Good learning happens through making
mistakes. Just seeing something many
times doesn't mean you'll remember it
well. You've seen the Apple logo so many
times, of course, you know all the
features, but then when you quiz people
and test them, and I do this in my
class, people aren't sure. Is the bite
on the left or the right hand side? Is
there a stem or a leaf? The best way to
remember something is to again failures.
I'll have you draw it without looking at
it and you struggling. Wait, is it on
the left or right? And is it stem or a
leaf? And you're starting to question
all of these things. Then when you look
at the logo again, you're going to
engage in better learning than if you
hadn't done that errorful kind of trial
beforehand.
>> Welcome to the Hubberman Lab podcast
where we discuss [music] science and
science-based tools for everyday life.
[music]
I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor
of neurobiology and opthalmology at
Stanford School of Medicine. My guest
today is Dr. Alan Castell. Dr. Alan
Castell is a professor of psychology at
the University of California, Los
Angeles. He is one of the world's
foremost experts on human memory and
cognitive aging. Today we discuss what
determines if we remember something like
a name or an event or how to do
something. And we discuss how to improve
our ability to remember information of
all kinds at any age. We also discuss
how anytime we plan or imagine something
about our future, we are always building
that on memories of our past and what
that means for our ability to come up
with new ideas and plans for our lives.
And we discuss how our memory changes
across the lifespan and why some people
retain exceptional cognitive abilities
well into their 80s and 90s and even
beyond and what any of us can do to
improve our chances of maintaining or
even getting better at memory as we age.
Indeed, while most people assume that
memory decline is an inevitable
consequence of getting older, Dr.
Castell explains research that tells us
the story is far more nuanced and more
optimistic. In fact, we cover one of the
more powerful and perhaps surprising
influences on our rate of cognitive
aging, which is your beliefs about aging
itself. And finally, we discuss
so-called superagers, which is the name
given to older adults whose memory
performance rivals that of people
decades younger. He explains which super
aer protocols are accessible to anyone
and how they can be incorporated into
everyday life to benefit our mental and
our physical health. Before we begin,
I'd like to emphasize that this podcast
is separate from my teaching and
research roles at Stanford. It is
however part of my desire and effort to
bring zero cost to consumer information
about science and science related tools
to the general public. In keeping with
that theme, today's episode does include
sponsors. And now for my discussion with
Dr. Alan Castell. Dr. Alan Castell,
welcome.
>> Thank you. Nice to be here.
>> You're going to tell us how to build up
and keep our memory. But let's start by
asking what is memory? Or rather, how do
you conceptualize memory from the
standpoint of we move through life, we
experience things, let's call it
passively, or we try to remember certain
things. What determines what information
we hold on to, how long, and so on? It's
a great question and memory is really a
mental representation of the past and by
its very nature it's reconstructive.
It's never always accurate and I think
that's why it's so mysterious and
fascinating that you and I can see the
same event and then remember it
differently a week or a day later. Um,
and it starts kind of almost at the
sensory level and sometimes our mind
plays tricks on us. And that's how I got
interested in this field that how can I
think I know something and yet not know
it as well as I do. And this is
something that's called metacognition or
awareness of our own cognition. And as a
personal anecdote when you know I was in
fifth or sixth grade I had one line in
the play The Wizard of Oz. It's a line I
practiced again and again. Listen
everyone, there's a cyclone on the way.
Hurry and get into the cellar. And of
course on opening night, listen
everyone, there's a seller on the way.
hurry and get into the cyclone.
>> Nice.
>> And I was thinking, how did I manage
that? Having memorized this line, most
of the audience probably didn't even
notice. But that to me was an early
exposure to memory is not always kind of
a function of what you do with the
information. And then, you know, in high
school, I had another exposure to memory
where I just memorized a lot of things.
And that got me pretty far in algebra
and chemistry. In fact, I almost
memorized the entire periodic table. But
this was using pneummonics, you know,
little rhymes or songs. And I realized
in my first year of college that I
really didn't have a strong
understanding of chemistry, even though
I could use all these terms. And
thankfully, I took an introductory
psychology class and I realized people
studied learning and memory and kind of
false memories and why memory can and
cannot be accurate. And I I was hooked.
I found that so fascinating and I still
do today. I'm both impressed and um
intrigued to ask more about memorization
of the periodic table. Uh first question
is about pneumonics and ways that we um
try and batch and learn information by
pairing it to other things. Trying to
remember a room full of people's names
and you know you uh could pair the first
letter of their name with a fruit or
what you know people do these things. To
me, that seems like a very inefficient
way to learn because you're adding more
information that you need to store away.
So, the first question is, is that the
best way to learn large batches of
information?
>> I think it's almost a workaround. And
that's the first kind of problem people
say is I can't remember names. And by
their nature, names used to be
descriptive of person's occupation.
Someone's a baker, we call them Mr.
Baker. But that's of course evolved with
time. and names. You know, I tell people
if you can't remember someone's name,
that's probably a natural forgetting,
but you remember if you had an
interesting conversation or you remember
if you can trust them, that's probably
more important. So then to engage our
kind of knowledge base so that we can
remember names, we need to make this
arbitrary link. And so I tell people my
last name is Pastel, Castell, you know,
Castell rhymes with pastel and my
grandfather used pastels, let's say. And
so people can then make this link. But
like you say, that's effortful. It takes
time. It takes time away from kind of
the essence of something else we could
talk about. And it also leads to these
kind of predictable memory errors. So
people say, "Oh, I remember his name was
Pastel." When in fact, it's Castell. So
I think we have to almost trick our
memory into remembering things that
might be somewhat arbitrary. And that
becomes more pronounced as we get older.
You know, there's more Davids, there's
more Andrews, and it's just more
interference. And so to get around that,
we have to, you know, use deliberate
practice, retrieval practice, use the
name several times. But I tell my
students whose names I often forget,
that I'll still remember topics we've
talked about or, you know, you know, how
they felt about something. And I think
that's more important than sometimes
just remembering a name
>> to remember chemistry or uh some other
subject that involves nomenclature. I uh
not everyday terms unless you're a
chemist but to really understand the
deeper mechanics of that thing and
remember that what are some better tools
I want to say and I'm not a memory
researcher that it might be helpful to
think in terms of verbs not labels so
rather than thinking about a particular
element just in terms of its name but
think about how it interacts with
something else or um how it gives or
receives a charge in uh you certain
conditions.
>> Absolutely. I think that's what you're
looking for is deeper learning, deeper
semantic learning. And this has been
referred to as levels of processing. So
I was working at a very low level of
processing when I'm, you know, making up
happy Henry, you know, for hydrogen and
helium. Um, but if you can start to
visualize things or interact with them
and that's why we want to have, you
know, chemistry labs or places where I
found chemistry very abstract. I think
that's why I didn't really engage with
it, but I found psychology to be
something that we were interacting with
every day. I was making these memory
errors. I saw my parents and
grandparents remembering and forgetting
things and I thought, you know, how does
that happen? And the brain is so complex
that I don't think we'll ever completely
understand, you know, why this me memory
error might happen. But I think this
awareness um is really important and a
lot of good learning happens through
making mistakes. Um you know, I you
know, I play piano and I, you know,
struggle and but I know when I make a
mistake, I'm going to have to work on
this. Um and I see that with my
children. And you learn a lot by making
these mistakes. And I think that
illustrates also how our memory works.
That just seeing something many times
doesn't mean you'll remember it well.
And this is a classic demonstration
that, you know, you've seen a penny many
times. You don't remember all the
features on the penny. I've updated that
to the Apple logo. You know, you've seen
the Apple logo so many times. Of course,
you know all the features. But then when
you quiz people and test them, and I do
this in my class, people aren't sure. Is
the bite on the left or the right hand
side? Is there a stem or a leaf? Um, but
if you make people draw it while they're
looking at it, they're going to remember
it better
>> while they're looking at the actual
>> while they're looking at it. Or if they
actually the best way to remember
something is to again failures.
>> I'll have you draw it without looking at
it and you struggling. Wait, is it on
the left or right? And is it stem or a
leaf? And you're starting to question
all of these things. Then when you look
at the logo again, you're going to
engage in better learning than if you
hadn't done that errorful kind of trial
beforehand. Even if you don't redraw it
correctly.
>> Exactly. Yeah. So this sort of thing is
you know in a in a academic setting we
don't want failure. We want people to do
well. But I think the sort of retrieval
failure with some you know corrective
feedback is really beneficial and that's
kind of how you learn through life. You
know you make mistakes and then you
correct them. But if you're constantly
just doing it the right way, you're not
really noticing these features. And
we've tried to extend this to other
domains like you know it's called
habituation. You stop noticing things
around you, like where the nearest fire
extinguisher is, let's say. And I
guarantee hopefully there's one
somewhere nearby and you've probably
walked by it many times, but you stop
noticing it. And it's only until you'll
need it, you'll realize, wait, where is
it? And so we've done this study where
you have to, instead of me telling you
where it is, you have to get up and find
it. And so now you're engaging with the
environment, you're going to go look for
it and be like, gosh, it's been there
the whole time. have walked by it so
many times have never noticed it. And I
think that's the difference between
seeing something and noticing it. So
someone who studies vision, we know a
lot of information reaches the retina,
but then how much of it reaches our kind
of more conscious level. And not all of
it does. And I think that's what makes
psychology interesting.
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to get up to 27% off. Yeah, the big
revelation for me when learning about
neuroplasticity, and it was such an
obvious one once I heard it, uh, was
that if you can perform a mental or
physical task, there's no reason for
your brain to change. You clearly
already have the circuit. So it's the
gap between desired performance and
current performance that actually
triggers the opportunity for plasticity.
>> Yeah. And those can be uncomfortable
positions, right? Where it's like, I
don't know this. Am I am I going to be
able to learn it? And I think that's the
this metacognitive aspect of when are
you aware of that? And a lot of learning
now is unsupervised learning.
>> You know, it's not that you're going in
classrooms and teachers are telling you
what to do. You want to learn a new
instrument,
>> you might do a lot of it on YouTube,
right? You're going to try and figure it
out. you want to learn new language, you
want to learn how to communicate with
people, there's going to be a lot of
trial and error. And I think kind of the
best learners are the ones who persist
um who are curious because that's how
you're going to get a lot of feedback
asking not just lots of questions but
the right questions. Yeah. Yeah. And I
think the frustration and agitation I do
believe that's the you know the release
of uh catakolamines you know epinephrine
norepinephrine and those change the
millu around synapses and um let them
change you know all the things that we
want to avoid are the things that
actually allow us to learn. It could be
that people that are very good at
learning and have this willingness to
embrace so-called beginner's mind. Like,
you know, like, okay, they're excellent
in one domain and they're perfectly
happy to be a raw beginner in a
different domain. I always wonder if
they experience agitation the same way
that anyone else would, but that they
don't have the same relationship to it.
Like, oh, here's that autonomic arousal
again, and you know, here it is. And
maybe they don't conceptualize as
frustration. So in terms of
>> getting better at learning and
remembering things um have you or any
other laboratories parsed kind of
people's um framework around it like I
know there's a vast literature around
growth mindset but but I'm I'm thinking
more in terms of how people
think about their own levels of
frustration because if you go oh like
here I am frustrated again awesome let's
go now's the opportunity versus h like
I'm I'm terrible at this I know I should
push through I I just wonder whether or
mindset can actually make a difference.
>> I think it can. I think our goals can
play a big role. A lot of the learning
we do is sometimes, you know, learning
to take a test or learning, you know,
something because it'll be on a test.
But as we get through life, we realize
you're interested in bird watching or
music or skateboarding. You know, a lot
of this is going to be observational
learning. It's going to be talking to
other people. So, I think it comes down
to curiosity, which is almost closing
this knowledge gap where here I am, but
I want to be here. How can I get from
here to here? And some of it is there's
a strong motivation there. And that's
something we've started to study with
older adults as well because um we know
memory declines happen with age, but not
all things change equally. And in fact,
there are certain memory systems that
might actually remain stable or even
improve. And I think some of the keys
here are curiosity, being interested in,
you know, listening to a podcast,
talking to someone else, closing that
knowledge gap, and then kind of
extending that and going further. And I
I sometimes find there's topics that I'm
not so interested in, but then there's
some that I will almost become obsessive
about that it's like I'm going to watch
that YouTube video and the next one and
the next one and then 45 minutes later.
And I think that that can be, you know,
kind of a waste of time in some ways,
but it shows that our brain is craving
this information. And uh that's
something that I'm really curious about
how that will change as we get older.
And some of our research suggests that
as we get older, we're more selective
about what we focus on. And I think that
can be beneficial. So maybe you don't
waste as much time on learn trying to
learn everything, but you're more
focused on the things you want to learn
about. Do we know that it's important to
continue to seek out new information as
we get older in order to maintain our
memory? Or is it sufficient to just make
some effort to remember the past, what
we need to do to get through our day?
You know, I think this gets down to this
question people think I really should be
striving to to keep my memory. Everyone
wants to keep their memory. Sure, that
makes sense. But how hard should people
push to learn new information as opposed
to you maintaining what they've got?
>> Yeah, it's a great question. I think
it's a little bit of both and you want
to have that sort of balance. So, if you
know, if you if you play piano, my
father in his 80s, 90s still plays
piano. I don't think he's learning new
pieces, but he's strengthening the the
pieces he knows and that keeps him
sharp. Um, on the other hand, being
exposed to new things, if you're
traveling, if you're talking to
different people, that can be really
important for things like even
neurogenesis. You want to, you know,
develop new brain cells, which we know
doesn't just stop as we, you know, reach
a certain age. [snorts] So, it's
probably a bit of both. And people ask
me, you know, what's the best thing to
keep my brain sharp as a cross word
puzzles? And that's interesting because
I think as we get older, our actual
verbal knowledge is maintained, if not
improved. So in a way you're
strengthening a strength and I think
that can be beneficial but probably the
other things to do are do new things.
you know, go outside and appreciate the
birds or talk to someone who has a
different perspective or you go to a
different restaurant even. All of these
things I find as I get older, I have a
lot of routines. But it's when I start
to violate these routines, take a
different way to work or, you know, try
something different at a restaurant, I
can almost feel like, wow, that was a
different experience today. I did
something else. And
>> I think so, I think both are really
important.
>> We do get set in our ways. That's a it's
a real thing. you know, [clears throat]
habits can be healthy and we can talk
more about that because there those
routines, you know, I drove this way and
I didn't get into a car accident or I
even noticed my students in my classes
after the first couple of weeks, they
all sit in the same seats. I'm always
like, why why is that? And it's like,
well, I didn't get attacked by a snake
here, so it's safe. Maybe evolutionarily
it makes sense. But I'll sometimes
halfway through the quarter say, okay, I
want everyone to get up and switch sides
and sit somewhere else. And students are
like, "This is terrible. Like, I have to
move." But there's some benefits to
having a different perspective uh both
physically and possibly mentally that
you're going to then remember things
differently. And I know if I've taken a
class in a different classroom every
year, I can almost revisit each of those
rooms and try and recall what I learned.
But if you learn all in the same spot,
there's a lot of interference. So I
think there there can be benefits to
changing our habits. Um but it can be
uncomfortable, especially at first. I
went to a lot of scientific meetings
early in my career and I would change
seats at after every break. It was the
only way I could stay awake through all
the talks. Some talks would naturally
keep me awake and some just wouldn't. I
mean, they don't tell you this, but
there are a lot of great talks at
meetings and often a lot of boring ones,
too. And you feel obligated to stay.
Later in my career, I gave myself
permission to get up and take a walk,
but you know, um, so I do think that one
learns differently. It even if you just
change the novelty of seat position.
