that you did and you
didn't want to. If you stack that up
over a lifetime, you're going to blow
people away with what you can can
accomplish.
>> Yeah. And the uh generalizability of
what you just described is definitely
supported by science. People have
perhaps heard me say this before, so
I'll make it very brief, but there's
this brain area, the anterior midsulate
cortex, which most neuroscientists that
teach neuro anatomy, including me,
didn't know what it did until a few
years ago. And a guy at Stanford, Joe
Parveves, he's a neurosurgeon. He was
stimulating this brain area and regions
adjacent to it looking for epileptic
fosi in a patient. That's how they find
out where the where to burn out the
seizure site and he's stimulating in the
singulate cortex and then he gets to
this anterior mids singlet cortex and in
every patient where he taps this region
electrically the person feels and
reports I feel like there's a storm
coming and I want to lean into it. I
know I can go through it. Someone else
might describe it as I feel like there's
this like big thing about to happen but
I I'm going to persevere. So it's
[clears throat] amazing right? So this
anterior mids singulate cortex turns out
hypertrophies well it grows in volume
per maybe in number of connections etc a
number of neurons maybe but certainly
grows in volume when people successfully
diet when they take their existing
exercise program and just add three 30
minute uh sessions of cardio. But here's
the caveat. if they hate cardio.
[laughter] If you love the ice bath,
this your anterior mid singular cortex,
which by the way predicts successful
dieting, predicts successful completion
of any of other hard things.
>> All of that relates to whether or not
the thing that you're introducing is
something that you do not want to do in
the moment that you do it. And so
there's real science to this. Now,
there's a long review that I can put a
link to in the in the caption if people
want to get into the science. So this is
in human studies and it goes just on and
on. So it's not the thing, it's the
thing you don't want to do.
>> Yeah.
>> And so when people say, "I love working
out and the final two reps of that set
that teaches me how to be hard in life."
You're like, "Do you like working out?"
They're like, "Love it." And you're
like, "Ah, it's not doing anything for
your internal singular cortex." So I
think this is very important science,
which is why I keep bringing it up on
multiple podcasts. And and I think the
toilet paper roll. So your kids have
this amazing opportunity.
>> Uh other people have to uh
>> I don't know, do whatever. Um you know,
they seem like very uh hard driving
kids. um the way you describe them.
Anyway, so it turns out that for them
the the the toilet paper thing and no uh
your dad didn't pay me to say this, the
toilet paper thing turns out to be the
the route to anterior midsulate cortex
growth which then translates to by the
way growth of this structure is the
defining feature of what are called
superagers. bit of a misnomer because
these are people who maintain cognitive
ability and many of their physical
abilities relative to their peers into
their 80s and 90s.
>> That makes sense.
>> It's so it may even be related to the
will to live. It may be that the
tenacity structure in the brain which
people who successfully push back
against certain you know life
confrontations and things and on and on.
So it's it's pretty cool structure and
it may be the basis of the toilet paper
phenomenon. It's same thing as putting
your dishes in the dishwasher when
you're done as opposed to just dropping
them in the sink for the next morning.
The examples are everywhere. Not that
that would ever happen in our house, but
[laughter]
uh we're going to get back to the time
perception piece, but um you've
mentioned jiu-jitsu a few times. Yeah.
>> What's an aspect of jiu-jitsu that for
you is this thing, this friction point
where you actually don't want to do or
do you just love the whole thing?
>> What I love about jiu-jitsu is it can't
be mastered. There's no way. I and I
have been very fortunate enough now to
train with people or be around them that
have been black belts for damn near as
long as I have been alive. And I love
asking them, you know, what do they like
about it? And it's these seasons and
phases where
they think they have it figured out and
then they see something else and their
realization is they haven't even begun
to understand. And so they build back up
and something again and they the more
experience these people have, the less
they think it have that they have it all
figured out. And I I don't know what the
key to aging is, but I love doing things
that seem as if it is impossible to
master them.
>> I think that's the key to staying at
least mentally as young as possible,
constantly learning new stuff. I would
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>> I seem to be referencing your book a
lot, but there's a great story in your
book about um some intestinal distress
that that is not uh
>> Is that what we're calling it?
>> Yeah. that is not of the just the the
diarrhea constipation type, but but like
you described it as the worst pain
>> Yeah.
>> you'd ever experienced, which when most
people hear a statement like that, they
go, "Okay, well, what pain have you
experienced?" Well, turns out you also
been shot.
>> Um, turns out, uh, you were, you know,
your job selection process involved a
fair amount of immediate and long-term
pain processes under, you know, uh,
limited sleep and so on. So we we can
check the box easily for you like
understands pain and then this was the
worst pain. What do you think about this
notion maybe I heard this from Chad
Wright that when you vocalize about how
hard something is that you make it more
real? I was wondering if in that moment
where you're in the hospital I don't
want to give it all away. It's it's a
great chapter actually uh and you're
dealing with this worst pain of your
life not from being shot but from the
other thing that were you just cursing?
Were you quietly cursing in your head?
Do you think that we can make our
physical pain and just challenges in
general worse by talking about them or
do you think holding it in makes it
worse?
>> I don't think you could make it worse
by talking about it. I think if people
were open and honest about let's just
say pain in general, whether that is
internal or external, I think what they
would be shocked to find is they're
generally surrounded by people willing
to do anything they can to help relieve
that pain. So I think you could probably
make it much better.
For anybody who thinks that I might have
stuff figured out or I'm an intelligent
person, here's a story for you. Here's
how stupid I am. So, I was doing a
podcast when I felt the first little
shift in my stomach. I took a sip of
coffee. I was like, "Huh, [laughter]
that's weird." And I thought it was a
gas bubble. My wife was teaching a
jiu-jitsu seminar at the time. We were
just south of Salt Lake City. So, I got
done with that. I couldn't
[clears throat] really stand up
straight, but it was the open mat
portion. So, I throw the ghee on, go
roll for 90 minutes. Couldn't definitely
could not stand up straight after that.
So, I was just slouching in a chair, you
know, to try to hide it from my wife who
had at that point started looking over
at me. And she was like, "What's going
on?" I'm like, "God, I just got a
stomach ache. It's not that big of a
deal." And we were going to drive from
Salt Lake City back to uh Callispel,
Montana, where I live, which should take
a day.
and she was saying, "Hey, let's get you
some like, you know, gas medicine or
something like that." And she wanted to
go to In-N-Out. We don't have any
In-N-Outs in Montana. For people who
live around In-N-Outs, I'm here to tell
you it's a really big thing to people
who don't live around them. I don't know
why I was
>> That's pretty darn good.
>> Yeah, I'm I was raised by them or around
them. So, to me, not that big of a deal.
I'll grab them when I can, but also not
going to totally detour off to go get
one. So, she goes and gets her, you
know, double double, whatever it is.
Pulls into the Walgreens. I'm in the
passenger seat at this point. She, first
off, she tricks me. I drove her to the
In-N-Out. She's like, "Just let me
drive." I'm like, "Fine." We get to the
Walgreens.
I'm in a good amount of pain at this
point. She goes inside to get gas sex
pills or whatever. She comes out. I am
upside down in my seat trying to relieve
the gas bubble cuz that's what I thought
it was. So, my head was down by where
you keep your feet. I didn't let her
know I was. So, she comes back into the
car. I was like, "What are you doing?"
