[music]
The one thing that convinced me beyond
anything else that I had access to was
listening to this Air Force sergeant.
female who was abducted countless
[music]
times, went through literally torture by
these extraterrestrials, having marks on
her hands. They took her fingernails
off, her toenails off, bleeding from the
eye, ruptured her eard drum once, and
then the a lot of things that we did
[music] in a surveillance
capacity
to confirm what she says. That convinced
me that there are
They they weren't humans doing this to
her.
>> You surveiled it?
>> We set up a surveillance
and that's about all I can say. She uh
lived in a two-story real small
apartment and she her bedroom was
upstairs and we knew
uh that she would be taken uh during a
time period.
So this is a multi-pronged, multiaceted,
multi-ep [music] departmented
sting operation
in order to capture this. Yes, that was
successful. There were some that
weren't, but that was what was
successful. That's a fact. And she's a
whistleblower, and she would be the
number one [music] person I would put in
front of a camera if I was a member of
Congress.
>> Whoa. a mentality regarding they can't
be hostile, they're all benevolent is
absolutely out the window.
Are they on here?
>> Yeah, they're on there.
>> I'm going to show you something.
Okay.
[music]
Wow.
Does that look like something you've
seen before?
>> I can't say.
>> I think he just did.
I've had several strange experiences in
my life potentially related to ET
phenomena, but this story is in regards
to levitation. When I was 9 or 10 years
old, I was walking home from a friend's
house. As I would [music] sometimes do,
I decided to run as fast as I could and
jump as far as I could. I did two jumps,
both [music] of which I measured from
where I landed back to the stop sign.
That was my jumping off point. They were
maybe 5 to 10 ft. I decided to do one
more, went back a ways, and ran towards
the stop sign. As I jumped, I suddenly
became aware that the air seemed very
silent. I also had a strong experience
of weightlessness and [music] extreme
forward momentum, more than the last two
jumps. I came down at a dead stop on
both feet, feeling almost zero
gravitational influence. Tracing my
[music] steps back to the stop sign, I
counted over 30 steps. Within moments, I
heard crickets, cars in the distance,
lawn sprinklers, all of which had faded
away while I was in the [music] air. I
tried hundreds and hundreds more times.
I never even came close to the same
distance. And it wasn't a dream because
I told my mom when I got home. She
didn't believe me, [music] but
remembered me telling her when I asked
about it later. I don't know. It's a big
weird world.
>> Ladies and gentlemen, today we are
joined by none other than Richard Dodie,
former AFOSI officer.
Um, you've got quite the history, good
sir. You've got a lot um in your past in
terms of euphology and your relationship
to it, whether it's in a formal capacity
or an informal capacity, whether that's
uh a hobby or a job. uh your name is
pretty uh you know I would say pretty
prominent in this topic. Uh so I first
of all want to thank you for joining me
today.
>> Thank you. Good to be here Chris.
>> Yeah. Um
for those people out there uh wondering
you know who I'm sitting with, they they
might be familiar with you. They might
have seen your face somewhere. Whether
that's Ancient Aliens, whether that's a
Netflix documentary or um even some
other documentaries that have come out
in the past. Um, you're a recognizable
figure to those of us who who know uh
about the UFO topic. Uh, but to those
who don't, how would you introduce
yourself?
Well, I I'm a former Air Force OSI
special agent, counter intelligence
officer within the Air Force Office of
Special Investigations and um I started
that career back in the 70s.
uh worked in uh some controversial
issues uh primarily the Paul Benowitz
case. A lot of the um UFO historians
uh know about that case uh whether they
want to uh criticize me for it uh for
what I did in it, but I did it in
accordance with uh military regulations
and uh I worked in the intelligence
community up till 1988.
From there I left uh the government
service. Uh I worked for the state of
New Mexico for a while and then I worked
for Dr. Putoff uh at the Institute for
Advanced Studies for 12 years
and then sometime in the um mid
uh probably 2010 or 2015 I started uh
coming on programs and um talking about
what I did during my time in counter
intelligence.
And then uh in 2018 I was hired by a
Gaia and I have over 220
episodes on Gaia. I also have about 18
episodes of the Dodie Chronicles.
Uh I've been on uh Ancient Aliens, a
number of different other UFO programs
uh talking about my past experience in
the subject of UFOs or investigating
them. So that's who I am and that's what
I've done in the past.
>> Thank you so much for that. Uh
incredible pedigree. Um there's there's
a lot there. There's a really colorful
history um across these last I would say
almost 40 years.
Um
you I I want to start somewhere because
we had a guest on recently, Mario Woods,
who you're familiar with. um who you've
actually met for the first time in 1977.
>> Yes.
>> Um you know, and it wouldn't be until
decades later uh that that would be
brought up again. And Mario was a guest
here just a few short weeks ago and we
actually tried to get you and Mario
together and it didn't work out timing
wise. Um, but Mario had a really
interesting
um
encounter to say the least, not only
with uh what appeared to be a giant
craft, uh, but also the beings aboard
that craft and then afterwards was
subsequently debriefed for like 5 hours
and interrogated and he had to, you
know, write down exactly what happened
and all of this. But during that
process, there was a sort of medical
exam or sort of physical examination
that took place. I OSI officers uh
namely uh yourself and someone else and
you if I'm not mistaken were that you
were just coming into that sort of space
uh if I'm not mistaken that would have
been quite new for you.
>> Yes, I was on a temporary assignment to
Ellsworth Air Force Base and something
entirely different. It was a espionage
investigation
and while I was at the OSI office, uh
Mario, the incident with Mario occurred
and I was asked by the chief uh of the
detachment commander at uh Ellsworth, uh
a guy by the name of John Bris Boy, uh
to go to the base hospital and pick up
records uh for a Mario Woods, Sergeant
Mario Wood. So, I did I went there. I
brought him back. Uh when I brought him
back to the OSI office, Mario was there.
I walked into the interview room to give
uh the the medical files to uh Jack
Green, who was the OSI agent
investigating this incident. And um I
stood there in the room uh while they
were talking to uh Mario. Before this, I
had no idea what the incident occurred,
but I as I listened to this, I I became
more intrigued by it. And so
I was I I probably stayed in there 40 45
minutes or so. I don't know exact time.
I left and I had to do some other
things. Then I had to go and do what I
was there to do. But I came back and
they still had Mario in there. Now my
timeline uh I think it would have been
probably about 10 hours of in
interrogation.
>> Oh wow.
>> Rather than the four or five uh because
when I came back now there might have
been a break in between but they were
still uh going after I mean they weren't
going after him but they were
interrogating.
Uh there's a difference uh real quickly
uh in um in counter intelligence or in
any any uh type of investigation whether
it's criminal or or espionage or or
anything else. You you interview you can
be doing an interview or you can be
doing an interrogation. They're they're
different. An interview is just
obtaining the information uh relaxing
the uh target the person that you're
interviewing. Interrogating is you're
trying to force that person to give you
information that they don't want to give
you
>> or they might not remember it. And when
I the second time I went there, they
were interrogating
Mario.
>> They were grilling him.
>> They were grilling him on what he did or
what he saw. And apparently at some
other time they had the second uh Air
Force security policeman who was with
Mario because there was two of them in
the pickup truck and they had him in
another room. I never went in that other
room so I'm not sure what they did or
how they interviewed him but I I saw
them interrogating Mario and based on
what I remember then and then jump ahead
you know 40ome years. Um what Mario said
and what happened is is factual factual
because the OSI report later which was
classified
uh considered it an actual incident. So
>> really
>> yeah that
>> you you had access to that obviously.
>> I had access to that. Yeah. And I've had
conversations with Mario. I've been on
some other podcasts with him and I I
believe everything he says. Um he might
have um got some things um
uh or not wrong but he might have
forgotten some things because there was
a time period that he uh might have had
a uh missing time link in in when the
incident first happened.
>> Six hours.
>> Yeah, exactly. I thought it was more
than that, but it was six hours. And so
what happened during that time peri you
know only the aliens know.
>> Yeah. Sure. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Them and u you know perhaps
Michael Johnson as well. Who did you
meet with him? Were you debriefing him
as well? Were they interrogating Michael
Johnson at the same time?
>> Michael Johnson was in another room. I
never had access to Michael Johnson.
>> He was pro at that point. He was like
catatonic as well. He wasn't really
>> Well, as as I understood, he had been in
the hospital. He had they had
transferred somebody went over. That
wasn't me. Somebody went to the base
hospital and picked him up and brought
him to the OSI office. I I I don't know
if it was an agent or the ambulance or
or I think I think it might have been
their supervisor, the security police,
the 44th missile security squadron was
in and I think it was somebody within
that uh squadron, a captain or somebody
brought him there. But again, I didn't
have any uh contact with Michael
Johnson, only Mario.
And during this time, Mario had also
said that he was um in and I believe if
I'm not mistaken, this was done by the
OSI officer, that they felt around his
mouth.
Do you remember him saying this?
>> Yes.
>> And that they were looking for something
in his mouth. They spent a substantial
amount of time, several minutes, feeling
around the inside of his mouth. Can you
tell me why that is?
>> [clears throat]
>> As I understood, he had when he was
examined
at the base hospital,
>> he was examined first by uh the
emergency room physician who I I don't
remember what his specialty was, but
normally it's just a general
practitioner and then um
he said something to them at the
hospital that OSI was interested in of
of what his voice how his voice changed.
And I think that's why again I I wasn't
there and I can't say for a fact but I
believe they thought he might have had
something implanted into his mouth or
his throat and that's why they checked
it first at the emergency room and I
believe later there was a uh maybe a
specialist I ears and throat doctor that
that saw him but the OSI office they
were looking for something in his throat
that might have been implanted in there
That's the That's what I got out of it.
>> Implanted by whom?
>> By whoever took him. Maybe the
extraterrestrials. I I I don't know. But
>> is that part for the course? Is that
something that they've run into before?
That's why they were checking it out.
>> Uh
now, let me go back a little bit.
>> Sure.
>> During this time period, I was not
briefed into any special programs.
>> No, this is before.
>> This is way before. Two years before. So
I I had no idea about any of this about
uh abductions or about uh implants or
anything like that.
Uh years later when I was all was when I
was briefed into everything, I I
realized that the extraterrestrials
in in order there were occasions uh
where or incidents
uh where they had placed something in
the the body, the mouth, the throat, the
nose
uh in order for the extraterrestrials to
better communicate with the human. Now,
I don't know how that worked. Uh there
are specialists uh Dr. Green and and
others uh can can explain that. I'm not
a doctor, so I can't explain uh why or
how they did that or or but I know that
there were um at least two cases that I
know of. A woman uh that had had an
abduction, an Air Force, a sergeant, she
was in the Air Force. She was uh
abducted and they had placed something
under her tongue. And this was done
during your time.
Yes.
>> Do we have her name or is that
currently?
>> Uh that's that's pretty much classified.
She's she's a whistleblower right now uh
listed in in in in Congress. So she if
she comes out and speaks um
>> Well, no. Yeah. And there's going to be
a u um an awakening so to speak in uh
the difference between a friendly
extraterrestrial
and a non-friendly extraterrestrial. Uh
because she went through the horrors of
abductions from an hostile
extraterrestrial.
>> Really
is. Do you think that that is I want to
talk more about this a little bit later,
but do you think that that is perhaps
her perception due to this forceful sort
of kidnapping uh that one would
make uh a being who might be neutral
seem sort of more malevolent uh because
of the nature of you know we're looking
at something from another world looks
menacing. you know, they're perhaps
pinning her down. Like, we don't know
the real reason why this would happen.
Do you think that there's a Because when
someone says hostile
um but then has a chip implanted and is
let go,
you know, like we are also hostile to
dolphins,
but that doesn't mean we want to kill
the dolphins and take over the dolphin
world and like, you know, you know what
I mean? And so, do you think that might
just be her interpretation of the event?
It could very well be because number
one, we have no idea
uh what these extraterrestrials
uh intent is in abducting a human being
uh to get information or to get DNA or
to get samples of their their fluids or
or whatever. So, um they're alien to us
and we're alien to them.
uh they might have to use techniques
that we can't even imagine to get
information from a human. And so you're
right that that could very well be uh
that's just the way they operate.
>> Mhm.
>> Now she she's alive. They didn't kill
her. Uh she's recovered.
Um
but so but the her case what stands out
to me is her case has been uh thoroughly
I mean thoroughly thoroughly
investigated
by the government not just AFOSI but by
other agencies within the government.
>> What other agencies?
>> Uh the intelligence community. I'll just
leave it at that. There were techniques
because of her abductions. There were
techniques developed
from her abductions that were collected
by US intelligence that I can't talk
about that can prove her case. Wait, so
there are certain things that happened
to her that they now use to see if other
cases are legitimate?
>> Absolutely.
>> Does that have to do with like physical
mark markings?
Yes, that and some um trace um traits
that um the I got to be very careful
here. The traits that the abductee
um shows
that can be traced to something else
and and based on that there was
something developed by the intelligence
community.
to number one determine whether the
person is actually telling the truth and
number two uh and the counterpart of
that is protecting the the target and
that was developed years later. It
wasn't developed during her time, but
based on what she went through, uh the
intelligence community and uh
contractors
uh developed something that can protect
a human from a particular type of
abduction from a particular
extraterrestrials. Now you got to
understand this.
We one of the main problems uh the
public has uh is uh that they group all
extraterrestrials into one group, one
one one category. You can't do that. Um
during my time I knew of and I have them
here a list of them of of of um the
extraterrestrials that um we knew
existed that we had contact with. Okay.
And um
and so they're all different. Number
one, they're all different bi biologics.
They come from different planets.
Their body structures are entirely
different.
So you can't group their brains are
different. So you can't group all
extraterrestrials into one category.
That's why when you uh when we talking
about an abduction of of of a of a human
by an extraterrestrial,
it depends on what extraterrestrials
doing that and what they're gathering
and and and how they're doing it and
what type of thoughts or what type of
type of techniques or or uh gadgets
they're putting into those those humans.
>> So when the government creates something
a counter to counter it there. It's only
going to work on that particular
extraterrestrial. It's not going to work
on anyone else. Then again, um I can't
go into great details because I kne I
knew some more information about this,
but there lot
>> of like other species.
>> Yeah, other species. And a lot has been
developed beyond my time. And I I don't
want to go into anything uh that might
uh disclose something I'm not supposed
to talk about. So, I'll just leave it at
that.
>> Sure. I mean, super interesting that
there's protocol on a sort of
anti-abduction
uh process. Um, well, when I was working
on uh MNA Hansen case and and you know
who MNA Hansen is, that's part of the
Paul Benitz case.
>> Uh, when when um Leo Sprinkle and Alan
Heinik brought her to us, I had no idea
anything about abductions. I didn't know
that they were real. I I I wasn't ever
briefed into it. I did a report and sent
it to headquarters and a week or so
later, two DIA agents came down to
Kirtland to the OSI office. I was told
that, hey, I two visitors out here want
to see me. You know, they were cleared.
I brought him in. They said, yeah, we
want to talk about the MNA Hansen case.
And I said, okay. I said, who are you
guy? What what branch are you with? And
he one of them tells me we're with this
particular branch. I said what does that
involve? He said abductions. We
investigate abductions. And I said the
DIA has a branch that investigates alien
abductions. He said yeah. The DIA.
So I knew then. He said, "You mean
you're not briefed into this particular
special access program?" I said, "No."
Well, I got briefed into it and then I
realized that uh this has been going on
for years. They take it very seriously.
>> This is 1980 and these guys are taking
it seriously and this unit within DIA
has been around
for for years now. DIA remember only
came in existence in 1961. So, I thought
I didn't say anything to them, but it
piqued my curiosity as wait a minute,
these things must be real then,
>> cuz I didn't think that Ma I mean, I
interviewed MNA Hansen, but
>> I just thought she was some she was
psychologically unstable or something.
Sure. I mean, the DIA is also known to
be involved in like a lot of trippy
subjects, including Stargate, including,
you know, taking on all of the uh the
work at SRRI that they were doing and
and and that type of thing. Do you think
that
a lot of that is still within the DIA
specifically, or is that been also sort
of branched out into contractor hands?
I think that's it's being still
controlled by DIA,
but I feel that uh it's been contracted
out.
>> Yeah. Mo most things have been I would
assume.
>> Yes.
>> For you know to remove yourself for any
plausible deniability that the
government might want or should want in
these uh scenarios. Um which does bring
a question to mind as well. So when you
were when you were working on the Paul
Benowitz uh case,
um
first of all, the decision to
uh sort of implement misinformation or
inject information in a counter
intelligence capacity uh due to you know
seeing uh advanced tech and and and
covering that up. Uh,
how was that decision given to you? Were
you brought in a room and briefed? Were
you given uh was this in writing? Was
this verbally? How was that given to you
to to take care of this?
>> Anytime there's an operation or a
project within uh OSI or intelligence
community, there has to be an
operational plan.
When the case first opened, the Paul
Benwitz case first opened, uh I would do
a report and send it to headquarters and
it would go through CIA to DIA and then
uh they would send back uh uh a
operations plan or
a um a list of things that I need to do
to prepare an operations plan or to get
more information. And in particular Paul
Binua's case, they sent back and saying,
"You need to do this, this, this, this,
and this."
>> And what was this, this, this, and this?
>> Go out and get more information on him.
Uh, find out uh neighbors, uh, do a what
we call a local agency check. Uh, and I
did all those things. There probably 10
things I did. I did a report, sent it
back up there, and then we got on the
phone, uh, we call a KY3 phone. was a
secure uh phone system where we
discussed the case between me, my boss
and headquarters and they decided okay
we need to do this operational plan
which was developed up there sent to me
and here's what I had to do and the plan
was followed and so the disinformation
or the misinformation
uh was all planned at headquarters. Uh
that's
what they told me to do. I did what I
was told to do. Sure.
>> And and so that's that's how that goes.
>> So was that stuff Did it feel to you
like they had done that before?
>> Oh, I know they've done it before
because I've been involved in other
operations where they've done it. Yeah.
>> I see. So this was kind of protocol on
how to deal with this scenario. Now, was
that to deal was that only for people
who saw
um sort of
technical advanced vehicle testing? Was
that like the protocol or was there more
than one protocol to deal with that? Was
there a story, a script that you guys
had to follow? I'm very curious about
how you guys went about, okay, somebody
reports a sighting. Do you instantly go
into, okay, we investigate this and then
if it was us doing advanced tech stuff,
then we have this cover story that we go
in with or was every case taken case by
case? Like, how was that filtered? Every
case was was different. Yeah, it depends
on who did who saw it. The target we
call uh and uh what the circumstances
were uh behind their sighting. Uh and in
Paul's case, he was taking pictures of
something uh that was flying over the
base. Um and it was a highly classified
program, a drone program. It was the the
Air Force's drone program that was in in
its infancy stage.
And the way they uh tested these drones
was they would fly a plane. Uh it could
e be a C130 which is propeller driven or
a uh RC135 or RC 137 which were like a
707. They would launch these drones from
the plane and there would be a
controller
controlling but the plane had to be in
close proximity to these drones. Well,
Paul was taking pictures of these
objects flying around this aircraft,
these aircrafts, and he assumed that
they were UFOs. They were
extraterrestrials.
And so, uh, it was so the in order for
him,
um, to not be become involved in the
classified program, we had to convince P
that yeah, he was seeing UFOs. But it
seems like he was already convinced of
that. Like why not just let him believe
it was UFOs and ignore it entirely?
>> Well, we did. We do. I would go in and
number one, Paul was involved in Apppro,
which as you know what that was. Uh he
was an investigator, field investigator
for APRO. Um the infancy stage of Muon
was there. Uh he was a believer in UFOs.
He's had an experience uh with a UFO on
a picnic once with his family. So he he
was a believer. And so when I went in to
talk to him and he told me what he what
he did and what he saw, uh he and he was
con trying to convince me they were
UFOs. All I had to do was say, "You know
what? Bo, I think they are. Yeah, I
think they are flying saucers." He would
use the word flying saucers, not UFOs.
And I and and that's it. That's all I
had to do. I didn't have to sit there
and and interrogate him or or brainwash
him or anything like that. He was
already a believer and it was very
simple to just agree with him.
>> Yeah. And to to do the opposite would
have been going against direct orders.
>> Exactly.
[sighs]
H Yeah, it's that's an interesting uh
position to find yourself in. Um at what
stage during your career was that
particular incident beginning? How many
years in?
>> Uh about three and a half or four years
in.
>> And how many cases had you covered
similarly before that?
>> UFO related. Um, in 1979 we had a case
or early 80s, late 79, early 80s, we had
a case at at Kirtland involving
a a sighting in a a highly classified
area of the base. A Sandia National
Laboratory's security guard. Now, Sandia
was a contractor on the base. The
security guard was civilian uh had an
encounter with a UFO that landed on the
base. I was the case agent that went out
there, investigated that. Before this, I
was not briefed in anything to do with
UFOs. So, I took the report, I
investigated it, I came back to the
office, I submitted a report through my
through my boss to headquarters.