>> Yeah. And I think that's a great example
of as you've gotten older, more
experienced. First of all, you give
yourself the leeway like, hey, I can get
up if this isn't working for me or I
want to see something else. But I've
also learned I learn better if I sit
over here and then over here and then
over here. And you know, that's those
are some principles of memory that I
think when you have this metacognitive
insight, um, you can use it effectively.
And I I've learned and I've seen my
children learn sometimes through
mistakes or sometimes this works better
for me. And I think that's fascinating
that we can do that.
>> It is interesting that almost everybody
has an experience of saying like a gaff
like saying something stupid or um
getting the wrong answer publicly and
the the shame and the arousal that comes
with that means a we we're never going
to forget the right answer, but we tend
to remember the experience of of of
embarrassment more. Yeah.
>> Than the it sort of swamps the
information somehow. And it just raises
this question for me is is there a
slight to severe
emotional tag on every memory we have.
>> I think you know a part of our brain
like the amydala that's involved in
processing emotions is is very active
and is maintained throughout age. It's
other parts of the brain tend to
decline. So I think you're right that
there can be an emotional attachment to
a lot of our memories. Some of them are,
you know, bittersweet. Some of them are
things we go back to for comfort.
Sometimes we even change them a little
bit so they fit the way we might have
thought they happened.
>> I think that happens
>> and that can be at large.
>> Sure. And that's part of our emotional
tuning like what makes us feel good. Um
some memories we don't want to revisit.
Some you know PTSD there's a lot of
research on how we can try and help
people. Um so I think memory can be
tuned that way and a lot of it can have
an emotional veillance and those are
usually the memories that we cherish.
They're the ones that we might be afraid
of. I I still remember even though I'm
not sure I remember it accurately this
Wizard of Oz and now when my daughter
was in Wizard of Oz I was like oh this
is such a great play so I was thinking
positively about it even though at that
time
>> of getting the line wrong
>> of getting the line wrong.
>> What do you think happened there?
>> You know I was probably just distracted
you know you do a lot of these dress
rehearsals. I'm not clearly I'm not an
actor but you do a lot of these
rehearsing and you don't see the
audience. You don't appreciate what's
going on. Um, especially when you're
young, you know, all of a sudden like,
oh, there's all these people watching me
and I know I know what I'm supposed to
say, but I kind of I'm not convinced
most people even remembered it. I'm not
even sure my parents were there, you
know? So, I think we then think of it as
a very strong emotional memory, but it
guides us. And to me, that that's a
lasting memory in a sense because it
kind of forced me to think, how does
memory really work? I thought I knew how
it worked. And I see a lot of people,
you know, studying in ways that aren't
always as effective. You know, we know
some of the work, this is colleagues at
UCLA studied desirable difficulties. How
can you make learning kind of
uncomfortable, but that you'll remember
things better? And it goes against a lot
of our intuitions. A lot of teachers
will want to say, how can we make
learning easier? And I think that's
probably the first problem is you don't
want it to be easy. You want it to be
not a struggle, but a challenge so that
you can appreciate just how difficult it
is. So, if I learned nothing else from
that Wizard of Oz is now when I, you
know, do a presentation or talk to other
people, I love to see the room I'm going
to be working in or maybe, you know, a
scientific presentation, maybe you've
done this, too. The night before you're
like, "Oh, this is the auditorium." And
probably raises your, you know, arousal
level, but it makes you feel more
comfortable than the day of.
>> I don't have a photographic memory. I
wish I did, or maybe I wish I I didn't,
but a long time ago, I decided, um, I
was in a in a really cool circumstance.
I was on a picnic. I think it was my
first girlfriend. And I remember
thinking like, gosh, she's so beautiful.
I'm just going to take a picture. We
were just sitting at this park that's up
in the hills behind uh where I used to
live. And I just went and I decided,
okay, like I remember the picture. Now,
of course, in my mind now, it's it's
blurry. Like I don't remember specific
details, but I remember more or less I
think I remember that the angle was
that. And then
>> like a year and a half ago, I was in uh
Manhattan. and I was in an Uber and I
just was like maybe I could just do that
for a like a trivial
>> street scene. So I just like look there
was that one of those scaffolds for
construction and I just decided you just
do that and there was a guy walking by
and I'm like I wonder if I'll remember
it and I still remember it. Now the
question I have is do I actually
remember the content of what I saw?
>> Mhm.
>> Besides just their crude, you know, the
scaffold, the guy in one case, you know,
my my girlfriend, we were sitting on
this nice big lawn above there this lake
there. It's it's a beautiful spot uh in
Palto still there. or is what's stamped
in my decision to do that and the and
the sort of conscious collection of it
is are is it these weren't like big
emotionally salient events where the the
difference between these visual memories
and other visual memories is that the
emotional load wasn't that high
>> but I made the decision to do it. It was
like it was coming from me.
So, I'm not just trying to remember like
like we also went to was her senior my
junior prom. Like I don't I remember a
few things from that prom,
>> but I can't reme I don't have a visual
picture of the prom, but the prom was
also a lot more emotionally,
you know, laden than anything I just
described. Does that make sense?
>> Yeah, it's a fascinating question
because I think selection is the
important thing here that you're making
a conscious decision like this is a
special moment. Can I just take a
picture of it? And the work on visual
memory is interesting. We are very
visual people but the research on
photographic memory does show that even
people who have very strong visual
memory will make memory errors. So it's
not that you know it's exactly
photographic but their visual memory is
exceptional. I think what's interesting
here and this is something I think is
important is the selection process that
you're choosing. This is a special
moment. I'm going to time stamp it and
remember it.
>> You're not, you know, doing anything
special other than realizing a lot is
going on. Now there's probably some
emotional veilance there. versus taking
this random picture in New York City.
>> And it would be interesting to kind of
test your memory later because we know
sometimes we think we remember something
well and in fact we misremember things
or details and hopefully you know you
got the right girlfriend of course but
maybe the hill looks a little bit
different or sometimes people are like
of course it was spring cuz we went to
the prom but it's like no actually now
that you know we it was a different
season entirely that was fall and
confusing with the other picnic I took.
M but I think that's important
especially as you know we get older that
there are some memories these days we
have our phones for everything so you
probably you probably couldn't then but
you could have pulled out your phone and
actually taken a picture and you see a
lot of people offloading information now
>> that you know I'm not going to remember
this I'll take a picture there is some
research showing that that act of
deciding to take the picture actually
improves your own memory
>> for the event
>> for the event.
>> Interesting. Now, it can also make your
memory worse because you're realizing I
want to I'm taking this photo so I don't
need to remember it later. And so, you
could see it going both ways, but that
selection process is important. So,
sometimes you're choosing this is
mundane. I'm going to offload it and
take a picture or this is a special
moment. I want to take this picture. And
I see it, you know, when I take pictures
of my family. This is a special moment.
I want to take this photo. But there are
times where I'm like, I don't have my
camera. I don't want to interfere. this
is going to be like an internal memory
that I can take um and hopefully it
lasts forever.
>> I tell myself that my mindset
[clears throat] at the time was this is
a special moment. I never want to forget
this.
>> Yeah.
>> I hope I never forget it.
>> Well, you know, memory is reconstructive
and I think, you know, the more you
retrieve it and go back there, the more
you'll have this feeling of remembering
it. And our brain does a lot of
interesting things in terms of, you
know, reconstructing the past also has a
similar brain signature as imagining the
future. which you know in some ways
makes sense. We shouldn't have separate
parts of the brain for thinking about
the past and thinking about the future.
But that can kind of then predict why
you might misremember something. Why
your imagination has to be based surely
on the experiences you've had already
right or you know if I say what would it
be like to go to Mars? Well you've never
been to Mars but you've seen movies in
the past about it. So our, you know, if
I said imagine a space alien, you and I
being similar age are probably going to
think of the ET version of one,
>> whereas someone who's younger than us
might have a very different kind of
representation of that. So it's
interesting to think of memory as kind
of a reconstruction of the past, but
also imagining the future involves, you
know, our past experiences.
>> Never thought about it that way. It's
the perfect time, I think, to raise the
quote that uh a former guest on this
podcast put on social media the other
day. They weren't his words, but this
Morgan Howell, who did a really
wonderful episode on the psychology of
money. Um, and I I really love his first
book, but also his second book u the art
of spending money. Um, he put out a he
said it's a Russian quote, "The past is
more unpredictable than the future."
Yeah. goodness, that raises questions
about eyewitness testimony, um, spousal
arguments. You know, I occasionally will
get an email, my wife and I are have a
debate or my husband and I are debate
and and I have a rule. I I don't get
into uh spousal uh debates or arguments
of any kind. So,
>> do we remember things the way they
happened or do we confabulate uh do we
um muck it all up?
>> You know, I don't think we muck it all
up and I don't think we do it
intentionally either. But as a result of
all the information we have in our
memory, we're constantly interpreting,
you know, the future and our current
state. And you spoke a little bit about
eyewitness memory. I think that's a
really good example of that where
something horrible might have happened
and like your experience where you think
you're taking a picture and you're going
to remember everything and it feels like
you will. I can remember the shirt. I
can remember the smell. I can remember
the weather. Um, and sometimes that can
be accurate, but a lot of research shows
that sometimes we misremember these
things. In some of these classic cases,
unfortunately, um, you know, now that
there's DNA evidence, you can determine
that maybe they got the wrong person.
And when that happens, you want to look
back and say, how could that happen? And
some of it comes down to faulty
eyewitness identification. And these are
not cases where people are lying or
intentionally changing things, but
they'll identify someone. They'll say,
"That's the person." And as a result of
identifying that person in a lineup,
that person then replaces what they
actually saw. So our memory can be
contaminated just like any form of
evidence could be contaminated. And then
when you replay it again, you're
replaying the person you identified, not
the person you actually saw. Wow. So
it's almost like we as we become more
familiar with this person that we
identified, quote unquote, our knowledge
about them, facial features, etc. is is
elaborated in our brain and we
superimpose that on the actual
experience.
>> Yeah. And and this is you know one of
the most famous cases Ronald Cotton case
where really horrible event happened um
and the woman made a point of trying to
remember her attacker. So it wasn't just
she got a quick glance but she had a
long interaction with him and that's you
know a traumatic event and she said if I
survive this I want to remember his face
so I can identify him later. So this is
like the the perfect situation where
your memory should be sharp. And um it
was crossra identification which we know
is not as reliable as identifying
someone of your own race. And when she
saw a lineup she identified she took her
time and said this feels like it's a
multiplechoice test. And I studied hard
for it. She took her time and she
identified the person and she thought in
her mind this is the person who was
inches from my throat. um and she
identified him and he had a an alibi
that didn't stand up and he was you know
then you know found guilty and it was
only you know decades later that DNA
evidence exonerated him and she felt
horrible. um she felt like, you know,
and there's a lot of reasons why this
could happen, you know, whether leading
questions or how the identification
process was conducted, but she was
trying to do what she felt was her job
and take someone who she thought was
guilty off the street and um later they
got to meet in fact and she you know
could apologize to him. She felt
terrible. And so this is one case study
and you know I wouldn't draw any
conclusions but it had a lot of the
principles that we've talked about where
you feel like you're taking a photo.
It's a cross race identification where
your confidence might be high for good
reason um but accuracy might not be and
then this kind of changing of the face
whereas once you identify the face
that's what you start to remember and so
I think there's a lot of interesting
memory principles at play here. How does
the legal system deal with this kind of
thing? I mean nowadays there's so many
more cameras and phones which can track
location. I like to think those things
have improved the courtroom scenarios uh
that it's harder for people to make
genuine mistakes.
>> Yeah. I think it's you know memory
should be treated as one source of
evidence just like DNA just like any
sort of evidence but also we need to be
aware that it can be contaminated just
like any other source of evidence as
well. So we can't just say oh well DNA
evidence is perfect. Well, it can also
be contaminated in predictable ways. And
I think, you know, coming back to this
idea of metacognition, most people feel
like they have a pretty good
understanding of how memory works,
>> but it's not always accurate. And
sometimes confidence, high confidence
doesn't necessarily mean high accuracy.
And I think part of the reason we're
fooled is usually, you know, the more
you see something, the better you'll
remember it, just like the Apple logo.
But that's not always the case. And
there's predictable reasons why. the
more you see something, the more you
might stop attending to the features or
you don't need to use it. And so that is
a more kind of predictable memory
principle. But we don't have this, you
know, always accurate metacognitive
insight. And I I think that's
interesting. I think that's both
concerning, you know, in the eyewitness
memory case, but it's also important for
learning. How can we be kind of
effective and maximize our learning?
>> I have a question about what I want to
call medium-term memory. I don't even
know if that's a real term. Short-term
memory. Working memory. Listeners to
this podcast may or may not be familiar,
but working memory is like keeping a
phone number online in your head or a
string of numbers um until you need it
and then kind of you may or may not
remember it long term. Long-term memory,
obviously. Long-term memory. But there's
this thing that I do. I'm there's today
is a bit of a confessional. So, um, when
I check into hotels, um,
um, I always look at the map of how to
get out in a fire because once staying
at a hotel in San Francisco for a donor
event, the alarm went off in the middle
of the night. Everyone, of course, stuck
their head out to look to see if anyone
was leaving and everyone like, "We're
not leaving." And then they called
everyone's room. It was an actual fire,
which taught me like when the alarm
goes, go. Right.
>> But,
>> and it was pretty confusing. Yeah,
>> wide hallways, wasn't clear. Exit sign
was not to like the actual stairwell. It
was, you know, was not a good situation.
But of course, got out fine. But from
now on, before I go to sleep, I go and I
look at [laughter] the where you are
here.
>> I look for the exit.
I occasionally walk the hall. I don't
want to be in this situation again.
Especially in a high-rise. I just do not
want to be in a situation where I can't
get out of a building that's on fire. I
figure it takes like 5 minutes. People
laugh at me. And I do this, but I make a
mental map. Okay, so let's assume it's
Smokeoky. I do this thing. Okay, I would
which is the closer door? I would go
right, then left, right, then left,
right. Okay, so I drill it in my head.
Good. And I go to sleep. I never
remember the maps, but it's not working
memory. It's not short-term memory. I
couldn't tell you for the life of me
what the last hotel map looked like in
my head. Had a you are here, red dot,
had doors, had exit. So it had these
component parts. But what term memory is
that? And thank goodness I don't
remember because it's going to change
every time I'm in a different hotel.
Yeah. So, what are the mechanisms that
allow for selective forgetting that's
healthy?
>> And also, is medium-term memory an
actual thing?
>> Well, I think when you're saying
medium-term, that's your everyday basic
memory function where you're like, I
need to remember things, but I don't
think I need to remember them that long,
but I really need to remember them today
or tonight, and it makes me sleep better
at night. And I've had a similar
experience. I was um staying in a hotel
with my family and the fire alarm went
off. And we're like, "What do we do?"
Well, we know we don't take the
elevator. That's what you're always
told. And I don't think I looked at the
map, but you could I looked down the
hall and I swear when I looked down the
hall, I saw smoke. And so I'm like,
"Let's not go that way." So, we went
down the other way. We rushed down the
stairs. We got outside and the kids were
pretty, you know, traumatic. And
actually, one of our children was like
eight stories ahead of us going down the
stairs. But what's interesting is I
thought I saw smoke and that's maybe I
didn't have my glasses on but that's my
mind playing tricks on me. So maybe that
was my concern. But I think that you
know this everyday memory is is really
relevant and um when you're studying
that map you're making notes of like
okay it's close by. It's down the hall.
I've got to go down here. Um and that
can be very informative and useful for
survival. And there's some research
saying that that's basically what our
brain is tuned towards is surviving. You
know, where am I going to eat? How am I
going to sleep? How am I going to um so
when you say everyday memory, I think
that's probably the most important
thing. And part of that memory formation
is also then forgetting it and updating
it. It's as simple as you you need to
know your hotel room number when you're
staying there. But if I ask you your
hotel room number a week later, it's
gone. But that's good in a way because
you're going to have other numbers to
remember and other hotel room numbers to
remember. So there's benefits of
forgetting. Um and you want to So I
think that's an interesting insight.
