Hey, Travis.
>> Hey, Bob. How's it going? No, not bad. I
haven't seen you in a while.
>> Yeah.
>> How long did it take you to get here?
>> Um, quite a while. It was quite a a
trip, but uh enjoyed the scenery.
>> What have you been doing these days?
>> Just working around the house and uh as
far as UFOs are concerned, as little as
possible.
>> I I hear you there.
>> Good afternoon, gentlemen.
>> Hey there.
>> Can I offer you guys some coffee, tea,
water? Oh, absolutely. Coffee. I'll have
uh the tea. Sugar only.
>> Tea. Sure. If you want. Uh we have a
chocolate pie and an apricot pie. I can
come back later.
>> Apricot pie.
>> Yeah. You want a piece of that? Okay.
Sure.
>> Never turn it down.
>> Yeah. Apricot times two.
>> Okay.
>> Okay.
>> Hey, I always wanted to ask you
something.
>> Yeah.
>> The um
Yeah. the
humanlike beings that you saw.
>> Yeah.
>> What made you so sure that they weren't
human?
>> Well, the um sort of rigid u
pre-planned u movements, the controlled
movements. Oh, so they didn't they
didn't move
>> well like like they should, but um
um I'm in a panic screaming, yelling and
everything. Sure.
>> And they're just maintaining just
they're cool, calm, and collected and uh
just
on task,
>> but but physically they're I mean,
>> yeah,
>> they just seem like uh
>> I think that was the intention. M
>> uh the plan is
>> maybe to make you more comfortable
>> something make me cooperate. Yeah.
>> Yeah. It was I had recently looked at
Fire in the Sky the movie.
>> Mhm.
>> And um in fact I was trying to show my
wife Joy your story and holy cow there
is so much contradicting information.
>> Yeah. about about everything. Every
single thing you look at tells a
different story and they're all wrong.
Thanks.
>> Yeah. Well, I understand that, you know,
Hollywood dramatizations are not
documentaries, but I think they went a
little too far a field and they knew it.
>> So, how they knew it?
>> Yeah. They didn't put the part aboard
the craft in the copy of the script that
they gave me.
>> Really?
>> Yeah. So, I mean, just
>> they knew I wasn't going to like that.
>> That the whole thing with you in the
membrane and the dead bodies and them
drilling in your eye, none of that.
>> They just fabricated all that. And you
didn't know about that ahead of time,
>> right?
>> That's That's unbelievable.
>> Well, there's a few things that could be
classified as a story device. The
membrane over the actor's face. He's
struggling to breathe. struggling to
screen through it. Um I was in my actual
experience uh feeling suffocated and
uh
you know uh how do you express that if
you don't have the actor say something
like I can't breathe. So
>> I get I think you're being generous.
>> Show it rather than tell it. But yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Uh,
>> you said it was a real like a super
humid environment where it was hard to
to breathe and
>> Yeah.
It was
it it served the purpose of uh
generating fear and that's as probably
as close as you can
>> get for what they did there. What what
was interesting to me is the
the size of the craft that you were in
or if it was a craft or a base or or
whatever because when you exited when
you got away and now I may I may have
the story wrong myself. When you walked
out of the craft being led by this other
being, you were in some giant hanger
with other crafts, right? Uh, even the
craft we were coming out of seemed
bigger than the way I remembered it in
in when I approached it.
>> Did you think it was the same craft?
>> It was the same shape.
>> Okay.
>> But, you know, uh, it's also the same
shape as what you're reporting. Uh, uh,
I've always been struck by reports uh,
descriptions of your craft um,
resemble what we saw.
more than any other report that I've
seen. You know,
>> that's really interesting.
>> I I rarely comment on other events or
other people's reports, but that's one
that I've always u found interesting and
didn't mind saying before.
What caught my attention, I think one of
the times you were describing the craft,
it had archways in it. Is that that
correct? You saw
>> Well, the archways,
>> doorways and connecting
um surfaces between wall and ceiling and
that sort of stuff weren't corners.
They, you know,
>> okay,
>> were rounded. the the craft itself, was
it the the skin? Was it
made of archways? Was it like a looked
like a support system or
>> Well,
I was um it looked very angular from
outside from a distance and my uh I was
preoccupied with the feeling of threat,
you know.
>> Yeah. I'm I'm sure you didn't have time
really to
>> study the architecture.
>> Yeah. Yeah, that's uh
yeah, I thought they might have been
similar in that way. But that um did you
have any kind of feeling of where that
craft might be? What this big thing was?
Did it feel like it was,
you know, you were
>> I couldn't see outside the the light
that was coming through the surface of
the larger
enclosure. Now whether that was a
building somewhere
maybe on Earth or somewhere else or part
of a larger craft I don't know I
couldn't see outside but it it was very
natural colored light kind of like
sunlight.
>> Oh okay.
That it seemed it seemed natural not
artificial like it was.
>> Yeah. So
>> not extremely bright but just uh like
natural light. But it was large enough
to hold what was it two or three crafts
in there with more
>> room. Again, I was promised with where
are you taking me? What's going on? You
know, I felt like I was suffocating,
like I was dying. I was injured and I
was begging, pleading for explanations
from this person that I think was
probably selected for the purpose of
reassuring me, getting my cooperation.
I guess that that kind of worked to some
degree.
>> Yeah, it did.
>> But um he never uttered a word. You
never heard
>> No, he didn't respond.
>> None of them did. Uh
even, you know, when I started to demand
more of a response from them.
>> That's really interesting.
the uh the time from when
Well, I have a lot of questions. They're
kind of jumbled in my mind.
>> Well, I'm I'm here.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I've I've heard so many
theories about it, but when you guys,
you know, all got out of the truck
to see the craft, um everybody else got
back and you stayed there. No, actually
I got out of the truck and none of the
rest of them did.
>> Oh, okay. See,
>> so you just went out to investigate.
Everybody else stayed behind.
>> And that kind of led to some uh strange
reactions. Uh Steve, uh he he was in the
truck and he didn't get out. And his
girlfriends would say, "Steve, how come
you didn't get out of the truck?"
And he he said, "It's because I had
stronger resistance to mind control."
He's claiming that mind control made uh
us get out of the truck, but he
resisted. I said, "Steve, the mind
control was to make you stay in the
truck. I was the one that was resisting
it." Just kidding, you know. But uh
>> uh it wasn't mind control, but he was
trying to act like he had to come up
with an excuse for why he didn't jump
out, too.
>> Yeah. He needed to be a tough guy.
>> I I No. Well, I wished I'd have done it
like him and stayed in the truck.
>> Yeah. Um, so you got behind a a tree
stump or something to that effect to
kind of hide.
>> And one of the theories I heard was
um
the craft was about to take off. You I
think you said you heard a hum like it
was powering up.
>> Yeah. And it got louder. The sound was
all already there.
>> And then I think somebody was calling
back in the truck and you stood up and
then you got hit by there was a beam, a
bolt or something from there and you
were and you went flying
>> and you go like 20 ft high or something
like that.
>> Yeah. They they were all screaming,
swearing at me to get in the truck, you
know, calling me crazy and
which was foolish. Yeah. I can't argue
with that.