Headquarters came back and said, "I need
to be briefed into this particular
program." And not is called NQ. Um, so
my boss says, "You need to go. we're
going to get you a briefing. You're
going to need to go over to the uh uh
Air Force Special Security Office, which
is on the west side of Kirtland Air
Force Base, and get a briefing. I said,
"Okay." And now I've done that before on
other matters, but nothing to do with
UFOs on on espionage or something other.
So, I did. I went over there. I sat uh
went in a room. There was some other
people, a colonel, Air Force colonel and
a and a and a civilian briefed us on
United States invol United States
government involvement with the
investigation and contact with the with
extraterrestrials from 1947.
And that's the briefing. It lasted
several hours. They showed us film. Uh
they showed us some documents.
Um we took it all in. Uh
>> you say we how many people were there?
There were I don't remember exactly uh
10 maybe not OSI agents, right? I was
the only OSI agent in the room. The
other people in the room were
intelligence people or or some other
people that had a need to know were um
were the other people in the room were
some of them also civilians? Like were
these academic types or contractors?
There's no shortage of creativity on
this channel as you've probably noticed.
Uh we churn out some of the highest
quality productions in terms of podcasts
weekly and it is fun but it's also a
grind and we don't always have time to
attain that Spielbergesque level of
production on a weekly basis. Uh it's
nearly impossible but we do manage and
that is partially due to the help of
Higsfield Cinema Studio. See, we use
Higsfield in pretty much every single
production that we do. And whether it's
really subtle things or whether it's
recreating something, but you can also
use Higsfield in very creative ways like
I can have it rain in my studio right
now or I could teleport myself into
a UFO.
There's no shortage of ideas. It really
is uh limited only by your imagination.
And if you want to check out how to use
Higsfield or if you're curious at all, I
left the link in the description. Thank
you to Higsfield for sponsoring this
video. Some of them were contractors.
Sandy National Laboratories, a couple of
them were with Department of Energy. Um
I think there were some civilian uh uh
scientists within the Air Force Weapons
Laboratory there. Um, I'm just guessing
because I don't know exactly,
>> but I was the only OSA agent.
>> Anybody with like longer hair than they
should have.
>> Yes.
>> Yeah. Okay.
>> Um, yeah. They would hire some
[laughter]
>> Yes. some kooky scientists back then.
>> Yeah.
>> And all sorts of trippy folk looking
into this stuff. But so you're you're
given this briefing. This is really
fascinating. Uh, now in this briefing
you mentioned, okay, there's footage,
there's photos, there's documents.
Did you ever get the sense as someone
who's never stepped foot into this that
this has got to be baloney? Like what
they're what they're telling me here,
this can't be real. Uh did you or anyone
in the room get that sense or were you
all just kind of taken aback of what you
were seeing?
>> Well, I had no conversations with any
anybody else during this uh briefing and
we had a break period too. I I it was
several hours. Um well I never we never
had any briefing because it was
classified. We left to go to break room.
It's on a classified area. You can't
talk about classified information. We
were not in a skiff when when this
briefing occurred. Uh but yes absolutely
because after this briefing was over
with, I had to drive from there back
over to the OSI office which was on the
east side of Kirtland Air Force Base 7 8
miles. Uh, I pulled into a parking lot
of of some some uh unit on base and sat
there and trying to digest what I just
heard and my skepticism was way up here.
I thought, is this a psychological
operation they're pulling on us?
>> You thought that? Oh, absolutely. I I
was
>> in fact I was always somewhat of a
skeptic in the subject because growing
up my brother was a UFO. I didn't
believe any of that stuff. Uh but e even
in the regular air force when I was
wearing a uniform in the regular air
force there was occasions of people
talking about the subject. I would not
believe anything they were talking
about.
Jump ahead to at to sitting in that
parking lot. I thought this can't be
real. I mean the crash in Roswell uh
crash at Kingman. Uh, we saw a film of a
crash site.
It's all made up. So, I get back to the
office.
>> Before we get back to the office, that
film on the crash site, can you
elaborate a little bit which crash site?
>> It was the Roswell crash site.
>> That was the Roswell crash. Uh, the one
in Corona.
>> The run one in Corona. It showed the
craft. It showed uh bodies
outside the craft like on a dirt mound.
And um it it showed a recovery area
where there were tents uh military tents
set up. Uh there were uh military
personnel in uniforms, army uniforms.
This is 47. Air Force hadn't existed
quite yet. Um there were um
debris that they apparently had taken
out of the craft and and set on tables.
Um the there was a narrator. Now none of
the uh people in the the the t the movie
or film we're talking uh the there was a
narrator an army or a military officer
narrating what we were seeing. Uh
obviously that narrator
wasn't there. I'm sorry was something
that was added later.
>> Sure. Yeah. But uh it was a looked to me
like a legitimate film. The beginning of
the film showed it was classified. Um
and so that's that's what the film was.
Now they also showed a second uh
recovery site in Kingman, Arizona. And I
I think it was 53.
>> Yeah.
>> And they showed it the craft and they
showed uh two two bodies
>> similar bodies.
>> Uh no, they were different. They looked
different. And recovery. Now in 53 there
were Air Force personnel around the the
the recovery truck said United States
Air Force on it and so that's some of
the what I can remember in the film. H
>> how are you how are you allowed to talk
about this?
>> It's all unclassified now.
>> That's unclassified.
>> That is unclassified.
>> So what happened to the footage?
>> Good question. Where's the footage? I
mean, if it's
>> Congress Congress wants that footage
footage. Um, the Air Force gave him some
things but didn't give him everything.
Now, I would love to know what all that
footage is. And and that's just that's
just two of probably 40 or 50 different
crash sites that we know about.
>> Really?
>> Yeah.
>> Could we as I mean there's probably been
several attempts to foyer that briefing
or those documents that were available
in that briefing. How much success have
people found in trying to retrieve some
of that? What you saw?
>> I tried.
>> Yeah, [laughter]
>> I tried myself and I got uh the they
can't confirm existence or non-existence
of the material that I requested. So,
it's not going to be released because
it's it's but I've talked about it. Many
other people have talked about it. Uh my
NDA expired in 2002. I started talking
about it after 2002.
There were only during during 2002 and
2020 today
as we talk in 2026. Uh there's been two
occasions where I've been visited by FBI
agents who told me that I said something
on camera that I shouldn't have said.
And I said and I knew at the time I
actually knew that I shouldn't have said
what I was saying because it was still a
special access program in SAP. Yeah. But
I said it and I tried to work around
what I said and I did I I did I did a
poor job of that. And then the second
time it was a document that I'd given to
somebody that had uh some classified
information on it. Uh and I can assure
you that stuff isn't that's been out on
the internet for years. Um that uh I
shouldn't have given them.
>> They're that quick to pick up on it.
Huh. They're fine tooth combing
everything. like this interview will be
under scrutiny, you believe?
>> Absolutely. Every single episode I've
done for Gaia and and only uh the at the
beginning when I first started working
at Gaia uh the first uh probably
10 episodes, nothing. the 11th episode
we talked about something and I did uh O
FBI didn't come but OSI contacted me by
phone and I knew a I knew the guy uh he
was a he was a a civilian we had a lot
well civilians in OSI you know we we and
he went he left OSI and came back as a
contractor which and within intelligence
community it happens all the time
>> sure you're never fully Exactly. And he
called me and he said, "Richard, how you
doing? I saw your episode on Gaia and I
want to ask you a few questions." And I
said, "Yeah, what do you need?" He said,
"Why the hell did you mention this,
this, and this?" I said, "It's
unclassified." He said, "No, it's still
classified."
I said, "It is?" He said, "Yeah." I
said, "Well, I assumed." He said, "You
don't ever assume because you know
assume you make a you know." And I said,
"Okay, well, I guess I'm going to get
visited." I never was visited. And this
was in 2018, probably. Yeah. Early or
late 2018. Nobody ever visited me, so I
assumed it's not classified anymore. I I
talked I saw him at a UFO convention a
year later, 2018, at at uh
>> What was he doing there?
>> And
they're always there.
>> Um in fact, in that particular one,
>> which which one was it? 2019 at
Laughlin.
>> Okay.
>> Um there were three uniform Air Force
officers in the audience.
>> Uniform?
>> Yeah, they were in uniforms.
>> What's that about?
>> Well,
>> is that for show?
>> For show, I guess, or they were trying
to intimidate the crowd. I don't know.
But um I w I didn't notice him uh right
off the bat, but uh uh one of uh I think
it was uh Robert Dean
uh cuz Wendle was dead by that time, but
Robert Dean was was there and Robert
Dean came up and he said, "Hey, what's
what's with the uh blue suitors out
there?" I said, "What do you mean?" He
said, "There's two captains and a and a
uh senior master sergeant out there."
I said, "Okay." So, I went I saw him. I
went up to him. I'm a blunt guy, you
know. I come up to him and I said, "Hey,
uh, you know, I'm I'm Richard Dodie and
and they said, "Well, we know who you
are." I said, "Uh,
you guys here on business?" The captain
is was the one that was speaking, the
female captain. Uh, and I never knew I
didn't know her before this. And she
said, "Uh, yeah, we're here just
interested in the subject. Is there a
problem?" I said, "No, absolutely not.
Uh, you're more than welcome. Uh,
whatever you want, cuz there's no
classification in this briefing." She
says, "We'll decide in that later."
>> Wow.
>> Which I thought was real interesting.
Well, I went over and immediately told
George Knap, I said, "George, look out
there." He said, "I saw them. Who are
they? Are they you guys?" I said, "I
don't know who they are. They They just
said they're from the Air Force. They
won't say office, but uh I think you
ought to go up there, George, and ask
him for an interview.
And uh I I don't know if George did, but
I I don't think it it worked. I did have
an interview with George uh there. And
uh I knew one of them was standing back
watching me at the interview. And they
were there for my presentation. And you
know, I I don't care. I They left. They
didn't stay the whole time. They
probably were there three or four days,
two, three days. It's It's still a wild
thing to show up at where dressed in
uniform. I mean, that clearly signals an
intention
>> and an interest. You know, they gave
away
>> a
>> public interest.
>> A public interest. They gave away the
fact that the Air Force is interested in
what was being said at a UFO convention.
>> And what was your talk about?
>> I think that I I talked about Area 51. I
think that was a a you know I do
>> uh PowerPoint that would make sense on
area 51
>> and I and I didn't give away any
classified. I mean afterwards there were
a lot of questions asked of me that you
couldn't answer that I couldn't answer
you know because there was projects out
there that I was involved with that I
that I can't talk about now. I mean
there were there were probably
>> uh right off hand five that I'm not
going to talk about and I will never
talk about. How many special access
programs have you been briefed on?
>> Oh god. Uh there's different types of
briefings. There's a there's a uh full
briefing and limited briefing and then
there's access only. It's called access
only briefings. Um fully briefed
probably
maybe 20. And then again, you know,
don't hold me to that. uh partial
briefings. Uh I don't know because it I
would be working on something
uh and an OSI agent would be working on
something and he needed help on so he
would come to me and give me a partial
briefing and I would help him with that.
Access briefing is is when it happened
right now,
>> like you accidentally saw something and
they had to brief you in
>> or you're the you're the uh on call
counter intelligence officer like Area
51 and they call you and say, "Hey, we
got a we got a uh" and they give codes
and I can't give the codes because I
think some of them are still classified.
They give you a code over the phone.
Well, you know what that code means?
>> Uh that the code like uh purple red. I'm
just making up something. This isn't
really one.
>> Purple red. There's a purple red at uh
such and such. Okay, now I know that's
emergency. You know, I'll get my little
book out and look. Okay, I got to get
going to that and I have to get another
agent to go with me. So, I have to give
him
>> limited briefing.
>> Limited briefing. Well, I don't even
know what I'm do getting to. This is an
access.
>> So, we get out there and we find an a
crash site. I'm making this up. Okay.
Yeah. A crash site. And there's aliens
all over the place and there's toxic
materials all over the place. So I have
a checklist and I now there's a
checklist and so you you think about
this if there's a checklist for what I'm
going to this is obvious happened in the
past. So
>> are you referring to Psalm one uh the
Psalm one briefing?
>> Uh
>> like the the manual the special
operations protocol manual.
>> Something like that.
>> Something like that. Okay. Something
akin to that. something it can
>> [sighs and gasps]
>> um Okay, so to get back to you're in
this parking lot, you've just had this
mindblowing briefing and now you're on
your way to I guess meet a witness who's
a security guard for at Sandia National
Labs.
>> No, no, no, no, no, no. That Yeah, that
was later. Yeah. Right. But when I got
the briefing, I went back to the office.
>> Oh, I see. And I went into my my boss's
office, John, and I said, he said, he
laughed. He's just kind of smiling. He
said, 'What do you think? I said, 'Is
any of that? I used any of that
real? He says, yeah. I said, come on,
John.
>> This is a psychological operation
against me. And he said, no, it's real.
All that stuff is real. And again, I you
know, okay, I'm I got a job to do. Yeah.
All right. Okay. All right. You say it's
real. I in my mind it's
>> Yeah.
>> You know, so I then I go and reinter the
witness in Sandia, the Sandia Guard, and
he explains all this stuff to me, tells
me what happened, tells me that his, you
know, the the the radio in his patrol
vehicle, uh, the engine shut off and all
these things.
same thing I heard in in some briefings.
I thought
and the description of the craft
um
>> saucer-l like
>> saucer saucer shaped and um I thought so
[clears throat] I have to do a report
and I have to investigate this and so I
invest and then I go to the people on
the base to try to see if like the uh
air traffic controllers
the radar approach control did they have
anything coming in during that time
period? Yes.
Uh what did they have on radar? They had
something unknown. Unknown blitch. Okay.
It verifies what his information is.
What time period this period? And then
uh
>> it was a landing by the way.
>> It was a landing.
>> Were uh were there beings?
>> There were beings. Okay. What happened
is there's a uh alarm structure. An
alarm meaning uh there's a alarm on it.
A structure in this classified area.
Okay. And this security guard had to go
out and check this area and this alarm
went off. So he had to go out to
investigate that, you know, why did this
alarm go off?
And this is this gets more complicated
as I talk and we'll talk about MNA
Hansen relating in con in conjunction
with this later. But uh he had to go out
and find out when when he got out there
he sees this flying saucer and he's is
this is his words hovering over this
bunker and it's a bunker uh that's built
in the into the ground and
right off to explain what this means is
there's a bunker this bunker in an
experimental bunker uh to house nuclear
weapons
>> and what it is is you open the blast
doors There's a there's a platform, an
elevator that goes down 60 ft. So, they
would store the weapon here, put it on a
platform, put it down 60 ft. So, if a
terrorist or the enemy breaks into the
bunker, there's nothing in there because
it's underground. And that's kind of
like that was classified. It's not
classified anymore. So, that's the
bunker that he's that he went out to
check on. He sees a flying saucer above
it. Uh, it lands. when it lands, his
engine shuts off. His mobile radio and
his portable radio wouldn't work. No
electricity.
And then we actually know why that
happens. And um so he gets out of his
patrol vehicle, he gets a shotgun. He
has a shotgun and a hand and a sidearm,
but he gets a shotgun out of the the
vehicle.
And these two entities, as he calls
them, gets out of this craft and they're
in suits. They have helmets on uh metal
uh silvery suits. Their arms were
disproportionate to their body. Uh they
have like heavy boots on. They have uh
some kind of contraptions in both their
hands there. And they turned and went to
the front of the bunker. Well, he now
he's a security guard. He has a job to
do. He chambers a round in a shotgun
because they the policy is he can't have
a live round in his is in in the
chamber. So he chamber his 12 gauge
shotgun. He chambers around. They hear
apparently they hear that and the weapon
is taken out of his hand. He says it's
taken out of his hand. It's it's dropped
to the ground. He doesn't He never could
explain to me how that happened. It just
got out of his hand. And that's his
words. Got out of my hands. He they
don't know what to do. Then he went to
for a sidearm, but he couldn't get it
out of the holster.
This thing then the two entities turned
around, came back to the craft, got in
the craft, and it took off.
>> Was the craft like um like one of those
seamless platforms that comes out of the
structure and then returns or
>> He could never explain how they came out
of what they came out of. And we even
put him under hypnosis and all he said
was they came out of the craft. He
doesn't know if the if if a platform
fell. He he he could never explain that.
>> You you hypnotized him.
>> Yeah.
>> That was that protocol. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. We have psychologists that put him
through hypnos hypnosis. Yes. Did you
guys ever resort to um inoculating or
using chemicals on people through
interrogations?
>> I don't think I can talk about that.
[laughter]
>> Okay,
>> fair enough.
>> So, this is your first feray other than
Mario Woods happening where you were not
briefed into any of this and thought
that was just maybe crazy. Uh this is
your first foray into someone claiming
and then I assume this person seemed
legitimate and and sincere.
>> Oh, absolutely. He was and he a former
army. He was in the army before. Uh he
uh I believe he was an MP. Uh he worked
around helicopters, so he knew that this
wasn't a helicopter. Uh he never seen
anything like this before. Uh he's been
working for Sandia for I think 12 or 14
years. Uh unblenmished record. Uh
>> PRP probably as well.
>> Yeah. Personal reliability program. Um
he worked at a he worked in a uh highly
classified
area before he went out on patrol
uh which required it was a special
access program. So he had to have a
special security clear. He had all the
tickets punched. Um,
we gave him a polygraph which was also
pretty standard past that no deception
indicated.
So
that helped me
blend more into understanding
the phenomena of of of
UFOs.
>> So what do you tell him? Do you like cuz
when someone sees military tech, you
tell them it's aliens. What happens when
someone sees aliens? Did you tell them
it's military?
>> Well, there was another agent, a senior
agent involved also with me when I took
the initial report, did the initial
investigation,
uh, did all the reports and sent them up
to to headquarters. The senior agent
then became involved in that and he
somewhat took over that. Now, what he
told them or him
um would have had to been in line with
what he already had a security clearance
for. Remember, Paul Benowitz didn't have
a security clearance. Sure. He had an
industrial security contract because he
did have a contract with the with the
government making uh parts for uh weapon
systems. But this guy had a security
clearance. He's he had he had all the
tickets punched. He worked in a special
access program that involved alien
technology or examining them.
>> Really,
>> he he guarded those areas.
>> So,
it was difficult to tell him what he saw
was government cuz he wouldn't have
believed it. So, there there are other
ways of of of covering that. You would
make him sign an an NDA and
>> or read him in.
>> Read him in.
>> And that's what I believe. Again, the
senior agent handling. You don't know
exactly what happened.
>> I wasn't I wasn't involved in that.
Exactly.
>> There's no So, yeah, when you're briefed
at a certain level, you're not
gaslighting these people. You're you're
you're
probably more likely to bring them
closer
>> into Yeah.
>> If a pilot, and I had these happened, an
A7 uh uh jet pilot, Air Force pilot, a
National Guard, it was Air National
Guard, New Mexico Air National Guard,
had an incident where he had contact
in the air and on the ground. Uh,
I handled that whole case, but I
couldn't tell him that it was an Air
Force.
>> So, he he knew.
>> So, what did you tell him?
>> I I told him he probably encountered a
real thing, you know, although it just
it went away and and, you know, he he
had to he wanted to get back on flying
status because
something like that happened. They take
you off flying status, you know, and so
he he he didn't want to. So I said, "You
need to sign something that that you
promise you'll never talk about it."
"Okay, I'll sign it."
>> You want to get back up in the air.
>> Yeah. That's the thing about pilots
specifically where it's pretty sensitive
in terms of reporting and even even like
personal mental health or anything like
that just like takes you out of the sky.
Um, so when something happens,
let's say because you've obviously with
Paul with the Paul Benowitz case, you
know, you had to keep him going and
saying, "Hey, this is Yeah, you're
right. It is aliens or whatever." Um, so
that you would detract him from what
really was going on in the base. When
things are of potential alien origin,
do you sometimes tell them that it's
just advanced tech when a civilian is
reporting something like that?
>> Absolutely.
>> Yeah. So, would you would it be safe to
assume from a civilian's point of view
that the Air Force Office of Special
Investigations is essentially what they
refer to as the Men in Black from a
civilian point of view?
>> Yeah. um in a way. Yeah.
>> But
>> but but but
the men in black is something entirely
different
>> within government structures.
>> Within the government structure, uh we
had a uh unit within the 760year
intelligence wing at Fort Belvore. They
they were the dirty tricks people, okay?
And um uh they didn't go out and kill
people or anything like that, but
they're the ones if we OSI couldn't
convince somebody or if we needed
something uh that that we couldn't get,
we'd bring in these people. And these
were the bunch of uh we call them the
thugs. I mean, they were the knuckle
draggers. They were the guys that would
uh that the military recruited out of uh
uh someplace else that that didn't have
the unblenmish records. They didn't they
weren't the Harvard grads or the
Dartmouth grads. Uh they were the
>> rag tag bunch ragtag uh probably uh
played football or soccer or rugby. And
these guys uh had been in ballroom
bar alls and and they're the type of
guys that did things off the record so
to speak
>> unethically would you say to some
extent?
