Today's guest interrogates the most
dangerous [music] men in the world to
understand how power actually works.
>> The most powerful people that you always
thought were the most powerful, the
heads of state of the largest countries
around the world. There's not one layer
above them. There's two layers above
them.
>> Private banker managing hundreds of
millions of dollars. He left Wall Street
after 4 years and used all the money
he'd saved up to launch a podcast in his
parents house. And the conspiracy theory
thing is such a derogatory term that was
astroturfed by CIA after JFK to make
people not ask questions on things. And
when something is conspiracy laden and
has hardcore evidence, well, guess what?
It's real. Now he runs one of the
biggest shows in the world, asking the
questions other hosts are too afraid to.
Sitting down with cartel cops, [music]
mobsters, and CIA whistleblowers.
>> This guy killed Charlie. There's nothing
else to see here. Don't ask questions
about it. That's weird. Don't get me
started on the white. It was the first
time in my life where I ever looked at
someone and said, "That's not real. Who
the is that person?" This episode will
break down how a banker for the ultra
wealthy became their biggest enemy.
Expose how powerful men become immune to
consequences and ask the questions he
spent 460 episodes never answering about
himself. Do you think Epstein is still
alive?
Julian Dory, welcome to the Jack No
podcast.
>> Thank you for having me, Jack. There's a
little bit of a I don't want to risk the
stolen valor there. I worked on a team
that managed a lot of that and had all
that money before I was there, but I was
wearing my little Joseph A bank suit and
trying to fit in and I was not a fit
over there, but I work with amazing
people.
>> Julian, a good place to start here. You
have one of the top 100 podcasts on
Spotify. You regularly feature spies,
mobsters, government whistleblowers.
In May of this year, you ended episode
417 of your show saying, "On that note,
Jeffrey Epstein didn't.
He's probably still alive." And we will
see you guys next week. Do you think
Epstein is still alive? I think there's
a chance he is. And I did not think
there was a chance of that several
months ago. I never thought he'd off
himself. I always thought he was killed.
But when Andy Booamante got this
Discovery Channel show this year, I
think it was called Conspiracies and
Coverups. He was going to be doing eight
episodes, filming out in Colorado, each
one covering some sort of conspiracy.
And so he was going to do one on
Epstein. And he asked me to come
investigate with him. And he said, "I
want it to be like like your podcast."
Cuz he's been on my podcast a bunch over
the years. You know, we don't talk about
like where we're going to go with it
before. We just do it. So he said, "I
don't want to tell you what part of the
case we're going to look at specifically
for this episode, but like it's going to
cover Epstein. You know all about that
case. Let's go do it." So I said, "All
right, whatever. Say less." So I go out
there and he built this studio down in a
wine celler like below a liquor store.
It's actually like kind of cool. So he
has a whole production team associated.
They're not Discovery Channel, but they
were hired by Discovery Channel to come
in and do the whole thing. and we go
into the middle of his studio there and
he says, "All right, we're just going to
talk on camera for like an hour and go
back and forth just like we're doing a
podcast right now. They're going to use
[ __ ] a minute or two of it for the
actual episode because it's TV and they
got to cut everything down, but let's
just start there and go with it." So, I
said, "Okay." And we're talking,
actually, having like a pretty good
conversation. And towards the end of the
hour, he goes, "Well, in bringing you
here today, I was trying to think about
what part of the case we should look at
in, you know, trying to determine
something where there could be a cover
up or something. Obviously, there's a
lot of cover-ups with this case, but but
something that's just so wild that it
deserves a second look." He goes, "So, I
decided to investigate Epstein's death."
And I'm I'm sitting there like,
"Really?" Like, of all the things, like
this is the most stereotypical one.
like, "All right." There were so many
other things we could do. But I'm like,
"Okay." And he goes, "If you turn to
your right, do you see a door with
caution tape on it?" So, I turn to my
right and right over here is a big
prison door. I don't know how I didn't
[ __ ] notice this when I walked in. I
think maybe they had something in front
of it when I sat down and then removed
it at some point. I look over and I see
the two caution tapes over like the
middle little window spindle and I'm
like that's that looks like the outside
of Epstein's cell and he goes, "We were
able to get the full schematic of
Jeffrey Epstein's cell and rebuild it
piece by piece down to the pill bottles
on the bed. Let's go in there." It's
like, "Oh shit." Okay. So, we go in the
cell. We spent a long time in there.
They probably put 20 to 21 hours of
filming time into a 41 minute cut and
you're in content. You know how much you
got to
>> I mean you're slicing away a lot of what
there is. So unfortunately a lot of what
we did in the prison cell people don't
get to see. But Andy had binders full of
every single government report ever
written on this that was released to
public. That's an important note to make
right there. in regards to the death
itself or the first
>> in regard to the death itself. He also
had the official Bureau of Prisons
schematic and manual or whatever it's
called. I'm not sure the official name
of that prison in New York and a layout
as it's drawn that existed before
Epstein was ever there of what each cell
is supposed to look like. And he had
also brought in,
unbeknownst to me at the time until I
got there and he told me about this. He
brought in Epstein's
I'd watched cellmate the week before it
was some guy who was serving a year for
tax evasion. So they put him in that
jail to serve the time and when Epstein
was on I'd watched like he was there
they have people at the prison that are
supposed to watch you obviously guards
and stuff like that and then they also
will pick some sort of like I guess well
behaved
prisoner to also have like a fifth eye
on the situation. So that was this guy
and this guy was able to confirm when he
went into the cell that this was exactly
what Jeffrey Epstein's cell looked like.
He was like stunned when he went in it.
And so we went in there and we started
with the government's story of how and
where he offed himself
with his bed sheets, the orange bed
sheets that you see in all those famous
pictures. And
very quickly
it was obvious that he had not there was
no way to and and one of the things that
didn't make the cut was we went through
we went to the right side of the bed the
far right side towards the wall which is
where they say he did it and
demonstrated how he would have had to
perfectly
leap off from a crouch position the bed
at a perfect angle almost like a Michael
Phelps dive and he's about 5'11 I want
to say Jeffrey Epstein was check that on
me it's been a while but like whatever
his height was we had his height down we
had a full dummy at the exact height
that he was and in doing it it was an
impossibility even if he were LeBron
James in a 5'11 6t body that kind of
athleticism it was an impossibility
that he could jump forward and and
correctly be able to break the proper
bones bones to off without his head on
the way down hitting the hard metal like
edge of the bed. It's impossible.
>> And he had no blunt trauma.
>> And he had no trauma back here. So right
away there were several other steps we
took in other parts of the cell in case
he had done it somewhere else and they
either lied about it or [ __ ] up the
investigation, couldn't tell people the
truth about it where he couldn't we
determined he could not have committed.
So, so very quickly the conversation was
moving towards well obviously he didn't
he didn't off himself here but what
really blew me away
is then Andy showed me the corner of the
cell
and the and the cell I don't know how
much the cameras can show this but if we
have a square right I'm not doing an
Illuminati signal here this is a [ __ ]
square I'm drawing okay this part and
Jeffrey Epstein's bed is here
the prison doors here. This corner right
here had roughly like a 4x8
indentation. Like think of like an L
where the wall instead of having a
corner, it creates a corner, you know,
like 2x two or whatever. And Andy was
able to determine through the schematics
that two things. Number one, on the
official Bureau of Prison schematics, it
does not show that for this cell and
that this is the only cell that has that
and is not shown on the actual layout of
the prison. and it does not show this
vent. And the second thing was he was
able to determine that it is an air vent
like on the other side. It's just it's
open space. So the first thing he did is
he said go stand outside the cell and
shut the door. So we did that. I go
right outside the cell. He takes the
dummy like if the door is right here and
the L is right there and the bed is
right here. He takes the dummy on the
other side of the L. He has me standing
looking through the window like this.
And he and he's fake choking the dummy
and he says, "Can you see me?" Like if
you were a guard looking through the
window, can you see me right now? And I
could not see him. So he said, "Right
there, you have room to be able to they
could use this vent to get someone in
there." Not even saying that's how they
had to do it if they went to kill him,
get someone into the cell. But right
there, you could easily kill the guy
right here and no one can even see it
from the outside. That's number one.
Number two, we go outside the cell after
a while. I'm like, "Whoa." And then he
takes out all the reports, the DOJ
report, the FBI report, immediately
starts walking me through discrepancies
between the two. In one of the two
reports, I forget which one, they
literally had a picture of a different
cell. And he was able to prove it. Like
they used a picture and said, "This is
Jeffrey Epstein's cell." Afterwards, it
wasn't the cell. He's like, "Well,
that's interesting." And meanwhile, like
I've known Andy a long time, correct?
>> Okay. I'm friends with the guy. I have
told him to his face on camera and off
camera since episode 97 back in I filmed
that in April 2022. It came out
beginning of May 2022. Of course, I
still think he works with CIA, right?
Like I said this the other day, he could
probably assuming he didn't know how to
lie on a polygraph, which is also
possible. He could probably pass a
polygraph if I asked him the question,
do you still work for CIA? Because it's
a technicality,
>> right? The one thing, the first two
times I recorded with him for episode 97
and 107 back in 2022, I remember it on
the drive home from picking him up from
the airport the first time and then when
he got there, he came in a car the
second time as he was somewhere else in
New Jersey. both times the one topic he
wanted to hit, meaning like he was
throwing it out there that he would love
to talk about at some point on the
podcast was the move over the past
decade, decade and a half from
government intelligence to to private
intelligence within government. And what
he meant by that is all these defense
agencies and contractors and companies
like that basically setting it up such
that someone could be working at Langley
on a Friday, hand in their lanyard and
their $89,000 a year salary, walk back
in on Monday with a $689,000
a year salary working for another
company now be handed the same lanyard
and work at the same desk and be read in
on the same things, but now they're not
on the government payroll.
>> Do you believe that? Do you believe
that?
>> Oh, that happens all the time.
>> It logic's out to me. But the gap I'm
missing is like why would Langley allow
officers to
>> because it with the federal government,
you have to report what people are
making in salary. The American people
would not be very happy if they found
out there were a bunch of CIA execs
making 10 million, 8 million, 6 million
of taxpayer money. But if some, you
know, billion dollar contract went to
one company, no one cares how they
disperse that money. It's just a part of
doing business to the government,
>> but they're still loyal to Langly the
training and the values that they
receive.
>> I would think so. I I it may vary person
to person for sure, but in general, I I
I would say that. And it allows them to
maybe operate outside the rules a little
more. So that's why I always said like
he could probably pass a polygraph by
saying I well I technically don't work
there, but you're working there. So
anyway, I say all that on that tangent
because as he's explaining this, you
know, I've known this guy a long time.
The thing about Andy that would always
drive me nuts about him and I would ri
him about it all the time is he never
saw a conspiracy or a government [ __ ] up
that he couldn't try to AAM's razor
explain away. Yet here I was sitting
with him on his Discovery Channel show,
a mainstream network by the way.
And as I'm listening to him, I'm like,
"Am I crazy or is this guy trying to
tell me that he's starting to think this
guy got out of there? Epstein got out
alive." And so I said to him at some
point, I said, "Are you telling me what
I think you're telling me?" He's like,
"What do you mean?" I'm like, "You, Mr.
like anti-conspiracy, nothing to see
here, don't worry about it. I work for
the government. Are you suggesting that
he may have gotten out of here alive?"
And I'm going to paraphrase what he
said, but he didn't say yes. He just
said, "Listen, man. I go where the
evidence leads me." And that's why I
brought you in here, cuz the evidence is
looking really interesting
>> about that scenario. And then there was
one point, and I think this was off
camera. Can't remember if this was on or
off camera,
but the ease with which he described a
mission like this going down to get this
guy out of this prison. So, he's like,
"Oh, it's so easy. Three-man job.
Threeman job. And two people told to not
say anything. Easy drive." And one of
them's the driver outside, one of them
someone who works in the prison, the
other's the inside man. Within two
minutes, he walked me through step by
step how you would do it as if he was
replaying things in his head that
happened in other countries. And then I
think to myself, well, this is New York
City. This is America. How could that
happen? He's like, easy.
>> To you, what's the single most
convincing piece of evidence that he is
still alive? Epstein.
>> The vent.
The vent that
that's right there would suggest it
makes more sense to me based on what we
were looking at. First of all, we we I
can now fully rule out that he offed
himself. I never thought he did. I never
even thought it was really a remote
possibility, but I had to say, well, I
guess it's a 01% chance, 0% chance that
he offed himself. Now, you get to murder
or got out.
I like to be more conservative and say
like, well, the more likely scenario is
murder. The reason that I think this is
such a tossup is because that vent makes
way more sense to be able to hide
someone for if you needed to 3 days, but
at least a short period of time to be
able to then move them out of there in
something like a laundry cart.
>> So, there's a vent that Epstein could
fit within inside of his cell that
wasn't inside of any of the other cells
in the prison.
>> That's right. And it wasn't on the
Bureau of Prison schematic. This was my
reaction, too. Yeah.
>> So, what what schematic had that fit?
>> There was no schematic that had it that
has been released publicly,
>> right?
>> So, that's a scoop.
>> That's a big scoop. And like he built
this cell, like I said, down to the
detail. The pill bottles were that you
see in the pictures that were on the
they were all in like the same spot, you
know? And we're talking about a guy,
this gets ignored. He had a yellow
notepad with a full escape plan and
everything writing down countries,
names, places, and he has all the
pictures of it
>> where
>> he had it in the cell. This was not a
man who was that was another thing.
>> He had an escape plan written down in
the cell.
>> Yeah.
