The suppression of knowledge, the
suppression of science, the active
interference in scientific discovery,
what you are allowed to think and
believe is controlled for a real agenda.
>> Matthew [music] Brown, it's an honor to
have you. You have a core story where
you bumped into a lot of real
information around UFO tracking and
reverse engineering programs that were
ongoing and multigenerational. Can you
say what your position was at the
Pentagon?
>> I was a policy adviser. I was working
the counter WMD mission. Once I was read
in UAP just pop up in this case, the
immaculate constellation. You're
building an operational picture of the
world and having all domain awareness.
Do you think they would know vital
secrets about UFOs?
>> We're running up against their own
interests in not disclosing this because
it will challenge their economic,
social, and political power. bait for
shootdowns is in fact cover for using
psionics as breeding stock for
generations down the line where you have
some sort of super psychic child. Whoa.
Triangles in particular seem to be
highly advanced. They appeared above
Russian naval vessels
relatively close like it wasn't way up
in the sky. It was a football field
above them. The Russians had fornowledge
that this triangle would appear there
and that they were essentially there to
meet with it. [music] Seems like there
was some reason for that meeting. So,
you think the meeting was intentional on
both sides?
>> Your report mentions a formation of 12
metallic orbs skimming the ocean surface
at high speed before dispersing in
multiple directions. That's pretty wild.
Y
>> the White House possesses a unique AI
capable of accurately predicting a range
of future events. What does that mean?
>> Our mind is no longer sovereign. It can
be interfaced through remote means. Even
our dreams are now subject to
technological manipulation. [music] This
isn't even classified knowledge.
Technical applications from MIT itself
relating to dream implantation,
including at a distance.
>> Do you think ideas can be implanted in
somebody's waking life?
>> Yes.
>> That's freaky. It is.
>> In your high confidence,
>> I'm certain.
>> That's insane.
>> Sequence 5.
[music]
Is this possible?
Nothing too unusual about
[music] their existence cannot longer be
denied.
>> Matthew Brown, it's an honor to have
you. Uh, I'm really excited for this and
it's been a long time coming for me
because I speak to a lot of people who
have uh, experiences obviously on the
inside with UFOs. Either they've gone
through files or maybe they saw a thing
that they weren't supposed to. You are
very unique in my mind because obviously
that happened, you know, as kind of you
have a core story where you bumped into
a lot of real information around UFOs,
but you also seem to have extrapolated
almost a model of how the nature of
reality works or metaphysics works. And
I don't think you make any bold claims,
you know, in so far as saying that you
know exactly how it works, but it seems
like you've always been kind of a seeker
along those lines, too. So, I'm very
excited to speak with you both about
your core experience and about, you
know, some of the conclusions that
you've derived from that information
you've gleaned.
>> Yeah, thank you, Jesse. Uh, the honor is
mine as well. Uh, this is also a long
time coming. Uh, it's it feels right to
be out here and, uh, starting to open up
more and share about not just those
experiences, whistleblowing, but kind
of, uh, more of like, well, what what is
life like after? What does it all mean?
And how do we adjust our our life's
interactions with this with this
information?
>> Yeah. Growing up, did you always know
that you wanted to go into government?
>> No. [laughter]
No. Um, you know, I I was
pretty much an outcast in most of
school. Uh, not really till high school
did I kind of start to come out of my
shell and graduated high school, not
very good prospects. and uh went to
community college actually as a film
student initially. Uh so no, government
was never on my mind. Uh the closest I
got was um on a few occasions getting
close to like signing up for the
military. Uh but primarily because um
even at that time the the sort of wars
in the Middle East didn't seem uh to me
at least to be uh a just war. uh and
coming from a very patriotic family, um
the just war kind of uh thinking really
was imbued in me from a young age. And
then also, you know, kind of uh looking
at like, well, what did I want to do in
my life? Um not the most athletic
person, not the smartest. Uh maybe maybe
I can find somewhere to to fit in in the
arts, but um life had different plans.
Uh about 2 years into that experience, I
was persuaded by uh a history professor
to to seek out a career in intelligence.
From there, uh yeah, followed that path
for
>> That's interesting. Were they sort of
recruiting for the intel world or
>> No, I mean this is again this is this is
not an Ivy League place. This is just a
local community college.
>> Interesting.
>> But you know, you have all sorts of
characters at these places though that
can teach. Um, you know, we had a math
teacher who worked on the the space
shuttle, specifically the the thermal
tiling system for that. Did the
calculations for that.
>> Wow.
>> Had uh someone who
uh was,
you know, kind of an ex spook. Uh wasn't
very clear on that. And then this lady
who uh had experience on on Wall Street
and seemed to have some some uh exposure
to the intelligence world herself. So,
you know, it's
>> strange who you'll meet in in the most
unlikely places.
>> Yeah.
>> And if you're willing to learn, you
know, people will will open up.
>> And so, were you already in DC or did
you move to DC for the government?
>> Yeah, I I moved uh I moved to DC for uh
for grad school and and to get a job. Um
pretty much did both at the same time.
Um so I transferred out of community
college to a university. Um, it's funny.
I actually finished that university
experience with a study abroad in Russia
and moved from Russia to DC. Um,
>> kind of strange u looking back on it.
Um, and then you know from there you
know I made my first sort of formal bids
to join the IC as it were and you know
kind of got picked up and entered into
that. Were you into UFOs throughout any
of this, either growing up or while in
community college or graduate school or
as an entry level kind of Pentagon
employee? Uh,
>> I mean, no more than just like a I think
maybe most people in sort of like the
counterculture are like, you know, it's
it's out there. You everyone knows the
show Ancient Aliens, you know, kind of
growing up with that. But it was it was
never like a specific like I need to
learn everything about this topic and
I'm obsessed with it. It was just like,
"Oh, that's interesting." And on on to
the next uh bit of history. [laughter]
>> Yeah.
>> Can you say what your position was at
the Pentagon at the time?
>> I I mean, uh I like to
uh not kind of put the spotlight on
those offices, but I was a policy
adviser. Uh I was a contractor at the
time. Um I was working the counter WMD
mission for the office of the Secretary
of Defense for uh the under secretary of
defense for policy. and um you know
down in the orb chart is is where I was
but we'll just leave it there um for
yeah I still respect the mission don't
want to bring any heat their way for
sure. Were there any moments in that
role where you had a wakeup call and you
were like the world is way more on the
brink on multiple occasions than people
on the civil side realize.
So
probably just through the course of like
I guess higher education, you know, you
in international affairs, you kind of
are naturally led into like the real
state of things behind or beyond the
headlines and seeing, you know, just uh
how close we are to to violence and uh
lawlessness kind of spilling over and
and destroying what we've built. Um, so
you know that that definitely got to the
next level. Um, being on the inside and
learning more details, more uh entirely
novel areas of competition. Um, but I
guess for most of my adult life, it's
kind of always felt like, you know, the
the drums of war are always kind of
banging. what happened uh in 2018 to
turn you from a garden variety, you
know, person who was, you know,
peripherilally interested in UFOs to
somebody who really believed that the
government had kind of this
comprehensive entanglement with UFOs,
specifically this, you know, tracking
and reverse engineering programs that
were kind of ongoing and
multigenerational.
