I see my body hovering above my bed.
This is so real. And this is the grim
reaper to take me away. So I'm like
screaming and like trying to wake my
body up like I'm thrashing inside my
physical body. Wake up. Wake up. And
that is literally how it started. A
couple months will go by and then
suddenly at night it'll just happen
because maybe something walked into the
bedroom that's not supposed to be there.
There's more to this than just us
wanting it. The first couple years of
these experiences, I would experience
manted beings, which a ton of people
experience.
And for me, they were like, I don't
know. I didn't feel any uh bad
intention. I was taken and it was like I
was in this nursery hospital [music]
type of thing. This nurse walks out and
it's like, I I want you to meet your
child.
>> How you doing? I don't know if this
actually counts for what you do, but I'm
going to tell you something quick. I was
a Providence, Rhode Island police
officer from 02 to09. Um, I was injured
by gunfire and lost the use of my right
ear. Like I'm deaf in one ear. Some
years later, I developed the ability to
hear spirits or I became clar audient as
they call it. And I think it's because
of my injury. Um, but a lot of the
things I've been hearing now have been
picking up since a lot of this UFO stuff
has been coming out. It's been getting
more intense. Not schizophrenic. I'm
serious. You can check that I was a cop.
This is a real thing. And I would like
some help about this because I'm
confused about what I'm hearing and I
don't know anyone who can help me.
Thanks
>> ladies and gentlemen. Today I'm joined
by a fellow Canadian. Uh this is Jason
Quit, author and I would say
investigator,
um experiencer.
Uh you're someone who I met at Contact
in the Desert and I was quite taken with
because uh your your ability to I
suppose put into words a lot of the
out-of- body stuff, a lot of the sort of
even the western esotericism or the um
uh sort of philosophical stuff, the
ancient Greek uh whether it's what was
the recent book you put out on Atlantis.
>> Atlantis called The Shining Island. The
Shining Island I thought was really
fascinating. I haven't gotten a chance
to read it yet. I I want to read it, but
you talking about it at contact I was
really taken back because I was like,
"Oh, this is a brand new take." So,
thank you so much for joining me today.
Um, it's a real pleasure having you and
I look forward to speaking about all
these things that uh that I'm sure
you're really well versed on with you.
So, thank you again for joining me.
>> Of course. Thank you for inviting me. Uh
so Jason, for the audience at home, uh
how would you describe what it is that
you do? Like other than being an author,
what do you do? Well, I I started um
what do I do?
>> Um other than being an author, um I work
um selling crystals. Yeah. Is actually
like my real job.
>> Um I do teachings. I teach Chiong
and um I just kind of research. That's
that's what I do daytoday is just kind
of [snorts] wait till the next mystery
and try to figure out exactly um what I
can do to try to break that open.
>> Yeah. And
you've been researching this stuff for
quite a while. I take it. Now, we spoke
before the cameras turned on, but you
got into this through the crystals and
through the chiong and all of this, but
then you went from that to having out of
body experiences.
>> No, actually reversed.
>> Oh, the out of body. That's what got you
into it.
>> That's what really got me into it was
the out of body.
>> Um, it was the crystals and going down
this path of of the chiong um to try to
figure out this reality.
>> What was I experiencing? what did I need
to do? Because um when I I I'll say at
my past life, I was a musician. I was a
graphic designer. Um I opened up a
recording studio with my best friend,
you know. So that's where I started out
in life after college and things were
going great. I really enjoyed life and
life had another plan for me. Um, I
started to have these experiences of,
uh, sleep paralysis when I was at the
studio and back in the day where, you
know, we're going back to the early
2000s.
Um, I didn't know the Mineral Institute,
I didn't know anybody I could talk to
about this. I couldn't go on YouTube. It
didn't exist yet. Um, I had to go on AOL
or Yahoo search
>> or go to the library and try to figure
this out. And it was uh kind of like
that that kind of led me down this path.
And you know, I love crystals all my
life, don't get me wrong, but like when
I started to learn that maybe they could
help me with dealing with this outof
body experience stuff, that's when I
really started to get into crystals. So
take me down the path of your first
experience. I had filled you in before
the podcast on sort of what happened to
me. I say what happened to me because I
didn't go looking for it. And I'm sure I
I mean I'm sure you're probably the
same. A lot of people who experience it,
they don't go looking for it at first.
It kind of just happens to them through
uh through circumstance. But what got
you out of body the first time?
>> Well, it was actually anger.
>> Really?
>> It was a lot of anger because um like I
said, I was having these uh sleep
paralysis episodes.
>> Yeah. And they were happening very
frequently, you know, maybe even once a
week or even more. And what happened is
is that I would be locked in my body.
I'd be screaming to wake up. I can feel
things in my room with me. So it's like
I could sense something walking around.
And so I'm just in complete terror,
anger, fear. But you know, when it
happens so often, you kind of get I
don't want to say you get used to it.
>> You get numb to it. You kind of get numb
to it, but you get really frustrated and
angry like this is happening again. So,
one night I'm just like really
struggling inside my body. And when
you're in this state for me, it was like
there was another version of me. There's
another body within my physical body.
So, it's like I can move this thing
around inside my physical body. And it
was like I always say it's like my tomb.
So, I'm like screaming and like trying
to wake my body up. Like I'm thrashing
inside my physical body. Wake up. Wake
up.
>> And one night, I was just so pissed. I
was like thrashing so hard to wake up
that I popped out of my body.
>> Wow.
>> And I found myself on the ceiling just
like people describe in your death.
>> Robert Monroe having his first
experience as well.
>> And I'm looking down at my bed, which is
totally terrifying.
>> Yeah.
>> And I'm straight as a board on my back.
There's no covers on me and my eyes are
wide opened. So, I'm like on the ceiling
looking down at me, looking back up at
me
and okay, if that wasn't freaky enough,
uh my attention gets pulled to the foot
of my bed and there's this tall shadow
being and it was clear as day. It was
like, it looked dense, like it had a
physical form, but it looked like the
Grim Reaper. And it's like my heart
stopped and I instantly uh it was like
the slap of reality. It's like, did I
just kill myself? I see my body. I'm
hovering above my bed. This is so real.
Um
and this is the grim reaper to take me
away.
>> Wow. And it's like that that moment of
my life was so shocking, so terrifying
because remember, I wasn't looking for
this. I didn't know that this was going
to happen to me, but it did happen to
me. And from that moment, um well, in
that exact moment, I got scared so much.
I got sucked back in my body and woke up
and my heart was just like pounding out
of my chest in in fear like
what just happened to me? And that is
literally how it started.
>> Whoa. So, there's a lot to unpack here.
Um, first off,
I find it really interesting the part
about sleep paralysis because
from what I've gathered, it seems like
that is the out-of- body state. Um, I
had a friend of mine, I have a friend of
mine who can literally induce a sleep
paralysis on command. Um, every night if
he wishes to, which he doesn't cuz it is
I I've never had it. Um, but it's very
very scary apparently. It's it's
terrifying because you know often you'll
have the hag or somebody on your chest
or like some snake or some being and
you'll feel like oh my god I'm going to
die and and you can't leave your body.
And so I asked him one day, I said, his
name is Wes, and I said, Wes,
um, have you ever flown in your dreams?
And he goes, "No, never." And I go,
"Maybe that's why you're locked in your
body." Like, I've always flown in my
dreams. I fly in my dreams quite
regularly. And so for me, I think when I
had that
sleep paralysis state, I already had the
knowhow to sort of will myself up as one
does in dreams. Is that the same for
you? Have you had dreams? Have you flown
in dreams before that?
>> Yes, I have flown in dreams. So I I I
don't know if that's the same. But what
I will say is that for me it's that
sleep paralysis is kind of like the key.
That's like the state when you know your
body is shut off. And you know people
will say it's your brain shutting your
body off, you know, and then you
hallucinate. Well, it's true. You don't
want to go out in your dreams and act
them out when you're sleeping. But when
you're meditating, when you start to
learn how to meditate, like deep breaths
into the stomach, especially with
meditation or chiong, you can induce
that sleep paralysis, sleep paralysis
state where it's like your body starts
to feel that heat rise up. You start to
feel that tingling maybe like those
waves coming through and then you can
start to feel like okay, it's like your
your consciousness is now shifting. It's
like your body is shutting down. It's
like you've given the command. The body
is now shutting down. It's going into
its sleep cycle mode. But you are now
aware. You're now aware of that sleep
paralysis. And through that, you will
yourself. And I think the word will is
the best word possible because when you
try to force, you wake right up.
>> Right. Yeah. And it's the it's the old
mind awake, body asleep mantra that, you
know, one learns at places like the
Monroe Institute. Sorry, I think
someone's at the door right now. How
long? Okay. So, I want to get I really
want to dissect the out- of- body
experience stuff with you today because
as someone who's had them, I stopped
having them at one point. I think
willingly um because the last experience
that I had was a little frightening, but
I wanted to I wanted to try and
understand if there was a protocol that
you had that helped you navigate out of
the body. Now, you said the sleep
paralysis was like a gateway for you.
How would you
how would you go about inducing that
through meditation? Is that like 3:00 in
the morning? Is it when you're tired? Is
it late in the day? When do you do it?
>> Um, it varies. So, sometimes when you
have, let's say, like an afternoon nap
is sometimes this the easiest time to do
it really. Sometimes an afternoon nap
will just put you in there because
you're you're kind of like in this in
between state already. It's like you're
daydreaming and then suddenly your body
shuts off and you can do it. Uh the
trick that I tell people is uh I found
the easiest was if you wake up too early
as in let's say you wake up at like 4:00
or 5 in the morning and you're like oh I
don't have to get up till 9 then you
just go right back to sleep. So the
whole trick is you wake up at like 4:00
or 5 in the morning but don't move. Just
be awake. your body is still basically
asleep and then just go back there but
keep your mind aware and then you'll
feel yourself going and dropping through
those areas of awareness I would say.
>> Yeah, that's what happened to me. That
was like I'd have to at one point I knew
that if I drank a glass of water before
bed, like a half glass, I knew I'd have
to pee at like 4 in the morning or 3:30.
But then I also knew that if I didn't
drink too much water, I could probably
just hold it and go back to sleep. And
so once I'm in that state where I'm
like, "Oh, I I should go to the
bathroom." I think, "Oh, maybe I won't."
And I'll just start meditating. And
that's usually when I put the headphones
on and I'll start like
um sort of uh one of the gateway tapes
or whatever. Uh do you do the gateway
tapes? Um, a friend gave it to me um,
years after I was already astral
traveling
>> and I wanted to see if it would work.
And so I listened to it and I I don't
know which one it is cuz I know there's
many tapes, but it's the one where
you're taking the deep breaths and you
focus, let's say, on your toes and then
you kind of like work your way up.
>> Yeah, like focus 10.
>> I think that's what it is. That one for
me is like the easiest, best way. It's
just like you breathe because it's it's
already doing this kind of like cosmic
chiong breath where you're bringing the
energy to like the stomach. You're
focusing in on the breathing while
you're listening to u the frequencies.
But then what you're doing is you're
dropping your awareness into your body
and breathing in those different places.
And that's actually uh something that um
I teach in Chiong as well where it's
like um cuzQ chi follows the circulatory
system but it also follows where your
mind guides it. So it's like if I say to
you meditate and focus on your big toe
for example, right? And just breathe but
all your attention's on your big toe.
Soon it's going to feel like you're
pulling in chi. It's like your toe
starts to breathe. like you'll feel this
energy come in and out of your toe with
this focused intention and breathing
technique. So that's why I loved that
Monroe tape because it's something that
I was already doing. So I go down into
the feet, start breathing until I could
feel that in and out flow. And I'll I'll
say this as well is when you're
meditating, and I know you said you
meditate, [snorts] there's this um point
in meditation where you're breathing,
but it's almost like the environment as
well is breathing. Like you can feel
kind of like this push and pull in the
environment around you. And at first you
think, is this like my pulse? Is this my
breath? And then you're you're analyzing
it and it's like none of those. and
you're okay wait a second there is this
kind of like eb and flow in the
atmosphere around you and then suddenly
you kind of let go and you go okay maybe
this is like the flow I should be in and
you let go and you kind of join this in
and out flow and suddenly you expand
outwards um so there's there's many
different techniques and ways of popping
out
>> that's a beautiful way of putting it I
was as you were speaking imagining
myself through meditation yeah you do I
I guess I never quite uh realized it,
but yeah, there is that sense of sort of
almost being rocked back and forth. Uh,
very interesting. Now, how how many
times would you say over the years have
you left your body? How regularly do you
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use code area 52. Um I I can't even tell
you a number anymore. Um I would say in
my early 20s was the most frequent. Um
so this is when it was happening
constantly and I basically lived kind of
a a monk style existence where all I did
was meditate. All I did was chiong. And
I was I was so addicted to the
experience.