>> Did it have a vent on It was it was like
I I hate to give Jeffrey Epstein any
kind of credit, but it was like watching
an ADHD very high functioning mind
jot out ideas. It looks like Heath
Ledger's Joker diary, but it's
brilliant. Similar vibes with with the
Epstein thing. Like he it's like a full
I mean you could do a full investigation
just on what he wrote on that pad. But
the guy who was in his cell with him,
Bill Mercy, Bill always said 100%
Jeffrey Epstein. Oh, he said he was
depressed, the whole bit. Yeah, I know
people love to say he didn't. 100% he
did. And they showed a little bit of it
on camera of what they got, but the
whole crew told me about that cuz I
wasn't there when he was. He was there
the week before me. the whole crew,
including the girl who picked him up
from the airport and talked with him for
an hour where he was like, "Oh, yeah, he
totally the whole bit." He was shook
when he left the cell once Andy had
taken him into the rebuilt cell and he
looked at everything that went through
everything and he said, "I really got to
reconsider this." Then he pops up on TMZ
like a week after the episode comes out
and he's like, "No, I I'm like, that's
kind of weird. I can tell you what was
told to me
is he did not walk out of there thinking
that that day. Now maybe, you know, he
goes home and he starts to be like, "Ah,
I'm just seeing things." That's
possible. That's I I don't I've never
talked with the guy in my life. I don't
know him. I you know, I don't know who
talks to him. I have no idea. And I
don't want to run with things that I
don't know or have no proof of. It was
just like a little strange. They like
went on TMZ and suddenly was like,
"Yeah, yeah, no. I still think he
killed."
>> I don't have any evidence personally.
Uh, I'm not too familiar with like the
schematics of the cell and all the
details surrounding what would make him
be alive, but I am familiar with like
the messaging I remember at the time
which was it was a the biggest meme on
the internet and I say meme but like it
was just a saying that everyone repeated
like Epstein didn't delete himself, you
know, and then there was a huge argument
around that and then now it's like a
question of is he alive or did someone
like strangle him or kill him like
you're saying. And what I've noticed is
being pushed really hard on social media
is like this Palm Beach Pete guy. Have
you seen this?
>> It's really strange. Yeah, he's very
strange. I'm Palm Beach Pete and I look
like the world's most notorious.
Here's a piece of pizza. He's such a
weirdo.
>> Do you think people are interested in
that or do you think that's being pushed
to distract?
>> Some of it's being pushed. He's doing
some things on purpose like
>> eating the slice of pizza in the
kitchen. I'm like, "Yeah, that's going
to help, you know, dearest out there." I
I I really don't love paying attention
to the guy. I did have Matan on who did
a hilarious interview with him and, you
know, we talked about that a bunch
there, but like the the guy I I think
the guy's just a weirdo. I I don't I
don't think he's Epstein, you know, like
and that's the thing.
>> It's shocking how many people think he
is.
>> Yeah. Well, people are like, you know,
if the elites have like this face
transplant thing down, I was unaware
that's like a thing. But if they do, I
don't know if he got a face transplant.
Like, if I'm Jeffrey Epstein, I'm asking
to be a [ __ ] Asian. I'm not saying
like, "Yo, remove me five tints from
where I am and make me like a little
gayer." Like, that's not what [laughter]
I'm doing. I'm like, "Make me an Asian.
[ __ ] Make me black. Do something." You
know? Like I'm not I'm not trying to be
like a doppelganger of me. That's that's
just I don't know. I never went for a
face transplant, but that's just how I
see it.
>> All right. So, imagine you need
financial advice and you ask your buddy
who lives with his parents and regularly
talks about how he just hit a parlay and
has inside info about prediction
markets. Like, why would you do that?
This guy can't even manage his own money
and you're asking him about investing.
There's a reason you wouldn't ask
someone broke to handle your finances.
Just like there's a reason that Morgan
and Morgan is America's largest injury
law firm, not all law firms are the
same. Hire the wrong one and you might
be beat before you even start. Morgan
and Morgan has been fighting for the
people for over 35 years. They've
recovered over $30 billion for their
clients. And hiring them is like hiring
your own army to go into battle for you.
They've got over a thousand lawyers with
a 100 offices nationwide. If you're
injured by someone else's negligence,
you deserve to be paid. And their fee is
free. unless you win. So if you're ever
injured, you can check out Morgan and
Morgan. For more information, you can
just go to forthepeople.com/jackneil
and see if you have a case. Again,
that's forthepeople.com/jackneil.
But anyway, guys, back to the podcast.
On that, you once on your show had a
guest tell a story of how the CIA's
disguise chief briefed President Bush,
who had known her for years,
>> Jonah Mendez. Yeah.
>> Through a full face mask and Bush had no
idea.
>> And this is in like 1989, 1990.
>> Yeah.
>> If you could paint the picture for me,
like if Epstein is alive, how could
something like that work? Like the
disguise, the passports, the banking
system, how could Epstein be walking
around right now without anyone knowing
it's him?
>> Well, that's another thing. It's like,
does he just walk around with a mask
every day? Because if they were that
good in 1989, I got news for you.
They're pretty [ __ ] great at it now.
You know, I I I I don't that's that's
way above my pay grade as they say. I
don't know. But
>> like from what Andy said to you from
that conversation you had,
>> Andy didn't talk really about the
aftermath other than getting him out of
there.
>> The aftermath is the one the one thing
that Andy and Andy has a way with words
with this stuff that sometimes
frustrates you, but you're like, damn.
The one thing he said, cuz that was a
weird day we filmed. It was the day the
Iran war broke out at the end of
February.
>> And so I walk in there like, "What the
fuck?" It was early shoot. We were
filming at like 8:00 a.m. local time or
7:30. It's like, "Yeah, man.
>> There's two really life-changing days at
CIA. The day you figure out how the
world really the the day they tell you
how the world really works and then the
day you figure out how you're supposed
to act in it with CIA." He said, "That
first day is a really tough day." and he
was talking about the conversation was
in the context of like you know some of
the elite families the Rockefellers
stuff like that and he's like yeah of
course those there there's a shadow
group of people that have all the
influence you don't you don't even see
their money half the time
>> or or all the time and I do think a lot
of people including myself have to say
that woke up to that a little more when
they released some trunch of the files
of the Epstein files this year because
there's still things you speculate on
because it's not proof of this, this, or
that, but it's like, well, that doesn't
look good. And then there's other things
where it's like, no, this is this is
pretty clear. Like, all these people are
working.
They're all mentioning the Rothschilds,
for example, by name, the Rockefellers
by name, and it's like, wow, maybe these
families have some [ __ ] influence
that we don't get to vote on. It's kind
of interesting to me, you know? I'm I'm
a I'm a real populist in that respect. I
I don't think any of that should happen.
And I think pretty much every person out
there who's normal would agree with me
on that. So,
>> do you think Epstein was the most
powerful man in the world?
>> No. No. No. No. No. No. He was powerful.
But I actually think Tucker Carlson
really nailed it early on when the files
came out where he talked about how this
painted a picture of what he called the
Supra government to him. Su P R A. And
it's perfect. And I actually have a good
visual for it too that I thought of that
I think helps bring it home. But he's
like the most powerful people that you
always thought were the most powerful
people, say the heads of state of the
largest countries around the world,
they're really on the third layer.
There's not one layer above them.
There's two layers above them. H
>> the layer above them is a fixer class of
wealthy billionaire types and espionage
types like the Epsteines of the world
who make a lot of money, do a lot of
shady [ __ ] and tell the lower class of
the heads of state and those types of
people what to do and manage them for a
number one class of people that you
don't see who have all the money and
move all the assets and decide who gets
to die. And I think he nailed that. I
think I think Tucker cooked there. And
the way I would liken it is Jeffrey
Epstein was Mike Trout. If you watch
Breaking Bad, Mike Trout shows up and
Walter White thinks he's the most
powerful thing cuz he's the cook and he
makes all this [ __ ] and he makes it rain
and all the money and he sits there and
[ __ ] [ __ ] and moans to Mike Armen
Trout who stands there like this for a
while and then eventually when he gets
annoyed enough he [ __ ] slaps the [ __ ]
out of Walter White and reminds him who
he is and gets back in his [ __ ]
Toyota or whatever the [ __ ] it was he
drove Lincoln Town Car and drives to the
real person who's behind the scenes who
controls everything which is your Gus
Frings of the world. That's the example.
You know, you thought,
you know, the Trumps, the Bidens, the
Obamas, the Bushes were that Gus Fring.
They're they're Walter White. They're
bought and paid for. Now, people are
like, "So, they have zero power." I
don't agree with that. They do have
power. I I I think it's a balance like
anything. But the idea
that those guys could sit in their Oval
Office and actually make every decision,
they may think they are sometimes, but
many things happen outside them by
forces that existed before they were
born in some cases and are going to
exist long after they're dead. I think a
question people often don't ask about
Epstein because it's almost taboo to
even question it is if he was involved
in this maybe second layer of people and
he was killed or did have these federal
charges brought against him in the first
place. Would you classify this as like
he pissed someone off in that group or
would you classify this as uh theater?
Maybe it's both. Maybe it's both. I
think that's a really good, really great
question right there because Jeffrey
Epstein got on his plane and flew from
Paris to here. I check me on this. I
think Paris is one of the countries we
have some issues with extradition on. By
the way, it's not like the easiest. So,
he flew out of a country where he has a
place in Paris. who's outside the United
States and decided to get on his jet and
fly back to Teter Barber airport,
which means he did not think, know, or
have any idea that he was getting
arrested when he landed and they got
arrested. That doesn't happen to people
like him. That that happens to President
Devante. That happens to the [ __ ]
you know, happens to you and me if we do
something bad. That don't happen to
someone like him. But obviously,
something did happen there. The strange
part is
I know he got careless with some things
in his career for sure
career his [ __ ] existence
[sighs]
but the idea [snorts]
and I guess we don't know yet if he did
or didn't but you would think by this
point you'd know. The idea that he
didn't have a really [ __ ] good dead
man switch is something I think about a
lot. It's like that doesn't really add
up to me. This is a guy who if if we
were sitting in his house right now in
[ __ ] 1999 or something, the [ __ ]
pen on the table has a camera in it. I
mean, the the the blades of his carpet
have cameras in it. You're telling me he
don't have compromat on [ __ ] a lot of
people?
I don't buy that. And so, it's a great
question. I don't have an answer for
you. I it could be that mix of both. I
don't know. One possibility is that it's
all theater and in that possibility,
yes, he's alive. That's the only way
that makes sense. When you think about
the
first, second, third order effects of
the story, the theater, what might it
be?
Just want to stress test that a bit. I
haven't thought about this. Here's how I
think of Epstein.
You seen those videos on social media
where it's like you see the side of an
embankment and it's close up. It's one
of those satisfying videos, right? And
there's like a long weed right there or
something stuck in the side and
someone's like pulling on it, yanking
it, and you're like, "Why? Ah, [ __ ]
It's 2 a.m. Why am I watching this?" All
right, let's get put it on 2.0 speed.
They're pulling. They're trying to go
and and the more they pull, you see a
little trickle of water coming out and
it gets a little bigger, a little
bigger, a little bigger. And then
suddenly, boom, they pull it and it goes
and the water goes everywhere like a dam
just broke. I think Jeffrey Epstein's
that weed.
I don't think he's the water. I think
he's that weed. I think he's just the
first one that we can really
have a grip of some of the sadistic [ __ ]
that he was involved in, that he got
other people involved in. That is a real
underbelly of society in this country
and around the world to where if you
pull more and more and more and more and
more,
maybe you actually figure out the whole
game. Cynically, I don't think we'll
ever figure out the whole game,
>> right?
>> Because the game would be over or it' be
different.
>> Be over. Yeah. But I will say this, you
know, I'm an optimist. I love living in
this country for all its flaws. I think
it I think it's amazing place. This is a
beautiful little view you got here as
well, up on the 58th floor, seeing the
whole Manhattan skyline. Like, it's
amazing. You look at something like
this, it's complicated. I always talk
about this. All those [ __ ] buildings,
most of them went up with the permission
and assistance of no-show jobs of the
Italian-American mafia. You know, they
weren't good people. But it's
interesting, you know, it's like the
dichotomy of the strangeness of the
American dream and all that. But like I
love living here. I I I think there's
way more good in humanity than there is
bad.
>> I agree.
>> I think that there's there's a rot in
all places some way. And and I think
it's particularly gnawing when the rot
involves elite people who had the the
most opportunities in life, the best
educations,
all that stuff, and decide to spit in
your face and tell you how things are
going to go. But
I do caution people like all these
people talk about the civil wars and
[ __ ] like that and I hate that stuff.
Like those are big terms. You should
not. People throw that around and I I
have always talked that down and been
like, "Stop. Stop. Don't put that stuff
in the universe."
What I will say, and I don't say this to
be hypocritical, I just say it to be
self-aware, is
if people for some reason have
think they've watched enough Netflix and
lived in enough just basic comfort of
roof over their head, running water, and
you know, not running outside and
getting, you know, mauled by a bear and
whatever in the comfortable society we
now live in to some extent in 2026. to
those people who think that because of
all that stuff, things couldn't get so
bad at this point
such that something like a French
revolution could happen. I would caution
them to remove that assumption because
the fact of the matter is human nature
does not change and mobs can rule
sometimes. If you want to see a small
effect of that, go look at some cities
in June 2020. It was kind of interesting
out here, you know, and I remember my
friend Matt Kamina said all the way back
in episode 43 in my of my show. He's
like, "When inflation's at 10 to 15%,
just talking about money in this case,
forget all the other stuff. When
inflation's at 10 to 15%, people are
mad. Even if they don't know what
inflation is, they can feel it. When
inflation's at 40 to 50%, people are in
the streets." He's like, "You don't want
to test that."
And I think that we're living through
such a strange social, cultural,
economic, political time to where
they're all a meshed together and
there's a lot of the rot being exposed
cuz people have access to things like
this and messaging and real information,
fake information, and the mix of the
noise of everything that if certain
opportunities continue to get less and
less and things like say the middle
class continue to be shrunk and shrunk
more and people start to not see the
modum or the the prime example of what
the American dream was. Wife, family,
kids, yard, fence. You're not going to
be saying, "Well, hello, welcome to
Walmart." when you're 95. Like, that's
the simple thing. Not everyone has huge
dreams like you and me, Jack. And that's
fine. I, in fact, the average person
does not. They just want the basic
things in life and to do a job they
enjoy. the more they see those
opportunities shrink and the more we
continue to go down this pathway of
making it an economic decision as to
whether or not to have a [ __ ] child,
>> which is a real problem.
