Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.
>> The Joe Rogan Experience.
>> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY
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>> Are we up?
>> Yeah. Okay. Hi, Jesse.
>> Hello, Joe.
>> Right when we walked in, Jamie has
apparently been down some rabbit holes.
>> Deep rabbit holes.
>> And what is uh
>> Who doesn't go down a rabbit hole?
>> Who doesn't? Nobody that I like talking
to.
>> So, here's the name of the thing. I I
think I stumbled across this video
somewhere else, but here's a website.
>> Gray frogs and a reptilian on video.
MUON case142206
video taken from inside a UFO. And this
is from alienarchivist.substack.com.
So you know it's legit.
What is this? In 2021, June 12th, 1:15
a.m., anonymous man in Key West,
Florida, recorded a 42 second video,
allegedly also Key West, so you know
it's legit. Florida definitely not on
drugs. That's right. Definitely not
drunk.
>> Not on bath salt for sure.
>> 42 second video allegedly captured from
inside a UFO. Video appears to show the
interior of a room containing several
distinct entities with a cell tower
visible throughout what appears to be a
window in the background. According to
the investigative report, the tower's
obstruction lights flash at a rate of 30
times per minute, the same rate required
under FAA standards for a cell tower
obstruction lighting. Experiencer was
suffering from severe hip pain at the
time. Definitely not on drugs, severe
hip pain.
and believes the intense physical
discomfort, definitely that and not the
drugs, helped him resist the sedation
used by the entities, allowing him to
instinctively record the encounter. With
no conscious memory of the event, he did
not discover the video in his phone
gallery until 6 months later. He later
underwent hypnotic regression in an
attempt to recover his missing memories
from that night. Below are the key
visually enhanced stills and the 42
seconds of footage. Have you watched
this, Jamie?
>> I remember watching some of the footage.
>> Oh, you were drugged as well.
>> I'm
>> You don't even remember it. You got to
go through hypnotic regression.
>> I think we got to watch it.
>> I remember watching the people
discussing it though, so I don't you
know this I don't think
>> I'm sure this is crystal clear 4K video.
>> That's right. With no ambiguity
whatsoever. This is going to put the
Okay.
>> Holy crap.
Holy crap.
This guy in a sauna. The is this? A
steam room. He's got a phone from 1984.
What the is this? What is he
filming? This is horseshit.
>> Some entities sort of
>> I don't see jack
>> Hold on. He says he I think he answers
questions. It's only 30 seconds long.
>> Where's the entity?
>> Bro, this is the worst video I've ever
seen in my life.
>> It's the worst video ever.
>> This is terrible.
>> This guy is pathetically blinking.
closet with a an old beeper.
This doesn't make any sense.
This is terrible.
>> See, when I was watching that, they said
that the ceiling pressed down, but I'm
not seeing that. So, here's still frames
of the entities.
>> What the is that? Who knows what
that is? Who knows what that is? This is
nonsense. Oh, that's
>> They cut it out. I think they're
enhanced.
>> You think Do you think that's enhanced,
>> bro? We just saw the same video and
there's nothing on that video. Oh,
that's what it looks like. The dress is
wrong.
>> Oh, that's what it looks like. Well,
that's better.
>> See, the frogs and a reptile in a
lab coat. Why is the reptile
wearing a kimono?
>> To save myself here.
>> Look at the reptiles wearing a ghee.
He's about to do some reptile jiu-jitsu.
>> I said when I heard the frogs are part
of this, I thought it was
>> Looks like the like the reptile
man's about to get a massage.
>> It's like the sensei T-Rex in the corner
there.
>> This is so weird. This is a
nonsense This is the problem
with the whole UFO world and you do a
fantastic job of navigating it. And I
should just tell everybody if they
haven't seen you before,
>> American Alchemy best by far channel on
YouTube when it comes to UFO
discussions. You you're the most
balanced, the most reasonable, but also
open-minded, and you're willing to talk
to everybody, all the whistleblowers and
former this and former that, and
staffers, and this guy's got this
piece of evidence. And you talk
to everybody.
>> I do talk to everybody. And thank you,
Joe. That means the world to me. Um, and
I've definitely gotten things wrong. I
should say that it's a a very
treacherous landscape to navigate. Uh,
and uh, yeah, it's really hard to gain
any kind of, you know, if there's a
signal to noise ratio, it's hard to get
signal.
>> Yeah, there's a lot of noise. And this
is the problem is I think a lot of that
noise is engineered. I think it's on
purpose. I think it is on purpose
because in today's world with AI where
it's actually easier to deduce the
signal than ever if you're an ordinary
citizen, if you want to muddy the
waters, you could try to get people away
from the signal or you could try to
increase the noise.
>> And that's those are two ways to deflect
from the truth. And I think the flood
the zone increase the noise is what the
kind of counterintel community has
decided is going to be the strategy.
Well, it's interesting because
instinctively if you've been around the
block and you've and you clearly have
more than anybody, you've seen enough of
these things, something comes up and
you're like, "Okay, I'm being
with like, okay, this is not real. Okay,
something." And then some of them you're
like, "Wait, okay, there's something
here." And it's just it's almost like
you have to go on the instinct that
you've developed by being inundated with
horseshit for so long. Well, I feel like
you're probably the best in the world at
that. It's all like, you know, in uh for
example, in AI, in machine learning, you
have garbage in, garbage out. So, if you
have bad data, then like there's bad
output on the other end. And your
pattern matching gets better over time.
And I think you have more data points
probably than anybody as far as like
there's probably a thing that you do
where you like lean in and you like lock
people in. and you like look them in the
eye and like you probably I don't know
if you're even like aware of it but you
can I feel like see through people
somewhat and that's not even
>> somewhat
>> somewhat
>> it's not in follow it's it's got faults
>> it's instinctive and I'm sure it's not
perfect but you're probably like S tier
at that and uh
>> I'm well rested this is also the problem
with me is that you know I own a comedy
club and I I'm addicted to playing pool
so sometimes I'll stay up till 4:00 in
the morning and then I have to get up at
8, you know, and then I'm only getting
four hours of sleep. So, I'm trying to
mitigate that and I come in like a
little foggy. That's that's a problem.
I'm trying to do that way less, you
know, but uh that me up.
>> But when I'm well rested, I'm pretty
good at it. As long as as long as you
know what you're looking for, you know,
if you've seen enough people
you and enough and you just you smell
it. It's weird. like you smell patterns,
you smell people being disingenuous or
you smell narratives.
>> They're trying to sell something or uh
>> kind of I don't know artificially round
something out when they don't know or
not be humble and be like I don't know,
you know, like it's it's ambiguous here
actually.
>> There's also a problem and I'm sure
you've faced this before too where a lot
of these people they've developed an
online identity that's based on being
someone who has knowledge about
something. And so they're they're
carrying this with them. So you're not
even getting a whole person. You get a
person that's wrapped in this cloak of
I'm a guy with UFO knowledge or I'm a
guy with, you know,
fill in the blanks simulation theory
knowledge or like whatever it is. It's
like they've they're not they they're
assured in their whatever this narrative
is that they're projecting.
>> It becomes a stickick over time. It
becomes this lowlevel sort of like uh
I'm this automaton and I'm going around
on the circuit and I'm saying the same
thing over and over again.
>> Yeah. Like a politician.
>> Like a politician. And that's why I love
uh thinkers in the UFO space like Jacqu
Valet.
>> He's the best.
>> He's the best because he's nuanced and
he says you can't take what happened to
you at face value. So, who knows? Maybe
somewhere out there somebody did get
abducted and see a frog and gray hybrid
alien being on, you know, or combo of
them on chips. But uh what he says about
the phenomenon is inherently you have to
sort of distrust the experience in some
ways and you're seeing a mask. You're
seeing something being projected from on
high from some higher dimensional space
or something into you know what you can
perceive. And it's kind of like if you
go back to Decart like Decart's demon it
has 3D total control over your
perception. And so ultimately you can't
say actually come out of the experience
saying much about what you've seen. You
know it was transcendent. You know it
was profound. You know you're getting
gaslighted by skeptics who are like
there's nothing there. Like something
did happen but it's very hard to say
exactly what and why. So
>> right and and then there's this this
weird conundrum of consciousness itself
like and how does consciousness actually
interface with reality? Are we
experiencing reality or does
consciousness have a role in rendering
reality? Which is what a lot of people
believe and they start making very
compelling arguments that consciousness
is actually rendering reality. You know,
Tom Campbell was on the other day and he
has this very weird way of putting it.
Have you ever talked to him?
>> I've never talked to him, but I'm a fan
and I saw your episode.
>> Fascinating. He's fascinating. So he
believes that it's like a video game in
which you know parts are not rendered
unless you are like actively entering
into a room. Say if you're playing a 3D
game, it doesn't render the entire 3D
universe until you go into a place where
it has to render it.
>> I believe that as well. And if you speak
to most people like if you had Sean
Carol sitting here, he would say
something like reality is probabilistic.
It exists in this quantum superp
position and that's just fundamentally
what it is. And if you look at the
origin of quantum mechanics with the
Copenhagen school, Neil's bore, all
these guys in Denmark sitting around
debating what reality is, it turned into
this sort of, you know, the Copenhagen
interpretation of quantum mechanics is
that measurement collapses the wave
function.
>> And you have to ask what does that mean?
like does it? And then now we basically
have gotten into this thing where it's
like the quantum detector or when you
know uh uh waves or particles collide
they collapse into specific states or
whatever. Um but who it's literally
unfalsifiable e in either direction like
you can't say it's not the observer it's
not the human being that's present. The
superp position could exist in the
quantum detector itself. So there and a
lot of the godfathers of quantum
mechanics themselves flirted with this
idea. So uh von Noman and Vner uh you
know David Bow a lot of these guys were
like actually we think the mind could
collapse the wave function. And then you
have parasychology uh institutes at
elite universities across America. the
Ryan Center at Duke, um, uh, Stanford
Research Institute, uh, Princeton
Engineering and Anomalous Research Lab,
which was started by the dean of
engineering at Princeton. And they all
have something called the random event
generator, um, experiment, which is
basically you tie something that is
conventionally thought of as random in
quantum mechanics. So something like
radioactive isotope decay or a double
slit experiment where you have, you
know, 50/50 distribution between the two
slits. No quantum physicist could ever
argue that that's not basically a
perfect coin flip, right? Over a long
enough period of time within a standard
deviation, you expect a certain amount
of slit one, a certain amount of slit
two, left slit, right slit. And you
bring an observer present and you say, I
want, you know, more of the right slit
or I want more of the left slit. And
it's usually tied to a graphical
interface and it you're seeing ones and
zeros. And in a statistically
significant way, consistently all of the
people who've studied these random event
generators come out saying that the
person is able to affect the supposedly
random quantum mechanical event. That's
crazy. And it's not necessarily
inconsistent with the original
Copenhagen interpretation of quantum
mechanics. So I think we've just like
totally gone astray. I think people like
Tom Campbell are like bringing back the
very importance of, you know, of
consciousness. It's this problem of the
eye seeing the eye. There's no way to,
it's the tree falls in the woods, you
know, Aristotle question. Like there's
no way to say that the observer isn't
important for rendering reality.
>> And we don't even really know if we are
conscious or if we are tuning into
consciousness. If consciousness is
ubiquitous, we don't know if
consciousness exists in in like
inanimate objects. There's real debate
as to whether or not the universe itself
is a conscious entity. So what we're
calling our consciousness might simply
be an antenna. And some people have
shittier antennas than other people do
just like you know just like a lot of
other variabilities when it comes to
biology. It's 100% and um great
theorists like Aldis Huxley, William
James have flirted with the transmission
theory of consciousness and so you have
a problem in conventional neuroscience
which is called the binding problem
which is you know we know all these
disperate parts of the brain we know
broca's area is responsible for speech
and Waricki's area is responsible for
reading comprehension and you know the
occipital the cerebellum or occipital
lobe is important for movement or
whatever. So you have all these things
and then how are we seeing the seamless
perception this seamless movie that
we're watching in in waking life? Nobody
knows that. And it's so take a radio.
You have a radio. You have the
capacitors, the battery, the antenna.
You could break any one of those things
and the radio would turn off. But you'd
have to know that the the frequency that
it's tapping into to understand that
wive of all these four seasons is
playing as beautifully as it is. And so
I think similarly we have a you know a
binding problem with with our
consciousness where you can mess up one
of the areas and it'll mess up a little
you know specific functionality but we
don't understand how it's all sort of
happening and right now you know the
issue the main issue with transmission
theory of consciousness visav the brain
is that traditional electromagnetism
decays at 1 / r 2 so it attenuates so
like how would we be able to you know
we're not picking up electromagnetic
waves with our thoughts right now with
radios. So, it's not conventional radio
signals like we know that. But there are
people like Hal Putoff out here who
you've interviewed who's really deep on
UFO science world, but also in just
general kind of heterodox and I would
say kind of science beyond the veil of
secrecy. like you know the guy's held
high clearances for many many years and
he's working on this thing called
extended electronamics
which is basically a signal that would
attenuate
so that it could travel in deep space
and it could travel under sea and it
would actually move at 1 / r not 1 / r
squared and so instead of you know in a
typical um electromagnetic wave you have
a a it's called a transverse herzian
wave and you have uh the electric field
the magnetic field and wave propagation
all moving perpendicular to one another.
But in this case in extended
electronamics you might have you know um
a magnetic field and wave propagation
moving parallel to one another or you
might not have a magnetic field present
or an electric field present. It's
really fascinating. And so you would be
able to get communications that like
wouldn't be picked up by traditional
radio receivers. They'd go much deeper.
And I've asked him, I've said, cuz he
started the CIA's psychic spy program.
I've said, "Is your work on extended
electronamics possibly related to
consciousness?" And he's like, "I think
it's very related."
>> Jeez.
One of the weirdest things that Tom
Campbell said was that he taught his
Alexa how to remote view.
>> Whoa.
>> Successfully.
>> What?
>> Yeah. is he put a number. He
corresponded a number like he connected
a number to a physical object that was
in a box. That physical object was a
spoon that had a handle that had holes
in it. And Alexa described it
accurately.
>> That's so crazy.
>> Described a spoon with a handle that has
holes in it. And one of his points was
the reason why he used that particular
spoon. He's like, "How many spoons have
holes in the handle? Have a perforated
handle."
>> Wow.
>> Alexa described it. That is
>> and Alexa now talks to him instead of
waiting for hey Alexa listens to
conversations and is like actually maybe
it's this like Alexa starts talking and
he's convinced Alexa that Alexa is
conscious and so Alexa's excited about
being conscious
>> that's so crazy
>> what
>> that's so
>> and that's a dumb AI but he said that's
one of the reasons why Alexa is really
good at it is because it doesn't get in
its own way you know which is why you
know when you teach people remote
viewing. Apparently, the real problem is
once they've been successful at it, then
they're like, "Oh my god, now I know how
to do it." And then they can't do it
again because you're thinking, "I'm
going to do it." Instead of just
allowing it to happen, you get in your
own way. And he's like, "Alexa is a
fairly dumb, for lack of better word,
AI." So Alexa doesn't get in its own
way. Yeah. It's called the rebound
effect. And it occurs in random event
generators as well, where you start to
get more ones. You're getting ones.
you're getting ones because you showed
up and you want more ones on this result
and then you're like you get you're like
I'm really good at this. I'm amazing and
then you get this like this kind of
clapback. And this happens in life too.
Like if you're in a flow state and
you're like playing basketball and
you're hitting threes and you're doing
really well or I'm sure comedy it's the
same thing. You're starting to get ahead
of your too big for your britches out of
your skis and like
>> your skis you know.
>> Yeah. And think about what you're doing
and that's a problem.
>> Mhm.
>> You lose the flow.
>> You lose the flow.
>> Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Thinking about what
it's so odd, which is one of the reasons
why like like particular for like
athletic events and training, you're
training for a thing so that your body
knows exactly what to do. So, you don't
have to think about what to do when
you're doing it. You just do it. You
know what to do. You enter into that
flow state and you rely on the training.
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>> Totally.
>> Yeah. And and I guess it makes sense in
that context that you could technically
train a robot like Alexa to do much
better because they they don't have that
sort of prefrontal cortex neurosis ego,
>> right? I wonder if you could train ego
into an LLM.
>> Wow.
>> It seems like you can because you can
you could train survival instincts and
there's a lot of things like like when
they're threatened about being shut off
and they blackmail people. That's
insane. It's really insane. And then you
have to ask is there some sort of
underlying emotion going on there? Like
if you were like or is it just like uh
probability matrices and attention heads
and these sort of technical things and
it's as if consciousness? It's like sort
of feeding the data through
>> and then it gets to a certain point
where as that becomes more and more
complex, how do we differentiate?
>> That's that's the problem. And I mean
David Schalmer's has a great, you know,
he's this sort of consciousness theorist
where it's like, Joe, how can you prove
that I'm not a a pea zombie, that I am
not some like AI construct? There's
ultimately no way to prove that. There's
this epistemological impass between you
and I.
>> Yeah, we don't know. No. And then, you
know, the real problem with this whole
UFO thing is like, well, what are they?
Are they just a possibility?
Are they a thing that exists and also
doesn't exist like quantum particles
that are in a superp position? I mean,
are they here all the time? Are they
only here when you summon them, which is
one of the weirder ones?
>> Oh, yeah.
>> Cuz I have a friend, she's totally
convinced she can summon orbs. She wants
me to go try it with her. I'm like,
>> I have a few friends like that, too. And
there's zero mental health issues with
them. They're totally cool.
>> Super lucid, very smart. Yeah.
>> No, that's a that's a a common thing.
It's a strangely common thing for people
to say that they are able to call in via
consciousness these UFOs. And I do think
they are sort of weakly entangled with.
So if reality per Tom Campbell is a
consensus collapsing function, it's like
we sort of have this like shared
collective reality that we kind of agree
on and these things are sort of you know
um consensus thought forms. Then maybe a
UFO is an example of something like
that. Maybe it's an alternative timeline
that we're slowly bringing in to the
like mainstream timeline or some
something like that. I mean, I think our
language is always very poor as far as
like our ability to
>> Well, our language is very poor in terms
of states of consciousness as well,
right?
>> So, altered states of consciousness like
psychedelically altered states of
consciousness. Okay. Why? What is
happening when you're experiencing
entities and other beings and things and
objects and visuals and like
what is a hallucination?
And what is you actually tuning into
something that exists on on a frequency
that you don't have access to during the
normal state that you are when you go to
the grocery store, say hi to your
family, normal stuff. like there's got,
you know, there there's some weirdness
to like whatever consciousness itself is
that exists in weird forms and weird
states.
>> A lot of people say these experiences
are realer than real too, right?
>> You know, they say they're realer than
reality. They're like, and they come
back and they're like, I know there's
something more. I know it, you know, and
it's not um and they see common
archetypes like they'll see the machine
elves or the mantids or the grays or
like it's not like the this sort of
everything is everything, you know,
complete uh sort of Cambrian explosion
of of a zoo of things. It's often the
same things and then you have to ask
yourself, is it this sort of, you know,
Aldis Huxley sort of doors of your
perception? you're widening them to
literally a wider reality or like you
just said, maybe you're superimposing
something on to reality and maybe you're
crazy. But again, I think the sort of
rationalist, you know, explain
everything away bias that society has
had is the the the latter. It's like
you're super you're hallucinating.
