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like Travis Walton at all.
>> You know who he is, right?
>> Of course I know who he is. Yeah. Yeah.
And I I believe him.
>> I do, too.
>> I mean, he he certainly seems
believable. I I'm you know people that
tell the same story for decades and
decades without any variation to it.
It's hard. I mean, you know, he I don't
know what happened, but all the people
that were with him during the time we're
talking about, for people just listening
now, talking about Travis Walton, who
was a man who in the 1970s was a logger
in Arizona, and he was uh allegedly, or
according to him, abducted by aliens.
And uh the people that he was with saw
him get hit by a beam of light. They
freaked out, took off. They they were
driving away and they were like, "We got
to go back and get him. We got to go
back and get him." They turned around,
went back and got him. tried to get him.
He was gone. The craft was gone and uh
he uh disappeared for five days and then
turned up and had this insane story.
>> Yeah. And then he's taken uh those tests
like uh
>> polygraph test.
>> Yeah. Polygraph tests like every year or
something like that or he takes them
regularly and he always passes them.
>> Well, so did the people that were with
him.
>> Yeah. Yeah. And they and I've seen
people uh interview the people that were
with him even just recently and they're
like, "Well, whatever." Regardless of
what I think about Travis as a person,
yeah, that happened.
>> Yeah. One of the guys actually got in a
fist fight with him the day of the
abduction.
>> The guy did not like him. Like they
hated each other. And then, you know,
they were young guys. And then he had to
testify and he was like, "It happened."
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Whatever it was. So yeah, I believe him
and his his interpretation has changed a
lot too through the years in not the the
facts the facts are all the same but his
interpretation of them like you know
were they because he thought they were
pretty malign like bad right he didn't
enjoy being abducted let's put it that
way
>> um but then over the years he said well
maybe something spiritual happened but I
don't know where he's at right now I
haven't seen a recent interview
>> there's an interesting one that's out
now with him and Bob Lazar sitting
across from each other
>> wow Yeah. In a diner. It's very weird.
And they're sitting there eating pie
talking about, you know, what they think
this whole thing is.
>> Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
>> Yeah. Yeah. [clears throat]
>> So, what's new in the the world of all
this?
>> Well, a lot. Right. So, the government
has been releasing UFO files since May
2026. And this is something that a lot
of people think is really important and
you know it's a form of disclosure. Uh
they're pushing the group that is
pushing this and happy that this is
happening. They're also wanting the
president to come out and say yeah we
there are these things. Um I saw JD
Vance on your show the other day that
was really interesting. He's of course I
I was interested in what he had to say.
you kind of pushed back on his what he
was talking about in terms of calling I
don't want to use that word the dword
right
>> demons why don't you want to use that
word
>> because I must take this opportunity now
to say that I am speaking on your
podcast as a private individual and I
don't represent my university talking
about this okay [laughter]
>> so I mean seriously look what happened
to him so he basically you know was
honest and said yeah I think that these
are you know demons Well, you know, that
was the headline, Joe, but when you
actually listen to what he had to say,
it was more complicated. And so, I
thought that uh he did a good job of of
uh talking about it with you. And and if
you want, we can talk about that, why he
would think that. He is Catholic. Um I'm
Catholic. I do history of Catholicism is
part of what I do. Um by the way, I'm a
professor of religious studies at uh
university. So, uh yeah. So, I've been
like looking at that. I've been doing
Catholic history my whole life. So I
started doing looking into UFO
experiences in 2012
and um yeah so lost is new are lots of
stuff is new. Okay.
>> I didn't think that he had a very
satisfying explanation as to why he
would say I think they are demons.
>> Yeah I can fill that out.
>> Okay.
>> Okay. Or fill that in. Um all right. So
he's coming from the perspective of
Catholic theology. So in Catholic
theology there are generally if you're
looking at anomalous phenomena which
they do supernatural anomalous phenomena
a lot of weird stuff happens within the
history of religions. Okay. So they have
categories for understanding this stuff
and the categories include three
different um categories basically three
different types of things. Supernatural
things which they think can't be
explained and that they're like
miracles. um you know someone terminally
ill prays for a saint intercession and
then they become healed and doctors say
we can't figure that out. That's
supernatural. That's a miracle from God.
Okay. Uh that's one category. The other
category is the natural. So things that
are within nature, we can explain them.
You know, everybody's knows what a
natural kind of event is. Hurricanes and
things like that. Um, but there's an
there are events that cannot be
explained but don't merit supernatural,
the supernatural category. And those
events can, by the way, there's a word
for it and they call it the pternatural.
Okay, the pternatural. And this has been
a category that Catholics have had since
at least the medieval time period. And
because they're trying to figure out,
you know, if let's just talk about UFOs.
If UFOs are here now, most likely
they've been around for a long time. And
so whatever Cassix were seeing in the
medieval time period, they were they had
categories for trying to understand it
just like we're trying to have too. And
so they're they say uh the theologians
at the time said like Aquinas, Thomas
Aquinas, he said okay the pre-ternatural
these are events that happen and they're
either angelic like you know good things
like that or demonic which are fallen
angels or other things because God has
created other things other than you know
he's created the unseen and the seen
some things that we can't see. So in the
pre-ternatural, there happens to be
experiences that people have with things
that seem to be similar to what people
talk about when they're talking about
being abducted by UFOs. Um beings that
that appear and disappear. Uh beings
that can seemingly read your mind. So
this would be the theological category
that Catholics have called the
prednatural. And I think that's what uh
JD Vance was trying to get at. But why
would you call that a demon?
>> Okay, so this is a good question and
that's where I'm going to kind of like
help
>> push back on you and then you could push
back on me again. All right, [laughter]
so the the the fact is is that we don't
know. Okay, we don't know. So there's
analogous experiences that people have.
Now that I've been doing this since
2012, a long time, uh, it is beyond a
doubt that there's a pattern match
between people who have these
experiences and people who have demonic
experiences.
That's an analogy, but that doesn't
prove that they're identical.
>> When you say pattern match, what do you
mean?
>> Yeah. So, I'm talking about what people
actually experience. So, when people
have these experiences, what happens to
them? They report things like things
appearing and disappearing, luminous
lights, okay, light showing up, aerial
phenomena. They also report beings,
beings that can somehow read their
minds. They also report that sometimes
they feel like these beings put thoughts
in their minds. Okay, these are all
things that Catholics who know the
history would say, "Wow, that sounds
like this kind of situation." Um, does
that mean it is that situation? There's
no No, we can't say that it is. And
that's where your point is relevant.
Your point is that how do we know that
they're demons? We don't know that
they're demons. But it warrants an
investigation, I think, into the
similarities.
>> Okay. But when you think about demons,
most people think about evil. They think
about something that does horrible
things to you. possession, you know,
something that causes you to murder
people or something that wants to murder
you or something wants to steal your
soul. That doesn't seem at all like what
we're talking about with these UFO
experiences. What it seems like is
you're encountering something that has a
superior intelligence of superior
technology, something that's very
different that communicates
telepathically, but they don't seem to
have vicious intentions. So, I don't
understand the distinction. I understand
why you would call that a demon unless
you're just using that in this old
school term because the people that were
experiencing this supposedly
or assumably when we're talking about
ancient times and they didn't have words
for it and they didn't know what they
were experiencing, they would call that
a demon.
>> Yeah. Okay. So, this is a really good
comment and this is something that I'd
agree with you like in before 2016. I'd
say, "Yeah, you're right.
>> What changed?"
>> Okay, that I did a lot of research and
um and what I found was that
let's take an example because examples
are good. Uh Skinwalker Ranch. So, there
are a lot of people who are associated
with
looking into UFOs who are well known to
UFO people um who work at Skinwalker
Ranch. Okay. So, I learned about
Skinwalker Ranch pretty early on, 2013
or so, and I learned it from about it
from Gary, Gary Nolan. Um, all right.
So, he said he was talking to me about
it. He said, "Yeah, a lot of my friends
are working out there, and they want me
to go out there and do some study of
what's going on. There's anomalous
phenomena. Um, it they think it's
associated with UFOs because UFOs show
up and this and that." And I said, "Oh,
are you going to go out there?" And he
said, "No, I'm not going out there." And
so I I was like,"Well, okay, why?" And
he said, 'Because it's really negative,
the things that happen to people, they
they get something called the hitchhiker
effect. And so the hitchhiker effect is
when this scary stuff that's associated
with like a haunted place uh follows you
home,
>> right? I've heard of that before.
>> Yeah, the the hitchhiker effect. Um I
think it's called the hitchhiker
syndrome or something. And so I met a
lot of people who had this happen to
them who had had UFO experiences. So I
would say that no, not all UFO
experiences are like that. But enough of
them are like that for me not to ever
have one. and also to associate the
pre-ternatural. That's what I started to
understand that well the pre-ternatural
is still the best category that we have
for looking at this because not all
pre-ternatural phenomena even for
Catholics is negative right some of it's
actually really positive but the thing
the problem is is that human beings have
a hard time fig figuring out like you
know it could be deceptive this is
another thing where Gary Nolan comes in
um he was on Tucker Carlson I don't know
like four years ago or something And um
he said, and I've talked to him about
this too. Tucker asked him about,"Well,
what do these things, you know, what do
they say?" And he goes, "Oh, they lie.
They they're deceptive. They, you know,"
and he's a guy who doesn't have a dog in
the race in terms of religion. Like he's
not, you know, affiliated with any
religion. So, you know,
>> when he said they lie, like what
specific examples does he have of them
lying?
>> Okay. So listen when we start to look at
this type of situation with you know
these experiences and so forth what a
Catholic would do like what a what a
Catholic priest say would do would be to
identify if there if there's deceit
happening to identify if there are
negative effects and you know because
there's criteria for looking at the
pre-ternatural and so a lot of things
that happen are when you have um you
know these abductions. Um,
which some people view as positive, but
some people don't. They don't like these
abductions. Um, so yeah, they'll say
things that aren't true. And
>> what
>> um I don't know. They'll say like, okay,
I'll take I'll take an example. I'm not
going to out any experiences that I
know, but I I know a lot. [laughter] So,
at this point, I've had like I don't
know about a thousand people talk to me
about their experiences. So one in
particular regularly gets prophetic
messages. Some of which come true, most
of which are not true. Okay, that means
when when you have one or two prophetic
messages given to you by an anomalous,
you know, being or whatnot and it comes
true, you're willing maybe to believe
it, right? Oh, this is, you know,
telling this is telling me good
information. Um but
then they start not to come true and
then if that person makes this public uh
that person then is you know people
associate them with falsehood and deceit
and that's not a positive thing.
>> Okay. But have you taken into
consideration that that this person
might be mentally ill?
>> Of course. Of course. Yeah. Yeah.
>> This this idea that they're getting all
of these
like whatever it is visions. I mean, how
are they receiving this information? Are
they receiving it telepathically?
Like when you say prophetic?
>> Yeah. Yeah. So the So there are
different So you ask me what kinds of
people like what they would say, right?
When
>> Well, if the if these things are
deceiving them, so they have these
prophetic visions, right? How is how are
these visions
manifesting themselves in their mind?
Yeah.
>> Is it coming as a voice? Are they seeing
an event happen?
>> Okay. So
there are uh there are a variety of ways
in which people receive this type of
information like prophetic information.
Um I would say that some people actually
see things and the beings like impart
telepathically like mind-to- mind
transmission something this is going to
happen [clears throat] and then they
believe it. Okay, this happens within
like angel events like Marian
apparitions. happens to, you know,
people. It happens to people in
abductions as well. And, you know, I I
mean, that's what happens to them. They
see things. They sometimes have visions
in their dreams. So, there's there are a
variety of ways that people
>> Let's stop right there. Visions in their
dreams could also just be dreams. Like,
how can they make a distinction between
just dreams like, "Oh, Godzilla was
chasing me. I was on a skateboard. I ran
into my cousin. We hid in his basement."
and then I woke up. Like that's just a
dream. That's not a prophecy. And if
they're having those dreams as well as
these
visionary dreams that they think are
inspired by
>> some entity,
>> how are they making the distinction
between the two of them if both of them
exist at the same time in the same
person's mind?
>> Yeah. Yeah. So within the culture of
within our culture, we tend to put
dreams in the same category. We say the
dream about Godzilla is like, you know,
all dreams are the same, right? They're
either bad dreams or good dreams are
neutral. Um, within there are other
cultures that distinguish different
types of dreams. And within the western
culture, there have been times when
people have distinguished different
types of dreams. Like say you take the
Old Testament or Hebrew Bible, you have
Joseph, right? Joseph is a guy who's
going to be big uh he's a prophet and he
has dreams where he's able to uh tell
the future and he's able to distinguish
between those dreams. So within certain
cultures even cultures today like
different religious cultures they have
distinctions uh the martu in Australia
uh they have you know they they talk
about the dream time. So, we're kind of
a culture that puts all dreams in the
same category. And granted, that's true.
Uh, in terms of discussing whether or
not people are mentally ill, Travis
Walton's not mentally ill,
>> right? But Travis Walton is not having
prophecies.
>> No, I know, but he's he's one that
doesn't. And there are others who do.
>> I understand. But we got to this place
because you were talking about beings
that deceive.
>> Yes. So, I'm saying that not all of them
deceive. But I'm saying that I'm trying
to explain.
>> I'm trying to ask you. Yes.
>> How are they deceiving?
>> Well, I just told you. So, they'll be
giving people information about the
future. Some of which is correct and
some of which is not.
>> Okay. So, how are they giving them this
information? They giving it to them
telepathically or is it coming to them
in a vision in a dream?
>> It's two very different things, right?
>> Yeah. But that it could be both
depending on the instance,
>> right? But if it's in a dream, how do
they know it's coming from this entity
and not just a dream? That's my point.
like saying they're being deceived.
>> Well, a lot of them won't make that
distinction. And so that's where you
need a
>> the abductees.
>> Yeah.
>> Won't make that distinction
>> because they've never had this happen to
them before. So, of course, they're
going to think this is true. But my
position is that be careful because we
don't know if it's true or if it's not,
>> right? But I mean, how are you making
the distinction between what is just
their imagination and them being
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>> Right? That's the good question. I don't
know.
>> So, how is Gary Nolan saying they lie?
>> Well, he's taking data and he's saying
that they're saying this, you know,
they're telling these people this
information and it's wrong information.
And so, he's not making, you know, he's
not trying to make a big claim. He's
just basically saying, you know, Tucker
asks him why, you know, what kind of
things are they saying? And he said,
well, they're being deceived, right?
They say deceitful things. And my point
that, by the way, getting back to the
original,
>> but it would be it's very frustrating.
Go ahead.
>> No, no, I know you're frustrated, but
the original question here is what is JD
Vance talking about when he's saying
these are demons? And I'm trying to
explain that he's referencing this
theological category that has been
around for a long time. And that is
actually quite useful in adjudicating
what's going on when people are having
these experiences. Now, I'm saying that
I'm not trying to propose that these are
like experiences. Honestly, I wouldn't
want them to happen to me and I don't
wish them upon anyone. But some people
>> You wouldn't want to meet an alien.
Not the aliens that people seem to be
meeting. So,
>> which one would you like to meet?
>> Well, I don't know. I mean,
hypothetically, like, I'm not sure.
>> I like to put it out there. I'm down. If
they want to meet me, I'm down.
>> Okay.
>> I'd love to meet one.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Yeah. I mean, I want to know. I'm not
scared.
>> They don't seem to steal you. They don't
take you away and never bring you back.
They just they just interact with you.