>> Yeah, that yeah, something bad could
happen and I don't want to see that. I
want to be a part of the solution in my
little corner of the internet and hope a
lot of people join me there. Right. But
>> you're someone that's had conversations
around the rise and fall of empires,
>> right? Does it benefit the ruling class
to have an empire collapse?
Oh, like who benefited most when Rome
fell? Maybe.
>> Well, that's the thing. And this is
where I'd want to get like told in stone
in here, like a real expert on that to
really cook and make sure I get it
right. I don't want to get it wrong.
Like I'm a fan of that stuff, but I'm
not an expert on it. I don't know the
answer to that question. Maybe some
people, you know, like the rat lines of
the Nazis, if you will, were able to
live a good life after that with money
and, you know, just enjoy the chaos. I I
maybe, but I would think my instant
reaction would be that they weren't too
happy that it fell. They got complacent
and they thought we can do whatever we
want. We can [ __ ] over whoever we want
and what are the plebs going to do about
it? And then
they found out and maybe they found out
in in the form of society crumbling so
much that
their borders were vulnerable, their
military was vulnerable, and other
conquerors who were more hungry could
come in and take advantage of the
situation, which is how a lot of these
things end. So, it's a very good
question that I'm not entirely sure the
answer to, but I guess those are the
possibilities.
>> That's interesting. Yeah, I think the
way humans operate in general, we're
kind of designed for
some of us to be so greedy that every
empire collapses inevitably, you know,
and that's
>> really one of the main things that leads
to it. But I do want to um
pull back on
like you're someone that's sat down with
various victims of Epstein and we said
something along the lines of it's all
theater and to someone like me who
hasn't met a lot of people associated
with Epstein or like talked to like any
of his victims. It's like it's like is
this guy even real? You know, but like
you're someone that
>> knows that's the case. episode 394 and
398, you had a woman named Lisa Phillips
on your show,
>> a survivor of the many crimes of
Epstein. What was the most disturbing
thing she told you about Epstein?
>> His eyes,
the way he looked when he was doing it.
There was no
He was the worst kind of sociopath. He
was the one that could feain empathy but
feel none of it.
I hope I'm saying that right. So, if I
didn't do her justice, I apologize. But
the way when he was first attacking her
on she was attacked on the island for
the first time,
the ease and the total
obviously in a completely sick sadistic
way for the love of the game. He was
just doing it so so he could that really
stuck with me. And I had heard that
before secondhand from other victims. It
I don't know. It's a little different
when you're hearing it from someone who
lived it,
>> right?
>> And you're sitting with him like this.
But yeah, the ease with which he would
do it. And she described his eyes as
demonic. I'm, you know, I'm not like a
I'm personally not an organized religion
guy and I'm not one of these, you know,
spirits everywhere kind of guy. It's
just not me. other people feel that way.
But, you know, there there's there are
some people who
whether or not they're born more
predisposed to it or not, I'd like to
think they're not born evil, but they
develop that and they really are
the full image of evil. And he without a
doubt was that. And
unfortunately when it came to all the
corrupt things he did around obviously
all the trafficking and horrible abuse,
he he was a guy who was obviously
effective at his job and that gave him
more and more access to
abuse the most vulnerable people,
>> kids. So,
do you think
he saw himself as
I don't know how to word this properly,
but like
this type of abuse perhaps? Was that his
main priority or do you think his main
priority was money, something else?
Like, do you think that's just in with
the behavior?
>> I don't know. Yeah,
>> I don't know.
>> I we're we can review some of the tape.
We have a Jeffrey Epstein and some
really way smarter psychologists than me
can really paint a a picture. I don't
think he was dumb. There's people who
love to say this guy wasn't particularly
intelligent or whatever.
I think that's a mistake. I think I
think the guy I've
forget all the evil [ __ ] he did. I'm
saying like from an intelligence
perspective of like what can you do and
how can you process people and things
and business and stuff. I've known
people like him
>> especially when they got that, you know,
kind of Coney Island accent or whatever.
It puts people at ease. There's
something in the average person,
especially people that run in high
circles that they're like, "Ah, yeah,
this [ __ ] guy." And then you're with
him for a half hour, an hour, an hour
and a half, two hours, and suddenly
you're like, "Woo, I really
underestimated this person. He's he's
clicking." It's not always like, "Oh,
would this guy get a 1600 on the
two-part SAT?" That's not what I mean.
You know, that's not that's not
intelligence is a lot is a combination
of a lot of things and there's different
planes of it. And I think Jeffrey
Epstein
I think he was better at some financial
things than people want to give him
credit for. Unfortunately,
I do think when he talked about science,
he would
>> he wasn't dumb, but he would
[clears throat] try to impress people
and he would he'd be a charlatan and
overshoot his actual intelligence on
some of it. That doesn't mean he didn't
click on some other things with it, but
I think there's good evidence for that.
But I also think he unfortunately had a
really
keen
feel for
human weakness and
[sighs and gasps]
he knew how to manipulate
in unbelievable ways. One of the things
Lisa told me that was like whoa was
he would send her on meetings, you know,
for jobs
in often times like in LA
where the expectation would be she'd be
when she was there. He was sending her
to he was trafficking her to other
people under the guise of you're going
to get this job and he would expect her
to be abused by them. And she said that
when she would leave these meetings, cuz
she said in most of those meetings she
was not.
And she said no matter what when she
left them, he would call her and he
would be frantically asking her what
happened. And when she would be like,
"No, we didn't hook up or anything like
that." Cuz that's how she'd put it. He'd
be like, "What? Why not?" And he would
just ask her every question about every
step of what happened along the way. And
as she's explaining this to me, I'm
like, "Oh my god,
this guy was studying situations like
that the way Bill Bellichic and Tom
Brady would study tape of defenses.
Like he was he was sickly
in love with the dark game that he was
in." And I don't know that really that
was another thing she said that really
really stuck out to me that
>> he was obsessed with trying to
understand how to take advantage of
>> how to be the best monster.
And I don't know I guess I'm really
privileged to have been raised in a
great home by great parents and in a
great environment around so many great
people
that like that does not clock for me. I
don't understand how you could possibly
think like that. Every human being tells
white lies, does sometimes does
something manipulative and things like
that. I've done that in the past myself.
I'm not a perfect guy by any stretch.
But like
when your whole identity is crafted on
that
couldn't be me.
I think a great lie is that every human
has the capacity for evil. I don't
observe that in the people I meet.
>> Do you think it's
that they don't have the capacity for it
or that it would be better stated is
every human being has the capacity for
evil.
Some just require more of a push. And
what I mean by that is the environment
could push someone to do that. Even the
best sold person born, if that's a
thing,
>> they get put in a worse enough
environment, they'll get
Yeah, I I I think it's probably that. I
think it's probably that. I think that
they have to get some reward out of it
and maybe have some experience with it
themselves. But
>> that's right.
>> On a different note, when you filmed an
episode with former CIA officer John
Kiryaku, there was one email from the
files that left him speechless.
>> Yeah.
>> What email in the Epstein files were you
surprised that no one talked about?
H that's a great question. There's so
many. There's so I mean there's so many.
Yeah. I I just had in Andrew Lowey who's
a great journalist and author over in
Britain who's written a lot of great
books. His most recent book was on
Prince Andrew and Simon and Schustster
canceled the contract last minute when
he wrote it. said it was unreadable,
which is hilarious, you know, and he
just he the coolest dude ever. We had so
much fun with him. But he's in America
right now for a week or two. He was out
in the Hamptons and talking with some
sources while he's out there, too.
And Peggy Seagull be lines it for him.
Peggy Seagull was the PR lady in New
York. And she was also Jeffrey Epstein's
PR lady. And she was the one who was
recrafting him after he left prison. She
knew damn well what he did. And you just
I'm just using this as one of many
examples, but he hands me the paper in
her handwriting with her phone number at
the table. He's like, "Yeah, I was
shocked, too." I was like, "What the
fuck?" She's on emails with him talking
about finding pieces of meat to
inseminate so that he can have a child
with a baby mama who will play ball. You
know, she's on other emails talking
about how, no, this makes you sound like
a pedto.
And it's like,
yeah, I want to know what the [ __ ]
people like that were thinking. But when
you're talking on a on a grand level, I
know I'm going to get out of this sit
down and then be like, "Oh, there's this
one and that one." And I I not even
remember some of the most important ones
on the spot. But the one that made John
speechless that deserves another look
was the shadow commission email about
911. On one end of the spectrum, if I'm
gonna if I were in a court of law and I
had to look at this on a balanced way,
remove emotion from it. On one end of
the spectrum, you could say Gain Maxwell
and I believe the journalist Ed Epstein,
no relation, that she was talking with.
I think that's who it was. It's been a
while, so check me that in the comments.
But she's talking about the shadow
commission that's getting set up for
9/11
very
directly. On the one end of the
spectrum, you could say she's joking.
It's possible. Evil people joke, too.
But, you know, that was the email that
John was shocked at. Cuz I do think as
much as John has a huge bone to pick
with CIA, righteously so, by the way,
that's one that's really hard for him to
get past. The idea that there could have
been anyone that knew something or
didn't stop it or god forbid was
involved with it from that side.
That's a really hard hurdle for him to
get over. That's why like that's one of
the takes that he has where people are
like John. When he talks about 9/11,
he's like, "No, we just really [ __ ]
up." Like come on, once a government
man, always the government man. I think
it's a really hard hurdle for him to get
over. I think the next time I have him
in, I want to talk about that with him
some more and really just not
with an end goal in mind. I just want to
get his full background on how it was
told to him, what happened, what he
thought at the time, what he thought as
the years went on, what theories he
thinks are crazy and why. Not to put him
on the spot, just to let him talk. I
think he I think he's earned that right
from some of the other things he's
bravely talked about over the years for
people to hear him out on that and do it
with an open mind. But I can tell you in
that moment right there when he was
reading that, I've never seen John
Kuryaku speechless. That's one thing
about him. I mean, I've done six
podcasts with him. We've done six
podcasts out in the kitchen before and
after, too, that I'm like, "Fuck, man."
Like, "All right, just get in the
studio." Like, god damn it. This is so
good. You know, [gasps]
he's just he's so affable. the nicest
guy. Answers the phone at all hours,
too. Like just just really good dude.
And
in that moment, he was definitely like,
"What the fuck?" And I'd love to do a
follow-up to that. I haven't talked with
him about that. Not about that email.
>> No. I'd love to see like if he later has
a Bill Mercy moment and is if that's
what it was and goes, "Ah, no." No, it's
fine. That wasn't it. I'm sure they were
joking. I I don't know. I don't I won't
speak for him. I haven't talked to him
about it. But yeah, that was one that's
one I think about a lot.
There there there's many other the
what's her name? Katherine Rumler, the
Obama attorney.
That's weird. That whole her whole
thing. That's weird. Just
>> tell me about that. [gasps]
>> Jeffrey Darling. She's on [ __ ] She
would call him that. She's on What was
it?
9,000 emails with him or something like
that, some ridiculous number like that.
Please check that. You know, and she was
actively the White House attorney
and dealing with him. And then she
became after Obama left, she eventually
became the head general counsel at
Goldman [ __ ] Sachs. And then she was
announced as having been on the
schedules and the calendars and leaked
Wall Street Journal stuff in like 2022
and she stayed on. Like that's the
hubris these people have. That's why
Howard Lutnik, I have a bone to pick.
The hu first of all, the fact that Trump
hasn't fired him. When has Donald Trump
ever been loyal to anyone who gives him
an ounce of bad press? Never. But this
guy still stands next to him when no one
likes him and hates his guts and he's a
proven liar and he h he is so he's a
billionaire. He doesn't need that job.
He has so much hubris or dare I say
under undertoned motives to be like,
"Yeah, [ __ ] you. I'll still keep this
job. I'll be the commerce secretary in
the president's cabinet. What What do I
It's It's that that pisses me off. You
know, I've been telling people for
years, even before I had the podcast, I
had my Now, there's a term for it, but I
didn't know this term at the time. I had
my black pill moment in the end of 2017.
I had been liberal in my life. I had
been conservative in my life. I'd kind
of seen both. I was never an extreme on
either one of those, but I was like very
firmly, there were probably two, three
years there where I was a very firm
liberal. And then a couple years where I
was very firmly like definitely
conservative and then I realized, oh,
it's all [ __ ]
Oh,
>> was there a single thing?
>> Yeah, the Roy Moore thing. The Roy Moore
thing in December 2017. He was a senator
running for office in I believe a
special election in Alabama that Trump
backed
and now it's hard to remember all the
details, but then he was accused of
being a pedto basically. And Trump
backed him really hard after that.
in a full political move and and now you
know this is pittance compared to [ __ ]
we see now but I was like oh
that's weird
and I kind of stepped back and I and I
what really and this needed to happen I
humbled myself I guess I was 24 at the
time on political opinions and I was
like you don't know [ __ ]
you just know that there's a lot of
people in these spaces DNR
who lie about a a lot of things and it's
our job to try to figure out what maybe
they're not lying about and I you know
that was a re 2017 18 19 as far as
political conversations went with
friends was a real take some medicine
and shut the [ __ ] up Julian and then I
would say probably you know before 2019
somewhere in there I started having more
conversations with people like have you
ever thought about maybe this system
just doesn't it's not set up for us no
matter whether you're voting blue or
red. And you know, some people were
really open to that. Other people not so
much. And I don't know, that's that's
I've only gotten a little firmer in that
belief over the years. There's a lot of
things I'll move on and have moved on
based on better evidence. Happens all
the time. A lot of things I've been
wrong about. It's probably one of the
only things in my life I feel an ounce
of zen on. like, wow,
I think I'm over the target on that one.
You know,
>> that red or blue doesn't matter.
>> Doesn't matter is a strong term, but
over the long haul, yeah, red or blue,
birds of the same feather. You know,
they all eat steak at the same
steakouses on K Street. The Roy Moore
was the door opening up of that. And
I've had other moments over the years
where you get caught up in the moment
and you're like, what the [ __ ] is this?