>> Yeah. Well, we all do crazy stuff at
times,
>> but getting thrown them witnessing that
the getting hit by the bolt flying in
the sky, they assumed by the time you
hit the ground you were dead, which is
why they took off.
>> Yeah. They said, "He's dead. He's dead.
Let's let's get out of here." That's
what they tell me. I wasn't there.
>> Yeah. You were you were offline, so to
speak. So, uh, the theory that I heard
was, you know, from the aliens point of
view, the craft was just taking off. You
stood up. It just accidentally
discharged on you and killed you.
>> Yeah.
>> And this, the reason they brought you on
was more like an an
>> an ambulance move was just to bring you
back,
>> reanimate you. Have you you've heard
that? That accident occurred because I
made a foolish move, you know, standing
up, closed the distance between me and
it and uh this discharge happened.
>> H
>> I I could feel a strange charge in the
air before I even got, you know,
>> Oh, that's interesting.
>> So,
>> but I didn't know I didn't know whether
it was from all these weird sounds it
was making or, you know, something some
energy emanating from the craft itself.
But when I stood up, that was when my
head uh was the closest to the surface
of it. And then the the blast of energy.
Now, I didn't see the energy, you know,
>> you just stood up and bam, the lights
on.
>> The crew describes it in different ways.
Uh, one guy described it as a foot wide
beam, like a laser beam. Another said it
looked like a long blue flame.
So uh
>> h it it was basically different words
used to describe the same uh visual.
>> How how far was
your head from the craft the edge of the
craft at that time? Your your guess
before it?
>> Oh it was only like you know 5t less
than 10 ft away.
>> I was okay. I thought I don't know
>> I thought it was like 50 or 60 feet
away. No, no, a lot closer than that.
>> So, you were right right alongside the
craft. So, that's
>> um the the increase in sound and the
motion scared me. And when I jumped for
cover, cover happened to be closer to
it. So I I got down behind the log there
and
the screams to get out of there, get
back in the truck um got louder and uh I
didn't need to be told. was
uh sort of torn between the fear of um
>> being discovered maybe
>> coming out from under uh cover or
um but I was going to run back to the
truck and bam
just felt this electric shock stunning
force go through my body. If if you ever
been hit playing football or something,
you didn't see it coming. That stunning
sort of it's a feeling of being stunned,
you know.
>> Oh, yeah. Yeah.
>> And of course, I know what electric
shock feels like, too.
>> Oh,
if you're enjoying your time at the
Flying Saucer Diner, take it with you.
From hats to tees,
mugs to this highquality canvas apron
available now.
>> So no idea the time once you were out,
you were out and the next thing you knew
you woke up inside. So
>> yeah,
>> you know what? One of my wonders is u I
5 days is such a long time to be gone.
you know, where did the time occur? Did
it
>> Did they bring you right back into the
craft then? And
>> I'd like to know.
>> Yeah. Was I partially revived
immediately and then I woke up much
later or somewhere in the middle of the
5 days
or
was was that waking up on board the
craft uh almost uh immediately after I
was taken aboard?
>> Yeah. And what was done over five days?
There's no you you have no physical
effects. I mean, after all these years
or
>> Well, there was one artifact,
brain wave scan.
>> Oh, really? Didn't know you had that
done.
>> Yeah. World famous uh
brain trauma center.
Um
Barrows Neurological
did the scan. It's where Muhammad Ali
went when he uh developed problems with
brain.
And um
I still have the chart the the print
out.
Um because there was such hysteria and
and just
a massive attention
um they put me
in Taros under an assumed name.
>> Really? Yeah. To avoid media attention,
which was fortunate because it sort of
served as a double blind on
>> the readings that they were going to get
on the brain waste.
>> That's a good point. So they found this
unusual pattern the the U technician
described and
um
I still have the report but it's um an
alternating
wave um
moving from front to back something
along that line. It's really curious. I'
I'd love to see a comparison between
that and maybe someone who's had other
kinds of head trauma or electric shock,
maybe somebody who's been hit by
lightning.
>> But I had a subsequent u um brain wave
scan that u where that was no longer
there. So it may have been some residual
effect of the healing that uh I was
provided. When did you have I mean from
the time of the incident to the
brainwave scan was that
>> all the stuff was almost immediately you
know the
>> oh it wasn't months later it was right
you know
>> the doctors um
that u
were in on this you know there the next
day and Dr. uh harder
uh who performed it uh regressive
hypnosis.
I was so lucky that it was him that did
it because he did it in a style, a
technique
to where I was put under as an observer
to what was happening to me rather than
the experiencer.
>> Huh. And uh the reason I'm uh in
hindsight grateful for that is because
one of the crew members went through
hypnosis where
he was directed to relive it and it was
hugely traumatic for him. I mean
>> the description of his
body u movements and um
>> I would imagine
>> reaction was it was probably pretty
pretty horrible for him to reexperience
at that it was not necessary to
>> um get at the memory of what happened. H
did you find anything out through
hypnosis that you you didn't I mean
sometimes it reveals some things here
and there. Was there anything?
>> It served a purpose in the sense that
what I recalled
I I hadn't I was unable to communicate.
I hadn't even told my brother what had
happened. I couldn't I was just so
extremely traumatized. So it removed
that to where I could actually
talk about it without
um secondary negative effect. You know,
>> that that really aided in my recovery a
lot.
Dr. Harter was uh amazingly
calming in the in his technique.
got rid of a lot of that fear that was I
was living with every day.
>> Perfect timing.
>> There's sugar there as well if you need.
>> Oh, thank you.
Thanks.
>> Well, that's that's good to hear.
That something helps because that's a
monumental trauma.
>> Yeah.
But it didn't it didn't reveal anything
that you had forgotten or didn't
couldn't
pull out of your memory.
>> No.
>> Okay. So everything was pretty much
while you were conscious.
>> Yeah.
>> You remember everything pretty clearly
>> in a a sort of cryptic way. you know, I
had to
um
conclude certain things based on events.
You know, this must be the the case. But
I do try to distinguish between what I'm
directly experiencing, perceiving, and
what I figure probably
explains what I experienced.
Are you still in contact with any other
guys? Well, you said
>> I I tried to stay in contact with all of
them and rightly um
>> you said a few of them are have died,
right?
>> Yeah, they did. And uh you know, I
contacted Dwayne Smith and I said, "Hey,
I'd like you to come out and speak with
me." And he says, "Sure." Uh you know, I
said, "But I'm looking really terrible.
I'm having my teeth redone. So, let's
after I get my teeth redone, I'll I'll
come out and speak with you.
>> And then he passed away right after
that.
>> Oh, sorry to hear that.
>> Yeah, it was sad. I I did tape the
conversation though and hear this many
years later. you know, his memory was
fresh and uh as you know, in sync with
whatever the the rest of us
um
>> were there any hard feelings between you
and any of the other
>> I think some you know it developed over
time. At first Mike would come out and
speak with me or and Steve, but then
Steve started to get sort of resentful
about it. Uh
he was asked uh by one interviewer
uh uh was there anything you would
change about the experience if you could
and he said yeah crank up the voltage
like he's wishing it killed me I have
stayed dead or something I don't know it
wasn't funny to me but
>> wow
>> so he quit coming out with us when when
the girls would say how come you didn't
get out of the truck
>> hm And then he developed he he tried to
come up with alternate explanations.
