The message of the impending [music]
apocalypse has been with us for a long
time, but that grand vision hasn't
arrived yet. If you think the apocalypse
is lingering 10 years into the future,
there's all sorts of things you're not
going to do or bother investigating.
>> Yes.
>> So, it really is a huge way that you can
control the behavior of an entire
planet.
>> Jason Samosa runs one of my favorite
YouTube channels on UFOs. I think one of
the things people really struggle with
is can we be engaging with this huge
phenomenon whilst also human beings may
have created technology [music] that
could imitate it. There is an
organization which was created initially
in 1945. It's called the world commerce
corporation on the board. Donovan
Stevenson Hamro Dulles [music] doing the
legal council. You've got paper
aristocracy on the board as well but
eventually it links to the Bahamas with
Thomas [music] Towns and Brown and that
whole geographical location. How does it
link with the Bahamas?
>> Yeah. Well, um, Resorts International,
you familiar with them?
>> No.
>> There's this paint company called the
Mary Carter Paint Company, which is then
converted into this organization called
Resorts International. It suddenly has a
subsidiary which has a private
intelligence network called Intel, which
is doing very dubious stuff. You know
who becomes the controller of Resorts
International in the mid80s? Who?
>> Donald Trump.
>> No way.
You see this sort of conflation of the
deep state issue and the underground
criminal networks with the UFO issue.
>> Shifting gears before both of us get
whacked.
>> The royal prince of Likenstein, Hans
Adam, he believes Jesus will show up on
a flying saucer.
>> That would be a great end to it all.
>> Yeah, I'm back. [laughter]
>> Revelation is like it's a revelation.
New information is coming in. So, how we
view the future, I think, is really
important.
>> [music]
>> The lens through which we interpret this
incredibly mysterious thing is going to
be pretty decisive.
>> Ignition sequence.
[music]
>> How is this possible?
>> Nothing too unusual about that. [music]
>> Their existence cannot longer be denied.
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episode.
I'm here with Jason Samosa who runs one
of my favorite YouTube channels uh on
UFOs. You're incredible at explaining
things, at breaking things down, really
complicated kind of complex threads in
ufology and also explaining to people, I
think, where they get thrown off most
when it comes to UFOs and it's a it's
just an amazing channel. You do all
these historical deep dives and so I'm
really grateful to have you, man.
>> Thanks, Jesse. It's good to be here,
man. I think people on the outside of
ufology assume, you know, it's all just
kind of, you know, little green men
coming from Zeta Reticuli or something.
Uh I think you have a much kind of
deeper, more complex understanding of
the topic. Is that your kind of base
case assumption that these are just uh
extraterrestrial travelers? I think when
it comes to that, I tend to rest on uh
Jacqu Valet's work. You know, if you
read messengers of deception, he talks
about how the extraterrestrial
hypothesis doesn't make much sense. We
have so many cases of these things
coming in and they land on our planet
and they behave in unusual ways. And
after a while, you begin to ask the
question, well, what is it that they're
trying to achieve, right? If they're
coming here to do some sort of
reconnaissance or some sort of
investigation, why have they continue to
land over and over again? And why are
there so many different variations of
them? So the extraterrestrial hypothesis
doesn't do justice to the data. But I
think one of the big issues there is
most people when they see that they just
throw it out. They say, "Well, if I
can't rationalize that data based on the
hypothesis I think it should fit,
therefore I'm not going to take this
topic seriously." But in reality, there
are other layers you can go to then when
you see all of these cases and that sort
of strange what are they doing here? You
might be able to go a level deeper in
terms of trying to understand it. And I
think that's where valet is is
particularly helpful.
>> So what do you and what does Jacqu Valet
think they are doing here?
>> Well, I'm glad to be grouped together
with Valet. [laughter]
I'll tell you what the two of us have
discussed.
>> Yeah, that's right. I
>> I think uh Jacqu Valet looks at those
cases and says, well, what is the impact
that UFOs are having on society? Okay,
so we're seeing a phenomenon and we're
seeing the data of that becoming kind of
indisputable, however strange it might
be. uh it's possible that the objectives
of that phenomenon may be something more
subtle. And so what he does is he looks
at the the cultural impact of UFOs over
time and what impact does that have on
human belief systems and therefore what
can we assume the motivations might be
of the beings that operate this thing.
And by the way, it may well be, and I
think he said this recently in the uh
the James Fox thing that he did, we may
be engaging with an artificial
intelligence, which in turn has been
created by a nonhuman intelligence from
another planet. The current segmentation
of the data hinders any [snorts] serious
research into what appears to be an
extraterrestrial phenomenon empowered by
advanced artificial intelligence.
>> So it could be the case that there's
sort of layers to this as well. But what
impact is this huge vast system having?
because obviously there's been a huge
investment to create this thing which
continually reappears and does all these
things. So what could the motivations
be? And I think that's the angle he goes
down.
>> Yeah. So it's like humans and human
belief systems are the end product.
They're not like some incidental result
of another thing that's going on. The
the intended effect is actually to
create mythology in some ways.
>> Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. uh and he talks
about how symbols and mythology may
exist at a level that's kind of a a
level down from our normal discourse and
that those changes can be quite profound
over time. Um so yes it could be that a
slow shift in how we perceive ourselves
and the world around us could be the
intention. Yeah.
>> So then you have to view that mythology
that gets created through kind of a
suspicious hermeneutic. You have to say,
okay, you know, if we start to talk
about environmental destruction and
nuclear war and all these things,
>> maybe taking those things at face value
isn't the best idea. I mean, maybe they
are to be taken at face value. Maybe
these beings are coming from another
planet. They're saying, "You're
destroying yourself. You're on the eve
of the the apocalypse or whatever." Uh
and then and then maybe there's some
intended effect that you know maybe
that's they know that that narrative is
charismatic and so they'll give it to to
us but they're actually sort of you know
messengers of deception.
>> Yes. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I think
that's a big thing. The uh the message
of the impending apocalypse has been
with us for a long time.
>> Like if you read the Old Testament
prophets uh so much of it is the doom
and gloom of what's about to come. And
you know in many ways we experience that
in some form throughout history but that
grand vision hasn't arrived yet.
>> Um and it's it's this is one of the huge
challenges and I think this is why this
idea of deception is so important is how
am I supposed to delineate between what
this phenomenon is trying to generate in
terms of our human culture and what
we're trying to achieve potentially in
response to it. Because when you get to
this point where we're questioning
whether or not our beliefs and our
thoughts are our own, you kind of
collapse into this soypism, you know,
and it doesn't become very helpful. So
>> or radical cartisian doubt.
>> Exactly. Yeah. Like how am I supposed to
figure out what I'm supposed to be
thinking? Yes. Right. It's a little bit
too deep. Um so I don't know what the
answers are there in terms of what the
phenomenon is trying to achieve. But I
think certainly the everything we
encounter as an extraterrestrial being
and every single experience should be
taken at face value
>> is maybe too simplistic an approach
because on balance it appears to be very
deceptive. M and yeah, apocalyptic I
believe there's a what's that? Uh it's
like uh when prophecy fails was this
like you know in the the 50s there was
this cult created in Ohio and it the the
cult creation seems to be this thing in
ufology where like you have this one
kind of contacteee
uh you know and uh around that person is
created this sort of mythology and you
end up with you know and often there's a
prophecy involved and they're like you
know something's going to happen in like
the next few years or something. Um do
you think that is a kind of a a core
product of ufology and UFO contact
whether you know going back to like you
know Adamsky and people like that you
know you know the some of the early
contacties in the US. Yeah, I mean
whether it's the intention of the
phenomenon or not to create those cults,
they do appear.
>> And you know, this is one of these
things where belief systems can spawn
quite extreme outcomes because you know,
if a group of us are experiencing
something that feels truly phenomenal
and no one on the outside can even
interact with that on an experiential
level, our ability to have coherent
dialogue with the outside world
completely collapses. And so what
happens is you get this little bubble of
of experience which just begins to go
off on its own completely um you know
separate from the world. So I think that
does happen. There is a a part that you
know Valet talks about in messages of
deception where he talks about how if
suddenly there was a mass appearance of
UFOs in the world. So let's say some
sort of event those cults could suddenly
blossom whilst trust in the government
collapses. And that's one of the fears
that he's got. He suggests that actually
we need to be very aware that the
current status quo of what's going on on
the planet could suddenly change
overnight in a mass appearance event.
And uh you know that could be very
concerning.
>> Yeah. And I think it's concerning for
governments as well like uh Jolly West.
Do you know who that is? He was one of
the architects of uh MK Ultra and he was
a head of UCLA psychiatry out in LA
actually. And you know now there are all
these theories that he might have
brainwashed Charles Manson. really
crazy. But he his whole thing was he he
he was really interested in cult
creation and Philip Zimardo at Stanford
with the Stanford prison experiments
like all very similar a lot of the
psychology that was probably state
funded at the time was it was extremely
interested in the uh creation of cults
because as you're saying those are kind
of inherently subversive organizations
>> um and so yeah it's it's interesting to
think of ufology through that through
that lens.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.
>> Yeah. And some of these cults are seem
to be very apocalyptic. That seems to be
like a a part of
>> their their whole thing like, you know,
that the end times are here. We're
living in, you know, you know, is the
book of Revelations or something. And
>> it's interesting how that's kind of gone
beyond just cults now into our
mainstream as well, right? You know,
we've moved to a point where this idea
of the apocalypse, it's kind of just
part of how we see the world.
>> You know, is that a progression from the
cults or the phenomenon over time? this
>> it creates a sense of desperation and
urgency around people which could be
manipulated, you know.
>> Yeah.
>> I always like to say uh if you know that
your mom's about to cook dinner, if she
tells you that dinner is going to be
ready 1 hour, you're much less likely to
go to the fridge.
>> Right.
>> Right. Sure.
>> So if you think the apocalypse is
lingering, I don't know, 10 years into
the future, there's all sorts of things
you're not going to do or bother
investigating. Yes. Um, so it really is
a huge way that you can control the
behavior of an entire planet is if they
all become convinced that we're pretty
much at the end of things or even if
that's lingering in the subconscious.
>> Yeah. It could be totally used as a way
to kind of pacify people. What What do
you think I guess cuz a lot of what you
cover also are these kind of analytical
overlays imposed on the UFO question um
by you know various groups. And so one
would be the extraterrestrial thing.
Another thing would be angels and demons
and the whole, you know, kind of uh
Judeo-Christian overlay.
>> You want to talk a little bit about
that?
>> Yeah, I think this is super important.
Um, a lot of people are trying to
grapple with what the phenomenon is. And
so we go from the extraterrestrial
hypothesis and we begin to see it
doesn't make a lot of sense of what
we're seeing.
>> But you can move over and you can start
to consider it to be demonic, right? M
and there is a correlation between a
cult activity and the phenomenon that's
demonstrable and you know Valet's
demonstrated that and Peter Lender there
are so many examples of this so it is
compelling to ask the question maybe the
extraterrestrial the demon the angel all
of these different things are sort of a
consistent experience of the same
phenomenon underneath and I think that
that's very compelling
>> what can happen there is you can quickly
begin to move over and say well wait a
The Bible said a whole bunch of really
interesting things about these beings.
Um, you know, for example, that there
are these fallen angels that become
these demons and that they're deceptive
and that there's this huge end times
deception which is designed to trick
humanity into moving away from God and
starting to believe some sort of false
doctrine. And a lot of people look at
the phenomenon, they say it's not
extraterrestrial and it is deceptive and
it correlates with the occult. And so
what happens is very quickly we snap
into this idea that this could be
validating the Bible. There's a problem
here which is kind of circular
reasoning. You're using this sort of I
think relatively useful interpretation
of the phenomenon to go back to the
Bible and say, "Wait a minute, maybe we
should give this book a second look."
But actually underneath there, you're
also using the Bible to create the
argument in the first place. And so a
lot of this comes down to whether or not
we take the Bible to be a source of
authority on how we interpret things or
whether or not we actually focus on the
science of the phenomenon. And I think
it's interesting to look through the
community. I mean, I recently made a
video on the Collins elite, right? Or
explored this topic in depth.
>> And I was trying my best to steal man
the argument that UFOs could be demons
because I thought it was interesting and
it's good to build that picture. uh
inadvertently in the comments there's so
many people saying I knew the Bible was
right all of this stuff and I'm just
like no that's not what I was trying to
say but so quickly people get funneled
down there
>> and it can lead to quite extreme
outcomes because the moment the Bible
becomes your epistemological foundation
your ability to look at all the other
data shuts down
>> and I think it's a big issue that we
have to grapple with as things
accelerate
>> who are the Colins elite
>> gosh I wish I could tell you with
complete confidence who they are um you
know one of the interesting things I've
learned is that I think people on the
inside talk about the Collins league,
they've been talking about them for a
while, whether it's, you know, Jacqu
Valet or George Knapp or whoever. When
they use that word, I think they're
often referring to multiple things. So,
first and foremost, you've got this
fantastic book by Nick Redford, Final
Events, where he talks about this
program called, we don't know the real
name, but it's known as the Collins
Elite.
>> It was founded in uh well, it it traces
back to right after the Roswell crash.
they're trying to understand what this
phenomenon is. And if you read um
Rupelt's book on uh you know the
unexplained stuff that was going on then
he talks through how they go through all
these hypotheses. It's like is it human?
Could it be Russian? Could it somehow be
Nazi technology? And then there's this
extraterrestrial hypothesis. What this
Collins elite thing reveals is there was
also a conversation about whether it
could be uh overlaid with the occult,
what was being experienced. So that
eventually leads to a funded program
according to Nick Redern's sources and
he met with a bunch of people who
validated other sources he had and that
was uh 1952 through the directorate of
plans um in the CIA I think they
unlocked funding and basically about 12
people were employed to look into this
full-time. So you have a funded program
which I don't think special access
programs were a thing then by that
terminology but it sounds like that
because director of plans funding is
associated with mockingb bird gladadio
all these like really covert operations.
>> So you've got that program investigating
the correlation between UFOs and the
occults.
>> You've also got other components. So if
you read Valet's journals uh he points
out Alonzo Macdonald as being uniquely
involved in this. And I'm looking at
Alonzo McDonald who I know you you had
your um discussion with the two Erics
recently right where he came up.
>> Alonzo McDonald was the staff director
for uh Jimmy Carter.
>> And if you look at him, he was uh I
think he was CEO of McKenzie.
>> Mhm.
>> Right. Consulting firm. So I'm like
Alonzo McDonald isn't going to be
invited into a very very sensitive
program exploring the relationship
between UFOs and the occult. Could be
completely wrong, but it just doesn't
seem like that would be the case. So I
began to look into that and ask the
question, well what's going on? And if
you look into this organization called
the family, the fellowship, they were
founded in the 30s and really took off
in the postwar era. Um they basically
created this invisible network of sort
of Protestant Christians throughout
government. And there's a wonderful book
by a guy called Jeff uh Charlotte or
Charlotte um it's a brilliant book where
he basically explores this and
identifies key members of the family.
Alonzo McDonald is is one of them. That
network has many people who've been
involved in sort of UFO Jason stuff. So
when you go into the Reagan
administration, you've got James Baker
who's then his staff director. James
Baker is also a member of the family. So
you know the Democrats lose, the
Republicans win, but you have a
consistent presence at the family right
at the nexus of power in the executive
branch. And James Baker is also a member
of the family and he's involved in a UFO
breach uh briefing according to Nick
Redern.
>> So he's invited into uh a briefing that
uh Reagan gets where a bunch of people
come in. One's from CIA S&T which is
presumably Kit Green and his people. You
got the Collins elite who come in and
then there's another group who who do a
briefing as well. Alonzo McDonald, James
Baker both sat in or had, you know,
direct information about the UFO topic
within the context of the White House.
>> So, it raises the question, this network
of people,
>> how big is it and what do they know? And
sometimes if someone is trying to shut
down activity in the government related
to UFO investigations because they claim
that it's demonic and you shouldn't be
looking into this, don't just assume
that it's that 1952 program which has
become known as the Collins Elite. It
may well be that it's the family which
also sometimes I think fly under the
same moniker
>> and those are just two components out of
three. So just to get us started. Yeah.