>> Yeah. So, I mean that was built over up
over time, but I mean uh pretty much
once I was read in uh just to my
accesses for the the counter WMD mission
like UAP just pop up. It was it was just
there as part of um the threat
environment. Um it was unknowns but it
was you know it wasn't like there was no
awareness of it. it was just something
that wasn't talked about because
probably you know people that are read
in don't you're not allowed to talk
about it and if you're not you know not
to ask and then um that awareness you
know kind of reached the next level
again when uh people know at this point
I was exposed to um legacy program
material in this case the Immaculate
Constellation program um and that kind
of discovery of you know kind of
confirming suspicions like okay this is
all somewhat real the government has to
be involved in tracking this and then
here's like official documentation of of
one aspect of how uh we are managing the
UAP problem. Uh kind of brought me to
that next level of commitment to finding
out what's going on
>> and set the scene for us. So like where
are you? You're like at a Pentagon
office and you're you're searching you
know through documents or what what
exactly are you doing? Uh so less
glamorous than that um basically was
volunttoled to clean up the file system.
Um and you know I was I was very much a
new employee at the time. So I was
taking any job I could to just learn
more and be useful. And so I yeah I was
doing that on our on our uh classified
computers uh and don't yeah don't need
to get into that but um found it in
there. It was, you know, labeled nothing
that would draw attention to it being a
UAP briefing or anything like that. And
just as part of that process, you know,
open a file, see where it is, see what
it is and where it should go. Open that
file, see what it is, and like, whoa,
what am what am I looking at here? Um,
after reading through it once, it was
pretty clear to me that this was, you
know, a most likely something that they
would call spillage, like it was, uh,
SAP material or or something like that.
That
>> SAP is special access program.
>> Yes. And, uh, it was, you know,
improperly filed. And so, this is based
on that training that I had. Um, you
know, this is an incident that you need
to report. wasn't quite sure what to do
with it with it at the time but a few
weeks later conveniently you know we got
kind of archival training as an office
and you know learned what the pathway is
specifically for dealing with sap
spillage and so then uh having that kind
of information started to report it to
leadership and
>> what is the document say
>> uh I mean it's it was powerpoint
briefing is what you would call a
capabilities brief uh for senior
leadership so it's describing at a high
level you know what this uh operational
SAP is um very brief history of it and
>> and what is it?
>> Uh so immaculate constellation uh it's a
or it was described to me at least in my
limited exposure as a operational SAP
governing the intelligence surveillance
and reconnaissance of UAP um around the
world using tasked and unts.
So that distinction being you know uh
intelligence assets that are uh
specifically you know looking at an area
either for a specific window of time or
just durationally for a certain
collection target or things that happen
to to observe uh in this case UAP um
incidentally on their mission. So
bringing that all together essentially
in my mind where that goes is you're
building an operational picture of the
world um and having all domain awareness
and is this happening sort of in this
really systematic way across all of our
image intelligence assets obviously you
have satellites you have other optical
sensors you have radar you know on
various you know naval ships you know
all over the world is this happening
sort of comprehen ensively is this kind
of a niche program that we're we're
trying out at low scale or what sort of
scale is this operating at?
>> Well, at the time of my exposure, you
know, I've learned more since then
through uh other sources who would know.
Um, but it was focused on imagery and
mass. So, measurement and signals
intelligence
>> uh sorry, measurement and signatures
intelligence. Uh, so the imagery is kind
of self-explanatory across different
spectrums. the massent is it's you're
basically looking at
things like you know radar returns,
electromagnetic returns, uh emissions uh
and kind of going you're kind of in that
realm of technical scientific analysis
of things that
if you look at the end product is just
going to be like a a spectral graph. not
very uh uh uh sexy for the viewer, but
it's hard scientific data gathered
through um pretty unique means, not just
on UAP, but you can do mass on all all
sorts of uh collection targets
>> with all sorts of means.
>> And do you get the sense that this is a
a global project funded in the billions
or it's like a small kind of pilot
project or
>> just from that briefing alone? Uh
definitely got the sense it was global.
It was well established. Um, you know,
it was the mission itself probably, you
know, took advantage of our our existing
collection architecture and it's a
mission that is operating kind of as a
ride along or uh through existing means.
I don't do not doubt that there are
dedicated uh collection platforms for
the subject. Um, but just sticking to
what was on on the page. Um, yeah, it
was definitely a global established uh
well-resourced effort. So an an open-
source version of this using kind of
existing means would be SpaceX for
example has its Starlink fleet. So
thousands of satellites, you know, for,
you know, internet service provider
access, you know, across the globe, but
they can double use those, you know,
they have put optical sensors on them.
And there's a program called Star Shield
where they can work with, you know, the
NRO, you know, on on that sort of double
use. And so this would be something
similar where we have all these assets
that collect image intelligence and
other signatures. And why not just
collate all of that when it comes to
UFOs and feed it into some sort of
central database and presumably do some
AI analysis over it.
>> Yep. Bingo. Um you got it. I would just
add that you know it yes space-based
assets were included but it also
included you know terrestrial assets
including like you know uh not just
aircraft flying in the atmosphere but um
uh seaborn kind of uh sensor platforms
as well. So um whole spectrum at least
what I saw um was was used. Do we have
any sense of who ran this program, where
it was based? Were there any names on
the document that were relevant? Yes. Uh
and you know, having since learned more,
have more fidelity on that, but um that
wasn't in my state department cleared
report. Uh so I will just say that you
know it was the uh you know pointing
towards uh Shrivever Air Force Base in
Colorado as being at least one hub of of
this program.
>> And does that make sense to you given
was Shrivever known for other things
that are sort of adjacent to this?
>> Yeah, it's it's a major I mean it's a
major place for our space operations. I
think there's a there is a space command
there. I used to know um where a lot of
commands were but you know that
knowledge is kind of fading but um major
uh space surveillance uh ISR um and
operations hub is in Colorado Springs
and how much is mentioned you by the way
some of this is public right now is is
the entire Immaculate is the entire
Immaculate constellation document public
or is it just part of it with some parts
redacted that's public
>> so yeah the report I And that's then
that's the name that you know has stuck.
The immaculate constellation report. It
it's a bit of a misnomer. I submitted it
to Congress as a field report. It's
seven categories of evidence only one of
those being the immaculate constellation
program. Obviously that gets the
attention, but there's a lot of goodness
in there besides that.
>> Um
so what is in there is is the summary of
what I saw and reported to Congress. Um
just the facts of of my exposure. Um the
broader report you know has more detail
um but you know I provided that to
Congress uh and a different one for
submission for public clearance. So have
to stick with what was cleared for
public.
>> Got it. So there so there is a
difference between what you saw and what
the public gets to see
>> there certain between what I wrote.