And I know I shouldn't have been. Um,
which we could get into later,
>> but you were young. And
>> I was young. I I I literally shut out my
friends and family because it's like,
you know, I I just needed to know. I
needed to get to these states. And it
was kind of like this uh I would say
kind of escapism.
>> Sure.
>> But also um it's like I felt like this
drive I needed to know. I needed to
understand more. So there was also a lot
of frustration in those early days
because sometimes you I would leave my
body no problem and sometimes I'd go
months without nothing happening and
then you you're like why is nothing
working and you try to figure it out and
I can't figure it out and um I would
just kind of say maybe there's more to
this than just us wanting it. H
>> maybe there is some type of control of
it and uh or maybe the stars just have
to be aligned or I don't know.
>> Yeah, maybe there's some type of
permission that is required uh in order
to attain it. Do you believe cuz one
thing that um that I've experienced
was the moment you let go is the moment
it happens and sometimes you think
you've let go but just by thinking about
letting go you haven't let go. And so,
um, it it does seem like when it does
happen, all the stars have aligned and
you're in that perfect state of between
sort of awake and sleep. Uh, but also in
that mindset where you're not thinking
about anything. You're literally not
thinking about anything at all. And, uh,
and you're able to navigate very clearly
in that state without, you know,
producing a strong sense of emotion in
any direction. It's all about control.
And this is the the biggest fault with
people trying to learn this and you know
it happened to me as well. It happens to
everybody is that when it happens to
you, you get really excited because wow,
I just did it. I just left my body. You
get really excited. You know, after the
terror, you know,
>> I say after 500 times, you get really
excited.
>> Yeah.
>> And then you're like, okay, I want to
like do this or I want to go here. I
want to explore. And it's like snap. You
get pulled right back in your body.
And for me, it's like, okay, I have to
stop that. I have to stop the
excitement. I can't work my emotions up.
My mind can't go wild. It's like I pop
out. I have to like learn how to be
silent. So, it's like there it seems to
me there is this other intelligence in
that world or the astral body itself has
its own intelligence to it. It knows
exactly what it has to do at that time.
And you become the observer of it. Mhm.
>> And that's how I found to stay longer in
that state. So I could have my awareness
to observe what's going on. And when I'm
doing it that way, then I get taken to
places and I I could prolong the journey
and maybe retrieve things, bring things
back with me. But the moment I I try to
control or say I want this or let's do
this just shuts me off.
>> That is interesting. So, do you think
that
the out-of- body state and again we say
out of body I don't know if that's the
correct term for what it is we're
experiencing like it's the closest thing
that we can think about right because
when you turn to look at yourself you
see a body lying there but
in reality you know the room isn't
exactly the same things are a little
different it's almost like your brain is
creating a reality based on memory to
make you comfortable does that make
sense it makes total sense because when
I first started coming out, it was uh my
bedroom, right? So, it's my bedroom.
There might be things out of place. It's
not exactly my bedroom. It can go
through my house, you know, my this is
when I would live with my mother and my
brother. They weren't there. It was like
an empty house. So, it was like a
separation. It was something else. And
then what I found really interesting is
that when I left the house, so let's say
like I I I go out through the roof, just
float up through the roof, I can see my
house, but then it's like jungle and
then it's like waterfalls and like
that's not where I live. It it's almost
like it merges
with uh a type of a dreamscape reality
type of thing.
>> Yeah. like your your brain is also
perhaps used to certain things and so in
order to make you comfortable or or to
have you just even understand what is
happening you might need some parameters
that you're familiar with. I think
that's exactly what's happening. You
know after all these years it's like why
did this look like this or why did this
being come in the being look like this?
I'm think I think it's our brains
literally trying to interpret and put it
together in a way that could un could
unravel it or understand it in a way
that you'll understand it,
>> right? Almost like an archetype,
>> right?
>> Okay. Yeah, that does make sense because
it is kind of like when people ask me
about it and I don't know too much about
it, you know, I've read a few books and
I've had half a dozen experiences. They
I haven't had many. Um,
but what I do know is that
the
experience feels objectively different
than a lucid dream. I've had plenty of
lucid dreams, many um many vivid dreams,
many many lucid dreams. Uh, and this
seems to fall into its own category
which isn't quite one or the other. like
it's not reality and it's not well
reality as we know it physically and
it's not a dream or a lucid dream and so
you know that was always where I was a
little confused because I'm like
objectively this is different. I don't
know if it's a new type of dream or
something that we don't have a word for.
I don't feel like I am
because the term out of body
is is what it feels like when you can
see your body and you're outside of it.
But I don't know that my awareness isn't
here and in my body at the same time.
Like I I don't know that I'm not in my
body. I just assume that. Um have you
given that any thought?
>> I have but you know I think the body
itself is a projection of again what we
believe. So, it's like m maybe we're
sending an orb of consciousness right
outside of us
>> or or um or our thoughts are connected
to, you know, this greater consciousness
field and all we're doing is tapping
into something else. There's also the
concept of the multi-dimensional body
where um we exist in all these
dimensions at once kind of like um panes
of glass almost, right? And basically
what happens is that you can shift from
one to the next. So it's like you have
the physical body in this reality and
then when you enter that reality you
have this kind of form that fits that
spiritual awareness of that space.
>> Right. I see. Which would make sense
when you know some people report seeing
their own hands like in the out of body
state. It's like you're creating that as
well. like you're almost again it's hard
to say what's happening because it's
sort of unchartered. Um
>> it's very difficult.
>> Yeah,
>> it's very difficult to see your hands
when you're out of body
>> and I've tried so many times to like
just kind of look down at my hands
>> and
it it doesn't it it just looks like kind
of light in the darkness like just light
in the darkness that you can see
through. Um, but it's almost like I had
to work so hard to to see that. It's
like, am I manifesting that to see it?
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. I think that could be part of it
because that's the first thing that um
when I the first time I willingly left
my body, which was the third out-of-
body uh event that I had was I was very
excited, extremely excited. Like I was
like, "Oh my god, it was coming back
from the Monroe Institute. It was like
months later after meditating every
single day finally it's happened again
this time you know on my own accord and
I remember not seeing anything um you
know couldn't see and I try to like you
know will my eyes open but I felt I was
out and uh and then I went I tried to go
to a place instead of a person and this
is uh interesting because it was the
following chapter that I read the next
day which had spoken about it but I was
trying to go to Paris for some reason.
And I was just like hurled through
space, but I couldn't see anything. But
I felt myself being thrown. And when I
stopped, I felt I was suspended. And I
felt the whole world kind of shift
around me like this, like like I could
feel it. And then as I peeled my eyes
open forcefully, I'm looking at this
giant churning cube, this black rock,
like massive monolith of a stone just
like churning in on itself. It's very
bizarre and terrifying. And I was just
like this big, like next to it. And uh I
remember closing my eyes, opening, and
there it was again. I was like, "Oh my
god." And um I wiggled my fingers and
then I got hurled sort of back into my
body. Um
you know, the next day I read in
Journeys, I think it was chapter 17 or
something like that. And he literally
said like, I mean, I was I was listening
to the audiobook actually and I was in
the shower and he said, "Uh, don't go to
a place, go to a person. and if you go
to a place, it's not going to work. And
I was like, oh yeah, I went somewhere in
between because I was trying to go to a
place, I guess. Have you ever found
yourself in places that you couldn't
recognize?
Um, yes, [laughter]
many times. I take it.
>> Well, yes, but um I'll give you the the
weirdest one. Okay.
>> Because it's still
>> still fascinating to me.
Um,
and and I'll just say that this was
after a mushroom journey.
>> Okay.
>> All right. After like the night after,
like you dreamt. Okay.
>> Yeah. So, it was the night after and I I
left my body and I found myself in this
other world. It was like this other
dimension and I was in the sky and I
looked like a giant amoeba. like just a
giant amoeba with all these like vibrant
colors pulsing in my like translucent
body and I'm in the sky and there's this
like grand forest underneath me as far
as you can see. The sky was like purple
orange. It was a very weird sky. And
there was other amiebas like me in the
sky. And there was like these uh like
almost like these snakes that were
uh they just had like colors through
them like they were in invisible. It was
so weird. And we were like dancing and
singing in the sky and these snakes were
like going around us and all through the
sky. I was there the entire night. I was
just there and it was like is this me
like in another form in another
dimension just having a party in the
sky.
>> Wow.
>> And then it's just like my consciousness
came back and I was like that was the
most bizarre
experience because I was not Jason. I
was this amoeba thing with other amoeba
things in the sky.
>> Wow.
>> And it wasn't Earth.
>> So crazy. And it wasn't Earth.
>> That sky. I've never seen a sky like
that.
>> Whoa. Yeah. I wonder if there is a part
of that where we're just like tapping
into like other beings existence and
kind of like changing the channels on a
TV, you know, testing different. Do you
think that like cuz there are people who
teach this stuff and you talk about this
stuff who often say that we journey out
of the body every single night whether
we know it or not. Is that something you
believe in?
>> I think so too. But I I would say that
the astral body itself is unconscious.
I think it's like it remains in this
unconscious state until you awaken it.
And then once you awaken it, it's almost
like this body double that um will come
when it's needed. So you know you asked
me before, you know, how many times have
I left my body? Like now I don't never
even try. I don't sit and meditate to
like leave my body. I don't go to sleep
at night and say I want to leave. Um I
leave naturally
when it's needed. So I don't have to do
anything. It's just like so maybe a
couple months will go by and then
suddenly at night it'll just happen
because maybe something walked into the
bedroom that's not supposed to be there
and it's almost like a immune response.
Hm.
Whoa.
That's an interesting way of looking at
it.
So, let's talk about that. Let's talk
about the the things walking in. Um,
you've met many sort of entities on
these journeys.
>> Yes.
>> What is what would you say? Okay. We're
gonna we're gonna dissect all of this
because this is this is really
>> where it intersects with the UFO world
and with perhaps ghost stories, I mean
everything.
What percentage of what you encountered
do you feel is at best
at sort of benevolent or neutral? like
what percentage is that versus
something perhaps maybe a little more
menacing?
>> I I would say from my experience um in
the beginning it was more menacing.
>> It was more menacing.
>> Yeah. So, um at first I think it was all
menacing.
It was it was kind of like beings or
shadows that um it felt like they were
trying to pull me out of my body or push
themselves into my body or like you said
um like the old hag thing where you wake
up and there's like this being on top of
you or this heavy shadow. Um it gets
very scary especially when you don't
know. And I think this is why a lot of
people when they first start to go out
they they turn to religion very quickly.
call on God very quickly because when
you first enter, you know, a lot of
people call it the the lower astral is
that suddenly there are things there
that are not friendly
and you have to learn how to deal with
them. So for me, it was just kind of
like uh fight like hell. So it was like
if this thing is on me, I'm trying to
fight it off. If this thing is trying to
pull me, I'm trying to fight it off. If
it's trying to get in me, I'm trying to
fight it off. That was like the first
couple of years because I didn't have
any teachers. So I I didn't know what to
do.
>> Sure.
>> And um so it starts like that and then
after a while it's it it again just like
with the sleep paralysis it becomes an
annoyance and you have this this anger
towards you.
>> So it's like this something will come
into the room and you'll get awoken and
you're not getting awoken in the
physical state. you're in this altered
state where you kind of sit yourself up
in bed or you don't even have to sit up.
You just kind of like turn your astral
head and you can like kind of see out
into the room and you're like, "Okay,
what's here?" And then there's this
thing. Let's say it's a shadow for
example.