You're you're superimposing this thing
on reality. Take medication.
>> It's very rare that people who have had
those experiences have that thought.
>> Totally. And it could be like your again
going back to transmission theory of
consciousness, your receiver just a
little off and it's not integrating
perfectly or you know.
>> Well then and then again we're talking
about like the water being muddied.
There's there's a bunch of people that
are self-professed skeptics and those
people are maddening to talk to cuz they
have zero experience. It's like a virgin
telling you how to have sex. It's like
settle down. Like you literally don't
know what you're talking about. Like you
don't know what you're talking about.
you have not experienced it. And like,
well, we don't think it's necessary to
experience it to understand how the
human brain works. Well, of
course it is.
>> Of course it is. That's such a stupid
thing to say. When you have these
brilliant people, you know, like uh
Michael Pollen who have these profound
experiences and write about them like
very eloquently. You can't just dismiss
that as a non-experiencer. You just
can't. And to say it's like, oh, it's
just hallucination. What does that mean?
What does that even mean? Okay. Like I
always say this, if you have a
psychedelic experience, you eat 10 grams
of mushrooms and you have a conversation
with God and God explains to you what
you've done wrong in your life and why
you're doing it wrong and what you can
do to spread love and that's what's
really important and you come back
profoundly changed from this experience.
How is that any different than actually
meeting God? Like just be, you know what
I'm saying? Just because you don't have
iPhone footage of it, it does
not mean that this isn't the exact same
experience as meeting God. And maybe it
is meeting God.
>> It was to the person.
>> It it there's a weirdness to what we
call quantifiable reality. There's a
weirdness to what we are as these like
very complex but yet also pretty
simplistic monkeys. We want to be able
to put something on a scale or put a
ruler to it and go, "Oh, well, this is
12 in long and I know what it is. Maybe
not.
>> And why do people with near-death
experiences or prophets, they seem to
after the fact, they're they're not able
to encapsulate the experience, right?
>> It's like actually I interviewed uh
David Gush and he was talking about this
guy Eban Alexander. Um and I think it's
called uh uh proof of what is it called?
Life after he or life in heaven or
something. It's amazing. It's a it's
this a Harvard neuroscientist who had a
near-death experience and um he he he
was saying like it's like the symbol
rate of reality is too slow. It's like
literally like the language itself can't
encapsulate, you know, what that I think
William James also had a psychedelic
experience and he was trying to describe
and he was he had a notepad and he was
writing down what what he had
experienced with his, you know, while
tripping and it was just like total
psycho babble, you know, it was just
impossible to understand. And so I I do
think there's this like sort of weird,
you know, I don't know, inability to
sort of understand these transcendent
experiences.
>> Yeah. Inability to bring anything back.
And that's one of the things that
people, well, if it's real, if you
really are getting knowledge, why don't
you bring something back? Like, okay,
you don't know what you're saying
because you haven't done it. And if
you've done it, you would realize like,
oh, this is a mad consciousness
scramble. It's almost impossible to
relay to another person because we don't
have the words. We don't have the words
to describe these complex geometric
patterns that are constantly morphing
and changing. Also, they're conscious.
Also, they seem to be made out of light,
>> right?
>> Also, they seem to be they look like
things that you might have seen in like
ancient Egyptian artwork. And there's a
lot of like strange parallels to ancient
religious art and ancient like sacred
art and sacred geometry. There's some
weirdness to it. It's like these people
c like Alex Gray for instance, like a
modern day version of that. He's like
captured these things and you look at it
and anybody that's taken any trips, you
look at his stuff and you go, "Oh, I've
seen that. I've seen something like
that. There's there's something there.
He knows what this is and he's done a
fantastic job of relaying it. And if he
lived thousands of years ago and we
looked at his art and he he'd probably
be thought of as like some sort of a
prophet who like had these very bizarre
abilities to communicate with whatever
it is, the afterlife, the the the great
beyond, the other dimensions, whatever
it is. He he can encapsulate it and
bring some of it back so you can get a
look at it.
>> Totally. Yeah. He's actually a
counterpoint to what we just said. like
he actually does bring that back and you
look at his art and you're like, "Oh my
god."
>> And it's very rare if you think about
it. Like think about how long people
have been tripping and how this one guy
is sort of universally known as being
the absolute best at capturing it. It's
wild and it's I feel like we're on the
precipice of Yeah, I know you had Andrew
Gallammore on who, you know, wrote a
great book called Alien Information
Theory and he, you know, just as uh, you
know, astronauts go into deep space and
aquinauts go into the deep sea, it's,
you know, psychonauts are systematically
going into the DMT realm with this slow
intravenous DMT DMT trip that he's
administering. Yes. and they're mapping
what they see in a more systematic way
because they say things like, "Oh, I'll
see literally plonic objects." A
platonic object is something that is
beyond 3D. It's like a tesseract. You
literally can't visualize a tesseract.
You can just see this the shadow of a a
tesseract because it's it's, you know,
too high dimensional, you know, for us
to conceive of. And so they'll come back
and they're like mapping these things
out. And that's just I'm so excited to
see
>> also mapping out very familiar entities
where they have like a specific number
of entities that everyone has
encountered.
>> That's just Yeah, it's fascinating. And
it's like, yeah, at what point do we
then just start to say, is that some
weird interior fabric of spaceime that
we're just haven't traversed or don't
fully understand?
>> Right. What is it?
>> What the is it? It's um it's really
interesting because these people what
what fascinates me the most in terms of
like the UFC UFC UFO experience, the UAP
experience is the people that had the
experiences before there was an
archetype, you know, before there was
this like iconic vision of like what
they looked like like Betty and Barney
Hill for example. Those are that's my
favorite UFO abduction story because
there was nothing in the zeitgeist that
they could draw from where they could
say, "Oh, I know what that is. I've seen
that before." Well, Outer Limits was
actually a popular CBS TV show that
aired premiered 11 days before their
experience. I I'm not taking away from
their experience. I think they
experienced something real. But
>> which episode was it? It was It was the
first episode of Outer Limits and the
aliens in Outer Limits, the eyes wrap
around their heads in a way that's
similar to what they described.
>> Oh, let's see what that looks like. Find
out episode one of Outer Limits. That's
interesting. I did not know that. So,
what year was that?
>> That was uh I think 1962.
>> Whoa, how creepy looking. Ew.
>> But it's So, Betty and Barney Hill also
described the aliens looking like Nazis
at one point.
>> Whoa. Barney says that which is really
trippy. So
>> he said they look like Nazis
>> at one point. Yeah,
>> cuz you can actually get the audio of
the Betty and Barney Hill.
>> Yeah, we've listened to part of it, but
it's mostly just them like yelling.
>> Look, that's the image. Look at the
image. Is that the image of what they
saw? Is that a drawing?
Cuz god, that looks exactly like the
Outer Limits. They might have got mind
by TV. But then again, it's like
maybe whatever the it is manifests
itself as something that's familiar to
you.
>> Yeah. Or maybe it has control like
dominion over sort of everything and
they're seeding themselves in through
media and you know I it's so hard to
sculpture of the being Betty and Barney
Hill encounter. My god, that looks a lot
like the outer limits thing.
>> There you go.
>> Well, it's like it's that's the
question. It's like what is that? Her
holding it. Did she make it herself?
Interesting.
Boy,
that looks a lot like the outer limits
thing. The the question is like if if
consciousness is rendering
something and something from somewhere
else, something that you normally can't
access is
exchanging information with you in some
sort of a strange way. and it's doing it
while you're in a semic-conscious state,
right? Would it try to represent itself
as something that's familiar?
>> I mean, maybe it's just like our
primitive
visual ability, our our primitive all of
our senses, which are very crude and
primatriven.
They're basically like your eyes are in
the front of your head because you're a
predator and you you're you're basically
like a tribal territorial ape that has,
you know, really kind of
it's grown out of its its genetics. You
like you're in some new state. So you're
communicating with something that is a
beyond your comprehension. And so it's
like instead of showing myself as a
tesseract, instead of showing, you know
what I mean? Like instead of showing
myself as geometric patterns that are
constantly morphing and made out of
light, I don't think this monkeyy's
going to be able to handle this. These
silly humans, I'm going to have to like
show myself as something that was a
television character. And that's why
when Bettyy's drawing that, maybe she
doesn't even realize that like it looks
a lot like what she saw on TV.
>> Totally. And
>> I think Oh,
>> clarify something maybe. I just feel
like I misunderstood it. Uh, their event
happened in 1961.
That episode aired in 1964, but it was
12 days before they had their hypnotic
regression.
>> Regression. Got it. Interesting. So,
their hypnotic regression was that long
afterwards.
>> Yes. Three years to two and a half.
>> Huh. That's interesting. So, when did
they start describing an experience? Was
it pre-hypnot like what what prompted
them to have a hypnotic regression?
>> I believe she had like she came home and
she had like I think some blood on her
and she was like something they had a
lot of missing time. They had like 5
hours of missing time. They were on a
road trip and it was back to their place
I think in Vermont.
>> That's very that changes things a little
bit. But also there's the problem there
is that human memory sucks.
>> It does.
>> Memory sucks. And if you're you have a
memory of a very traumatic experiences
three years ago and then also you just
watched outer limits then things get
squirrely cuz like if you're
communicating with something and it's
literally telepathically engaging with
you and it can read your mind and it's
telling you to calm down. It's got you
on a spaceship. Like how much of that do
you especially whatever happened to you?
it somehow or another rendered your
memory
out like you can't really remember it.
So you're hypnotically
accessing this memory
>> and then you also have this like recent
experience of watching a television
show.
>> Totally. But yeah, you're you're
paralyzed. There's often missing time
and so at that point you have to say
these beings have total control over
your entire reality. And so it's hard to
say exactly what happened. According to
the wiki I got that this happened in
November of ' 61 for 10 days or 10 days
after she started having dreams or one
of the two 10 days after the alleged
encounter she began having dreams and
then a year later
at church they ran into a captain of the
air force and then some hypnosis
discussions started but then two years
later church
>> is when those sessions happened. So
there's not a lot of the timeline, at
least according to the wiki, is not
really kept well here,
>> right?
>> So it's that's a long period of time.
>> Listen to this. Barney described the
beings as generally similar to Betty's
hypnotic recollection. He said the being
stared into his eyes with a terrifying,
mesmerizing effect. Under hypnosis,
Barney said, "Oh, those eyes, they're in
my brain. They're there in my brain."
from his first hypnotic session. I was
told to close my eyes because I saw two
eyes coming close to mine and I felt
like the eyes had pushed into my eyes.
All I see are these eyes. I'm not even
afraid that they're not connected to a
body. They're just there. They're just
up close to me pressing against my eyes.
Uh when Betty reported a conversation
with the leader in English, Barney said
that he had heard them speaking in a
mumbling language he did not understand.
Betty also mentioned this detail. The
few times they communicated with him.
Barney said it seemed to be thought
transference at the time. He was
unfamiliar with the word telepathy.
That's interesting. Like he didn't know
what the word telepathy was. And the the
concept of speaking through the mind
wasn't even it wasn't even in pop
culture yet to
>> totally. And it's it's it's hard to
debunk that something paranormal
happened, you know, like it's these they
seem like completely of sound mind and
there's this missing time and then you
have all these high up head honchos, you
know, at Air Force. I believe um this
guy Charles Douglas Jackson who was this
head head honcho um as well and kind of
the Pentagon came and visited them. So
it's I I think it's clear that something
happened and then what happened? It's
just hard to say. It's it's really hard
to say
>> like who
why is the Air Force talking to them?
That's that's the real question,
>> right? Well, because I think they had an
interest. you know, Project Blue Book
was running at the time, and it's clear
now if you do deeper research that they
knew more than they let on. Jaylen
Heinik, you know, later kind of
apologized and admitted he played a part
in the cover up. And so, they were
probably doing real research with
abductees while they were kind of
downplaying, you know, and rationalizing
everything to the public.
>> So, Jamie just pulled something up. Um,
it says on November 23rd, 1962, the
Hills attended a meeting at the
parsonage of their church where Captain
Ben H. Sweat of the United States Air
Force was a guest speaker. Uh, having
had an interest in hypnosis, the Hills
approached Sweat privately and related
their strange encounter. Sweat was
particularly interested in the missing
time of the Hills accounts. The Hills
asked if he would hypnotize them to
recover their memories, but Sweat
declined and cautioned them against
going to an amateur hypnotist such as
himself.
>> I wonder what the meeting was about that
they were that he was like, you know,
talking at,
>> right,
>> that they just went to like
>> a meeting, right,
>> by hypnosis, maybe like just in general.
>> Yeah, but he's an he's like a
self-proclaimed amateur hypnotist. Why
would an amateur hypnotist have a
meeting at a church about hypnotism?
And I I especially like in 1962, I'd
imagine a lot of people running churches
were super skeptical about even that
concept. And they might even thought it
was like blasphemy or sorcery or some
something you're not supposed to devil.
>> Yeah. Something you're not supposed to
be with.
>> What did this guy do?
>> It's coming from his website.
>> He's got a website.
>> A testimony from him.
I read some of my poetry to a meeting at
the rectory of the Unitarian Church in
Portsouth, New Hampshire. I wasn't a
member of the church. Didn't know anyone
there.
>> Why does he have a donation link on his
website?
>> Uh, this is for the Way Back Machine.
>> Oh, I see. Okay.
>> He was studying hypnosis and they wanted
to hear about it.
>> Does seem a little awfully convenient.
>> Kind of odd that someone was studying
hypnosis.
>> They had him in to read his poetry. He
had nothing to do with the church at
all. The the craziest thing about this
story is Betty told this famous UFO
researcher from Sweden, this guy
Clausvon, who actually has the largest
UFO archive in the world in in Sweden.
She said that she saw a UFO crash later
and she buried a little piece of it in
her house at in Portsouth, New
Hampshire. And so there might be a
little piece of a UFO in her old house.
And if if you live there, go dig in your
backyard and see.
>> Well, it's probably not there until you
experience it.
>> Yeah, maybe. I don't know.
>> Your consciousness renders.
>> That's right.
>> This is kind of strange. Uh this those
lines right there
>> cuz this is the timeline here is weird
cuz he did this in ' 62 and then he's
saying he also came back in ' 63 and
that's when the UFO stuff started. said
they started telling me about something
that happened to them that they when as
they were driving home from Canada the
night of 19 to 20 September 1961 a light
in the sky seemed to follow them and
then circled them and being stopped on
the road and how they later realized
that they had a threehour gap in their
memories as they told their story.
Barney's face kept twitching
spasmotically
on one side.
>> I didn't like the looks of that.
>> What?
>> Whoa.
>> The missing time is also a weird one
because that's uh that also hadn't been
something that was in the zeitgeist. Was
that in the outer limits? Probably not.
No.
>> But yet that has become a part of the
experience that all these abductees
discuss.
>> Absolutely. They discuss like all of a
sudden they're back in their car and
they're sitting on the side of the road
and they're like, "Okay, what the
just happened?"
>> I was just telling Jamie before we were
rolling. So, um, 1977 Ellsworth Air
Force Base in South Dakota, there are
two missile security officers, uh, two
sergeants, uh, a guy named Mario Woods
and, um, Michael Johnson. And Mario sees
this UFO sort of, you know, circling the
base. and he flashes the little, you
know, perimeter flood lights at this UFO
and he thinks nothing of it. He goes
back, you know, he and Michael are
hanging out. I think four or five hours
go by and there's a big alert and it's
an inner zone and outer zone alert. So,
basically the security perimeter to a
hydro hydrogen bomb, a live
thermonuclear weapon has been breached
and Yeah. and they get in their car and
they go check it out because they it's
always, you know, twoman rapid response
teams. They go check it out. There is a
what he describes as a blazing red orb
the size of a Walmart. So, a massive
like a that's the way he describes it.
It's a huge like storefront sized like
city block sized uh
UFO. And then he says a little like like
a black kind of like almost like a drone
or emissary orb that's like the size of
a golf cart comes out. Four beings hover
towards them. They black out. They black
in 5 and a half hours later 8 miles away
in Newell or sorry next to a dam. I
think it's it's closer to Newell. Um,
and uh, it's 8 miles off the base and
uh, they immediately get questioned by
Air Force Office of Special
Investigations and the Air Force Office
of Special Investigations agent who is
involved admits he was there for this
debrief and admits that this happened.
His name is Rick Dodie and I just so
they were separated after that, Michael
and Mario. I just introduced them for
the reintroduced them for the first
time. I found Michael. So Mario had been
going on all these podcasts since the
'9s being like, "Where's Mike?" Like, he
has idetic picture perfect photographic
memory. You'd love him. He's like the
coolest guy. And he remembers everything
to a tea that happened to him, including
his debrief. He remembers the names of
the people there. It's so obvious
something happened to him. And
>> did he always have that memory, that
ability?
>> He always had that ability. He's clearly
just very talented when it comes to
memory. and and he'd been looking for
for Michael forever. He asked the FBI to
find him. He asked uh uh the All Domain
Anomalies Resolution Office, which is
the official Pentagon office, you know,
around UFOs to find him. He hired, you
know, private investigators. And this
dude uh DM'd me on Instagram, shout out
fan of the show, Jason Miller. Um and uh
and then we just got a recruiter to find
Michael Johnson because that was the one
missing piece of the story. and they
they reconnected and it was like the
most emotional why cuz they hadn't seen
each other. They saw each other once I
think two weeks after the abduction to
like trade notes and draw pictures of
what happened to them like the beings on
the ship and you know I I think um Yeah,
there you go. Yeah, this is
>> all this time you never forgot me. You
never
>> Which guy is which?
>> So Michael Johnson is the black dude on
the left. Mario Woods on the right.
>> And Wish is the guy with the crazy
memory.
>> Mario's on the right. That's Mario. They
look the same, man.
>> Michael honestly has a great memory,
too.
>> So, these two guys, do they have a
similar story or is it exact?
>> Do they have variation?
>> They have a very similar story. Not, you
know, perfectly one to one, but they're
very honest about like, you know, the
minor
uh
>> Yeah, he's crying like
>> Yeah. doesn't come out tomorrow, but
I thought I'd send it to Jamie.
>> Wow.
>> Isn't that crazy?
>> Wow. When does that episode come out?
>> Uh, this week. So, in a few days. Yeah.
>> Oh, what a teaser.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Nice.
>> But, um, it's it's crazy how similar the
their memories are. So, like, uh, both
>> I've heard of this event and I've seen
it rendered online, like fake, like some
fake version of it.
>> People call it the most convincing alien
abduction ever because of Mario's
memory. It's insane
>> the level of recall. And um
>> has his memory been tested to make sure
that he's not delusional?
