Do you think Ted Owens was an alien?
>> This is a guy who could point his finger
and lightning would strike where he
pointed. And he said to me, "This is
going to be one of the biggest UFO
sightings ever." He said, "It will be
seen by hundreds of people." And that
happened about 4 days later.
>> That is crazy.
Engo Swan uh claimed to have used remote
viewing to travel to the moon where he
believed there were aliens who forced
him off.
>> Thinking [music] aloud. Hello and
welcome. I'm Jeffrey Michionlo.
>> I'm here with uh one of my heroes who
has hosted for the last few decades one
of the most incredible shows. I recently
interviewed people who suggest that the
intention is to build a civilization
where humans and aliens will be living
together.
The ancient gods, the Anunnaki, perform
genetic experiments on on our primate
ancestors. It seems like a lot of
religions, at least at their sort of
more esoteric core, were centered around
the liberation of the soul from the
body.
>> I would only qualify that by suggesting
that while we use language that says the
soul separates from the body, it might
be almost the opposite. It might be like
going deeper into the body.
>> Have you ever had spooky things happen
to you?
>> [groaning]
>> Christmas Eve 1985,
I got a phone call from Ted Owens.
And in his big booming voice, he said,
"You have to notify the US government
not to send up the next space shuttle
because if they do, my UFOs are going to
knock it right out of the sky." A few
weeks later, the Challenger explosion
occurred.
>> We have a report from the flight
dynamics officer that the vehicle has
exploded.
>> That is wild.
>> Ignition sequence.
[music]
How is this possible?
Nothing too unusual about that. [music]
Their existence cannot longer be denied.
>> [music]
>> I'm here with uh one of my heroes,
Jeffrey Mishlov, who has hosted for the
last few decades one of the most
incredible shows. It's called New
Thinking Aloud and it explores the
frontiers of human consciousness, uh,
UFOs, parasychology,
survival of the soul after bodily death,
all sorts of incredibly important topics
at the fringe of human epistemology and
knowledge. And you do it with uh such a
childlike curiosity and uh but also
intensity. And it's and it's amazing.
And so I'm just so grateful to be here
with you.
>> I'm happy to be here. Thank you. I want
to talk to you about an interesting
essay contest you won. A lot of people
in my audience might have heard of
Robert Bigalow in the context of UFOs
because he's a you know the budget
suites billionaire who uh was supposed
to actually get UFO material from Loheed
Martin in 2008 and with Bigalow
Aerospace his company is involved in
some UFO material study it seems. Um,
and then he ends up with a with a
fascination and deep interest in
near-death experiences and survival of
the soul after after death. And he sets
up this essay contest. And you win the
essay contest.
>> Robert had gone through uh some changes
in his life. I think if I recall
correctly,
uh, his aerospace company had been shut
down by the governor of Nevada during
the COVID crisis. They in effect decided
it was a non-essential business and he
had a large staff and he had to let them
go. At the same time around then his
wife died and he decided to switch his
emphasis. He knew that the at least in
his mind and I would agree with him the
two big unsolved problems facing
humanity have to do with the nature of
UFOs and the nature of survival after
death. And he didn't feel like he could
study them both at the same time. But he
felt that it was time to switch from UFO
UAP activity to look at the question of
survival. And to begin with, he thought
he would issue this essay competition.
>> And I want to get into your submission,
which is fascinating, and it's public
for everyone to see. But before that, I
find it very interesting that certain
people like Robert Bigalow transition
from this kind of hyper capitalist nuts
and bolts. I want to figure out how the
UFO technology works. you know, maybe
he's looking at the technology or maybe
maybe, you know, again, this transfer
from Loheed Martin gets blocked by Glenn
Gaffne, the director of CIA's science
and technology division. Unclear kind of
what happens there and how much progress
he makes. But then he gets into, you
know, the soul and mysticism and
parasychology.
You've also had on Nick Cook who wrote a
whole book about nuts and bolts
anti-gravity and he went through a
similar transition where now he's
writing about parasychology. So I find
that fascinating.
>> Well, I think it goes all the way back
to at least the 1960s to the Betty and
Barney Hill case, if not earlier,
probably much earlier. There's always
been this intangible consciousness
related aspect to the UFO mysteries.
Everyone who has experienced
uh go in fact uh who was the fellow
Arnold who first reported UFOs in
>> Kenneth Arnold. Kenneth Arnold in 1947.
I believe his daughter has now written a
book talking about the mysterious
paranormal experiences he had following
his first sighting. So, it's pretty much
always been there and sort of kept under
the carpet because people weren't ready.
Society wasn't ready to deal with these
two mysteries at once. Even when I was a
graduate student at Berkeley in the
1970s and I began
doing research with this fellow Ted
Owens who claimed to be in telepathic
contact with aliens, my uh one of my
professors in parasychology dropped off
the committee because he said we just
can't combine these two fields. It's
it's hard enough to have one parasites
without having uh the social
repercussions of trying to do two at the
same time.
>> Well, you need to do two at the same
time as the great biologist Io Wilson
you know discussed consilience and uh
you know uh uh matching up disperate
domains is how you make progress in
interdomain kind of uh discipline I
think is really important. So if
something is phenomenologically true but
can't be encapsulated in some sort of
repeatable scientific process, it
doesn't make it not true or not subject
to scientific scrutiny.
>> That's how I've always felt.
>> I know. [laughter]
>> I'm preaching to the choir.
>> The truth is that we live in a world
where there are many narrow academic
disciplines and they don't often speak
to each other. interdisciplinary
scholarship is still relatively rare.
>> You said you were friends with a man
named Ted Owens who claimed to be in
contact with extraterrestrial beings.
He's known as the PK man.
>> Yeah.
>> Do you want to give just the audience a
little bit of context as to who he was?
>> Well, in 1969 he published his book
called How to Contact Space People. Uh,
I learned about it um not long after
that because I had friends who were into
UFOs and and they thought, "This is
unusual. This guy is telling us how to
actually achieve a a telepathic
communication with what he called space
intelligences.
And he demonstrated that he could do
this by um a a whole series of amazing
things like
this is a guy who could point his finger
and lightning would strike where he
pointed and many other things power
blackouts and uh controlling uh the
weather and UFO sightings. This was all
documented in in his original book along
with affidavit.
>> He was studied by Russell Tar and Hal
put off at Stanford Research Institute
who started the CIA psychic spy program.
Isn't that right?
>> Well, almost correct. He reached out to
them. They had become relatively
wellknown because of their work with Uri
Geller, the Israeli psychic who was
world famous. and uh they had published
in some scientific journals about their
work with Geller. So Owens reached out
to them and you know said why are you
wasting time with him? I'm the world's
greatest subject [laughter]
and but they wanted nothing to do with
him uh actually because they were
getting funding from the CIA and they
were already is in their minds uh too
public be with Geller. They didn't want
any flam another flamboyant psychic to
be associated with them. So in February
1976,
they had invited me to SRRI to
experience remote viewing, which I did
and and had a very successful trial at
the time. But they were all a buzz about
Ted Owens because they'd been ignoring
him, ignoring him, ignoring him. And
finally, he had shortly before my visit
sent them a message saying, "I'm going
to prove to you guys that I'm real.
California was experiencing a bad
drought at the time." And he said, "I'm
going to show you what I can do. I'm
going to end this drought, and it it's
going to happen within a couple of days.
The newspapers where you are will
publish an article saying the drought is
over." At the time, the articles were
saying no end in sight to the drought.
And furthermore, you'll know that I did
it because there will be every kind of
strange weather, snow and hail and sleet
and UFO sightings, which is one of my
trademarks. And all of that happened
within a few days. And so they said,
"Somebody's got to look into this, but
we can't." So they said, "Would you
please take our files, [laughter]
get them out of our office and follow
up?" Which I did. I worked with Owens
for 11 years from 1976
to 1987 when he died. [laughter]
>> Fascinating. Did Did you witness
firsthand any of this stuff? The ability
to summon lightning on command, control
hurricanes, control the weather? Well,
these things happened while I was
studying him, but I didn't witness them
in the sense that I wasn't present as
they occurred. They were reported in
newspapers, many, many things.
>> And he would sort of call his shot and
then the thing would happen. Is that
correct?
>> He would send out letters to me and to
other scientists. He had a handful who
were at least keeping files on him. And
of course I had all the files from put
off and tar and along the way other
researchers sent their files to me. So I
I've collected an archive and I've kept
it for decades.
>> What what are some of the most striking
specific examples of predictions that he
made?
>> Well, I'll tell you the single most
striking one. I had been ignoring him
for a while because frankly he he was a
difficult person. He wanted desperately
for scientists and the government to pay
attention to him and he was being
ignored. And
>> as a result of that, he said, "I'm
declaring war against the United States
government." And I would get newspaper
clippings of poltergeist attacks on Navy
vessels and strange things like like
that. And then uh there was one
>> and he would say that he was attributing
that to himself.
>> Oh yes. He would say, "I'm haunting this
Navy vessel."
>> Or using psychokinesis.
>> Wow.
>> Is what he claimed. Or it varied. At
different times, he said, "Oh, I'm not
using psychokinesis. I send telepathic
messages to my friends, the space
intelligences, manted like beings in in
an invisible giant UFO hovering over the
Earth. And they do it." And the manted
beings, they were in touch with light
beings that were above them, right? It
was like the mantids were somehow
intermediaries.
>> Well, he would say that they are really
energy beings, but when they take a
form, it's sort of like a a large
insect.
>> Interesting.
>> Mhm. Well, this is so fascinating
because it makes me think that some of
the quote unquote UFO disclosure stuff
going on right now is sort of a
misdirection
uh towards this like nuts andbolts
machinery thing because if there's a
person who can create a poltergeist
hysteria on a Navy ship, you have to
think that that's being systematically
done visav, you know, American
adversaries all the time and then
they're probably doing it to us as Well,
and and some of this stuff we think of
as sort of nuts and bolts is really sort
of some consciousness projection or
something.
>> Well, maybe the truth of the matter is
that mind and body or physical matter
and mental things are really all one
>> and and that uh we have been lulled into
not appreciating the the vast potential
of our own consciousness. And Owens uh
was one of the uh people who broke out
of that early in his life for various
reasons.
>> How does he say he broke out of that?
>> There are different stories. Uh he would
claim that the space intelligences were
watching him since childhood.
>> He would claim that they discovered he
had the most powerful nervous system of
anybody they had ever encountered since
Moses.
and and he claimed that the aliens he
worked with, he called the space
intelligences. He also had names for
them. He called them Tweeter and
Twitter. He said there were two of them.
And and he gave them those names because
he said when they communicated, it was
like a high-pitched squeaky sound.
And uh he said they arranged for him to
have all of these different professions
in order that he would have a mind that
was flexible enough to interact with
them telepathically.
>> Fascinating. It was like he was being
primed for communication. Yuri Geller
has a similar story of being abducted, I
think, as a as a young child and then he
gained his psychic powers that way. But
he would also claim that on one occasion
he was
driving along a highway in Texas as I
recall. And [snorts] one day he found
himself um on the road next to his car
or truck as it was surrounded by a whole
circle of tarantula spiders. And when he
got back into the car, he realized that
they had operated on his brain
and uh [snorts] accelerated whatever
native abilities he already had.
>> It's wild.
>> It's It's very wild. And I'm I don't
know how to evaluate it, but to get to
your original question, the most unusual
thing
>> I I was just explaining. I had been
ignoring him. He had predicted a major
earthquake for example as part of his
attack on the US government and nothing
happened. And at that point I you know I
just did other things. I didn't pay
attention to him until
Christmas Eve 1985.
I got a phone call from Ted Owens and in
his big booming voice he said, "Jeffrey,
this is the most important phone call
you will ever receive."
I guess he wanted my attention
[laughter]
and and he said, "It's up to you now.
You have to notify the US government not
to send up the next space shuttle
because if they do my UFOs are going to
knock it right out of the sky.
>> Really?
>> Yes. That's what he said. And I ignored
him because first of all he for the last
few years he'd been either you know
silly little poltergeist activity fires
for example aboard naval vessels and
attacks on nuclear power plants those
were also documented but the earthquake
prediction was totally off base. And
besides which, you know, I I was
I was a nobody at at the time. I I did
have my doctoral degree in
parasychology, but I was I had been
lieled. I was fighting a liel suit. The
US government wasn't going to listen to
me, and I didn't even know who to talk
to. Uh so I ignored him.
But then
a few weeks later, the Challenger
explosion occurred and I was, as you can
imagine, just shaken completely.
>> Bravo.
>> It happened just over 1 minute into
flight.
>> 1 minute 15 seconds. Velocity 2900 ft
per second. Altitude 9 nautical miles.
Downrange distance 7 nautical miles.
>> That is wild. Do do you think do you
have any evidence outside of his
statement? I mean that's that's a it
seems like an eerily accurate
prediction. Do we have any evidence that
there was some sort of interference with
the Challenger from an outside object?
>> Not to my knowledge.
>> Yeah, not to mine either. But but but
but this is a very interesting data
point. I don't know if you know this.
There's a NASA mission controller uh
whose name is Tim Taylor and he claimed
to be part of a secret space program. Uh
but he also and get like all sorts of
interesting downloads and he also was
the NASA mission controller for that
Challenger mission where Judith Resnik
ended up passing and it he took it
really hard. It was really hard on him.
>> And I just I wonder I wonder if you know
there was some sort of transmission that
was ignored elsewhere or something. I
mean who knows?
>> I have heard of of others.
>> Interesting.
>> Yeah. You've heard of others?
>> Yes. Um I I don't have all the details,
but I was contacted after uh I gave a
talk for a small foundation and was
active in the San Francisco Bay area at
the time called the Foundation for Mind
Being Research. and I talked about this
event and afterwards I heard from them
saying they knew of a another channeler
somewhere who had made the same
prediction.
>> Interesting.
>> Yeah.
>> And then there was the time where I
believe Ted Owens was so pissed off at
being rejected by the Stargate crew by
Halpov and Russell Tar that he said,
"I'm going to do some 100day UFO
apparition marathon." And this was also
to prove to you how effective he was,
right? And then
>> there's literally a newspaper clipping
from Soma of UFOs appearing in the sky.
>> Well, I set up the experiment at that
point in February 1976.