And you know, it gets to a point where
you just lose the fear and you're just
like, "Okay, if you want to go, let's
go. Let's do this." M
>> and then after a while um you gain more
control over it and then
there are beings that were very that I I
can't I can't tell you if it was
positive or negative like for example in
the first couple years of these
experiences I would experience manted
beings which a ton of people experience
and for me they were like
they are kind of sh I I would say that
from my perception it was like they were
shocked that I can see them.
>> Wow.
>> You know, and
>> how tall were they?
>> They were very tall. Yeah.
>> It's like um if they were standing by
the door it's like they'd have to like
tuck
>> tuck their head in to come into the
room.
>> Were they Were they dressed?
>> No. No. The head is like this big.
>> Like cuz I know cuz it would come very
close like this close to you and that's
not a fun way to wake up. It's like you
know something's in the room and you pop
out and you just kind of look and
there's a thing like this in front of
your face. It looks exactly like a
praying mantis just very big and
sometimes there was one, sometimes there
was two in the room and it's like I
could hear them speaking to each other
and it's it's like it's almost like bird
sounds are like clicking
and and then I'm like I'll never forget
this because I'm like I'm sorry. This is
what I said to them. I wake up, they're
in the room. I'm like, I could hear them
talking to each other. And I'm like, I'm
sorry, I can't understand you. Can you
please speak English so I could
understand what you're saying? And they
were looking at each other and they just
went like this and they looked at me
like, is this did can he see me? And
it's just like then I got knocked back
out. I don't know what these things are.
>> Well, you think it was them that knocked
you back out?
>> Absolutely.
>> That's a terrifying thought. So,
>> but like I said, I don't know. I didn't
feel any uh bad intentions or I didn't
It's almost like catching something that
you're not supposed to see.
>> And something scary doesn't necessarily
mean it's bad,
>> right?
>> I mean, we're afraid of spiders and
spiders are really good. [laughter]
Objectively good.
>> That's great.
>> You know, they they help us. Bees, same
thing. you know, um they just have a bad
rap because of their physical appearance
and our, you know, history and
understanding of what monsters should
look like. Uh but so, okay, so you met
the mantis. Uh have you ever interacted
with them?
>> Just like that.
>> That's it.
>> Just like that.
>> Just those small transient moments where
they're surprised that you're observing
them
>> and then they kind of knock you back
out.
>> Yeah. It It's just like they're
surprised. It's like I keep waking up
and they're there and it's kind of like
they I've had one just do like a weird
like head pull back like it's like I
felt like I caught them.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. That's all I could say. There was
no communication whatsoever.
>> No, they didn't speak English at any
point. Nothing like that.
>> No,
>> they weren't wearing robes or anything.
A lot of them
>> we hear about. Um
>> No, I didn't see any robes.
>> What What do you make of the Mantis
archetype?
I I don't I I have no clue uh what's
going on
>> because like what do you think if you
were to take like a Yian sort of
approach to this? How would you
rationalize
the mantis as an archetype in terms of
like the psyche? What would you what
would you say that that represents? Um,
I would go back to
maybe a time
on Earth when there was intelligent. I
know insects are intelligent, but there
were bigger insects back then with the
oxygen level. Um, so maybe um, some of
these insects were bigger. Maybe, you
know, they're still here wrapped in
whatever this consciousness is outside
the physical. Um, and maybe that's where
they inhabit now. You know there's this
concept in shamanism and it's called the
spirits of nature or in Japanese or in
Shinto it's called the kami and it's
basically like a collective spirit like
everything has a spirit. So for example
like u an insect for example on the
other side there will be a spirit that
represents the collective of that being
or of that life
>> like an avatar or something
>> kind of like that and you know
I've heard a lot of stories especially
living in Canada where it's like you
have the the spirit of nature I love
this concept by the way because it helps
me kind of put together Bigfoot which is
like um they're like people are like
it's multi-dimensional or it could tap
in and out of you know this world. But
think about the spirit of nature concept
where let's say that all the trees and
plants are sentient beings like they're
a life form. They have an energy. They
have an awareness to whatever that that
awareness is. But they they can't like
move. They can't pick things up. They
can't do anything. But maybe their
consciousness, the spirit of nature
could manifest some type of form in the
physical for a limited amount of time to
do a certain tasks for them.
>> That is a funny concept.
You know, like an aggregor.
>> Yeah.
>> Um
>> but created by plants
>> but created by nature
>> and other animals. Yeah.
>> It's funny. The uh the Canadian Space
Agency, did you see their patch?
>> Oh, the parking lot.
>> Um what what parking lot? the Canadian
Space Agency.
>> Oh, the parking lot. Yeah, the giant
platform. That's Yeah. No, that's Yeah,
that's where they're going to test, you
know, whatever. I don't even know. But,
um, they have a patch uh that they put
on um Jeremy, I forget his last name,
but he was uh, you know, the the pilot
and astronaut that went on Artemis 2 for
the moon thing. And the Canadian patch
features a Bigfoot on it.
>> It was really quite uh nice. And they
explained the and it was not unlike
what you're saying, but they had like
all these different animals because it
was taken from First Nations and sort
of, you know, the orca and this and then
that represents different things. on
there was like the, you know, the
walking Sasquatch and um I forget what
the significance of it was, but I think
it was something or other uh about um
sort of the mystery of I don't [snorts]
know like the the Canadian wilderness.
Um I could be mistaken. I I really want
to look it up, but
>> you know, you you hear these stories all
the time and um for example, like
someone's in the woods and they're
looking at this tree or this bush and
suddenly this Bigfoot just materializes
out of it and just scares them, runs
away. There's a story I heard up in
Manitulan Island area, which is in
Ontario,
where, you know, someone was um on an
ATV
in the woods. It flipped over. They went
to go search for them. They couldn't
find them for a week or two. Finally,
the guy comes out of the cave. He comes
out of a cave in the forest and he's got
like broken leg and all these things.
He's found. They said, "You know what
happened to He said, "Well, I woke up
and something took me into the cave and
these little people, these little
things, they fed me. They healed my leg.
Like, they fixed it up for me and they
got me better to to leave the forest."
You know, it's like you hear stories in
Canada like this all the time
>> and you can go search for them. You'll
never find them. What again this whole
concept of the spirit of nature that
maybe there's this intelligence that can
manifest and literally
uh manifest and walk into our world to
do a task and then go back into the
ethers.
>> Yeah. like like uh not unlike Jacqu
Valet sort of control system idea where
we're dealing with some intelligent
omnipresent force that can for whatever
reason it deems necessary interfere
um at certain key moments in time and
sometimes to just even you know I know
Grant um
uh what's his name?
>> Cameron.
>> Yeah, Grant Cameron. Grant Cameron has,
you know, the theory of wow and and sort
of uh that it manifests in order to
inspire us or in order to Yeah. sort of
create that wonder uh instill wonder in
us. Um
>> I I think it's the same thing for having
these outof body experiences.
>> And you know, when you were telling me
your story,
>> but like the backwards version.
>> Yeah. It it's almost like cuz remember I
never asked for this. I wasn't looking
for it and it happened and when the
phenomenon happens to a person that um
wasn't expecting it.
>> Yeah.
>> It's it's like you have just shattered
their reality. You shattered their life.
Like my old life ended that day because
it was like I I saw something grander I
that I couldn't explain. And because of
that event, that one event in my life,
it now put me on this completely
different path, you know, meeting new
people, researching new things, going
and exploring these worlds. That would
never have happened if something didn't
put me into sleep paralysis. So, you
know, when you were saying at first I
thought that shadow was a very negative
thing because it was putting me in sleep
paralysis. I was fearful. I felt terror.
What if that was just all coming from
me? And that whatever that thing was, I
call it now I call it the initiator
>> because it's like whatever that thing
was, it put me on a new path. It's like
once I left my body, it was like its
task was done and then I didn't see it
again like that.
>> Oh, interesting. Or like a gatekeeper.
>> Yeah.
>> Perhaps just someone guarding the body.
The shadow people do come up quite
frequently as well. Have you ever ran
into them since then?
>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. I I I see them quite
often, but again, I don't know exactly
what they are. And I think that they're
actually living people. A lot of them,
>> not dead people. Living people.
>> Oh, other people exploring.
>> Yes.
>> Whoa.
>> I think that there's other I think it's
part of us. And I think it's also uh
wounded parts of us because I've had
experiences again. And I'll go back to
like this kind of shamanic philosophy
where it's like let's say you go through
a trauma. They say that the soul itself
um is shattered when you go through
certain traumas and that hurt piece of
you it now creates its own aggregor
basically. So that that energy of yours
is now separated from you and it starts
to grow. So it grows from let's say
emotions or thought forms or reliving
those memories of that hurt and that
pain but it lives outside of you but
it's connected to you. So you might be
attacked by these shadows and you're
pushing them away and pushing them away
and it might actually be a broken part
of yourself that used to be you and it
wants reintegration. It wants healing
but you're scared. you have no idea what
this is and you're trying to fight this
thing off of you, you know,
>> would that make would that make the
phenomenon then uh to a certain extent
psychological
like
>> deeply psych
>> like what we're dealing with is perhaps
just a projection of our own psychology
>> or others?
>> Do you think there's an objective
reality there?
>> I I really do think there is. What what
makes you believe that?
>> Just um from learning about uh different
native shamanic cultures and even going
back to ancient paganism as well. Uh
these are very old belief systems and it
it included this kind of spiritual
understanding of nature and spiritual
understanding of ourselves and knowing
that we are more than the physical body.
And you know this is where ritual magic
came from was understanding energy,
understanding the self, understanding
how to build that energy. Like you were
talking about um the aggregor for
example, you know, a bunch of people
putting their energies towards it,
giving offerings of energy to keep
feeding this thing to grow it and then
giving it tasks. You know, this is old
old stuff.
>> Yeah. Uh but then we kind of get into
the place of the last couple thousand
years where it's like it's demonized
and for good reason for a lot of it. Um
but it's also kind of been erased from
us.
>> Why do you think why do you why do you
say it's a there's a good reason for it
to be demonized?
Well, I can say that um
a person that knows these things, knows
how to use these things
>> has an advantage over people that don't
know these things.
>> I see. Okay. I see what you're saying.
So, like the manipulation of reality.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Okay. And that's that's demonized.
Um
>> well, we're not we're not supposed to
know about certain things. And if we
don't understand it, how can we protect
ourselves against it? How do we build
our own energies to understand the
difference between something, you know,
that's attacking us? Um, you know, a lot
of people go through things and, you
know, this is not medical advice, but,
you know, there's some people that,
let's say, they have a certain thoughts
that come into their mind or certain
triggers that keep getting pushed. And
you know what? If this was like a
spiritual kind of parasite
>> that um continues to um push these
buttons on you to extract energy,
>> you know, so this is their goal. So they
want to Yeah. It's almost like trying to
keep the human in a perpetual state.
Whatever that state is, obsession,
addiction, sickness, keep them in a
perpetual state so that they have access
to you and your energy.
>> And if we think that this is invisible
and it doesn't exist,
then we have nothing to fight against
it, you You know, and it just it's just
knowledge that will separate someone
that knows how to deal with this and
someone that doesn't.
>> Interesting. Do you think that the
ritual matters?
Like when it when it comes to these
things, we're speaking about magic with
a K here. Do you think that the
individual sequences or steps to
to be able to do some of these things?
Do you think that they actually matter
or is it the energy behind them that
matters more? The ritual is extremely
important to start.
Okay. You have to you have to build the
structure of intention. All right. And
the ritual is the continuation. It's
almost like the muscle memory of the
building of the action.
>> I see.
>> And then after all that, you you need
the form. You need steps one through 10
to do it so many times that you now you
become formless.
>> Okay.
>> Now you don't even need to do the
ritual. It's almost like ingrained as
like a spiritual muscle.
>> Interesting. Because I I I've given a
lot of thought to that as well as
someone who, you know, for 20 years
being a professional magician,
very skeptical about these things and
yet completely intertwined with them at
the same time. like
everything from a magician's branding,
you know, if you're a magician out there
and you got a business card, it's like
you got the name, you know, oh,
deception artist or like it's it's it's
ingrained in there and then there's like
pentagrams. There's all these like, you
know, sigils and and and sort of signets
and and whatever that have these ties to
Magic with a K. Like I mean the initial
um the initial books on magic were
written you know they're 600 years old
and they were about ritualistic magic
but how to
sort of invoke these things through
trickery
>> and that's where eventually parlor magic
came from was using the techniques that
were used to fool people into believing
the ritualistic stuff and using it for
entertainment purposes and sort of
creating that dichotomy. I mean that
separation between the two where now the
most ironically the most disillusioned
people are magicians like they they
completely don't believe in any of that
stuff. They're incredibly skeptical
about all the magic with a K stuff and
they've completely separated the ritual
for entertainment only.