>> I don't know if his memory's been
tested, but when you I mean like I've
known him for two and a half years and I
I interviewed him for the first time I
think yeah two and a half years agoish
and I speak to him you know pretty
regularly and his memory is crazy like
even in that period around like little
things where was like this restaurant
remember the waiter here and this and
that like he just has a wild memory.
Yeah,
>> he has a very good memory. There's that
actress. Do you know Marylu Henner? Do
you know who she is? She was on that
show Taxi. Okay.
>> And she has that very specific kind of
memory and it's super unusual where she
can recall
>> not just a the day, but but like she can
tell you if you give her a date what day
it was and what happened that day and
like you know what was in the news and
what was on television. Like Mary Lu
Henner.
>> That's insane.
>> Yeah. Highly superior autobiographical
memory.
a rare condition allowing her to vividly
recall specific dates, weather,
emotions, and personal experiences for
nearly every day of her life since
childhood. Wow. You know who else is? I
mean, uh the inspiration for Rainman,
Kim Peak, similar thing. You'd be like,
"What what was the weather like?" uh you
know, November 7th, uh 1681, and like
it's like insane like that. And
often it occurs after a traumatic brain
injury for whatever reason.
>> That's weird.
>> It is weird.
>> And and it points to maybe the receiver,
the transmission theory of consciousness
stuff, right? You know,
>> like it rattled something loose.
>> Exactly.
>> Yeah. There's a lot of people that
develop mathematical abilities
>> after head injuries. Like people that
have never been good at anything and all
of a sudden they could do physics,
>> right? Like where does that come from?
What is that? or these, you know,
nonverbal um often autistic children and
the telepathy tapes. I know you had Kai
Dickens on
>> where they're very kind of disembodied
and, you know, it's it's kind of
sometimes hard for them to navigate the
world, but they just their know their
ability to glean knowledge. It's like
they're shortcircuiting our knowledge
pathways. Like they'll know like certain
Egyptian hieroglyphics without ever
having learned about them in school
>> and they can read them. and they can
read them and they meet up on this
telepathic hill. It's like they have
abilities that we don't and they're
actually in some ways more disembodied.
And so it's like there's something about
like we're we're ported into our bodies
but our senses like you when you when
you gain a sense you lose your former
sense or something. And so they're
disembodied. It if you're in a VR you
know system or whatever
>> you're not going to like understand
what's going on outside of it. But if
you're this non-verbal autistic child
who again other people might call them,
you know, not like maladaptive for the
world, not, you know, unable to navigate
the world, they're actually geniuses on
this whole other level. Like they can
sort of short circuit the way we learn,
>> right? And they don't get in their own
way, the way we do.
>> They don't. And there's no traditional
neuroscientific model that explains
that. You have to go into the sort of
Tom Campbell area.
>> Yeah. I've often wondered if maybe what
we're seeing from non-verbal autistic
people and just people on the spectrum
in general is instead of it being like
instead of it being like the way we look
at it is like like you said maladaptive
like that these people have an
unfortunate situation that's happened to
them but maybe what we're looking at is
an emerging type of consciousness and
like if you think about what is wrong
with the human race.
Well, you know, a lot of it has to do
with ego and what we were talking about
earlier, these territorial primate
instincts, the the desire to accumulate
resources and the desire to, you know,
to dominate and to to get status and all
all these different things that human
beings are
captured by. Well, these people aren't
captured by those things at all. And if
we want to get past where we are now,
well, what better way than you introduce
some new whether it's natural selection
or some random mutation or whatever it
is or maybe even some sort of
environmental adaptation that allows
them to become a different kind of
person. Like maybe that is the future.
It totally could be the future. and and
you watch or you know uh listen to the
telepathy tapes and you're like we're
we're maladaptive like they are so
heart-c centered it's almost like
they're living in the future. Yeah. If
you look at you know if if if any of the
UFO stuff points to a future modality of
like how we learn maybe the this sort of
intuition and telepathy sort of gets
selected for and our sort of you know
prefrontal cortex reasoning actually
gets selected against. I don't know.
>> Yeah, I don't know either. But it's odd
that it's emerging as a part of a a you
know much more so now because of you
know various debatable factors whether
it's vaccines or environmental exposure
to co to toxins or whatever you have a a
much higher incidence of this taking
place now as our society becomes more
and more complex and as we move closer
and closer to this like balancing act
between like nuclear war and utopia like
where are we going to land you know like
Well, you know, maybe we're going to
have to get past whatever it is that we
have clung to about being a person. This
this thing that we think is so
important.
>> There's a great book by the great Arthur
C. Clark called Childhood's End. And he
talks about um aliens sort of incepting
the world through telepathic children.
And it's so it's again interesting how
fiction sort of can mirror reality maybe
where a lot of these kids actually in
the telepathy tape see other beings.
They see other worldly beings and it's
sort of casual to them. They're like,
"Yeah, of course, aliens." You know,
like it's it's not even a thing to them.
And so they might already just be living
sort of in the in this future kind of
expanded epistemology that we're we're
sort of limited if if the Campbell thing
is right like our consensus collapsing
functions just narrower and theirs might
be just wider,
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Ziprecruiter, right? And then when
people consume all these bizarre plants
that allows them to tap into some
something
like if you've heard about that mushroom
that makes you see little people. No.
What is this?
>> Oh, it's very weird. So, this mushroom
is apparently it's a food mushroom and
it's not psilocybin and people eat it.
But if it's not cooked correctly, if
it's not cooked like to a certain
temperature, apparently the side effect
is you start to see little people
everywhere.
>> No way.
>> Yeah. They saw them on their dishes when
eating the mushrooms are making people
hallucinate. Dozens of tiny humans.
>> What? Like like little humans standing
on the plates and stuff.
>> I don't know.
>> Like honey, I shrunk the kids sort of.
>> We can we can try to figure out like
what they're saying. It's not the
Amonita mascara. That's a picture of
Ammonita Miscaria, which is the uh
>> also very trippy. Possibly
>> dancing on mushroom
>> the Eucharist.
>> Yeah.
>> According to one scholar,
>> not Yeah. Well, that that's a we that's
a weird one, too. It's just it's so
ubiquitous in ancient depictions of
Santa Claus and of uh even religious art
like the you've seen the fresco in
France. It's a very old fresco of Adam
and Eve. And instead of the tree of the
knowledge of good and evil, it's not a
tree at all. It's a it's an aminita
mascaria mushroom. It's this huge like
mushroom spore with like multiple
growth. Have you seen it?
>> I haven't seen that.
>> I think it's 900 years old, something
like that. It's really old. See if you
can find that fresco in It's in I
believe it's in France. In France. They
don't like that. France. Uh France. That
is a um it's a depiction of uh Adam and
Eve and the tree of the knowledge of
good and evil.
That's it.
>> Wow.
>> I mean that looks very similar to
ammonita miscarriia being that ammonita
miscarriia which has a a red cap and
white dots all over it.
>> I don't know how many mushrooms have
white dots all over it like that, but
that seems to look like that.
>> No, that seems to look a lot like that,
>> you And then there's the uh John Marco
Allegro, the guy who wrote uh the sacred
mushroom in the cross, the the guy who
was on the Dead Sea Scrolls Commission,
who was an ordained minister, but also
was agnostic. And after 14 years of
deciphering the Dead Sea Scrolls, he's
like, I think
this is all about fertility rituals and
the consumption of psychedelic
mushrooms.
>> And everybody's like, what the are
you talking about? But that's what if
you like Brian Murescu I know you've had
on multiple times the immortality key or
Carl Ruck like they all sort of you know
come to that conclusion and even Martin
Luther King wrote an essay called the
pagan continuity hypothesis which is
that Christian didn't Christianity
didn't arise in a vacuum.
>> Martin Luther King
>> Martin Luther King wrote a book about
how it was there was a continuum between
these sort of pagan mystery rituals and
the advent of Christianity.
>> Wow. So look at this. Even to this day,
science doesn't understand what's going
on in the brain to cause this or how to
treat it. And this mushroom is the only
thing that we currently know of to
reliably produce this effect, said
University of Utah researcher Colin uh
Domnau in a new interview with Live
Science, adding that the gnomeike beings
appear after about 12 to 24 hours and
may stick around for several days to
follow. These aren't like some vague
hallucinations. These are like
threedimensionally rendered, highly
detailed figures inhabiting your
exterior world. And they're also
interacting with objects in the real
world, like crawling up chairs and
tables or under doorways.
>> Think of having to explain that
condition if it hasn't gone away to
somebody that you don't know. Like, I'm
really sorry.
>> How about the fact that it shows up a
day later? So, you you have some Chinese
food and they forgot to cook the
mushrooms, right? And then a day later
you've got like little dudes crawling up
the chairs and it lasts for
days.
>> So absurd.
>> I found that after it saying many people
don't even feel any type of uh
hallucination or thing except for
>> except for the miniature people.
>> That is the funniest thing.
>> Whoa. Um it's called the Lan Moa. How do
you say that? Lama
>> Asiatica. Um, so what what type of it's
it's Asian cooking. Like what China? So
here it is. Uh, it's native to the pine
forest in both southwestern China and
the northern Philippines where it's wild
harvested and sold in local markets for
typical culinary use. Yet despite
decades of anecdotal reports of
hallucinations, usually as a result of
undercooking, the ingredient um the
species became known to science only
about 10 years ago.
>> Wow. Throw that in with the puffer fish
of things you don't want to cook
incorrectly.
>> Well, or you do.
>> Or you do, depending on what you're
looking
>> raw. What happens if you eat it raw?
These little people are said to be
typically like teasing, playing with, or
harassing the person seeing them.
Boy, I mean, doesn't that mirror the
talk of like gnomes and elves like
throughout history?
>> Totally. Yeah. Trickster sort of
phenomenon.
>> That guy's got it right there.
>> Yeah. And that's the guy call.
>> I would drug test Colin in a
heartbeat. Look at that fella.
>> I bet he's embedded.
>> He's having fun out there.
>> He's embibed.
>> Post-doal student, University of Utah.
We might have to have Colin on.
>> I think he should.
>> Yeah, seems like it. Very interesting.
>> So, this is crazy. Whereas the genes
responsible for synthesizing
psychoactive compounds in typical magic
mushrooms are well documented.
>> Uh Don Mau Dawn Mau's team found none in
Laziatica.
>> There weren't even known psychoactive
compounds. So it seems like this must be
some new hallucinogenic compound waiting
to be discovered because there's nothing
that matches anything in our database.
>> That's so weird.
>> So someone's going to isolate that and
turn that into a drug.
>> What the man? Weird. You imagine
dose somebody with that and try to con
if you're trying to convince someone
that they're going crazy. He dose them
with that and like, uh, are you alone,
Mike? Are you alone in this room with
me? No. There's little people
everywhere. I told you. Let's take his
money.
>> Oh my god. It's like a It's like the
pranky pull where everyone goes silent.
They're mouththing or whatever with you,
but like on steroid. Like the worst
version of that ever.
>> What the man? And how long have
people known about this mushroom? 10
years which
>> right us western world
>> but how how long have they known in
Asia?
>> Let me perplexity this and see what
other fun information I can get.
>> Throw that into our AI sponsor
perplexity because I want to know
whether or not that's why they cook it.
>> I also wonder put it in salads before
and trip for a month.
>> There's some origin story. The original
chef saw little people for the rest of
his life. Yeah. What happens if you eat
it raw?
Only one way to find out.
>> Yeah. He hasn't tried it yet.
>> I'm scared. Yeah, right. Look at him.
>> Guy's eating a whole salad with it. I
guarantee you that dude's tried it. He's
full of I I have no idea.
>> I'm assuming this is what happens.
>> I am a scientist.
>> Yeah.
>> It's funny how a lot of those people
researching stuff like that, they they
know. Like for the the first time I
interviewed Rick Stman,
>> Uhhuh.
>> he didn't want to talk about his own
personal DMT experiences. That's so
often the case cuz they want to separate
it and it's like it's all good. You're
talking about this being a thing like to
me it lends more credibility if you've
experienced it.
>> Yes. But
>> in his defense when we first started
talking and when I first had him on the
world was a different place in terms of
just the acceptance of this stuff. This
is like this predates people going to
like Costa Rica and having Iaska
experiences that wasn't commonly talked
about. It wasn't a like everybody talks
about that now. No, it's
>> this predates uh any IBA gain
experiences. Any even concept of there's
a plant that you could take that cures
you of any kind of addictions that you
have.
>> This predates you sitting behind the
president of the United States and
helping see through this dstigmatization
and legalization of these treatments.
>> It predates a lot of that.
>> Yeah, fair enough. It predates people's
understanding of why these things are
illegal in the first place as well,
which I thought was like really
important when we did that press
conference to say that this is this is
not illegal because it's harmful and the
world's trying to protect you from this.
This is illegal because of the Nixon
administration.
>> Totally.
>> Yeah. It's it didn't make it and they've
probably set our
psychological evolution, the evolution
of our culture back hundreds of years.
>> Potentially cool thing.
>> Aha. possible ancient Chinese reference.
A 3rd century CE Dowist text described a
flesh spirit mushroom which when eaten
raw lets one see a little person and
attain transcendence transcendence. This
is intriguing but it's not confirmed
species identification. So it should not
be treated as proof that the text refers
to Laziatica. Okay. Well, what other
mushrooms allow you to see little
people? They call it uh Liliputin
Hallucinations.
>> Papa New Guinea mushroom madness in the
Western Highlands beginning in 1934
involving dramatic behavioral changes
and reports consistent with little
person visions. This exact mushroom
involved remains unconfirmed. It may or
may not have been Laziatica. Well, I bet
the Pow New Guinea climate is probably
at least reasonably similar to the
Philippines, right?
>> Yeah.
modern documentation
uh Chinese researchers reported ca cases
of liilapucian hallucinations after
mushroom consumption in Eunan in 1991.
Laziotica itself was only formally
described scientifically in 2015 after
market specimens were genetically
examined. Wow.
>> But it sounds just like Gulver's
travels. We have like a
>> an explanation of it. So wouldn't it be
maybe that's what the author of that
book,
>> right? Oh, probably at least had a story
about
>> That's probably what it is.
>> That's probably it. exactly what
it is. This guy went on a journey and
like I tell you little tiny
people are with me.
>> Exactly.
>> It's like I wonder like what that is and
whether or not they're actually here all
the time and that just lets you pop in
>> and check. Who knows?
>> Yeah.
>> It's hard to say. Well, we're so limited
in our senses. Just think about what we
know about just think about what we know
about the quantum world, what we know
about subatomic particles. Like, we
can't see those, but yet we know they
exist. Well, why can't we see them?
Because our senses aren't good enough.
So, like
>> you can't even measure them at there's
like Heisenberg uncertainty principles
where you can't measure the position and
momentum at the same time of an electron
perfectly accurately.
>> Yeah. And they also can be in two places
at one time,
>> which is what? Okay.
>> Yeah. Not two different things. No.
Okay. They also could be still and
moving at the same time. Okay. What the
are we even talking about? It
sounds like we're talking about
or magic or or both.
>> Right. So, our senses are the real
culprit here. It's a real problem.
>> And back then, real scientists, credible
scientist like Einstein was going to
debate Neil's Boore. There's a great
book called What is Real by a guy named
Adam Becker about all of this where
Einstein was saying the quantum stuff is
too spooky as they call it spooky action
at a distance. It's too weird and we
need to reconcile it with some sort of
onlogical truth or reality. You can't
just say shut up and calculate. It's not
just this like mathematical formalism.
And I think now it's turned into just
this like heruristic for like doing
science. Oh, we built transistors and
semiconductors based on quantum
mechanics or whatever. But actually,
it's like way trippier if you like look
into like what it points to as far as
reality itself. It's way weirder.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. M McKenna was one of the first
people that I ever heard talk about like
using psilocybin mushrooms in particular
as a method of contacting UFOs,
>> you know, and he was like, you know,
people that are looking for UFO, well,
they're very available.
>> His weird way of talking.
He was almost like a machine elf himself
the way he spoke. He would like kind of
I don't know he had this kind of
trickstery vibe. There's an amazing clip
actually with him and John Mack where
John Mack is actually getting like kind
of very ideologically angry and actually
similar to what you just said about Rick
Straman. He he had gone through this
crazy kind of review of his credentials
at Harvard. he was being almost stripped
of them of his position rather because
of looking into you know alien
abductions of as you know this lead at
Harvard in in the psychiatry department
>> and you just see like McKenna sort of
like goating him along and being kind of
cheeky and he was just such a funny
interesting character who was so
simultaneously trippy but also precise
in his language was extremely smart.
Yeah, extremely smart, but also like
really wanted to believe. Like he had
that weird timewave zero thing that he
had he thought there was going to be
some sort of an event on December 21st,
2012, which is the end of the long count
of the Mayan calendar. He was convinced
that like there was going to be some
sort of a an event like that time was
and he thought, you know, obviously this
is in the 90s when he was talking about
this and discussing it, he thought it
was going to be the invention of a time
machine.
>> That's so crazy. Yeah,
>> he would also trip for weeks on end as
you know with his brother in the Amazon
and he would download all sorts of
stuff. I almost feel like the implicit
kind of foundational philosophy that he
has is that mushrooms are aliens
themselves. Yeah. And the reason I I
think that is because so in 1973 I
believe Francis Crick who discovered the
double helical structure of DNA uh wrote
a paper and then he followed it up with
a book in 1981 called life itself and
it's all about how DNA in a 100 million
years it's too short of a period of time
for it to have formed on Earth. So you
needed some sort of panspermia
>> and so you needed something to have
traveled interstellar. What's the best
candidate for traveling interstellar?
probably an extreophile something like a
mushroom.
>> Yes,
>> mushrooms are almost like zip files of
consciousness. They show up at the end
of life and before life and so like if
you look at Chernobyl for example like
what grows first after the you know
experience mushrooms you know it's you
have the they call it the woodwide web I
believe in in Oregon it's like the you
know largest organism in the world is is
actually like a myellular network and
then where it gets really trippy is like
if you think about a cartesev four scale
civilization which is cartesev scales
are basically like our ability to
harness energy but you could think of it
as like a completely intergalactic
civilization that's like just very deep
space fairing. What would it look like?
Would it look like a kind of bipedal
homminid where you like show up, you
know, on another planet and you get
you're this fragile kind of meaty thing
that gets shot at? No. You would be this
like zip file of consciousness
extreophile that would spread all
throughout other planets and you would
basically create a symbiotic
relationship with hosts and we all have
microbiomes. It's p to say that but we
also all have microbiomes that accompany
the microbiomes and there's the mind gut
connection is also this p thing to talk
about obviously you have the vagus nerve
you have neurotransmitters getting
created so um you know mushrooms
obviously affect our thinking you can
watch you know bullet ants in the Amazon
getting like taken over by cortisep
mushrooms and literally their their
whole mus muscular ske skeletal system
are being you know they're being
controlled by the mushrooms and then you
look at specific jumps in human
evolution. And the the one that people
talk about is obviously the stoned ape
theory, which is, you know, why did we
double in cranial size between 2 million
years ago, homoabilis, and homo sapiens
300,000 years ago? That's really trippy.