You're doing some processing to remember
something but then you need to update it
and forget it. Um and you know it's the
same thing. I think the best thing you
can do in that case is, you know,
studying the map is one thing, but some
people aren't great with maps and where
am I in the hotel is doing that active
learning of actually walking the halls
of like, well, I go down here and
there's there's the elevator, so I can't
go there. Oh, there are the stairs. I'll
remember that. And then you can kind of
encode it. So that sort of active
learning is like us with the fire
extinguisher. We made people get up and
find it instead of telling people where
it was. And I'm always, you know, when
you're on a flight, they'll always, you
know, say there's six emergency exits on
this plane. And then I think they do the
wrong thing. They they tell you where
they are. [snorts] I think the best
thing would be to say, you know, there's
six emergency exits on this plane. I'm
>> not going to tell you where they are.
[laughter]
>> Well, I'm not going to say not where
they are, but go find them. And I
notice, maybe it's just myself being
anxious, is as soon as they say that,
I'm looking behind me. I'm making sure I
know where they all are.
>> Whereas most people are like, "Oh, they
pointed here, here, and here. And I'll
even say sometimes the nearest one is
behind you. And I'm like, well, I want
to see where it is behind me. And so I
think that sort of act of learning,
whether you call it everyday memory, is
is really important. And I think when we
talk about memory, people are like, I
can't remember names. I'm like, that's
kind of a common thing.
>> But if you you need to sometimes
remember like what medication are you
taking or how did you react the last
time you saw this person? And those
sorts, I think it's really important to
be in tune with what you're calling this
kind of everyday average memory. I'd
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Thank you for that. And I'm going to use
that as weaponry when I get teased for
uh walking the the fire exits. But it
was because the in part because the
first time people were asking, "Hey, do
you know if we should leave? Do you know
do you know which way to go?" And I
realized, "Okay, next time it might as
well be me. I I'll be the guy that knows
which way to go." Certainly for myself.
And then I can tell other people which
way to go. Nobody else here knows where
to go. And most likely they're not going
to know the next time. I do the thing on
the plane, too. I think, okay, I
actually read the thing of how to Yeah.
take it out because I figured well I've
experienced how under conditions of very
high arousal you just default
>> to what almost feel like whatever was
trained whatever reflexes you have I
mean I had a scuba diving accident years
ago and I don't like to say you know
came close to the end but it was an air
failure and it was a whole mess and you
just default to
>> yeah we had to do the whole share error
thing it was a precarious situation to
begin with and and you just default to
these routines actually recently I
watched what I think is a spectacular
documentary about Dean Potter, who was a
he was a free solo climber, a
predecessor to um to Alex Honold.
>> Um he was kind of the guy to beat and
Honold passed him up pretty early, but
and he got into wing suiting and base
jumping and the whole thing. And there
was this um there's a scene where um so
be warned if you watch this amazing
four-part series. There's a scene where
uh people were doing base jumping in
Yusede are advocating for it being legal
in Yusede. It's illegal. And so there
were a bunch of spectators there and
they were doing this big demonstration
jump. And a woman who was a very very um
seasoned base jumper, she didn't want to
use her own gear because they were
confiscating people's gear at the
bottom. So, she borrowed someone else's
gear and she jumps and she's used to
pulling from a leg a leg pull I guess it
is. And you just see her the whole way
down.
>> The whole way down. And she's got, you
know, she's got a parachute on.
>> Yeah.
>> And just, you know, um not to give it
away, but I guess, you know, um gave it
away that uh she
dies. But the whole way down, you can
see her just doing this routine
movement.
>> Yeah.
>> And she put on a different pack. She
knew that it was a different pole
location. So under conditions of very
high arousal,
>> even highly highly trained people um for
that that condition, they just default
to whatever it is that they're used to
doing. And if you don't know what to do,
you default to not knowing what to do.
If you know what to do, you default to
what you think you need to do in one
situation. And I've I've had that
experience scuba diving. It's very clear
from this documentary. the and I think
we're all a little naive in thinking
that oh no like when the alarm goes and
everything is crazy like I'm going to
sort through this in a in a regimented
way like or I'll be so keyed up I'll
I'll have to figure it out. This is not
quite the case. The brain seems to not
work that way.
>> Yeah. I think we discover that um you
know in these extreme situations but
also even kind of in some simple
situations there's there's a really
concerning thing that happens that
people will leave children infants in
the back of their car
>> unattended and you know and these
infants will will die on hot days. When
you look at these investigations, the
reason this happens is, you know, these
are very responsible, very intelligent
parents who will, you know, put their
child in the car and then get in the car
and then you just get in this mode of
I'm going to work. I'm going to do my
job and you're in this routine. The baby
falls asleep, you drive to work, you go
upstairs, you do, and then you and then
you get this phone call of like, where's
your infant or why haven't they been
dropped off? And you're thinking, what
what are you talking about?
>> Whoa.
>> Exactly. I'm sure many people listening
to this are like there's no way. There's
no way.
>> Well, I think there's like there's no
way that could happen to me. This must
be some person who's super distracted or
has this. Sadly, it happens too often to
people of, you know, all sorts of
people. And I think that's part of the
issue is like like you were saying,
she's going to grab the strap where it
normally is. You drive to work a hundred
times this way, but it's this one day
where it was your turn to take the
infant to daycare and you just get into
this mode, this habit, this routine. And
now we have to have, you know, our car
talking to us. You know, some cars will
even say, you know, have you checked the
back seat for an infant? It's like,
gosh, have we come to that level where
we need to be reminded of these things?
So I think that's where you know it it
you're right it becomes lethal that you
know sometimes it's talked about in
terms of prospective memory remembering
to do something in the future. We think
of memories usually as remembering to do
some from the past right but a lot of it
is you know what do you have to do
today? Are you meeting this person? We
have offload this to our phones and get
reminders. Um but we're prone to
forgetting and um especially under
you're talking about high arousal. this
person's falling. But it's even as
simple as when you're in the car and and
you're probably aware when you're in the
car, you start mind wandering. You're
thinking of a million other things and
all of a sudden you've arrived somewhere
or you missed your turn. So our brain
kind of takes over in ways that we might
not be sure about. Yeah. One of the
things that spooks me about scuba diving
and I love scuba diving is, you know, I
got my Patty certification because it's
a bit more involved, but it worries me
that you actually don't have to update
and if you do, not very often. You can
It's been gosh it's been four or more
five years since I went scuba diving
last time. I've got my card. I have my
gear
>> and if somebody wants to go scuba diving
tomorrow I can do it legally.
>> Yeah.
>> But there's a lot involved you know like
you need to brush up. And so you know I
mean here in the United States we have
all this like you know people can sue
each other there all these legal
protections but there's still a lot of
ways in which we can do damage to
ourselves or others just by virtue of
the fact that we're we don't have to
brush up on driving skills. Yeah,
>> you know, it it's kind of a shock to me
that we don't have more more problems
related to forgetting.
>> It's true. I think the more you think
about it, it's amazing how much we do
remember, especially under some
circumstances. But I agree that a lot of
this, you know, scuba diving, too,
because you're underwater with, you
know, buoyancy, you have to figure
things out. And I got certified, too,
when I was 20. I wouldn't trust myself
to to do it again. I'd want to probably
take the entire course again. Um, and
maybe but when you're 30 maybe you feel
confident and you know especially
drivers like new drivers you know you
give very little training to younger
drivers and then you're like you're on
your own. Uh I've seen it with my
children learning to drive. I also
realize I'm not as good a driver as I
thought I was. I'm certainly passing on
some habits that I probably should be
more aware of and they're more
rulebased. They're aware of how to do
things. But I have this feeling like
this wisdom. Well, you don't need to do
that or you know that's the rule, but I
do it this way. So, I think you're
right. I think we revisiting these
things more often and being more
cognizant probably would make us safer.
On the lighter side, um many people who
are concerned about their memory as they
age will ask about forgetting. Um, I
want to know why as people get older,
they tell the same stories over and over
again, same jokes over and over again.
Have they forgotten that they've said
the joke or they just doing it for their
own entertainment or [snorts]
I don't know like what what is this
about? Like I feel like someone needs to
do that study like like why why
[clears throat] do people tell the same
stories as they get older? I I think
there's a lot of reasons and you know a
lot of memories do change with age and
some forms of memory like source memory
uh tends to decline with age. You can't
remember where you saw the headline or
who you told the joke to. Um and
sometimes I'll even say, you know, have
I told you this before? But sometimes
it's just such a good joke or such a
good memory. I'm like, I don't really
care because I'm going to tell it to you
again because I'm enjoying this. And my
kids will be like, yeah, we've heard
that so many times. I'm like, yeah, but
it's so good. So, it's probably a little
bit of both. But I think there's also
some nostalgia. Like we do share family
histories this way.
>> And I think you know when families get
together for Thanksgiving there's this
rehashing of do you remember when this
happened? It's like yeah we tell that
story every time. Um a lot of our
histories used to be oral histories
where you know we're telling stories and
reminding people and it's how we
determine what foods were safe. But
yeah, I can see it's certainly
frustrating and I think we think gosh
I'm talking to this older person.
They're telling me the same thing again
and you're nodding. But I I take a
certain amount of enjoyment from it.
There's a nostalgia. Um there's also a
feeling of familiarity.
>> And so probably it's it's a collection
of things. But you do see more
pathological aging that people will
completely forget. Um you know, they'll
say the same things. They'll ask,
"What's for dinner again?" 5 minutes
later, "What's for dinner again? What's
for dinner again?" And that's where it's
probably more concerning. Um but it is
an interesting thing to note that as we
you know get older we might engage in
that sort of behavior.
>> What is the consensus now on Alzheimer's
and memory loss generally? Meaning is it
inevitable that people lose some amount
of memory and um conditions like
Alzheimer's are just a more rapid
downward trajectory and we could talk
about super aers. These people that seem
to maintain cognition well better than
their their peers anyway. Are there
people who just, you know, are sharp
till the day they take their last breath
and that last breath comes in their 90s
or even past 100?
>> Yeah, I think just the the diversity
that accompanies aging is really
interesting. You could look at a
100-year-old who's doing really well and
a 60-year-old who's not doing so well.
So, we can't just use kind of biological
age as as the marker. Um, and as a
psychologist, of course, I'm interested
in psychological aspects. Um, and
there's, you know, an old study on nuns
who, you know, it's interesting to see
how you can test different people, but
nuns are very committed to their their
profession. Um, and you found that these
nuns, how they aged, some of them
certainly when they passed away, their
brains had these kind of hallmark signs
of dementia, plaques and tangles, but
behaviorally they were still high
functioning. So, it's really interesting
that the hardware shows what we see as
dementia and specifically Alzheimer's
disease, but their behavior uh was that
of a fairly healthy cognitive person.
So, something else has to be going on.
And you know, it could be some people
say it's having a sense of purpose,
could be having social connections. We
know that's incredibly important. I
think we do have a certain amount of
control over it. And some of it might be
based on physical exercise and sleep. So
I know things you've talked about before
and some it is having kind of a positive
attitude about aging that if you feel
like you you know some people say well
it's all genetic so what do I have to
do? Well if you go on a walk some really
good research shows that you know
walking three or four times a week um
can enhance hippocample function the
part of the brain that's very involved
in declarative memory. Um and that part
of the brain you know having turned 50
recently tends to decline by about one
to two% a year in terms of volume. So
this is kind of physical shrinkage of
the brain.
>> But in the walking group the group that
was randomly assigned to walk three four
times a week for 40 minutes compared to
a stretching group who's still engaging
in exercise but not cardiovascular
exercise. The walking group their you
know hippocamp is actually increased in
volume by 1%. So you're changing the the
brain, but you're also changing the
behavior. Their memory was much better a
year later. So I think, you know, if you
saw a doctor and said, you know, I'm
having some memory problems. What can I
do? Most people are looking for a pill
or, you [snorts] know, sometimes it's
eat this or do that. But I think
physical exercise can be so important.
Uh, and it probably the mechanism we
don't know exactly, but it probably
trickles down to things like
improvements in sleep as well. M you
know if you're getting exercise maybe
earlier in the day you're going to have
better mood you're going to sleep
better. We know a lot of memory
formation happens when you're sleeping.
Uh we know as we get older our sleep
quality tends to decline even if our
quantity tends to increase. So I think
just knowing that there are some things
we can do and I'm using physical
exercise as the example and it doesn't
have to be you know the extreme version.
um walking, dancing, um a lot of people,
you know, enjoy being outside. Uh that
can be incredibly important to offset
some of the things we do know can can
lead to dementia.
>> Was the walking vigorous?
>> You know, in this group, I think it's
really 30 to 40 minutes. And there's
nothing special certainly about walking,
but it's something where you can
randomly assign people to either walk or
engage in stretching.
>> So if you're biking, if you're swimming,
if you're dancing, any of these things
can be beneficial. But here it's, you
know, you can randomly assign people to
walk and and it should be at a rate
where you're, you know, there's research
showing that the people who walk
slightly faster actually live longer.
Um, so, you know, you're not sure
exactly
>> reverse causality there.
>> Could certainly be that. And and a lot
of this research, it's tough to do aging
research because it's hard to randomly
assign people to to certain conditions,
>> but I think as a psychologist, knowing
that you have a little bit of control
over the process is important. And I
think, you know, most people when they
talk about aging, they're so worried
about dementia and, you know,
Alzheimer's disease as a specific form,
but balance is even more important, I
think. And most people aren't even aware
of their balance.
>> So, one in four people over the age of
65 will experience a fall. And that fall
can be very detrimental. You can break
your hip, your collar bone. Often, you
know, you're getting up at night more
frequently. You trip over a carpet or a
rug. And you know, if you're in bed
recovering from these falls, you're not
walking. You know, your hippocampus is
shrinking. If you ask people, "How's
how's your balance?" Most people are
like, "Well, it's fine. I I don't
haven't had a fall." But there's a very
simple test. We could do it now if you
wanted where you just stand up and see
if you can balance on one leg for at
least 10 seconds. And I have, you know,
when I do presentations, I do this
ideally 30, 40 minutes into the
presentation. We shouldn't be sitting
for so long. And most people do pretty
well. it's a younger group and sometimes
it's older adults I'm speaking to and
you can tell you know I'm like make sure
you have something you can hold on to
and you can tell that balance changes
considerably with age
>> and then I say okay now try doing it
with your eyes closed
>> and I actually usually don't do this
with my older adult group because then
you see the younger people start to tip
and you know it's very we get a lot of
cues from our visual environment for
balance
>> the young the older people tip
>> everyone you'll see the younger people
start to tip that's why it's even more
surprising It's like a field sobriety
test.
>> It very much is, but it's this again
from this metacognitive standpoint where
you think your balance is fine because
you haven't had a fall, but you could be
close to falling at any given point. And
so, you know, the cerebellum, the almost
very primitive part of the brain is
involved in a lot of this. What's
interesting with balance is it's very
trainable. And so, you know, there's
parts of balance that involve visual
inner ear, but if you engage in some
training, and it can be as simple as
standing on one leg or doing yoga or
taichi, you can improve your balance
considerably within a month or two. And
so, I think when I talk to older adults
who, you know, sometimes are even
middle-aged, worried about their memory,
I think balance is often overlooked and
it's something that's trainable. Um, so
I've started to do it a little bit and
I've noticed changes in my balance.
>> Sometimes good. I also notice I don't
sleep well. my balance isn't as good.
Um, and I think that's probably the most
important thing to be on the lookout for
because, you know, these things are
related. If you if you lose your balance
and you have a fall, you're not going to
be engaging physical exercise. Your
memor is going to decline.
