I get a postcard to my home address and
it says in all caps in dark black, "We
are watching you."
>> Oh my god.
>> I know. It was very unnerving.
>> What do you think put you on the radar
of any of these people?
>> Dark Skies was an NBC series about an
alien invasion set in the 1960s,
>> which you co-created.
>> Yes. We're running the show and it's
going to air that night. We say, "Let's
[music] have a party." I'm at a premiere
party with all of these like big wigs in
Hollywood and some guy walks out and he
says, "You guys got a lot right, but you
also got a lot wrong and that's why I'm
here." He just starts writing something
on a piece of paper and he goes, "Put
this in a safety deposit box for about
10 to 15 years." I go, "What is this?"
And he goes, "Secrets of the universe."
Wo. Good night, folks.
They're going to tell us like when to
write and how to write. So, how would
that work? You would give us ideas that
you would want us to put in scripts. We
didn't take the deal.
>> Do you guys think that any other
directors in Hollywood have taken
similar deals? I am much more inclined
now than I was when I made Close
Encounters to really believe that we're
not the only intelligent civilization in
the universe. And
you know, after Jaws, he apparently he
got approached by some guys from Naval
Intelligence or something and he came
and offered him a deal and yeah, and he
took it.
>> We all just watched Steven Spielberg's
Disclosure Day and it's just like there
are too many deep cut things. I think he
got a lot right.
>> No, he gets a lot right every time.
>> I had a whole previous disclosure
experience when I was 18. We lived right
next door to this family, a guy named
John Harrington, his wife Lois. He goes,
"Listen, I got a new job. I have a
higher clearance level than the
president. Aliens are real. They're here
and I've seen them. Reality is not what
we know." This is what kicked off
decades of high strangess. I have seen
six people die in pretty horrific ways,
like Final Destination type, but I was
in the middle of them. What? So, I lower
the paper and there's a woman standing
at the foot of my bed.
Her eyes are two black circles that are
undulating.
>> You also saw a [music] Nordic alien. I
did
on Orcus Island and he said,
immediately. [music]
>> Ignition sequence start.
>> How [music] is this possible?
>> Nothing too unusual about that.
Their existence [music]
cannot longer be denied.
>> Bryce Zable, thank you so much for being
here. Brent Freriedman, this is an
honor. Uh, this couldn't be more perfect
timing because we all just watched
Steven Spielberg's Disclosure Day and
both of you guys have just illustrious
Hollywood credentials and we're here to
talk about the connections between
Hollywood and UFOs, but also a new
amazing podcast that you guys have
started about that. Um, Bryce, you are
the former chairman and CEO of the
Academy of Television Arts and Sciences.
You've created five prime time TV series
including Dark Skies uh which you
co-created and it is just incredible.
It's a kind of a cult classic and I want
to get into a lot of themes there. You
were a writer on Taken with Steven
Spielberg. Um and you co-authored AD
after disclosure uh with Richard Dolan
obviously legendary uh UFO researcher. I
know you guys do a lot of media together
as well. And uh Brent Freriedman uh you
are a writer, producer uh obviously Dark
Skies, Mortal Kombat, Star Trek
Enterprise, Star Wars, the Clone Wars uh
and and many others. And uh you have
some very interesting stories as well,
which you guys share on your new
podcast, Sound, Light, and Frequency.
Thank you both for being here.
>> Thanks for having us. This is a real uh
pleasure for me. I'll let Bryce tell his
own story, but um I've been a fan of
your show for a long time. Listened to
so many episodes and learned a lot.
>> We talk about your show all the time. We
keep doing shoutouts to your show on our
show. Um because you got you are
bringing it and we're happy to be here.
Thanks for having us.
>> Where do we start? Maybe that maybe the
title sound, light, and frequency of the
podcast that came from a very
interesting story. Let's get into that.
Uh you're you just made Dark Skies.
You're doing this party right around its
release, its premiere. Yep.
>> And what happens? Somebody enters the
scene.
>> Well, I mean the the only thing you need
to know is that Dark Skies was an NBC
series about an alien invasion set in
the 1960s.
>> My name is John Loenard. [music] I'm
recording this because we may not live
through the night. They're here. They're
hostile and powerful people don't want
you to know history as we know it is a
lie.
>> So, it was kind of a at the time kind of
a home run to have a network say, "We're
going to give you $40 million to make a
bunch of subversive television uh
because the pilot said JFK was killed
because he was going to tell the truth
about UFOs." So, we're celebrating,
right? We're on the air. It's a cool
thing. There's buses driving around LA
with our with our Dark Skies logo on it
and it's cool. It's a great thing. So,
we say, "Let's have a party." And we
have it at my house, the same place I
live today. All right. And there's 200
people in the backyard, which is a lot
of people. It's nice party. But Brent
and I, we know every single one of them
because we're running the show. And
these are network executives, studio
executives, what? Casting crew.
>> Yes. And we had a way to identify
everybody because we did a party favor
where when you'd come in, we took a
little uh Polaroid photo of you and we
turned it into a Majestic badge. As in
our show, it was about Majestic 12,
right? The main characters were in
Majestic 12. So, everyone was walking
around with a Majestic badge with their
name and their their photo on it, which
is an important part of the story except
for one guy during the party uh before
the show has aired. So remember, nobody
has seen this show. It I mean other than
the production people, but it's not
aired and it's going to air that night
and we have TVs all over the place so
that everybody can watch it. And one of
our producers comes up to me and says,
"Hey, there's a guy. You got to meet
this guy." And this guy introduces
himself um as JC and uh he says he just
wanted to meet me to congratulate me on
on a successful show and says, "You guys
got a lot right." And uh he basically is
saying that he has seen the pilot. All
right. And and I kind of challenged him.
I said, "Well, if you've seen the pilot,
what happens after that crop circle
scene?" And the guy goes, "Oh, yeah.
That was great." They go back to the
majestic headquarters. They do that
autopsy thing and they pull the ganglen
out of the guy's head. And I'm I'm
looking at him going, "Well, yeah,
that's exactly what what happens."
[laughter]
It was very unnerving. And um the the
the the baton gets tossed to Brent here
because
>> I basically had 200 people in my
backyard. I got people saying, "Where
are the appetizers?" Right? And I've got
people saying, you know, the network guy
wants to talk to you and say something.
So, there's a lot going on. I don't know
this guy. And I say, "Look, I don't know
you. I don't know exactly why you're
here. You were not invited. You should
leave."
>> And then I I left and thought he'd
escort himself out of the party. I had
other things to do, but that's not what
happened. Cut to Brent. This is my first
TV series. So, as Bryce said, huge C
it's it's it's on NBC. It's it's the
lead of their trilogy night. Um I'm at a
premiere party with all of these like
big wigs in Hollywood. Um but I've seen
the pilot at this point a hundred times,
right, through all the editing and the
post-production. So, I'm less interested
in watching it on the monitors with
everybody. But halfway through I lose
interest and I'm thinking I just want to
find a place where I can like go out
into the backyard and look at everyone
and watch them watching it. So I go out
by myself and I'm just standing out
there and I hear a rustle in the bushes
behind me and I kind of turn around and
some guy walks out and he does not have
a majestic badge,
>> right?
>> And so I'm already thinking I don't know
who this guy is like and he's like hey
Brent, how's it going? And I'm like, uh,
and I don't know his name. And I'm
thinking, is this like an NBC like
marketing executive or something, but he
knows me? I go, that's going pretty
good. He goes, yeah, you guys got a lot
right. Now, sidebar, in that moment,
what that meant to me was I had a whole
previous disclosure experience when I
was 18 with a guy who was a family
friend that was in the Reagan
administration. And we can go into that
later, but I took some of those ideas. I
told Bryce over a lunch about them,
which is what got us making Dark Skies.
So, there was some truth in the show
>> and this guy is suddenly standing there
saying, "You got a lot right." And then
he says, "You must have talked to
someone." And I felt my whole stomach
cinch up.
>> Cue the eerie music.
>> And I right in that moment, I thought,
I'm going to jail. Like remember I'm
just like you I'm what 40 40 35 I don't
know I'm like mid-30s first TV show and
I'm thinking here I am on the precipice
of greatness
>> and there's some he cuz the guy looks
like a cross between a frat guy and uh
you know a typical FBI agent kind of
cleancut round 30 he's got a white press
shirt navy blue blazer
>> so what you're saying other than me
being above 30 uh like me looks like me
you're too old to be a
>> got the jacket
So, so here's this guy and I'm like I'm
seeing my whole life flash before my
eyes and he goes, "But you also got a
lot wrong and that's why I'm here."
>> And I'm like, and again, I'm thinking
like, who is this guy? And so we start
to talk and he lays out that he is from
the office of naval intelligence and
they would like to talk to us about a
deal where we could get uh access we
could get information that we could then
help them with their slow drip
disclosure program. and and just a
complete now that the two stories kind
of intertwine here because the show is
now on by the time Brent is talking to
him at the barbecue and I'm going back
in the house to I don't know what I'm
doing but I'm going back in and I look
over and there's this guy I threw out of
the party an hour ago and he's talking
to Brent and I'm thinking that's not
right. So now I joined this story and
now you got Brent, me and the guy who
said he's from the office of naval
intelligence and by the way we are
getting to soundlight and frequency.
>> Yes. So there I am. I'm talking to this
guy and um my wife comes up and she's
looking for me. Bryce sees this guy.
Suddenly my wife is there. So there's
all these people talking and the guy
says, "Yeah, so anyway, we'd like to
make a deal with you. Here's my card,
you know, and he gives me the card and
all it says is J.C. dot with a 310
number on it. Nothing else.
>> Give me a call and we can talk about
it." And uh I kind of say, "Okay, you
know, fine." And he kind of looks at me
and his demeanor up until this point had
been like, you know, fairly genial. And
>> probably, by the way, because the guy
that tried to throw him out of the party
is looking at him. So, [laughter]
>> so now he gets a little bit more serious
and he says, "I can see you're not
taking this seriously." He looks at my
wife and he goes, "Ma'am, can I borrow a
piece of paper and a pencil?" She kind
of like goes into her purse and she
pulls out a piece of paper which is she
takes an old ATM deposit envelope,
right? You have to put your checks in
there. She rips off the the triangular
fold down. She gives him that in a pen
and he takes it in front of all of us
and he just starts writing something on
a piece of paper about 30 seconds and
then he folds it up and he goes, "Here
you go. Do me a favor. put this in a
safety deposit box for about 10 to 15
years and if we don't make a deal then
you'll know I was for real. So I take it
from him and I kind of look at it and I
go and it's an incomprehensible like
formula thing and I go what is this and
he goes soundlight and frequency secrets
of the universe. Good night folks. And
he turns around and walks out.
>> Wow.
>> Is it a math formula?
>> Not particularly. It's got some
symbology in it and we're actually
looking into it right now. I'd love to
come back on your show someday and show
it to you and explain what I want to
see. Yeah,
>> you should use AI and try to decode it.
>> We we have done that and a lot of
different things. We have a lot of
people write someone wrote a 22page
analysis of it.
>> Oh my god.
>> I know. So, it's it's weird and we can
talk about that later, but I wanted to
at least give you the understanding of
what sound light and frequency meant,
>> right? Why we named the podcast this
because this is what kicked off decades
of high stranges. starting with that
show. Now, I'm an experiencer, so my
high strangers started going all the way
back till I was a child, but it all kind
of culminated in Dark Skies and brought
Bryce into this crazy experience that
lasted that went on for a while. Uh
because that was not the only time we
talked to JC.
>> So, what happened next? [laughter]
>> Actually, it's almost important to talk
about what happened before. A year
before that event, we were shooting the
Dark Skies pilot. Okay. And by the way,
we're not here to talk about a
30-year-old show other than it exists in
a framework.
>> Well, everybody should watch it because
it's a really great
>> fun. It is fun, but it exists
>> and it's predictive, I think, of a lot
of, you know, things that seem to uh
really dovetail with, you know, real
whistleblower accounts.
>> Absolutely. And as we've been uh sort
of, I guess we're using the Soundlight
and Frequency podcast as a bit of an
investigative active investigation to
try to see if we tell our story, will
other people tell us their stories? And
that's actually starting to work.
Anyway, things we had forgotten almost
were this one. A year before when we're
shooting the pilot, um I get a postcard
to my home address and it's got a
picture on the front cover. Uh which by
the way, we will you should
>> put that on your show if you want. And
it's a picture of a book, I believe,
from 1960 called Flying Eyes. And it's
these eyes flying in the sky looking at
whatever. And I turn it over to read the
postcard and it's been typed on a old
style manual typewriter with a very
black ribbon and it's all in caps. All
right. And it's not a like Tom Hanks
used in, you know, Band of Brothers and
all that. That kind of old thing. And
instead of it being a sentence that goes
across all in caps, it's four words, one
2 3 four stacked on top of each other.
And it says in all caps in dark black,
"We are watching you."
[laughter]
>> So that's pretty. So as a a sort of So
Brent uh of course was thinking about
his interaction with this guy that was
the secretary of energy during the
Reagan administration. I'm wondering
about that. I'm thinking about these
postcards that we got. So this guy
didn't come out of nowhere, right?
>> Did not come out of nowhere. Uh,
>> what do you think put you on the radar
of any of these people? Do you think it
would were had you already written taken
with
>> Well, no, that came after, but I had
done a couple of UFO things and of
course Brent and I were at that moment
doing a very uh highly anticipated uh
pilot. People were talking about it
because of the way we sold it was
interesting, but that's another story.
But prior to that, I had written the
first Sci-Fi Channel uh original film
and it was called Official Denial and it
was highly euphological. I mean, it had
everything from Majestic 12 to
Abductions to uh crash wreckage and
organic spaceships and all this stuff in
it. So, put that on the on the radar.
I'd even written UFOs and Men in Black
into the Lois and Clark series when I
worked there. So I was sort of a UFO guy
in making, you know, and and then we got
dark skies. So maybe that's what put us
on the radar
>> on the radar of the powers that be of
>> somebody. That's Bryce. Bryce was doing
a lot of work in this area. I had
literally done no work in this area. But
again, uh I should bring you up to speed
on this when I got disclosed to because
obviously it was relevant to somebody.
Um, and and it has come full circle now
because Dave Grush has been asking me
about this person. So,
>> he should tell you the story. I just
want to give you one quick setup. Brett
and I did not know each other. Uh, his
wife was my assistant on a show called
Mantis that I was producing and she knew
I had all these UFO books in the office.
And she said, "You should meet my
husband." So, we went out to lunch and
he told me the story that he's going to
tell you right now. And when I heard it,
I went, "I don't even know who this guy
is. I don't even know if this story is
true, but it's a hell of a story and I'd
like to work with him. And that became
our our our origin, if you will.
>> Yes, that was our meet cute.
>> That was our meat cute [laughter]
it is, but we didn't meet.
>> Uh, so
>> here's the story.
>> I grew up next to a guy that um I
revered, but I I grew up in the Bay Area
um in a place called Walnut Creek, East
Bay. And um we lived right next door to
this family where uh there was a guy
named John Harrington, his wife Lois,
his two daughters, not going to name
them. Um his daughters were in between
my brother and I. So I was the oldest of
the four kids, my brother was the
youngest. And I mean we literally lived
right next to him. There was like one
gate between us. And we lived on these
pretty big pieces of property. So we
didn't have any other real neighbors. It
was just us kids growing up. And John
was a man's man. He was uh he was all
the things I wanted to be. My dad was an
artist and so I wanted to be an athlete.
I wanted to do all these things. John
taught me how to throw a football, got
me into football, taught me how to hold
a gun, you know, shoot a BB gun, like
just all these things. And loved my dad,
but he was an artist. He wasn't
interested in any of this stuff. So I
became he was the he was like a
surrogate father to me. Cut to we move
away six years later. We stay in touch.
the families. Um, and then I get a phone
call. I've just graduated from high
school. It's 1981, and I'm going to
UCLA. And I had, John had suggested that
I go to Stanford, which was his alma
mater, but I'm going to UCLA to be a
theater major. So, he calls me up and he
says, you know, what are you doing? And
I can't believe you didn't go to
Stanford. He goes, listen,
[clears throat] I got a new job. I'm
back east now and uh I' I'd like you and
maybe a couple friends to drive our cars
across the country. Oh, and our dog.
Bring your our dog with you and some
other stuff that we left in the garage.
But I'll pay you guys and then when you
get back here, I'll show you around DC
and then I'll fly you back. I'm
thinking, what a great summer.
>> Sweet deal for a college kid,
>> right? It's like this is the in between
high school and college. So, I'm
thinking, sure, I'll I can do that. So
he didn't say anything about what his
job was, but actually we knew something
was going on because about a year
earlier or so, we had been approached,
the family, by some like NSA or like CIA
or someone that come in and asked a
bunch of questions. I guess they were
doing like a background character check
on him, but they didn't tell us what the
job was, but we knew it was something
with the government. And he has just
moved back to Langley Farms, Virginia.
So, by the way, in in 1981, we now know
John Harrington was the under secretary
of the Navy for, I believe, development
and or procurement or something like
that.
>> And I I believe he went through Stanford
on a Naval ROC scholarship.
>> Okay. So, Navy
>> and he will later become the Secretary
of Energy in the second term.
>> Department of Energy.
>> There you go.
>> So, none of this means anything to me.
He's just a great friend. He's like my
surrogate dad. the drive across the
country. I don't know why we weren't
killed or put in jail many times. That's
a whole other movie I've never written.
[laughter] We get to his house um that
night when he comes home where
everyone's waiting to have dinner cuz
it's going to be like this reunion. And
um
I remember kind of like waiting at the
window kind of waiting to see when all
of a sudden a black Lincoln Town car
pulls up and he gets out of the back
seat and there's two Secret Service
people that come in and I notice he has
a briefcase handcuffed to his wrist.
They walk him into the house and into
kind of the off the entryway into his
office and they go back and I'm kind of
watching from a distance. No one will
even make eye contact with me and I'm
watching from a distance and he puts it
into a wall safe, right? One of the
Secret Service people leaves and the
other one stays in the house.
I'm thinking, who is this guy? Like, but
he comes, hey, Brian, how's it going?
Yeah, we have a big dinner and
everything's great. And then afterwards
he's like, "Hey, why don't you and I go
out onto the the veranda and catch up."
So when we were growing up, he was not
just like badass, but he was Calvinist.
So he was very strict about certain
things. We go onto the back patio and
he's he brings a big bottle of Jim Beam
and he's pouring himself two fingers as
we're talking. He looks haggarded. He
looks, you know, old, like very much
older, but also just heavy now.
>> [gasps]
>> He's a different guy.
I'm sitting there talking with him.
We're catching up. He's giving me
about not going to Stanford. And I'm
like, "Okay, all of that's great. What
is your job?" And he goes, "I can't
really talk about it. I, you know, it's
I'm working for the government." Now, he
was Reagan's advancement man in his
campaign. He was one of the reasons he
helped Reagan get elected. There's
[clears throat] a whole history between
John's wife, Lois Hate, who's I think
one of her family members was a governor
of California back in the day and so
politics Republican, you know, [gasps]
>> they went way back. At any rate, he's
working for Reagan because Reagan trusts
him
>> and this is a super smart guy and now
he's telling me, "I can't tell you what
the job is. It's classified." And I
said, "Okay, well, I I don't what does
that even mean?" And he goes, "Look, I
have a higher clearance level than the
president." Now, 1981,
oops, 18 years old, I was not a standout
in civics. I was like, "That's
impossible. The president, there is
nothing higher than the president. How
how could the guy who lived next door to
me have higher classification than the
president? But this is not a guy who
lies." Like, so I'm looking at this guy
and I'm thinking,
>> "What?" I'm like, "Okay." And I I said,
"Well, how did so how did you get that
job?" And he said, "Well, I I was
briefed uh for months in an underground
facility in West Virginia."
Now, again, this is a guy you grew up
with. Like this I'm like looking at this
person like I don't I don't even know
who this man is anymore. And I said,
"What what was that like?" And he said,
"Well, I used to cry myself to sleep
every night." That that's by the way
when he said that to me at this lunch I
just got
shiver you know because a tough guy is
crying himself to sleep every night.
What's it take for that to happen?
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> And even if he's exaggerating,
I couldn't have imagined him crying
himself to sleep once.
>> Right.
>> So I said, "Well, I don't what what
would make you cry yourself to sleep?"
And he goes, "Brent, this is not the the
world I thought I was bringing my
daughters into.
I'm thinking, well, I'm like your son.
[laughter]
What is this world that we're in? And so
I pressed him on and he kept saying, "I
can't talk about that. I can't talk
about it. I This is like classified
information." And finally, after he'd
had a couple drinks, he said, "All
right, look, I know when you were
growing up, you were into science
fiction and comic books and all that
stuff. I can tell you this. Aliens are
real. They're here and I've seen them
just like that. Just like here, I'll
throw you a bone, kid. Now, I I honestly
at that point in my life, I hadn't
thought a lot about aliens. I wasn't
into aliens. This wasn't a thing in my
life, but this felt huge, like I
couldn't wrap my brain around it. And I
said, "Well, I are are they alive?" And
he paused and he said,
"I can't say." I said, "You can't say or
you won't say." And he said, "I can't
say."
And I kind of just left it that. And
then I came back at him with, "Okay,
well, hold on a second. If what you're
saying is true, how does everyone not
know about it?" And he said, "Oh, lots
of people know about it." 81, you could
walk into any bookstore and you're going
to find all sorts of books on the
shelves with lots of truth. But right
next to them are the books that we
publish full of propaganda. It's a
multi-billion dollar campaign to cover
up the truth.
Now in ' 81 I the other thing that
struck me was I didn't I don't know that
I'd heard the term billion before. So
I'm like what? Like everything is
blowing my mind right now. And I'm
thinking what? Like I just had not
considered any of this. And I was like,
"Okay,
why does the truth have to be covered
up?" Like, you're telling me, "Okay,
aliens are real. Okay, great. What
else?" And he said,
"Look, we live in a god-fearing
country." Again, 1981,
there's only one thing that keeps this
world spinning,
gives everybody the control they need.
That's the global economy. If you
disrupt that by taking away the reason
for people to live their lives,
everything falls apart and governments
of the world will not be able to control
the populace.
So what's the advantage of giving people
the truth? And I was like, well, so
you're telling me it'll never come out?
He said, if it has to. I said, well, in
our lifetime, maybe. And why would he
tell you an 18-year-old if he's
classified?
>> Did you ask him?
>> I I asked. So I Well, yes. So, one other
he's telling me all of this and I just
each thing is just like a brick on my
shoulder. I'm just like,
>> "This is a lot to process."
And I said, "Wow, okay. Well, I I guess
now I know why you cried yourself to
sleep every night." And he said, "No,
Brent, you don't understand. This was
day three. [snorts and sighs]
He'd been there for months. And I'm
thinking, "Okay, I'm out." [laughter]
>> I'm like, "I can't take." And I said,
"Well, I I you know,
>> how do you know I'm not going to tell
anybody this?" And he goes, "I'm sure
you will. Question is, who's going to
believe you? You're an 18-year-old kid.