Yeah.
>> Yeah. Or no I I mean like the Immaculate
Constellation file.
>> Oh yeah. the PowerPoint is is I mean I I
I never uh brought that anywhere. In
fact, you know, I going through the
exposure to it and reporting it, you
know, I wasn't I didn't become a
whistleblower, right? Um I had years of
my career after that.
>> That file, that specific file, that
briefing um was mysteriously deleted
after being reported. Um
>> but did you see a deeper version? So you
saw obviously a different format, but
did you see you saw more information
than what came out in the Michael
Shelonburgger
congressional hearing with Nancy Mace?
Is that correct?
>> Or is it you saw the same information?
Basically,
>> it's so what what came out in the what I
reported to Congress and in the document
is is the summary of about you know 12
to 15 slides something like that. Um so
is there more? Yes, but you basically
have a summary. It's not like I got the
the full I was never fully read in into
immaculate constellation. Um I'm sure
there's things I got wrong because I was
only was one limited exposure or things
that are incomplete. But you know uh the
fact of the program has been established
beyond reasonable doubt both through uh
my exposure and then you know other
sources that have developed since then.
um you know some clarifications have
been uh arrived at which is you know I
saw it as a DoD program that's how it
was presented in the briefing but you
know came to learn later that it's you
know DoD might be implementing it but
it's actually ran out of and owned by
the National Security Council out of the
White House. So you know there there's
clearly more to the story. Um
but you know I I I'm only basing it off
of a limited exposure. What are the most
striking things that the Immaculate
Constellation documents say about UFOs,
UAP, non-human intelligence?
>> I mean, I think
well, number one, it didn't really
characterize what these things were,
right? Pretty sure that's a separate
briefing. Um but it just established the
fact of these things operating around
the world uh including over the
continental United States over adversary
countries, third party countries um
both around sensitive uh facilities
connected with WMD and then in in the
global commons like over the oceans. Um,
and does it say that they show up around
weapons of mass destruction and nuclear?
>> Uh, in in that document, no, it doesn't
it does not uh say that they
specifically do that. But that is uh you
know a well established fact just from
um other reporting uh in the government
and some of that included in in the
document that I submitted to Congress um
and in the public version. Uh, and
there's there's other people besides me
that have made that link, right? I think
Robert Salis is probably the most
famous. There's a I saw you had a copy
of one of the books like UFO and nukes.
Um,
>> yeah,
>> it's it's established beyond a
reasonable doubt that uh not just
nuclear uh facilities draw their
attention. Um, but WMD in general.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> And so, okay, so it talks about these
sort of global reports of UFOs. It also
talks about different geometries, isn't
that right? And kind of tax taxonomy of
>> So my report does the immaculate
constellation briefing included examples
of different types.
>> Um again, this is a briefing for senior
leadership. So it's kind of high level
in the document you know it it showed uh
basically four case studies if you want
to call it that of collection events on
these that were relatively
recent to the time of that report's
drafting or sorry that briefing's
drafting which was around 2018. So, you
know, most interesting one to me was a
was a big triangle um over over Russian
naval vessels. Uh and indeed that was
kind of like the first example led or
presented in the briefing. Um also was
included with things like orbs. Um and
it was interesting because one of the
events that was listed there was an
event I was already familiar with
outside of that briefing itself. um kind
of demonstrating that you know
these events might occur outside of the
immaculate constellation tasking but
they are brought into sort of the
mission um as as part of its you know
role and capabilities
uh
>> what happened with the triangle
>> uh so I mean it as described in there it
it appeared over so sorry uh to set the
scene um we had a a surveillance asset
uh in the ocean off the uh I believe was
Kamchchatka but the the eastern
seabboard of Russia in the in the
Pacific and there was a grouping of
Russian naval vessels, one of them being
a known uh Russian uh intelligence
vessel um at night and then the triangle
basically appears um you know whether
you say it decloaked, materialized,
phased in, who knows? The the point is
that it just it it appeared seemingly
out of nowhere. Um did not describe you
know what the me what the nature of that
appearance was. Um but it appeared above
them um relatively relatively close like
it wasn't way up in the sky. It was
maybe a a football field or two above
them um and just hovered there. uh kind
of described as like, you know, kind of
tilted to the side. Um
and there was no reaction from the
Russian vessels. Um anybody could have
seen that thing. Uh so we did as well.
And uh you know, it kind of just hung
that hung out there uh for a duration of
time. The the briefing didn't describe
how long. Uh and then disappeared kind
of
just as suddenly as it appeared. And uh
that's really the the summary of that
event. Uh you know it described the
event. It described they're sorry the
briefing described the event. It
described um you know who the who which
vessels were there. You know it had
names of them and stuff. Um and uh the
fact that they had been there in that
area for a period of time before the
best before the triangle appeared and
their analysis was that they had that
the Russians had fornowledge that this
triangle would appear there and then
they were essentially there to meet with
it or or wait or waiting for it to
appear.
>> How did the Russians have fornowledge
that the triangle would appear there?
>> Not explained. Uh
>> maybe I can guess
>> maybe they had their their own version
of Immaculate Constellation or maybe
they were messing with some nuclear
stuff or
>> cuz they're baiting techniques, right,
to like cause these UFOs to show up.
>> Yeah. So, I mean to to verge into my own
speculation and not what was on the
page,
>> um I've come to believe that that was
some sort of pre-arranged meeting um for
whatever purpose. I don't know. Um, but
the triangles in particular seem to be
highly advanced. Uh,
I think when we talk about baiting
operations, you're baiting more of sort
of automatic sensors that might be in
our atmosphere or in our oceans, right?
>> Probes or
>> things like that. Yeah. that are, you
know, kind of a cause and effect
response versus something like the
triangle by many accounts,
uh, is is is under intelligent control,
uh, highly advanced. Seems like it would
be unlikely that it would not just, uh,
be baited by Russian naval vessels in
the ocean, but um, you know, appear in
such close proximity, uh, to them for
for fun. It seems like there was some
some reason for that meeting. So you
think the meeting was intentional on
both sides
>> at this point? Yeah, I think um
>> and when we say meeting the things
materializing and then flying off, what
is that?
>> Yeah.
>> What what do the Russians get out of,
you know, even trying to sort of meet
with, [laughter]
you know, that's not like you're like
sitting down.
>> Yeah. maybe
>> over a a table and uh you know
conversing and talking about you know
you're not negotiating anything right or
or do you think something is transferred
when the
>> probably some sort of transfer yeah less
diplomatic meeting where people get off
a ship and have dinner um more of it
seems like again speculation that that
was
>> some sort of transfer event maybe it was
uh data
>> right being transferred in a secure way
you know uh line of sight kind of link
so that there's low probability of
intercept cept um or something else. Um
>> but that
>> I don't know
>> that would imply I mean if there was
some sort of data transfer that that the
Russians were aware of and they're sort
of like you know predetermining this
meeting that would imply a level of
coordination with the beings that you
know would be remarkable. It would be
like at the highest levels of our
government and their government, we're
sort of meeting, you know, when we want
to with aliens or with aliens as a, you
know, a conclusion, but with
>> something anomalous,
>> some intelligence. Yeah.