>> Yeah, the old skiers and the uh old
surfers look to be in pretty awesome
shape. Um, there are million compounds
there. The sunlight, the social
connection, the water, the cold, the,
>> you know, I mean, there are a bunch of
things. Um, obviously it's not just the
skiing or the surfing, but there are
certain sports where you look at the
people and you say, "Okay, they're not
the biggest and strongest, nor are they
the ones with the most endurance, but on
balance, they seem strong. Their posture
looks good."
>> Yeah.
>> Um, they seem relatively happy. Who
knows, right? I'm intrigued by the fact
that I look at a lot of these videos of
of uh super aers and athletes in their
70s, 80s, 90s who are doing remarkably
well. It's very rare to see a video of
athletes or non-athletes past 80 where
they're breathing through their nose
with their mouth shut. Almost always you
see, [sighs and gasps]
>> now I'm not saying it's causal,
>> but there does seem to be a shift in the
way that people breathe as they get
older. look at some of the um I forget
his name now. He's a television um
personality u who's been around a long
he's in his hundreds and he's been on
YouTube in the news programs recently.
But at rest it's like a mouth open
breathing pattern. You kind of wonder
whether or not they're getting enough
oxygen to their brain. And I I do think
that the shift in how we breathe,
spontaneous movement, these things all
go together.
>> Um and I do think each
>> component part needs to be looked at
individually.
So, okay. So, it's the movement, it's
the exercise, the novelty, the social
connection, but ultimately there's a lot
of other things going on. Like, we know
older people just don't they don't move
spontaneously very much. We had Twilight
Tharpin here, the you know, world famous
choreographer, and she's in her
somewhere in her 80s. You know, she can
>> deadlift um twice her body weight.
>> Works out at 5:00 a.m. every morning for
two hours.
>> Wow.
>> She boxed for a while.
>> Um but actual boxing cuz she's Twilight,
right? She's a she's a really uh she's
got a lot of spirit, but
>> she doesn't sit like I'm sitting like
kind of lazy back. She's she's fully
active and she's she's moving and she's
nasal breathing when unless she's
speaking like she's
>> she's her nervous system is turned on. I
notice that and I go, God willing, I'll
be I'll be like that. But I notic with
each passing year, I take a few more
opportunities to lean against things as
opposed to standing up, not leaning
against them or starting to resemble the
bulldogs I've owned. There's opportunity
to lie down, they lie down. If there's
opportunity, you know, sleep and I don't
know that that's good. Maybe we need to
nudge ourselves to be a little more
active than we're comfortable. I think
the insight is so important to be like,
I notice I'm doing more of this or I'm
looking a lot like this and I'm
surprised things starting like posture
or even breathing. And I think, you
know, I'm not an expert in this area,
but just getting more oxygen to the
brain is so important. And I think
that's probably the mechanism be, you
know, for physical exercise, you're
getting more oxygen to your brain, which
really as you get older, it's harder to
do that. And so exercise might be kind
of the mechanism um that does that. And
maybe with the, you know, advances,
we're going to find other ways to do
that. Uh but I think that insight is is
really important. And it's also, you
know, we have age-based stereotypes of
what happens, like, oh, as you get
older, you know, let's say, you know, my
knee hurts and some people are like, oh,
well, you're just getting older.
>> Well, my other knee is the same age and
it feels fine. [laughter]
>> So, something's going on. Maybe there's
some trauma. There's something. But it
does give you this feeling like, hey,
there's something I can do. Or maybe you
know I'm a firm believer like in
physical therapy like a lot of the
exercises we do you know if you keep
doing the same thing that's great but
then you lose a lot of the other you
know muscle mass and you know I think
exercise
>> even walking people will say it's really
like a controlled form of losing your
balance and regaining it and losing your
balance and regaining it
>> and so you add that into hiking which is
has unpredictable surfaces you know all
these muscles that are you know you're
not using too often now have to be
engaged and so I
I think that coming back to like
challenging yourself can be very
important. Putting yourself in
uncomfortable positions. I mean, it's
great to be on this podcast, but there's
a time where I'm like, I'm not sure I
want to do this, right? Like, you know,
how do you get that?
>> You feeling that way now?
>> No, now I feel fine. But I think as we
put ourselves in these uncomfortable
positions and
>> I remember, you know, when I first
started teaching, you're like, gosh, 300
people, you know, is this this is an
uncomfortable situation. And one of one
of my mentors said, you know what?
there's only one thing you need to do
and that's breathe
because you start to forget that you
know that is the most primitive thing to
get oxygen to your brain that then you
can do what you probably can do quite
well
>> and that's a a psychological oversight
where we just kind of start I don't know
if it's just mouth breathing but as we
get older you know or there's more
stress we stop being aware of you know
the things that can really help us I
notice with each passing year I get a
little more difficult with myself about
the little things, you know, just like
so I try to this day I have to push
myself. I take the stairs a little bit
faster than I want to. I I don't take
escalators unless there's no stairs
available. Um when I travel I really I
find I but I have to push you know
>> I I have to I mean perhaps um uh you
know collateral advantage of doing this
podcast is I say things like that and
now I don't want to get spotted in an
airport on an escalator. Um, the other
day I normally train at home gym, but I
was in a commercial gym and I was
listening to music on my phone and this
kid came up to me and he tabed. He goes,
"I thought you don't use your phone when
you work out." I was like, "Sometimes I
listen to things I just don't I'm not
texting and sending messages." And he
was like, "Okay." You know, it's like,
"Wow, well, I have to be careful what I
say." But it's nice. It actually has a
forcing function, right? Um, and I think
that as we get older, there are a lot of
things where we're not being observed.
We're we're not we know we should do
them, but then we don't do them. And I
think the injury thing is uh and the
pain thing is is is a big one.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, I I I hear this all the time,
you know, like, yeah, I would exercise
more, but I got this shoulder thing. I
got this. And I think that's why there's
so much excitement about these peptides,
and it's still very unclear, you know,
what's going to be useful or not.
Actually, there's a study out of Helen
Blau's lab at Stanford
um on mice and humans where they found
an inhibitor of the molecule that
inhibits cartilage regeneration. They
knock out this inhibitor or they have a
drug um kind of analog that can do this
in humans and they observe regeneration
of knee cartilage. I I'm sure this is
going to be sourced to pharma. That's
going to be the path because that's the
typical path for labs at Stanford if
they have a discovery like that. But
>> how cool would that be? Yeah,
>> right now, knock on wood, I have
[clears throat] like no no joint issues,
but how cool would that be? Because I
think a lot of people just think, well,
the body wears out.
>> Yeah,
>> you know, the hip wears out, the knee
wears out. And so when they have that
pain, they don't think they could
overcome it by by movement. They they
assume, well, you know, the chassis is
kind of going and then, you know,
>> well, a lot of this, you know, comes
down to habits and some of it is
motivation, right? It's hard to get
motivated to go to the gym. And as you
get older, more aches and pains. It's
like harder to get up. it's easier to
sit down. But I think knowing you have
some control over it that you know a lot
of especially in midlife people have
back pain. It's probably the most common
thing and it's probably from sitting you
know we work a lot and especially in
midlife there's some interesting you
know it's not always a linear decline
with age and in fact there's some
interesting work on you know happiness
being more curve linear like midlife is
actually some of the lowest levels of
happiness and life satisfaction
>> really like our age 50 really
>> so I hope in some ways that can well in
some ways it can make great yeah well it
can make you feel good because it you
know a lot of people who might not feel
great at 40 or 50 if you said, "Well,
actually that's the lowest point in the
graph and it can actually get better
with age."
>> Mhm.
>> The title of my book,
>> but it makes you realize that as we get
older, there are more aches and pains.
And yet, why are older adults, some of
them who are fairly healthy and active
are doing really well, whereas kind of
when you're younger and your body's in
decent shape, we're doing things like
sitting, we're working a lot, we're
stressed, we're not handling our
emotions as well as we could. And so I
think that's why aging is an interesting
thing that you know we think when we're
young that's you know the best times in
our lives. It actually might be some of
the most confusing times.
>> Are you happier at 50 than you were at
40?
>> I think I am. I think I'm more content.
>> Um but when I was at 20 or 30 I could do
whatever I want. I could scuba dive. I
could play basketball. I'd bounce back
from an injury.
>> Your was your internal landscape more
peaceful or more?
>> Absolutely not. And I actually see it in
a lot of undergraduates who are like
it's a confusing time. You're trying to
figure out what you want to do. You're
trying you're in a different place. You
have different partners. It's a you know
and yet we say we almost romanticize
that college is the best time in your
life.
>> Oh my god. No.
>> Yeah.
>> I am I I'll say I even though I am very
happy 40 was rough. My 40th birthday I
was like this is rough. And coming up in
sciences, I loved doing it. Loved the
experience. But it was very stressful.
Raising money for your lab. A posttock
is a very uncertain time. A lot of
uncertainty,
>> a lot of stress.
>> Yeah.
>> And now I I mean, I have stressors, but
I
>> I I view them differently.
>> I feel completely differently about
stress in general. I mean, I do a lot of
things, but I I I don't think teen
years, certainly not for me, or 20s or
30s are the best years of your of your
life. Yeah. I I can attest like it
didn't suck, but it it was rough.
>> I mean, there's fun parts to it and
there's a lot of novelty and you did
things then that you probably wouldn't
do now, but I think when we talk about
aging, we're talking about how how
negative it can be and all these things
that can happen physically, but a lot of
the older adults I talk to and I've
interviewed for my book are saying
actually 60 or 70 is probably the best
time in my life.
>> Nice.
>> Yeah. that makes me [clears throat] feel
I mean it's a select group who I'm
talking to but it's not like it's the
best time in terms of my aches and pains
or you know sure I wish I was 40 for
some reasons but those times can be very
challenging and stressful so from a
psychological standpoint it's
interesting to look at these kind of
nonlinear dynamics it's not a linear
decline it's not that happiness just
gets better with age there's there can
be this midlife dip and you know some
I'm not a clinical psychologist some
people call this you know midlife well
of course there's
conflict at midlife. Well, there's
really conflicts at every stage. Some of
the, you know, Ericson's work on said
every decade there's a conflict and it's
how you resolve it allows you to kind of
move on to the next stage of life. And I
think um, you know, sometimes we don't
think about midlife as much as well,
this is what happens when you're young
and this is what happens when you're
old.
>> And it's probably how you deal with what
happens in the middle which allows you
to age well. Um, so when I'm, you know,
when I talk about aging, most of the
older adults I talk to, I'm not
educating them on how to age well.
They've, they're there and they're doing
it, it's often middle-aged people who
are like, well, I have older parents.
Um, you know, how are most people when
they're 20 or 30, they're not thinking,
what's my life going to be like when I'm
70 or 80?
>> Yeah. Even now, that's hard for me to
conceptualize.
>> Sure. Yeah. I just try and do the best I
can to take care of myself every day so
that maybe I'll hit hopefully I'll hit
60 70 feeling great. I actually feel
better physically now than I did in my
40s and 30s, but I was working so much
then. You know, a lot of people I'm not
boasting. It's actually probably should
be more of a point of shame. I don't
really recommend it for most people. I I
mean I
>> I worked nonstop and I don't know that
I'd wish that on anyone. And I think a
little more balance would have been
healthy. Now I work a lot, but I
definitely take time to to meditate, to
pray, spend time with people in my life.
Like I really try and savor things a bit
more.
>> Yeah.
>> Um the problem with academic science as
you know is there's always a deadline or
revision or or something. There's always
something. So once you realize there's
always something.
>> I think it's in a lot of professions,
you know, people are very driven early.
They have to prove themselves. You're
either you're trying to survive, make
money, make a name for yourself. And
that puts a lot of stress on you. And as
you get further along, you might realize
maybe it's not worth it or maybe I need
to backtrack or maybe there's more
important things. And I think it really
does come down to balance. And um you
know, John Wooden, the UCLA basketball
coach, I got to interview him uh you
know, he was in his 90s and he said it
really comes down to two things. And I
thought, "Oh, this is great. You know,
Coach Wooden is going to tell me, you
know, the two things." And he thought of
himself as a teacher, not just a coach.
So he did, you know, a very effective
thing. He had me guess those two things.
The two most important words in the
English language is how he said it. And
here I am a student again. And I'm
thinking, gosh, he's a coach, so I don't
know. Success, teamwork, what is it? And
he said, you know, the most important
thing is love. Be around the people you
love. Do the things you love. Um, and
you know, he lost his wife well before
he passed away. He wouldn't sleep on her
side of the bed. He would write her a
letter every month.
>> Wow. um you know he had report cards
from his grandchildren's on the on on
the wall right next to letters from
presidents you know so he's really
surrounded by a a great community former
players calling his former players were
by his bedside when he passed away and
then the second most important word is
something I think a lot of people
struggle with we're talking about is
balance and it's um partly physical
balance he did have a fall
>> um you know like we were talking about
and it's interesting because he had a
life alert around, you know, that he
could press around his neck. And this is
why I think technology is great. Maybe
there's ways we can prevent falls or but
he fell in the middle of the night. Um,
and he broke his his collar bone and his
wrist and he had this life alert button,
but he didn't press it
>> because of pride.
>> Exactly. He didn't want to bother any
>> that Y chromosome.
>> Yeah. It's a [laughter] very but you
know it you give people all this
technology and you know and then you
realize there's a psychological part to
it as well. He waited until the morning
his caretaker arrived rushed him to the
hospital. Thankfully he survived but
that's pride, guilt, shame, didn't want
to bother someone. So that's the
physical balance. And then I think the
mental balance as he said like you were
saying is he was a very driven person.
He was very successful with his
coaching, but it meant a lot of time
traveling, a lot of time away from his
family, not focusing on the things that
he found incredibly important. And as he
got older, he felt like he could achieve
more balance. You know, spend more time
doing the things he wanted, be around
the people he wanted. And I think that's
a struggle for a lot of people. We get
really into something and, you know, we
forget about it. You know, we're having
a conversation. It's hard to stand up.
You know, it's, you know, you get
focused on things. But as you get older,
maybe you're a little bit better at
finding that balance and finding that
peace.
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Yeah, the notion of having to prove to
oneself or even to others that one can
do something, that's a kind of a
hallmark of being younger. Yeah, I
suppose some people escape that, but I
think most people struggle with that
social comparison thing
>> and it can be very useful as a as a
lever.
>> Um, can generate a lot of hard work,
great work through competition. um even
competitions in one's own head, but you
know, eventually you realize like you're
the only one in this fight, you know,
and uh I don't know. I I this podcast
has a very um broad uh audience in terms
of age ranges. And so I it's a it's
interesting the the younger crowd, let's
just say 35 and younger, tend to have
questions about how to pick direction,
what what direction to go.
Um
>> the older crowd um generally is asking
about things related to keeping their
memory, their health and these days
asking a lot of questions about whether
they should revise their notions of what
age appropriate physical ability or
mental ability should be. I think that's
a big shift.
>> Mhm.
>> Out there right now because um you know
20 years ago it was assumed you know
people would hit 70 or 80 and start to
slow down and you know now people are
like well if I feel great at 50 maybe I
could feel great at 60. If I could feel
great at 60 maybe I could feel great at
90. You know the possibility feels real.
And I'm not talking about living longer.
I actually don't consider myself a
longevity person. Sometimes I'll get
lumped there. It's like I've never
actually focused on that. Yes. I think
it's great to live as long as you can at
a a vibrant life, but what do you think
about the messaging that we could go
longer or could make more of our time?