>> Yeah. It's fascinating. Yeah. This guy
Doug Co was the one of the leaders of
the family in the 80s and he would hold
this prayer breakfast. Yeah. And all of
the presidents would have to attend the
prayer breakfast and you know it almost
felt like at the prayer breakfast Doug
had more status than the presidents or
something. Uh-huh.
>> Um, so it's super fascinating. What it's
funny when I hear, you know, people
talking about uh aliens as angels or
demons, I have like two reactions.
>> One is, you know, if sometime you'll
hear like um, you know, Sean Ryan and
Tucker Carlson and like we think it's
spiritual, we think it's demonic. And
then I say, well, what does that mean?
What do you like? You're just saying
you're just saying an angel or a demon.
Like what is an angel or a demon? Like
you do have these, you know, angel
hierarchies and taxonomies from St.
Thomas Aquinus and you know people
historically but uh that doesn't that
just has like a big you know kind of a
lot of baggage attached to it has a
connotation attached to it but what does
that actually mean would be my kind of
challenge to those people and then I
would have a kind of equal and opposite
challenge to the people who say that
angels and demons definitely have
nothing to do with the conversation.
Yes. And the challenge there would be
like there's probably something you know
the concept Lindy like which is you know
um how long an idea has survived is
basically its kind of value to society
and it's also determines its expected
future age and so Plato and the Bible
are probably more valuable than like I
don't know the pet shop boys or
something you know some like random
contemporary thing that's just not that
old. Uh and so uh you know you're seeing
a thing you know angels and demons have
existed for thousands of years. uh you
know they are these sort of you know
they they play tricks on you or whatever
and they they smell like sulfur like
there are all these different like
attributes of them and some of the ma
attributes seem to match up with some of
these thing like you talk to Jacqu Valle
he'll be like yeah like you you want to
get rid of this thing if if you know you
if you're you know a constant
experiencer or an abductee or whatever
um and he often talks about fallen
angels himself
>> so I think there's this kind of
two-pronged like wait like you can't
just end the conversation on angels and
demons for those people
>> and then there are like the you know
super secular people who just want to
like entirely throw that out and I'm
like wait that seems like an important
possible overlay.
>> Yeah. I think the key thing here is you
know we need to look at all the
experiences from history. The moment you
realize this phenomenon is real the next
question is how long's it been going on?
>> And then it turns out our entire history
all our mythology is mentioning
references to these beings. M we need to
take it seriously from all religions
right from all of these documented
experiences. The pitfall comes when we
cease to look at these experiences as
like okay this these people believed
this they had this experience they
documented it we can take it relatively
seriously to these 66 books describe
exactly what's going to happen in the
future and none of the other holy texts
out there do. Yeah.
>> And that's the lockdown where you either
remain open to the data or you get
locked in. And I think one of the issues
we have is is is terminology.
Unfortunately, angels, demons, these are
I guess the Judeo-Christian thing is out
of fashion now, but they're
Judeo-Christian terms. And it may well
be helpful for us to consider whether we
try and rename those.
>> Well, I think it would be fascinating to
somehow find some common Joseph Campbell
style underpinning between the religions
where there's always some consciousness
chain between man and God.
>> Yes. And so you have the davas you know
in Hinduism you have um you know the jin
and Islam like it's almost the exception
to the rule to find a religion where
there isn't consciousness between man
and god and so what uh normalizes
between you know the descriptions of all
of these beings across all these
religions I think would be a worthy
inquiry
>> 100%. Yeah, you could even just go back
to angel evangelon which is just
messenger, right? And that function of a
messenger going out from this place to
human beings with a message is exactly
what
>> what these these phenomenon tend to try
and represent anyway. So there's useful
terms you can connect very quickly with.
The challenge we have is the moment you
start to use those Christian terms
again, people's ability to think clearly
just switches off. All people, but you
know it can happen. Well, then you could
say it's like it's it's these things are
mythologies and and Christianity is is a
mythology just like some of these other
mythologies and and then and then
Christian but then Christianity for
whatever reason seems to have this you
know charismatic very helpful effect for
like more people get scaled better than
a lot of these other things and then you
have to ask why and I don't know and
>> well you know this is so interesting I
remember when I was losing my faith and
I had to go and answer questions to the
people who'd been teaching me about the
world of Christianity Yeah, cuz let's
back up for a sec cuz you have a very
interesting just origin story. Do you
want to tell that to people and and then
get into this?
>> It's a great day for me. I finally have
an origin story. I feel amazing. Um
yeah, I mean I I became a Christian at
the age of 19. Uh kind of out of
nowhere. I mean all the people who knew
me growing up would never have imagined
it would have happened. Um but it began
to fall in place for a variety of
personal reasons. you know, the way I
was seeing the world was is a very dark
place where there's a lot of problems.
Kind of like an esqueological stage for
the Bible to step onto. You know, I
began to see the world that way. And I
was looking for spirituality. And
unfortunately, I looked at, you know,
various other pathways. You know, sort
of Buddhist and Eastern spirituality is
pretty cool for someone of my age at
that point. And I looked down those
avenues. And unfortunately, every time I
did, there was always a price associated
with, you know, learning that
information. So it kind of turned me
off. But it doesn't mean that those
things don't have value. It's just in
that moment. But eventually I I became
quite despondent. I prayed. I said, you
know, look, whoever you are, mysterious
cosmic force, help me cuz I can't seem
to find the truth. Two weeks later, I
watched a video about the Bible. And you
know, despite wanting to treat it with
scorn, I found myself enlightened by it.
Very much like you're saying, right,
there's there's this charismatic effect
that comes out of the Bible. And it is
incredibly beautiful. And particularly
the sermon on the mount, you know, I I
read that and I found some of the things
that Jesus was saying were so profound
and it not even like the word profound
makes it sound like I discovered some
esoteric mystery. What was so wonderful
about it is it was actually just common
sense in terms of how you view people
and their behavior and you know what
does it really mean to be good or to be
evil. um he sort of cuts through the
conversation in a fresh way and uh all
the esqueological stuff that came with
it about this deception the end times
because of the way I was thinking at the
time I was like that makes sense this
seems beautiful I met Christians who are
wonderful people and I snapped in you
know after a while you stop trying to
rationalize whether you are going to
believe in it you start getting on with
it and as I did I found it to be a you
know an amazing experience um I was so
invested in And I was training to become
a preacher uh for for many years and
that was going full throttle until I was
about to go and get full theological
training. And for a church like the one
I was in, the money involved in that is
it's a lot of money. And a very wise man
called Viv Whitten. I can see him in my
mind's eye. He was a wonderful guy. And
he said, you know, you should actually
just pause here, take a year, go get a
normal job. I'm 25. All I've ever done
at this point is like be in this
environment every single day of my life.
constantly. So I went and got a job in a
call center which was [clears throat] a
real shock to the system. [laughter] It
really was. You know like I was up in
one of the most deprived towns in
England in this call center meeting the
most wonderful people but I just spent
three years studying theology,
philosophy and you know being in a
Christian bubble. It was really weird.
And I just began to lose began to lose
the grip of what I what I thought I'd
believed. And I spend a lot of time
digging in and trying to figure out, can
I really prove this to be true?
>> You know, I I believe Jesus rose from
the dead, but I'm I'm beginning to doubt
that. How do I prove that? Because I
need a bedrock here, an epistemological
foundation, so that next time these
doubts come, I can just deal with them
because it was pretty shocking suddenly
wondering whether I was going to
continue. My whole life was in this
space. And uh eventually, no matter how
far I went in terms of proving the
genuine historicity of large chunks of
the Bible, knowing the incredible moral
value it had brought to my life, I
couldn't prove that I was in
communication with God, that the Bible
was literally inspired by God or that
Jesus had risen from the dead. I I
believe there's a mystery there about
what happened with Jesus. I think he was
a astonishing individual. And that kind
of gets back to what I was going to say
a moment ago, which is that I realized
of all the millions of amazing pieces of
literature that have been written in our
in our human history, surely one of
them's got to be the best. And you know,
it may well be that at the very top of
that stack, you've got, you know, the
Plato's and the Gospels and, you know,
these books that just, you know, it you
read the original dialogues with
Socrates, you get a somewhat similar
feeling that you get from some of the
gospels when he talks about how wisdom
starts with recognizing that you know
nothing. You know, that's it. there
there's something there. There's you can
see some of it in Confucious. You can
see it in the Gospels. It's it's all
kind of popping up at the same time in
human history and it's all beautiful and
impactful. So, I kind of reached a point
where that was that and uh later on
entering UFO world, I I found all of
that to be very useful background. But
now, especially as things are
accelerating with the discussion, you
know, people are talking about UFOs more
than they ever have. I don't know if you
know this, but the UFO subreddit in 2017
when the New York Times article came
out, it had 70,000 people on it. After
that article, now it's 2026, there are 4
million people on that subreddit.
>> Wa, it's wild. Okay, so I always say to
people, it doesn't matter whether you
believe this stuff or not,
>> there's a wave coming of people having
to engage with this because it's kind of
like the cult thing, right? There's a
subculture bubbling up here and people
are beginning to engage with it and they
don't have the answers or clarity they
need. We do have these old religious
frameworks and what if we end up using
those and kind of trapping ourselves in
a framework about how we view it instead
of letting us see whatever this
unbelievable thing is.
>> Yeah.
>> But then the meta view also is like if
you have this almost like social
contagion around the thing, you almost
have to be skeptical of that as well.
>> Exactly.
>> And like realize that quote unquote
disclosure is just a personal process.
It's just something that an individual
goes through themselves. It's not some
line in the sand like it's actually some
sort of seeding of one's uh own
spiritual authority to some other group
to say that they can give you a bunch of
documents and then that you know that
that somehow provides meaning for you
like what is it who cares you
>> and on some level like I you know I want
it to happen because I think
>> you know um it'll move the Overton
window and you know you'll have young
people able to ask these questions you
know these things can be taught in
academic settings all of those things
would be amazing second order effects of
Trump releasing documents, but the idea
that that's somehow going to like give,
you know, somebody meaning in their life
is insane.
>> Yeah.
>> And that's sort of like some people's
orientation towards the thing.
>> Yeah. 100%. Yeah. There's this fixation
on the information we don't have and the
injustice that we haven't received it.
So, we become convinced that as long as
I can get that information out,
everything's going to be solved.
>> It's so funny. And it's so funny to see
like like some government official who's
clearly doesn't even think about UFOs
will make some off-hand remark about
some, you know, a hybrid breeding
program or like a certain base where
they saw a thing and you'll see somebody
on Twitter and they're like, "Is this
disclosed? Did we just get it?" It's
like, [laughter] "Are you following
sports? Like what are you doing?" Like
who cares? That person doesn't know
anything. They're doing the thing
because of their own cynical, you know,
motivation. and they want to distract
from a thing or they it's opportunistic
or whatever. So just you know again I
think there are second order kind of
knock-on effects that are positive.
>> Yeah.
>> And so maybe you should view it through
that lens but if you're like really
pumped about it personally like maybe
you should think twice or something you
know it's like what who cares?
>> Yeah. It brings me back to Tom Dong when
he met Neil McCassland. And after that
initial phone call, I think Neil
McCasslin had said,
>> you know, I'm worried that you might
find a group of people stumbling around
an elephant, right? Sort of feeling out
like I think it's
>> blind men touching different parts of an
elephant.
>> Exactly. Yeah. They think it's all
different things because no one even has
the full picture. Yeah.
>> So, it might well be that even if we got
full disclosure, we're going to be
deeply unsatisfied with the with the
information that we receive.
>> Yeah, I think that's right. And Yeah.
Exactly. There's nothing to disclose
because the government,
>> they might have an asymmetric an
asymmetric data set, but they don't have
some, you know, monopoly on, you know,
how the world works. That's just or
metaphysics or something.
>> Um,
>> you just mentioned two very interesting
names that we should give, you know,
maybe a broader audience who's not mired
in UFO world a little context on.
>> Sure. Neil McCassland uh is a a general
who ran
the lab where the Roswell wreckage was
rumored to have been taken at Wright
Patterson and he ran the the the Air
Force Research Laboratory and then Tom
Delong is the Blink 182 frontman.
>> Who would have thought those two things
would go together?
>> How did they come together? What? Give
me Give us the context.
>> Oh man. Yeah, this is the whole story
that that got me like into this in a big
way. uh because it sounds preposterous
and every time I try and you know
recently one of my best friends he's
getting into this topic and he's like
I've got this long drive coming up can
you suggest some podcasts and I was like
you got to listen to the Tom Dong thing
and he's you know I can tell in his mind
he's like what are you on about
seriously but the story is is kind of
unbelievable I mean essentially Dong I
think had become deeply interested in
this from a very young age there's
there's video footage of him talking
about this you know you're you're kind
of wondering if he's even started
Blink182 at this
Uh so he was fascinated and uh at some
point in 2013 he started to build this
kind of project about how he would
integrate music media and try and use it
to communicate bigger stuff. I think
it's a natural consequence of being in a
band for so long and wanting to find
better meaning and being interested in a
topic. Um at some point he began to make
connections and meet people you know and
I think that actually happened
relatively early. Neil McCastassland and
and the people that come later that's
2015 2016 but Peter Leender who was
someone who worked closely with Dong he
said by the time he joined which was
November 2014 there were already 10
advisers so Dong already had accumulated
a group of people who were advising him
on stuff anyway before this group of
people that we tend to focus on
how it happened um it's it's a question
of whether you believe the stories that
that came out about it or not but Valet
Jacqu Valet a validate the original
original story which is that Dong had
made contact with someone who worked at
Loheed Martin skunk works and that
individual had said look would you come
and sort of be the MC for this special
day we're having where it's like a big
family event and he said yes as long as
I can speak to the individual who who
runs the show right and get a chance to
sit down and I think Delong I I come
from a a sales background as well as a
religious one which arguably could be
said to be the same thing um but he's uh
he's one of the best sales people you'll
ever come across cuz what he did is he
took his unbelievable fascination in the
UFO topic and he clearly had asked the
question what is it that these people
really want right Delong could have gone
in there and said I want the answers and
become adversarial and tried to squeeze
it out but I think he was very aware
that not all people who work in the
government are fundamentally evil. There
are lots of people who are moms and dads
who find themselves working for these
aerospace companies who may be dealing
with really complicated stuff and are
busy trying to achieve those objectives
and meanwhile people's perception of
them is plummeting because they're
unable to communicate clearly about
what's going on. I think that's a real
situation. So he went in there and
basically said, "Look, um, how can we
help communicate things in a way that
doesn't touch on classified data, helps
people understand some of the big
concepts around this stuff?" And I think
they were uneasy at first, but then he
sent this individual um, a piece of
content that the vendor had written, and
it was all around cargo cults. And the
idea being that there were these uh,
gosh, I didn't even know geographically
where this happened, but there was some
sort of tribe and remote area,
>> French Polynesia.
>> French Polynesia. There you go. and they
could see these planes landing and uh
you know dropping off all this cargo and
like stuff, food, resources um and there
was this kind of you know flight tower
and all of these lights and everything
and in their mind their response was
look if we can replicate what we're
seeing so we make the tower out of trees
and you know put these lights here maybe
we'll also get the thing to land and
that happened that's documented which is
hugely interesting in terms of you know
how we perceive many things that were
constructed a long time ago and how we
might perceive the origins of our
various religious establishments. Um so
that suddenly got these people
interested. They were like, "Oh, you
have a much more sophisticated view on
this than the government's hiding
aliens. You're trying to understand the
history of human engagement with
potentially a phenomena which has been
here for a long time." A bunch of
meetings start. So he's flown out to the
Pentagon where he meets with someone and
they say, "Okay, now you're going to
NASA where he meets with some people. I
think arguably you could say maybe Pete
Warden who's a onestar NASA general may
have been there. Um and there's someone
else as well who I I forget their name
but then eventually it leads out towards
this this area sort of California. He's
meeting with uh I think General Mike
Kerry was one of the individuals who
eventually introduced him to General
William Neil McCassland. Um so by this
point he's acrewed multiple advisers. Uh
what happens is at this time he's giving
all these podcasts and the first time I
heard these podcasts I was like there's
no way this could be true. He was saying
I have met the people who are managing
the UFO thing. They've started to speak
to me the frontman from Blink182 and
they're telling me all of these things.