But
yeah, they kind of keep you fighting
over the 5% of things while they're
doing the other stuff. There's a story
I've told a bunch. My friend Danny Jones
did a great podcast with this guy
Stephen back in 2020 at the height of
the pandemic where th this guy was a
longtime correspondent for the New York
Times. And when Jimmy Carter left
office, he became this guy Steven became
the
a bureau chief of I want to say New York
Times South America or one of the
countries. And so maybe a year or two
after Carter left, he found out Jimmy
Carter was coming through whatever
country he was stationed in. And he knew
Carter. So he's like, "All right, I'll
hit him up, see if he wants to get like
a drink or something." And he hits up
Carter and I guess through his people.
And Carter says, "Yeah, sure. So, they
go get a drink and they're talking for a
while and I guess they get a couple in
them and he's like, "You know what? It's
been long enough. He's been out of
office a year or two now. I can I can
ask him, what's it like? What's it like
to come in there and be president?" And
Carter's like, "Oh my god, you have no
it's it's nuts." It's like you just walk
in and you have access to so much and
you know you're suddenly in charge of
like the again the top of what we see
but it's you know it's still a powerful
position for sure. And
he said what did how do you like when
you get into that job what do you do to
like try to get yourself in mode to try
to prepare yourself to be able to do it?
And Carter said, "I called in every
living president and met with them
individually."
And so the guy Steve is like, "All
right, I'll ask. Does that include
Nixon?" And he goes, "Including Nixon."
>> And so he now he's feeling himself and
he's like I'm like I'm thinking, "Ah,
[ __ ] it. I'll ask him who gave the best
advice." And Carter had a real [ __ ]
eating grin and he goes, "Nixon." And he
goes, "Why?" And Carter says, "Nixon
walked in there." And he said, "Listen,
everyone, Congress, all that [ __ ]
they're going to fight about [ __ ]
healthcare, taxes out in the street.
Maybe you can move things 5% one
direction, 5% the other, and tire
yourself out on the way. That's all
[ __ ] The foreign policy though."
No, that's where you got the power. And
the idea was all these things happen out
of our view while we're all being
distracted by something and the real
deals that make the world run that we
are a big piece of as America with the
biggest GDP.
There's some room for maneuvering there.
And I mean we've even seen it this year
where Donald Trump can call something a
military operation and somehow subvert
Congress to be able to keep a war going
with Iran. Like that's just one of many
examples. But that definitely
that that's always been an eye-opening
story to me because that's what we do.
We fight over things. I'm not saying
these things aren't important, but I I'm
a very middle ground guy. I see a lot of
things both ways. And I I genuinely
believe in that universal law of
physics, which you know, don't shoot the
messenger. This is what it says. For
every action, there's an equal but
opposite reaction to create equilibrium.
I like when actions are here, so it's
less violent. the farther they get,
there's a lot of violence to get to
equilibrium. And you know, that's what
they do when they throw, "All right,
this week, here you go. There's
healthcare. Fight over." All right, here
you go. Abortion, go fight over that.
All right, yeah, taxes, fight over that.
You know, and then while we're all doing
that, the 99% of us, you know, the 1% is
like, "Okay, they're distracted. Let's
do the real [ __ ] now." you know, and and
that's why this year has been
interesting because there that Epstein
thing was a big problem for him. But I
mean, I I don't know, maybe they started
a whole war because of it. I don't know.
But yeah, this past
year we've had the Epstein files, the
Aram war, the UFO files, fake. They were
fake.
Last year we had the death of Charlie
Kirk.
>> Mhm. Which one of those is the
distraction? Or is it all of them?
>> I think it's all it's a chain. It's just
a It's a chain. But it doesn't mean
these things aren't real. It doesn't
mean these things aren't actual things
that happen. It's like what's the old
phrase? Never let a good crisis go to
waste or something like that,
>> right?
>> And then when one's like too big, you're
like, let's move to the next one.
Missing scientists, let's go. And I got
to cover it. I got to cover these things
when they happen because they're stories
and I try to wade through it and I try
to
especially when I can't see what it is
yet. I I am not afraid to punt at the
beginning, which is not good for clicks
and not the popular thing to do, but you
have to gather information. You and I
were talking about the Andrew Tate
thing. He's he and Tristan are accused
of some awful things.
Interesting timing with some of that.
and you know them personally. You and I
I won't bring that up, but you and I
talked about that off air a little bit.
And you know,
>> I'm monitoring that situation, if you
will.
>> If if they're guilty, fry them. Fry
them. If they're not, even if I think
he's kind of cringe, and I'm not a
personal fan,
>> being cringe does not mean you get to
have your rights taken away and thrown
in prison. [ __ ] that, you know? And and
I understand
why
kids really gravitated towards him and
and people don't want to look at that
like it you know it's easy to dunk on
some of the [ __ ] he says and some of the
ways he dresses and the stuff he says
and whatever but like
society was emasculating young men for
years and it still happens to an extent
but he was a guy he was like a reset to
the system. I understood where that was
coming from. It didn't mean I there
weren't some things he said that I'm
like Jesus [ __ ] Christ. But like, you
know, they had people believing gender
didn't exist, you know, or that you you
you couldn't go out and use your
testosterone as a [ __ ] 15-year-old
boy. And like, if you had to guess
theoretically, if it all is a setup,
>> what's the thing he said that piss
someone off?
>> You know, that's the trillion dollar
question. I I mean he says a lot of [ __ ]
so
>> or do you think it's the archetype?
>> I that's a better That's a great way to
put it. I think it's the archetype if it
was but it's probably [ __ ] I can't see
or [ __ ] I don't that's beyond you and I
just talking about just the [ __ ] he says
or the archetype he is. What did strike
me great job on on your dead man switch
sit down with him. That was interesting.
But you know I told you I listened to
that on a drive to the shore.
Miss DeF was like, "You gotta listen to
it." Like, just do, you know, because my
my buddy Joey Deaf is with me, is not an
Andrew tape fan. He's like, "You make
sure you listen to that in the car." I'm
like, "All right, I'll listen to it.
It's Jack doing it. I'll listen to it."
But I listened to it on 1.5 speed, which
was definitely trippy listening to that
guy talk on 1.5 speed. But, you know,
and I talked to you about it afterwards.
You said you really didn't have to edit
anything other than the cutins that he
was asking for where he's like, "Please
play that on the screen." Mhm.
>> But that [ __ ] didn't stutter for
3 hours and 21 minutes. There were a few
times where he repeated himself for
emphasis. Thought that was perfectly
normal. He's telling the story of what
happened from beginning to end. Now, is
he telling all of it? Human nature says
probably not. But
if you were doing, you know, these
things that he's accused of,
I don't know, maybe he's a generational
talent communication wise, but that's
pretty [ __ ] hard to do. I've sat
across from a lot of people for three
hours for a lot of years. Nobody's
perfect. And if there's Yeah, that that
includes myself obviously when I'm on
the other end of it with this. there's
some things that you're unsure about or
that you have some hesitations about and
stuff, it's it's going to come out.
>> And I, you know, maybe I'll have to
listen to it again, but
I didn't pick up on much of that there
for whatever that's worth. But again,
like I use that as the example of like I
need to see this play out. I need to see
the evidence presented. Britain has
definitely had it out for him, the UK,
for a long time for sure. Does that mean
they're wrong? Maybe not. But they have
a bad track record on other things, so
you should question it. Again, I don't
care who it is. The ACLU, one of the
first cases they ever took, it was
founded by a lot of people, including
Jewish people. One of the first cases
they ever took was a Nazi rally in
[ __ ] Indiana near Holocaust victims.
Not because they like the Nazis as
clients, but because they understood the
First Amendment right and how important
it was that all speech has to be out in
the public sphere, no matter how much
you hate it, and good speech has to be
bad speech, you know? So, like whether
or not you like the tape brothers,
that's not the question here. The
question is what is the case? What is
happening? Why is it happening? What is
the evidence? What is the proof? How's
it going to play out? Is there a rat or
isn't there? And you know, we'll monitor
that as it goes. Yeah. The thing I was
thinking about the most is why now? And
why did he know now?
>> Yeah. Why? Why did he know? Would you
say you're pretty good at knowing if
people are lying to you? Pretty good.
Yeah, no one's perfect. I'm not a human
lie detector by any stretch. People have
lied to me before, including on camera,
of course. I guess you spent 5 years
across the table from professional
liars, CIA officers, mobsters, calling
artist. Yeah. Like, what's your secret
for that? Like, how do you know if
someone's telling you the truth?
I think freewheeling the conversations
like I always do is a big help because
you I never know in my head where it's
going and frankly near the day they
[sighs]
think the other thing is you just get
people really comfortable
once you know it can be a mix. Are they
emotional? Are they laughing? Are they
doing one after the other? Are they
getting serious? Are they getting
inquisitive? Are they getting
reflective?
And I don't know. I just kind of mix
these things up and then
I don't know. I get into a real flow
state with it. It's hard to explain. You
have to be in my head to do it. And I
can't put you there. But
you have a good feel. Like I said, it's
not perfect. And there's sometimes where
I've w where it took me watching the
tape back when I edited and I went,
"Oh [ __ ] I missed that. There it is."
You know, like
>> that's happened to me a few times.
>> Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. But, you know, then
there's other times in the room where I
know it and then in my head I just have
to be like, now, how do I want to deal
with that? I want to make this
confrontational.
Do I want to let it go and leave that to
the audience to decide for themselves or
figure it out for themselves? Do I want
to guide the conversation in a way where
subliminally I try to get across them
that I don't think they've been fully
honest with me and I'd like to give them
a chance to do that in another way and
save face. I don't know. I don't have a
choice. I don't have a
idea until I'm in the moment and then I
start to process that just based on what
the flow is.
Many people have accused you of having
feds on your show and you've
acknowledged that's most likely the
case. Like what was the moment that you
realized your podcast had been
compromised in a sense?
I don't think if you've ever covered any
story
in the world, I don't think you're
immune to having that having happened,
including when you may never have known
that it did. Um,
I've always said this because I do a lot
of different topics on my show, a lot.
And the vibes are entirely different.
I'm going to have it such that I did
Charlie Kirk, we actually had two
Charlie Kirk episodes last week because
I had Baron Coleman in town for two days
and then we the second one I brought in
Joseph Scott Morgan and the episode
after that's going to be Maton.
>> You never know what you're going to get.
These are entirely different things. But
when I get into some of the geopolitical
range, I've always said I like the guys
who have it on their resume because we
all know that when Andy Busamante walks
in there, it's on his resume that he was
at CIA. We all know he's a spooky person
and now it's on us to figure out where
he's taking the government line and
where maybe he's making a good point and
that's not for me to I mean I can decide
for myself but that's for everyone else
out there listening. I like the fact
that the camera's on them. You get them
for three and a half hours and you get
to hear these people. I've always said I
like them sitting right in front of me
so all you can see them too and then we
can figure out what the narratives are.
But what bothers me is the idea that
maybe once in a while, and I think it's
far less than people think it could
happen, but I do think it's a real
thing, is when you get someone in there
on something that has nothing to do with
anything. Maybe they have a life story,
maybe they have
they're an author, you know, random
[ __ ] I don't know.
And you get that feeling maybe during
the podcast but particularly after that
there was one weird thing that happened
or two weird things that happened and
you wonder if that's like a little bit
of psychological conditioning and I have
wondered that before a handful of times
on certain people and then there was
like
>> psychological conditioning.
>> Yeah. Like
you know how they would have had
trying to I'm trying to think of like
simple [ __ ] pop culture [ __ ] like movie
[ __ ] you've seen where someone's
talking normally on some public platform
and maybe they're talking for an hour
and in the middle of it perfectly within
the context of the story they insert a
phrase
and then someone at home goes, "Oh [ __ ]
that's the signal." and you're like,
"There it is."
Something like that. Little teeny things
that could be like, "Why' they they just
developed everyone's trust because of
this other thing they're talking about
for an hour and a half and now they just
threw in that side oneliner right there
about this other thing that may convince
a lot of people that because I trust
them on all this stuff, maybe they're
right about that, too." And now they've
moved the needle one and a half%.
They do that 10 times on 10 different
shows. they've moved at 2 and a half%. I
don't know, but I think about that. And
then
there was one situation that
Yeah, I talked about it with Mike Ritlin
when I was on a show, but I didn't give
any details and I never will. But there
was one situation where I was like,
"Yep."
And no one Yeah.
>> And it was the rhetoric?
>> No, it was worse than that.
It was once
once I looked into him, I was like, "Oh,
oh, you're not even good at this." And
yeah, I'll just leave that at that. That
was really disappointing.
I don't know what
the plan was there. I always get
skeptical of individuals that go on
podcasts a lot and it's not clear their
business model.
>> That's very fair. very fair skepticism.
I share the same skepticism with you,
>> right?
>> I think that was the first thing I asked
you about.
>> Yeah. [laughter]
>> Uh [ __ ] have I know. But yeah, you're
you're right to be like, hm, that's
weird.
>> Right.
>> You mentioned Charlie Kirk, and you've
done some recent episodes
>> surrounding that case. Uh September 10th
of last year, Charlie Kirk was
assassinated while speaking on a college
campus in Utah. The official story is
that 22-year-old Tyler Robinson did it
alone from a rooftop 142 yards away.
Do you think we know who killed Charlie
Kirk?
I don't know. I'm open to a lot of
things. What I do believe is that the
they're hiding something.
When you look at the decision trees of
possibilities here, I don't see a lot of
scenarios anymore where we're not being
lied to about some form of the
government's official story on Tyler
Robinson went up to the roof and killed
Charlie Kirk with a 306
because he was dating a trans guy and he
was really upset about what Charlie Kirk
said. End of story. Nothing to see here.
Yeah. To quote Trump the two mornings
after it happened, yeah, we got him. So
that's it. Yeah. No, I I I don't there's
there's too much [ __ ] around it.
That said, I do think it's a really
toxic conversation online.
>> I agree. Do you think that's the wrong
question? Who killed him?
>> Wrong question.
Well, what would the right question be?