>> I I mean, I I can't say off of just that
document alone that that was a nonhuman
craft. It certainly lines up with
descriptions of non-human craft, but at
this point in time, it's possible that,
you know, the United States and others
have some sort of derivative technology
that looks like the big black triangle,
right? Uh there's that famous NID study
done in the I think late 90s or early
2000s where they correlate triangle
sightings to naval bases in the United
States. So either what's what's going on
is you know there's some sort of
recurring exchange or in use of our
facilities by whatever is piloting these
big black triangles um or or we have
some sort of derivative technology ourel
that operate from these bases. Uh Jeff
Nusatelli also described you know a big
black triangle coming out of the Pacific
Ocean flying into Vandenberg uh
basically hovering over the runway at
Vandenberg Air Force Base and then
disappearing. I talked to five shaken
witnesses who described a massive
triangular craft larger than a football
field that hovered silently for about 45
seconds over their entry control point
before shooting away at impossible
speed.
>> Dylan Morland also at Langley in 2012.
>> At approximately 0130, I saw an
approximately 100 ft equilateral
triangle take off from near the NASA
hanger on the base. He sees this
triangular craft seemingly kind of come
out of or maybe it was hovering around a
NASA hanger at the Air Force base and
then it flies at his head. Yeah.
>> And then it flies off.
>> Yeah.
>> I'd be pretty freaked out if that
happened to me. Um
>> Yeah. So, you know, there's these are
all examples of the United States having
some sort of
relationship with these with these
craft, whether it's our own gifted tech
or truly a third party.
uh can only speculate but you know I
have some good guesses.
>> What's your what's your best guess
>> that there is an exchange or some sort
of arrangement with whatever is piloting
the
the black triangles that are not ours. I
believe we do have a derivative version
at this point.
>> Uhhuh. Um but that is again derived from
the real thing and the real thing um
there is some sort of ongoing contact
and communication
um clearly not just the United States
but other governments as well.
>> That's my opinion.
>> And when it flies in the vicinity
there's like some sort of download that
occurs. There's like a transmission of
information.
>> That's what some people have reported.
Um again I did not come across official
information. Uh, well, I did not come
across information on that in the IMAC
constellation briefing.
>> Okay. Um,
>> all right. We'll read between the lines
there. [laughter] What any other case
studies that really struck you outside
of this Russian naval vessel incident?
>> Uh, so I mean in in the IMAC
constellation briefing, that was the the
highlight for me. Um the other ones were
examples of of orbs or irregular/organic
things. And some of those were again um
incidents I was familiar with that had
would be incidental collections cuz I'd
seen them on other systems. Um but they
clearly were fed up into immaculate
constellations. So I I was already
familiar with them is what I'm getting
at. Um it was certainly notable to see
them in the briefing and see the
analysis done with them, but the
triangle was entirely novel and new. And
um as I think I point out like there
seems to be some sort of control like
information control system or security
classification internal related directly
to the triangles cuz they appear very
rarely in the sort of regular reporting
stream and they're definitely in my
opinion plucked out and sequestered. Can
I read your report because I think it'd
be good for people to just Okay. Uh,
Immaculate Constellation's primary
mission is collecting imagery
intelligence on unidentified aerial
phenomenon. An ARV/RV.
>> So, ARV is that alien reproduction
vehicle or is that advanced research
vehicle or what? What is ARV?
>> Yeah. Uh so there is what was presented
in the Immaculate Constellation briefing
and my report to Congress was just
reporting what I saw uh not my opinions
on it. So in the briefing ARV and RV
were the terms were the abbreviations
used throughout. It was uh expanded
right on on only one occasion. Um, and
you know, to the best of my
recollection, it was expanded as alien
reproduction vehicle. Now, my personal
opinion is that that
term as well as the sort of upfront
context of, oh, MCON was created as a
result of Lu Alzando exposing ATIP were
two instances of information uh kind of
poison pills as you were or signature
Uh what am I trying to say here?
Basically a counter intelligence tool to
see that uh okay we described these
things using these words and gave this
kind of program history during these
years. So if there is a leak uh and we
see in the leak that these terms are
used or this program history is used
then we can start narrowing in on you
know who leaked it because you know
counter intelligence internal security
keeps that file right. My
personal opinion is that if you're going
to do foyer searches, you're going to
have better luck searching for the term
advanced reconnaissance vehicle. You'll
find some things from TRW uh in
particular. Uh not the army ground
platform that comes up from the cursory
search. um you know that the term I know
I've since learned uh has a bit of a
reputation uh both from the I think Mark
Mlan Mckish
>> Mandlish yeah
>> Macandlish story which I only became
familiar with after publishing this cuz
everyone jumped on it uh and the sort of
Steven Greer expansions on that
dialogue. Um, to me it always seemed a
bit too on the nose to call something an
alien reproduction vehicle in a briefing
like that. Um, but again, I just
reported to Congress what I saw. So,
yeah, take take it as you will. I would
not put too much stock in that term
being the full truth of what those are.
But the acronym itself,
ARV or RV, I believe will also yield
good returns to people that use those
terms to search. Y
>> um we're in the hall of mirrors. This is
intelligence. This is counter
intelligence. Um this is program
protection. Um
you know, I wish there was a simple
answer so that I didn't have to qualify
things and could give people easy
digestible answers, but that's not where
we are where we're at. Do you think that
there's a chance that the spillage and
that you kind of bumping into this
document, I immaculate constellation was
actually by design and that it was some
sort of program protection device and
that some intel group is systematically
tagging advanced research vehicles or
reconnaissance vehicles with the sort of
alien insignia in order to be able to
sort of track the the flow of, you know,
who talks about these sorts of things.
Personally, no. Um, if you're going to
have bait, you would make it much more
appealing. The document was a working
document. It was clearly something that
was in the middle of being drafted. Like
there were placeholder slides, right,
where a control officer would insert SAP
material. Uh, there were no appropriate
portion markings and you I was able to
see looking at the file history like it
had been edited recently by certain
people. Um, and it wasn't labeled in a
way that would draw attention, nor was
it stored in a location that people
would want to search for it. It was just
>> Do you know who wrote it?
>> Uh, I know at least one person who was
editing it.
>> Uhhuh.
>> Um, you know, you can only learn so much
from a file's metadata, especially when
you're working in a bureaucracy.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Um, yeah.
>> Anybody's name you can say or?
>> Uh, no. I I you know, I I gave that
information to Congress. Um yeah.
>> Okay. And you said Immaculate
Constellation is an unagnowledged uh
special access program. So a USAP it was
established following the public
disclosure of the ATIP SAP programs run
by Luis Alzando in 2017.