Okay. And you can tell he's really
excited but he's also a little bit
nervous. And it's really interesting
because it's one of these things where
you listen to it and on paper it doesn't
make any sense. No rational person would
believe that can happen. But his
enthusiasm was really hard to ignore.
You know, there's an intuition you can
have listening to someone where you
think, well, maybe you're just deluded,
but you definitely believe this. Anyway,
fast forward to the 2016 elections. And
you know, if you look back at it now,
and I've documented this as thoroughly
as I can, Podesta and Clinton were
talking a lot about UFOs. And people say
like, you know, oh, they were just
talking about it cuz they were trying to
get votes. And it's like, are you
kidding me? There's a guy called Dennis
Cusinich who was in a 2010 election I
think uh the moment his name became
associated with UFOs this was a former
Democratic candidate for the presidency
in a debate stage he was pretty much
laughed off stage and his candidacy
plummeted. Okay. So it had been proven
in Democratic circles associating
yourself with the UFO topic is uh is not
a good thing. So Clinton and Podesta are
talking about UFOs which is very
strange. Podesta's emails get hacked
obviously and in those emails you find a
correspondence. I think there were 35
emails back and forth between Tom Dong
and Podesta's team there's that meeting
where you've got General Neil McCastland
and Michael Kerry and Robert Vice the
president of the skunk works along with
Podesta and along
>> and Podesta is Clinton's chief of staff.
>> That's right. Yeah. So he's he's he's
running that and uh you know along with
that there's a really interesting moment
in the emails where one of the staffers
this is also interesting because the
staffers seem to understand there's a
UFO conversation going on
>> a lot of these people are connected to
the Center for American uh progress
which is Podesta's sort of big liberal
think tank in DC and at one point
there's an individual mentioned and one
of the staffers said uh John maybe we
should consider this individual for the
UFO project and you're like okay So
obviously this staffer and all the other
people on the email including Podesta
and this is mid205
I think already have a UFO project.
>> We're like far away from the election at
this point and uh anyway it turns out
Tom Dong's been in there connecting with
Podesta with all these people and these
conversations really were going on which
was then further validated by Jack Valet
someone who has huge questions about
that whole thing. By the way he's a big
skepticism about what they were trying
to achieve. you read his journals, it
absolutely did happen.
>> Yeah.
>> What What do you think they were trying
to achieve? Because I think
>> the for me I know there's a there there
underneath the UFO question. Like I know
there's something worthy of inquiry
scientifically there.
>> And then I think the metaological
question that a lot of people who are
mired in UFOs right now don't tend to
ask is why have we seen this just
ridiculous resurgence in popularity? Why
is the subreddit of UFOs grown from a
few hundred thousand to, you know, 4
million uh over the course of 10 years?
And is that being pushed? Is there some
sort of engineered on high UFO
disclosure thing happening right now?
And and and what would be the motivation
for that? Because you said, you know,
you're like, could this guy be the guy
for the UFO project? And by the way, I
have personally very little doubt of uh
Tom Dong's sincerity and his
intelligence and actually long interest
and standing interest organically in the
topic. Um and I think he kind of
vigilante like you know made a lot of
this stuff happen. But it also seems
like there was a confluence between that
organic interest on his part and then
like people in the government wanting to
do something on UFOs. Do you think that
was just this stuff has been, you know,
we've had this low energy cold war
orientation towards this thing, we've
kept it secret for too long, people
deserve to know, or do you think it was
a little more cynical than that? Do you
have a take there?
>> Yeah, I do. Yeah, I really do. I I think
um in terms of the timing, Jacqu Valet's
most recent journals are very
interesting. Um I you know I was digging
into Dong as my first foyer into this
topic in a serious way because I was
like if I can prove that this is
legitimate then I can you know sit on
top of this and say there seems to be a
there there and uh I'd always been
trying to figure out when did the thing
really start where did this come from.
You get to Valet's most recent journals,
he documents early in 2013 rumors coming
out of the White House and uh these
rumors are essentially saying they're
planning to do something called
confirmation, not disclosure. Okay, so
there's some sort of distinction there
in terms of like we're not going to go
all the way with trying to reveal all
the awful things, but we want to get
some information out there. And uh you
know what's interesting about the timing
of that is simultaneously as these
rumors start to appear in the journals,
Valet and his colleagues are talking
about this idea that there might be
something coming that there's something
on its way and that it could potentially
be concerning or harmful. There's this
urgency and these are the ORSAP
scientists by the way. So these were
people who worked in the government on a
big program that was funded through DIA
using big low aerospace investigating
the phenomenon. And the the ORSAT
program looked at 260,000 different
cases with seven levels of analysis is
probably the biggest study of UFO data
ever. And one of the conclusions that
Valet hints at two or three times in the
journals is that, you know, an
existential threat may have been
detected. And what that is, he doesn't
go any deeper into it. I don't know if
it's because he doesn't want to or he
can't.
And it doesn't mean we have to believe
that, by the way. But, you know, it's
very interesting that Valet, who is, I
think, generally quite skeptical about,
you know, the modern disclosure
movement, which has involved claims that
something's coming, releases his
journals in a way that validates this.
>> And he would have had time to remove
that if he if he changed his mind about,
you know, all of that. So, in terms of
that, I think there is some urgency,
whatever that is. Okay, I don't know
what I made a whole video about like 20
different explanations it could be. But
then that then leads to the Obama
administration basically saying, "Look,
we need to try and get information out
in some degree." I think those two
things could be connected, but I think
Dong was already in the orbit of those
conversations because he'd been on coast
to coast with George Knap
>> 2011
>> and he's one of the biggest celebrities
they'd had on there who was talking
about doing things for disclosure.
>> He's in that orbit. the OSAP scientists
received these rumors about stuff coming
out of the White House. And then you've
got George Knap who's in that orbit
who's connected to the long. I don't
think it's out of the question. He may
have heard like now's a pretty good time
for the project you're doing like 2013
kind of time.
>> So I I think there's a there's a genuine
reason there's all of this um with with
Dong maybe already knowing and that
driving him to be quite so as ambitious
as he was. But I also think there's
another dynamic here which funnily
enough connects back to the Collins
elite thing which is that you know there
have been presidents who have been on
the inside of the UFO information at
least it seems that way. The research
I've done recently Nixon, Carter,
Reagan, Bush all seem to have received
briefings. The moment you get to Clinton
I think it's pretty demonstrable he
didn't and he had to fight to try and
get information and he he used all of
his resources and still couldn't get
what he wanted. And um you know I wonder
whether Obama may have had a somewhat
similar experience. I don't know. But
you know Ross Koulart recently came out
and talked about how there sometimes
seems to be a contrast between
Republican presidents getting
information and Democrat presidents not.
You don't have to take everything Ross
Koultart says as gospel, right? But it's
an interesting thought experiment. Why
might that be the case? Why is it that
the UFO data may be dangerous in the
hands of people who are outsiders? Okay,
so Clinton and uh Obama coming into
office really weren't connected to the
establishment of the United States. They
really were in many ways outsiders who'd
started to move inside. You know,
Clinton attended a Bilderberg meeting
once before he was elected. So that's
fine. But that's very different to
Reagan, to Nixon, and to all of these
the Bush family.
>> I don't know. No, I would think I think
of Nixon as kind of an outsider. Really?
>> Yeah. From Whittier, California. Always
had a chip on his shoulder. Was wanted
to do force reduction in the CIA who was
always against him and was ousted, I
think, in a very artificial way.
>> Oh, that's interesting. Okay.
>> Reagan I could see a little bit more.
George HW Bush for sure, insider. No
doubt about that. Um, the Clinton thing
is really interesting because he was
interested in UFOs I believe and I think
he spoke with Ron Pandalfi who is we got
to talk very interesting guy uh who was
I think head of the CIA's weird desk
>> and Ron Pandalfi told Clinton he should
get briefed by a guy named Bruce McCabe.
Yeah.
>> Who had written about a book about UFOs
and the FBI was a longtime civilian
researcher. And so what's interesting
about that dynamic is you're getting a
guy in the open-source world to brief a
president on UFOs.
>> Uh which is very strange.
>> Yeah, it is very strange. Yeah, that's
one of the most I mean it was one of the
reasons I ended up looking into
Pandolfie in a big way was I was
mystified by the president of the United
States is trying to get UFO information.
And I mean if you really look at the
Clinton story, he really is like he uses
all of his different people, every angle
to go and investigate this. and Lawrence
Rockefeller uh is very close with the
Clintons and trying to get them to do
disclosure, get them more interested
constantly and yeah, that was a thing.
>> Huge initiative there and most people
don't even realize that this is like
history, you know, it's documented.
>> There's a photo of Hillary Clinton and I
think she's at Camp David and she's
holding a book and it's a book by uh
University of Arizona physicist Paul
Davies and the book is titled Are We
Alone? Yeah, she's clearly exploring
this stuff.
>> Yeah, she was interested early, I think.
And there's there's evidence during the
original Clinton administration, she
might have been trying to open doors as
well. Uh, but in terms of the Pandalfi
thing, essentially Clinton science
adviser is trying to get a briefing and
what happens is that goes to the place
in the CIA where there is UFO
information. It's called the weird desk.
It's uh it's a colloquial term for a
function which has moved around many
times. And uh at that point, a guy
called Dr. Ronald Pandulfi was was
running the weird desk and um so Bruce
McAfee relays the story like you said
he's this Navy physicist incredibly
bright guy who's obviously done
phenomenal research and he gets a call
from Pandulfi basically saying look I
need you to go in and give give the
lecture you gave to the CIA ones I want
you to give it to uh the science adviser
and he's like uh well I need time to
prepare and make sure I've got all this
and he's like thinking maybe I got two
weeks to get everything together he's
like it's tomorrow 8 in the morning and
So Clinton's science adviser doesn't
even get the CIA guy on UFOs to come in.
He sends not even one of his like lower
people, a civilian researcher in with
almost no time to prepare. And there's a
guy called William Nepal who uh I think
had closer interactions with Pandalfi at
this time and he suggested that you know
really they just wanted to push this
away. They didn't want to have to
confront what was going on with Clinton.
To me, I see a pattern there, which is
the former few administrations had been
actually stuffed full of quite religious
people. Some of these Collins elite
tights figures, we talked about the
family. There's also the Knights of
Malta and they're connected to a broader
establishment that goes back to the OSS,
the Office of Strategic Services and
World War II.
>> There's a thread through all of those
administrations of a similar mill of
people. You got Clinton comes in, he's
just this this guy, you know, [laughter]
and uh he wants the information and it's
shut down by Dr. Pandulfi, who by the
way, his uncle Louis Pendalfy was a
founding member of the OSS
>> really. Well, according to Jack Sarati,
so you know, take take the information
as you please. But there's an interview
with Danny Jones where he kind of goes
off on talking about Pandora in detail
and that was uh yeah, it's very
interesting. Um, so anyway, that that
fascinated me because if there's an
individual who can basically say no to
the president, who is he? And uh, you
know, he appears everywhere in UFO law
and he's uh, he's an interesting guy.
>> It's fascinating. Yeah. And then you
have Obama and I who knows to what
extent Obama was actually briefed on the
subject, but he seems interested. I
mean, he's producing this Betty and
Barney Hill documentary. M
>> um he you know it seems like is slow
dripping out information about UFOs and
testing the waters where I think on
James Cordon he goes there are things in
our sky that you know we can't identify
and we don't know what they are and then
you know this recent podcast he sort of
provoked Trump in many ways and said you
know it's not like they're you know
aliens are real but like how do you know
that sir you know the the the
interviewer never followed up on that um
but he said they are real, which again,
I don't know what he's going off of
there. And then he goes on to talk
about, you know, Area 51 and how that,
you know, that's a myth. The the idea
that we have them like, you know,
chained up in the basement or whatever.
>> What's so interesting about that is
Clinton said exactly the same thing.
What a weird thing to zero in on. They
both said, "Yeah, there's nothing
underground under Area 51." It's like,
if I'm asked about UFOs, there's a
thousand things I could mention in the
30 secondond snippet I'm going to give
you.
>> Why?
>> Thou doth protest too much. Yeah. little
[laughter]
strange and then afterwards it was so
clearly uh this litmus test. It was like
this like let's see how the public
reacts because he then walked it back
and was like you know really I you know
I don't I don't know anything you don't
know you know I just think that it was
like you know some firmy paradox thing
given the amount of you know solar
systems you know there's the likelihood
or whatever
>> general that to me spells the fact that
like he phrased it the way he did
deliberately to begin with the whole
thing was staged with this very friendly
you know very left-wing interviewer uh
who who who loved Obama.
>> Mhm.
>> So, and it was this rapidfire
questioning thing and the guy just like
moved on after that.
>> All those questions are always planned.
>> They totally
>> So, like what And then by the way,
Obama's uh CIA director uh you know,
Brennan and his uh director of national
intelligence, James Clapper, are showing
up in a movie
>> and they are tacitly endorsing the idea
that not only have we, you know, are
UFOs real? Yeah. But we've had tracking
programs at Area 51, which James Clapper
personally talked about, helped set up,
and then uh are tacitly endorsing the
idea that we've had a legacy program
doing crash retrieval operations and,
you know, uh reverse engineering for
decades, multigenerational.
>> Yeah.
>> So, yeah.
>> Do you think maybe Obama knows a thing
or two about this whole thing? Did you
see the John Greenwald thing where he
filed a foyer and he got information
back which indicated I can't remember if
it's 3,000 or I think it might have been
30,000 references in Obama's documents
in his presidency to like UFOs, UAP,
ORAP, ATIP, etc. Like all those things.
>> So, you know, if you count that in a
video I did, I I tried to figure out how
many references you'd need every day of
his administration to make that number.
I mean, it seems as though there was a
dialogue going on based on those
figures. And then you also have um
Podesta and Clinton working at the
administration at different points and
then like Valet says, whispers coming
out of the White House. So what we see
with Hillary Clinton and John Podesta in
2016, their weird behavior absolutely
must track back to to his Oval Office
and his administration. This brings up
some really important questions around
what exists as far as UFO programs
because the things that are talked about
openly at this point are in that 2017
New York Times article. They're what
Obama was, you know, talking about and
investigating. It's what Harry Reid set
up from 2007 to 2012. this OAP program
which then turned into sort of this ATIP
overhang program which seemed a lot
slimmer and unclear what was going on
there. Um but uh those those are
discussed constantly as like we have
real UFO programs, you know, Kona Blue
and this idea that we were transferring
assets between Loheed Martin who had UFO
material to Bigalow Aerospace, but the
budgets associated with these programs
are on the order of, you know, it's 20,
we're talking about $22 million. A
single F35 fighter jet is $85 million. a
a B2 stealth bomber is over a billion
dollars. A single B2 stealth bomber. So,
you're telling me that we have uh uh you
know, hulls of a craft that we can fly,
could go warp speed, maybe we can even
you know uh uh drop payloads with these
things, which is so dystopian to even
think about, but like if you're thinking
with a military-industrial complex hat
on, you have to think that. And you're
put you're putting $22 million against
that. The the the reverse engineering of
that makes zero sense. Yeah.
>> So then you have this idea of like what
David Grush may or may not have bumped
into this like this legacy program this
like you know probably hundreds of
billions if not trillions of dollars
going into actually reverse engineering
this stuff. And then what's so weird is
like the you know you do have people
coming out here and there saying I saw a
thing and I but you only have one Bob
Lazar a guy who actually you know at S4
in 1989 said he worked on the craft
itself.
>> So you have this like perfectly locked
down program that somehow has absurd you
know budget you know line items attached
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Do you have a base case of what is going
on inside the government here?
>> Oh my god. No, I have no idea.