I'm down with that. I mean, we have to
distinguish between Yeah, go for it.
Meet an alien.
>> You don't want that. You wouldn't want
that.
>> Look, if
>> you are a person who writes books about
aliens.
>> Yes, I do write books. Well, somewhat
about aliens. I write about the religion
about aliens.
>> Yes. But a lot of the subject matter has
to do with extraterrestrial intelligence
>> or whatever it is.
>> Yeah. We don't know what it is.
>> It might not be extraterrestrial. It
might be dimensional, right? Yeah. Or it
might be here, something that's of a
superior intellect that's been here all
along.
>> And it might be something within the
category of the pre-ternatural.
>> Right.
>> Yeah. So my point is that if it is if it
whatever it is, I you're right. I've
been studying it and I can say that if
those are the aliens, no, I don't want
to meet them. If the if they're the ones
that like people have come and told me
about and said, I wish this never
happened to me. um you know then no I
don't want to meet the
>> right but that's it's different people
right and different people have
different tolerances for experiences and
when someone says I wish this didn't
happen to me it's because they can't
handle it and whereas other people might
be able to handle it
>> um maybe but like look at the things
that the fighter pilots like uh David
Fraver and um
>> they don't seem to have a problem with
it like they they're they're not saying
I wish this never happened to me. No,
but they are saying that this looks
pretty dangerous. I wouldn't want it to.
First, I I hope that this does this
isn't an enemy technology. They're like,
if that's our if our enemies have this
technology,
>> it's done.
>> It's game over.
>> Yeah. Yeah. So, that's
>> scary. Um and if it's not, then it's
definitely um something that we should
take notice of, right? So if there that
that's what's in our skies and there
have been reports of people there is an
Australian report of pilots who have
passed away because of this type of
thing like they died and so forth. So
how so um I can't actually remember what
it is but it's a it's a report of an
Australian uh young guy who was who
encountered something in the sky and um
he was never found again. And he was
just, you know, what happened? I don't
know. Uh, and
>> he he disappeared in the sky.
>> Yeah. And there are
>> with the jet.
>> I don't know if he disappeared with the
jet.
>> I wish you knew more about this story.
>> I know. I know. [laughter] Maybe someone
could get it up for us and we can look
at it. But it's a really famous It's a
really key. Yeah, it's a really famous
Australian report.
>> Here it is. Uh, it's 1978. 20-year-old
Australian pilot Frederick Valentique.
>> I think it's Valentic. Valentic took off
on a routine training flight over Bass
Strait. Everything seemed normal until
his radio transmissions began.
Valentique reported a strange aircraft
hovering above him with four bright
lights and metallic surfaces moving at
impossible speeds. Then came his final
chilling words. It's not an aircraft.
After that, he vanished completely. His
Cessna was never found despite extensive
searches and no trace of him was ever
recovered. Radar had detected another
object in the area but never interacted
with other flights. To this day, no one
knows if Valente crashed, got lost, or
encountered something far more
mysterious. Even decades later, this
remains one of aviation's most baffling
disappearances, and the last words of a
terrified pilot still haunt those who
hear them. So, there's one guy.
>> I don't know. You can go meet that one,
Joe. And you know what? I think that
>> maybe he's like in a cool place right
now.
>> All right. just chilling, having a good
time in another dimension, hanging out
with these creatures and they're
explaining to him the future of the
universe.
>> But you know that the thing about what I
do is I'm I have a lot of information
that people impart to me that is that I
can't actually talk about, right? And
that sadly that happens to people in
>> because they ask you not to.
>> Yeah. They say I need help with this or
this is my experience and I don't want
it public and so forth. I mean, um,
>> even without disclosing their name.
>> No, no, they I know who they are. And so
I've had people who are pilots, uh, talk
to me. Is this, by the way, coffee?
>> This is ice cold coffee.
>> How's it cold?
>> What?
>> It's ice cold.
>> I boiled it twice.
>> This coffee
>> I'll try to make it again.
>> I mean, I made it today. It's I made I
boiled the
>> ice cold.
>> That's crazy.
>> It's literally ice cold. That's weird.
>> I'll make it.
>> Are you sure?
>> Yeah. I I hit the button twice. I I
>> It definitely degrees.
>> It binged and everything.
>> Must must be broken. I mean, it's crazy
cold. It's like cold water.
>> I'll start it over. Be right back. How
>> weird. But here, I got more information.
Oh, [laughter] couple more descriptions
from that.
>> Maybe it's aliens. They're deceiving us.
They with Jaime's cold water. Um
7:06 p.m. Valentique contacted the
Melbourne air traffic controller Steve
Roby reporting an unidentified aircraft
trailing him at about 4,500 ft. Over the
next several minutes, he described a
long shiny metallic object with a green
light. The craft appeared to be orbiting
above him. It was moving at high speed
and playing some sort of game in quotes.
His engine became rough idling and
coughing. His final words, "That strange
aircraft is hovering on top of me again.
It's hovering and it's not an aircraft."
The transmission ended with 17 seconds
of metallic scraping or keying sounds,
then silence.
>> So, yeah. So this isn't um
[clears throat]
so pilots and families of pilots have
told me things similar to this. Not as
dramatic maybe.
>> Can you get another cup too? I poured
cold coffee in this.
>> So um similar. And so I guess I just you
know it looks pretty grim.
>> That guy that one.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> And there are other
>> that's like the movie Close Encounters
of the Third Kind. I've always wondered
like how much of that movie was there's
so much of that that was based on
previous UFO encounters and and even
figures like Jack Valet. Jacqu Valet
plays an the French
>> scientist in that movie is based on
Jacqu Valet.
>> Yes.
>> And so and there's scenes where these
pilots show up that from like World War
I, you know, and they've been gone
forever and now they're back and they
haven't lost any time. I've always
wondered like how much of this is based
on stories and reports and folklore or
whatever the government knew.
>> Yeah, I think that it's it's based on
stories and things that they like
Jacques has heard and so forth. And by
the way, Jacques thinks it's deceptive
too. So his you know his idea he spent
of course his whole life studying this
and he wrote a book called Messengers of
Deception.
>> Yeah, I think I read that one.
>> Yeah. So, you know, once you do
>> I read a bunch of his books.
>> John Keel John Keel doesn't have a good
idea about these things at all. Um,
thinks they're pretty nasty. Doesn't
want them in, you know, the Moth Man
Prophecy.
>> Yeah. So, he wrote that and that movie
is based on his life. Um, and he's he's
down on it. He's a doomer with respect
to aliens.
>> How so? What is his perspective?
>> Okay. I'm going to give it to you right
now. All right.
>> Okay. Okay, give everything right now.
>> All right, so he calls this it reminds
me of Catholicism in the sense that he
has a category for it. It's called the
sup uh basically the super spectrum.
Okay. And it's it's here with us now.
Just like you said, it's it's around us,
but you and I can't see it. But some
people do see it and some people
interact with it and have like it breaks
into their reality. And for those
people, he thinks that they're unlucky
because all the things that happen to
them like men in black show up. Um he
thinks things like the the beginning of
all religions is basically about someone
who had an interface with a parab being
like one of these uh parahumans in the
super spectrum. So it's kind of like an
invisible reality all around us
according to John Ke. Uh John Keiel was
a pal of of Jacques Valet's uh he's
passed away but his books are really
amazing and if you want to get an idea
about the super spectrum and the
phenomena you should watch that movie of
his called Moth Man Prophecies. It's
it's really good.
>> And so this super spectrum Yeah.
>> like what what does he think that is?
>> So he he thinks that it's a it's a like
a space all around us. It's been here
forever. It controls us. It controls
humanity because it sends things like he
thinks UFOs are part of it. He thinks
the Virgin Mary apparitions are part of
it. He thinks ghosts are part of it. So
any kind of woo thing um is there in the
super spectrum. And sometimes some
people have the ability to see what's in
the super spectrum and they're he thinks
they're cursed. Now he thinks angels are
part of the super spectrum. So he
doesn't make any kind of distinction
between the good things in it and the
bad things. He said they're all bad. If
there's one that appears to be good,
it's actually bad. So again, he started,
you know, he was kind of like a a
Charles Forte guy. So he started to get
a lot of these in, you know, these um
events and you study them and everything
like that. And uh over years he
developed a a theory that these were
nasty things and that they were like
even if they appeared good and that they
they be they were at the beginning of
all religions. All religions come from
the super spectrum. Um obviously not
that part about how it's like
Catholicism but you know religions tend
to have theological categories that talk
about things like the super spectrum. So
what Jacques talks about in his books is
it sounds very similar to you know his
control mechanism and uh is very similar
to John Ke's idea.
>> Well it seems like
just speculating but it seems like we're
dealing with a very limited framework
that we operate in that we as human
beings operate Do you want to take this
Jamie? Do you need this?
>> Okay. um that we operate
in this world of the senses that we
possess, sight, sound, feel, touch, all
that, you know, smell. We we have these
senses for understanding what's around
us, but only those. And it's not capable
of detecting everything that is reality,
everything that is the universe,
everything that is from subatomic
particles to whatever the it is
that we haven't even discovered yet
that's all around us all the time. And
so if there is
the potential for other realms or other
dimensions and these things exist in
some sort of a space where they can
interact and and
traverse in between these dimensions and
interact with with us at will whenever
we can. We're kind of left in this
speculation space where when people have
these very novel and unique experiences
like Travis Walton and then we are
supposed to go, okay, did that happen?
It didn't happen to me, but is he
telling the truth? Okay, maybe he is. If
he is, well, let's see if he lies about
other things. Well, he doesn't seem to
lie. He's been around a long time.
Travis had been around for a long time
telling that story. Like almost 50 years
now, right? Like when was his
experience?
>> I thought it Yeah. 50 years. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
>> Um you would think he would have a few
other fibs.
>> I agree. I agree. And he doesn't. Yeah.
>> If it was a lie, and I don't think it
is, but if it was, that's a big lie to
have only one. Yeah.
>> Only one crazy cockamy lie from 1970
whatever it was.
See, you're what you're doing is you're
this is part of their criteria for
assessing these kinds of events. Okay?
It's called, you know, taking time,
>> right?
>> So over time, so when a when an
anomalous event happens within like say
Christian culture or whatnot.
>> Thank you very much, Jamie. Appreciate
it.
>> The cold was all right, but it's like
it's it's crazy. It's nice cold.
>> That is weird. Yeah,
>> dude. Something's going on. Put your
finger in it. Feel how cold it is. It's
cold like cold water.
>> I understand. I know. I know what
happened.
>> Oh, do you?
>> Yeah.
>> What happened?
>> You have to hit the start button to make
it boil.
>> I didn't hit the start button.
>> Oh, user [laughter] error.
>> But it beeped. I thought you
>> That did. That did beep because it
didn't It was turning off.
>> Okay. This is hot. Here we go.
[clears throat]
>> My bad.
Quiet as the French press. Where were
we?
Um
>> uh the categories.
>> Oh yeah. Yeah. You were basically just
making a movement. A strategy. Uh yeah,
sure. Thank you.
>> Yeah. Like looking at some like I mean
that's my perspective on Bob Lazar.
>> You know Bob Lazar has been telling the
exact same story forever. I've had many
conversations with Bob. I've had dinner
with him. I've hung out with him a few
times. Dinner with him several times.
Hung out with him in the studio. He
showed us uh that most recent
documentary before it was released with
uh Luigi, the guy who made it with him.
I don't, you know, I I know a lot of
people that are full of I meet a
lot of people that are full of
I've had people sit here in front of me
and then somewhere in the conversation
I'm like, "Oh, this person's not being
honest. This is this is some they've got
an agenda. They're pushing some or
they're pretending they know some things
because it sounds good, but they don't
really know some things." I get real
suspicious of people. I'm not suspicious
of him. It's weird. You know, he's he's
obviously incredibly intelligent and
very wellstudied when it comes to
science, when it comes to um you know,
whatever it is, whether it's um
elements, particles, when you know, he
he he understands what he's talking
about in a very deep way. And when he's
explaining these experiences, when he
talks about this craft and his
experiences at S4, he seems to be
telling the truth. And then since then,
we we know first of all that no one knew
about S4 back then, but he did. He knew
where it was. He knew exactly where it
was. And he knew about the flights that
take people out there. He he had a a
total understanding of uh Los Alamos
Labs. I mean, he he went there. He knew
the people that worked there. He knew
how to get around the building. When
George Knapp took him there, he he knew
everything about the facility. Yet, they
claimed that he never worked there. And
then they found him on the employee
roster.
>> So, he did work there. So, they they
lied and they tried to cover up. Why
would they lie and say that he didn't
work there?
>> Yeah.
>> Well, probably because he was involved
in some that they wanted to keep
secret.
>> Yeah. Yeah, that's right.
>> There's a lot of weirdness to the Bob
Lazar story. And then when you see some
of the footage that was released
particularly after the New York Times
story of 2017,
>> the footage that's released mirrors the
way he describes this craft operating.
>> Yeah.
>> And so how would he he guessed correctly
in 1989?
>> Those are all good points. So yeah, I
told you last time I was on here that
Tyler, right, in my American Cosmic book
um told me he that he was the real deal.
Even though I had people who, you know,
Eric Davis and you know, telling me,
"No, Diana, this guy's No, no, I believe
Tyler. So everything that you say I
agree with. Yeah, I don't know. I mean,
>> you're always going to have people when
you have a fantastic story like Bob
Lazar story, you're always going to have
people that want to say that the guy's
full of that there's something
wrong, he's lying, this is not true,
it's fake.
>> But I mean, Eric Davis would be a person
who might know, right?
>> So, he's a physicist who studies this
and even briefs Congress on. But, no, so
I don't know. I I tend to when Tyler
tells me things and now that he's
everything he said kind of has come
true, I believe him, you know, I believe
that is true.
>> But if Bob Bazar is telling the truth,
it's so disturbing the idea that there's
a group of humans that operate in our
government that have information that
the general public does not have and
that they're the gatekeepers of this
information. and they've determined for
whatever reason that either it's not
wise to tell people or it wouldn't
benefit them to tell people. Like
whatever it is, I think it's a crime
against humanity. I I think if you're a
person that knows for a fact that
there's something here other than us
that either visits us or exists amongst
us or travels here from another
dimension, I think you have an
obligation to tell people.
>> But what if it's not that? What if it's
actually something we've created and we
don't want anybody to know about it and
Lazar happened to find out and that's
why we don't want you know I mean think
about it from the perspective of people
who are trying to keep Americans safe.
So just to push back a bit
>> okay go ahead.
>> You know what if that's it?
>> So if that's the case why would they
bring a guy in to tell them how does
this work?
>> Show us how this works because that was
his job.
>> Oh yeah. They brought him in and said,
"Tell us how this works."
>> And like, and he was like, "What are you
talking about? This is ours. It has an
American flag sticker on it." Like, "Do
you know how it works? Why are you
asking me how it works? This seems kind
of crazy."
That's not what you do if you have
super advanced technology. What you do
is you bring in people to improve it and
make it better. You don't bring in
people and say, "How does it work?"
>> Yeah. Okay. Wait, I have a couple of
comments about that.
>> Okay.
>> So, when I first started, I was I was
aware that people I wasn't aware as much
as I should be, [laughter] but I was
aware that people in my position, you
know, who were basically just doing like
academic work on the UFO belief, the
rising UFO belief might have people come
and give me disinformation.
>> 100%. And I I have the same situation.
>> Of course you do. Yeah. So we have to be
that you're talking about discernment
like we have to be super discerning
about who's you know our BS meter has to
like be really
>> well working or working well.