>> Why?
>> Why?
>> Why? Why then?
>> Yeah, but I I think they actually are
asking the same thing, though. Because
if you're asking who did it, once you
can determine that, then you can
you can get to the why, but if you if
you ask why, then you can also get to
the who. It's like, you know, who's on
first kind of thing. Like, I I I don't
know. Like, I see what you're saying,
but
I don't know. That one really spooks me
out. And I had, you know, we hadn't
covered it a ton on the show. I think
Clint Russell talked about it for about
15 minutes when Allessie came up. My guy
Allessie who's worked with me forever,
he lives in Florida now. when he came up
and stayed with me for a week, we did a
podcast on his show where he asked me
about it at one point and some of that
those clips went viral where we talked
about it. Then there were a handful of
episodes where it got mentioned. I was
on air when he got shot so that that
there was 10 minutes there which was
really kind of surreal. That was wild.
>> So was I actually
>> you were on air too.
>> Not live but we were recording an
episode. Yeah.
>> Yeah. It Yeah, I was that was awful. And
I'll just I'll never forget that. That
was insane. But I hadn't gone deep on
it. And then I went to bring on my
friend Joseph Scott Morgan, who's one of
my favorite people in the world, who's
like the preeminent forensics guy online
and on TV. Has been forever. Just I mean
the OG of the game. He covers a hundred
cases at a time. So I brought him up
here. We're going to talk about whatever
[ __ ] cases he's working on. I knew
we'd hit Charlie Kirk. So, we start
talking about Charlie Kirk a little bit
right before turns into a full
three-hour podcast about it. I'm not an
expert on assassination by any stretch
of the imagination. So, with something
that controversial where people are
literally tearing each other's throats
out online over it.
Yeah, that that was my bad to make a
full podcast on it. That was that was
not great because there's details I
don't know that also Joseph who's
looking at 100 cases doesn't know that's
then maybe going to lead to him saying a
couple things based on forensics that
then aren't even relevant which is what
happened and then people jump down his
throat which is totally unfair to him.
They should have been jumping at me.
>> And I unless he had hit me up about 3
weeks before that episode and sent me
Baron Coleman and I'm like yeah I've
seen this guy. I've seen his clips. He
covers the case. He goes, "Yeah, we
should get him on. people are asking for
him. I said, "Let's do it. I got Joseph
Scott Morgan coming in here in three
weeks. Let's hit Baron up like two
months after that and we'll do like a
deep dive on it." Okay. So then this
podcast comes out. I [ __ ] it up and I
was like, I want to get this guy on now.
Like someone who's looked at this every
single day, get a chance to ask him
about it and let everyone hear it. And I
got him on the phone, had a great
conversation with him for like 90
minutes. And I had the idea. I was like,
"You know what, Baron?
could I bring into town for two days and
the second day I'll bring in Joseph
Scott Morgan. And Baron's a a lawyer by
trade. I'm like, this would be amazing
to have like the chief public
investigator of this, who's a lawyer, by
the way, be able to sit in a room with
the forensics guy who's strictly looking
at the investigation, how it should have
been done, what was done, and he can
respond to that as to what was right,
what was wrong, what would be right,
would be wrong that we don't know about
yet that hopefully would come out at
trial and give a full breakdown of like
the crime scene. You guys take it
wherever you want. And Baron was like,
"All right, let's let's hop on a Zoom
and talk about it." And we did
for like an hour the next week. And he's
like, "Fuck it. Let's do it." And then
Joseph was like, "Hell yeah, let's do
it." And so I brought in Baron, did a
really in-depth podcast with him on a
Friday. And then the next day, Joseph
came in and we did 4 hours 15 minutes.
as it turned out, starting with the shot
at roughly 12:30 on September 10th and
we finished with his body leaving the
morg and just went through. I mean, my
god, those guys were turning over
everything and it was it was very
thorough. It was very evidence-based. It
took out a lot of the opinions. I have
never seen such unanimous like just
appreciation for looking at the facts as
best we could towards those two guys as
guests
ever in the history of my show which is
really cool. But that was me also like
hey you know what I jumped into this
didn't mean to my bad let's make sure we
cover this 360 and let the people do
with that what they will. So, after
having done all that,
yeah,
I smell a rat.
Does that mean it's all the way over
here? Maybe not. Could be. But it's
definitely not all the way over here.
And when I say this one, government
narrative is correct. It's not that. And
I'm open to Tyler Robinson having
been a part of it for sure. And and
maybe actually having fired the shot.
Maybe he did. Maybe
He fired a miracle shot, you know, that
somehow just broke the arteries and did
an exit wound and all that. And he
really could make that shot and, you
know, somehow wasn't limping and somehow
had a 42-in rifle, stuffed up his pants
and, you know, was able to make it
across the roof in a military crawl and
then get down in a military belly crawl
and perfectly execute the shot. Maybe,
probably not on that. So, who else is
involved? If he is involved, okay, cool,
fine. Who else is involved? Who else was
there? That means that someone's out
there right now walking free. Who was
involved and why were they involved? Who
did they talk to? How did they get
involved? I mean, we live in a world
where, you know, you're not putting on a
tinfoil hat to say like when you have
CIA admitting like, "Yeah, MK Ultra was
a thing, but we canled it. Get the [ __ ]
out of here." You know, they were
dunking punch bowls at CIA parties with
LSD to do it to their own people just
for for the [ __ ] love of the game,
you know, and like I mean, I'm just I'm
just reporting facts here, just the
facts, Jack, you know. And at the same
time, you have the kid in Butler. Nobody
talks about that one. He he just
suddenly like got on the roof and said,
"Yeah, I'm gonna take a shot at at this
guy."
And that was one of the things Joe Kent
told me that really bothered him when he
got into that position. He was ready to
really investigate Butler and he was
stonewalled from doing that. Why is
that? Pretty interesting. So yeah, you
should ask questions on all these
things. And you know, there's these
weird movements online where people yell
at the people for asking questions. I
find it really funny that all you know,
I I never paid any attention to TPUSA. I
paid attention to Charlie Kirk. I knew
who he was. You know, I I'd like to
think he was a good guy. He was someone
I would always cite, like when I was
thinking of a stereotypical left-wing
person and a stereotypical right-wing
person where I could predict what they
were going to say before they said it,
he was always a guy I would site as
like, you know, and then you got Charlie
Kirk who'll tell you the Islamic
Revolution is here taking over America
and that we all need to vote for God,
country, and Trump, you know, but
[snorts] like I had nothing against him
personally and and you know, again, I'd
like to think he was a good guy, but
like I never paid any attention to
TPUSA. I find political organizations
gay like this is stupid. That said, all
these people that claim to have been
close with him and friends with him, why
are they so adamant
on open book, shut book, believe the
government. This is what it is. This guy
killed Charlie. There's nothing else to
see here. Don't ask questions about it.
That's weird. That's Don't get me
started on the wife. That's a separate
issue that at TPUSA
is weird. Sorry, not sorry.
>> Yeah, that's a question no one asks.
Like, what the hell is Turning Point USA
in the like in the first place, you
know? It's like
>> I know who funds it, who's in it. Like,
I don't know any of these people's
backgrounds. Like, I haven't looked into
this. I think
>> I learned a lot about that with this
case about like how these places work.
>> You know, I always knew I I'm not an
idiot. I know there's funding that goes
into all these places, but like god
damn, they're like [ __ ] meat
factories. Like this was something that
Charlie Kirk started as like an upstart,
you know, whatever 20-year-old who had
some political ideas and then because he
was charismatic and developed his own
movement and was a social media
presence, he was able to grow it. And I
thought I thought that was different
than like a think tank like Hudson
Institute, something like that. I
thought it was like different. Hudson
Institute's like a, you know, one of
those Washington inside K Street funded
out the [ __ ] ass by all these things
we can't see. You know, here's what the
opinion is and now it's going to become
policy and no one gets to vote on this
kind of places. Whereas DPUSA is a
political, you know, right-wing
organization, but it it felt more a
little more grassroots, a little more he
went viral on [ __ ] Instagram and, you
know, used that as a platform and then
now you're seeing it and you're like,
man, behind the scenes it was not that
way. Yes, he built a brand for himself,
but then the money came out. And hey, he
was a kid doing this, too. I I want to
have some empathy for that. He has his
political beliefs, his ideas on the
world. That's fine. You can agree or
disagree with them. But like, [ __ ] if I
would have known how that all works, and
suddenly this guy's paying me because
it's only because he likes a couple
opinions I have. And the minute I dare
to find better evidence, he's going to
suddenly say I'm a traitor.
that I you know that kind of
relationship
that's a weird one to me. I'm glad I'm
not in something like that. That's
taking money from people and then it's
understood that you're going to do these
things and say these things.
I don't like that.
>> Right.
It's dangerous but profitable to take
money for having opinions being a
certain brand.
>> It is profitable. I Baron says he was
making 25 to 30 mil a year,
>> Charlie.
>> Yeah. Now, he had book deals. He had he
had different streams of income. He had
speakers fees because he would speak at
conferences and stuff like that. But 25
to 30 a year as a person as a 32y old
running a political
action organization. That's YouTube
doesn't pay that well. No.
Send me money, Jack. I I need it, you
know. But like
that that was wild to me when I heard
that.
I do own a Honda though, so we're
[laughter] getting there.
>> Did that conversation
I haven't had a chance to watch that one
yet, but did you guys talk about Erica
at all?
>> In the Baron one, I did in the first
one. Yes. In the second one with Joseph
and and him, we weren't doing any of the
semantics. none of the circumstance. We
were strictly doing as it turned out.
Here's what happened at the scene.
Here's what the investigation was.
Here's who was involved. Here's how it
was done. Erica came up with things
like, for example, calling people,
begging for his necklace that he wore
during the shot and it was given to her,
so it was not kept as evidence and then
it was remodeled without the blood and
everything so that she could wear it
around her neck to this day. She got the
microphone and as I said on the podcast,
the bloodied microphone, she put it in a
glass case like it was the [ __ ]
Lombardi trophy and took it to a bunch
of events where it's $10,000 a plate so
you can look at it and cry. That That's
a piece of evidence. She's wearing
another piece of evidence that now is no
longer a piece of evidence because she
had it [ __ ] cleaned and changed. It's
like this when Joseph was here in this
>> the microphone's not in the evidence.
the the microphone he was holding
>> is in a glass box somewhere.
>> She was with the blood still on it, by
the way. At least they kept that cuz
they got to use it. But God knows how
many people have touched it. It's in a
glass box. She takes it to these events
where people are paying 10,000 bucks a
plate for fundraisers to look at a BL
like that.
On no planet is that not weird. I'm
sorry.
Like I shut my mouth on her for a long
time. And Danny Jones will attest to it.
I was on to her from the moment she came
out and gave that first live stream
before the funeral. When she gave the
first live stream two nights after he
was killed, I was on to her. And I I
felt guilty about it. I was like,
"That's an impure thought, Julian. Why
would you ever think that?" It was the
first time in my life where I ever
looked at someone and said, "That's not
real. Who the [ __ ] is that person?" Like
that's the that's not
>> I didn't know who it was before, you
know? I don't think
>> I knew nothing about her, but she came
out. I'm like, that's not
like that thing in your gut. I mean, you
talk with people for long periods of
time. We're pretty [ __ ] you know, we
can pick up on that stuff. And but the
average person getting too. [gasps]
And I felt guilty about it. And then
two days later, Sunday morning after she
did that, I got on the phone with Danny
Jones. I talked to him all the time and
I was like afraid to bring it up.
And then
I was like, "You see that video the
other night?" He's like, "Oh, the wife."
Yeah. What? I'm like,
"What? What' you think?" Dude, it was so
weird. I was like, "Oh my god, I thought
that, too." And we He's like, "Dude,
something ain't right." And he said, and
and I I know Danny's wife very well as
well. She's a friend. And he was like,
Lexi was like, "This ain't right." And
you know, they women pick up on that
better than men do. And she was like,
"This a something's wrong there." And
you know, she's just I'm I'm sorry. It's
it's relevant. She's made herself a part
of the story. She just wouldn't [ __ ]
go away. She And she made it worse every
single time she came out and did
something. She's never ugly cried. I
know people grieve weird and all that.
I'm sorry. [snorts] Seen a lot of people
grieve in my life. Seen some people
grieve weird, too. But I ain't never
seen [ __ ] like that. If I'm wrong in the
future and it's proved, I'll apologize.
But
I don't think I'm wrong there.
>> To transition a bit, you're familiar
with like a scop, right?
>> Uh-huh.
So, I usually do a segment on my podcast
called like this or that where it's like
you like Coke or Pepsi or I do like give
me a word for each name like give me a
word for Putin. But for you, I think
you're a trutht teller. So, I want to
see your gauge on this stuff. So, SCOP
or truth
and some of them might be
>> okay mix of both. Uh the West is
collapsing.
>> Yeah, I don't want to be that guy. Yeah,
I feel if that's the first question, I
feel like there might end up being a lot
of these. I think it's both.
>> AI is taking all of our jobs.
>> I'm going to lean towards truth there
because it's a specific statement about
one aspect of AI, but I with with the AI
stuff, I could say both, too.
>> Women are more oppressed than men.
>> That's I think that's a scout out. Yeah,
>> men are more oppressed than women.
>> I think that's probably a See, if you
say the first one's a scup, you'd have
to say in some ways people could argue
you'd have to say the second one is a
truth.
I might edit that and say young men
>> are get way too much scrutiny as a as
opposed to women
oppressed as a man. That
I feel like that that'd be kind of gay
if if if I made that claim. Just being
honest. [laughter]
Flock cameras are invading our privacy.
>> Abso fuckingutely. But it's a truth. The
SC out part could be that they're a
[ __ ] lamb to the slaughter for us all
to pay attention to so that someone else
can do it without us knowing it. I think
about that a lot. But that's absolutely
a truth.
>> America is a slave to a foreign nation.
Slave is a strong word.