You're going off to college. You're
going to tell a big story. You use my
name. I'll just deny it."
Now, in the years following that, I did
tell a couple people and they were like,
"Wow, that's such a great story." And I
could tell no one believed me,
>> and I just started to just lose interest
in even telling the story cuz like all
you end up looking like is an idiot.
Although, I did make Brent tell it to me
multiple times because I wanted to see
if it ever changed. if if this if this,
you know, I'm a journalist at by
training, so I thought if he tells it
multiple times and it's it's something
he's riffing on, then then the riff will
change a little bit, but it never has.
And uh uh recently a couple of things
have even happened that make us more
sure than ever that it's a true story.
>> Yeah. share some of that because
>> well I mean the one thing that's most
obvious and Jesse you must know this
yourself all your many of your audience
does there are underground facilities in
West Virginia but we did not know about
them until the Washington Post I think
it was the Post that broke this story in
the '9s about Greenbryer in and there's
an another one and Greenbryer was where
they were going to evacuate Congress in
the event of nuclear war so there was a
place but in 1981 nobody knew that
>> do you think he was talking about
Greenbryer.
>> He didn't say, but again, he was talking
about an underground facility in West
Virginia.
>> I didn't you I couldn't have shown you
on a map where West Virginia was at that
time. I did not know there were such
things as underground facilities. So,
when I told it to Bryce, I that was
probably just part of the story, but
then it was years later when it actually
came out, like Bryce said, that the
there's a whole story and now you can go
visit it. It's like a tourist place.
>> We could do a show from there. Do you
think what freaked him out so much dealt
with the fact that he had this Calvinist
Christian background
>> or do you think there's something much
darker than just aliens at the surface
level of what he sort of was briefed on?
>> So, excellent question. It's the it's
the question we get a lot. I get a lot.
Um,
>> and I, you know, I regret having not
followed up with him to ask that
question. I frankly was just too
overwhelmed. I I I was like, you know,
it's the whole drinking from a fire hose
thing. I just had too much information
too fast.
>> What was your instinct though? Cuz I I
often, you know, like before you rested
the aliens thing out of him,
>> he's saying this is not the world I
thought I was bringing my daughters up
in.
>> Yeah.
>> Are are you you mind racing? Like what
is he talking about? Are you thinking
anything specific there or?
>> No, I I think at that at that moment I I
didn't have I my imagination wasn't
developed enough to even you know start
to think well is it are we in a matrix
or you know like I didn't have any of
that language right to I I just was like
what does that mean? What I all I knew
is I don't like it.
>> I don't I don't like what what he's
talking about. And so
>> I didn't have an opinion then. Since
then, I have developed many ideas and
theories, but and people have asked me
too like, "Well, how do you know he
wasn't lying to you? How do you know
this wasn't a scop?" Well, technically,
I don't, but again, it's that I think
why I set the story up with the context
is that I had a really strong
relationship with this guy,
>> right? Um, for him to use me as part of
a scup. And by the way, what's my value
as a scup as an 18-year-old
>> student? And I'm not it's not even like
I'm going into film school. I'm going to
theater. [laughter]
Like so I'm absolutely worthless on on
every level, but particularly him.
>> So I have to scratch that off and say,
"Well, he wasn't I'm wasn't a scop." And
then I go, "Why would he lie to me?"
Right? Like that's such a weird specific
lie.
>> No reason.
>> So then I'm into why did he even
disclose to me? Well, it sounded like he
uh needed to unbburden himself and he
looked haggarded and run down and he
wasn't this man's man that you had grown
up with. And
>> so you can imply as I do that by saying
this isn't the world I thought I was
bringing my daughters into. Well, how do
you protect your daughters? You don't
share any of this information. So my
guess is that he probably hadn't shared
anything with his wife or his daughters.
Well, they were only my age at that
point. And so who does he talk to,
right? Who's that outlet? I mean, at the
end of the day, this is a super smart
guy, badass, very successful, but he's
human, right? And he's having to carry
and he's a lot of integrity. He's having
to carry these stories which are, as
he's saying, lies, right? The public is
being lied to. I'm sure that doesn't
make him feel good.
>> Yeah. Um but I think in in the
intervening years my theory has gone to
the truth that he had to process was
that reality is not what we know right
that in includes history that includes
the things we're being taught in school
just everything and I I think that is
what would make him cry like how this is
not the this is I brought kids into a
world I thought I understood the rules
fools of that world are not at all what
I thought and now my ability to protect
those children to bring them up and give
them the life I had is gone.
>> So, wow. [laughter]
There is a piece of information though
that just has come out in the last
couple of years and is active today that
actually uh lends great credibility to
this story.
>> Um,
>> can I go into that for a second? Yeah.
Okay. So, in uh in 2023, I was doing uh
the Need to Know uh show with Russ
Coltard. And uh Coltard had a source who
you've now met. It was David Grush. And
David Grush was coming out to Los
Angeles to uh be interviewed by Ross on
NewsNation. And the day before he had
come out and everybody had lunch and
then they decided, well, you know, we
should put him on tape now for either
practice or as an emergency piece of
tape in case he gets arrested. He too
was worried about being arrested before
he went to record with Ross. So everyone
went to my house, the same place where
this party crasher crashed, right? And
uh and my son was the the guy that
recorded Dave Grush on his first
interview during the time when we were
getting ready to record that. I said,
"Have you ever heard of John
Harrington?" And Grush said, "Oh, I know
I know John Harrington." I said, "Well,
what what what do you know about him?"
He didn't want to talk about it. Okay,
now let's flash forward to 2025. Um, I'm
not even I don't think I'm even working
with Coldart anymore when this happened.
Or maybe maybe I was, but he calls me
and he says, "I've been asked by Dave
Grush to ask you to ask Brent if he can
help us get John Harrington to
Washington DC to potentially testify to
the House Oversight Committee." Well, I
don't think you do that if if it's just
a wacky story made up by a kid. No, you
definitely wouldn't. Also, assistant
secretary of the Navy, you'd probably be
at the heart of the matter and then and
then you go on to be the secretary of
energy like, you know, the Navy comes up
uh with Bob Lazar of the Navy comes up.
Uh you know, Nat Kobitz, who was a, you
know, a senior Navy scientist who was
kind of Ross Coldart's original source
that really brought him down the rabbit
hole.
>> You know, he was Navy. Uh Harold
Malgrren said, you know, Office of Naval
Intelligence, that's where all the
secrets are kept. Office of Naval
Intelligence is the oldest uh
intelligence agency in the United
States. It goes back to I think like
1881 or two or something.
>> So yeah, all all of that makes sense.
And then of course you have all of the
rumors that the Manhattan Project was
the kind of original UFO legacy program.
The Atomic Energy Commission outlined
this sort of restricted data where if
you were to collect anything that had
any radiological features, alpha, beta,
gamma radiation, it would be born
secret. There's just so much meat on
that bone when it comes to both Navy and
you know atomic energy commission which
turns into the DOE. So it just makes
sense. And by the way, when the when the
guy who said he was from O and I said
you got some things right, one of the
things he said we got right is we had
the the guy running Majestic 12 be from
the Navy.
>> Okay. And they thought by John
Harrington,
>> inspired by John Harrington. And you got
to add the final piece here. John
Harrington, not John Harrington. Dave
Gush called you this year.
>> Yeah.
>> You should
>> in the last couple weeks.
>> Really?
>> You should fess that up because I don't
think anyone's you've not said that to
anybody. It was a little unsettling. I
get an email saying I've got a matter I
want to talk with you about. I'm like
>> from Dave Grush.
>> Yeah. From Dave Grush. And I was like, I
hope I don't have to go talk in front of
a bunch of people. I'm I'm did not want
that. And so I call him up on the Signal
app. And um he explains to me I can't
say everything he said but he he said to
me the gist of it was
we've identified John Harrington as one
as a very important person who has oral
history of a period where a bunch of
documentation does not exist anymore
>> and we would like to talk to him right
and I will go to him he doesn't have to
come I'm asking you because you know him
well you had a relationship how would I
go about even getting him to talk
because five or 6 years ago, Marco Rubio
tried to approach him and that he got
shut down. So,
>> I really want to talk to him. Now, John
is in his mid80s at this point. Um, his
wife maintained a relationship with my
mom. Um, and I got through secondhand
information that John wasn't in great
health. So, I'm sure there's a little
urgency to like get his story on the
record, but I also understand he doesn't
want to tell his story. If he wanted to
tell his story, he would have been like
Harold Malg Malgren was with you, like
coming forward and volunteering.
>> He hasn't done that. And it goes back
for me to maybe he hasn't told his
family about any of the things that he
did and he does not want to and that's
his right and privilege. Wow. This is so
fascinating. It's almost like he was
maybe majestic 12 or at that that level.
You know, you have Bobby Ray Inman who
was Navy and then he ended up as uh I
believe uh he was both uh director of
the CIA and director of the NSA at the
same time, I think. Or maybe he was
deputy director of the CIA and and
director of the NSA. And uh you have you
have all these guys who seem like
they're high up in the Navy and then
they are, you know, are all over this
issue in this sort of lore. And so I I
wonder how how much he knows. And it's
interesting too that he wanted you to go
to Stanford. Do you ever think about
that? Like maybe he was like grooming
you a little bit and he was like, "Why
didn't you go to Stanford? Maybe you
could have gone down the same road I
did."
>> I I
>> That's a great theory.
>> I have No one has ever proposed that. So
that's really interesting.
>> I like that. Um
>> have you thought Have you thought about
it independent of me bringing it up?
>> No, I'm saying no one has asked it and I
had not thought of it. Um there was
there was at one point so he was a
lawyer
>> cuz you were like a son to him then.
>> Yes. Well he there was he was a lawyer
and he wanted me to follow in his
footsteps and go to he went to like Bolt
or Hastings Law School at Cal. So he
went to Stanford
>> um you know apparently with three point
a 4.0 know in three years like that kind
of guy top of his class Bolt or Hastings
like I think it was Bolt and he kept had
always been telling me you should be a
lawyer you know take over my practice or
work in my so
>> maybe maybe that was that I was heading
down that path I don't know
>> you know people have said over the years
like why you why would he talk to you I
think it's your theory is correct I
think in that moment here's this kid he
has a relationship with he can just
unburden himself we're sitting out on
back porch, right? And he just
unbburdens himself.
>> And at the same time, I think in the he
didn't want to tell his family about
this, but here's this young man going
off to college. It's like, here's some
things you should know, kid.
>> Yeah.
>> And and to get even trippier,
>> a lot of these things seem woven
together on this hermetically sealed
level of like serendipitous
interactions. Yes. And it sometimes it
deals with kind of like old money, old
families, that sort of thing. And if he
is married to Lois Hate is this of like
the Hate Ashberry, the same name, and
the sort of this, you know, um
>> almost royal Californian, you know, like
kingmaking family like that that seems
kind of interesting as well.
>> It it's very interesting. I I don't This
is as we've talked about not just the
story, but a lot of the things that have
happened to us. There's a a point where
you get the tipping point of
coincidence.
>> Yeah.
>> And you go, "Okay, this cannot logically
be a coincidence." All of these things,
these connections and whatnot, you're
into this thing where it's like it's
either synchronicity.
>> Yeah.
>> Or it's designed.
>> Yeah. It's designed at a level that's
higher than you.
>> Yes. We were just talking earlier, you
know, about, you know, you being the the
uh chair of the Academy of Television
Arts and Sciences, and, you know, the
last writer to do it was Rod Serling,
who I knew was my my dad's godfather,
but I didn't know that he had produced
this sort of, you know, uh, preeminent
UFO documentary in 1974, UFOs, past,
present, future, until I had gotten into
the subject. So there are all these
things, you know, I I've experienced
similar things and you can't even talk
about it and then it also feels a little
self-indulgent and people start to think
that you're like part of the conspiracy
and it's no it's happening at a higher
it
>> sure
>> a higher level and and by the way
there's just one little Harrington note
that you should point out during Dark
Skies you heard from him.
>> Yes. Okay. So this this was interesting.
We're in the middle of production on
Dark Skies. I think it's just started to
air. There's a lot of press at the time.
And I come in and there's on my desk at
the production office there's an
envelope from John Harrington. I'm like
this is another like like oh you
betrayed everything that I told you. And
instead I open it up. It's one of those
old buck slips like from the desk of
John Harrington and it's like this long
strip and it says congratulations Brent
on finally getting your sto your story
out there. Whoa. No way.
>> Yeah. So he Okay. Well, then this
clearly this JC, you know, Office of
Naval Intelligence guy was probably
acting. He was probably aware of and
John Harrington were aware and in
coordination around the fact that you
had been, you know, informally briefed.
>> Yeah, this is the question that you
can't answer. And I'd love an answer if
someone could provide it.
>> Did JC know John Harrington? Was there
any coordination there? I think there
had to because
>> if you think about if he's saying I'm
office of naval intelligence and then
John has this like you know kind of
illustrious you know amazing history at
the highest levels
>> and then he's you know saying like it's
almost like you were fed some of this
information and then you you were fed a
little bit of the information at least
enough to get interested when you were a
teenager
>> and then and then John simultaneous to
that is writing to you and he hadn't
gotten in touch for a while and so he's
saying congrats and getting your story
out as if he's knowledgeable about the
whole story, Dark Skies and all of it.
That all seems, you know, not
coincidental to me.
>> That buck slip came just after the JC
contact. So, part of what's so
interesting, like again, we wouldn't be
telling a story because, hey, we it's
nostalgic that this will be fun. It's
because these events like barnacles on a
ship have just attached itself to this
story. So, there's the story of a UFO
alien invasion TV series that it told,
but that's only part of the story
because Brent and I were part of this
synchronicity, this lightning rod for
some of these other things. Um, and and
as we've gone forward with our own, you
know, uh, investigation of this, we have
found other people who have other
similar kinds of stories.
>> I want to close the loop on the JC
story. Yes. because I'm sure a lot of
the audience is like, "Whatever happened
with that?" Did you take the the Fouian
bargain and end up working with him or
what happened next?
>> There's two beats to that story as we
say in Hollywood in in the week
following JC coming to the party. So now
we go back to work, right? We you know,
it's hard to make even bad television,
but if you aspire to make good
television, it's it's all-encompassing
because think about it. At any given
time, you're shooting one episode,
you're in post-production on another
episode, you're on pre-production on
something else, you've got a writer's
room knocking out scripts, there's just
a lot of work, right? So, we sort of
moved on. We just said, I don't know
what that was, but let's forget about it
and move on. And uh I believe it was
your assistant that got a phone call
from JC. Yes.
>> Who who suggested a meeting?
>> Yes. Well, so JC, first of all, we were
very rattled when I once we were able to
kind of talk and debrief after that
first meeting. We were a little bit
rattled. So he called, I did not call
him. He gave me the card. I did not call
him. He called a couple times. So my
assistant finally came in and said,
"It's that JC again." And I'm like, So I
go in and I take the call and he's like,
"Hey, listen. Um, uh, we would like to
follow up on our meeting and I'm going
to bring a superior over to your office
and we can have another discussion." I
was like, "Okay, but work click." Like,
it wasn't, "Let's set a meeting." It
was, "I'm coming over to do this thing,
right?" And he gave me a a day and a
time, and it wasn't negotiable.
>> Part of the pro part of the setup was
that he I think he was saying, "I think
your partner needs a little bit of
convincing, right? Cuz I I'd been sort
of the blocking character in this story,
right?" And so, they did come to our
offices the I believe it was the week
after this party. And uh what what Brent
and I decided to do is uh okay, we had a
conference room. It had, you know, the
glass window and everything, which we
thought was good. That'd be a good place
to meet with these people if if they
showed up because we posted our security
guys uh from the the show. We said just
stand outside and look tough, right? So
they were So there were witnesses, too.
We thought if anything unourred is going
to happen, we don't want to, you know,
we want to see this. And so this guy did
show up. JC showed up, the young
youngish 30-ish guy, and he showed up
with a guy who we would I say 10 to 15
years maybe, you know, uh, older. And
this guy, uh, you know, JC gave off sort
of the intelligence vibe. The guy that
he brought out gave off more of a
military vibe.
>> We'll call him the captain.
>> We'll call him, we didn't call him in
the meeting the captain. And maybe he
was introduced as that. We've called him
that since because we we don't want to
call him the guy in the bomber jacket,
right? But he had a bomber jacket with
insignas and all that, boots, jeans, and
he was um if JC was willing to have a a
friendly conversation and was the good
cop in this, this guy was the bad cop
because he sort of acted like I can't
believe I have to be here and talk to
you guys.
>> And so, but they were still there to
sort of make a deal or to talk about it.
And so, remember we told you earlier
where they had said, "You got a lot of
things right." So we were like well you
know what what did we get right and uh
so there was some conversation about
that but at one point the guy goes well
I'll tell you what you got wrong
>> right and we had had this thing which
was a horror kind of trope which was the
the alien organism embedded in your
brain and could be copied and sent to
other humans. It was classic invasion of
the body snatchers kind of thing. And he
said
>> the ganglion.
>> The gang ganglion. And this is the thing
he said that I but got both of us kind
of taken back. He goes that's not the
way it's done.
>> And we're like okay.
>> Did you say how is it done?
>> Yeah. How is it?
>> We did. And he he they said implants
>> and it was it was more technological uh
some kind of implants. And the only
thing I can tell you is again both Brand
and I were in a different state of mind.
uh we didn't have proof that this was
real, right? And and we hadn't put
together all the other things that were
around us and stuff was coming at us
like a fire hose. So I do remember
thinking, you know, I I don't have a
long time for this meeting. So if these
guys want to know what we're thinking, I
want to know what they're thinking. So I
started asking qu like you're asking us
I was asking him questions like uh so
what about the Betty and Barney Hill
thing, right? And he was very dismissive
because not now, next, right? He would
>> Did they confirm anything when they say
you got a lot right and you said what
what did we get right? Did they say XYZ?
>> Naval intelligence. Um uh the Kennedy uh
connection
>> around UFOs is assassination
being linked to UFOs
>> although but definitely the Kennedy and
UFOs were correct and and that was a
huge part of
>> Did he go deeper on that at all or
>> No, I don't think so. I think he just
sort of confirmed that that was I mean
cuz that's the essence of the dark skies
pilot. Okay. And so as a consequence the
mere fact that we would say it in 1996
u today you can go on the internet you
find a lot of people talking about it.
Malgrim certainly talked about think it
was the number one issue.
>> Correct. But you none of that existed
when we put it in the pilot. The only
reason we put it in the pilot is when we
were sort of creating the show we said
well I'll tell you what let's take the
two greatest conspiracies of all time.
UFOs
>> and JFK, let's put them in an atom
collider and see what we get. And that's
what Dark Skies was. So, it wasn't us
saying we have inside information. It
was just saying, wouldn't this be
interesting, but they sort of confirmed
that we were on the right track with
that,
>> which is weird. And and the reason I was
asking him about Betty and Barney is
they're in the pilot. Um, you know, the
whole idea of Majestic 12. Uh I I don't
recall that they actually that this guy
confirmed the name Majestic 12, but he
certainly the idea that there was naval
intelligence involved in a uh a pretty
vast and powerful organization that was
dedicated to man I I think the term was
managing the whole thing.
>> It almost feels like uh that MJ12 is
like they're like managing reality as
self.
>> Yeah.
>> And uh [laughter] Yeah. and managing
timelines or something.
>> And oh, I there's actually there's there
is one thing we should point out. Um the
one thing and I know we're going to talk
later maybe about disclosure day because
disclosure is a big theme uh of the of
the moment. But that's what Dark Tides
was about. We had two characters. We had
the young kid and his so-called
bossmentor.
And the entire series was like a tone
poem between these two. One of them
said, "The people have a right to know."
the other guy said the people can't
handle the truth. Sort of the Jack
Nicholson statement. And so every
episode kind of talked about that kind
of thing. Anyway, in terms of
disclosure, uh
>> back when they they invoked the idea
that uh and I'm sure you you've talked
about it on your show, the the idea of
the um the aviary, which sort of came
out in the 80s.
>> These guys said, "Well, you've heard of
the Aviary." And that had been on that
TV show, of course. And um they said,
"Well, we're the aquarium." And now I've
told that to people and I see you've got
a smile on your
>> I've told it to people and they they're
like, "Yeah, I don't know about but all
Brent and I can do is bear witness to
what was said. We can't evaluate, you
know, the truth of that, per se." For
context, the aviary was this long
rumored uh like it was like bird code
names assigned to kind of disinfo agents
around UFO related truth. So people like
Rick Dodie, John Leer, uh it's kind of
associated with Bill Moore and the
agents where he made that muon speech
and he was like I was
>> I took this fouian bargain and was like
led astray
>> on this topic. So the one thing that
they were confirming though, I mean the
one basic thing they were confirming is
that uh the UFO topic such as it was
being managed in terms of what people
were going to be allowed to know or not
know. Air Force definitely not in favor
of it.
>> Air Force holding the line, you know,
closed down Blue Book in ' 69 said,
"We're washing our hands of that. We
don't want any more to do about that."
And their attitude was well obviously we
think differently. the people we work
with think and I think Brent used the
term slowdrip disclosure, right? We know
something has to change.
>> Makes sense. I mean, uh, the Navy is
really responsible for a lot of modern
disclosure. Not only were the all the
sightings in those that New York Times
article, naval sightings,
>> right? But you had uh Bray was the guy
who like you know disclosed I think in
20 and 2021 like that was the Navy that
you know was like these were these were
how many sightings we had and you know a
lot of these were actually like you know
unidentified. I think Stratton was
former Navy maybe as well and he formed
the whole UAP task force which was
basically like let's internally review
all of the data here.
>> So yeah the Navy feels like uh they hold
the deeper stuff. And what's interesting
is that they were picking up on that
detail because that film I told you that
I had done for the sci-fi channel
>> kind of similar to Dark Skies. I mean in
structure kind of thing, but it was the
Air Force in um in official denial. So
we pivoted to Navy after because we were
talking about the Harrington story and
we went well
>> it can't hurt. Let's go Navy. There is
one thing that he did say. I guess you
should lay the vial. Oh yeah. on the
table here. So there was a whole
thing when we again he didn't answer a
lot of our questions other than with
TUR. Like I don't have time for this. So
we said okay well what is it that you
want to talk about? Like you you're here
to tell us you know what's the deal?
It's it's access for influence, right?
You're going to you want to influence
our show. What do we get access to?
What's the information? And he said okay
here's this thing. It's all about the
moon.
>> He Well, he put he put a vial on the
table and you maybe seen him about that
big glass glass vial with a little black
screw top on it. People scientists use
them in labs and things like that. So he
put that on the table and said it's all
about that.
>> And so when we picked it up,
>> well we each got a slightly different
view of it. I Well, you saw it first.
>> So I picked it up. Well, first of all,
so he says it's all about the moon. And
he's also bringing this up because
they've seen our show Bible and in the
second season we go we deal with the the
space program, right? And he was like,
"You've got to move all that up."