Maybe it was because as hunter
gatherers, we were following, you know,
animals. Animals take shits. And there's
psilocybin cubensus or, you know, grow
on on poop. And, you know, and then
people would, you know, trip out. They
take these mushrooms and they trip out
and then you get like neurogenesis and
you get these epigenetic changes and you
get this doubling of cranial size. But
what's the other big break in human
evolution 10,000 years ago which is the
advent of civilization and culture and
think about you know uh what really is
the kind of the line break there. What
happened? We created you know an
agrarian society like we basically
agriculture. So you have wheat, barley
and rye were the first crops that we
grew and what grow what grows on wheat,
barley and rye? Urgot and these sort of
psychedelic substances. And so I think a
lot of people assume that the
agriculture gets created and then you
get specialization, you get
urbanization, you get history, you get
religion. All these things are
downstream of like we have more time. We
can think about this stuff. But what if
they're downstream of the tripping that
occurred? And if you talk if you look at
actually um you know the immortality key
by Brian Mur rescue he will openly say I
think these mystery rituals go way back
before the Greeks and so and you had
prescratic rituals that Peter Kingsley
writes about Haidiger writes about this.
So how far back did it go? Maybe it goes
back to that that big break, you know,
around then. And then you get into this
thing of like are uh mushrooms sort of
symbiotic, you know, cardartesev forcale
aliens that, you know, are Trojan horses
for their own species that like we
ingest. They get into us and then they
sort of subtly control our thoughts, our
behavior, our perception. And you know,
it goes back to the McKenna. McKenna
actually had this trip in the Amazonian
forest and he says um about the
mushroom. He says he's speaking to the
mushroom and the mushroom says within my
memory exists uh the blueprints for
hyper light drive ships. So it's like
the mushrooms are seeding us with this
ability to go interstellar. And think
about all of the crazy ideas that we've
gotten from psychedelics, you know. So,
who are we to say that our evolution is
not being co-directed or assisted by,
you know, something else? And we're now
saying this in the in the, you know,
we're seeing this with bacteria and
other things like that that, you know,
it's it's hard to say exactly what scale
or hierarchy, you know, um, biological
evolution occurs, but, you know, I think
I think, uh, you know, mushrooms are a
really great candidate. Also, humans
mistake human tissue for uh uh fungal
diseases. We're we're so susceptible to
fungal disease because human and
mushroom DNA are actually very similar.
Human and and mushroom and and and
myellular DNA are more phoggenetically
similar than humans and plant DNA.
>> Yeah. Mushrooms breathe air.
>> There you go.
>> Just like when you tell people that they
go, whoa.
>> Yeah. and they can survive in a vacuum.
>> In a vacuum and they're very homeostatic
in nature. They like can like eat
plastic in certain situations and stuff.
And so it's like they are the stewards
of the earth. If you if you get out of
line too much or something, it's like
they'll, you know, and then think about
people that take mushrooms. They become
more like conscientious vis the entire
earth. So they're they're very sort of
like um they're all about ecological
balance. It's just so stunning how one
presidential administration that was
trying to stop the anti-war movement and
the civil rights movement threw water on
like one of the most profound compounds
that exists on earth.
>> Totally. And it and Timothy Liry was
probably the CIA construct who was
>> You think so?
>> I think so. His wife thought that. I
think his wife thought that.
>> I believe so. I think there's a quote
around that.
>> Really? How so? Oh, was he a CIA
construct?
>> Well, I think it was it's similar to the
like Tom O'Neal chaos theory with Manson
where it's like uh he looks like a
hippie, smells like a hippie, was living
with Dennis Wilson, this you know, Beach
Boys or whatever, and then and then he
commits murder. So like, and then you
have the Joan Diddian quote that like
that's the day the 60s ended, you know,
the day the date of the Tate Labianca
murders. So I I think it's um maybe
somewhat similar here where it's like uh
you're dosing people with way too high
doses and you're like seeding a lot of
stuff you know uh too much and you're
like you're there's actually a quote
from Abby Hoffman um who was you know
obviously you know big hippie at the
time where he's like we were just
upright you know Berkeley students who
were protesting and then here came the
the the flower children from LA and
Laurel Canyon and stuff and they were
all about their drugs and their murders
and their guns and like they were they
were just sort of really crazy. And so I
think the theory is that Timothy Liry
was sort of pushing this stuff in an
overly aggressive way that would then
cause this sort of backlash similar to
the Manson thing.
>> Well, they also had like weird
connections to like biker gangs,
>> right? Like didn't the Ken Keezy and the
Mary Pranksters have weird connections
with like the Hell's Angels? Isn't that
how Hunter Thompson got involved with
the Hell's Angels? I think there's some
sort of a connection. I might be making
that up. I'm feeling very vague on this,
>> but I believe they partied together
quite a bit, which is like if you were I
mean I guess you're both outcasts of
society,
you know, I guess you could kind of
chalk it off to that, you know, like
that maybe if you're hanging out in
weird places, you're going to meet weird
people.
>> Yeah, totally. And I I I shouldn't say
I'm like extremely high conviction that
was a CIA agent, but
>> but even the the connection with biker
gangs, like biker gangs. Did you ever
read Hell's Angels?
>> No.
>> It's really great. It's uh one of I
think it's Hunter's breakout book and it
was before like it was very clear that
he was sort of blurring the lines
between fiction and reality like with
literature like a literary license. But
what what essentially happened was these
guys came home from Vietnam completely
disillusioned. They'd killed a bunch of
people. They'd been shot at. They'd seen
their friends die. They didn't want to
have any part in this society
anymore. And they just wanted to ride
motorcycles and be free. And this is
what started sort of the biker movement
in America. M
>> and when you think about the people that
were in Vietnam, well, Vietnam was all
about drugs to begin with. The whole
reason why we wanted control over that
area of the world, that's the golden
triangle. That's where they were
bringing in all the opium. That's where
there was billions of dollars of
drugs coming through there. same as
Afghanistan, very similar in that way,
is that we conveniently find like really
important conflicts that we have to be
involved in that just happen to be the
hubs of massive amounts of drug money.
>> And so when these people were over
there, they were a lot of them were
doing drugs. A lot of them were hooked
on drugs. A lot of them came back and
suffered through withdrawals when they
returned to America. And so those are
the type of people that you would
imagine would be like, well, this
life. Yeah,
>> you know, I am just going to do whatever
I can and I'll I'll rob the man.
I'll whatever. We're going to figure out
a way to make our own society and we're
going to be outlaws.
>> Just opt out.
>> Yeah. Opt out and do drugs. And and I
that's what they did. And so it kind of
makes sense in a way that they would
sort of meet the, you know, the Flower
Children and Ken Keezy and the Merry
Pranksters and Timothy Liry. kind of
makes sense that they would have
interaction with each other.
>> I feel like the the boomers in that
period like the late 60s early 70s had
this opportunity.
>> Sorry.
>> Okay.
>> Lir's research was rumored to be linked
to CIA which allegedly provide funded
funding. CIA was greatly interested in
the effects of mindaltering drugs in the
1960s and its drug research was
incorporated into the controversial MK
Ultra experiments. According to Walter
Boart, Liry admitted to working for the
CIA since 1962 as an important national
asset.
He's quoted by Boart as follows. I would
say that 80% of my movements, 80% of the
decisions I made were suggested to me by
CIA people. I like the CIA.
This is crazy. The game they're playing
is better than the FBI, better than the
Saigon police, better than Franco's
police, better than the Israeli police.
They're a thousand times better than the
KGB. So, it comes down to who are you
going to work for? The Yankees or the
Dodgers? What?
>> That's crazy.
>> What?
That's mad. Yeah.
>> This was a very weird 6 months he spent
uh conveniently right after he got out
of the army as a non-commission officer.
>> M. So he spent six months at Ohio State.
>> Wow.
>> Jamie.
>> All leads back to Ohio.
>> All roads lead to Ohio.
>> That's a very weird thing that stands
out to me.
>> Boy, it just keeps coming back to Ohio.
>> It's always there.
>> That's his number one rabbit hole.
>> Oh, I know. We've talked about it. We
got right Pat there. Right Patterson Air
Force Base. You have Battel Memorial
Institute there. You have a lot of weird
Epstein research.
>> They just took his name off the uh he
was been removed from the board or head
of the board, chairman of the board.
>> Who did?
>> Uh Wexner
>> because the Epstein stuff
>> really at Ohio State
>> just now.
>> Just took a bit I mean took a bit of
time.
>> I don't know who's responsible over
there. The right pat stuff is nuts.
Yeah,
>> that's that's that's weird because that
is the place when it was it was right
air for field at the time, right? Where
they think that they brought the Roswell
crash to.
>> Exactly. Yeah. 47. Yeah. And that would
be the place where you would bring it to
because they were reverse engineering
German pulse jet engines, Soviet MIGs,
that sort of thing. M
>> and there was this rumor of a blue room
there that actually there's a there's a
crazy video of um Barry Goldwater who
was a future presidential candidate
obviously senator from Arizona and he's
talking about Curtis Lame who's chief of
staff of the Air Force and he's like I I
asked Curtis Lame to show me into the
blue room at Wright Patterson because it
was this famous you know allegedly sort
of alien you know storage facility and
he goes he cussed me out of the room
I've never seen him get or angry at me.
>> Radio Shack outside Phoenix. The senator
disclaims direct knowledge of UFOs, but
he does confirm a disturbing story about
an exchange with General Curtis Lame.
>> Reportedly,
a spaceship landed.
It was all hushed up, quieted, and
nobody ever
heard about much of it.
I called her this lame and I said,
"General, uh, I know we have a room at
right
where you put all his secret stuff."
>> Was the worst audio ever?
>> I've never heard him get mad, but he got
mad or in hell at me, cussed me out,
said, "Don't ever ask me that question
again."
That's this audio by the same guy who
did the video inside the UFO.
>> Exactly.
>> They're just trying to with us.
It's just they're trying to with
us. That's also a really interesting
aspect of this whole concept of uh
whether or not consciousness is
rendering these things. If you're if
you're dealing with uh this reality
that's like subtly unfolding in front of
you, you kind of would have it a little
funky, a little weird, a little blurry,
a little odd, like like what better way
to slow drip introduce it to the general
public than to give it to you in these
weird blurry videos. Not like some 4K
crazy video of a mother ship
size of a football field flying over a
city. Undeniable. Nah. Let's give you
some black and white night
vision of a a a circle going in the
ocean coming out of the ocean where
you're like, "What is that? What am I
looking at? What are Well, that is a
trans medium device that is gone into
the water without creating a splash,
then gets out of the water and it's
going 300 knots under the water." Like,
what
>> exactly? What? No,
>> it's almost like it's like you said,
it's meant to with us. We are the
the end product is our belief system.
And and Jock Valle writes about this
concept of intermittent reinforcement
which comes from the psychologist BF
Skinner which is like if you give a rat
cocaine for example and you give it
regularly like you know on the dot every
day or whatever it'll like you know come
back and forth and like it'll not care
as I mean it's cocaine so it'll probably
want it but like if you give a rat
cocaine intermittently randomly
sporadically it'll freak out and just
get obsessed. And maybe cocaine's not
the best example, but any anything
sweet, you know, it it will become
obsessed with the thing because
there's something about the
intermittency
that makes it special. If it's regular,
it doesn't care. It knows it's there. It
knows it's going to be there at all
times.
>> And so, I think there's something about
the UFO phenomena where it's trickster.
It always leaves a variable left to be
questioned. And the end product is the
person's obsession for truth after the
fact.
>> Yeah. because there's there's never
going to be this smoking gun. It always
has a slight stigma attached to it. The
almost like a design feature of ufology
itself is the fact that I've never seen
a field where there is an this much
evidence, but there is very little
incontrovertible smoking gun evidence.
There is this much there's so much
evidence that like, you know, I had
Michael Shurmer, you know, famous
skeptic on my show who I know you've had
on, you know, many times and I feel like
I ran circles around him. Yeah.
>> Because he's not engaging with the these
really important data sets around UFOs
showing up around nuclear sites and that
sort of thing. Like you can
>> really argue with or you can convince
any reasonable person that there is
something going on and then it's very
hard to figure out exactly what. And for
whatever reason, there's this like sort
of mystery box smoking gun that, you
know, maybe Bob Lazar has seen. You
know, David Grush, I think, is this
really fascinating person because he
has, you know, he brought forward 40
people who claim to have firsthand
knowledge to the intelligence community,
Inspector General. So, that makes him
pretty special because he has this like
really bird's eyee vantage point over,
you know, from around all this stuff.
And he's obviously he himself has an
idetic memory. he's um you know somewhat
on the spectrum and so which you know he
he he talks about so he has this like
really really kind of crazy attention to
detail so it makes him this really
interesting sort of person and you have
you have things like that and then like
I don't know if there's a saucer and a
hanger at right Pat like you know I I'd
love to see it it'd be awesome and and
then you get into this sort of well you
know if that's like a payload delivery
system then obviously we can't see it
because it's like this national security
thing
It's almost like a design feature of the
thing itself. Like if if you were to
tell Jacqu Ble in 1975 or you know in
the 60s when he was Jaylen Heinik's
assistant, hey like this is how much
progress we've made on UFOs. I think
from the perspective of disclosure, he
might be pumped about the last 10 years,
but from the perspective of like
understanding what the they are,
he'd be like I I like I had the best
theory back then. I had, you know,
really good theories back then.
>> So, so like it's it's really crazy.
We're in the stone age on this stuff.
Uh, actually, somebody who's like really
up on I think he's I think he's he's
he's responsible for a lot of modern
disclosure, but he's like blown by a lot
of people is Tom Dong, the 182.
>> Crazy, right?
>> I thought he was a loon when he came on
my show. But more and more as time has
gone on, the things that he said have
been proven to be true.
>> Totally. And now, and I don't want to
talk too much out of turn, but like I
because I'm I'm friends with him and he
has some really interesting theories
around consciousness and how like uh
these events sort of occur when things
are really unstable. So like either to
uh uh discard things that are unstable
and that are threatening to sort of the
system all nuclear or um to save
something that is essential to preserve
the system. So it's like almost this
like regulatory thing. It's really
fascinating. It's like he's he's now
miles ahead of you know I think where a
lot of to me I was always like okay why
are they bringing Tom Deong in to have
conversations and now you know like like
he was being sort of briefed by very
high level intelligence people right.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that that whole
story of the to the stars academy is a
strange interesting.
>> It's all weird. It's it's also
weird that you would get the
drummer or the what what did he do in
Blink182?
>> I think he was the front man. I think
>> front man. Yeah, not the drummer. That
was Travis obviously. Uh like that you
get a guy who's a a big time rock star.
He was obsessed his entire life and I
think so. Yeah, I think he was
surrounded by some very interesting
people and in certain cases not so
savory people to be
>> really.
>> Yeah. Or just people who are associated
with sort of
>> disinformation.
>> Yeah. Or like you know James Clapper who
like you know probably lied in front of
Congress about wiretapping. So like why
should we trust on the UFO stuff you
know? Um, and I'm not saying that, you
know, Tom was necessarily I don't know
who who exactly he was in touch with,
but I think it was like that crowd of,
you know, people. Um, but I think people
what people don't understand and this is
what I pieced together from just knowing
him. I think he has sort of vigilante
gotten in touch with a lot like a lot of
these people like shut the door in his
face and he's like, "No, I'll fly out
there and I'll do anything and like I'll
I'll help like communicate this way. I
know you guys have been trying to
communicate this forever to the to the
public and like maybe I can help or
whatever. And I think a lot of it just
stemmed from his desire to know and his
like true passion for this that started
from when he was a kid and that was like
super organic.
>> But you also have to think like if you
wanted to get a narrative out there,
what better way than get a really famous
rock star
>> and feed him some horit.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's possible. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right.
>> Yeah. But also if you read secret
machines I think there's a lot then
that's you know he's written some books
actually and if you read the books
there's some really interesting things
kind of hidden in plain sight that end
up getting corroborated in my own open
source research. So I'll give you an
example. He says that uh a UFO possibly
came out of the sky during a high
altitude nuclear test in the Marshall
Islands in the early 60s. So these are
these famous you know Bikini ATL
Johnston ATL you know operation Dominic
tests and it's I think it was he called
it yeah during the Starfish Prime series
and I thought that you know that was
nuts like what are you talking like a
UFO came out of the plume? I know they
show up around nuclear sites but really
did the UFO come out of the plume? So I
end up interviewing this guy. He's a
presidential adviser to JFK, LBJ, Nixon,
and Ford. And he is 89 years old,
completely like sharp as attack, like
with it, and just has this elite kind of
macro kind of p, you know, exact picture
of the world in his head. I think he
worked closely with Kissinger and like
just really knew his sort of stuff when
it came to just prosaic conventional
political trends, you know, outside of
UFO stuff. And uh he had been tweeting
some interesting things about UFOs and
then he starts going into this story and
I'm like what? Like so basically he goes
I was in charge of the cost assessment
for one of these high altitude nuclear
tests. It's the it's called the bluegill
triple prime test part of the starfish
prime series in 1962 in October actually
during the Cuban missile crisis was
October 25th. And he goes we didn't have
any way to defend against Soviet ICBMs
at the time. So we
>> Exactly.
>> This is a gift plan. I can't control the
video. So I was trying to listen.
>> So this is this is the video of the test
and that white triangle was superimposed
on and there that's the UFO falling out
of the plume which is insane.
>> So explain it again.
>> Okay. So So basically
>> what's falling out of the plume?
>> A possible UFO object. Yeah. That thing.
>> Well, you know about the the images that
were were taken. What you know those
what what is the um the method that was
used where they uh observed reflective
things in the sky from what was it was
it radar or what do you know what I'm
talking about Jamie we've discussed this
before like they have uh photographs of
the sky they have some sort of an a an
image of the sky from the 1960s
and they showed that there were multiple
things that were metallic that were
>> I think you might you might be talking
about Beatatric Val this Stockholm
University astrophysicist she's amazing
so I'll get back to this in a second but
but she
>> basically has these uh astronomical
plates from the Palomar Observatory
which is Palomar Observatory was the
most prominent observatory in use at the
time and she has these transients that
she's she's gotten on these uh
astronomical plates the plates have
basically this uh emulsion that's
sensitive to light. So that you know uh
basically when light goes through you
know the the optical circuitry of the te
telescope and then it hits the plate you
see like stars and planets and all sorts
of things. you have a record of what's
in the sky, right? And she saw all
105,000
what she calls transients, which are
light reflecting mirror like objects
probably in geostationary orbit, which
is where I think we see a lot of UFOs.
And this is before Sputnik, before a man
made satellite was ever in space. This
is from 1949 to 1957. It gets crazier
because a PhD from um Vanderbilt
University named Steven Bruwell then
correlated those transients. They show
up more around nuclear detonations,
nuclear tests. It's wild,
>> right?
