Welcome to Huberman Lab Essentials,
[music] where we revisit past episodes
for the most potent and actionable
science-based tools for mental health,
physical health, and performance.
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor
of neurobiology and opthalmology at
Stamford School of Medicine. And now for
my discussion with Rick Rubin. Great to
have you here today, Rick.
>> Thank you for having me. It's a
pleasure. Of all the topics in science
and in particular in neuroscience, I
confess that creativity is the most
difficult one to capture. As I went into
your book, the example that you give,
this idea that ideas and creativity are
a little bit like a cloud. If you look
at it at one moment, you might think
that it looks like one thing, but then
you look at it a moment later, it could
be quite a bit different. And if you
look at an hour later, it very well
could be gone. How did that come to you?
And how does it serve you in trying to I
don't want to say extract but trying to
access creativity.
>> I think the best way to think about it
is like a dream. It's like if you think
about your dreams they don't necessarily
make sense.
When you wake up you'll you might
remember part but not the whole thing.
Then if you start writing them down
they'll come back and they may not make
sense to you. You know maybe someday in
the future you'll be able to look back
and understand what they mean and maybe
not. And that's sort of how this the art
making uh process works is like we're
making things and we're looking for a
feeling in ourselves. It could be a
feeling of excitement or enthusiasm, a
feeling of interest, a feeling of
curiosity. I want to know more. It's not
an intellectual process. It's a
different thing. I think language is
insufficient to
to drill down on creativity. It's more
um it's closer to magic than it is uh
science.
>> Do you think kids are more are just by
definition and by design more creative
than adults?
>> Yes. Kids are they're open and they
[clears throat] have no baggage. They
don't have any belief system. They don't
know how things are supposed to work.
They just see what is. Most of us select
from
an endless number of data points
available to us to well as a as a
species to make sure that we don't die
and to procreate and to feed ourselves
are probably the primary functions
first. And then we learn things about
what's right and what's wrong. and we
learn things about uh how to do certain
things [clears throat]
or we're inspired by someone who makes
something we love and we want to do it
the way they do it. And all of those
things undermine the purity of the
creative process. They can be um tools
to
build your skill set to be able to do it
yourself. Like if you're a a singer, you
might imitate a singer you really like
for a while to get good at it and then
eventually come to find your own voice.
But if you're 3 years old or 5 year
years old and you try singing, you're
not singing like anyone else. You're
you're singing with your own your own
voice. And when you make something,
you're making it based on not knowing.
And I I think I had the advantage early
in my career of starting making music
without any experience, which was
helpful because I didn't know what rules
I was breaking. I was doing things that
other people wouldn't do. When something
feels creatively right, let's say in the
studio or maybe even you're listening to
something that somebody sent you, and
again, this could be about writing or
comedy or, you know, science or
podcasting for that matter. How do you
say keep going that way when they might
not even recognize that they did it? And
I'm guessing a lot of times they don't.
>> I I'll try to be in a in a setting where
as we're talking about it, we can engage
with it in that moment. Let's say I was
producing your new record and you played
me something and I had some thoughts
about it. It wouldn't be so helpful for
me to tell you what those were. it'd be
better for us to wait till we're in a
place where we could try things and see
where it goes. I wouldn't rely on
language to do it. It would be more of a
making a suggestion is something that's
actionable. We try it and then we have
more data. It's that simple. So much of,
you know, when we go to school, it's to
get us to
follow the rules. And in art, it's
different because the the rules are
there as a scaffolding to be um chipped
away as need be. Sometimes they're
helpful, sometimes they're not.
Understanding how you feel in the face
of other voices without second-guessing
yourself is probably the single most
important
um thing to practice as an artist or
skill set to develop as an artist is to
know how you feel and own your feelings.
If I'm undermining my taste for some
commercial idea or uh it it defeats the
whole purpose of doing this. This is not
that's not what this process is about.
This process is
I'm doing me and I'm showing you who I
am and you can like it or not. But
either way, this is still how I see it.