>> Okay. So but
>> the person who took me out to the desert
right with Gary during that time to an
alleged crash site which you know
Jacques then goes out there. Um, he
basically also wants Gary to figure out
this debris. And so I'm thinking we
obviously don't know what we have here.
If he's if it's legit, it could Okay, so
here are my comments about what you just
told me about Lazar. Either they're
setting up this situation where they're
going to have someone like me and Gary
who are like they're trying to backineer
this, right? and were saying that
publicly um without any kind of like
knowledge that it could be disinfo and
then they have Lazar who we're going to
plant then they do this like with
benefits and stuff they plant stuff for
>> Yeah. Yeah. You know benefits um
>> the guy who uh what he had stuff planted
is in his computer. Do you not know
about him?
>> No. What is this called?
>> Oh, it's called Project Beta. Um this is
a this is a book a friend of mine wrote
about um I can't remember. Yeah. So, um
>> Oh, Paul Benovitz. I've heard his name
before.
>> Yeah. You should read this because this
is a disinfo scam on this poor guy who
>> So, Benovitz believed that he had
intercepted communications from alien
spacecraft and discovered a secret
underground facility called Dulce Base.
Duly Dulce Base Dolce.
>> Doli. Is that how you say it?
>> I'd say Dolce, but
>> Dolce U base managed by aliens in
cooperation with the US government. and
his claims appeared in the popular press
in the early 1980s. According to some
sources, benefits was the target of a
government disinformation campaign that
ultimately led to his psychiatric
hospitalization.
Author Greg Valdez proposes that
benefits was targeted for his
investigation of cattle mutilations.
Valdez argues the m mutilations were a
government testing program looking at
the after effects of radiation from
1967's
project gas buggy in which an
underground atomic device was detonated
just 21 miles southwest of Doli. They
were testing the cattle to avoid
panicking the public.
>> Okay, so this um
>> the problem with that story is cattle
mutilations
still go on. This is like completely not
accurate.
>> This is just a brief Wikipedia about
there's probably way more to the story
and
>> Yeah. Yeah. So, you know Dodie? Yeah.
Dodie. You know Dodie, right? The uh
>> the guy who went they they placed
misinformation on his computer so that
he believed that he was um
>> they placed it on his computer.
>> Yeah, they placed it on his computer.
Really? They went into his house when he
wasn't there and put it on there.
>> And what did they put on his computer?
they put on all this information about
um a like that he was in touch with
these aliens. So they they basically
cultivated his belief that he was in
touch with aliens. They did that
purposefully and Dodie um Dod's first
name. Oh gosh, I can't
>> Dodie.
>> No. Um he's really famous within
Euphology because he's a misin guy.
>> So, but back to
>> he's a misinfo guy purposefully.
>> Yeah. intentionally placing
misinformation out into the public about
UFOs, which is a thing. It does.
>> Is he still alive?
>> Yeah, he's still alive.
>> And that's what he does for sure.
>> Richard, he used to Yeah, Richard.
Richard. Yeah, he for sure does that.
>> Um,
>> how do you know he does that?
>> What do you mean? Everybody,
>> what do you mean? What do you mean
>> that? I'm surprised you don't know that
he does that.
>> I'm speaking sometimes when I talk I'm
speaking for the entire public that
probably doesn't know what we're talking
about. And I think it's probably good
that we fill them in.
>> Yeah. Sorry. Sorry. Okay. So, Richard
Dodie is has come out and said this is
what he does and I know people who know
him like the entire group in you know
the invisible college people with how
and they all know who he is.
>> Okay.
>> And uh Kit offered to introduce him to
me by the way Kate Green. So, and I and
by the way all of these people are
people who work on the used to work on
the program ATIP and so forth
>> uh to study UFOs. But my point though
here in talking about this was what if
Lazar was a person like me and Gary who
was being given information were
credible, right? He's not so credible,
but like you know he's he's this person
that's been given information and placed
out there so that and he's just on the
edge of credibility just so you know
he's credible but then he's not credible
so that he could be taken down if
necessary. That's how they get this
information out there. Now, who am I
talking about? They So, what I'm trying
to say is that what I've observed is
that the government isn't unified in
this whole UFO thing. They're fighting
against each other. I try to stay out of
their crosshairs. Frankly, what they're
doing though is that every time somebody
comes out and says, you know, here are
the new UFO files. I'm studying them and
so forth, then they get taken out by
like counter intelligence. So it's like
intelligence and counter intelligence.
So that it's really confusing. The end
result is total confusion and you really
have to have an ability like to
understand like your discernment has to
be welldeveloped.
>> Right? So I believe that I believe that
there is disinformation and deception. I
think that's a great strategy. If you
want to make something look ridiculous,
you take truth and then you attach a
bunch of fantastic, ridiculous claims to
that truth. And so that it dismisses all
of it, right? Because it's all in the
same category and it's all easily
debunked. Like, oh, this is the same guy
that also said that, so this is
nonsense. Right.
>> That's exactly right. Uh Tyler used to
say, we're we hide truth in a circle of
confusion.
>> Yeah.
which makes sense if they're trying to
>> Yeah, that's what they do, right? I
mean, I don't know anymore. Like today,
like Jacques at one point, uh, many
years ago decided that the field of
euphology was so confusing that he
wanted to go back before the industrial
revolution and do UFOs from a long time
ago. And he wrote Wonders in the Sky,
>> all about that. stopped at like I think
it was like 1860 or something like that,
>> right?
>> And so he did that and I feel like I've
done that too. Like I started that way
actually. Um and I wasn't looking for
UFOs. So I saw you know so in a sense I
understand that move because
>> when you say you weren't looking for
UFOs, what were you looking for? Oh,
well my first the first part of my
academic career was about looking at
souls from purgatory and Catholic things
like you know what Catholics thought
about things that they experienced like
angel contact events. Um and that's when
I started to take a log of these aerial
phenomena. I did not know what they
were. And so historically you can see it
all over the place in the records that
aren't digitized. So there are a lot of
records like people that say, "Oh, we
have, you know, AI has everything of
human all of human knowledge." No. Have
they never been to an archive? An
archive is a really old library. There's
a bunch of stuff there that's not
digitized and that's still human
knowledge.
>> And so what were you looking for?
>> Oh, okay. So back then, this is in my
book on purgatory. I was looking I was
trying to find out why purgatory was a
thing for Catholics for many, many
years. And then after the 1960s, people
rarely um talked about it as much. So,
by the way, I'll get a lot of hate from
people about this because Catholics who
do do devotions to souls in purgatory
for souls in purgatory will say, "No, we
still do this, Diana. I know that." But
the emphasis like Catholic churches used
to have a special place in the church
for these devotions. They we don't have
that here. And so, I wanted to know what
happened. And so what I did was I spent
10 years going through records and
archives all over the place. And uh and
I I found an answer to that. But I also
found a bunch of aerial phenomena that
people didn't know, you know, they were
like looking up the sky too back then.
And when they saw something in the sky,
they couldn't like place. Well, what is
this? They'd interpreted as like a soul
from purgatory. You know, we need to
pray that soul back into purgatory
because, you know, sometimes these
things would harass people. They'd come
down like orbs and harass people and
they just assumed it was like a bad
spirit or something like that.
>> So, I took all of this down because I
thought it was really strange and I
didn't I didn't want to put it in my
book.
>> Um, but I wanted to do something with it
at some point. Uh, so when I I had not I
didn't believe in UFOs. I had never
thought about UFOs, but I showed the log
to a friend after my purgatory book was
published and he said, "Oh, this looks
like Stephen Spielberg films." And I
thought he was crazy. So that's how I
started studying UFOs.
>> Oh
>> yeah, that's how I got into it. So I was
already doing that. Jacques was one of
the first people I actually wrote a hard
letter to, sent it through the mail to
him and uh that's how I met him.
>> So Jock's books, what's with what is
interesting is these old stories because
the old stories that go back to 1700s
and the 1800s, they mirror these UFO
encounters.
>> Yeah. Yeah, that's right. That's what my
work did. Yeah,
>> it's a very similar pattern which is
also strange because
if you think about human beings, the
exponential increase in technological
ability that we have just from the 1800s
to today, far superior technology. But
wouldn't would you assume that UFOs
would also have this exponential
increase in their technological ability?
>> Yeah, definitely. But yet the stories
seem very similar, which is weird,
right? Because if it's the same kind of
craft and the same kind of experiences
and the same kind of
>> like wouldn't they get better at it?
Like isn't there don't they have the
same ability to improve?
>> They might be better at it. They might
be better at it. We just are not good at
ascertaining if they have gotten better
at it. But so what if and this is kind
of what I've been exploring recently.
What if the you know our growth in
technology is pretty amazing. What if
the only way they can actually interface
with us in any super meaningful way
that's not creepy, right? What if it's
through AI? What if that so if religion
was a way for us to communicate with
non-human intelligences that kind of
evolved in different places, right? It's
like a technology itself, right?
Religion becomes these ways. You know,
if you look around and you see I noticed
that you had some cool Buddhist statues
out there. All right. So, if you look
around at religion, what is it that
people in religion do? A lot of them
pray in certain ways. Well, like why are
they doing that? what is prayer anyway?
Um some of the uh so you can see that
there's something that they're trying to
do. They're trying to interact contact
there's like a contact with these and so
what if AI all of a sudden is a
different form of contact. Um and I'll
give you a reason why I think this way
or that I'm speculating about it. Um
when I started to ask the people who
should know like Louzando and you know
the and before that Tyler and you know
um how put off and uh people like that
tell me what best if you were to
describe what it is we're dealing with
what best is the description and they
would always point me in the direction
of science fiction and they would say
read this read that and I was like
science fiction okay and I'd read it and
it would inevitably point to like a
technology that helps interface humans
with it. So that it's not us interfacing
because perhaps you remember you talked
about those faculties that you know
human beings have these faculties for
understanding reality but we can't
understand reality in its full reality
right we can't do that because we're
constrained by the ways in which we
perceive things those are the perceptual
faculties
>> um what if AI becomes a perceptual
faculty for us and we're able then to
you know interact with it so perhaps it
has has evolved and it's helped us
evolve too.
>> So that's what I'm trying to say. That
was a long answer to your to your
comment.
>> So perhaps AI is a bridge for helping us
interact with these things
>> communicate.
>> Okay.
Um so as far as what the government
knows and then deception
>> Yeah.
>> Why do you think that they don't
disclose all the information?
My personal opinion.
>> Yeah. [laughter]
>> Okay. So, this is nothing that I can
point to. Of course, I can't. You know,
there's no source for it.
>> Um, my personal opinion is because this
is uh above government. It's not theirs
to disclose. The government can't
disclose something that's not theirs to
disclose.
>> And what what do you mean by that? Um, I
mean that there's probably a group of
people that um
have this information or have parts of
the information. I don't even know if
one person has the whole story. It's
super compartmentalized. But my
intuition is that it's well, we know
that there are parts of it that are so
highly classified, right? We know that.
Mhm.
>> And so, um, yeah, it's like, you know,
they call presidents short- timerrs and
so forth. They're they're not read in
quote unquote to the to the program,
>> right?
>> So, I would What if it's like it's been
around for a long time and the people
who know about it have been around for a
long time, too? What if that's the case?
So, after after I um after I published
American Cosmic in 2019, I met other
people. So, you know, I met people who
indicated to me that they just basically
wanted me to not write anything else
about this stuff. They just were like,
"Why don't you just focus on what you
you know, your your Catholic stuff and
just like don't don't do this."
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>> And who did that?
>> Yeah. Yeah. Some people that I had met.
So um they they're people that are
associated with the government in the in
the fact that they're part of
intelligence communities and you know so
I was interested in what they had to say
and to me what they didn't tell me
anything Joe so I'm not going to tell
any secrets or anything that I don't
have them but um they they indicated to
me that
yeah this is this is like nobody's going
to know about
So people like uh
yeah so that's that's what I that
happened after American Cosmic part of
that went into encounters but not
>> so they what how did they
express this to you that they don't
think that you should be talking about
this?
>> Well they they didn't express it that
way. They just said that my time would
be better spent looking into other
aspects of uh religion. Did you say why?
>> Of course. I wanted to know.
>> And what did they say to that?
>> Well,
they didn't really say they didn't
really answer that question, but I guess
you could say that my experience with
them was my answer. My experience with
them was that
um
this was something that people weren't
going to know about and that these
secrets wouldn't be told. So you like
they're essentially saying to you,
you're wasting your time
>> pretty much. Yeah.
>> We're not going to tell anybody. You're
not going to get any more information.
What's out there is out there and that's
it.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> H what's your opinion like when you know
one of the things I'm I assume you saw
the age of disclosure the documentary.
>> Yeah, definitely. One of the things that
I thought was really uh interesting and
made sense in the age of disclosure was
this thought that if there are these
hidden programs
they uh have essentially misappropriated
funds and lied to Congress in order to
fund these things and all these things
are huge crimes and if they don't have
amnesty they're never going to disclose.
This is like Lou Alzando talked about or
all these different people talked about
this like the only way you're ever going
to get this information is by
giving some sort of mass amnesty to all
these people that are involved in these
programs so that they never have to
worry about being prosecuted. My problem
with that is when I hear something like
that and you're talking about
misappropriation of funds, you're
talking about lying to Congress, you're
talking about enormous amounts of money
that are involved in these programs.
Where did that money go? And did that
money all go to those programs or all
those really ethical people involved? Or
did a bunch of people get rich
bullshitting about this stuff? And is
that why they're calling for amnesty so
that they don't have to worry about
being prosecuted for stealing money? And
that's a lot of this, you know,
obfuscating, a lot of this confusion, a
lot of this misinformation is because
there's a lot of people that are in deep
if this gets disclosed.
So basically they're in deep if
they if the thing that gets disclosed is
that they've been stealing money.
>> Yeah. Well, listen, if you have complete
total autonomy, you you get an enormous
amount of money and you're working on
these programs, you you know, no one
knows where this money is going. And we
have a problem with that already, right?
Like we have a problem with the Pentagon
never passes budgets. Where' the money
go?
You know, that's like part of the issue.
What is this, Jamie?
>> Uh, long hidden UFO information at the
center of Trump push uh to free former
officials. Former employees can now
share information
>> with Arrow or the Purse Task Force
without fear of violating agreements.
So, this is new.
>> Yes, last week.
>> Oh, interesting. So, no one's officially
come forward as far as
>> Okay, that's but look how it says that
there. Scroll back up. It says without
violating agreements. That's not the
same thing I'm talking about.
>> It's not exactly, but this they have
NDAs and it's uh
>> right. That's another issue. But what
that doesn't it doesn't exonerate them
from lying to Congress or
misappropriating misappropriating funds.
That's part of the problem is that if
they have these
programs that are hidden and there's no
congressional oversight, there's no they
don't have to be audited. If
in all these in any government program
that has no oversight, you're going to
have waste and you're probably going to
have fraud and you're probably going to
have a bunch of people that are, you
know, essentially beyond reproach. They
have so much power and no oversight at
all. Like, put a little bit over here,
put a little bit over there, a little
bit of this, a little bit of that. Next
thing you know, these people are wealthy
for some reason that you can't explain.
Like, look what's going on with
Congress, with insider trading or people
that are making $170,000 a year worth
hundreds of millions of dollars, and no
one can explain why.
>> Yeah. Yeah. You got you have to imagine
that these people would also be tempted
to do that if they were involved in
these programs. So even if these
programs are real, let's say it, let's
say the research, the back engineering
research costs a billion dollars. Let's
make it say it cost three billion.