Where is now I'm starting to believe or
at least I'm starting to uh I don't know
my conviction levels is a little higher
than it was before on the idea that
if you can trick the mind into believing
something's real that that is a key
ingredient into these rituals and that's
a key ingredient into creating these
aggregor creating these um
manifestations or aortations or whatever
it is um like that's the ingredient for
me. Would you would you agree with that
or would you
>> I I would say that suggestion is very
powerful.
>> Yeah.
>> Because you're getting the person then
to go along with your energy. So they've
now given you access to their energy.
Okay. To their life force where then
they can now build this reality with you
because they've already submitted to
that suggestion.
Um,
and again this is I don't know much
about like um the type of magic that
you're talking about but I do know that
it's like we have
if you go back to the Egyptian system we
have something called ka which is like
the energy body and
that ka is something that you take from
life. So you could take it from uh food,
you could take it from the air, you
could take it from the sun. You know,
every time um you're consuming
something, you're taking that energy and
you're you're satisfying the ka within
you. You're building this energy light
body.
>> And it's almost like so there's it's
kind of like the matrix where it's like
you're the battery and you can build. So
how strong is your battery? And the
stronger your battery is,
you could push and pull energy better.
And this is also a concept in Chiangk,
>> right?
>> You know, so you have to build your
energy body up. You have to strengthen
your electromagnetic fields. You got to
get the flow going. Your connection to
the earth in the sky. And then once you
have this kind of energy, your
suggestion level and what you can do
with that energy is greater and greater
and greater. What's something that you
would deem as an objective
um example that sort of proves any of
this? And I mean proof in a loose term,
but like what would you point to? Uh
would you point to a specific practice
that brings you something? Would you
point to something you've personally
manifested in your life? or how would
you to someone who's dubious about these
things say no here's an example of of
this working?
>> Um I would say the my favorite would be
instant healing. M
>> so like kind of like a miraculous thing
happens to you and um this has happened
to me on a number of occasions and I'll
tell you like just a very simple story
um you because there was a time where I
was doing personal sessions with people
like doing like energy work in Chiang
and I was helping this man out to his
car um this is an older man in a
wheelchair so I'm putting him in his car
and I slam the door on my middle finger.
And you know, you know those times where
it's like you slam in the door and you
pull your finger out and my nail was
already black. Like it was that instant
and it was just throbbing with pain. And
I'm like, okay, I know I'm going to lose
this nail, right? So I'm like something
clicks. It's like, okay, I need to like
use my energy. I need, you know, I'm
taught all these things. I need to like
do it.
>> And you're teaching them,
>> right? So, I go in I go into my room and
um I have all these different essential
oils and I have all these different
crystals and I'm like, "Okay." And just
I knew I had to pick up this crystal and
I took I just I knew I had to take that
oil and I put it on my finger and I put
it on the crystal and I'm just breathing
and and one of my teachers used to teach
me and I don't recommend this for
everybody. I'll just tell you what they
taught me is that um the pain is the
healing. Okay, that was that was the key
in this teaching. They were saying the
pain is the healing and never go away
from the pain. Go into the pain. Try to
experience the pain as much as you can.
All right, so that was one of the
teachings that was given to me and I'm
like, okay, I'm going to do it now cuz
my finger is just throbbing in pain and
I'm just breathing, doing the Chiang
breath. I'm focusing on the pain in my
finger throbbing and it it's almost like
it felt like a hose open. It's just like
this energy opened in my finger and it
felt like um hot air, like extremely hot
air was like blowing out of my finger.
Like that's exactly what it felt like
just like a valve.
>> Just a valve opening up and like hot air
just shooting out of my finger
>> and I was like,
>> did you feel the pressure subside?
>> Yeah. And I never felt this before. This
was like an energetic thing. I've never
felt this experience before in my life.
And I just like, okay, this is new. I'm
like I'm doing something.
>> Yeah. And so then I go to sleep in the
morning. I wake up and I look at my
finger and it was it had no sign of
anything. Like it was black when I
started. In the morning it was
completely fine and there was no pain.
And for me that was like I just
witnessed a miracle.
>> Wa. It was still black though.
>> No.
>> No.
>> No. Completely gone.
>> No way.
>> Like overnight.
>> Whoa.
>> Overnight. Now, here's the here's the
stupid thing, and this is stupid just
because it's me, is that I should never
play football, right?
>> Yeah.
>> Literally a week after this incident
instance, my friend says, "Let's throw
the football around." So, we're in the
backyard throwing the football around
and, you know, it's a real football. And
it, you know, spiraled and again, it hit
the same freaking finger on the tip.
right on the tip like and um I think I I
I don't know if I didn't get it checked.
I don't know if it was broken or not.
All I know is the finger blew up to
about three fingers.
>> Like it was that bad and that swollen
and I couldn't move it.
>> And so I did it again.
>> Grab that crystal, grab that oil. I'm
like, it worked last week.
>> I did it again and the exact same thing
happened. This thing opened up. The
pressure released.
>> But the next day it was still there. It
was much better. But it took like three
days.
>> Yeah.
>> Instead of overnight.
>> Wow.
>> And then I'm like, okay, who who's ever
like guiding me or teaching me, I've
learned my lesson. I don't need to be
hurt anymore.
>> So, what did you feel when you were like
going towards the crystal and the oil?
Like, did you just unconsciously this
one and this one? Or was there like a
pull? Did you feel something?
>> It Well, it's like an unconscious pull.
>> Okay.
>> It's like um I don't know why I chose
those crystals. And
>> um I just knew that that was the one.
>> Huh.
>> And if you knew me back then where I
lived, my room had I think a crystal on
every shelf. So there was probably
hundreds of crystals to choose from. But
I went right in on one of them and I had
a Sorry about that. And I had a display
of about 50 different essential oils and
I just was like, I need this one.
>> H. So yeah, I I don't know why I picked
those two, but for me it just made
sense.
>> And you think that mattered versus the
other ones? You think that was the
specific ingredient, or was it again
more the intention?
>> I don't know.
>> Right.
>> I don't know. It could have been both.
Could have been suggestive. I don't I
don't know.
>> Yeah.
>> But remember, I'm in a I'm in panic
mode.
>> Sure.
>> I'm just like running right like I
didn't I kept a straight face to the guy
who drove me away. I just like, "All
right, goodbye." and I ran in and just
did what I had to do
>> because I think that, you know, we often
talk about this term scientifically as
like a placebo effect and then explain
it away with that like that's some sort
of satisfactory answer to the problem.
Placebo is magic like that it doesn't
make sense. It shouldn't work.
>> Right? Like we agree when you, you know,
have clinical trials and people have are
given a placebo and all of a sudden are
feeling or actually doing physically
better, which you know, I think there's
proof of this.
I mean, to just chalk it up to, oh,
that's just placebo. That's how the mind
works. Like, for me, that isn't
satisfactory. Like, there is something
happening where suggestion is powerful,
like extremely powerful. And so this is
why I would ask the question, does the
ritual matter? Does the specific
ingredient matter? Does that crystal
matter? And I think it matters if you
believe it matters. If that makes sense.
Like if you
have a strong enough
um belief or even faith or knowing
without knowing that this will work,
then that's the ingredient that you
need. Um,
do you know do you kind of understand
what I'm saying?
>> I would say that the mind is the most
important ingredient.
>> It's like you have to focus your mind on
the outcome and the goal. Yeah.
>> And I think this is part of the magic as
well. Um, so you know just a simple
thing like when I was uh in the hospital
I actually broke my back.
>> Well,
>> before so 2017 I broke my back and so
I'm in the hospital.
>> That's not too long ago.
>> No.
>> Wa. What happened?
>> Um fell down some stairs. Oh my gosh.
Okay.
>> But not this way. I fell sideways
stairs.
>> Yeah. It was dark and
>> that's not how you go downstairs.
>> I would not recommend it.
>> And it's funny because like I've hurt
myself in the past a lot. And when I was
at the bottom of the stairs, I just
thought I was winded. I was like, "It's
okay. I just need to get my breath back
and I'll get back up." And you know, my
wife is like, "Don't move." And we're
calling the ambulance and all this.
Thank god she did because me, I would
have just tried to get up. Yeah.
>> Um, but in the hospital room, I didn't
ask her to do this. Um, but my wife, you
know, she there was this uh whiteboard
that you can write on and she wrote, "I
get stronger every day."
>> Just simple like a simple message. And a
lot of people, you know, when they go
through like a traumatic um thing in
their life, a life-changing thing, it's
very easy for the mind to go dark. It's
very easy to say like I'm going to give
up. I'm never going to do this again.
This is my life is going to change.
You you can't have your mind go there.
You have to like set your mind into
goals. Like and I I know it's hard to
say maybe there's people watching
they'll say, "Well, in my situation,
it's very hard to think that way because
of these things that I carry." But even
if you carry some really bad things or
you've been dealt a really bad hand, you
still need to keep that mindset going.
Like I I was telling you earlier, I I go
to Japan quite frequently and it was
like a week before I was going to go to
Japan. So I had to cancel my trip. And
um you know, I was speaking to my
friends in Japan. I said, "Listen, the
doctor said that you know 3 months I'll
start feeling a little better you know
after the surgery. I have two rods and
10 screws in my back. And so I said to
my friends, like this was like right
after the accident. I said to my
friends, "Don't worry, just set the
date. I'll be in Japan in 3 months, you
know." So I was already in my mind
>> convinced
>> convincing myself that I'm going to be
in Japan in 3 months,
>> you know, and I was
>> and that's what helped. That made the
difference.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. That makes sense to me that that
type of strong conviction about things.
U you know, you don't have to look
further than someone saying, "I'm going
to fail this test. I'm going to fail
this test. I'm going to fail this test."
And the other person being like, "I'm
going to pass this test." And watch
watch them both fulfill their own
prophecies. They're they are
self-fulfilling prophecies. And we do
that regularly every day. Everyone
listening now can point to someone in
their life who has one of those two
things. Either this person who's like,
"I'm just unlucky." or this other person
who goes through life feeling like
they're the luckiest person alive and
and both of their lives sort of
unfolding accordingly. And so yeah, it
is a and that's really nice of your wife
to put that up in writing because I
think that's probably something that you
needed to read.
>> Yeah.
>> At that moment.
>> Um very cool. I want to go back to some
of the beings that you encountered. We
we veered a little u into into the the
dark arts of magic here, but um I do
want to talk about them a little bit
more because I think there's an
interesting intersection between
euphology and the study of consciousness
in regards to out of body and astral
states. Uh the entities are often
uh mirrored. They're often talked about
in both cases. But one thing also is
with abductions
um many many many many of the abductions
I would say possibly a vast majority I I
don't know the exact number but it feels
like a majority of the uh abductions of
the the takings are happening in the
non-physical
uh where the soul body is sort of pulled
out of the body and through the wall
that these beings themselves run through
the walls and they are also non-physical
Um, what's your take on that?
>> I feel like I'm talking to myself now.
[laughter]
>> Yeah.
>> Because this is what I've been saying
forever. Um, ever since I learned about
this um, and there was this uh, writer,
his name was Bob Mitchell.
And this is the conversations that me
and Bob would have because, you know, he
was documenting experiences of
abduction. That was his thing. He really
liked taking down. He was a journalist.
So he took down everybody's story that
had abductions.
And when he heard my story and I was
saying, "Okay, this is like your
consciousness is being taken out of your
body." And because you've never had this
experience before, it's so real that of
course you think you're taken
physically. 100% you're taken physically
cuz you don't know the difference if
you've never done this before.
And I said, "Okay, Bob, listen.
Tell me in the in all your cases in
journalism of all these cases, let's do
like a a one to 10, what happens in
their experiencing of abduction? And
they go, you know, well, at first they
get woken up, let's say in the middle of
the night. They feel like their body is
frozen. They can't move in their bed.