>> In your book, you describe again when
you're thinking about the creative
process as a cloud. For me again, it
serves as such a powerful anchor. And
then I think about the the biology, the
neurobiology of like strategy formation
or strategy implementation. And then
almost by sheer luck or miraculously, I
turn a few pages later into the book and
there's a description of how animals
that are trying to accomplish something.
eat, mate, find water, the requirements
of living. It requires a narrow visual
focus. This is something my lab is kind
of obsessed with and I've been obsessed
with. And in that more narrow visual
focus, we know that the the playbook
becomes more narrow. Now, at some point,
in order to come up with a new creative
idea, that means broadening vision is
essential in some way or broadening
thinking. Well, it could either be a
broadening or a narrowing, but it's
changing the aperture from the standard
to present something new that maybe you
already knew but didn't know you knew
it. It's not unlike what a comedian
does. You know, comedian makes you
laugh. Usually what they're saying, it's
outrageous, but you know that it's
right. You know, just no one says it
that way or no one has said it that way
before. But it's always the truth in it
that makes it funny. Recognizing
something that seems really obvious once
you see it, but seems like nobody else
sees it or no one else points it out.
>> So do you think nowadays the fact that
one can create something and quote
unquote release it quickly? I can put
something out onto Twitter or Instagram
now and I will get immediate feedback
which is external feedback of course but
then I can iterate on the basis of that
feedback. Do you think that's
problematic for the larger opportunity
for creativity?
>> I don't think it's wrong or right. It's
just it's more information that you can
use or not use and use it in a useful
way and you know you can make something
and put it out and people can not like
it and you're like they still don't get
it here. I'm going to I got to go
harder. There could be different stories
that happen at the same time where
you're making something and you have an
idea of what it is and then other people
engage with it and they have a different
idea of what it is and they like it for
a different reason than you did or
dislike it for a reason different than
the reason you like it. We can't control
any of those things. The only part of it
that we can control is how we relate to
the thing that we make. And any external
information that undermines the clarity
of that connection
is probably bad for the art is my is my
guess. All I've ever tried to make was
something I like or something that I
felt like was missing as a fan that I
wanted and I nobody was making it. So I
I'll make it. When I listen to an album
or a song, I mean, I have to assume that
there at some point it becomes
not strategy development or creativity,
but strategy implementation. Like songs
are going to come in this order. And
like at what point does one decide,
okay, like now's the time to get into
that more narrow focus of of effort.
Like we've got it, let's run with this.
because there is a component of the
creative process that involves packaging
and finishing and is that part less
satisfying to you or is it just all part
of the same larger arc?
>> It's all part of the same It's It's
nice. There's a good feeling. There's
usually a good feeling when something is
done. It's a commitment because up until
the time that you say it's done, you can
keep experimenting and changing it. You
know, if you if you think, well, maybe
tomorrow I can make it better, then it's
not finished. and you keep thinking that
for a long time, you can do that forever
and never never put out anything.
Getting to the point where you're ready
to sign off is a good feeling. One of
the things I talk about in the book is
um because it is a difficult thing to do
because it's fun to play and it's fun to
maybe it's not the best it could be yet,
you know, um
to use whatever the next project is
going to be as motivation to finish the
one you're working on. Now,
>> I'm very interested in, you know, your
process when it comes to going from
project to project and and you know,
you're going to be doing work with
somebody. Do you have a process for
removing the functions of the day and
the what you were doing last week and
what's going on and how do you clear the
static? What are some of the operational
steps that you think might be more um
generalizable to regardless of where
some somebody in you know um Africa is
listening to this?
>> I would say when I'm when I engage in a
particular project whatever it is I I
dedicate
all of myself for that period of time,
whatever it is, whether it be 20 minutes
or whether it be 5 hours, whatever it
is, total focus and no outside
distraction whatsoever.