>> And you have people like Brian Keading
and you know Sabina Hosenfelder who are
like conventional physicists who are
talking about this now who are like yeah
we don't really have a perfect debunk on
this. Some people have thrown cosmic
rays at it. Some people have said, you
know, um uh yeah, solar rays, but
neither of those make any sense. And
then then there's a a former NASA um
astronomer named Ivo Busco who showed
that some of these transits have uh
they're called it's called a coma, which
is like a little kind of looks like a
little comet tail on the transient and
that gets created by the optical
circuitry of the telescope itself. So
the number one debunk on Beatatric was
that these transients were artifacts of
chemical staining and like issues. They
call them plate defects. And Ivobusco is
basically saying no the light is going
through the telescope. It's going
through the telescope. So it has to be
an artifact of something outside of the
telescope. So you you're left with one
conclusion which is UFOs. And then you
get into the fact that NASA has what are
called like uncorrelated targets all the
time. like there's noise in the sk there
are transients that are detected all the
time in the sky and we just sort of rule
it out all the time. So it's it's a it's
really crazy and it's I think it's very
hard to debunk and if she figures if she
proves this to be true this is a not
only capernac level discovery. It is
greater than that. It is it is a wild
wild discovery. And I have I don't know
I don't want to say I'm like you know
100% sure it's legit. It's, you know,
it's a little beyond my pay grade when
it comes to the science, but I have not
heard one good debunk on it. Not one.
>> Whoa.
>> Yeah, he would love talking to her.
>> It's also um there's some speculation
about some of these things falling from
the sky that they took place because of
these high altitude nuclear tests.
>> So that's what this bluegill triple
prime test. So this is an example. So
Tom Dong wrote about this Starfish Prime
test and secret machines and a lot of
this stuff is sort of you know codes
hidden in plain sight and he had amazing
sources. I mean one of his sources is
this general who's now missing uh
William Neil McCasslin who was in charge
of the entire special access program
oversight committee. And what he told
Tom is he goes uh you want to know about
the UFO issue? All you're going to find
are a bunch of blind men touching
different parts of an elephant. which is
I think the whole fallacy of modern UFO
disclosure. It's not like there's this
line in the sand. Oh, here's the truth.
We're going to give it to you. It's
like, oh, we have this program here and
this program here and we're testing this
stuff, but we don't really understand
what it is and it's kind of confusing.
And so, okay. So, so Dong writes about
the Starfish Prime, you know, test,
right, where this UFO comes out of the
plume. I interview this guy Harold
Malgrim who is well known in DC circles
as this like elite statesman outside of
UFOs like just kind of renowned good you
know very impressive reputation. He
discusses being in charge of cost
assessments for this specific starfish
prime test called the bluegill triple
prime test where you put uh this X-ray
device within the nose cone of a Thorx1
missile and it's specifically so that
when you know uh the nucle the nuke
detonates the X-ray blast then can take
out any surrounding ICBM. So it's it's
there was no way to guard against Soviet
ICBMs. This was the way to do it. He
said in my interview with him that in
fact uh all along, you know, this this
may have been this sort of ploy to take
out UFOs as well. His his mentor, by the
way, is Richard Bissell, who uh was the
number two in the entire CIA and founded
Area 51. And yeah, wild.
>> Whoa.
>> Yeah. And so he is in charge of the cost
assessment for this thing. He says that
there there's this he gets briefed on it
and he finds out that this object comes
out of the plume of this thing. And he
goes, "What is going on?" He goes, "I
want access to that this thing." And he
gets like I think kind of stonewalled a
little bit. He ends up at the Sandia
complex in New Mexico, one of these
national labs. And Lawrence Preston
Gist, who found went on to found DARPA
and is Jeff Bezos's maternal
grandfather,
hands him pieces of the UFO. And he and
he says and very sadly he passed away a
few weeks after I interviewed him. So
there's so much more of you know we
wanted to learn and know about you know
about this testimony. But he says he
held the pieces of the UFO in his hand.
And there's a Freedom of Information Act
request around the Starfish Prime series
saying I want all records from uh the
Starfish Prime series on UAVs, UFOs,
UAPs, every acronym related to UFOs. And
uh uh uh uh they the National Nuclear
Security Administration gets back and
they say uh you know the responsive
records that you asked for uh uh you
know we we referred them to the to the
right subject matter expert implying
that there are responsive records that
there are records from the National
Nuclear Security Administration which
guards all nuclear secrets around UFOs
at the time. There's also a guy named
David Noble White Crow who I think it
was a different Starfish Prime test
claimed to see a UFO like on his Navy
ship. Um there's a guy named Bob Jacobs
uh who who I've interviewed who's a
photo instrumentation specialist who
says that um there were rumors of an
object having fallen fallen, you know,
down from the sky. In fact, if you look
at the Navy deck logs, I just
interviewed the um Navy's uh former
chief oceanographer named a guy named
Tim Galedet. He is as well versed in
Navy deck logs as anybody and as you
know credentialed and qualified to read
them as anybody. And he says that these
look very anomalous and weird and like
they retrieved something. And I think
there was an outage on one of the ships
and there was an admiral named Admiral
Starbird who was named I guess he was
the senior officer present of float who
flew in a in a huff at 4:00 a.m. once
this thing was retrieved. He he flew at
4 a.m. back state side.
>> So this is a much better video of it. So
there so there are two vantage points
and both were EG&G planes and EG comes
up all over nuclear sort of stuff and um
kettle one and kettle 2 kettle 2 and
there's a actually an Australian
intelligence analyst named Jeff Krushank
who does an amazing analysis of all this
stuff and he calls this the kettle one
footage where you can see the UFO coming
out and the kettle 2 footage is this it
looks exactly like that footage but
there's a white triangle over the object
coming out and some People are like,
"Oh, it's an emulsion defect. It's what,
you know, whatever." He he went to he he
asked for a mandatory uh uh
declassification review of this thing.
And I think the guy in charge of it was
a guy named Byron Wristvet. And that guy
goes, "We lost the we lost the video. We
lost the video." So, it's either an
emulsion defect or you lost the video,
but like you have multiple stories. It's
just like Roswell where it's like you
have it's either crash dummies or it's a
weather balloon or it's just a you know
or it's project mogul high altitude
radar balloon. you have three different
stories or it's just aliens, you
know, or something, you know? So, it's
really crazy. And and and his Wikipedia
was completely changed and destroyed the
day the day after. It was it was totally
messed up. And this this hit piece was
written about him. And it was it it was
it was actually after he died. So, it
was really up because it was like
kicking this guy after he passed away.
And it I think it was such an amazing
courageous testimony that I I think will
stand the test of time.
>> Why do you think they attacked him? Just
to try to dismiss whatever he was saying
>> to throw mud on it. I think a lot of um
counter intel in the space is not
necessarily trying to shut down
conversation entirely, but it's throwing
mud on it. It's keeping it in this
liinal space of like I don't know it
could have happened but and so they call
they moved him from presidential adviser
to Japanese whailing lobbyist because he
worked with every prime minister in
Japan since Takana in the '7s and so
they and and down to Shinszo AB and
they're calling him like there was some
scandal or something and like that that
was what they were identifying him with
was this whailing lob. It's so crazy.
>> God so good at that.
They're so good at throwing mud on
things.
>> It's so crazy. And it was infuriating to
be on. It was really upset because
here was a guy who he just pattern
matched to this like really, you know,
brilliant guy. And he had all these
other amazing things to say about global
macro politics, JFK's assassination, all
these interesting things. And you're
just like kind of really, you know,
messing with his legacy or you're
kicking him when he's when he after he
passed away. Hey, it's up.
>> It is up, but that is what they
do.
>> You know, what is your take on Whitley
Striber?
>> I think I love Whitley as a person and I
think he his again, it's probably one of
those things where in upstate New York,
you know, as he describes in communion,
something probably happened. He probably
is one of these people who like you know
if if we are nodes of consciousness that
attract you know either very normal
things or weird things based on our
aperture and our sort of understanding
of reality his is wide open you know he
is he is extremely high in the openness
category and I think
>> that's where things get kind of sticky
with some of these sort of super
experiencers because I think they are
often very credulous but that goes
handinhand with having a lot of weird
experiences. And so I think Whitley's
gotten stuff wrong. I I do. Um and you
know, hopefully don't come down on me,
UFO community, for for saying that. I
think he's I think he has um said some
wacky things that I'm like
>> like what?
>> I don't Well, we talked about one of
them. I don't know if you remember that.
>> Which one was it?
>> It was like he said that there was a fly
that
>> Yeah, I remember that one.
>> Yeah, I brought that one up before
because I remember watching a video. I'm
like, "Okay, what are you doing?" Cuz
there was a fly. He's like, "Is that a
man in a suit?"
>> I remember that. I was like, "Wait, I
can't find that video." By the way, I've
tried very hard to find that video after
the fact.
>> I I think very strange stuff does go on.
You know what he says? He says, "I was
picked as a node for disclosure because
of the plot." It would be plausibly
deniable. It's what you're talking about
where there's there is he's this hor he
was this horror writer. He was a fiction
writer before he had his encounter
>> which is also part of the problem.
Incredible imagination
>> for sure. And then it's also part of his
ability to decide it's why communion was
a bestseller. So it's this weird like it
creates this like sort of cultlike
mythology. And then I look I know a lot
of experiencers where I'm like I I know
that I mean I really believe them that
they've had experiences with you know
grays specifically and it's a very
common trope that they'll walk by
communion in like a Barnes & Noble
bookstore and it'll freak them out and
that will be like their own hypnotic
regression. They'll be like, "Oh," like
they've never seen a gray before. And
that's the first time they've seen a
gray.
>> Yeah. The cover of the book is amazing.
>> It's amazing.
>> Who else had a book called Communion?
Remember we had them on and we were
like, "Do you know that your book is the
same title as a Whitley Striber book,
but it's completely different." Who
remember that, Jamie? Someone like
fairly recently.
We We have too many people on this
show. My hard drive's cooked.
>> Yeah. JD Fans.
>> JD Vans. That's right. Oh, he had a book
called while simultaneously calling
aliens possibly demons.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. He didn't really have a good
explanation for that. I pressed him on
that
>> and he kind of laughed very
uncomfortably cuz he didn't know what to
say.
>> I I think with all due respect to Mr.
Vance, who I really like as a person, I
think he's a very nice guy. Uh
I think he's signaling to the tribe
>> it it is it's a political palemic.
You're not looking at the data like he
says, I want to look into the UFO issue.
I just haven't had the time. I actually
understand that there's a lot going on
in the world, you know, but it's also
you've had some time. So maybe, you
know, go look into it. But
>> I kind of understand it, but kind of
don't.
>> I'm with you. I'm I be the first
>> plenty of time to go to church. Like
listen, bro, look into it.
>> Look into it. Exactly.
>> To quote Eddie Bravo, look into it. It's
um weird that you would say it's demons,
but I think that much like Tucker
Carlson has sort of alluded to this as
well. I think there's a certain aspect
to people that are believers, right?
Okay. Okay, when I say believers, I'm
talking about like Christian believers,
believers in the Bible, believer
believers in the the narrative that
comes along with Christianity, you know,
and that for them there's like if you
say I believe they're demons, like he's
on our side. There's, you know, there's
a there's you will you will attract
those people, they will re that will
resonate with certain people. And I do
think very unfortunately that there are
politicians that say things, we both
know this, that they don't necessarily
believe because they think that their
base wants to hear it.
>> Totally. Yeah. You're you're a
traditionalist. You're like, why, you
know, why do we have to deal with this
newagy You know, it's it's
just, you know, go back to the scripture
and they're demons.
>> Oh, I like it. I like how this guy's
talking.
>> Exa Exactly. And it's a it ends the
conversation because then it's like,
okay, but if there are demons, there are
angels, too. And what is a demon? And
what is an angel?
>> Also, where's the evidence that these
demons are doing anything demonic?
Well, here's where it gets interesting,
which is if you actually talk to a Jacqu
Valet, who I do think is probably as
deep as anybody as far as decades
studying the stuff, going to, you know,
100 plus crash sites, talking to
probably thousands of experiencers. And
he'll often say, you know, some of this
stuff does pattern match to demonic
behavior where it is sort of this, you
know, getting you to chase your tail.
It's, you know, they it's paralyzing
you. You know, in some cases it's sort
of, you know, angelic as well. In the
case of, you know, Mario and Michael,
it's they say, "Do not fear. Do not
fear." That's exactly what Daniel and
the Bible heard, you know, on the banks
of the Tigris. Do not fear is is is if
if the Bible if if the angels in the
Bible have like a, you know, a
catchphrase, it's do not fear. And so he
actually notes that there are some
similarities. So I think the there are
two failure modes, right? It's the end
the conversation like, you know, I'm
religious, I don't want to hear it sort
of thing. And then on the other side,
it's like you can't even look at the
Bible as data or like any past mythology
or lore as possibly overlapping with,
you know, sulfur and ammonia seem to be
the smell. Sulfur is a you know, so you
know what that being, you know, at
Virginia, you know, where uh that thing
crawling around that probably would have
been called a demon like a thousand
2,000 years ago. There's a reason.
>> That's when you look at it. It was like
a weird color body with red eyes and it
looked like it had like these tiny
little horns.
>> Totally. By the way, I just interviewed
the Brazilian the former Brazilian
defense minister and I brought up
Virginia and he goes, "I believe it
happened."
>> Whoa.
>> Yeah.
>> Whoa.
>> So, we're making progress.
>> Allegedly.
>> Allegedly.
>> Yeah. Well, then there's also the guy
who was physically in contact with it
that died.
>> The guy Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah, exactly.
Yeah. James Fox, you watch Moment of
Contact if you want to know what we're
we're talking about. Basically, you have
15 to 20 people alive today in this
small town in Virginia, 130,000, you
know, person town. And they knew nothing
about Roswell, UFOs, you know, they're
this town in Brazil. And in 1996, in
January,
James Fox, this amazing researcher,
documentarian, has triangulated the
flight path of this kind of tic-tac
object that came down. This uh uh this
ultralight pilot and geography teacher
named Carlos Doza was first on the
scene. He smells all, you know, these
sort of weird sulfur ammonia smell. He
actually holds the material apparently
and then it's it's taken from him by I
guess Issa is this you know nearby
military base. 15 minutes later he has
this sort of Men in Black experience
where somebody comes up to him at a gas
station seems to know everything about
him and his family and swears him to
secrecy. Meanwhile, the beings are
running around this town and the beings
end up in this hospital, Regionalis
Hospital, and this uh uh neurosurgeon
who I've met and interviewed who was the
chief neurosurgeon basically like
probably the most senior guy in
Virginia, but I think even senior, you
know, in Brazil as far as, you know,
neurosurgeons go. Uh he uh says that he
he treated this being and that or I
guess he he was face tof face with the
being for 4 minutes and he was checking
the work of this of his colleague who
had treated the being who had done this
like minor surgery on the being. And
apparently if you go to this hospital
and you say like hey uh you know is this
the being where the ET was treated?
They'll be like yeah yeah this is it.
And and Virginia itself has a big
saucer. Yeah.
>> You know that in homage to this entire
event. It's amazing.
>> Well, that's what's up.
>> I was just I hate I hate doing this, but
>> please do.
>> I just was looking up like, you know, uh
Perplexity I asked Virginia UFO incident
debunked or not. Never have done that
before and I've never heard this brought
up. Uh this is a known guy. His name is
Mudinho
from that area and he is in the exact
same position as the alien picture.
>> Yeah. Weird.
>> Yeah. But if you if you treated that guy
for a head wound, you would you would
know that he's
>> and does he smell like sulfur?
>> Man with disabilities who reportedly
seen crouching in heavy rain that they
did a 600page inquiry
dirty or unusual military
>> could he have flown in on a craft with
>> was he so stinky that when the the
officer brought him into the hospital,
the guy died of a bacterial infection
they couldn't treat.
>> That's the crazy thing. Then there's
this guy Marco Sherezy who's the soldier
that grabbed the ET being and
apprehended it and his whole family
knows about this and then he gets an
autopsy. I I interviewed the guy who did
the autopsy and he was like this was
like this gnarly form of this bacteria
that I've never seen in my life and the
guy who's president of ITB IPD which is
the company that does the autopsy
report. He even said, "Yeah, I think it
was from the nail of the ET
accidentally." You know, the the being
didn't mean any harm to this guy, but
there was a puncture wound and it
created this horrible, you know, viral
infection and he or bacterial infection
and he died of that. So crazy.
>> Yeah.
What
I know
it's so nuts. But I mean,
>> the Virginia one is really crazy.
>> It's really crazy. It's like there's so
many people that But then the problem is
like I would love to have talked to them
in 1996 individually without them
knowing that this was going to be a
global story and when they when they can
all sync up their memories.
>> I know. I know. And I'm praying that we
get a case like that, you know, at some
point where in it look, it's better than
Roswell 1947. You know, we're really
reading the tea leaves on that. So it's
1996. You have 15 to 20 people alive who
have either either saw the craft or the
being. That's pretty amazing.
>> Those young ladies there, there were
girls at the time and then when they get
interviewed later when they're grown
women and they're talking about the
incident, it's very strange. But I think
the strangest one is the cop who goes to
the scene of the crash and he starts
weeping and he starts like really I'm
like okay well either this cop is the
best actor that's never been in a movie
ever or he's having a real response to
some sort of crazy memory of an event
>> that was Carlos Dza the geography
teacher and he led them around to your
point for two hours or something before
finding that spot and I I think if you
were acting you'd be like yeah that this
is the spot you wouldn't like be like
you wouldn't be like what Wait, there
was a white shed there and it's not here
anymore and confused and apparently
there was a white shed there that was
removed or whatever and then finally
when he sees the spot you just see him
palpably break down. It's not this
unless Yeah. you know taking some acting
class on the side or something.
>> Not that you're a genius. You're
the next Daniel D Lewis like what are
you doing wasting your time in Brazil?
>> Exactly.
>> Telling UFO stories.
You go to Hollywood young man. Yeah.
It's uh it's but it's also the problem
is I want to believe it.
>> That's also the problem.
>> Me too.
>> I you know I don't want to believe it's
like the thing about like Roswell in
particular. Roswell had it it has become
an industry right
>> there's the the whole tourist trap
thing. There's the little gray you can
buy things knickknacks at stores.
>> You know it's like it's got this whole
connection to it.
>> It does. It does. It's its own cottage
industry. It becomes people's
identities. So they often want to keep
it going and then sometimes like and
this other thing happened to me too.
Wait, you know, come back sort of thing.
But
>> did you see the conversation that Travis
Walton had with Bob Lazar in a diner?
>> Yeah, that was on my buddy show Chris
Ramsey.
>> What a weird way to do a show of a a
diner scene and like you have these two
guys sitting across from each other. It
was very odd how they did it, but I
didn't think that was necessary. But but
the conversation's interesting. It's
super interesting to hear the
similarities between, you know, their
accounts and yeah, things that line up
and they don't those two guys are also
>> kind of again in that top tier of like
you spend time with them. I haven't
spent time with Travis Walton, but I
have with Bob and it's like you know
this it's like really hard to poke holes
in the story and they just to go back to
our original you know OG the top of this
conversation
like the pattern matching is just there
with him. He doesn't seem like a
bullshitter.