Just fully inverted in the car. Like,
I'm fine. just, you know, I was just
trying to see if I could get the gas
bubble to dislodge. And she asked me,
"What do you want to do? Do you need to
go to the hospital?" I'm like, "I think
we're going to be okay. Just start
driving home. We'll be going through
Salt Lake, so we'll get to a higher
level of care if it gets worse." She got
onto the phone, Google the nearest
hospital, and drove me straight there.
So, that's how smart I am when it comes
to pain. I wasn't verbalizing how bad it
was, and it wasn't it was incrementally
getting worse, but that's an example of
a I 100% don't have anything figured
out. That's how dumb I am. And B,
keeping it to myself didn't help much,
but she knew me well enough that it was
time to go. I was able to walk into the
emergency room and then I ended up
laying on the emergency room floor
mostly cuz it was cool and I I was
starting to sweat at that point. They
bring me in and uh did a bunch of
imaging. I had an intestinal blockage
which required emergency surgery. the
next day. The most painful portion of
that though was
about 6 hours when they gave me this
fluid that you drink to constrict all of
your intestines that they generally give
to elderly people who haven't [ __ ] in
weeks. So, what I ended up having is I
had a loop of scar tissue on the inside
wall of my stomach that a piece of
intestines had gone through and it
cinched. M. So that particular red juice
of death was the single most consistent
pain that I have ever been in. Athletic
sweat through all my clothing. Uh my
sister and I have a genetic blood
abnormality where I don't process
opiates the same way as people do. So
morphine to me doesn't even do anything.
I did not know that until I got to the
emergency room in Baghdad after being
shot. And I kept asking for more
morphine and the guy pulled out a chart
and said, "This [clears throat] is what
you weigh. This is your dosage. You are
now at the threshold. If we give you
more, your heart's going to stop. So
they stopped the morphine, put me on
delotted, barely touching the pain at
the maximum dosage of delotted, but that
was
the worst pain I've ever been in. And
it's funny that you ask about talking
about it or not. My sister is a nurse.
She's been in healthcare for quite some
time. and they had just gone on vacation
and my wife wanted to get a hold of them
and I'm like whatever you do not call
them and ruin their vacation. What she
was trying to do was understand what she
needed to say to the staff so she could
talk to them in their language because
the dosages they were get it just wasn't
doing anything. And I think to a degree
they thought I was uh like seeking meds
even though I think the athletic sweat
might have been a little bit of a tell
the fact that I'm like riding and the
doctor's coming. I'm like I don't care
what it is. Cut it out right now. We can
just do surgery. He's like oh we got to
do imagery and you got to do paperwork.
I'm like sign my name that like let's
just do the uh knock me out and cut this
out of my body right now. I don't even
care what's left. But I didn't even want
to share that with my sister because I
didn't want to ruin her experience with
her family in another country. And that
didn't make anything better. Shortly
after that, right after I told my wife
not to call her, she went outside and
called her. And then I got switched over
to the ICU where they hit me with
ketamine and that did the trick almost
to the point where and I almost they
almost pushed me into the Khole and I
didn't like that at all. I could hear
the uh hairs on the inside of my ears
starting to move around and it was a
dead quiet room and I remember saying to
my wife,
>> "Can you hear it? It's so loud in here."
And she's like, "It is completely and
utterly silent right at the lip." To the
point where I told the doctor, "Please,
no more ketamine regardless of what it
takes." But then they went and did the
surgery.
All of that to say,
the more open and honest I was, the
better it got. in the time where I was
trying to not share that or not talk
about the pain, it was still just as
real for me, but there was no benefit in
being quiet like that. And I think that
that's something that people can in my
life and I'm not sure yours.
Every time I verbalized pain or grief or
struggle surrounded by people willing to
help out, why not talk about it? What's
the potential downside if you look at it
purely from a physical perspective was
me suffering for a few more hours
because I'm an idiot. [laughter]
>> Well, I totally agree that when it's
real pain, it's important to share.
Also, uh God bless your your wife for
not listening to you around this
particular issue.
>> She's got me figured out. It's
everything up to a point she's like,
"Nope, I'm we're going to we're going to
go ahead and take the wheel from here."
>> Yeah. [laughter] Well, it's like I in uh
uh before we came in here, we were
talking about dogs. Uh we'll get back,
but you know, having owned a bulldog
mastiff, you realize that they hide
their pain. Like he, you know, ran out
two uh you know, two they don't have
knees, right? But he ran out two ACLs,
right? I mean, he was his own worst
enemy, but he would never quit on me
either. So, it's like you kind of have
to [clears throat] know that about
bulldogs, right? So, there's enough uh
bulldog in you. Uh you have a dashund.
Yes. A wiener dog. I know that they're
very very smart and they're kind of
mischievous. Yeah.
>> Right. But they're loyal. They um incred
you are either one of their people or
you're one of their enemies.
>> Is that you?
>> I'm his probably his favorite person.
>> No, I meant is that your your phenotype,
too? Is that your either one of my
people or you're one of my enemies?
>> I don't think so.
>> Okay. Yeah. You don't strike me that
way.
>> I am inherently distrustful of human
beings just based off my own personal
experience.
>> All human beings.
>> Not all human beings. Well, yes, the
species, but not every person that I
that I meet. I am just aware
>> that there is a subsection of who we are
>> that is out there that ticks in the
completely opposite manner with which I
do. And I'm not to say here to say
that's right or wrong, but I've seen it
enough with my own eyes that I can never
forget that
>> you're talking about from your time on
deployments.
>> Yeah. Yeah. just seeing beliefs and
ideologies that are completely at odds
with what my beliefs and ideologies are.
And sorry for anybody listening to this.
Whatever your belief and ideology is,
there is an axis out there that feels
that way. That's just the way that it
is. It doesn't mean you should distrust
everybody. I just remind myself that
human beings are really capable of some
gnarly stuff. But I also don't walk
around
snapjudging everybody. I try to enjoy my
life just like everybody else does. But
yeah, for that dog it's uh you can go
from being one of his enemies to one of
his friends though if you have enough
treats and spend enough time around him.
Then he gets super excited when he sees
you. But they're amazing dogs.
>> Yeah. I love dashins. I I don't know
that I have the uh the tenacity to own
one. But I mean because bulldogs are
stubborn.
>> Yeah.
>> But they're so food driven and they're
not that smart. [laughter]
tell them that
>> I've had a bulldog long enough and now a
second one to know that they're um and
it's part of what makes them great.
>> They they don't do advanced math on on
their life experience. They're doing
basic addition
>> and sleeping.
>> We have
>> They'll die for you.
>> Yeah.
>> But if your life isn't on the line,
they're not doing [ __ ] at all. That's
kind of like the bulldog.
>> Our dog does puzzles.
>> Yeah. So, right. That's what I'm talking
about. Yeah. And like we have an outside
fetch ball that I thought didn't fit
through the doggy door. Was in the house
the other day. What's going on?
>> Right. [laughter] Right. Totally same
same species, all completely different
brain structures,
>> man. Well, and they were bred to be
independent because they were bred to be
down in little tunnels going for I tell
people they were bred to fight lions.
Nobody seems to believe me. I'm also not
sure that that's true, but you
>> need 75 of them.
>> Yeah, like rats. Yeah, that's that's
what I tell people. They hunt in packs.
Obviously, I would be terrified of 75
wiener dogs chasing me down.
>> Absolutely. [laughter] They're down down
in tunnels. And that's also why they
bark so much and why their bark is so
loud. It's so it's their handlers can
track them as they went. So, a lot of
that stuff makes sense, not necessarily
in an urban setting, but you know, it's
fun to deal with. Your dog needs to do
puzzles or he'll drive you crazy.