I'm like, okay,
let's keep going. They may start to uh
feel like a buzzing or a warm sensation.
and they may hear like metallic sounds
and then there's like a separation. It's
like that now they're floating above
their bed. I'm like, "Okay." And now
they go either like a white light comes
in or they get taken through the windows
or the walls and now they find
themselves in a ship and there's beings.
I'm like, "Okay, now let me write down
exactly my out of body experience."
>> Yes, I see where this is going. you
know, and it's like exactly from 1 to 10
almost exactly the same as someone
that's um documenting their own
abduction scenario. And so for me, I
came into this from the shamanic
background, the spiritual background. So
when I was having these experiences of
altered states, I knew they were altered
states. I knew what I was entering into.
I knew that my body is sleeping in bed.
my consciousness is separated and now
I'm having these experiences.
Whereas someone that is having these
experiences where they're not aware,
it's very terrifying. It's very real.
What I found incredible is that in my
own personal out-of- body states is that
I've come in contact with again beings
that are described in abduction
scenarios. So I'd come across those
mantids, I'd come across those grays,
I'd come across those reptilians, I'd
come across them. And in my journeys,
I'm like, "Wow, this is an outofbody
experience.
So it it was like a mystery being solved
for me." And and I'm not discounting any
physical things whatsoever. I I'm not
discounting anybody else's physical
experiences.
>> No, of course. But I'm saying from my
perspective, I came from it from the
altered perception.
>> Yeah.
>> And
funny enough, people that go on shamanic
journeys that do plant medicines like
iawasa or uh peyote or mushroom
ceremonies or, you know,
they know what they're doing. They're
going on a journey. They're taking these
plant medicines and they find themselves
where being taken to to UFOs.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, the shaman, their friends will
be right with them on the ground,
>> you know, singing their songs or putting
sage around them and saying, "You're
doing great and here's a bucket to throw
up in." But in their experience, they're
not there. They're on a ship. Sometimes
they're being operated on. They're being
healed. So we have to kind of we can't
ignore that.
>> No, there's a correlation to be made. I
I definitely think and I and that's one
of the reasons I want to bring it up
because I think that like there is so
much crossover now like you said that
doesn't discount
the physical stuff. Um, more
importantly, I think
once people, especially people who are a
little more, let's say, materialist or,
you know, less inclined to look into the
esoteric stuff, they would be quick to
say, "Oh, sleep paralysis. Got it. Done.
We're out of here. We we solved it. It's
sleep paralysis. That's what you did.
Oh, you saw alien sleep paralysis." And
they just brush it the entire thing off.
And that's what I'm always trying to
like explain to people who might be a
little more skeptical is that well
perhaps there's more to that sleep
paralysis stuff than you might think.
You know, brushing off something as
sleep paralysis is easy, especially if
you haven't had it. Uh, just like one of
these encounters, uh, or an out-of body
experience or even some type of
condundalini experience or, uh, breaking
through on DMT. Like, all of these
things are easy to brush off
>> if you haven't had a firsthand
experience with them. And so explaining
that to someone who hasn't had it is uh
as I looked at the time by the way it
was 11111
very uh very fitting. I this is like the
first time I looked at it too. Um, yeah,
I I think there is definitely a
correlation, but that shouldn't stop us
from studying,
you know, what is going on? Like, why
are we seeing the same beings?
>> You know, some people will say, "It's
all in your mind.
>> It's it's a hallucination." And I go to
them, I know it is [laughter] all in my
mind. It's all in your mind, too.
>> Yeah. Everything's all in the mind.
>> We're all taking it and putting it
together through our own filters. him
>> and we're trying to make sense of our
reality and our reality is a trip.
>> Yeah.
>> Just just when you actually look at who
we are as a species,
where we are on Earth, where we are in
space, if we keep going and going and
going, you realize like this is nuts.
Like how do we even exist? This is magic
that we're sitting here and talking.
>> Yeah, it is. And it it is magic. But at
the same time, there's a part of me that
feels like this is incredibly primitive.
Do you know what I mean? Like there is
something miraculous that we're sitting
here making vibrations with vocal cords
and that you're picking up what I'm
saying and instantly translating it in
your mind and it makes sense to you, but
it's so slow. It's it's not the it's not
the I don't know. When you have these
dreams or when you have these
experiences, there is a knowing that
happens. noises or like there is an
understanding that careful if you do
this this will happen and it's instant.
You don't have to put words to it. You
don't have to be told anything. It's
just a knowing and
it's just uh this this almost seems to
be like the slower modality in terms of
communication that we found.
>> Well, you know, they keep saying we're
um spiritual beings living in a physical
body,
>> right? And if that's the case, then we
are already telepathic. We're already we
already know the future. This has
already happened. We've lived thousands
or infinite lives. We've been through
time and space. So maybe this is just
like uh what we're experiencing now is
just like the tiniest little seed of
that spiritual consciousness is being
placed in this body to have this
experience. and being here for this
amount of time, you grow that kind of
spiritual being from this little drop in
the sea to maybe like a glass of water
and then it gets poured back into the
ocean,
>> right?
>> You know, it's just
we just are experiencing this right now.
And this is another thing you learn in
the out of body experiences. It's also
what you learn on all these other plant
medicines and it's the uh dissolving of
boundaries. [laughter]
All right. And uh the best way that I
could explain
dissolving a boundary is what is a
boundary? You could say our body is a
boundary. So we exist within our body.
We exist within our mind, right? So we
identify as this thing here. I'm Jason.
You're Chris. Like we identify as these
two individuals and we're having this
life. Now what if we dissolve that
boundary? Who are you? You know, so now
you've lost your body. Now you've lost
your mind. Where does that consciousness
kind of escape to? What's that next
boundary? What is catching you next? And
in these experiences,
if you do want to go deeper and deeper
and deeper, it's almost like you kind of
dissolve the boundary. Dissolve the
boundary until it's like, oh my god,
it's like oneness.
>> It's it's just this consciousness. It's
just this field. And you know, as we're
coming down, it's like coming down
through the dimensions is a good way of
describing it. It's almost like it's
just like a doorway. You come through a
density as a doorway. You get this
understanding or knowledge or body and
then you come down through this and you
get this understanding it. And when you
when you pass or when you're going into
these very deep states, it's almost like
you're going the opposite direction.
You're saying, "Okay, I'm going to leave
this dimension. I'm going to leave this
body and now I'm over here." Well, you
know, I'm bored here now. I'm going to
leave this and go out here until And
then how do you explain that to
somebody?
>> Yeah.
>> You know, you come back and you're like,
man, I was everything. Yeah.
>> Good job. Anyways, [laughter]
>> you wouldn't believe what I saw. No,
absolutely. Have you ever Have you heard
of the um the Flatlands Bob analogy?
>> Yes.
>> Yeah. So, that kind of idea there where
you take a you know, if you appeared in
the two dimension, like if I stuck my
finger in a two dimension, they would
just perhaps see a line appear or
something and not the entire hand,
right? Yeah.
>> Um and then if I picked them up and
said, "Hey, this is up. explain to your
friends what up is. And this
two-dimensional figure would be like
it's kind of like forward and backwards
except it's up and down. I don't know. I
don't know how else to explain it. You
know, there's there's no words that can
describe that.
>> It's like your experience when you said
you tried to open your eyes and you saw
the cube.
>> Yeah.
>> The energies going around it. It's like,
okay.
>> Yeah. Some tesaract, some
fourthdimensional object is all I can
sort of say. It is interesting when you
think about those dimensions though
because like I can I can draw
a
a representation of a three-dimensional
object in two dimensions
just like we can create a representation
of a fourthdimensional object in the
third dimension which is like a tessact.
I and it's just hard for me to
comprehend that I'll never be able to
see a fourthdimensional object or sorry
to perceive a fourthdimensional object
in the fourth dimension. I can only ever
stare at it just like this little
two-dimensional cube and just have an
idea of what a fourth dimension could be
like. But I could never but I can reach
into lower dimensions in my existence
and understand what the third, the
second, and the first dimension are. I
have a very faint grasp on what the
fourth dimension could be. Uh but you
know above that you have no access
>> right and I think that's also when we
leave and and do these experiences the
brain has to process that information.
So it needs to kind of create those
archetypes, create those scenes or those
beings for you to integrate whatever you
just went through which could be very uh
traumatizing or very hard for a lot of
people like especially uh in the
shamanic journeying. You know a lot of
these journeys is like animals will come
and rip you to pieces and eat you and
then you get reassembled and you wake up
like a new person.
>> Well is that actually happening to you?
I don't think so.
But that's the way that it's
interpretive. It's like a shamanic
language of of of uh dissolution and
then coming back together.
>> So
>> yeah, ego death or whatever.
>> Yeah. Like so we can't understand it.
But again I think be if like again with
the whole concept of uh boundaries of
dissolving boundaries
it's like every time you hit the next
one think of it as a container or your
next body or or next thing and it's only
in that body that then you can
experience that fourth dimension
experience because I know like with
astral travel
>> you know people will explain astral
travel as there's no space or there's no
time so there's different laws of
physics. There's something different
about that space that allows you to,
let's say, jump to other timelines or
alternative timelines or jump from one
location to the next either through a
portal like you've experienced
>> um in virtually no time. You could have
crossed time space dimensions instantly,
>> you know. So, the laws change, the rules
change as you enter into these different
states. Do you think there is um a
substrate
in this reality that is fundamental
across all dimensions?
>> Can you explain that a little more? So
like we might consider it like zero
point field or the quantum field or the
vacuum um as this sort of omnipresent
fundamental
thing that exists across all dimensions
like like this might be the primary
fundamental
thing dimension if if you will and then
like built upon that is like this this
secondary reality which is like our
physical reality. Right.
>> Right. But we have to use this to build
this. Um do you think across all
dimensions there is a fundamental
substrate?
>> Yes. Yeah. And um
the only word I can call it is the void.
>> From my understanding of it, it's like
the only way I could describe it is kind
of like a old Egyptian creation myth,
you know, where the void is kind of like
the dark cosmic waters. So the god none
and it's just darkness chaos there's
there's nothing to it but this is like
the turning of creation and then once
that spiritual form has awareness it
separates from it and it becomes the
light and because of that light now
exists it shines and this mound of earth
comes up so it's building this creation
this reality and from those two aspects
rising out of this darkness suddenly
Now, creation could be born and
materialized in different ways.
>> So, it's almost like like you're
drawing, it's just kind of like this
stepping stone of from um this
underlying
something. And it's funny because when I
say this underlying something, that's
who me and you are.
>> Sure.
>> We come from that. We return to that. We
never We're in it right now.
>> Yeah. It is everything.
>> It is everything. But it's it's how do
we experience it? Like I know I'm, you
know, I I'm not delusional. I know I
can't stick my hand through this table
right now. You know, there are laws that
govern this world. Um,
but then again, it's like
the laws that govern this also govern
other things. And that's why I said that
I think that as we transfer through
different dimensions or different
altered states, these laws do get
changed. And that's why in the out of
body experience, you know, you could
pass through the walls no problem
because maybe you and it are just a
projection.
>> Yeah.
Yeah. It's it's a it's a mind-boggling
thing to think about and I often think
about it in the face of sort of trying
to explain away
you know our reality and what it is.
Like if you look at if you take the
material the materialist take of it
would be you know the brain exists and
the brain makes consciousness and the
brain projects things and that's you're
perceiving things because of the brain
and where you know I where I think that
is just completely false is that we seem
to agree that like there is a quantum
vacuum the void or whatever it is even
science agrees that there is something
right that everything is made of that
everything is attached to some web some
cosmic web or whatever. Um but the thing
is we're trying to
take this secondary reality, this
physical reality that we live in and
we're trying to box this so it fits
here. We're you know what I mean? We're
like making a physical box and being
like this is what everything's made of.
And then we're assuming things and based
on those assumptions we make formulas
that that that turn out to be correct in
our mathematics so that it proves you
know quote unquote that that is what
reality is is that oh that's all it is.
It fits in this three dimension and now
we understand it. I feel like it's
impossible to do that. You can't take
something that's fundamental, have the
offshoot of that fundamental thing that
the the whatever this offspring is here
that we live in and fit that into what
we call reality. There's no way.