I got the files from Put Off and Park
that summer, July or August. I actually
met Owens at a conference in London. And
and what happened there was there was a
drought in London and put off in Tar
although they wanted nothing to do with
Owens had arranged for a little news
article to be published in Psychic
magazine. No longer exists but it was
active back then talking about what had
happened in PaloAlto and in California
ending a drought. So people in London
were experiencing terrible drought. Uh
it was so bad that they were bringing
water by truck to some of the outlying
communities
and again the newspapers were saying no
end in sight to the drought. So they
reached out to Owens to end that drought
and ended up inviting him to a
conference sponsored by the Paris
Science Foundation, the University of
London in the summer of 76. So I met him
there and befriended him and uh he
agreed to work with me and I at that
point asked him could he set up a a UFO
demonstration for me and he
[clears throat] immediately responded.
He said yes. I'm going to create three
UFO sightings within a 90-day period
within a 100 miles of San Francisco.
>> And he did just that.
>> Not quite.
>> Sort of. S sort of
>> well because that his prediction was
every day and this was just a
>> No, not every day.
>> It wasn't every day.
>> No, three over 90 days.
>> Okay.
>> Within a 100 miles.
>> Uhhuh.
>> And I was I was a graduate student. So I
figured I've got to try and make this as
scientific as possible. And I reached
out to colleagues in San Diego, which is
a city of comparable population, and
said, uh,
we each sent out letters to all the law
enforcement agencies within a 100 miles
to see if we could collect information
about any UFO reports. So, there was uh
first there was one a person in
conquered California walking in the
middle of the downtown streets at 4:00
a.m. had no interest in UFOs but claimed
that he had been abducted right off of
the street in downtown conquered and and
we interviewed him. It seemed legitimate
enough. He wasn't looking for publicity.
He filed a police report, etc.
And so I was on the phone once again
with Owens talking about, you know, what
was going on. We were in regular
communication
and he said to me, Jeffrey, I can feel
it coming. He said, "This is going to be
one of the biggest UFO sightings ever."
He said, "It will be seen by hundreds of
people. it will be photographed and the
photograph will be published on the
front page of one of your local
newspapers.
And that happened about 4 days later.
And and that was over uh Soma State
College as it was then known in Ronert
Park, California, about 50 miles north
of San Francisco. The art department was
holding a special artistic event with a
pilot named Stephen Pleski who had a
little airplane with smoke trailing out
the back making designs in the sky. So
that was his art form. And so the whole
art department, about a hundred people,
were out there with their cameras and
videotape in December 1976
and a UFO appeared right over the campus
uh about 3,000 ft above the campus. The
and it was seen by the pilot and from
the ground. It was photographed. The
photograph was published on the front
page of the Berkeley Gazette right in
the San Francisco Bay area. And it was
videotaped. The videotape was broadcast
on the Channel 9 Evening News.
>> That's wild. [laughter]
It's pretty crazy. And there are people
on record who witnessed him seeming to
summon lightning as well, right?
>> Correct. Yes.
>> Who are those people?
>> There was an attorney in Philadelphia.
This is back in the 1960s.
It was described in Owen's book. There
was an affidavit from the attorney,
Sydney Margules,
uh saying that um he was taking a a
break from work. I guess they go into
the stairwell of this high-rise building
where Owens was working as a typist for
the law office. And Owens was bragging.
He said, "I can make lightning strike."
And the attorney uh said, "Oh, I don't
believe that." Owen said, "You you tell
me where you would like to see
lightning." And at the time it was a
cloudy day. There was light rain, but
there was no lightning.
And the attorney said, "Well, over
there, the Camden Bridge leading from
Philadelphia
intoward New Jersey." And uh Owens
pointed his finger at the bridge.
according to the affidavit.
>> Before we dive into this wild episode, I
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back to today's episode.
Owens pointed his finger at the bridge
and according to the affidavit,
lightning struck within a few moments,
not hitting the bridge, but in that
general vicinity.
And uh I interviewed Sydney Margules
back in the 70s when I started my work
with Owens. I interviewed him again 20
years later uh when I published the book
The PK Man. And um he remembered the
incident vividly both times. He said it
was one of the most vivid memories that
he's ever had in his life. And he
vouched for everything in the affidavit.
>> And it's so fascinating that the the
histrionic personality is impossible to
decouple with the powers. You know, I
think you see that a lot. You see that
with people like Yuri Geller, too.
>> So the CIA took me to Stanford Research
Institute. drawings were done miles away
and I had to receive those drawings
telepathically. One drawing was done
while I was in Palo Alto and a CIA agent
in Langley, Virginia and I knew exactly
what he was holding in his hand.
>> You're like really this guy like he was
like endowed with all of these gifts.
And then I think if you look a little
more deeply, you speak to people at, you
know, the pair lab at Princeton and
other places that studied him.
>> I think there there often is a kernel of
some magical thing that's going on
beyond, I guess, in Yuri's case, he was
a stage magician as well, and there
probably things he faked. So, it's
always very confusing, you know, but
it's uh but it's fascinating
nonetheless. And it feels like Ted
Owens's legacy is being vindicated by
all this modern UFO disclosure stuff
that really is centered around the the
human being and an individual's ability
to attract these paranormal experiences.
Um if you look at the testimony of Jake
Barber or even look at the people under
Bigalow, you know, studying, you know,
stuff at Skinwalker Ranch, these things
seem to sort of follow them home. You
talk about the hitchhiker effect and I
shared that most of my experience has
been positive but I haven't shared that
stuff has followed me home and that my
family sees it. We have stuff show up
over our house
>> and it's more about the people. It's
almost like disclosure is like uh
disclosing ourselves to ourselves, you
know, like that's more somehow
significant than this sort of
materialist reductionist nuts and bolts,
you know, there's a craft and it's in a
hanger somewhere narrative.
>> Well, they could both be true. I think
the idea of of the kind of wild
personality that is gifted in this way
goes back to the prophet Elijah in in
the Bible who did something similar
calling down lightning. He had a battle
of the against the priests of Bal to see
whether our god or their god would uh
light this sacrificial fire.
>> Yeah, it's so it's so interesting. Some
people just seem to be endowed with some
of these things and then it feels like
sort of weakly entangled with reality or
hard to repeat in this perfect way. And
and and what do you attribute that to?
Like it feels like whatever was going on
in the Old Testament times,
those prophets seem to be able to will
these things and harness them uh in a
more sort of onetoone clear way.
>> Yeah. There's this uh idea I learned
when I was uh young and taking religious
education that these things no longer
happen. They belong in biblical times,
but God has decided that we don't need
them anymore. Uh I think that's just
putting on the blinders. These things
are still going on. And Owens
desperately wanted to work with
scientists. He I have in in the files
over a hundred demonstrations
of this type that that he performed, but
they're not mechanical 100%. They don't
work that way. They're uh I suppose you
could say like quantum physics. They
have a statistical underpinning.
>> Yes. Well, if you were an establishment
power structure, you might be threatened
by people like that. [laughter]
>> Um, because they can attract all sorts
of attention and I'm sure, you know,
cults form around people like that. Have
you heard of the prophet Yahweh?
>> The prophet Yahweh was a fellow who
lived in Las Vegas back in the day when
I lived there, as a matter of fact, and
he also claimed he could summon UFOs.
and a a local TV crew took him up on his
challenge. They went to a a local park
in in Las Vegas and he said, you know,
keep your eyes in the sky. It's going to
happen. And all of a sudden, something
strange appeared in the sky and they
videotaped it and and reported it on the
evening news.
>> This guy says the Old Testament written
in Hebrew taught him how to summon UFOs.
I pray oh Yahweh that you send a
sighting so that they know that I am not
mentally ill.
>> I see something straight up.
>> Oh brother, look at there it is.
>> Let's take a closer look here. It's an
orange sphere that appeared out of
nowhere. Yeah, that is a wild video
because you see the reporter going in
all smug like I'm going to dismiss this
guy and then he comes out and he's like
ah looks like something showed up and
you see the kind of onlogical shock and
integration process in real time with
this reporter. Well, they've
subsequently, I think people have looked
at it and said he had a a a colleague,
an associate who released a balloon. Um,
which is, you know, there's no evidence
that that actually happened, but it's an
alternative hypothesis.
>> Yeah, there always al alternative
hypotheses and then those alternative
hypotheses are often morphing constantly
and weaker than just the thing happened.
And you know it's funny I think of like
um AAM's razor which comes from William
of Aam in the 13th century you know that
originally in its original connotation
meant you know the least amount of
entities was responsible for a thing
happening and so at the time it would
have been God in many cases it was sort
of a way to justify miracles and now
AA's razor is just because we're living
in this age of disenchantment this sort
of materialist reductionist soup that
we're all swimming in it now is like
this heristic that rationalists use to
explain anything magical away.
>> Yeah.
>> And I find that to be such an
interesting transition that show it
shows that the same
heristic is used in diametrically
opposed way because undergirling that
heristic is just this pre-leveraging of
society to like believe in magic and not
believe in magic. And so there's this
sort of like fundamental mythology that
you know underpins what we believe at
any given moment. And if you're an
enlightenment rationalist skeptic in the
modern day, you can say you're immune to
that. But you're clearly not. You're
pre-leveraged by the rationalist thing.
Well, I suspect that there there's a
deeper evolutionary uh struggle going on
between you could say predator and prey
that you know the prey are always
finding different ways to elude the
predator and the predator is always
finding different ways to overcome those
mechanisms. So obviously
people know that psychic abilities are
could be an incredible weapon in the
hands of a predator. So one of the
defense mechanisms against that would be
to establish a cultural norm that says
all of this is impossible. M.
>> So, Ingo Swan, for example, a great
psychic, one of the godfathers of remote
viewing, has suggested that humans are
capable of vastly greater psychic
functioning than than we normally
exercise, but it's sort of been
conditioned out of us.
>> I think it has. And you read the kind of
19th century gentleman journeyer
anthropologists, you know, the the the
ones before it became this sort of
solidified field. people like um you
know JG Frasier for example, you read
the golden bow and it's like all these
tribes that were formerly uncontacted
had forms of homeopathic and sympathetic
magic where it was you know either the
the use of like sort of the likeness of
a of a person. So it would be like a
voodoo doll or it would be like hair,
teeth and nails in the form of
sympathetic magic. And in these sort of
closed circles, belief would become
reality. And it was incredibly powerful.
And then I think if you end up in this
more kind of atomized, desperate
society, you know, that gets that gets
lost. And especially if the pervading
mythology is just, you know, scientific
skepticism.
I [snorts] have heard, I don't have any
firsthand information, but that the
so-called legacy program working with
what they called psionic assets to lure
UFOs has been reaching out to people
from native cultures around the world,
especially young children who have never
been taught that this is impossible. It
is basically these people who are
psionic assets who have been screened
from third world countries that they use
them.
>> Yeah, I've heard that as well. And I've
heard there are uh people sometimes
mysteriously missing from those native
cultures. Um I know somebody who studies
this in census data. It's sort of a dark
area that, you know, freaks me out to be
totally honest. But they definitely are
systematically looking for um, you know,
often children who have nonverbal,
autistic, you know, uh, predispositions,
but just abilities to uh, perform
telepathy, telekinesis, basically like
kind of 11 and Stranger Things, you
know, but like that's real. And I find
actually a very similar kind of uh
phenomena with 11 and Stranger Things
and Ted Owens bringing it back. Um she
requires getting angry for her powers.
So when she is sort of backed into a
corner, it's it requires a lot of her,
but she gets all, you know, kind of goes
into like Super Saiyan mode. She gets
like really kind of amped up
>> and then something paranormal happens
around her. And that seems to be true of
Ted Owens as well from from your book,
The PK Man. Another example would be Ted
Cerios, the famous thoughtgrapher who
was a Chicago bellhop studied by Juel
Eisenbud, the psychiatrist who produced
these images on Polaroid film. I think
very authentic from my point of view,
although the the skeptics have attacked
it viciously and unfairly, but he would
get drunk uh basically in order to
perform this act of psychokinesis. And
Owens liked to do something very
similar. He would uh occasionally sit in
his living room smoking cigars and
drinking whiskey and he'd have two or
three TV sets going with football games
and he would try and influence the
outcome of the football games from a a
state of intoxication.
[laughter] It's so wild. Yeah. If if
only people knew just how real I think
this all is. And it's, you know, you
have JB Ryan who actually worked with
Ted Owens for a long time. He was the
founder of the first real official kind
of parasychology institute, the Ryan
Institute at an elite university at
Duke, uh, 1931, I believe. And so, yeah,
everybody that studies these things at
Duke, at Stanford Research Institute, at
Pere, the Princeton, you know,
engineering and anomalous research lab
under Bob John who was the dean of their
engineering school. They're all these
very serious people. You yourself are
the first person to kind of officially
study it at Berkeley. Parasychology.
>> I think I'm the only person in the world
ever to have achieved an accredited
doctoral diploma that says parasychology
right on the diploma. That that's my
unique distinction. But there are
hundreds of people who have done
doctoral research on parasychological
topics. It's just that their degrees
didn't say parasychology.
>> And the larger point is that people like
yourself who seem lucid, rational, very
smart, all you know, spend decades of
their lives looking at this stuff.
Often, you know, you can't ex really
argue with the experimental protocol.
It's like a random event generator tied
to something like radioactive isotope
decay
>> or you know some quantum tunneling
effect or a double slit experiment with
you know 50% slit A 50% slit B and you
get really statistically significant
effects when an observer is present who
wants the output to skew towards you
know slit A or slip B and uh you can't
really explain that away you can always
say things like oh it's P hacking and
file drawer and you survivorship bias,
whatever. But all of these serious
people go in often skeptical to into the
study of this stuff and they come out
and they say, "I think there's something
statistically significant here."
>> There's no question that there is
something statistically significant. The
the the real question is what [laughter]
is it? For example, mind over matter or
is it precognition? that is still a hot
debate within the parasychology
community.
>> We're always going to attempt to, you
know, engage in these physicalist
frameworks of these things like, oh, if
we just figure out that orchestrated
objective reduction works and Penrose
was right, then it's, you know, the mind
is a quantum mechanical system and then
we're rendering reality and then we can
affect the ones and zero. I I have a
feeling it's not just like one more step
like that and we've got it solved. I
think it's probably way more
complicated. It involves probably a
paradigm um that turns time on its head.
>> And so, you know, do we have math that
lines up with that currently? Like maybe
quantum mechanics points to that, but
Schroinger's equation would be an
effective equation that's couched within
that just like Newton is couched within
Einstein. So, I think we need a a
fundamental paradigm shift and we are in
the stone age on all this stuff when it
comes to these sorts of conversations.
Well, and there may be certain logical
limits like the great logician who
worked with Einstein who showed the
limits of logic. No system is ever
capable of explaining itself.
>> Oh. Oh, Kurt Girdle.
>> Girdle. Yes, of course. Girdle
>> Girdle's uh logical
>> incompleteness theorem.