Do you think it's net positive or do you
think that's creating a pressure for
people to not live into their the
reality that hey, they're like 70 and
maybe slowing down and maybe telling
those stories two or three times that
maybe maybe they're supposed to shed
wisdom and and not supposed to be uh
jogging around the block. Yeah, it's so
interesting to see these age age age
related differences, but also to see how
that's shifting and we're certainly
living longer or you know, for the most
part if you look at our history and
there's a variety of reasons for that,
but you want to make sure those years
that we're adding are healthy ones. Um
because the longer you live, the greater
the chance of developing dementia. Um I
think from a psychological perspective,
it's interesting because uh you know, if
you ask someone how old do you feel?
That's very different than your
biological age. Let's say you didn't
have access to your birth suit. Your
parents actually said, "Sorry, we can't
actually remember how old you are."
>> How would you figure that out?
>> We're actually not your parents.
I'm I'm sure they're my parents. Um,
yeah, that's an interesting question.
>> And this is known as subjective age. And
you [clears throat] know, there's a
physical feeling. There's al also this
mental feeling. So, how do we assign
that? And actually, after the age of 40,
most people feel about 20% younger than
their actual age. M and so I don't know
if it's deceptive but you know if you're
70 you know we just turned 50 and I'm
like wow that sounds
>> sounds old [laughter]
I feel about 40 seemed more recent but
yeah I can see some things but as you
get further along it's like gosh I'm in
this age group am I supposed to do this
now or behave like that but my parents
are different than I was and so I think
it's interesting it's also interesting
that that subjective age is a better
predictor of how long you'll live than
your biological age.
>> Fascinating.
>> Yeah. So, you know, you go to the doctor
and you're told like, "So, give me how
old are you?" Well, that all of a sudden
it's like, "Well, I guess I should
behave like a 75year-old or an
80-year-old." You're not going the
doctor's not going to say, "How old do
you feel?" And in some ways, people do
feel their age. I certainly feel my age
when I have an injury or when I'm like,
I'm tired or why am I getting I'm at 5
in the morning now and I can't get back
to sleep. But there's sometimes where
it's like, no, I I feel young. And I'm
not saying I'm running marathons, but I
know when I coach my son's baseball
team, I feel young. I mean, I feel old
in some ways, but I'm like, "Oh, I
remember how much fun this can be." And
it's nice to be around kids and, you
know, when I'm on a college campus, I'm
like, "This is nice to be around, you
know, younger people, and I'm learning a
lot from younger groups, and I'm seeing
how they're confused in different ways."
So,
>> I think there's a lot of age related
stereotypes that are sometimes accurate,
but we don't need to necessarily, you
know, subscribe to them at all times.
And in some ways you can have also and
this is partly the motivation for my
book kind of like mentors for aging. And
I think when I ask my class who are some
people that you really look up to who've
aged well or successful aging a lot of
it comes down to like a grandparent or a
parent or an aunt or an uncle. And that
that's really interesting because you
share like some genetic overlap with
them. But, you know, the stories, the
reasons are really impressive and not
that they're running marathons, but
like, oh, we have this recipe or every
holiday they do this or they're still
walking and doing this and sometimes
it's a public figure. Um, but having
these role models is really important
and often times it is apparent. So,
probably my favorite podcast that I
watched recently of yours was with your
father,
>> right? because you can see this dynamic
and you can see like gosh this this is
an older person and this is the younger
version but they're different in so many
ways and kind of you know some people
can retire and some people clearly can't
and and so I don't think there's any
secret to successful aging like you have
to do this or that but there's certainly
some people and I've seen it in my
family who can't retire or they have a
career shift you know I saw my dad go
from being a theoretical physics
professor to being an editor of a
literary arts journal and it's like such
a shift, but I think it revived him and
allowed him to kind of like you've gone
from being a professor to kind of more
public outreach and that keeps people
going and that can happen again at 60 or
70. Um, and so I hope you know there's
not this, you know, there's certainly
age discrimination. You're not going to
hire a 70-year-old to run your IT
department, but I think there are, you
know, things that older adults can and
want to do that will kind of lead to
this sense of purpose, which is really
important as you get older. Do you map
out your future? I mean, do you have u
like a three or a fiveyear plan? Um I
find that academics tend to operate on
the 3 to 5 year plan because grants
generally are somewhere between three
and five years. That's pretty much all
we can reasonably predict about where
we're going to go with our ideas. We
update as we discover things and um and
so on. But do you ever recall having a
plan currently? Do you plan like where
you're going? This is just really but as
a as a template for people to ask
themselves the same question. I don't
think I was ever sat down and said
listen
>> you want to focus on dayto-day but you
got to have a plan and the plan should
be put the horizon at three years or
five years. I just I sort of defaulted
to that because of academics.
>> Yeah.
>> Um and it's very hard for me to think
past five years.
>> No, I think people often will say in
business too the plan you have and I
think plans are important because they
can motivate you. And you know, when I
first got this job at UCLA, I was
thrilled to leave the cold weather of
Toronto and live on the West Coast. But
I also said, you know, if it doesn't
work out, let's see, in 3 to 5 years.
So, I don't think I had this specific
plan of I have to do this, but I also
had a plan like, hey, I'd love to write
a book that is accessible and can kind
of capture the the lessons I've learned.
And I didn't put a timeline on that, but
when I first met my wife, I told her I
was really interested in doing this. And
she was very encouraging. and you know
10 years later that book finally comes
out. So I think when you articulate
plans there's definitely research saying
that you can realize them and when other
people are thinking that's something you
can or should do I think it's it's
beneficial but yeah in the academic
world there there can be pressures to
get grants and publish but I think that
can also hamper some creative outputs. I
don't have a plan of like in 3 to 5
years I need to do this and this and
sure it'd be nice to get another grant
but maybe if you don't have a grant you
can have a little more freedom and
flexibility. Um, I'm really interested
in how, you know, it's a concern now
with AI, how people are subjected to a
lot of information and a lot of this can
be used for scams and fraud. [snorts]
>> And so I'm interested in how older
adults can be kind of, you know, aware
of these scams that can take, you know,
can be devastating and how we can make
kind of the world better for older
adults. And when I say older, it's like,
you know, we're not that far away from,
you know, why why can that self-driving
car be so appealing to a younger person
but not an older person. And if we can
make, you know, technology more
accessible to older people, it can
certainly help. And I think there's
simple ways to do it. Some it starts
with attitudes about, you know, how do I
engage with this? Will it work? Will I
break it? Whereas younger people will
just they get a new iPhone and they
don't there's no instruction manual.
They're just playing around with it. Um,
so I'm interested in that. I don't think
that has like a publication that I'm
going to get out of it and maybe there's
a grant, maybe there's consulting, but I
think it's having a broader kind of
approach might might be beneficial. So,
these are more abstract goals and
hopefully some of them can be realized,
but it's not as tied to like, you know,
when I was younger, yeah, I wanted to
get tenure at UCLA, right? I was happy
to have children and have a house where
we could be, you know, centrally located
without a long commute. So, I think
those were the practical goals. But I
think as I get older, I feel fortunate
that I've achieved, you know, some of
these goals that make my life more
comfortable. But there's still things
out there that I'm like, are we really
ever going to know how memory works? Um,
maybe, maybe not. But maybe we can make
things easier to use or now that we know
memory sort of works this way, maybe we
can make this technology geared to help
us in some meaningful way.
>> Well, a comment and then a question. My
comment is if anyone needs self-driving
cars, it's older folks.
>> Right.
>> Right. I mean if you look at the
accident data um look at the visual data
I mean there are people who are
>> I don't want to say legally blind but
their peripheral vision is really lousy
and they're driving and most of driving
is peripheral vision
>> um so you know for everybody's sake but
of course very young people with new
licenses they're all you know it's a
it's a it's not a a you know a linear
distribution of of accidents by age it's
a U-shaped function. But the the the
other is um nested in my question about
whether you set goals is the question of
whether setting goals helps us stay
alive. You know, I I covered before some
of the data on these super aers more of
the neuroscience anterior midsulate
cortex which seems to maintain or
increase volume as superagers
>> right
>> age and they hold on to their memory
etc. And what we understand of that
structure, it's involved in
pushing into friction, pushing oneself
to do something that's hard or not
desirable for oneself. It seems to come
up on more and more episodes of the
podcast. And I think I teach neuro
anatomy to medical students. When I
started teaching neuratomy, we didn't
know what the anterior midsulate cortex
does, but my colleague Joe Parvevesy
probed it with electrodes in humans. And
every single one they got stimulated.
They'd say, "Feels like a big storm is
coming. There's a challenge. I want to
lean into it. They would kind of come up
in their chair. They, you know, they're
not, I mean, they're in a halo. They're
getting surgery. So, but they would get
physically and mentally activated like,
I'm going to I'm going to I can take
this. I can do this. And it's very clear
that that's the brain structure that
grows. And so, I feel like going after a
goal, having goals, something to look
forward to. I wonder whether or not this
is the basic evolutionarily,
you know, hardwired circuitry for if
you're striving means you're trying to
get someplace. If you're trying to get
someplace, there's a concept of a
future. If there's a concept of a
future, well then you plan to be there
or you want to leave something behind
but
>> that it might activate literally this
kind of will to live and I don't want to
sound mystical here but kind of at a
cellular level
>> because when people don't have plans
then
>> there's really no I mean
>> you could just enjoy the smell of the
roses but that becomes a bit of a closed
loop. I don't know many people maybe
monks or something who are really tapped
into something that just that they just
want to live in the in the bliss of the
moment constantly. A lot of life is
about what comes next and trying to make
that thing happen.
>> I mean it's so interesting to look at
cellular and then anterior singulate and
then super aers and then sense of
purpose. If you look at all those
different levels and then
>> what we look at in a western culture too
is very different than some cultures
that age much better than western
cultures and maybe there's lessons to be
learned there because you know a lot of
it is like you're saying goal setting
and motivation but the goal is not just
to live forever. It's to make the most
of these moments and have this sense of
purpose. And a lot of older adults do
want to have this connection to younger
people or connection to a hobby or an
interest. And it's not as professionally
driven as it is in kind of midlife. And
I think the super ages is really
interesting because you know I' I've
read about that and I've seen this and I
these are not people who said I want to
live forever and I'm going to you know
that that's not their goal. And a lot of
them are not people who are like I went
to the gym four times a week. they
they've built into their, you know, it's
the same with blue zones. It's built
into their daily life of they eat well
because that's the food that, you know,
they enjoy and that they can find. They
exercise not from going to the gym, but
from having to walk uphill or on uneven
surfaces. So, I think I don't want to
say it's an American focus on goals and
motivation and biohacking and longevity,
but if you can build this into your
daily life, it's so much easier, right?
And then it just becomes, you know, I
saw my father bike to work every day. In
fact, he wouldn't even call it work
because he didn't want to make it think
like it was work. And I I don't know why
I I bike to work too in Los Angeles,
which is probably not the best thing to
do, but I've been able to set up my life
that I bike two miles uphill to work and
then two miles downhill. It's probably
sometimes it's the best time of my day.
Sometimes it's when the best ideas come
to me. I also have to be vigilant, you
know. [laughter]
>> Yeah. I just think the only thing you
know only met you today but I I feel
like uh uh something's coming out where
I'm thinking just I just
>> having lived in LA a while it's just
doors cars opening that's just the
simple
>> you know other cities too in Toronto
it's even worse you know um but I think
with the super aers it's also resilience
and these are people when you look at
their lives
>> sometimes you know they've had you know
easier lives and that can be beneficial
in some ways you know having wealth and
health but often there's a lot
resilience. You know, you've bounced
back. We saw this during CO. We at first
thought CO is going to be terrible for
older people, right? Because they're
going to be socially isolated. They
don't know how to use technology. And
[snorts] there's certainly reasons why
older adults could be more vulnerable.
But what we found, at least at the
psychological level, we did some of this
research, older adults were much more
resilient than younger adults. And I
think we've learned younger adults went
through a lot of difficult times being
socially isolated, being through
probably their first major kind of
situation where they can't behave the
way they're normally doing it. And the
older adults were the ones who are like,
"Eh, I've lived through X, Y, and Z,
wars, financial meltdowns, you know,
changes in family structure, deaths of
close people." And older adults seem to
show a lot more resilience here. And um
you know when I've interviewed people
for for this book it's sometimes the
most interesting people you know lived
through the Holocaust who are like I
appreciate every day you know I I think
the best advice I got from one person
was like when you're going up or
downstairs think I'm going up or
downstairs. They're very present right?
They know if I'm mind wandering or doing
something else something can happen. So
maybe I shouldn't be mind wandering on
my bike ride. I should be like that's my
>> but you're considerably younger and
clearly very me mentally uh aware to be
able to to use that time of a friend. He
was actually a guest on this podcast.
His name is Ryan Suave. He's a a trauma
therapist. He also treats addiction and
a number of people.
>> He said occasionally he'll get a a
patient who uh was suicidal or tried to
attempt suicide
>> um or you know or who attempted suicide,
excuse me. uh because of a breakup like
in high school or in uh in their 20s.
And you know, he said at first when when
he would get these people coming through
his clinic, he would think like, listen,
you want to sit this person down and
just say, look, like you're you got your
whole life ahead of you that you're
going to have other opportunities. There
are other fish in the sea. But he
quickly came to realize that to these
what you know by all arguments are still
kind of like kids, young adults. um to
them it it feels like a loss of the
entire future because they haven't had
that future [clears throat] yet. And
when he started approaching it through
that lens, he was able to be more
effective clinically
>> to just really acknowledge like yeah it
really feels like the whole world is
coming to an end.
>> They just don't have the perspective of
having had some relationship challenges
and
>> found someone else and so it really
feels like their whole life is over.
>> Yeah.
>> And because their whole life is up to
that point. It's interesting to think,
you know, and I remember thinking like,
oh yeah, that makes total sense when you
say it. I mean, obviously not the
suicidality, you know, one hopes that
wouldn't be where people would go with a
breakup, but as we get older, yeah, we
we can integrate over, you know, oh,
I've been had my ups, I've had my downs,
you know, I'm still here, I'm hard to
kill, you know, as I sometimes tell
myself, I go, I've had some ups and
downs and
>> I'm taking, you know, some heat, I just
go, okay, well, I know one thing is I'm
I'm hard to kill.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, I'm not resilient. Exactly.
You go, "Okay, cool." Like, "What did I
learn? I'm just going to apply the same
principles here again." And you know,
and then 10 years later, you go, "I'm
still here."
>> Yeah. I mean, it's just too bad. You
have I mean, in some ways, you have to
go through those struggles to to to
realize that, oh, I'm still here. Or in
retrospect, it was bad, but now I'm on
to something else. And
>> or in some cases, it's the best parts of
life. This I don't understand. Maybe
this is a more memory uh disruption than
it is accurate [snorts]
experience, whatever that is, but I feel
like our emotional selves integrate in a
in the way that we compare like things
really really sucked at a moment, which
makes the moments afterwards that just
don't suck a little bit so much better.
Yeah,
>> there's some adaptation or habituation
or whatever and then you look back and
you go like things are so good because
things don't completely suck which is a
very different perspective than I need
things to be so you know I need a bunch
of stuff it's maybe it's just the
absence of suck and you can really savor
that. No, I think there's there's a
memory component to that as well. And
you know, some people have studied this
looking at what's called the positivity
bias. That as you get older, you're more
likely to focus on positive things,
positive information, positive events,
but when you're younger, you're more
likely to focus on negative things. And
that might be for survival. Um, it might
not benefit your mental health, but as
you say, you know, these are big events
that happen when you're 20, 25, and
you're like, "This is horrible. How am I
ever going to get through this?" Well,
people do. Look at all these 70, 80 year
olds who've, you know, gone through
breakups and horrible things that have
happened.
>> Financial losses. You hear about people
in the tech and business world, they're
like went from so high to so low and
then back again and you just go, "Oh my
most people would just be devastated and
they're like, well, this is the rhythm."