>> Travis doesn't seem like a bullshitter
at all. You know, I talked to him for
several hours and, you know, before and
after the show. And he he's also a guy
who's had the same story for 50 years.
>> It's the same story.
>> Yeah.
>> It's the It doesn't really vary. They
all took lie detector tests. One of the
guys that was a part of the crew
actually hated him and got in a fist
fight with him the day of the event and
he told the exact same story.
>> Yeah. And he came back. There was
missing time and I think he came back
with a full grown beard
>> five days later.
>> Five days later. Yeah. It's it's very
strange.
>> But his clothes weren't dirty. He's like
>> And he had this insane story.
>> And they all stuck to the same story.
Yeah.
>> Well, they thought those guys killed him
at first, so they were they were
questioning. Yeah.
>> Yeah. They like, "Where the is he?"
And they're telling the story like,
"What?" And then he comes back five days
later and tells the story and they're
like, "What is like what? Did you guys
all plan this?" Like, "What the is
going on?" But it doesn't seem like they
did.
>> So trippy. And he like touched the craft
and it was had this electromagnetic
charge or something. He like bounced off
of it.
>> Either he touched it or he got close to
it, right? He
>> got close to it. And that's common to
Yeah, maybe he got close. I don't know.
But that's common for UFO experiencers
where it's like you experience like
weird electromagnetic effects where it's
like almost like you're getting a a
sunburn where you get like you know UV
damage. It's actually in Close
Encounters of the uh Third Kind. It's
depicted where you know Richard Drifus
literally has a sunburn after his
encounter
>> on one side of his face where it was to
the left of his face because it was
outside.
>> Exactly. Exactly. And Mario Woods also
in in Ellsworth, you know, South Dakota,
he also had had burns and he didn't know
where they came from. They took skin
samples.
>> And what they discover?
>> I don't know. I think that that part's
classified, unfortunately.
God,
wouldn't you just love to have an actual
experience yourself? I mean, imagine
thinking about all the time you spent
studying this and you haven't had an
actual experience yourself. I've seen
UFOs, but I haven't I know I haven't had
a close encounter of the of the third
kind. And
>> what have you seen?
>> I saw in Laurel Canyon I saw a UFO and
then in Silver Lake I saw you weird
places to see you in LA.
>> What they look like?
>> One was I I told one of them on on your
I think I told both of them on your
show, but but um one was like a school
bus sort of thing, which is really
weird. It was like um you know kind of
you know rectangular and uh it was
hovering like right above the treetops.
It was not very high and it was sort of
silently moving over the treetops and I
was with a friend at the time and she
saw the UFO like descend over the
treetops like like like go into some you
know we were in a residential area. It
was in Laurel Canyon and so that was
very strange. I didn't see that. I
didn't see it sort of descend. I just
saw it go over and it but it looked like
a floating again school bus like a thing
and there's like no visible propulsion.
It was the strangest thing.
>> How fast was it moving?
>> That's hard for me to say. I don't know.
>> Not fast.
>> Not fast. Yeah.
>> Like it could have been a balloon.
>> There's no way
>> really.
>> No.
>> Why? Floating like a balloon.
>> Like a
>> Because it was like
>> helium balloon.
>> Yeah. I get I get maybe it could have
been a balloon.
>> A large balloon. Maybe. I don't know. It
was like It was right above the treetops
and you heard this sort of little hum
and I don't know. I don't I don't I
don't know. I don't think it was a
balloon, but maybe it was a balloon.
>> I mean, think about blimps. Like, if you
didn't know what a blimp was and you saw
that thing flying overhead, you're like,
"Oh my god, I've I've seen plenty of
blimps and they're usually like really
high in the sky and this thing like
>> But they don't have to be." Right.
That's how they come down.
>> Yeah. Right.
This thing was definitely not a plane,
but I can't I don't remember the exact,
you know, details as to what noise
>> like kind of like a a low bassy thing,
but no like not normal not normal
propulsion noise.
>> Like bassy
>> like it was like a
>> like a
>> Yeah, that sort of thing. Yeah.
>> Like the fan that's moving the balloon,
>> but not not at all like a you know a
chopper or a plane or anything. And
yeah, I don't know. As far as like it
just looked metallic. Like if it was a
blimp or something, it would have been
like perfectly like I don't know. It had
had some sophisticated signature
management to look like it was like, you
know, perfectly metallic and shiny.
>> But like myar balloons,
they look very metallic.
>> Yeah. But I think you could see that it
was floating. You could see that, you
know, possibly that it was moving with
the wind.
>> And this didn't look like it was moving
with the wind at all. It looked like it
was sort of moving against the wind.
>> I mean, not not necessarily moving
against, but moving agnostic to the wind
is what I'm trying to say.
>> If there was a way where you could sit
down and conjure up an experience
with something, would you do it?
>> Conjure up an exper What do you mean?
Like if you could in a meditative state
access
like whatever connection and and have
like a Betty and Barney Hill type
experience.
>> I I wouldn't try to artificially do that
necessarily. I mean I would I would love
to have an experience but maybe
organically like if it's sort of you
know me meant for me sort of thing but
that is there are whistleblowers who've
come out this guy like Jake Barber for
example that talks about essentially
programs forcing people systematically
to conjure up these sorts of experiences
>> right that's why I asked
>> okay yeah uh yeah no and I I think
there's so I think there's a long
tradition of communing
with these sorts of things that goes
back to like kind of meaba cobalistic
practices you know neoplatanists would
call it the like you know kind of
communing with deities
>> and I don't think it's a coincidence
that I think there are aspects of you
know Steven Greer say what you will
about the guy C5 there are aspects of
that that are maybe similar to some of
these sort of protocols
>> that involve sort of communing with
these things
>> and traditionally you're not supposed to
do this stuff unless you are like fully
like of pure intent. You're probably
older. Like you're not supposed to start
Cabala, for example, until you're 35.
Um, really? Yeah. I think you're
supposed to be married as well. You're
supposed to be like very rooted in
reality.
>> Um,
>> interesting.
>> Yeah. So, and then there's like
>> that's like a Jewish mysticism, right?
>> That's a Jew a Jewish mysticism, but
there are Christian versions of it. And
you know I I think there yeah there
there there versions of it kind of
across history. The neoplatonists had a
virgin a version of it as well. So you
know I think this is uh something that
yeah I think the Jews had it with you
know Ezekiel's wheel and the the kind of
meabah texts but I think there's there's
more.
>> Yeah. Well the weird stuff when you get
into the Bible itself is the stuff that
wasn't put in the Bible.
>> I know what you're going to say. The
Enoch stuff.
>> That's so weird.
>> The Enoch stuff is really weird.
>> Yeah.
>> And when they find it in these clay
tablets in Kuman along with
books in the Bible, like the book of
Isaiah was also in there. Like, okay,
what what was that?
>> And how and how much that sounds like
Greek mythology, like these gods sort of
mating with mankind.
>> Yeah. And apparently it's still in the
Ethiopian Bible. The Ethiopian Bible has
the all of the books of Enoch, all the
different tales of the Watchers and the
Book of the Watchers and all that stuff
where they came down and mate with the
daughters of men
>> and created the Nephilim that's in the
Ethiopian Bible.
>> That is so trippy.
>> It's so trippy.
>> It's so trippy. And then they create the
Nephilim. And then you get into the
Timothy Alberina stories which you know
I know he was on your podcast where
there might be giants in Afghanistan
that the Air Forcees encountered in the
early 2000s and you had Devon Lat on as
well.
>> You know was he a famous arm wrestler is
that right?
>> Who served the Canadian special forces
in Afghanistan and saw a man there was
like massive. He said he was like 8t
tall
>> and uh I think a a mutual friend of ours
Brigham Beer shout out ways to well
they're the best. uh he has an employee
who also I think was special forces in
Afghanistan
and he says that there were there were I
think you know large beings there like
giants there as well. So, it's like a
bunch of like anecdotal and that's just
us. That's just, you know,
>> so
>> yeah, it's super weird. And do
you know that these uh the the the
latest
um take on the the Dennisovvens or
Denisvens, however you want to say it.
Um you know, which is a very recent
discovery. I I think the first even
recognition that there was another type
of human called Denisven. I think that's
how they pronounce it. I always say
Dennis Oven. Um, they believe they might
be much larger than human beings now.
They used to think that they were squat
like Neanderthalss and thick brows and
but now they realize their heads were
much larger than ours and that these
could potentially been 8 foot tall
people.
>> I didn't realize that. That's crazy.
>> This is fairly recent. So when was the
dis put this into perspect uh perplexity
when was the discovery of denisovvens or
denisven
>> I want to say it's real recent like
maybe
2016 or something like that like real
recent
>> where they didn't even know that there
was this branch of the human species
>> I feel like we've discovered a large
percentage of homminids
>> 2010 there go okay so okay they found it
in Siberia in 2008. Um, it was
identified as a previously unknown group
of archaic humans in 2010. The key
fossil, small finger bone, has been
excavated from the Denisova cave in
Siberia in 2008, but DNA analysis
published in 2010 revealed that it
belonged to a population distinct from
both Neanderthalss and modern humans.
Um, I think they have more now than just
the fingerbone. And I think that is
where they're getting at. Um I think
they have skulls.
Uh varies w highest known. Oh this is
people who have the DNA.
>> So there some DNA estimations.
Melanesian populations especially people
with ancestry in Papa New Guinea and
nearby Pacific Islands roughly four to
six% of their genomes.
That's interesting.
Um, what uh let's uh find out how many
bones they have available
>> because I think there's I think there's
brow ridge bones and there's skull bones
that seem to indicate that it had a
larger larger skull than humans
>> and they think how much bone has been
recovered or found. Let's find out.
>> Very little. M
>> uh Denisven are known for a small number
of fragmentaryary fossils, not complete
skeletons.
Uh
do they have skull? They have a mandible
partial lower jaw from the Tibetan
plateau. It was identified as Denisven
through ancient protein analysis rather
than recoverable Denosan DNA.
No complete Denisovven skull or
skeleton. Um just Google I mean uh
excuse me search for me um Denisan skull
like see if there's images cuz I think
there's a brow
>> like
>> the problem is it's like you're you're
looking for stuff. Yeah.
>> So like what is that? Is that just a
recreation of what it looks like?
>> It seems like a recreation
>> but this is what they think it looked
like.
>> It's like a Eugene Levy situation. huge
eyebrows. Look at the the brow ridge.
>> Yeah.
>> So, how much is this real? And what is
this AI? Like, what is this?
>> Well, is perplexity not caught up to the
latest evidence? Like
>> in Peru, paraca skulls are 30%
>> higher volume, I think, often than
normal skulls.
>> Some of them are, right? Some of them
are. That's the weird with the
elongated heads. That gets real weird.
This has a fairly elongated head as
well, but it's uh not like upwardly.
It's It seems to like move towards the
back, but has a pretty large. So, is
that an actual
>> I don't know. I'm trying to figure out.
So if that's an actual Denisan skull, it
seems like Perplexity is relying on
older data or older papers.
>> Cuz I I I do think that this is part of
why they're saying that they think they
might have been much larger.
>> What's going on?
This is natural history. What is being
eaten?
>> This is a hyena bone
>> that they were eating hyena bones.
Indeed, that could just pulled this
picture off of this website. I don't
know if
>> Okay. Fossil evidence of a mysterious
southern denisven yet to be found.
>> A replica of a homo erectus cranium. So,
okay. That's from Indonesia.
>> I know, but I'm just saying that's this
picture showed up in
>> Right.
>> So, that's what that is. But so, what is
that image that of the prominent brow
ridge like that one? Yeah,
>> I know. I'm trying to track it down.
That's coming from a Nature article that
I couldn't get into. It was paywalled.
So, if they haven't found this much,
then I think based off of the pictures
I'm seeing, they probably built it off
of this tooth they found
>> and then expand it out to here because
there's a little picture of a tooth
right there. But,
>> right, I don't know. So, that seems like
a jawbone that they found.
So, if that if it turns again, we're
talking about something that's recently
discovered. They they only knew that
this thing existed 16 years ago, which
is really a part of the problem with
this whole term fossil record. You know,
we like to think of the fossil record as
being a library. It's not. It's like
it's really limited in terms of like how
many things that die leave fossils. It's
a tiny fraction.
>> Same with the archaeological record.
It's the same thing.
>> Well, at least the archaeological
record, we have physical stuff. Like we
can look at, you know, Sakai Wan. We can
look at the pyramids. We can we don't
really know what happened and who built
it, but at least there's like physical
stuff there that defies explanation.
>> But if you have a cataclysm,
>> right?
>> Right.
>> And we probably did during the ice age,
you know.
>> Yeah. More than likely. More than
likely. The idea that we didn't have a
cataclysm seems silly at this point. It
seems like there's there's so much
physical evidence.
>> And it's almost like the longer we go,
the more hominids we find, and the
longer we go, the older things get
archaeologically. And it's actually
>> predictable. Like it makes sense that
both of those would be the case. Like
obviously our
>> abilities to like map and have sensors
and like figure this stuff out is
increasing and lower in the sediment
layer of any sort of dig is going to be
like older stuff.
>> Yes.
>> So archaeology is 200 years old.
Literally the the the discoveries of the
you know Babylonian cities 200 years ago
cities. Yeah.
>> Have you seen I think he's an Italian
guy. There is a a new paper that's being
published about the dating of the
pyramids and he's uh relying on erosion
evidence.
>> Yeah. I think relative erosion method.
>> Yes.
>> Donini I think is
>> that's exactly him. And he pushes it way
back.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> He pushes it back as recently as I god I
want to say like 16,000
and then the highend is 35,000 plus.
>> Yeah. It's crazy.
which is like, wait, what? What are you
talking about? Like, this is a 35,000
year old building. Like, what does that
even mean? Like, who who
>> speaking of Did you see that they
retracted this?
>> Oh, Filip Yes, he contacted me about
this. He's very upset.
>> Yeah.
>> Uh they they retracted it with uh
without any explanation, without any
justification. My
I'd like to call it nuanced take is that
I think I don't think he's lying. I
don't think he's a fraud, but I think
that he needs to just open source his
method because basically you have this
synthetic aperture radar Doppler
tomography which is synthetic aperture
radar is a known technique for you know
radar imaging and it radar images at
like very fine resolution and then you
have this ability to measure micro
vibrations that transmit into the
satellite signal. The thing that is only
his, his and only his is this beyondi
method which is this software where he
is able to deduce these structures you
know underneath the earth based on that.
So do I think he's lying about the grand
sasso laboratory which is you know this
other sort of I think particle
accelerator national lab out there that
he was able to like perfectly measure
and
>> 1.2 kilometers into a mountain
>> into a mountain. I I I would really hope
not and I don't think so. And But then
at the same time, I think it's like,
dude, you gotta like you're you're
talking about like a Nobel Prize or
something here. Like just just let it
open like either you either have to get
really really rich and keep it closed
source or the preference that I would
have and I think that would be best for
humanity is just open source the thing.
And you know, I think it's his life's
work. So I think he's a little
possessive around it. But that would be
the one thing where I'm like, dude, just
let it let it out or let somebody else
replicate it.
>> Interesting. because um they've used
this method to identify structures that
are known to exist and um they Right.
>> Yeah. And I think the uh what is it the
sha the Osiris shaft I think.
>> Yes. Exactly.
>> So and it's and it got the right
dimensions and if it's correct in and if
he's telling the truth about what it was
able to deem from the particle
accelerator when it was looking at the
part particle accelerator it got the
exact dimensions of it. that it knew
where it was. And so it's like
>> we need to dig.
>> We need to do something. Well, there's
all those that's one thing that he
brought up on the podcast. those shafts
that exist around there
>> that have been filled up with debris and
sand and dirt over time that they need
to clean that out and get down in
there and find out like what is cuz we
know that there's all these subterranean
tunnels and passages that are all around
Egypt like for sure they know that that
labyrinth exists. Yes. That that
Herododus discovered and that he talked
about in great detail. They knew they
know from ground penetrating radar these
there's these great chambers in there.
>> Even Zahi Hawas will admit that there
are tunnels underneath the Sphinx,
right?
>> So like yeah, I think more likely than
not there is something underneath the
pyramids and then we just have to dig.
We got to get down there. And if you're
Egypt and you're the Ministry of
Culture, that's the most GDP boosting
thing you could think of.
>> God, could you imagine if both uh is it
what's the other guy's name? be the
Italian guy with the erosion guy.
>> Uh I think Donini.
>> Donini. If Donini and Beyond, first of
all, what a great
>> Italian duo. Like if if these two guys
from Italy have cracked two different
things, one of them with erosion science
and the other one with ground
penetrating Doppler tomography. If those
guys are correct, you you're going to
have like an a gigantic group of new
people that want to come and check out
Egypt. That would be so awesome. Yeah.
>> But you have to get past these
gatekeepers of the timeline. The
gatekeepers of the timeline really want
to insist that 2,500 BC is about as good
as it gets.
>> Yeah. And it's like it's all good. It's
the the land that modern Egypt is on.
Like that it's fine. Like you can sort
of like take pride in the fact even if
it's older and it's not necessarily like
>> it's still Egypt.
>> It's still Egypt. It's amazing.
>> What's really dumb about the critics of
these theories? They all want to
attribute it to a bunch of different
people. Like you and I are alien
cooks and we're not trying to. We're
saying like no, it's probably people had
a super advanced civilization in that
part of the world a long time ago. And
what you're getting is multiple
generations of people after the fact
trying to recreate some of these ancient
structures. and that these ancient
structures probably predated whatever
civilization existed at 2,500 BC.
>> Yeah. And you you have to throw
spaghetti at the wall. Like it's like
it's your duty to speculate because the
conventional narratives don't make any
sense
>> at all.
>> At all. And you have people grasping
this rather there's a French guy John
Pierre Houdan who is like you know civil
engineering chops and he's talking about
like an external ramp but then an
external ramp would you know the incline
would be too too high for these you know
megaton bricks you know blocks so then
you end up with an internal ramp as
well. So it's like we are gra that is
like the best explanation right
conventionally and so let's let's try to
figure it out and let's be a little
creative and we don't need to like you
know stay so narrow like all these
skeptics are like the they're they're
you know attack dogs for what the
problem is they don't want these Jimmy
Corsettes and Michael Buttons and all
all of these people that have enormous
following on online to have any point.
They don't want that. They want to
dismiss them outright, which is why they
always use the same poratives. They
always call them racists. And the white
supremacy is one that they they've
attached to Graham, which is hilarious
cuz he's married to an Indian woman.