>> So did Lou Alzando have something to do
with Immaculate Constellation? He was,
you know, before Congress uh a couple
years ago and, you know, actually next
to Michael Shelonburgger who was
basically kind of a surrogate for you
like talking about Immaculate
Constellation. He, you know, handed the
docks to Nancy Mace along with Jeremy
Corbell. Very important to to mention
that. Um but uh when asked about
Immaculate Constellation, Lou Alzando
said,
>> um Mr. Alzando, were you read into the
Immaculate Constellation program? Um I
would not be authorized to confirm nor
deny the existence of any ongoing or
past program especially as it relates to
a special access program either by name
or triraph.
>> The modern hermeneutic on that is you
were read in and you know all about it
you know so
>> yeah the glowar response has kind of
lost its utility. Everyone knows you're
saying yes at this point when
>> so even a counterintel agent would know
that that's going to be interpreted as
like you know people are going to know
that you were you were all over it. Um,
so I mean, yes, that, you know, I'm
paraphrasing. I I never brought the
briefing itself to Congress, nor could
I. Um, it was years since that exposure
and deleted and I never, uh, you know,
did anything like that. Um, but that is
how it was described. I don't think
that's accurate. I think that is an
intentional, you know, halftruth
uh included in the document to both kind
of give a plausible history to the
program uh as well as a signature for
again people that would spill it or
sorry, leak it later on if anybody
leaked it later on. Counter intelligence
could say, "Okay, we know, you know,
these kind of signifiers were used, so
we know who was exposed to this
material. We can start searching." Um I
I've again through other sources learned
that you know immaculate constellation
is an relatively old program. It's an
old mission I should say uh run out of
the NSC. Uh it was not created in
response to Lou going forward in 2017
and in revealing the ATIP code word um
or pseudonym. Um
so you know again we're in the hall of
mirrors. So you think that was the the
the document
uh was not reflecting the reality which
is that this had been a long-standing
program running up to the National
Security Council and this was sort of
being claimed by OAP ATIP and these sort
of modern much smaller you know uh
nominal kind of UFO efforts. Is that
right?
>> Um
seems to be the case.
>> Yeah. I'd also say that since you're
briefing senior leaders, you know, you
you're trying to just establish a
highlevel view of this and also the
people who own these programs get to
have a voice on what what information is
briefed outwards. So that might be going
on as well. Like we're only going to
give them the bare minimum level of
detail and hey, we'll stick with current
events. Um this is in 2018 uh black
auras and black budgets or whatever that
article was just a year prior. So it it
gives a plausible sort of uh foundation
to any senior leader who has not
previously previously read into any
other UAP programs to kind of latch on
to and say, "Okay, this is what it is.
Um I don't have to think too much
further."
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because OAP was a $22
million program. So I don't think of
that as even being able to house some
like 360 surveillance global ubiquitous,
you know, Yeah. intel collecting network
on UFOs. Yeah. And I would hazard to
guess that because I immaculate
constellation is an operational SAP, you
know, it doesn't actually own any of the
capabilities. It owns the mission and
the tasking. Um the actual assets
themselves, the research and development
for them, the analysis is all going to
be pushed down uh to the actual like
functional components and most likely
are in their own stove pipe saps and
caps. uh you know compartmentation all
all the way down.
>> Yeah. Got it. Okay. And some of the
other things that your report mentions
are just fascinating. Scentcom. What is
sentcom for the
>> central command?
>> Central command discusses cuboid
formation of metallic orbs on USG
networks. US government networks. There
exists daytime FMV. What's FMV? Full
motion video. Yes. and fleer forward
looking infrared footage of a formation
of 12 metallic orbs skimming the ocean
surface at high speed before dispersing
in multiple directions. That's pretty
wild.
>> Yep.
>> Indopaccom. What's Indopaccom?
>> Uh
Indian Ocean Pacific Command.
>> Indian Ocean Pacific Command.
>> I probably have that wrong actually, but
yeah.
>> All good. Large disc using clouds as
concealment. Uh on USG networks there
exists OPER information OPIR overhead
persistent infrared
>> of a large saucer shaped UAP emerging
within a dense cloud formation. Northcom
uh is that north northern command
>> command? Yep. USA
>> jellyfish UAP crosses US Mexico border.
Southcom southern command tic tac
detected by space asset in proximity of
vessel. And you know that obviously
makes you think of Nimtts in 2004 and
other sort of tic-tac reports in and
around the water, but this is much more
recent.
>> Uh the tic-tac maneuvers at an altitude
at or near local cloud cover and
correlated electromagnetic signatures
were collected by Massant. So that's the
collection capability we're talking
about before. What does Massintent stand
for again?
>> Measurement and sign measurement and
signatures intelligence.
>> Measurement and signatures intelligent.
In the available footage, the tic tac
UAP transits rapidly through the field
of regard as it transits the ocean. It's
wild. So that's this transmedium tic tac
being discussed.
>> Yep. In proximity to a naval vessel.
>> So wild. So
>> again, um,
you know, either it is interested in
these military vessels. I I have to
revisit my report so I don't speak out
of school. Um but
uh quite interesting that you have that
kind of occurrence in a mac
constellation with the triangle and then
in this which is separate reporting
streams, separate exposure or uh not
exposures but separate intelligence you
have similar kind of behavior being done
um by a very advanced uh vehicle. Wild.
Um and you also have kind of a taxonomy.
So you have um you know specific
geometries that you list and general
capabilities or attributes kind of
associated with those you know forms and
shapes and stuff. So just one example
table two is a disc/saucer you go over
orbs before that you know triangles
after that but the disc/saucer
uh you know size generally range from a
few meters to over 20 m in diameter
speed exhibits capabilities for both
hovering and high-speed flight often
making sudden sprints. Radar detection
varies. Visual sightings are more
common. Uh they're often metallic silver
or gray is common. So that's just
fascinating. So do you think this is
what is being sort of outputed by all of
these you know kind of collection so so
you do all these collections you know as
part of this program and then you funnel
that into some sort of AI analytical
overlay or something
are these attributes what comes out on
the other end is that sort of your
understanding that you're reporting
>> those sections we we are no longer
talking about the immaculate
constellation briefing those are
separate intelligence uh sources
Okay.
>> And those those tables you're looking at
um are are self-generated
>> uh based on my exposure to many things
but they're aggregated. I would hazard
to guess though that they match pretty
closely to what's on the inside and
independent analysis that's been done on
the inside uh because the simple fact of
you know we're all looking at the same
data you're going to come to similar
conclusions um if you're oper operating
in good faith.
>> Yeah. So kind of similar to Dylan
Borland who I just had on a show you
have like a core experience. In his
case, it was seeing a craft. In your
case, it was bumping into this document.
And then you kind of vigilante after the
fact are like, "This is insane. I need
to verify and look more into this and uh
look at corroboration for this outside
of just this core single document." Is
that right?
>> I mean, a little bit. I mean, again, I
was exposed to UAP intelligence before
coming across the immaculate
constellation briefing and after uh
because I was in the WMD mission space.
These were incidents that were reported
um in our intelligence stream very
often.