>> Incompleteness theorem uh I think
applies here. For since we're talking
about consciousness, is consciousness
itself capable of explaining itself?
>> Yeah, it's the eye seeing the eye. It's
a fundamental problem. The point is is
that I think while academia is caught up
in what's the next theory of everything,
how can we explain this, turn it into
math and make it perfectly repeatable,
>> I think aerospace and the government has
been systematically exploiting it for
the last 50 years. And so from Stargate
and onwards, maybe arguably even
earlier, you know, they've been
systematically using remote viewing
methods, you know, you knew Andre
Puharic.
>> Yes.
>> And you know, he was sort of the father
of MK Ultra. And you know, they were
summoning this council of nine
extraterrestrial beings, but he was a
serious kind of neuroscientist at
Northwestern before that. And so now you
end up with today you have this UFO
legacy program which is really just
trying to gather up the most
parasycchologically powerful people in
the US. Like that's roughly what they're
trying to do from your
>> I don't know.
>> Yeah. Okay.
>> I I I don't have any privileged access
to what the legacy program is. Well,
have you heard of these like like it
seems like the gifted and talented
education system is like acting like a
or has acted like a funnel for this sort
of thing in the past where they find
>> talented students, they drink this pink
drink, they'll wear these headphones,
hear these tones and try to sometimes
affect certain materials with their
mind, that sort of thing. I I have heard
that, but I I have to admit uh until I
get more evidence, I keep an open mind
and uh because there's a history of
people fabricating stories. So, I'm I
would like more solid evidence as to
what the legacy program actually has
done. I want to close the loop on um
human personality and its survival of
bodily death which is actually the title
of a great um uh book by Friedrich
Meyers who was one of the original
parasychologists and I think he wrote
that in the 1870s and and so you wrote
this amazing essay as a submission to uh
Robert Bigalow and and and and what is
the exact thesis? Well, Bigalow asked
for an essay on the strongest evidence
that human consciousness will survive
permanent bodily death. And my essay uh
basically said it's not a single line of
evidence. The strongest evidence is that
from nine different directions we have
evidence for this. everything from
mediumship to people who work with
what's called EVP or ITC.
ITC is instrumental transcommunication.
EVP is electronic voice phenomena. In
other words, people claim that they're
communicating with their deceased
friends and relatives using radios and
computers and television sets.
>> That's fascinating. I know about
mediums. I didn't know people are using
electronics to communicate with
>> there are probably tens of thousands of
hobbyists working in that area and and
it's very common amongst ghost hunter
shows all over uh TV these days. They
have a different devices called the
spirit box which goes through randomly
selected radio channels and people
sometimes say they're getting messages
that way. Uh, I've heard of some
striking examples that that occur and
even instances where images will appear
on a TV set and will be photographed and
the TV set wasn't plugged in.
>> I was just with a friend who tragically
lost his sister
>> and he was saying that he saw a medium
and the medium immediately started kind
of ragging on him the way that his
sister did. So the medium was like,
"What are you wearing? That's so
ridiculous." Or something. And
immediately he just knew. And then from
there it was like all of these unique
details about things that only she would
know like like tens if not 100 plus of
these details.
>> Yeah.
>> And if you were to, you know, use the
scientific method against that the p
values of figuring those sorts of things
out that you know what are the odds
somebody could do that through cold
reading or you know you can't access
this information online. It's not
documented. in his case, you know, he
gave me some of the examples, but I want
to anonymize this somewhat.
>> And so, you hear countless stories about
this sort of thing, but it's all just
disregarded.
>> Well, even in the parasychology
community, it's very controversial.
There the alternative hypothesis is that
well, the medium was psychic. It was
ESP. It doesn't mean that uh the
deceased person is actually alive in a
spirit world. But originally
parasychology really did look into this
this question and it's actually the
exception to rule to the rule to find a
culture that believes that you know uh
the human soul or personality doesn't
survive the body as you point out so
eloquently in your essay
>> and the final thing I would say is even
if you look at physics itself E= MC² so
you have energy and matter conversion so
where does the matter go it just get you
know just goes into the ground and then
but then there's there's a lot more
going on than right now in a in an alive
human than just matter. So where's the
energy go? You know, like there seems
like, you know, if we have conservation
of energy, it seems like there's an
energy loss going on in death or there's
not and there's stuff going on around us
and we just can't see it.
>> There's also conservation of
information. And to take things a step
further, Einstein's
theory of relativity would tell us, and
it's been confirmed experimentally, that
if you're a photon traveling at the
speed of light, you can go from one end
of the universe to the other end and
takes no time at all. So, space and time
disappear.
>> Speaking of space and time disappearing,
you have an incredibly fascinating
interview. You have so many, but with
Michael Talbett.
>> Yes. who uh wrote the holographic
universe, tragically died at a very
young age.
>> Um but he was really trying to reconcile
kind of hardcore physics with this idea
that the universe was sort of this
holographic emanation of your mind.
>> Prim was studying memory and found that
there's evidence that the brain operates
holographically and B was studying uh
subatomic physics and found that on the
subatomic level the fabric of reality
seems to possess properties that are
reminiscent of a hologram. Mhm.
>> So if you put those two ideas together
that our brain seems to be holographic
and the universe is holographic, it
suggests that maybe it's compelling
evidence that that the universe may be a
kind of hologram. Not that it's
literally a hologram, but that it's a
good metaphor or way of understanding
the universe.
>> He he was brilliant and and he was a
good friend. I visited him at the
hospital before his death. And the irony
of Michael Talbot's death is is that he
had written a novel about a vampire
novel in which he claimed that
vampireism was a rare form of leukemia
and then he contracted a rare form of
leukemia that killed him.
>> Whoa, that is crazy. Jesus. Oh man, that
is so weird. And that's like a horrible
synchronicity, but it feel that feels do
you think that was like coded somehow?
You know, some of these guys that get to
the brink of human epistemology
sometimes feel like they're in danger or
weird things happen to them. There's I
don't know if you're familiar with
Jacobo Grinberg.
>> Yes. So this guy is studying this idea
that the humans exist in this sort of
lattice matrix of consciousness
>> and he sort of says he figured it out
and you know he goes missing and I think
the last note he writes is about how he
figured it out or whatever and and then
he's never sort of found again.
>> He was never found again. Uh we uh have
a uh a program about that on the new
thinking aloud channel uh with Alex
Gomez Marin who studied that case.
Grinberg was a friend of puharic in
incidentally.
Uh another example of this sort of thing
would be Elizabeth Tar the the daughter
of Russell Tar who was a psychiatrist
and doing brilliant medical research on
psychic healers. She was looking at
geoblastto
which are brain tumors, very deadly
brain tumors. And she was working with
healers to heal the the geoblastto tumor
when she contracted one herself and died
in in her early 40s.
>> Jesus, that's horrible. Do you suspect
there's now been this sort of missing
scientists narrative? And I I think I am
in a kind of a middle ground spot on the
topic where can I say with confidence
there's been a statistical speed up of
scientific suppression? No. But can I
say that in isolation a lot of these
cases people are talking about Nuno
Lorero who basically ran MIT's plasma
fusion lab. Um, and you know, Carl
Gilmare at Caltech, you know, uh, um,
Neil McCasslin who ran the, you know,
who's on the special access program
oversight committee and ran the Air
Force Research Laboratory at at Wright
Patterson and was cleared to more things
than the president. In isolation, I can
say that all of those cases are
extremely significant. And then I I
would say that there's been a history of
scientific suppression. So I don't I
don't know if this represents a
statistical speed up, but do you think
that any of those cases, Talbett, Tar,
do you think there was any sort of foul
play? Grinberg,
>> I I don't know.
>> Yeah, maybe it's I don't know. Maybe
it's maladaptive to think about those
sorts of things. You got to kind of
ignore it. Keep the blinders on. Have
you ever had spooky things happen to you
given that you're kind of swimming in
this stuff? I mean, you must have to uh
go into these things with a real pure
heart. because if you don't I feel like
if you go into these sorts of topics
with any sort of mal inent uh you know
it can go sort of badly.
>> I I think you're right and maybe I've
just gotten lucky. Um
>> I doubt it's luck.
>> I think I've been protected
uh from things, but I I can give you one
example uh that was a little scary. Not
much really. I think for the most part
uh whatever I've experienced has been
positive. But there was an occasion
after Owens had produced this amazing
UFO sighting published on the front page
of a local newspaper as he had
predicted.
I was on the phone with him again and
you may remember he said he would
produce three sightings and he was
bragging about how good he was and I
said, "Well, you've only produced two so
far." And he slammed the phone down.
He got angry and within minutes
I could feel this sensation in my throat
like um when you get a kind of scratchy
feeling in your throat and it's just
enough to let you know you're about to
get a a real sore throat and um that's
how it felt like I'm about to get really
sick from this. And then 45 minutes
later, he called me back and he said,
"Jeffrey, I will never do that to you
again." And it lifted.
Oh, that's freaky. So, he had the
ability to just remote influence people
on command.
>> Unfortunately, there were lives lost
there and uh because he could be
vindictive.
>> Whoa. So, you think he took people out?
Well, there were people who uh in his
mind doublecrossed him, had promised him
certain things and didn't deliver on
their promises. And he was not always a
nice person. He tried, for example, to
get owners of various major league
athletic teams to give him money in
order to protect the team. And uh if
they backed out on their promise um at
least in one of those cases there was a
suicide.
>> Wow.
>> And in other cases
uh there was an example where a a sports
writer I think of the Virginia Pilot
newspaper invited Owens to attend a
football game with him. Um, I may have
the newspaper incorrect, I think, but
because it was the Philadelphia Eagles
they were watching, so it's probably a a
different newspaper. And uh, in the
middle of the game, Owens said, "I'm
going to take out this player, told the
reporter." The reporter later wrote
about it and within moments that player
who was sitting on the bench at the time
who was a fullback got up and ran into
the field
unexpectedly and was kicked out of the
game.
>> No way.
>> Yeah.
>> So taken out in the sense that he was
disqualified from the game because he
broke the rules and just came off the
bench ran.
>> It was a totally irrational act on his
part.
>> Whoa. But in other cases, you're saying
Ted Owens literally might have killed
people.
>> There were airplane crashes. There were
um there were a number of unpleasant
incidents.
>> You must be protected. You dealt with
this guy for a decade plus. That's
insane.
>> I had the attitude.
You see, I started out working in
criminology.
>> Uhhuh.
>> My when I was a young man, I was a
graduate student in criminology. I was
doing field work at San Quentin prison
doing group therapy with murderers and
rapists. And I cultivated an attitude
early in life to treat everybody with
respect no matter what. Even a murderer,
even a rapist. And I treated Owens that
way too. So he had no reason to ever
treat me badly. And uh I think that
attitude has has served me well in life
and I I still believe it.
>> You were almost primed to be able to be
to deal with him. You were like the only
one who could deal with him or
something.
>> Well, there were others. There were a
few others. I remember back in 19
must have been 7778
uh I convened a meeting of scientists to
because I really wanted while I was
still a graduate student to launch a
serious research program into this man
and we actually coraled JL and Heinik to
show up and his attitude was I wouldn't
go near Ted Owens with a 10-ft bowl.
[laughter] I'm with Heinick on that one.
Uh that's wild. That's wild that you
were able to get that close over such a
long period of time and you know you had
a 45se secondond scratchy throat. That
that that's what that's that's all you
got. Um it's fascinating because it's
interesting also to hear the accounts of
people at the you know Princeton
engineering and anomalous research lab
and SRRI where at times it almost feels
like people studying parasychology
for them it's almost like a a religious
conversion experience and their ability
to affect the statistical distribution
you know the zcore on the random event
generator is very correlated ated with
their kind of heart centeredness or like
kind of internal alignment. So I think
about that with respect to Ted Owens and
I'm like this guy seems like this angry
vindictive like sort of you know very
limbic guy but then he has these like
higher powers and then I think about the
people who go through this
parasychological conversion process and
they become these you know just like
almost like modern saints or something
and those two things feel very
different. They are different and
Puharic wrote about that in a book
called beyond telepathy in in which he
developed a theory that for receptive
forms of ESP it's good to be relaxed and
as you say heart centered
uh he would call it choneric in in his
book um meaning the acetylcholine
uh hormones are active in the body so
you get relaxed
Then he said however for psychokinesis
for an active form of telepathy or PK as
as we call it uh that requires an
adinuric state a lot of adrenaline you
get aroused uh if you're sending a a
message for example uh a very common
experience reported in the 19th century
was called the crisis apparition where
somebody is in an accident or or near
death and other people have an
apparition, they appear and learn about
it that way. Well, the one person in the
crisis is in an adinuric state and the
other person receiving the information
would be in the choneric state.
>> So somehow like this self disillusion or
heart-c centeredness uh makes you more
receptive to messages. But to send the
messages, which it really seems like
Tedto and specialized in,
>> that requires maybe more aggression or
anger or more adrenaline.
[clears throat]
>> It would seem to be the case. I don't
think it's a hard and fast rule, but it
it seems that there's a tendency in
those directions.
>> Tell me about Puharic because uh I find
him to be such a fascinating figure. You
know, I have a friend named Greg Malazzi
who just made an amazing uh documentary
on on him uh called uh The Mind
Traveler.
>> I'm Andrea Puharic. I'm a physician by
training, research scientist by choice,
and I've spent the last 25 years
investigating people with unusual
powers.
>> Puharic was this guy who he was
earnestly kind of interested in
consciousness. He was at Northwestern
and he starts studying this stuff and he
kind of gets folded in in a way that I I
don't think he was quite ever fully
comfortable with throughout his life uh
to kind of intelligence circles and CIA
>> and um and then he he he has in
Austining New York uh you know he has
the space kids and he recruits all these
people. brings in Yuri Geller from
Israel and they're they're talking to
this council of nine extraterrestrial
beings and there's this open question of
is he taking the beings existence at
face value? Is there like a galactic
federation that he's receiving
transmissions from? So there's this like
CIA scientist communicating
systematically with aliens or is it this
proto parasychological thing and he kind
of knows that the whole time? Do you
have a take on that? And
>> oh, I could talk for a long time.
>> Please. [laughter]
Yeah, go for it. Well, we're here for
>> Let me say at the outset, Mind Traveler,
the documentary. I know it's been years
in in the making. 11 years.
>> I know Greg and I'm currently working
with a fellow named Lance Mongia who
worked closely with Greg. And Lance is
currently working with me to build up a
documentary on Ted Owens.
>> Wow.
>> So, there's a connection there.
>> That's exciting. Yeah.