>> Yeah. And and it's tough, but I think as
we get older, you know, we might focus
more on the positive things to enhance
our mood. And maybe that's what leads to
this kind of uptick in happiness as we
get older. It's not just rosecolored
glasses, but it's also saying, you know,
I'm going to focus on the things that
are positive or be around the people
that make me feel good. I've also heard
a lot of older adults will say, you
know, as I get older, I just don't have
time for that anymore. You know, I don't
want to focus on the negative things or
talking to people who bring me down.
[gasps]
>> But when we're young, you know, we're
all around different people and, you
know, might complain about things and
maybe that's beneficial. So, you can see
the bad things and rise above that. But
again, it's interesting to see these
nonlinear changes that you know and I I
think there is definitely a memory
component and come getting back to that.
Why do older adults tell the same story
several times? Well, you know, sometimes
it's a negative story like I had to walk
this far to school, but it usually has a
positive spin to it. And so maybe we do
this is because we have this positivity
bias or we want to relay this positive
information kind of to wash out some of
the negative things that probably
happened. you know, some of the happier
older adults I spent time with in South
Florida lived through some of the the
worst times in in Eastern Europe, let's
say. And I'm like, how how is this
possible? And it's, you know, their
brain changes in ways that might make
them look like they're not as sharp as
they used to be, but they're telling
jokes. They're less inhibited. I learned
some of the the dirtiest jokes from
these individuals, and I think that
these people are really interesting to
talk to. And you know, I I love teaching
at UCLA and being around students, but
it's very different than talking to
older adults. And every once in a while,
we have this senior scholars program
that, you know, allows older adults to
take these undergraduate classes. And to
me, that's probably the most enriching
thing. I teach a class on the psychology
of aging. And here in the classroom,
there's four older adults. I mean, this
is a, you know, a case study. And this
year, several of them were therapists.
So, I'm like, this is, you know, they
had a lot of information to share, but
they're even told in the part of it is
that they're not supposed to ask
questions.
>> And I thought that's so strange. And in
my class, I want them, you know, I
assume if they're in astronomy or art
history, they could be asking tons of
questions, but I think this is such a
great way to have this kind of
intergenerational component. And a lot
of the students, you know, I tell the
students, I have two tests, but I don't
have a final exam. And I tell them, the
final exam is the test of life. I know
it sounds a little, you know, kind of
corny or hokey, but I'm like, everything
you learned about aging, you're
hopefully going to use in the future.
Either your parents might not be
relevant when you're 20, you're not
thinking about it. But it was the older
adults in the class that they often said
were, you know, I like to think I'm a
good professor, but they learn the most
from these older adults. Um, and so I
think having more of this
intergenerational interaction,
uh, is really important. And in
different cultures, that's built into
the community. In the Western culture,
not so much. I mean some people grow up
with their grandparents in the same
household. Um I didn't but the at times
I did have with my grandparents were
very informative and you know you share
genetic overlap with these individuals
yet they also have wisdom and knowledge.
Some it is dated but I think that can be
very beneficial being around older
adults. I'd like to take a quick break
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There's a really cool course at Stanford
Medical School that I sat in on years
ago about neural regeneration, which was
a topic of study for my lab for a while.
And they had a young person uh that
year. It was a guy in his 20s who had a
spinal cord injury. Came in, talked
about his spinal cord injury, talked
about what life was like for him before
and after, how he's thinking about
things. And then on a separate lecture
there was a older individual who had
also had a spinal cord injury and it was
striking to see the divergence in
attitude. You could look at this as
tragic or redeeming depending on how you
how you think about these things. But um
the older gentleman was saying that, you
know, he had this injury. He knows he's
never going to walk again, but he's
like, you know, he's lived a lot of life
and he's done a lot of things and you
know, and here he is. And so he's going
to focus on what he can do. He's focused
on what he can do.
And he actually noted, this was some
years ago, that he wasn't that much
worse off compared to his peers, unless
he let himself become a pessimist.
>> So if he was an optimist, then he
actually was still doing better than a
lot of his um walking able peers.
>> Whereas a younger gentleman was talking
about how, you know, there's just so
many things in the in the horizon that
he's going to that he hasn't done that
he really wanted to do that he doesn't
have access to, which is really
heartbreaking to hear. It was a very
honest discussion and this was of course
mainly focused on the biology and
limitations of biology to try and
overcome regeneration. But they brought
these um people in because really wanted
to highlight the differences in terms of
patient need and um
>> I thought it it you know this comes to
mind now in in this conversation like I
think if you acrew enough experiences
good and bad it does we kind of bucket
list life. We're like, "Okay, you know,
>> I I did this and I did that and maybe I
would have liked more of that, but I
can't do that anymore." And, you know, I
definitely didn't want more of that.
And, you know, we can kind of bucket
list life.
>> And I never had a bucket list growing
up. It would have been very useful like
sit down and at any age I guess and just
write out what are the things you
absolutely don't want to uh leave this
life not having done and and try and
make those happen because god forbid if
you have one of these injuries or you
stroke out and die or have a heart
attack not to sound morbid but then you
know you you've done the things and I
think that's the real tragedy of when
people are limited early on and I don't
know what became of the younger guy
hopefully he um figured it out because I
know a lot of people because of that
work that um are blind or paralyzed um
who live very enriched lives with
families and all that but it's curious
it's like uh I didn't think we'd get to
like the meaning of life here purpose
purpose in life but we should probably
plan and and carry out on those plans
and not just live by default
>> wait till we're older and then try and
figure out how we can go longer
>> with a little less less pain um and a
few uh more memories. I mean it's an
interesting case study when you compare
those two individuals and then say you
know what what do you want to get out of
life and it's kind of a big picture
question and but a lot of older adults
will say they have pretty good life
satisfaction you know happiness life
satisfaction could be similar and
related and it again it's the midlife
people who seem to be lacking
>> and I don't know if we're at that stage
but I feel like maybe I'm on the uptick
but I don't I don't know if I have a
bucket list but I certainly would like
to do more things like hey I really
enjoyed that trip to Sedona Arizona I'd
like to do that again. Sedona is
amazing. I just went for the first time.
>> Yeah. My girlfriend and I went out there
and we were like, "This place is
awesome. It's so beautiful. The air
feels so good. The light is amazing."
>> And I definitely go back. My son and I
climbed up, you know, part rocks that
we, you know,
>> Oh, you're a climber.
>> Wow. I'm not a climber. I've climbed
then, but we, you know, we went there 5
years ago when he was too young to do
that. He wanted to go back and I was
like, "These are the sorts of moments I
really enjoy." And it doesn't
necessarily have to be Sedona. You can
go up the coast here in California and
get these. So, I feel like those are the
moments that I'm like I'm not sure
whether it has to be in Costa Rica or
Matador Beach, but I feel like those are
the moments that I I really enjoy. Um,
you know, before it was like, yeah, I
want to fly an airplane. That would be
really cool.
>> But I have friends who fly airplanes and
I'm like, you know, I have a family now.
I don't need to fly an airplane anymore.
>> I think we look at these maybe I
shouldn't be riding my bike either in
LA. But I think we start to look at like
what really, you know, captures you and
matters. And some of it are like even
some simple hobbies like we were talking
about drawing earlier. Something I
wouldn't have time for when I was 20 or
30. Like I could be spending that time
programming a computer or writing
something. And now that those are very
kind of important moments and times um
that I enjoy. So yeah, having a sense of
purpose I think sharing information. A
lot of older adults will say it's really
nice to be a mentor. They don't want to
go back and go through the grunt work of
their job, but they'd love to share
experiences or be an educator. And you
see big benefits for older adults who
volunteer. Um, again, it's
correlational, but older adults who are
engaged in some sort of, um, kind of
generativity, like influencing the next
generation, uh, feel very connected and
and useful. And that's that's something
some old adults will say is like, you
know, I'm retired, but I still feel like
I'm useful. And I think, you know,
certainly how can we, you know, that'll
be us, God willing, one day that we'll
be older and be like, well, what are we
supposed to do now?
>> Maybe that's what grandkids are about
>> perhaps. Yeah.
>> Really useful to almost everyone in a
family has some unique skill set they
can contribute. Like like my stepdad is
>> he's a really impressive carpenter and
with tools and he built my niece's
dollous when she was younger. Like if
there's something to fix like he's the
man,
>> you know, or something to build. his
tool shed is in insane. It's incredible.
>> I think grandchildren, I mean, it's
family. People will often say when
they're, you know, close to their end of
life, what were the most important
things? And they'll say, you know,
family rituals. So there's Thanksgiving
or Passover, when everyone got together
and got to doing something. And so those
are kind of some very important
memories. And I think if you realize you
can also influence the next generation
in in a meaningful way. I think some
research, again it's correlational,
shows that people who spend, you know, 5
hours a week with their grandchildren
have improved memory. So that seems we
don't know if it's causal, but it's
interesting that those who spend more
than 20 hours a week don't show this
benefit. In fact, might show the
opposite.
>> They're exhausted.
>> They're exhausted or they're in an
unfortunate situation where they're
forced into child care. There's a single
parent or someone's incarcerated. So
it's interesting to get that insight
that yes being around younger people or
doing some meaningful interaction
whether it's mentoring whether it's
grandchildren can be can be and I think
it's birectional you know that the
children learn from it. I had I didn't
spend a lot of time with my grandparents
but I have very vivid memories of one
grandfather showing me how you can clean
a penny in Coca-Cola. You know that's
like science and it was like that's
crazy. Should I be drinking this? You
know there's all sorts of questions I
had. Um and and so I think that sort of
you know interaction can be very useful
for you know the grandparent and the
grandchild. So
>> I think about what really enriches one's
life. Um in addition to deliberately
trying to build memories you know the
the decision to not fly planes and but
maybe to get out to Sedona or Matador or
Big Su or something like that. Yose I'm
putting a strong vote for Yusede. You
want to have an amazing experience in
life. It's very low cost. If you can get
yourself to Yoseite, drive up to the
high country and hike Clouds Rest. It's
the
>> It's the best thing you'll ever do.
>> That's on my bucket list.
>> But get there early because you'll be
coming down in the dark if you don't.
And bring water because there's no water
along the way.
>> Amazing place. I'm putting a big plug
for national parks cuz I love Yusede.
The discussion you had with Wooden, you
said uh the two takeaways that he um
offered were love and balance. and then
ironically he got harmed and eventually
died from a fall because his pride got
in the way. Um, was there anything else
in that conversation that didn't get
into your book or that um it's just
maybe was more subtle that you think
about? If not, no big deal.
>> I mean, first of all, it wasn't the fall
that led to his death. It was, you know,
he had a fall. He didn't press his leg.
He he was resilient. he bounced back and
um you know eventually you know I think
nearly 99 is when he passed away so
several years after the fall. That was
such an inspiring interview and I
remember when I first got my job at UCLA
you know growing up at Canada I'll admit
the reason I knew UCLA was the
basketball team, the football team. I
remember watching the Rose Bowl and
>> Okay, many people throughout the world
think that UCLA is a basketball team.
That's they I'm not sure that they know
that. Um,
>> and they've had their ups and downs.
>> There's a school there, right?
>> But I also thought, gosh, that place
sure looks nice in the winter.
>> And um, and so I it was I was thankful
to be connected to Coach Wooden who
actually used to lecture in a in a
leadership class once a year and um, he
was very interested in, you know,
serving as a coach but also as a
teacher. So I think this sort of
generativity
um you know he was so kind and
thoughtful and then you come into his
you know it's a two-bedroom condo in
Inino this is not how a famous
basketball coach would live now and he
had no problem with that
>> he wasn't interested in wealth or
anything like that
>> I think partly he didn't have and led a
very fulfilling life in the absence of
that whereas now you see in professional
sports and all you know wealth can lead
to all sorts of problems but um so I was
impressed with that and just all the,
you know, the pride he had and he, you
know, sharing the the love and balance
quote I thought was was helpful and I
tried to distill it in in the book to
capture not just what Wooden said but
others that what I call the ABCs of
successful aging. It's a kind of an
easier way to and a is is an attitude
having a positive attitude about what
can happen as you get older. And
actually, more recent research shows
that those who have a positive attitude
live longer, they're less likely to
develop dementia. And so, it's probably
maybe less stress, better behavior, but
more recent research shows that if you
have a more negative attitude overall of
what can happen as you get older, but a
more positive attitude about what you
can do, your own personal kind of agency
over the process that leads to kind of
longer life.
>> That's that friction again.
>> It's the friction. It's the balance
>> about that. You don't want it things too
easy. You don't want them too hard like
landscape too easy or too hard. It's it,
>> you know, again and again, I've just
been tracking during our conversation.
It's the the delta. It's the difference
between where you're at versus where
you'd like to be and and
>> not letting that turn you into a cynic
or a kerogen, but like but feeling that
friction. You can't we can't just like
kick our feet up and Yeah.
>> Uh all the time,
>> right? And I think if you notice, look,
bad things can happen as you get older,
but I'm going to have to rise above it
by doing these things. That's that's the
adapt component. So, you know,
attitudes, but also adapting because a
lot of you're not going to have an easy
time. And a lot of the older adults I've
talked to said, you know, had to adapt
to changes, whether it's physical,
whether it's mental. Um, so I think, you
know, to make call a adapt and also
attitude is very psychological. And then
b is balance, which is what we've talked
about already. You know, I don't think
it's the these super aes are not
extremists. They're not like running
marathons and eating, you know, only
blueberries. Um, it's usually something
like, yeah, I just do this or that and
it works out.
>> That suggests some sort of genetic
component.
>> I think there is a genetic component,
but I also think it's not the extreme.
Like, it's not like you need four cups
of coffee a day to, you know, prevent
dementia. It's probably having some
level of balance and some, you know,
genetic component. But um and then C is
often overlooked as a you know from a
psychological standpoint is connection
and that's also what Wooden was
emphasizing you know be around the
people you love do the things you love.
Um social connection I think we learned
during co all of a sudden people are
like oh my gosh I can't be around people
or I can see them on Zoom but it's
different all of a sudden it hits home
that um social connection is important.
Now, it's different for different
people, you know, how they want to
engage in it. But I think that's often
lost sadly because of technology. You
know, you can have tons of Facebook
friends, but how many friends could you
call up once a week to ask how their day
is or their week is gone is probably
limited. And as we get older, our social
circle tends to shrink. Uh people move
away, people pass away. But some
research shows the quality of those
fewer relationships can actually be
improved. And I think that's again an
interesting kind of nonlinear change
that you know when we're young we know
lots of people and we're interacting a
lot in a social way but as we get older
it's those more meaningful kind of
relationships that are important.
>> Yeah. The connection piece comes up
again and again. And I think it, you
know, as we talk about all this, like it
must be kind of daunting for people in
their 20s and 30s now because there's
like all this stuff that you can do to
make yourself better that frankly what
we weren't aware of back when. It's
>> like, oh, I like running, so I ran. Want
to get stronger, so I lifted weights. I
wanted to
>> PhD in neuroscience, so I did it. Like I
just sort of followed my interest. there
wasn't this idea that you could like
fundamentally transform how long you
were going to live or how great you were
going to feel at a given age. But so I
kind of wonder if it's both good and
bad. Um I don't want to undercut the
idea that we can um strive for those
things, but I also don't want to promote
the idea that that we should all be
thinking about what it's going to be
like when we're 70. I mean, the the unit
of life being the day, I think, is um
true in the circadian sense. Our biology
resets every 24 hours.
>> Having recently um pulled the first
allnighter in a while to finish some
book edits. Last minute little nip tuck
stuff with
>> with my producer and friend Rob. We
legitimately pushed through. It was like
it's been like okay we'll go to two and
then at two I was like I get then we're
like looks like we're going through and
been a while. It was fun to just be able
you know as much as I talk about the
benefits of sleep.
>> Yeah.