>> No, I mean it's it's a total mystery
what's really going on. There's so much
disinformation as well which makes it
impossible to navigate all of this. Um,
so once you get beyond the data that
that we can see that you've just listed,
I mean, what can you say? I I think it's
there are plenty of people who've come
out and and said that we have craft. It
seems to be just sinking into our
collective consciousness at this point
that we've got some things and we've
been trying to figure out what they are,
but we haven't necessarily got that far.
Some people say that we have. Um, that's
about as far as we get, you know, before
the information starts to run dry. So I
I I
um I'm definitely convinced there's
something there definitely. But in terms
of things I could be high confidence
about, they're very limited.
>> Yeah, I feel the same way. I I have uh
you know uh you know my editors here
with me and we we both went to Aztec,
New Mexico to investigate the crash
there.
>> Awesome.
>> And I can't speak for him, but I I came
out, you know, kind of skeptical. I came
in skeptical
>> and I came out pretty sure that there
was a crash there
>> because I I really for a long time being
into UFO stuff, I thought, you know,
there was a conflation maybe going on
between kind of some anti-gravity
lineage of, you know, some exotic
propulsion that maybe uh was created in
Nazi Germany or, you know, maybe World
War II and then, you know, you develop
it or whatever and then you conflate it
with these alien things and like and
maybe that is going on. I don't know.
Yeah. But you know I wasn't sure about
the crashes and I wasn't sure about a
reverse engineering you know program and
after investigating a few of these
crashes I think the crashes are just
real and then and then so if the crashes
were then you know if if there's US air
force and CIA involvement which like
there always seems to be as in the case
of Argginia even in Brazil
>> then like there has to be reverse
engineering going on of those pieces
>> of course
>> and then the weird thing is you have Jim
Latsky coming out you know who this DIA
rocket scientist involved in OSAP and
he's now writing about this stuff and he
writes about it like it's some platonic
puzzle like it's more of like a mystical
object than it is something you'd ever
even put throw physicists against and
you have the idea you know Eric Davis
saying there were no physicists on the
program so maybe like
>> the idea that there are crash retrievals
which is you know at this point that
that's like sort of p in these sort
circle. I mean, age of disclosure,
discussing this stuff openly.
>> So then you have to ask like what is the
underlying thing? If if that's the tip
of the iceberg, the underlying thing has
to be much weirder
>> than that.
>> And so I I get into like, okay, maybe
these are like mystical maybe these are
objects that are far stranger than like
physics and engineering could ever, you
know, explain. But I don't I don't know.
>> Do you think that they're part of a
large system? like like maybe the
majority of what we interact with is
part of a single system which is kind of
artificial intelligence.
>> I I I don't know but I guess yeah I'm
sympathetic to ideas like that that were
in some sort of control system or
something and uh these might be vonoman
replicator envoys or something of some
like larger intelligence. So they're
they are just like the tip of the spear.
And even gray aliens, which seem to have
this very robotic droid-like kind of
mandate where they show up and they do
not fear, do not fear. Then they insert
the thing and they kind of subdue you or
whatever.
>> Like all of that feels somewhat
automated. Yeah. And if there are
crashes, you say, "Oh, why are there so
why would they fly from light years away
just to crash or whatever? They're so
advanced." Well, maybe this is just
their earth homeostasis kit and maybe
they're, you know, kind of disposable.
So, I I am sympathetic to ideas like
that,
>> but then we even the valet stuff, as
much I think he's this like incredible
godfather and he shifts your perspective
in this super healthy way, but he's so
limited. He's so limited. I mean, it's
like what does that mean? AI system, AI
control system. I mean, he uses
intermittent reinforcement maybe because
that was the invogue psychology at the
time. Who the knows? Who knows? I don't
know.
>> Yeah. What do you think?
>> Well, I mean, I think at the very least
we should focus there because he 260,000
cases, like I said, the Capella database
that he made
>> and the levels of analysis that he did.
>> Yeah, you're right. I mean, what he's
what he's sharing is very limited. I
wonder what else is under there. And we
should be focusing our attention there.
like the fact that this database exists
with that level of analysis and we're
all out here the other day uh Anna
Paulina Luna who's done phenomenal stuff
for this progress this conversation you
she tweeted out read the book of Enoch
and I'm thinking I'm just like no this
isn't where we need to start we've got
to start with the data and what it says
and the book of Enoch should be one of
the cases in the database not not how we
interpret it. Um, so I I do think even
though what he's saying may be somewhat
cryptic, our focus should be on that
huge source of data and what's under
there. And maybe some of it is very woo.
Maybe there's some consistency to the
woo. Maybe maybe the woo is constantly a
reflection of who we are and the
consciousness that we bring to it. Which
is another thing that valet talks about
actually is this idea that the UFO isn't
designed to carry beings from place A to
place B, but it's designed to interface
with our mind and to take the imagery we
have in here and to kind of like a
dream, right? You know, you see
everything throughout your day. You have
these experiences. You go to sleep and
you mix the experience you just had with
your deep subconscious thought into this
whole new thing. That function exists
and billions of people use it every
single night. What if the UFO does that?
And so when we interact with it, we're
engaging with the weird robotic beings
and this system which kind of seems
weird, but with the right person, it can
get in here and change the way you
perceive it completely. Well, I think I
think that is the case, but then you
again you have to employ this radical
cartisian doubt of like what is it
intending to do to you? And if it can do
that in the form of an experience, it
could do that in the form of a data set
that it's manufacturing itself as well.
>> So science is really well set up to
study lower level biological systems,
you know, like I I can study an ant or,
you know, or or just inanimate material
very easily. But like if if I am the ant
on the arm of a human being and you're
using your own version of science as the
ant like you know we're just like you
know when we're you have these summoning
programs of UFOs like Skywatcher is this
kind of modern version of this or
whatever but it seems like we've been
doing this kind of in you know special
access programs for a while like we're
just what if we're just like raccoons
chewing on the power cables and then the
humans show up and they go stop chewing
on those power cables and then they shut
down your sensors and then you're like,
but like how will the raccoons ever
understand what the humans want or why
they're showing up when you do a thing
when they you do a little nuclear
baiting or whatever, you know? So, it's
you end up with these like really hard
epistemic impasses.
>> Yeah. you know
>> and then and then and then the meta meta
thing would be the brains scrambling of
the data that you're receiving and of
these programs that like happens in the
individual allows you to grow and then
that growing allows you to make like a
better connection your interface and
your processing and your measurement
system gets better
>> and then you get to interface more in a
way that like actually is comprehensible
to you with these beings but I don't
know I it's it's very complic It brings
me back to what you said earlier about
this idea. What if the purpose isn't to
have disclosure but instead to have some
sort of personal evolution experience
through interacting with these things
because then you would understand the
system would make your science futile.
It would make it impossible for you to
get this big objective theory which we
all want because of the way we currently
operate as a society. What if the next
stage of human evolution isn't about
that kind of mindset about how we
approach things? So go, you know, it's a
big theory, but it's interesting to
consider whether or not it's attempting
to force us away from our traditional
analyses.
>> I think it is. I think the observer
observed dichotomy is breaking down. I
think the idea of um you know, yeah,
like you said, sort of some objective
theory of everything is breaking down.
Like you're going to see like a sort of
maybe not infinite but somewhat
fracturing of reality and theories when
it comes to this stuff. I think it
breaks our prior epistemics. I think
it's an epistemological revolution. It's
not a scientific revolution. Yeah.
>> So, it's like it's deeper than just
like, you know, oh, quantum physics. I
think it's I think it's more than that.
>> Yeah.
>> What do you think about the human
technology angle? You kind of touched on
it there with the anti-gravity stuff
from the Nazis
>> and how it makes I think one of the
things people really struggle with is
trying to grapple with can both of those
things be true. Can we be engaging with
this huge phenomenon whilst also human
beings may have created technology that
could imitate it which that's again
something valet talks about which is
very very interesting.
>> Yeah, you know and in secret machines
and you know Tom Dong's book talks about
this as well
human craft that is derivative of and
even if you talk to Bob Lazar and you go
deep enough with him it's not really
reverse engineering it's like parallel
engineering. It's not figuring out
exactly how the thing was made. It's
figuring out how to recreate the thing
with prosaic human means. And so then
you have to ask, was the thing dropped
or donated as a gift or something to
accelerate human evolution or you know
to create science that was that is
derivative of or inspired by uh the
thing. And you know, for that you have
to go off of kind of, you know, read the
tea leaves on people like Philip Corso
>> or, you know, I'm obsessed with, you
know, Thomas Towns and Brown and his
anti-gravity research. Um, and it seems
like he was inspired by quote unquote
space brothers. He actually engaged in a
crash retrieval operation in
>> Towns and Brown did.
>> Yes. Wow.
>> In 1958 in Hartford, Connecticut that
Michael Swords documents. Fascinating.
Yeah. And then he goes to um MoonWa,
Project Moonwatch, which was this
satellite viewing operation. And they
were tied in actually with Blue Book at
the time. And Robert Friend and Jay
Allen Heinik uh have a piece of this
crash at Hartford, Connecticut. And
Towns and Brown flashes his credentials.
I think he was very spooky. And uh he
was like, I'm I'm taking this material.
[laughter]
>> So it's really crazy cuz I you assume
that
>> What year was that that he was able to
do that?
>> 58.
>> Wow. So you assume that towns and brown
is an explanation or you know away from
it's it's a rationalization of why we're
seeing these things in the sky because
it's just deep black military SR71
modern equivalent easy option and then
you get into Towns and Brown's life and
it's like no he's claimed he was like
kind of communicating with aliens half
the time like Agnu Bonson who was
funding him was really trippy and seemed
like he was in contact with stuff. Um,
so it's again it's a very complicated
sort of you end up always with a yes and
sort of answer you know
>> and even going back to the Nazis right
where people like to say they were the
ones who generated this technology but
you documented in one of your videos who
was the individual who said that we had
help from what was his name
>> uh Herman Oberth
>> right
>> so Herman Oberth is the um godfather of
you know German rocketry and Wernon
Broad's mentor and there's even a audio
of him talking about UFOs and he said he
they were aided and had help and I was
just in Japan actually and there's a guy
named Takano Joseen and he met Herman
Ober and they discussed UFOs openly and
so yeah he was very interested in UFOs.
>> Did he say anything else about UFOs?
>> Dr. Oberth
but Dr. Oberth truly respected
the beings actually riding in UFOs. It's
really just wild. And you you did an
amazing video on uh Nazi uh UFO like
technology as well. And you talk about
Richard Mita. You want want to talk
about that?
>> Yeah, I mean all those different stories
from the Nazi era. Very very
interesting. And it's one of these cases
where it's very hard to say that there's
no smoke without fire. I can't remember
all the names. You've got meter,
Shrivever, Malutoo. Um there's like four
or five other individuals who all claim
to have worked on what appeared to be
multiple different attempts to build
discshaped craft and uh with with
varying degrees of success. I think we
often end up in an either or about the
Nazis and the technology and they say
well if they developed it why didn't
they use it during the war therefore it
can't have happened whereas I think a
middle ground is more interesting that
they were experimenting with making
these for whatever reason we can get
into that later why they may have been
inspired and some of them may have been
somewhat interesting and half successful
by the time the war was closing out
>> it's fascinating the video you made it's
amazing and it shows you know Mita in 52
gives this uh interview to this French
paper and he says if you see UFOs in the
sky they're probably the ones that I
designed and was built by you know the
Habber project and you know um uh SCOD
works under Hansler
>> and you have Rudolph Shrivever and I
think you know saying that in 1944 we
finally flew this craft and it it rose
to you know 40,000 ft in a few minutes.
Mhm.
>> I think you even have an apocryphal
story where Paul Melon, who's one, you
know, founders of the CIA, his grandson,
uh, is a guy named John Warner IV. Yeah.
>> And he talks about, he said he's on his
third martini with Paul Melon. And uh
Paul Melon tells him that he and Allan
Dulles were on this like, you know, tech
retrieval operation deep in, you know,
post World War II, you know, Nazi
Germany or maybe it was like 44 45
>> and they're saying that they're standing
at top this huge saucer like UFO uh in
Czechoslovakia by the way, which is
Pilzen, which is where go to works took
place and you talk about in this video,
which is an amazing video, everybody
should watch it. Um, for whatever
reason, the US was less interested in
Berlin than they were in going to
Pilzen, which is where this secret
weapons program was housed for Nazi
Germany.
>> I think what's really fascinating is
there was this rush obviously at the end
of the war and you see General Patton's
army arrive and they steamroll, like you
said, to Pilson before going to Berlin,
which is very interesting. What's more
fascinating to me is the fact that
nearly a year earlier, the Nazis had
planned to get out of Europe and to take
all of their sensitive stuff. So, we go
in there, we pick up like the Horton
Brothers thing, and who was the guy who
made the reverse impeller?
>> Victor Shawberger.
>> Shelber. I always forget his name,
right? We got some Shaburgger stuff. And
there's this idea that the Soviets got
maybe more than they should have got and
we got what we got and we divided up the
spoils. But in reality, there may have
been a third part to this, which is the
mass evacuation of technology and people
and gold and money starting in well
1943, but certainly 1944 with the Maison
Rouge meeting. I think that is really
really important and actually this ties
into in Dong's fiction book secret
machines he talks about the Maynard
Consortium. Uh for those who don't know
Dong co-authored some fiction books with
AJ Hartley and the idea was can we tell
some really sensitive stuff about
history and obscure it as fiction. Jim
Semi van who was one of the advisers for
to the stars academy and I think he's a
senior executive service like just two
people under the CIA director when he
was working there so very very senior
and he says that book's very very
interesting and I can't remember who it
was he was being interviewed by maybe
James Iendi said can you tell us what it
is that's interesting about the book and
he says no I'm not going to tell you but
if you read it the mayard consortion is
very interesting because it's this
private organization which seems to have
a handle not simply on the UFO issue but
a huge huge amount of power
geopolitically as well. A lot of people
have been trying to figure out what the
Maynard Consortium is. I think I have an
answer by the way which I can share and
it ties into what happened at the end of
the war. So you you want to go in for a
long one on this?
>> I want to hear because I that that's
come up a bunch for me and I'm
fascinated by it and I do think Secret
Machines hit a lot of truth in fiction
and it was inspired by conversations
with General Neil McCassen who by the
way is now missing which is crazy. he
went
>> missing uh you know from his home in New
Mexico
>> days after Trump announced that there
was going to be some sort of disclosure
>> UFO disclosure and you have a guy who is
the sole source or not the sole source
one of the few sources for uh kind of
modern disclosure and a lot of you know
what came out of you know Tom Delong's
work and you know he's this really high
up general and if if you wanted
disclosure and you were part of the
current admin you'd immediately hit him
up
>> and then he's just like,
>> you know, missing without a trace
>> in a super sophisticated way. Leaves his
phone behind. Everything that you could
use to track him,
>> you know, is is just, you know, left
behind and he takes a gun.
>> Very strange.
>> It's very strange. Um, but in Secret
Machines, Tom Delong's book, he writes
about the Maynard Consortium, and it's
this like
>> Ben Rich also, who is the, you know,
skunk works guy, you know, in the in the
'90s, president of Skunkworks, who is
responsible for, you know, um, the the
SR71 and or sorry, he was responsible
for modern stealth aircraft. He writes
about an international corporate board
of directors that deals with the UFO
issue. Uh-huh.
>> And then Towns and Brown also runs into
this sort of, you know, the Caroline
group, this international group of
industrialists that seem to
>> suck up all of the exotic tech.
>> And so, and then you have Secret
Machines, the Maynard Consortium, which
is described very similarly to those two
things. What is the [clears throat]
Maynard Consortium?
>> Yeah. Well, I think I think there's a
business that fits the description
really well, which we don't talk about
very much. But to kind of build the
picture of this, I'll I'll give you a
bit of a backdrop. So, let's go back to
the Maison Rouge meeting. Okay, so this
is 1944, I think August 10th, sometime
around there. The Nazis know they're
going to lose the war. So, at this
point, I think they've they've had the
D-Day invasions. There's been
Stalingrad. It's not going well. So,
Martin Borman assembles all the leaders
of industry into this meeting in Paris.