Okay. You know, I mean, at first, you
know, every time he got a new
girlfriend, he'd take a new polygraph
test and prove it all over again. And
then he started trying to say, well, it
happened just the way we described it,
but it was really the government and not
aliens. Made it easier to cope with. I
think that was a sort of a
>> Well, yeah, it's more of a downto-
earthth explanation,
>> a way that he doesn't have to be afraid
at night kind of a thing.
>> Mhm.
>> And and one other thing that developed
with Steve, I felt sorry for him, was
that uh
I was told by the other crewman that he
was one of the ones who was crying when
when the lawman came.
Well, that was fine with Steve at first.
Oh, and he doesn't want that spread
around.
>> And then his cousin, I think his uncle,
one of a relative, started teasing him
about being a big crybaby.
>> And so,
>> he got real angry about, "No, I wasn't
crying. I never cried. I was strong the
whole time."
>> Mhm.
>> And so, that was his big beef. He he
demanded that I have the book reprinted
to take that out. I said, "Look,
>> holy cow."
>> I said, "Steve, I wasn't there. I was
just going by what the others told me.
Yeah, Mike cried. He's not ashamed of
that. He admits to that.
>> Yeah, that's that's very cryworthy.
>> Yeah, I said I cried. Mike cried. You
know, I don't know how many of the
others, but
>> he's not a crybaby. He's He was strong.
He just doesn't know it.
I asked that because sometimes, you
know, when you especially once you start
getting a lot of attention, obviously
you got the most attention of any of
them the guys there.
>> Yeah.
>> Um, you know, hard feelings develop.
>> I had that in friends and acquaintances
that
>> when you know documentaries are being
made about me. Yeah. Hey, you didn't
include me and you know what the hell
and well, you really weren't part of it.
Yeah, but I knew you back then and you
know and then the hard feelings started.
>> I'm sorry. I can't help it. You know,
>> yeah,
>> when when Steve said crank up the
voltage and they quit coming out with
me, there was jealousy. I can understand
being a part of something so incredible
and then
media or curious people have questions
and they rush right past the witnesses
to the main guy and I I can't help it.
>> Yeah. Uh
so a lot of jealousy developed with um
at least Steve and Mike.
>> And then well then you know my case then
you start getting the detractors
that start looking for those people.
Anybody that was close to you that has
any negative thoughts and they you know
hey can you give us some dirt on them or
they're just trying to create a
narrative that
>> Yeah.
>> contradicts you and it's uh
>> Yeah. Yeah, it makes them easier to
manipulate. And some of that happened.
You know, one uh detractor
uh tracked Steve down. He he he uh
um had changed to his
real name. The tractor took him out to d
dinner and tried to talk him into taking
a $10,000 bribe to say it was all made
up.
Well, Steve got a free dinner, but he
didn't get $10,000.
>> And uh that sort of pressure was
something that was used on Mike, too.
And uh
>> did Steve tell you that right after it
happened? Getting
>> Yeah. Other researchers also, you know,
interviewed him and asked about things
like that. But um
um that's to be expected. But you would
think, man, you're part of something
like this. Mess it up by trying to do
something to attack somebody just cuz
you're not the middle of the story. Oh,
come on. You know, I wish I wasn't.
Look, the movie uh was about the crew
boss. I wasn't there for most of the
movie. So, my my the actor who played me
had a minor role, the crew boss. And
that's good point.
>> And some of the other uh
um people on the crew had a lot more
worldwide attention than me. I was just
the guy it happened to. H
a lot of times gone by. I mean decades.
What year was that in
>> 1975?
>> It was 75. Yeah. I mean, holy cow,
that's a long time ago. Is this
>> ever enter your mind anymore or is it
just people asking you that kind of
brings it back?
>> Yeah. Well, I'm constantly asked about
it. So yeah, as much as I try to forget
it,
>> I get reminded a lot.
>> Are you recognized when you go
>> happens? Yeah.
>> Are you wondering if that's why I grew
my beard back again?
>> Yeah.
time goes by,
but you know over time
um the debunkers have sort of crumbled
away being self-discredited and uh more
positive evidence comes up. You know,
scientific investigation at the site and
those sorts of things,
>> but I guess debunkers are um always a
part of it.
>> They are. I think they're just trying to
like anytime there's something of
notoriety happening, you always have
people that are just will grab onto the
coattails so they can get dragged along
with it. And if something's getting a
lot of attention, they go, "Oh, no. I
know this the true story. This is a
bunch of nonsense." And um
>> well, as support for my case grew over
time,
>> um
investigators and media started wanting
me to comment on other cases
and I
>> had my hands full with my own case. I
and I and I knew that if I gave into
that, if I started commenting, okay,
which cases are the good ones, which
ones are the, you know, it would never
end. I I would be put in a position of
passing judgment on people. I said,
that's not right. What I what I objected
to so much in my attackers was that they
hadn't done the research. If you can't
research the case thoroughly, you're not
entitled to make opinions. Mhm.
>> However, you know, in your case, I I
sort of broke that rule. You know,
people who expect expressed negative
things I can't uh
break my rule of u supporting other
cases. I did say, but
the description of the craft that Bob
Lazar saw is the closest to what we saw
than any other case I've ever heard of.
And uh
and then there were other silly
arguments I had to shoot down because
they were just so silly. Well, Bob can't
be telling the truth because I checked
the phone book at uh Area 51 and he's
not in the phone book. And I said, "Come
on, it's secret. They don't put the
number in the what's in the Bomb Lazar
secret department." You know, that was
the silliest attack. One of the silly.
But you know, I met some people say they
used to go out and uh party with you
guys in the desert uh before you ever
came out. And uh they said Bob was
telling us that story way back then
before anybody knew anything. So I I
consider that something that really
supported your credibility.
>> Yeah, it's uh
I don't know. There's a lot.
>> Well, they knew you to be employed at
Area 51.
>> Yeah, I've had um
I was fortunate enough to have George
Knap, that investigative reporter from
Las Vegas, so interested in the story.
Um he was able to verify, you know, some
things here and there. I mean, he found
my phone number in the Los Alamos phone
book at the the lab and um I was able to
take him there, show him around and
>> but it it wasn't under Bob Lazar secret
project.
>> No, no, no.
>> But
um
yeah, I don't know. I guess I don't want
to get off on a whole weird tangent, but
um
is it a lot goes through your mind when
you start reliving
all that stuff?
>> I'm guessing you're kind of like I am. I
I don't really have any interest in in
UFOs or stories or things. I don't I
don't follow them. But
>> I don't
>> whether you whether you like it or not,
people tell you stuff. So you begin to
hear, "Oh, I've I've heard that name.
I've heard about that incident and you
know that that kind of thing."
>> But um I was never really interested in
the topic. I mean before that I never
even believed in it. I thought you know
there were just either experimental
government craft or something like that.
But um you know being involved in the
project certainly changed my mind.