And when I leave that process, I do my
best not to think about it when I'm away
from it. I don't bring any materials
with me. I don't leave the studio with
works in progress and spend time
listening to them during the day or
looking for ideas. I I stay as far away
from it when I'm not directly engaging
in it as possible. And in the best of
situations, I have something else to
totally engage myself in in between. So
instead of working on project A for 5
hours and then leaving and doing
nothing, I'm hoping to engage in a
project B or B, C, and D with all of
myself before going back to project A
again.
>> Even though you're disengaged,
do you believe that your subconscious is
working it through?
>> I believe so. I believe so. And I think
in general to stew over a problem is not
the way to solve a problem.
think to hold
the problems lightly. And when I say a
problem, you know, when we're when we're
starting a project, there's a question
mark at the beginning of every project.
I I I'm always anxious when I start a
new project because I have no idea
what's going to happen. I never know.
There's always a sense of anxiety
because I know whatever's going to
happen is completely out of my control.
Something either interesting or not will
appear and then we're going to follow
that wherever it goes. And until
something appears for us to follow,
I have a lot of anxiety. Even though I
know, even though it has never not come,
you know, it has come every time, but
there's something about it cuz I also
feel like there might be expectation on
me that I'm going to make it happen. And
I know that's not happening. That's not
how it works.
>> So what I keep coming back to is that
I'm imagining in my mind have two ends
of the continuum. one that is about
fairly narrow focus training training
strategy implementation cultivating
craft building craft and then the other
side is this the cloud and so we're
taking this cloud and we're we're
deciding what things are
>> yes we go through our lives
doing this all day with everything we
see if it's something we don't know and
something we're not familiar with first
thing is is
this doesn't make sense then what we do
is without thinking, we create a story
that explains what just happened
a hypothetical. Oh, maybe he's running
cuz his dog ran away and he's chasing
his dog. Maybe that's why he's running.
And as soon as we have that thought of
what it might be, we relax because now
it's not just a guy running, and this is
weird, but it's a guy running. Oh, he's
probably running after his dog. And now
we register that story that we just made
up without even knowing we were making
it up as what happened. And then later
in the day if someone says, "Yeah, do
you see that guy running out of box?"
Like, "Yeah, he was chasing his dog. I
saw that." And you you won't even
realize that it was the maybe
hypothetical story that was the first
possible explanation that allowed you to
continue walking. Our whole lives are
reacting to things, making up a story of
what we think may have happened without
realizing that's what we're doing, and
then living the rest of our lives as if
that thing that we made up really
happened. And we never know. That leads
us to we can't know much. Do you know
what I'm saying? Our resolution is so
low on everything. We're grasping at
straws. We have no idea. We have no
idea. And there's great power in knowing
that because if you think you know
what's going on,
chances are you're being deceived.
Not because somebody's deceiving you,
but because they're telling you what
they see and they don't know.
>> It's all Do you know what I'm saying?
It's all made up. Everything that we
everything we know is made up. Maybe
maybe it's true. It's This brings us to
pro wrestling. It's it's it's the reason
that pro wrestling is closer to reality
than anything else we can watch or any
other content. It's we know it's made
up.
We know that it's a performance.
It's storytelling.
And
that's how everything is. Except we
think wrestling's fake and the world is
real. Wrestling's real and the world's
fake. I do want to ask you about
wrestling. So, I have questions
specifically about wrestling, but it's
really about process.
>> Yeah.
>> What is the deal with your relationship
to wrestling?
>> Uh, I think it it maintains that kind of
playfulness. Anything is possible. We
expect the unexpected all the time in
wrestling. And it's a way to have a kind
of a feeling of
the energy of a sport
with with no competition. It's everyone
is working together to put on the best
show they can. So, it's more like a
ballet than it is like a sporting event.