>> Man, we could go down the the the
conceptual uh rabbit hole of uh of dog
breeds, but we won't because we left an
important plate spinning that I want to
return to. What do we leave?
>> This notion of time perception to
navigate everyday life more effectively
and time perception
uh to navigate the real really hard
stuff. Your community by virtue of the
work that you guys did and do loses a
lot of people relative to other
professions. There's a there's a high
fatality rate relative to other
professions. But in the larger outside
world now, uh you know, we are seeing
much more suicide. Let's just be real
blunt.
>> Yeah.
>> Walking in here today, we were talking
to one of our team members here, not
SEAL team members, but editors, you
know, somebody uh a real um
a real luminary in the the the
skateboarding world. you know, cause of
death still unclear, but you know, like
there's yet another example of somebody
highly accomplished,
family, etc. I have a colleague who
recently um sadly took his own life.
Like this just happens across domains,
right? And it's not just men, it's
women, too, but it does seem to be
higher among men these days. You know,
it raises some really complicated but I
think important questions around
what is going through people's minds
that would lead them them to think that
it was or should be the end of the line
for them for themselves goes against
every bit of adaptive evolutionary
biology. It goes against all religious
doctrine in terms of what's adaptive.
So, you know, there's no straightforward
answer to this, but earlier we were
talking about before we were recording,
perhaps people get into a tunnel of the
idea that the way they feel in a given
moment is the way it's going to be
forever. So, two guys sitting here who
are not in that state to yeah
>> kind of wonder about that is uh we can
only speculate,
>> but what do you think based on what
you've observed and you welcome to share
if you like this from your book you talk
about Dave? Yeah.
>> Is there any understanding of of what's
going on for people in the in the days,
weeks, months, moments leading up to uh
those decisions that you know maybe we
can do some good here and help people
identify if they are starting to enter
that it's always going to feel like this
mode.
>> And there have been so many
conversations about this and there are
so many programs that exist to try to
help. I I'll say guys because that's the
community that I came from with this.
The Green Beret community
has now lost more people to suicide than
combat operations since 2001. What?
Yeah. I don't know where the SEAL
community is with that, but I bet you
they're close. The numbers will eclipse
for sure. So, it is an issue, but it it
is an unavoidable issue. Every situation
is different to a degree that they share
some similarities. the so in speaking
specifically of the SEAL teams I mean
there's the biggest similarity right
they came from that community and they
probably had
some semblance of shared experiences
whether that be deployments time away
from family the psychological and
physiological stresses of the job
but it doesn't seem to impact everybody
equally either everybody's experiences
differ you could be in a room I was
going to say with six people but it's
unlikely you'll be in a room with six
people just because uh we don't
generally have that many people and we
try to solve issues with as few as
possible but let's say four. I have no
understanding why
the same shared experience, although
maybe viewed from a slightly different
angle, in totality, could break
somebody, but not the other three, or
why everybody has a different volume of,
you know, somebody's got this much
volume versus this much versus a
thimble. And I don't I don't understand
why
those experiences
seem to break some people or in my
opinion I think they can if you put the
work in make you an even better version
of yourself. And I also think that you
can pour some of the stuff out or drill
a hole in the bottom and work through
these things. Dave being the example
the things that stick out would be and
again this is me. This is me speaking. I
can't speak for Dave.
There was a huge delta, I think, between
how he thought of himself and how other
people thought of him.
And in most of the funerals that I've
gone to that involve suicide, the number
one question is why? Why didn't somebody
reach out for help? or and maybe they
did because you you know you don't I
mean I guess you could look at their
electronic device or maybe it was a face
to face it's hard to say but the
difference in
what Dave left behind he left behind
some journals
and I think that there are
pros and cons
if you are in a place where you have the
opportunity to read somebody what they
have left behind and not you may not
want to know it may make it more
difficult
because I've also seen people attach a
very immense amount of grief because
they either think that what was written
and left behind was specifically about
them or they oh man I was there and I
could have you know the could have would
have should have which is all
hypothetical and doesn't change the fact
that it already happened but I've seen
people deeply deeply struggle with that
so that would be the negative the pro
could be perhaps I don't know closure so
it really depends on the person choose
wisely as somebody who is
experienced that. Um, my experience is
it was a combination of both. I I felt a
deeper level of understanding but also a
deep sense I wish I would have done
more. [snorts]
the internal struggles
and self-t talk and monologue.
I couldn't read it without crying
and I don't think he realized
how highly other people thought of him.
The gap between the two is just
unbelievable. He he and not everybody is
he was isolated at the time. there was
alcohol involved to the best of my
knowledge which unfortunately especially
in the community that I come from those
two things are pretty often tied not
always but often tied alcohol in that
decision as well and the stats are
pretty well back about you know alcohol
being you could speak to this and you
know the [snorts] central nervous system
depressant it's not like yay I'm feeling
the best I've ever felt it generally
will spiral you in the other direction
but when I look at Dave he was and is to
this day what I would consider to be the
standard for a team guy. And what I
loved about him so much is that not only
did he expect that standard from other
people, but he held himself and actually
more than that. I think I would say he
held himself to a higher standard than
he would hold other people to. If you
met his standard, you were going to get
two thumbs up. Probably not a pat on the
back, but you were going to get two
thumbs up and you were going to know you
did a good job. if you did not meet his
standard, which I tested many times, you
were very specifically told where you're
deficient in life and as a human being.
[laughter]
And he, God, he had a tongue like a
whip. He was awesome. And uh
I think at the end, and this is me
speaking for him a little bit, I think
he arrived at a place
where he couldn't live with the reality
that he couldn't hold himself to the
standard that he had expected from other
people. And I think it destroyed him.
But I don't know if he shared that with
anybody. I don't think so. some of the
last people that he spoke with
knew that he was
struggling. For sure. He he had an
alcohol addiction issue for sure. And
for clarity, I mean, that's Dave would
be pissed actually if I didn't mention
that cuz he would never tolerate anybody
else beating around the bush. He
legitimately had an issue with alcohol
as some people do from that community.
They knew that he was struggling. He's
the only guy I know who did multiple
treatments of I have zero experience in
psychedelics, but from listening to
people talk about Iwasa and I gain rides
that don't seem to be a very good time
and often times will instantaneously
change the relationship they have with
substances, whether it's opiates or
alcohol. Not that you would never drink
again, but their their relationship with
it just shifts. They're like, "You know
what? Uh, I don't even have the desire
to do so."
72 hours later, 96 hours later, and it's
not like he just tried once. He would go
back. He would even facilitate
treatment for other [snorts] people,
but it wasn't working for him. But he
wasn't he wasn't sharing that. And that
isolation and loneliness
and that difference between that
standard and what he was able to do
got him to that place where he put a gun
in his mouth, you know, alone, isolated
at his family home in Florida.
And when everybody showed up at the
funeral, it's like,
what could we what could we have done
more? [clears throat] And that happens
at every Nobody's at a funeral say did
everything I could. never have heard
that by the way that just God I nailed
it like really exhibit A would like none
of us nailed it we all [ __ ] up or
did we do the best that we could and
it's something that we can't stop I
don't know I have I've started to have
pretty deep conversations with friends
around from that community around what
can be done I don't think uh an
absolutionist approach is good I think
driving to zero is possible is
impossible because It's a it's a an
affliction that strikes all of humanity.
A reductionist approach, I think, is
helpful, but at this point, I don't know
what else can be done.