>> So already we're getting a taste of
they're going to tell us like when to
write and how to write and all this
other stuff.
>> What we were going to do in the second
season, just so you know, is we were
going to do season we're going to go
decade by decade every season. So the
first season was the 60s. So in the
second season, there was going to be an
Apollo 18, even though that mission got
cancelled, right? So we were going to
>> that was our dark skies.
>> Now people have now speculated and done
movies about that, but back then that's
what we were going to do. So he knew
that we were going
>> moon forward and his whole point is
forget about all this other stuff. It's
all about the moon. He slams this little
vial down. I pick it up. I look at it
and I'm like and I shake it like it's a
snow globe, but there's no liquid in it.
and all of the the it's like gold flakes
except it looks like fool's gold because
actual gold doesn't really look that
gold. It's like more dull. Fool's gold
is more looks like gold. So it looks
like these it's like these gold flakes
and they everything just kind of floats
>> but there's no liquid.
>> What do you think he meant by that? It's
all about the moon and he puts the vinyl
mining.
>> He was implying things are being mined
on the moon.
>> And so then Bryce looks at it right and
>> I didn't shake it. So what I saw was
just, you know, I less than half of it
were these little flakes and I I just
looked at it and I I have no experience
with gold. I I didn't know.
>> But how do you go from like secrets
around the nature of reality to like
>> I don't know.
>> It actually deals with natural resources
possibly derived from the many.
>> I don't know. Again, this is and he was
saying it in a way that was like not
even casual. It was like
>> how could you not know this? It was he
had this like disdain for us. Jesse, I
have a theory, though, because that is a
great question. It's not like Brent and
I have not spent a lot of time debating
things like that. But here's a here's a
good example. What if his job was to
find out how gullible the two of us are?
Yeah. And and so at at some point, he
pulls out this thing to test us to see
if we'll buy that hookline and sinker.
And by the way, just to wrap put a
little wrap on because you said, "Did
you take the deal?" Obviously, if we'd
probably taken it, we wouldn't be on
your show. Maybe we would. I don't know.
But what happened was during that
meeting,
uh, I don't know why. I was just a
pragmatic producer and I knew that there
were people on our writing staff who who
depend on residuals, right? That's how
they feed their family. So, I started
asking I I know this sounds ridiculous,
but you I was in my executive producer
showrunner kind of mode, and I'm I'm
like, "So, how would that work? you
would give us ideas that you would want
us to put in scripts and then who would
get credit for how about the writer's
guild with the residuals and so I'm I'm
talking writer's guild stuff. Uh and
actually I did have one very specific
memory. One of the things that really
set him off is uh he was saying in the
second season you need to do more stuff
in the water.
>> Okay, more stuff in the water cuz Navy
and Usos and all that. And I I went into
this riff about uh well, you know, water
is very expensive. You got to get a tank
and you got to shoot in the tank and you
know that it takes forever in the
studios. And that just set him off. And
then when I started asking about the
writer's guild, he just got pissed off.
The two of them left. And so we thought,
okay, that's it. But it wasn't it. There
was one final beat on this thing and and
that was again time goes by. Brent gets
another call. Brent was the
>> I'm the weak link. I'm obviously I'm the
one with the mark.
>> Why? I still am wondering if that's John
Harrington being like, "Give him another
chance," you know, or something.
>> It's a great It's a great thought.
>> If this next beat was John Harrington,
that's a little terrible.
>> It's weird. It's strange. So, I guess
the the the thing was Bryce seems a
little difficult. I I I believe is what
they were saying. You know, he seems
like, you know, we wouldn't ordinarily
do this, but we do feel like maybe you
should have one final chance. So, that
would fit with a Harrington. So they
were trying to divide you guys
essentially have you
>> from their point of view I was good cop
he was bad cop right
>> so
>> or foolish cop I get this phone call you
my assistant comes in and goes it's JC I
was like I thought this was over with
>> and he said listen um obviously that
meeting did not go well um we're going
to give you one more chance here's
what's going to happen um I'm bringing
in someone much higher this time um it's
an admiral and his boat is coming into
San
>> there were there he said there was a
ship in the Long Beach Harbor
>> in the Long Beach Harbor
>> and and that they could not uh uh check
us into the ship because you can't have
you can't bring in a couple of Hollywood
screenwriters onto a ship to meet an
admiral to talk about UFOs. That ain't
going to work. Right. So I'm I'm like
listening to all of this and he said,
"So what's going to happen is he he is
going to come off of the ship with a
cover story of visiting a deceased
friend. We need you to meet at a
cemetery at midnight.
>> Here's the here's the name of the
gravestone you're going to meet at." And
all I heard was cemetery at Midnight.
I'm like, "Okay, here's I'm I'm a
writer, but this is what I'm seeing.
Bryce and I walk up. There is no name
that we're looking for. There's our
names on tombstones and two graves. And
as we're processing that, we get capped
from behind. And that's the way this
finally ultimately played out is Brent
walks into my office and says, "I just
uh had another call with JC." And I'm
like, "Yeah." And he gets to cemetery at
midnight, which I agree. I agree it's
insane. All we can do is bear witness to
what happened. So again, we're not
vouching that it seems reasonable. It
seemed insane to us. And I said to Brent
at the time, you know, I've got a wife
and I got three kids and there is no way
in hell I will be meeting anybody at a
cemetery at midnight. And so we stopped
calling them back. But but we have in
terms of doing this new show had to
think about what our mental state was at
that point. To be completely honest,
Jesse, we talked about it. You know, we
said
>> if this if if we were to push these guys
for a higher standard of proof and they
were able to prove who they were, would
we take the deal anyway?
>> What's what's the answer there?
>> And the answer was we just wouldn't. We
just felt like we would seed the
narrative uh thrust of our own show to
people who we didn't know what they
would demand of us. We didn't we didn't
feel good about him. I mean, the guy
that we we thought that the guy that
came and was so abusive to us in the in
the conference room would be our boss.
And we thought, we already have studio
bosses and network bosses. We don't need
a boss from O and I, right?
>> Do you guys think that any other
directors in Hollywood have taken
similar deals?
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>> Do you guys think that any other
directors in Hollywood have taken
similar deals?
>> Yes. And so there's one last interesting
piece of the puzzle that I'm going to
drop on the table now. Before we were
approached by JC at the deal, in fact,
before Dark Skies was even finished, we
were still scouting Dark Skies, doing
location scouting. This is you're you're
about to I know what you're going to do.
This is a location scout during the
pilot. Who that was right that was that
was directed by Toby Hooper, who we all
know is the director of Texas Chainsaw
Massacre and the director of
Poltergeist. And Brent and I had managed
through sheer luck because of his
relationship to get him hired to direct
our pilot. And he wanted to, you know,
in Hollywood, you got to protect your
material. There were some directors we
met with that said, "Okay, I'm going to
cut the first 45 pages. I'm changing all
this. This will be different. We won't
do that." But Toby came in and said, "I
like this script. I'll shoot it." So he
was our guy, and you were scouting
locations. So, we are in an area called
New Hall Ranch, which is just kind of
north of LA. You know, just what it
sounds like. It's just a big ranch kind
of rolling fields out, you know, near
the grapevine. And we're looking for a
place where we can shoot our crop circle
sequence. We have a big crop circle
sequence. And uh so we find this big
field and everything's great. At the end
of that location scouting day, we go
down to like a road house down in Newh
Hall and we're having dinner or lunch or
whatever it was and I'm sitting with
Toby because he's a friend of mine. I I
developed a script with him that was
going to be a low-budget independent
horror film and we'd become good friends
and he's a he was a great guy.
So, we're sitting there and all the
producers, Bryce, everyone else is kind
of talking and we're kind of and I said
to him, "So, Toby, you're you're finally
going to have one up on Stephen because
I know he's very competitive with his
buddy Steven Spielberg." And uh he goes,
"What do you mean?" And I said, "Well,
you're going to be the first one to put
a crop circle on film."
And uh and he hasn't done that yet. And
he's like, "Yeah, I'm never going to
beat Stephen in that category."
>> And I go, "What do you mean? Why?" and
he goes uh you know after Jaws he you
know he was like really big deal and he
apparently he got approached by some
guys from naval intelligence or
something and he came and offered him a
deal and uh
>> did he actually say naval intelligence?
Yes, he did. Oh, he did. All right. Wow.
>> And uh and yeah and he took it and he he
you know he got he got all sorts of
information. I mean Close Encounters is
based on a true story and I was like
what? and he goes, "Yeah, I mean ET too,
like he got access to a bunch of really
like interesting case files and stuff
and uh yeah, so this is all happening
before we are approached, right?" And so
then this is all part of what's going
through my head when the guy says, "I'm
here with Office of Naval Intelligence."
And so now kind of swing it all the way
around and ask that question again.
Would you take the deal? Well, I don't
know. Our show got cancelled at the end
of one season, right? We didn't take the
deal. I'm not saying that that's a
guarantee for success. And I'm not
saying that Stephen Spielberg's success,
massive success, isn't purely based on
talent. But in terms of the deal and
having access to information,
we already know other people have come
forward. We weren't the only ones
offered the deal. And why would we be,
right?
>> Well, it gets even crazier, right?
Because Dark Skies, there was active
intervention on behalf of Steven
Spielberg where you had to redo a whole
season to adequately differentiate it
from his projects.
>> This is a painful story to be honest.
Brent and I have not told this story
ever until this year. We we sort of took
the vow when we went down this road to
not because these are our our ideas are
the only ideas out there, but we just
said if we're going to tell this story,
if we're going to demand transparency
from other people, then we better be
fully transparent. And if you're going
to really look at the dark skies thing
from those postcards to the Harrington
aspect and to the, you know, the the JC
approach and the admiral and the
cemetery at midnight, there's a piece of
that puzzle and it happens in the
summer. Uh, well, the first time it
happened actually was back during that
pilot shooting and I got a phone call uh
on the set and it was the Columbia TV
executive and he said, "Listen, we have
a problem." Um they're making a movie.
It's a comedy uh called Men in Black at
Sony. Now that's where we were. Colombia
was under Sony. So at the same
production entity and um they're they're
very upset and you need to get your guys
out of the black suits today. And we had
called our guys in the script men in
black. And we were shooting them in
black suits and skinny ties and
sometimes in sunglasses, sometimes in
hats, but we were mostly they were men
in black. And I went into as as you
know, chapter and verse. Well, men in
black doesn't belong to anybody. It goes
back to the 50s. Mory Island and Gray
Barker and all the stuff that you're
aware of and many people in your
audience are aware of. And the guy cuts
me off and he goes, "Bryce,
let me put this in words that you can
understand." Which is about the most
condescending thing you could say to
anybody, but I've been insulted by
experts in Hollywood, so it didn't
really phase me. But what he said next
really did, and this is a quote. This is
an it's seared in my head. He says, "Get
your guys, get no, get your actors out
of the black suits today or we will shut
down your production and burn your
negative." [gasps]
>> Jesus.
>> Yeah. That's not We're going to cancel
your show. We're going to remove all
evidence, delete you.
>> Yeah, exactly. We're going to delete you
now [laughter]
>> from reality. So,
>> it's crazy. We're going to Men in Black
you if you don't get your Men in Black
out of the show.
>> Right on. It was terrifying. I mean, it
was really terrifying because we're
nobody, you know? I mean, he the people
making Men in Black were a very
successful director, uh, Barry
Sonnenfeld, and a successful producer,
Steven Spielberg, a successful company,
Amlin, with uh, you know, I mean, it was
just like, this is a big deal. So, we
caved. We said, "Okay, well, if that's
all we have to do." So, we started
shooting, you know, we we we did what
they wanted. No more men in black in the
suits. We started shooting.
>> Do you think that was a Sony thing or a
Spielberg Amblin thing?
>> Well, it was conveyed to us. We never
spoke to like look, we did not talk to
Steven Spielberg or Barry Soninfeld. We
had lawyers from Amlin talking to
lawyers from uh Colombia TV talking to
executives from Colombia TV talking to
us. Okay. Right. But so anything we're
saying here um definitely came to us,
you know, through lawyers and and
executives, but not directly. We never,
you know, had that kind of situation
>> and we thought we'd taken care of it. We
we actually did a fine replace in our
script. So everywhere we said men in
black, we had to come up with a new
name. It's not the best name, but it's
the only one out of thousands everybody
went through they could sign off on. We
called them cloakers. Okay? So the
cloakers dressed in green and blue and
gray and brown, right? And we thought we
had dodged a bullet. Okay? Flash forward
a year, it's now the summer uh prior to
the show that's going to be put on in
September. That's when shows debut
typically in old SC old style broadcast
television. That that's the big time.
And so that's what we're aiming for.
It's July. We are in the middle of
shooting,
you know, writing all the scripts and
shooting scripts and and we are on TV.
Uh they've accepted our pilot. They're
putting it on. They're they're promoting
the hell out of it. And that same
executive calls us and says, "I I'm
coming over today. We we we have to
talk." And he comes over and he says,
"Uh, I've just come from a room full of
lawyers." And and by the way, uh, while
I may mis slightly misquote it because
I'm in a room with you without my notes,
uh, I took notes on a yellow legal pad
as fast as I could in the meeting. And
then Brett and I got out of the meeting
and we sat at a computer and typed up
with our mutual recollection the exact
things. So we did we made, you know,
notes that are pretty good notes. And he
said, um, I've come from a a room full
of lawyers and things have gotten uh out
of hand and escalated.
>> They've escalated beyond all reason is
something like what he said. And we got
a list of 19 non-negotiable demands of
things that had to change in our pilot.
And these non-negotiable demands were
shocking. They were things like, "You
can't have an elevator because there's
an elevator in Men and Black. You can't
have your secret headquarters in
Washington DC. It has to be outside DC.
You can't um have a farmer. You cannot
have a farmer." And and here's the one
that'll rock your world. You can't do
your autopsy. There can be no autopsy in
Dark Skies
>> because there's an autopsy scene in Men
in Black.
>> That's crazy.
>> Yeah. That almost I'm I'm almost
wondering if the Office of Naval
Intelligence is like, "You should have
taken the deal.
>> You should have taken the deal."
[laughter] Right. And just there's an
important piece of context about like
why is this happening now? A year goes
by.
>> Well, when we were first approached, we
weren't on the air yet. We were just a
pilot waiting to go to see was it going
to get picked up.
>> At this point, it was right after we got
picked up and we were going to serious
>> and we were big. So now they had made us
they had made us change some things but
they were thinking well this may not get
picked up so we don't have to push it
any further. The minute it was going to
be on the air in September suddenly they
had to come in with like shock and awe.
That's so maddening and uh frustrating
and and and and annoying and and and to
you know just corroborate the the
Spielberg stuff you know obviously this
is to the audience always going to be
somewhat apocryphal of a story but you
have stuff that's so verifiably you know
real in Close Encounters of the Third
Kind for example you have crates with
TRW and locked on them
>> you have on on top of Devil's Tower it's
like they're playing tones kind of like
Valerie Ransone in the ether ship they
were like trying to communicate with,
you know, aliens. And then obviously
Jaylen Heinik, who was, you know, chief
astronomer of Blue Book is there. France
Rufo is playing Jacques Filet for the,
you know, the whole movie. You know, uh,
Dustin Hoffman has like a sunburn which
shows kind of this UV radiation
gravitational lensing thing, which you
can hear how put off talking about an
age of disclosure.
>> Richard Drifus.
>> Richard Drifus. Sorry, not Dustin
Hoffman. Yeah. Um,
>> he'd have been good in the role though.
>> It would have been great, right?
>> Like [laughter] look slightly like
>> And by the way, whether you believe it
or not, put that aside, there's a whole
kind of visual reference to Project
Serpo in there,
>> right? Cuz it's all of the guy. There's
12 guys dressed in suits ready to go on
an exchange program with their little
travel bag.
>> The little travel bags and the whole
thing.
>> Yeah. And they come out of the Oh, yeah.
Richard Dus is number 13. Yeah. And he's
the only one that gets
>> and Richard Drifus also gets obsessed
with like you know it's like the uh mash
what is it the the mashed potatoes
>> it's the shape of Devil's Tower where
all of this is going to happen. Right.
>> And so he's getting well you go
deconstruct that movie when he gets the
the ship over him and he gets the
sunburn he's getting a download.
>> Yeah.
>> Right. and he's getting that imagery and
it's almost like and then that's what
Melinda Dylan gets like the woman who
has the little kid that gets abducted.
She's drawing all these people are
getting a download of something they
become obsessed with. They all converge
on Devil's Tower, right? So, there was a
lot of stuff that was going on in that
movie that was either very preient or
was informed on to some degree
>> and ET very similar. you have this kind
of symbiotic relationship where you have
a sinking of like the heartbeats of the
child and ET. You have the, you know,
the mother's inability to see the ET
walking around the kitchen, but the kids
can all see it, right?
>> Um,
>> and you have that they have that story
of Spielberg screening it in the White
House for Reagan and then Spielberg says
this in an interview himself. He says
Reagan looks around. He says there are
about five people in this room who knows
that everything they just saw on that
screen is absolutely real.
>> Yes.
>> Crazy talk, huh? And then and then
Reagan goes and talks to the United
Nations and says, "Wouldn't it be great
if we all united to fight off an alien
invasion?"
>> I occasionally think how quickly our
differences worldwide would vanish if we
were facing an alien threat from outside
this world.
And yet I ask you, is not an alien force
already among us?
>> Yeah.
>> Crazy stuff.
>> The ET thing, we haven't done the
episode yet, but we're going to do a
whole episode. There was It's actually
based on a true story, a case. I know
that. Yeah. In Kentucky or something.
>> Well, that's what got it started.
>> That's what got it started. That was the
impetus for it where a far a family
found an alien on a farm and they hid it
in their barn and the whole thing. It
was a movie called Night Skies, which he
was developing as a producer.
>> I had no idea. Yeah.
>> I want to look into the original case.
That's wild.
>> Oh, it's Yeah, it's very
>> They hid an ET in the closet or
something in the actual story in the
barn. Okay.
>> Yeah. And it was communicating with a
kid who was autistic.
>> Oh my god.
>> Yeah.
>> That is fascinating.
>> Yeah. Totally. So, the point being is is
that whatever his official line is,
there's evidence when you go back and
look at some of these movies that he was
he had some level of access.
>> No, he's got it. He's got it cuz you
watch Disclosure Day and it's just like
there too many deep cut things where
it's just a little in inongruous with
his interview where like he'll say like
yeah I don't know his 2017 New York
Times article Leslie Kane and Ralph
Blumenthal it's like you know got me
into this this stuff
>> and then you realize he's like you know
blurbed like James Fox deepcut
documentaries before like out of the
blue he's like this is compelling and
you're you're watching the movie and
it's like it's Not even, you know, UFO
disclosure. Spoiler alert. It's like
parasychology disclosure. You know,
people's uh perceptive abilities and
ability to like, you know, kind of
download information and assume
identities and remote view. Yes.
>> And stuff. And so it begets like an
extremely deep knowledge that,
>> you know, probably shows an organic
interest that's deeper than what he lets
on in the interviews, but also maybe,
you know, maybe you're being fed some
stuff, too. It's you can't go wrong with
Spielberg and UFOs. Every story is
great. Just to wrap that up, we did
shoot 11 days of a different, you know,
to make him happy. Um, so that cost us a
lot of money and there's two versions of
the Dark Skies pilot that are out there
because of that. And the only reason
that we survived because they, this
executive said they want us to give the
money back to NBC and fire you guys for
stealing your idea from him. So, we had
to create a whole legal defense and
everything. And it turns out that the
guy that ran NBC, uh, Don Olmire turned
out to be our patron saint because he
said to them, "Oh," he got wind of it
and he said, "Oh, so let me get this
straight. You want us to accept this,
but they've already turned in the pilot
to me. You know what? I'm going to air
it.
>> I'm going to air it just the way it is.
F you."
>> Yeah.
>> Right. Wow.
>> So then the 19 non-negotiable demands
became
>> like five or six negotiable demands.
>> And we um um but by [clears throat] the
way, one of the most bizarre moments in
this whole thing though is while that
was all going on, my agent called me and
said,
>> uh I've got an Amberlin wants to talk to
you about a video game and you get to
meet with Steven Spielberg. And and I
said, are they aware that they're doing
this to us right now? And my agent said,
"I don't think so. Do you want me to
tell him?" And I said, "Don't please
don't tell him." He goes, I said,
"Should I take the meeting?" He goes,
"Well, you've already been damaged once.
Don't damage yourself twice. Take the
meeting." And so, in the middle of this,
I went and sat in Steven Spielberg's
office waiting. He comes in, shakes my
hand, says, "Great to see you again." I
hadn't met him, but whatever. Very nice.
Hits me on the back and says, "Uh, big
fan of Dark Skies."
>> Whoa. Oh, it's like a weird power play
or something. Or do you think that's
like he's just unaware like the left
hand's not talking to the right hand and
he actually just likes
>> you got to give aware
>> priority uh thought maybe on that
because he seemed genuine. Both Brent
and I have worked with him on various
project. I worked on Taken as you you
pointed out and the only thing I would
say about uh the meetings we had on
Taken I
>> he look we're all we got three guys here
we're all interested in UFOs and we
could probably off air go another 10 or
11 hours you know going what about that
what about that
>> he felt like that to me he felt I mean
you know a lot of what he gets credit
for you know putting into his his films
you know if you're widely read and and
once He made Close Encounters. Virtually
everybody that probably talked to him
who had any story at all or ideas on
UFOs said, "Hey, you know, have you ever
heard about?" He seemed extremely well
informed, but he wasn't throwing out
ideas that where I was like, I never
heard of that before, right? He just he
he's just a passionate guy. Um great
filmmaker obviously. Um and and it was
interesting to uh to work on on Taken
and uh I think he got a lot right in
Taken.
>> Yeah. No, he gets a lot right every
time. I mean, we were just talking about
>> the serendipitous interactions that
weave together to like, you know, result
in some sort of deliberate end point and
you have like timeline managers. And if
you watch again, uh, uh, disclosure day,
uh, spoiler alert, um, Coleman Domingo's
character is like a kind of he defects
from like the, you know, terrestrial
intelligence apparatus, like he's like a
CIA guy who leaves,
>> uh, and he is always on these calls
with, you know, uh, Josh Oconor and he's
he's like do it's like a set design sort
of situation. multiple sets and he's
directing all of that and that feels
very important and symbolic like he is
reality manager and the whole movie
starts with
>> uh basically like a scene from like WWE
>> staged event
>> it's a staged event and everybody's
wearing USA America hats and it's as if
uh what we are watching is totally fake
and and and but that is that's politics
right
>> and so that that felt very symbolic as
well and there's something going on
above that. And that deals with these
sort of you know this almost like deep
state intel timeline war of people
trying to almost imminentize the
apocalypse of disclosure or um you know
stave that off in a way that is
supposedly protective of some
homeostasis of society but in in reality
just protecting
>> the vested interests at the top.