>> Well the reality of it is it's not like
some
bizarre side story to life. It's just
what is you know I mean you know it is
as uh traumatic and disrupting as it was
to my life. Uh there's nothing mystical
or magical about it. you know, it's not
uh anything to
um go cultish about. It's just the way
it is, you know, and it's people uh
don't understand why my attitude towards
them going from invading monsters, you
know, the attitude they had it to
something a little more well, a big
picture, you know.
>> Mhm. You know, just in my lifetime,
the increase in understanding,
>> sure, from the 70s,
>> the size and age of the universe, you
know, what's the name of that new space
telescope? Uh,
>> the James Web telescope.
>> Yeah, the James Web. It's out there
>> getting a a clear view of things. The
story is they pointed it at the emptiest
spot in the sky
and could see hundreds of galaxies, not
just stars, entire galaxies. You know,
the Milky Way is one galaxy, the one we
live in. And yet
the size and scope of the universe was
uh expanded so much by the James Webb
telescope because it's far bigger and
it's not just everything's moving away
from us which I think was
an artifact of um the um what they
thought they were seeing.
Um, but
>> what makes you think that?
>> Because that that implied that there was
a center to the universe and that, you
know, it had edges and now they're going
to have to face the fact that it's
infinite.
>> I think it's much bigger than they're
even thinking now. I mean, you know, 50
years ago,
you know, if you looked on a map of the
known universe was about that. James
Webb made it bigger. And I think it's
even larger than that.
>> Yeah.
>> But like they said from assuming
measurements are accurate,
everything's not moving away from a
central point. Everything's moving away
from everything else.
>> Mhm.
>> And the only situation where that occurs
is if you take a balloon, make a bunch
of dots on it, and then blow it up,
everything moves away from everything
else. So, it's almost like we're on the
skin of something.
>> Well, yeah.
>> I mean, that's at least that's the way
it exists in my mind to
>> Oh, yeah.
>> to
>> to deal with it.
>> Uh, it could be possible that u that is
an an artifact of the amount of size and
distance that's involved here that uh
gives the illusion that that's the case.
Mhm.
>> Um,
>> it could very well be a big illusion,
too.
What if our measurements, the red shift
in, you know, what we're using to gauge
distances, what if that's not accurate?
Then
>> it kind of throws off everything that
we're
>> Well, maybe you could explain this to
me. Maybe I'm not bright enough, but uh
um say there's a beam of light going
right here between us.
They're saying it's 186,000 m per second
and nothing in the universe can go
faster.
Now, if you were traveling along that
beam at say half the speed of that beam
and shown a light forward, what's going
to happen? The beam that you're shining
is obviously the speed of light
plus
the half speed that you're on.
>> Yeah. But it doesn't work that way.
>> And that's what they're saying. It makes
no sense at all. But that's the way it
is. Okay. If you say so.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> It's relative. They call it relativity.
>> Yeah. It's
>> relative speed. you know, if if if
you're on a train and you want to
calculate the speed of um a bullet that
you fire, you know, the speed of that
bullet relative to the ground outside
is the speed of the bullet plus the
speed of the train. And you're saying,
but with light, that's a special case.
>> Yeah.
>> It's always the same speed no matter
what.
>> Okay.
>> All right. Have it. It's it's like an
article of faith. It's not logical.
>> Well, I mean, it it it kind of depends
how you look at it, but the rules change
when you get to maximums and minimums.
You know, when you go really small and
get into the quantum era, all of a
sudden, the rules don't apply and it's a
whole new set of physics. And it's uh
and look, we really don't know for sure
exactly how anything works. I've, you
know, there have been old theories that
um,
you know, the light really isn't even
moving, that it's just like a river and
everything's already moving at that
speed. And, um, I mean, it's
it's difficult to completely prove
what we think. There's a lot of theories
and there are few hard proofs to to back
them up. So to a degree there is uh
faith that is is involved.
>> Oh there's uh you know in the edges of
the of physics. Um get into some really
>> Can I get you guys another refill?
>> Magical thinking.
>> One more.
>> One more. Yeah. Would you like some
water as well?
>> Uh
>> sure.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> And I noticed did you guys leave your
brief briefcase down there under the
table?
Oh,
>> well, you know, you have to adjust and
say, "Okay, there's really no such thing
as a photon."
>> Okay,
have it your way.
>> I take it that's not yours.
>> Uh well uh there it either is or it
isn't. But see that's what happens when
you get into uh uh uh exotic physics.
>> It's magical thinking.
>> Yeah.
>> Right.
>> And uh the uh the the isms the
platitudes are a product of
uh
allowing people to get comfortable with
things that otherwise don't add up.
>> Do you trust modern physics? Well,
>> do you think there's
a lot of holes in it?
>> Um, the conclusions are hard and fast.
The if they could just add as if
it's as if this beam of light is this
and this speed is being registered in
this way.
>> But you can explain it however you want.
But uh
>> um
>> here's your water, sir.
>> Thank you. things that are just contrary
to common sense and basic logic. U don't
>> yeah it's hard to digest that stuff.
>> Don't carry a lot of weight with me.
>> I know that you know thousands of
hardcore physicists would disagree with
me. No, no, that's the way it is. Get on
that beam of light. Go 34s the speed of
it. Shine that beam of light. And the
beam of light that you're shining isn't
going the speed. Plus the speed is you
okay?
>> Yeah.
>> Well, the bottom line, no one has
actually done it before. So there's no
direct proof that that happens.
So this uh briefcase
that someone left here.
Open the files.
Spooky.
I'm I'm perfectly aware that all of
these very knowledgeable and well
educated people will say, "No, you got
it wrong." You know, no matter where you
are on that speed of light, on that beam
of light, it's still going the same
speed.
>> How about your way?
>> Yeah.
>> Everything's relative except light.
That's what they're telling me.
Wow.
There's these u
>> That's a old
jet powered car I made
>> long time. That was back in Oh, it was
in Los Alamos. Yeah.
>> It's like a lot of stuff on me.
>> What kind of gas mile did you get? You
get jokes like that?
>> Yeah. Yeah, there's my W2 from
Department of Naval Intelligence. That's
another thing that really,
although I don't follow
UFO lore too much, but more and more you
hear about sightings, stuff that are
either over the ocean, overwater,
underwater,
>> coming out of the water.
>> Yeah. And, you know, I was paid and then
apparently the Navy were the ones, you
know, running the show. So, I just I I
wonder if they were the first ones to
run into the craft and
they were just left in control of it cuz
if anything, you thought it would be the
uh air force.
>> Wow. There's proof. I didn't need proof.
I know you really worked there. And
there's uh
>> Oh, these are the archways I was talking
about
>> in the you know.
>> Okay. Yeah, I may have had that. I just
was not studying it. Did it did the
craft glow or like
>> Yeah, it was glowy.
>> What do you remember the color?
>> Uh, it was a kind of a soft
um towards a yellow end of the spectrum.
>> Okay. You seem to hear that a lot.
>> Oh, that's a drawing I made about the
>> interesting
>> components.
That's a
sketch from a
autopsy report.
Had a friend named John Leer that uh
he was a a good guy, but um he used to
have some really weird beliefs. He
believed people lived in the sun and
all kinds of crazy things. And uh I drew
that picture for him and uh so that's
>> well he had a very famous father.