I think there's truth in SCOP in in in
that argument. And I do think that it's
a very important conversation to be
having about Israel and their because
that is who we're talking about right
here and their undue influence on
American politics. I think we have some
blame for it and I think they use the
system brilliantly and I think it's
absolutely
gross and I have
very strong opinions about their current
government and the actions they take,
the ethnic cleansing, the genocide and
the
willful
complete betrayal of of
They willfully don't give a [ __ ] about
what's in our best interest when we're
the ones paying them.
I have a problem with that. Yes. And I
think it's a really important
conversation to have. The reason I say
both is because when people make every
[ __ ] thing that's ever happened about
Israel, yeah, that's not real. That's I
wish the world were that simple. It's
not. Other places do exist. We have
problems with other places as well, but
yeah, like it's a conversation that
needs to be happen. So slave is is I
think too strong of a word, but are
there some serious issues there? And do
I like the term greatest ally in any
sense of the word when it comes to their
government and and its intelligence arms
attached to it? Absolutely not. They're
not.
>> They're not. I'll go beyond JD Vance on
that. Maybe you don't need to call them
an enemy, but they're not an ally. They
don't do things that are good for us and
they try to force us to do things that
are good for them. If you had a friend
that did that, he wouldn't be your
friend anymore. Sorry. It's not It
doesn't mean you'd [ __ ] drive past
his house every night and go, "Listen,
Malaka." You just say, "You know what,
Joe? It's been nice knowing you. I've
had it's been a pleasure. I've had
enough of my pleasure. Get the [ __ ] out
of here." You know, and and that that's
where I'm at with them. And
you know, if we're going to sit here and
call upon the Iranian people to
overthrow their regime, no problem with
that. I'd much rather it happen that
way, by the way. We shouldn't have any
[ __ ] thing to do with that. You know,
I I don't know why we're not calling
upon that with the Israeli people to
overthrow theirs. I mean, they have a
criminal running their government,
multiple criminals, but you know, the I
make no distinction. I don't care if
you're Hezbollah, Hamas, Iranian, or
Benjamin Netanyahu. It's all the same
[ __ ] to me. You're all Kellogg cereal.
It's killing us. I don't like it.
>> Us as in America or what specific?
>> Yeah, it's hurting us. We have guys
dying over there now
>> trying to get boots on the ground and
[ __ ] People in Lebanon being ethnically
cleansed and killed.
I mean, if you don't believe me, take
the word of even the [ __ ] president
at this point. You know, they they take
down the whole building to kill one guy.
Well, there you go. It's not like we
haven't been telling them that for
years. It's very frustrating to me. And
and I and I, you know, I've said this
many times before, but I am not
xenophobic when I talk about China's
government. I'm not rousophobic when I
talk about Russia's government. I'm not
Ukrainophobic when I talk about
Ukraine's government. I'm not angophobic
when I talk about Britain's government.
I'm not Saudi when I talk about Saudi's
government. So, I'm not anti-Semitic
when I talk about Israel's government.
And go [ __ ] yourself if you claim
otherwise.
>> Right?
>> Like, I don't say anything that I don't
say directly to the face of all my
Jewish friends. And I'm from New Jersey.
I got a lot of those, you know, and I
just
Yeah, I have a strong dislike for
Benjamin Netanyahu and the Ben Gavver of
the world and stuff like that. And I I I
don't make a distinction between them
and other evil people in the world. When
you have me defending a socialist like
Mom Donnie who doesn't have any policies
that I agree with, it's not like as
mayor in New York his job is to comment
on foreign policy, but when you have me
defending him because he's objectively
saying something that I'm like, yeah,
no, he's kind of cooking there. You've
really [ __ ] up. You know, I I don't
want to be out here defending a guy like
that, I'm not a fan of socialism. Who do
you think this coordinated push that's
against their government
like benefits? Because you can have that
opinion and it can be true, but that
doesn't mean that there's not a
coordinated push for that opinion and it
helps someone. Does that make sense?
>> Can you explain that another way to make
sure I'm understanding you? Like it can
be true that
I don't know a statement like Israel is
not America's greatest ally could be the
case, but it seems like that's being
pushed because it's so many people
saying it,
>> right?
>> And like kind of like you said, blaming
Israel for everything happening.
>> This is where the
>> who does that benefit?
>> I I ask that question to myself all the
time. Now I understand what you're
saying. I don't know. I don't have an
answer to that yet, but you're
absolutely right to point to that and be
like, "All right, why are they making
every [ __ ] thing about it?" I mean,
I'm sick of talking about it. I'll be
honest, they make me have to talk about
it every week because we have an ongoing
war now that doesn't seem to stop and
they keep doing stupid [ __ ] every week.
But yeah, I I don't I think about that
one a lot. I think about that one a lot.
Like why it's so coordinated to just be
them on things. And that's not to
exonerate them of all the things they're
doing wrong right now at all. Obviously,
I just laid all that out, but like I
think you should question everything on
every end of every spectrum. You know,
like I was saying earlier, the answer is
somewhere in the middle there once you
average everything out. And that answer
does include calling out evil where
there's something objectively evil. It
got to a point I I had to comment on
that because I play things. I'm a human.
I have opinions sometimes. I tend to be
a very moderate person politically and
geopolitically on things. I genuinely
see things both ways. But, you know,
you'll run into these individual
situations where you feel the scale over
time. It's just [sighs and gasps]
and there's so much and you're like,
that's kind of what it is. And I and I
was very public about that in the
beginning of March after the Iran war
broke out. I said, "Look, I have played
this very diplomatically on the issue as
it pertains to our relationship with
Israel to this point, and I have to I
did a monologue on it in one of our
episodes where I was like, I need to be
honest about this just from a
journalistic capacity and tell you I now
have an opinion on this because now my
guys are involved and they're getting
[ __ ] hit over there." And that's a
problem. And it's been a problem. I I
had been outspoken on Gaza. That was one
place where I'd already kind of had to
do that. But like in general, I had to
be like, I really don't like these guys
running this government and I'm not the
most reasonable about it right now. And
I felt like people need to know that
because I guess if you have to take some
grain of salt with what I say, you need
to know that that that is how I feel on
that. I guess my line is like been
genocide. I think that's a pretty good
red line, but that's just me, you know,
like I'm pretty unreasonable on Epstein.
I got a lot of evidence there. I'm
pretty unreasonable on, you know, the
current Israeli government and what
they're doing. I got a lot of evidence
there. You know what? I'll live with
that.
>> Scop or truth? There are demonic forces
controlling the world.
I
>> think it's I I think it's a truth. I
think the scop can be when people make
it all try to actually quite literally
tie it back to religion to make us hate
each other more.
>> I when I say demonic forces, I mean like
literal
demonic possession, demons, forces
running the world.
>> No, I think that's a copout. And I'll
tell you what I mean by that. I can sit
here and talk about how Jeffrey Epstein
had a demon in his eyes as as Lisa
pointed out, but I think people run to
that too quickly. And the reason I say
that is because I think people want to
explain away
human nature that they should face that
we are capable of. I think when you can
just suddenly be like, you know what,
everyone I don't like's a [ __ ]
reptile. It's fun to joke about, but I
think it it's a convenient way to write
off
very real evil possibilities that we
need to consider we are capable of so
that we can try to avoid them in the
future. It is it is a way to separate
people like that from us normal people
to make us feel better about ourselves
and our evolutionary biological makeup.
And I think that's a mistake. So yes, I
think when they make it like they're
literally demons possess it. I think
that is I think that's maybe it's not a
scop, it's a convenient excuse for
people to run to. And I I don't you know
again you we joke about it. I'm not
going to lie. We do. But I don't think
you should run to that. I I I think you
should face that head on. You know we
are we going to say every single evil
person in history was a [ __ ] demon?
You know, was Genghaskhan a demon or was
he just a guy really hellbent on money,
sex, and power and willing to kill
to get all that?
Maybe he was a possessed demon, and I'm
just missing the boat. I'm open to that.
But, uh,
I I think it was actually more the other
thing. I think he was just a really
[ __ ] up human. It also perhaps implies
that you can't get to that level of
influence and power.
>> That's right.
We're what what's the quote? We're all
It's used in different context. We're
all 10 bad decisions away from being
homeless. I mean, I've heard people say
it before where you're all you're 10
really bad decisions away from like
killing somebody or doing something like
that. And I don't know if that's true,
but the theme of being aware that like
if you make really awful decisions in
your life, you could get yourself to a
point to do something beyond what you
think your capabilities are. I think
that's a really important thing to keep
in mind. And so if you're going to overd
delta that by like exaggerating it just
to keep yourself aware of that, go ahead
and do that. That's not a bad thing.
>> I think that's particularly useful
because you're also by proxy tin really
good decisions from changing your life
in a good ways.
Yep.
>> It's so true.
>> Very true.
>> Epstein was a spy working for MSG.
>> Yes. But among other things, too. He
absolutely was in my opinion. By the
way, it doesn't have to be MSAD. It
could be one of their other intelligence
agencies within the country, but let's
just keep it simple. He was a spy
working with Israel. Absolutely. I've
also had to face the fact that he was
more involved with my government CIA
than I may have previously thought for
sure. I think that's a real possibility.
And I think he worked again
overarchingly for that upper class that
we can't see, which includes forces that
create nation states all over the world
as we know them. So he he's a what? Dave
Smith had a great tweet that isn't even
necessarily true. It's just a [ __ ]
amazing tweet after this came out where
he said, "I used to think Epstein worked
for MSAD. Now I wonder if MSAD worked
for him." Like I'm not saying that's
what it is, but like it's a brilliant
way of describing just how
more much more layered we now realize
Epstein was just him alone. Forget all
the other stuff too than we than we
previously thought. Epste's main purpose
was a blackmail ring. Main purpose.
It was one of his core for sure as and
as a spy getting compromat on people for
sure. But we do know he was involved in
a lot of different things. You know,
rape, sex trafficking, arms dealing,
managing
diplomats,
financial bounty hunting. I mean, he did
a lot of different things. So, calling
one the main, it's it's hard at this
point. [ __ ] was he had motion,
you know, like all evil motion, but he
had motion unfortunately on many many
things.
>> Capitalism is a better system than
socialism or communism. Oh, truth for
sure. What we've dangerously gotten
towards right now is corporatism, which
is actually like a weird [ __ ] up elite
form of socialism that's actually
bastardizing away forms of capitalism.
Capitalism in its purest form though is
an imperfect system. It's just the best.
It is the best system comparatively
speaking. Like if you really want to
make it binary here, you know, socialism
or capitalism, give me capitalism seven
days a week and twice on Sundays. But I
do think the people who most argue
against socialism maybe politically and
stuff like that and who vouch for
capitalism need to have a hard look in
the mirror as to why socialism is
catching on right now. And in having
that look in the mirror, they need to
consider whether or not the capitalism
they love is the capitalism as it
actually exists right now. And I don't
think it is. I think it serves an
insider's purpose. And I think we see
that also. Forget economically, all the
socioultural, political things we've
talked about today. It's all tied
together.
>> That's a really good take and said very
well. Voting doesn't matter. I want to
react and say that's true.
[sighs]
This is where I get really cynical.
It does matter,
but it does not matter nearly as much as
they make us believe it does.
So do with that what you will where you
want to box that. But that's what I
would say. It's not again like I said
earlier, it's not like just because the
leaders of the free world are now third
tier instead of first tier and we
realize that with the super government
thing, it doesn't mean they have no
power. They do still have power. It's
just not what we thought.
>> And it's your belief that voting is
real.
>> Yes.
>> Me too.
>> Again, I've lived through a lot of weird
[ __ ] If someone proves to me in the
future it's not okay.
But yeah, I think it's real. I think
it's a [ __ ] up system. It's all Think
about it this way, Jack. They're always
just trying to move outside of the
places when you know you're running for
House of Representatives in a district
that's [ __ ] 90% red or 90% blue where
you know what it's going to be. Whenever
you're talking about some sort of
generalized race where, you know, at
least both sides have a chance,
>> they're always just fighting for that
middle 20%. They know where the 40 and
40 are. Then it's like, how bad are we
going to beat them towards one side or
the other or how tight is it going to
be?
And in doing that, they all do weird
[ __ ] to make sure that they try to win.
I've seen buses bring in people at 7:55
p.m. Legally, it's legal.
you know, to get out and vote and pull
it for one side or the other. In that
case, it was a it was a Democrat side
that I actually witnessed that
personally,
but
I'd like to think there's some of it
that's real,
but what about all the money that
influences it and can lie to people and
can make people People are busy. They
got lives. I don't My half my job is to
like know what's going on. You know what
I mean? I'm in it. like you're in it.
Someone out there with three kids
working a 9 to6 or 9 to7 trying to pay
the bills, be able to put kids through
college, want to come home and spend
some time with his wife, you know, get a
good square meal at the end of the day.
Yeah, maybe that guy doesn't want to go
on Twitter and find out, you know, what
vote went through in the [ __ ] Senate
today. And I don't think people should
yell at him for that. Good on him. But
what that does is because we all do have
a vote as as we should,
you know, someone especially in the
bigger elections when more people
actually turn out and vote. Yeah. It's
not like everyone's informed. You just
hope the averages end up canceling each
other out, which it probably never
perfectly happens to be clear, but
yeah, I I I'd like to think it means
something.
Easy for me to say. When I go in and I
vote, I write in, journalists abstain.
So I don't, you know, as a part of my
job, I don't keep skin in the game. So I
don't have to think about it like on my
end. But the average California, so it
doesn't really matter.
>> Yeah. Well, yeah. For you, it really
doesn't matter. But you know, hopefully
it means something.
>> Last one. Scoper truth. There is a male
loneliness epidemic.
>> Truth.
Truth.
>> Yeah.
>> Do you think saying that makes it worse?
No, because I think you have to diagnose
problems and speak about them honestly.
Just like I was saying about people just
automatically saying anyone they don't
like is a demon reptile or whatever. It
is a convenient way of ignoring a
problem. I think you do have to talk
about it. Does that you say epidemic and
I think that's a fair word. Does that
mean it's happening to everyone? No. But
are did we just live through an era
where everyone from age
let me be conservative about it.