>> How how can you blow out a candle
through a mirror?
>> Yeah.
>> You know, it's like
it's like we're the reflection of
something and we're trying to hold on to
the thing that's making the reflection,
>> right? but you can't because you're
behind this pane of glass, you know. So,
it it's very difficult to kind of wrap
your mind around [laughter] it.
>> Yeah. That's like somebody without ears
uh telling me based on numbers what
music is and it's like or you know what
I mean? And you're like you can't fully
appreciate music I think if you don't
hear it. You sure you can have an
understanding of it and there is a math
to it. Absolutely. So you can make your
formulas and you can prove that you know
the octaves are there and like
everything has to follow a certain
rhythm and flow and yes but without
hearing it how can you possibly
understand it and how can you fit it
into this box of mathematics. There is a
whole other dimension to music that has
nothing to do with math and that is the
interpretation of the sounds and how
they make you feel and everything else.
And I'm sure there's a math to that. But
there is this dissonance between the two
that we seem to ignore or you know just
for the sake of our own sanity you know.
>> Yes. Yeah. And you know, you're talking
about music and I'm a music guy and the
secret to music is space
as in you know
>> the silence between the sounds you know
you need both and I think this is what
we're we're talking about. You have to
kind of experience both this in and out
type of breath to understand these
things. So again, it's like
it's the same thing as like philosophers
in ancient times. We're trying to
explain the inexplainable,
>> right?
>> You know, and we can
>> and package it
>> and package it and say, "I figured it
out. [laughter]
Here it is. Here's the formula. Go to
sleep now.
>> Here's the Hig Bzon. It's done." Like,
pop your champagne. We've we figured out
reality. No, it's like it's almost like
when you look out into space for
example,
um now with the telescopes that we have,
we know that it's like I would say it's
like we infinite like our mind can't
even accept
the scale of what the universe is and is
this the only universe
>> and then you have dimensions within the
universal structure. So it there's such
a grandness in scale
and the thing is when we turn it around
and go to a microscopic level and you
keep going and going and going you're
like wow this is like never ending as
well. So we're like kind of like in this
middle place between scales just like
the music scales and we're we're just
experiencing this tiny little vibration
of creation and as we go this way or
this way it doesn't matter. It's it's
infinite type of experience.
>> Yeah, beautifully said. Yeah, there is a
as above so below. it is uh infinite in
both ways and if you zoom in or zoom out
far enough it starts to look awfully you
know similar
um
>> and that's why I've thrown the towel
>> yeah just it's like you know how much
more can you try to figure out um I'll
just tell this this one thing is that
>> because I spent years and years of like
meditating try to find these or
fine-tune these uh ideas
and
um I got this this message and it was
you need you can't live your life
between four walls.
It's like because that's what I was
doing. I was sitting in my room and
meditating between four walls and I'm
thinking I'm going to figure out life.
>> No, you need to get out. You need to
talk to people. You need to experience
things. Get out. Stop what you're doing.
It was a It was a pretty strong message.
And I'm like, "But I'm meditating. I'm
going to find the secrets of creation."
They're like, "Not in your bedroom. Go
outside, get some fresh air."
>> Yeah. Yeah. I that's I completely agree
with it's it's it's an epiphany that I
had myself after my last out-of- body
experience was you know I'm on this
journey trying to use my body as a
microscope you know to look inwards and
to be like okay what can I discover
about the universe and the answers and
the answer to life the universe and
everything so to speak and when I got
this sort of semi confirmation while I
was meditating in broad daylight light
and seemingly left my body or felt that
way without falling asleep completely
lucid walking around my room. Um you
know afterwards I was very excited about
that and the thought popped into my head
of
okay
there is more than my physical body.
There is more to life, to reality, to
this existence
than my physicalness.
And that was that was a sort of proof.
And and that might not be death. That
might not be what comes after. It might
be an extension of this. I don't know.
But it was more than my physical
reality. Whatever that is. It was
non-physical and it wasn't this. And I
thought, you know,
so many people when they go when they go
out of body, a lot of them it happens
during like a near-death experience and
they're floating, they see themselves,
same symptoms. And so I said, okay,
there's a correlation between these two.
Like there is something here between the
astral and out of body states and near
death and dying. Like there is a
correlation here.
So, I just asked myself like, well,
what's the hurry then? What am I so in
in a rush to die for? Why do I want to
know what death is like? I'm going to
get there. I promise you [laughter] I
will get there. That is, you know, the
only certainty in this physical
existence that I can that I can promise
myself is that I'll get there.
>> Um, but now I got to ask myself like,
why am I trying to get there all the
time? Like you know if this body is some
type of container vessel meat suit for
the soul that we incarnate into. If that
is the case
then giving up instant manifestation
eternal reality
the most beautiful existence of all
knowing and you can travel anywhere and
have everything. giving all that up to
be here in this transient little, you
know, moment. That has to mean
something, right?
That's the message I I got is, you know,
everybody from my perspective, it was
like, you know, the whole point is this
kind of ascension idea where it's like
I'm going to expand. I'm going to get
into this oneness state. I'm going to be
with God and everything. And the more I
started to go down that road, the more
it was turned the other way. It was more
like you're here. That's the point. It's
like this is you normally.
>> Yeah. Right.
>> But now you're here and this you need to
to to get healthy. You got to figure
stuff out. You got to change your tires.
You got to pay your taxes. You know, you
got to have relationships. You got to
talk to people.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. you have to do these things and
this is where the the spiritual
fulfillment will that you're looking for
will actually manifest and come from and
so um it was it was an interesting
turnaround
but you know you go it's the same thing
with life you go one direction you think
you're going to find something in this
direction and you realize it was already
over there.
>> Yeah.
>> You walked away from it.
>> Yeah. But you had to walk away to
realize it.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Well put. Okay. So, you've
obviously had, you know, a ton of
out-of- body experiences. Now, you've
met entities. You've interacted with
them in different ways, interacted with
different realities essentially in
different ways. Um, have you ever come
across because there's a lot of out-of-
body experiencers that say that they had
a job to do in the astral, which is like
helping people move on. Um I had Preston
Dennit here who's you know saying yeah
it's like you're just recruited once you
go out of body and to have these jobs
and to like help people. Has that ever
happened to you?
>> At first
>> really
>> at first I like this is stuff that
happened like right near the beginning
of things where it was like um you'd be
taken out of body and you'd be with like
a group of people and it's like you're
going to witness somebody die.
>> No way.
>> Yeah. And it's like I don't know this
person, but maybe they know me. Like I I
don't understand it. Um but it's almost
like you get called to help through
transitions. I've been to some pretty
weird ones. Like I I've been called by
aliens. I know it's a weird thing to
say.
>> That's the title of the video now.
That's [laughter]
>> it's a weird thing to say because
because that's the only way I could
describe it. It's like I had this one
experience where I left my body and it
was like this alien was like on the run.
That's all I could. It was like it was
being hunted by something and it was
like hiding in like a cave. It looked
like a desert and it looked like a like
a tall gray alien but it wasn't gray. It
was like salmon pink color. Like that's
what it looked like.
>> And it's like why am I being called
here? is like this being whatever it
was, it was like so scared like
something was going to happen to it. It
was going to get caught by somebody and
it's being hunted and it's like okay I'm
here. I'm with you
like explain these thing. I I don't
understand these things but this is what
started to happen at these first like
stages of of leaving the body.
>> Wow.
>> It's like you don't ask for it. It's
just like you you're just taken there.
It's it's like you don't say I'm going
to go. Oh, it's like a job that you had
to do.
>> Yeah.
>> It's so strange. I wonder what that
could be. Any ideas? Any hypothesis?
>> I I think that um I think we play many
roles just like valet the phenomenon has
many faces. I think that we play many
roles as well at different levels of
understanding. So I don't understand it.
Like I I from my perspective as a human
being, I don't understand it yet. Maybe
I'll never understand it. But maybe it's
like
maybe when I came to for somebody's
transition, maybe they didn't see me as
Jason. Maybe they saw me as an older
relative of them from, let's say,
another life or something.
>> And that's who they recognize to allow
them to make that transition. And
transition is a very important word
because that's what I feel the astral
state is. It's kind of like this
transitionary world between the
spiritual and physical. It's like the
waiting area, you know, and it's like
beings from different places
um to connect with you here in the
physical, you know, let's just
hypothetically say that there's uh
someone you know on some planet in
another universe. Well, how are they
going to reach you? They're going to
leave their body. They're going to go
into this astral form. And this is kind
of like the transitionary meeting place
between these worlds where there is no
time and space. And you could have this
interaction. And maybe when you do die,
that's kind of the process. You go to
this kind of transitionary place where
you're met with beings that you're
familiar with and they kind of get you
familiar with this trans transition
state. And then from that transition
state, you travel to other places.
>> That's an interesting way to put it as
well. I know that Robert Monroe had
something similar. Uh I think he called
it like the it was like the
intergalactic cafe or something like
that where he it was like focus 19 or
something and he would go to this place
and he would meditate essentially sit
down at this diner somewhere maybe not
unlike the diner we got here um and wait
for someone to come sit down in front of
him and have a conversation. this this
is another being from another dimension
or whatever but they were coming and
going through these different tubes or
whatever like some type of sci-fi you
know Jetson's movie but um that is an
interesting idea that this is just like
a transitionary space that we can
interact with
>> or something that we can create because
>> it's almost like a matrix or created
reality that is like a dreamscape.
Uh so think of it like this way. Let's
say that um there's a spiritual being or
just you know let's say an alien for
simplicity terms on another planet and
they want to have a meeting with you.
They want to talk to you but instead of
just sending you telepathic messages or
channeling through you, you're dreaming
and you get pulled from your dream state
into this kind of like you say like a a
boardroom.
>> Mhm.
>> And you're sitting So you're sitting at
the table and across from you is this
alien. It's like okay I'm in the matrix
now. how you've created this matrix and
they say, "Well, no, this is just the
the room that we've created in this
space so that we can communicate with
you, right?
>> And when we're done, this doesn't exist
anymore."
>> Wild.
>> Yeah.
>> Um Okay.
>> And it's all in the mind.
>> It's all in the mind. Everything is
mental.
>> It's all mental.
>> Yeah. As was it the first law of uh
hermeticism,
>> right?
Um,
okay. Let's transition.
>> Okay.
>> A nice way to segue here into your
latest book. I do want to talk about
this a little bit because I think that
this is uh rather fascinating. We've all
heard about Atlantis and, you know, its
purported locations, whether that's the
eye of the Sahara or whether that's, you
know, somewhere in the ocean or, you
know, you name it. But you've had done
some research and found that maybe maybe
this isn't exactly what Plato was
talking about and can you go into it?
I'm sure it's very complex, but if you
could if you could at least topically
sort of uh cover it.
>> Well, I'll make it very simply. Let's go
to the source which is Plato. And Plato
wrote two works. He was supposed to
write three. Uh one is called the Timus.
One is called Critius and Critius is
halfway complete. So out of three books
you have one and a half and you get the
Atlantis story from the Taeus which is
like introduced in the time and that's
the only full book that Plato wrote and
then you have let's say like a half a
book of the crit which details Atlantis.
Now, when you read the Atlantis story,
um there's a lot of I would say hermetic
and ancient
creation myth in there and unless you
know those creation myths, you won't be
able to see them. And the way that Plato
writes the story from Critius or Solon
is in a way a reflection of the
universe. It's a reflection of the
creation.
And when I say this, and I know it is
kind of complicated, but if you go to
the actual story of Atlantis, it starts
with Poseidon.
He's gifted an aotment
um of land of earth. He's the god of the
sea. On a central hill, there's an earth
family, has a daughter. He falls in love
with he falls in love with her. He comes
down. He he um puts um land and water
like a lathe, like circles of land and
water around her to protect her. And he
has children with her. So just starting
from that standpoint, this is the
beginning of the Atlantis story. Where
have we heard this story before of the
gods seeing the daughter of Ban falling
in love with them having demigod kings?
So then she has five twins, sets of
twins and the the firstborn they named
Atlas.
Now who is Atlas? Why would Plato name
this character Atlas? Well, in Greek
mythology, Atlas is the Axis Monday. He
is the um Titan who upholds the heaven.