>> Yeah. A brilliant
>> brilliant guy and um I mean what he
invented the autopilot, the eight track
tape, a bunch of bunch of stuff later.
>> Yeah, I met John later.
He was he did come with us a couple
times
out to visit this uh th this is what
made me
believe at least part of the Billy Meyer
story because that looks so much like
the craft.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Does it kind of look familiar to
you? I mean it look
>> it looks so much like it. Um
>> but uh you know I think my case and even
your case contributed to the idea that
UFOs are all flying discs but no I mean
some of them are circular
>> some of them are triangular.
>> Yeah. These days I I wonder if just time
has gone on and just like car models
things have changed or maybe the
technology has changed or maybe
>> maybe you're seeing visitors from
somewhere else now that have their own
>> Yeah. going.
>> Well, I know people uh that I believe
that saw them that were
u they call it tic tac shape, but you
know, it's a sort of a a capsule, sort
of a like a vitamin pill or something,
you know, like a sphere would be if you
stretched it out. They call that tic
tac, but I'm sure the candy manufacturer
will appreciate the analogy. Yeah, they
they should ride the wave and make a UFO
packaging or something.
>> Clear anything away for you.
>> Uh, make this hot.
>> Okay, sure.
>> And uh, yeah, there's a gentleman over
there that said there was two folders in
the briefcase.
>> Le just found number two.
>> Wow.
>> I'll be right back.
>> Oh, this looks like you.
>> And then there's Travis's safe, down to
earth judgment. This is all you.
>> Yeah.
>> Was that your car?
>> Yeah.
>> Nice car. Yeah.
>> That thing would go over 150 in the 1/4
mile. It was
>> really
>> Yeah, it was incredible.
>> Okay. So, that wasn't stock. You did
some uh
>> No, it had over 500 horsepower from the
factory, but it
>> it had enhancements on it beyond that.
>> Yeah. It looked like you were somewhat
of a dared dirt bike. You're into
fighting too, huh?
>> Yeah. I I I my first three bouts I won
by knockout in the first round.
>> No kidding.
>> Yeah.
>> And you know, it was just a minor
excursion into boxing and I was mostly
into uh the Asian martial arts, various
styles at the time.
Now I can really see you come out
fighting when you're on that table and
chopping off.
>> Oh, so this is, you know, the hanger or
other ship.
>> Yeah. And now I'm wondering was this am
I assuming the shape because I could
only see it from this side. If there was
if it was more elongated,
I wouldn't know because I, you know,
wasn't studying it. I just looked over
quickly as we left this large enclosure
and uh this very smooth uh chrome
um thing reflecting everything around
it.
>> So chrome. So it was really
>> polished metal. Yeah.
>> Okay. I didn't realize that was the
configuration. So you came out of the
>> the craft here.
>> It it seemed bigger at this point. So it
could have been a bigger craft. I don't
know. Um
>> and then went into yet another
>> um room where they rendered me
unconscious.
>> How big Well, yeah, you you wouldn't
know. I'm just wondering
how big of a diameter you thought that
was, but it
it would be hard to say with
>> Yeah,
>> this I found fascinating, the chair. But
did you ever sit in the chair or just
again there's confed to it? Yeah.
>> Did you Okay. Yeah. Some of the films
they have, you just touch it and and you
saw the star pattern. Mhm.
>> pop up. Was there a screen in front of
you or did you see it all around you?
>> It was all around me.
>> Yeah. Thank you.
>> So, it wasn't something that was
projected. It just appeared all around.
>> Yeah. But it was only visible while I
was in in the chair or next to it. If I
was farther away from it in any way, it
was just dark.
>> Oh, all right. That's
>> the stars just appeared or apparently
they were just visible to the whoever
was in the chair.
>> That's interesting.
>> Movement
moved the star pattern, but not
>> Was there a joystick or something or was
it?
>> Mhm.
>> Okay.
>> But not relative to each other. the
whole thing moved, you know,
>> which was uh kind of affected my balance
for a second, you know, cuz everything
around me, every reference point of
where I was standing was moving.
Um,
>> did you feel
did you feel that was like in real time
looking outside or were you did you feel
like this is more of a map room?
>> No, I was in a panic. I wanted out and I
was just looking for a button to open a
door and get me out of there.
>> Yeah, I'm I'm I'm sure that's the case.
Yeah.
H
>> Yeah. So, here's the arches that you
were talking about. See, from my point
of view, I was looking more to the
bottom side.
>> So, the top size surface could have been
>> But it looked like that.
>> Yeah. H.
>> And that was giving off a light. It
wasn't burning me. It didn't seem hot in
that sense.
>> Did the guys in the truck ever relate to
you where it looked like the beam came
from? Was it just the side of the ship
or something?
>> Yeah, they were, you know, pretty much
saying that, but
>> it that was also the closest point of
surface next to me. So if it was some
kind of um accumulated energy
discharging, it would just be
because I was close to it. Now the
artist put a tree there that
>> Yeah. I don't give it.
>> It would have been the point of
discharge. The grounding uh effect would
have gone through it.
>> I was the closest thing.
So before you got knocked out,
you're crouching behind there and you
hear the thing powering up. While it's
powering up, did you did you perceive or
see anything? Was there any kind of
distortion outside or any any light or
glow around the ground or anything that
would
>> No, just the vibration you could uh feel
as much as see feel in your body the
high the high high frequency that seemed
to uh change with the position of your
head and the really low rumble that you
just felt in your bones more than
through your ears.
I can imagine that must have been just
frightening of something.
>> I I was Whoa, what did I do? What did I
do? You know, I'm I'm this close. I was
thinking it was going to shoot off
before I even got close. You know, that
was normal thing. You encounter wildlife
and you jump out and it's going to be
running away from you,
>> right?
jumpsuits every They're always wearing
jumpsuits.
>> Yeah.
>> So, did they
>> Well, except in scary invading monsters
movies, they're always naked.
>> Yeah.
>> Cuz then you get to show
>> you have to show the scales and
>> the grooy monster effect. Yeah.
>> Right.
Uh
>> so the eyes a lot of times in
other witnesses and uh report solid
black eyes but these were these are
>> yeah they had pupils
>> and I think that had to do with the size
of their eyes made to gather light
extremely dim light in in a low light
environment.
>> Mhm.
But in this ambient light here, it would
be way too bright for them. A li an eye
that size. So I think it was some kind
of a contact lens sort of effect that
may have been biologically developed to
protect the eye or maybe something they
in like a insert or something.
>> Sunglasses on a contact lens. Yeah. Type
of thing.
>> That kind of thing.
>> Was it brightly lit in this room? Well,
it it hurt my eyes to look at it, but it
was pretty dim.
>> Okay. But yeah, you're looking back.
You're looking straight at the light.
>> Straight up at it.
>> Is that about this the right height?
>> Yeah, I think they were shorter than
that, but you know.
>> Okay.
>> You got to judge the perspective of
who's standing where.
It was shorter than four feet, but
>> but no no no noise, never used their
mouths or anything.