Where's that money going? Where's it all
going? Where'd it go?
>> You know, that's part of the problem
with having no oversight.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> No auditing, no oversight, and a bunch
of people that have
>> complete ability to hide anything
they're doing,
>> including
>> what they do with the money.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> And so if they've been doing that for
decades,
who knows how much fraud is involved.
>> Yeah. You have to assume like these are
human beings and human beings if they
have that level of power
>> and that level of secrecy
>> and no oversight at all.
And also they're working with defense
contractors. They're working like you
know
>> overse offshore accounts. There's a lot
of weird goes on.
>> Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. It could
be that. Do you think it is?
>> Yes.
>> Really?
>> Yes.
>> You think I think that's a factor?
>> Okay. Hey. All right.
>> I think that's a major factor in this
whole thing.
>> All right. So,
>> I think that's the that's the I think
that is probably the reason why you have
these calls for amnesty
because if you if you're talking about
amnesty like amnesty for what you guys
do something, what' you do?
Misappropriation of funds, lying to
Congress. Okay. So, you you don't want
to be in trouble for misappropriating
money and you don't want to be in
trouble for lying to Congress. What if
that does that include all the fraud
that potentially could have taken place?
>> And I'm not accusing anyone of fraud. I
don't I don't know anything. This is
pure tinfoil hat. Let's just talk
That's all this is.
>> Yeah. Yeah. So, you think it's just
basically a big like almost like a Ponzi
scheme.
>> I think that has to be an aspect of it
because that's an aspect of it in almost
all aspects of government.
>> I hear what you're saying. I guess uh
>> just think of the problem that was
exposed with Doge
>> with the NOS's where you find out that
there's literally billions of dollars
gets distributed and there's no record
of it. There's no receipts.
>> The bottom of that article here,
>> uh during the same event, former Air
Force intelligence officer Grush renewed
his allegations that the secret UAP
programs had operated outside normal
congressional oversight, calling it a
real fraud, waste, and abuse issue.
There it is. and claiming his
investigation uncovered slush funds to
the tune of billions of dollars perom
for these activities. The Pentagon has
disputed Gush's central claims and Arrow
has said its investigations found no
evidence, no verified evidence of
extraterrestrial technology or credible
evidence that the government has
secretly recovered or reverse engineered
craft of nonhuman origin. But yet there
he has talked about programs that he has
been read in on that are back
engineering programs.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I know. So like is it is it
slush fun? Yeah. To call it a slush fund
I think is really an interesting you
know term because that indicates that
that they're not doing anything right.
>> Doesn't necessarily. It could indicate
that they are doing something, but
they're also profiting wildly off of
this something that they're doing
because they don't have any oversight,
right? Which is when you get creepy
people that have incredible power like
that. That's just normal. Absolute power
corrupts. Absolutely. What's more
absolute power than you're
>> You have massive amounts of money, a
blank check, and
>> you're also you're in the super
secret top secret group. Yeah,
>> you're in the club of the people that
know the wink and the nod and you you're
going into these vaults in the
middle of the mountain and you're
looking at an alien spacecraft and
you've got bodies that are in
formaldahhide or whatever the
they're doing with them. You know, you
would think those guys could do whatever
the they want.
>> Yeah, that's right.
>> They're humans.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> And they're men.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> They're men that are probably very
ambitious and wealthy.
>> Yeah. Yeah. and they want to be more
wealthy and they got all this money
coming in and they're working on these
programs and then they can occasionally
show you some stuff. Look, this is what
we've discovered. This is what we've
figured out. This is what we can apply
to military technology.
>> Okay, so maybe Okay, so maybe that's it.
>> Pure speculation, right? No accusations.
I'm just saying if you had to look at it
from the least charitable perspective,
you have to say that's probably an
aspect of what we're dealing with. And
that seemed to me when I watched Age of
Disclosure from a cynical perspective,
I'm like, what is this? What is this
request for amnesty? What's what's the
Amnesty is a weird thing to say, you
know, like if you're People get
suspicious when you have amnesty?
>> Mhm.
>> Why do you want amnesty?
>> Yeah.
>> You're worried about like, are they
really going to prosecute people that
have misappropriated funds and lied to
Congress because they have alien
spacecrafts?
Is that really what Congress is going to
do now? They're going to go after these
people and say, "I look, I know you
finally did tell us that we have been
visited, that we have these down alien
crafts, but we're going to put you in
jail because you didn't tell us before
and because you lied to Congress and you
use these funds to backineer these
crafts."
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Does that really make sense that they
would put these people in jail for these
top secret government programs?
>> No. No.
>> Yeah,
>> I agree. Um,
>> I just think if you just factor in
people,
>> factor in people and blank checks,
>> I always say someone's get it's not like
these are the most benign altruistic
people that they like they're super
charitable and they only want to do the
right thing for humanity and they're
they're very comfortable with their
meager government salary.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Probably not. Right.
>> Right. probably when you think about
human nature and people when they have
access to money especially that kind of
money that's crazy money
>> all right so if I can offer my like
speculation totally speculative
>> totally okay
>> I like I like this kind of talk
>> okay okay so remember that I start out
not caring about UFOs at all not
believing nothing like that right
>> just kind of doing my boring Catholic
scholarship stuff right boring well yeah
I didn't think so but you know geeky
stuff Right. Right.
>> Okay. Not interested in that scene.
All of a sudden become realize that
there's this historical continuity,
right, in the records
>> and there's physical evidence.
>> Yeah. Yeah. There's physical evidence
>> which is important for people to know
that maybe if they've never heard this
subject before and this is the first
podcast they've listened to. When we're
talking about Gary Nolan and some of the
things they've found at these crash
sites, we're talking about alloys that
you can't make here.
>> Yeah. There there's something about them
where they're layered at an atomic
level. It's there's some weird to
them.
>> That's right. And so I try to keep
myself
autonomous from the euphology narrative
either proposed by the government. By
the way, a lot of people are like it's
government sponsored. There's a lot of
government sponsored stuff out there
that you're getting. None of my stuff is
government sponsored. like I did this
totally autonomously on my own. Still do
completely, you know, I don't have a
publicist, you know, I'm not like out
there doing it like that. Um, that said,
I've met a lot of people and I've seen a
lot of things now since 2012 about the
topic.
>> And so, if I were to speculate about it,
and let me just describe some of the
things that that come into my brain
every once in a while when I'm thinking
about it, I'm like, okay. Um, you know
how Eric Weinstein talks about like he
would know the smart people, he would
know the physicists who would be on this
case, right? He would know these guys
because he knows physics. He's super
intelligent,
>> you know? Um,
>> but I don't think he does know them. And
part of the reason I say that is because
this is in 2014 or so, so a long time
ago. um when I'm you know when you're
doing something for so long and you're
in this community of people and you you
can't make stuff up like stuff happens
you were like that really happened and
one of the things that happened was that
I got to see that there were some you
know laboratories associated with the
government that people couldn't get into
you know it was like you couldn't go to
those and the people that worked there
were the best of the best like the the
laser people the people who knew lasers
and who, you know, they were better than
anybody at Yale. They were better than
anybody at Harvard or Stanford or
anything like that. They were the best.
Um, through knowing [snorts] me, Gary
got to go there. So, I have a witness,
you know, and so because they were
cultivating him. They were trying to
figure out if he could actually help
with with figuring out what this was.
So, those things are things that I noted
and I, you know, kept in the my file in
my brain. Right. Okay. Well, that's
weird. Uh there uh think about people
like Harold Malgrim, right? So, you
know, he had been a um he's a person who
is uh was an official to adviser to a
couple different presidents in the
capacity of military. So, super high
level clearance and everything like
that. He had been recruited, he was a
physicist at Cornell. He'd been
recruited when he was 27. So, this
happens. So, people do get taken into
these I don't know what you'd call them,
programs or whatnot, and they do work
and they have these clearances and
they're hidden just like um they're
hidden. Sometimes they're given fake job
titles and so forth, so people wouldn't
think. I see people online now saying,
"Oh, that person doesn't have that
clearance because they had this job."
How do you know? Like, seriously, how do
you know that? because the government is
really good at hiding these kinds of
things. So over the years, that was a
long time ago when this happened to me,
2014, I started to form an idea, you
know, and it wasn't just that, it was
other types of of things that I learned
that there's something going on for
sure. And it is what they're saying, but
maybe it's not I don't know what they're
reverse engineering, if it's anomalous,
you know, from another planet or what it
is. Uh, I do know that they're they're
doing something and they've been doing
it and they're probably going to
continue to do it and that I don't think
they're going to share.
>> Yeah. And why would they? Especially if
it affects national defense.
>> And so part of what's happening now, you
know, with uh rich people getting into
this and trying to get the people in the
program to come out because that's what
that looks like when David Gush talks
about that. I'm thinking they're just
trying to get these people in the
program to come out and to, you know, so
they can they can get the technology,
right? And that's not I don't think
that's going to happen. I don't think
that's going to happen.
>> So, what do you think happens? Do you
think that they find very talented
physicists that are in universities and
they have these outreach programs where
they look for these people that are very
talented and they recruit them very
early on?
>> I think so. I think that they get
recruited really young. Uh 27 is
probably old to get recruited. Uh
>> which probably makes sense. Get them as
early as possible before they
>> get into the program
>> before they get involved in any sort of
commercial venture or any other company.
So, in um in my second book that I
written about it called Encounters,
there's a chapter called the Children of
the Invisles where I talk about um this
potential speculative group and it's
total speculation.
Have you heard Eric Weinstein's take on
there's a particular upstate university
uh upstate New York University that has
an completely overqualified physics
department that's also attached to a
hedge fund that does Bernie Maidoff type
numbers that don't make any sense at
all?
>> No, I didn't I haven't seen that one.
Yeah, it's he talks about it and this
one particular university he is keen on
this might be something
>> because he's like it doesn't make any
sense that these insanely talented
physicists are all in this one place and
no real research comes out of it. no
real nothing gets done, but yet they're
also attached to this hedge fund that
does these insane numbers that don't
make any sense at all, which is a great
way to just funnel money through and
keep these programs running that are
completely top secret. And these people
aren't publishing. They don't have
anything. These insanely talented
physicists are not really getting
anything done. [laughter]
>> Yeah. They get fired at my university if
they weren't publishing.
>> Right. Right. There's something there's
something weird about it, he says. Yeah.
>> And he keeps pointing to this one. Do
you remember that? What what they
>> Stony Brook and Renaissance Technologies
is the
>> Yes, that's it.
>> He's He's like, if there's something
there, if there's a there there, that's
where it's at.
>> Yeah. Which makes sense. Like if you had
some big time program like
um I know a guy who uh was a professor.
Uh so he was uh teaching at a
university. I probably shouldn't say
what he's teaching. He was also a CIA
operative. So he would literally um be
involved in gunfights and then a
week later he would be, you know, they
would extract they
take people. They they' do all this
crazy CIA super secret operative A
week later he's teaching university
courses.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Like Indiana Jones on steroids.
like this guy was like really doing that
>> which is like wo okay. So if you have
this university where you have these
people that are teaching these classes
like this is and they're probably
looking for super super talented
physicists that are coming up to recruit
into these programs. But what they're
doing as far as their, you know, air
quotes research that's public is
nonsense. And what they're what they're
really doing is working on something
probably some sort of very novel
propulsion system.
>> And that's what Weinstein thinks.
And he thinks that a lot of this stuff
that people are seeing in the sky is
probably ours.
>> So that's right. So say it's ours and
say he's right. Okay. So, but I guess my
point is,
are you, you know, then shouldn't that
be okay? Shouldn't we be okay with that?
Because isn't, aren't they, aren't we
Americans? Aren't they like helping us?
>> Well, if that's the case, yes,
certainly. Why would we try to get them
to come out and, you know, and like
force them out?
>> Well, we certainly don't want that
information to get to China or Russia.
we if there is some sort of a race to
develop a novel propulsion system like
who was it Jamie that was in here that
was saying that one of the uses for this
technology would be instantaneous
delivery systems of nuclear weapons.
So you know when we're talking about
these propulsion systems that
essentially they're folding space
folding space and time or they can
instead of going from point A to point B
which is like you know a thousand lighty
years instead of doing it in however
much time it would take to travel that
through even if you're going the speed
of light you go instantaneously because
you're essentially folding space and
time and just appearing in this new
place. Well, you could do that with a
bomb. And so instead of like a missile
having to fly to Beijing or Moscow, it
instantaneously arrives and detonates.
And that this was one of the proposed
uses of this technology, which is
terrifying.
>> Yeah.
>> That these knuckleheads are taking this
incredibly potent technology that these
extraterrestrials have used to get here
from another planet. And we were like,
wouldn't that be a dope way to deliver a
bomb?
>> Yeah.
>> And then they're working on that.
>> Yeah.
>> But it's also, isn't it their
responsibility to do that? Because if
China figures out how to do that or
Russia figures out how to do that or
Iran figures out how to do that,
>> you've got a real problem.
>> So this was what remember you asked me
those people that I met like after
American Cosmic gets published. All
right. So this is pretty much the line
they gave me was that Diana
it's best to talk about this stuff about
morality and you know Christian stuff
and so forth because look what we're
doing is we're keeping us safe in the
United States and do you really want uh
a non-ally to have you know an enemy to
have this technology? I'm like well no
of course not you know I mean so yeah
what can you say to an argument like
that other than well yeah that would be
terrible. Well, if I believe them and if
they're being if it's true and they're
just looking out for the interest of
America, 100% I'm with them. I get it. I
understand. I mean, I don't know.
>> I know. That's the problem is I'm never
going to point fingers and go, "Fuck
those guys. They need to tell us
everything."
>> Right.
>> The problem is you're telling everybody
in the world everything, then you're
telling China everything. You're telling
Russia everything.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's right.
>> I get it. And I get that. That's why if
say the Roswell crash of 1947, if that
is legit and if they really did fly it
out to Wright Air Force Base in, you
know, two separate planes just in case
one of them crashed, if that's really
the the case and the the the lore is
that Truman met them there and that they
disclose that they have this craft and
they have this material. You have so
many different people that were at that
crash site that have very similar
stories.
>> Yeah. And then you also have this
very
shortly after that you have technologies
emerge.
>> You have fiber optics, transistors, a
lot of and weird that's attached to
them in terms of like the providence of
like how these technologies were evolved
and developed.
>> There's some sketchy involved in
that. And the allegation is that this is
something that's been reverse
engineered.
And then okay, well you you don't want
that getting to someone else. Yeah.
>> Right. If if we are
>> involved in conflicts with other
nations, and we most certainly are, why
would you you got to keep that stuff
secret? So I get that argument as well.
And if so, if extraterrestrial
technology is real and that we do have
crafts and saying extraterrestrial is
just a placeholder word for whatever it
is, interdimensional, whatever it is,
some super advanced nonhuman
intelligence created technology. If it
does exist, yeah, I would say from a
national security perspective, yeah,
you've got to keep that under wraps.
Especially if we don't truly understand
it. If we don't truly understand it,
we're not really capable of making it.
Yeah.
I mean, the way Lazar describes the
craft itself, it was like it was 3D
printed. Well, there was no 3D printing
in 1989, right? Well, there is now that
we
>> that we know of, but there is now. But
that's the thing is this that we know
of. There's only so far you can go with
that that line of thinking is when you
go back far enough it doesn't work. So
like you go back to 1947 1947 you're
dealing with propeller planes.