>> I actually think uh the way you describe
um wrestling as you know it's the energy
of the sport. It's not the whether or
not it's this move or that move or who
wins or who loses. It's the energy and
I'm guessing it's the energy that it
creates in you
>> as an observer. Yes. It's the energy it
creates in me and the reality that it's
honest in what it is in a world where
seemingly nothing is honest at what it
is. In some ways, it's comforting and
there's still this mystery of like, wow,
I wonder if that's true or not because
we never really know. Someone gets hurt.
Did they really break their back or are
they just going on vacation? We don't
know. We'll never know. It's
fascinating. When you wake up in the
morning, um, are your thoughts
immediately structured or do you enjoy
the kind of clearing of the clouds?
>> It's a it's a slow process for me to
wake up and I like that. I like
not engaging too much too soon.
>> Does it [clears throat] become more
structured as the day goes on? Does your
thinking become um more structured
around projects and plans? I try to um
deal with things that need dealing with
after that and in preparation for going
to work and then when I go to work it's
more like this free thing where I'm
again hoping something good comes uh
welcoming something good paying
attention and maybe trying to will it to
happen but knowing I don't have the
ability to make it happen I can just be
present for it and be ready if it does
arrive. Obviously deadlines are relevant
time of day, right? There's only so many
hours in the day where one can stay in
the groove or this like readiness to
receive. Have you ever found yourself in
that mode where you're kind of grinding
like ah like here we are like okay I'm
not coming home for dinner tonight. It's
the next we're going to push. We're like
put on the coffee pot kind of thing.
>> A lot a lot in the over the course of my
life a lot not as much now. And one of
the things that I discovered through
working on the book was we're not
required to treat the different phases
of work in the same way. Whereas before
I did before everything was in this
state of play. Everything had an a wide
openen time schedule. It happens when it
happens. If it takes 2 years or 3 years,
it doesn't matter. It's not about that.
It's only about this thing has to be
great. And what I came to realize in
working on the book is that there there
are different phases. And the first
phase is this seed collecting phase
which is kind of an ongoing part of life
in general. I do that always whether I'm
whether I'm working on something or not.
I'm always in the seed collecting phase
and there's no deadline or uh anything
that interests me that I think I want to
learn more about or has potential to be
something anything I hear something
think hm [clears throat] I'd like to
read more about that or I wonder if I
wonder if there's a movie about that is
there a movie about that if not maybe
there's a movie to be made you know like
again I want this is something I want in
my life let's see if it exists if it
doesn't exist then maybe that's
something interesting to pursue um but I
know that the desire is there because I
have it. So in the seed phase, there's
no deadlines. It's just a wide open
part. And then the next phase is called
the experimentation phase where you
where you start experimenting to see
what the seeds want to do. You're
involved, but you're not really
dictating the action. You're you're
setting the stage for something to
happen, but it's not about you yet. It'd
be like the equivalent of you'd plant
the seed, you would water it, you'd make
sure it was in the sun, and you'd wait.
Um, so you're involved, but you can't
make it grow, you know, and then when it
sprouts and it grows and or if it turns
into a plant, then you can look at the
plants like, okay, how does this plant,
what's the potential of this plant? And
then you and then that the third phase
is the crafting phase where it's like
okay I have this plant maybe I'm going
to trim it or maybe I'm gonna uh combine
it with these other plants to make some
something else with it. Now it's like
material that you have and then finally
is the the completion or or finishing
phase which is the final edit getting to
the version of it the version of it
that's the one that you can share with
the world if if that's something you're
going to do. And I've come to realize
that by the time you're going into the
completion phase, you can have a
deadline and it won't hurt the project.
In fact, it might help the project. And
I didn't know that before. So, I've
worked on projects that have gone longer
than they necessarily needed to and
maybe not in the best interest of the
project because I didn't know that. I
didn't understand that that the timing
of that because I because I am so aware
of the necessity in the experimental
phase to not have a deadline
that I assumed that that held through
the whole project. It's not a clear
phase one finishes and then you start
phase two, phase two finishes and then
you start phase three. You move back and
forth between them. I'm collecting seeds
all the time. I'm always in phase one.