>> And it didn't express emotions, just
>> just were, you know,
>> afraid of you. And
>> well, I have a theory about that. You
know that if they truly are telepathic,
then facial expression is obsolete.
They can say everything to each other
without moving the muscles in their face
at all.
Do you felt that they felt your
intentions?
>> Um, I don't know.
>> You were combative and they started
>> if they if they felt anything, they felt
sheer terror and panic and and
a threat that were in response.
But they get out,
you grab the rod or whatever that was,
they put their hands up and they just
calmly walk out and turn right and go
down. They didn't run like they were
afraid of each other.
>> Oh, they were they scured pretty
quickly.
>> Oh, they did. Okay.
Oh, yeah. Again, some of the other stuff
I saw had them, you know, calmly walking
out and I'm surprised they even turned
their back on you with you. Uh,
>> no, they just, you know,
>> made a run for it.
>> And of course, the physiques here, male
and female, are quite overemphasized.
Hm.
That's really interesting.
>> Artist impression.
>> Yeah. But these were clearly human
compared to
>> anyone else on the
>> And you know, interesting. You got a
hair length differential longer for the
female. That's
>> Yeah, that's very Earth.
>> Kind of Earth custom, you know.
>> But if they were trying to simulate
something I would accept as human, that
would be the way they do it.
It's interesting that they'd have two
species working together. That's uh
>> Well, I don't know if they're working
together. I don't know. They knew at
that point my hysteria
prevented telepathic control or
communication
and I'm not going to cooperate with them
and I'm going to die if they don't get
me
somewhere else for further treatment.
So, they needed something I would trust.
Now whether this was some kind of u
creation uh like a mechanical device or
>> uh something in a species that looks
very human. Um
I don't know. Um
they sure looked like people to me
when he grabbed my arm. It felt like a a
person would who would grab grab you.
And I think somebody said you described
these guys as really strong when they
held on to you.
>> Yeah. Well, I was in a weakened
condition, but once they got me down on
the table, you know, I started to fight
them and I was outnumbered, too.
>> And whatever this device was, as soon as
they put that on you, you were
>> Yeah.
>> You were out.
>> Probably some sort of anesthetic, you
know. No, it's no hose connected to it,
but maybe it was generated from the the
part that was being held.
>> Now, I was describing these craft. I
just, you know, could glance over and
see them. Whether there was
they were actually discshaped or or made
more elongated, I don't know. Cuz I was
very concerned with where you taking me.
>> Yeah. I can't imagine the feeling of
walking out there and now you're in this
completely strange place. There's other
>> and he's not answering any questions
yet, but I was controlling that because
the helmet may have been preventing him
from hearing me or speaking.
>> So these guys
didn't have helmets?
>> No.
>> Just this is the only guy that had
>> Yeah. So, so you know when they got me
out of here into the room where these
people were
um
I was
re renewing my efforts to get an answer.
No helmet uh as an excuse.
I need to know what are you doing to me?
What what is this? What were those
creatures and all those kind of things?
Just babbling
and getting no response. Mhm.
>> Just force me down and put that over my
face. Now, probably
>> my guess is to continue whatever
medical treatments might have been
underway when I regained consciousness.
>> How did you feel at this point? Did you
feel like you were still in pain and
damaged from the shock?
>> Mhm. The air seemed cooler and easier to
breathe out there. Uh
>> h
>> and I was surprised that the the
surface, you know, was so easy to it
wasn't slippery, you know, as steep as
it was. I could walk down it
>> and in a weakened condition.
like a closeup of one of the eyes.
>> Oh, so here. Yeah, here's that room we
were talking about. Okay, so that's
where the guy with the
>> Mhm. helmet came on.
>> And actually, the viewpoint from right
here was probably
black.
>> You could only see stars if you're
standing over here. But
>> I don't know why I couldn't be two
places at once.
What do we got here? It
>> says two related cases. Bill Herman,
1978.
>> Jesse Rosenberg, 1954. I haven't heard
of any of that.
>> No. But then you and I are not students
of the the genre.
>> No.
>> Oh, but that does look like
>> Yeah.
>> There are guys there.
Oh, and as do these guys.
>> Oh, yeah. So, that's these are cases
reporting.
>> Yeah. Similar things to you.
>> And uh this was after mine and this one
was a before mine.
>> I wonder this looks kind of like I'm
more a 1950s.
>> Oh, no. I got it wrong. This is 78. So,
this is this is the one that's after
yours.
And this is from the 50s.
>> Interesting case, huh?
Like I say, I haven't I haven't studied
any other cases.
>> Yeah, hairstyles are interesting.
>> All right. Well, what else we have in
here?
Not sure what that is.
I'll let you push the button.
>> Was it ticking?
>> I don't know.
>> No, I'm kidding.
>> Oh, this is a simile of my badge there.
>> Wow.
It had no other surprises in there.
Area 52 card.
Did you push the button?
>> No.
>> Do you want me to?
>> Well, we might
put it closer to you.
>> Yeah.
>> Okay. Not sure what that did, but
hopefully nothing serious.
Well,
uh, interesting dossier there.
>> Mhm. You know, I there's so many UFO
stories and I've heard other people say
that before. There's uh so many crashes
>> and you know, you hear the detractors
say, you know, a very valid point. They
travel these great distances and they
come here and just crash, you know, left
and right. And how can there be so many
crashes with the, you know, advanced
technology and um
>> that's a good question. Yeah, it seems
unfortunate that they aren't better
drivers than that.
>> Yeah, if they are. I mean, there's
there's just so so many theories, so
many thoughts, and so much incorrect
information.
>> Yeah. Um, I had people recently said
they they wanted to make a film or
documentary on me and they said, "We're
going to send you the script." I said,
"You have the script?" And, you know,
they sent it to me and I looked through
it. I said, "That has nothing to do at
all with what happened to me." I said,
"Well, we got it all off the internet."
>> Yeah. Well,
that doesn't mean it
>> some very creative people on the
internet.
>> Yeah. It's uh
>> unfortunately,
>> yeah, it's a incredible amount of
incorrect information, but some of the
theories kicked around are are
fascinating. You know, some that say
that they're not
even from space or other planets.
They're just they're us from the future
coming back to check on ourselves.
>> I've heard that theory and I I'm not
going to argue about it because I'm just
sticking to what I experienced.
>> Right. Yeah.
>> You tell me.
>> Yeah. That's the standing I take. It's
uh you hear plenty of things. You might
be told things even from officials, but
you just have to stick with what you
know, you felt, you touched, you saw,
>> and draw the line there cuz everything
else is guesswork.
>> Yeah. Or somebody's theory or whatever.
It may or may not be true, but
>> Uhhuh.
>> I didn't personally experience it. So
I I try to just stick to my story and
not talk or study the phenomena. For one
thing, you and I both know. There's a
mixture of things that are going on.
Some of them are hardcore nuts and bolts
you like you and I.
And also other things that are
um
US government attempts to
create something
>> right
>> that will pass. And there's also
misidentified objects.
There's
complete hallucinations and madeup
fabrications.
>> Sometimes people, you know, just see a a
light in the distant sky and um their
enthusiasm and emotions
embellish, I guess is the word.