Very secret meeting. They sweep the
rooms to make sure no one can hear what
they're going to talk about and uh
basically plan the mass evacuation of
German industry technology people. And
based on documentation that Peter
Leventend has seen, they were
successful. So there's a state
department document which talks about
how this was in 1945. They'd already
realized hundreds of new companies have
been set up in Nicaragua and Argentina
and it's all connected to these Nazi
industrialists. So it really happened.
So the question is why was that
possible? Right? We're at war with these
people. We have all these intelligence
agencies operating who had information
about this. So how did they get away
with it? The people who were at that
meeting were like you said wealthy
industrialists many of whom had
relationships with American and UK
industrialists as well. So you have the
likes of uh Herman Schmidt I think was
the IG Farbin guy. You have the
representatives of Ford and uh Standard
Oil the German subdivisions their heads
were at that meeting as well. And you
have people from this bank of
international settlements which is this
weird transnational bank as well. The
important thing and also um Schroeda so
Baron von Schroeder one of his people
was there. All of those people for 20
years up to this point had had a deep
relationship with the Rockefellers with
the Morgans with Hamro in the United
Kingdom. All of these like financial
giants and oil giants had been working
together. IG Farbin and Standard Oil had
come to an arrangement where they would
have mutual monopolies before the war.
So Standard Oil would dominate oil
across both sides of the Atlantic. IG
farmer would do the petrochemical side.
And you had uh agreements between
Rockefeller starting a company with the
Schroeders. So Rockefeller, Schroeda and
uh and company. All of this was
happening in the 30s. They also had
already partnered on an initiative which
I think blows my mind to realize this
was historical. Have you heard of the
business plot? Oh yeah. Um Schmemedley
Butler.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. They were trying to take out FDR.
>> Yeah. FDR came into government, had his
plans for like the New Deal and so this
group of transnational finance people,
Morgan, Dupont, all of these people and
with support and encouragement from
their German counterparts, planned this
plot. It sounds like fiction, but they
were going to take this this general who
they had a conversation with. They said,
"Look, we want you to do this. They're
going to raise an army of like 500,000
people and march to Washington and
forcefully remove the president from
office. And uh it's true. It's it's
history. So these German industrialists
and the West industrialists, they were
working together. And even as the war
began, that was happening.
>> The Union Bank was funding the Nazis.
>> Which one's the Union Bank?
>> Um they I think Prescott Bush was the,
you know, president of the Union Bank.
And then Dulles was, you know, helping
out with, you know, some Nazi financing
World War II. Yeah.
>> My goodness.
>> Hanging out in Switzerland and
>> he was connected to nearly every single
like German Nazi titan of industry.
>> Yeah. And you of course Ford was, you
know, very tied in.
>> Well, the wild thing with Ford was when
the UK was trying to get into the war,
uh, they needed to create, um, engines
for their jets, for their for their
fighter pilots. And, uh, Ford said, "No,
we're not going to do that. we're
prioritizing the the trunks for Nazi
Germany. This is the dynamic that was
going on.
>> And FDR knew this and he he said in a in
a conversation, a letter that he wrote
that the financial interests had owned
America since the time of Andrew
Jackson.
>> He was very aware that these people had
tried to remove him, but they had huge
amounts of power. So the point here is
those industrialists who meet in the
Maison Rouge in 1944, they're the same
people who have these relationships with
all of these people. So the
Rockefellers, all of these big business
people can't afford for Nazi industry to
fall through. They're highly invested in
it through subsidiaries, through Swiss
bank accounts. That entire industry
which is there, which is under threat,
needs to be evacuated to protect their
business interests as a baseline, let
alone taking advantage of any
technological advances which have
happened. So I I think that's very very
important. But there's another dynamic
here which I I find shocking just to say
it out loud. You ask yourself, well, if
that was happening, what about the
intelligence agencies who would surely
be monitoring this situation? But who is
running the intelligence agencies in
wartime Europe? You know, you just
mentioned Dulles, right? So, you've got
the Office of Strategic Services, which
is run by Donovan with Dulles. Donovan's
also a Wall Street lawyer. People don't
know there was also another American
intelligence agency dedicated to South
America, which is the Office for the
Coordination of Interamerican Affairs.
And you ask yourself, well, who would be
the right person to run a vast
intelligence agency for South America?
Just turns out to be Nelson Rockefeller.
Okay. Meanwhile, you've got the British
Security Coordination, which is run by
William Stevenson, who's a very
interesting individual. Uh, he has his
offices in Rockefeller Plaza, right next
to the OSS, and Nelson Rockefeller's
there, too. And then you've got the
special operations executive in the
United Kingdom. Again, who would be the
best person to run this highly sensitive
intelligence network? It turns out to be
one of the directors of the Bank of
England, Hamrose. So what you've got
here is a situation where these finance
and industrialists are in bed together
before the war. During the war, they
keep trading and the very people who
should be keeping their eyes on them are
running the intelligence networks which
are going to enable them to evacuate all
of this technology. Now that backdrop is
very important because after the war all
those intelligence agencies basically
get shut down, reintegrated into
different places. So what are those
people going to do with all the
relationships that they've developed?
Well, there is an organization which was
created initially in 1945 and then
rebranded in 47. It's called the World
Commerce Corporation. You you you'll see
it now if you hear that and you go back
to Lenda, you go back to different
books, you'll see it pop up. It is the
most bland sounding organization very
much like the Maynard Consortium, right?
Which was by the way in the book founded
in the late 40s just like this was. So
what is the World Commerce Corporation?
Well, it's founded in Panama to obscure
its foundations. On the board, Donovan,
Stephvenson, Hamrose, you've got Dulles
doing the legal council. There's a whole
bunch of other high-powered UK people,
loads of OSS people who are out of work.
And there's also connections to
organized crime, which we can talk about
in a minute, and the Nazi underground,
too. This organization had between 250
and 500 subsidiaries after a couple of
years. [sighs] So if you look at the
Maynard Consortium, one of the big parts
of the plot there is that all of its
finances and its operations are obscured
by these companies which appear and
disappear. And that's exactly what you
get with the World Commerce Corporation.
A lot of those companies can be tied
directly to the drug smuggling and arms
trafficking which people tend to say the
CIA did this which it it kind of did but
it was doing this through private
organizations which all route back to
the World Commerce Corporation. So this
is a very interesting organization which
appears right after the war and
Rockefeller Morgan and all these people
are also a part of this too.
>> Whoa. Fascinating.
>> So fascinating. Interesting. Mhm.
>> Do we have any
evidence that they had anything to do
with UFOs or it just sounds exactly like
the Maynard Consortium from a personnel
perspective?
>> From a personnel perspective. Yes. And I
think you know what's interesting is in
the novel the connection to UFOs is kind
of like pretty obscure. Anyway,
>> in this case I think you know what we've
got to look at is that Maison Rouge
meeting and whatever the best technology
was that was taken out of Nazi Germany
um would have been relocated somewhere
else under the opaces of these
intelligence people who had that unique
information right so these are the
people with the relationships before the
war during and afterwards with the
unique insights and one of the people I
think it was Tom Hill he was one of the
UK members of WCC he said the goal was
to take advantage of the relationships
we'd accured during the war and uh Peter
Leander when he briefly touches on it he
says the objective was to facilitate
trade between South America and Germany
okay that's a very interesting dynamic
to have another guy Peter Peter Dale
Scott is he the guy who writes about JFK
>> stayed and yeah invented the term deep
state
>> right there you go the right guy so he
describes it as a private intelligence
agency for people like the Nelson um
like like the Rockefellers finance is
>> so very very interesting descriptions
from people who look into this. And
what's fascinating is the the bulk of
the information I got from this was from
a forum online. I mean, it's amazing
what some of these people will dig up on
forums. They were investigating the
World Commerce Corporation purely
through the lens of the Kennedy
assassination.
>> They weren't looking at this in terms of
UFOs, but for them, this organization
was critical to that nexus.
So to to to be to be very clear here
about the UFO thing, the reason I'm
interested is not just because of Secret
Machines, but also because of Jacqu
Valet's Messengers of Deception. You
might think it's the only book I've ever
read, but it had a huge impact on me.
And when he's speaking with this guy,
Major Murphy, this is one of his key
sources in the book. We don't know the
guy's real name, some sort of general
presumably.
He's talking with valet about what if
it's possible that people created flying
sauces during the war and he points to
1943 and he says you know what if
someone was experimenting with this
technology it turns out its real
advantage wasn't its flight capabilities
but its psychotronic effect and um he
suggests that uh it's not I mean Valet
then butts in basically and says um are
you seriously suggesting that the Nazis
are behind the UFO phenomenon and his
response is why are you talking about
the Nazis, other people became involved.
Okay. So the the the implication here is
that somehow this technology ended up
getting worked on by other people and
wherever that was the really interesting
stuff presumably got evacuated out and
this private organization appears with
huge numbers of subsidiaries and
remember all their shell companies the
German set up presumably could be
interlocking through all of that
obscurity with a an emphasis on trade
relationships with South America. So,
you know, I can't peer beneath the
covers there, but I think that's very
interesting.
>> It's fascinating. Was um the Royal
Prince of Likenstein involved in the
World Commerce Consortium?
>> Not from what I've seen.
>> World, was it World Commerce?
>> This is why it's such a boring name.
World Commerce Corporation.
>> World Commerce Corporation.
>> By the way, they also created a World
Banking Corporation, a World Finance
Corporation, a a banking world
corporation. I mean, like, yeah, this is
when you dig into this stuff, it's
almost impossible to dig through all
these shell compan generic shell
companies that, you know, are meant to
not be they're meant to be forgotten
like I just did in this conversation.
>> Exactly. [laughter]
I'm falling prey to it. Yeah. I mean,
you also have a lot of interesting
connections between some of these old
families that you're mentioning as part
of the WCC, let's just call it that. Um,
and UFOs. So like uh Rockefeller for
example, you know, Detev Bronc was the
president of the Rockefeller Foundation.
He was rumored to be the Yeah.
president. He was rumored to be on the
Majestic 12, rumored to do all the early
alien autopsies. Uh president of the
medical school at John's Hopkins, which
obviously has a lot of kind of intel
agency uh uh ties. Uh William Stevenson
was very close with Thomas Towns and
Brown. In fact, when Thomas Townsen
Brown did a a tech retrieval mission in
behind enemy lines in World War II,
there's a telegram uh from William
Stevenson to Townsen's wife, Josephine,
and he says, "Your husband is okay. You
know, we we have him. He's okay." And he
comes back and he recovers or whatever.
But he was extremely close with Town.
They they also went on these sort of uh
trips to the Bahamas on this yacht owned
by this guy Eldridge Reefs Johnson who
was um head of RCA, you know, Victor
Talking Machines Company. And they were
interested in really exotic technology.
If you read William Stevenson's um
biography, a man called Intrepid, he by
another guy named William Stevenson,
which is funny, spelled a little
differently. William Stevenson.
>> That confused me, by the way. I was
digging up William Stevenson. I thought
he'd written some of the books. Yeah.
>> Yeah. It's not an autobiography, but
it's Stevenson with a V wrote it for the
PH Stevenson. But um
>> we cover that.
>> Yeah. He the you know the the super spy
Stevenson was also very close with a guy
named Charles Proteius Steinmets who was
uh working for GE in Shenecti, New York
and was extremely interested in kind of
heterodox models for electromagnetism.
um you know what might be is described
today as extended electronamics which
people like Hal put off are very
interested in um so and then you have
Agnu Bonson who's funding all the top
theoretical physicists at the time but
also a lot of interesting uh you know
people like Towns and Brown literally
working on anti-gravity doing
anti-gravity experiments and he wrote a
book called the stars are too high and
it's a book about uh rogue
Nazi scientists who break off and
collaborate with American scientists and
create essentially man-made UFOs and
then stage an alien invasion. And he
dies a couple years later in a bizarre
plane crash, which to this day his
family thinks, you know, he was killed
essentially because the power lines were
put up right where, you know, he was
land right on the landing strip or
whatever. M
>> um so yeah and then you have Kissinger
probably tied in with UFO stuff as well.
William Steinman, you know, goes to um
>> the house of uh Eric Henry Wang, who ran
special projects at Wright Patterson,
and he meets with uh Wing's uh widow, uh
Maria Wing, and she's like, "Yes, my
husband did work on UFOs and his boss
was Henry Kissinger." And there are a
couple other I did a whole video essay
on Henry Kissinger, but there are a
couple of other things that make me
believe Kissinger might have been tied
in with the whole UFO thing. And uh
Kissinger was probably more beholden to
Nelson Rockefeller than he was to Nixon
throughout his tenure as Secretary of
State under Nixon.
>> Um so loose threads, but like
>> Oh, but they they keep overlapping.
>> They keep overlapping. And on on on the
the American scientists and Nazi
scientist thing, one of the fascinating
things with the World Commerce
Corporation is they have a a vice
president called Ricardo Seeker. I don't
know how you pronounce his second name,
but seeker seems to be that s
and um he was essentially I think a a
Spanish guy, Spanish spy during World
War II who is basically employed by the
OSS. And uh you know he he's he seems
interesting. He he seems kind of a
little bit dodgy, connected to organized
crime, all of this stuff. But he had uh
I think he had a a colleague or a friend
in Spain called Robert Rock. And it
turns out they lived in the same uh
apartment complex. So, Robert Rock is
writing um sort of travel journals and
occasionally mentions his adventures
with Ricardo Seeker and he talks about
how they are part of a secret society
which strides the world is the phrase he
uses.
>> Wow.
>> Describing himself Ricardo Seeker also
the oil magnate I think it's Jake
Hammon. What's fascinating here who
lives in the same building as Raw Kika?
Otto Scorzani. Whoa. Yeah. So they're
living there.
>> Tell tell people who Otto Scorzani is.
>> Well, he's a he's he's a famous Nazi
commando who I think had saved the life
of Mussolini. A big scar across his
face. And uh had relationships with some
of the highest echelons of Nazi power. I
think there's a a relationship his one
of his wives was very well connected
with Xiao Shack who was the head of the
Reich Bank and Bank of International
Settlements. I think so. He had
connections to this fraternity
transnational brotherhood thing
>> and and ironically I think went to South
America was this notoriously kind of
ruthless guy and and I think then
partnered up with MSAD after so he like
worked with the Israelis after being a
Nazi.
>> Yeah. Right. He like trained them on
some stuff. It's really confusing that
whole thing. Yeah. What's going on with
the the MSAD getting involved in it? But
there's another thing about this too. I
mean, firstly, Lender talks about how
Otto Scodzani is the public face of this
huge Nazi underground. He's the guy with
the relationships to whatever escaped
afterwards. Um, there's also a
fascinating entry from a lady called
Alen Griffith who briefly worked for the
World Commerce Corporation. She'd later
go on to become a countess. I don't know
why she she had that prefix eventually.
So, Griffith uh writes in in her
biography, in her journals, that when
she first worked for the World Commerce
Corporation, she was working for Frank
Ryan, the president, and they seem to be
doing, you know, it seemed to be like a
CIA front, but it was agreed it wasn't
really a CIA front. It was its own
thing. She described it as a precursor
to the Iran Contra situation, right? So,
basically drug smuggling, arm smuggling
across borders, using all of those uh
shell companies. And then she says it
was very different eight or nine years
after that because Otto Scorzani came in
and took over the operation and when he
did we suddenly got access to resources
and things I wasn't even aware of and at
some point she says I didn't even want
to know what was going on. So according
to her and by the way she was connected
to I think Nancy Reagan and a whole
bunch of elite people in the US. She was
basically saying the World Commerce
Corporation not only was it the
precursor to Iran Contra but eventually
Otaini took on a serious leadership
role. He wasn't just an obscure
connection after a few years. And I
think that raises questions about what
those operations may have been that they
were engaging in and what shadowy
underworld they may have been connected
to as well.
>> There are other mafia figures connected.
You've got papal aristocracy on the
board as well.
>> I mean, it's it's impossible to list all
the names here without going off.
>> Yeah.
>> But eventually it links to the Bahamas
with Thomas Towns and Brown and that
whole geographical location.