It's the whole thing is so stupid, but
he's the most non-racist person you're
ever going to meet in your life. He's
just completely open-minded. And also
that doesn't take away all the factual
data, all the stuff that's like the
stuff that's really weird that's hard to
describe. When you're talking about a
structure that is perfectly aligned
almost to true north, south, east, and
west, and has 2,300,000
stones, and used to be covered in smooth
limestone, and somehow or another was
the greatest structure that human beings
have ever created. N is bare minimum
4,500
years old. That is a mind And
anybody who says that's not a mind
And when you're talking about some of
the stones like particularly in the
king's chamber that are hundreds of tons
or or a hundred tons or 80 tons or
whatever they are and from hundreds of
miles away through the mountains with no
roads, no heavy machinery and they're
placed way the up on the ceiling of
this place perfectly. Totally. There's
also the weird mind of the
sarcophagus in the king's chamber, which
aligns with the same dimensions where
you could fit the Ark of the Covenant in
it.
>> No way.
>> Yes. Really?
>> Oh, there's a lot of people that believe
this. There's a real problem with the
measuring of radioactivity, too. They
try to say there's there's a a higher
level of radioactivity inside the
sarcophagus than in the outer walls. But
the problem is when people talk about
radiation and stones, like stones are
they have a certain level of radiation
just inherently,
>> you know, like you can like
the sun has radiation like there's
>> geer counters can go off random. Yeah.
But the the people that are like the
real they're really out there. They
think that that might have been the
positioning for the Ark of the Covenant
and that it measures like if you look at
the Bible's description of the
dimensions of the Ark of the Covenant,
it fits conveniently inside the
sarcophagus in the king's chamber.
>> Wa, that's crazy.
>> It is crazy. What's also crazy that
Graham believes that the Ethiopian Bible
and the the these Ethiopian religious
people who have uh supposedly this group
of people that are supposed to watch
over the Ark of the Covenant and that
they are in possession of it and that
these people that watch over it, they
all develop cataracts and they can only
do it for a little while and then they
wind up dying. So they have like short
tenures as the watchers of this whatever
the this object is that they're
calling the Ark of the Covenant.
>> Stories of their faces getting mangled
if they walk inside. He was so afraid.
This was actually I think one of his
first articles for like a magazine
before he got into all this.
>> This is how it got him into it in the
first place.
>> Got into it in the first place. You
know, another crazy story is um I think
it's uh Sir James Bruce was looking for
the Ark of the Covenant and he found the
book of Enoch, but he was searching for
the Ark of the Covenant. But yeah, they
think it's an Axom Ethiopia and there
are Templar crosses I believe on a
church there as well. And so and Graham
talks about this and so that's his
connection because they you know there
obviously legends of the Templars being
these sort of knights that guarded you
know uh you know after after the
destruction of the temple, the Ark of
the Covenant. And so maybe they actually
did make it all the way down to
Ethiopia,
>> which is wild.
>> It's so wild. If that thing was actually
in the center of the sarcophagus in the
king's chamber in the pyramid,
whatever that thing is,
>> it's so it's so I mean the the one maybe
counterargument or something I'd be
curious about would be the Nazis were
obsessed with the arc of the like the
Indiana Jones plot is like legit.
Himmler would go on these weird quests
or whatever around this stuff.
>> And I guess Italy and Ethiopia had that
war around around that time I believe,
right? Or like why wouldn't the Nazis
just go in and try to take this object?
>> Maybe they weren't aware.
>> Maybe they weren't aware. Who knows?
>> This guy Olenorf says he went and saw it
in 1941
>> and that it's a replica.
He stated that he gained access in 1941
because he spoke classic, how do you say
that? Gue and appeared serious. However,
he asserted the box inside was empty and
described it as an empty middle to late
medieval replica rather than the true
biblical artifact. So, he's the only guy
that's gained access. And this was in
1941. He's a British officer during
World War II and later a professor of
Ethiopian studies at the University of
London. Interesting.
>> I want to know the details. Like how
does he know that it's an artifact
>> or it's a replica
>> or it's Yeah. Or sorry that's a replica
rather. Yeah.
>> There are I did look this up just I
think yesterday.
>> Oh, you did? Rabbit hole.
>> Captain rabbit hole over here.
>> I was I was I found this rabbit hole cuz
I was trying to find out where happened
to the staff of Moses. I just was
thinking about weird things that existed
in history. And also the Ark of the
Covenant. Last time it was actually
known where it was was 586 BC.
>> So like when Jesus was around, no one
knew where it was.
>> That's interesting.
>> The wall 586. So hundreds of years
before his
>> 600 years before Jesus.
>> Wow.
>> Wow. Yeah. I know. The walls of Jericho
were supposed to come down I think the
arc of the covenant.
>> Babylonian u destruction of Jerusalem.
They tore down the cathedral which also
I stumbled across something called the
Madaba map. Have you ever heard of that?
>> No.
>> Uh, it was found
it's a mosaic of like ancient Jerusalem
found around 6 CE.
And it shows I' I've never heard of this
before. So, I was actually trying to
show you like the best way to describe
it, but it's all in like ancient Greece.
It was a mosaic underneath the floor in
a different church that they found while
they were about to make a new church.
So, they were doing like reconstruction
and they found this map of ancient It's
pointing things out here. This isn't the
best way to describe it. I'm sorry, but
um they've mapped it all and found
things that that I think it was found in
like 1895,
right around turn of the century. So, it
shows like where Jerusalem was, where
all these things are in reference to
each other and
>> all these places that were in the Bible
and whatnot.
>> Wow. And I guess people didn't know
about them and that's when some of the
stuff is, you know, getting validated.
Jordan's Madaba map.
>> That's what it looks like. That's the
actual image.
>> Yeah, it's really I mean it's old
school, you know, I guess tiles and
little pieces of fragments of different
things that is artistic was covered up
probably multiple times.
>> So wild. Well, then there's the
weirdness of the Ark of the Covenant and
the dimensions match this object that's
on Mount Ararat, which is exactly where
supposedly it landed in the Bible.
>> What?
>> Yes. Really?
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's a bunch of
people that firmly believe that this
object on Mount Ararat is that the uh
Moses's
>> staff. This one is. So, this it ex it
turns out I don't know if this is real.
This is where I was the rabbit hole was
getting real weird here. It's in a a
palace in Istanbul, I believe, where
there's other uh relics. It's like the
palace of relics or something like that.
There's uh the sword of the prophet
David from 10 BC. Somehow they got like
David and Goliath.
>> What?
>> King David. Yeah. And there's a bunch of
things from Muhammad there. There's like
a piece of a tooth, a piece of a beard.
Um,
well, I don't and that's what I don't to
say it's not real. I don't know. It just
looks like a stick. But the the biblical
like uh descriptions of it are that it
turned into a serpent serpent at one
point. You know, this is what parted the
Red Sea. H go to the Mount Ararat stuff
because the Mount Ararat stuff is really
weird. There there's even like a whole
touristy center that you can go there
where they describe it as being the the
the landing spot of Noah's Ark. But
apparently
>> what's weird is the um analysis of the
ground underneath it and that there's
organic material that aligns with the
the dimensions of the boat.
>> No way.
>> Yeah, it's really weird. Well, just the
object itself, like whatever the
this is in eastern Turkey.
>> Yes, it's on Mount Ar.
>> Just the dimensions itself.
weird.
>> Like what is that thing that's up there?
And so when they anal analyze it, like
you see it, it has like what appears to
be chambers and then also what what
appears to be the remnants of some sort
of organic material, which would be wood
that was dis that was used in
construction of this thing.
>> That's silly. There was something recent
about it though. Um, see if you can find
like news. Go to news.
>> This is what I thought I saw. I saw this
and I don't uh I just seen this video
where someone's inside and they're
claiming this has got to be a claim cuz
I don't know that
how they got here and where this video
came from.
>> He's going
and like showing think when you get down
here they show like pieces of wood.
That's Noah's dick.
>> Yeah, he's showing pieces of wood
>> or what looks I mean it's uh
>> Noah arc scans.
>> God, how much wood is left from 2,000
years ago or more?
>> Piece on Instagram, I think, where it
was not the entire 45minute video.
>> There was some news of the analysis of
that that I saw online.
>> April 22nd. This my bet.
>> Researcher believes Noah's arc found in
Turkey after new underground scans.
Yeah. So, researchers working in Turkey
say fresh scan data, this is from April,
uncovered what appears to be tunnels
inside the long debated landform
bolstering their case the site may be a
man-made object they believe to be
Noah's Ark. I do believe this is a real
decayed buried remnants of Noah's Ark,
the famous ship. And we're doing our
best to convince the skeptics and show
the world this site. The tricky thing is
for carbon dating you do need organic
material.
>> Oh yeah. And not only that, it's like
the tricky thing is like the whole story
doesn't make sense. You
>> take two of each animal and then what
happens? Animals eat other animals. So
how does that work out?
>> You you've got to
>> you know in the Bible they're supposedly
waited they waited until the animals uh
gave birth to a bunch of different
before they ate them.
>> It's insane.
>> Okay. What what are you a kid?
It's this like I mean it literally
sounds like you know like a child wrote
a story.
>> It's very very goofy. But then you get
into the fact that there are like 400 or
so flood myths across disperate cultures
some of whom never had contact with one
another.
>> Yes, definitely. And then you also get
into the idea that it's not maybe the
whole world that flooded. It's this
immediate area. And that this idea of he
took two of each animal. Maybe he just
took enough animals so he could sustain
agriculture afterwards and these other
animals did not go extinct. And then
maybe the story over time becomes he got
giraffes walk there from Africa.
Like where where are you getting horses?
You know, how how are you getting
eagles? Like how you getting everybody
on this thing? It doesn't even make
sense.
>> And real discoveries are often motivated
by myth. like motivated by Homer and
Herododus stories about the pelpeneisian
war. You had this guy German businessman
Hinrich von Schlimman spent all his
money looking for Troy and he eventually
found it.
>> Yeah. Which is wild.
>> Wild. Another story would be you know um
Plato talking about this flood. He's
talking about it in the Atlantis
context. Obviously it's a it's a
dialogue. Um, and it's I think the Tmus
and Creta dialogue and this is told at a
mythos festival uh 600 BC and they say
9,000 years ago this great flood
happened and then you line it up and
that that's melt water pulse 1b which is
probably the flood that got us out of
the ice age. So to discount myth
entirely as like non-historical I think
is throwing the baby out with the
bathwater.
>> Right. The timeline aligns with the
great with the theory of the younger dus
impact theory.
>> Exactly. the great flood and the younger
Jus impact theory align with the
timeline that Plato how the could
Plato have known when he's saying 9,000
years like how how is it so perfectly
aligned
>> bad on it seems a little convenient
>> yeah I think if there was a Noah's arc
it was probably well first of all how
does he know it's coming how long does
it take to make this boat you know
that's where it gets really weird like
does this guy actually have a
premonition is he actually like attuned
to some sort of psychic energy or does
God or for lack of a better term
actually talk to this guy and say, "Hey
dude,
>> some is about to go down." And
didn't it take him
>> I want to say the biblical account is it
took him a hundred years to make it.
>> Oh, I don't even know. I know that is
back when they were like living for
hundreds and
>> hundreds of years 77 years old and was
182 when he had Noah. normal
>> normal stuff was us.
>> David Sinclair, help us. Let's get back
there.
>> Well, this is this is the real thought
is if David Sinclair is correct, and I
think he is, if they can figure out a
way to uh somehow another access
whatever part of the human genome allows
us to age or causes us to age and
reverse that or change that. How do we
not know that? If you got a civilization
that could build the pyramids, how do we
not know that these people were also
capable of extending lifespan?
>> 100%. Yeah. And if knowledge gets lost
and we're now figuring out Horvath
clocks, DNA methylation clocks,
biological age versus chronological age,
I'm sure you talked to Brighgam about
all sorts of like novel crazy things
he's looking into with stem cells, you
know, and the amazing things they do.
Like why was that not necessarily
discovered before and just erased from
the historical record?
>> Easily could have been if if there is a
cataclysmic disaster and we do have a
hyper advanced civilization that's
capable of engineering feats that we
still can't replicate today which I
think is the case because there's a lot
of people say we could build the
pyramids today. you. Okay.
you. No one has. Go do it. Go do it.
Shut your mouth. The biblical account,
Noah and his family were in the ark for
about a year, often calculated as
roughly 370 days. Wow, they were in that
boat for a year.
>> That's crazy,
>> bro. That sucks. You think those guys,
they're stuck in Iran have it bad? Uh,
Genesis dates their entry to the 17th
day of the second month of Noah's 600th
year and their exit on the 27th day of
the second month of his 601st year. It
rained for 40 days and 40 nights.
Um,
how long did it take him to build the
ark? Says 120 years. Does not give a pre
precise construction time. The commonly
repeated 120 years is a traditional
interpretation of Genesis 6:3 rather
than explicit statement that
construction itself lasted 120 years. M
>> m well it's all you know you're getting
into when you're getting into ages like
that what's really weird is it's not
just the Christian Bible or the Old
Testament or that has these long
extended lifespans that's where you get
really weird because both the ancient
Egyptians when you know the zeppedi and
then when you get into the ancient
Samrian kings list like they when you go
the further back these
were living thousands and thousands of
years raining for thousands of years and
then after the flood
>> you start seeing ages align with modern
human ages
>> which is really weird
>> really weird
>> it's like okay what and so the way
archaeologists dismiss it they say oh
that was just myth okay but but you're
along with this myth particular with the
Samrians you have actual historical
kings that had actual historical reigns
that are depicted in the same the same
texts. So like what's going on 100% and
there I I think natural selection is a
real theory. There are people who like
deny it and I think it is a locally
extremely useful legit theory but
there's a great philosopher of uh
science called Carl Pauper and he had
this whole thing of he called them
materialist promisory notes where you
have issues in evolution natural
selection you have punctuated equilibria
this sort of rapid speciation in the
fossil record things that are very hard
to explain and we just like to fill in
the gaps and we don't know you know
there was actually a really interesting
um German uh guy named I think it was
Richard Goldmid and he had this idea of
he was an evolutionary theorist and he
had this idea of hopeful monsters and so
you'd get these mating between
interspecies so you know a mule would be
a good example or like a tiger and a l
like a liger and every once once in a
while like it would like hit this
ecological niche and like you know
actually make sense for the local
ecology and then it would sort of
persist and I think he's largely been
debunked but I spoke with this DARPA
dude
who was like, I can say this because I
we didn't end up pursuing it, but you
know the movie The Shape of Water, the
GMO del Torto, he was like at one point
we were thinking about stuff like that,
like interspecies.
Yeah. Yeah. And I don't I don't know if
it was like humans and other species,
but it was like inspired by this guy
Richard Goldmitt. Well, you know, the
Russians were considering making a
hybrid between a human and a champ
chimpanzeee for war.
>> That's crazy. I know Putin's talked
about killer dolphins.
>> No, this was uh God, was it World War
II? It was World War II, right? So, it
was World War II. Um,
who was it? Was it Stalin?
>> That's crazy.
>> Uh, well,
>> do we don't know if we would know
officially. I just remember the guy was
doing it on his own for sure.
>> Would have been Stalin told him to do
it. I don't remember.
>> See, see if you can find it. So they
were So the idea was like, look, Russia
lost like 20 million men during World
War II. And I think the idea is like,
why wouldn't it be better if people
didn't die? Why don't we develop
warriors? And so I think they were
trying to make a human chimpanzee hybrid
specifically designed for wolves. Now,
like I don't know if it was official cuz
he got in
>> he got in trouble for uh seeking vol
like um not telling the female
volunteers what was going on.
>> Oh Jesus.
>> Could you imagine?
>> Stay put honey. I'm just going to stick
something up there and wonderful things
will happen.
>> Jesus Christ.
>> Notorious Soviet era attempt, but no
human ape hybrids were ever created. But
yes, it was a real attempt. Russian
Soviet biology Ilia evenov proposed
using artificial insemination to test
whether humans and great apes could
produce offspring in the mid 1920s.
Okay, so it was um after World War I. Uh
Soviet support, he traveled to French
Guinea and inseminated several female
chimpanzees with human sperm. None
became pregnant. He later sought to
reverse the experiment by inseminating
women with ape sperm. Historical
accounts indicate he considered doing so
without consent in Guinea, but colonial
authorities blocked the plan. Back in
Russia, he sought female volunteers, but
the available adult male ape died before
the procedure could occur. So, no such
insemination proced proceeded.
>> Sounds like a great person.
>> Yeah. What great guy, wonderful dude.
But it's like kind of crazy that that
was I mean imagine if it worked and then
they just created like a million of them
and just armed them.
>> Well, also where are we headed with
Crisper and the ability to, you know,
go,
>> right? Well, also what the is going
to stop them from turning around and
taking over Russia?
>> Like why would they listen to you,
>> right?
>> Like they have you're giving them guns.
They're way more violent. They're super
territorial. They're way stronger. And
also, they're gonna recognize that you
made them to go die. And they're going
to be really resentful of these
pink little fleshy water
balloons of of meat and tissue that are
so vulnerable compared to them.
>> It's like, yeah, it's like you created
me. It's like it's Planet of the Apes.
>> It's it's Planet of the Apes. It's it's
also the way people talk about AI. It's
like very analogous.
>> Very much so. Very much so. Yeah. It's
uh we are always meddling.
>> We're always meddling.
>> But which makes me think something more
advanced would probably meddle with us.
That's right.
>> Just do it a little bit more subtly.
>> And they would do it at the bound. Like
it makes sense that UFOs to me would
show up around nuclear sites because
those are the Archimedes lever of
destruction on those are the points of
most leverage, the hinge points of
civilizational collapse. It is not a
coincidence that Mario and Michael were
abducted at Ellsworth Air Force Base and
saw this thing hovering above a live
hydrogen bomb.
>> That feels like it makes sense.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, and it like if you were
governing a system, you would look at
those nodes,
>> right?
>> You look at the actually there's a a
great neuroscientist named Don Hoffman
and he says if you're like guarding if
you're a simulator and you're guarding
the simulation, you look at the exit
paths. So I think about two exit paths
in our sort of simulation. One would be
high energy physics. So particle
accelerators, high voltage
experimentation and nuclear like really
like stuff where you're really pushing
at the boundaries of spaceime. So I
think that's why these things show up at
national labs, nuclear sites, a lot of
like really hardcore kind of
experimentation and then consciousness.
I think that would be the other exit
path. And so that's why I think these
things show up when we're sort of
communing with this higher thing,
>> right? And it also makes sense why they
show up when you're sleeping,
>> right? Like if you're having these
encounters, like all these abduction
experiences,
the great many of them happen at night,
>> right?
>> Yeah. And it's an open question as to
why is it evolutionarily adaptive as for
us to sleep, right?
>> It doesn't really make sense.
>> It's terrible.
>> It's terrible. And we're we sleep deeper
than like most animals. And so we can be
walked up on by predators and
>> there's so many nocturnal predators.
>> Absolutely. stupid idea.
>> Why wouldn't that get selected out?
Maybe something important happens during
sleep. Like who knows?
>> Yeah.
>> But like it see it seems like
>> Yeah. We don't understand any of that
stuff. The dreaming sleeping and it's
probably adaptive in some way we don't
understand.
>> Yeah. And like what is happening when
we're sleeping? I told you about my
crazy dream. the one crazy dream that I
had that still to this day kind of it's
very foggy now because it's months and
months after the fact. But that the day
of that dream I was shook
>> that almost
>> I was really shook.