>> Um it's like that was cool. Like haven't
done that in a while still got it. It
hurt the next day. You get a nap. Next
day you sleep a little longer. Like, you
know, I gonna did I shorten my life? I
don't know. I feel like I got I'll
remember that.
>> You'll remember and you're contributing
to something that, you know, you think
is important. You know, this is a book.
This is something that you want to make
sure it's accurate and, you know,
thoughtful. And, you know, I think when
you work hard at something, it does make
you feel good. You're probably getting a
lot of,
>> you know, neurotransmitter reward
mechanism kicking in.
>> Yeah, it was so much fun. This is why I
always say, you know, the occasional
like late night out or all nighter, as
long as it's for the right reasons, you
know, I wish that for people.
Occasional.
>> Yeah.
>> As you can tell, I'm I'm really
intrigued by this idea that there's
something about pushing ourselves.
And as Wooden pointed out, there's also
something about coming off the gas,
being able to lean back and forth into
those things. Like life is an
oscillation. It's a circadian
oscillation. And then it's like this
push push push and then being able to
come off the gas. And
>> it's an art. It's not a It's not a
science. There's science there, but it's
it's not trivial like um and it actually
raises this question uh for me. You
know,
>> you're an interesting guy. You know, you
you're young in my opinion, but I'm 50
also. So, you study memory, but you seem
to have a genuine interest in care for
the older generation. Like, how are we
going to take care of them in the AI
age? How are we going to take care of
them? Um is that something that's always
been intrinsic to you?
I I don't want this to sound glib, but
you know, but like what's the obsession
with older folks? It's cool. It's very
nurturing, but it's not typical. You
know, most people aren't thinking about
the older generation. It's natural for
us as a species to think about the
younger generation, right? We just have
a
>> what I think is a healthy reflex to like
how can we make things better for kids
that are coming up, young people, make
it better.
>> Yeah.
>> But you you're unique in this way. you
know, you study memory in the age cohort
that uh has arguably some of the worst
memory.
>> I think it's maybe growing up around a
lot of older adults. Again, you know, I
grew up in Canada partly, but also in
Florida and I was around a lot of very
interesting older people, you know, kind
of in their prime of their retirement
life, uh, who'd spend a lot of time with
me and, you know, I have aging parents.
I've seen that. So I I don't know if
it's also like a respect for older
adults, but it's also I mean maybe it's
I don't want to say egocentric, but in a
good way if we're lucky we're going to
be there one day.
>> So you're making the discoveries that
you will yourself benefit from.
>> I hope so. I hope so. And I think it's
an investment. You know, we invest a lot
in our children and it's, you know,
incredibly important and to be nurturing
parents and, you know, have government
that can help, you know, with education.
But I think we look the other way once
people are well you're on social
security or you're retired and you know
and I think culturally there's you know
other cultures that treat older adults
with more respect. Um and so I don't
know what the reason is and you know I
teach a class on aging at UCLA. It's a
popular class but it's not as popular as
the class on relationships or you
[laughter] know things that I think
younger people would be interested in.
But often times after students take it,
they say, you know, I never thought I'd
be interested in aging, but I'm
actually, you know, now that I think
about it, you know, it's it's really
interesting to see how my parents age.
And I'm like, well, you know, give
yourself 30 or 40 years and I hope
you'll remember something from this
class. And I think maybe that's my early
exposure made me think this is really
kind of an interesting thing that
happens. And I remember, you know, with
my grandparents, they would forget, you
know, my get my name confused with my
brother's name, but they could remember
the price of bananas, right? So, how are
they remembering this very detailed
information versus forgetting things
that are presumably important? And I
think it comes down to focus. It comes
down to, you know, the era you grew up
in. And so, I don't see it as very
different than, you know, older adults
are not different than younger adults in
that they're like, that's the old and
this is the new, but it's this
progressive change. And in some ways, I
can see in my own children, I think,
what are they going to be like when
they're 80? What habits are going to
stay with them and what things might
change? And I think in some ways,
there's a lot of things that you could
see it kind of as a seed that just gets
more pronounced as we get older, but
also that we're better at, you know,
regulating emotions and doing things
that when we're young, we're not so good
at. And we often think like, how can we
make older people, you know, better by
making them look younger? And in fact, I
sometimes think, gosh, how could we
instill some of that? Not just the
wisdom, but make younger people feel
like older people in some ways, kind of
from a psychological standpoint, you
know, better at regulating emotions,
less likely to take risks.
>> You know, it's the whole like if you
know, if I know knew then what I know
now. I It's why it's interesting that
Wooden said that the two most important
uh words in life are love and balance. I
have a friend who's a psychologist and
uh he said you know the two most
dangerous words in the English language
are if and only and especially when
they're next to each other and it's
interesting to watch my mind sometimes
go like if only this or if only that.
It's like
>> we can default there and it's
>> it's dreadfully um useless
>> and and maybe even destructive.
>> Um so I
>> I encourage myself to you know watch out
for the if only thinking. It's it's it's
maybe even deadly.
>> You know, we run a lot of simulations in
our brain like what if I did this or
what if I didn't do that or what if I
met this person or what if I took this
job? And I think at some point when
you're young, maybe that's helpful like
trying to figure out what would work out
best. But as you're older, it's like,
well, these things have happened and
I've learned from them. Um, and yeah, I
think it's, you know, really interesting
to think of that as what if, what if
this happened? and you can get yourself
into a lot of trouble thinking what if
that happens and what if you know the
world can be an incredibly dreary place
>> um when you when you think of it that
way but it's also amazing to see and
maybe that's why I'm interested in older
adults it's like look these people 70 80
90
>> I'm not just looking at the 90-year-olds
who are doing incredible things I'm
looking at the 90-year-olds who are you
perhaps at peace with themselves you
know feel comfortable
um talking about things that they want
to talk about I you know I enjoyed your
father's podcast partly because I'm
like, here's a guy who's not afraid of
saying some things and appreciate that.
Maybe maybe it's not always, you know,
what people would expect.
>> He's he has an irreverence to him. I
mean, he's very um polite and uh
believes in etiquette, but um he doesn't
let people constrain him.
>> Yeah. And you know, I I just found that,
you know, there a lot of these podcasts
have a lot of science in them, but he
had a lot of you know, things that made
me think, gosh, that's interesting.
Could we test that? Is that really how
you know you curiosity one of our more
recent studies has shown that as we get
older you know memory does decline in in
many ways but um older adults can
remember prices let's say that makes
sense so you know the bananas being you
know $2.99 but as soon as we say bananas
are $1849
that just doesn't make sense and older
adults are quickly forget that and
that's something we were talking about
that the benefit of forgetting things
that just don't fit your schemas that
just don't make sense where younger
adults um you know a lot of
undergraduates will be like you know I
highlighted 80% of the textbook why did
I get a C on the exam it's this
inability to kind of selectively focus
on what's important and I' I've seen
that even in myself like you know when I
was younger I'd be taking notes on
everything but by your fourth year you
realize you know what let me sit back
and look for the overarching themes that
connect things and that's almost how I
did well in psychology is I'm like
>> okay some of these findings make sense
and so I can remember it that way. But
some of them are counterintuitive and a
lot of this like people aren't always
rational. This Conoran and Tverki, you
know, all these biases people have.
Well, that's fascinating. So, I just
remember it that way. The things that
made sense and the things that didn't
make sense. And that's kind of how you
can organize things. And I think that
that can be kind of a useful principle
as you get older is knowing what to
overlook and kind of knowing what to
focus on. And so, you know, older
adults, even though they'll say, "My
memor is not as sharp as it used to be."
As long as you can remember the things
that are kind of critical, um, that's
what's important. And so, in this study
on curiosity, we found that older adults
tend to remember the things that they're
most curious about, but they're also
really good at forgetting the things
that they just didn't care about in the
first place.
>> Sounds great.
>> Yeah.
>> Honestly, it sounds great, right?
>> Yeah. I can't wait. Right. because um I
want to learn more about certain things,
remember certain people in certain
things, but there's a lot of stuff that
rolls through my phone or through my
email. Yeah,
>> luckily not through my daily experience,
but that I I don't want to think about
that stuff.
>> And it captures your attention and all
of a sudden you're like, where did the
last 10 minutes go? I've been reading
about this and now I'm remembering this
useless thing.
>> Yeah.
>> Um so I think if you can prune these
things and as you get older maybe you
realize I've even realized, gosh, I
forget this. I need to focus more. It's
not just conscious focus, but it's like
I, you know, I'm interested in this.
Let's put more resources and time and
energy into that. It takes me longer to
learn a piano piece than, you know, my
daughter.
>> You play piano.
>> I try, but you know, I see my daughter
like picking these things up so quickly.
And I'm like, I know I'm not going to be
like that, but I can be more selective
about what I try and learn, what's in my
wheelhouse, and what's just beyond it.
>> Developmental plasticity is amazing,
right? I don't know how old she is, but
I know she's younger than you. So,
>> yeah, she's young. I've, you know, two
daughters and a son and I see them all
excelling. Like my older daughter is
like, wow, her cognitive skills are
probably beyond mine in terms of speed
of processing. She might even be a
better driver than I am. Um, you know,
she's good at planning things. My
daughter playing piano, it's like, gosh,
if I could have those skills now, how I
would practice more. My son will hurt
himself in baseball and I'm like, he's
out for three weeks. Three days later,
he's pitching again. Right? So, those
are things where it's like, yes, aging
sucks in some ways. I'll be upfront
about it. But I think when you
appreciate those things as you get 40,
50, 60, it's like, yeah, that's, you
know, it's hard to recover from
injuries. It takes you maybe longer to
learn something. But the things you
really do care about, you can use all
this kind of knowledge and wisdom and
metacognition to focus on kind of what
matters the most. So it's almost as if
as we are able to do less with less pain
or just do less attitude starts to
become more and more important. That's
what I'm hearing but I don't want to
lead the witness as
>> yeah I think that's definitely the
perspective and you know this is built
on some developmental theories of social
you know social learning but also
selective optimization with
compensation. you know that as you get
older maybe you're not going to be doing
all these things and scuba diving and
hiking but you'll be like you know that
one hike I really enjoy I want to be
able to do it once a week
>> um [snorts] and so you're still doing
the things you like but you're not doing
kind of the wide range of them and
another related theory is you know um
socio emotional selectivity theory Laura
Karstensson at Stanford another
perspective saying that as we get older
our kind of our our mindset shifts that
we don't have as much time to live so we
want to focus on the things that are
important. Whereas when you're young,
it's very abstract to say save for
retirement or what are you going to do
when you're 60? It's like that what am I
going to do next week? Right? But her
work has shown that when you give people
different time perspectives, they make
different choices. So if you
unfortunately tell someone who's younger
that they only have 5 to 10 years left
to live, they're going to make choices
very much like older adults too.
>> [snorts]
>> So, I don't know if it's conscious that
we're thinking these things, but you
know, as you get older, maybe you
realize, I want to focus on the things
that matter the most. Maybe I won't
worry so much about the things that I
used to worry about all the time. Um,
and that can be kind of a healthy way to
approach life. This might sound a little
uh mystical, but I've always wondered if
barring accident or injury whether
people have some unconscious knowledge
about how long they're going to live. Um
you I grew up near Steve Jobs. He used
to come into the skateboard shop that I
worked to get rollerblade wheels and
things like that. And he was around. He
didn't have security. He'd walk when I
was a posttock. You'd still see him
walking through downtown Palto in the
evenings. My dad and I would walk about
once a week. We'd take a walk together
and we'd see Steve. He was, you know,
passed away I think in 2015 or something
like that. Does that sound about right?
In any case, he he was thinning out
then. He was going through his various
treatments. But
>> you know, if you listen to his biography
with Walter Isacson, um written by
Walter Isacson, it I mean it was very
clear that he had a mission, he was on
it, that life was you had to maximize on
your life, that you couldn't compromise.
And okay, that led to some kind of high
friction personality traits in him, too.
But
>> I don't think anyone would argue uh that
he didn't do something super impressive
in what he built. It transformed the
world. I mean, most everyone listening
to this has an Apple product in their
vicinity as I say this, right?
>> And it almost seemed like he had some
deeper knowledge. He wasn't going to
live that long. And when I think about
like the 27 club of you know amazing
artists dying at 27 and just like it's
almost like there's a life energy that's
either packed into a shorter period of
time, a medium amount of time or a
longer time. Now, of course, accidents,
injuries, and things can happen um to
but I wonder like if we have a sense
based on our parents, our grandparents,
our life notion of like I'm going to be
around a while
>> or because it really seemed to benefit
him to have this attitude about life
like you get one life.
>> You have to live it on your terms.
>> Um you don't want to compromise your
soul and your your your heart and you
just go for it. Mhm.
>> And then there are these people that
sort of live life as if it's going to go
on forever.
>> And for them it seems to go on a long
time and it seems to be kind of a lower
slower arc. I'm not saying one is better
than the other, right? It's impossible
to compare
>> uh except
>> you know to compare that the the
objectively just say okay one live
shorter pack more in one live longer
maybe didn't have as intense a life. Do
you think there there could be something
in our biology that we have some
awareness based on our genetic
fingerprint that you know I probably got
about
if I think about my dad and mom they're
doing well in their 80s but you know I
probably have about 90 100 years if I
take care of myself so I'm going to live
that way. Yeah, it's a interesting
conjecture and in some ways we probably
do know like our lifespan is about this
but you're right accidents can happen,
things can happen and I've seen you know
from my own family you know I can take
the average age of my mother and father
and sadly my mother passed away when she
was young my father's still alive so I
think I have this perspective of life
can be short and when people are like
I'm 50 but I haven't done this this and
this part of me is like I'm 50 and I've
made it this far I'm pretty happy with
things but of course you know, your
perspective could be different. And I
don't know, in the case of these, you
know, high performing individuals, maybe
they lead every day, like it could be
their last, and they want to stay up all
night and transform the world. I think a
lot of the super aes
>> more chill.
>> They're more chill, but maybe it's not
intentional. It's like, I just don't
want to, you know, ruin tomorrow by not
sleeping a lot tonight. Um so you know a
lot of people will say what's the secret
to successful aging and um I think the
secret is not to look for one thing
probably you know we've talked a lot
about you know exercise sleep and a lot
of people say it's moderation like it
doesn't mean like don't drink coffee or
drink seven cups a day it's like if you
want a cup of coffee have one but you
can realize maybe you don't want it
every day get you know eight hours of
sleep well not every night clearly
pulling an all nighter might have been a
benefit for you and even a good
investment and
>> do it again for a very long time.
>> But then you've probably learned from
that. You're like, I don't want to be
editing books late at night once a week,
right? But once every few years,
especially if it might pay off, that's
that's part of the, you know, the deal
I've made with myself. So
>> the friendship I'm realizing as you say
this, the fact that someone else was
there
>> is what kept me out of like, you know,
swearing like this sucks or what. It's
it's fun. It reminds me being in
graduate school. We used to run
physiology experiments all night or
imaging experiments all night. And you
get pretty loopy somewhere between 3 and
5 a.m. and you just acknowledge like,
"Oh, here we go again." Like like mild
psychosis cuz you are a little bit
psychotic and in a sleep-d deprived
state.
>> You make it through and you're like,
"Hey, we did that. That was that was
fun."
>> Maybe that's why people say college is
the best time because you're going
through a lot of things like that,
staying up late, working hard,
struggling through this, trying to
figure out that, but there's a social
component. You're doing it with other
people. And you know, even when I think
like the Steve Jobs thing or even when I
talk to older adults, they're like, I
like this part of my work life when it
was a challenge and we had to travel
here and do that. It was exciting. They
wouldn't say it was relaxing and it's
not something they want to revisit. And
it's interesting if you ask people,
"What age would you want to go back to?"
Not a lot of people will say 20 or 15.