>> Uh you know probably.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Um, but because they are not part
of the OSI, they you have plausible
deniability so that if you know anybody
comes back and says, "Hey, you sent
these thugs over who said they were
going to bury us in the desert for
talking about this stuff." You can just
say, "That wasn't us. We have no idea
who those people were."
>> Exactly. And almost all of them were
sheep dipped,
>> if you know what sheep dip is.
>> Yeah. Uh, so they were uh they would
have um IDs uh they were postal workers
or or whatever IDs they they could get a
hold of. Um and uh and they if you
checked it would be legitimate if some
of them might have be worked for some
construction company or something like
that if they were caught. Yeah. Now, uh,
and some were, uh, you know, caught
either by us or by, uh, the civilian
police and there were ways to get them
out of what they they did. And it wasn't
my job. It was Department of Justice
already had been briefed into all this
stuff. So, and I'm not sure how that
worked, but uh, there were cases where
they got caught doing what we told them,
asked them to do.
>> Yeah. Wow.
It does seem like a lot of skull duggery
happens within these organizations to
maintain secrecy.
>> A lot.
>> Yeah. And that's part of I mean counter
intelligence as well. Like there's a
whole other you know when we think of
counter intelligence I think not myself
but I think when a lot of people think
of counter intelligence and especially I
think the names that come up are
yourself and Lu Alzando in this space.
um you know people often
they they immediately go to oh disinfo
agents and there's there's a whole facet
of counter intelligence that definitely
deals with mismal or disinformation.
>> Um but there is also a whole other side
of counter intelligence that deals with
espionage that deals with other
countries foreign adversaries and that
type of thing. So um how would you to
the average viewer uh looking at this
scrutinizing you know counter
intelligence being involved in the
euphology how would you sort of justify
the presence of counter intelligence in
regards to UFOs?
Well, we
the job of the air force office special
investigations
specifically the special projects branch
which I worked in we call them PJs uh
different from par rescue and when I
would say that on air they say wait a
minute PJs are par rescue no special
projects that our code was PJ um our job
was protect
uh materials classification classified
material
special access programs, sensitive
compartment information under title 50,
uh prevent that information from getting
into the enemy hands and we would do
everything in our power to protect that
information. Our job was to protect the
classified
projects, special action, special access
programs or or sensitive aircraft, new
aircraft from that technology from
getting into the enemy hands. And back
in those days, it was the Soviet Union,
the the the red Chinese, uh North
Korean, uh Cuban. Uh so we did
everything in our powers to do that. And
that may involve uh deception operations
which the this public calls
disinformation. It's deception
operations using misinformation. Okay,
that's our job.
>> Counter intelligence
um and counter espionage is part of
counter intelligence. Um we've ran
counter espionage operations against UFO
groups because of who was in that group.
uh somebody that's not native. Remember,
we are a free society.
The Soviets or Russians are not. Back in
my days, it was the Soviets. The Soviets
could penetrate us because we're an open
society. And guess what? The number one
group they always penetrated, UFO
groups. We had Soviet operators in you,
Mufon, cause APRO, all these different
groups to get information.
And this is what people don't realize is
that
muon
the reason we
uh counter intelligence penetrated muon
and appro and cause these other UFO
groups was to keep track of the other
hostile intelligence services
penetrating them. You don't realize
you you can't realize the number of of
not Soviet spies,
but uh I would say Soviet influencers
that were in these groups, not just
Soviets, even the Chinese had had uh
people within the group. And why? Well,
believe it or not,
Mufund or Appro got information that the
government didn't have.
Uh, John Doe sees something.
He doesn't report it to the Air Force.
He reports it to a UFO group uh by
phone. Back then, the internet wasn't
around. And now MUFO MUAN sends field
investigators out to investigate this.
Those field investigators, unless it's
something that is it's going to uh
affect national security, they're not
going to come to the military. So we
have to have people in a group that know
what these investigators are doing in
order to report back to us. So that's
what that complex ne west nest uh that
we that involves counter intelligence.
>> Yeah. I suppose where people might be a
little,
I guess, put off by that information
would be,
okay, you're infiltrating for national
security in order to perhaps fend off
foreign adversaries from getting access
to this information. But with the same
with the same stroke,
you're also
misrepresenting what happened to a lot
of the experiencers, a lot of the
investigators. You know, it's your job
also to mitigate that information in a
way that protects, you know, sensitive
uh sites or real sightings uh protect
the secret from going out. Um, do you
think that that is still in effect today
or I mean I would assume so.
>> Oh, absolutely.
>> MUON, all these different organizations
are completely infiltrated and there's
nothing that goes on there that isn't
overseen by intelligence agencies, you
would say.
>> Yeah, there's a Bill Moore in every one
of those groups.
>> Well, I'm glad you I'm glad you brought
him up. Um, how many Bill Morris were
there when Bill Moore was around?
>> A lot of Bill Moors. Uh but he was he
was a person uh that I recruited, I
handled him uh that we sent into the he
was already members of the group
>> of course
>> and all we asked him to do was report
back anything of significant value. We
call it EIS, essential elements of
information within intelligence that uh
might affect national security
>> but also to disseminate information
>> that came later.
>> Okay. And that's probably
the uh one regret.
If if I had to do it all over again,
I would not be part of that.
I was part of providing Bill with
disinformation
to set send in to discredit the UFO
group. And um there was somebody else
um also doing that within the CIA. Now,
and this isn't classified anymore. Bill
Moore was was being handled by both
because Bill Moore had contacts uh
within the Soviet Union. Uh he knew
scientists within the Soviet Academy of
Science and he was communicating with
them. So the CIA was involved in that
and we were involved in the other side
of it. what Bill was doing. He he was a
very important asset uh to us. And there
was another person that um was actually
fe feeding the disinformation
uh to build more that went to these
groups. Um it it always um I was always
hesitant about that, but you know, I
have a job to do. He had the job to do
and we did it. We did our job. we were
told to do this and we did what we were
told to do. So that's the only part of
of that that I I I I still regret. I did
everything by the book before that I
think we could have probably not I think
we could have changed.
>> What would you have done differently?
I wouldn't have I wouldn't have targeted
people within the group because those
people within that group uh and there
was only one occasion I'm talking about
uh these these two people were
legitimately collecting really really
good information from a person that had
a a close encounter
um in Nevada and um
not far from close to Dallas tested
training range And
we were
we and I and I was part of it. Uh was
trying to convince first of all we tried
to convince these two investigators that
they're not you know they shouldn't be
reporting. They shouldn't listen to this
person.
Uh we've already investigated him. He's
a liar. Just forget it. Well, they knew
he wasn't and we knew he wasn't.
So, and so they had this other agent
uh would had to put more pressure on
these two investigators within Muon. It
was Muon out of Nevada. Uh they're very
good people, too. And um to to try to
convince them that uh they're not to
listen to that guy. And I don't I think
I think at the end they won, we lost
because they didn't buy anything that we
were saying. And sometimes we weren't
always successful in deception
operations. I can tell you right now. Uh
we try our best, but uh there were only
certain things we can do. Even if we
brought in the thugs from the 760 intel
wing, we you know they we had to operate
under the law,
mostly under the law. I mean there was
stretches where you could you could do
things. Uh but uh you know I never uh
went above and beyond the law. I mean I
I I I I knew what our limits were and
there were times when we went right up
and said listen
this is it. We can't do anything more.
Whatever they do they're on their own.
And like I said we don't know we didn't
always win.
>> Yeah. But I mean just even the um the
notion of being fed misinformation or
being you know having that information
injected into a group and then you know
someone like Bill Moore in '89 at that
famous MUON symposium where he confessed
to you know being part of that. I mean
that itself tarnishes
you know not only
his reputation but also the
organization's reputation and we don't
know what information is to be believed
from that point on. So I I would say
that you did succeed. Um there's you
know although perhaps those people
believed or didn't believe or refused to
believe what you were telling them I
think at at the end of the day the
damage is done because as you know in
counter intelligence I'm sure you don't
have to prove something you just have to
say it enough times and then people
repeat it. Um,
in terms of, you know, let's look at
let's take a look at the 80s because
there's a lot of stuff that came out in
terms of like declassified or classified
document leaks. Um, namely the Majestic
12 stuff. Um, a lot of the stuff that
came, you know, to Jamie Shandera and
to, you know, um, I mean to a lot of
researchers tables and then this came
out. Um,
uh, who am I thinking of here? Timothy.
um
>> Timothy Good.
>> Timothy Good and and uh Ryan Wood, you
know, had had a lot of
>> uh work on the MJ12 documents as well.
>> I don't even know how to ask this. What
part of the MJ12 document
was there a part of that that you or
anyone you know of your organization was
involved in putting out there? And if
so, specifically, which part? Well, I
can't answer whether other people in the
organization uh was involved in I'm sure
they were. I wasn't involved in it. The
first time I saw that document was when
>> which document particular
>> MJ12 that Jamie Shander got.
>> Okay.
>> There's a there's a lot more to that
than than just him getting that
document.
He got some he was in Washington DC two
weeks before meeting with somebody
because Jaime was part of another
operation. He was an asset that was
being used by the Naval Investigative
Service which is now Naval Criminal
Investigative Service. Um back then it
was just NIS and they were they were and
I'm not going to go into that details
but he was he went back to Washington.
and he went back to the B uh botanical
gardens. He met there and they told him
some things. Uh two weeks later or
roughly two weeks later, he gets the
document uh in the mail. Uh uh stat
marked Albuquerque, New Mexico. Uh but
that is another thing. Um that's a fake
marking because when the FBI did
analysis on it, they said this isn't a
postal marking. But that is that's
beside the point. Anyways, he gets it.
Um,
what I'm getting at, it didn't go
through the mail system.
>> It was placed in this box.
>> I see. Like dead dropped.
>> Yeah, dead dropped. And so he gets this.
He immediately contacts Bill Moore and
Bill says, "Well, don't do anything with
it, you know, let me see it and analyze
it." And then at some time some other
time I I he shows it to me. Bill Moore
shows it to me, but he shows me a copy
now. And we're in San Francisco. Okay.
He Bill Moore meets me there and we we
were doing something entirely different,
but Bill says, "I got something I want
you to look at, but we we can't do it
here. We have to go someplace private."
I said, "What is it?" He said, "It's a
document." I said, "Where'd you get it?"
He said, "I got it from Jamie." He
doesn't give me the whole details then.
Anyways, I said, "Well, go to the hotel
room." And he shows it to me. I
immediately take it from him. I said,
"Bill, this is classified. Where the
hell did you get it from?" He said, "Oh,
it I it's a copy of a copy." I said,
"Where's the original?" Jamie has it.
So, I take it. I seize that document
being I'm an OSI. I'm a federal agent. I
seize that because it shows
classification on it. So, I said,
"Okay." Okay. So, the I'm here in San
Francisco. The closest uh facility
around a military facility is Travis Air
Force Base in Fairfield. So, I go out to
the OSI office there. And I said,
"Listen, I sees this from somebody, you
know, you need to need to package it,
you know, do the packaging top secret.
You got to go through the the uh armed
forces courier system to get it to
wherever." Anyways, they what do you
want us to do with it? I said, "I want
you to mail it to me at Kirtland." And
so they do that. I sent it to
headquarters.
I sent the when I go back, you know,
four or five days later, I get it. I
package it and send it to headquarters.
I never hear anything more. I I call I
call I said, "Hey, uh, did you get
that?" Well, I know they got the package
because it has to go through an armed
forces courier system because it's top
secret code word. Yeah. I said, and the
guy I I talked to, his last name is
Benjamin. I said, 'Hey, Benji, we call
him Benji. Benji, did you get that
package? Yeah. He said, I he said, I put
it through the channel and it it's been
a month probably and I haven't heard
anything back from it. I said, so what
are they going to do?
I don't know. Out of my hands.
So I go and I thought, well, maybe the
investigative side of it, the guys that
investigate espionage are handling it.
So I get a hold of one of them. I said,
you what what are you doing with that
document? He says, it's been passed on.
I said, well, what are they going to do
with it? He said, I don't know,
but you don't need to know, Dodie. Said,
okay, that I was out of it. I then I
you know I'm somewhat intelligent you
know I went to college I could figure
out what two and two is I thought that's
a disinformation that's a deception
operation that just occurred.
>> Do you think that was from CIA
or from your department? Well,
[clears throat] there's a there's a a a
special
office within the Defense Intelligence
Agency, also the Central Intelligence
Agency.
Uh, it's named differently. It within
the DIA, and it's not classified
anymore, Special Means Committee. The
Special Means Committee creates
documents for mostly counter espionage
operations,
>> right? So, yeah. Passage material and
>> Yeah. If you run a counter intellig a
counter espionage operation, you have to
give a little real stuff in order for
the Soviets to believe it or whoever
you're targeting.
>> Sure.
>> And so they do that.
>> Wow.
>> So I
kind of figured it probably came out of
there. I don't know for a fact.
>> Sure. Yeah. Now, when when this was obby
investigated back in ' 87 and 88,
um the FBI pretty much
targeted the DIA, but the DIA denies it.
So, I don't know. The FBI had help in
Didn't the Didn't the FBI go to the go
to OSI in in determining that it was
bogus?
Now,
>> well,
>> that's that's where the crux is because
whether it's real or not,
I mean, they're going to deny it
outright either way.
>> There was a meeting
when when and I I've found this out
years later, not not then, not during
the years.
>> Uh I was sitting at a UFO convention and
one of the um uh uh Colonel Law, he was
chief of counter intelligence for OSI.
uh he he showed up that towards the end
of this UFO convention and uh I had
actually went to the airport and got him
and brought him there. Anyways, we were
sitting talking and he and
the subject
uh
came up of of Ryan Ryan Woods, doctor
the father
and um he said,
"Wow, I never thought that stuff would
end up where it ended up." And I I said,
"Conel?" I said, "Is that stuff real?"
He said,
Richard, how many counter espionage
operations did you run? I said, quite a
few. You realize you have to give them
the real stuff, some of the real stuff.
And that's all he said to me.
>> So, the MJ12 documents contain
uh some legitimate information
mixed in with some information.
>> But none of that you can confirm. I
can't because I didn't I wasn't author
of it. Just like
>> Yeah,
>> it it's just like when the Linda How
incident happened. I don't know if you
want to talk about that.
>> Sure. If you want to if you want to talk
about it.
>> Um
we all know who Linda How is. She was an
enemy. Now she's a friend of mine. Um, I
was tasked with uh an operation to bring
her in and brief her on something uh
because of what she was doing,
>> the documentary,
>> the documentary she was working on HBO.
And um so
this is this is actually what happened.
uh about a week before she was due to
Albuquerque. OSI already knew that she
was coming to Albuquerque and they they
told me you need to make an appointment
and and and and we're going to send you
something and we want her to read this.
I said, "Okay."
So, uh we she's already contacted uh
Jerry Miller who was part of this. Um
and so I ended up going and picking her
up. Oh, be the day before the afternoon
before this was to occur, we had we had
a a place to to to interview her and and
there was a two-way mirror and she was
everything was going to be recorded
audio and video video and uh I get a
package in from the armed forces
courier.
Uh I opened it and I kind of looked
through it but I didn't really read
everything. the the day of her meeting,
I went out just before I went out to
pick her up to bring her to the gate
because she had to be cleared in. I read
it. I read I went through the document
and I said, "Holy cow, this is
presidential briefing document." But I,
you know, the counter intelligence
officer in me says, "Wonder how much of
this is real." [clears throat]
So anyway, she comes in and I give her
the spiel. I said, "You can read this.
Can't take notes. Uh, I can't can't
photograph it. And so she reads it and
she
she asked me, "How long do I have?" I
said, "You can read it a couple
different times." So she took her
probably 354 minutes. She I mean, she
read everything several times. I took it
back. I put it back in the desk. I
packaged it up. I sent it back to
headquarters. And that's my beginning uh
of of of using her as a source of
information. Now I find out later
that they were going to do this
operation against her and it's being
handled in headquarters. Not not not me
with me. I was just a field agent uh
handling what they asked me to handle. I
wasn't actually the case agent. That was
being done in in headquarters. She was
to do an a documentary uh uh for UF uh
for HBO on UFOs and she had information
that she had obtained from an Air Force
officer who worked at the Pentagon.
My job was to get the name of that
officer
>> so we could run a a case against him
because he disclosed classified
information to her. So that's why I
handled Linda and she was a tough
cookie. I I was totally unsuccessful. I
never got anything from her. Uh she was
very smart. Uh she would give me other
information but names I never get that
from her.
>> Yeah. Linda's um tenacious to say the
least.
>> Yeah. That's a good word for Yeah.
>> Yeah. Okay. But but but getting back to
it,
>> the information that she was reading,
>> you don't know.
>> I I actually only had access to it for
that short period of time because I had
to send it back. I read it. I read the
document. I read the same thing she read
and I thought it was amazing what they
were giving her, but I thought it can't
be real. I mean, I mean, some of it
probably is. Now, over the years, I've
learned that some of that is real and
then some of it isn't.
>> So, what have you created that isn't
real?
>> I create We mean during my time in OSI,
uh, I I didn't create anything.
>> No material.
>> No, I I would not be allowed to do that.
>> No. So, No, but what information did you
pass on?
>> Okay.
>> That was given to you that you know for
a fact wasn't real that people took us
to church.
>> Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um
there was an incident involving a uh a
civilian uh that saw something. It was
an actually an experimental craft. It
was uh the first prototype of the
Aurora.
>> Okay.
>> Which was being developed at the same
time that the F17 was at Tonap. That
same time period. this guy saw this and
I had to give him information
uh on a UFO. I made we made up OSI made
up the story about a UFO
that occurred a sighting of of occurred
the same time he saw this real craft. So
everything I gave him about that UFO was
was false. I mean everything
um it came down from headquarters. I
even probably embellished a lot of that
stuff to convince him and he and he was
thoroughly convinced and then I had him
sign an NDA.
>> Wow.
>> So that was that was one of I mean I
probably did it well I I know I did it
other times. Um this is this is a funny
story about uh Nellis test and training
range while we were out there when I was
out there at at Groom Lake.
Um back in those days in the late 70s
and 80s prostitution was legal in
Nevada. Most counties had prop county
which most of uh Del's testing train the
testing range encompassed NY County a
little bit of Lincoln and a little bit
of Clark. Um,
our job was to go out and recruit every
single prostitute
around the Nellis testing range and pay
them to inform us when an Air Force
person came in and talked about anything
dealing with their job.
>> Wow.
>> And and we did that. And I tell you
what, the best sources of information
are those prostitutes.
>> No way. Because we actually ran a case
against a pilot
>> because of
>> he came in he used a he used one
particular prostitute all the time. He
was a major and he was flying the 117.
>> Oh wow. and he would come in and and and
try to impress her by telling her
stories about the F-119
and he was doing 11719
and that uh he could do all these
strange things and and and
even we could chase flying saucers with
him and all this stuff. Well, when we
visited and well, she called us.
Uh, we had a special phone number and
she called us and she said, "Uh, I got
some information for you." So, she was
at prompt.
>> Were they paid?
>> Oh, well paid.
>> So, wait, the Air Force paid
prostitutes? Is there anything?
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Well paid, but but not for anything,
just for the information. So, I go out
there with another agent and um she we
go in and she says
she gives us his name and she tells us
everything he said.
And I said,
"He told you this stuff?" Yeah. I don't
know if it's any of it's true that they
don't wouldn't know it. I said, "Okay."
I said, "Uh, how often does he come in
here?" She said, "Uh, once every couple
weeks." Well, they could only get off
every whatever it was. I don't know. I
don't remember now. Periodically he
would come in. I said, "Does he make an
appointment?" And she said, "Yeah." I
said, "Next time he calls and make
appointment, let us know because we're
going to we're going to put a we're
going to bug the room." And so she does
and we bug it and we get and he's she's
just asking him questions. Hey, remember
you told me about that plane that you
guys are flying out there and the flying
saucers and stuff. And then he went on
like 20 some minutes talking about it.
So she calls us and says, "Hey, I you
know, he left and I turned it off like
you told us to and we come out get it
and then we go pay him a visit at the
dorm at Tonipa, you know, and you know,
it's funny. He's in this dorm and you
know he's officer Bill he's a major and
he has a suite and then I knock on the
door he opens it and his face just went
>> h
>> he knew
I said you know special agent door OS I
need to talk to you
he says okay I said uh but not here
you're going to go with me we're going
to go over the OSI office which we had
one at Tonipa
he says you want me to bring anything
with me I said no just your ID just, you
know, so [sighs]
put him in the vehicle. He's we get him
in the office, take put him in an
interrogation room and what you do is
you put him in there and there's a
camera and they know the camera's on and
we sit him there and we let him let him
wait
because this is going to be
interrogation. It's not going to be an
interview.