>> Totally. And look, to add to Bryce's
kind of cognitive dissonance, I was
invited to come and do an interview on
>> Taken,
>> which is weird. Like, so both the two
writers on Dark Skies are invited to
come and write on Taken.
>> Well, that's my interpretation of them
reaching out to you about the video game
and then you is like they want they want
to fold you in,
>> right? I wish they had.
>> Well, but the hell follow
>> but then you're kind of under control,
too. You're not like doing your like
other alien rogue thing that's like off
script.
>> Absolutely.
>> So, but follow this line. So, I can't do
that job because I have a deal at Sony.
So, Bryce does the job. Then a couple
years later, I'm offered a job on a show
with Barry Senfeld as the executive
producer called Secret Agent Man. He
never mentioned Dark Skies, right? Um,
but one of the people that tried to get
us canceled is suddenly hiring me on
another show, which is weird. Now, cut
to a few years later from that, I'm
working at EA, Electronic Arts, game
company in LA, and we're working on a
big Command and Conquer project. And one
of the other games projects in that area
is in that studio is a project that
Steven Spielberg, an original IP,
brought to EA
>> cuz he wanted to make a video game. Best
way to silence your enemies is to hire
them.
>> So, get this.
>> The game was codenamed LM O, and it was
about a woman who is human but has alien
capabilities running around using the
power of empathy uh to disarm people
because the government is chasing her.
>> Whoa, sounds familiar.
>> Sounds exactly like Disclosure Day.
>> That was that was the whole game. And
the only reason it didn't get made was
they couldn't figure out. It was a cool
idea. They couldn't figure out how to
make that work interactively
>> as a game in 2004 or whenever it was.
>> And that's exact Emily Blunt's character
like shape shifts and does kind of
signature management where everybody
sees, you know, the their former child
or their, you know, or their, you know,
their their ex-wife for their, you know,
whatever. And and then they sort of get
manipulated into doing things as a
result of that.
>> Yeah. in that final.
>> So, he had obviously been interested in
telling that story 20 years earlier.
>> Well, he he told a version of it in
Taken. The
Dakota Fanning young girl has those same
kind of psychic powers and and um and
empathy,
>> right?
>> Yeah. He's clearly been so deep on this
topic for so long. What was interesting
to me about Disclosure Day is the end of
the movie, I think, almost felt, you
know, exciting and cool and wild because
you're seeing, you know, this, again,
big spoiler alert, this drop of all
these alien files and, you know,
crashes, real historical crashes, as we
all know, and and and alien bodies and
stuff.
>> But it's almost like the real disclosure
was actually like the the the the entire
movie leading up to that. Yeah. around
the kind of deeper threads of like, you
know, parasychological interactions
between people and then at the end it's
like this like arbitrary kind of like
data dump of alien stuff and you're like
wait where are you getting that? Where
are the aliens coming from? What what is
all of this mean?
>> Yes.
>> And so the disclosure is really like the
unspoken stuff
>> in the beginning. I felt the exact same
way because I felt at the end the
disclosure that the public was getting
right in the movie the public was the
disclosure we're getting right now which
is just a bunch of videos with no
context and whatnot
>> but better videos
>> but better videos
>> but but the the real disclosure to your
point happened
>> outside of the public's eye it was the
story we were being shown
>> right and so there's this whole meta
quality about that movie that I think it
raises a a lot of questions if you go
all the way back to well what does
Stephen what did Steven Spielberg know
when did he know it and with disclosure
day as we found out the hard way he's
got to be one of the most powerful if
not the most powerful person in
Hollywood right they can get someone to
say burn the negative
>> um what are the chances that a man at
his age you know going on 80 last couple
years of his filming career potentially
He's going to invest in a movie called
Disclosure Day without any guarantees
that it will not be irrelevant by the
time his movie comes out,
>> right?
>> I'm serious.
>> No, it's it's what [clears throat] are
the ch again coincident? Is it a
coincidence that it just it somehow all
worked out? I've seen him in interviews
say, "Yeah, it's just like it's amazing
it's coming out at the exact right
time."
It's like well yes but then he's also
taken it much further in some of these
interviews which is saying the movie is
much more truth than fiction.
>> Yeah he is saying that now
>> he's literally coming out and saying
that
>> but then he'll also at the same time
he'll say I don't know anything that you
don't know. I don't know if that's
correct. He might know a few more things
than the average person. He
>> he did raise the bar for himself because
how many when's the last trailer that
you saw that has the director
interviewed in the trailer? That's what
his last trailer was. And what is he
saying in the trailer? This stuff is
true.
>> Right.
>> Right. So, he's got a movie called
Disclosure Day. He's in the trailer
saying it's true. That's probably why
his movie is polarizing in the UFO
community. Uh
>> I I sometimes wonder, you know, like um
you have the video of the two grays that
uh Joshua Connor tell shows his
girlfriend. So, you know, he leaves this
kind of private corporation. He defects
and he's kind of this Ed Snowden type
who like takes with him the the secrets
of like the alien presence, the nature
of reality which should not be held from
the 8 billion people on Earth. and he's
showing this video uh to his girlfriend
and you see these two grays for like a
second and then it like kind of moves
away from that and then you see some
other really kind of intense stuff and I
wonder you know like those those two
grays probably you know aren't real but
like you know you have that whole data
drop at the end as well with all the
videos back to back to back to back. Is
there one thing Oh, that's
>> in that entire video, an entire video
montage that is real.
>> Like, I wonder I wonder if there's one
thing in the movie that is a real
artifact. And then you can always then
that's how you inoculate the public.
They've all seen the thing and then you
point back and you say that thing that
you saw was actually real and you know
you've you've tested the waters. It
wasn't destabilizing and then you just
and be like, "Oh, I already saw that."
Okay,
>> Jesse, that is the Easter egg of all
Easter eggs. if that that happened.
>> Well, to take to take that one step
further, uh my buddy Chris Ramsey, who
runs a great show called Area 52, he has
a theory that uh uh maybe the UFO flap
that showed up, the drones over New
Jersey in November of 2024, this thing,
you know, disclosure day was filmed in
New Jersey in late 2024.
>> And we all know that UFOs seem to show
up when you like move material around.
Yes.
>> And so in like exotic science
experiments and stuff. So, like, was,
you know, some of what was used in the
movie actually real? And was that
provoking any of the flyover stuff in in
Jersey? Were they moving a UFO around?
Did they want to, you know, show you a
little piece of a UFO? You didn't know
it was a UFO? Who knows?
>> Well, New Jersey is, you're right,
they're they're shooting in New Jersey
at the same time. All these drones are
flying around New Jersey.
>> Yeah. Around New Jersey,
>> right?
>> Yeah. Pickatenny Arsenal is right there.
And I have a friend named Rob Jones
who's uncovered all sorts of stuff
around Lockheed kind of divesting itself
eventually of this craft uh to I think
this like Veraritoss capital and he he
kind of speculates that the craft ends
up uh in Jersey in Pikatini Arsenal.
>> Later on when I talk about the the
lineage of where I think that material
went.
>> What's the company that you think
controls the material? I believe the
company that currently holds that
material is a company by the name of
Paritin and they have offices at
Pikatini Arsenal.
>> Whoa, crazy.
>> Yes. So, yeah, it's it's a little
interesting. So, who knows?
>> Fascinating. Something else you said
just to touch on. I don't know if you're
aware of this, but um as you said, Josh
Oconor at one point says 8 billion
people have the right to know the truth.
M Did you know that in the first trailer
that came out, the line in the trailer
was 7 billion people have the right to
know the truth?
>> Which set everybody off cuz people were
saying either they don't know how many
people are on the planet, which seems
unlikely. Or maybe it doesn't take place
in the present or maybe a billion people
are alien hybrids or whatever. But isn't
it interesting? It's in the trailer
>> and then it's not in the movie.
>> Wow. It's been updated for the movie.
When I saw the movie the first time
because what happened was Bryce and I
did a a need to know episode where we
talked about that and we went down that
rabbit hole. We were like why would they
say 7 billion like there's only a couple
ways to interpret that. Um and then when
I'm sitting watching the movie and they
says 8 billion and I'm like is this the
Mandela effect? Like what's what is
going on? And I'm thinking am I losing
my mind? Like I we had a whole
conversation about this in an so after
the movie I like had to go back and
watch our episode. I'm like no no no
that happened that happened
>> but why would you change that?
>> I don't know seems possibly deliberate
or maybe they got for the seven and
that but that you don't really you would
that's not an oversight that you make on
a movie of that level.
>> Think how many people had to see it in
order to actually become a trailer on on
the
>> before that trailer. Hundreds of people
saw that including Spielberg and Cap and
all the all the gang. The there's only
one I mean there is one theory which is
you know full well that it's wrong but
it's kind of your little thing that
you'll drop in and and get people
talking speculating about
>> it's like either you know the dystopian
place I would go is like you're you're
predicting some sort of population
reduction thing. Hopefully it's not
that.
>> Uh you could be saying that a billion
people are aliens or alien hybrids or
something. So they're not people.
Whatever the case is, the fact that it
was out there and then it was changed
with no with no explanation to me feels
very inauthentic. So the whole sh the
whole movie as Spielberg's talking about
it is like this is his vision. This is
what he always wanted to believe was the
truth and he believes is more truth than
fiction. Okay. But then the marketing of
it, you're messing with people's minds
by putting out this like that feels like
it's completely counterproductive. Yeah.
So I I it's really strikes me as like I
don't understand
who made that choice. If it was a
choice, if it was an accident, that even
seems more preposterous. So what is
going on? I don't know. It's so
fascinating though. And there's so many
deep threads where it's like you have
this almost invisible college
equivalent. you know, Invisible College
obviously is this, you know, coined by
Jacqule and and Jaylen Heinik, of
course,
>> but it's like uh, you know, these this
rag tag team woven together through
serendipitous events where they're
calling each other just at the right
time to like, you know, not get killed
in the nick of time and, you know, hide
the hard drive sort of thing, right? And
then you have the the kind of
establishment structure that's really
trying to just stave off disclosure, but
they're sort of getting manipulated by
this like higher higher force that can
even like cause defections among them.
Mhm.
>> And uh you have Nathan Twinning left,
you know, 12 intelligence officers left
us and this is Wardex who like holds the
secrets of UFOs
>> and they say Nathan Twinning and Nathan
Twinning is probably Nathan Twining
who's head of air material command 1947.
He wrote the Twining memo. He was
rumored Majestic 12 and 12 people are
missing. But they're sort of
>> defectors from the intelligence agency
which I that I find that really
interesting. like they're they're they
have like some bizarre higher almost
alien calling. Yeah. Which maybe
Harrington did. And and and I'll I'll
I'll I'll end this rant soon. But you
you have a a cryptos conundrum as well.
This book that is written by Chase
Brandon who's this Hollywood CIA
liaison. He's a longtime guy. You've met
him. So I want to talk about that. and
he worked with, you know, Stanton
Freriedman and and writes this book and
he says, you know, the in the prologue,
he quotes Francis Bacon and he says, "So
some truths are so strange that you have
to hide them in fiction. They must be
told in fiction.
>> Cover of fiction is what our our Dark
Sher was based on." There you go. By the
way, I have a quick Nathan Twining
thing. One reason he might have done
that is for people who go, "Oh, what's
who is that name?" If they look it up,
Twining is famous for saying the
phenomenon reported is neither uh
visionary nor fictitious.
>> Yeah, that's his quote. Okay. And that's
a great quote. So, it's sort of like
that's a little Easter egg to get people
to talk about it. But yes, Chase
Brandon, should we talk a little Chase?
Well, because he he kind of predicted
the Majestic 12 or he writes about it in
a way that's really deeper than, you
know, all the the Majestic 12 really
came from these like, you know,
sequential, you know, document drop
memos from 80s to the '90s,
>> right?
>> But but but a lot of that stuff, you
know, outside of maybe the first batch,
which seemed legit, seemed like kind of
passage material and fake and meant to
maybe catch some Russian spies or
something. But uh the way Chase Brandon
writes about this you know group they
come out of the office of strategic
assessment which was a subgroup of the
office of strategic services and you
have this guy named Chalmers who's this
math wiz and you have this sacred object
which also shows up in disclosure day
>> and they all it's like these beings show
up to them and know more about them than
they do and they have these almost
near-death experiences or experience
this liinal space where they're taught
more about reality. Then when they come
back and they come back and they sort of
forget their purpose and they have to
get reactivated to remember their
purpose. And all of this feels so, you
know,
prevalent and ubiquitous in disclosure
day
>> where you have these like almost like
star seeds being activated or something.
And I think the red cardinal activating
them. I wonder if that's it's not a red
cardinal, it's bluebird which is you
know the prem ultra. Yes. Sort of thing
which anyway. I don't know.
>> [laughter]
>> Yeah.
>> Well, and all the animals in Disclosure
Day kind of people criticize them as
being CGI kind of thing and and not
being, you know, obviously perfect. And
yet Spielberg has so much money that he
ought to make them perfect if he wanted
to. So they're not perfect by choice.
>> Maybe they're not perfect uh because
they're not really the animals. They're
what your brain is perceiving aliens as.
Right. Yes.
>> So that might might be that.
>> Yeah, it was intentionally a little off.
But that's meant to be like when you
have those experiences and something
feels off,
>> it's because you're in the phenomenon,
right?
>> It's not because it's bad CGI. It's
because your brain is having to process
something that is not normal.
>> Yes. Yeah. It's like uh I think Whitley
Streber is another interesting kind of
you know intersection between
entertainment and you know ufology. He
he talks about like owl synchronicities.
Absolutely. And sometimes you have these
experiences with animals where you're
like h it felt like a little strange
that did that felt a little more
intentional than like this random animal
thing.
>> Absolutely.
>> You know, and that all of these things
sound so ridiculous and they always have
kind of mud or plausible deniability
attached to them which is how as we know
from Jacqu Leair or John Ke that's how
the phenomenon sort of works. It's it's
has this trickster element where it's
like you'll never get the
incontrovertible thing that you can tell
the whole world. This will always be
this little wink just for you.
>> Yep.
>> Although it but you know you're talking
about Whitley Strieber. He is helpful in
us sort of deciding this thing is all
very authentic because remember it's his
book that he puts out I think in 87 and
it's got that classic photo or not photo
artistic rendition of the craze. Okay.
That got a lot of people to buy it.
That's a great story in itself and you
know kudos to the artist. But what
happened in the aftermath? Uh nearly
half a million people wrote letters to
to um uh to Whitley and his wife and
said when I saw your book that made me,
you know,
>> think about it. It activated me to
remember things. Now, I don't think
500,000 people are making up those
letters that they
>> I've had people on my show who said they
they're walking by and and that's how
they remember their abduction
experience. They see the cover of
Communion at Barnes & Noble or
something.
>> Exactly. So, I mean, those people are
activated and they're not all crazy. So,
there is a a core truth here that that
needs to be, you know, recognized
>> clearly. Yeah. Which Yeah, go for it. I
was just gonna say, so it it it
What what Bren and I have been trying to
assemble is sort of what is the timeline
of what's really gone on in this sort of
dance between Hollywood and UFOs, the
phenomenon and secrecy.
>> Because if if our experience was a
simple one-off, Jesse, then it'd be
like, well, okay, that's interesting.
Don't know if they're telling the truth.
Don't know if they're not. Who knows?
What are we going to do about it? But if
it's part of a lineage of events, then
it becomes a little more important. So,
for example, when we realized that the
Harrington story is more likely true
than not, given, you know, David Grush
uh trying to get him under oath and tell
his story, we started to look at the the
timeline. Well, you think about it. What
happens in 47? Yeah, there is Roswell
and it's the military and they don't
want to talk about anything. Then movies
start getting made in the 50s that are
about flying saucers and a couple of
them have CIA people that are part of
them. But what happens in 1953? The
Robertson panel gets convened by the
CIA. I'm getting to Chase Brandon,
right? It gets convened by the CIA and
what do they come up with? They say,
"Yeah, we got to really make people not
take this very seriously." That seems to
be a policy statement they come up with.
But what do they decide? That might be a
very specific answer. Let's call up
Walt. Walt Disney. Let's get him on
board. And then what happens in the
aftermath? Walt Disney's guy Ward Kimell
thinks they're going to do a documentary
and they're going to have real uh uh
footage given by the government. That
goes forward and then it gets pulled
away. Then in the 70s you got Emagger
and uh and uh Lyndon Molton Howler and
who think they're also going to get
footage then it get pulled away. Then in
the 80s you've got that the whole thing
with the Majestic 12 documents. But then
that's where our story fits in. In the
90s, it seems like there is not only a
confluence of UFO projects. I mean, in
1996 when we were just going on the air,
Time and Newsweek had aliens on their
cover the same week,
>> right? Just like Bruce Springsteen
before, right? And suddenly everybody's
talking aliens and and you got the
Roswell uh uh anniversary coming up in
97, right? And that's where this Chase
Brandon guy shows up in Hollywood and
he's opening up a
some kind of CIA operation where they
can advise people on things like this.
>> It's like a he's going to be the
official liaison between the CIA and and
based on some of the people that have
come forward to us and we're uncovering
more all the time. Uh it does look like
there's this big bubble of interest in
trying to self-disclose or or use
Hollywood as a bit more of a authentic
conduit. And it looks like that's going
forward. But then what happens? 2001
9/11
>> and suddenly the idea that we're going
to disclose aliens doesn't seem as good
a policy when you're at war with
terrorism. And Dick Cheney is leading
it. And we all know Dick Cheney probably
is involved in this mess to a certain
degree.
>> Brush said that he was the last guy to
be at the pyramid when you know we had
some vital legacy UFO program structure.
>> So disclosure goes away for a while and
then it's like okay we got a new plan.
We're going to get Hillary Clinton in
because she believes in it. She'll do
it. But then she loses, right? and and
then you say, "Well, let's, you know,
maybe Tom Dong can go do his thing for a
while." And now it's just too big a
thing. You can't hold it off. And we get
disclosure day coming out. At the same
time, Age of Disclosure is coming out.
At the same time, Trump is disclosing
documents and things. There's there's a
continuity that seems to be laying
itself out about how we have sort of
muddled our that's how I guess that's
the word I would use. We are muddling
toward disclosure. M
>> Bryce, you said something really
interesting early on. You said that uh
when you were working with Ross
>> Coldart, you met Grush alongside him and
that you conducted
>> maybe the first ever interview with
David Grush.
>> I didn't conduct it. Ross did, but I put
it on camera.
>> You put it on camera.
>> At your house.
>> At my house.
>> At your house.
>> Yeah.
>> What was that like? That's so weird.
>> Did he learn anything interesting or
>> Well, I mean it it's become an
interesting artifact. I mean, because
again, what Brett and I are all about,
and it seems like you're about it, too,
which is let's bear witness to this
moment in history. So, let's all sort of
be transparent, add our little piece,
maybe all the pieces together, we'll
assemble this mosaic of of contact and
disclosure or whatever. So, yeah. Um, I
had heard about this source Ross had
because we'd been doing the show for a
while, and he hadn't named him until
then. did and then I knew about Dave
Crush and then one day it's like hey I'm
going to be in LA on next Thursday or
whatever it was and so we all went to
lunch uh me and Ross and another guy
that was involved in help setting up the
news nation thing and Dave Grush and uh
everybody thought well we better again I
thought we were doing it for practice
the idea is like we don't want Dave to
fold his cards on NewsNation and do a
bad interview let's give him some
practice Um, and so everyone looks at
me. You're the Hollywood guy. Don't
can't you get a camera over here? And so
I called my son who's the director. I
said, "Hey Jared, do you think you could
uh come over here right now and shoot an
interview for me?" And like all kids,
he's like, "Well, you know, Dad, I'm
kind of busy right [laughter] now."
>> And I said, "I'll give you 500 bucks."
And he said, "I'll be right over."
So he came over and we, you know, Dave
Crush was in, you know, cargo shorts and
a t-shirt for this thing. And it was
just a practice thing. And to be honest
with you, if you look at it right now,
it looks more like a hostage video than
than anything else cuz he's up against
the wall. But yeah, so that is the first
time he ever told his story on video.
>> Did he say anything interesting?
>> Well, I everything he said was
interesting to me. I mean, this is the
first time I heard things like about the
Italian uh
>> magenta magenta crash,
>> anything above and beyond what came out
in the news nation.
>> Well, see, that's just it. Um, not to
me. I felt like uh because the first
time I heard it when he laid it out in
my house, I was reeling as a lot of
people were from the news nation, but
remember the news nation thing Ross did
is was an hour with commercials taken
out. So, not and and with introductions
and all that. So maybe Grush is on
camera spewing whatever he's going to
spew for 30 minutes, but you know, we
ran the camera for 2 and 1/2 hours at my
house and I was there for the News
Nation taping and that went like 3 hours
plus. So there's a lot of tape and so
what we had always said is at some point
Ross was on board for this. We had
always said at some point these are
artifacts of history and we're going to
put the whole thing out there. Mhm.
>> And I thought that's what was going to
happen. U and uh people have gotten cold
feet and said you can't do it.
>> Gotcha. Anything you heard?
>> Oh, it I I know
>> in the room where you were like this is
a really crazy fact that like you've
held since then that you think the
public should know or
>> No, I wish I I wish I will say that
Crush's attorneys seem to feel like
something was said. I need to go review
all these tapes with a fresh mind
because the way I remember it was uh
very similar. And although uh my
pressure to actually put this out there
has been met with uh like I asked Dave
Gush a few weeks ago if I could put it
out because it was three years and he
waited about two minutes and wrote me
back and said, "Bryce, I do not give you
permission to do that."
>> So I think his attorney has said you
don't need this trouble, David.
>> Yeah. I mean, I understand that he's in
a probably 360 exposed position. It's an
interview from a long time ago and
>> he probably doesn't feel he looks great
and and you know, and he he probably
doesn't have the time to go review it,
but I would, you know, I would like to
review it. I'd like you to air it. I'd
like you to just put it out as a show.
[laughter] You know what I'm saying? I I
don't think that I I I if there was
something historically strange that he
said in that interview that he didn't
say to Colart, um that would be worthy
and maybe that would be the one a lawyer
wouldn't want him to put out. But I sat
there through both and did not see the
difference.
>> I'm I think it might end up having a
really positive unintended effect of
like
>> this is this guy in this totally candid
like not media trained like first little
trial run and he was consistent on all
of the same things that he said.
>> Yeah, I think that's just a a important
piece of history just like for example
the news nation thing. Why why did they
change their minds about that? Ross said
all along that the whole thing would go
up on the internet.
>> And then people changed their minds and
said that they couldn't do it.
>> I'll tell you what, I'll make you a
deal. I will I will watch them the whole
thing and if I find anything, I'll give
you a call.
>> Okay. [laughter]
[gasps] Brent, you uh are a lifelong
experiencer.
>> I am. Yes. I'm kind of the molder to
Bryce's skull.
>> Oh, there you go.