I mean millions of dollars advocated
towards these type of programs. things
like Ambio, you know, just south of the
border or what Marcus and Amber
component are doing with vets which are
largely an interface to the and there's
portals and people and I'm on some of
these groups where
even the inkling somebody is in trouble
or you need help like people are they're
trying to get stuff done getting
connected people are getting on
airplanes and I was with mutual friend
DJ I think it was last week and one of
his new guys who had become a team
leader who had gotten out just killed
himself.
and both and we we sit there with faces
like this with things that are un that
we don't know what to say in between us.
I don't know. [sighs] I don't know
what's going on there.
>> Yeah. Well, I certainly don't know
either. I think that um
if we can borrow anything useful from
other areas of
uh mental health and neuroscience
because it I think ultimately this is a
brain issue
>> right I don't think it's like a gut
health issue although that could impact
it right I might be wrong
>> right it could be yeah I mean that it
could be but but I think it's a a
thought process that leads to a decision
that you know and that's in the brain so
if we were to just take like start at
ground truths
>> not to try and make this reduction we'd
say maybe suicidality is not one thing
just like we know that you can get a
fever from a lot of things.
>> I don't want to say no one is immune
because I do think that fortunately it's
you know not everybody but maybe
everyone has the potential to go there
and there's certain buffers that we're
not aware of.
>> You might come out of the box immune to
it but I think either something
psychologically or physiologically could
happen that maybe could open a door that
had started off closed. Mhm.
>> That's a guess.
>> In all these instances that are leaping
to mind of unfortunately real life
suicides, every single one of the people
um was a very high performer at one
point, highly very highly regarded,
revered, etc. And so I I think you've
really um touched on something important
which is that this notion of like it's
lonely at the top that there's it's true
that there's people are busy you know
there's not the general public is not so
concerned about you know winners and
their plight you know but when you hear
about something like this you know um
you realize that it people can be quite
lonely and perhaps as the number of true
peers that somebody has because they're
in a leadership position over already
ultra high performers
the need to impress, the need to not
have their their image shattered is it
goes up and up and up and up. There
might be something there. I think
>> there's certainly important work to be
done, but there aren't real data, I
don't think, on the number of people who
were kind of veering in this direction,
but somebody reached out. Yeah.
>> And then they're 6 months later saying,
"Hey, thanks. You know, I you know, you
really helped me back when and maybe
they weren't right at that edge." Yeah.
>> So, we don't have data on what worked to
keep people away from this edge either.
So, it's a really tough problem, but you
know, tough problems are tractable.
>> Yeah. I worry less about the guys who
are able to verbalize what they're going
through.
It's the ones who are more quiet. You
know, you talk about, you know, lonely
at the top. Dave, I left Dave's military
career largely out of it. He originally
wanted to go to development group and
didn't make it through the screening
process. I think largely more due to a
personality conflict with one of the
instructors, which totally happens. If
you get on somebody's radar, you might
have to come back through. But he ended
up going to another JSOW command that
works at an incredibly high level, very
less known,
oftent times by yourself in adversarial
countries. And he crushed it there, I
think, for like 10 years. I mean, he's
like
the top performer of performers. And
then they contracted him to come back
and teach guys in their own very long
selection course. What I didn't realize
is how much he was struggling
just holding up that image. Though a
part of their selection course occurs
out in Las Vegas.
He had more than one incident where he
thought his career was going to be over
because he went out and got shitfaced
and got arrested.
They work so independently and
individually so often nobody even
realized he had gotten in trouble until
his security clearance came back around
and it popped on his security clearance
which then you know leads to a whole
variety of other things. But that
happened to him while he was active and
then after while he was out. But if you
were look at the guy you mean you'd say
to him how do I match your career
exactly? What exactly are you doing to
be able to do what it is that you're
doing? man, behind the curtain. Holy
[ __ ]
Just suffering.
You could see it in the writing, just in
the
the shape and texture of the words. You
could you could see it degrading towards
the end. It's gnarly.
>> And look, I'm not one of these people
that thinks everyone should just go do I
gain, which is not a recreational
experience, you know? Right. But I was
going to say the fact that he did that
has worked. I'll just say this on I've
said it publicly before, but I'll make
sure I hammer this, you know, straight
in the middle that I've been very
supportive of veteran solutions because
um and the work that was being done at
Stanford to support them. the arc of
both successful escape from addiction
and PTSD or whatever you want to call it
through the proper use of Ibagane
medically supervised
as well as the number of just tragic
instances of people who didn't make it
there happen to know Chad Wilkinson's
wife and talked to Sarah you know and
you know it's a painful thing to be at
these things and hear all these
wonderful stories of people that feel
like they were rescued their spouse was
rescued and then um the spouses that are
there saying, you know, it's grateful
this exists and I'm I'm frustrated that
it wasn't there in time for their spouse
or parent or, you know, or kid. So many
people have benefited, but some people
just seem like they're refractory to it.
Well, hopefully talking about suicide,
frankly, will will um get people
thinking about different avenues around
it. That's the hope.
>> Yeah. I don't know the angle. I mean,
I've tried to focus sometimes on talking
about the impact that it has on those
left behind in the hopes that that
would,
I don't know, buy somebody a 1%
maybe think about that for
[clears throat] 1% and it changes
literally the trajectory of their life.
I don't understand
the choice. I I will describe the choice
of ending your own life as an irrational
decision. That's I can't make any sense
of it other than to say like you said it
goes against every evolutionary
everything that we can understand. So
somehow people are arriving at an
irrational decision and considering it
to be the only rational solution.
Talking about the people that they left
behind and the impact it's going to have
doesn't seem to have impacted it at all.
>> I don't I don't know what the answer is.
many times, you know, if whatever is
left behind or text messages, the
world's better off, you know what I
mean? Better off without me, they feel
I'm not going to say they feel as if
they're doing the world a favor. That's
that's not what I mean to say, but
oftentimes the language is close to
that. Like, I'm doing this because you
will be better off without me. And
again, irrational decision as their only
rational option. I don't I don't know.
I do know that statistically it's way
higher in the occupation that I came
from. What I didn't realize and what
I've started talking with a lot more
about guys I serve with is their time
before the military though.
The trauma in in the military can
certainly be unique, but I tell you
what, the number of guys that I've
talked to now that I didn't have these
conversations with that I when I was in,
they brought a full seabag of trauma
with them before. And if you layer that
on top of everything that happens while
you're in and you don't get a handle on
that, [snorts]
it's gonna get a handle on you. And I
think that's played itself out many
times. A lot of the emphasis is on just
the military aspect. And I'm not saying
that everybody from the military world
came in with the broken, shattered,
fill-in-theblank bucket of trauma, but
there's a lot of them. The more that you
dig into this, and that has to be
addressed as well, too. It makes sense.
If you had a jacked up childhood or you
were bullied, what better job than to be
able to dispatch bullies or those that
are praying upon others? Yeah, that's
exactly what you're going to want to do.
But that doesn't mean that the little
suitcase you brought with you isn't
going to meet you on the tail end of
that journey. Then you pair that with
isolation. A lot of times guys get out,
they'll move, uh, you know, back to
where they came from. So away from their
social circle, the uniform goes up in
the closet.
identity and purpose struggle that we
all have when you go from that
occupation, social isolation, maybe they
bring with them some unhealthy social
habits,
alcohol, whatever else it may be with
them with that isolation, with those
struggles, with that baggage.