It's usually kind of closer to midlife,
which is interesting cuz maybe
everything's kind of firing on all
cylinders then. Your cognition's still
pretty good. your family's still around,
you know, you have your job, you're
reinforced by a lot of things, but it's
not going back to this age, you know,
when you're like 20, 25.
>> Any [snorts] experiments that your
laboratory is doing now that you can
even just tell us about the design of
the experiment, if not the results?
>> Yeah. Well, we're we're we've done some
work on curiosity and I think that's
something that from a lifespan
perspective is interesting. We've been
measuring different types of curiosity.
One is known as state curiosity and one
is known as trait curiosity
>> and trait curiosity is just in general
are you a curious person do you you know
kind of get into things and have trouble
if you don't learn the answer which I
think a lot of you know people can have
but as you get older that tends to
decline with age which I thought was
kind of perplexing because I you know a
lot of curious people but we found that
levels of state curiosity when I give
you some interesting bit of information
but I don't give you the answer if it's
something you care about that actually
increases with age your level of
curiosity and learning.
>> We think this is interesting because it
probably guides our memory as we get
older. You know, we're going to remember
the things we care about and if you're
curious especially so and there's
probably some neurochemical pathway that
is still engaged even though we know all
sorts of things kind of decline with
age. So that's one and we've been
testing it with trivia questions, you
know, things we have experimental
control over. But I think it has
implications for lifelong learning that
if you're really interested in hiking or
bird watching or skateboarding, that
might still percolate when you're 70 or
80, which I think is really interesting.
And and the other thing we're looking at
is kind of the flip side of the
curiosity, which could be a double-edged
sword, is that I mentioned scams and
fraud, right? That's like if it's almost
like opening Pandora's box, right?
>> [snorts]
>> As soon as someone calls you with an
offer that's too good to be true or
limited time or something, it's that
thing you always wanted and now it's at
this price or worse, you know, we
kidnapped your granddaughter and don't,
you know, you need to pay this amount of
money and they she doesn't want you to
call mom and dad and all of a sudden you
hear her voice on the line and she's
saying, "Please help me." All of a
sudden, you're wiring the money.
>> People are running those scams.
>> People are running and that's an old
one. That was when you know younger
people are posting things on Facebook
and all of a sudden their voice is
captured and now their voice is played
to a grandparent who's like oh my gosh I
need to help this person you know my
loved one and it's preying on you know
socio emotional selectivity theory that
we focus on family and feelings and
emotions and older adults get caught by
this and AI has just made this even
worse um because you're going to get
phone you could get a phone call from
Steve Jobs that sounds just like Steve
Jobs right now even though you know he's
not around and so we're looking at How
as we get older are we able to
distinguish between kind of this fake
information and what's real? And it's
not just older adults who are, you know,
prone to this. It's younger people too
who are, you know, in a rush, might not
be paying attention to something, more
likely to get identity theft. Whereas
older adults, they have more money, they
more to lose. And so I think that's
that's on the more practical side of
being able to identify how, you know,
scams and fraud target people. But
there's a psychological component, you
know, emotions again [snorts] that, you
know, might engage older adults more so,
whereas younger people are more
interested in, you know, oh, my loan is
going to be forgiven if I give some
information. Great. Um, so it's kind of
using psychological mechanisms um in a
in a very nefarious way. So, I'm
interested in how we can try and kind of
prevent that.
>> And I feel like there's a lot of amateur
psychologists out there who are engaged
in this this kind of form of fraud. Um,
so that's another area of of interest
and trying to design experiments but
also look at more practical
implications.
>> It's cool. You have a lot of care for
the older generation. You're a
protector.
>> That's really great. You know, we had a
lot of discussions on this podcast
about, you know, youth and um and and
everybody, you know, every age, but um I
don't recall a conversation with anyone
um much less a scientist who's
interested in uh protecting uh older
folks. Yeah, I know you thought about
and maybe you can tell us what this
wisdom thing is about, right? I mean,
it's like I feel like uh um I'm not
trying to be um facitious here when I
say, you know, there seems to be a kind
of transformation of of advice from just
advice to wisdom after somebody dies,
>> right? It's like when they're still
around, it sounds like advice and then
they die and it's like wisdom, you know?
And um I'm not trying to make light of
it, but it does seem like we look at
knowledge from people that have passed
away
>> um as different
>> like uh I haven't read much about
wouldn't like basketball, but I'm I like
>> um track enough that I read um you know
uh the book about Bowererman, the coach
up at Oregon, like the men of Oregon is
a really he was another one of these
amazing coaches that was much more of a
mentor and teacher. He made all his
runners get um jobs
>> outside of school while in school and
running for for this incredible track
team.
>> Yeah.
>> And he would place them in uh not always
manual labor jobs, but he made sure that
they understood that the town that they
were running in was much more than a
university and a you know, he was like
took the time to do this stuff, right?
And he was a hard-nosed guy, but you
know, so you you but I often wonder as I
read these things like, "Oh, when he
when he was alive, was was everyone
revering him?" Because as soon as you
die, you're like a thing,
>> right? [laughter]
It puts you in
>> the one advantage of dying, you know,
your your words move from uh advice to
wisdom. What is that?
>> I think Wooden got a lot of play for his
wisdom. He retired at an earlier age
than most people do. He didn't need to.
He didn't um I don't think he made as
much money as you know, coaches do now.
But I think you're right. It's
interesting how knowledge goes into
wisdom. And I think even when I was
thinking of like my own interest in in
wisdom and aging is, you know, I had an
older math teacher who also was my
basketball coach and I think he was
formative when I think of, you know, why
I'm and he was older and he said,
"Listen,
>> you're not going to be starting this
year if you don't put the time in to
your calculus class that you're putting
the time into basketball." [laughter]
And he was very clear about that. And I
was like, he said, "You have tremendous
potential in calculus." He didn't say
anything about basketball, but he's he's
kind of saying like you need to work
harder. The motivation is there. I've
had older rabbis who've given me advice,
you know, growing up that I, you know,
not even being religious then still
resonates with me. And so I think, you
know, even at the practical level, the
wisdom sometimes it's nice to hear it
from the horse's mouth. You can read
this cute little quote or something and
that that's reasonable. And then I think
wisdom also has a very practical kind of
application. So you know Sully
Sullenberger you know the the pilot you
know the plane I don't know if you've
seen the movie but if you remember the
history is that you know a plane takes
off from New York City and both engines
go out and he's over New York City and
he has to engage in an emergency landing
and he has to So who do you want? Do you
want a younger pilot who has faster
reaction times, better memory, or do you
want an older pilot who has more
experience flying but has never landed a
plane on water? And we know how the
story ends thankfully. But most people
would probably, you know, as I asked my
class this, this is like the dilemma.
Where, you know, where is the wisdom?
Where is the knowledge? You know, if
you're the faster pilot, maybe you turn
around and land at an airport. That
makes more sense. But Sully eventually
decided that he had to make this water
landing. And he said the reason he knew
he could pull this off is he used to fly
gliders, you know, and he said the
principles are the same, but it's going
to be a very different, you know,
physics and weight [snorts] management.
But he said he felt like he'd made a
number of um investments over the years
of kind of boosting his knowledge so
that he could make one enormous
withdrawal basically landing this plane
on the Hudson River, which is, you know,
an amazing feat.
>> That's wild.
>> Yeah. And so I think that's, you know,
it's a dramatic Hollywood and there's a
movie about it as well, but I think it's
a a nice illustration of you can
accumulate all this knowledge not just
so you apply what you've learned. It's
you're you're having to, you know,
transform that knowledge saying now I'm
going to apply it in this one emergency
situation. So maybe that's the
difference between, you know, knowledge
which is like I know so much and then
wisdom of like how to carry it out or
when it's appropriate. It does help when
the coaches have played, right? Like
Steve Kerr,
>> but some of the best coaches are the
ones who are the worst. You know, Tommy
Lorta, you know, all these people who
like they struggled and they've seen it
and now they're going to go into
coaching. Um, and maybe that's the same
with older adults. Uh, you know, again,
these two older adults who took my class
who are therapists. You know, it's like
if you see a therapist, would you want
to see a 20-year-old or would you want
to see a 50 or 60 year old? Right? It
just seems like there's going to be a
difference in what they bring to the
table.
Nowadays, I think a lot of people are
going to say chat GPT,
>> which I, you know, I've found great use
of AI in the self- testing thing, not
looking for knowledge, but having chat
GPT generate a self self test, you know,
test me on my knowledge of
>> something. Um, awesome. Because I, as we
were talking about before we went on
mic, you know, self testing is one of
the best ways to learn information,
realize, ah, I got that wrong. I didn't
know that. And that's that's the delta.
That's the difference between where
you're at and where you want to be as
opposed to just reciting things or
highlighting things or writing them
down. Although I do that also, but I
know a lot of people are going to the
internet for answers. And on the one
hand we could say well those answers are
the synthesis of a lot of wise people
potentially but you could say like give
I would like the integrated advice of
Mahatma Gandhi would you know Jane
Goodall and um
>> you know whoever and uh for this
particular situation you know and make
it wise. I don't know what it would say.
I don't want you to do that. It's a
great question. I've I've tried, you
know, I'm not of the era that my
children are in terms of using AI, but
I'd love to be like, answer this like an
80-year-old would. How would you present
it differently if you were older versus
younger? Because a lot of it is just so
much more information than I'm like,
wow, that's great. Can you summarize? I
I don't use it often, but sometimes I'm
like, can you summarize this? Can you
sometimes it misses things and sometimes
it's good but um but yeah it's really
fascinating how how that sort of
synthesis can be so transforming and you
know even my son's like why do I have to
learn this when I can just ask AI now
and it used to be when I was a kid why
do I have to learn this when I can just
look it up in an encyclopedia right it's
like the information is always going to
be there but it's like how you're going
to use it kind of in an informed way and
I always say could you imagine if the
next president said you know I don't
know our foreign policy with Mexico, but
I could look it up. I was like, well,
you want to know a little bit about the
foreign polic like friend or foe or
something, you know, like you have to
have some basic level. And where would
you look it up? Like
>> are you do you have aids that you trust?
Do you have sources that you trust?
>> I don't think you need to know all of
these details, but you need to know kind
of some general knowledge. And usually
that comes from learning all the
details. It's like you've learned all
these details in neuroscience 20 years
ago that you've probably forgotten, but
it informs how you interpret
neuroscience findings today.
>> Yeah, I'm admittedly like such a nerd. I
have this textbook. There's a really
great new textbook. I'm didn't didn't
plan to plug this, but my colleague
Liein Low wrote a principles of
neurobiology textbook that not as beefy
as the principles of neuroscience one
that is
>> out of Colombia, but I'm a west coast
guy, so I I like Leechin's book. And
recently, I just started reading it.
>> Yeah. Yeah,
>> I started flipping through it, reading
it front to back. And of course, I
recognize every line, right? Cuz this is
the area I've spent all these years in,
but I I had not thought about a lot of
it in a while, and I'm thinking about it
a little differently. And maybe I'm
lying to myself, but
>> I tell myself like, there's some
enrichment in this. I don't know what it
is. I'm not just brushing out. There's
something that's going to come of this.
>> I know it, but maybe I'm just defaulting
to the thing that's easiest and maybe I
should be, you know, looking maybe I
should be learning Latin or something
like that instead.
>> It's almost like nostalgia. you're going
back to you remember learning this. It's
also beautiful. It's more fun because
now you're like, I haven't thought about
this in a while, but now I can connect
it to the other things I've been
thinking about. So, it's like going back
to a language you're familiar with or a
city you're familiar with. The big
question is, are we deluding ourselves
into thinking that the brain somehow
gets better as we age? Like, is this a
story we're telling ourselves so that we
can um you know, hold on to more?
Obviously if we do the right things
which you've described in your book and
today you know get a bit more maybe a
lot more uh meaning and experience or in
keeping with the Ericson you know stages
of development where there's a you know
core conflict at every stage of life you
know development doesn't stop when we
become young adults neuroplasticity
continues throughout the lifespan maybe
and I certainly prefer this answer maybe
our brains get better in certain ways
that afford us access to life
experience,
internal
feelings of well-being and peace and
things that are outsized in comparison
to what we can experience when we're
young. I like I like that and like maybe
we do get better in certain ways as we
age.
>> I like that perspective too, of course,
but maybe it's hard to say like what's
better or what's worse. It's like this
is a qualitative difference and if your
expectation of old age is quite low and
you realize wait it doesn't have to be
like that or you know I'm not going to
run as fast as I used to or maybe I
won't be scuba diving but hey it can
actually be very meaningful it might
encourage you to engage in behaviors
that'll allow you to get there and be
there in a you know mobile way a way
that you'll enjoy it.
>> Yeah. So maybe instead of striving to be
a super aager we should strive to be um
super content.
something like that. I don't know.
>> I think there's a quote people say like,
you know, aging is better than the
alternative.
>> Is youth lost on the young though? We're
going to fire back and forth.
>> I definitely feel like there's times
where I'm like, wow, maybe I shouldn't
call the book better with age cuz
[laughter]
let's revise that
>> because of your son's shoulder.
>> Well, you know, just all sorts of things
you can do when you're younger and you
don't even appreciate it. You don't even
think twice like, "Wow, it hurt
yesterday, but it doesn't hurt today."
It's like, h, that's months for me.
>> Yeah, but the social stuff is so
stressful. It can be but I'm not sure at
that time it's relative to what and um
you know I think you know there's a lot
of challenges with younger people today
and you know going through co and so on
but I've also seen
>> kind of a more focus on mental health
like I've seen you know with my
daughters they're like I'm going to go
for a walk when I was 17 I wasn't just
going for a walk I was like walking to
get somewhere or you know running to get
something but now there's this awareness
of like maybe I'll take care of myself
or maybe I'll listen to that podcast
while I'm walking. It's like, wow, that
seems like very wise. And so, I'm
impressed. And I hope that, you know,
those sorts of habits as you develop
them earlier can stay with you and maybe
buffer in this midlife where it's like,
I always have to be busy. I can't, you
know, stop and and think about things.
And I think maybe that's why my interest
or even obsession with aging is to be
like, wow, there's this group of people
that seem to be doing pretty well and I
really enjoy being around them. How can
I be like them? And oh, it so happens
they're older adults. But, you know, if
you went to a country and you're like,
"This this group of people are really
cool and interesting and kind of quirky.
Maybe I'll live here." And to me, that
might be what older age can be. And
sure, they're sometimes frail and have
to rely on other people, but that's not
always such a bad thing if you have the
right structure in place.
>> You're doing important work, and I'm
grateful that you would come here today
and share your knowledge, your wisdom
with us. Um, your book, I didn't know
you were going to give me a book today.
Better with age. I'll I'm going to read
it. The psychology of successful aging.
I'm going to encourage you to write more
books because clearly you've gathered
more knowledge since then. But um it's a
rare find that uh somebody is doing
really interesting science and their
work is immediately applicable and that
it taps into a segment of our population
that exists everywhere in the world but
that frankly doesn't get quite as much
attention research attention as um other
areas. I know there's a big interest in
longevity. there's a big interest in in
aging and preserving what we have. But
in addition to studying all those
things, uh you clearly study other
aspects of you know what's unique and
great about people, you know, 50, dare I
say, and and above and and what we can
all learn. Um because if we're lucky
enough to live into those decades, we're
all going to be benefiting from this
knowledge. So, thanks for coming here
today. Let's let's do it again as as
more more comes off the mill from your
lab.
>> Thank you. Thanks for getting the word
out. It's really um wonderful to hear
kind of how to digest this and gives me
new ideas of what to what we can pursue
as we think about this.
>> Great. It's been a pleasure. Thank you.
>> Thank you. Thanks.
>> Thank you for joining me for today's
discussion with Dr. Alan Castell. To
learn more about his research and to
find a link to his book, Better with
Age: The Psychology of Successful Aging,
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