>> I don't do autopsies, though. [laughter]
>> Well, I want to hear more about that cuz
I, you know, in researching you, there's
some really trippy things that you've
experienced. Um, and I don't know
exactly what order to go, maybe
chronologically, but um
>> Yeah. [laughter] Well, and I I don't
want to turn this into a a Brentfest,
but um I want to give you a couple
things, though, because I I think I'm
going to if you bear with me, I'm going
to bring this all the way back to
Disclosure Day in a very strange way.
>> And that's really kind of the microcosm
of my life. Um if you look back at a
bunch of things that have happened to
me, there's weird pattern recognition
that you can apply and say what seemed
like a curse or chaotic was actually
very beneficial and was a sequence of
events. And sometimes they're out of
time, right? Like this had to happen for
this to happen. No, this had to happen
for this to make sense,
>> right? You know, it's like, so I say all
of that because I think that the couple
things you need to understand are
to start with, I need to give you my
philosophy which has been born of all of
this. And that is that we look at the
phenomenon um as this broad kind of way
of saying that it's it's like the
Twilight Zone. You kind of get into it
and it things just don't make sense.
You're no longer in consensus reality.
So, but we also do something where we
put things in silos or in in buckets and
we say there's UFOs and aliens and we
say there's the paranormal. That's very
different. And then we say there's the
afterlife. I've had experiences across
all three of those and I'm saying it's
all the same thing
>> in that the the commonality is
consciousness, right? It was the
commonality is those experiences are
being filtered through my consciousness.
And so I have a version of a UFO or a
UAP experience. I have a version Brent's
version of a paranormal experience and I
have a version of the afterlife as
Brent, right? And it's that continuity
of my consciousness is what makes all of
those unique and authentic.
To anyone else, it's like, well, that's
just an interesting story, right? Until
you've lived it, until you've
experienced it, that's the only truth
that I believe you can count on. But
because I've had all of these strange
experiences, I realize everyone else is
just trying to think of it like what's
the objective way, the rational way to
view this. Let's just look at like it's
too hard when you start lumping in
paranormal and UFO. Now suddenly I'm on
Skinwalker Ranch. It's all confusing.
But it is all part of a spectrum. It is
all informed by some by one kind of
idea, large idea, probably the biggest
elephant in the room if you ask me about
human consciousness.
>> I think so too. Uh and I want to get
into the core stories, but I I fully
agree. I think um if you actually get
into like kind of the upper echelons of
you know former program or program
adjacent people and what they talk about
and the way they talk whether it's Jake
Barber feeling emotional and locked on
to the craft that sort of maybe either
emotionally guiding or manipulating him
depending on how you want to look at it.
>> Um or it's Jim Latsky talking about like
some higher platonic order and like you
know like the mental interfaces and that
sort of thing. you get into far deeper
truths which the office of naval
intelligence has also always been into
this idea of parasychology they were
working handinand glove with the you
know Princeton parasychology lab with
Stanford research institute
>> and um ultimately you know if you go
look at those experiments like random
event generators this idea that the mind
can sort of non-locally affect these
what are supposedly supposed to be
random uh you know quantum mechanical
events everything else that you say has
to be downstream of that.
>> Absolutely. your reality is has to be
sort of local to you and sense made by
you and that you know you have a unique
interface and I have a unique interface
and I think these objects that we call
UFOs in these hangers exist at the
boundary
>> where and and they're they're sort of um
>> you know I think if there if there is a
scop here it's like space aliens like
that is a quick snap to grid analytical
conclusion that like is very premature
um so So, but okay, I want to get into
your your whole the whole story.
>> Yeah. So,
>> um the first thing you need to know is
that um for reasons I cannot explain
that really make no sense, I have seen
six people die in pretty horrific ways
right around me um throughout my life.
And they were all strangers,
>> right? And so there was no and I've
never worked in the military. I've never
worked in a hospital. I haven't been a
paramedic. It's not like it was all just
crazy weird uh like final destination
type sequence, but I was in the middle
of them.
>> What?
>> Right now, so you go, if that happened
to you once, that would be like a
defining moment in your life, right?
>> Right. Twice you go, wow, like that's
weird. Three times you go, okay, it's
you, dude. Like you're a magnet for this
stuff. Four, five, six,
>> I'm going to leave the [laughter]
>> But you're not a stranger anymore. So
you did a really smart thing.
>> Okay, nice. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. We're
friends now.
>> You're safe. We're good.
>> Well played. [laughter]
>> Wise. Uh so, um I'm not going to get
into all of them, but I there's a couple
I want to highlight. The first one
happened to me when I was 5 years old.
Um I was living in Berkeley at the time.
Um was before we moved to Walnut Creek.
And there's uh the Berkeley Hills has
this park at the top called Tilden Park.
And uh there's a road called Marin
Boulevard or Avenue or something which
kind of comes down the side of the
Berkeley Hills in a road that just kind
of does this. It's like a roller
coaster. And I had been up there with my
dad and we were in an old VW bug and I
used to love coming down that road cuz
it was like steep, right? And then so I
would I was sitting there holding on to
kind of the the the bar in front of the
the glove box riding the car down,
right? And we're kind of going down and
and I notice kind of out of the corner
of my eye that there's someone's washing
their car. Uh and the water is kind of
running off and it's and I'm thinking,
"Oh, we're chasing the water as it's
going down the hill." And I'm thinking,
"Oh, this is so cool." And in front of
us, which I'm not really paying
attention to, there's a girl on a
motorcycle. She's in like jean shorts
and a halter top, no helmet cuz it's
This was 68.
>> And I'm watching her. and watching the
water. And she turns and as she's
turning, the water has just gone across
the street that she's turning into. And
when the back tire hits that water, her
bike slides, stops, flips her, she goes
flipping over and hits, they used to
have metal fenders in those days, hits
the metal fender, knocks her head right
off, it rolls into the road, and my dad
has to slam on the brakes to not hit her
head. Oh, dude. So, and I'm watching all
of this, right?
>> Hanging on. And my dad turns my head and
says, "Don't look." Right? And he gets
out of the car to go deal with this.
Well, of course, my head's on a swivel.
That's all I can do is look.
>> But I'm 5 years old, so in my mind, I'm
thinking, okay, well, I'm not I'm not
focusing on the fact that the body is
just flailing and blood everywhere and
whatnot. I'm focusing on the head,
thinking, "Oh, well, they can just put
the head back on like you would like a
G.I. Joe doll or something." Right. It
didn't really occur to me,
>> but that happened. Right. So, that's the
first death that I saw. The second death
that I saw was
I Well, actually, this is the third
death. I can't talk about the second one
cuz it's my mom will get upset. The
third death was
I was on Telegraph Avenue. Uh I'm 15
years old, 16 years old, and I've got a
girlfriend or I've gotten a date, I'm
sorry. We're walking down, it's a Sunday
and it's like twilight. It's like just
perfect because all of the the day
markets are gone and whatnot. So,
everyone's moved out and it's just kind
of like quiet Telegraph Avenue and we
are heading to one of the restaurants
that we know will not card us. So, we're
going to go have pizza and beer. So,
we're walking, you know, talking and our
hands kind of hit and all a sudden we're
holding hands like
>> oh my goodness,
>> that first date like this is the moment
like everything is perfect. A couple
seconds after that, there's a weird rush
of motion and I'm like, "What's going
on?" And the next thing I know, my arm
is, you know, yanked backwards as the
girl is running the opposite direction.
And I kind of let her go and she just
sprints. She's sprinting the opposite
direction. I'm like, "Wait, what's going
on?" And I kind of looked down and there
had been like a weird noise that I I my
brain couldn't quite process. And I
looked down and there's a body this far
in front of us. And it's somebody who
obviously has landed on their head and
their head is crushed open and their
pants are down around their ankles and
they're just flailing and all sorts of
stuff is happening
>> cuz they jumped.
>> Because when I look up three stories up
there's an open window with a curtain
blowing and they jumped. They missed us.
They missed landing on my head and her
head by this much.
>> Oh my god. And
so again, like what are the odds that
this would happen? So I I don't even
know how to respond. I'm just kind of
numb. And I think, okay, I've got to
there's and no one is stopping, by the
way. There's like a skateboarder that
runs by, drives by and goes, "Oh,
gnarly." Like, and it's like very
surreal. And so I walk into the hotel.
This turns out to be a hotel. And
there's a guy on the phone, you know,
talking to somebody behind the counter,
and he's like, "Yeah, yeah, I'm doing
this stuff." And I and he he's irritated
that I'm there. I'm He's like, "Guess
what?" And I go, "Some guy's dying out
on your sidewalk." Okay. I'm like, "He
jumped from your window." "Well, how
many stories up?" I'm like, "I don't
know. Three or four. What did he look
like?" I I He can't really see his face
anymore. Did he have a beard? I I I
think so. Hold on a second. Yeah. Guess
what? Jim jumped again. Yeah, I know.
And why does this happen on my shift? I
I'll call the police. Thank you. What?
And I'm like,
"So, just go back out there." He's like,
"He's like back to his conversation."
So, I walk back out there. There's still
no one has stopped
>> and the body has stopped moving.
>> Right.
>> Okay. I'm not going to dwell on it. The
The whole point is is that very strange,
very surreal. What are the odds?
>> Seven of these.
>> Six.
>> Six of these.
>> That was two. Okay. One of them had a
really weird component that I want to
bring up because it's important to
disclosure day. One of them I was at LAX
and it was early. It was between kind of
like right after college before I like
my career really took off. I'm working
as a limousine driver in Hollywood,
which is a job I would recommend to no
one by the way. And um I'm coming out of
LAX uh and I've just dropped off someone
and walked them to their gate with their
bags and I'm walking over to my the town
car, whatever that I've got parked in
the parking lot. And LAX is like two big
bands like you know it's like there's
the inner thing where like shuttles and
whatnot come and then there's like the
big loop that you can just drive around
with cars and buses and all sorts of
other stuff. And I'm walking across the
middle the inside band and I'm looking
straight across to people that are
waiting over here and there's a bus
parked right at the edge of the the
crosswalk. So you can't see the traffic,
you know, moving back and forth. And
meanwhile, I'm walking as I'm walking to
the crosswalk, it's red. Okay, so um
everything is stopped. Um no, I'm sorry,
it's green. So, everybody's walking
across it and the woman next to me
catches up to me and she is uh an
airline stewardist and she's arguing
with a passenger who's followed her out
there and she's like, you know, kind of
pissed off and arguing with him. This is
all happening in parallel to me. And so,
we step onto the little medium between
the two through lanes and I notice, oh
wait, the light has just turned red.
Okay, but there's a bus right here. So I
stop, but she's arguing with the guy, so
she's not paying attention. The last
thing she saw was that it was green. So
she walks out and I'm kind of like it
everything goes into slow motion and I'm
like, "Oh no." Like she's walking out
and all of a sudden somebody comes that
she doesn't see and hits her and her
whole body goes flying up into the air.
And here's the interesting thing about
this. In that moment, I lax is a very
noisy place. I heard nothing except her
breathing. What? She is flying up in the
air. All of the sounds disappear. And
all I'm hearing is
And I'm like, what is that noise? And
then she comes down. She slams onto the
ground. She kind of is all her body's
all tangled up and stuff. She kind of
looks up through her hair is in her face
and her face is all bloody and she gasps
and then just dies. And right in that
moment all of the noise came back in
LAX. So I had this like incredible weird
connection where kind of time slowed and
audio manipulated and I was suddenly
connected to her in some weird way.
Right. Okay. So last one I'll tell you
about. We're at the Dark Skies
production office. It's late night.
We're working one night. Everyone's
doing stuff.
And it's like on a Friday night and all
a sudden there's like an explosion
outside on the and it's like in the
worst part of North Hollywood. It's like
kind of industrial area. There's an
explosion outside. So um my assistant
and I go running out. We're the first
ones outside and we see across the
street there's a car that has like
flipped and gone into an old like auto
yard and it's behind like a it's flipped
and it's gone behind barb wire fence. So
there's like no way we can get to that.
And then down the street there's another
car that's gone off the road into kind
of the parking lot and it's kind of like
stopped and I look down there and the
front door opens and a teenage kid runs
out, just takes off like hit and run,
whatever was going on there. So I look
at my assistant, I go, "Go call 911." So
I run down to the car.
Get down to the car. Well, obviously the
driver's gone. So, I go over to the
passenger seat and I start to look in
the window and there's an older like
Hispanic man just kind of slumped in the
seat and I like knock and I'm like,
"Sir, sir, are you okay?" Does not have
a seat belt on. He kind of looks up at
me like this and there's blood coming
out of his ear and I I kind of reach in
and the door's unlocked. So, I open it
up and I kneel down and I go, "Sir, are
you okay? We're calling 911. There's
going to be help here soon." and he
reaches out this hand like this and I
take it and he's looking at me and he's
kind of like breathing really slow and
all a sudden he goes
and in that moment I feel all of his
energy go through my body like his soul
like that's the only way I can describe
it and I'm seeing images of his life you
know it's like the life when you say
like people see their life flash before
your eyes his life flash before my eyes
I'm hearing Spanish and all all these
things that I they're not in my
consciousness.
>> Whoa.
>> And all of a sudden, he's gone. He's
dead.
>> Oh my god.
>> In that moment. And there's this pause
and I'm like, "Wow." Suddenly, all of
these incidents kept moving me closer
and closer to an understanding of death.
And now I get this experience, right?
And in the back seat, I hear Papa.
and this little boy pops up like he knew
somehow intuitively cuz nothing was said
really for a minute or so between he
just knew that his father had passed
away right
>> so all of that happens and then when you
say well why would all of that happen to
me like you say well that's a curse
right
>> but here's the thing about 5 years ago I
had cancer and I I'm not going to go
through that whole journey but I almost
died I was in a hospital during coow
>> I had had a whole reaction to something.
I got sepsis from after the cancer
surgery and whatnot.
>> Oh Jesus, man. I'm sorry.
>> So, I'm in a hospital all by myself in
ICU during COVID with a temperature of
105.5.
>> Oh my god.
>> And for several days, I'm just battling
that, right? And the nurses are like,
they keep making me sign the thing cuz I
have a purple wristband on like, you
don't want to be revived. We're just
confirming. We're just confirming cuz
you're not going to probably make it.
And at one point in one of those nights,
I'm just laying there by myself and all
of a sudden light entities come to the
foot of my bed.
And because of everything that had
happened to me in my life, I wasn't
scared of death. Wow. I was there. It I
understood it intuitively. I just was
like, "Oh, this is my time if I want
it." M and I I didn't it wasn't like oh
hey it's grandpa Joe it's dad it's
grandma whatever it was just weird it
was like that the this is why I respond
to contact so well it was like the end
of contact when Jodie Foster sees that
light being kind of come closer and then
it becomes her father
>> this was before it becomes it was just
that light there's these light beings
there was three of them and they're just
kind of
>> there for me if I want them and I don't
speak to them they don't speak to me But
I feel this real sense of calm. All of
the body horror I was going through with
a temperature of 105. I didn't feel
anything. I just felt good. I felt like
totally at peace. And I was like, "No, I
have something I I still need to do." I
didn't even know what it was at that
time. But I just made that thought in my
head and they just receded.
>> Wow. And you got better.
>> And I got better and here I am.
>> That's amazing. And I one of the things
that I you know you can call this
whatever you want rationalization or
>> writing your own narrative. When Bryce
said we need to do this podcast and you
need to tell some of your stories. And
I'm like, you know what? This is what I
was supposed this is why I wanted to
stay alive
>> and to to and when I went to my family,
they said they had been the ones that
said, "Please don't tell these story."
Like this is
>> they were like, "You know what? You need
to tell these stories because if you had
died
when this happened, we would be telling
your stories secondhand." And that's not
nearly as powerful as people hearing
them from you.
>> It all makes sense in hindsight.
>> It all makes sense in hindsight. What do
you think those light beings were?
Um,
I don't, it's hard for me to articulate
this because I'm not a religious person
and I I will willingly admit that I
resist
trying to codify anything in religious
terms, but I feel like in some ways
these were my guardian angel type
beings. I felt a total like connection
with them. Not in a familial way, but
just in a in a coherence. There was like
I just I just knew who they were and I
trusted them and I felt like everything
was going to be okay. So, and I felt
like they had a connection with me even
though I didn't understand what it was.
>> Did you get better right after that
experience?
>> I got better within the next 24 hours
and I was leaving the hospital.
>> Whoa.
>> Yeah.
Yeah,
>> this I don't even know what to say after
all of that. I mean, that's a
>> those are some gnarly experiences. The
six deaths that you witnessed. I don't I
mean, that's hard to hear for anyone.
It's it's super graphic and intense and
I can only imagine like how are you
you're you're able to tell the stories
in such detail
>> and uh I imagine you had to in each time
sort of process and integrate
>> what had just happened.
>> Yes. But all of them are building on
right. So it's like you have the the
first experience when I'm five I can
barely comprehend it. Right. And then
experiences continue to build on that.
And there I wouldn't say, you know,
there's a way to say, "Oh, you were
being desensitized." No, I think I was
being slowly awakened,
>> right? And again, this is all like how
you choose to view your own narrative. I
could have viewed all of that as I'm tra
I'm traumatized. I need therapy for the
rest of my life. I I can't be around
things that trigger me. I think that's
one viable path you can take if you have
those type of experiences. Fortunately,
I don't know that I ever made a
conscious choice to say, "No, don't do
that. Don't fall into that path." You
know, but it it, you know, now to
connect a few other dots, you know, I've
had out-of- body experiences. I have
been visited by
entities, not UFO, not like aliens, but
like paranormal type entities.
>> Like what?
>> So, here's one I'll share with you. I
was in LA working uh this is when my
writing career was taking off and um I
was writing a script on
uh a ghost story.
>> Mhm.
>> And this this is one of those things
where you start to realize intention
like what you put your mind on,
especially if you have a certain type of
mind, you become a magnet for things.
That's the only way to view this. I am
trying to write the story and I get
obsessed with this idea that I'm writing
a comedy and I can't get past the scene
where the main character sees his dead
girlfriend as a ghost because I'm like,
"Okay, all I can write is the comedy
version of that, but I need to know what
would really happen. Like, if I really
saw a ghost, what's that reaction?" And
then I'll twist it and make it funny,
but I need to know what would really
happen. And so I I'm like I start
reading some ghost stories and I'm like
this is all just very this not
interesting. So it's like I I didn't
find what I wanted. So I was going
through this phase where I was very
frustrated because I couldn't I couldn't
get the answers I wanted. And my ritual
at that time was I would write you know
uh very late at night from probably
about midnight till 4:00 a.m. and then I
would sleep in get up around noon. It's
the writer's life right? So, I would get
up and then I would walk out, I'd pick
up the LA Times, I'd come back, I'd sit
in my bed, I'd read the bed, you know,
the paper, whatever. Start to plan out
my day and I'd go do my thing.
[clears throat] So, I'm doing this one
morning and my cat's on my leg. I'm
sitting on the bed. It's broad. I mean,
it's like noon and I'm reading the LA
Times and already my mind is drifting to
am I going to even try and write that
scene again today? Right? And I hear
this voice say, "I'm right here."
I'm like, I mean, here's the thing. A
voice has spoken to me a number of times
throughout my life. The way the best way
I can describe it is, and it does, it's
weird is that it's if someone's putting
like one of those like cooking funnels
in my right ear and they're giving me
there's pouring in pure information.
It's not words. It's just like
intelligence. Pure intelligence. and I
just know it and it it's not male or
female but it's like it's an order. It's
like oh I'm I feel like at that moment
I'm a manurian candidate and something
is speaking to me in a higher language
and I just understand it and it's like
I'm right here. Where is here? I don't
so I lower the paper and there's a woman
standing at the foot of my bed. What?
And
not great. Um, but she's translucent but
three-dimensional.
So, I can see her full body and but I
can also see through her and she's in
like kind of a tattered sundress and
she's got long stringy blonde hair, but
it's her eyes that get me. Her eyes are
Imagine you give like a three-year-old a
piece of charcoal and you say, "Draw a
circle." and they go her eyes are two
black circles that are undulating
which is not comforting like that
[laughter]
that woman's like it's really bad one
night stand like so I'm I'm looking at
this woman kind of like spellbound and
all of a sudden there's like a rush of
motion the paper falls out of my hand my
cat digs into my legs jumps off the bed
takes off my head slams back I'm I'm I
hit the headboard and I feel my whole
body being pushed down and like pain on
my biceps and I'm like what the and all
of a sudden I'm stuck and I feel
tingling around my neck and and I kind
of do this rack focus moment. She's
jumped on top of me. She's pounced on
me. Her knees are on my biceps and she's
holding my arms down and she's holding
right over me. Her hair is tickling me.
And as I kind of take all of this in, I
look up into her swirling black eyes and
I see the most beautiful constellations
and cosmos you've ever seen in your
life.
>> What?
>> Like through her?
>> Through her like shots of NASA that NASA
has of deep space through her eyes.
>> And I have at that [clears throat] point
in my life, I've already had at least
one out-of- body experience. I start to
feel my soul leave my body going up into
those eyes. I'm I'm literally being
pulled up like a vacuum. And then I hear
that voice again. And the voice says,
"Just look away."
And again, it's a command. It's like I
then I must just look away. With all the
strength I can muster, I turn until I'm
not looking at the eyes and it's gone.
And you know what my first reaction was?
Come back.
The reason was is because
I have never felt so alive in my life. I
felt like if you just took two fingers
and put them into an electrical socket,
you're supercharged. I was looking
around the room. I could look at the
Stuckco and like was like looking into
the Grand Canyon. I could see every
detail. Every dust particle was like a,
you know, a sagebrush brilliant. I mean,
it was incredible. And I I wanted that
experience to come back and but it
didn't. I get on the phone. I call every
friend. Oh my god, it's go it's ghost
and a woman and a thing and everyone's
like, "Oh, that's a great story. You
should write about that." I'm like, "No,
no, it's not a story. It really
happened."
>> So pretty soon I'm like, "No one
believes me." Everyone's, "Oh, you fell
back asleep." Fell back asleep. It was
noon. I'd been reading the paper like
nobody believes me. So I just kind of
start like not even thinking about it
anymore. And I'm like, I'm not even
going to do the script anymore.
And then one day, a friend calls me up
and he goes, "Hey, remember that story
you told me a couple weeks ago?" I go,
"Yeah." And he goes, "I want you to walk
down the street to Soap Plant," which
was like this esoteric book and novelty
store.
>> I lived right off Melrose at the time.
And pick up the new Whole Earth catalog,
>> and turn to page 187. I'm like, "Why?"
And he goes, "Just do it and then call
me back." Like, "Okay." So I walk down,
I'm like, "Go in. I find the new whole
earth catalog for your audience who
doesn't know this was pre- internet.
This was the internet. This is like an
analog version of the internet. Someone
[clears throat] went and collected all
the coolest short stories and pamphlets
and whatnot, things that were out of
print, and you'd find what you wanted
and send in your money, and they'd send
you back, you know, the hard copy. So,
I'm flipping through, I find the page,
and I'm like, "Okay, what's on this?"