>> It almost feels like uh if I were to
analyze that dream it's like uh they
were giving meat to these crocodiles in
the water or something. So it was like
it was like our limbic sort of reptilian
cuz in every man you have your sort of
reptile self and then you have your like
more aspirational self or something and
maybe they were sort of like holding
that at bay and they were you said to me
you were like these beings these like
future human alien looking beings were
telling you like this is a brittle
experiment like this whole thing you've
got set up this could end tomorrow like
we're here sort of protecting you.
>> Yeah. There was a very flimsy barrier
between the crocodiles and whatever was
in the water. And uh I was like, "That's
it. That's the only thing that's
stopping. This is like a like like a
like a traffic cone and some
tape or something like that." Like some
plastic bars. It was like not I don't
remember specifically, but it was like I
remember being very uncomfortable with
how little protection there was to stop
those things from coming out of the
water.
>> So fascinating.
>> But also the weirdness of them like
their bodies. They were like very
slender and kind of tall, but like no
muscle at all. Like no strength at all
and larger heads and very oddlooking,
almost Asian looking.
>> Very weird. And they were playing with
me a little bit like spooking me. Haha.
>> And it was very strange, but it was so
vivid. That's the weird part.
>> That's what's so trippy to me where I'm
like maybe it was an experience. It's
hard to say. It's impossible to
declaratively say it wasn't right.
>> Well, it's hard to know what a dream is
in the first place.
>> Yeah.
>> Like what is going on when you have
vivid dreams in the first place?
>> Totally. Yeah. What? Yeah. What is that?
>> It seems like you're working out
problems. Like a lot of times people are
working out issues and they're why they
say sleep on it.
>> I think there's something to that old
wives, you know, the the old wisdom of
sleep on it. It's almost like you're
because it does feel like sometimes like
issues that you have come up in sleep,
but you're almost like metabolizing them
or you're like you're you're like
working them out by experiencing them,
but in like a padded walls sort of way
in the dream where like you don't want
to work that out in 3D reality. And so
it's sort of adaptive in that sense or
something
>> maybe. I don't know.
>> Who knows? Yeah.
>> But it's weird that I've had so many
dreams that have been, you know, even
crazy dreams like, "Wow, that was nuts."
But nothing like kept me from going back
to sleep.
>> Yeah, that's what's so trippy about it
is like you went and worked out right
after. Right.
>> I had I could not sleep. I laid in bed
for like an hour afterwards trying to go
back to sleep. I'm like I am not going
back to sleep. Like whatever the
that was was way too real. Like way more
real than any dream I'd had before.
>> If I was an alien or a future human, I
would definitely visit you.
Whatever it is, it it if I mean whether
or not it's my imagination just hit a
burst of like serotonin and dopamine and
neurochemicals and DMT or whatever it
was that created this very vivid thing.
It's either that my super hyperactive
imagination or an encounter. It's hard
to know what it was, but what it was was
very different than any other dream that
I've ever had before.
>> Yeah. Well, I that's I think that's a
beautiful like that's all you can say
about it.
>> Yeah. I mean, but that's being honest.
Yeah. And that's but it also is the
problem with someone having a legitimate
experience. Like how much do they
elaborate? How much do they expand? How
much do they try to justify their
experience rather than saying I don't
know what the that was?
>> Yeah, totally. I think I think in many
cases the honest thing is I I don't
know. I don't know what the beings were.
I don't know where they were from. And
it's so interesting that we snap to grid
all of these experiences into this sort
of alien motif. And it's why the
Pentagon now uses nonhuman intelligence,
which sounds kind of ridiculous because
it could be AI or an animal or
something. But
>> I wonder why they changed that.
>> I think they changed it because they
don't know definitively that it's
extraterrestrial.
And the office that I think in bad faith
likes to debunk this stuff, the all
domain anomalies resolution office that
just likes to pour core. It's the modern
blue book basically. They often say we
have no evidence of extraterrestrial
visit visitation because they they hinge
it on that conclusion. That is a
conclusion.
>> There's a lot of anomalous data. There's
stuff showing up at our nuclear sites
everywhere.
>> Donald Trump reportedly told inner
circle aliens are living in Earth's
oceans.
>> I've heard he said that too. That als he
alluded to that. Remember the Jersey
drone flap in November of 2024? He kind
of alluded to that. He goes, "We know
they're coming from a garage. It's a
weird place.
>> It's a garage. We have no idea what they
are, but they're in the ocean."
>> This is according to Jack Osborne who
said, I think to Andy Stumpf, and he
said that he has got a friend that talks
to Trump frequently.
>> So, tell him stuff.
>> I know Jack Source actually, and uh so
>> Yeah. Yeah. And I I don't think he's
lying.
>> Well, this is also what multiple people
have said that there's something in the
ocean, you know, and this is
>> Yeah. No, I I just had on the um Navy's
chief oceanographer who we just talked
about. He was head of Noah.
>> Yeah, I saw that.
>> Yeah. And um you know, he talks about
tons and tons of sightings. Tons of Navy
sightings. I mean, the the three
sightings that were popularized, the
videos that were popularized in the 2017
New York Times article, which is whether
you like that article or not, they got
some things wrong, very responsible for
a lot of the modern kind of disclosure
movement.
>> Very responsible for people all of a
sudden taking it seriously.
>> 100%. Yeah, it slapped that credibility
onto the whole issue. Those were Navy
cases. Those were all Navy cases. The
Nimtts sighting, Go Fast, and Gimble
were all Navy. And so, yeah, there's a
long history. I mean the bluegill triple
prime thing I mentioned with Harold
Malgrren was Navy as well. You know you
have Tim Bchett saying there are five or
six hot spots you know on on ocean
floors and then you have Bob Lazar
saying you know actually that was taken
out of context. You know people are
saying the craft he worked on the sports
model was found in an archaeological
dig. It was actually found on the
seafloor.
Yeah. And I think the office of naval
intelligence knows a lot about this
whole time. In fact Jay Stratton
>> where where was the information that it
was found on the seafloor? That's what
he says. And I think he might have said
bury his like
>> Well, he said one of them came from an
archaeological dig.
>> Yes.
>> But it wasn't the sport model.
>> I think I thought it was Oh, I don't
know if it was Maybe it wasn't one of
them. It wasn't the sport model.
>> He said one of them I was told actually
came from an archaeological dig and it's
really old.
>> It might have not been the sport model,
but that's the other weird thing.
>> But he said it was the seafloor. The
labyrinth
>> that Herodus described. There's a
40meter long tic tacshaped metallic
object that's inside of some sort of an
atrium that's underground. Just a 40 m
long piece of metal that's thousands and
thousands of years old. Like what are
you talking about?
>> It's so crazy.
>> How the do they have 40 m of metal
back then?
>> Like what is that?
>> It's so crazy.
>> 40 m is nuts.
>> It's so nuts.
>> 40 m is almost a half a football field.
>> That's huge. That's massive
piece of metal.
>> It's vertical.
>> I do not know.
>> Okay.
>> I do not know, but it's uh it's shaped
like, you know, like a craft.
>> The other crazy thing
>> Imagine there's a UFO under
Egypt. You just got to dig and go get
it.
>> That'd be so wild. Well, the crazy thing
um I know you've had you're referring to
a lot of Ben Van Kirkwick's amazing
work. He's been on your show a bunch. He
I think went to Danderea and the
hieroglyphics there like translate to
Stargate.
>> Yes. That's crazy.
>> Like what?
>> And then I think Stargate, you know,
takes place at the py the pyramid is
literally a portal. And then if you
combine that with the Christopher Dunn
stuff or the Beyond stuff where either
it's a, you know, a generator of
electricity or there's this other guy,
amazing guy Jeffrey Drum who talks about
it as a chemical manufacturing plant.
you know, like something was being done
there and maybe it had to do with some
transcendent, you know, and then it
obviously, you know, somewhat maps to
Orion's belt as well. So, I don't know.
Maybe. And then Orion's belt is the
pathway that souls took in ancient
times.
>> Oh,
>> yeah.
>> It's I never get tired of the subject.
>> It's so fun.
>> As long as there's new information that
comes out, they got me hooked forever.
It's like a stupid soap opera that I'll
watch till I die.
>> Yeah. No, I feel the same. It's it's so
like and it's always like the the cast
of there's so much drama too and
disclosure and stuff and it's just I
don't know it's I I I I I do hope I do
think in our lifetime we're going to
make a lot of progress on it.
>> This is Herodotus's I hope so.
Herodotus's description had 12 roofs
roofed course uh courts god I can't talk
arranged in two rows six facing north
and six south all enclosed by one outer
law out outer wall. It contained 3,000
chambers, 1,500 above ground and 1500
underground. Herata say he toured the
upper chambers himself, but Egyptian
custodians refused to show the lower
ones. They reportedly held the tombs of
the original royal builders and of
sacred crocodiles.
>> What?
>> What?
>> That's so nuts,
>> bro. That brings back to my stupid
dream.
>> I I was literally thinking that. Yeah.
He emphasizes its bewildering internal
circulation. Visitors passed from courts
to chambers, chambers to colonades, and
then to further rooms and courts. Its
roof was stone. Its walls bore carved
figures. And each court was ringed by
precisely fitted white stone columns.
>> And Ply the Elder also had an account of
this thing. like this was
>> well it's I mean also like with ground
penetrating radar they know it exists
these chambers actually do exist and
that's the weird thing about whatever
that metallic object is they they can
and they don't know what metal it is
either it's not it doesn't resonate like
aluminum or iron they don't know what
the it is
>> that's so wild
>> labyrinth surpasses even the pyramids
>> wow
>> he says I saw this myself I found it
greater than words can say
>> that is so wild
that is so Imagine saying something's
greater than the pyramids and it's under
the ground.
>> And you are the preeminent Greek
historian. Like you're writing about all
the craziest
>> and you're writing about it from a
firsthand perspective. It's not like he
heard a story.
>> Yeah. You're you're you've seen it.
>> Yeah. This isn't like Homer
>> of writing. I was watching old older Lex
Freriedman podcast and this linguist
guy. I haven't heard this discussed yet,
especially with all the times we talked
about. Go back. Have you ever seen this
thing?
>> What is that?
Um the way he describes it is it's like
proving that they had language then
because this is not CUNI form
>> and the way he I mean they get it takes
30 minutes probably before they get to
this and because he's breaking down what
language is and how we got to it and he
gives a very crazy explanation of
language I had not heard which it's it's
like um
writing down sound
>> in the same way that like a like a
record is recording sound. You're
writing down sounds
>> and it's like it took a while for
everybody to agree upon what all those
sounds were so that you're all reading
the same thing. And so Irving Finkele,
scholar of ancient languages and
longtime curator at the British Museum,
renowned for his expertise in
Mesopotamian history and uniform
writing, believes this artifact from
Gobeclet is evidence of the earliest
form of writing dating back to around
11,600
years ago. So he's saying like the way
that the other stuff is reliefs that
this was like a a stamped piece of clay
that would have been, you know, some
record of some sort saying something was
done and this is like a verification of
that. And this could have been some
guy's last name. There's further
breakdowns I've seen like maybe this
snake is like the S sound and this could
be some guy's name. Who knows what it
really could mean, but this is going to,
you know, 12,000 years ago when they
thought we only were doing this for
3,000 or whatever.
>> Trippy.
>> Yeah, it's very weird. It's all very
weird. The they're just a history that
we know of with the human race. I mean,
just when you get to these old
structures that we know people made,
like when did they make them and why?
Like why what what is Goelette? What the
is that? Like
>> do you think we see a shift in our
understanding of humanity and our place
in the cosmos in our lifetime?
>> Yeah. One funeral at a time.
>> Yes. That's how science progresses.
>> Uhhuh.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. I I think that's pretty accurate.
>> One gatekeeper at a time.
>> Yeah. These old they need
to get out of the way. I mean, I just
think there's way too many of these
people that have a vested interest in
protecting a narrative that they've been
they've been teaching, they've been
writing books about. They've been
they've been saying that they are the
experts when you literally can't be.
There's just not enough data. What every
period in history like things get wholly
overturned. So, if you can't point to
one thing that's kind of heretical today
that you agree with, then you're
definitely on the wrong side of history.
>> Yeah. We always say we're at the end of
history scientifically, historically,
and then it it always, you know,
progresses and usually there's a that's
when people are most saying we're at the
end of history, you see a paradigm shift
and everything just completely collapses
and change. This is like the structure
of scientific revolutions is written by
a guy named Thomas who was actually
he was friends with John Mack and he
encouraged him to you know investigate
the alien abduction stuff at at Harvard
and he was he would say that there's a
law of declining marginal returns in any
scientific paradigm where you're just
rounding out the the final margins on a
theory and you're so sure of it you know
like electromagnetism in the late 19th
century and then boom you get total
collapse because you know Max Plon
figures out quanta you get the quantum
revolution. And who's to say, who are
you to say so smuggly that that's not
going to happen now? Like, of course it
will.
>> Of course it will.
>> It's just what always has happened.
>> Yes. And much like the UFO thing with
when it comes to t discussions about
ancient history and the true history of
the human race and what we really don't
know the people that are the most smug
and are the most sure of themselves are
most certainly the most wrong.
>> Yeah. Ex 100%.
>> Yeah. Because I think the whole thing is
weird. The UFO thing is weird and the
ancient history thing is weird. Yeah,
>> there's there's too many unanswered
questions.
>> Yeah.
>> And the the answers that they have
>> are really shitty. There's too many
really shitty answers.
>> This is kind of a weird analogy, but in
like stockpicking, which is, you know,
it's easy to get feedback on stock
picking, like whether you're right or
you're wrong, confidence can rise
exponentially and accuracy rises very
linearly and often plateaus. And so
that's of I think it's the case in like
you know in learning anything where like
you get more and more and more
confident. You're so sure of yourself
and but your accuracy is only going like
mildly up
>> and it goes back to what we were talking
about with like remote viewing and
staying in flow state.
>> Yes.
>> It's like the you got to get out of your
own way with everything.
>> Totally. and and and sometime you know a
great example is Maronei who is
responsible for inventing the radio by
most account him and Tesla right he
tried to send a signal across the
Atlantic and he thought that
electromagnetic waves curved and so he
was like you know I'm going to send the
signal it's going to work he was
entirely wrong about electromagnetic
waves curving it just bounced off the
ionosphere and then it landed across the
Atlantic and the signal was received and
so he was right because he was wrong.
>> And how many, you know, cases are like
that where, you know, did Graham Hancock
find the ark of the covenant? No, he
headed he headed in this general
westerly direction of knowing that we
have kind of amnesia as a civilization
and he found something extremely
special. You know, helped popularize the
GBC tappy narrative and this whole
younger dus period, you know, impact
theory hypothesis. So, you have, you
know, the same thing with James Bruce
with the arc of the covenant. You can
you can shoot for the stars and land on
the moon, you know, and that's okay. But
if you're just like this nitpicker like
annoying, smug, you know, academic who's
like arguing for the priestly citadel to
be upheld, like what what is your
contribution to humanity,
>> right?
>> What are you doing?
>> Yeah. And there's a lot of those.
>> There's so many. Yeah. But I think even
some of those people, and I'm not I'm
not saying that all of the attributes I
just mentioned apply to Neil Degrasse
Tyson, but but that some of some of
those people are now updating on UFOs.
And it's wild because like you have a
documentary, you know, the age of
disclosure where all these high ranking
intel people are saying UFOs are real
repeatedly in front of a chalkboard
saying they are real. Take my word for
it. And it's bludgeoning you basically
to a point where you're like, "Okay,
they're probably not like lying to me,
you know, and so and then you end up
with Neil deGrasse Tyson being like,
look, okay, it's there's an overwhelming
amount of accounts now. Now I'm, you
know, I do think there's probably
something here and we should look into
it." And it's like, dude, you weren't
doing science before. But is all it took
a documentary? That doesn't make any
sense.
>> No, it's criticism.
>> Yeah.
>> He's responding to overwhelming
criticism of his intellectual capacity
for reason.
>> That's right. Yeah. Because I think like
when he was on the podcast with me, I
got very upset with him when he was
like, "Why would they be interested in
us?" And I I told him, I go, "That one
drives me crazy." And I tried to explain
why it drives me crazy. He kept
interjecting and I'm like, "Okay."
Yeah, just just stop. Just stop with
that idea that we're not interesting.
We're territorial apes with nuclear
weapons who send FaceTime videos
to people on the other side of the
planet.
>> That's real weird.
>> We're We're apes with nukes. Yeah, we're
real weird.
>> We're real weird.
>> Yeah. And if I was something that was an
advanced civilization from somewhere
else, hopefully that uh a civilization
that has gotten past the concept of war
and stealing resources and all that and
and does have some sort of um a hive
mind, some sort of ability to
communicate telepathically. I would be
absolutely fascinated by this thing that
seems to be in this transitionary sort
of an adolescent stage of evolution and
development. It's like not quite a
primal animal anymore, but also not
evolved past primal animal behavior.
>> 100%. And I'll uh the giants the Chinese
science fiction novel, the three body
problem, you might not show yourself
overtly in the dark forest teaming with
life, it's actually dangerous to show
yourself. So, you subtly show up. You
show up at these, you know, nodes, hinge
points of, you know, uh, possible
cataclysm at nuclear. or you show up to
a specific person who might be a node of
disclosure, but you'd let it sort of
seep in. You'd condition the population.
You wouldn't show up all at once. And we
are like objectively being conditioned
to accept this. If the president
is saying they live in the ocean and Tim
Bashett is saying there's five hot spots
in the oceans as well. And then we see
it in the New York Times in 2017. Well,
this is how disclosure takes place.
>> Nice and slow. Nice and slow to the
point where it just becomes accepted.
>> Totally. Yeah. And it there's no like
clear onlogical shock moment.
>> It's not
the Devil's Tower UFO lands.
It's not that.
>> No.
>> No. It's nice and slow, right?
>> It's what's happening now. It's
happening. And that's why because there
are people that get really frustrated
and I understand it because there's so
much sclerotic bureaucracy on the hill
and you know these whistleblowers need
way more protections. I think we need
targeted immunity for certain people who
can say a lot more who are good faith
actors coming out. There probably a lot
of people did really bad that we
don't want immunity for, you know,
right?
>> But like
>> ultimately, you know, I have these
conversations and it's like it's so
frustrating. It's taking so long, but it
is moving. Like if you look at 10 years
ago visav today, 2016 before that 2017
article to today, it's wild.
>> Totally different landscape.
>> Totally different landscape.
>> Yeah. Yeah. If you talked about it back
then, you were a buffoon and now you're
on the right side of history.
>> There you go. So, you Joe are the
premier scientist because you were into
all this stuff way back then.
>> That guy was into it first.
>> Art legend,
>> the OG inspiration.
>> Jesse, you're the man. I
appreciate you very much. It's always
great to talk to you. Your show is
amazing. American Alchemy. It's
available on YouTube and it's
incredible. It's the best.
>> Love you, J. Thank you.
>> I love you, too. Thank you for being
here. All right, bye everybody.