And that's why you see the statues with
them holding the world. and they place
the temple of Poseidon right at the
center of the island. Um in the middle
there is an um orical which is a sacred
metal. It's a mythological metal which
is kind of reddish gold. A pillar
directly in the center of the island
and then Atlas rules. Now over time they
live in harmony, perfection.
They're um they navigate their they're a
naval power
and
then they go to war. They get too much
mixing with mortals. They they become
warlike and then they're going to go
outside their boundaries into the
Straits of Gibralar, which is the
Pillars of Hercules. [snorts] Now,
here's the thing. They give a date very
specifically in um the Taeus and the
Critius about um [snorts] 9,000 years or
it comes to 9,600 BC.
If if you look up in the sky at the
northern sky at that time, the north
pole is directly in between the legs of
Hercules in the sky. So the myth or the
story of Atlantis
mirrors the actual date and timing of
the stars in the heavens. So it's kind
of this as above so below story. And if
you just turn back the clock slightly to
when Atlantis would have been at its
highest highest power,
the pole star is Vega in the north sky.
And so Vega is the brightest star in the
north sky. If you go back 12,000 B.CE,
that star would have been so important
for uh travelers because you need a
north star, a stable north star to
travel the world. You could only be a
naval power if you have this star and
all the stars turn around it like as
turned as a lathe. So it's kind of like
this as above so below allegory of the
procession of
of the north star over the 25,000
26,000year cycle. So that when when
Atlantis was the power power
they had this star perfect reflection of
Atlantis
>> in the sky. As the time passed, they
moved outside their boundaries into the
pillars, which esoterically means legs
of Hercules. So now the pole stars in
between Hercules and you have this
cataclysm because there is no north star
anymore, right?
>> You lose visibility and then you go
about 6,000 years of darkness. There's
no north star for about 6,000 years
until you hit Thubin. So you have this
loss of the world, loss of cosmic
navigational understanding.
>> The great flood,
>> the great flood, it's like the deluge
because it's the dark waters of space.
It's it's all and yes, of course,
there's a reflection between the younger
drius and the the date. But there is
this kind of cosmic story. And what
makes this so intriguing is that if you
go to the Tameus, which is the actual
work of Plato,
you have the Atlantis story that pops in
just before Tameus speaks because the
Taeus is basically Tameus's time and he
talks about u the creation of the world
by the bevant demiurge. And so right
after Atlantis, he starts describing uh
the creation of the universe and he's
saying, you know, he's talking about uh
the circles of the same and the circles
of the different, which is the um the
fixed stars
>> and the wandering stars and the seven u
the six circles that are divided into
seven and then the eighth circle. And so
he's talking about the creation of the
universe describing it. And then Critius
comes in and talks about the creation of
Atlantis. And if you take the image of
Taeus talking about the creation of the
universe and you take the Atlantis story
and you actually just merge them
together, it's like they're describing
that same circular pattern
>> that Atlantis is shaped of. So I there's
so much here and that's why I had to
write a book about it. But basically
that these creation myths, the whole
story of Atlantis
can be found in other myths going back
just by it's almost like Plato took
ancient creation myths and then he
wrapped it and gave it a new name,
>> you know. So when you actually read
those quotes
um it's very interesting because you
have to know about Egypt, you have to
know about the Egyptian creation myths,
you have to know about um the Odyssey,
you have to know about um
uh 12 labors of Hercules. You have to
know about all these different myths to
understand the story of Atlantis because
all of that existed at the time he wrote
that.
That is um so it's a lot for someone
like me to fathom because you you think
to yourself like well why wouldn't you
just say so right why would you go
through the trouble of concocting such a
insane confabulated story you know to
just explain the procession of the stars
and I asked you this at contact and you
had a really good answer for this
>> um well the answer would say you have to
look at Socrates which was Plato's
teacher and Socrates was basically
murdered by the state for for basically
infecting the youth with his ideas or
teaching the wrong teaching about the
wrong gods. So you couldn't really
discuss these things openly and Plato
observed his own teacher being murdered
by hemlock and he knew that okay he's
going to open the school he's going to
be uh an initiatory teacher he's going
to create these stories uh which are
called likely stories
and by by giving this kind of fable this
myth he's actually following a very long
line of other authors in the past that
create myths of the gods but it's
actually telling another story when
initiated into this. So this is where we
get into secret societies. This is where
we get into the initiations in Egypt
where the general public
if you could understand the story and
the story is a good story and he is
great at making stories. U this story
will pass on for generation and
generation and it has exactly the way he
wanted it. But you would have to be
initiated into these other orders in
order to have the keys to unlock them
and understand it.
>> Yeah. To decipher them,
>> right?
>> Yeah. That's fascinating because it
really does for me provide a brand new
context into how brilliant these
philosophers were. You know, we use the
term philosophers, the Greek
philosophers. We we say it so
flippantly. I don't think we can
comprehend how smart these people really
were. Um, it's really difficult for us
to comprehend that. I I don't know how
he did this. It's It boggles my mind.
And the more I reread and reread, it's
like I keep finding more things and I'm
like, it just becomes obvious. It's like
once you have that key, it starts to
become so obvious. And you know, I I'm
not the person like people are
historical. They want to find the island
and then people are okay this is a
political allegory of moral you know and
I say that's fantastic
beautiful I'm not discounting either
side I'm saying let's go deeper why did
he why did the um the priest tell Solon
that um that Feton stole his char his
father's chariot and burnt the earth
causing a catastroph
um the world goes through these periodic
uh cataclysms by water and fire. Why did
he tell this to Solomon before he told
the Atlanta story? But then before he
says the Atlanta story, the priest also
says, you know, this story has a form of
a myth, but what it really means is the
declination of the stars of the heavens
over long periods of time. So he's he's
basically telling you right before he
tells you the story of Atlantis that
this is a myth. And what it really tells
you is that it's a story of the moving
heavens. He says it right before he
tells the story of Atlantis. And the
story of Feton is the destruction of the
world by fire.
The exact same theme is in the Atlantis
story, but it's with water. And that's
exactly what he said. There's periods of
destruction with fire and water. And
then now he tells the story of Atlantis,
>> you know. So people, they hear the story
of Atlantis, they want they
>> we want the national treasure. We
>> they want to find it. But I'll just say
like as well, they the uh he he says
it's right outside the pillars of
Hercules, which we know exactly that
location on Earth. Okay. So he's given
us the exact direction where it is. He's
given us the size of it. He says it's
larger than Libya and Asia combined.
Now, if you put those two places
together, you're talking about a
continent roughly the size of North
America.
>> We're talking about a big place. So, and
if that went into the ocean 11,000 years
ago, give or take, there's going to be
evidence of that. Um, you're going to
see it, but we don't. It's it's
completely not in that location unless
you know NASA and everybody's lying to
us which you know again that's a
possibility. [laughter]
>> Yeah.
>> But so everybody will will look at this
or look at the story of Atlantis and say
he they said exactly that there is an
island. This is true. It's right here.
This is the size. But look at the entire
story.
>> You know because if this is true
>> and the why I think that's important
too. Like why would why would Plato
like shroud this story uh as as a sort
of map to lead you to like a lost
civilization? That doesn't seem like
something Plato would do or these
philosophers would do. They wouldn't
send you on a treasure hunt,
>> you know? It it seems like something
Hollywood would do or like, you know,
like a national treasure movie. I would
love to see it. Um but in terms of
philosophers, those guys were imparting
knowledge
like math and science and astronomy and
that type of thing. The the thing is
it's the same thing with the Republic
where they're trying to find the ideal
society. And it's it's almost like it
doesn't matter what they choose, it
falls apart,
>> right?
>> It's the same thing with life. It's the
same thing with philosophy. It's the
same thing with these cycles. And this
is why the priest told Solon it's about
these cycles of the stars, the cycles of
the heaven over long periods of time
because there is this destruction that
will periodically happen. Every
civilization will come to its fall but
then there's this time of recalibration
and then there's this time where the
society rises again and it's like a new
world and it matches these cycles. So
this whole thing about hubris and
arrogance and in my personal opinion
this hubris and arrogance is not about
the ideal state. It's the ideal state of
consciousness
as in you know don't run around like a
chicken with your head cut off because
the world is ending. Understand that
these are natural cycles that will
happen again and again and again. And if
you understand this, you're going to be
strong and you could lead.
>> It's a it's a lot to contemplate, you
know, and we're finding out now
thousands of years later that, oh, there
are cycles and oh, we're kind of at the
end of one right now and like it feels
like it might happen again. So, it is
timely that, you know, you sort of
rediscovered uh this through a new lens.
Um has that has the work that you've put
into this has that ever been done
before? Has has anyone ever taken that
approach to it?
>> Yes. uh uh proclas which is a five fifth
century AD um he is a neoplatonist and
he looked at the Atlantis story and he
wrote a huge book I think it's about 2
to 300 pages if not more saying that um
the story of Atlantis is actually a
celestial allegory of the cycles and the
demiurge and the creation
>> you know and it's it's amazing But this
type of view maps it to the stars as
well. So it it builds off of that. So
that everything that we're told could
actually be seen in the sky and it goes
into this kind of um area that a lot of
people don't look into. It's called
astroology.
And astrotherology is is kind of like
taking a myth uh and putting um
celestial observations of cycles and
seasons into the myths and the gods.
>> H
>> and so we you carry that through but
it's valuable information into it. So
it's like you'll see let's say um the
god sheamesh for example from the
acadian myths the god sheamesh is the
sun god. And when you see the sun god
depicted in some of these um
um tablets,
he'll be holding let's say a knife and
he'll have like heat rays coming off his
shoulder because he's the son. And then
he'll he might be standing next to
Ishtar
and Ishtar like the virgin, she's
holding the barley in her hand and he's
grabbing her by the foot with the knife
and he has the heat. But what is like
you're looking at God's here, but really
it's kind of like the cycle saying it's
like the sun is now it's the hot time of
the year and he's cutting down. He's
harvesting the the wheat, you know, and
these are the stars that are in the
heavens when this you have to do this,
>> right?
>> So there's a celestial knowledge wrapped
into the stories even though we're not
aware of those keys.
>> Yeah. It's not just fairy tales.
>> Yeah.
>> There that is their way of
talking about science. That's how they
did it. They did it through story,
through fable, and through tales.
>> Exactly.
>> Very interesting. Uh Jason, I'm gonna go
start the camera back here. We got some
questions from the audience.
>> Let's do it.
>> All right.
>> We got a few questions here. Our
audience always asks the best questions
and if you want a chance to ask them as
well, you can become a member.
First question here from Ghee says uh
does a does government disclosure even
matter if the real contact happens in
the astral?
>> It it will matter to some people.
>> Okay.
>> Because there are people that are
waiting for this disclosure to happen
and to appease whatever
they need.
>> Yeah.
>> Um but again I think that the government
does need to come clean. They do need to
release something. They need to to give
something to the public because the
public knows that there's something off.
And you know, being in this community
for so long, you meet so many people,
people that claim to be whistleblowers
or insiders or contactees or abductees.
And there's definitely something going
on. I don't think we'll ever get the
answer that we actually want. we will
just get a story of something to appease
the minds of a lot of people, but a lot
of people will never be happy with those
answers. But will it matter if it's in
the astral?
Not really, because you're dealing with
a whole other beast. Yeah. Yeah. I tend
to agree. I think um
I think a lot of and this is something I
I I get a lot of push back on when I
talk about but uh I do think that to
some extent answers are inconsequential.
I think they pro only thing answers
provide is the ability to ask a new
question and I think the new question is
more valuable and so to be able to ask
new questions that's what we're really
after and to do that we have to get an
old answer out of the way. Um but I I I
don't know. I I I also I also think that
um you know let's say if the question is
are we alone, right? If that is the
question, if the answer to that is that
we're given is yes, we're alone.
I'm not happy with that answer. I'm
going to keep asking the question until
that answer becomes no. Right.
>> That answer is scarier than anything
they can give us.
>> Yeah. Exactly.
>> That's the worst answer.
>> Yes. Yeah. But if that is the answer,
it's not going to satisfy anyone. And we
will keep looking until the answer is
no. Correct. So why don't we just assume
it's no and move on?
>> Yeah.