168 different demonstrations he
performed over a period of 20 years.
Roughly twothirds of them worked out the
way he said they would. Puharic uh when
I first met him was about 1972
and at Berkeley I sponsored a conference
at in Zelerbach auditorium. 1,800 people
showed up uh and Puharic was one of the
speakers and it was at that conference
that he made the very first public
announcement about his work with Uri
Geller and Puharic uh has always been uh
wonderful to me. He he was an
inspiration. I saw him as a role model
and he encouraged me uh along the way.
Uh so I owe a debt of gratitude to him.
I think he was a fine researcher uh a
very brilliant man. I only learned later
on about all of his associations with MK
Ultra.
But he had already published uh some of
his work with with psychedelic
mushrooms.
>> Yeah. Oh yeah. Sacred mushroom.
>> The sacred mushroom. So he was known for
that and I knew him to be a magical
person because I had heard of before I
even met Puharic people who read his
book uh the sacred mushroom and within
uh days of reading his book they find
these mushrooms growing in their
backyard.
>> That's wild.
>> Yeah. And I think he would attract all
sorts of UFO flyovers at Austining. And
uh he had a machine that he would hook
up these sort of space kids to as well.
So it was this sort of similar to your
sort of, you know, um mediumship, you
know, electronics. It was these
electronics to to to speak with who he
thought maybe was extraterrestrial
intelligences. It was this council of
nine, but there were also I guess he
brought up uh the the nine Egyptian
deities in this context.
>> So I guess my central question on him is
do you think he believed that he was in
communication with extraterrestrials or
do you think he kind of knew all along
that you can't take any of this stuff at
face value and it was just he was really
looking into parasychology? There's so
many touch points
>> I know
>> with Puharic and and UFOs, but I think
it's fair to say that he was a very
sophisticated man. And I'm
>> sure he understood a that UFOs are real,
that they were involved, for example, in
the Erie Geller's history and and
development. Puharic himself witnessed
UFOs in conjunction with Ariel as well
as synchronicities
>> and
I you know today we talk about the
simulation hypothesis
uh which is a very sophisticated way of
looking at it and and in Puharic's day
that hypothesis didn't exist
>> as far as I know but I think Puharic
implicitly understood that reality is
not what it seems to be and that there's
a real connection between the ancient
Egyptian deities and people who are
channeling information as he was working
with different channels channelers and
uh UFO appearances. I think he
understood it was all interconnected and
that he himself was he believed himself
to be in direct communication with these
entities whatever they were. He was so
fascinating and he was I think uh just a
focal point for so much good and then
incidentally probably a lot of bad too
but not necessarily due to his own
intention but due to being sort of
folded up into the wrong circles which
can can often be the case I think in
these topics you know I think uh it
attracts a lot of left-hand path types
who you know want to sort of
instrumentally use this stuff for you
know MK Ultra or you know their own
power or you know instrumental
technological use or whatever.
>> I think first and foremost he was a
scientist and and he wanted to
understand these things and uh he had a
broader vision than most anybody else in
the scientific world at that time.
>> You've spoken to so many interesting
fascinating people. I don't even know
where to start, but Terrence McKenna,
uh, you have an amazing interview with
him online, and it almost feels like
when you ask him questions, he's like,
uh, tethered to some metaphysical pool
of other worldly truth or something.
He's so precise in his language and, um,
so semantically accurate,
>> but then also extremely trippy. One
possible view of the flying saucer is
that it is a kind of projection from the
consciousness of the planet that it is
Gaia, that it is in fact a kind of
alchemical object haunting human
historical time with a symbol of
totality.
[laughter]
>> He he was wonderful and and one of the
most articulate people I'd ever met.
Yeah, there's a great clip of him with
John Mack
>> and he's interviewing John Mack and he's
kind of um kind of uh goating John Mack
in like a he's kind of being a little
like a cheeky and in his interview
questions and he's kind of leading John
Mack in you know in a kind of
interesting direction which almost feels
like his personality type like he's this
uh almost machine elf but in the real
world or something. uh and uh and he's
talking about to John Mack about like
you know the western you know
materialist reductionist paradigm and
John Mack you can tell he's getting kind
of ideologically heated about how he
wants that paradigm to you know go away
and and and that it's going to get and
it's going to get hit really hard by you
know this the the paradigm that's
existed kind of in in cultures across
millennia uh you know very hard
>> if you want to shatter the western
mental structures the the western mind
so to speak which is now permeating the
whole earth in its materialist dualistic
philosophy. The way you do it is you
take something that's supposed to be in
the spirit world because even in the
west we can make allowance for the
spirit world and we can study it through
mythology, through religion, through
imagination, through poetry. But the one
unforgivable sin to the western mind is
when something that should be in the
spirit world transgresses and shows up
in the physical world.
>> You've interviewed both of those guys.
Yeah,
>> it it almost felt like McKenna believed
that mushrooms
would sort of symbiotically they
represented these sort of forms of
intelligence.
>> Yeah.
>> And they would symbiotically attach
themselves to humans and direct their
thoughts and actions in, you know,
interesting ways.
>> Well, he had this theory that
consciousness itself developed when our
primate ancestors discovered these
mushrooms. Yeah, exactly.
>> So, we he he had some wonderful
theories. Now, I've done some an
interview and I've gotten to know his
brother, Dennis,
>> and uh Dennis's attitude is is a little
different. Dennis uh would tell you that
Terrence is is not the the saintly
person that is sometimes viewed as, you
know, the psychedelic saint of of some
kind. He was certainly a pioneer and a
forerunner, but the two of them got into
a number of misadventures with
psychedelics. And Dennis would say that,
you know, a lot of Terren's ideas like
his uh way of trying to connect the
Eching with a a system of 64 different
triagrams of of of the each or hexogs
of the Echain with the genetic code and
and so on was was just speculative and
wrong.
>> Yeah, fair enough. I mean clearly his
life was very sort of free associative
or something and you know I know they
had multi-weekl long mushroom trips in
the Amazon where they would sort of
download and channel things. Theories
like the stone ape theory are so
fascinating and you know I don't know
how much corroboration there is for that
but it's it's an interesting question to
why uh human brain size doubled from
homohabilists to homo sapiens from 2
million years ago to you know 3 to
400,000 years ago. You know, if if human
hunter gatherers are looking for scat
and you know, psilocybin cubensus is
growing on that, then maybe that in
maybe that begets these sort of quicker
epigenetic changes in neurogenesis that
allows for that change to occur.
>> Well, the other hypothesis would be that
of Zachariah Sitchin, who suggests that
the ancient gods, the Anunnaki,
performed genetic experiments on on our
primate ancestors. and and that's how
the modern homo sapien developed.
>> Yes, that's true. Yeah, there there are
a lot of interesting theories and I
think there's this latent sense, you
know, Steven J. Gold had this discussion
of punctuated equilibria. is an
evolutionary biologist
>> and there are holes in the evolutionary
record and Carl Pauper would often talk
about materialist promisory notes where
you know materialism was taking out debt
and and had all sorts of placeholders
that they they would smuggle in sort of
fake answers for things
>> and I think the advent of uh culture and
agriculture 10,000 years ago uh and this
doubling of of you know brain size are
examples of that where you get these
sort of spikes in activity where it's
Like you're just you're saying that
we've been physiologically the same for
the last at least 200,000 years as human
homo sapiens. And then in 5% of that
time 10,000 years ago we get culture,
agriculture, history, you know, complex
structures that we're building,
specialization, urbanization. That seems
a little weird. I think we have to take
seriously the ancient astronaut
hypothesis that the this planet has been
under observation perhaps long before
humans evolved on it and and that there
have been genetic experiments taking
place by we don't know exactly who or
what the but many of the myths of
ancient gods seem to point in in that
direction. And if you look at the
various claims about um a hybrid program
taking place right now, uh people
credible people in my mind such as
Whitley Strieber who talk about you know
semen extraction taking place during
alien abductions. It may be the case
that those genetic experiments are
ongoing.
>> That would be wild. And we were talking
about Robert Bigalow. I find it
fascinating that the UFO disclosure
movement centers so much around Bigalow
aerospace. It's all about this OAP
program and Bigalow which was you know
they were going to receive this UFO from
Loheed Martin and he was clearly privy
to all sorts of sensitive UFO stuff. He
was studying these things at Skinwalker
Ranch but also elite scientists were
doing writeups in the forms of these
these sort of durs on like exotic
propulsion for him. So, he was really
the tip of the spear as far as people we
know about with resources um studying
this stuff. And then Bigalow will also
in interviews say aliens are walking
among us.
>> Yeah.
>> Implying that maybe they're human
hybrids or maybe they're men in black
style aliens in sort of skin suits or
something. I don't know. But what what
what do you make of that?
>> I don't think we can discount it. I I
have heard numerous reports uh along
those lines. I don't have any hard
evidence whatsoever. But in the larger
context of what I know and you know
about uh what's been going on over the
last let's say 70 80 years. It seems to
be a reasonable hypothesis.
>> Do you think Ted Owens was an alien?
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Do you think Ted Owens was an alien?
>> No. Just to push back on that, I don't,
you know, maybe he probably wasn't an
alien, but like if you have, you know,
variants of humans and you have somebody
like that with like macro PK skills,
>> I would, you know, like if I were to
like choose the aliens, it would be the
people who like Matilda style could do
like telekinesis and like summon
hurricanes and that sort of thing. Like
that would those would be maybe my first
candidates. Well, Ingo Swan uh claimed
to have used remote viewing to travel to
the moon where he believed there were
aliens who forced him off the the moon.
But his point was they have stronger
psychic abilities than even a very
talented human such as himself. And uh I
think that's probably true that that all
the reports talk about, you know, really
clear telepathic communication with with
these aliens. But it's not as if humans
can't do these things.
>> If you go to Mars telepathically, the
first thing you'll encounter is a group
of five telepaths who are not exactly
welcoming. And if they don't manage to
throw you out, then they add four more.
So there's nine of them after which get
a headache and go to bed.
>> The aliens would then be on the
continuum of human evolution and they
would be more advanced than us. And uh
epistemic frameworks coming from things
like remote viewing would bump into
aliens just like Pat Price's remote
viewing these alien bases across the
earth under skip atwater you know or
with you know Ingo Swan where he's
remote viewing an alien base on the
moon. It's like you're bumping into
their channel,
>> right?
>> It's like you first you're you're
Maronei, you're the first person to
develop a radio and then you get kind of
a weird signal and you're like where's
the signal coming from? And that's like
maybe what's going on with the remote
viewers or something.
>> I think there's a lot to that idea and
then one has to ask if they've been
monitoring us. Some people would say
we're like a a garden or a farm for them
that they're watching. uh what is their
ultimate intention? Where is this what
is this leading to? And uh I recently
interviewed people who claim to have
direct information about that and
suggest that they the intention is to
build a civilization where humans and
aliens will be living together on this
planet.
>> Who are those people? I've done a series
of interviews with two individuals
who exist in one body. They used the
names Anakah and Tristan. I've now
completed 10 interviews with Anakah and
Tristan. Uh what they do is uh beyond
anything to my knowledge that is known
of in the literature of multiple
personalities or what's called
dissociative identity disorder. So when
one of you is in the body, where's the
other one?
>> Um they are in a meditative state. So um
sometimes they can be completely removed
to the body. So Tristan just left the
body completely like he just moved
outside of it and he reduced his
presence in the body completely. So now
it's now it's just me. But then if I let
go of the body and okay, so now I'm in
the body. It's it's very jarring, too,
cuz you're going from a state where
you're you don't have access to the
senses and you're very much in this very
strange state of consciousness and then
you're coming back into the physical
world. So, it's it's jarring for us.
>> They're perfectly comfortable with each
other. They can switch back and forth uh
instantly. Uh there are neuroscientists
interested in studying them. I'm hoping
to set up some serious laboratory uh
work, brain scans and and the like
neuroiming while that happens because it
they can sing duets together and I've
been interviewing them over a couple of
years now.
They claim at this point to have
memories of having lived outside of the
Earth on other planets and other
lifetimes and that they're on a mission
to help ease the what the way they would
call it would be unifying the timelines,
but ease this transition that humanity
is going through right now of basically
first contact with
public contact with aliens who have
probably been here for a very long time.
My understanding is that their lifespans
can be much longer than ours for
example. So uh while we say you know
human history goes back five maybe
15,000 years to go blacky
the lifespan of of some aliens could be
longer than that. Uh but in any case
they claim that um that there is a plan
uh and there are some books from
contacties that go into greater detail
about that.
>> Wow.
>> Which they endorse.
>> Anukica and Tristan.
>> Yeah.
>> And these are two personalities in one
body and they can switch back and forth
at ease.
>> Yes. And they're aware of each other
while they're one of the personalities
is sort of dominating the conversation
or embodying the body.
>> Yeah.
>> It's aware of the other personality.
>> Yeah.
>> Unlike traditional dissociative identity
disorder.
>> Exactly.
>> Wow.
>> And there are now eight interviews that
have already been released on the New
Thinking Aloud channel. Two more to go.
>> I can't wait to watch these. That's
fascinating. And so they also claimed to
sort of have knowledge of their past
lives in which they were on other
planets or something,
>> right? They they were working on these
same problems from the point of view of
being an alien.
>> What do they attribute that ability to
integrate to, you know, like that seems
really rare, the ability to switch back
and forth like that and coexist in
harmony?
>> It it's rare. I don't know of another
case like it. and they would attribute
it to being part of their mission. That
it's their way of demonstrating that uh
there's more to human consciousness than
we suspect. It it would seem to suggest
that, you know, the soul and the body
are separate that they they can each
enter and leave the body at will. Well,
you're a fan of William James, the you
know, father of modern psychology, but
also a lot of people don't know he was,
uh, you know, the president of the
society for psychical research as well,
and he's really interested in
parasychology, too. One of the early
kind of proponents of it, and he had
this transmission theory of
consciousness, this filtering mechanism
of consciousness that you eloquently
write about and speak about. And so
maybe, you know, if you were changing
the channel on a TV or something, this
sort of integrated double identity thing
going on with Anukica and Tristan might
make a little more sense.
>> And if we can begin to nail down what
happens in the brain while that is going
on, I think that'll be an advancement.
Whether you consider it two souls in one
body as I do or an unusual case of
dissociative identity disorder, it still
says a lot about mindbody interaction.
>> Yeah, you mentioned uh bending timelines
or integrating timelines in order to
sort of ease a transition involving
contact with non-human intelligence. Uh,
I'm sure you've had this thought, but
you are probably a large node and a big
part of easing that transition.
>> Well, I sometimes suspect there may be
more going on than I'm even consciously
aware of.