Everyone from ages
three
to 22. I'll just keep it in preschool
and up to the end of college. Lost two
years of social conditioning at various
points in in that tread. And we're going
to see that play out in the generations
to come. [ __ ] yeah. We just lived
through that.
And did that have a definite effect on
social interaction? For sure. I'm still
adjusting to that with people because
people changed. I had a very weird
experience with the pandemic.
I came home,
moved back in on on April 1st, and I I I
was building the podcast alone in my
apartment from March 13th to April 1st.
moved back home to South Jersey with my
parents who lived, you know, in the
woods in South Jersey and just built
this thing around the clock. And I had a
lot of human interaction for long
periods of time because I always did an
in-person podcast. I've been I bring
people in for hours, but I was in my
parents house, dude. I didn't go places.
I shut my life down. The most public
interaction I saw was the [ __ ] waw wa
when I stopped to get gas and food from
picking someone up from the airport to
be on my show, right? Like everything
else was in personal interaction. It was
all normal. Then when I moved up to
Hoboken and I'd walk down the street and
walk by people, I really started to
notice. People don't look at you
anymore. They'll take a little
semicircle to go farther around you when
you go to walk past them. And you know,
I'm like, is there is it me? And I still
I still get some anxiety about that,
too, cuz like that's not how I was
wired. But it's in my even all these
years three years later now, over 3
years later, that's still in my head
when I walk down the streets, it's just
like implanted in there, you know?
>> Yeah. It's like when you make the world
think that if you get within six feet of
a person, they could kill you.
>> Almost like they planned it, right?
I mean, it's like your neighbor's your
enemy. What does that do?
>> Everyone's in their house looking at
their own algorithms.
>> Yeah.
>> What does that do? One thing I noticed
post pandemic, and maybe it's just cuz I
grew up, I was like 17 during the
pandemic, 19 by the end of it, uh was
like when I came home for Christmas,
everyone seemed way more political and
they seemed way more like
that the politics really mattered more.
It was like, "Oh, this uncle is uh
>> voting for or a Trump guy and this aunt
is very woke." Like, it's like maybe
this is just my experience, but it
seemed like a people became really
radical in that period.
>> Like I I didn't have your anecdotal
experience or all the anecdotal
experiences of everyone out there. For
me, I agree, but it happened earlier. I
think Donald Trump really changed that,
>> right? I
saw a wind shift in that dynamic like
I've never seen before
as the calendar went from the end of
2015 into 2016.
>> And by summer 2016,
there was a real labeled awareness
is how I describe it of politics. And
then yes,
do I think COVID and people being at
home and having nothing but time to go
down their own algorithms that were even
more developed at this point to make
them cognitively
find the things they're most going to
agree with. Do I think that that added
to it? Absolutely. For sure. And I do I
think it ratcheted it up another level?
Absolutely. For sure. But I think and I
don't say this as a shot at Donald
Trump. I say this just as a objective
opinion. I guess his general presence
changed
the world forever in how we interact
politically. Like he he was he was a
nuclear bomb and he was dropped in the
middle of all of it. And it's funny that
he's now like become this insider, but
stylistically,
you know, the funniest autistic guy
you've ever seen in your life.
He just totally I mean, you know, you
got politicians going on podcasts now
like saying, "Fuck, it's great." Like
that there's part of me that's like,
"All right, something to show something
real about your fake ass." But
yeah, he he
for better or worse or more likely a
mixture of both in very hard directions,
he he'd changed things there. Joe Rogan
used to have a great line,
and this was back during Trump term one.
He said, "Donald Trump broke people. He
broke people one way or the other, but
he broke them. They either loved him or
they hated him, but he broke something
inside of them where they lost." And he
wasn't saying about everybody, but about
large groups of the population. They
lost any
place of even slight objectivity when it
came to anything he did, good or bad.
And I think that was a brilliant take
and perfect. Kerma shifted the way
politics works. And I it's a mixture of
the algorithms and Trump himself. He was
like the algorithm president. He was
built for
>> this thing, you know. He hijacked the
emotions of it like people watch time.
It made them so mad that they became
interested in him. They became uh
disenfranchised to want to vote in the
first place which influences the
election in its own way. That's right.
I'll ask you this one. You had a quote
uh on your podcast once. You said you
made it up on the spot. If you want to
be a tree that grows to heaven, your
roots must be rooted in hell.
What did you mean by that? Did I say
that?
That's kind of a bar. I think what I
meant by that, I'd have to look at the
context of what I was saying, but in
hearing that right there, it makes total
sense to me because it's like if you
want to do great things, you have to be
willing to go through bad things to get
there. There is no such thing as a
straight line to success or happiness or
anything that is quote unquote green and
blue and all the good colors right
there. There are parts of that that are
going to be red, orange, and yellow. And
if you're not okay with that, you're
never going to get off your ass. and and
do anything worth doing. Whether that
is, you know, being a massive success at
what you do or even like getting a good
job you want and being great at it or,
you know, getting into a great
relationship, finding the right partner
in life to to go about with a girl you
love and that you admire and that you
want to have children with. Like,
you got you got to be willing to try
things on the way there, too. You know
what I mean? Like, regardless of what it
is. And and I think social media paints
this picture
as we've talked about till we're blue in
the face of perfection and people show
the highlights of stuff. And I do think
in recent years there's been better
trends of people showing a little more
reality. I want to give some credit to
the internet for that. I don't think
it's like it was in 2019
for sure. But still there's there's an
overemphasis on people showing how great
their life is and how great things are.
So, you when you started the show, you
had like I think it was 10 $20,000 that
you started it with.
>> Yeah, I I think we were just talking
about that today. I think the equipment
I started with was like $9,000 and it
was basically all the money.
>> But you were on Wall Street for four
years.
>> What did you do with the money?
>> I made no money on Wall [laughter]
Street. Yeah. So, this is a real pet
peeve of mine. When people say Wall
Street,
>> bro, that can mean 6,000 different
things, right? my part of Wall Street. I
worked in the private bank at Bank of
America, Mel Lynch in English. What that
means is I worked with a team that
managed ultra high netw worth
individuals and occasionally their
public or privately held companies
depending on what it was. And the public
stuff could be handling their 10b5-1
plans, which is like handling how
insiders sell options into the
marketplace. I think it's been a while.
or something as simple as like helping
their company with their 401k, which is
a very easy job. It gives you access to
people to become individual clients. But
like in that part of the business, the I
I worked for an amazing guy and an
amazing team. I love the people I worked
with. But I didn't know [ __ ] about the
world coming out of college. It was a
great experience for me because half my
job was to go into that city right there
and meet people and see who was doing
what and who was talking to who and why
and what industries did what, who was
rising, who was falling. And that taught
me a lot about the world. The other half
of it, which was like the financial
banking side, I didn't I was like, I was
good at some of it, but I hated it. I'm
a creative. Like it's it's like telling
Picassle to go be an accountant. Like,
you know, not to compare me, but you
know what I mean? Like it just doesn't
work. And so the way that part of the
business worked, there are other parts
of Wall Street where you come in, you
work 18 hours a day, but you're making a
lot of money.
>> My part of the business worked like this
roughly. You come out of college, you
grind like a dog for four or five years.
Most people don't make it, but if you
do, you made no money along the way here
for the most part, but now you get the
offer and you get pulled into the inner
sanctum and now you're going to make
money. And I got that offer from my boss
who gave me an amazing offer and I would
have had money for my first time. And I
talked about it in episode 16 of my show
when I told my story early on at the
time. I said something like, and this is
2020 when I was recording it after I had
left. I said something like, "I knew if
I took that offer, I'm a loyal guy, so I
could collect for a year or two in
peace. I would never have done that to
Larry. That would have been a scumbag
thing to do." So, I knew if I took that,
I was committing to him for at least
like 5 years. And I said, "What's going
to happen is I'm going to be like 30, 31
years old, sitting crying in my Tesla
and blaming everyone else but me, you
know, and when it's only my fault."
>> And so I said, "No." And I started over
again. And you know, so I never got to
taste that money. But dude, when I tell
you, and I genuinely mean this,
there was never a moment where I so
much, even at the lowest, darkest
moments, where I so much as second
thought that it was the most for a
chronic overthinker, this was one there
were just some things in the buildup to
building the podcast that like for once
in my life, I didn't overthink. Thank
God I didn't. But that was one thing
that was easy not to overthink,
you know,
and I hated doing it to him cuz he was
the man and had done so much for me. But
like he understood it and he and and I
have a great relationship with him to
this day. That's my guy, you know, and
yeah, I just that was not for me. And I
was free even if I had nothing. And
well, I had more than most people. My
parents let me [ __ ] do it in their
house. Could have never done this
without that. I always say it's like
half my parents' podcast as it is mine.
Like I I could have never done that. I
have friends that that wouldn't have
been an option for, you know, through no
fault of their parents. It's just wasn't
an option. And so I I got to do that and
I just pinched whatever little pennies I
had left together and I made it through
the next two years before I started
making any money whatsoever. I literally
made no money. The first time I made
money,
so I started building full-time March
2020.
I think the first time I had any dollars
put into my bank account as a result of
my content was in the region of
September October 2021,
>> you know, and I didn't make any real
money until basically the check in
January 2022 after I figured out YouTube
shorts and was like the guy for that for
podcast. But they I did insane views
that month, but they were only doing the
shorts bonus at that point. So, I made
like 2,600 views today. Even with the
shitty payouts of shorts, that I don't
want to say what the number would have
been, but it would have been a lot
higher. But it was to me that was
everything at the time. I was like,
"Holy [ __ ] they just paid me $2,600.
What the fuck?" And it was just And then
I had just then I could invest in buying
a flight for Matt Cox to come in for
episode 96, you know, like little things
like that. And I was always [ __ ]
myself when I did that, but it just
slowly worked out more and more.
>> Yeah. You said that you spent a quarter
of your net worth flying in Andy
Bamonte. Yes. Which I think is funny.
>> It was $1,000. I had $4,000 in my bank
account. I believe at the time.
>> In 2024, you told a New Jersey magazine,
"I'm grateful every day that I did not
figure out that this was my lane when I
was 21 because I'd be dead right now."
>> Yeah. Do you think you'd be dead if you
started your podcast when you were 21?
>> Yeah, there's there's a slight
exaggeration in there of like death like
on the floor, man. I knew nothing when I
was 21. And one of the things I did get
to do when I especially when I got out
of college and I started realizing maybe
I didn't want to do what I wanted to
what I was doing long term, I started to
look at other things and learn about
other things. And one thing I did is I
I'm someone I never hit a comment
section in my life. Like never commented
on anything. I you know, one of those
quiet people on the internet, but I
would read comment sections and I would
watch young creators and things they
would go through. I remember the Logan
Paul Japanese Forest thing and I watched
and I didn't know much about Logan Paul
before that happened, but I watched the
blowback, the reaction, what people were
saying, how he handled it, all that. And
you learn from those things. Had I just
jumped into that when I was 21, even if
I like had this talent and was able to
do it, man, I was [ __ ]
I was still ret I mean, I'm still a
little [ __ ] now. But like
for sure, but you know, even when I was
25, there were so many stupid things I
did. And I have empathy for young
creators who do really stupid [ __ ]
because people love to throw stones from
glass houses. And you know, you were
also a young creator too do as well. As
far as I can tell, you haven't done a
lot of stupid [ __ ] So good for you. But
you know,
you don't know how you would have been
or maybe you do
at that age and it wasn't good. And you
know, you would have handled things more
emotionally. I'm already an emotional
guy. That's not a good start. You know,
I am grateful that that didn't happen
that young. Now, did I probably wait an
extra year or two longer than I should
to make some sort of jump from what I
did? Yes.
But maybe that worked out well, too. I'm
not explaining that away and excusing
that away, but maybe that worked out
okay. I definitely learned a lot,
though. And you know, I still made
plenty of mistakes or mistakes in
mentality along the way for sure. But
>> what did your dad say when you left Wall
Street?
>> My parents, they didn't know much of
anything about podcasting, but I was
very lucky. My parents believed in me.
They're like, "This is a big risk." Of
course, you know, I was their I'm their
only child, so they worry, but and they
were really worried about my health at
the time, but they both were like, even
if they didn't fully understand it,
they're like, "He's going to figure this
out." And I'm eternally grateful for
that. There are people, not not even
with bad parents, but just with parents
who wouldn't say that. And they let it
happen in their house, which is crazy.
It's very cool. But why, you know, I got
m They didn't even live there most of
the time because my mom was down at my
grand at my grandpa's house taking care
of my grandparents who were struggling
at the time most of the time. And my dad
would just go down there and work work
from there. So I was like alone at their
house a lot and my dad would be looking
at the Ring doorbell and he's like,
"Who's coming in?" I'm like, "Matt Cox,
don't Google them." You know, [ __ ] like
that. Hide the credit cards. Like they
let it's funny now, but like they let
this stuff happen, which is pretty
[ __ ] wild. I was very lucky with
that. Julian, you have a reputation for
hinting that you know more than you can
say.
Answer this however you'd like to.
What's the one thing that you, Julian
Dory,
are not allowed to say? maybe the thing
that could get this podcast deleted.
>> I don't think that's so it's a fair
question, but when I say that, that's
not what I'm inferring. What I'm
inferring is I take it ve and I and I
air on the side of caution. I take off
record conversations very seriously.
That's happened a couple times today
where I'm like I'm not even I take
people's trust with that that were if
that bond is ever broken
why would anyone ever trust me
>> right? So I take that really [ __ ]
seriously. So when you hear me say that
I like that sounds dramatic if I say it
like that. I'm I'm not trying to do
that, but it's just me stopping myself
from going somewhere that someone may
have and a lot of times I know for a
fact said off the record that I'm like,
"Nope, that that can't go here." So,
it's not more than that. It's it's
anyone who's in a role where you're
talking with people who are in the
public sphere in any type of way who
have things that they you know they want
to be able to talk with people
especially if you're friends with them
as well and not be on the [ __ ] clock
and on the mic the whole time and you
got to respect that. So that's all I
mean when I say that I don't I don't I
wish I knew some of the secrets of the
universe. I do not. There's been a few
things I've been told off record before
that I'm like, whoa, you know, like,
okay, definitely I can fill up both
hands, I think, with that. There's
probably been nine or 10 things before
that are like, holy [ __ ] And then
there's a lot of others are like, wow.