>> Okay.
>> Well, they want the bodies. They want
the craft. And yeah, but only I I I do
believe this and again I'll probably get
push back for that, but I do think it is
only to satisfy a selfish
um need that we think will fill a void,
which it will not. You get an answer,
you're not going to retire and be like,
"Well, there we go. I can I can die
now." Of course not. You're going to
you're going to have another question,
and guess what? that question will feel
more important than the other one.
>> Yeah. It reminds me of like kind of like
the old mouthon type of nuts andbolts
stuff where it's like they're just
interested in the craft. They need to
know that technology. They want to know
what powers it because if they can get
their hands on that power system, we can
change the world for the better. And I
think it was actually Grant Cameron that
said this. I don't know where he got it
from, but he he was basically saying
that um what happens if we give the
world free energy today?
You think we're going to be better off?
No, we're just gonna take more from the
Earth faster because now we don't have
to pay energy costs and energy costs are
the only thing that's stopping us from
taking more.
>> Yeah, it's well put. Wow, I never
thought of that.
All right.
From JK Part, which ancient technology
best supports interaction with
consciousness or the body's EM field,
and why?
>> Oh, wow.
I you know at first I was just going to
say churches
>> like the building the architecture from
the masons they knew how to build in
harmony with uh very specific numbers
and creating spaces that put you into
contact and altered states of
consciousness just being in the building
itself.
>> The resonance too
>> just the resonance. So there is like an
art of architecture
that you can build the structures of
creation or the vibrations and the
sacred numbers and sacred geometry of
creation directly into the structure
that will resonate with you on a level
that you're not aware of. So I would say
that uh churches
>> wow that's a good answer.
>> They're pretty powerful. Um
>> how they enhance prayer as well and song
because remember uh again going back to
music reverberation
you create the space and as the sound
reverberates around the the walls you're
creating sacred geometry structures of
sound within it.
>> Yeah. And that is a an exact science as
well. And you know, I know a lot of
people refer to the king's tomb in the
pyramids as well is like if you the
king's chamber rather and and if you lay
in that box
>> Yeah.
>> and you start humming it'll just like
it'll almost induce an out of body
state, you know.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I I would think that's very
very powerful. And the pyramid itself,
if you look at the geometry and the
cubits and how it's built with the
chambers, you get these low frequency
oscillations going through those
chambers, uh, with the granite and the
limestone, you are creating, um, an
electrical resonance field. And the
shape of the pyramid itself,
um, is a reflection of sacred geometry.
Basically, it's the symbol of creation
itself. So, you know, that's an
extremely powerful thing, but I thought
that would be the number one answer
everybody would expect.
>> I I think so. Yeah. Because Yeah. I
mean, pyramids, triangles, and all that
stuff, but church is a good one. And uh
something I found out when I traveled to
England recently was in order to be a
city, you would have to have a
cathedral. I didn't know that. Uh so
that's why all these like townships and
they all have like the cities all have a
cathedral. Like you wouldn't be
considered a city if you didn't have
one. So, you know, I think this is a
John Mitchell book where he talks about
the sacred center and the these building
structures of of cities and towns is
that you would find the center where
it's like the most powerful place
energetically like through lay lines.
>> Oh, like a layline thing.
>> And what you would do is that you would
find that space which is like the
life-giving space. Then you would put
your build your cathedral and then you
would build the city around it. But that
would be before our modern
interpretation of what lay lines are. So
they would have to how do they measure
that in that case? They would just feel
it out.
>> I you know I Well,
there's like dowsers, people that are
sensitive.
>> Yeah. Witching rods and whatnot.
>> Yeah. And there's also physical signs.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, like uh when you're looking at
areas, it's almost like a sweetness in
the air. There's water flowing. There's
plants, abundance of life.
>> Right. I see. It's like when you when
you see an area that is just teeming
with life and then you're like, "This is
this is a good spot."
>> Interesting.
>> And then kill it, wipe it out, put it
[laughter] in.
>> Yeah, let's build something.
>> All right, we got one last one here from
uh Slug.
Believe that is his real name.
Great question, Slug. Of everything in
Forbidden Knowledge, what did you
hesitate most to include and why did it
make the cut?
[sighs]
Oh my god. First of all, Forbidden
Knowledge. That's the first book that I
wrote with Bob Mitchell.
And I didn't know at the time that
people would even read that book. Okay.
I thought and the problem with it being
the first book and you know someone's
interviewing you is there's no filters
whatsoever.
>> So in that book it's like there's
there's names of like my teachers, names
of my friends, names of my family like
it's just an the whole book is an
overshare and [snorts] the so
after people started reading it I was
like oh my god no.
So I had I had to um and then also
within the first couple of months of
that book being out, Bob Mitchell also
passed away. So we also had to deal with
okay now what do we do with this
partnership and all these things and
what ended up happening was uh we work
with the family and we took the book
away. Um and then I wrote astral
experiences which is um a little more
focused [laughter] and not oversharing.
But you have to remember also Bob
Mitchell was the guy um who was the
journalist who loved taking down
experiencers stories and alien
abduction. So he was heavily involved in
uh UFO mythology. So in forbidden
knowledge it's a mix between my personal
experiences which I didn't hold back at
all in that book. That was just nuts
experiences
and then he would uh parallel it to
other experiencers in the UFO scene. So,
it has a very heavy UFO weight to that
book, whereas the new book, it's more
just about the experiences.
>> Was there ever an experience that you
had that was just too crazy to share?
>> Yes.
>> What's one example
other than the being a giant amoeba?
>> Hybrid children.
>> Really?
>> Yeah. That hybrid children
>> that you were shown?
>> Yes.
>> Hybrid children. Hold on.
>> Yeah.
>> Really?
>> Yeah. that that stuff I I I am cautious
about sharing
>> cuz that is you know ever since I think
Debbie Jordan Deborah Jordan was like
one of the first ones you know uh the
encounters book that Bud Hopkin covered
Bud Hopkins covered um was one of the
first times I think it was talked about
this idea that they were presented with
their hybrid children and I've spoken
you know I've sat across from many
experiencer who's told me about these
same things. What was that that happened
in the astral?
>> Uh is this on like this is is this on
YouTube this part?
>> Yeah.
>> Shoot.
>> I mean we can caveat it. We can put a
big disclaimer here and say you know
this we don't know what this is but
>> Well, it's like
because you don't hear these things
happening to men.
>> I I have Yes. Um Peter Curry, he broke
down in tears with what he was shown.
Um, I also have spoken to three other
male experiencers off camera about this
exact thing and they are known
experiencers.
>> Okay. Okay. So, you know, I think we've
talked about enough crazy things. I I'll
share this
>> but just know this is an exclusive.
>> Understood.
>> Okay. So
basically
um I was taken and I was like I was in
this nursery hospital type of thing and
this this like um
this nurse walks out and it's like I I
want you to meet your child. And this is
like in my early 20s like I don't have
any children. I'm not with anybody.
>> A human nurse.
>> It's like a human nurse. And they they
have this child. They want to show it be
my child and they show it to me and it's
like it's like it's like a half
human, a half like it really looked like
a half alien baby. And
>> did it have a little bit of hair?
>> It did have a little hair. And I was so
angry. Like I I have this streak of
anger in me like with all these other
experiences. But I I was I felt so taken
advantage of. I felt so angry that this
happened that I fel I I felt this like
instant hate
like and I just like in my mind I just
like went to the child. I'm like I want
you to die. Like that's the first
thought that came to me. It's like I
hate you. I want you to die. Like this
is awful. And it's like the the child
just kind of went limp in the hands. And
then it's like I'm back, right? And I'm
like, and I wake up and I have all this
regret and I'm like, why did I do that?
Because it's it's more like in when
you're in these out of body states,
there's no like filter. It's impulse.
>> It's so impulse.
>> And that's what I really felt at that
moment, like how can you do this?
>> And um so I had a lot of guilt, but then
like a couple years later, I was taken
back and I'm back in the same place and
they go, "I want you to see your son
again." It was a son and they told me
his name and I saw him like walking. It
was just a little guy. Didn't look like
an alien at all now. He looked like a
human and came up and I gave him a big
hug and it was like this kind of
reunion. It was like very beautiful. I
said I was sorry for what I did the
first time and um that was it. It
>> was very emotional because like I have
no idea what this really is.
>> What was his name if you don't mind me
asking? Michael.
>> Wow.
>> Yeah,
[snorts]
>> that's
Yeah, that's so wild.
Thank you for sharing that, by the way.
I know it's not easy because it sounds
completely insane and
>> it is insane.
>> Yeah, absolutely. Um, but at the same
time, I think it's important and I've I
I told this to Peter Curry when he was
here as well, and he had some wild
experiences. One of which was that was
and he was actually told prior to the
meeting, he goes, "We're hesitant to
show you this child because how you
might react to what it looks like
physically." And because this child is
excelling and doing really well at
school and what they're doing, um, he's
also very highly telepathic and so he'll
pick up on anything that you think. And
so we're gonna help you sort of navigate
that interaction and like screen your
mind type deal. Um but he, you know,
that was the same sort of reaction he
had at first, like whoa, what the hell
is this? And then that how dare you
>> do this to me.
>> Um
>> yeah,
>> so it's like the same thing I just said.
>> That's what I'm saying. And I like I
said, I would share the other stories,
but um these are, you know, off off
thereord uh well not even off the
record. There's like off camerara um
uh conversations I've had that say the
exact same story that they were shown uh
from other this was from other grays. Um
and it was like football head sort of
half child half or it was all child but
half human half gray um a little tuft of
hair uh brown hair. Um, and then the
eyes were big eyes, but they weren't
completely black. Like there had big
pupils and, you know, big irises. Um,
and then a small nose, uh, little tiny
ears. Like there was a sort of in
between.
>> Yeah, that's what it was like.
>> Clearly hybrid.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> But when it was when he was older, he
couldn't tell.
>> Wow. Yeah. David Jacobs, you know,
obviously would look into this a lot and
he had a whole sort of evolution going
from he had five stages. Stage one,
hybrid, 2, three, four, five. And the
five he would call a hubid, which was
indistinguishable.
Um, but like as it would go on, you
would see, you know, the change get more
and more human. Yeah. I I've been I've
heard one thing from this that could be
interesting for the people watching is
what I heard was that this hybrid
program, you know, a lot of people look
at it very very negatively, but they
there what some of it is what I've been
told is that these hybrids, they're made
for other planets.
>> So, it's like a different environment
that you can't survive in. So they need
to kind of mix so that you could live
here. So it's almost like seeding other
worlds.
>> Yeah. Yeah. There's I mean there's no
shortage of theories.
>> That's that's a a theory that I I want
to believe.
>> I want to believe that too. There is one
um theory that is essentially that I
thought was really cool that I read
doing one of these readroughs which was
um there is a defense system around the
earth the spheres you know Patrick
Jackson talks about it but like there's
like these like this white blood cell
sort of defense system that operates uh
you know using maybe advanced AI or
something like that that prevents other
beings from coming here, that escorts
them off planet, that zaps them if they
get too close, type deal. And so to be
able to live here, you would have to
change your DNA
um over time. And so you go undetected
on this system,
>> which I thought was, you know, pretty
cool for as far as a sci-fi book goes. I
mean, it'd be a great story. So,
>> all right, I think we'll wrap it up
there. Okay,
>> Jason, thank you so much for sharing all
that. Thank you for, you know, I mean,
your your insights into the out-of- body
experience into uh Plato and
Neoplatanism and, you know, um let
people know where they can find your
books and where they can follow you.
>> The easiest place to get my books is
Amazon and just look it up. Uh my new
book about Atlantis is called The
Shining Island. Um I have a book called
Astral Experiences,
uh Gates of the Anunnaki, and Astral
Genesis. Um that's kind of like my
evolution. Also, Chiang, I have um
Egyptian posters of power book as well.
So, I have a number of books on Amazon.
You can find me on my website, the
crystal sun.com,
and that has lots of crystals. Like I
said, I work with uh Orlay 23 up in
Thunder Bay, Ontario here. So, I love
sharing that type of stuff with people.
>> Wonderful. I'll leave all those links uh
below. Thank you so much, Jason, for
joining me today.
>> Thank you. Heat. Heat. [music]