>> I bet you that that's the case.
>> Yeah,
>> because you also started the show. Well,
I mean, what was the inspiration for the
show? Because I think it has a very
interesting origin story. Well, if we go
back to when I was a graduate student in
criminology,
1972,
um I would say that um I was already
very interested in the paranormal and in
mysticism, but I never thought I'd have
a career uh in in that area.
I was specializing in what you could
call deviant psychology, crime and and
psychopathology.
It's what I was looking at. And
I had at that time two dreams that
changed my life completely. Uh the first
one was a dream where a great uncle of
mine who I hadn't seen in years but was
like my favorite greatuncle
uh appeared in the dream. It was a I
call it a visitation and it late I later
learned it occurred at the moment of his
death
and when that happened I decided that I
needed to change my career focus.
uh and try to find a career that focused
on positive forms of human devian rather
than negative.
That was very hard to do even though I
was in at school at the University of
California, one of the largest and best
in the world.
uh there weren't opportunities
very much to study the paranormal or
mysticism
and but there were a few professors who
who who were sympathetic and supportive
and I agonized what am I going to do and
uh then months later after months of
agony really [sighs]
I knew one day I was going to have a
dream. I woke up and said, "Tonight the
dream is going to happen. I'm going to
know." And I had a dream that night in
which I was visiting some friends of
mine who lived across town in Berkeley
um in a married student housing
apartment. I knocked on the door. I knew
them very well. There was no answer.
And in the dream, I found a key, let
myself in to their apartment, and in the
middle of the living room floor, there
was a magazine spread open. I picked it
up, began paging through it. The name of
the magazine in my dream was I, E.
And then I woke up with this feeling of
exhilaration, like, wow, I've got the
answer. But I didn't know what it meant.
And so instinctively, I acted out the
dream. I put on my tennis shoes, ran
across town,
got to the apartment, knocked on their
door, and there was no answer as I had
dreamt. And in fact, I knew where they
hid a key. And so I let myself in.
And there in the middle of the living
room floor, just as I had dreamt, was a
magazine. I picked it up. It was called
Focus.
And it gave me Focus for the really the
first time in my life. It was a magazine
of listener sponsored radio and
television, KQED,
in the San Francisco Bay area.
As I was paging through it, it dawned on
me for the very first time in my life
that I could pursue my interests by
getting involved in the nonprofit se
segment of the media.
So,
>> wow, that's amazing. So I I went to KPFA
radio, Pacifica radio in Berkeley, which
was also a nonprofit,
and said I had my master's degree at the
time. I said, "Can I volunteer?" And
they said, "Sure. Sit at this desk, and
when you hear the doorbell ring, push
this button and let people in the front
door, which I gladly did." And within
three weeks, I had learned how to
produce a radio program. I did my first
program on
You don't have to be from out of town to
be psychic.
>> Wow.
>> And the program director liked it so
much he said, "We have a slot for you
every Tuesday and Thursday at noon. We'd
like you to host this interview show
called The Mind's Ear." And all of a
sudden I found myself sitting just like
this at of course there was a table in
those days with leading experts, authors
of books, people like Robert Monroe
coming through the Bay Area on their
book tour. And that gave me the
confidence to then go back to the
university and take advantage of a very
obscure rule they had that if you're a
graduate student in good standing. And
you want to do a dissertation on a topic
that no department would be willing to
sponsor and you can find three faculty
members of from different departments
who will agree to sponsor you. you can
create your own individual
interdisciplinary
doctoral program. And so that's how I
ended up seven years later earning a
doctoral degree in parasychology.
>> That's amazing. It's almost like a
little divine intervention. You had a
precognitive dream that also I know
another former interviewee of yours,
Eric Wargo, would describe as a time
loop.
>> Yeah. Because had you not had the dream,
you wouldn't have been motivated to, you
know, find the magazine that said focus
and then you wouldn't have got gotten
the focus in order to join the radio
station and then, you know, get the
parasychology degree. And so if you
hadn't have been paying attention to the
dream, you wouldn't have taken action,
>> right?
>> It's so fascinating.
>> Yeah, I'm still fascinated by it. It
seems to me that little event in my life
says say says a great deal. And and
normally what I tell people about it,
people ask is it seems to me that the
universe as a whole wants each of us to
become the best version of ourselves,
which is going to be different for
everybody.
>> Uh and that if you set out to do that,
to get in touch with, you know, your own
deep inner purpose, the universe is
going to help you
>> in one way or another.
>> Yeah.
I think that's right. I think when you
when you find the thing that you're
supposed to be doing, it feels like
almost paranormally things start to
happen. It's almost like um the opposite
of entropy. You know, I know people use
words like centropy or whatever, but
>> um it's like a reduction in the in the
randomness and an increase in these
synchronicities where you're you're
being shown that you're on the right
path and it's you know the the the path
is sort of being cleared for you. I bet
that's happened to you, too.
>> Oh, yeah, it has. Well, meeting you
originally and being such a fan of your
stuff and Yeah, it has. Like, every step
of the way, in fact, there are times
I've tried to quit and um like early on
especially um I'll give you an example.
Like I didn't put out a show for nine
months between Graham Hancock and David
Grush. And uh I was really contemplating
like you know I I was like I didn't have
social media before starting the show. I
don't particularly love the discourse on
Twitter and you know other other
platforms like that. And I just like to
like read and meet people and I'm you
know I'm sort of ultimately actually
kind of an introvert and I get I don't
know I get also with these sorts of
topics they're fascinating to me and I
feel like I I need to get deeper on
them. I'm sure you have the same sort of
impulse.
>> And then I also simultaneously
am sort of afraid of them and I'm afraid
of getting deeper and I I realize that
there are a lot of people who get, you
know, too deep or they have sort of the
wrong impure motivation. So I'm always
trying to audit my motivations. So
anyways, all of this is going through my
head and I've basically all but quit. I
haven't done a show in a long time and
nine months and then I'm in Europe and
I'm with my friend Omar who runs this
amazing channel called Yes Theory, this
really big YouTube channel. David Grush
had already come out um through
NewsNation and I had known him for
probably a year and a half or two years
at that point and my I was with my
friend Amar and he's like you know this
guy and everybody in the world is
hanging on his every word. They want to
know what he's going to say next because
he's this guy who's very above board.
He's handled the presidential daily
brief. You know, colleagues have come
out in support of his and he seems
totally lucid and he's saying that he
has like hundreds of pages of
documentation of this legacy UFO crash
retrieval program going on, Sub Rosa.
He's like, "You need to interview this
guy." And I was like, "Ah, man. I've
YouTube. I'm I'm done with all this
stuff." Uh, and uh, and uh, eventually
he kind of convinces me and uh, I I call
Dave with my friend Amar and he's like,
"Oh, I'm a I'm a huge Yes fan. Like I,
you know, I love what what they do and
yeah, like why don't why don't we do a
thing where it's like you can do
something with Yes Theory and we we do
something, you know, on the Hill for
when I, you know, when I testify and
then you can follow me back to Colorado.
We'll we'll, you know, go ating
together. We'll have a great time." And
I'm just like, I can't say no to that.
Sounds amazing. [laughter]
So I do that. We have the best time
ever. We create this little mini dock
>> and then from then on I'm like ah I
guess I'm back in it. And I've had a
little instances like that where if I
get demoralized I get like redirected
back.
>> Mhm.
>> It's very fascinating. You can't you
know as a morat you got to love your
fate.
>> Good point. Have you had instances like
that where you feel like you you almost
have to like test whether something is
right for you where you you you peel
back on it and then you get sort of
forced back into it because clearly
you're supposed to be doing that.
>> Um there have been times as I mentioned
earlier I had to fight a liel suit.
>> Uh I have had to deal with uh skeptics
who who viciously attacked me for
different reasons. Uh there have been
times when uh in order to support myself
I got involved in other professions
uh which is good. I learned things like
as you learned along the way about
business and about computer programming
and a lot of practical skills that if I
had only done paranormal research I
might not have learned.
>> Yeah. Well clearly you you know it's
like the Steve Jobs speech. You can
connect the dots going backwards but not
forwards. And maybe this is an argument
for retrocausality or something. But the
fact that you studied criminology and
sociopathy and then you were like
uniquely fitted to dealing with Ted
Owens for as long as you did, that just
doesn't feel coincidental to me.
>> Well, Ted Owens himself had a similar
career. He had he was a high-speed
typist in a law office. He was at one
time a jazz musician, played the drums.
He was a a bullhip artist in a sideshow
and he had a knife throwing act with his
wife. [laughter]
Unbelievable. Something that's coming to
mind for me is I had a flashback of I
learned this from you. You said this on
New Thinking Aloud that uh
>> weird. The root of it is Celtic Wy RD.
And that actually means fate.
>> Yeah. And so I find it very interesting
that your fate is studying the weird,
but in the modern the modern connotation
of weird, [laughter] I'd say the same
for me in some ways.
>> Some people think that weird is is a
word of disparagement, which is how it's
used these days, but I think of it as
being a positive magical thing.
>> Oh yeah. Well, like if you're part of
the consensus, what are you adding? If
you're weird, you know, you're you're
you're you're at least adding. And you
know, you could you could also be
subtracting. It's it's it's one or the
other. I always challenge people. I just
debated Michael Shurmer on the show. Is
there one non-conensus thinker now that
you would get behind?
>> I don't know because if I knew I would
get behind him, [laughter]
>> but is important to do that work, right,
to take bets. Absolutely. You know, if
history is moved forward by non-conensus
thinkers, you know, of course, he get he
claps back at me and he goes, "Well,
you're picking the winners. You know,
there are more bad non- consensus
thinkers than good non-conensus
thinkers. But I sort of maintain my my
point. If history is moved forward
fundamentally by non-conensus thinkers,
if you can't pick one non-conensus
thinker now that you agree with, then
you're probably on the wrong side of
history. And so you're systematically
compiling these non-conensus thinkers.
Well, there's also been some recent uh
studies, in fact, just published, I
think a week ago, um surveying
physicists because there is this idea
that oh, physicists have consensus. They
all agree on the standard model of of
cosmology and physics. And the survey
recently showed that adherence to the
standard model is only about 30%
[laughter] of physicists. So the idea
that there is a consensus is probably a
myth.
>> Yeah. No, I agree. I mean, it's funny
again going back to the Shurmer
discussion, we were talking about dark
matter, which is when you think of dark
matter, you think of it as this
canonical staple in physics, in modern
day physics. It's part of the bedrock,
right?
>> And I'm getting into it with him and I'm
like, wait, so light doesn't interact
with this thing and it kind of justifies
gravity's weakness on a cosmological
scale, but we have no idea what it is.
We just call it dark matter. And then
I'm going through all the UFO evidence,
all the stuff around nuclear sites
across the country. And I'm like, we
directly measure these things on radar.
We have optical. We have photos. In the
case of McMinnville and Lake Coat, we
have video. We have, you know,
experiencers. We have all these things.
And I was like, do you believe in UFOs
as much as you believe in dark matter?
And I eventually got him to sort of
concede. But it's it's really certain
things are sacred cows and you're not
supposed to kind of question them. But
you're right. If you have, you know, a
few drinks with a physicist, they'll
often say, "Oh, yeah, there are all
these problems with the standard model."
You know, [laughter]
I think at people's core, everybody's
more idiosyncratic and less herdlike
than it seems.
>> Dark matter and dark energy are just
words. They're placeholders for
something's going on and we don't know
what.
>> That's exactly right. With dark energy,
you can literally put that through your
favorite AI, Gemini, Chat GBT, whatever.
And you say, you know, what is this?
It's like, oh, it's cosmic inflation.
What's the cosmic inflation being caused
by? Oh, well, it's a repulsive almost
form of gravity, but it's but it's not
gravity. It's not one of the four
fundamental forces. Like, what are you
talking about at that point? [laughter]
And then you just like throw it in the
model. You Oh, okay. Oh, it's dark
energy. Okay, cool. Okay. Okay.
let's slam the door shut on that. And
it's the same thing with quantum physics
as you know very well with you know
parasychology. There all these people
who are like you can't affect random
quantum processes with your mind. And
then you say okay well what are you
basing your dogmatic opposition to that
on? And they say something like oh the
Copenhagen interpretation. Then you say
okay what's the Copenhagen interpret
interpretation? Well the father of
quantum mechanics Neils Boore said that
you know you got to kind of you know
it's a mathematical formalism. It's not
a descriptor of reality and you know
holds no weight as far as ontological
truth. If you think you understand it,
you don't understand it. And then you
and then I'm like, okay, so you don't
understand it. And then you had all
these people at the time in quantum
mechanics sort of flirting with the idea
that maybe the mind is involved in wave
function collapse, whether it was
Vonoyman or Vner or later David Bow, who
was seen as smarter than Einstein in
many respects and was his student. And
then it's like well this is totally
unfalsifiable in both directions. Both
both sides have sort of dogma and then
you have evidence on the side of the
parasychology people where you have all
these random event generator
experiments.
>> It reminds me of um a book by my old
friend Robert Anton Wilson.
>> Oh yeah.
>> Who wrote reality is whatever you can
get away with.
>> That's amazing. That's wild. You were
friends with him. What what was he like?
He was a lovely person and um he had a
tragic life. He he had polio
as a child and and then his daughter,
his beautiful 15-year-old daughter was
tragically murdered in in Berkeley.
Um but he was brilliant, absolutely
brilliant. And and I have to say I've
now done a series of interviews with a
fellow named Gabriel Kennedy who has
written a biography
>> of him. And I don't think when I knew
him I thought of him as a brilliant
novelist
and a fun guy to be around and witty and
a friend to Timothy Liry and so on. I
didn't appreciate the the depth of his
thinking when I knew him then. And I'm
trying to make up for that by doing more
interviews about him now because I think
he was an important thinker.
>> Oh yeah, definitely an important thinker
and and an iconoclast as well.
>> Yeah.
>> Um getting back to this idea that the
soul survives the body and is kind of
transcends the body,
>> you have mystery rituals in all these
disperate cultures that sort of simulate
death before death. Yeah. you know, on
this cathedral in Greece around the
Elusinian mystery rituals, you had, you
know, if you die before you die, you
won't die when you die. And I'm probably
botching that slightly, but
>> that idea is prevalent across disperate
cultures. And it's almost like the body
is a collapsing function on a a default
state of greater omniscience. If you go
back to Plato, the the bodily senses are
misleading and there's some fundamental
prior truth involved in the soul. And
when you temporarily kill the body, you
somehow experience that soul state,
>> right?