And um that's guy's married,
>> has two children. And so we come in and
I come in with the other agent. I sit
down. And I said, "Major,"
he said, "I know you're going to talk
about." I said, "Shut your mouth. Don't
even talk to me yet."
Yeah. He I said, "When I ask you a
question, you can answer it."
Yes, sir. Yes, sir. And um I tell him I
kind of give him a preamble, not
mentioning anything directly.
>> Sure.
>> I said, "You know, you're a major in the
United States Air Force. you've been a
pilot for whatever it was, 14, 15 years.
Uh you're flying one of the uh most
expensive and most classified aircraft
that the Air Force has.
And um you're married, right? You got
two kids. Your wife's at Edwards Air
Force Base. You're here
and you can't keep it in your pants.
He starts crying.
>> Yeah.
It's not funny, but he starts crying. He
He said, "Okay." I said, "But but but
but before I ask you any questions, I
have to read this to you. It's your
article 31. That's a fifth amendment in
the military." I read him as, you know,
you have a right to remain silent and
all that stuff. And I pulled him the
document. I said, "You need a sign there
on the bottom that you acknowledge it."
He does. I said, "So now we're going to
talk if you want to talk.
But remember what's going to happen if
you don't talk to me when you leave that
room. But you don't have to talk to me.
>> Yeah.
>> And he talked. Of course, he admitted
everything.
>> Yeah.
>> He took offline status. He he they sent
him back to Edwards and he he um
eventually he just took him off that
program.
I don't know really what happened. I
mean I he I think he went back to flying
status, but not anything classified any.
I guess you had to have the prostitute
as well sign NDAs.
>> Oh, yeah.
>> In that case,
>> well, they don't know. Yeah, we do. But
>> they're not liable to really talk about
it.
>> They keep their mouth shut.
>> Yeah, they're good. They're good at
keeping secrets.
>> They're very good at keeping secrets.
>> Yeah. And that wasn't just that was one
of many
>> Sure.
>> cases that we we had.
>> So quite successful.
>> Very very successful. Yeah. I said that
the Air Force spent a lot of money on on
the prostitution around, but we never we
never got anything from it but
information.
>> Yeah. On the books at least.
>> Yeah.
>> Um Okay. So
towards the
end of the 80s now we've you know we've
gone through so many things in terms of
documents coming forward uh prominent
researchers being sort of outed as as uh
you know part of a dis disinformation
campaign. Um
a lot is going on in Euphology.
But then in 1988, there was a TV special
which you're on um the UFO cover up um
on on TV and well you're hidden under
the alias Falcon if I'm not mistaken and
then there's also um uh what was it? Uh
it was Condor uh was the other was the
other person and you
>> Bob Collins. Robert Collins.
>> That's right. and
you go on there talking about a lot of
really interesting things. Now I want to
know did that come from
your own valition or was that was that
an order to do something like that?
Where did that come from? Where did the
the where were the impetus?
>> Well, number one, that wasn't live.
>> That was recorded a year before,
>> right?
Uh, and that was part of another
operation
>> and that came from OSI.
>> Yeah, it came from OSI.
>> So they were because that's the that's
the
>> that was 87, not 88.
>> Oh, 87. My bad. And it was so strange
because you know, you're basically
making public
what you were the same information that
you were giving to Paul Benowitz. What
was the call there? Why go from, hey,
we're going to you we're going to, you
know, keep this contained and control
the situation to now go public with this
thing like what was the reason?
>> Well, well, um,
OSI was trying to this that was part of
an OSI and FBI investigation. They were
trying trying to draw somebody out.
>> I see.
>> And they were hoping that what I said.
Now, at the time I did that interview, I
didn't know about what was going to
happen a year later. Actually, it was
like 15 months before
the October 87 interview
the movie.
>> Yeah. When it came out.
>> When it came out. When Yeah. So, I
didn't know uh
>> that all that the lid was going to get
blown.
>> No.
>> Yeah.
>> And
And so,
they were hoping and I wasn't involved
in this part of it. They were hoping to
draw out somebody that they were looking
for
that had disclosed classified
information to somebody else.
And so
I had a script.
>> Okay. And were you aware of what parts
of that script were fabricated,
confabulated, and which parts were maybe
real?
Most of what I said was um
was real. Uh but there was some probably
misinformation in there.
>> And what I don't remember, you know, I
don't remember.
>> Okay. The strawberry ice cream probably.
>> No, the strawberry ice cream was real.
Really? Absolutely. The strawberry ice
cream.
>> Go back and ask Linda Howell. Okay.
Linda How had the um she interviewed
>> and the
>> the captain that lived with Eba one,
>> okay,
>> from 47 and he used the the strawberry
ice cream. He that that was started back
in 1980 when Linda Howell heard that
from the captain.
>> And what was the reason to include that?
I feel like that feels like
disinformation.
>> It does. And is that why?
>> Yeah.
>> Because it's so going to believe it.
>> It's so outlandish. We're just going to
throw that in there.
>> Yeah.
>> Wow.
>> Um, so that was officially authorized.
It was a It was a project. It was a Is
was there a name to that project?
>> H I'm sure there was, but I don't recall
it. I don't recall what the name is now.
>> And then the whole idea of like the
aviary and that sort of that was what
was that about? Well, the Averary was
created by Jamie Shander and um and and
and others. I can't think of her name.
Uh Tracy
um
what was it? What's her name? Anyways,
that was created by them.
>> Mhm. because of of the uh the working
group that I was a part of that uh Hal
Putoff, Kit Green, uh Scott uh
uh uh Scott, what's his name? Uh Senator
Pel's aid. Um and then others that we
would meet. Richard Helms was actually
the Falcon. He was the the part of the
controller. I was just a a really low
person on a on on a totem pole, so to
speak. And I I did a lot of fetching
things for them and and the security
clearances and stuff for them when they
had meetings. And
Jamie Shander got wind of that and he
named these people the Averary. We we
found out about that after the after,
you know, it was out in the public. I
think uh uh Phil class
>> Phil class was
>> interesting stuff. Uh what's also
interesting and this is something I
wanted to mention and not something I've
ever talked about before but um
so in
there is evidence that I have that shows
um you familiar with David Copperfield?
>> Yes.
>> His father was stationed in Roswell. I
have a picture of his ID from 1945.
at Roswell Air Force Base and he was
counter intelligence.
>> Hello.
>> At Roswell.
>> I didn't know that.
>> Now I have Yeah. Not a lot of people do.
Um nobody does actually. Um but I I did
some digging because I have um I just
thought this was an interesting overlap
as well being as that
most recognizable
deception artist of our time, David
Copperfield, had a father who who may or
may not have been part of the Roswell
coverup. It it was it was the uh driving
force uh for David's show in Vegas for
many many years uh which involved a UFO,
an alien, like he had this whole, you
know, Vegas show. And what started that
was him going through his father's
things when his father passed and
finding his ID.
>> Never knew that.
>> Yeah. So there's his ID. And if if you
see here, it says uh squadron C6.
And that's not an actual uh squadron
that flew.
>> Wow.
>> Yeah. So, the last name's different.
Obviously, it's not field.
>> Yeah.
>> That's amazing.
>> Interesting.
>> Very interesting.
>> Yeah. So, he he might have known more
than uh I believe his mother was also
stationed there near Roswell and
>> Oh,
>> so yeah.
>> Interesting. uh interesting tidbits.
>> Very interesting.
>> Um were you ever tasked,
you know, because we we hear this uh you
know whether it's you know I interviewed
uh John Ramirez who was here as well
who's you know ex CIA Lou Alzando and we
know for a fact now that
>> you're never
fully an ex information agent, you know
what I mean?
Were there ever instances where you were
called upon, and I'm not going to, you
know, ask you for specifics that those
are classified, but were there ever
instances that you were called upon
after you left the OSI that had to do
with UFOs?
>> Yes.
>> Okay. Um, would that be
prior to 2015 or after?
>> Prior.
>> Prior. Never after.
>> No, never after.
>> Okay. And this was between 2002, 2003
and 2015 somewhere in there where you
would
>> I left government service in 1988.
I was recalled in 1991.
>> Okay.
>> To work on a project and again in '94
and then um
after 2002 I was a contract employee for
a while.
>> You were contract employee for the OSI.
Just we'll leave it at US intelligence.
>> At US intelligence. Uh and it had to do
with the UFO topic.
>> Not all of it. Um
I would say 50/50. Was that in a
monitoring capacity or in a
sort of did you have to inject yourself
into this in order to uh
you know throw throw some information
into the mix that perhaps wasn't true?
>> No.
>> Um I worked for Dr. Putoff from 94 to
2007.
>> I see.
>> And so I see I'll leave it at that.
>> I understand. Okay. Someone else was
interested in how put offs work.
>> Okay. Wow. Interesting. Would Hal be
aware of that, you think?
>> Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
>> Smart guy.
>> Very smart.
>> Brilliant person.
>> Yeah. Can't put much past him.
>> No.
>> How many saps do you think he was right
into?
>> Oh, god.
You know, it was so much when I first
started working for him. Uh, I didn't
have a I it took for a while for me to
get a DARPA clearance. Okay. And he
would be working on things in his own
skiff and and I would he would tease me
but he would never tell me but um when I
got the clearance um I it was only on a
need to know. Uh there were times when I
would go into the skiff and there would
be a meeting and we'd sit and talk and
then there would you know we'd talk for
an hour the scientist and his other
techs and then he'd say Rick bye and I'd
leave and then we're working on
something that I didn't have access to.
I just didn't have a know. But um I I I
would say dozens and and probably more
he had
>> and and this isn't a secret but he had
or proprietary because there a lot of
things I can't talk about.
>> He had um
in a certain area of the lab um
pieces of extraterrestrial material that
he was trying to figure out. And is that
part of the reason why you were
contracted?
>> Um,
partially.
>> No, partially. I It was be because of my
uh counter intelligence work and and
what I could do and what I could uh
because a lot of what I did was I went
out to talk to people. He would send me
out to interview people that had some
connections. Uh I interviewed uh you
know we went to South Dakota and I went
to South Dakota with some other people
from the lab to dug up something because
in 19
58 I think it was um can't remember what
year but in the 50s or early 60s UFO had
crashed on this uh uh ranchers uh land
and he never told anybody about it. He
buried it.
>> No way.
>> Yeah. He buried it. And his grandson
is the one that got a hold of somebody
who got a hold of somebody who got a
hold of Dr. Putoff. And then I was the
one that went to um South Dakota to try
to find what what did you bury? And the
the the only thing that the grandson
knew because the the his grandfather was
dead and his father was dead. It was
just a grandson.
>> Yeah. And it was that it was buried in
this one area that there's no nothing
grows around it.
>> And they water it and water it and
nothing grows. So this was the place. So
we um
that's about all I can talk about.
Did you see anything?
>> We saw a lot.
>> You saw what they took out of the
ground?
Somebody somebody somebody saw what was
taken out of the ground and some and it
went someplace but but at that time it
was turned over to the government,
>> right, Pat?
>> No, this was in uh
>> No, it went to probably Groom Lake, I
guess. No, this was in uh
>> um
2002, I think. Or
>> Okay. Wow.
>> Yeah. Or no, 200. And the crash would
have happened in in the 50s or early
60s.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Is that near was that near any type of
radar base?
>> It was um
south
west corner of the state.
Um
south of Keystone was it was just Yeah.
>> So
>> was I don't you know there's Ellsworth
Air Force Base. It's still there. Uh
it's it was a couple hundred miles from
there but um
>> was um
>> you know I think it was actually near um
no later on a minute man site.
>> Okay.
>> But
>> in the 50s I didn't have
>> You didn't have one there.
>> Well that's really interesting. And
that's um so you weren't so you were
right into that program. You were right
into that recovery then. I guess
>> I was right into Yeah.
>> Well, partially. I I didn't handle
anything. Yeah.
>> I didn't analyze anything.
>> Uh I just set everything up and then
other people came in and did it.
>> So, you had partial access.
>> Yeah. Just limited.
>> Limited. And how many
limited partial accesses have you had to
other crashes,
would you say?
>> Four, I guess. But that was that was
during my OSI career. That was Yeah,
that was in the 70s and 80s.
>> So you had you had uh quite
>> I was actually at one crash site. I was
there.
>> Uh and but the crash happened years
before, but they found it. They
discovered it and uh I went there uh as
part of a team to do the counter
intelligence work regarding the people
that found the witness. But this crash
site had was in 60 sometime in the 60s
>> and it was undiscovered
>> and un it was undiscovered and a mining
uh uh exploration team from some company
was doing work in this shaft and they
found it in this minehaft
and now that's another I mean I don't
know anything other than they found it
Um and what when we went there,
>> you went on site.
>> We went on site,
it was assumed,
uh because of of a lot of factors that
the invest other investigators, not me,
uh because of where it was that this
thing had crashed
here outside this minehaft and these
miners didn't know what to do with it.
So they put it in the mineshaft and you
know they had it in there and I don't
know why they never reported it to
anybody or maybe they did. Uh there's no
record that that I know of. Maybe there
were records. I you know don't hold me
to that because uh we went there and
they had found it in the shaft
>> and they extracted it
>> and extracted it out. the government,
the Dart Dart team, the Astar, special
down aircraft recovery team did it and
they pulled it out and you know they it
took them I don't think they even got
inside of it until they got it to Tonip.
>> And now jump ahead when I was out there.
This is before I went to Tonip I mean to
uh uh Nellis Test and Training Range.
Um, I checked on that while I was there.
Uh, and they had they still had that
craft there.
>> The disc?
>> The disc? Yeah, it was a disc. And And
it was a small one. It was not that big.
It it was uh
>> You saw it?
>> Yeah, I saw the craft. Yeah, it was
there at the craft site and I saw him
pull it out and it was it was a it was
probably um 5t in diameter.
So they think but they couldn't get into
it. They can't they couldn't find an
opening.
>> So it was like a solid
>> Yep. Well, they did eventually but not
during that time when I was there. I
didn't see anybody.
>> How long did it take him to get in?
>> I I don't know. Like I said, that was
1980 81.
Uh I was there 84. They got it open four
years, maybe three or four years. I
don't know exactly how they did that.
>> Plasma cutters or
>> uh something. And and what I don't know
is whether they found bodies in there.
There would have had been many bodies. I
mean, they might have had to be 2 ft
tall.
>> No, it was very small. It was like a a
drone ship or something.
>> It It could very well be. I think I
think somebody told me uh that was
probably a a scout ship.
>> Mhm.
>> That crashed for some reason. There was
damage. It's funny because they couldn't
get in it, but the part of it
was indented. You know, I guess when it
hit the ground or I don't know exactly
how, but there was part of it that was
indented. So, you know, I I always, you
know, of course, I don't know technology
like others do, but why did it take them
so long? I mean, we had diamond cutters
and all sorts of things back in those
days. Uh, but they they obviously got it
open, but I don't know what they found
in there. I wasn't ever privy to that.
>> Was that the first time you saw with
your own eyes?
>> Yeah. UFO?
>> Was that the last?
>> No.
>> Let's go. Tell me about another UFO you
saw.
>> Um,
while I was at uh I can't I got to be
very careful. Uh while I was at uh uh
the the the
story I gave you earlier about being on
call and getting a call, I did. Uh me
and my partner went out to a place
outside uh the Nellis Tess and Training
Range up near Warm Springs. Uh there had
been a crash and um that's about all I
can talk about it because there's a lot
of other things that happened that uh
could very well still be classified.
>> Were there beings involved?
>> Yes.
>> You saw the beings?
>> I didn't see the beings. No,
>> you saw the
>> beings were Well, let me say this. When
I got there,
>> it was cleaned up.
>> It No, the bodies were covered.
>> Oh, I see. So, I didn't actually I can't
say, you know, I say, "Yeah, I saw the
bodies." Well, no, wait. They covered.
So, I'm not going to say that because I
didn't see the bodies. I don't know what
they they they looked probably five at
least five foot. I'm just looking at
>> Yeah. You assumed that those were alien
bodies.
>> Yeah, I assumed they were alien bodies.
Yeah, they they were covered up. Uh the
other agent that came later that had
access to everything in the world about
that, um he took over. I was just
remember I was a duty on call and I went
out there initially.
>> I set up the counter intelligence ring
as we called it.
>> Uh the the uh highway pat the state
trooper and the uh um
NY County Sheriff's deputy that was on
scene uh because
>> you had to debrief them. Yeah, I did all
that stuff.
>> And um
the
they contracted a trucking company
uh out of um
Hawthorne, Nevada
to come and put it on a flatbed.
The I guess we didn't have one. I
government didn't have and I had to make
that arrangements with that trucking
company. Um, and I had to make sure that
the driver,
this is funny, when I was making the
arrangements. Um, this is Hawthorne and
there's an army base there at Hawthorne
in Nevada. It's a depot where they make
bombs. And so this trucking company
worked out there a lot.
>> They're used to classified scenarios
>> or or sensitive. Yeah.
>> Sensitive. Yeah. So, I said, "I need a a
driver that has had been in the military
uh and I can take orders." And the woman
I was coordinating this with said,
"Why?"
Because I just need it or we'll have to
go to another trucking company. She
said, "We we we take bombs all the time
out to Hawthorne." And and I said,
"Listen, man. This is what I need." So,
I get this guy. He's the foreman of the
of a certain section of the trucking
company. He uh you know I I go there and
I sit him down. I said, "You're gonna
you're gonna pick something up and
you're going to take it from here to
there?" And he said, "Okay." I said,
"You you know, you you can't ask
question." My lips are sealed. I said,
"So
you agree to do this? You agree to sign
this?" He said, "I've done it before." I
said, "You've done it before?" He said,
"Yeah." you talking about the these
round things? And I said,
"What? What do you mean round things?"
He said, "Well, before I took picked up
a round thing and took it out out to the
base."
>> Okay, you're the guy.
>> Wow.
>> You're the guy I want. And so he, you
know, he went and did did the thing.
There was
>> You watch it happen.
>> No, no, no. The other agent that was in
charge of that. I did all this setup.
All
>> the paperwork stuff, all the setup. I
did not I was not there during that
time.
>> That's what counter intelligence Yeah.
does. They funnel all the information.
You create the classifications. You talk
to you debrief the people, give them
cover stories, tell the agents what to
tell the press, like that type of thing,
right?
>> Exactly. And the the craft itself,
that's the other guys.
>> Did you have conversations with those
guys?
>> I would have to coordinate. Yeah, it
would be coordination.
>> I mean, philosophical conversations.
Um,
>> did you guys speak about the origins?
Did you guys speak about, you know, what
you think it is like off record? Like,
>> of course.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
>> And And were they able to give you
information that you had never even
thought of or did they seem legitimately
like
really wellversed in this topic? like
they like they had information that was
really pertinent to this like like
origin or reason or you know whom, why,
where, what like all these speculative
things that we talk about. Did you get
access to some of that?
>> No.
>> Through those conversations,
>> we would talk philosophically,
but I didn't have a need to know.
>> Right. So, it was all
>> that information. And I tell you what,
with the intelligence community, I don't
care if you're my best friend. Uh, you
might be able to take a bullet for me.
You know, we wore guns, too. Remember?
Uh, but I I'm not gonna I'm not gonna
tell you something.
>> Yeah. You're not gonna break your not
going to do that. And that's the way it
was. Uh, we would talk philosophically.
>> You talk about aliens
>> about Yeah. Like, you know, these guys I
I bet you there are I bet there's a base
on Mars or, you know, we or maybe maybe
uh Venus isn't what it, you know, things
like that. We would talk about
>> where they come from. Maybe they're
coming from Mars, maybe they're coming
from uh Pluto, you know, things like
that we would talk about, but they would
never say, "No, they they came from, you
know, uh Epsilon uh already or some, you
know, no, they would never say that."
>> Okay,
man. Does that What does that feel like
seeing something like that? Well, going
all the way back to my briefing and not
not believing any of it, uh, every
single
uh time I was exposed to an
extraterrestrial craft or something to
do with an extraterrestrial being. Um,
it strengthened my belief that
everything that I was briefed on is is
fact.
But what did that feel like?
scary in a way because
[clears throat] one of the things uh
that people don't like to talk about, I
don't like to talk about it in great
details is I was brought up a Catholic.
Um I went to progill school. I was an
older boy. Um I believed in God and you
know did my prayers and and did my all
my uh you know confraternity and and
everything. and um
um I spent some time in a monastery
before I even went to high school. So I
I had a strong religious belief. Now
one of the questions that people always
ask me and I ask myself is okay, God
created the universe, so I guess he
created the aliens, too. Did he?
Um, some of the things we learned or
Linda How was written about EBA 1. Uh,
he claims that they put a uh, Eban on a
humanoid on a planet 2,000 years ago.