>> Got it.
>> Um so it was, you know, it wasn't like
vigilantism. It was this is part of my
mission. Um
>> so you you knew of reports before seeing
the immaculate constellation documents,
>> correct?
>> Of UFOs showing up at nuclear sites and
that. Wow.
>> Uh across all sources of intelligence.
So whether it's you know imagery
intelligence and all those different
forms of it to signals to um human to
mass
um to sigant I said signals yeah so even
before mcon that exposure um yeah
definitely the the fact of UAP was
rapidly established in my mind and just
through the virtue of my job. Have you
seen video that's stepwise clearer or
sharper than what we've seen from kind
of, you know, naval video, you know,
forward-looking infrared coming out in
2017?
As you guys know, I'm often doing shows
that run three or four, sometimes even 5
hours. People see the finished
conversation, but the real work is what
comes before it. Weeks of reading and
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Have you seen video that's step-wise
clearer or sharper than what we've seen
from kind of, you know, naval video, you
know, forward-looking infrared coming
out in 2017?
>> Yes.
>> Wow. That's remarkable. Is that like a
That's kind of a heavy thing to sit
with, I imagine. the fact that you know
>> well I I never saw any beings on the
inside so I always
not always I'm
you I can guess why because you know
that there's probably a control system
for those um all the stuff coming out
from these Department of War you know
data drops data dumps are are just very
fuzzy you know and you so you've seen
things that are way sharper than what's
come out there
>> I I would yeah definitely um also I mean
there's the difference of seeing those
kind of Department of War videos uh on
the inside in in near real time, right?
And the kind of level of confidence you
have in what you're seeing being truly
anomalous uh and
uh very relevant in your day-to-day
mission versus seeing it uh in its
censored form, in its downgraded form on
the outside. So, you know, it's a I'
I've definitely been exposed to a mix of
quality both in terms of the visual
fidelity and in the resolution of what
this object is. Um
but I mean you can't replicate the
exposure sorry the experience of of
seeing stuff on the inside and it's like
this happened yesterday
>> right
>> uh that definitely has an emotional
impact and you know from a level of
certainty like you know I person you you
personally feel very confident that you
know what what was collected on really
occurred um and
is important After seeing the immaculate
constellation docks, does your desire to
know ramp up? So obviously you have the
sort of like smattering of reports that
come in due to just incidentally, you
know, you being involved in counterWMD
stuff. These things show up around
sensitive nuclear assets. So obviously
you're going to run into UFOs through,
you know, that job. Uh but then you see
this dock and you realize that we've
kind of been comprehensively
uh sequestering, quarantining and you
know really uh uh you know gathering
intelligence on UFOs globally. Do you
then want to kind of like do a deeper
dive?
>> Um oh definitely. Uh and
you know on a more personal level it was
okay I'm early in my career. How can I
get into the office that does this? How
can I how can I get a job working the
UAP mission set? [laughter] That that
was the the personal motivation there
was less um you know go you know go find
all the details kind of secret squirrel
like it was more of okay this is very
real. There's clearly a lot going on um
that the US government isn't telling its
own employees. Um how do I get a job
working this issue?
>> Did you try to get a job on the UFO
legacy program? Uh, I'll just say that I
figured out a few places where both my
skill set would apply and the mission
would overlap and um, you know, I was on
that on that direction. Yeah.
>> And what what would you describe your
core skill set as
>> man? Uh, you know, I was never formerly
you know uh an analyst. I was never an
operations officer. I was kind of living
in a nebulous world of of strategy,
right? Okay. So my my uh skill set as it
were fell under net assessment and
strategic development. So you the first
term is kind of a term of art in the
in the military or the strategic culture
of the United States. Uh net assessment
being like you're basically weighing up
blue force capabilities, red force
capabilities.
uh intelligence around all that both you
know your domestic picture and your
adversar's domestic picture and not
necessarily
coming to a conclusion about like you
know how many tanks do they have this
year and how many are they going to have
next year it's okay what does the United
States need to do to achieve its
interests given this net assessment of
of the state of play in the world and
using that to kind of drive our strategy
and in very long-term increments 10 20
30 uh 50 years and it the grandfather of
that was a man called uh Andrew
Marshall, the Yoda of the Pentagon.
There's a whole office to it called the
Office of Net Assessment. Um very
interesting place. Yeah, they do kind of
like you said kind of long-term
strategic planning which seems really
like you know especially visav China
where you have leadership that's
entrenched for many years that's not
being cycled in and out you know it
feels like a real deficit when it comes
to you know US planning. Yeah, I think I
think we keep those cards close to our
chest. Uh, rightly so, but maybe too
close because if not everybody's uh, you
know, playing to the same music, you get
a lot of, uh, wasted effort. And I think
unfortunately that that has occurred
both as a consequence of,
you know, uh, stove piping and then
excessive classification,
compartmentation, whatever you want to
call it. What happens between you
potentially wanting to work the UFO
Legacy program and you saying, you know,
being kind of exasperated and wanting to
blow the whistle instead?
Uh, I mean, it was really,
you know, current events. Um, I was just
minding my own business really. Uh,
continuing my career. Um, and because it
was in WMD, that meant more and more
exposure to UAP and more and more
exposure to like the the communities
inside the the IC and the Pentagon that
were tracking this uh and discussing it.
And it really came down to um
I I guess
you know learning from people in that
community that uh Congress needed
whistleblowers that this was not being
uh managed correctly that it was being
withheld from both the executive
leadership and the congressional
leadership that you know there is no
oversight. This program has kind of gone
rogue. Um,
you know, I didn't I've kind of
developed in my view of of of what uh
that situation is. Uh, but at the time
it is kind of presented as
uh, you know, this was this is a
consequence of kind of cold war secrecy.
It's it's been out, you know, on its own
for too long. Now we're trying to reel
it back in without exposing
capabilities. Um,
you know, help us do that. Then there
was another
uh line of communication that was saying
like people's lives are at risk both
because of the security measures being
taken to keep this secret, the kind of
corruption or
uh unprofessionalism that has seeped
into the program just by virtue of being
so in the black, so unilaterally managed
and that there's, you know, potential
like external threats that are going to
put these people's lives at risk. So
that combination of no executive or no
executive and congressional oversight at
least to the civilian leadership
plus people's lives being in danger uh
is what pushed me to become a
whistleblower and in fact I was asked to
be a whistleblower. Even after hearing
that information I felt like I didn't
have anything that would be sufficiently
useful to to Congress. Um but
>> were you asked by Congress or who
>> uh someone else who was who was um you
know interfacing with Congress and then
>> you know
>> kind of did a delicate dance of like
here's here's some code words um
>> yeah you should go it doesn't matter how
little you know Congress really does
need it and uh yeah I followed that
>> and before I think it's really important
to note that before going to Congress
before you know trying to potentially
work legacy and then becoming a
whistleblower. You also uh reported the
this quote unquote spillage is I guess
the term where you know you bumped into
this classified special access program
doc and you realized you shouldn't have
and you also realized it shouldn't just
be sitting there on this server and so
you reported it to the proper
authorities.