>> Is that something that has been
ritualized across cultures? And does
that exist at all today? I mean a modern
example of it would be the psychoantium
developed by Raymond Moody that was
based on the discovery in ancient Greece
of underground temples
uh where the priests lived underground
and people who wanted to communicate
with the dead would go visit them and I
think uh they've been uncovered
archaeologically now. They would have a
big bowl filled with water which served
as a device for scrying uh the way a
crystal ball or a mirror. So, what would
work? And Raymond Moody said, "All you
really need to do is go into a dark room
with a mirror." And it's useful to have
some preparation in advance and sit in
the dark room with the mirror for a
while. And you'll see
that uh you'll have communication or
communion or an apparition will will
appear. And uh people have now been
researching that. It's an age-old
practice. Um, Peter Kingsley writes
about prescratic rituals even before the
Elusinian mystery rituals as does
Haidiger actually where if you cut off
all of the senses,
>> it's not like you get silence, you get
all sorts of weird apparitions. And then
John Lily, another CIA scientist,
develops the sensory deprivation
isolation tank. He claims to communicate
with an alien intelligence he calls uh
SSI. And you know that also seems to be
like this thing that allows you to
remote view and allows you to port your
consciousness into all these disperate
locations and and and sense things that
are beyond the five senses.
>> There have been many experiments like
the the psychoantium and work with the
sensory isolation tanks and the Gansfeld
experiments. But really uh I would say
the a deeper cultivation of these skills
would be found in say Tibetan Buddhism
where some practitioners will go into
isolation for uh a year or more at a
time living just in a dark cell and uh
staying awake while they enter into the
dream state and and so on that there
there's such a a vast best difference
between, you know, what modern
scientists are able to do today and what
a an ancient tradition like Tibetan
Buddhism has been able to accomplish
over centuries.
>> It seems like a lot of religions, at
least at their sort of more esoteric
core, were centered around the
liberation of the soul from the body,
even the temporary liberation. And then
you sort of come back and you have a
higher purpose. you've experienced that
more kind of primordial soul self and
you understand your mission in life a
little bit better.
>> I would only qualify that by suggesting
that while we use language that says the
soul separates from the body, it might
be almost the opposite. It might be like
going deeper into the body.
>> I don't have you ever read Alberto Ekko
by any chance?
>> I have. He he has this great book called
Fuko's pendulum
and it's sort of I don't know in some
ways it's an interesting pmic on the
whole research of UFOs or something and
he talks about these sort of ecstatic
states that you that you reach in sort
of a gnostic sense and then through that
you can also you know experience like a
higher nosis or something
>> and I think I think it's yeah it's
either deep embodiment or deprivation or
something you have the aesthetic
protocols of St. Ignatius of Lyola and
then you have this other sort of more
you know kind of like hedonistic like
full sensory thing and maybe in both
cases
>> you sort of you know transcend I don't
know
>> I think the problem is human language
actually we have these categories we're
always trying to make something fit into
a linguistic model and we're dealing
with a reality that transcends language
>> yeah I think that's Right. Yeah. It's
like the sending and receiving, you
know, receiving you have to be selfless
and sending you you have to be a little
more aggressive or something. That's
obviously an oversimplification, you
know, like yeah, we're just uh we're
just so so in the stone age on this
stuff. And I just hope,
>> you know, it's like what have we spent
collectively on parasychology in the
open source world in the last hundred
years? Probably 30 to 50 million bucks
or something if that. Yeah.
>> And what do we spend on one large
collider? $15 billion. And so that's the
other retort to people who are like,
well, why have you not made any
progress? Well, it's there no resources
and academia's kind of largely shut it
down despite the actual academics who
are involved with this stuff saying that
there's something there. I just helped
to create a doctoral and a master's
degree program that includes a
specialization in parasychology at the
California Institute for Human Science
and it's the first program of its kind
since I used to teach at John F. Kennedy
University back in around 1980 uh when
they had a master's degree in
parasychology and that program shut down
I think after a year or two. It's
heartening to see that there's a sort of
resurgence. If you take a basket, uh,
you know, psychedelics, UFOs,
parasychology,
all of those things were like very
invogue in the ' 50s and 60s and then
something happened in the late60s, early
'7s where a lot of these things just
started to get marginalized. And you
could say that you could be
conspiratorial, say that was kind of a
systematic, you know, marginalization
things like, you know, Timothy Liry was
this intelligence construct and he
intentionally went overboard with these
things. You know, I'm sure part of that
is true. Um, but it seems to be like a
lot of these things are sort of coming
back. Well, the work that you and I are
each doing, just having a conversation
like this that goes out over the
internet, uh, is a way of, uh, expanding
things slowly, but it seems as if the
human population can only take so much
at a time.
>> Yeah. Well, that's interesting. When you
study the random event generators,
there's almost like a rebound effect.
So, you're in like a flow state. You're
getting a So, okay. So a one or a zero
shows up on a graphical interface and
that's tied to the random kind of
quantum mechanical thing. And so the
observer shows up, they say, "I want
more ones." And all of a sudden they're
getting more ones. They see a lot of
ones. They see a lot of ones. There's a
great book written about this by a guy
named Herb Mertz who is at the um you
know Princeton Engineering and Anomalous
Research Center and he describes this.
So you're in this flow state and it's
just like you're shooting threes in
basketball and you're making every shot
and you're like how is this possible? or
you're playing poker and you're just
winning everything over and over again
and then you become self-conscious and
you're like, I'm pretty good at this,
aren't I? Wow, I'm I'm doing this. And
you you start to overidentify with your
success. And then there's this sort of
rebound effect. And it feels like when
covering these sort of frontier
consciousness things, I notice that I
when I try to like speedrun it and go
too fast, there's this bizarre rebound
effect. And it's like, what? Not so
fast. And it's almost like you you see a
little mud get slung at the thing that
you were so high conviction in.
>> Yeah. And it it's like adaptively
stigmatized in certain cases like like
it's like you know both of us have these
independent media you know it's like
it's it's on YouTube and stuff and I
think
90% plus of what you cover is really
credible and I'd say the same of of of
myself but it somehow has to move
through or permeate you know society in
like this way that like it like can't be
too fast or something. That's what I
find. It's like there's some higher
intelligence holding it back.
>> Well, I think it goes back to Freud
actually who who pointed out the whole
idea of Freudian defense mechanisms is
that we is speaking of the human
population. We don't really want to know
what's in our own mind,
let alone have other people be able to
know what's in our own mind. So, so
there's a motivation to suppress these
things at a very instinctual level and
and only slowly I think are people can
now for example talk about topics that
were forbidden in the 1950s.
>> Yeah. And it's what I also find and I'm
sure you would resonate with this is
that the people who are deeply involved
in UFO research and parasychology
research, it's often some
autobiographical quest and they have
synchronicities that got them into the
field
>> and you know you read Ralph Blumenthal's
amazing you know uh the believer you
know about John Mack
>> and it's like you think of John Mack as
this like you point to him as this
credentialed expert and you say, "Oh,
he's looking into abduction, so take
abduction seriously because he's a
Harvard psychiatry guy." But then you
read this book and you're like, "Oh,
well, he was meeting with Stan Stal
Grath and he was, you know, he was
really he had issues with his mother
early on in life and like, you know, he
was sort of reconnecting with himself
through holotropic breath work and
through these techniques that he was
evangelizing with, you know, these
experiencers." And of course you have to
present things in ways that you know
make nice with the kind of
epistemological paradigm of the present
day, right?
>> But I think if everybody were to go full
open kimono about their lives and what
why they believe what they believe, it
would always be like super pre-leveraged
by some autobiographical quest and need
for personal meaning. We talked about
the word weird earlier and and it's my
understanding that most people probably
well over 70% of the population have
something weird going on. [laughter]
>> That's right. No, I think they do. And I
think this idea that you can't own that
uh sucks and is stupid. I think we
should just own like you know I
interviewed Graham Hancock and his the
first piece that he ever did was it was
like for a I think a magazine or
something and he was writing an article
on the ark of the covenant.
>> Yeah.
>> And it was sort of this beautiful quest
of like the search for all knowledge and
then you know through that he you know
then figured out that societ you know
civilization is probably much older than
we think it is. you have Gbeclette and
other discoveries and he sort of really
helps rewrite history but it was through
this search for the ark of the covenant
>> which to me is like so significant you
know and
>> I think you have all these examples like
that when you speak to a lot of these
people off camera and then on camera
>> you know it's like you have to separate
the observer and the observed which can
never really be done you know we're all
following we're all chasing our own
mythologies everybody is the skeptic is
too
>> and people are afraid afraid that if
they talk about it openly, other people
will think they're crazy.
>> Yes. Well, that's the other thing about,
you know, I love this Terrence McKenna
quote where he says, "A secret is not
something that isn't told. It's
something that cannot be told."
>> Still a secret. It's still a secret.
It's the secret that can't be told. And
so I think some of these
synchronicities, if you go open kimono
with them, you really tell them to the
world, they would land so flat and
people would not take them seriously at
all. They stigmatize themselves.
>> And so I think they're extremely
significant to the person and maybe to
people with sort of ears to hear, but
otherwise I think they, you know, they
wouldn't resonate at all. And so this
ability to even resonate with these
topics is also kind of a gating factor
for shows like ours to take hold in
society too. And that's one of the
reasons I think that poetry is so
important that there's a way of
expressing these truths that is
non-threatening
through through language that is
poetical rather than logical.
>> I would agree. You know, I think there's
there's sort of a semantic truth and
then there's truth that hits you on sort
of a Gnostic deeper level. Yeah.
>> And yeah, poetry gets at that. Art gets
at that. Uh Schopenhau famously said, I
think music is the closest thing to the
divine. And so, you know, yeah, we can
we can try to parse it all these things
semantically, but we're just we're going
to hopelessly triangulate a thing that
is it's just there's no way to to to
really talk about it without
experiencing it.
>> That's true. And and it seems as if uh
having the firsthand experience makes
makes the difference. Most of the
scientists who are really serious about
this field have had the experience and
scientists who haven't had the
experience tend to be skeptical even
when they look at the data.
>> Yeah, I think that's right. When Carl
Young was asked, you know, do you
believe in God? He said, I don't
believe. I know. Mhm.
>> And uh yeah, I think there's a there's a
big difference between, you know, being
able to sort of intellectually
create firmament behind, you know,
saying something's real and then just
knowing it in your core.
>> Did you ever interact with a woman named
Valerie Ransone?
>> And up at Northern Illinois University,
1971 October, it's around 11:00 a.m. and
I noticed a strange object above the
student union building. It was like an
aircraft without a fuselage and it was
just suspended above the building. And
that was my first experience.
>> She was like trying to communicate with
aliens through xenol linguistics through
uh she there was this group called the
ether ship. This guy Willard de Bogart
and um she was in the White House
actually.
>> I did.
>> You did?
>> My goodness. Yes. I I was invited
>> Uhhuh. back oh it was just around the
time I got married in 197879
she convened a meeting in um down in the
desert near um Joshua Tree I think 29
palms in in that area and there was a
group of about a dozen of us who showed
up and and um she she was a channeler
and she said she's in touch with what
she called the boys upstairs.
And she said, "The boys upstairs are
going to meet us." And uh at 3:00 in the
morning, and we got into a group of of
jeeps and drove out into the middle of
the desert, she said, "Four UFOs are
going to come and and land and and we're
going to meet with them." And we're out
in the desert late at night and we see
my mouth dropped open. Four lights
slowly descending.
>> No way.
>> Yes. In in front of us.
>> Really?
>> Yes.
>> Do you know her whole history? Cuz she
is fascinating. She was a former model
who was tied in with Puharic, but was
also at the Nixon White House and had a
lot of high access and was involved in a
lot of deep scientific research and and
and there was like even I think a
general who said that she, you know, was
routinely at the Nixon White House.
>> Well, when I knew her, she was working
in the Gerald Ford White House.
>> Well, there you go. and she was uh I
think she he had a program about
inflation wind whip inflation now and
and she was running that little program
out of the White House and uh
>> wait so she was involved with inflation
stuff
>> she was like wait I'm this is crazy
>> if it's the same person I'm pretty sure
her name was Valerie but this is so long
ago my memory could be fuzzy
>> I'm going to show you a picture the
video But but yeah, go for it.
>> The the end of the story is that it
turned out the four lights were in that
area there was a marine base and they
were out on maneuvers and what we were
witnessing were flares.
>> Oh, so do you think she was a kind of a
con artist?
>> No.
>> Okay.
>> No, I think it was synchronistic.
>> It was a synchronicity.
>> Yeah.
>> So she could sort of engineer the
synchronicity or something.
>> Well, or she got engineered by it.
>> Or she got engineered by it. And then
she went on to work with the Federal
Reserve and like central banking.
>> I never stayed in touch with her.
>> Okay. But you were saying she was
working on inflation in the in the
Gerald Ford White House.
>> That's my recollection. Yes.
>> Whoa. Yeah. She's fascinating. I really
want to interview her.
>> I I wonder if I just haven't had any
contact with her since 1979
or so. who of the people who you've
interviewed cuz sometimes you meet these
shadowy figures and you think that they
know so much and then you speak to them
and you're like you're just a person you
don't know you know you're you're kind
of groping in the dark like I am you
know
>> and then sometimes you meet certain
people and you're you have this kind of
inkling of like you're holding back you
know a lot more than you let on
>> who of the people who you've interviewed
fall into that second category
>> well I suppose
As you know, a lot of the guests I sit
down with, whether they're physicists,
intelligence officers, people who've
worked inside black programs, are
operating at a really impressive level
mentally. Sometimes I feel like I'm a
chimp talking to human beings. Often
their work takes a toll and a lot of
them track their health obsessively.
Regular lab work, obscure biomarkers,
often things that most people never look
at. Meanwhile, last time I went to a
primary care doctor, they ran maybe like
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Who of the people who you've interviewed
fall into that second category?
>> Well, I suppose
the most brilliant person who seemed to
be in touch with at a heart level with
the deepest reality
>> that I ever met uh was probably
Jean Houston
>> who died just about two months ago.
>> Tell me about Gene Houston.
>> She um and her husband Robert Masters
co-authored a book called Varieties of
Psychedelic Experience in about 1968.
She so she was regarded as a one of the
founders of psychedelic research, one of
the founders of the human potential
movement and she created what she called
a mystery school which I attended for
some years
>> and she had the ability a very rare gift
to induce mystical experiences.
>> She could induce mystical experiences.
What what do you mean by that? Well, for
example,
on one occasion, I was in her mystery
school program and she gave a lecture on
Carlos Suarez book. He's a cobalist. He
wrote a book called the cipher of
Genesis. And she went through the very
first sentence of the book of Exod uh
book of Genesis. Uh in the beginning,
God created the heavens and the earth.