>> How does it link with the Bahamas? Yeah.
Well, um, if you read the novel Secret
Machines, again, the main art consortium
is like we described, founded in the
40s, has all of these shell companies,
but eventually in 1964, something
happens, right? So, it's very clear
there's this mysterious entity called
sweep.
>> Okay. And a lot of people have been
trying to figure out what sweep. We
figured out may not consortium, I think,
but people think sweep w
capital letters. People assume it must
be the swift organization, right?
society for worldwide interbank
financial transactions. The thing is
Dong's very clear. Sweep is obscure.
Okay, you're not going to be able to
figure out what it is. It's hardly
mentioned anywhere, but it involves all
this money from this huge underground
being funneled, hundreds of billions
being funneled about the time of 1964.
Now, I I haven't figured out what sweep
is, but some very interesting things
happen in 1964. Um, firstly, you've got
something called money wrecks. You heard
of this?
>> No. It sounds like some sort of a
child's conception of a of a game or
something, but it's a real thing
involving a guy called I think it's
Mikuel Syndona. Again, first name. I
haven't heard anyone pronounce it, so I
could have got that wrong. This guy had
worked with James Jesus Angleton, big
mob figure. And he was basically
responsible for helping the mafia move
their money without that being noticed
in covert ways. And eventually he became
extremely good at this. By 1964, the
mafia was basically saying, "Look, we
need you to launder all of our money. We
have too much of it." And so, he creates
something called Moneyrex. I only
stumbled across this a few days ago, so
the the the pieces are sketchy here, but
Moneyrex basically becomes connected.
It's this single entity that's connected
to 850 banks, and it's used to do the
world's biggest moneyaundering operation
ever. $200 billion according to the
author Paul Williams. And uh what's
fascinating is Sona as part of this
would acquire his own banks. Many of
those banks when he would acquire them
two or three people would then acquire
all the rest of the shares. One was the
Vatican bank. The other one was Charles
Hamro. So the finance year who ran the
special operations executive bank of
England director and a founding member
of the world commerce corporation. So,
and also bear in mind valet I think
claim, you know, in one of his novels he
says a lot of this might be traced back
to a private European bank from the
1800s.
>> Charles Hamrose bank would fit that very
well. Anyway, so you've got this huge
money rex thing which is suddenly able
to launder hundreds of billions of
dollars in 1964. It's exactly what Dong
describes in the book. The question is
where does that go? And this is where
it's it's tricky to figure it out, but a
lot of World Commerce Corporation
associated individuals would suddenly be
moving towards the Bahamas. Something
happened down there where a group of
people had done what was called the
Hawks Bill Creek Agreement. And they'd
purchased 50,000 acres of land from the
Bahamanian government, effectively
creating an autonomous state where they
had no laws, no one was overseeing them.
they could create as many shell
companies as they wanted at scale now
which is one of the things that they did
and as part of that they created this
thing called devco
de vce capital letters for for a little
while I was thinking is this sweep you
know five letters capital letters
>> I don't think it is but dev code becomes
controlled by the world commerce
corporation who then suddenly take this
interest in the Bahamas and these shell
companies start to appear I think the
combination of this mass money
laundering and all of these shell
companies could equate to something.
This is a could. Okay. This is you're
you're with me here in the middle of my
investigation.
>> But what happens is the Bahamas becomes
a location associated with all sorts of
weird stuff. Like you said, Thomas Towns
and Brown is meeting William Stevenson,
one of the founding members of the World
Commerce Corporation in the Bahamas. You
have all of this stuff happening on uh
Nassau, the uh the island there. And um
you also have Howard Hughes who suddenly
gets brought down there.
>> Really?
>> Yeah.
>> Whoa. I haven't dug into the story very
deeply, but Howard Hughes I there's
different stories associated with it. It
seems in one story it's a voluntary
thing. In another one he seems to be
kind of taken down there um to be held
for some reason.
>> Wow.
>> Yeah. And I don't have a huge like
background on Howard Hughes, but he's
suddenly in the Bahamas as are endless
people. Another fascinating link is
Alfred Crup. So one of the titans of
German industry. I think he was at the
the Maison Rouge meeting and in 1955 he
goes down there with the richest man one
of the richest men in the world Axel
Wena Gren Swedish multi-billionaire and
they go down to Nassau to discuss power
plays is what's described right big
business power plays
>> so there's there's some gravitational
force pulling people in the final thing
I find fascinating is Resorts
international you familiar with them
>> no
>> sounds so boring why would I care about
Resorts International. There's this
island in that location in the Bahamas.
It's called Hog Island and a guy, it was
actual winner Gren actually purchased
it, re rebranded it Paradise Island.
He's a good marketer. He knows what he's
doing. People are going to go to
Paradise Island. And they basically end
up building this fancy hotel there and
everything. You're thinking this is uh
really uninteresting.
What happens is a weird paint company, I
wish Lenda was here cuz he could tell us
what's really going on. There's this
paint company called the Mary Carter
Paint Company. It's like a CIA front
which is then converted into this
organization called Resorts
International which is kind of running
Paradise Island and some casinos and
gambling which presumably is being used
for moneyaundering.
That casino that that Resorts
International organization decides to
create a subsidiary designed to do intel
checks on staff which then gets
rebranded into what's called
International Intelligence Incorporated.
Intel, this is a private intelligence
agency which suddenly is employing some
of the most talented uh executives, not
executives but CIA, MI6 people are
suddenly working for this non-state
intelligence network which is a
subsidiary of what is effectively a
casino industry.
Intel I think is interesting and I want
to invest time there for a very specific
reason. Jim Seivan is interested in the
secret machines book and I think we
might have pulled some of the threads
about why he also talks about this idea
of a non-state hostile intelligence
network. I don't if you've heard that
phrase before.
>> No,
>> I find it fascinating. It's it's in
reference to Hervana syndrome actually.
>> Um and he's very subtle about it and he
walks right up to the line. He says, you
know, you might want to consider what
Mike Pompeo had said about this
non-state hostile intelligence network.
It's like wow a sort of a transnational
non-state int and you know the world
commerce corporation kind of fits that
that's what Peter Dale Scott described
it as
>> but resorts international suddenly has a
subsidiary which has a private
intelligence network which is doing very
dubious stuff it's connected to
organized crime mansky all of this stuff
fascinating is uh that's like the ' 70s
you know who becomes the controller of
Resorts International in the mid70s
>> who
>> Donald Trump
>> no way. [laughter]
>> What?
>> I know. It's so interesting. For a brief
period, he was the guy basically in
charge of it for for a year or so,
>> whilst this private intelligence network
is presumably still being run.
>> There are many reasons I find that
interesting. I mean, one of them is the
context in which Jim Saman references
the non-state intelligence network. It's
obviously Havana syndrome, but he's also
referencing it in terms of Wikileaks.
>> Yeah.
>> He's saying, you know, that the
Wikileaks thing may have been coming
from there. So you go back to the 2016
election, you got Hillary Clinton versus
Donald Trump. Hillary Clinton is doing
very well and is promising to release
information about UFOs and try and pull
the lid off of things.
>> According to Sam Van, a non-state
intelligence network is responsible for
the leaking of these emails which were
pretty decisive in forcing uh Trump in
and Clinton out.
>> But isn't that because Pompeo hated
Julian Assange and isn't he just talking
about Wikileaks?
>> It's totally possible that he could be
describing that. But what I find
interesting is semi van's focus on it in
the context of Havana syndrome
>> you know so he's saying you might want
to think about what he's saying there so
I've been looking cautiously and trying
to figure out where can I identify
private transnational intelligence
apparatuses because I think this is one
of the big mistakes we make in terms of
analyzing geopolitics as well is when
you're constrained to your analysis
through the lens of nation states
>> for sure
>> you know you're you don't have the
granularity to understand what's going
on you think Well, it's US versus Iran.
It's Russia versus Ukraine. And we all
continue to be mystified about what's
really going on with these wars. These
sort of transnational entities, whether
it's this Nazi underground, the mafia,
um, or a private intelligence network,
which may have allegiances which aren't
aligned with the United States, but
leverages intelligence from the United
States. Could these be important
components to try and understand what's
going on?
>> Absolutely. Well, there's um I don't
know if you've ever read Carol Quigley,
the Anglo-American establishment, but it
talks about how uh US intelligence
agencies were birthed out of this kind
of roundt culture
>> between secret societies in the US and
the UK or really Britain at the time.
And it was Cecile Rhodess and uh Lord
Alfred Milner and you know counterparts
in the US and they had these kind of
loose informal organizations and the
idea that after 1947 when the CIA gets
created and those things get formally
disan disbanded those all go away is
ridiculous. You know that those informal
networks have to persist in some shape
or form. And then you look at the
Epstein stuff and it kind of points at
that too and it points at a lot of
science suppression being a theme. He
said tells Bannon that he's you know
decides to set up Zoro Ranch because Los
Alamos physicists are retiring uh you
know in New Mexico and so he wants to be
you know have proximity to them and he
says he kills pawns in an email which is
cold fusion. He's talking about pawns
and Flechman. And then you go back to
the idea that Maxwell, you know,
probably uh Robert Maxwell cuz he he
obviously, you know, Epstein is with
Gileain Maxwell. Robert Maxwell is
Galileain's father. You know, uh people
always note his Israeli intelligence
ties, which are definitely a thing. Um
but he also, I believe, was tied in with
the MI6. And um
so you have this MI6 guy in in Robert
Maxwell who I I I also don't think
anybody knows interrogated Nazi
scientists post World War II and then
he's setting up scientific peerre and
then his you know call it his son-in-law
I don't think Galain and you know
Jeffrey were married necessarily but
like his you know his protege who's
saying he's going around he's
suppressing science in the form of pawns
flesh you know and so and that feels
like this bizarre international network
shadow network thing.
>> Absolutely. I mean, if you keep looking
at the connection of all these
companies, Robert Maxwell very quickly
comes into frame. So, you're with
Resorts International, you've got Perm
Index and all these things you and
they're all connected to World Commerce
Corporation. Very quickly, just one
increase of the lens you're looking at,
Maxwell appears adjacent to all of this.
And it makes complete sense, right? Alen
Griffith is saying this nexus was the
precursor to Iran Contra, arms
trafficking, drug trafficking,
trafficking in general, and this this
lack of allegiance to any individual
nation or state and this this this
willingness to sort of trounce on
various alliances to to fulfill your
objectives. And Maxwell's also
interesting because of the promise
software scandal. You familiar with
that?
>> Oh, very. Yeah.
>> Right. So he sold that to Sandia Labs.
>> Yeah. Yeah. So whoever had the back door
to there suddenly had all of their
information as well.
>> Yes. So Robert Maxwell is selling
software that is systematically
siphoning off American nuclear secrets
to some organization. Yes.
>> That is very weird and worthy of
investigation you would think.
>> And I think that's where you know what's
interesting to me is you know we traced
it all the way back to the 30s and those
original financial relationships. A lot
of those people were anti-Semitic,
right?
>> But by the time you get to the 70s and
80s, the MOSAD has acred such power,
especially through software. I spent
years in cyber security. One time I was
kind of asked to write a paper on the
Israeli cyber security industry and I
was blown away by how they punch above
their weight.
>> Oh yeah.
>> It's well known now, I think, you know,
in the in the public that
>> cyber warfare capabilities, they're off
the charts. So the promised software
scandal, it's not just like an early
example of cyber warfare. It was the one
where no one was ready for it. They
deployed that software everywhere and
got access to information and
information is power.
>> So I just wonder about the shift of this
network. And I think ultimately at that
level when you're ultimately a
transnational criminal network, you
don't necessarily have the same
allegiances that we might have at our
level of the culture. But there
certainly seems to have been a shift
towards Israeli uh power in that that
underbelly. I think
>> well they yeah they have an elite
hacking unit called 8200 and they you
know all those guys are like you know
elite cyber hackers and stuff and did
Pegasus also come out of Israel which
you know is obviously you know if if
that's on your phone that you know they
track all your key strokes you know
pretty much everything
is is
>> they've already got it all yeah there's
no point worrying about it anymore I
mean they're they're on everywhere
>> they're yeah they're they're very
competent in in those areas Um, yeah.
[laughter]
>> Well, I don't know. I don't know where
that leads us, but
>> well, it's open-ended. I mean, right
now, I'm trying to figure out all those
connections from when you get to the
Bahamas and the But where does it
ultimately intersect with UFOs? And to
me, this is this is where it gets very
interesting because you know what was it
you said about this international
corporation board that that um
>> oh that Ben Rich was saying well he was
saying at the end of his life he was
talking about UFOs and he was lamenting
the fact that you the UFO issue was
governed by this international corporate
board and was hoping that it would be
taken under the kind of the umbrella of
you know
>> American intel and aerospace world more.
>> Yeah. which is fascinating cuz you hear
a guy who's at the tip of the spear when
it comes to building recon planes for
the CIA and you know very advanced
American defense tech and he's saying
that there's something
international above him that governs the
UFO issue.
>> Exactly. You think that's the guy who's
got the secrets and he's frustrated
because he doesn't have them.
>> That's right. And that whatever that
entity is, if it still exists right now,
I think you you you see this sort of
conflation of the Epstein issue and the
deep state issue and the underground
criminal networks with the UFO issue and
they I think they intersect in there.
Whatever it is today is probably quite
dangerous. So, I'm glad we only went up
to the 80s.
>> Yeah. Well, yeah, [laughter]
exactly.
Um, shifting gears before both of us get
whacked. [laughter] Um um you know you
you did a really amazing uh video essay
on some of the deeper threads. Maybe
this is just as dangerous by the way,
but some of the deeper threads of
ufology where you basically see this
kind of uh playbook of manufactured
division going on where you get this
these infighting dynamics of UFO
researchers sort of hating each other.
Yeah. you often get these sort of
constructs as well of like symposiums
studying UFOs in the context of like you
you you describe it as like of the
lineage of the American Academy of Arts
and Sciences,
>> which is fascinating. So, um yeah, I I
want to hear more about that.
>> Yeah, it's super important. Um, again,
you know, we talked earlier about how
this movement is growing, okay? And
there's more and more people talking
about this and a lot of the people
involved are doing, you know, really
phenomenal research. Like look at UAP
Gerby's unbeliev, you know, the other
day I I I tried to copy and paste all of
his transcripts into a single document
so I could control F them and uh
Microsoft Word broke. It couldn't handle
it. There was like a thousand pages. It
was unbelievable.
>> Yeah, he's amazing.
>> He's unbelievable. Yeah. And uh you know
you look at someone like him, what are
your options as you know if you're part
of the secrecy faction and you've been
tasked with trying to keep this
information in what are your options?
You can go and you can say we need to
improve our data leak prevention system
so this information doesn't come out and
yeah that's one prong of your strategy.
>> The other one is how do you deal with
someone like Gerb and there's many
different ways you can do it. And number
one is you can start to psychologically
manipulate someone based on their
profile. And I think no matter who you
are, if you believe that you're immune
to that, you're exactly the target
they're going to be looking for. These
people have been practicing the arts of
psychological manipulation for hundreds
of years. And we should assume if
there's a real there there and people
like you and me and other people who are
trying to just keep moving a little bit
deeper,
is there value in trying to interrupt
those individuals? And there's a very
simple way. It sounds like, you know,
again, is someone going to get whacked?
No, that's that's the obvious thing to
do, right?
>> The really smart thing to do is sources.
Okay. So, what I do is I'm like, well,
Jesse's interested in this. And what I
do is I give you a couple of really good
bits of information to start with,
right? And suddenly you're breaking this
story about this thing that's maybe
somewhat important, but it's not too
important. And you build a relationship
of trust with me. And now you're
thinking, well, yeah, I'm going to make
my next video, but I'm kind of
interested in what Jason's going to
share next. And you know then I start to
introduce more and more unusual
unnecessary extra information which is
not true
>> which gets distilled into the community
which then surrounds all the true
information. But I've also dealt with
you cuz I've turned you from someone who
is active and passionate and you've
become passive. You're waiting for the
sources to tell you what's going on
>> and now it's all these people behind the
shadows who've got the information and
rather than you trying to be analytical
and piece it together and be like I
think this could be true and this isn't
and thank you Mr. ource, but I don't
believe you this time. You sort of get
turned around and I think it's a very
simple but it's practically free. And if
you alongside that, if you just flood
disinformation into the community,
you'll do a wonderful job of making
things very difficult and you know, you
look at the 20 and back story, right?