>> Yeah, that was years before becoming a
whistleblower. Um I I yeah I'll just
briefly tell the story. Um, you know,
once I found out, you know, the proper
process and kind of sat with it for a
while, like, well, I saw this thing. I
got to tell someone at this point. Yeah.
So, I I went to my first like sort of
direct report, showed it to him. Um,
he basically
recommended to me, delete that and
pretend he never saw it, and then he
just left the room. And I was like,
well, damn. uh old heads telling me that
uh do I follow his advice or do I keep
trying to do like what the procedures
say? Um so I followed the procedure went
to the next level of authority. That
person said, "Okay, you need to go to
SAPCO
uh special access program coordinating
office um and report this." So then I
went there. That was the third kind of
reporting chain and that's where I was
told like, "Okay, you don't need to sign
anything. Um go away."
um very mysterious kind of uh in
interaction and then the file was
deleted and I just went on with my life.
There was no outcome from that. I just
uh you know privately came to the
conclusion like well that was that was
real. Um
>> I'm going to follow their advice and not
talk about that anymore and continue in
my career.
>> Were you able to independently verify
that Immaculate Constellation was a real
program outside of just this one kind of
PowerPoint you saw? Okay.
>> Yes. And this is through just other
personnel who would know or
>> Yeah. people that had placement and
access as they say. So
>> you know, and you take their word for
it. Are were they definitely not in
coordination with one another? Were they
in disperate sort of roles where they
would have the access and knowledge?
>> Yeah. I mean to to the best of my
ability to determine for sure. Um and if
it was just rumor, you know, that's
probably not enough. But having seen the
source material itself and gone through
the anomalous sort of reporting process
and having the broader context of
exposure to UAP, no doubt in my mind
it's a real mission, real program.
>> Does any of this have to do with the
National Reconnaissance Office and their
Sensient program?
>> Uh I mean to a degree, you know, you
could think of that as like an enabler
to the mission. Um the sentient program
would have come online to my
understanding after like you know
immaculate constellation had already
existed but would have been integrated
with it as you know leveraging
artificial intelligence to to do sort of
this sourcing uh and basically live
detection and censorship or uh
compartmentalization rather of of these
collection events to both maintain sort
of the internal security control and
then but more importantly to to get eyes
on to an event, you know, rapidly to
collect more instead of, you know,
having to wait days or months. Again,
>> what about there's a program at the
National Geospatial Agency called
Marsupial. Is that related at all?
>> No comment.
>> Okay. No comment. Um, and anything
dealing with like um CIA's Office of
Global Access or Rapid Response or
anything like that? So, I never was
exposed to, you know, their relevance to
the UAP mission, but I find all the
public reporting that's been done on it,
uh, very plausible.
>> Yeah. And so, obviously, these things
are being spotted globally.
>> For me, I'm like 100% on that on this,
you know, these anomalous objects
obviously showing up in aerial spaces in
really sensitive military facilities,
nuclear sites, national labs. that feels
like almost like you got to really be,
you know, dogmatically skeptical, uh, a
bad actor or like not very smart to like
accept that that's true. And so,
Immaculate Constellation corroborating
that we're measuring that is very
interesting and, you know, I'd say
remarkable unto itself. But to me,
there's always this cut off between that
and like this multigenerational,
you know, decadesl long crash retrieval
and reverse engineering program. Are you
also confident in that? And are you as
confident that we have, you know, the
tracking over here of just these aerial
objects as we are like nuts and bolts
material that we're working on and we
have NHI derived tech?
>> I I mean, yes. uh no direct exposure to
the reverse engineering program at least
from my time on the inside. Um you know
you meet people afterwards and make of
it what you will. I think there's enough
there there though to uh to say that
something like that is is ongoing and is
ran out of our national labs for sure
and our defense contractors most
probably
um and that there has been successes.
um
the
crash retrieval program. I I mean I kind
of wonder if that's a bit of a misnomer
intentionally so like how often are
these things just crashing or if they
are crashing is it so much an accident
as it is like you know is it more of a
result of some sort of conflict between
either between these things or have we
developed some capability to bring at
least a subset of these type of vehicles
you know down
um and also you know
>> do you think we have
>> there's an archaeological aspect to that
as Well, which I think is probably more
interesting. Um cuz then you're getting
into well
that's kind of proof just through
geological processes that these
technologies have been here for a long
time, right? If you're digging something
up under, you know, tens of meters of of
sediment deposited on the ocean floor,
like that takes time to build up.
>> And are do you think there is an
archaeological component where we're
finding these things? I do really
>> do. I mean, that's something that I've
since come to uh both believe and kind
of learn more about. Um,
>> yeah, I think that's there that's
definitely uh one of the sort of
>> secret aspects to this.
>> Yeah. Do you think that's more I mean
Bob Lazar said that uh you know the
craft that he worked on was from an
archaeological dig on the ocean floor
and it came from the Navy
>> and so interesting.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Do you think that that's
more common maybe than actual crashes?
>> I would I mean just my personal opinion,
yes. Um I think
shooting down these things, especially
if they the category of these anomalous
craft that are nonhuman in origin is is
probably uh dangerous to do. Um, but I
am not briefed into, you know, the
nature of our relationship with these
beings and what level of cooperation or
competition we have with them. So, I
won't make a a value statement on that
like some will where it's like, oh,
we're shooting down our space brothers.
I don't I I wish it was true, but I
don't think we are in such a uh, you
know, magnanimous uh, position with
these beings. Are you high conviction in
anything when it comes to UFOs or
anomalous non-human intelligence that is
very kind of contrarian and goes against
kind of the prevailing, you know,
understanding of how these things work,
you know, either from a, you know,
intent perspective or crash retrieval
reverse engineering perspective or like
what the government's relationship is to
these things.
>> I don't know. Um, I'm, you know, I'm not
from ufology. Uh I I uh don't have the
background or the sort of you know the
lines drawn in the sand like I'm in the
camp where you know there's no such
thing as a threat that's all government
propaganda to the oh it's all a threat.
Um
>> so maybe that's contrarian. Um I I think
it's a mix. I think just like humanity
um itself, you know, there's violent
actors and there's good people that are
violent and under duress too or for good
reasons. Um, yeah, I think
[sighs and gasps]
I think uh like I said, uh the reality
is is more complicated than we're
allowed to believe. And um saying it's
all this, it's all that is is is
reductive and unhelpful.
>> When you were speaking with George Knapp
and Jeremy Corbel, you said these things
might be made for purpose
>> as if they're like made to spec for
specific functions.
>> Yeah. What makes you believe that?