And I find this book of outof print uh
ghost stories from Scandinavia in the
15th century. And it's like one of the
stories is called Witch Rider. And it's
about this myth of a woman in a tattered
sundress who will appear at the foot of
your bed, jump on you, and steal your
soul if you'll let her. What?
Now,
on one hand, you go, "Oh, well, that's
just dumb." except that why was the myth
from Scandinavia in the 15th century
coming to me in the 20th century in a
bungalow apartment in LA on a Tuesday at
noon.
And so that at that moment the horror of
being connected to something so much
bigger and so much more random and so
much weirder
now all the fear that I didn't feel
before I felt and it went up my spine
and I remember just throwing the book
like just get it away from me.
So the kod to this sequence is I lived
with the the weird like this that whole
experience didn't make any sense to me
because why would the voice that said
into my ear
I'm right here
as if go ahead have this cool experience
waiting for you then also be the one
that says just look away like oh you've
had enough kid okay just look away like
that was all I could but that didn't
make a lot of sense to me like this
entity
that was had been mythologized as like
this horrible thing would be take pity
on a kid, you know, like and it [snorts]
wasn't until last year I was talking to
a friend who was a psychic medium. I
start to tell her a story and she goes,
"Oh, that was your that was your
guardian angel or your higher self or
whatever you want to call it talking to
you." I'm like, "Really?
I don't understand. Like, why did they
say I'm right here?" Because they knew
you were about to have an experience
that you'd be challenged with and they
wanted to let you know that you weren't
alone. M.
Wow.
>> And I And that's why they said just look
away.
>> Wa
>> because you would have died right there
on that bed. [sighs]
>> Whoa.
>> Yeah, dude. I know. I know. So, that's
the kind of stuff that I've been
>> I h I have to ask you cuz you mentioned
this before we started rolling. You also
saw a Nordic alien.
>> I did. Where did you see a Nordic alien?
on Orcus Island.
>> Okay. I was visiting a friend there.
I'll keep this one short. I was visiting
a friend there and uh I woke up the next
morning after we were talking about a
bunch of stuff and he'd gone down to the
store which is quite a ways away from
his property to get some food. And so
I'm like, "Oh, it's a beautiful day. I'm
going to take a walk on his property at
like 20 acres in the woods." So I start
walking and I come over this ridge and
there'd been no one out. And all a
sudden there's this person who literally
looks like a male model, like a
Scandinavian male model with kind of
longish blonde hair in a weird kind of
more like European clothes, whatever.
And
they say, "Hello, Brent." Like they're
about 20 ft a little bit further down
the hill. And I'm thinking, "Okay, I did
not see his mouth move." First of all,
how's he know my name? Secondly, I did
not see his mouth move. And I was like,
"Hello." And he said, "Purn around and
walk the other way."
And he mouth's not moving and he's not
but he's not looking threatening. And I
kind of was like, "Got it on it." Turn
and I walk away. And now I'm getting a
little bit freaked out. I get a waist
down and I look back and he's not there
anymore.
>> Was he tall, blonde?
>> Yes. No, he was but he was further down
the hill. I could I would didn't have a
chance to like look him in the eye and
like I'm 6'4 so I didn't have a chance
to look at him and say oh this guy's 72
or whatever but he was well put together
like a specimen like an absolute
specimen. So I ask my friend comes back
and I say okay I just had a really weird
experience. He goes oh with one of those
tall white people. I'm like what do you
know about them? And he goes they have a
compound on the Orcus Island. And he
said, "There's a lot of weird people
that have compounds here because there's
weird energy that comes like every
couple, you know, months." And they come
in a black helicopter unmarked to a
facility that's all gated and there's
about eight of them. And they come here
and they stay here for a couple days at
a time apparently when this energy is
really high and they get recharged.
>> Whoa.
>> And I'm like, "Have you ever met them?"
And he goes, "No, they don't. They're
very select who they meet." He goes,
"There's a story about a number of years
ago, one of them came down into one of
the pubs, right, and just walked through
the door one day and said,"I want to
have a drink." And everyone's like, "Who
are you?" And he's like, "I live up the
way." And they're like, "Okay, cool."
And he's like, "So, what's it like to
live here?" And they're like, "On
Orcus." And he goes, "No, on Earth."
What? [laughter] Yeah. And everyone was
like, "Okay, dude. What is what is going
on here?" And then he had a couple
drinks and people had to like get him
outside and he's like, "No, it's okay.
I'll walk home, you know, and then he
left." And so there's now is that urban
legend on Orcus like this was like
>> is it like a pretty prevalent urban
legend?
>> And people I mean you ask almost anyone
that lives on there it's like oh those
those tall white people like they come
here and but they're very private. They
don't intermingle with people
>> but there's a lot I have a cousin I was
telling you who moved there. I got to
ask him about the tall white Nordic
aliens thing.
>> So, circling this all back to Disclosure
Day, it's like, you know, one of the
things that Bryce and I talked about
after we saw it was
Spielberg told a really compelling story
about gray aliens.
That was not a human being. I don't
know. It could have been a hybrid.
>> So, maybe not a true like
extraterrestrial. Maybe it was an
ultraterrestrial. Maybe it was like
someone from Atlantis or you know what?
There's so many theories around the
Nordics. I don't know. But that was not
just a good-looking man.
>> He spoke to me without opening his
mouth.
>> Okay. So, but but none of that is
touched upon in Disclosure Day. the the
the other species that many people have
said. No, even at the highest levels.
>> Although there was one moment where
Emily Blunt is in the hospital because
she spontaneously starts speaking
Russian and clicking noises as a
newscaster
>> and she looks out the window because
there are men in black suits presumably
I think from the FBI who want to like
ask her questions. She looks at them and
she goes, "They're not human."
>> Yes. And so there's some ideas being
seated around elements of the
intelligence community and the
government itself not being human.
>> Correct.
>> Which is fascinating. And I always think
is the hardest part of this whole
disclosure thing to grapple with is the
idea that they're not only are they
here, but they're probably in charge of
disclosure because they have like this,
you know, 360 control over a lot of this
stuff. and they're probably in charge of
at least at the very least, you know,
chains of command within government if
not like the entire thing,
>> right?
>> And like that's really hard to say like
how do you go then all of a sudden uh
disclosure is essentially seeding your
control immediately. So like how how do
you do that? How do you make a speech
saying like I'm I'm not actually in
charge,
>> right?
>> What do you what you know?
>> No, I and I I I absolutely agree. We've
talked about this too that you know the
minute that disclosure moves into it's
not just people coming to visit us from
outer space that it's much more kind of
anything from Lovecraft which is like
really scary they're all around us to
>> you know body snatchers where it's like
a bunch of humans that you think you
know your neighbor might be an alien or
might be a hybrid. The minute you move
into the X-Men thing we're back to the
red scare. We're back to well wait a
minute so some of some of the people on
this planet look like humans but they're
really aliens or they're shape or
they're presenting as aliens. They're
shapeshifting whatever they're doing.
>> I don't like that. Right? Because then
how do I know now? I don't feel not only
am I not the apex predator on the
planet. I don't know who to trust or who
to believe. You're into like a whole
that's to me when people talk about
onlogical shock. It's not just oh you're
going to remove your free will. It's
like I don't know who I'm interacting
with anymore.
>> Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like clearly
the veil is thin with you. Yeah. You
know, I I meet uh occasionally people
and I identify with this myself somewhat
where like they just have an absurd
amount of weird synchronicities in their
life and there's something going on and
I don't know if it's a gradient between
that and like you know normal people who
just you know have like goals to like
live you know the white picket behind
the white picket fence in the in the
house and you know and they just want
the job and they want to become partner
or whatever you know whatever. Um but
that that that is a type of person that
like uh it's like these uh serendipity
maximizer synchronicity maximizer types
where
>> things just kind of happen around them
and uh I don't I don't know what that
is. Uh do you do you have any theories?
Do either of you have any theories?
>> I I don't have any stories that rate
with that. I have uh we actually have
one synchronicity story that came out
>> between the two of us. Um when we
started working together, Brent was
admiring my UFO books and he was like,
"Hey, you have a lot of UFO books." And
he said, "Have you ever read the Moth
Man Prophecies?" Oh, yeah.
>> And at the time, I had not. And I said,
"Uh, no, I really haven't." And it it's
interesting because there's no Amazon at
the time. You can't like have it
delivered to your house the next day.
So, I had to go down to Melrose's place
to a metaphysical bookstore and find a
copy of Moth Man Prophecies. And I was
reading it and I was keeping it in the
backseat of my car. Uh, and I took my
young son to see a movie. So, like a
7:30 movie getting out at 9:30. And u,
so it's sitting in the back seat. And as
we're walking out of the movie, uh, and
you know, it was a dark parking lot,
couple lights, but very dark. As we're
walking out, I see a guy at the end of
the cars where we're going. And he's a
tall guy in a dark black duster jacket,
you know, almost western kind of thing.
And he looked weird. I just thought,
"This is disturbing. I don't want to see
anybody in the parking lot." So, I moved
my son. I was on this side. I go, "Why
don't you walk over here?" And I said,
"Don't make eye contact." Right? We'll
just walk past this guy. So, we just
continue to walk onto our car. And as
this guy passes me, he is in a big long
duster jacket, black, and as he passes
me, he's holding a book. And it's the
Moth Man prophecies.
>> How does that happen? How does that
happen? What are the odds?
>> Well, it go it goes back to that Coleman
Domingo character who's, you know, he's
moving sets around while he's
coordinating, you know, locations for
the, you know, main characters to go to
and kind of weaving everything together.
He's like in this architect position and
it's as if there is uh some sort of
reality management system and like like
you can go back to Plato's Republic. You
have this guardian class. We are in the
cave. Yes. And we're chasing our tails
and a lot I mean that would be the
>> the little the dirty little secret about
ufology or something would be, you know,
I just had a guest on a couple days ago
named Max Direct Shaunie. He does all
sorts of amazing stuff on lunar
anomalies, Mars anomalies, and he was
like, I just wrote to the um Prince of
Likenstein, Hans Adams, who's super
fascinated with all the UFO stuff. He I
think interviewed he got all the Roswell
witnesses together and he interviewed
them and he's just you know is
interested in the pair Princeton psych
pair psychology lab stuff and I think he
you know he was in touch with there's
photo with him with Hal Putoff and like
just knows everybody in UFO world
>> and apparently he wrote a very
thoughtful letter back to to Max who who
wrote to him and he was like I uh you
know really tried to get to the bottom
of this topic but every single time and
think of it this guy has all the
resources in world like he's you know
conspiracies are made about this guy you
know I'm sure they think of him akin to
you know the Rothschilds and you know
the scent of the heart of power you know
>> and uh he's like every single time I
thought I was going to get
incontrovertible proof and a clear
answer like I' I'd come extremely close
and it would slip through my fingers and
I mean that honestly that I I feel this
without that amount of resources I feel
the same way I I I feel like I'm
>> I'm chasing this thing and like
something almost is going to happen but
then like muds mud gets slung on it so
like you know a certain amount of people
just won't believe it because it looks
kind of ridiculous or something. Whitley
Streber talks about this as well where
he says I think they chose me as a
communication node for disclosure
because I was a horror writer and you
couldn't separate fact from fiction.
>> We've talked about that too.
>> Yeah. I mean you are maybe our example
as well. Well, but at the beginning when
Whitley's Communion book came out,
because he'd been a horror writer,
almost everybody said he's just making
it up
>> because he's just he's using what we
call the cover of of non-fiction.
>> Yeah. He's using not the cover of
fiction of non-fiction. He was
pretending that his novel was true.
>> Right. Right.
>> Which which neither of us believe, but I
I can understand that perception. you
know, when we've told our stories, you
know, people go, "But you guys are just
Hollywood writers, right?" Like, that's
what you do. You come up with these
crazy stories. Yes, we do.
>> Um, I think in some ways the stories
that we have around dark skies are more
interesting than what we could have come
up with, to be perfectly candid, cuz
they're just too weird. They're too like
things just don't add up.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, and and that's a hallmark of
the phenomenon.
>> They add up enough to keep you going.
Yes. down the thread, but not enough for
you to stop and be like, I figured it
out.
>> And then when you play it back for other
people, they're like, "Well, why would
this happen?" It's like, "Oh, that's a
really good question."
>> What are you talking about?
>> Yeah. Did you do did you take a photo?
Did you do a thing? No, I didn't. It's
like, so all you have is this crazy
story. But Hollywood makes s like if you
Okay, so you do have some Guardian class
and then we're just sort of like chasing
our tails a little bit. Hollywood is
this essential piece for the guardian
class because you know if you take again
the parasychology stuff at face value
that we sort of create our own reality.
It's not purely random atomic
interactions that congeal into our
reality. Um then of course shading our
reality systematically with what we see
on TV and in movies would be of interest
to you know the sort of power structure
like of course it would and you know
Diana Pulka um this religious studies
professor from UNC Wilmington. Yeah. She
wrote a great book called American
Cosmic. And she notes, we were talking
about Outer Limits, the CBS show before
uh uh you know, we started rolling. You
know, the Betty and Barney Hill
abduction occurred, I think, 11 days
after the first, you know, show. The
pilot had come out and the aliens had,
you know, eyes wrapping around their
heads and it that seemed very similar to
the, you know, the Betty and Barney Hill
experience, you know, but it seems like
we're being these things are being
shaded.
>> Well, there's a great con. Let's take
the Betty and Barney. Yes. The outer
limits. I think it was called the B the
Bolaro effect or something which had
that episode and then they did have
their event within a couple of weeks of
that. But now think about it. So what
happens in 1975 NBC makes a the only
movie that's ever been made about him is
called uh but the book was called the
interrupted journey. The option that
they make a movie called the UFO
Incident. Okay. Uh James Earl Jones is
the star. Okay. And that's where a lot
of people saw and heard about the Betty
and B. Not a great film. I mean, by
today's standards, no effects and it's
not that great. But what happens two
weeks after the UFO incident, uh, Travis
Walton gets abducted.
>> That's wild.
>> Okay, so you just have this, okay, outer
limits into Betty and Barney into the
UFO incident turning back on and and
then what happens after uh Travis? uh
you get the fire in the sky effect. And
what happens with that? Hollywood comes
in and goes, "Your real abduction, uh
Tracy Tormet, a friend of mine, wrote
it. Um they they tell him your the real
story of Travis isn't good enough. You
have to do a better abduction." So the
abduction people have seen in Fire in
the Sky isn't really what happened to
him. So you've got all these truths
shading into each other, and it's it's
really hard to pull them all apart. But
the one thing I will say by the way is
uh the Witches Hag that that jumped
Brent um I think Witches Cove on HBO
just did a finally they did their own
episode of that and when I was doing the
crow uh stairway to heaven uh producing
that show uh we did uh debate doing an
episode about this because it's in the
it's I mean get the thing stories like
the witch jumping you from your bed that
goes back hundreds of years
>> you know this stuff has been
So
>> you you can't say one person just made
up this story. You got to go. But it's
in a
>> it's in a lineage of people going that
have always done this. I think that's
one of the frustrations of of frankly
researching UFOs and
>> it's so it's so hard. It's like you're
staring at the sun or something. It's
really it's um and there's all sorts of
examples of sort of predictive
programming that the Simpsons seem to
get an anomalous amount of things really
right. You have this book called um
called Wreck of the Titan written by
Morgan Robertson in 1898, like 12 years
before the Titanic, and it describes the
Titanic to a tea, like perfectly, and
you had these blue-blooded elites on
board, and it was April, and it was like
the exact specs of the ship,
>> and it was at night. Um, you have the
adventures of Baron and Donald Trump,
you know, in the 1890s, and, you know,
of course, Baron and Don, their time
traveler.
>> There's a lot of this stuff. It's
really, it's really fascinating. Um and
then you get into, you know, around
going back to disclosure day, Obama
doesn't visit normal movie sets. He's
not, you know, going around to movie
sets. Um Stephen Spielberg let fly on
Michelle Obama's podcast
>> that her husband Barack visited Steven
Spielberg. I guess they're good friends
on the set of Disclosure Day, right? So
that implies some sort of deep interest
on behalf of Barack on on in what Steven
Spielberg is doing.
>> Yeah. I've been uh obsessed with Betty
and Barney for years. We even put a a
scene with Betty and Barney into the
Dark Skies uh pilot. So I I had written
a a screenplay about Betty and Barney
and I was all gung-ho to go sell this
thing. And then Barack Obama and
Michelle Obama announced they're going
to make a Betty and Barney movie. So
it's not like which they've abandoned.
That ain't happening. So for everyone
who's thinking the Obamas are making it,
they're not making it.
>> But the fact that they're not
interested.
>> What was he doing saying I'm going to
make the Betty and Barney thing, right?
I think Barney I mean not Barney. I
think uh Barack, you know, he knows
>> a lot. He did clearly does. And then
simultaneous to so he he says um on this
podcast in this like rapid fire
questioning section he goes uh he goes
aliens are real and then then he sort of
moves on and he goes but it's not like
you know this these beings you know
under under Area 51 or whatever.
>> Are aliens real?
>> Uh they're real but I haven't seen them
and and and uh they're not being kept in
uh what is it?
>> Area 51. Area 51.
>> And that's happening at the same time as
this documentary is coming out with all
of the top intel guys who advised him,
his director of national intelligence,
James Clapper, who's supposed to oversee
all intel agencies. John Brennan, who
you know he was close with, who is, you
know, director of his CIA, and they're
going way farther. They're saying we
have like, you know, decades long like,
you know, multigenerational crash
retrievals. We have a sensors at Area
51. So, it's like this clear deliberate
like he's walking the population into,
you know, belief.
>> Well, he I think he does know what's
going on, but remember when he did say
to that guy during the the rapid fire
questions and he said, "Well, aliens are
real." But then what did he have to do?
The very next day, he had to buy it
back. There's so much blowback on him
for having actually said the quiet part
out loud that he had to say. All I meant
was, you know, in the vast universe
there have to be univer aliens out
there, but that's not what he was say.
>> Well, I felt like uh it was mission
accomplished because I I almost thought
he was baiting Trump a little bit.
>> I think he Well, and then Trump took it.
Trump
>> Trump took the bait revealing classified
info and then it's and then oh, if it's
classified, it's real. You don't
classify fake stuff. So the whole thing
you very interesting to see a a past
president and a current president
fighting over alien existence.
>> Yeah. Whoever thought would be on this
timeline especially for you guys who've
been into this topic for decades when it
has been so kind of you know at the
margins of
>> although uh you and I are we allowed to
say that you and I saw disclosure day
together at the IMAX which was cool and
I really enjoyed that. And one of the
things that we both turn to each other
during the the film is when they had the
Nixon showing Jackie Gleason the alien
bodies in Florida, which is no big
spoiler. It happens early, but we look
at each other and
>> we've always heard that story, you know,
as we were talking about. We've heard
this story, but it's kind of this kind
of haha, you know, but and yet there
are, you know, it was uh his this Jackie
Gleason's wife told this the story. But
what they use in disclosure day is they
give give it meaning, its presidential
meaning. They say because Nixon was
crazy enough to show a comedian
bodies that whoever was in charge said,
"Well, that's not acceptable behavior.
These presidents are just short-term
people. We we can't be letting
presidents run this this thing. And that
in the 70s do take a turn.
>> That's right. And I do I think uh that
scene showing up in this movie is kind
of an endorsement that it happened
because the movie wasn't out, you know,
outside of a few cases. It was like
Roswell Kexsburg stuff that like if you
spend a few days on UFOs and you study
those cases, you're like they happened.
Yeah. They said a civilian was in charge
of Kexsburg. I thought that was Dr. or
Eric Walker maybe who is Penn State and
probably Majestic 12, right? But in the
case of this, you know, Jackie Gleon
Nixon thing, Mark Felt was the deputy
director of the FBI and he was deep
throat. Yeah. Exactly. So he was, you
know, Bob Woodward's source, which is
makes the whole thing calls the whole
thing into question because Bob Woodward
was in that office of naval intelligence
spy ring or whatever before he became a
journalist and was given the big biggest
story of, you know, the story of a
lifetime. And so, uh, I think in Mark
Felt's, uh, biography, I think he talks
about Nixon, you know, having seen some
covert technology as well. And so I, and
then, of course, you have Nixon wanting
to, you know, like JFK, not scatter the
CIA to the winds, but reduce it by a
third, do real force reduction. And you
know, it's this age-old story of those,
you know, the civilian-elected leader
going into loggerheads with the CIA and
it never ends well for the civilian
elected leader.
>> And so that that that little scene
making it in there and after Beverly
Mkhitrich has gone public saying, you
know, this I think this happened.
>> Maybe it did.
>> May maybe it did. But what's
interesting, you mentioned Kexsburg and
also Roswell. There's ample evidence,
multiple witnesses for both of those and
the anomalous nature of both those
wellestablished. You could definitely
make the argument those are the real
deal. Now, the the the Jackie Gleason
thing, not so much. So, it makes me say
Spielberg must have known something from
somebody to say, I'm going to put that
in there. When you have two things that
are like really real, a third thing in
the Nathan Twining thing, probably some
other Easter eggs were missing. And then
you have this one thing that was
apocryphal included there. I bet you and
you know, we all think that Spielberg
has some sources.
>> That story that probably happened and
and uh Jackie Gleason, I guess according
to his ex-wife, we were talking about
this last night and you reminded me that
like he couldn't sleep according to his
ex-wife for weeks after that. And then
he had a he built a house shaped like a
UFO in upstate New York.
>> Yeah. had he had a library of 5,000 UFO
books if you believe what was stated.
That's a pretty big I've got a my wife
already complains my UFO library is too
big and it's a couple hundred volumes. I
can't even imagine what she'd think of
5,000. That's a lot.
>> There you go.
[clears throat] But it is kind of
interesting though because it would
undermine Steen Spielberg's whole uh
concept that hey this is the truth folks
if he put in something that was
obviously comedic and not true as the
one piece of evidence. You know there
are two pieces of evidence that Josh
shows his girlfriend and one of them is
the aliens sort of being tortured but
the other is Gleason. Why would you do
that if it didn't stack up? I think it
does stack up. I think when the history
books are written, uh, rewritten,
they're all going to have to be
rewritten in the years to come. That'll
be a couple of pages in one of them.
>> Absolutely.
>> Yeah. I want to go back to something
that you were talking about with the
predictive programming and the Simpsons
and all that kind of stuff. Um,
we had uh Ernie Klene, who you may know,
Ready Player One.
>> I know who he is. I guess he's in
Austin.
>> Yeah, he lives he lives
>> there. He's moving though, I hear.
>> Yes. Um, we had him on for an episode to
talk about, this is before Disclosure
Day. We were like, "Okay, well, let's
talk about what we think disclosure day
is going to be." And he'd obviously
worked with Spielberg on Ready Player 1.
So, he had his own insights and
opinions. And he said something that
blew my mind that I had never
considered. And he said,
>> I've always thought of like writers
being remote viewers,
>> right? that we are unwittingly we're
sitting there and without we put a
little bit of intention on an idea and
suddenly we're jumped to the future
where we're seeing an event play out
which may either be the movie finished
or the book finished or based on an
actual event, right?