Um so there's
mis mistaken identification too. I think
the hardcore events are actually a small
percentage.
>> I think a very small percentage because
the other the others so outweigh it
>> and it it muddies the water so much
>> maybe intentionally. I wondered about
that. You suppose all these stories are
floating around out there just
for camouflage?
>> Oh, I'm sure some are. There's no
there's no doubt in my mind that some
are intentionally there to confuse
things and and
or just stories put out about witnesses
or
I don't know. Do you have a feeling
about the intention of
the government's position uh relative to
the public? You know,
we know that it way back used to be
total denial. It's all nonsense.
Everything's made up or crazy stuff and
there's no no such thing.
And the longer they stuck with that, the
more the credibility was being damaged
on their part rather than on the
witnesses,
>> right?
>> So they finally had to say, "Okay,
let's concede something
in order to reestablish our
credibility."
So late on a Friday, they say, "Here's
gun camera footage from this jet. This
is something that has
powers beyond anything we have. We don't
know what it is. It's not ours."
>> And you know, like I say, late on a
Friday and news day news goes dead until
Monday. Monday came around and
no reaction. What? Wait a minute. I we
just made this earth shattering
admission.
So the the government actually issued
that admission quote unquote twice. Lay
it on a Friday. Gun camera footage.
Look, there is something that has
maneuverability beyond anything we have.
It's not ours.
>> We don't think it's other countries
either. and and u that was they left it
open though.
>> I'm just saying what they said they they
just said this is something that we
don't have. So of course that would
immediately raise the fear what it is
what if it is something possessed by
other countries. I personally don't
believe that's the case but I don't
know. So it could be anything.
>> It's I think they have a long way to go
to get credibility back. Um
>> Mhm.
>> they they've made the mistake of lying
for way way too long.
>> Yeah.
>> And I think that started a long time
ago. And you know, as I've said, you
could and others have said too.
>> It's you know, if you want to keep the
technology a secret, we all understand
that's powerful technology,
>> but you don't have to keep the story
secret. Okay? We a we found something
from somewhere else.
They consider themselves responsible and
if there's a high tech thing that they
can't
uh thwart, you know, that's their role.
We're we're here to defend you against
whatever might be there.
You would think it would create alarm.
I don't uh I don't think it is a threat.
But
on the other hand,
the military's
justification for even looking at this
is is it a threat? So they can study it
and be involved in it and all that. If
they if they said it wasn't, then then
why are they even messing with it?
>> Well, right. M.
>> So maybe that
is allowed to uh languish the idea that
it's a threat, but I don't think it's a
threat. You know, these reports have
been around for decades,
>> even longer than that.
>> I think um a technology that advanced,
if they wanted to remove us and become
the dominant species on this planet,
we'd never know what hit us. It could do
it overnight. I I agree with you 100%
there.
>> So I don't I don't see a threat to worry
about. Um but I also I don't think of
any sinister intention on the part of
the government with the position they've
taken. They're forced
to do what they're doing.
>> Well, it's their job.
>> Well, the so many people say it's our
government. We can tell them, throw open
the books and tell everybody what's
going on.
Well,
um, we have a couple of other
superpowers on the planet that might
love to know what we've harvested and
>> Mhm.
>> Uh, is it something that they can
overcome or not? And, um, so as long as
we keep our stuff secret,
um, they don't dare make a move. could
be some kind of a day sort of balance of
power thing that um
we need to maintain that secrecy just
for uh national security
and you couldn't say well uh I'll show
you mine if you show me yours
>> uh because are they really giving you
the full story or are they just doing
giving you a some token pieces of
information to get at what you're
holding.
>> You know, that's what they would do.
Yeah. Everybody's
>> So, it can't be done. And so, it's it's
probably a a pretty good safety chain on
the whole mess to have the books slam
tight. A lot of people don't understand
me on that. What you know, are you
taking the government side? Well, in
this case, I think their secrecy is
justified and necessary.
Yeah, I still I I agree with that, but I
think they could still just loosen their
belts a little bit.
>> Well, in admitting that there's
something, which they've done,
>> and the public says, well, that's not
enough. Say, yeah, so what else is new
and big deal? You know,
>> we want more
>> like free energy. Can't do that. Well,
>> you know, it would destroy the u
monetary systems of the planet to uh
have free energy.
What do you think would happen overnight
if energy could be free? Just that?
>> Well, we'd have a big problem.
>> Well, especially if uh
>> we'd have a big problem. Any big leap in
technology would really collapse our
economy.
>> Yeah.
>> Even if we could
>> even if they didn't weaponize it, which
they would immediately, how can we use
this to defeat our enemies?
>> Yeah, that's going to be step one
is turn it into a weapon. But any
advanced technology, even if we could
teleport from place to place or jump
like these guys do great distances where
you don't need cars, suddenly if you
don't need cars, planes or the post
office or anything, you can get anywhere
you wanted to immediately. Nobody has a
job. Everything's a support service for
those or part of those.
>> Yeah.
>> And same thing with energy,
>> the whole world economy.
>> Yeah. So, I don't know what you do with
really advanced technology. It's too
big.
>> I mean, technology could be too good to
release.
>> Yeah. I think uh the situation we're
we're stuck with it. Uh uh people need
to be far more understanding than they
are to re to be granted much more than
what they're getting.
Um,
you know, we fancy ourselves as
civilized people. You know, we leave the
building here and we drive down the
streets and everything's fine. But the
truth is from the aliens point of view,
the natives are getting restless. We're
a bunch of savages constantly at each
other's throat, killing each other at
phenomenal rates. What how many thousand
this week? Come on. M
>> you know they can even talk about that
on TV and
you know that's not incredibly alarming.
>> Not anymore. No,
>> now it's just something
>> well the aliens see it all and uh not
the polished um optimized side.
So, um, aside from being shot out, just
seeing us behaving, how we behave
towards each other,
I can understand perfectly why they
would not come down and share advanced
technology with us.
>> That would be a foolish thing to do.
That's like giving out three-year-old a
loaded gun.
>> Yeah, exactly.
>> I I would I make the same move they did,
but it of course it makes you wonder
what they're doing here.
Is it just a is it a Disneyland thing
where you should stop by earth and check
out the natives there or is there really
something?
>> The Europeans started exploring the
world. They encountered cultures that
were, you know, basically in the stone
age and the contact was very
destructive.
>> They weren't ready uh for all that came
with it, especially not things like
modern firearms and whatnot.
Yeah, advanced technology contact is
always destructive. It's never worked
out well in history.
>> But
does that mean that um we're just left
to stew in our own juices?
I think uh the aliens have a strategy
and this is just my own theory.
uh
they observe our behavior
and uh I've made the advanced the theory
that
UFO sightings are not accidental
where they're just
humans spotted us again. We're going to
have to be more careful.
>> You think they're intentional?
>> I think they're intentional.
>> You know, I think they do everything
they're doing here and remain
undetected.
But what's
allowed to be seen is to is a reminder,
you know, a hint,
>> just a tease.
>> Yeah. Something things could be a lot
better if we would just uh get our act
together.
>> H that'd be great if that was that was
accurate.