It's a lot. Man, you make a very
important point. I think, you know,
perhaps one of the reasons they went
into that profession is they were
traumatized going in. But of course, as
you also pointed out, many guys are not.
They
>> I won the genetic lottery with my
parents that they were spectacular. But
I now
I just I wish I had been mature enough
to sit down with people when I was
younger and be like, "Dude,
like are you okay?
>> What was your what was your background
like coming up?"
>> You know, tell me about your life before
the teams. Cuz nobody ever asked about
your life. They're like, "Where you
from?" Cool. Shut up. Did you make it
with your buds? Great. Go get your [ __ ]
It's time to go do gangster [ __ ] I'm
like, "Okay, cool. Let's go do gangster
shit." It's afterwards where I get to
know these people better at a deeper
level. I'm like, "I'm sorry, what what
situation did you come from?" Dave was a
good example.
>> He brought a lot with him.
Again, that's a data point. I can't
apply that broadly,
>> but in the anecdotal conversations I
have had, it is trending past 50% of the
guys brought a lot of stuff with them.
Yeah. and the um the sort of
hyperproclivity for alcohol might have
been related to that. I mean, we can do
a just so story, but what you're saying,
you know, it it ratchets together in in
a logical way. And of course, everything
we're talking about wicks out to the the
world at large. I mean, checking in on
people is no small thing.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, I I a few years ago, I talked
about how like, you know, this group of
like people were just like check in in
the morning and it seemed people like,
"Oh, well, that's like supposed to be
the health act." It's like, "Oh, no.
There's one guy in my in my crew that
like he's he's like every single morning
if we don't hear from him by 8:00 a.m.
like he's dead, you know, [laughter]
like you know, and then like 8:15, he's
like, "Sorry, I'm late, guys." And, you
know, just by virtue of that group, he
sends he's, you know, he sends around a
little Bible passage sometimes like a
wish for the day for folks. Everyone
checks in. It's like it's a real thing.
Like, it's a real thing. And it's not
just that I would be worried about him.
I honestly I'd be worried about me if if
he didn't send that. Now, is it am I
completely dependent on it? No. But
those small things, back to this notion
of small things, they can really matter.
They can they can really make the
difference. I don't know. my mind goes
to all these places and maybe I've uh
spent uh more than my fair share of time
with uh our mutual friend Eddie Penny
where I I actually think and and forgive
me because I'm a scientist but these
days I talk very openly. I actually
think that evil forces can hijack
people's minds. I know it sounds crazy,
it sounds like conspiracy, but I believe
that inside of our minds we have a
susceptibility to positive messaging and
we have a susceptibility to evil
messaging and it can come in in
different forms. And I think bad forces
can work through us and they tend to
come through the places of shame. They
come through the things that we don't
want to acknowledge. They're like the
way it was described to me by someone
far smarter than me is it's like a
lighthouse that's you know spinning its
um its illumination and then there's
like there's like some like dirt on the
on the lighthouse and it casts this like
shard of a shadow and that's where stuff
comes in and gets us. And if we can kind
of see that stuff and really acknowledge
it, that's kind of what the real trauma
proc trauma healing process is about.
And once you own it, it's very
different. Things can't get to you the
same way. Now, I'm speaking in like
riddles and metaphors here. So, so I
want to be careful because I'm a
scientist. I believe in biology, but I
think that hopefully conversations like
these will start to open up the the
thought and maybe in the dialogue around
this because I think the mental health
community, but really the general public
needs to start thinking about this in a
real way because the numbers, as you
mentioned, the SEAL teams and other
special operations communities are
staggering, but
>> it's growing. I mean, and on and on and
I don't believe anyone is completely
immune just given the the the examples.
These are people who had quote unquote
[clears throat] everything going for
them and then some. So, God willing,
this will have some positive impact. You
know,
>> I think it's important that somebody
like yourself as a scientist is open to
other non-scientific
answers or
possibilities at least because we
clearly don't have [snorts] it figured
all out yet. And I'm not a scientist,
but I'm pretty sure scientists don't
know everything, regardless of how some
of them might like to tell you that they
do.
>> Definitely do not know everything. And
if we don't know everything, maybe let's
just keep it open to possibilities
because in that journey, hopefully one
day we will figure out everything. But
if we lose a bunch of people along the
way because we were unwilling to at
least even table a conversation about
something maybe outside of the science
realm, I don't think it's worth knowing
everything.
>> I think that our we were talking about
dogs before. I think um our species is a
remarkable species technology
development. And I think that we have
incredible capacity for for goodness.
And I think we also should finally
acknowledge after many thousands of
years that we have a hardwired failure
to understand ourselves that the the
answers are just not going to come from
us. This is where I sit now. I don't
want to sound too dogmatic about this.
like it's just obvious like you wouldn't
expect uh 50,000 dashons to come up with
uh well maybe they could come up with a
supercomputer but you know
>> I'm in on this experiment so far. Do you
know anybody who'd be willing to back us
[laughter]
>> in this day and age? I probably do. Um
but it be it's just so you know we we
tend to think that because we are the
curators of the earth. We are the ones
that control the technology. All that is
true that we're sort of above our own
[ __ ] and we're not. No. And so the
big re revelation for me was like, oh
maybe we shouldn't look to ourselves
certainly or even other humans or even
groups of humans or the technologies we
create or that combination for every
answer. I do think gene therapies are
going to cure a lot of diseases. I think
that AI actually has is going to be of
great benefit etc etc. It's got its
issues but we'll navigate that. But when
it comes to how somebody like Dave could
be literally take his own life, I think
the implementation of the solutions will
have to come from humans. But that
really understanding the root of the
problem is not going to come from from a
from a strictly scientific psychological
understanding. This just my belief. I
think that's okay. I think I I like that
type of malleable
willingness to accept other options much
more than I like the dogmatic rigid
you're not going to do anything other
than it's either this way or the
highway. I feel comfortable sharing
this. Let's just say that I knew someone
very well. I still know him.
Fortunately, he's still alive in your
community who was in a really
challenging place. And the only language
I heard someone else speak to him and
fortunately he's still around. They said
something to him to the words of like,
"Your goggles are foggy, so you can't
trust anything you think or see about
yourself for the next six months. You
only can trust these three people."
>> It's not a bad approach.
>> And he said, "Okay."
And he's like, "You cannot do that. It's
it's as if you're you're you're wearing
prism glasses." It's kind of what I
jumped in with. Borrowed that from a
neuroscience experiment.
>> The DUI glasses is a better analogy.
grasping, you're grasping for the mug
here, but it's actually right here. And
if you can just accept the fact that
your your optics are off, your thinking
is off, you cannot trust it.
>> And and the reason that resonated with
me and got me thinking about the other
thing I just said is the I I think that
we all have this innate desire to not be
controlled. And I think that I'm not
gonna do the if only game, could have,
would a, should have, but if people as
as hard driving as like teen guys or
just anybody were told, listen that what
you feel it actually is not coming from
you. You're being controlled that can
set up a resilience. It can I do think
you can trigger that anterior mids
singulate cortex and it's like instead
of [ __ ] me or [ __ ] all them all these
other people it becomes no you can just
start to like you can start to resist
these forces and I I do think there's
something there so I don't think science
alone is going to cure suicidality or
psychology alone I don't think it'll
come in the form of a pill again I think
the implementation will be very much of
the human world but I think that the um
the core understanding about what's
happening in those moments
is going to come from accepting a a
bigger picture. And I think it's obvious
what I'm talking about here. And hey,
why why not?