Yeah.
>> Um I think there's a real conversation
to be had about a secret space program.
>> For sure.
>> Of course there is. Like if I'm going to
build space technology and you know, we
had the Armus mission. Are you telling
me the United States televised their
best space technology [laughter] ahead
of World War III? Are you kidding me?
This is nonsense.
>> That's crazy.
>> And the reality is,
>> yeah,
>> have people been to Mars and be like,
"Oh, that's crazy." It's like, don't
write it off.
>> You know, like 20, 30 years into the
future of our technology will exist
somewhere today.
>> But I'm going to write it off now
because of Corey Good and Gaia because
that's the 20 and bucks 20 and back
stuff is so ridiculous. It's so insane.
Exactly. And that all that stuff has a
unique effect in the United Kingdom
where anything that's on the Discovery
Channel is immediately unacceptable, you
know. So like there's this kind of weird
dynamic there. But the other thing which
I see every day unfortunately and it's
it's really sad is like just researchers
turning against each other and I know
>> getting so aggressive and it's it's
>> you know I guess sometimes maybe it's
warranted. Maybe there need to be
conversations to be had but like
>> it's the easiest way to destroy a a
community.
>> It's so crazy. [laughter] It's so you've
never seen a topic where it's just like
we're covering it should be us against
the world, you know? It's like
recovering like these stigmatized flying
objects that point to some greater
hopefully on some level aspirational
metaphysical truth even if there are
obviously dark elements to it
>> and you just have all this like petty
politics of like you covered this and
this was just
>> just whatever it's all good you know.
>> Yeah. Yeah. It causes a lot of issues as
well because now we all look like a
bunch of nut jobs who can't
>> we all look crazy which then you're
you're falling prey to the manufactured
division. You even I think in this video
that you did was just amazing.
>> You cited the CIA playbook which was
this counterintel handbook around
manufacturing infighting. Exactly. And
you look at UFO Twitter and it's like it
might as well be like the real world
like MTV is like, you know, it's like a
reality show and it's like you're
talking about the again what should be
like the most sacred stuff and it ends
up in this just you know Lord of the
Flies.
>> I think what's happened over the last 10
years is UFOs have kind of gone
mainstream. It's interesting now every
time I speak to someone about like I'm
going fulltime with the the channel
sooning. I'm so excited.
>> You should be. And so inevitably, you
know, conversation comes up and people
like, "So, what are you going to do?"
And I'm like, "Well, I've got a channel
about UFOs." You know, people, they
don't respond by saying like, "What are
you on about?" Normally, what they
struggle with is like, "Why would the
government keep it secret? And how do
they keep it secret?" Genuinely, like
serious questions you got to figure out.
Most people are now like interested, but
there's this next stage now where how do
you help those people like grapple with
all of this stuff? And the same people
who did the first pe you know kind of
movement of this aren't going to be the
same people who do the next one and
similarly after that different people
because you need different types of
evangelists for different types of
audiences at different times so there is
an inevitable life cycle as well and
also specialtities right like in the UK
we really don't have that many people
who talk about this topic um and
actually people in the UK like I said
you put something on the discovery
channel we're going to be like that
can't be true you know like It's it's a
default. There's this kind of snobbish
attitude. So you need specialties. You
need different types of communities. You
need different people at different
stages. And we need to be able to learn
from each other and not feel paranoid
that I haven't cited the exact place I
got this thing from. You know, do your
best, but we need to be cohesive as a
unit. Otherwise, the SCOP personnel from
that manual you mentioned would
>> Yeah. to I agree. Uh apparently King
Charles is super into UFOs. Did have you
heard anything about that or
>> Yeah. from my boy Charlie up the road.
Yeah. [laughter]
>> I don't know. I mean, there's a
connection there with uh Louis Mount
Batton who was his uh uncle, I think.
>> Okay.
>> I think there's a story that something
landed on one of his properties.
>> Wow.
>> And his gardener saw it and he he
vouched for his gardener and put a
report in. Um the royal family is is
interesting uh because of the
connections I was talking about earlier
about this these elites who ran the
intelligence agencies right many of them
are sers they're kned they're the the UK
is a a very different beast to the
United States we still have deeply
systemic issues when it comes to
hierarchies we have a house of lords and
a monarchy you know it's really weird
>> so I the reason I'm mentioning that is
where you might perceive the royal
family to be this kind of little
spectacle. Actually, they're
[clears throat] deeply integrated into
politics. Um, most legislation that goes
through our parliament, they can veto it
and review it and ensure it doesn't
apply to them. And uh there have been
claims that different people have been
briefed about certain topics. I I can't
remember the details of those. I think
if you're the king, I would be
unbelievably bored. So, I'd be
interested in peering into this. Yeah.
>> You know, I'd be like, you know, well,
I've already got all the power.
Everyone's sickopantic around me about
who I am. Like what am I going to do to
stimulate my curiosity, so I hope he's
into it. Um, but I, you know, if he was
to say anything about it, I wouldn't
trust him.
>> That's an interesting, it's like the
boredom theory of blueblooded elite UFO
interest is a an interesting thread of
Likenstein.
>> That's right. I was just thinking, yeah,
Hans, it's funny. I my girlfriend is she
was reading this book by Shirley Mlan,
this famous actor out here in LA. She's
um you know this very spiritual uh uh
you know figure kind of newagy uh but
really thoughtful as well. and uh she um
was writing she wrote a book called
Going Within and she was writing about
being in like some government office in
DC and she's with Claybornne Pel who is
super into you know UFOs, paranormal
stuff and actually happens to be Biden's
he's a senator and he was Biden's uh
adviser and it's Claybornne Pel uh the
royal
>> it's a Pel. Yeah, it rings a bell.
Senator Pel and the Bud Hopkins uh is
there as well and I think has an
experiencer there who she claims that
like she was you know there she's part
of some alien hybrid program or whatever
and her fetus went missing 3 months in
which is a common thing if you talk to
people who are you know interested in
the abduction thread um and uh and then
the royal prince of Likenstein is there
as well and she's just writing about
this casually and you know and and then
apparently he convened convened the
royal prince of Likenstein, Hans Adams,
convened all of the Roswell uh witnesses
as well and he was friends with Whitley
Strieber and like he was just really
interested in UFOs. I think he's still
alive. I think he's in his early 80s or
something.
>> Was he the guy who was financially
supporting the Lone Stars group, you
know, the sort of post ORSA group of
scientists? They had some sort of
sponsor who seemed to be associated with
that area.
>> What is the Lone Star? who was uh
>> oh um so so after the OSAP program was
you know they were constantly going to
get funding they didn't get funding
going to get funding so they all they
they really wanted to continue
discussing things and so they formed
this informal group which is called the
the lone stars Jack Balet Eric Davis
Halputo off all the same people
>> Ed May who might have been part of that
group he was a famous remote viewer
involved in the Stargate program he
talks about uh working with the royal
prince of Likenstein Hans Adams so yeah
I I don't know if that's connected with
Lonear, but yeah,
>> I think he seems very interested in
exotic tech A and B, you know, alien UFO
phenomena. And I think I think he
believes that Jesus is going to it's
esodological at its core, like he
believes Jesus will show up on a flying
saucer or something.
>> That would be a great end to [laughter]
it all.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Finally. Yeah.
>> Yeah. I'm back. [laughter]
>> Yeah. Okay. Okay. Well, uh I I don't
know where he would have got that from,
but I guess it's the synthesis of of two
very different things put together,
right?
>> I think there are people who think that,
you know, that Jesus going up on the
cloud in the book of Acts is a, you
know, as a flying saucer or something.
And
>> it's interesting. I mean, what's
fascinating is he's like the most
influential person of all time, but we
just don't know much about him.
>> Jesus.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. I mean, well, you know, you have
all these riddles and parables that he
spoke in and stuff and
>> but did he but did he speak in the
>> That's unclear. That's the whole thing.
It's hard to say.
>> The distance and time and everything.
So,
>> for sure.
>> You know, he was
>> I mean, I think he was a real historical
figure.
>> 100%.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> And then Yeah, I don't know.
>> Exactly. From there, I think, you know,
he had he had an impact and he was
interesting, but you know, what we can
filter through that is uh is limited.
>> Yeah.
>> Is what I would say to the prince
affliction sign if he was here. But he's
pro my my guess would also be if we were
in the room with Jesus, he would be
notable in any room he's in. He would be
he would probably have like a pretty
interesting energy and have a
disproportionate impact, you know? He
wouldn't just be like a dude in the
corner, you know?
>> Yeah. I mean, the charisma that you need
to to to have that impact is huge. Or at
least the capabilities that you would
need, right? Sometimes people aren't
that charismatic, but they have an
ability to do things which really puts
them at the center of the room.
>> Yes.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. So, where do you think all this
stuff goes? This this modern crazy UFO
disclosure push. Obviously, there are
>> cynical motives and intents behind it
and weird elements and factions all
fighting and vying for it. And then
there's also something very hopeful and
aspirational to me at least that comes
from it which is this bulldozer into the
past paradigm of kind of materialist
reductionism which to me leads to kind
of
>> nihilism and so uh what do you what do
you think happens there there positive
possibilities and negative
possibilities? Yeah, I see. I don't know
that these are the things that are going
to happen, but I've recently been just
really focused on this this tension of
two interpretations of what's going on
right now. And it comes back to that
Collins Elite video actually where
you've got, you know, there are these
Christian people who believe the end
times started in the 1900s. But then
there's simultaneously these new age
people who believe that we're going
through a transition and you know one
person's apocalypse might be another
person's like the world is changing and
you know like a Pulka says revelation.
It's like it's it's a revelation. It's
like it new information is coming in. So
how we view the future I think is is
really important. the lens that we bring
to it through which we interpret this
incredibly mysterious thing is going to
be pretty decisive. So, um you know, I
do I do worry about the the the
religious component and our inability to
cautiously delineate between what people
have experienced and and dogma. Um but I
[clears throat] hope I hope that we're
going through that slow evolution and
that we may be on the verge of something
immensely positive. Um, you know the
cheesy phrase is always darkest before
the dawn.
>> It's getting real dark at the moment.
And uh, you know, my my two hopes are
one that there'll be a dawn and that
this is going somewhere and we'll
discover what that is in some beautiful
way.
At moments where I lose hope in that, I
remind myself of the astonishing
testimony of life after death. And um
you know Leslie Kane's amazing book
surviving death has been a huge rock of
comfort for me at times where you know
whether it's on a personal level or on a
global level you feel kind of hopeless
is uh you know I'm a big believer that
all of this has real meaning and uh you
know what we're experiencing here is
this physical reality but there's a lot
more going on. Um, very vague answer to
your question, but those are the sort of
the the pillars I stand on to try and
navigate whatever's coming because it's
short-term it seems kind of negative.
>> Yeah, fair enough. Do do you have do you
have a sort of a a base case
understanding of of what is going on?
Obviously, we talked about, you know,
the flying objects themselves, but
there's obviously this sort of
>> Yeah.
>> abduction phenomena as well and kind of
what seems like this bizarre
intergenerational breeding hybridization
program.
>> Yeah.
>> What's that about?
>> Yeah. Yeah. I think that that's uh
that's a really important point actually
is disclosure. How much of that
information can even come out?
>> Because you know, we've already covered
like there's this set course menu.
Lzando many years ago he said you can't
do a 10 course menu all at once you have
to do it piece by piece so we've had
there's something in the air we don't
know what it is but we've had um some of
these things have crashed it's very
likely not Russia or China we've got the
bodies there's a secret program and it's
sensitive we've been through like five
or six courses you know one of the big
things that people have hinted at is
information about like hybridization
>> y
>> it sounds wild so I have like a a notion
which is like my notebook where I keep
all stuff and I was just dropping
whenever I'd hear information about
hybrids I like I don't want to forget
about this but I'm really not interested
in this wacky topic just drop it in that
folder and um you know eventually I went
back in there and I was like oh whoa
hold on a second there's like a lot here
and one of the interesting things was
how many different people seem to have
been kind of warned off of talking about
the hybrid issue
>> so Dong when he came out he was like
there's a big genetic component to this
and he said I you know I asked my
advisers these questions these
questions, but the moment I asked them
about hybrids, they were like went quiet
and I wasn't supposed to talk about
that.
>> Wow.
>> Yeah. The same thing with uh Valet's
journals. He recounts a conversation
with Diana Pulka where Pulka is
basically explaining that they
>> I don't know Tim Taylor, who is it is
saying like you shouldn't be talking
about the hybrid thing. And then you've
got John Ramirez who in 2022
uh made comments to the effect that
everyone is waiting for Lu Alzando to
talk about hybrids like it's coming.
>> So there's this kind of idea that we've
got this like process that we have to go
through in terms of which conversations
happen when
>> and so you know I start thinking about
the hybrid thing and very quickly you
begin to realize why it would be at the
very least a late stage topic and then
you might even realize maybe it's too
dangerous to even talk about it. So the
the hybridization thing raises questions
because if we can breed with non-human
entities, does that mean that we're
related?
>> So suddenly you've got really confusing
piece of information which immediately
leads to another really big question
about who we are. Next you've got
questions about our religious texts and
what they really mean. So now you're
destabilizing religion as well. The
really big concern here is we have been
through and right now are also going
through moments where we question the
human dignity of the people next to us.
So in World War II, everything that
happened in terms of the Holocaust was
basically about trying to exterminate a
specific lineage, right? A specific
group of people and their DNA from the
planet. Uh we see similar things
happening right now, you know, arguably
in Gaza and Israel. You've you've got
questions there about, you know,
genocide and about the racial components
there. What I find very interesting is
in the secret machines books, the
non-fiction, you've got one of the
advisers just outright telling Levender
and Dong, you know, genocides may be a
function of the phenomenon. It may be
trying to eliminate certain genetic
strands for its own purposes. That's
coming from it could be massland. It
could be General Hayden. We don't know
which one. But one of the advisers said
this and it was in the book and they
were like we need to share this
information as part of this project. So
you've got this huge question here about
what is going on in terms of race. One
of the fascinating links to this is uh
you know when the bledos had their
experience and uh Ryan Bledo recounts a
conversation that he had a lot of people
have issues with Ryan Bledo that's fine
that's okay but he recounts a
conversation he had with Jim Seivan I
think it's very instructive. Semi van
purportedly told him, you know, we think
you're hybrids. The reason you're having
these experiences is because you may
have more nonhuman DNA um or a certain
strand of non-human DNA. You read Lu
Alzando's book, Imminent, it's in there.
>> He says it seems to be that people with
Cherokee blood and uh DNA have more
experiences and also are more inclined
to go towards a certain type of work,
right? So, so they end up in this kind
of government UFO mystery solving thing
based on their genetic lineage. So all
sorts of different information is coming
from places indicating that and it's you
know we can't take this as fact because
it may well be the case that this is
real that there is studies showing that
as you change the genetic profile of an
individual certain things happen maybe
you gain certain capabilities which
would be very interesting but there's
another side to this which is whether
it's true or whether it's a mythology I
tend to I doubt it's just a mythology
but either way can we handle that
information right now given where we
are, given the geopolitical conflicts,
given our inability to see each other as
human beings and it's so painful. I
mean, like I'm I'm not in pain. I'm I'm
here with you in California. It's great,
you know, but it's just looking at
what's happening around us right now.
You think if we were to reveal that some
people on the planet have more non-human
DNA whilst other people have less, that
creates a spectrum by which you can
judge whether a person is more or less
human? You telling me you want to
release that information into the
general population right now?
>> No, that doesn't seem like a good idea.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. There's so much data indicating
that, you know, and it's it's anecdotal
data, sure, but from this group of
people who have been releasing
information, that's one of the things
that's kind of being hinted at.