But it's not less world changing. Not
that these are world changing, but
sometimes you get some stuff that you're
like, wow, I can't believe I know that.
>> I'll give you two questions to reframe
this. Um,
if you had to give me a phrase to
describe how people in power stay in
power,
>> what would that phrase be?
>> How people in power stay in power.
All right,
ignore the negative connotation of that
right now because there's a lot of
negative connotation with the idea of
power especially today and the people
who seem to be holding it. But the
phrase I would say is
something along the lines of dogged
pursuit or
resilience.
People that just won't stop. They don't
let even bad beats beat them. They don't
die. They Let me give you a great
example. Piers Morgan.
Piers Morgan is [ __ ] teflon. I
respect the [ __ ] out of Piers Morgan.
Sometimes he says some [ __ ] that I'm
like, that's the most [ __ ] thing
I've ever heard in my life. Piers Morgan
has been involved in media for so long
and he's had so many cringe moments or
whiffs or mistakes and a lot of things
he's been right about too. And he'll do
stuff where you're like, "Come on."
And it's just
dirt off his shoulder. He does not stop.
He's a [ __ ] great white shark. He
doesn't stop swimming.
And he's in a position of power. He's
he's a highle media guy. Has been for a
long time. He never dies.
And
he's just a tough [ __ ]
Like there's no other way to put it. The
guy is tough as [ __ ] nails. whether
you like them or not,
you know,
come on my show, Pierce Williams.
[laughter]
>> But I was talking about before this that
that was someone I really wanted to have
on. I was talking to him about that, but
it seems like a little hard to get him
in person.
>> Yeah, he's tough, but would love to do
it. Pierce,
>> the one time I was going to go on there,
I got cancelled, too. Maybe I should
take the message, but I like Pierce. Is
there one behavior you do in your
personal life that other people would
consider paranoid, but you think is
completely justified?
Usually, it's the opposite. People are
like, "Don't you take more precautions
and shit?" [laughter]
Nah. I mean,
I just told someone this today, but I'm
like, "If someone came after me, they're
really going after some low ass hanging
fruit. I mean, they've they've failed at
their job. They they've gone from the
Yankees to single A. So, maybe it won't
be that way in the future, but
no, I don't I don't think about that,
bro. I mean, I'm sure I'll feel
differently when I have a wife and
family. I don't have that right now.
[sighs]
But part of me is just like,
is something that crazy ever happen?
That's a hell of a way to go out, bro.
you know, like I don't I don't like the
idea of living life on my knees. There's
been a couple things before that are
normal that
would come with the territory of anyone
who's online that has an audience that
have been like, "Oh, come on. That's
weird. Don't do that." But it's normal
people [ __ ] Like,
I don't want to give examples of that.
But just like a couple things where I
called someone like, "Are you [ __ ]
kidding me? Like, can we take care of
this? This is this is over the top." But
never like I'm walking down the street
and someone's following me, you know?
None of that.
I got asked that by Mike Ritlin though
one time who's like a [ __ ] decorated
ass Navy Seal. And I was like, "Mike,
should I be worried about something?"
Like, "What the fuck?" He's like, "Well,
you know, he's like the most straight
lace kind of guy to like sometimes."
Goes, "Once in a while you do an
episode." I'm like, "Oh, no. He's really
going for it." I'm like, "I'm a [ __ ]
YouTuber, bro. It's not that serious."
What's one conspiracy theory you 100%
know is true?
>> Oh, Epstein.
It's the easiest answer ever. And the
conspiracy theory thing is such a
derogatory term that was astroturfed by
CIA after JFK to [ __ ] make people not
ask questions on things. And yes, there
are people who say like, you know, the
tile right there is filled with Clorox
that's like eating our amiebas. You
know, I people obviously run too far
with things for sure. I like to deal
with evidence.
When something is conspiracy laden and
has hardcore evidence, well, guess what?
It's real. We've lived I mean, have you
lived through the last six years? I
have. I've seen some things, but yeah,
Epstein for sure. And there there's a
longer list than that, but that one is
just I mean, it's it's undeniable.
>> What's the claim though on Epste? claim
that someone was operating a blackmail
sex trafficking ring and doing a lot of
other illegal things that we laid out
today as well. Serving a source of
wealth and power around the world that
wields
power through money and other means
behind the scenes that we don't know
about and we don't get to vote on.
>> Do you think that's happening today?
>> Of course. Like I said, Epstein's just
the weed. He's that weed in the side of
the embankment. He's one guy. He's the
one we can see. He's awful. He did all
these things, but if you think like he's
the only guy of his type, I mean, you're
crazy. There's not one Mike trout. I
know that made that was fun for the
show, but that was in New Mexico in one
place, you know, for Breaking Bad.
But yeah, the the idea that people like
Epstein and that Supra government thing,
if I want to take it to another level,
exists, absolutely. I think that's real.
what it all looks like.
You know, I can only know based on the
evidence we have so far. And I know we
have there's a lot of evidence we don't
have of other stuff that might make it
worse or explain a couple things that
make me feel less bad about something,
but that's not likely. You know, they're
[ __ ] Yeah, they're just
it's evil. It's evil people, man. When
you think about your last 458 episodes,
a lot of people might not know that you
have a photographic identic memory, uh,
visual and audio,
and can remember things that you've seen
in very astute detail. Uh,
what's something you wish you could
forget, but you can't?
every big mistake I ever made and
reliving I and and I think this is
beyond just having photograph memory. I
think a lot of people out there who
don't have one can relate to this, but I
can remember details,
moments,
and the physical feeling with remarkable
accuracy of big mistakes I made or
cringey moments I've had or things like
that down to details that I would
imagine maybe the average person can't.
And sometimes that like you know
you can't change mistakes you made and
stuff like that but then you relive it
and everyone to be clear that's not
everyone out there listening right now
can do that. I sometimes wonder though
as it relates to the things I'm able to
do with my memory if there are
visceral
putting myself in those places that I
can do. maybe
this isn't the case, but that I can do
that maybe some other people can. And
I'd say that that's not that's not fun
to remember.
Is there something that someone said on
a podcast that you're like, damn, I wish
I hadn't heard that. I'm going to
remember that. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. But
I don't know. I'm I more appreciate the
honesty when I hear those things. It's
not that it would be more like the
phrase of just saying, "Damn, wish I
hadn't heard that." But in reality, I'm
glad I did.
>> You know, Andy said some stuff like
that. He's had some little Freudian
moments over the years on podcast with
that. And he has some that I play back
in my head like, "Wow, he really [ __ ]
said that. He
if he works for the government, there
might be some might be something behind
that one, you know?" But like I kind of
like that I heard that even if I didn't
like it at the time. I'm like well at
least I know that or I think maybe I do.
>> What's your favorite memory?
>> My favorite memory
>> maybe as it pertains to the podcast.
>> Oh, is it? Yeah, but that's so thin. I
mean I have great memories of the
podcast, but like my life has been this
thing for six and a half years and I did
have a whole life before that.
I think my favorite memories are when I
was a like I'm going to generalize it
more. When I was a kid
and I had great parents and a great home
and I didn't have to worry about things
that other people have to worry about
where's the next meal coming from, you
know? So, I think the best memories are
when,
you know, I could have those days where
I went to the park with my mom
and just played and didn't worry about
anything. And, you know, the skies blue
and the sun's out and I'm alive
and I'm just living in the moment, two
feet down right there. I think about
moments like that a lot. And I think
those are probably the best memories for
sure because you also don't, you know,
it's also with people and people aren't
here forever and so you remember it in
the best moments and you try to
appreciate that why they all still are
here. For sure.
>> What's the one thing your mom taught
you?
>> I mean there's not one thing. There's a
lot of things.
A lot of things.
I mean there's so much values,
principles,
ways to treat people, treating every
every person with dignity. Basic things
that maybe some people could have been
taught more in the world now. Things
that sometimes I fail at too, by the
way. But yeah, I just I I think I have a
really good moral compass like and one
thing my dad would always say is
character is best judged by what you do
when the people that matter or no one is
looking. And I think about that a lot.
I'm the guy that when I pass a piece of
trash on the street sometimes and
actually consciously noticed it and take
10 steps forward, I'm like, "Fuck,
something bad's going to happen to me if
I don't go pick that up." You know what
I mean?
Like little things like that. I mean, I
could write a book about that. Not that
anyone would read it, but there'd be
some good [ __ ] in there for sure. Um,
yeah. I I I think my parents taught me a
lot of a lot of great things.
What do you think OCD is?
>> It's a spectrum for sure. It manifests
in a lot of different ways.
Some of it can be lighter. Some of it
can affect every little thing you do. I
don't know. I'm still dealing with where
I have it and where I don't.
But it definitely
affects my cortisol big time. Like I
need things a certain way. And it's
great like working with Allessie and Joe
and Danny and now Amanda on our team
too. Like
they understand some of those like
little like [ __ ] I gota
and they're like okay got it. You know
especially Danny. Danny will be like oh
okay you need that edit six pixels to
the left. All right I got you, bro. And
he's like the sweetest kid about it.
But, you know, I try to be self-aware of
that cuz I know sometimes it probably I
sound like a [ __ ] crazy person with
little things. I'm like, "Hey, can we do
we did it like this? Can we do it like
that?" The average person is like,
"That's the same [ __ ] thing." But
yeah, I don't I don't know. I do know
it's definitely a spectrum, though.
Definitely a big spectrum.
I've always been curious about like what
it actually is. I feel like it's
illdefined. But
>> it is illdefined.
>> You know it if you have it, you know. Um
>> Yeah. Yeah.
Two more for you. Uh, what's one
question you've been trying to answer on
your podcast that you feel like you
don't have the answer to?
>> These are good questions. Uh,
I may punt on that one. I don't really
know. I wonder about a lot of things,
man. Things about life, things about
things that have happened, whether or
not they happen, how the world works,
what's good, what's bad, who's good,
who's bad. There's so many.
I I'm one of those guys that I actually
sleep pretty pretty good.
>> Like I can go to bed pretty easily. I
always got to get up to piss, but that's
about it. The rest of it, like I sleep
pretty good. I got a bad bladder, but
>> you know,
during the day, my mind is racing all
the time. The only time I can get really
present is when I'm doing this. When I
get in the studio,
I wish my whole life could be like that
because like all the crazy anxiety I
have, a lot of that's genetic and some
of it's just formed from environment.
It just kind of if it's like this, it
flows out into that and I have it and I
just harness it and go. But when I walk
out of the studio, it's all back and I'm
just, you know, could be everything from
the most minuscule things to the most
biggest questions of life, but they're
always floating in there.
>> Last question. Uh,
what's the best piece of advice you've
ever received?
be unapologetically yourself,
but also
don't take that as license to not
improve things when you are clearly
wrong.
It's a little bit of a jumbled way of
saying it, but I hope you know what I
mean. Like, you should totally be
yourself and not try to be something
else and put on a front. That's why my
show works. I walk in the studio, I'm
the same person. I just have less
anxiety. I harness it, I should say, as
as I put a couple minutes ago. But,
you know, when there's things that you
can improve about yourself, don't don't
just be like automatically, well, I'm
just being myself, so that's what it is.
You know, sometimes there's little
spots in the armor you got to fix, if
you know what I mean. And and I I I
think personal authenticity is like the
most important thing. I hate the word
authenticity, too, cuz it's this [ __ ]
dime store [ __ ] $10 word about how to
be yourself when you're saying that. And
usually when people are saying that,
it's cuz they're being everything but
themselves. But like in the way it's
meant to be in the Marryiam Webster's
dictionary, like own who you are. And
you in doing that, you also have to
understand not everyone's going to like
you. It's not how the world works.
Sometimes
sometimes you'll even really want people
to like you like certain people and
maybe you're just not their cup of tea.
I've had to learn that. I have a lot of
friends. I'm really fortunate to have
that. I have too many friends. That's a
great problem to have. And then once in
a while
there's the rare person I'm like, man, I
really would love to be friends with
that person. And once in a while in
those situations, they don't [ __ ] with
me. And it's just one is one way, the
other is the other way. That's how
that's how it goes. Sometimes you have
to be okay with that. You don't have
don't change who you are to try to get
the approval of other people. And that's
by the way, you know, I say that as
advice. That's a constant reminder I
have to tell myself all the time. It's
not like I got this figured out or
whatever. I got to be like, don't do
that. You know, why are you doing that?
You don't need that. Stop. But I, you
know, I talk to myself about that stuff
for real, like out loud sometimes. I
love that helps.
>> Most advice is only effective if it's
constantly thought about and applied,
you know.
>> Yeah. You can get careless quick.
>> Yeah. And then just to add to what you
said, I think a big lie is that people
are not enough. Uh but I think a hard
truth is that you are unfinished, that
there's stuff to work on.
>> You can always
always is a strong word.
The ability to start over or change
something is far more attainable than we
usually realize it to be.
>> That's another one I have to tell myself
all the time. But I've lived some of
that, too. I've hit the reset button and
done it, you know, with certain things.
So, there's something to be said for
that. But, like, you know,
you can turn over a new leaf if you
really set your mind to it. I I think
the human will is really powerful.
Beautiful.
Well, everyone, uh, this has been your
guest, Julian Dory. Thanks for having
me, Jack. This is the Jack Neil podcast.
For people who want to watch your work,
uh, what episode do you think viewers of
this podcast would most enjoy?
>> I It's impossible. It's too I too too
many different people. Depends what your
cup of tea is. Like it can go from like
Matan in a in a satarized comedy podcast
to Kurt Mezer in a regular comedy
podcast to like [ __ ] Sarah Edmonson
talking about being sucked into a
horrible cult where she was abused. Like
it's all over the board. But if you
check out my page, there will be
something there for you. Beautiful.
Awesome.
Thanks, man. Cool. That was awesome,
man.
>> Yeah. Hell yeah.