Okay, propeller planes and then also
novel propulsion systems that can inst
instantaneously travel from one place to
another. You know, they can go like what
happened with the Tic Tac where where
they have it on radar going from 50,000
ft down to sea level in less than a
second.
>> So that's that's technology that we had
in 2004.
That doesn't seem likely, right? And it
it might be the case, but then you go
far enough back to like um
like the the what was the guy's name?
Kenneth Arnold.
>> Yeah.
>> Th those sightings which was what 47
>> 47. Okay. Well, that's there's no way
>> like a couple months like
>> right
>> after Roswell before Roswell I can't
remember.
>> So that's there's no way we didn't have
that technology then. There's no way
they would have such superior advanced
technology that our fighter jets look
like toys. They just whiz past them.
>> Well, I hear that, but but I don't know
if you've seen the images of Kenneth
Arnold's plane, but it looks like that
German fighter plane. So, it looks
exactly like that. Maybe we reverse
engineered that and had it. I don't
know. I'm just saying that
>> Kenneth Arnold's plane was only capable
of going like how fast? It wasn't that
fast. And this thing these these crafts
were going way faster. Yeah. This is
what he said he saw. Like he's got a
propeller plane.
>> I did just look up the first uh turbo
jet engine plane was 1941.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Whoa. I didn't know that. Were they
using that for fighter jets back then?
>> 1947 was there was them flying around
World War II.
>> Uh in 47 they had fighter jets that had
um
propeller turbo jet. Yeah. But a a turbo
jet is a propeller. per uh here's the
>> like if you fly I've flown in turbo jet
propeller planes before and they're
pretty dope.
>> Those are the pictures coming up.
>> Oh, okay. So, that does look like a jet
engine.
>> It's definitely something different,
>> right? Was that What did the planes look
like back then? So, pull up a a fighter
jet from 1947. See, those are
>> the It was a It was a specific plane
that looked exactly like what he saw. It
was a German plane. Well, that one that
Jamie just pulled up is pretty crazy
because it's circular.
>> No, I know. But the other ones looked I
mean, literally exactly. They were
called uh they uh wing planes cuz they
they looked like wings basically.
>> I understand. But even that those right
there, those are still propeller planes.
>> That is what Kenneth Arnold says he saw.
That's totally different. Yeah. Like
whatever the that is. It's crazy.
And he saw that thing skipping across
the sky.
>> Okay. Wait a minute, Jamie. If you can
Keep going. So, the idea that our best
>> it's ho something.
>> Okay. The idea that our best is
propeller planes, but yet we also have
these things with no visible means of
propulsion that are all flying at 1,000
miles an hour or whatever it was.
Several thousand miles an hour.
>> Couldn't have been quiet either,
>> right? [clears throat] Yeah. It's just
weird. It's if you go back far enough,
it doesn't make sense that there's
superior technology that's not being
utilized ubiquitously across the entire
military.
>> Well, I think that most likely if they
they have something that they want.
Okay. So, this is again speculation. All
right.
>> Right.
>> I don't know. I entertained the idea.
>> This is 80 years ago.
>> No, I know that I entertained the
possibility that they had some pretty
amazing stuff.
>> I don't
>> Okay. I don't I just don't think that's
possible.
>> I think that we still have it. And
that's what
>> maybe today I I would say in 2026, 80
years later with all the technological
advancement, maybe there's some crazy
that they have today. And I bet
there is. Look at this thing.
>> This is a German bomber from
>> That's what I'm saying. Just like that.
>> All right. You got to believe that.
>> But that's just You're a witness. No.
No. That's an
>> That's not a Is that a photograph?
>> No, they have a photograph of those. I
am not kidding.
>> Stick them with your I was trying to
just start with that. No.
>> Yeah. So, look at that upper left hand
corner. It says secret Nazi UFO.
>> Yeah.
>> But are these photographs?
>> Yes, they're photograph. It could be AI,
but that's
>> No, it's not.
>> I'm just And I'm just to be uh
>> Okay. Well, what does it say up there?
It says uh a Horton
229. A German prototype.
>> Yeah.
>> Plane from 1945.
>> So, so literally, See, I'm telling you,
Joe, this looks exactly like Arnold's uh
It does UFO.
>> It really does. a jet powered flying
wingcraft. That looks that literally
looks exactly like it.
>> So, if I'm right about that, then you
should like listen to my speculations,
>> right? But how fast did this go?
>> All right. Let's see.
>> That's pretty dope.
>> Could have been pushing it to the limit.
>> I can't believe they had something like
that,
>> you know?
>> How are the Germans so advanced?
>> I know.
>> And so evil at the same time. Like, what
the hell?
>> Okay. Designed.
Where? Where is it?
>> 560 mph.
>> 600 mph.
>> And how fast was Ken Kenneth Arnold's
craft able to go? 621 miles an hour.
>> Wow.
>> So, you know, he saw these in
information. So, we were most likely
doing something with those.
>> We
>> what? United States.
>> The United States. So, you think that we
had acquired that technology?
>> We did. We we acquired it. We were
utilizing it.
>> Right. So, Operation Paperclip, we
brought over a bunch of these Nazi
scientists. And so, you think that what
he saw was these Nazi crafts.
>> Yeah.
>> That they had
>> Yes, I think so. But that doesn't take
out a lot of weirdness about it because
he also had a lot of very strange
anomalous experiences, men in black
experiences, paranormal experiences.
>> Kenneth Arnold did.
>> Yeah. So, and Yeah. And to to him, he
interpreted this as being religious. Is
there a video of that German thing
flying?
>> I was just looking at the the first
comment says, "It should be noted this
is a full-scale mockup made for radar
testing by North the Brumman for a net
geo documentary, not the actual HO229,
that picture I put up."
>> Oh, interesting. Is there any actual
documented photographs of the HO229?
>> Um, that's I'm going to go with if there
was only three of them and they weren't
ours. So we know that jets existed in 41
and so and the the Nazis had really
advanced technology in terms of
automobiles, in terms of engineering,
rocketry. They were way more advanced
than us, which is why we took all those
Nazi scientists.
>> Yeah.
>> From Operation Paperclip
>> and ignored their war crimes so that
they could work for NASA. And they had a
they had an important uh weapon too that
we never talk about that we also took a
form of propaganda.
They had propaganda specific form not
the kind that you can Google and see
Nazi propaganda and stuff like that.
Like a really effective form of
propaganda.
>> What how in what way would they have?
>> Um so that's another thing. So uh
>> so this is an actual photograph of it.
>> Whoa. So, if you saw that thing flying
through the sky in 1947, you would
probably think that's from another
planet.
>> That totally looks like an a space. I
remember um after September 11th in
2001, I was filming Fear Factor and we
were in uh Southern California near
[sighs] what is the base that's out
there? Is it Edwards? Um, we're we're
near one of the Air Force bases and I
saw a stealth bomber fly overhead and it
looks like it's from another planet. It
looks so crazy. We stopped filming. We
were like, "Dude, what the It
looks like Darth Vader's flying it."
>> Yeah.
>> You know, it's so weird.
>> Yeah.
>> It doesn't seem like it's ours now. I
know it is and I know they exist, but if
I didn't
>> and I saw that.
>> Yeah. So, you got to assume also that if
I saw it in 2001,
>> maybe they had it in 1999, maybe they
had it in 1989, maybe they had it in 79.
Yep.
>> Maybe they had something like that.
>> So, that article says that we found that
prototype in Germany, brought it back,
and then this is what North potentially
made after.
>> So, this is a this is a wing powered by
propellers, though.
>> We didn't know how to make those jets,
>> right? And so they probably put the jets
on it later. But that looks alien.
>> Yeah.
>> So when you think of the Kenneth Arnold
sighting and you think of the
description that he had, it's very
similar to that.
>> Yeah.
>> So that might have been it.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> But that doesn't that doesn't jive with
the tic tac. The tic tac's bananas.
>> Yeah, it is. It is.
>> Like that the speed that that thing
moved, every human being inside of it,
if there was a person flying in that,
they would have got turned into jello-.
Yeah.
>> Just from the G-forces.
>> That's right. That's right.
>> Also, there's no material that we have
that could survive that kind of speed.
>> Yeah.
Um I know
>> see this came out in those I think this
came out in those alien document or one
of the dumps.
>> Yeah.
>> So this is a lot of people have said
that it's Lockheed Martin created that
thing and that is exactly what it looked
like including those weird things at the
bottom. Mhm.
>> Those weird things at the bottom,
whatever that those little
whatever those little tube looking
things at the bottom of it, that is part
of what they describe when they said
they saw the tic tac. And there have
been people in the air quotes disclosure
movement that have said openly that
thing was a Lockheed Martin device.
>> Yeah, that's right.
>> Okay. So, that's the case. What What is
that? And how's that thing moving and
how's it moving that way in 2004?
>> Yeah.
>> And if Loheed Martin has this kind of
technology 22 years ago,
>> yeah,
>> that that baffles me and that defies
your imagination just runs wild. Like
>> so that's my point is that you know if
if this is happening and this has been
happening um it's like it's well this is
something that's
kept well guarded and even I don't think
even with the disclosure today I don't
think that push is gonna is going to be
effective is going to
>> I see what you're saying so that thing
from the disclosure dump from
>> I'm looking at more info right now
>> what is that
>> what the perplexity has to say about it
it's not a hoax real or uh it's
certainly a ho wait
>> almost certainly a hoax
>> oh how dare you perplexity
>> boo but what perplexity getting this
information from.
So it says what the story claims a
document circulating on social media
since August of 2025 purports to be a
leaked Lockheed Martin CIA flight manual
for a craft called the CL957
Gen 2 nickname Tic Tac per the claims
Instagram skunk works post someone made
it on Reddit it says
>> okay of course Jason Wild on X Reddit
forensic breakdown Tana YouTube analysis
no providence nothing in the freedom of
information act archives. Uh the CIA
crest database, black vault or national
archive references, CL 957 or orbit
lance real black programs. Ox cart uh
have blue tactic blue all eventually
left paper trails. Wrong designation
scheme locked CL um blank blank blank
California temporary design numbers are
documented. CL282 CL1200
Lancer etc. and CL 957 doesn't appear in
any credible listing document artifacts
analyst flag typography
formatting and classification marking
inconsistencies versus real technical
orders plus anacronistic
F-22 references and an odd CIA series
aircraft phase phrasing h
>> it's only been found on social media
nowhere else
>> well then it's real [snorts]
you know that X is the news now don't
you pay attention
God, Jamie, sorry.
I want to believe I want to believe that
Loheed Martin has that. They might
>> Well, we always have Travis Walton.
>> Yeah, but like Travis is one guy with
one story. Very interesting.
>> There's a lot of them, though.
>> Yeah. Oh, 100%. There's There's a lot of
weird stories. And there's a lot of
weird stories of what Travis the the the
thing is the real problem is once it
becomes iconic, right? Like once there's
once there's once there's a story that
gets out there like uh Betty and Barney
Hill for instance.
>> Yeah.
>> You hear that story and then that story
becomes a part of folklore. That story
becomes a part of people's imagination
and when you start thinking about grays,
you immediately start thinking about
Whitley Striber, right? You start
thinking about communion, you start
thinking about close encounters. So you
already have these images in your mind
of what these things are supposed to
look like. That's right. Yeah.
>> And that's a part of the problem, right?
>> Uh kind of. Yeah. Yeah,
>> that is a part of the problem. Um, I was
going to go down another path.
>> Okay.
>> Okay. So, about reverse engineering
stuff like how does this work,
>> right?
>> All right. So, one of the things that I
came to like understand was that um a
couple of people told me about this and
it was nothing that they intended to
tell me by the way, but I asked. So, you
know, Tyler was was doing this reverse
engineering type of thing. He's trying
to find people to help him with with
this. And he would have what he thought
were or alleged [snorts]
UFO debris that he had found at various
places like in New Mexico and so forth.
And then what he had to do was he had to
get together a group of engineers that
could actually reverse engineer it. And
he would tell them, he wouldn't say this
is a UFO or this is, you know, something
found in the desert. No, no. He would
say this is China's or this is Russia's
and we need in order to keep our you
know dominance or whatnot we need to get
this reverse engineered pronto and that
this lie would then motivate these guys
okay and that they would reverse
engineer this and he would come up with
something okay so later on I would
listen to how and how would give these
these talks how put off by the way who's
who's one of the people that is
interested in UFOs and knows a lot about
them and so He gave this talk at the
inaugural soul conference and I was
there. Um, and so I was listening to him
and to me it sounded like what he was
saying was exactly what Tyler was saying
that he was saying, "We have this, you
know, but we don't actually know how to
do this, how to backineer this, so we're
going to give it to this talented group
of people and we're going to tell them
that this was already made, but a a
nonally, like an enemy had it." So
basically by telling them this they
would then
like in a sense do kind of like a a
trick on their minds and they would
actually reverse engineer it. They would
reverse engineer something that he said
already existed. So in a sense it was
like um not only working with time in a
weird way like kind of like you know
projecting what was going to be in the
future telling them it already had been
done. So that made me think this is like
the propaganda that I'm talking about
and that you just started to talk about.
Like if we could then on a mass scale
tell people that we have something or
this is the case maybe there would be a
critical like mental construct and
people would actually do something or
rise to the occasion or something like
that. That could have been propaganda
for the space race, right? That could
have been like the moon landing stuff
like you know uh I'm not saying that
didn't happen by the way. I'm saying
that you know part of it was a way to
get Americans to win the space race we
had to already believe that we won it
right. In order to create this stuff we
already have to believe that someone
else created it. It's like the five
minute mile.
>> Mhm.
>> You see what I'm saying? So
>> four minute right?
>> Yeah. That why maybe it's a five minute
to me. [laughter]
The women's five minute mile right. No,
the four-minute mile. That's right. So,
we already had to believe that it had
been done in order to do it,
>> right? Because once someone broke it,
then a bunch of people broke it.
>> Yeah. Yeah. That's right. So, so Oh, and
then I was asked by people who are um in
the government to speak to inter agency
like people, scientists. And so they
would have me talk to these scientists,
like 50 of them, right, from various
parts of the government, and basically
tell them the story of like American
Cosmic. And I was like, okay, I'll do
that. Why? You know, they didn't say
anything about why. But I started to
think maybe this is like a how put off
thing or maybe this is like a Tyler
thing that I'm doing this for them so
that their brains can think this has
already been done. We better do this. M.
So when when you say the sophisticated
propaganda that the Nazis have that that
we took this technology from them like
what do you mean by that like what was
their tech what what was unique about
their propaganda?
>> All right. So I don't know exactly but I
do have some ideas and two of the ideas
I have are what I just told you that if
you can seed the population with images
and belief you know that will impact
their belief you can change it. Okay
there's that one but there's also the
one that you know Bill Cooper's book um
>> Behold Pay a horse. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Okay. So in behold a to pay a horse he
talks about the quiet weapons where he's
talking about basically technology and
how technology is going to
engineer consent and he's talking about
this in I don't know what exactly when
he read that
>> engineer consent
>> yeah engineer consent of the population
about certain things and you do that
through uh utilizing social media well
he's not calling it that he's calling it
quiet weapons but you know back then
putting stuff on TV and you know
creating a narrative that people buy
into and believe and he said that this
is going to uh you see this by the way
with Arthur C. Clark in his book in his
short story childhood's end or no it's a
book um where you know that he's talking
about aliens where these aliens are
engineering humanity through technology
through social media and things like
that
[clears throat]
>> so this could be what the Nazi
propaganda the weapon is that it could
be used as a weapon but it could also be
used for good [snorts]
>> and it could be used to facilitate
technological innovation by telling them
that it's already been done.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, when I was I
was uh I ran in college, so I was a
college runner uh for track and cross
country and I had a great team of
coaches who would teach us sports
psychology and part of what we would do
would be we would already see us
winning. We would already see and they
would also tell us so and so ran this,
you know, you can do this. So in a sense
they were utilizing that on our team and
it it was good. It was you know helpful.