>> It's a it's a deep topic, man. It's a
tough one. I know everybody wants easy
solutions. I just don't think there is
one on that topic.
>> It's a painful long road.
>> Bringing it to the everyday life.
>> Mhm.
>> I was imagining if I was like a I don't
know 20year-old or 30year-old or 40 or
50y old.
>> Do you ever think you'd be 50? I said,
"Oh, [laughter]
actually no." At my 50th birthday, I was
like Joe Strummer, one of my heroes,
died at 50. My graduate adviser dead at
50. Like a lot of friends, even though I
was in the military, dead early. Like I
felt really lucky to make it to 50. And
uh I feel very excited about what's to
come, but I'm mindful
>> of everything we just talked about.
Yeah. You know, um but no, I never never
did. But the fifth floor is awesome
because Kelly Starret described it to me
best. He he said, "Listen, when you're
in your 40s and you're like in good
shape and your life is together, you're
like, "Yeah, like you're doing okay
relative to your peers." The moment you
hit 50, like you're like, "All right,
I'm doing great." And he said, "But you
have to be very careful because that's
like comparing yourself to people who
are really slacking." So, [laughter] you
got to triple down humor. He goes,
"Don't come off the gas pedal." So,
>> oh, Kelly Sturret.
>> Yeah. I can imagine that many people are
thinking, "Okay, g give me the program."
I know you're anti-hacks. I am, too. But
what would that look like? What can they
do? Start with the bed. So wake wake up
in the morning. Let's let's walk through
it.
>> Yeah, the bed. Do the bed. Don't do the
bed. I would say start as early as you
can with some semblance of a disciplined
act. If you don't want to do the bed,
drink a drink a 16 glass of water in the
morning before you have a cup of coffee.
Not many people enjoy doing that. Uh
especially if it's not flavored with
something. But I tell you what, I
implemented that and it's kind of
amazing how much better you feel when
you hydrate a little bit after you sleep
with your mouth tape, of course, on your
sleep metrics cuz you have to have a
competition with your wife on who's
winning the sleep score. Not a big deal.
And I I hate being prescriptive. And so
just broadly, I tell people to pick the
choice as often as possible that is
slightly more difficult. And the reason
why the bed doesn't work for some people
is that you have somebody you care about
deeply still sleeping on the other side.
And maybe your day starts at a time
where they're not ready to get out of
bed, right? So you don't want to
negatively impact somebody else's life.
So you can have this, I have to do this
to get started. To me, it's the small
stuff that nobody sees that makes the
biggest difference in the world. It's
the choice to have the water before your
coffee. It's the choice to the night
before you go to bed, if you're, you
know, you're going to have a busy day,
meal prep. Or if you're going to have a
breakfast that is other than ready to
eat or complicated, do all the prep work
beforehand so it makes it, you know what
I mean? It's just the small things that
nobody, oh great, post it on Instagram.
Look, I'm cutting up asparagus so I can
put it into my omelette. But in the next
morning when it's ready to go and you
actually have a healthy breakfast over
something far less healthy, the
difference in your life and the
difference in your energy and your
thought process and all those things
continue to build. I try to get people
or advocate sweat or get as close to
sweat as you can once a day. For some
people, that's just getting off the
couch and walking around. And I get it.
I have limited time just like everybody
else does. If I push my physical
exertion until later in the day, I am
far more likely to push it off until the
next day. So, I try to bring it a little
bit earlier into my day. The jiu-jitsu
training for me usually occurs around
midday. So, that's a nice setup. And
that's based off a class schedule, not
my own creation.
>> Are you working out early day as well?
Uh, I will either do jiu-jitsu or
workout. I generally don't do both. Um,
as I am getting older as well. I see the
utility in both and the lack of utility
in doing both very hard in the same day
because man, you can augur yourself in
with a little bit too much. So, I'll do
one or the other. But also, sweat could
be and again this I mean they can get as
far out there as you want. It could be
sitting in a sauna for 30 minutes if
that's all you got and you don't you
know what I mean? Figure it out. which
in your case is an ice bath. [laughter]
>> Well, I'm just using 80. Yeah.
>> Set a sauna to 105, which is the perfect
temperature for a sauna. Easy. I mean,
you could put one in the other. You
could
>> ice bath and sauna. How much research
has been done on that, Andrew? Not
enough. You know,
>> we could create the world's first ice
bath sauna.
>> I don't think it's going to sell.
>> Call the stump.
>> It's not going to sell. [laughter]
>> It's not going to sell.
>> Yeah. It would just be at 90° for both
of them, which I think actually would be
perfect and delightful. Everybody knows
the harder choice versus the easier
choice. Everybody
to include myself will look externally
and say what do I need to do? I know
what I need to do and so do they. They
need to do the thing then even if it's
microscopic that they want to do less
more often than they do the thing that
they want to do more. the and I know
that's broad and I know people want more
of a prescription than that, but that
over time is the juice.
>> What I like about it so much is that it
it transcends circumstances and it
transcends the kind of moment to moment.
So there's always an opportunity to do
something slightly harder and then you
find yourself in that friction point,
that laziness point of like, I'll do
this later or, you know, like leave that
dish in the sink and you know
>> how many times you realize, oh [ __ ] I
got to go. You got a coffee cup in your
hand.
>> Finish it off and the sink's right there
and so is the dishwasher. This is a
perfect example. Easy one. Put it in the
sink, which you have to deal with later.
Crack the dishwasher opener, put the
thing in there, close it up, and be on
your way. That is an example to me of a
small victory. That's making the
slightly harder choice. Is that in and
of itself going to change your life? No.
But what if you make that choice a
hundred times in your day? You're
telling me it's going to look the same
as it did yesterday? No way in hell. No
way in hell. Pair that out over a week,
over a month, over a year. Your life's
not going to look the same. Yeah. I
think the the social pressure to
not do that stuff is the new
counteracting pressure and the draw to
to the phone and all these things. But
look, it's just all more opportunities
to grow your anterior mid singulate
cortex size uh
>> without somebody sticking, I'm assuming,
a thing in your head. That doesn't sound
fun.
>> Yeah. The funny thing about
neurosurgeons is they'll tell you, well,
listen, after we make the little hole in
your skull, they literally say this. One
of my best friends from childhood is a
chair of neurosurgery at UCSF and he'll
tell you, look, you know, yeah, we make
the hole like we do the thing, but then
we put a titanium plate in there
afterwards and that's actually better
than a skull cuz it can protect your
brain even better.
>> Maybe on that one little tiny area.
People actually, if you look this up,
there people who have, you know, these
big pieces of titanium plate. Anyway,
fortunately,
>> the wing suiting thing, you close shop
with that early enough that you don't
need those things. Which brings me to
kind of the the uh final question,
although there might be one more. What
are you super excited about these days?
So, of all the things I do now, and for
people who are unfamiliar with me, I own
a coffee shop. Um,
>> Black Rifle.
>> Black I own a Black Rifle coffee shop in
Callispel, Montana. Uh, very good
friends with the founder. He allowed me
to open up the first one in Montana. Uh,
host a podcast. I travel the world with
my wife. She's coaching. I do not coach
jiu-jitsu. I participate in jiu-jitsu.
Please don't ask me for jiu-jitsu advice
because I'm going to tell you I'm not a
coach. Go talk to somebody who does this
profession.
>> You roll with her.
>> Yes. If you can beat your spouse, don't.
That's going to save people a lot of
pain and suffering right there. It's not
worth it. I have beat my wife one time.