And she went through it in Hebrew,
letter by letter.
Um, beret bar adono,
etc. in Hebrew.
In [clears throat] the beginning, God
created the heavens and the earth. And
somehow as I'm listening to this
lecture, I got it. And I had the
experience of
how it happened, how God created this
universe. And I was rolling on the
floor. And I was laughing hysterically.
I thought it was the funniest thing in
the world that God created all of this.
And the next minute I'd be in tears,
tears of joy, really. And and
[clears throat]
she saw me like that rolling on the
floor having this experience and she
looked at me and she winked.
Wow. [sighs]
Wow.
>> And she said to me, "Oh, so you're
having an epiphany." [laughter]
>> Yeah. But almost like in this cheeky
way, like she knew exactly what she had
induced.
>> Yeah.
>> That's wild.
>> Yeah.
>> She sounds like an ascended master or
something. [laughter] and she was known
for that. Certainly not the only person.
People who knew her well had these kinds
of experiences in her presence.
>> It's interesting how it's often the
people that aren't super
self-promotional. And like I I don't
know what your experience of her was,
but I imagine she wasn't very
egotistical or showy about her
abilities.
>> Well, she had a lot of theatrical
talent. I can say that. Very talented.
She could have been an actress and and
she did voices and and she was within
the human potential community very well
known.
>> Okay. Okay. Well, maybe she was
self-promotional. I don't know.
>> Well, you know, she supported herself
throughout her life by uh doing these
workshops and traveling around the world
and uh she worked with many many
different cultures. I would say, you
know, she was she knew how to
live a a very full life.
>> Did you ever get deeper with her on her
understanding of the nature of reality?
And did she ever say anything that was
pretty wild about that?
>> Well, I think that time she winked at me
was about as close as I got.
>> Sure. Yeah.
>> But she's written many books, maybe
about
>> Okay.
>> 20 books. Okay.
>> You know, she was amongst the she had a
big following. Let me let me put it that
way.
>> You mentioned meeting Robert Monroe.
That's pretty fascinating. He is another
guy who
>> studied consciousness. A lot of people
now cite this Hemisync paper from the
mid1 1980s
>> that involves synchronization of both
hemispheres. And you have the Monroe
Institute of course in Virginia.
>> Um, what was he like?
Well, uh, he he seemed like a very self-
aacing person. He was quiet. He, um,
>> he invited me to kind of, uh, join his
program, but, I was already in school at
Berkeley, so it wouldn't have been uh,
feasible or realistic for me at the
time. I kind of imagine what would life
have been like if I had I've done a
whole series of interviews with Tom
Campbell who worked with him closely and
Tom has wonderful stories about how the
Monroe Institute got built up and as a
result of his experiences he's developed
I would say a very credible theory of of
how these things work. Uh Tom believes
that he has the theory, the answer.
>> Yes.
>> Um and I don't know if I'd go quite that
far, but I think he's very close.
>> You got to tap into the right data
stream.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. He's fascinating. Yeah. I think he
also was at NASA, right? Tom Campbell,
>> possibly. I'm not sure about that.
>> So, you just intersected with all these
amazing people. I feel like I'm missing
somebody and I'm going to kick myself
after this interview if I if I miss
anyone. So, [laughter]
are there are there any other kind of
new thinking allowed guests that stick
out for you that sort of shocked you or
helped you develop your own worldview?
>> Well, I would be remiss if I didn't
mention Arthur Young.
>> Oh, yeah.
>> He he was a mentor to me and he was the
inventor of the Bell helicopter, the
first commercially licensed helicopter.
He was an amazing human being. I would
put him right up there with Jean Houston
in in terms of the people who have
influenced me the most intellectually
and at a heart level. Um when I was
just beginning my graduate program in uh
parasychology, he showed up in my life
and invited me to live with him to move
into the institute for the study of
consciousness he had set up in Berkeley.
So I had that experience and he was a
theorist. He had a theory of everything
which I also regard as being very
credible. What was his theory?
>> Well, it's complex. It um it's
enunciated in his book, The Reflexive
Universe. And it's I would say it's
consistent with the idea that um the the
process the whole universal process is
one of spirit descending into matter and
then matter ascending back into the
realm of spirit. M and so there's like a
Vshape and it starts out pure spirit he
would equate with light and and we
talked earlier about how if you're a
photon time and space don't even exist.
But then you go from light to particles
and the idea of attraction and repulsion
and then to atoms where you get form
something really solid and stable and
molecules and then you get complex
molecular chains uh like DNA and RNA and
and then that's the beginning of where
matter is moving back to the realm of
spirit and then you get life forms
single-sellled creatures and plants and
animals and ultimately humans.
What he did is he created what he called
the grid and he took in effect the
periodic table of the elements
and he expanded it to be a periodic
table of everything. M so within the
human kingdom based on this model he
placed modern humans such as you and I
uh right about in the middle in the same
place in the animal kingdom we would be
equivalent to clams
in terms of the potential of what an
animal could be that so he would say the
potential for you know to be fully
capable of what a a conscious sentient
being like a human could be. We We have
a long way to go.
>> I think about that sometimes like when
we talk about non-human intelligences,
we talk about them as others. We don't
talk about them as a continuum from us.
And we were just talking about how
latent in every human are these sigh
powers, abilities to sort of remote
view, be intuitive, you know, be
clairvoyant in certain cases. And that
seems to be fully developed in the case
of these kind of non-human entities. And
so why would you think of those entities
as wholly distinct from you rather than
kind of the next step on a chain of
evolution? And there are theorists, you
know, pre-Darwin that used to think of
the body or the vessel or the structure
as following what could kind of hold the
spirit.
>> And when the spirit sort of like
graduated that specific kind of training
ground, then it would ascend into like
another form. And so, and then you have,
I don't know, great researchers like Don
Hoffman who's at, you know, UC San
Diego, and he describes, uh, embodiment
as actually maladaptive for
consciousness. And so, we're likely just
teeming with, you know, disembodied
consciousness where it's there's less
latency and there's more, you know, uh,
just ability to sort of instantly react
and like know everything very quickly
and and so it's just so interesting. Did
would Arthur Young sort of agree with
that
graded ascent of man?
>> I I imagine he would, but I think he
also felt that figures like Jesus or
Buddha represented uh the future for
humanity.
>> Yeah. Well, that's a great future.
>> Yeah.
>> So cool, too, that he started again
another guy, nuts and bolts, inventor of
the bell helicopter. Nobody can take
that from him. And then he gets really I
mean I know he was close with you and
Booharic as well and he was involved in
some of those seances with the nine and
stuff.
>> That's all true.
>> So that's just such a such a fascinating
clearly a polymath.
>> Well here's the fascinating thing about
him to me.
He he was born as I recall in 1905. He
went to school at Princeton.
uh graduated in 1926,
studied Einstein's theory of relativity
back then when it was really new and and
Alfred North Whitehead's process
philosophy and he wanted to do process
philosophy himself which is really what
his theory is. It's about universal
process but he also felt that philosophy
as a field had failed.
because it didn't anticipate all of the
progress that humanity was making
through technology.
And he said to himself as a young man,
21 years old, in order to be worthy of
doing philosophy,
he had to show that he could master
something in the physical world.
>> Wow. So he went to the patent office in
in Washington
and looked for unsolved problems. He
discovered that there had been at that
point in 1926 maybe 200 different
efforts to build what we now call a
helicopter, a machine that could hover
in midair. And uh they had all failed.
So he set out with uh no particular
background in engineering to to solve
that problem and he worked on it from
1926
up until the first commercial
helicopters came off the assembly line
at Bell helicopters 1947.
>> That is remarkable. And to talk about uh
precociousness on the part of somebody
so young.
>> Yeah. to I mean most people you hear
about these stories like you know Edison
or Tesla or something it was like in
their DNA from a you know young age and
they were sort of playing with this
stuff really early on in his case it's
like to come to that intellectual
conclusion and then to just go full
force into you know and then and then to
actually invent the helicopter the bell
helicopter that's amazing
>> he spent the first 12 years as I recall
working on a design that uh at the end
of the day failed completely like mini
rotors at the ends of of the big rotors.
But he kept at it. He maintained his
focus. And after the helicopter had been
released and he was, you know, at that
point a very famous and wealthy person,
uh, then he decided he had earned the
right to do philosophy
>> and I think well all these machineries
and things are teach us laws how to make
things. That's why I wanted to make the
helicopter so I learn how to make
things.
>> It it it helps in in how to put a
philosophy together.
>> You picked a great mentor.
>> He picked me. I
>> Well, as as it's often the case, it's
sort of birectional or meant to be. But
that is so cool that what a what an
amazing and uh complete life, you know.
I think I I always find it interesting
when somebody's kind of an industrialist
and they interact with the physical
world because philosophy can at times be
divorced from it. You don't get the the
feedback from the kind of cold hard free
market uh or or or you know cold hard
mechanics of technology. Um, but then on
the other side, you can end up in this
sort of philistine, you know, I just
need to make more money and you're sort
of, you know, have a lifeless attitude
towards your consumers if you don't have
the philosophical angle. And so I think
having having both is very cool. It
>> Yes, it can be a trap to be very
wealthy. Most of the wealthy people I've
ever known have been miserable, but not
all of them. I another major supporter
of my work was a fellow named Buck
Charlesson who invented power steering.
>> Wow.
>> And and the hydraulic motor and he he
was a person without much formal
education and the ideas would just pop
into his mind like with Tesla fully
formed and and then he he was working
with farmers in in Minnesota and he
would ask them what what do you need?
and and as a result of that he would
make build inventions to satisfy the
needs of the local farmers and that led
to a hydraulic motor he built. I think
the first one maybe came out in about 19
64 or so it was called the Jerrotor
and um
as far as I know they're still
manufacturing them using the same
design.
>> Amazing. And so he felt that
his his fortune and his his fame came to
him from an intuitive source and
therefore he wanted to give back to the
source.
>> Oh, that's beautiful. I love that. You
know, it's also just so interesting that
when you audit the scientific process,
it looks a lot more like revelation than
it does like some final inductive logic
step.
>> Yeah. where you just finish the
equation. Often it's like, you know,
you're in Einstein's case a patent clerk
and you're sort of dozing off, you know,
or you get you get some sort of I'm a
big fan of this mid-century inventor
named Thomas Townsen Brown. I don't know
if you're familiar with him.
>> I believe I've heard of him.
>> He worked in the world of gravity
manipulation and I think made more
inroads than meets the eye. I think his
work was sort of suppressed, but he
attributes a lot of his life's work to a
UFO experience he had, I think, at the
age of 17 on Catalina Island. It was
like this hierophony.
>> Yeah. I'm sure there are many more cases
like that we don't know about.
>> Yeah. Well, I think if scientists were
to scientifically study the phenomena of
science, they would find it to look a
lot more like, you know, religious
experience than they would what they
what it's conceived of in the modern
day. It's similar to your sort of, you
know, lack of consensus around the
standard model pmic. There was a
philosopher of science who took that
attitude who I got to meet Paul Fireend.
>> Oh, I love him. Against method.
>> Yeah.
>> Tell us about him.
>> Well, he um when he published his book,
you may know that there was an astrology
chart he put on the back page. He took
real issue with the scientists, about a
hundred of them from the SCOP primarily
motivated to uh publish an artic a a
what would you call it? a white paper or
something uh criticizing astrology,
scientists who knew nothing about
astrology. And he he he said that uh
this was a total abuse of the scientific
method to claim that they had an
authority to to say that astrology was
nonsense. So he published his own chart
on on the back of his book and he said
if you look at what scientists actually
do, the great discoveries in science are
often accidental or they come from
people who totally disregarded what we
think of as you know popper and the the
scientific method.
>> No, totally. Yeah. I I love the example
of Maronei who was right because he was
wrong. He thought that uh
electromagnetic waves might curve when
and so he tried to send it across the
Atlantic, but he just didn't anticipate
the ionosphere. So the electromagnetic
wave bounced off the ionosphere
accidentally and then he sent the the
message successfully. I think poking at
the boundaries of reality often gets you
really amazing results. And like you
said, sort of can be accidental. And
that's not to say, you know, it's like
the persistence finds you when you're
hard at work. You need the you need the
hard work. Often it's helpful to have
some domain expertise, but you know the
thesis of that book against method, the
idea that there's some sort of formula
and to be this sort of pedantic
nitpicking expert makes you most likely
to be next in line for the the actual
next innovation I think is sort of a
ridiculous notion.
>> Well, you know who really put Robert
Temple on the path that he's on?
>> Who?
>> Arthur Young.
>> No way.
>> Yeah. So, so Arthur Young put Robert
Temple on the path that he's on.
>> Robert Temple when he was a teenager.
Uh, he was very precocious and he, if I
recall correctly, he got a um
scholarship and he was a student at it
might have been Temple University or
another university in Philadelphia where
Arthur Young was living. And somehow
they got connected and as a teenager in
college, younger than his classmates,
uh, Robert Arthur Young sort of took him
under his wing and he actually helped
Arthur write the first draft of the
reflexive universe.
>> That's amazing. That's such a wild
story. So for the audience, a little bit
of context on Robert Temple. He's this
amazing also very polymathic thinker.
He's written a few different books. He
wrote a book called The Serious Mystery
actually about um the Doon people um in
in which African country in uh I think
in Mali
>> uh I forget.
>> And they they somehow, you know, in
their tradition knew that there were two
Sirius planets, Sirius A and Sirius B.
Or is it two stars,
>> right?
>> Yeah, two serious stars, a binary star
system.
>> And um you know, astronomy sort of
backed it up much later. And you know
there were they had a whole you know
people that were kind of coming from
that civilization that you know endowed
humanity with arts and sciences and
wisdom and knowledge. But he also has
written an amazing book called a new
science of heaven. And this book
combines, I'd say plasma physics with
metaphysics. And it is amazing because,
you know, usually I open up these books
and I'm like, I'm expecting a lot of
kind of woo woo mushy brain thinking, a
lot of,
>> you know, uh, mutually exclusive things
are true at the same time. You know,
everything is everything style stuff.
And I'm reading this book and he's
talking about Nobel Prize winners who
he's, you know, regularly in
communication with. Goes through a whole
history of plasma physics and then
connects that with how, you know, Moses
speaking to the burning bush could be
like a plasmoid or whatever that's, you
know, kind of a modern UFO encounter.