>> Right. Well it's it's very important
your mindset especially when it comes to
athletics because there's so much that's
involved in competition that's
psychological.
>> Yeah.
>> Do you think that that also is the case
when it comes to technological
innovation?
>> Definitely. You have to believe that it
can be done or that it has been done and
that it helps you figure out the
pathway.
>> I mean, this is what I'm telling you.
So, with the the people that I just
talked about, we're talking about Tyler,
right? We're talking about um then how
even though I don't think he'd say that
that's what he was do doing or talking
about, that's what I interpreted his
talk to be. And he's talking, you know,
he's he has some really interesting
>> uh ideas about physics and matter and
reality and so forth. Um and then later
on uh yeah that's what I think you know
I think that that works that actually
works
>> it makes sense that it would that the
blocks that people have in their mind
about what is and what is not possible
that if you say not only is it possible
it's already been done so
>> yeah so yeah so I don't know like when
we start to talk about like the various
things that we've been talking about
like you know if this is real and that
happened and so forth maybe that's what
the they're trying to get us not to talk
about The really interesting things like
maybe that, you know, that form of what
what could be a form of mind control.
>> I understand that. But when it comes to
technology that could have military
applications and that we've had all
these military conflicts, you would
imagine that you would see some of this
stuff being utilized. And there's no
real evidence that there has been like
there's no evidence from Iraq or
Afghanistan from any of those conflicts
that we had something that moves faster
than the speed of light and that we have
weapons that were indescribable
until Nicaragua.
So, or Venezuela rather, the the
Venezuelan contact where we um conflict
rather where we abducted the president
and we came in and incapacitated
everybody with some sort of a sound
weapon like that all stuff sounds like
super science fictiony and when you
realize like that is real, they
absolutely did that. So they have had
something for a long time that can do
things that are beyond our understanding
of what we thought was possible.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> How put off had that crazy story about
when he was working for the Bush
administration where they brought him in
with a bunch of other scientists about
thought leaders.
>> Yeah. And they said we are going to
disclose that there are alien crafts and
that we have biological remains of
creatures from some other place. what is
the negative and what are the positive
impacts of this and I want you to put a
numerical value on each one of them and
tell us what what the result is and all
all the people that they brought in all
had similar conclusions when they said
how's it going to impact government
how's it going to impact religion how's
it going to impact society or economy
there's way more negative than there is
positive and so they decided not to
disclose and when he tells that story
just like
god that tracks that tracks like that
they would do that that they would say
maybe we should tell everybody but this
is going to be the impact.
>> My belief is that's a temporary impact
and that societyy's going to continue to
function because it's pragmatic. We're
going to have to you're going to have to
have an economy. You're going to have to
have government. You're going to have to
have all these things while also knowing
we're not alone. And maybe that would
help dissolve some of the conflicts that
we have because if we think that we're
the only gang in town and then there's
another gang over there and we're duking
it out with them.
>> If we find out well actually there's a
gang from another planet that's that's
the Reagan speech to the United Nations
that all the UFO dorks went like, "Oh,
he's telling us something that if we
were faced with a threat from another
world, how quickly we would put aside
our differences."
>> Yep. That's right. Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> I mean, yeah. I I I'm with you. I think
that people won't be um they won't go
into shock and things,
>> but it would temporarily disrupt
everything. And that therein lies the
problem. The problem is the collapse of
the economy, global trust in government.
Like if the government really isn't the
people that are in control, if there
really is something far above and beyond
human government that has some sort of
an influence on world events, that's
that's that's a real it's tough to vote
in a congressman that says they're going
to enact change when we're being
observed by extraterrestrial life that
can read your mind.
>> I don't know if that's true. I don't
know if I agree with you on that. I
think that it's all I think people will
be all right. I mean, we're having the
government say today, right? I mean, JD
Vance on your podcast just said it's
they're demons, right? That's that's
[laughter]
>> If JD Vance doesn't know, aren't we all
if he just thinks that they're
demons, like what he doesn't seem
>> he says he's too busy to like really dig
into the UFO stuff, which I kind of get
and understand, but also don't because
if that was
>> obviously I'm never going to be vice
president, but if I was, that would be
like the first thing I would look into
as soon as I got into my desk. I'd be
like, where they have everything? I'm
going there. I'm going there. I'm going
to say you have to show me and I'll keep
my mouth shut, but I need to know like
you need to show me. We need to know
like what are we I need to know what
position we're at in order to move
forward. I don't know. I need to know
where are we operating from. Are we
operating from a position where human
beings are the advanced dominant
intellect on Earth or not?
>> Because if it's or not, that changes
everything.
>> But you're rare. You're the rare person
who like most people in the United
States believe in God. Like there are
more than 80% of people who believe in
God. They think God runs it, right? God
is a non-human intelligence.
>> But that doesn't they they're not
mutually exclusive. Like God could exist
and also intelligent life from elsewhere
could also exist.
>> That's right. And that's why most people
won't be shocked or upset. I don't think
that there's going to be a level of um
anxiety that people predict. Honestly, I
don't. Well, hasn't the Vatican even
addressed this and saying that if alien
life exists that God could have created
life other places?
>> Of course. Yeah.
>> Which really does make sense.
>> Yeah. Yeah. So, they're not going to be
upset. And there are a lot of Catholics
in the United States. So, I mean, people
in the United States or even all over
the world, there are countries like in
Brazil where they're okay with, you
know, if they're if there are aliens up
there, it's not going to change. They're
probably watching us and nobody's going
to be upset about that. They're still
going to vote for their presidents and
their congress people and so forth.
>> Yeah. So, you're like the only one here
that I not the only one, but you're
representing a small minority of people
in my opinion.
>> How so?
>> Because you think that that it's going
to change everything. You think that it
might actually change your worldview,
but it's not going to change the 80% out
there.
>> It's not going to change their
worldview.
>> I think that's a guess. Mine's a guess
as well. It's a guess of how it's going
to affect the world. I I would assume it
affects it in a pretty spectacular way.
If we have undeniable proof that there
is some superior intelligence that's
interacting with us and perhaps even
controlling events and preventing
certain things from happening like when
they go over nuclear bases and stop
weapons functions.
>> This is a religious worldview. That's a
that's the religious worldview. you're
you're identifying right there. How is
that a religious worldview that there's
an intelligent life form from another
planet that comes from
>> not another planet but like you know
there's an intelligent interdimensional
>> right we don't know if it's from another
planet that's a guess so most [snorts]
religions are assuming that there are
other there are gods and goddesses or
there is god and there are angels and
demons and things like that there you
know non-human intelligences so they
already think this and this is already a
world view
>> well that's what gets weird when you get
into the really old scripts like The
Book of
>> Enoch.
>> That's right.
>> That you know, Anna Paulina Luna, she's
the one who turned me on that. And yeah,
I've listen to the audio book of the
Book of Enoch twice now.
>> And every time I listen to I'm like,
what the were they talking about?
>> Like what is what are the Watchers who
came down and and bred with the
daughters of man and created the
Nephilim? Like what is what is all this
stuff?
>> Yeah. that informs a lot of Christian
doctrines basically.
>> Well, not really. Not today. But because
it's not included in the cannon, but
what if it was, right?
>> It's included in the canon, but just not
in reference to the book of Enoch. I
mean, if you
>> Well, the book of Enoch's not in the
canon, but Enoch is referenced in the
Bible.
>> Absolutely. Yeah.
>> Which is kind of nuts that you don't get
the book of Enoch,
>> but you have the worldview of Enoch. A
lot of Christians still believe in that.
And it's I would say that I don't know
like [snorts] more than 50%. So even
though so yes. So
>> more than 50% believe
>> they believe in the worldview of of
Enoch that we're that there are watchers
and fallen angels and things like that
that you know this is the supernatural
worldview and it's alive and well. Paul
uh she believes in it, right? She
believes that there that Yeah. Anna
Pelina. Oh
>> yeah. So, uh, I've heard her say that
she thinks they're interdimensional
beings also. So, in a sense, the
paternal,
>> right? Um, imagine a world, imagine how
different religion would be if the book
of Enoch was regularly taught in sun
Sunday at church that they would tell
you that story along with Moses and
along with all the other stories that
they would tell you about the book of
Enoch. And everybody in the church would
be sitting there like, "What? What are
you talking about? Who are the watchers?
Like what are they? They came down and
and lay with the daughters of man. What?
>> Yeah.
>> Like this is this was a part of an
ancient story. And the real question is
when whenever I read these biblical
stories, I'm always trying to I know
that they're writing things down. First
of all, they're writing it in ancient
Hebrew and then it's transcribed and and
translated into Latin and to Greek and
all these other languages and a lot is
lost in that translation. A lot lot gets
interpreted very weird because of just
the just the way languages are formed.
Just the way they they structure
sentences the way like a lot of the
context of it is weird. Also in ancient
Hebrew numbers double letters double as
numbers. So
>> a lot of coded stuff,
>> right? Yeah. So there's numerical value
to the words which is really weird.
>> There are churches though that do teach
that there are some religious
traditions. I agree with you that this
tradition is not well taught to
Christians or Jewish people or you know
today. But that doesn't mean that the
Christians aren't going to go out and
learn for themselves. They do. They do
learn for themselves and they actually
have communities that know about this.
So lots do.
>> Well certainly the Ethiopians.
>> Yeah. Of course. Right. Which is weird
>> that the Ethiopian Bible has that in it.
They have the book of Enoch as a part of
the Ethiopian Bible.
>> Yeah. That Well, it's one it's one of
the first Bibles. It's one of the first.
So, Ethiopian Christianity is like one
of the oldest forms of continuous
Christianity. But there's no
continuously practice.
>> No real translation of it that's
available in English,
>> right? Isn't that the case with the
Ethiopian Bible?
>> Well, let's see. Yeah, I guess you're
right. I don't actually know about that
if I mean, you can look it up. I mean,
people can look up this stuff and there
are people who write about it. Like my
field, people write about it,
>> right? Your field. But I mean, the
average Christian is not really aware of
what's in the book of Enoch.
>> Yeah, you're right. You're right. So,
that's where like a basic studies
religion class like where you know, if
you take my class, I'll make you aware
of it. I'll make you aware of the
different forms of Christianity, right?
The ones before the Roman Catholicism
and you know, the earliest forms of
Christianity. I'll also make you aware
of the supernatural world view.
>> I feel like it's all there was something
that happened there. There's real events
and
I just don't know
if the stories are accurate. I don't
know if the the written version of these
stories accurately relays the real
events that took place and what they're
trying to say, especially when in
regards to the Watchers and the Nephilim
and all that stuff and the giants.
There's just so many weird parts of
those stories that we're just supposed
to just accept.
Like, what is that? That sounds to me
like genetic engineering is what it
sounds like. It sounds like a primitive
translation of or explanation of what
genetic engineering of human beings was.
That's what it sounds like.
>> You know, that belief was still around
um after Jesus was crucified in within
the early church because Paul writes
about it in his letters.
>> What does he write about?
>> Okay. So, you know the um the tradition
of women wearing veils in church.
>> No.
>> Yeah. So if you go to a mass today like
a Catholic mass some women will be
wearing veils and if you go to a
traditionalist mass mass they will be
wearing veils and um the reason that
Paul gave was because of the angels that
were attracted to them in church. So you
have to be careful women when you go to
church the angels might be there who
might be attracted to you. He doesn't
say that specifically but that's part of
the reason why. So the early Christian
church was that they were immersed in
that worldview. That worldview was is
still around.
>> So the women wore veils so that the
watchers wouldn't find them attractive.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Whoa.
>> Yeah. And some women still wear veils.
>> That's crazy.
>> So yeah, a lot of that tradition is
still here.
>> So just a residual interpretation of
whatever the original story, the
original event was.
>> That's right.
Do you think humans were genetically
engineered?
>> I'm, [laughter] you know, I'm Catholic,
right? I'm Christian. Okay. So,
>> what do you think happened?
>> I I mean, of course, my views have
changed. So, before I got into the UFO
thing, I was a, you know, I went to
Catholic church. I went to daily mass
sometimes. I was Christian. I've been
Christians since I was 11. I was raised
by secular parents. They were not
>> How did you get involved in
Christianity? I was converted through on
Easter, by the way, on Good Friday by
watching and I didn't try to watch it
was on TV. My parents had put it on and
I was 11 and I was doing Easter eggs and
they were playing uh Franco Zepharelli's
Jesus of Nazareth and I started to watch
it. Now, I didn't know that he was
crucified at the end because I was just,
you know, a kid. I wasn't raised
religious at all. And my dad came from a
Catholic family. My mother came from a
Jewish family or she's Jewish and so
they didn't practice religion. Total
rationalists. Um so I was watching it
and it was when the the scene where
where the woman the adulterous woman is
just about to be stoned to death by
these guys, right? This big group and
they're just about to throw the stones
and Jesus goes down and starts drawing
something. And I was like what the what
is he going to do? And um he basically
says, "Those of you with uh without sin,
throw the first stone." And I was like,
"Oh, that was brilliant, right?" And so
then I was hooked. I was hooked. And at
the end, he was crucified. I was
devastated. And so I told my mother, I
said, "Mom, you have to buy me a Bible.
Like, you have to." So the next day we
went out. She doesn't know what to look
for. So, we go to this store and the the
the person helped us out and they gave
us a a King James version of the Bible,
red letter. I said, "I want everything
that Jesus said. I want to know all that
he said." And I was hooked on it. And
so, I read this thing. I read the whole
thing. And at that point, I recognized I
had to grow up and I had to read the
original sources because that was hard
to read. It didn't make sense. And I was
like, "This doesn't make sense to me.
What he said was beautiful." And I was
hooked. Um, I became a Christian.
>> What didn't make sense to you? What part
of
>> the whole Bible? The whole Bible when
you start to read it from beginning to
end. You know, there are all those
things that you just don't understand.
There are two creation stories in
Genesis and you're like, well, why are
there two? And you know, there are all
those names and lineages and you're
like, what? You get to the book of
Leviticus and it has all these rules and
regulations and you're like, you just
don't understand it. And I knew that at
that point I needed to learn the
original languages and how they were put
together. That's why I decided to become
a professor of religion.
>> And so, um, I became a Christian and I
was a born again Christian. And then
when it came time to go to high school,
I asked my father, he had connections to
Catholics, if I could go to Catholic
high school. Luckily, I went to a
Sisters of Mercy high school where they
were beautiful people and I learned
Catholicism in action, like actually
helping people and stuff. And um, and I
became Catholic. And so I've been
Catholic my whole life after that. Uh
>> did your parents ever join you?
>> My dad My dad did. Yeah. He's passed
away. He died pretty young, but yeah, he
did. He he was brought back to religion
because of me.
>> Wow.
>> Yeah. Yeah. It was really pretty
intense.
But um my you know that's just how it
was. Uh but anyway, so that I became
very interested obviously you know I
thought this is super important. we have
to know about the how this happened just
like you said how do I know this really
happened and um and that's when I became
aware of the old like the Ethiopian
church the earliest texts for Christians
and the and I don't think Christian
churches do a good job of relaying this
information to Christians frankly I
think that they don't do the best job
and that they could do it better and so
I now I teach New Testament at my
university and you know I I do my best
to kind of convey what the what these
people were experiencing and and the
kinds of people still experience those
things today. So yeah, so that's how I
became uh that's how I became Christian.