Was that Jesus? You know, these
questions I have always had. And when
when I had the briefing, I have to, you
know, okay, wait a minute. Is this for
real? Okay, it's for real.
it are these things made by God? This is
something I think about and other people
have too. And if you connect the dots,
could it affect the way other people
believe in their religion? And that's
something I really don't like to get
into. I mean, I I've settled myself, but
there were other people out there that
uh you know, the the revelation that
this guy several years ago uh did on a
UFO convention that some of the
extraterrestrial characters are similar
to Tibetan uh characters. What does that
mean? That they lived here on Earth or
they they created the Tibetans or what?
you know this is all these questions uh
that uh that people have to think about.
Yeah, it is uh it is pretty it does get
pretty existential
when you start thinking about that and
thinking about uh
you know the uh what that means
for us here, why we're here, why they
want to be here with us or why their
presence is here. And I'm looking at the
list as I speak to you here of like
these different these different names
And um
I I have no idea what to make of this.
Like personally, I I don't know what to
make of any of this. What to make of
because, you know, as you can probably
assume, someone who's very wellversed in
counter intelligence. I'm a magician.
probably the most skeptical person out
there in terms of you know understanding
methodry in terms of um you know all all
the um all the methods on how to obtain
information secretly or how to misdirect
and all of this you know I'm given all
this everything you're telling me and
it's a melting pot of a thousand
different things
with all the years that you have, you
know, built into this and all the
information that you've gathered, all
the secret things that you've seen that
you can't talk about and the people
you've spoken with and the projects
you've worked on.
Is there
one overarching
thing that neatly packages everything?
Allah um you know passport to Meonia
Jacqu Valet control system or are we
dealing with like a thousand separate
things?
>> Separate things.
>> You think so? I think the one
the one thing that convinced me
uh beyond anything else that I had
access to was listening to this Air
Force sergeant uh female who was
abducted countless times. Went through
literally torture by these
extraterrestrials having marks on her
hands. They took her fingernails off,
her toenails off. Uh she was bleeding
from her vaginal area almost every after
every abductions. Uh bleeding from the
eye. Um rupturion her eard drum once. Um
and then the a lot of things that we did
uh in a surveillance
uh capacity
to confirm what she says. Uh that
convinced me that there are
they weren't humans doing this to her.
They were extraterrestrials. Now were
the extraterrestrials interdimensional?
I don't know. Uh you know, there's an
argument can be made, but there were
there were nonhumans doing this to her.
And I wish I could tell you how we know,
but believe me, the government knows
that these were extraterrestrials that
were doing this to her.
>> You surveiled it.
>> There was We actually did. We had a We
knew based on a lot of things that I
can't talk about, methods and sources I
can't ever talk about, but we knew when
they were going to do this to her. She
lived in an apartment complex outside
Kirtland Air Force Base. She was
stationed at Kirtland and
she uh lived in a two-story real small
apartment and she her bedroom was
upstairs and we knew uh that she would
be taken uh during a time period and we
set up a surveillance
and that's about all I can say.
That's a fact. And she's a
whistleblower.
And she would be the number one person I
would put in front of a camera if I was
a member of Congress. She is a
legitimate whistleblower. She's she
retired from the military. She's a
grandmother now. She she taught school
for some some time. She lives around the
DC area. Uh I'm sorry. She lives around
the uh Baltimore area. Um but she has
been interviewed by uh many of the US
representatives and and and at least two
senators and some of their staff. So
she's legitimate.
Whoa.
>> Now the problem [laughter] is what
happens when she tells her story. uh you
know Steven Greer is a friend a nice
person I've worked with him before but
his his uh mentality regarding they
can't be hostile they're all benevolent
is absolutely out out the window and
I've told him this to his face I said
Stephen you're relying on faulty
information you're being misinformed and
and I'm telling you from a listen to me
because I'm a counter intelligence
officer people within your circle is are
misinforming you because there are
hostile extraterrestrials out there and
that's the ones we have to worry about
>> and you've seen this firsthand.
>> I've saw this firsthand.
>> I have so many questions that you can't
answer.
>> Well, well,
I've seen
her sitting in front of me talking uh
about this, you know, as far as
firsthand. No, we I wasn't there when
she was doing, you know, how this stuff
was happening.
>> But you saw the surveillance images or
sorry, the surveillance
um apparatus, whatever that was. Um
whether they filmed it or whether they I
don't know, but you saw that.
>> I was involved with it. Yes.
>> You were involved with it with like
setting up the surveillance.
>> Yes.
>> And you had enough to go on.
First of all, how you knew that was
going to happen is a whole other
discussion that I'm sure you can't have.
>> No. And because I didn't know
>> what the protocol was,
>> the technical stuff,
>> but they knew.
>> Yeah. We had Air Force, Intel, we had
FBI, we had uh OSI, we had NSA,
all part of this because
the in order to if you can imagine uh in
order to understand
something that's alien to us, we have to
have the top technical people within the
NSA and and these other uh agencies
involved to create something, to build
something. Plus, there were contractors
involved in this, too.
>> So, this is a multi-pronged,
multifaceted, multi-ep departmented
sting operation
in order to capture this
on some type of media that you can then
review.
And it was successful.
It was yes that was successful. There
were some that weren't but that was what
was successful.
Were obviously she was made aware and
she was part of this operation.
>> Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Absolutely.
>> And
I mean did you get to interview her
after?
>> Yeah. We thwarted the She didn't she
wasn't abducted that that that night.
>> You thwarted it?
>> Yeah. We prevented it based on all this
stuff and we got her out and we got her
to a safe location because
there was always doubt
not in my mind but
other people's mind there was an FBI
agent working on this and he he didn't
believe words she said even after apolog
he he was just I don't believe any of
this stuff but after that night.
He sat in a I'm not exaggerating a bit.
He sat in a room when we had her at out
at the base. It wasn't OSI office. It
was a very sec another secure facility
out at the base because we didn't know
if this these things were coming after.
But we were in a protected area at the
at the base. It was a Sandy laboratories
area and FBI agent sat in a room uh
crying
because he didn't he doubted her. He
said, "All these year, all this time,
all these, you know, eight months or
whatever it was, I doubted her and she's
telling the truth."
>> So, she felt bad.
>> I see. I believed her. He didn't. He was
always He was always skeptical about
everything. This is
>> rightfully so. I think that
>> Yeah. Right. Rightfully so. And
he had a lot of background. Um,
you know, he was a U
Vietnam vet. Uh, he was in a special uh
or the steadius operations group. Uh, I
don't know if you know what that is in
Vietnam. The guys worked behind the
lines, you know, they drop him off in
Laos and, you know, for 100 days or
whatever it was. I mean, he went through
a lot this guy and and he is a tough,
rugged FBI agent, but he had a, you
know, he it changed him. It actually
changed because I worked with him after
that on other cases, including the uh
Paul Benowitz's case, and um he was a
different person as as I saw in other
people who worked that operation. Uh
they they
I think a lot of them were scared.
I mean,
if you see something that's literally
out of this world and your mind can't
comprehend it because if you if you go
into something and you just like a
child, they they did the experiments
with child putting them in a hostile
envir not a hostile environment, a
strange envir. They can't comprehend,
you know, and and humans are same, you
know, we were the same way. We can't
comprehend what we're seeing or how how
we're going to rectify it when you
you're you're given and regardless of
the training because we went through a
lot of training a really good training
in the intelligence operations course. I
mean, they would put you in a situation,
not UFO situations or anything like
that, but they would put you in
situations where there's no no wind, but
they made you go all the way up to the
end and you you figure you're going to
die, you know, in in the exercise or
something, but they do this over and
over and over and over again. Stress
inoculation. Yeah, exactly. I was just
going to say stress inoculation. So,
when you're out doing the job in the
real field, nothing's going to bother
you. nothing's going to scare you. But
regardless, I mean, not much scares me.
Uh, but after that, seeing what I saw or
listening to her tell her stories, you
know, I'm thinking, "Wow, sure. I hope
that doesn't happen to my girlfriend or
then I wasn't married or my mother or my
sister." I mean, why are they picking on
her? and you know all these that you
worried about yourself
and why why they pick her? That's the
the question that I I don't know the the
answer to. I'm sure maybe the government
does.
>> Are they on here?
>> Yeah, they're on there.
>> Which ones are they?
>> Uh the hepoids,
the uh I'm sorry, let me show you the
insect ones. Quatilloids.
>> The ones that look like insects. Yeah,
>> those were the ones that were
>> but this is a complicated part of it.
They are able to manipulate your
observation of them. I mean
>> sure
>> they can manipulate mine.
>> Can they manipulate the camera?
>> I don't know. Never thought of that.
>> So was there something that you saw in
that operation?
>> I can't talk about Okay. what I saw.
>> Um,
>> but I can tell you they they're real.
>> Can I Um,
okay. So, they're not the the
quadaloids, these ones.
>> Yeah,
>> the aliens, the insect humanoid types.
>> Yes.
>> Um, it says they have a high IQ.
Why would something with a high IQ be so
violent? That's trying to get inside an
alien mind, and we can't do that.
[laughter]
>> I'm going to show you something. You can
have this. This is yours.
>> Okay.
I'm going to show you something. Um,
okay.
Wow.
Does that look like something you've
seen before?
>> I can't say.
>> I think you just did.
Was that
>> in pictures in in a document? Not not
not in real life.
>> Is that the same thing that was involved
here or is that different?
>> I better not say.
>> Okay.
>> No, I'm not going to say.
>> Okay.
>> Is that going to be on your air?
>> Uh, that hasn't been made public.
>> Okay.
>> Yeah.
>> You're going to make it public?
>> Um, not anytime soon.
>> Okay. No, I better not say that.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Um, so if I didn't make it
public, you could confirm or deny
>> probably. Okay. Well,
>> maybe one day.
>> Um, that's Should we take a break?
>> Let's take a break. All right. That's a
good time for a break.
>> Okay. I mean, we're to transition from
something like that. It's just so
jarring to hear that to I've never once
heard of an abduction being thwarted. I
think that's a new one for me. You know,
I've um we we hear about abductions.
We hear about people trying to film them
unsuccessfully. Something always goes
wrong. Murphy's Law, some type of, you
know, whether that's people at
Skinwalker Ranch filming stuff and
things going haywire. And um but never
had it occurred to me that you know
other than the instances of people
saying you know uh sort of the Lord's
name or something like you hear about
stories like that and that sort of fends
them off. Is that is there any merit to
that?
>> Well there there [clears throat] was
part of that she she was religious um
and she she wore uh St. Christopher's
cross and but that didn't that didn't
stop anything.
>> Yeah.
>> They they didn't seem to
>> and there's a lot more. She she h she
would argue uh with them. Uh this is in
the beginning. Okay. We're going back
months and months and months.
>> Yeah.
>> Uh when she first came to us,
>> which
we didn't believe her, I tell you the
truth, we didn't believe her. Um she
would tell us that she would have
arguments with him uh because of God
and um and they kept asking her who who
is God who is God who is this human God
and you know she couldn't explain
uh so um
but she would pray
and afterwards she would say why are
they doing this to me and again the
government the air force um and
[clears throat] let's let's say this the
abduction started and she wasn't she
didn't come to us right away she was
going to uh the base uh hospital or the
the sick call
>> and she didn't know what it was she
thought she was having dreams or you
know what whatever it was but she was
having you know fingernails were taken
out well they thought they she was doing
it to herself, you know, self
mutilation.
Um, she was in a a very sensitive uh uh
career field. Uh, and so they were
careful. She had PRP, so they were very
careful of that of what she claims
happening to her.
So they took her off the job and put her
in another in like an administrative
office uh within her squadron and that
upset her because you know she liked the
job she was doing but these things were
getting worse and worse. Finally, this
doctor
based uh physician who was an internist
who had been co-opted by us because of
other things um saw her and he
immediately called us and that's how she
became involved with the
he said you need to interview this woman
this girl this sergeant. Um I said okay.
So uh me and this uh female agent
interviewed her and u she never
mentioned aliens or anything like that.
Okay, nothing like that. She's saying
this phenomena is occurring to her where
somebody is taking her and doing all
these things to her. Now at that at that
time she was living on the base. She
hadn't moved off the base yet. She's
still living on the base. And I thought,
well, you know, she lived in an all
female back then. They weren't co-ed.
She she lived in a female dorm. That was
the only females in there. And there
security, you know, keeping the men out,
so to speak. It was like a house mother.
And
>> sure. Um I said, "Well, who's getting in
your room? How how would they get in
your room?" "I don't know." She says,
"You know, we just couldn't understand.
And why were they doing this to you?" At
at that point it was the fingernails and
the toenails
>> that were removed
>> being removed.
>> All of them or just
>> No, no, no. Just one or they would cut
them
and they would take one off and they
they scrape the under under uh the the
skin after the nail has been removed.
And so we, you know, we checked with the
bay. Why? Why would anybody be? Maybe
somebody had a fetish. Uh there were
perverts,
>> deviant behavior.
>> Deviant behavior. Some guy liked uh
toenails. And what what you know and and
we had all sorts of I mean we had our
own sex on the OSI remember had a
investigative side, a criminal
investigation side. These guys
investigated rapes. We you know get
those experts in. I have no idea. I
never heard of that. You know, you know,
guys have, you know, people have
fetishes and and perversions, but
nothing about moving nails or anything
like that. So, we couldn't figure it
out, you know, and so then it would go,
you know, four or five months and
nothing and then it would happen again.
And like I said, initially was just
fingernails. Uh she did have her at one
point her eard drum punctured
her her right eard drum and then uh then
it started getting worse. Then she went
in one night to the emergency room the
base hospital emergency room. She's
bleeding from the vaginal area.
Uh, she had holes
poked between her on her left foot,
between her big toe and her first toe,
like somebody put a rod in there, but it
wasn't bleeding.
So, you know, the guy in the emergency
room, of course, he's just a regular
doctor. He couldn't figure it out. He
calls OSI, the criminal people, because
he said she'd been raped. Yeah.
>> So they went through the whole rape
protocol and call in a gynecologist and
>> the gynecologist said
no, she didn't have sex. Somebody
inserted something into her vaginary.
So at that time they admitted her
because they were thoroughly convinced
she was doing this to herself. Self
mutilation.
So she was in a hospital for I don't
know how long. And we interviewed her,
I think twice, maybe three times while
she was in the hospital. And she was so
upset because she said, "I'm not doing
it to myself. I'm not doing it to
myself." So then she they sent her down
to um
uh Shephard Air Force Base in Witchaw
Falls. That's the Air Force Psychiatric
Hospital down there. So they sent her
down there to be thoroughly evaluated
because they're saying she's nuts. So, I
don't know how I don't remember how long
she was down there, but a while. I you
know, a couple months or something.
Anyway, she comes back because the
psychiatrist says there's nothing wrong
with her. She's not do that. In fact, I
read the psych psychiatric report from
this uh psychiatrist. In fact, we had
OSI at uh uh Shepard Air Force Base go
talk to this psych psychiatrist who
wrote this example. make sure that he
was like
>> it was a sound she or she and she said
she's not doing it to herself. It's not
self mutilation.
Some outside entity is doing this. This
is in in her report. And so we get it
back and and I thought, wow. Well, then
we thinking, well, she has a boyfriend
that she doesn't and they're
experimenting doing, you know,
>> goofy things each other, you know. Um
because in some uh relationships uh uh
gay or even even heterero uh insertion
of something into the cavities it can be
you know a game or something. So we kind
of thought that and we we brought her in
for an interview and we and she admitted
having a boyfriend having sex. She
wasn't a virgin or anything like that,
but her boyfriend uh belonged to this uh
uh squadron. Um I can't remember the
name of the that left
went TDY or temporary duty all the time.
I mean, he he'd come back for a while
and he'd go I think he installed
equipment or something like that.
Anyways, so then we interviewed him. He
didn't do anything like that. We made
him do a polygraph. I mean, no, he never
hurt her. He never harmed her. Um but he
said
he said at night, you know, she he would
spend a night with her and um you know,
after sex or something and then he go to
sleep, but she'd she'd talk in her sleep
or she'd scream in her sleep
or she'd wake up
uh and and yell and scream. many times
he said this happened and he thought
well somebody's in here or somebody's
now he was going to her dorm room and
you not supposed to happen you know so
he thought that maybe somebody was
trying to catch him doing something and
that's one reason why they move she
moved off base but well she made
sergeant moved off base so these all
things all these factors are building up
and building up so um we we had we're at
the point we don't really know what to
do when so finally we asked her to take
a polygraph
and she took a polygraph she passed it
and then we had to take now this is
something I can't go in a great deal to
deal with but we have this uh
intelligence service has this hypnotic
polygraph system that very very rarely
is used where you put somebody on your
hypnosis and you polygraph them. Okay.
And it the technique I can't go into.
I'm not a polygraph examiner, but
there's certain people that have to do
this. I mean, the just can't be a
regular polygraph examiner. And most of
ours were psychologists. Okay. Anyways,
she went through that and and passed
because
according to them, not me, but according
to them, when you're in hypnosis, you
can't lie.
>> So
that you you can't
You can't uh cheat a polygraph.
>> You can't cheat a polygraph. Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> So that sent the flag up and in and
headquarters and everybody in DIA and
that's when the full wrath
of the government came in on her side.
>> Whoa.
And then that's where the sting
operation began to get set up. Did they
already have a protocol in place that
they were going to act on?
>> Yeah. So they already had something that
was like kind of field tested.
>> Yeah. But I don't know anything about
that. I was never involved in any of
that.
>> Sure. But they came in. All right.
Here's what we're going to do. We're
going to set this up and do this this
way. Briefed her on that and then
and then it [clears throat] happened.
>> Well, let me go back a little bit.
>> Uh, one of the things they wanted when
she she moved to off base apartment. It
was just outside the base that that that
a quarter mile out out the basin
apartment complex.
uh they wanted us to place um
covert
uh devices in in the place. Now we don't
do that. We have a technical service
people that do that. There's ways
>> without her knowing.
>> Without her knowing.
>> Do you think if she knew it wouldn't
work?
>> Well, they they do. They did. They think
that's the way they think
>> that that like if she knew they knew.
>> Yeah. But it's it's it's a divi it's a
device that we can't ever use this in
court. We can't use it against her in
any kind of administrative. It's
something that we're going to collect
and keep and never tell her. Okay? Now,
we do that a lot in a lot of cases in
FISA warrants. If they're noncriminal
FISA warrants, if I get a FISA warrant
for your house, I'll place bugs in
there, but it's only for counter
intelligence collection. I'll I'll go
and get
>> Could never be used
>> never being used in court. We go to a
federal court and get a criminal warrant
then that can be used against you.
>> Sure. Yeah. Wire taps and
>> wire taps and stuff. Yeah. Title threes,
fours or fives. Anyways, so we we did
that. We did what headquarters wanted us
to do or OSI technicals.
>> And this is uh video and audio
recording. Uh, no it's just uh I think
it's uh just audio first. I think it was
just audio. I don't video came later but
I think it was just audio initially and
I think they they put in uh something
else later but anyways the audio uh
recorded everything uh and and well I
can't go into details
>> but you can hear the beings.
>> You can hear voices. You can hear voices
more than
>> more than one.
>> Male, female,
>> um,
>> indistinguishable.
>> Undistinguishable. I don't I you know, I
only heard a small portion, maybe 10.
>> Oh my gosh. What was that like hearing
that?
>> Well, it
>> is that frightening.
>> Yeah, because it was echoing. It was
like It was like somebody was talking
through one of those uh you know those
uh cheerleader.
>> No, just a cheerleader uh
>> you know cone. the phone, the old time
cheerleader, not not the electric ones,
>> like a tin cany sort of voice.
>> Exactly. Yeah, that's a good good point.
And um and then of course they analyzed
all that the the pe the tech people. I
didn't do any of that. And then later
they put put the the the camera in, but
it verified everything everything she
was telling us is there.
>> And that's why
there's a lot of other steps that were
taken. A lot of other people came in, a
lot of other equipment was used and you
know sources and methods and I'm not
going to go into
>> how clear was that footage.
>> Um I never saw video. I saw only the
audio. I heard the audio. I didn't see
the video.
>> Okay.
>> But the audio was very convincing to me.
>> There was more. The thing about it is
it was like she was in a room
full of people with these talking
through cones. It wasn't just one voice.
And I I thought, well, at first,
>> they're speaking English.
>> English. Yeah. Speaking
>> broken English. How clear was it?
>> As clear English as you and I speak or
you speak, maybe I don't Whoa.
>> No, it's it's it was English. And well,
let me go back.
We what we uh after we put the bug in
and we heard this, they wanted us to go
in and do a surreptitious search for any
recording devices. Okay, so they hear
the voices. Okay, she's making them up.
She has a tape recorder or something,
you know, something. Okay, so we did
well, not me, but OSI did. You know, our
experts went in and they can go in and
put everything back. If this was like
this, they'll put it back. you know,
they'll take pictures of everything. And
they went in and they didn't find it.