Um, and then specifically talks about
Cordallowski clouds,
>> right,
>> in the L5 position. and he's written an
amazing research paper as a kind of a
follow-up on this
>> which is this cordallowski cloud between
uh at the lrangeian point between the
moon and uh the earth right
>> and so the lrangeian point is where
gravity perfectly cancels out so that
this like sort of big
>> plasma ball can sort of sit there
>> and he believes that it's responsible
for these long delay echoes these radio
transmissions that were sent in the
early 1920s
uh where you know sometimes a few
minutes later you'd get the exact same
message back that you sent out and he
thought that those messages were coming
from this Cordelowski cloud.
>> He claims that plasma itself is
self-organizing.
It plasma is physical but it's non
molecular. It's really ionic. And most
of the universe is composed of plasma.
Stars are made out of plasma. The large
gas clouds that cover the uh galaxy are
largely made out of plasma, though
there's some what they call dust mixed
in with the plasma. And plasma
physicists have said it's incredibly
self-organizing. So these they're called
the Cardelli clouds. There are two of
them as I recall at the L5 point. They
are approximately nine times as large as
the Earth itself.
They're barely visible to our
instruments because uh the plasma clouds
are um what can how would you describe
it? Are they're not dense.
And uh but he says that the the plasma
cloud can have a structure far more
sophisticated or intricate than the
human body. And he believes they could
be conscious entities.
>> So fascinating. And there are studies
now supporting that where you know uh
plasma seems to cohhere to a human
heartbeat when a person walks up to it.
>> Uh it's almost like the random event
generators where when you look at plasma
it seems fundamentally erratic and
random but it can cohhere almost in an
intelligent way. You can get really cold
bits of plasma coinciding with really
hot bits of plasma. And this goes
handinhand with Rupert Cheldre's idea
that the sun is conscious because the
sun is obviously made of plasma and
maybe coronal mass ejections or you know
cosmic radiation is a way of shining
that int sending that intelligence you
know to earth in some way. Well, the
universe would be 99%
composed of plasma. And for people who
say, and I think it's very credible,
that the universe as a whole is
conscious, that that would be a way of
thinking about it.
>> Yeah, that's right. Atomic matter is the
exception to the rule and most of uh
what constitutes the universe are
actually these charged ions. And then
you get into really interesting ways of
connecting that with your, you know, uh,
survival of the soul after death
research where, okay, where does the
energy of the soul go and maybe it's
around us, maybe it's always surrounding
us, and maybe it exists in these sort of
plasma forms. And when you see
testimonies of, you know, people in the
quote unquote UFO legacy program and
these plasma balls seem to kind of
cohhere and become inert and turn into
these solid objects and then come out of
the sky once they're summoned
>> or certain cases directed energy is used
against them, which is really sort of
dystopian thing to even think about. Um,
it's like plasma can turn back into
particulate matter and then particulate
matter can turn back into plasma. And
that's not even an anti-scientific thing
to say because these are just phase
transitions that can occur all the time,
right?
>> But maybe that's what happens when you
die as you go into your plasma state. I
I think uh there's another wrinkle that
you could add to that which is the idea
of uh higher dimensions of space
>> which uh are essential in string theory
and the whole series of related
theories. and brain theory and so on in
physics all involve the mathematics of
um higher states of or let's say
additional states of physical space
uh in addition to the three dimensions
that we normally experience
mathematically you can go right up to
what's called Hilbert space which is a
space of infinitely many dimensions
>> so I I don't think we can rule that out
either. Although I know Arthur Young,
who was a huge inspiration to Robert
Temple, would disagree. Arthur would
have said that what we really should
look at is a reduction in dimensions,
not more dimensions.
>> I don't know what we should look at. You
know, I think there's some we're bumping
up against our our our limits. But, you
know, Ken Wilson, who was a physicist at
CERN, he had this idea uh called
renormalization,
where materials would go through phase
transitions based on the amount of
energy that were being kind of input
into the material and they would uh have
properties attributed to them that would
be totally disconnected from one another
depending on the energy state of you
know what's what's being kind of you
know transmitted to the material.
>> Mhm.
>> And so you could think of physics like
that too and you could think of that you
know with respect to energy and maybe
with respect to scale as well. And so
you have to wonder what's going on with
plasma you know in um speaking of its
connection with you know possible
soul afterlife that sort of stuff in
Buddhist traditions uh and Shinto
traditions I don't know if you're
familiar with this Japanese concept of
the hitoama but it's these uh plasma
orbs
>> that represent the soul and they sort of
you know go up in the afterlife if you
you can watch like a you know Miyazaki
film like the boy in the huron And it's
sort of this whole actually almost
Pany's Quest style um you know tale of
the afterlife
>> but you see these little you know plasma
balls and these are these souls that are
disembodied.
>> I'm not familiar with that but it would
make sense and I think Robert Temple
would concur. He he has told me that he
has communicated with plasma beings.
>> Really?
>> Yes.
>> He's personally communicated with plasma
beings. He he I did a lengthy interview
with Robert in which he talked about
astral projection traveling through the
universe, but he described a moment he
was flying on an airplane and he said a
plasma being entered the airplane and he
had a lengthy conversation with her. It
was a female. I had some extremely
important interactions uh when I was
flying to Singapore at 38,000 ft or
whatever it was and one of them came
into the plane uh she was a young woman
a higher entity
and um
and she she I was asleep um and she bent
over. I could see her in my sleep
bending over because she's about eight
feet tall. You know, the these higher
entities are always tall. Um, and she
kissed the top of my head and woke me
up.
>> What did she talk about with him?
>> She talked about her relationship with
her father
>> of of all things.
>> Wow. And but so she was just a fully
like disconnected from his own life.
>> Yeah.
>> Whoa.
>> Yeah. That that's what he claimed. And
you know, if it was anyone else other
than Robert Temple, I probably would
have dismissed the idea completely. But,
uh, he's a solid, credible person to my
way of thinking.
>> No, I think he's a really hard-headed
guy. And now I'm, you know, maybe I'm
over pattern matching here, you know, as
one tends to do sometimes with these
topics, but I think of blue beings
showing up. I've had a past guest who
was a construction worker and a blue
being showed up in his bedroom and
transmitted sophisticated physics
principles to him and it put him on the
radar of Eric Davis and Hell Putoff,
people who,
>> you know, whose physics prowess, you
know, is kind of hard to argue with.
>> You have this amazing blue being
experience that prompts you to get into
quantum physics.
>> Because of what this being had showed
me, I started looking into this notion
of longitudinal scalar waves. Now, these
were shown to me by this being as
slinkies, so to speak, that that exist
all around us.
>> You know, he's really interested in all
these kind of non-standard, you know,
extended electronamical models and
speaks about these things in like fairly
sophisticated ways where like I don't
know how you get from construction
worker to that.
>> And so, he's talking about this blue
plasma being transmitting this
information to him.
>> There are other examples of of blue
beings. Whitley Strieber talks about
them. He calls them cobalts.
>> Yeah. Wow.
>> And I did an interview with Robin Foy
who was uh one of the uh people who
organized what's called the skull
experiment in psychical research. It's
uh uh one of the strongest cases uh in
the literature of a an ongoing research
program that manifested all sorts of
dramatic paranormal phenomena.
And Robin Foy was the central organizer
of that. He's now deceased. But he
talked about being in seances where a
blue extraterrestrial being would
manifest. Manifest physically to the
point where he could touch them.
>> Whoa. And these blue beings I feel like
are generally described as good. But I
maybe that's just my own anecdotal
experience. Is that your understanding
too? Like I think of gray aliens and
they seem neutral at best and harmful at
worst.
>> Um and then these these blue beings are
often, you know, I was just at this Joe
Despensza retreat, you know, and and
[clears throat] you know, it was really
interesting. Uh and you know, you're
doing these meditations and you know,
you're tapping into your pineal gland
and in some ways it's like a
systematization of like a condalini
experience. And so I think there's a lot
of precedent
>> for all sorts of miraculous healings
occurring through this method.
Despensza says that in his uh you know
deep meditations, blue beings show up in
the room and they tell him that
the the collective the people in the
conference need to vibrate higher in
order for the blue beings to fully
manifest and heal
>> and and often in these healing these
like kind of spontaneous healing
occurrences the people say that the blue
beings are doing the healing.
Uh it's interesting. I I don't know much
about it really.
>> I don't either. Well, in your anecdotal
experience, is are the blue beings
generally positive or
>> Well, uh yeah, I I would say so, but I
probably say the same thing about uh all
of them. I I can't say that I'm very
knowledgeable, not ever having had any
firsthand experience with any ET type of
of being. I I've heard positive things
about the grays and the mantids and the
Nordics and the maybe not the
reptilians, but I wouldn't uh
necessarily discount them either.
>> I recently heard of a positive story
with the reptilians and I don't know
this guy very well, but
[laughter and gasps] it's like I don't
know you. Well, I'll tell you my bottom
line on on all of this and it comes
through the raw channelings that Bharich
was involved in with Carla Rukert who
published the raw material and the law
of one. I like the law of one. I
subscribe to it and it is that we are
one with every everything. So, you know,
the most hideous creatures on earth or
elsewhere are are part of who we are.
Yeah, it feels like that sometimes these
beings and and I was relisting to your
interview with John Mack and John Mack's
talking about all these abductees and
they're talking about being in a fear
state obviously the first time the
onlogical shock you see a gray being in
your bedroom or something. Then he took
it one step deeper with you and he said
but often the abductee starts to
identify with the the being. A very
powerful dimension of this phenomenon is
what I call the double identity aspect.
When you go deeply into the experience,
we get past the trauma of the
reproductive insults that are involved
here and you come to a place where the
individuals acknowledge particularly
through connection through the eyes
which is a very profound aspect of this.
The joining the bonding that occurs
through the the eye connection. When you
get past that, you the experiencers, as
they're called, will often experience
themselves as aliens. That they have a
whole other identity as an alien.
>> And there's this sort of double identity
where it's like they actually remember
sort of seeing themselves through the
being's eyes or being the being
themselves.
>> And so that's just fascinating. It's
this idea you can sort of port your
consciousness into anything.
>> Well, Terrence McKenna had an
interesting way of describing that. He
said, "We are so unfamiliar with our own
depths that when we get confronted with
with it, we think it's an alien."
>> Yeah. I mean, are you familiar with
cobalistic traditions where often
demonic seeming or bad beings show up
when somebody is sort of seeking some
primordial truth and those beings it's
like the there's a Mozart flute symphony
where um you fly by these demons and you
know you you're playing flute and then
they turn into your angels after you
like get past that level. And so in a
lot of these sort of celestial ascent
traditions, there's seven levels and you
have to like discard, you know, a
garment or you have to say a passcode or
something at each level, whether it's,
you know, Rosacrruianism or Sumerian or,
you know, the heckalotes uh, you know,
uh, in uh, in in in the Hebrew
tradition. Well, it's said and I think
it's true. If you visit cathedrals or
especially uh various temples in Asia,
there are demons guarding every temple
>> and and they're there for a purpose. And
in Buddhism, they're in the service of
the Buddha.
>> Yes. Or they're an excavation of your
own impure motivations.
>> Yeah. And in order to be in the holiest
of holies, the ark of the covenant, you
have to be really of pure intent.
>> And you have to confront your own
shadow.
>> Yeah. What's the the the young quote?
You know, um until you confront your
subconscious, you call it fate or
something. [laughter]
>> I haven't heard that one, but it makes
perfect sense. It's consistent with what
we're talking about that often times and
very often in the UFO literature people
who are abducted take Whitley Strieber
as an example who said he was raped
anally and to this day decades later he
puts ointment on to uh cover the uh
wounds he experienced but at the end of
the day he says it was a communion.
>> Right. Yeah. He is so fascinating. Like,
you know, I know there are a lot of
people that dismiss him. I think he's
extremely high openness. This is the
tricky thing with a lot of these people.
It's like
the high openness is what requires the
greater epistemology and the greater
amount of experience that these people
they have literally like a wider
aperture.
>> Yeah.
>> But then because they're high openness,
they're what I think traditional western
skeptics would also call credulous. So
it's this weird hand in hand, you know,
like one has to go with the other
almost. And so I I would describe
Whitley as somebody like that. And I
don't know if you experienced this, but
when I'm in Whitley's presence, I feel
something. I feel like, oh, you're like
in a your reality is like a local pocket
of consensus reality that is different
than the one I'm normally operating in.
Jeffrey Kriel um who co-authored a book
with Whitley tells about the time they
shared a room together at the Eselin
Institute and uh in the middle of the
night Jeffrey had this experience and
all he could think was oh my god
like this is real and it's happening now
and um he warned me because I have
invited Whitley to stay in my house uh
he said you better
be ready for what what you experience.
And I think uh my philosophy is, you
know, welcome at all. As terrifying as
it may seem, it's probably all for our
good. I mean we we live on this planet
in a in a world where probably 50% o of
the human population are experiencing
terrible privations and misery and
political repression and not enough food
and uh terrible diseases that are not
being attended to.
But there's a reason for all of that.
And I think ultimately that we're here
to know that we could experience
anything. We could experience being in
evaporated in the middle of a nuclear
explosion and then discover that we'll
survive even that.
>> Yeah, that's beautiful. That brings to
mind a quote which is with God all
things are possible.
>> Yeah.
>> What does that mean to you?
Well, among other things, it it could
mean all things are God.
>> So, you think we are uh splintered
fragments of a hole and we are sort of
reconnecting to that hole. We are re we
are piecing piecing ourselves back
together.
>> We exist for the purpose of so that that
whole can come to know itself.
>> It's like an Alan Watts idea.
>> Yeah. Mhm.
>> That's brilliant. Well, Jeffrey, this
has been a blast. Again, I know we could
go for another few hours, [laughter]
but we'll we'll we'll do a round two at
some point. I'll have to come to New
Mexico. And yeah, I just really I
appreciate your time and uh yeah,
everything you've contributed to
humanity with your show, your work, and
um yeah, you're such a a rich kind of
pool of all sorts of amazing history. I
mean, just the amount of people you've
intersected with who to me are like
these, you know, godfather legends,
godmother legend.
>> If you come to New Mexico, it would be a
pleasure and an honor for me to
interview you.
>> Oh, come on. I'm I'm down. You say the
word. I would love to come out.
>> Okay, good.
>> Yeah. No, that that would be a instant.
Yes.
>> We'll put it in the calendar.
>> Oh, man. Well, thank you. That would be
so fun. I don't know. I don't know if
I'm qualified, but I'll I'll try I'll
come prepared. [laughter]
Thank you so much, Jeffrey. Well, cool.
Till [music] next time. Till till
Albuquerque.
>> All right.
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>> [music]
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