>> It's anecdotal, but it's also from guys
who were very high up at the CIA,
especially when it comes to people like
Jim Saman. You imagine, and it's funny
as you were talking, I'm I'm almost
thinking like, okay, so you're an
average person. and you hear somebody
high up at the CIA say, you know,
something about alien human hybrids and
you are totally disenchanted with the
government. You're skeptical of
everything. You know, we just went
through all this Epstein stuff or
whatever and you're you're thinking
they're just, you know, they're going to
they're going to lie to me.
>> And so, um, uh, you're you're going to
be so totally skeptical and think that
that's just like a distraction. If
you're the intel person who's super
savvy, you're gonna know that you saying
that will hit like, you know, some part
of the population who kind of wants to,
you know, is interested in this and
wants to read between the lines and like
learn more. And um but a lot of people
are just going to dismiss you out of
hand. And so you might even knowing that
release this you might be like the
person who comes out becomes the
spokesperson for this stuff and then it
kind of sits there marinates trickles
through society and kind of you know it
becomes more acceptable to talk about 5
10 years later and it like it seeps into
one academic gets interested and that's
how this thing sort of gets legitimized
and and and and happens. But that
doesn't necessarily mean it's only a
scop. That that means like they know
that them saying it sort of like makes
you immune because you don't believe
them anyways.
>> Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. It's a
dissemination of information in a
nondirect kind of way.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. I think so. uh you know the uh
>> and they don't they a lot of these guys
you know some of them I'm sure have
counterintel backgrounds um and I'm sure
some of them have done some very
unsavory things in their past but
they're also
pretty savvy and they don't they don't
want to be looked at as total sickopants
in the future like they'd I think they'd
rather not 10 20 30 years down the line
especially if they held high positions
they don't want to be looked at as like
you just bold-faced lied to the American
public
>> you know as some high up intel person.
So
>> I don't know it's a very it's
interesting. [laughter]
>> I find it's also like that whole strand
of thinking is interesting in terms of
geopolitics. Delong again like early
interviews before anyone knew who his
advisers were. He was talking about how
some of the things that we did in Iraq
may have been related to certain groups
of people there who were connected with
certain non-human entities and were
helping them proliferate. And that that
may have been one of the motivations,
which sounds like a
>> what
>> I know it's like sounds like a
mythology, but that's one of the things
that he was sharing before he was
suddenly like exposed as literally
having these people speak to him.
>> Yeah.
>> But you know, one of the things I I you
know, so many of our walls don't make
any sense.
>> Yeah.
>> What are we really doing? What's the
real purpose of them? Yeah. Well, they
make a little more sense through the
kind of lens of, you know, acquiring oil
and resources and and geopolitics. So,
like why would you go into Iran for, you
know, a nuclear program that's never
really seemed to manifest? They don't
really they seem like a paper tiger, you
know, as far as actually being able to
have those capabilities. But then, does
it put a lot of, you know, pressure on
China and make the whole world more
dependent on American natural gas? Yes,
it does. Mhm.
>> And then you kind of view like American
foreign policy through that hermeneutic
over the last 70 years and it starts to
make more sense.
>> But maybe there's some even weirder kind
of, you know, lens that you can put on
it
>> because if you believe that this is
going on and we've had I mean we didn't
even talk about this this again another
idea that's trickled out there is we
have a relationship with some of these
beings
>> and if that's a thing like we talked
about Herman I forget his name the
German guy the Nazi guy who claimed that
they had relationship Herman or or Beth.
Oh, Herman Oberth.
>> Ober. Yeah. Yeah. Herman Oberth. And uh,
you know, who [clears throat] is it on
our side who may have had a
relationship? But you're telling me we
have a relationship and that's not
impacting our geopolitics. Yeah.
>> I think it's probably the the key
epistemic foundation that we would have
to understand what's going on. So, um,
but again, that's that's that's mystery
world. We can't see that very clearly,
but if this is going somewhere, that's
going to be a reality.
>> Yeah. And you talk about, you know,
historically you have kind of mystic
truth seeker individuals and then you
have kind of the canonical
establishment, you know, religious
institution that
kind of determines what's acceptable as
far as what you can believe and not. And
so this brings up a really interesting
question that you've covered. Do you
think the Vatican knows anything about
UFOs?
>> Absolutely.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Absolutely I do. And I think that
the the role of the Vatican is hinted at
by many people that I would respect. It
kind of comes up and then it disappears,
right? No one wants to focus too much on
the Vatican. Um so we'll keep this
short. [laughter]
But I I think um what is you know what
is it that makes an institution last for
a long time? 2,000 years. There's
there's some other institutions like I
think Egyptian empires have lasted
longer. But the the key thing is you
have to resist change. You have to
resist revolution. And uh the Vatican
did and has done an outstanding job on
that. Um you know there was many
doctrinal things that came up and they
they dealt with that and they were
suppressing all sorts of things that
would come up for a long time. But
eventually you have the reformation
which in turn leads to the enlightenment
which in turn leads to you know like a
new form of government over here in
America. These are all revolutions and
demonstrabably the Vatican uh conspiring
with the monarchies and the knights of
Malta who lost Malta because of Napoleon
uh during the Napoleonic Revolution. All
of them were like we nearly got wiped
off the map, you know, like late 1700s
nearly completely destroyed all of this
old power. So afterwards they colluded a
thing called the Congress of Vienna. I
say 1812 or something.
>> 1815.
>> 1815. You were ready for this. Clemens
von Metick
>> the what? Who? Cleans von Menanik.
>> Who's that?
>> He oversaw the the Congress of Vienna.
>> I'm glad you're here, Jess. [laughter]
The guy on top underneath him attending
were the various monarchies and uh the
Vatican, the Knights of Malta. And the
idea was like, look, we don't like each
other. Like before Napoleon, these
people weren't getting on, but we better
get on
>> because when a revolution happens in
southern Italy, that's Austrahungaria's
problem. So, I'm going to send people
down to help with that. let's
systematize our response to change and
that is just a reality um historically.
So the Vatican has always tried to deal
with revolutions. What's the ultimate
revolution? The reality that the
biblical narrative which constrains the
information especially not even just the
biblical narrative but the doctrine
that's built on top of it which
constrains our interpretation of these
frankly bizarre events uh could be blown
open by the next revolution. So just as
a a form of if the Vatican has a
personality, it's conservative.
>> Now you can look at very specific
instances where you can see this at
work. Great one's Fatima. I went there
recently and uh did a tour and it was
really funny cuz I went and scheduled
this tour with me and my girlfriend at
the time and we went up to this lady and
we spent about half an hour with her and
eventually she's like, "Are you guys
Catholic?" And we're like, "No." She's
like, "What are you doing here?" You
know, [laughter] everyone else who goes
on this tour is a Catholic. Um, but we
went around and she showed us exactly
where all these events happened and
everything. And basically, for those who
don't know, it's a 1917 kind of period
in Portugal, place called Fatima. And
these young children start to see
strange beings. This lady appears and,
you know, no one else can really see
this lady. And the children keep saying
she's appearing and everyone's thinking
whatever, you know, but she appears so
many times the town starts to get a
little bit stirred up by it, by their
stories. Then eventually she says
there's going to be a huge miracle
that's going to happen on this date,
this place. 70,000 people turn up and
the newspapers document this and all the
history we have shows this. They turn up
in a field and um eventually everyone's
thinking like am I going to stay here?
This nothing's happening. So they're
getting ready to go and the clouds pop
and there's this thing in the sky and
the sources that we have from lawyers
and doctors and you know very serious
people describe it as a silvery disc.
Okay, it's hovering there and it's
suddenly doing this and it's going there
and it's doing that. It's whizzing
around. At one point it comes down. It
seems like it's about to hit them and it
goes back and then suddenly the the the
clouds come over and you know the sun
kind of reappears from behind them.
Okay, so the Vatican basically says this
was the sun flying around. Okay, people
said they saw a disc, but for the
Vatican that's kind of dangerous. You're
telling me there's a silver disc in the
sky? I'm probably going to stop focusing
on all my Hail Marys and start reading
some books, you know. So now there's
this tendency to constrain the
information. You also had this with uh
>> specifically though on that I think the
Vatican confiscated one of the
prophecies from the the orphans or
whatever that uh you know
>> made the prophecy around you know the
son and or or the Virgin Mary showing up
which turned into this sort of you know
sun in the sky. Um, but I think the
prophecy was more complex than it sort
of portrayed historically and it was
written down and that piece of paper was
literally confiscated. Yeah.
>> By the Vatican. It's fascinating.
>> Yes. Yeah. The secrets of Fatima, right?
Which is a wonderful way to brand it.
>> Yeah. And then you have the magenta
crash probably being held by the Vatican
as well or or at least under the
knowledge I think it was held at the
Serat bunker which was outside of Rome
but it was the information about it was
backneled through Pope Pius I 12th
>> to FDR
>> and yeah you have other weird stuff too
like I don't you cannot believe the
Majestic 12 docs I I think they were
probably some counterintel ploy but
clearly part of the stuff in there is
And there's one document around uh
Francis Spelman being given access to
the Roswell materials. Francis Spelman
is deeply tied in with the Vatican
>> and um was was he a cardinal actually or
>> he was a cardinal and the grand
protector of the Knights of Malta.
>> Yeah, there you go. And so he's supposed
to get access to the Roswell materials
immediately. But this is in the Majestic
12 documents. And then there's
documentation of Bishop McIntyre,
another guy pretty high up in, you know,
the Vatican ecosystem, and he's hanging
out around Edwards Air Force Base in
1954. There, this is not even MJ12. This
is real records of this Bishop McIntyre
hiring hanging around Edwards Air Force
Base in 54 when uh, you know, Eisenhower
is rumored to, you know, do his deal
with the aliens around allowing medical
experiments to be done among the the
human population. So very strange
>> it is and the general Catholic influence
in America is huge. You know I in a
video that's be released today on my
channel we talk about this just again
looking at the American republic when it
was founded. It was founded on a
completely new philosophy of how
government would work where church and
state were separated and some of the
founding fathers were very worried about
Catholic influence in America because
you know generally the influence in
Europe had been to suppress okay and not
to allow democracy and the free flow of
information but they allowed Catholics
of course that's the doctrine of America
right I may not agree with you but
you're welcome here over time uh the
Jesuits founded many universities here
at one point more than anybody else
including forom university Georgetown
town and um that's a great way to
influence a nation slowly. You're doing
great work with education. Catholic
education has always been very good, but
now you have access to all the people
who are coming up in the youth and you
can take those who are devout Catholics
and put them in very strategic positions
and say, "Well, I know you were going to
do seminary. I know you love the Bible,
but I really think you should get into
intelligence."
>> That's one of the people who was the
founding uh the founding director of the
Air Force Office of Special
Investigations. WA. Yeah.
>> No way. Cuz they pop up all over UFO
lore. They're always, you know, uh,
somebody at a nuclear base sees
something and the Air Force Office of
Special Investigations shows up.
>> Yeah. Exactly. Says, you know, give me
all the radar data. Shut up about this.
Sign this NDA.
>> Yeah. Mhm. [clears throat] Mhm.
>> Okay. So he so the founding director
>> Carol I forget his first name but uh the
founding director of of Air Force
officer special investigations was a
devout Catholic who wanted to go to
seminary and suddenly found himself in
intelligence
>> and of course it's AFOSI
which is overseeing the very beginnings
of the Collins elite theory which begins
to appear which you know we've already
discussed is ostensibly not necessarily
the best theory to explain everything.
It's kind of good. Um so but Catholics
in general appear throughout the
American intelligence establishment and
there was a census that um I saw some
data on where 33% of Irish Catholics had
served in the military at some point. 40
or 50% of the Medal of Honors that were
awarded were awarded to to I think Irish
Catholics or Catholics. These are these
are really big swings in the data. Um
now that's not to say that Irish
Catholics are bad or anything. I'm
Irish, which surprises people, but you
know, I'm not trying to say this race or
this religion is bad. The point is the
slow influence of this old world power,
this top-down power from Europe over
here in America has has happened. And
all it takes is, you know, if you have
the Vatican who may have an interest in
preventing that ultimate revolution, and
they now managed to get people in
positions of key power, AFOSI,
different general, CIA directors, I
mean, the number of CIA directors who
are knights of Malta or Catholic is
preposterously high.
>> Um, you get those people into the key
functions, you've now essentially got a
seat at the board of directors of the
UFOs issue. M um and all of your history
and your intelligence apparatus can be
leveraged by them as long as you have a
symbiotic relationship where you both
understand each other
>> because the Vatican is at its core a
vast network.
>> It's one of the biggest organizations
probably the biggest one on the planet
with so many different networks whether
you're looking at the Jesuits, the
Knights of Malta, Opus Day, um there's
the Pro Dio intelligence network. I mean
at one point I tried to list them all
and I thought this is going to take a
long time to dig into all this stuff.
It's huge. Um, so yeah, I do think that
the Vatican knows more. I do think that
they've tried to reinterpret things.
But, you know, I wish another person I
wish I could speak to is Pulka.
>> Yeah.
>> Because there's differences here. Some
Catholics believe that we're going
through what seems to be kind of like an
evolutionary like it's very open. It's
not that doctrinal. And there are some
who view themselves to be like a
cataconic force with restraining the end
times. and their job is to prevent that
final thing from happening.
>> Whereas other people are like the final
thing's gonna happen. It's really good,
>> you know. So there's there's a mix.
>> Yeah. There's the imminentizing the
escaton crowd and then there's the you
know Yeah. Let's restrain it and keep a
lid on it and keep the institutions kind
of intact and so and it seems like
>> people uh who believe both are in
extremely high positions of power. So
it's like it's hard to say that the
conspiracy just exists on the side of
the like speeding up the apocalypse or
just exists on the side of the like you
know keeping the institutions intact
>> like who who who know or maybe that
maybe those are the two seinal factions
fighting or something I don't know but
>> yeah I think uh the control I don't know
how far it can really go um in terms of
total control and now you know you look
at Pope Leo calling out Trump it's
interesting to me because
>> prior to that. I was looking at Trump. I
was seeing he attended Forom University.
He's consistently tried to get Catholics
into the Secretary of Defense position.
He's consistently pushed um Catholics
involved in strange networks onto the
judiciary. Uh you know, it's it's it's
palpable.
>> But uh is that just a public spat for
other purposes? Is it real? Is it
genuine?
>> Recently, uh was it Pope Francis was the
last pope?
>> Yeah.
>> I think he was trying to deal with the
Knights of Maltra as well. there was
some conflict there about them maybe
operating a little bit rogue. He had to
pull them in.
>> So, you know, as with all things, you
can't simply assume it's all one big
thing.
>> It's the same thing. I I really struggle
when people say uh you know, the
Freemasons, the Jesuits, they're all
part of like one big operation.
>> No, it's clearly not. And the I think
the the maybe the biggest fallacy of UFO
research is we talk about Reagan like he
spends all his time on UFOs [laughter]
and it's like realistically it's sub 1%
and he really is just geopolit Trump
really like if there's anything going on
there the resorts international thing
that's fascinating and I want to look
into that but like my gut on that guy is
he's not thinking deeply about UFOs you
know
>> survival mode.
>> Yeah. He's just thinking about, you
know, how to make things work and, you
know, I was thinking about geopolitics
and
>> so, but this was fascinating. I
appreciate your time, Jason. It's been a
lot of fun.
>> Could go on for hours, but uh, everybody
should go check out your channel. How do
they find you on YouTube?
>> You just type in Jason Samosa. The
channel's big enough now that you won't
just find strange images of Jason Mimoa
as a samosa.
>> There you go.
>> We've passed that stage.
>> Broken through. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, we we reached
a milestone, but you can find me there.
And uh I'm on X as well.
>> You do have the Jason Mimoa facial hair.
I will say
>> that's been a goal I've been working on
for a while. I'm thrilled to hear you
say that. That's going to go live,
right?
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah.
>> Don't cut that out.
>> Oh, we won't. [laughter]
>> Awesome, man. Appreciate you.
>> Appreciate it. Thanks, Jess.
>> Cool.
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