And then probably to some degree there's
always some version of experimentation
going on. Maybe not now, but if
something's on a list of things I want
to look at, hopefully I'll get get to
the list and give them some
experimentation and see what they can
turn into. And then if they do turn into
something, then they get to the crafting
phase where it's more, okay, now I have
this thing. What do what do I know about
this kind of thing? What can I match
this with? What can I use this for? How
can I be involved as a craftsman? By the
end of the crafting phase or deep into
the crafting phase,
you can start seeing the end. You know,
you can start seeing an end. And then
you can even dictate an end. But I
recommend if you do, just dictate it for
you, not for anyone else. Because if
something comes up where you learn if if
you uh [clears throat]
set a deadline, a public deadline, and
then a new discovery happens along the
way and you realize, oh, this could
actually be much better than I thought,
but I need more time. It's harder to do
that if you set the deadline.
>> The chapter on self-doubt was really
interesting to me. I'll read the first
sentence of it um which is that
self-doubt lives in all of us
>> and while we may wish it was gone, it is
there to serve us. Uh and it goes on to
describe how to um dance with
self-doubt. As one gets better at their
craft, you can imagine self-doubt goes
down. I think that's the perception of a
lot of people, right? You get better
what you're doing. Self-confidence goes
up, self-doubt goes down. But I think
you and I both know a number of people
who are successful enough to know that
often times there's a mirror image to
that where people feel pressure because
they did it once, now they got to do it
again.
>> Self-doubt is a it's like a um
it's a check on yourself. It can either
be really helpful or it can undermine
you. So, it's something we all have and
if we let it undermine us, then we don't
make anything and that's not good. But
when used as a a balancing tool in our
lives, it serves a great function. I
think the the phrases in the book, you
can doubt your way to a great work, you
know, to a masterpiece.
>> Have you ever encountered music that
really works well live but just does not
work in a recording? You don't have to
name names.
>> Yeah, I don't think so. I feel like
maybe there are some artists who are
great live who've never captured it well
on record. The Grateful Dead's a good
example of a band where I feel like
their albums are not their strong point,
but they're, if you hear live
recordings, they're really interesting
and really different from each other.
And that's kind of part of what makes
the Grateful Dead interesting is their
unpredictability. They're looking for
something
>> and sometimes they find it
>> and if you're there when they find it,
it feels exciting. It's not just
following a script. It's like something
is really happening. It's a it's a real
moment. Something that I aim for in the
studio
is to create real moments that when you
hear them, they don't necessarily sound
perfect. They sound like something that
really happened and in that moment
something happened and it's a special
moment. It's it's really what it's how
jazz works as well. The way you describe
um experiences going by in time and or
or things emerging in time and the
creative process being a way of
capturing those moments was beautifully
captured in the in the analogy you gave
about a kind of a con a conveyor belt
going by. I'll just read it to be beware
of the assumption that the way you work
is the best way simply because it's the
way you've done it before. Maybe you
could elaborate on this a little bit. I
mean, we want to have, you know,
mechanisms and routines we can trust.
>> Yeah.
>> But this is a, I think, an important
warning.
>> Yeah. When something works,
it's easy to be fooled into believing
that's the way to do it or that's the
right way. It's just a way and it's just
a way that happened to work that time.
This plays into when you get advice from
people who have more experience than
you. The advice that they're giving you
is not based on your life or your
experience. It's based on their life and
their experience that have very
different data points than yours.
So
maybe they're giving you good advice,
but maybe they're giving you good advice
for them and not giving you good advice
for you. I think it's hard enough to
even figure out what's right for
ourselves and if we do somehow crack the
code of what's right for us,
be happy we have it and then still know
I wonder if that's the only way. Maybe
there's an even better way that we're
not considering.
>> I forget the exact title of the chapter,
but um there's a chapter about being on
the lookout for clues.
>> Yeah.