They She had a uh a real toreal, one of
these old Sony Realtore tape recorders.
Yeah. Like that. And And that's it. She
And she had a radio, you know, regular
uh radio uh AMFM radio, but she didn't
have anything else in there. But this,
they took the tapes and listened. It was
recording. It wasn't projecting
anything. She didn't have anything to
project the the audio, you know, you
know the
>> she was trying to record herself.
>> Yeah. No, she wasn't doing anything.
>> She wasn't using that at all.
>> So, they you know, we sent that up to
headquarters. They saying h you know,
these voices are English. You know, they
everybody's thinking alien English
human. Uh why is she why are they
talking English to her? You know, why
are they doing it through her mind? and
all these things, questions that people
that I would be asking too.
>> And because when I first heard that
small portion of I thought
>> she said an orgy. That's what it kind of
sound like.
>> What did they say?
>> They were telling her things, telling
her to do things like lift your arm,
spread your legs,
>> things like that. Oh my gosh. Lift your
arm. Oh, they I forgot they they did
things in her armpits, too. Uh I forgot
that I they did that
>> they were doing this in her room.
>> In her room? Oh, no. They well yeah
initially in a room. Now
here's I can't go into a lot of details
but
this is before
she was taken someplace. Okay. So she
everything up to that point was done
there either in her room on the base or
dorm room in her bedroom on the base or
the apartment upstairs in the bedroom.
And
after we did what we did, after we, you
know, interviewed her, uh, because we we
eventually said, "Listen, listen to this
tape."
>> Oh, we've recorded you.
>> We recorded you. And I said, well, first
of all, we said, "Listen, we're
investigating this and we did something
and we want to tell you about it." Well,
she kind of figured out something. She's
smart and and I said, "Listen to this."
And she listened. She said, "Oh, yeah.
That was them. I said,
and and dumb me, dumb dumb dumb uh uh
person like me. Well, not dumb, but why
are they speaking in English? I asked
her. She says, I don't know. Ask them.
You know, I don't know why they were,
you know, why are they speaking in
English? She says, I said, they always
speak in English. She said, yeah. I
said, she said, I don't understand
alien. Why would they? Well, I
understand that, but I'm I'm I was
saying why are they uh verbally saying
that and not maybe in your mind like
that we think? She said, "I don't know,
but they've done that, too. I hear them
in my head." That's what she she says.
So, we thought, "Okay, whatever." Uh,
now what do we do? Um, but then
we missed opportunities
and they took her. They would take her
out through her window
to a craft
and then she would go someplace and then
they would bring her back through her
window
>> like Linda Cortiel.
>> Yeah.
>> Type thing.
>> And she would be in a room.
She was in a b a bubble. She says a
bubble. It was a bubble.
>> A round room.
>> A round room. And she was on a table in
the bubble. And these she saw then these
ugly she saw the actual insecttoids
come in and they come right up to her
and this is this is the times that she's
hearing them in her head. They're not
moving their but they're they're
badgering her. They're saying who is
God? Who is this God? I don't like to
say that but um what's his name? Where
does he live? and things like that that
she's asking because she's praying.
She's she's when she's abducted, she's
praying. I think I said that, didn't I?
Um well, she she is confused
and then there's and then in this room
in this bubble, they're doing all these
things to her. Uh you know, examining
her and more evasive all the time, more
evasive. and then she would lose
consciousness and find out find herself
in a bed or in her bed in her apartment.
Um,
the only thing I can say is there are
some people uh during this time that
were thinking that these
uh extraterrestrials
uh couldn't uh couldn't be in the same
environment with a human and that's why
they come in this bubble. They had to
keep her alive. they had to have oxygen
and whatever, but when they went out,
they they they were in their own
environment. I don't know if I I know
somebody one of the uh DIA guys are
talked about that. Apparently, they have
uh other cases that they worked on that
I had no knowledge of.
So, that's why uh the government went
above and beyond to do something to help
her and they did
>> to this day.
>> I don't know. I I I I'm sure
>> she's I I spoke to her in Washington DC
in 2022 and she's a different person. I
mean, she's hasn't had any abductions
in, you know, 30 30 years or whatever it
was.
>> That's uh it's terrifying. Yeah,
>> it's a terrifying and and but to know
like I mean it's just so strange the
>> like
what method was used to thwart them? How
did they Was it guns? Was it sound? Was
it like lights? What how did they get
them out of there? How do they stop it
from happening?
>> I can't I can't go into detail.
>> Yeah. Wouldn't that be really important
information for people out there to know
in case they wanted to stop it?
>> It's not guns. It's nothing like that.
It's uh technology.
>> It's a frequency.
>> It's just technology.
>> Interesting.
>> I I don't know. I'm not the scientist. I
I I
>> You don't know the method that
>> um I know how they use it, but I don't
know what's behind it.
>> Okay.
Interesting. Um
Okay.
All right. We'll we'll move from that,
but we'll put a pin in that for whenever
she decides to come forward. Maybe we'll
have you back and talk about it. Well, I
have her back, too.
>> Maybe have both of you in the diner
>> when she Yeah, that would be great. Once
she talks, man, that I mean, she's going
to be wanted by everybody.
>> Of course.
>> Of course.
>> And I probably have an inside with her.
I mean, all I did for her, all we did,
and just me, but OSI did for her. Not
not just OS was I, but the entire realm
of the government. I mean, she had NSA
and and everybody working uh to to tow
this.
>> It's really alarming.
Um
because you know what's hard Rick in
this topic for me is and I'm sure you've
come across this as well.
You have to walk a line where one side
of you says, "Okay,
either this person is telling me the
objective truth of extraterrestrial
visitation of whether it's mutilation or
whether it's just experimentation,
whatever that is, or I am actively
indulging in someone's potential
psychosis."
And that's the line that I always find
very difficult because on one hand I
want to be I want to be the person who
people can trust to come to and say
these things and who feel safe and
secure in in in saying them. But on the
other side, if this is all invented,
then I'm actually not doing the right
thing. Um, I'm I'm I'm gaslighting and
I'm I'm making this worse somehow, uh,
you know, by by allowing them to sort of
perpetuate this potential,
you know, psychotic episode. And so,
you know, something like that,
I'm sure, affected you in that same way
where like, you know, there's a lot of
times where I'm sure you couldn't tell
if it was real or not. Even today, I'm
sure with people telling you stories,
how do you discern? Right. But then that
gave you some objective truth. Did that
change how you felt about previous
abduction cases?
>> Absolutely. Absolutely. And and she was
one of the truly convincing
cases. We had others
that were not convincing,
>> right? that that I mean you could
one of the one of the things that was
developed I have to be careful is the
way uh to evaluate there's something a
widget I'll call it a widget that you
telling me you're abducted I'll bring
that widget in and that that widget will
tell me whether you're telling the truth
not a lie detector anything like that
it's something else that you just have
to It It's too scientific for me to
>> Of human origin.
>> Yeah. Well, [laughter]
I'm not going to say.
>> Well, because I watched the movie A
Disclosure Day. Have you seen this
movie?
>> Yes. Yes.
>> So, in there there's a widget.
>> Yep. [laughter]
>> Um, is that not unlike the widget you're
referring to?
>> I'm not going to say.
>> Okay. But because I found it very
strange in that movie that that was
brought in because I'm like, we don't
really hear about things like that at
all. everything else in the movie seem
to track whether it's the the psychic
overlay or the u the sort of lingering
psychic abilities that someone has after
having an experience these screen
memories
uh the childhood abductions there's
there's so many things in that movie
that really track and and cut deep for
you know people who follow experiencers
but that one thing stood out to me and I
was like what the heck's this
>> maybe he got uh some inside information
>> do you think that's the
I think he did. Yeah. I I I think Yeah.
I'm
>> 100%
>> 100%. There's some things in there that
he gotten
>> He was briefed on.
>> He was briefed on. He was right in.
>> Absolutely. Absolutely.
>> In that specific movie.
>> Yeah. That that movie.
>> Okay. What? Well,
>> is the widget one of them?
>> I'm not going to say, but [laughter]
there are Yeah, I'll say the Muji is
true. I I I they can't do anything to
me. But
there's a lot I heard from a very
reliable source that 18 minutes was cut
out of that film because the government
says you can't you can't possibly show
that. Now, I don't know if it's 18. I
some says six minutes and some says 18.
There's some sections cut out because if
you w I watch it twice because there's
reasons why I watch it twice
and I analyze
there's they jump you can almost tell
where it's cut
>> where they cut the thing.
>> Excuse me. Yeah. Because I you know I've
not I've never edited anything but I've
been on movie sets and I know you know I
know what was filmed and then what was
cut later and what scene was you know.
So yeah, I'm I'm positive.
Now Spielberg will will say it's sensors
or something, but sensors don't care
about UFOs. I mean, if it's sex or
something, you know, perverted, maybe
they'll cut it, but sensors. Nah.
>> Yeah. And what I found interesting, too,
is that normally movies depicting some
type of government faction or department
will have to acknowledge them in the
credits. They didn't.
>> They didn't. I thought that was really
interesting because even a movie like
Elio which talks about you know there's
space force in there and uh that you
know
>> we are very grateful for space force and
the air force and the department of
defense and and yada yada. So what's the
reason why they wouldn't
>> because it's so real that they don't I
don't know I you know they want to touch
it.
>> It's you know it's
>> what part what in what part of the movie
do you think was cut out? Where do you
think where do you feel that that was
cut out? The ending was supposed to she
was supposed I Well, this is what I was
told.
>> Yeah, sure.
>> Um,
>> what source told you this?
>> Uh, somebody in uh the company
uh
>> at Universal. Somebody at
>> No, Altrin Altrin. Uh
>> oh, his company. Yeah, his company.
Spielberg's company.
>> Yeah. Somebody said
>> there was more to the ending than was so
that maybe that's what it was cut out. M
uh she was supposed to say more and she
was supposed to go into she was supposed
to say it and then the alien voices
they
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> at the end and they didn't do that.
>> Wow. Cuz I I think like many people felt
the shortcoming of that ending. Like it
was just so abrupt and strange that they
would end it there. I was like what? I I
stayed for the end credits. There's got
to be more here. Me too. Yeah. But but
yeah, this I think the ending uh and
then there's um when when he first
uh got into the uh alien head thing to
try to talk.
>> Uh they cut some of that out. Um I think
at the beginning they also cut it out
some things out.
>> And you're saying they cut it not for
time or anything, but for
>> I'm saying it. Oh, I see. I don't know
if I don't know. I'm just saying others
have told me this.
>> You you think
>> I wasn't there but others have told I
mean it's on the internet. I mean you
look people they saying they cut it out
for this they cut it out I don't know
but but my friend who works there
>> said yeah there's they they did cut out
some and and they always cut out film
you know but
>> yeah I was scanning all the uh the sort
of images that the news station was
playing simultaneously. I was like,
maybe there's something in here that
they, you know, soft disclosure that
they left in.
>> Well, as I understand,
there's uh a few people out there and
and I'm actually going to go visit one
next week uh who saw a longer version.
>> Oh.
>> And he surprisingly told me this. Uh he
said, "Oh, they cut a lot out of that."
I said, "Yeah, that's a rumor." He goes,
"Oh, I'm not telling you rumor. I saw
the longer version. I said, "You saw a
longer version?" He said, "Yeah." I
said, "I got to come out and see you."
>> Where did he see it?
>> At a special showing.
>> He works for the government, too.
>> Really? Was this showing in California?
>> Yeah.
>> Palm Springs area,
>> you know.
>> Was it?
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Interesting.
>> You know,
>> I know they had a screening there.
>> Yep.
>> And I know there was some uh there's
some private jets landing.
>> Mhm. two DARPA guys. Okay.
>> At least two DARPA guys.
>> An Air Force colonel.
>> Because it happened um during contact in
the desert.
>> Oh,
interesting.
>> Yes.
>> So that Okay. I'm going to have to talk
to somebody.
>> Yeah, I'm going to too next time.
[laughter]
>> That's interesting. Um okay,
I want to talk about something a little
more trippy. Um, since we've gotten into
some really trippy things. Um, now, you
know, there is
>> there's so much I'd love to talk to you
about, including, you know, Serpo,
including more about Project Aquarius,
and I mean, a Dolce base, like all this
all this stuff is is uh very
fascinating. But one thing that I came
across that I thought was really
interesting
>> is I had um I think a mutual friend on
here, uh, John Stewart.
>> I know John. Yeah,
>> good friends, John.
>> Yeah, John's a good guy. I like John.
Yeah.
>> Um, you know, the internet gives him a
hard time. Not entirely undeserved.
I think I think uh, you know, and John's
definitely going to watch this. Uh, but
I, uh, I do think John sort of pokes the
bear, so to speak. He's got a lot of
gumption. He's somebody who, you know,
his background is just riddled with
someone who kicks indoors and doesn't
really, you know, he's boisterous. He's
he's all of these things.
>> Um, which I think, credit to him, uh,
gets him into places and into
conversations that most don't get
uh into. Um, and so one of these stories
is the story of this Carthusian monk
in I think northern Vermont or
something.
>> Yeah, Vermont. Yeah.
>> And the story is if if the people at
home haven't watched this, the story is
as follows. uh that he had someone
reach out to this monastery because this
monastery was found by remote viewers
during, you know, the whole Stargate era
or maybe a little prior or after. Um but
they remote viewed the monastery as
being as housing people who will help
them communicate with the being that
they had at S4 or at Area 51 Groom Lake
or Papoose.
And so they ended up going there and a
Carthusian monastery by the way is like
one of the most sacred. There's only one
in the United States and uh these people
take a vow of silence. Their whole
existence is to do nothing but
contemplate like God.
They have the right to refuse being
called upon uh by the church. Like
that's how coveted these people are. And
because of this, you know, they they
have a lot of wisdom and a lot of, you
know, sort of this this higher
connection potentially. and and they
were eventually brought in and flown to
this secret undisclosed location to
communicate with this being.
It is my understanding through
conversations with John that you may
have also had some small part in this or
an interest a vested interest in this
story. And is that safe to say?
>> Yes. Yeah. I I I knew of an operation
that was occurring at Groom Lake. I
didn't know uh it was Cthusian monks.
Okay. I knew there was a pro there was a
a project
um that they were bringing people in to
uh S2 Annex,
which is where the uh we call it the
creature containment facility. They had
special facilities for these
extraterrestrials that we found or gain.
I I don't know how we got them. Uh
because a lot of them had to have
special environments to live
and that these people that they brought
in and again I didn't know at the time
in ' 80s that they were Gusian monks
that they were able to communicate with
them. Now that's it. That's that's 1980s
era. Okay.
>> Was that a project you were read into? I
was partially right into it. Yes.
Because
[clears throat] one of the um
one of the vans uh that they they
weren't flown in to uh Goomb Lake. They
were uh bust or they had a van. Uh the
government used a van
>> from Nellis. the they they flew into uh
uh Las Vegas
uh now [clears throat] Henry Harry Reid
airport and then they would bust him up
to uh Nellis and they would spend a
night at Nellis and something was going
I don't know what happened at Nellis and
then they would truck them bus them out
or truck them out there. Well, one of
them got in an accident and at at up
there uh I think just south near Rachel
anyways. And um we knew that they were
uh very uh important officials. We
didn't know who they were. And so, you
know, they an accident happened, the
highway patrols there investigating it.
We had to go up and interface with the
highway patrol. So, I knew these I knew
that they were some special and we
actually uh got another uh van from
Groom Lake to come out to pick them up.
So, and then take him out there. So,
that's my involvement with this. I knew
and then uh one of the agents uh
Harrison was his name who was actually
involved this counter intelligence
operation for S2 Annex. Uh he he knew
what was going on.
and he had to give me limited access
because of what I did. And I because I
came back and I said, "Okay, how do you
want me to there's certain codes we have
to use in reports. How many how do you
want me to code this?" And he goes,
"Well, they're they're going up to uh S2
Annex and they're going to be uh
interpreters." I said, "Okay." Well, not
interpreters.
>> Sure. in a in a sense of what we could
write down would be interpreters. That's
it. Now jump ahead
many many 30 some 40 years
the story came out uh that uh from
another person um within uh uh
John's realm of of of of circle so to
speak uh that told him the story that
there were two Carthusian monks
that had special gifts to be able to
communicate with these
extraterrestrials.
And apparently, I mean, again, there's a
lot of whole I mean, a lot of things we
can't put together here,
but these two were still alive. Uh they
were living at at this uh monastery and
like you said, it's a very closed
monastery. It's like they were hermits.
They they
>> It looks like a bunker.
>> Exactly. They they they you can't visit
the place. Uh we we went up tried to
visit the place. Um they there it's
called
>> Who's we? You and John?
>> No, me and another guy went went up
there. Uh and at the bottom of the hill
they have a gift shop and they make uh
they have gift shop. They make honey.
They have they make other things amongst
to to you know to to to substain
and but you we tried to get access to we
knew their names uh the brother John and
brother but we didn't know anything more
about him and they said no you can't
they don't have visitors once a year
they can have a family member visit them
but these two don't have any family and
they're very old and they're in, you
know, like a hospice up there or
something. So, we could never get up
there. But what we noticed was that
there was a Vermont state trooper
that would patrol from the gate where
the uh gift house, gift shop was up the
road and down. I thought that's odd.
State troopers are patrolling a private.
Why is that? Well, we we went to this
local state police barracks and they
basically said, "Get out of here." You
know, none of your business what we do.
And so we did, you know, could uh and we
did um records, freedom of records
checks, it called from Vermont. And all
we got back was that uh somebody pays
overtime. It doesn't say who. Some
somebody pays the troopers overtime cuz
what they're doing is overtime pay.
>> Yeah, sure.
>> And that's it. That's all we got. We
didn't have anything else. No names. No,
I think we got the troopers names. Uh I
think I I'm not sure, but that's it. We
couldn't get every up there. But this
other person
uh who worked at Area 51, his name is
Jean,
who actually was a director of security
at Area 51 back in the 80s, told the
story of of these two monks that they
were in fact gifted.
Now
where they got gifted from,
you know, we some people surmise that
they might have gone to the Vatican and
the Vatican had special powers or they
knew or whatever. I don't know.
>> Or maybe just through the vow of silence
itself. You know how if you dampen one
sense, the other senses might start to
increase.
>> That's a possibility. Anyways, they were
the ones that were able to communicate
with this particular species of
extraterrestrial.
>> Which species?
>> Uh, I'm not sure. I think the grays that
one of the grays.
>> And these grays told us all this
information. And that's part of the film
that John is talking about
>> the alien interview.
>> The alien interview.
>> You You feel like that film is real?
>> Oh, yeah. I know it is because the guy
that smuggled it out uh spoke Victor
>> at at a No,
>> no. the guy who gave it to Victor.
>> Yeah. Gave it to Victor, the Air Force
sergeant that smuggled it out. He worked
in the audio visual uh lab at at Groom
Lake. Um he had access to where he could
copy that, right? He had
>> Yeah, you would have to Yeah.
>> the the video or whatever how they did
that. I think it was on a
>> And it was during a time they were sort
of digitizing everything.
>> Digitizing it, right? Exactly. And so he
was able to smuggle it out, keep it, and
eventually gave it to Victor. And then
the story of Victor.
>> You don't think that that could be
passage material?
>> No. He spoke to us uh a couple different
times
uh the technician and he uh and he
doesn't want his name because he still
feels well he could still be prosecuted.
>> Unauorized disclosure class of
information. There's no statute of
limitations on that. Yeah, but I mean
you'd have to admit to something else.
>> I know. I [laughter] know. But uh you
know, he emphatically told us that
that's what he did and that's why John
knows what the chain of events was.
>> Sure.
>> Was and and so
>> you're convinced without a doubt that
that is a real alien that we're looking
at.
>> I am. Yes.
>> Any other video online that you would
say that is without a doubt real?
Whether UFO or alien?
>> There's a couple.
>> Which ones? I'd have to show them. I I
don't have them right here.
>> Okay. We can talk about it. We could I
have some that I'll give to you.
>> Okay.
>> You think it pretty sure is real.
>> Okay. Not the Skinny Bob. Nothing like
that.
>> I'd have to see it. Okay. Because
there's two different ones named Skinny
Bob. But yeah.
>> Okay.
>> I'd have to the the one the most famous
foot fake one was the one where that you
see the military officers holding this
doll. It was a doll. It was a joke
actually. Uh, somebody took a picture
and now
>> they're claiming it was an extra trust.
>> Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. It was a doll. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
>> Has a doll. Anyways, um, yeah, we can
>> What about there's this video where it
seems like it's an a crash site or
something. Um, maybe in the 40s. It's
sort of sepia
brownish hues. And there looks to be on
a stretcher like a tiny body and like
military officials. It's very brief. Do
you know this one?
>> No, I don't.
>> Okay, maybe I'll show that to you
afterwards.
>> Yeah.