>> And so then we get an idea and it's
like, oh, I'm going to write this out.
Like we think it's just inspiration, but
in fact we're seeing into the future
potentially. And I had just I had never
thought of that. But one of the things
that comes up in Hollywood all the time
is these weird confluence of
>> everyone seems to have an idea at the
same time, right? Suddenly it's like
everyone's making westerns or everyone's
making a new sci-fi thing. There was the
whole thing when we were looking at the
abyss, all of no one had made movies
about us and then suddenly everyone's
making movies about USOs. Why?
>> Yeah.
>> Somehow it's in the collective
consciousness.
>> Yeah. It's like the the invention of the
wheel and you know desperate places at
the same time. There's some sort of
>> it's like uh you know the the word
genius if you go back to the etmology of
it. It's attendant spirit
>> and it's like we're vessels and you're
lucky if you catch the idea but the idea
is sort of this cloud that passes you by
and you either you know it's inspiration
finds me when I'm hard at work or
whatever. You can you can meet it
halfway or you can miss it but uh but
it's there.
>> But it's there. That reminds me,
remember what does Coleman Domingo say
to Emily Blunt? You're just a passenger.
>> That's right. You're just a passenger.
Yeah,
>> that's wild.
>> You're just a passenger. And then and
then she has to like there's something
about your life which you sort of just
articulated
>> it doesn't make sense you know leading
up to some moment of you know as the
Greeks would call it noises
>> where you you you gain knowledge of like
your soul your soul and maybe your
soul's purpose on earth
>> and they have to go back and
reexperience their abduction or their
alien encounter because they've been
sort of seated with this mission to
disclose and they needed to activated.
>> Yes.
>> And so, uh, it's so fascinating. It's
like, uh, it's all this like time loop,
>> you know, you have these two end points.
>> Yep. And I, when I saw the movie the
second time, I noticed a couple things I
thought were interesting. One is when he
Coleman Domingo says, "You need to go
back. You need to go home to discover
your destiny."
>> What he's sending her to is an alien
spaceship
>> or at least the memory of one. It's
like, why is that home?
>> Right.
>> Right. Like, because then you start to
go, okay, well, we're just a passenger,
right? We're not really a fully
developed human until we're activated
and then we have our higher sense of
purpose and our powers and whatnot. And
now you are a full-bodied, you embody
that being. So wild. And then it's wild
that there are the John Harringtons out
there. Maybe, you know, Harold Malgrren,
you know, as as he was dying essentially
called me and he said, uh, you know, he
had this precocious knowledge of like
atomic stuff and he wrote to the atomic
energy commission. They wrote back and
he goes, "That's when my name started to
he went to the files of the CIA." And
then he goes, "Not just the CIA, but the
Majestic, the ones that took it upon
themselves to guard the secrets of the
world, the guardians of the world." And
so it's like, are there people, you
know, humans in elite military
intelligence and scientific circles that
are sort of reality managers? That's a
weird concept. It is. I got a question
for you there, cuz we saw it together.
And and what what do they say in it? He
goes, Coleman Demango says, "It's the
two of you. It's always been the two of
you."
>> The only way for you to know your
purpose is to go back to where it all
began. It's the two of you. It's always
been just the two of you,
>> right? Yeah. So, my question is, and I
was just wondering because we both had
overnight to think about it again. Um,
what about all the other people that
have been abducted? Where do they fit in
this? It's always you two. I mean, what
were they abducted for? And I [laughter]
mean, what's the point? Are they all
going to be triggered? Is that And I
What was the director saying here?
>> I don't know. You know, there's this
Hansel and Gretle sort of, you know,
>> which has got to be a spacecraft, right?
That's what it was. It was it was a
false image of a
>> of a house like, "Oh, look this
beautiful little like, you know,
gingerbread house with the animals
leading you into it and she's just a
little girl." Then you get inside and
it's a spaceship.
>> But not every abductee is, you know,
it's not all cookies and and milk, you
know, for for them. They a lot of them
are traumatized. So, I just kind of
wonder where they fit in this truth. Uh
it it can't just be about just two
people. No,
>> there's there's all this if if anything
um and by the way I think we should say
this. Um
>> it's Disclosure Day is not a perfect
film but it is an important film. Okay,
you know people can disagree about the
film. They can argue about train wrecks
and car chases and all that stuff and
whatever you know whatever. Everybody's
going to have a different experience
with film. That's the one thing you know
I've certainly learned in my career and
you have too Brent. It's like you put
something out there not everybody's
going to see it through the same eyes. I
I I get that. But it's an important film
because what Spielberg has said is I'm
gonna call it Disclosure Day and I'm
gonna tell people that it's the truth. I
mean, he he's done dozens and dozens of
interviews and you've seen a bunch of
them and he's like, "It's all about the
truth." Well, okay. I think we could
debate the truth about it's always the
two of you, you know, the details, but
the big truth that he's got in there is
this thing is real. There is evidence.
lots of evidence and it's been going on
for a very long time and it's coming at
you. Well, that's probably what we need
right about now. We've got the age of
disclosure kind of documentary effect
coming out. We have Spielberg for
whatever reason saying my movie is the
truth. I don't believe everything in his
movie is the truth, but I believe the
big picture is.
>> And and I and that's kind of what is
kind of percolating through the culture
right now. We're at this inflection
point right now, Jesse. At least it's it
feels like it to me that things that
especially having written a book about
disclosure with Richard Dolan. I mean,
we thought about this for a long time,
it does feel like the moment is is
coming. Uh, I'm not sure yet exactly how
we get there, but I don't see how you,
as they say, put the toothpaste back in
the, you know,
>> but you do use the analogy of uh hard
cut or slow dissolve into after
disclosure. And I would say it's
definitely a slow dissolve.
>> It seems like
>> there's there's no um and it's a because
it's such a personal process. It's a
bunch of people being activated on an
individual basis and we sort of do
create our own reality and you can
ignore this thing happening for the
longest time until it's staring you in
the face.
>> We are clearly living in a slow
dissolve. But the interesting thing is
we could have a hard cut any second.
Imagine if um an event like the Phoenix
Lights happened today. Imagine if it
happened you're we're in Austin. Imagine
tonight in Austin, a large triangular
craft slowly goes over and everyone gets
a good look at it and they take
pictures. That's not going to be put
away like the
>> I think that's the part of the forcing
function for some of these
whistleblowers to come out is they're
probably like this stuff's going to, you
know, get open source. Every the world
is full of smartphones at this point. We
have satellites everywhere.
>> Um, have either of you seen the Netflix
show Dark by any chance?
>> Yes. Yeah, we we we talked about it. We
went down a whole rabbit hole
>> in one episode about that show and so we
went and watched a bunch. I binged it
like I had barely heard of it and then
it came up.
>> Well, one of there's a little backdrop
then we should talk about the actual
core concept but but at one point
Coldart calls me up and uh you know we
had we'd have these signal chats and all
that. I'm not violating his confidence
or anything. These are this was a while
ago but he said that in the period of
about I think it was about a twoe period
he had three separate independent
sources okay so they weren't I mean they
could have been coordinated I suppose
byces
but these were you know his highle
people in the intelligence community but
they were not people in his mind who
knew each other they were separate and
had been kept separate he said in a
two-e period all three of them had said
to him so I Guess maybe this was part of
the playbook, but they had all said,
"Well, if you really want to understand
what's going on, watch this Netflix
series, Dark."
>> Yeah.
>> Which is kind of crazy because I've got
friends who have tried to watch Dark and
they're like, I I Whoa. I mean, I don't
even know what's going on in that thing.
>> I It It uh it has the opposite effect
for me. It freaks me out because it
feels so true.
>> It does. And some of these other things
are like, you know, they use ideas that
seem true and they're like those are
elements and threads and whatever. The
dark feels so close to the bone to me
that it it freaks me out. I have like a
visceral almost allergic reaction to it.
Absolutely. But like also like, you
know, got to, you know, kind of peak a
little bit and I'm like there's there's
definitely something really, you know,
true going on there.
>> And what what makes it so strange and
unnerving is that you see that there's
these multiple time frames. I believe
there's three in the dark series and
they're folding in on each other and
they do impact each other but the future
impacts the past. The past impacts the
present. The present impacts
>> there are like multiverse split tests
between people and like somebody could,
you know, commit suicide in one timeline
and that affects this other timeline and
this weird and so the then they're like
reality managers in a program involving
nuclear and time manipulation and it's
all comes down to these factions. one
that wants to again that's kind of
proapocalypse one that sort of wants to
deter the apocalypse
>> and it just feels very right
>> and to put it square into what you know
euphology is all about what's a core
concept the the risk of nuclear energy
>> y
>> uh which seems I don't know who all
these uh others are but they seem to be
interested in nuclear power and nuclear
weapons
>> they're extremely interested and I
always want to mention Robert Hastings
amazing work who documents
160 plus, you know, people who are on
the PRP program and work at nuclear
bases. PRP being personal reliability.
They have to report if they're taking
ibuprofen or anything. And they're, you
know, guarding the the crown jewels of
American defense. And they all see tic
tac, saucers, orbs. This is ubiquitous
all over the world.
>> Yeah.
>> You know what is a because we all have
friends that are skeptics and you know
that's okay. I mean, skeptic is is fine,
but the thing that really gets a lot of
people when I'm talking to people and
they're like, "Well, I don't know why.
I'm not like you, Bryce. You you you
know more about, but I don't really pay
attention to that." I just say, "Well,
okay, we can prove beyond any shadow of
the doubt that they're interested
whatever they are or wherever they're
from, whoever's in them, that they're
interested in nuclear weapons." Okay.
And then and they've shut off nuclear
weapons or shut or turned on nuclear
weapons. And you got to say to yourself,
you have do you really want to believe
that the people we trust to fire nuclear
weapons are so incompetent that they
they would lie about this? And the same
thing about Roswell. It's like were the
people at Roswell who were the only
people running a nuclear bomber base in
the world in 1947. Were these
intelligence community people at that
base so stupid they couldn't tell the
difference between a crash saucer and a
and a weather balloon?
>> Yeah. Right.
>> And they've you've changed your story
five times now. The official story has
changed so many times it's so laughable.
Now it's like, oh, it was like, you
know, Russian and these were there were
these kids with like this sort of, you
know, proger geriatric disease where
they were aging fast, so they look like
gray aliens. Like, oh, come on. Like, go
with a mogul, you know, weather balloon
thing. Like,
>> that's a great leap. Or they were crash
dummies or whatever. I will say, I want
to give Spielberg props. I really
enjoyed this little sequence with
Roswell because we know anybody who's
studied it knows that kind of film
exists. Now, he had to recreate it. But
again, someday, hopefully in my
lifetime, those will be the kind of film
documents that get released onto that
government website and we can all look
at that stuff and we won't have to go,
"Well, what do you think? Do you think
maybe? Do you think we'll just know?"
Well, Harold Malgrim, not to keep
shilling this one interview.
Oh. Oh, he he he was amazing. But he he
um uh said that he saw footage of an
alien, the one surviving being from
Roswell being interviewed, and he the
the being, the gray alien, gave the
intelligence community or whoever was
interviewing that being the idea to
shoot UFOs out of the sky using this
X-ray projection system they used in the
high altitude nuclear test of Bluegill
Triple Prime.
>> And which is crazy. totally.
>> So he he told Pippa that his daughter uh
Harold,
>> you're right,
>> and that he saw the video himself and
it's just so so fascinating.
>> I mean, that was and but again, you
know, here's the problem. That was a
great interview, by the that that had me
riveted because it was good, but also
because it sort of validated this this I
this connection, this JFK UFO connection
that we'd sort of supposed and then
we're like, well, we just kind of made
that up. But then it looks like no, we
were what you call it predictive
programming. We were like almost
predictive programming of it. And um but
you have a great interview, got a great
source, and yet what happens when that
kind of story comes out? We still get
the debates. Well, I don't know. He was
old. He was this. He was that.
>> Yeah. And I can pretty definitively
debunk all the debunks. I think they're
lazy and sloppy. I think they were
coordinated, too. They came out like
very like immediately.
>> The the um research started when I did
the interview, which was not public.
Nobody knew I was doing that save for a
few people.
>> And then uh it came out right after I
did the interview. And there were all
these things like, you know, you could
foyer the guy's Q clearance, which is
not the case if he was what I think he
was intelligence- wise. I think he was
probably not official cover CIA. Um, you
know, he's very close with Richard
Bissell, who's the deputy director of
the CIA. Literally, I was in the
interview holding Paul Melon's walking
stick, which he brought in, which Paul
Melon founded the CI. So, like, and his
he's talking about his best friend Tom
Farmer, who was CI. So like there are
all these ways in which he you know the
guy would be pretty offcord covered his
tracks and it was just you know there
was this hit job written about him where
it was like I talked to an archivist and
they had never heard of the guy and he
wasn't in the room with Lame like what
do you mean you don't get like a report
card around your conversation with Lame
during the Cuban missile crisis. It's so
it was so ridiculous. And then they
changed his Wikipedia page, which is the
first thing that a lot of people look at
after they see an interview like that.
And it just felt totally coordinated.
>> It I think it was I mean, I remember
sort of seeing your your show and then
saying, "Okay, what's the push back?"
And it did feel like people were sort of
uh gathering the wagons around,
>> right? I think that's that's probably
going back to kind of just the concept
of disclosure. That's one of the hardest
things about disclosure because I don't
feel that there is an objective truth in
all of this. Um I, you know, I had
mentioned before you a couple times in
my life I've had these weird downloads
that were not stories where I just kind
of dropped a story. It was more that
voice just talking in my head. And
there's been three of them. The first
one that I ever got was I was just out
of high school and it didn't make any
sense to me, which is was the voice was
reality is subjective.
>> Now, this is before quantum physics. I I
didn't understand what that meant, but I
remember getting like just a sense of,
oh, this will all make sense to you at
some point. Like, don't focus on it now.
We're just planting the seed.
>> I think the problem is is that Bryce and
I have experienced this even with JC. We
both remember JC differently.
>> Slightly slightly slightly slightly but
that's telling like something that was
so seinal to both of us. We have both
different slight interpretations. So
that rashimon effect of like anything
that happens you see this a lot with
people that have UFO experiences. Right.
Whenever you're you're you're
experiencing the phenomenon you're
seeing it through your filter, right?
Yeah. And and so it's a it's an event
and there's a consensus to it, but
everyone takes home their own memories,
right?
>> And and then you have Mandela effects
where you have literally like air
pockets of different consensus reality
where, you know, um some people don't
remember South Africa's unification
involving Mandela. They thought he died
in prison or whatever. It's like a whole
like large
>> group of people out there. And then you
get into like what constitutes evidence
for what actually happened. And in
certain cases, you have physical
evidence. In other cases, you don't have
any physical evidence. So, so then you
get into these sort of tree falls in the
woods. What you know, but nobody's there
to hear it like what does that mean?
>> And there's this neuroscientist Wilder
Penfield who says that, you know, your,
you know, false memories are
indistinguishable from, you know, uh,
real ones and you can implant false
memories. Y. So you get into a really
trippy kind of Decart's demon territory
where like maybe reality maybe there are
probable futures and probable pasts and
a constricted present. Yes. And you have
this 01 flipping and it flips to one in
the present but the past is like a much
wider probability range and the future
does too. And a lot of the quantum
mechanics kind of godfathers flirted
with ideas like this and so yeah I mean
I think that's a model of reality that
will become consensus.
>> Yeah. So really quickly because it just
it jumps on what you just said. The
second one I got which was time uh the
download was you are you have everything
you need
>> right and what I took that to mean was
it was about me but I in in the years
past and they I was shown some weird
images and whatnot. And what I take that
to mean is is that
we don't need all of the technology we
use to manifest the powers we already
have. Right? The internet connects us to
a body of knowledge. It's it's a
manifestation of the collective
consciousness. And all our communication
tools allow us to talk to people we
can't see thousands of miles away or
whatever. We use those because we don't
believe we really have the powers. But
guess what? We built all of this stuff
collectively with our own intelligence
and it represents for us in a material
world how we can do all of the things
that we actually can do but without
letting go of those things. Right? So to
me that's the thing everything we have
and by the way Emily Blunt's character
when she's activated she suddenly can h
see things and make people you know feel
other people and all of these things
that would make the world a very
different place if everyone was
activated. So the third one was very
simply timelines.
Okay.
>> And it came to me at a place where my
whole world shattered for two hours
where I was experiencing multiple
timelines really
>> and it was the singular most scary
disturbing experience in my life.
>> How did you experience multiple
timelines?
>> Well,
um I was and this is the ke thing ke
factor. I was researching the formula,
the thing that the guy gave us that we
we lost it for years. It was lost for
years.
>> Well, how do you how'd you get it back?
>> Well, that's a whole crazy story.
Ultimately,
>> we will tell you that in a second. Good
story.
>> Yeah, Bryce will tell that part of the
story.
>> But what happened was is that it's back
in my life. We're everyone's trying to
make sense of it. I'm in an Airbnb in LA
one night and I'm researching it because
we're going to be doing a podcast and
I'm think, you know, we wouldn't figured
out when are we going to talk about it.
We're waiting for all this research to
come in. So, I'm doing some my own
research and all of the sudden I see um
I get a a chime on my um my Slack and my
day job is I'm working on a Call of Duty
game. I can't talk about it, but um
there's people all over the world
working on Call of Duty at all times.
So,
>> it is kind of funny. We can talk about
the nature of reality, but don't talk
about Call of Duty yet, okay? Let's not
disclose Call of Duty. [laughter]
>> So, um, but I am I'm I get this chime on
my laptop as I'm researching and it's at
like 1:00 in the morning.
>> So, somebody in Europe or whatever has
come online and and they're sending me a
message having a question about
something.
>> So, I read the question and I'm like,
"Well, I'm up, right? So, I'll I'll
answer it."
>> So, I go back to my research and all a
sudden, ping. I come back and it's like
the person's like, "The what you said
does makes no sense." I'm like, "Okay,
well maybe I'm tired. Let me read what I
said." I'm like, "Well, that's not what
I just wrote.
That's not what I wrote." And I'm like,
"Okay." So, I correct it and I send it
back and then comes back and he's like,
"Now you're really confusing me." And I
look and I read it again and it's like
nothing that I have. Now, first of all,
his original message is different now.
And I'm like,
"Okay, this is weird. Am I
am I really tired right now? Am I
hallucinating? What's going on?" So, I
go and I Okay, hold on. I go to another
Slack channel and I'm like, "Okay, I'm
going to go to like my creative
director. We have We're talking all the
time." So, I go and I start reading the
messages and like I don't recognize our
conversation. We're talking about things
I don't I've never heard of before.
>> And what are you talking about? the
game, but levels that weren't built like
just it's it's all like he knows me. I'm
having that relationship, but this is
not the reality that I am living in.
When
>> you get back to your reality,
>> so I'm like now I'm starting to get like
a little like shaky like either a I'm
having a psychotic break, which I can
never discount. Um but or I'm like I'm
thinking to myself, do people become
like get Alzheimer's like overnight?
Does that or like is there I kept
thinking wait no it's early onset like
this go what is happening to me so I'm
like okay I have I'm not going to look
at this laptop because then I'm thinking
>> oh you know what somebody out there is
is screwing with us we are watching you
someone's messing with me right some so
I go to a different device I go to my
phone I'm thinking okay I'm going to
look at the the text from my wife like I
can I can trust that right so I look on
the phone and we're talking about a dog
we don't have
>> what
>> we have a dog but it's not the dog. So
now I'm like, "Okay, so two devices are
are polluted with things that I can't
comprehend." And I'm starting to really
freak out now. I I I'm like, "Okay,
what's going on?" I'm looking at
different Slack channels and and and the
more I stare at it, the more things
become
like even wildly different than what
>> it's like you popped into a different
timeline. like your your body was ported
into another timeline,
>> but there was no moment where it was
like there was I was just researching
and all a sudden I get a a ping on a
Slack and that like the whole thing took
me down this. So all of this is
happening and I am and by the way I'm in
an Airbnb. It's like by now it's like
after 2:00 a.m. and I don't know who am
I going to call. I'm going to call
someone and say I'm in a different
timeline, you know, like [laughter]
>> don't call me. Yeah, I'm not going to
call I'm not going to call 911. Like I
I'm thinking if I tell anyone what's
going on, I'm going to be in a straight
jacket. Like they're going to think I'm
insane, but I don't know how to get out
of this. So, I get up and I start I'm
start I'm walking around and I'm like
I'm not I'm I'm checking I'm like,
"Okay, my heart's fine." Like I'm I'm
doing things like I'm pinching myself.
I'm not dreaming. I'm doing all these
checks just to make sure this is really
happening. And it really is. And every
time I go back to the computer, it keeps
changing. It's all these things that I
that I'm not familiar with. So, I'm
like, "Okay, stop. Just I'm going to go
take a shower. I'm not going to look at
any of this anymore. I'm going to shut
down all my devices. I'm going to just
take a shower and I'm going to hope and
pray that if I can go to sleep when I
wake up in the morning, everything will
be reset." Like, that's what I'm the
mantra I'm telling myself. I get in the
shower and I'm kind of like trying to
wind down and I hear that voice say,
"Timelines
I'm like,
"What? Why did you feel the need to show
me like I did not like that at all?" I
get into bed. I'm thinking about this. I
fall asleep. The next morning I wake up
and with dread I'm looking at my devices
going, if I open those and it's all I'm
in a different timeline, I feel like I'm
going to lose my mind like or that I've
lost my mind. So, I boot everything up
and everything is back to normal, but
only 99%.
There's a few weird little references
that feel like artifacts left over from
another timeline or let I've gone to a
timeline that's almost close to mine,
>> but it's not 100%
>> had to be reconciled,
>> but it was good enough for me.
>> It was good enough for me.
>> What was a holdover from the other
timeline?
It was things like it was just simple
things like dates like oh we have a big
thing that we're supposed to do and it's
like no I wrote that down on another
file and and there was a discrepancy it
was like that weird Mandela effect where
it's like no I had a pages file but in
Slack
>> the dates that they were referencing was
something different
>> and this is while you're studying this
light sound and frequency document that
JC had given you and you're trying to
interpret it
>> over 20 years earlier
>> I have to ask what What what do you guys
think this document means?
>> Okay, so a real quick uh this shows the
power of $500
>> because Brent [laughter]
was supposed to have put it in a safe
deposit box and he lived in LA. And we
went on about our lives because we
didn't know there's no internet. What
are we going to do? And we we're we're
we're both raising families and we got
work to do. So it's in that safe deposit
box. He moves
>> the the the message.
>> Yeah. The the the back of the envelope.
>> Okay.
>> And then he moves and uh I look, you
know, and he takes it with him. Okay.
And we don't talk about it. We we don't
revisit it. We don't fondly go there and
look at it and think about it. We're
he's doing his thing. I'm doing my
thing. Life goes on, right? And about I
guess this is two and a half years ago,
I decided I was going to write a book
about Hollywood and UFOs. It's calling
it strange visitors. And so, of course,
I want to see this thing, right? So, I
call up Brent and I go, "Hey, man. Uh,
you've had it a quarter of a century.