>> Do you think there are clues in in every
everywhere? Yes, I think there are clues
everywhere for if we pay attention,
we'll hear a phrase, it'll trigger a a
thought, we'll see something unexpected.
Um, in the if someone recommends
something to you, maybe it's a
coincidence. If three people recommend
the same thing to you, maybe it's not. I
do believe the universe is on the side
of creativity
and the universe is supporting
things to happen and they can happen
through you or they could happen through
someone else. So if you're paying
attention maybe it'll happen through
you. The belief part of it is a huge
part of the conversation
about everything. You know what we
believe has power. If we believe we can
make something great, the chances of us
making something great are better than
if we don't believe we can. So, uh I I
would say any ability to harness your
belief on your behalf is a really
healthy thing to do. One thing that you
make very clear is that while our own
abilities may come into question from
time to time,
you absolutely believe that the elements
from which to create are out there.
>> Absolutely. All all the elements are all
are are here. Everything is here. We get
to pick and choose. We get to the
conveyor belts going by with little
gifts. First, we have to notice there's
a conveyor belt. Then we notice the
gifts and then that's the starting
point. And then we may even feel uh
uh empowered enough to grab one of the
gifts and open it up and see what's
inside. And then maybe that's the start
of something really beautiful.
Everything that I make or have made has
always been based on something that I
see or hear that
allows me to see something that I didn't
see before. So, I was going to ask you
whether or not it's important to be
happy in order to create, but certainly
a lot of people that were unhappy were
still able to create. But the more I
listen to you, it seems that it's really
about an ability to pay attention.
>> Yes.
>> So, if I'm unhappy or if I'm happy may
not be as relevant as whether or not I'm
able to stay undistracted.
>> Yes. I would say being able to stay
present in the work is probably the most
most important part of it and how you
feel
is less of an issue unless how you feel
gets in the way of you feeling how the
work makes you feel.
>> I do want to ask you about one other
aspect of process which is meditation.
How would you define meditation? Well,
there's different there are different
types of meditation. Usually, we either
are
engaging in a mantra which would be a
version of a almost like a creating a
trance for ourselves.
Not unlike listening [clears throat] to
something when we go to sleep that would
distract our conscious mind from
participating. we would be overriding
our uh the the talking mind with just a
sound that we're generating or a word or
a phrase series of phrases or it could
be focused on the breath. But the
purpose of being focused on the breath
is to not
hear the self-t talk that we normally
have. It's a singlepointed
focus exercise in those that I
described. The other version is an
awareness meditation where you're
closing your eyes and you're being with
whatever is. There's no story. There's
no this means this. None of those
things. Just like an inventory almost of
everything that comes up when it comes
up. And you do that for a period of
time. But in in all of those cases in in
the example of doing the awareness
meditation or doing a mantra meditation
or focusing on the breath in none of
them am I thinking and none of them am I
concentrating on
I I'm I'm being aware of the of sense
perceptions
in the awareness one
or in the other meditations I'm doing a
practice this so that I'm not aware of
thinking about anything else. And
there's also something called the um the
surgical series from the Monroe
Institute which
I used when I had a surgery. You listen
to this recording and
it both [clears throat] allows your body
to heal much faster and removes some of
the trauma that goes on when you know
getting cut open. It's traumatic. But
just through listening to certain
things, you can um can have a really
powerful effect, heal much faster. I
remember I was about to be put under for
a surgery and my eyes were closed and I
wasn't communicating with anyone there
because I was going inside and um and my
wife was with me and they came in and
they said, "Oh, um so they already gave
Rick Rick the sedative because he's
ready to wheel in." She's like, "I
didn't give him anything." He's like,
"But look at his numbers." just like,
"Yeah, [laughter]
>> I love it. I love that you're so willing
to share what you do and your process."
And I just want to thank you for being
such an incredible portal and also for
being an amazing friend.
>> Thank you. I love you. I'm so happy to
be here with you. And anytime I get to
see you, it's a good day.
>> Likewise.