And for clarity before somebody clips
this, I am talking in the context of a
jiu-jitsu. [laughter]
>> As that was coming out, I'm like, "Oh
no."
>> In a jujitsu, consensual jiu-jitsu
exchange, I have submitted my wife one
time.
in
the visual of our eye contact. I should
have realized before finishing the
submission what the potential long-term
consequences would be. I did not. And uh
let me be the test subject for anybody
else out there who trains with their
significant other. Just drill. Just
drill. Let them assume a dominant
position. And if they beat you, great.
Take my advice for that. So, jiu-jitsu,
coffee, podcast, I guess I can say I'm
an author now. I have no plans for a
second book. I had no plans for a first
book, but here we are. All of those
things, if you had given me an unlimited
amount of time for a month when I was
getting out of the SEAL teams and had
said, "Here's
bunch of legal paperwork, like legal
notebooks and a pen, as many as you
want. Write down anything that you think
you could possibly be doing when you get
out. Not a single thing that I am doing
right now would have been on that list.
Couldn't even have fathomed it. I worked
for a strength and conditioning company
for a while. In doing that, I started
being the pilot for the owner of that
company, which led me to doing part 135
charter operations, flying jets, which I
did that for a little bit. And then I
was a professional skydiver and base
jumper for years. I got into the public
speaking world. uh moved to Montana,
then got into the coffee shop stuff, and
I lost complete and utter sense of what
the hell I wanted to do with my life
somewhere in that mix.
And what I am actually the most excited
about now is that I have absolutely no
idea what I want to do next.
And I am old enough to realize that I
don't have to like white knuckle it.
That it's going to present itself
because that has was been the case in my
life up to this point. So, you know,
money is a great thing. I only want to
make enough money so I can say no to
things. It's my favorite most powerful
word. Yes. The addition and subtraction
it is. The older I get, subtraction is
way more powerful.
>> Are you good at saying no?
>> No. [laughter]
It can be hard. It depends because
[clears throat] if the question comes
from a pure business aspect, my litmus
test is, do I naturally do this in my
life? And would I actually enjoy this
regardless of the check? If either of
those is a no, it's an easy no. Tougher
ones are uh friends, family, hey, do you
want to do this? That get a little bit
tougher because it's a little bit of a
mix of personal and professional. But I
am at a place where I know that I have
the tools that I will be able to sort
whatever comes my way. And by relaxing a
little bit and white knuckling it less
and not having a specific target that
I'm throwing darts at, it has actually
provided more opportunities for me than
anything else. So
yeah, I I wish I could give you a
specific answer, but truly the
realization that I know I'm prepared for
whatever comes next is actually what I'm
the most excited about.
>> Very cool. I I can sense your excitement
about the uncertainty about exactly what
it will be, but the certainty that
you've got a process that's now well
worked out within you that just emerges
and that it's going to happen. You know,
when I first got out of the military, it
was almost crisis mode. I was working
for the strength and conditioning
company as my initial bridge out and I'd
been doing so on the weekends
moonlighting. So, I had from a economic
off-ramp, I went from making what I was
making the military to what I was making
for that company. there was a slight
increase as opposed to a decrease, which
is great
until that ended 16 months later when I
quit without having uh another job lined
up whatsoever and then went into the
garage and started selling things on
Craigslist, which is a really good way
to meet really weird people. If you
haven't tried it, give it a give it a
go. Um maybe meet them away from your
house, [laughter] you know, meet them
down the street somewhere. But it was
for years, am I going to have enough
money to pay the bills? Am I going to
have enough money for the mortgage? What
am I going to do? What am I going to do
if somebody doesn't reach out with an
opportunity? Built a a I would say I
mean I was going to say a tool a toolkit
or a skill set, but it's more a
mentality than anything to realize that
you can solve what does come out and you
can kind of build on your you know your
foundation of the work that you have
done and that can slowly build out over
time. It takes time. This is not
something that happened in a matter of
one year. This is well over a decade at
this point. But getting out of that
survival mode and just having the
ability to assess opportunities from a
place of do I even want to do this as
opposed to a place of I feel like I have
to.
Man, you want to talk about a sleep
score difference. [laughter]
>> Totally. Oh, can can relate. Can relate.
Oh, it's it's a world apart.
>> Yeah.
>> And you've earned it.
>> But it takes time. And that's what
people don't want to see. It's the
overnight 10ear success, which again,
I'm sure you could point to somebody who
has that. Does that scale broadly?
>> Yeah. And it doesn't last. I I don't
know anyone that came up quick and it
just had like a step function where it's
still going. It's, you know,
>> or continued on the the vertical
forever. Yeah. And again, it's an
outlier. Cool. Totally get it. And two
thumbs up for that person.
>> But for everybody who thinks they're
going to replicate that even by doing
exactly the same things hasn't been my
experience. Last question. You talk
about the price of success.
>> Mhm.
>> And just acknowledging it. Wouldn't want
to scare anyone out of uh going after
their dreams.
>> I would. That's what I'm here for. And
[laughter]
>> either short-term or long-term dreams
because I'm like a you know, pick the
target and go after it. You know, you
know,
>> I think fiveyear fiveyear increments are
really good. That's Anyway, that's just
my bias. But there is a price.
>> Yeah. I could list off the number of
things I missed or didn't do or failed
or whatever. You certainly talk about
some of those and and they can go from,
you know, the many small things that one
can miss out on that it, you know, in
total are turn out to be bigger things
and then they're like key moments that,
you know, people miss. And maybe let's
just get your thoughts on gauging the
price of success. Should people have a
sense of what their line is uh before
they you know jump into the you know the
line of pursuit for their goal or do you
think it's just something that you know
you just got to learn by experience?
>> I think until you learn through at least
a little bit of experience it's hard to
gauge where your line is because for a
while you just don't know what you don't
know. And maybe we live in a in a world
where information is more accessible and
so people can figure it out. Like my
middle son as an example. It was
fascinating watching my kids use the
internet to bridge gaps in knowledge
going on to you. My middle son
specifically started two businesses when
he was in high school. Uh he started a
window cleaning company called Peeping
Tom's windows [laughter] which but by
the way I came up with both of these
names. That was the only marketing help
I had. And he had a Christmas light
company that was called Epstein's Lights
because they're not going to hang
themselves. Right. Again I I came up
with the names. He had to go door to
door, but everything to include LLC's,
equipment, it's YouTube. How do you How
do you start an LLC? How do you get a
business license? How do you get
insurance for a window cleaning company?
So, I think when you and I were growing
up, you were kind of out there smacking
your head against the wall a little bit
unless you could find somebody who was
exactly in that profession. So, when I
was in high school wanting to be a team
guy, I didn't know any team guys. I
mean, I knew Charlie Sheen, but who
didn't, right? Documentary movie who
probably inspired thousands of people to
join the military and then they get
there and like, "Oh, this is all made
up. Damn it." Except for the opening
scene where he shitfaced, wakes up in
the ocean. Relatively accurate.
[laughter] Beyond that though, don't
take that movie seriously. You're not
jumping off your jeep over the bridge
in, you know, Chesapeake to get to work.
I didn't actually run into a seal to get
beta from until I was in the military.
So, I didn't even have access to that.
There are I mean, I saw this when I was
an instructor. There are websites that
list every single day of training with
relative accuracy to everything you're
going to do that day, which actually the
instructors were pissed about. And then
I realized, oh, that's a good thing.
That plays to our favor.
>> You were an instructor.