>> Interesting. So
when I said do you think that human
beings were genetically engineered?
Your response was I'm Catholic.
>> Yeah. Unless you're talking about God
doing that genetic engineering.
>> So you you think that the Bible is a
absolute literal translation of real
events? So what do you think it is?
>> It's a Okay. So Catholics don't believe
in biblical literalism, which is that it
you can't because there are so many
parts of the Bible that contradict. So
you'd be, you know, that would be a
contradiction. Uh but they believe that
it is the inspired word of God written
by people, written by men. And so
there's fallibility in terms of the not
in morals and the conveying of the
spirit of Christianity,
>> right?
>> Uh but you know, so so yeah, that's what
they believe. So in terms of the genetic
engineering, do I I believe that Enoch,
the book of Enoch, it conveys the spirit
of truth. Absolutely. Do I believe that
there are um that's why I believe that
if the according listen when I started
to study UFOs I was not expecting at all
what I found and what I found reinforced
my own religion my own Catholic
upbringing or selfchosen upbringing
>> how did it reinforce it
>> okay so that's that's where I was at
actually so I was pretty secular even as
a Christian especially after I went to
graduate school. So I went to graduate
school, studied all of this stuff and
then became a professor and I believed
in the spirit of the book. I believed in
the spirit of Christianity. I believed
it's true. Therefore, I taught it to my
kids. I went to church. I'd sometimes go
to mass. You know, they have daily mass
and and Catholicism. I homeschooled my
kids in a Catholic homeschool group uh
for the most part until they needed some
outsourcing in math. And so um but it
wasn't until I became I studied UFOs
that I recognized that the book of Enoch
is alive and well today. That's what I
recognized in eupfology and I
encountered stuff that I thought looked
pretty dodgy and I was like this looks
like the pre-ternatural and I it so
that's what I'm saying. It supercharged
my Christianity to the point where I
went back and I reread all of that stuff
again. And I recognized that whatever
they're dealing with now when people are
having these experiences so forth, um
not all of them, but a good many of them
are uh you can, you know, look to me
similar in in kind. I don't say they're
identical, but they look similar. And
therefore, um, if that's the case, then,
you know, I I need to be a different
type of believer. I need to be a much
more, uh, believing believer, if that
makes
>> believe. Yeah. And if I can't be secular
about my Christianity, I actually have
to practice it, live it, be prepared for
what comes next. Kind of that lifestyle.
>> That's what that's the kind of
lifestyle. Is it in any way frustrating
that you have studied so much of these
encounters and these experiences but you
don't have a personal encounter or a
personal experience with these things?
>> Uh well that's an assumption that you
have
>> that you don't have one.
>> Yeah.
>> Do you have one?
>> Well maybe I'm I don't feel comfortable
talking about it but yeah I have some
experiences. But
>> why don't you feel comfortable talking
about it? You re This is part of what
you do for a living. you you talk about
other people's encounters. Why would you
not feel comfortable talking about your
encounters?
>> Um well because that is um I mean I'm
not sure what to think of them. That's
why I listen this is not what motivated
me to study euphology or those kinds of
things. When I think about the
>> Did you have these encounters before you
studied eupfology?
>> When I look back I say yes I had those
encounters. Yeah.
>> When did you first have an encounter? I
didn't interpret them as UFOs though.
Well, my I did have a family member who
had an experience with what looks like a
UFO and it was documented. I actually
found a documentation of it from the
time in a newspaper. Other people had
seen it too. So, I live in a place that
is called that has UFOs. So, I grew up
uh near Folsam Lake and that's there are
lots of UFOs around that area. And so he
had a this is of course a long time ago
when we he was not interested in UFOs. I
wasn't and he was he was young riding
his bike up a hill and he saw it and um
and it kind of it was a classic UFO
thing. Turned around, looked at him and
he was like, "What?" And sped down the
hill screaming. Uh came into the
driveway. My parents went out there.
Now, my parents complete rationalists
and they see it too and they uh they saw
it and it just kind of like hovered and
it was like a giant orb, orange orb and
it hovered for a while and then it just
went up in the sky and disappeared. And
so they had this. This is before I went
to college. Every it was a very long
time ago. And um and then later when I
started to study this uh I I had family
members tell me, "Yeah, remember that."
And I was like, "Yeah, yeah, tell me
about that." And so they reiterated that
this is what happened. And they wanted
to kind of get it on the record. And
then um one of them found the
documentation of a newspaper at the time
and sent it to me. So I have that data.
So there's been that. But that's kind of
a normal thing. Like people have those
experiences and you know they nothing
changes.
>> But you said that you had experiences
that you're not necessarily comfortable
talking about.
>> I wouldn't I didn't have a UFO
experience. Like I haven't had like UFO
experiences like that.
>> What have you had?
>> Well, I have the very normal experience
of a person who is a believing
Christian. And if you have if you're
that kind of person, you will have
experiences where you feel like this is,
you know, there's there's more to life
than kind of what you're taught at
school. So that's the kind of experience
I'm talking about. Uh people in the book
of Acts,
>> can you elaborate like what do you mean
by that? Yeah.
>> What what experiences have you had that
made you feel that way?
>> Oh, I've had lifelong experiences like
that that
>> like what? Well, just that certain
things happen at the right time at the
right moment. And you know, I mean, lots
of people have these experiences. If you
read about uh Mel Gibson doing his
movies, you know, the um Passion of the
Christ, he talks about very powerful
things that happened on the set. So
things like this, things that you you
know that they're not probable like Jim
Cavisel being hit by lightning when he's
on the cross and you know things like
that that happen. Uh that's you're like
wow. Okay. I mean you could say that's a
coincidence and you know you can look at
it from that perspective but uh
it's all outlined in the book of Acts in
the New Testament. If you read that
book, it talks about these very these
very uh significant experiences to the
people. But the reason I don't talk
about them is because if you talk about
them to people who don't have those
experiences, they will just say, "Well,
that's just a coincidence or that's
that." So you're like, "Yeah, that's one
way to look at it." So you can't convey
it's like a it's a question of just
qualia. It's a it's a question of your
own perception of it,
>> right? But as an educator, don't you
think perhaps if you have had these
experiences, you have a responsibility
to try to relay that information to
people?
>> No. No. No. Because I'm I teach
religious studies. So in religious
studies, you'll see this this in my
book, too. Uh you're teaching about the
actual book, the the cont social
context, the historical context. You're
not actually advocating for a belief
system,
>> but but relaying your personal
experiences is not advocating for a
belief system.
>> It would be. It would be.
>> Um
because
>> isn't it a belief? Isn't an experience
open to interpretation?
>> An experience.
>> So, how would you be relaying your
belief systems by having an experience
that you detail in an honest way that's
open to interpretation? I would do that
if I was in a a a situation where that
kind of experience was helpful to
people. I and I have done that before.
Like I've been on podcasts where um you
know where they would say they're
Christians and you know we're talking
about Christian life and so forth and I
would explain my experiences and we
would talk about that and people would
you know they would talk about their
experiences. But when you're at a
secular university that's not what you
do. You don't do that. When I'm writing
as a scholar of religion, you're not
that's not what it's about. It's not
about whether or not these experiences
are real. What it is about is about
how this is shaping culture. Now,
>> what I meant when I asked you that
question, I'm talking about UFO
abductions, encountering beings and
entities.
>> That's what I'm talking about. I'm like,
have you had one of those experiences? I
have not. Don't you wish he did?
>> Um, no. It doesn't look like I wish that
I did. When I look at what happens to
people who have had abductions and these
experiences, um, it looks traumatic,
Joe. I don't No, I don't want that.
>> Interesting.
>> Like, life is already traumatic enough,
you know? [sighs]
>> Right. I get what you're saying. Um,
when you hear about people that uh
supposedly
they they have this uh ritualistic
practice where they manifest orbs and
they they meditate and
>> psionics.
>> What do you think that is?
>> Yeah. So, I do believe that they're
doing something.
>> A friend of mine did it recently and
she's she's very rational. Okay.
>> She's a very rational person, very
intelligent person and she wants me to
do it with her. She's like, "You got to
come and try this out." And like, we
were trying to set a date where she's
like, "I'll explain to you how I did it
and how you do it." I was like, "All
right, I believe you." Like, I've been
friends with her for decades. She's
super rational, very normal person, very
intelligent, not crazy in any way,
shape, or form. And she's like, "This
gonna sound nuts, but if you do
this, and if you do it and you give it
enough time, they will show up."
>> Is this with like Steven Greer? or is it
like C5 with him?
>> She doesn't do She's She's not in any
way associated with that guy, but
>> she was taught how to do it by someone
else.
>> And she said she went on some
thing where they they all did it
together. Yeah.
>> And and then she's done it privately
alone and she said you could do it.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
>> She's gonna she said it's going to sound
insane, but it's real.
>> Okay.
>> What do you think about that?
All right. Well, I believe that it
happens.
>> What do you think is happening?
>> I'm not sure what's happening, but I
don't think I would do it.
>> Why not?
>> Because I I believe in cognitive
sovereignty. Like I believe that we
should be sovereign like our, you know,
not have something
>> interacting with us.
>> Yeah. Beyond mentally and spiritually
>> and you know, so yeah, that's why I
wouldn't do it.
>> But is does it take away your
sovereignty to communicate with
something else?
Yeah, a lot of times it does. So, one of
the things that I noticed when I started
to talk to people, and I don't want to
like, you know, tell you not to do it,
but
>> I'm going to do it,
>> but Okay.
>> You're not going to talk me out of it.
>> All right. [laughter] All right. I
wouldn't do it.
Um, [clears throat]
yeah. So, one of the things I noticed
was a lot of people in the beginning
when I was doing this research would and
still today would say, "Diana, you can
contact these beings, okay? And this is
how you do it and you have to give them
permission." And I was like, "What are
you talking about? That
>> sounds like vampire shit."
>> Yeah, that's right. I'm like, "I'm not
going to let the vampire in."
>> Yeah. Yeah. You have to give them
permission. Yeah. And And that's
>> Isn't that weird? I wonder if that's
where that comes from.
>> All right. Well, that's what I'm telling
you that you should
>> The vampire lore is that you have to
invite them in.
>> That's right. But that's the demonic
lore, too.
>> Really? You have to invite them in.
>> So, I mean, if you're going to do that,
that's you're inviting them in.
>> Oh, boy.
>> So,
>> now I'm secondg guessing it. [laughter]
I'm just saying uh there's
>> Jamie, would you do it?
>> I mean, I almost tried. I think I think
I try [laughter] daily, but like just in
my own head.
>> What do you think about people that have
psychedelic experiences where they
encounter entities?
>> I think they're encountering entities.
Yeah. So, I think psychedelics is the
quick way to open up that spiritual part
of your brain, but it's a dangerous way.
Well, look, okay, I'm not I don't want
to go down this. I've I've been on I've
gone down this road before, but um
>> what's wrong with the road? Why don't
you like to go down that road?
>> Oh, because I guess um
there's there's part of your brain
actually we talked about this last time
I was on here. We talked about the
spiritual sense, remember? We talked
about the pineal gland and stuff like
that. Okay. So, I've learned a lot about
it since then. All right. And what I I
it's a real thing. Okay. And the again
the Christian churches don't do a good
job of conveying that this is really
important for Christians to know about
and not just Christians but religious
people all over the world. This is what
they're doing when they're doing those
protocols of religion. They're trying to
cultivate the spiritual sense. Why?
Because the human being is oriented
toward the sacred. Like we're we're a
very specific type of thing. We're
oriented toward the sacred. The
spiritual sense is what helps us connect
to it. We could, you know, utilize the
spiritual sense through certain things,
fasting, um, living a certain way, you
know, and that sort of thing. It's
really important, by the way. And, um,
digital culture like is messing with
that, by the way, the spiritual sense.
Okay. So, psychedelics are one way to
like hijack into it and, you know, open
up that world. Uh, so it's a quick way,
but it's it's I wouldn't call it the
ideal way. Although in some religions
like the Church of Native Americans,
that's their way of doing it. That's
their way of doing it. All right. And
they have rituals to do it with, you
know, it's sacred. Um,
yeah. So to do it casually and without,
you know, without attention is probably
might be dangerous. I've done I've
utilized mushrooms when I was young. Um
>> I like that word
>> utilized.
>> Yeah. [laughter]
>> You know, when I did it though, like I
was really young.
>> Very official.
>> I was I was very young and uh I prayed
before I did it, my friend and I, and we
had a really, you know, good experience
and so forth. But I think I was just
lucky. Okay. I think I was lucky.
>> Why do you think that?
>> Because I've had friends who've had
really terrible experiences,
>> right? And so I think that it's best
just not to unless you're like born into
that culture that does that and that's
part of your religion.
>> One of the things that seems to be the
case in a lot of the people that have
had um these bad experiences is that
they try to fight it and that they they
try to battle with the experience. They
try to take control of it. The ego gets
in the way. they they want to regain
some sort of a control over their
consciousness and and they fight with it
and they have bad trips. You know,
there's moments when you do psychedelics
where you realize I just got to let it
go. I just got to realize that I'm not
in control of this at all and just let
it go. And some people can let it go and
some people can't. I've seen people
struggle with it. I've seen people that
can't let it go and they fight with it
and they have really bad trips and it's
very scary to watch. Mhm.
>> But I think that's the root of it. I
think the root of it is you're battling
with something that you can't beat.
>> You just have to just let go.
>> Mhm.
>> And just take it in. Here we go.
Just go on the ride. And some people
can't go on the ride like no. And
they're grabbing the walls and they're
grabbing vines and they're trying to
stop their progression. They don't want
to do it. Like it's too scary for them.
They don't want to let go. They don't
want to they don't want to erode their
belief system. They don't want to expand
their view of the world. They're just
too, it's too scary. They have a problem
with fear. They have a problem with the
unknown. They have a problem with having
this very isolated view of reality and
having that shattered in front of them.
And they they don't feel comfortable
with that. And they they try to they try
to resist it.
I think that's what's going on.
You have to understand like what it is
and you have to understand that you're
not in control and you got to let it go.
You got to go for the ride.
But that's also me saying that and my
psyche is very different than another
person's psyche and theirs is different
than yours. And everyone everyone's
different. Everyone has different
>> experiences, different psychological
vulnerabilities, different you know.
>> Right. Yeah. Yeah.
>> Yeah.
Um, we were talking before the podcast
about the Shroud of Turan.
>> Oh, yeah.
>> Yeah. And you were
>> And we, by the way, we brought that up
last time I was here and that happened
by accident, remember?
>> Yes.
>> Yeah. Yeah. So, a lot of people have
been talking about that since we talked
about it.
>> Yeah. Um, you were saying something
though that the piece that they used for
um, carbon dating that this was a piece
that had been repaired, but I saw
there's a lot of dispute about that
online
>> and it could be. Yeah.
>> Yeah. A lot of people say that that is
just some sort of apologetic excuse for
why the numbers don't match up
correctly. But then I've also seen
things that say that the pollen that is
on that the fibers matches up with the
the exact kind of plants that existed in
Jerusalem 2,000 years ago and that that
all aligns and that further testing
needs to be done to determine the actual
date of it. That aside, there's still no
explanation for why that image exists
and how it was created.
>> Yeah.
>> And um I've never seen anyone explain in
any way that makes any sense how that
could have been forged by someone how it
could been a forgery from someone that
long ago that they could figure it out.