Well, just the awareness that there's
a better way, a different way, a more
advanced way could uh maybe inspire some
leaders to want to pull us in that
direction,
make us um
compatible with
um more advanced societies.
But
>> I think that's going to be
>> a bunch of savages at this point. Yeah,
that it's going to be a different set of
leaders. I think uh I don't think
anyone's thinking along those lines at
the moment. Anyway,
you're not much of a coffee drinker, are
you?
>> No, I just drink a hot beverage to keep
my vocal cords uh from getting horse.
>> Do you ever drink coffee? I mean, when
you were younger? Back when I was
working at the paper mill,
uh went graveyard shift with you every
third shift.
>> Go to work at midnight. Uh coffee,
>> you got to stay awake somehow.
>> So that was the first time I really
drank coffee. My mother was a coffee
drinker, but I never drank it till I
started doing shift work.
And that was just to survive graveyard,
>> the midnight shift.
>> Yeah. Yeah, I can usually have two cups.
On the third one, I start getting shaky.
>> I'll definitely do it.
I I try to distinguish between
what happened, what I can report
factually, accurately, and just what's
my own theory, you know, and I'm sure
you don't agree with all of my theories,
but nobody does. And u
um that's fine and dandy, you know, no
problem.
Well, they're they're your theories, you
know. I'm the same way. I draw a hard
line between what I know, what I
experienced,
and what I believe might be true and
what I've heard from others. I don't let
them ever cross over. It's
it's really there's just so much
incorrect information to dig through. It
would be great to know what's accurate
and what's not. Have there been that
many crashes.
Are all those
abduction stories real or or not? Um
certainly some are. The Betty and Barney
Hill story. Um you've probably heard
>> Yeah.
>> that. And um you know I I firmly believe
that occurred. I firmly believe you know
what happened to you occurred and um
there are so many other instances. It
would be great to know.
>> You know, I had an instance that
happened when I was
probably first grade or, you know, when
I was very, very young
that I was awakened in the middle of the
night by
a small being,
large eyes, big white head,
>> really
>> wearing a black jumpsuit.
But I didn't call it an alien. It was
just a little man.
>> This is when you're like one year old.
Wow. I I never heard this.
>> My sister, who is still alive, remembers
me insisting that this happened.
And she uh but she says, "No,
>> it was a dream. It was a dream." And so,
all right, believe what you want. You
know, I've I'm been alive for uh 72
years, and I've never believed a dream
was real.
Um that really happened.
I didn't call it an alien. It was just
had little man with big bald head and
bald eyes. I didn't call them aliens. In
those days,
aliens were my favorite Martian.
>> Oh, right. Mhm.
>> Two little antennas that would sprite
from a human's head.
>> What do you remember from from that?
>> Just some
>> I was uh it was very hot and we had huge
coolers uh mounted on the roof of the
house blowing down through the hallway
and out. And that was one way to stay
cool. So we'd instead of sleeping in our
bedrooms, we'd bring bed rolls and lay
in the hallway.
So I was awakened by something lifting
my bed roll from the bottom in.
Uh my legs were lifted into the air
and uh I woke up. What is this? I mean
that's not the way a dream happens, you
know. It's not a dream, you know. this
was happening and I saw
the little man that uh was lifting the
bedroom and I called out and he dropped
it and turned to run away and I jumped
up and ran after him
>> and u
I was unable to catch up with him. He
disappeared in the house.
We had a huge house, 21 rooms.
Wow.
>> Yeah. It used to be the mayor of
Phoenix's
residence, but my mom was able to buy it
in its later years and um
convert the upstairs rooms into uh rooms
that she rented out.
>> Oh, okay.
>> To pay the bills. And she had an
answering uh service downstairs
to pay the bills. So you lost him in the
>> There was running him out.
>> There was upstairs and an attic and a
bottom stair and a basement and spaces
under the house that us kids explored
and found. There were secret passages
all over that house.
>> Sounds like a fun place for a kid.
>> Yeah, it was. You know, we we found all
kinds of things there, but the little
man disappeared and I spent days trying
to find out how he got away.
>> That doesn't sound like a dream to me
either. Yeah.
>> And my uh it wasn't terribly
frightening. I didn't call it, oh, an
alien was trying to get me or anything.
It was just this little man woke me up,
you know. And so, but my my sister
doesn't believe me. She thinks I had a
vivid dream.
>> She she believes that I believe it, but
u
anyway, it was wearing the black
jumpsuit that Betty Hill describes. So
that's uh I've never really touted that
story very much
>> because it was just me with no
witnesses,
>> right?
>> And so take it or leave it, I believe
it, but uh I don't expect anybody to
believe anything that of of this nature
without some sort of evidence, you know.
>> Yeah, that is
>> witnesses, physical evidence, that kind
of stuff.
>> That is interesting. And that
Most of the stories I've heard,
the limited stories I've heard of people
that any interaction with aliens,
whether it's abductions, whatever,
it seems to be more than once. They seem
to come, you know, at an early time in
their life and then later on. So, I
mean, that's that's
>> you've probably heard me talk about my
antill theory. You know, if you're
walking by an antill, you don't stop and
say, "Hey, I think I'll stop and have a
conversation with that ant right there."
Right.
>> Yeah. It was how I I viewed it before
about people saying that aliens came and
contacted them. But now
I I think that if you saw one when you
were younger and one when you were
older, they know it's you. That there's
a connection between them.
>> Yeah. There's a reason. There is a
reason.
>> There's a basis for that.
They have huge heads and uh a lot of
intelligence. Um and I I draw the
analogy to the Utah data center. It's a
government computer complex covering
acres
in Utah
that requires millions of gallons of
water just to keep it cool.
and supposedly uh reportedly um is
recording every electronic transmission
on the face of the earth. Now, if mere
humans can keep track of that much
information,
super advanced species can probably do
it in their head, but
um
the idea that there's a connection
between these events is I think quite
plausible.
I do too.
>> And not accidental intentional for some
reason.
>> No, I think they
once they find a person or interested in
a person, I think they just want to keep
tabs on them and for some reason in some
way. And
>> but I definitely have not tried to
promote the idea that see that means I'm
something special. They're interested in
me because I have qualities they like or
something.
who knows what their
>> Mhm.
>> reason might be, but that's definitely
not it. I've never sought any notoriety.
I never sought out an interview or
um
any sort of um
public appearance. They they always
invite me. I don't ever seek them. So,
and other than that, I just keep to
myself. So,
>> yeah. You sound like me.
>> Even Even the book I wrote, I don't even
publish that I wrote a book or advertise
it anywhere. People find out it's there
and available and they seek me out and
order them. But other than that, my wife
thinks I'm crazy. Come on, get out
there, advertise it.
>> You'd sell a million of them. But, uh,
>> it's not you.
>> No, not me. But it's it's steadily keeps
me busy for the last 50 years
>> or 40ome years.
>> Well, I'm glad we had time to sit down
and talk.
>> Yeah.
>> Keep the waitress busy keeping this
here.
>> I just wanted to let you know that it's
on the house for you this afternoon.
>> Oh, well, thank you. That's great.
>> We thank you for joining the flying
self, sir.
>> Well, thank you for your service. Have a
great afternoon.
>> You, too.