>> Um, cool. Okay. Well, yeah, I don't know
where I sit with that. That's a weird
one because on one hand
I,
you know, you look at that video and
parts of it are,
>> you know, alarming because it, you know,
looks like a being that's in distress
and being sort of tampered. But the
other part of me is like this kind of
looks like a puppet. This kind But
again, I don't know what an alien looks
like or how it moves, right? So maybe
that's the only way I can describe it.
But when I see it, I see it, you know,
kind of doing doing this here.
>> Yeah. It feels like it's puppetry. Um,
which leads me to believe that at the
maybe at the very least like this was
made
to replicate a real video, you know, and
I think John I think that's where he
sits as well.
>> Yeah. Uh,
>> you don't think that that was the case?
>> I I don't think so.
>> Like this guy smuggled out a real video
of
something that was recreated.
He just unknowingly smuggled out the
recreation. Do you don't think that that
is a possibility?
>> I guess it's a possibility. Uh but I go
back to I know the facility. I've been
at the facility.
>> I saw closed circuit
uh watching a closed circuit television
camera of an alien inside. I went in
there to interview somebody. I wasn't
supposed to see this. I was in there
watching this and I asked the guy that I
was supposed to be interviewed. I said,
'What's that? He said, "Oh, they're
talking to one of the visitors. They
call them visitors." And I I watched,
you know, I watched maybe, you know, 20
seconds, 25 seconds of it. And then this
colonel comes in. He said, "Uh, can I
help you?" And I said, "Yeah, I'm here
to interview so- and so." And he said,
"You're not cleared for here, sir. You
need to get out of here." I wasn't
cleared for their but I didn't know that
they were doing this. So, I know that
they do that.
>> Yeah. They weren't trying to pull one
over on you. They didn't know you were
there.
>> No. So, I had to get out. And then when
I got out, he said, "Where do you work?"
I said, "I'm OSI." And I showed him my
OSI. He said, "Oh, okay. Never mind." I
guess he assumed I was cleared, but I
wasn't. So, what I had to do when you
when you uh get access to something
you're not cleared for, you have to
report it and you know, all these
seizures. I went back to the office and
I told my boss, I said, you know, I told
him what happened. And he said, "What
did you see?" And I told him, he said,
"Uh, fill out a form 18 and it's like a
a form that uh that I had acknowledged
that I had access to something. I was
unauthorized."
>> Yeah. And he said, "I'll sign off on
it." And they'll do it again. You know,
he had to counsel me or something.
>> There's a couple forms you had to fill
out. So, I know that that that happens.
I saw it
>> and it was the same
>> similar. Okay.
>> With a similar I mean I can't say
>> big head big head large but it was it
was in a like a
one of these um swings that you'd put uh
somebody that was disabled in you know
these uh
>> swings. It it was in a swing like a
harness
>> and it had straps around him. His head
looked exactly like that one. And uh I
didn't see the people. I didn't see the
whoever was in the room, but it was it
was moving like it was talking. But, you
know, I said I only had short period of
time to watch. I would want to watch all
of it, but because it really perked my
interest, I thought, "Holy they
got him in here." Yeah. I thought I knew
I what the facility was,
>> but I never, you know, I wasn't there
was an OSI agent that was responsible
for that area. It wasn't me, but I knew
it was there. Now I know what they had
there. At least one.
>> You've had so many interesting
encounters. Um
>> I wish I had more. [laughter]
>> There's never enough.
>> Never enough.
>> But you you talk about it so flippantly
like how how do you get to that point? I
feel like a lot of people,
you know, I don't know. I don't know how
I would process all that information, I
guess. And I'm just kind of it's not
every day that you get to, you know,
see something like that and then even
know how to process it. Like I don't
even know how I would process it. Well,
first of all, you didn't go through all
the prerequisites to get becoming an
intelligence officer. You didn't go
through all the psychological testing.
You didn't go through the intelligence
operations course that prepares you for
the unknown. So, that helped. But I'm a
human being and yeah, there's a lot of
things that I saw that I can't explain.
The briefing that I had in 1979 that I
didn't believe, but then I realized yet
was real. Uh some other things that I
had access to, uh to this day, uh I'm
not sure what I saw. I mean, I saw it,
you know, with my own eyes and there
were other people with me when they saw
it, but I can't explain it. And so,
yeah, there's a lot of things that I
can't explain that I saw. And there's
things that I did that I was told to do
and I did it because I that's my job.
I'm following orders that I wish I
didn't do or I wish I didn't see. And a
lot of that as were abductions
because after the sergeant's abduction
and all her case uh it was very
difficult to believe anybody unless they
had you know really really really good
proofs. And there was a case another
case I was involved in. I I wasn't I
wasn't a case agent for it. I just had
very very very limited access to it.
Another female she was a dependent wife
of a captain. She she wasn't in the air
force. She was a dependent wife. You
know what that mean? You know what that
means. And uh yeah, your mother.
[laughter]
And um so she had an experience
that I took the initial report on
that
made us believe that she
was having an affair and was covering
the affair with this supposed
>> But it didn't turn out that way. I mean,
like I said, I only had a little part of
it. Very rare little part of it.
>> Did you bring in the widget?
>> Brought in the W. They they brought in
the widget
>> and that confirmed it.
>> That confirmed that she was telling the
truth. The facts to the case. And if if
we have time, I
>> we have plenty of time.
>> Okay. Uh she's driving uh she leaves
Kirtland. She's driving on the
Interstate 25 to Colorado. Her uh I
don't know, some relatives live in
Colorado. She has her I don't know a
small child I think seven month or
eightmonth old child in the back seat in
a car seat. She's driving. She gets near
Springer, New Mexico, which is uh you
know about 40 miles from the Colorado
state line.
>> Okay.
>> And uh the car she has problems with the
car. She pulls off the side of the road.
It's just before the first exit going
into Springer, New Mexico, little little
town. And all of a sudden the car lights
up.
She feels dizzy and she loses time. She
wakes up at Eagle Nest Lake, which is 70
miles away to the west. She doesn't have
her child with her.
She doesn't know where she is. She
doesn't know what happened 6 hours
later. Well, fortunately, a New Mexico
State trooper saw the vehicle at the
side of the road, pulls up, looks in,
sees a baby, doesn't see anybody around,
you know, and calls and takes care, you
know, takes care of the child. Uh, but
then he he does his investigation and
finds that this woman, you know, runs
the plate and finds out this woman is is
supposed to be in a car. He calls back
to the base and the gets a hold of the
husband who had been working or
something something a captain and said
no my wife left uh to go to uh I think
Publo Colorado to visit relatives and
they said well we found your baby in a
car but we can't find her where would
she be
a fisherman jump up the eagle nest lake
it's big lake in northern New Mexico he
finds her walking along the shoreline of
this like and he asked him, "Ma'am,
what's wrong?" And she's all excited,
crying. I don't know where my baby is.
Uh he he where where'd you come from? My
car. My car. So him and another
fisherman are looking all over for a
car. Thought that there's only one way
down at a road. They can't find a car.
So they call uh We didn't have 911 back
in those days.
>> Was 411, was it?
>> Yeah. No, it was zero operator. Uh he
well he had to go to a place to call. He
left somebody in char of her and drives
to this gas station uh you know 7 milesi
away you know calls and so uh the law
enforcement in there is state police.
They come down there. Well they know her
name because the other trooper over in
Springer found the vehicle. And so they
take her and they they immediately take
her to a hospital. And the the closest
hospital was in Raton, New Mexico, right
up near the state line. That's closest
hospital cuz she was uh
>> delirious
>> delirious and and suffering from uh pain
all over her body. So they take her up
there and fortunately the baby was taken
there too to the to the uh uh needle
natal care or the or the pediatrics care
unit there. So they inter they examined
her and said, "Well, man, you you've
been you've been raped." And she said,
"Oh, uh, no, I I was in my car." She
tells a story. Well, jump. The next
afternoon, the captain comes to our
office with her and tells us a story
and and I take the rep, you know, I'm
there and listen to the captain and
she's she's out in a waiting room. She's
not in back my because my area was all
secure. I listened to him. I said, "This
is what she told you?" Yeah. I said,
"And she was raped by somebody." Yeah. I
said, "Well, well, why why do you think
it's UFO related?" He says, "She was
taken out of a vehicle into the into the
flying saucer."
Okay. I don't don't believe it. I said,
"Okay." So, I said, "Well, we'll
interview her, but I have to have a
female agent." So we we had them but
they one was out. So we had to wait a
while and we get her back there. We get
the female agent and she tells us the
story just as I told you that she's
driving and she pulls off and uh some
the car lights up and she doesn't know
where she went and she wakes up on the
shoreline of this lake and she panics
because her baby's not there. And I
said, "Well, what happened?" I don't
know. I said, "Did who who raped you?"
"I don't know." I said, ' But you knew
you were raped?' No, I don't know.
That's what the doctor told me. I said,
' Okay. So,
okay, you raped. That's off base as
civilians kind of let the state police
handle that. You know, we're going to
we're So, we coordinate with state
police and they say, "Oh, we got
investigators doing that. We
So,
>> they think the two fishermen might be
involved in this, right? They you know
they back then they didn't have DNA but
they have
>> brought them in for questioning.
>> They have uh secretions. If you are a
secretor of something you can tell SP
she didn't have any semen in her.
>> Yeah.
>> So they they they cleared them I guess
and uh so then we started delving into
it. Well I didn't. Another agent comes
in and takes it takes the case. So
that's all I was involved in that.
Months later,
I was told by this other agent, female
agent, that it was legitimate. She just
came at my office and she says, "You
remember the certain case?" "Yeah,
legitimate." and walked out.
>> Wow.
>> So, that was my limited briefing access.
>> Wow.
>> So, it it it really happened.
>> What's your best guess as to why and and
it's mostly women why the abductions
take place? They're interested in our
body structures. Their their bodies,
their biologics are entire entirely
different than ours. Uh their makeup of
their sk of of our skin, their skin,
everything's different. Eyes are
different. Uh they're interested in us.
And they're interested in how we uh uh
populate, how uh you know, how we uh can
move uh how our eyes move, what we see
when we we all these things they're
interested in. And this is me. This is
Rick Dodie talking. This isn't something
I read out of some document.
>> Sure.
>> Uh I think that they're so interested in
us that they want to experiment with us,
but they don't want to harm us. And
that's why all these abductions
occurring and from different species and
they're just trying to examine us as we
would them. We have and now I'm talking
from experience. We have
extraterrestrials in captivity. I know
that I saw one at least one. I know that
there were others. There were 20 I think
24 uh uh six
uh no 30. There were 30 uh environmental
cages or facilities that could house
them. Different types of environment.
Some where the extraterrestrials were
breathing a little bit of methane. And
so all this is happening. I know it. And
so we're experimenting trying to figure
out what these things are. We have dead
bodies of them in crash sites. We're
doing autopsies on them. I know that
from people like Kit Green and others uh
that work for the Institute for uh Armed
Force Institute for Pathology.
>> Kate Green did autopsies.
>> Well, he saw the aftermaths, read
reports.
I'll show you a picture of Kit Green to
me here in a afterwards. And um so I
know
what I know and I know that that's what
they're interested in. Now,
technically of what they're doing and
how they're doing it and what they're
doing with it, I don't know. I I I I
wouldn't know. And I don't know what
we're doing with their stuff because I I
don't have a need to know that. And I I
never was in a position to have access
to that type of information.
>> No. Well, it's a good guess as any, I
think.
>> Yeah. Exactly. You know, they want to
know us. They don't want to know why
we're And and again, you look at it in a
different way, the Linda Howell way. And
you know, God bless Linda How. She's
she's a heck of an investigator and been
fantastic for the Lord.
>> Uh that that they were they've been here
before us or they put us here. Uh maybe
uh maybe they were here before us. I I
this is Rick Dodie talking only. I
thoroughly believe we had a civilization
on Earth billions of years ago and that
uh we they killed it killed themselves
with nuclear weapons because you can go
to places and I've been there in
Malaysia and one place in Australia
where there's remnants of of radiation
that has gone through their life their
half life and full life which is
millions and and millions of years and
you can find that stuff. Well, we didn't
have radiation nuclear weapons uh
millions and millions of years ago.
>> And that couldn't be some type of like a
radiated element like that's like
plutonium or uranium or something.
>> I think the experts are saying uh some
of these uh trace elements that they
found were isotopes from uh
>> explosions,
>> ionized radiation that we would have
used in making a nuclear weapon.
>> Wow.
Interesting. And so I think at some
point I think there was life on or years
and maybe they went someplace and maybe
they went into another dimension. Maybe
they do live in another dimension
>> underground
>> um or or the bottom of the ocean.
>> Yeah.
>> I I have interviewed and I've and
they've been on Gaia interviewed uh
submarine commanders that will swear
that there's civilizations on the bottom
of the ocean.
Have you looked into the 4chan
whistleblower as it were? The uh guy who
came out and talked about uh mobile
construction units in the ocean, namely
off the coast of in the Bahamas. In the
>> Bahamas. Yeah.
>> Yeah. What do you make of that?
>> That's possible. You know,
>> you've never had any crossover to like
naval intelligence in that regard. One
particular case that I worked was with
naval intelligence
um well no I'm sorry two one the Jamie
Shander stuff
>> that I talked about earlier and then
this other case uh about what this um
this I got to be careful. Yeah, I can
see. Um,
this guy was a crew member on a
submarine uh in the probably 70s. I I I
don't Yeah, it would have been the 70s.
Um, they went someplace,
they found something, he took a piece, a
widget,
and he took it and he got out of the
Navy
and he lived in uh Albuquerque, New
Mexico.
He worked on Kirtland Air Force Base as
a civilian for a contractor.
Um, and he gave this widget to the
contractor to try to figure out what it
was.
And naval intelligence had gotten
information. I can't go into all that,
but they they they knew all about this.
And they came to Albuquerque and said,
"We need to go find this guy. We need to
go, you know, pull him in. Um, we need
to get the FBI involved because he's a
civilian now." I said, "Okay, well, you
know, we're federal agents and we could
still do things, but we always like to
have FBI with us, especially if it
involves espionage because that's their
Billy Wick."
>> So, you know, we I get Jerry Brown and
the guy I interface with the FBI. We go
we uh go out to the base, I mean, yeah,
to the base, the contract office. I
can't tell you the contractor. And he is
there. We walk in and he's standing
there in front of us. uh just happened
to be walking out of this lab and we
called him by name and I said, "Are you
so and so?" And you know, we all pull
out our credentials, FBI, is OSI,
NCIS or NIS. Uh we need to talk to you.
He said, "They got it inside there. It's
over there." That's what he said. That's
his first words.
So, and I says, "Well, that's not good
enough. Come on in here." So we went
into the little office in the coffee
shop area and talked to him and and he
and and then we took him over to the OSI
office and then they did all the
interrogation and stuff that So that's
the case.
>> What happened to the widget?
>> Um the government took it. Well, no, you
know what? I think they just kept it
there at that lab because they're
cleared for it.
>> Oh yeah, the lab is already
>> Yeah.
>> So they just probably created some
>> whatever the widget was. They are trying
to figure out what the widget was. Yeah.
That's the only other case that I worked
with the naval intelligence on.
>> Yeah. Well, it's interesting too because
you have you have stories of the naval
the department of naval intelligence as
well, not just the office of naval
intelligence. And the department comes
up with, you know, Bob Lazar and it
comes up a few other places. I know John
Stewart had done some due diligence on,
you know, finding other instances of
that being mentioned, right? Uh, have
you ever run into the department of off
of naval intelligence? Never.
>> No. Office of Naval Intelligence. only
thing that I ever ran into. And and it
other than those two cases, I'm sorry,
there was one other case where we were
uh No, it didn't have anything to do
with uh your was an espionage case and
uh O and I was involved in that and we
interfaced a little bit with that.
>> Yeah. But never the department. No. You
never heard of it?
>> No, not during my time. I never heard of
it.
>> Not during your time, but afterwards
you'd heard of it because heard through
Bob Lazar and everything else. Okay.
Um,
okay.
>> Oh, one more thing. Uh, I'm gonna
>> I'm going to bring up some questions. We
have audience questions that we like to
bring up.
>> Uh, they were, you know, told of your
arrival 12 hours ago and they had a
limited time to ask questions, but
>> you know, the question board filled up
as you can imagine.
>> Um,
>> I [clears throat] bet.
>> Yeah. But uh before we get there, I
wanted to I wanted to ask you about uh
Lou Alzando.
Um
there was mentioned some Space Force
talk that you had run into Lou there. Is
that accurate?
>> Yeah, he he called me a long time ago uh
um in 2021 or 22 and we talked on the
phone and he was wondering if I he asked
me if I was still working and I said no,
which I wasn't. I I I I was I mean other
than the Z's and Gaia and things and he
said uh you would you'd be interested in
working for uh Space Force and in
counter intelligence office. I said what
and I don't know who he is. Okay. I
didn't know
>> at that point. Yeah.
>> I said no I'm not interested. I said I
know a colonel up there. And I said did
he give you my name? He said well I
can't say that. And uh so that was it.
And then a another person from the Space
Force called me, you know, weeks later
or something and asked me about uh
working uh if I was interested in doing
some field work if I could still get my
security clearance back. He said, "I I
understand you spoke with and he gave me
a name of somebody." Well, this was a
2022, I'm sorry. Uh I said, "Yeah, I
just was up there in in January 2022. I
was called up to Washington to the
defense uh uh IG's office. Uh they
wanted to talk to me about some of the
cases I ran uh as an OSI agent. And I
said, "Sure." You know, "Do I get my
security clearance back?" Uh
oops. And I said, he said, "Yeah, yeah,
yeah, you can talk about it." And they
gave me a report. They passed a report
to me
and the report is heavily redacted. He
said, ' Do you do you recognize this
report? And I'm looking at it and I go
and I look and I said, "Yeah, that's a
report I did in in 1981." But I said, "I
don't remember everything in here. Do
you got one that's not redacted?" He
said, "No, SI won't give it to us. It's
still classified." I said, "Why are you
giving me this?" He said, "We just need
to know about it." I said, 'Well, I
could tell you what I remember. It's
nothing about what we've spoken here.
And I I told him what I could could
remember. Well, then in uh that person's
name was given to me from that person
from Space Force and and and I can't I
went back there in September of 2022 and
they had an unredacted report that I
talked to him about. So,
that's uh that's that's all. And I never
worked for Space Force. I never promised
to work for Space Force. So, yeah.
>> What's Space Force's interest in wanting
to work uh in in in wanting to hire you
potentially for counter intelligence?
>> I never got that far,
>> but I mean, you you can surmise. Well, I
think I think they want they wanted to
uh contract me to do what I did before
as a contractor uh and um
>> cover up UFO stuff.
>> Yeah. Spy on people
>> for UFO.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. [snorts]
>> Okay.
>> That's what I think. Again, I don't
know.
>> I can assume that too because otherwise,
you know,
>> why would they want me?
>> Go get someone who's, you know, uh green
around the gills or whatever and you
know.
>> Um yeah. So that's really interesting.
And what are these here? We have project
capstone white, auburn blue, medlap
star, candid sky.
>> Those are all cases that I
uh briefly spoke about here
>> during Okay. You can't say which one is
which.
>> No. And these are all the cases.
>> Those are all the case files that I did
>> that we can foyer that you've that
>> I'll tell you I tell you that's been on
the internet for Yeah.
>> about four years and a million people's
foyer. In fact, the Foya monitor of a a
woman uh F I think her name is Fton Noi
called me up and said, "You don't know
what you've done." [laughter]
>> I said, "Uh,
>> well, you'll get some, but they're
heavily redacted, of course." In fact,
this one here,
uh, 82 is it right here?
>> You You can get that one. It's 87 page
of nothing. There's not even the page
numbers are releasable.
>> Oh wow.
>> Which is stupid.
>> It's just all redacted.
>> It's all redacted. And and I'd say that
one probably
>> is should be redacted.
>> But Oh, really?
>> There's some that are redacted that are
They should
>> Wait, why should that one be redacted?
because it involves something very very
very sensitive and and it would disclose
sources and methods and it would uh
national security
>> and it has to do with aliens
>> definitely. Whoa.
>> So, are we talking treaty level stuff?
>> I don't know about treaties, but um I
don't believe in we ever had a treaty
with him, but that's me. But there's
some here that are are redacted that
should never be redacted. I mean, maybe.
Yeah. Sightings and that. Yeah. But some
of the things that pilots, most of that
stuff, a lot of that, not most of it,
some of it involves pilots.
>> Yeah.
>> Um
>> pilots flying uh classified missions.
>> Oh, I see.
>> Seeing UFOs and the fact that their
mission was classified,
uh you can't talk about that. And they
they had a close encount or they had a
>> Yeah. you know, they saw the UFO, it
chased them or they chased it or they
shot it down or there was there's chew
in there where they actually shot down
something, but it mended itself and it
flew back. It was like uh
uh this this is way before Transformers
sure movie ever came out,
>> but you had I mean, you know, I at a as
a kid I had one of those, you know,
>> and um this this pilot, and I can't go
into great details, was flying a
classified mission and he's he's
covering for this other aircraft and um
if this is in the United States, they're
I can tell you they're flying out of the
Groom Lake area and this thing comes up.