>> I was an instructor. you can then remind
them how much time they have left. You
can play the time game in reverse with
them. But again, growing up, I
I didn't have a real good place to get
this information where my kids do now.
So, I think that there's an opportunity
if you smartly use these tools that you
can maybe learn a little bit more and at
least get access to some of the mistakes
or just the the mistakes that you would
naturally make because you just didn't
know. Like you probably could do a
window cleaning business, but you might
get in trouble from the city because a
year into it, you didn't realize you
needed to have a business license. Like,
okay, you could skip that because you
could go to the internet and find out
what you need and the requirements and
all that stuff.
I much like you, I don't ever want to
tell people that they shouldn't pursue
their goals, both short-term and long
term.
But I am now of the opinion as I get
older
that I would rather have people arrive a
little bit under this massive lifetime
goal
and be a really happy, really fulfilled,
really enriched person than somebody who
carves out everything from their life,
life experiences, social experiences,
family experiences, holidays, and they
get exactly what it is that they wanted
and they have nothing. Cuz I think both
you and I know people who from the e
outside, oh my god, the money, the fame,
the fill in the blank, they're not that
happy, but they have everything that
they wanted and they have nothing. That
sounds like hell. I'd rather have people
fall a little bit short of that and be
really happy about where they are. But
it's tough. I mean, how can you be
prescriptive with that? How do you say
aim for your goal, Andrew, but just a
little bit short?
>> That's a shitty fortune cookie. You
know,
>> try hard, but leave some for yourself.
>> It is a tough one. And um if people at
sort of top 1% of their careers were
willing to open the veil on their lives
and show what, you know, Christmas Day
looks like for them or what, you know,
New Year's Day looks like for them or a
typical, you know, Friday evening looks
like for them. Yeah,
>> you know, a lot of people would probably
rethink their goals.
>> I think it would shock a lot of people.
>> And again, I don't consider my the
people we're talking about, I mean,
these are publicly facing people. You
could look at them and think that it's
perfection. And we have a little bit of
social circle overlap and I've rubbed
elbows with a couple of these people and
kind of leave with the perception of,
man,
you have everything, but at what cost? I
just don't think it's worth it.
>> Yeah, I don't think it's worth it
either. And it sort of brings us to
elements of our prior conversation about
when things really, you know, drop into
the trench for certain people who are,
you know, at least from the outside
doing incredible in their professions or
their craft.
>> I think there is a a place to find
balance on the whole. Maybe it's like
first 50 years you just, you know, I'm
talking to myself, right? You just grind
it out and then you go, okay, cool. Like
the, you know, someone said it, I didn't
say this. this I think it was Naval that
said this like you you know one of the
reasons to win the game is so you can
stop playing the game. So you have to
sort of define what winning the game is
and and that's different for different
things. But that portion of your book
really got me thinking. You know,
>> money is an interesting aspect.
More seems to be the number people are
after more than a number. And I don't
know what that looks like because if
your number is never enough and you're
constantly seeking and you never get to
enjoy what you have via an experience as
opposed to a thing that you're not going
to get to take with you anyway,
doesn't more end up netting you less?
Yeah, Morgan Hel has a he has a couple
of really good books. Um I actually like
the second one more. Uh they're both
excellent, but the second one is called
The Art of Spending Money, which sounds
like, you know, here's a rich guy
telling people how to spend their money.
Very interesting book. mostly
psychological about how to really um
assess what's what things are worth to
you both in terms of what it takes to
get the resources and then when to use
them. And I mean I will say you know all
the there's a lot of data saying that
you know you know past it used to be
like $70,000 a year now I think it's
scaled up with inflation you know past a
certain amount of money people aren't
happier. I disagree I actually think
that money cannot buy happiness but it
certainly can buffer certain kinds of
stress. I agree.
>> Not all forms, right? I know some very
wealthy people. They used to fund my lab
for studies on optic nerve repair who
had kids with diseases that were
blinding diseases. I'll tell you, you
can have a billions of dollars in the
bank and
they're putting money to try and heal
that pain and solve the problem.
Fortunately for their kid and many
others, that's the the fortunately part
is that they're willing to do that.
>> Yeah.
>> But money can solve certain problems,
not others. But it can buffer stress,
certain forms of stress. And I think
that's not that's just the honest truth.
>> Yeah.
>> It can't buy connection of a real kind.
And it can undermine
>> I was going to say at a certain level of
money, I've seen it undermine the
connection because the person becomes
wary of why does this person want to
have a connection with me in the first
place? And they're they didn't come that
way. They got taken advantage of enough
times that they develop that thought
process.
>> You know, it's a whole other
conversation, but money is a certain
form of energy. And when people have a
lot of it, it it tends to attract people
who want to I don't want to say steal,
but they they feel like some they're
entitled to some of that energy. At the
end of the day, I I think if everyone
could define what enough for themselves
is, maybe with that includes a buffer,
like because they grew up with a lot of
financial fear or something, they need
enough plus a little bit more just in
case kind of thing. I know people like
that.
>> Past that, I I don't think there's
anything more to be gained in terms of
well-being or life experiences.
>> I do agree with the stress. I mean if
you can get to a place where you could
outsource food or menial tasks that will
give you more time to do the things that
you are enriched by yes it 100% can help
with that but you know the example you
said you know a billionaire who probably
feels helpless. What you know like those
two things shouldn't go together in a
sentence but that's the reality. No
amount of money is going to make that
person not feel helpless especially when
they're touched by that particular
situation in their life. may not be the
end all be all that people think it is.
>> Well, Andy,
loved the book. I know I've said that
many times, so I don't want to diminish
from that statement by saying it too
many times, but it's an awesome book.
Thank you.
>> Um really has changed my life for the
better. I've been recommending it like
crazy. I was in New York last week
giving a talk to uh this group raising
money for a different laboratory and um
they said, you know, what's what's the
difference between people who are like
11th to 100th in their profession versus
the top 10? And I said, "Well, so much
of it is about how they allocate their
energy." And I found this tool recently
in, you know, Andy's book. And, you
know, I'd been talking about the book
like crazy because of the practical
value that it has and also the potency
of the of the true life examples that
you give that really extend to
everybody. I know we talked a lot about
teams and guys and stuff and everything
in there really is of benefit. I say
this with certainty to men, women, boys,
girls, young and old. So much value
there. you're you're clearly a get after
it kind of person. You're also clearly
very reflective and whatever friction it
took to write portions or or that book
and get it out there, I'm just very
grateful that you did. It's it's a real
asset and um I'm also very grateful you
came here today to
>> to share.
>> We finally linked up
>> and we finally linked up. I have to say
Montana is my favorite state in the
entire country and maybe my favorite
place in the entire world. Many years
ago, I dreamed of living there and I
love hiking in Glacier. And yes, they do
have real bears there. Not like in
Yoseite where they have bears, but not
the kind of bears that will hunt you.
So, wear your bearbell. Story for
another time.
>> Griff actually got somebody not too long
ago. Oh, really? Yeah. And Glacier.
>> Yeah. Wear your bearbell. [laughter]
Hang your food. Wear your bearbell. But,
uh, listen, man. You're doing amazing
work. And we'll put links to all the
things mentioned. But, thanks so much.
Let's do it again.
>> Thank you. I appreciate it. Thank you
for joining me for today's discussion
with Andy Stumpf. To find links to his
book, Drownp Proof, which again I highly
recommend everybody read or listen to,
as well as to find links to his work and
to his podcast, please see the links in
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