[laughter] It's my turn. Sorry,
but uh it's my turn. I want it. I want
to look at this thing." He says, "Okay,
yeah, I understand." He can't find it.
Okay. Because he's got a different safe
deposit box up in uh Washington. And I I
get a little steamed. I mean, to be
honest with you, I mean, we my threats
got increasingly irritated. I was like,
"It's really my time. I really it's it's
important to me for this book that I see
this thing and um he wasn't able to find
it and you I told you about giving my
son $500 to to do the
>> crush. You're leaving out one part. What
precipitated that was you said, "You
know what? You need a second set of
eyes. I'm going to come up there and go
through all your stuff with you."
>> I threatened that I would do
>> Okay. Well, that's where we're drawing
the line. Then you were like, but I
said, but I said, "But my daughter's
coming home for the summer from college.
What could we do with her?" And I said,
"I'll give her $500 if she finds it."
And she found it.
>> She found it.
>> She found it.
>> Saved the day.
>> She saved the day. And a really funny
little detail was,
>> you know, in Washington, it's rains a
lot, right?
>> Mhm.
>> Um, so the back of this envelope,
[clears throat] it was uh, like I said,
it was an ATM like deposit.
>> So it had stickum on it. Okay. So that's
what this formula was written on. It
went into a small Manila envelope and it
was in one of my boxes right in in my
office. Um when it got moved out of the
the safety deposit box, which my wife
did and she said, "Oh, it's in one." So
when I went and looked through all my
boxes in the garage, um I couldn't find
it and I like went through it twice for
Bryce.
My daughter came in, she was very
thorough. She went out there with like a
head lampamp on and gloves and
[laughter] was going through everything.
And on the second day looking for it,
she comes back in and she goes, "Is this
it?" I was like, "What?" What had
happened was it had come out of the
envelope and it had gotten moisture on
it. So, it had stuck to the back of a
book because it had the stickum in it.
>> Whoa.
>> So, I found the envelope, which was
empty, and I threw it back in there like
when And so, she found the envelope and
she's like, "Okay, I'm going to look
around." So, she started shaking
everything and it fell off the back of a
book that had a white backing on it. so
that you wouldn't even have noticed it.
And that's the only way that we found
it.
>> I I I would say this,
>> she's amazing.
>> We are we are close to stopping any
charade that we're having about, you
know, putting we're going to put it out.
We're not going to sit on it. We're
going to,
>> you know, we're just going to do a show
and bring in the people that have
consulted research on it and let and
voice everybody's opinion.
>> Well, [laughter] you can be one of them.
How about if you're one of them?
Please, we'll send it to you and we'll
let you do something. But here's be
awesome. I'd be honored.
>> I think the thing that is uh we're
working through right now is to look at
it in one way. You go, okay, I could
interpret that as something about
consciousness or whatever. You know, I
think you could make that argument that
what you see there and by the way,
>> it's oddly similar to the Tesla. Yes.
Yeah.
>> Frequency.
>> Yes. If you want to understand the
secrets of the universe is what he says.
think about energy vibration and
frequency. So it I mean so this guy JC
made it might have been a a Tesla devote
who knows but as I look at the thing I
do think consciousness is part of what
it's trying to make. But then I
>> and it's math and it it's it's it's more
like hieroglyphics
>> but it's not hieroglyphics. It's not
Egypt or anything like that. It's one of
So, one of the first pieces of research
we got back on it was like a 20page
whatever that broke into like the three
main ways to interpret it are
>> astral dynamics.
>> Uhhuh.
>> Quantum physics and transcendentalism.
>> Oh, [laughter]
>> but now here's the way I kind of look at
it is you look at this envelope. And by
the way, it is exactly the envelope. I
mean it's I when I saw it, I went that's
it. And we have other people that we
showed it to at the office who also, you
know, there's there's been no
switcheroo. It's it's the thing.
>> I didn't sketch it a new one.
>> Nobody sketched a new one. Um, but when
I I I look at it with fresh eyes today
knowing what I know now. I do feel a
consciousness part of it. But what I'm
having trouble and I don't know about
Brent and I haven't spoken about this
yet. I'm having trouble reconciling the
concept that the secrets of the universe
are soundlight and frequency and how
that relates to what I'm seeing in the
the we'll call it for lack of anything
better the formula. In other words, if
you just gave me the formula, I probably
already have a good concept, but now I'm
saying but he JC said it's the secrets
of the universe soundlight and frequency
and here's this thing I wrote. Those are
three different inputs. Secrets of the
universe, soundlight and frequency and
this written thing. So I I you know my
brain is only human. You know I'm only
able to perceive it on the level that I
can perceive.
>> Is it is it only hieroglyphics or
>> it's not hieroglyphics. Uh that's a
that's what it looks like.
>> There are symbols that are common
symbols. Okay. These are not where you
go. Wow. Where is that from? Some No.
>> Can you give us one example?
>> Um yeah. Um
yeah. One of them, the B one, the bottom
one is a is a black blacked in box,
>> right? There's also the um what is it?
The symbol form.
>> Ah, yeah.
>> Is in there. Inverted.
>> Wow.
>> So, there's a very weird quality. My So,
>> you told Jesse more than anybody. So,
>> yeah. Well, that's fine. Like, Jess
a little teaser. A little teaser.
>> Please back to us with your assessment.
We would like to know. Yeah. Decoded on
the spot.
>> I think it's I think it's important to
like point out like
>> when people look at it, there is a roar
shack test to it. Like people see can
see something immediately and other
people go, I don't this is the most
impenetrable weird thing I can imagine.
>> I would like to just publicly make this
offer right now. I'd like you to be one
of our
>> panel. Please. I'd be so honored.
>> I would like All you have to do is just
we'll send it to you. Don't put it on
your show yet.
>> Oh yeah. give us your input. We'll when
we go public, you can have at it. And
you you may have an opinion that I mean,
we're not we're trying not to tell
anybody what to think. We're trying to
just say, "Here it is. What's your
thought?" Because we we don't we don't
have a vested interest in it. You know,
>> I'm so excited to look at it. I have to
say it would be hilarious if JC was just
like a local homeless man. [laughter]
>> Oh, he gave you like this Voinich
manuscript to like
>> You know what? Here's the thing about it
though. When Brent described it, he is
right. The guy kind of turns around,
>> did this, and it was 30 seconds. And yet
what he wrote is clearly intricate.
Okay. And so what that means to me is
that u quite likely uh JC
>> had this in his head. He didn't make
this up on this. No, you nobody, you
know,
>> clearly premeditated.
>> Yeah. Nobody made that up in 30 seconds.
He was putting something on this paper
that is he was well aware of. So he did
that. So there's thought that went into
it. Yeah. And and to me that's the
forethought is is what's interesting
because if he is or was if he's alive
now but or if he if he was the guy he
said he was back then he was deep into
you know talking about the nature of UFO
reality and this is something he felt
would cinch his case
>> and he Yeah, that's right. He gave it to
you guys with the implication being that
it would be vindicated decades later.
>> And do you know how it was?
>> How was it?
>> That f So when we got it, it was what
the '9s, mid9, like 96 97 96 September
21st, 199.
>> So the internet wasn't capable of
searching images at the time. So there
was this we had this comprehensible
formula thing,
>> but we had sound, light, and frequency,
secrets of the universe. So what I would
do is every couple months, year,
whatever, I would Google with quotes
sound, light, and frequency. Sound,
light, and frequency. And I was just
there was no hits, right? The first time
that I got a hit on that exact phrase in
that order was in 2012,
about 15 years, in a white paper for the
discovery of the God particle. Whoa.
Yeah. Interesting. That's interesting.
So it was on the CERN server. And it was
something about the sonification of the
God particle.
>> Ah, and it was like and it listed sound,
light, and frequency. Now, again, this
is one of those weird coincidence
things. Could JC have just said this
crazy thing with a bunch of hoods, like
I'm going to give these guys some crazy
talk
>> and then suddenly about 15 years later,
soundlight and frequency is tied to a
seinal piece of quantum physics, the
discovery of the God particle. So
fascinating. I I don't know how to
explain that.
>> I don't either. Well, I hope we can
decode it, figure it out.
>> Will you Now you're part of the secret
decoding team.
>> Think about that, my friend.
>> We'll do our blood packed after this.
>> We will have. [laughter]
>> Yeah, totally.
>> Speaking of uh uh predictions, possibly
being vindicated. Uh you had a show with
Ross Coldart. He made a very bold, I
don't want to say prediction or it was
like a statement statement essentially
that he knew unequivocally without a
doubt that the tic tac uh on which uh so
many people rest their conviction when
it comes to UFOs. Steven Spielberg will
cite this Nimtt's case in 2004 for his
own like you know reopening of interest
in in UFOs. um in 2004 with David
Fraver. Uh he said definitively that he
knows that that is Loheed Martin
technology.
>> He he did it even more definitive than
that. I mean this is the last show I
ever did with Ross by the way. Last need
to know and uh normally before a show we
would discuss not not great detail but
we'd go hey what do you think about we
could do? Yeah. And then we could talk
about okay let's go. Right. It's so a
little bit but we didn't have time to do
that or didn't do that on this episode.
And during the visual part of the
episode, you can see Ross looking off
like he's looking at a monitor or
something. And we're talking about other
things. Uh particularly the Chinese
drone explanation, right? And then about
3/4 of the way in, he turns away and he
looks, he goes, "Bryce, I can now
state," this is the quote, "I can now
state categorically that the tic tac is
Loheed Martin technology."
>> I'm going to leave you with one thought
today, Bryce. I now know categorically
that the tic tac is Loheed Martin
technology.
>> Categorically.
And if you watch the video, you see me
literally go, "Oh, boy." I [laughter]
mean, I just literally it it shocked me
because
>> And you think him looking off was like
some inbound communication confirming
that
>> it looks to me that way, but I mean, you
know, he he won't he never said that
that was the case. And then so I I kind
of first of all that kind of violates
the etiquette rules of co-hosting, you
know, to just sort of throw some but
that's okay, you know? I mean, we're
we're grown-ups. We did that all the
time. We would sort of challenge each
other and that was fine.
>> But then we talked for a little bit
because I kind of I was trying to
organize my thoughts how to even respond
to that. Um, and then he said it again
and he said,"I can now state
categorically that the lock that Tic Tac
is Loheed Martin technology." So the
same exact words twice, right? And um uh
I mean I haven't actually talked about
this uh but I will just say this. I
afterwards we got off the air and I said
that's such a shocking thing that you
said um and I didn't have any time to
prepare for it. I think we should do an
immediate new show and I should be able
to uh talk to you and interview you
about why you make that statement.
>> And he said he wouldn't do it and we
stopped recording together.
>> Got it. Well, that's a bummer. Yeah.
>> Um
>> I But I mean, Ross remains a friend, but
you know, this was just a thing that
happened, you know. I mean, it's like
And um listen, I'm not saying he he
might not be. I mean, he could be right.
I mean, that's possible, but uh in the
immediate aftermath, at the time he said
it, it did not feel right to me. It just
felt like I have a hard time believing
that the thing that you always
described.
>> You always want to know how the person
knows.
>> Yeah. If you're going to tell me that,
but then subject you're a journal. I
mean, he's always talking about
journalistic rigor, which I admire him
for. You know, he does have journalistic
rigor. Of course, you don't want to burn
your sources, but
>> and of course, he also talks about
protecting sources. I'm all in favor of
that,
>> but but then it's kind of on the source
as well. Like you for something that
categorical where so many people's
conviction in the whole UFO thing rests
on that one case where you have fleer
data, confiscated radar, and a bunch of
eyewitnesses all seem super matterof
fact and credible.
>> It's like you kind of have to give the
audience something as to how you got
there. I think so.
>> And this I'm saying this is a huge Ross
Coldart thing. I think he's like done
foundation reporting.
>> I was honored to work with him. Don't
get me wrong. I I learned a lot of stuff
from him and I wouldn't have been
involved in the David Gush thing without
Ross's uh you know uh sponsorship into
that little society. So I I'm nothing
but good things about that. But I do
think if you're going to talk about
journalistic rigor, what's good for the
goose, good for the gander, as they say,
right? So, in other words, if that's
your if that's your plan, then if you
make a statement like that, then you got
to you got to defend it with
journalistic rigor, not you know, not
later having your producer ask you a
question from somebody, you know. You
got to
>> you got to talk about it to I don't know
what he would say about it right now.
You should have him on and you should
ask him.
>> I'd love to. I'd love to have him back.
I had a great interview with him and you
know
>> Oh, yeah.
>> Yeah. Um,
>> well, first of all, he's entertaining as
hell.
>> Okay. And and I know he has good
sources.
>> Oh, he has great sources. He's done like
some He's kind of the tip of the spear
on the investigative side. Like he
really like
>> puts himself in harm's way to like get
all sorts of crazy interesting stories.
>> He's completely admirable in the way he
does that.
>> And then it's interesting on the Nimtts
thing. It's like the thing is flying in
ways that like, you know, craft never
could, you know. Actually, I interviewed
this like old, I guess, NSA director of
research, this guy Eric Hazelene, and he
was like, he brought this thing up. He
was like, "What if the object is
massless, F equals MA,
>> and so it could accelerate at those
speeds and like break conservation
momentum if it wasn't, it was like a
hologram or something." I was like, I
hadn't really thought of that. And
that's kind of this really important
overlay
>> of thinking about all these videos that
are coming out where it's like, what? We
don't really know that. You're not like
a VFX person. you don't know like the
tip of the spear of advanced technology.
And then I think some of that so then
you have to ask yourself is part of what
came out in that 2017 New York Times
article.
>> What were there uh American national
security things that we could do that
you want to call UFOs, right? Uh
alongside obviously a whole, you know,
treasure trove of data around like real
anomalous UFOs. Yeah. Was there some
intentional conflation made there? Or,
you know, do you just take at face value
this like really inexplicable case that
I cannot explain? And Nimmits to me
seems really like, you know, it's very
hard to explain.
>> You blew my mind last night because you
said to me that when you first heard him
make that statement that you were like,
"No, I I don't believe that. That seems
not reasonable." But that you're now
50/50. Now I'm kind of not not 50/50 on
locked necessarily, but some Yeah. I
mean, maybe maybe it's most likely it
would be locked if if they did, but
50/50 on man-made. Yeah.
>> Interesting. What changed your opinion
over the time?
>> Yeah, it's a good question. Um
>> I think some of the people who kind of
have pushed disclosure over the last 10
years are have ulterior motives
>> and I think I think Yeah. And then like
so I think it's really like a lot of
people know that right and they'll say
like this person's a bad actor and I'm
like but where's the daylight between
you and them on the substance and like
they can't answer so like but they were
on the crash retrieval program and now
they want to out it like that doesn't
make sense [laughter] that makes no
sense [clears throat] at all.
>> So the thing that would make more sense
would be some sort of advanced you know
capability and then you were kind of
doing a little conflation thing. And to
be honest, I don't really want to
speculate beyond that because I'm not
trying to out, you know, right? I think
there's some fundamental things that
have been discovered like the Biffield
Brown effect, which you know, I'm
obsessed with this Townsen Brown
character, you know, and uh, you know,
there are things like that where it's
like you can't hide that from people.
It's like basic science. It's a whole
like new lineage of things. But if it's
like a weapon and it's like a trade
secret around the weapon, I'm not not
trying to get in the way of that. But
that that sort of hermeneutic lens is
like you have to consider of course for
for that event specifically.
>> It's it's a ve it was a vexing thing
because I had sort of taken it as an
article of faith that the tic tac was,
you know, not ours. Yeah. That I didn't
know the details, but it sure didn't
seem to be ours.
>> Okay. One and one other thing. one other
thing which is uh I know Jake Barber is
obviously a source for Ross
>> and uh you know his whole thing is like
the psionic assets like kind of locking
and and and Ross on other occasions has
said
>> I know about like I should do an
Australian accent I know about like you
know these these these psionic assets
locking on to craft with their mind and
flying them and so that was the whole
Jake thing and um so I wonder if you can
combine those two declarative statements
and say that the this was locked tech
around flying stuff with your mind and
there are a couple of locked patents one
of which is under this guy John Norsine
which involves kind of uh neural
imprints and neural interfaces for
flying aircraft and there was a battel
study on this sort of thing I think in
uh the early 2020s
you know that was kind of a follow-up on
the norsine thing where you'd put
nanotechnology and you know because I
think the norsine thing was based on
electrical signals in the brain
>> and so this is an area of active
research and you have all the Skywatcher
stuff going on and so
>> maybe there are psychic pilots of these
things and if you think about what what
is the um highest bandwidth lowest
latency system it's not a machine it's
the human brain.
>> Yes.
>> Here is the the biggest thing that has
always vexed me. Okay. Um many of us not
not just Ross but many people who are
researchers today um many of their
sources are in the intelligence
community. Okay. Yeah. And many of them
are active or recently active and so
that's where you're being told certain
things. But then what if your
intelligence assets are working you
>> then? Yeah. Yeah. So
>> so I I it's not that simple. It's like
you you have to evaluate every source
that ever comes out and and that's why
you know again um all we can ever do
whether it's uh whoever's coming out
with stuff you got to be transparent as
well and so the frustration that I think
has always existed between researchers
and the people who view their research
is they want to know the names why don't
these people just come forward and lay
it all out and and Ross to his credit
would always say that's not the way the
game is played.
>> But there are ways to work around that
which is what we we just described like
you know the Skywatcher thing flying the
crab the mind these public patents and
so you can use open source research
never burn a source but like
>> uh kind of uh you know rework in the
open- source world uh you know through
first principles you know inductive
logic how how you got there.
>> You never want to burn a source. what
you do have to do is um protect and
nurture them. Like uh I'm friends with
George Knapp as well who actually he and
Jeremy Corbel were also involved in the
David Crush uh bringing and everybody
had to treat David Crush for a while
with
great care.
>> Yeah. not to not scare him away, but to
create a system of confidence for him to
come forward. And and if they if they
jumped too fast or too hard, he might
have gotten scared and turned away and
we might not have had all the
information that he brought to us.
>> Yeah. Well, we've definitely seen an
infinite uh, you know, amount of new
information come out about this. and
maybe we can get uh your, you know,
former mentor family friend John
Harrington back on record and
>> let's get him on your show.
>> Let's go. Well, I think I think we
should all do something with that. Would
I mean that would be legendary. That
would be an amazing thing.
>> You should try to do that.
>> He It would be Yeah. Go ahead.
>> No, I was just going to say I mean this
is part of what Dave Gush was asking is
like could you help make this happen?
>> Yeah. you know, um I I'm like I feel I'm
in a very weird space because on one
hand, even telling this story p publicly
about him and whatnot, um really upset
my mom
>> because she was still friends with the
family and she made it quite clear to me
he he's not in good health. Like if he
wanted to tell this story,
>> he would have done so. Right.
>> Right. And I said, "Okay, that's I
understand that. I'm not gonna try and
make him tell his story. I'm gonna tell
the story he told me.
>> Yeah. Because maybe he wanted you to
tell. And he even made those statements
of like, "What if he did?" You know, I
could always deny it.
>> Right. I've watched Brent. I've watched
you go to travel quite a distance on
this. When you first told me, we weren't
even talking about his name, right?
>> Well, you should try to reconnect with
them at the very least. [gasps]
>> You know what? or I just let it happen
naturally because I have a sneaking
suspicion that somehow all of this is
going to lead back to
somehow us coming together. I love it.
>> I don't know how or why. I'm not going
to force it happening, but I just have a
weird sense that it's going to
>> and and frankly if if
>> I like that
>> I wish John Harrington, first of all, I
wish him a healthy life for what what is
left for him. But again, I think we've
entered a new era where we all have to
bear witness. And the reason uh Dave
Grush and the House Oversight Committee
are after Brent to get him Harrington is
he must be an important player. He must
know certain things. And and you know, I
almost got lost in what you were saying,
Brent, but why does Grush want Herring
to to talk to him? He wants the oral
history because according to Grush,
which is not something I've seen widely
talked about, many documents from a
certain period of history where
Harrington was active in the Reagan
administration have gone missing.
>> Wow.
>> They're gone. Okay. And so what they're
trying to do is establish the timeline,
if you will, but but but also what was
known. And you know, your story is is
interesting, but it raises a thousand
million questions. And the only guy who
can answer them at this point is John.
So, I hope he does reconsider. I think
that would be a a patriot at this stage
of our country's history. That would
make him a true patriot.
>> I love it. Well, on that aspirational
note, this has been a really amazing
just whirlwind of I don't know how long
we spent, but this was awesome. Uh
Bryce, Brent, uh I can't wait for, you
know, your podcast to fully come out. I
think is there there's one show out
right now?
>> No, we've got we we're going to we've
done the first half a season. Okay. And
so we're on we're we're now we're we've
sort of told our Dark Skies sidebar. Now
we're more into the active investigation
of trying to find others and pull it
into one big narrative.
>> Okay. Sound, Light, and Frequency.
Everybody go check it out. Anything else
you guys want to plug or?
>> No,
>> you know, we're both interested in doing
other things. We are doing other things.
Um, but satellite and frequency, which
is, by the way, if people want to find
it, it's satellitfrequency.com.
But, um, it's kind of our obsession
right now because we just we want to
come clean on the story and we, you
know, we want to not hide it. We just
want to get it out there and let the
world do with it what they want.
>> Well, that's, you know, it has humanity
level implications. as cool as Call of
Duty is and you're making a like a World
War II movie right now.
>> Making a movie. Well, that's true. And
and that's it's always fun to to make
anything in Hollywood. But what's
interesting and and by the way, that
takes you back to disclosure day, right?
Because what Spielberg obviously he
could have made anything in the world at
and he may not be making a lot more in
the future. He's he's
>> Yes. Might be. He said last night at our
at the thing that you and I were
watching in the live interview at at the
IMAX, he he was acting like, you know,
it takes a lot to get me out of the
house these days. Yeah.
>> Right. Isn't that what he was saying?
So, who knows if he's getting out of the
house again. This might be his last
statement.
>> Yeah.
>> Anyway,
>> all right.
>> We enjoyed it. Thank you. Thank you so
much.
>> Oh, this was a blast. It [music] was so
cool.
>> All right. All right.
>> [music]
>> If you want to access our episodes 24
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If you've made it this far in the show,
then I know you care enough to hear
about this. Our show, American Alchemy,
is growing super fast. It's bursting at
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editor, trailer editor, or documentary
style editor, maybe you're even a
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Strong technical skills are a
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somebody with taste, who has strong
instincts around pacing, music, sound
design, story structure, you know, all
the things. and big bonus points if
you're genuinely into UFOs,
consciousness, frontier science, and big
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So, if you're a strong, experienced
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with us on some of the coolest stories
in the world, please email all your
relevant work and your application to
apply atjessseichelsmedia.com.
And if you have a friend who would be
great for this role, please let them
know. Thank you so much and we look
forward to hearing from you and maybe
working with you. [music]
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