Also, they could make it a a a reverse
negative image. So the only way you see
it is through when you look at it in a
negative.
>> Yeah, I know. It's pretty crazy. Yeah,
>> that doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Whatever it is is it's really weird.
>> It is totally weird. And there are
people who there is a guy who's a a
doctor of like blood, a hematologist,
and he's he seems to have no he he's not
religious um or he's not like you know
uh out there advocating for religion.
and he just happened to study it. Um he
studied the blood and again he was like
and the the uh injuries, you know,
because he can study the injuries and
identify and they match up. And I mean,
I'm not an expert on the shroud, but
believe me, every expert that's out
there since I was on your podcast a few
years ago have they've reached out to me
and they're like, "Tell Joe to get me on
and so forth." And um
>> do you know someone that's a real good
credible expert?
>> Yeah, I know someone. Well, that man I
think has a good video out there. Check
him out. Um I don't know his name, but
he's I mean you should be able to find
if you uh do a search. Yeah,
>> this would be him.
>> Uh
>> new study claims blood stains in the
shroud of turn consistent with torture
of Christ.
>> That's not He doesn't have an Italian
name, the one I know, but I mean that
could be too. I mean he could be out
there doing that. um the guy that that
we found. I can send you the link, but
he's he's an American guy and he's just,
you know, he doesn't have a fancy video
or anything like that. It's
[clears throat] just But there's another
guy who's Catholic called um his name is
Father Dalton and he's this is his
expertise. He knows about this now. He's
theological
>> but he actually does have studies and so
forth.
>> And what is what is unique about his
perspective? So his perspective is that
first you have to understand the
Catholic Church is very careful about
what they put their you know what they
say is true and not true. It takes them
forever to say something is a miracle.
And often when they identify something
as being miraculous they have a huge uh
team of people often [snorts] who are
the best at what they do. They and they
might not be Catholic. Okay? They could
be atheist and so forth. So this was
studied at Duke University, the Shroud
of Trin in the 1980s and I happened to
know a priest who was a graduate student
there in PhD program and he witnessed
the whole study. Um so father Dalton
would be a person who is Catholic
obviously he is a priest. However, he is
not going to say, you know, he's going
to give you the facts about each of the
studies and he's going to talk
specifically about uh what we don't know
what we don't know about it. What you
know, might be as a Catholic, you have
to say this is not we don't know about
that. Like, yeah, you're right. It could
be this or that. Same thing with the
Guadalupe tilma, right? So, you know, a
lot of people say it was created by God
and you know, put on this, you know,
about that, right? So the the Guadalupe
image of the Virgin of Guadalupe in
Mexico City that was miraculous said to
be miraculously put well there are some
you know things that have been added
later. So I think the shroud is like
that also. Um but there and there's been
a lot of studies by
>> what's so interesting about this
Guadalupe thing.
>> So this is a um this is a tilma which is
a a cloak. It's from this is from the
1500s. So this is the an image that
allegedly according to devotional
Catholicism this image was imparted onto
this cloak uh and the cloak was was uh
worn by a guy by the way I think I'm not
sure but uh you know Mel Gibson's icon
like he I think that might be the part
of this. I'm not entirely sure. But so
here you have something that is
unexplainable. Uh part of it is
explainable because after the image was
put on, people had painted over it like
I don't know a hundred years later and
subsequently you know just to upkeep it.
The I think the angel was added a couple
things were added later. Uh but it's
it's it's not as anomalous as the shroud
of term explained as well. Okay. What is
unexplainable about this painting?
>> Okay. So this appears to be a painting
but underneath there's an image and the
image is uh is the Virgin Mary herself
without her cloak without the angel and
without the sun around her. And this
image is allegedly had been put on this
guy's cloak um Juan Diego's cloak in the
1500s. So he was he had a she wanted a
basilica which by the way she's in right
now and that's what she asked for. The
bishop at the time said I don't believe
you Juan Diego. Uh you have to show me
proof. So he went back to the place
where he had seen her and she said, "Go
up and get a bunch of flowers and put
them in this cloak of yours and then
bring them to the bishop. You know,
they're out of season. They don't grow
in Mexico." So he did. He went he got
the flowers. He went back to the bishop
in Mexico City and he gave them to him.
And when they opened it up, there was an
image of the Virgin Mary on the cloak.
And that's where that's this is what
that's supposed to be.
>> I still don't understand why that's
unique. It's just a a painting.
>> No, no one painted. It just showed up.
It was just there.
>> Okay. Well, what's it made out of? Like
what is what is the ink? What is what is
the dye?
>> Yeah. So, okay. So, all right. So, this
is where it it gets complicated. Um, so
the original cloak is agave material.
It's made out of like um, you know,
agave.
>> Agave [clears throat] plant.
>> Yeah. And the original image appears to
be the agave plant fibers. Somehow the
image was from the fibers. It's not
paint. There's no drawing.
>> These colors.
>> Okay. So the colors of the cloak around
her that's later in a later edition.
>> Okay. How do we know that?
>> Uh art historians have looked at it.
like people who do they use infrared
photography and they're able to identify
uh the layers of it
>> so that the image existed originally and
then people painted over the image.
>> Well, they painted around it. They kind
of embellished it.
>> So, where can we see the original?
>> I'm looking I mean it's hard to get that
picture because time
>> that to me is not as interesting is the
shot of Turin.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I agree. They're both really
>> also it's painted over already. It's
like it's already been sort of
bastardized. Yeah,
>> that's the shroud of Tur is just weird
because it's not ink.
>> Yeah.
>> It's not dye. It It seems to be some
sort of like like it's burned in somehow
or another.
>> Yeah.
>> Right.
>> Yeah. So, if you got someone on here to
talk about it, I would either get Father
Dalton or I would get that doctor.
>> I would want someone to dismiss it as
well. I would want two people to talk
about.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I think that would be a
great I'd love to see it
>> because uh what you're saying about the
parts of the fabric that had been
repaired and that's what they had did
the radiocarbon dating on. I've heard
that disputed online.
>> Okay.
>> Yeah. But that would be a thing that you
would say if you wanted to really
believe that it was more than 2,000
years old. You would say, "Oh, no, no,
no. They got the wrong piece."
>> Yeah.
>> And also, why was it repaired? Like, why
would someone repair it? Well, because
it's it's a it's a devotional cloth for
the Catholic Church. So, they're going
to keep it, you know,
>> by adding more cloth to it.
>> Yeah. Because it'll, you know,
disintegrate or whatnot. I mean, it's
been making the rounds for a long time,
>> right?
>> Yeah.
Uh I don't know.
>> Yeah. It says it was found in 1350 and
they don't know how it got to where it
was.
>> And don't don't they Yeah, that's right.
And don't don't they say that that
that's the when they do the radiocarbon
dating it goes back to around that area.
I think it goes to like the 1200s.
That's what they think it came from.
That's where it originated.
>> Yeah. So even if it did, it's still
anomalous. It's still weird.
>> Yeah, it's definitely weird. It's weird
in the sense that it wasn't painted.
It's not dye. That it seems to have been
created by energy.
What is the uh conventional description
for how it was made? Let's see that.
Let's see what it says.
What's the conventional description?
>> Let's see how is it made. Rectangular
linen cross 4.4 meters long, 1.1 meters
wide, bearing the faint
front and back image of a bearded
crucified man. Conventional description
how it was made as a physical object.
Material handwoven woven linen made from
flax fibers weave thread side strip.
Okay, but what about the image? Okay, a
faint sepia.
>> Is that how you say that word? Sepia.
>> Sepia. Straw yellow image shows a man
with wounds consistent with crucifi
crucification crucifixion rather um side
wound wounds at the wrist and feet
puncture marks around the scalp.
Conventional skeptical mainstream
explanation for how the image was
produced falls into a few camps.
Medieval painting pigmentation or
pigment application.
Uhuh. Reported finding red ochre and
vermilion pigments in a gelatin gelatin
collagen tempera binder concluding it
was painted in the 14th century. This
remains the dominant skeptical
explanation. Rubbing or uh boss relief
transfer technique. Researchers like
Joel Nickel have reproduced shroudlike
images by rubbing dry pigment iron oxide
over a cloth laid on the boss relief
sculpture
producing the same negative image
surface only characteristic acid scorch
or chemical staining technique
dating 1988 radiocarbon test performed
independently by labs at Oxford Arizona
and Zurich dated the flax to 1260 to
1390 CE with a 95% confidence squarely
in the medieval period. Consistent with
its documented appearance in Liry around
1355. Under the conventional view, this
dating settles the question, it's a
medieval artifact artifact likely
produced as a devotational
or uh pilgrimage object during the
period when relic veneration was a
booming industry.
Okay. So, what they're saying is it's
made with pigment, but I thought it
wasn't made with pigment.
>> Yeah. And also that there are blood
stains on it.
>> Actual blood.
>> Well, that's what it's supposed to be,
[laughter]
>> right? But is any that's what it's
supposed to be. But has anybody ever
done a study a
any kind of tests on that? The blood
stains are real human blood applied
before the image was formed. This is
what propos
all the above, arguing the C4 sample
came from an evil repair patch. That no
reproduction fully matches the images
properties uh superficially of the 200
nanometer 3D encoded distance
information, no brush strokes, and that
the blood stains are real human blood
applied before the image formed. But the
mainstream conventional description
remains 14th century linen cloth with
hand produced image made in France as a
religious artifact.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> The thing is people want to believe that
it's the shroud that Jesus was buried
in. Right.
>> Well, people do want to believe it, but
I don't I didn't necessarily want to
believe it. Like I've had I used to not
believe it.
>> Do you believe it now?
>> Definitely. Yeah.
>> Why definitely? um because of the the
information by the blood doctor guy
which I'm I hate to keep calling him
that. I wish I knew who what his name
was and also my friend who was at the
Shroud analysis at Duke University and
uh also like what Father Dalton talks
about you know I mean the thing is is
that it looks pretty weird and
>> it's definitely weird.
>> Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, so I believe it,
but I'm not like I can't prove that and
I'm not going to. That's why I do
religious studies, by the way. I'm not a
theologian. I can't say yes, you must
believe this. I don't know. I I believe
it. That's what I can say.
>> Dr. John Campbell.
>> Yeah, I think
>> three million subscribers on YouTube.
>> Yeah. Yeah, that's him. Yeah, that's
him.
>> Okay. But why do you I still understand
why do you believe if it turns out that
these people are all saying the truth
that it was made with it would die?
>> Yeah. Yeah, of course. Then I'll just
change my perception because I have new
data. I will change my theory. Like
right now I believe it's the truth.
>> But that data does exist that it's made
with dye.
>> Okay. So there dye could have put on
been put on it. I believe that there is
a
>> an image on it. There is an image on it.
How did that image get there? That
image. So this is the kind of thing that
things could have been done with it. It
was repaired. It was, you know, it went
through many hands. I mean, I am a
person who knows about Catholic relics.
I know what happens to them. So, these
are things that would be normal in the
life of a relic that they would be
handled sometimes with care, sometimes
with not not with care. Um, so yeah,
that's my belief, Joe. Like if I get,
you know, analysis from somebody like
Gary Nolan and he does this like, you
know, microscopic analysis of everything
and says, "No, Diana, sorry. This is
not, you know, I'll be Oh, that's too
bad. I really enjoyed having that belief
for 10 years."
>> But it seems like if the radiocarbon
dating was from 1988, like, shouldn't we
do some sort of an updated analysis of
what this thing is?
>> Yeah, that's right.
>> To settle it.
>> Totally. Yeah, I'm all for that.
>> Ask a question. Where is it now?
>> Where does it live? Is [laughter] it
like
>> I think it's I think honestly I think
it's in Tin, but I could be wrong. Yeah.
Yeah. In Italy.
>> Oh, wow.
>> Yeah, I could be wrong though. But I
think it is.
>> Can you look at it? You can go there and
look at it.
>> Yeah, I think you can.
>> Yep.
>> It's in the Cathe Cathedral of St. John
the Baptist in Turan, Italy. It's been
housed there since 1578. Okay. That's
where it's always been.
>> Amazing. No one's trying to steal it.
Don't say that.
>> Why? [laughter]
>> Well, I mean,
>> would they have ever made a fake to hide
the real one? And that's like maybe
we're testing the fake one.
I don't know. Got special powers or
something if you put it on.
>> Plot thickens.
>> Um, anything else should we talk about
before we wrap this up? Is there
anything else we didn't cover?
>> No. You have a you have an alien image
up here and he has horns. Looks like a
demon.
>> Yeah, that's the mothership logo. Comedy
mothership.
>> Oh, yeah. Okay.
>> Yeah.
>> Just saying. [snorts]
>> I know. There's no real significance to
it, though. It's just fun.
>> Yeah, of course. Of course.
>> Allegedly.
I see you did notice that though. It is
weird. I get it. Especially after we're
talking. I should have showed that to
JD. I'm like, you think that's
>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. He may have noticed it
and chose not to say anything.
>> I don't think he did.
>> Okay.
>> I think he probably would have brought
it up.
>> So, nothing nothing else to Is there
anything else you wanted to talk about
before we wrap this up?
>> I just published a book. It came out
yesterday called The Others.
>> And what is it about?
>> Uh, it's about stuff we've been talking
about, but it's also about religion and
about the spiritual sense and things
like that and AI. So, it has a uh it has
a a theory of ET if if you know we're
talking about ET. It has a theory of ET
in it
>> and a couple other things. So, yeah.
>> Uh what is your theory of ET?
>> Well, I'm I'm uh rehousing some theory.
So, I'm like the theory of uh advanced
technology
being what people are encountering when
they're encountering what they consider
to be aliens and ET. We talked a little
bit about this last time. It was
something that I was thinking of it uh
and I just uh rehashed it. So, it's it's
there in the book in a more developed
form. Uh, if I were to just do an
elevator description of it though, uh, I
would say that Stephen Spielberg's film
AI is a really good film about ET and
what he thinks, you know, if ET were I
know he's just done disclosure day, but
a but his movie AI seems like
>> when was that movie?
>> It was a long time ago, but it's really
good if you rewatch it today. Um, at the
end I'm not going to do well people
should have seen it already, right? At
the end there are the are uh aliens and
they're basically humans have long since
gone and their technology their AI has
improved itself to the point where it's
a life form and so that would be like
the theory of
>> I think that's probably
>> Oh wow. Hill Josnut rap science.
>> I kind of remember this
>> law.
>> It's about AI, but at the end it ends up
being kind of like a uh a theory of of
ET.
>> Yeah. Which I kind of have a feeling
that life eventually stops being
biological and becomes digital and maybe
that's what people are encountering.
>> Yeah, that's what the the others is. It
has a chapter or two chapters about
that. Yeah. All right. Well, Diana, it's
always fascinating talking to you. I
really enjoyed it. Thank you very much.
>> Uh, did you do the audio book or did you
have an actor do it?
>> No, I did it.
>> Thank you.
>> It's always better. It really is. It's
always better when an an author actually
does the audio book. There it is. The
others UFO AI and the secret forces
guiding human destiny.
And I really loved your other book too,
American Cosmic.
>> Oh, thank you. Thank you. Appreciate
that. All right. Thank you so much.
>> Thank you. Thank you for being here.
Let's do it again sometime next time.
You got another book.
>> Okay.
>> I'm sure you're going to keep writing.
>> All right.
>> Next time. Yeah. About [music]
Christianity probably.
>> Okay. Cool. We'll do it. All right.
Thank you. Bye, everybody.
[music]