A flying saucer comes up and almost hits
his cockpit. I mean, his canopy almost
just goes right over it. It really
pisses him off. So, he banks and he goes
after it and he's protecting this other
flying highly classified craft. And it
goes down and he goes down and shoots
it. He shoots at it with this side
winder missile,
two of them, and it hits it and it
crashes. Now, he's in a jet, so he can't
obviously land. So, he's circling it.
And this thing, he says it repaired
itself and it flew away.
And it reminded me of the Transformer,
you know, movies. Yeah, I like those
things.
>> But, but something like that was in that
report. And yeah, I guess that that
would be classified. um the the details
and there's a lot more to that that I
can't talk about.
>> There's a is there a lot of alien
encounters in these?
>> Uh a few
>> there's a few
>> there's there's one that's that's uh
probably the best
>> story is uh you want to hear it?
>> Yeah, please.
>> This Air Force pilot [clears throat]
loves fishing. So, he's up in a lake,
northern Mexico, lakes all over the
place. Uh, fishing. Uh, just him. He's
camping, too. He he sets up his tent
and, you know, he's camping. It's
there's a stream and then there's a
lake, very small lake. And he's fishing
and there's a clearing. Uh, he's in a
very wooded area except for the lake.
And then off to his uh north uh yeah,
northwood is a clearing. And one morning
he gets up and he eats his breakfast and
he goes and throws pole in and he's he
he hears a sound. He he says, "I've
never heard the sound before." He said,
"It's like a pulsating
b
sound." And he looks and looks. He
thought something. It's like something's
shooting down something. Maybe a pulse
ray or something. And that's what he's
thinking. He's a pilot. He's an air
force. uh uh pilot. He flies F F
A A A A A A A A A A7DS
as jets. Yep. And um so then he sees it
and it starts to come down and it's pul
something's pulsating under it. This is
flying saucers.
>> So he immediately goes over and he has a
camera. In fact, one of those uh
>> Polaroid
>> polar caneras he has in his in his tent
because he always takes pictures of his
fish.
He gets his Polaroid camera and he comes
out because he's he then he drops his P.
He goes over to the clearing to the tree
line to take pictures of this and he
said from the tent to the tree line is
maybe 60 70 yards, you know.
>> Mhm. He gets over and he's waiting and
he starts taking pictures and next thing
you know there's two beans right next to
him. He says scared him. He dropped his
camera and these things were like 7 foot
tall. They had helmets on. He couldn't
see their face. And he goes into the
whole details of of what they did and
and he thought, "Oh my god, they're
going to abduct me." That's what he's
thinking. Now, this is interesting
because
he wasn't briefed into UFOs. I mean, of
what a pilot would normally get training
and they do to get some of that.
>> Yeah.
>> He didn't know about UF abductions, but
that came into his mind
>> and that was interesting the interview
and inter interrogation later about why
he thought that. But anyways,
he he looks and and these things are and
then he starts hearing voices in his
head and he thought, "They're
communicating with me." So he sits down
and he he never could explain why he sat
down, but he sat down on the ground and
he doesn't know how long this occurred,
but he when he w when he woke up, he was
in his sleeping bag in his tent.
>> It was dark.
He knows that he got up at 7 in the
morning. He knows he made breakfast and
and and had a campfire and then he went
fishing and it was like 15 or 20 minutes
after he started fishing that this
happened. So he figured it was about
8:30 in the morning and when he looked
at his clock it was 21:30
9:30
p.m.
>> He doesn't know what happened and he
he was it scared him. He goes over to
the tree line where he dropped his
camera. Polar, it was still there. Polar
was still there. And he knew he took two
pictures of the craft.
He thought he had taken one of them.
Well, the pictures of the craft was on
that were there. You know, they you know
how they pop out and they're on the
ground.
>> One had been, you know, when you don't
take the Yeah. It kind of smudges. One
was unrecognizable, but one wasn't
>> very clear.
>> Very clear. Well, he comes into the OS
he calls the OSI office uh Monday. Uh
this this happened on a I think a
Sunday, Saturday or Sunday. Uh he calls
the OSI office. He said, "I need to come
in to talk to somebody." And this is
what he said. All our phones are calls
are recorded. And there's just a clerk
that takes the call, the secretary. It's
not agent. I need to come in and talk to
somebody that uh handles UFOs. That's or
flying saucers.
And secretary says, "Uh, okay. Uh, what
happened? I I I think I I I was abducted
and I need to talk to somebody. I'm a
captain in United States Air Force." And
she said, "Well, just a minute." So, she
puts on the agent that's duty agent, not
not a counter intelligence.
>> Oh, okay. So the that agent then I'm in
I just get to the office and uh I just
sit down and I'm in a secure area takes
me back you know I had to unlock
everything and to get there and he and
my intercom ring says uh uh Richard you
got to call on whatever I pick up and
see this special may help you.
>> Yeah. Do you hand do you handle flying
saucers? And I think he's a cook sure
cuz I get these. I said uh yeah did you
see one? Yeah, I saw one. I took a
picture of one. Uh I'm an a captain of
the United States Air Force. And the way
he talked, I thought he was
This is a call. I said, "Okay."
Uh I said, "Where you where you
stationed at?" He said, "I'm stationed
at Kirtland."
I said, "Okay." I said, "Well, why don't
you come down to the OSI office?" And
and I he said, "I thought I had to make
appointment." I said, "Just come down
OSI office. I'll I'll look at it." So he
comes down.
you know, an hour later, whatever it
was, he comes in, he's in uniform.
I said, "Have a seat, Captain." I said,
"What happened?" And he tells me the
whole story that I just told you. I
said, "Where's a picture?" And he bolted
across and it's a picture of something.
It wasn't on the ground. It was
hovering, but there's distortion under
it.
like something's blocking t you know the
the something's blocking the view of the
other side
like a pulse or something. I said where
did you tell? And then he tells me story
and I said wow. I said did you have
missing time? He said yeah about 10
hours.
I said okay [clears throat]
we'll need to we'll need to start an
investigation on this. And we did. And
you know, number one, he's a captain,
United States Air Force. He's a pilot.
Um, he passed a polygraph. He passed a
hypnosis.
Uh, he has a picture. He has evidence.
>> Yeah.
>> So, we go back up there like four
five days later. It's a 250 mi north of
where Kurland, but we went up there,
myself and and another agent and him.
Um, we followed him up there. He took us
to You had to park and walk a distance
down to where he was at. His tent was
still there. I said, "Well, when we
walked down, I said, "Somebody's
camping." He said, "No, that's my tent."
I said, "You left your tent?" He said,
"I had to get out of here quickly." So,
his fishing pole was still down by the
water. So, everything he told us,
>> Yeah. checked
>> evidence is there. So, I said, "What?
Where did you wake up?" He said, "I wake
up in a tent in my sleep bag." So, we
took the sleep bag as evidence, you
know, and we took his clothes. I said,
"We need the clothes that you were
wearing."
>> Yeah.
>> In, you know, trace evidence and stuff.
And he did. And so, that was a
legitimate incident. And that's that's
one of these cases here. That's
absolutely real.
>> Wow. I feel like that one can be
unredacted.
>> Oh, absolutely. Mo most of it can be
because it's it's anecdotal.
>> Yeah. Exactly.
>> Yeah. if you don't provide the photo or
anything else. I mean, it's just
anecdotal.
>> Interesting. Interesting. Okay, I'm
gonna I got a camera back here. I'm
going to turn it on so that we can film
this thing and we'll get to some
questions.
>> Okay.
>> How you feeling?
>> Good. Good. Good.
>> All right. For those in the know, if
you're a member here, you get access to
our Discord and on that uh when we have
guests, you're alerted maybe 12 hours in
advance about the guest and you have an
opportunity to ask the guest a question.
Well, this time I think I think the
prompt wasn't up for 10 minutes before
it started getting flooded. So, um,
clearly sparking some interest here. And
we're going to get to the first
question. So, thank you to everybody who
asked questions. Sorry I couldn't get
through all of them,
but uh,
here we go.
Okay. Okay, some of these we've actually
answered, so I'm I'm going to I'm going
to skim past them. But this is an
interesting one.
Uh in this one, what is your conviction
on the portal somewhere in the US that
Coltard alludes to? Ross Coltard uh
talked about I I think a portal in in
perhaps Soma or or that area. What's
your conviction level?
Well, this goes back to uh a rather long
uh story about time travel, but um make
it as short as again I was involved in a
counter intelligence operation. Uh
Sandia National Laboratories had a
operation where they were experimenting
with time travel trying to trying to
create time travel and it was being done
there at Kirtland and also out at Nevada
Test Site. Well, they had uh
advertisements in different magazines.
Of course, the internet wasn't around
back in that days. And some this person
responded to Sandy Lab and said, "I'm a
time traveler. I can prove it." We did a
full investigation. This guy went down
to Arizona near Sedona and said, "I can
walk through a time portal and then come
back out." Uh Sandia went down there. We
all went down there. This guy we thought
was full of it, but he actually walked
through something and uh to the best of
my knowledge, you know, although I
didn't do a lot of followup on this,
he's never returned.
>> You do you saw this?
>> I saw this.
>> You saw him walk into a portal.
>> I saw him walk through a uh a crevice in
a rock. It it was a rockfaced and it was
a small crevice and he walked through
that crevice and it wasn't anything.
nothing on the other side. It was being
filmed.
>> Could he fit in the crevice?
>> He barely fit in the cre in the crevice
and we were some distance away from him.
And then uh somebody said, "Well, okay,
he's in there." And and so we waited. We
you know, his his uh story was he was
going to go in and then come back out
and bring something from and I don't
remember if it was from the past or the
future. I I don't remember that. And um
he never came out. at least the longest.
We were there for hours and hours and he
never came out. We went down there or
Sandy Labs went down there and and other
contractors and looked at the crevice
and figured you know how did he get out
of here?
It seems so silly to me that one can
just call the the most, you know,
secured sort of facilities uh that are
doing the most sensitive technical
technological advancements that, you
know, US Department of Defense has ever
seen and could just claim they're a time
traveler and you'll
you'll, you know, um send out people and
and have a budget approved
to go follow these people who just claim
these things. Like
>> I gave you the short version.
>> Oh, I see.
>> There was a lot
investigations on this guy.
>> Um we did background background
background. Um and that this is what
makes it really interesting. the only
the only date of birth for that name of
that person that we could find and we
have
even back in the 80s we had you know the
defense index of of indices we had the
FBI the IR everything we searched
everything was somebody that was born in
19 in 1879
and uh I think it was
uh some I think it was Billing was
Montana but someplace else and I think
it was Montana. That's the only name we
could find that that fit that person.
>> And so
>> was that who he was claiming to be?
>> Yeah, he was claiming to be that person.
And he gave us all sorts of uh I mean,
and again, I wasn't the main person that
investigated him. Other agents did that,
so I don't know everything that was
done, but you know, I had a report that
I'd read. They went out to where he
claimed he lived in Barstow, California.
They checked his residence. They checked
where he supposedly worked. Uh he
claimed he'd worked in some place in uh
uh Bend, Oregon uh in 1934 or something
like that. Some some date. They went up
there. Uh the company didn't exist
anymore. Nobody knew anything about. So
there's there was no checking. He
couldn't check. He claimed he was
something in 1920. I can't remember.
Something about 1920 where he was in New
York or um on a ship or something and
they couldn't find anything. Uh there
was there was something else that they
found that verified that name. I think
it was on a ship manifest from um Cuba
to uh to New York uh in 19 something
1907 or something a name.
>> How strange.
>> But that's they they did all that stuff.
So and somebody you know I guess Sandy
Labs decided they were going to hire him
if he can do this. and they did a lot of
background and they did a lot of
examination of him psychological and and
physical and all that and that's
something they did. I didn't I wasn't
involved any of that.
>> Was there any other instances of time
travel that you were maybe briefed on?
>> Um
yes, but that was part of the Sandia uh
labs experiments and I'm pretty sure
that's still probably proprietary. Uh
but there were uh I think two cases
where
there was legitimate
evidence of something traveling.
>> What's your
>> uh back in time I think it was. Yeah.
>> Which Back in Time is interesting.
What's your conviction level on looking
glass?
[clears throat]
>> I don't know enough about it. I just
know what I've read in uh you know open
sources but
>> Okay.
>> No, I don't know anything. Never come
across any type of device that peers
into time.
>> Oh
um
um yeah there the widget. Let's go back
to the widget.
>> Okay.
>> We got a widget from our friends or
visitors.
>> Well like the yellow book.
>> Yeah the yellow book.
>> So that's uh
>> the yellow book. That's it.
>> And that's your high conviction on that?
That's my only I mean I've heard other
people talk but I me personally I didn't
experience anything uh regarding time
travel other than what I saw during the
experiments that were happening uh at
other places like in Nevada test site
there was an underground facility that
had these huge magnets and they were
shooting things through the magnets
again I'm not a scientist so I'm just
lay lay persons explaining what I saw
>> and I saw at one time and they were
doing experiments something opened
And a scientist was standing next to me.
I said, "What's that?" He says, "You
just saw the fabric of space opening."
>> Wow.
>> And for a split I mean it wasn't like it
open just for a split second. I mean or
you know whatever a second but that's I
saw that and and so they in 1980s
uh they were able to do that. So just
imagine what they could do now. I can't,
you know, we spoke about this at dinner
yesterday, but like with the exponential
growth of technology and how fast that's
moving, um, you know, what looks like
the the stealth bomber in 2010, you
know, to the people in 1980 might look
futuristic, but what 30 years from now
looks like would be indistinguishable
from alien tech. I I I believe um I
think that anything we see that's 30
years advanced with the exponential
growth including AI and everything else.
I mean I don't even think we could
imagine what that might look like in 30
years.
>> Did you have you ever heard of the
Lancaster incident?
>> No.
>> Lancaster, Pennsylvania in you heard of
that?
>> There's a story that was written in a
book uh and Bill Moore had the book.
It's an old old book. Uh it was written
in 18 you know something. Anyways,
Lancaster, Pennsylvania during the Civil
War.
Um, there was a photographer that was at
a battlefield. Uh, I think he was Union.
Pretty sure he was Union and he was
because they had the big cameras and
they took this picture of the
battlefield, but in the background of
that picture, you would see a jet, which
looked to me like a B1B bomber.
>> Whoa.
>> How h how'd that happen? And so I mean
that was there was a guy that spoke at a
UFO convention way back about 2005 or
six about that picture but all he had
was that picture. There's no
explanation, no evidence of the real,
you know, nobody has a real it's a
picture of a picture of a picture.
>> Yeah. You see you see those photos pop
up where like oh is this a time traveler
and that type of stuff.
>> How did what how did that plane get
there?
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Interesting. All right. Let's get to the
next question. Thanks for answering
that. Um,
>> this is a good one from Chris in Austin,
Texas.
He asks, "What was the most serious UAP
incident or slash encounter that you
were briefed on?" I think, you know,
speaking about that uh Air Force uh
captain, was it?
>> Yeah,
>> probably. Yeah, that would probably be
the
>> Yeah,
>> the the most serious. Uh there uh there
was another uh incident. I wasn't again
directly involved in it
>> that happened actually within the Nellis
testing range
>> um that uh was incredible and I actually
have the statement from the guy that
sent me this. Uh he was actually there
and it happened in um
the the 70s
um
Steve it happened in 19 Well yeah
if you read that and you read the um
um a certain air force person that came
out saying that he was involved in some
incident. Uh this is a story that
uh was I talked about on Gaia uh
four years before um this particular Air
Force guy came out to public. So
>> and what exactly goes on here? Uh this
there was an air force team out at
Nellis test and training range that was
going from one place to another and they
ran across an extraterrestrial walking
along the road.
>> Right.
Whoa. And they uh panicked. The vehicle
shut down. They uh they had a radio uh
in their vehicle and they tried to call
for help. They finally uh got a got a
worker, it wasn't a a
a policeman or anything or camel dude to
report it and eventually it was reported
to o uh to OSI.
that kind of follows the same story that
another person who talked about, but
this happened in um
you know and and uh
the same time period that he's talking
about,
>> but this is verified.
>> Um this isn't like I mean you you've
heard of the Jason Sans
>> Jason Sans that's talking about. Yeah.
>> I don't want to name name you mentioned
his name so
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. So that's similar
>> similar or Jason got it from here. I
don't know. I don't know. I don't know.
>> But yeah, in and around the same time
frame
>> area as well.
>> Yeah. Same
>> being as well described
>> being
>> blue skin. Yeah. Wow.
>> But if you go to a guy at my I can't I
think it was episode 80 or something.
>> This was this was told,
>> right?
>> And that's two years before Jason Sand
came out.
>> I see. I see. So, you're saying that
there might be some type of overlap in
this material or
>> maybe they just had a different
incident. I'm not saying Jason lying.
I'm just saying that
>> Yeah.
>> doesn't fit.
>> Yeah. Yeah. One of the stories is
already out there. So, it it definitely
takes away from some of the credibility,
>> right? Yeah. Okay, fair enough. Um
I think uh do we do I think we have one
more here.
Um, actually, let let me ask you one
last question. See if you want to maybe
a bit of a game. Can you give me
two truths in a lie?
>> Two truths and a lie
>> and I won't attempt to guess anything
and we'll just leave it at that.
>> So, you can say,
>> "Okay."
>> Whatever.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. We we we
actually played this game in um in the
intelligence operations course.
interesting
>> to each other for a psychological test.
Yeah. Um I'm not going to tell you.
Okay.
>> Don't tell me anything. Just
>> Okay. Um in 1980,
I was um
driving from uh in New Mexico. I was
stationed in New Mexico. I was driving
from one place to another to pick up a
good friend of mine. He came in at an
airport that wasn't an Albuquerque
airport. Okay. And um along the way
after I picked him up, I was it was
Santa Fe. I was coming back and
Interstate 25. And he said uh he he
pointed to um Sandia Crest, which is a
big mountain there. I don't know if
you've been to Albuquerque, but and he
said, "There's a uh tram that goes up
there, right?" I said, "Yeah, yeah,
there's there's a tram, important tram."
He said, "Can you take me up there?" I
said, "Sure." So, as we turn to go up
that road, we see the tram going up. And
above the tram was this object following
the tram up
up to the top of the mountain. Okay. in
um
about 1965.
Uh I wrestled in high school and um I
was at a we were wrestling our uh our
rival school and and the and the
wrestling programs for the school
was really a rival. You know, one match
we'd beat then they'd b beat us and as
you if you know about wrestling, you
start at lower weights and you work up
and and I was at the 130 pound class and
I was wrestling
the uh he was a runner up the state
the year earlier
and we were tied at that point because
we had other matches ahead and I
wrestled this guy and I beat him for on
one. I beat him at almost because three
minute uh rounds. The third round I came
within a second of pinning him. I get
the uh predicament which is a point and
I win by one point.
Um
in um let me see this was would have
been in 201
15. No, no. 2014 I went to Laos. I was
involved with this group that uh was
still looking for PS in Laos. And I went
to Laos with this group of people to go
to a certain location to try to find
evidence of whether these uh PS that
were at this site was called Messi 85.
was any remnants of it or or because the
site had been excavated by the military
before. So I went there with this group
and we found some not remains but we s
find some evidence of something that had
occurred there. There's my three
stories. Amazing. Thank you for sharing
that. I'll let the audience decide.
Maybe leave your comments below. One,
two, or three. Which one is the lie? Um
lastly, I just want to leave you with
this.
Richard Dodie,
how do you want to be remembered?
>> Oh, wow. Um,
well, I want to remember
as a u a person who did their duty
during my government service. I was in a
regular air force. I had distinguished
duty in irregular air force. I went to
intelligence
uh for a number of years. I did my duty.
I did what I was told to do, how I was
told to do it, and when I was told to do
it. Uh so I know there's a lot of
animosity out there of what I did,
especially during the Pub Benitis case,
which we really didn't go into a lot of
details on. There's a lot more to that
story, but I want to remember as as as
being a person who did their job, did
their duties uh to their country and
then afterwards I served also uh in
trying to get this story out, disclosure
out. That's why I'm here. That's why
I've done over 200 episodes on Gaia.
That's why I I I'm open to podcasters or
I I made made videos or I have the Dodie
Chronicles out there. I'm telling the
story as much of it as I can without
disclosing classified information or
jeopardizing national security. That's
why how I want to be remembered.
>> Thank you so much for sharing all that.
I really appreciate your time. I
appreciate you coming out here and uh
and visiting us and and uh sharing your
stories uh with my audience. And uh I
can't wait to see I can't wait to see
how this is received. To be honest,
there's a lot here. Uh, thank you for
your time, Richard.
>> You're very welcome, Chris.
>> [music]