>> So that's looking specifically at sort
of the you could almost consider them
like tactical vehicles, things that are
on the smaller side. Uh especially
things that are like irregularly shaped
where it looks like they have either
things that are like, you know, custom
configured antennas or like manipulator
kind of objects or or parts of it that
seem like it's for storage of physical
things. Um, so yeah, that that's kind of
my personal analysis of of a subset of
UAP that would, you know, that was
familiar with that seem like, yeah, they
have some definite purses that's not an
aerodynamic shape. Uh, even if maybe
that doesn't matter so much. So much of
this is like very simple geometry. So
when you have things that have more
complex or you know asymmetric geometry
my mind goes towards well it's
fulfilling some sort of specific role
task purpose and then you know you kind
of see uh them interacting in areas
where hey maybe they're picking up stuff
um you kind of it kind of lends weight
towards towards that in my mind pick
>> what would they be picking up?
uh you know they seem to be interested
in certain mineral deposits so might be
you know some level of extraction or
sampling there um and uh it's
uncomfortable but I think there's some
sort of uh extraction and sampling of uh
earth's flora and fauna
possibly human beings yes and
>> probably not limited
>> specific subset of human beings
>> I don't I So when we're talking about uh
you know what the crafters were, I don't
know if there's any relation to to that.
Uh you know I can have separate
speculation that you know there maybe
there's
certain categories of of humanity um
that are are more interesting to them.
But that's not uh from inside
information. That's kind of yeah my own
thoughts. Um, do you think that we've
made agreements with the beings?
>> Yes. Um, for several reasons. I mean,
the most defensible is just from an
analysis of the situation. You know, I
come from international affairs, uh,
diplomatic history, you know,
international competition. And so
looking at behavior to kind of uh divine
intent, you know, capabilities only get
you so far in in that realm. The
behavior especially between human um
human players involved doesn't is it
does not seem explainable
uh unless there is some sort of
agreement uh both between nations and
imposed or arrived at uh between them
and the third parties uh specifically
related to like the secrecy measures,
the lack of any sort of public or
official disclosure.
um the the military arrangements we've
had in in formal treaties like there's
that 1970 something outer space treaty
where we agree to like notify each other
uh if we detect UFOs. Um that's that's I
mean that's straight up an example of an
agreement.
>> Yeah. It's open source. Anybody can look
it up. I think it's 1971 salt talks
between uh you know the US and uh
Soviets and they're saying we have to
coordinate around you know UFOs showing
up in sensitive airspace. So
>> yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> And that there's some, you know, bits
and information kind of picked up from
the inside and
since then from people that are
positioned to know that that points
towards yeah there is at least some
basic sort of set of agreements between
the United States and some sort of third
party and most likely other countries
have some sort of similar or alliance
blocks have some sort of similar
arrangement. What do you think we're
conceding and what do you think we're
gaining through these agreements?
>> I don't know if we gain that much. Uh I
don't think
I don't think any level of altruism has
been displayed. I think it's more uh
>> so we're being submitted essentially. We
have to make we have to make
>> agreements. Yeah.
>> Or maybe you know also just agreements
doesn't always have to be an exchange.
It could be being brought into awareness
that you know these are the rules. Um
you now humans because of your
capabilities and population spread are
being you know
uh rising to our level of attention.
This is kind of how earth operates at a
certain level. So you need to do these
things to stay in sort of the
established uh precedence of of life on
earth. Um,
yeah. Interesting. And and uh what do
you think they're getting out of it?
Because if they're, you know, 360
dominating us, why even, you know,
engage in some sort of explicit
diplomacy versus just like, you know,
take what you want and, you know, come
and go as you please.
>> Yeah. Uh so to set the foundation for
that I mean starting to be more open
um I have learned that it is the oral
tradition in the legacy program itself
that agreements were struck between the
United States and a third party uh in
possession of this technology and that
that agreement in broad terms has two
kind of
uh arrangements. One was that there's
certain areas that the United States uh
within its borders, you know, needs to
stay away from that. That that is
essentially uh someone else's territory.
So, no developments there, no military
operations there, no commercial or human
activity. Um that's one area and of the
agreement. And then the other side is
some sort of access and access to and
communication with humans of their
choice. and that that is the nature of
at least one very old agreement um
sometime in the Truman and Eisenhower
era uh that was arrived at. Um
I'm sure that there are things in the
lore that give more detail. Um I can't
speak to the validity of of those
things, but I'm just sharing that now
that that is uh in in the legacy program
itself. um at least a a line of um
not thought but narrative.
>> Yeah. I mean in the lore you have this
idea of this Griata treaty where
Eisenhower, you know, under the guise of
going to the dentist in Palm Springs in
1954 instead
>> jets off to Edwards Air Force Base where
some diplomatic relations are engaged
with with with these beings. And uh what
the sort of common story is is that the
beings are given access to humans for
medical experimentation to American
citizens.
>> Um
>> but that's interesting. So you you think
there's an oral tradition where uh you
know in the legacy program this is
undocumented but it's sort of well known
among people who work on you know UFO
you know crash retrievalss reverse
engineering or tracking
>> that some sort of treaties were engaged
in
>> agreements is the term that you know was
told to me um and that might be because
treaties have to be you know ratified by
Congress. Mhm.
>> Uh but a business agreement does not. So
I don't know anything about this GA
treaty. Um when there's that kind of
level of detail, I'm kind of skeptical.
Uh especially given the amount of time
that has passed. If you're running, if
all this is real, like I really believe
it is, and have direct knowledge that
aspects of it are concretely real, um
then we would be running, you know, we
our security apparatus would inject
disinformation when there's leaks or to
preempt, you know, any sort of uh
revelation that would be, you know,
counter to our interests. So, I think
there's a lot of um halftruths or
complete fabrications out there that
have kind of become unquestioned parts
of the UFO community or UFO narrative.
>> Yeah.
>> Um but I think there's a core truth
there and it it makes to me it makes
sense, you know, that there has to be
some sort of agreement between us and
other nations regarding this topic and
us and a third party otherwise our
strategic behavior does not make sense.
So, it's almost like the UFO Legacy
program has this like hermetic sort of
unspoken oral tradition like thing
things aren't written down. Is that kind
of what you're implying?
>> Yes. Um and you know developed sources
since then and been approached by people
that you know are I think there is
roughly a split between those who want
reform and some degree of this to come
out and those who don't very very much
do not want any of it to come out. Um
and and Dylan Borland kind of hinted at
this or actually pretty direct about it
with with you where he said uh that
there was a a choice a decision made to
stop briefing new people in the legacy
program on the history of the program.
So that you know you're kind of just you
know getting into the next generation of
people that have no background and into
the the ground truth of you know where
this came from, what has happened and
why decisions were made. you're starting
fresh and you don't you get to avoid the
the sort of complications of the past
probably except for very small circle of
senior leadership who would who would
have the need to know. So that is is
kind of pointing towards well why is it
an oral tradition? It's because you have
a bifurcation now of people who were,
you know, briefed into legacy before
that decision was made to stop telling
people the history or some version of
the history of the program. And those
who have since come into the program did
not receive that history, but people
talk and people have questions,
especially with something as sign
significant as this. Hence the oral
tradition.
>> It's so wild that, [laughter]
you know, you would think that this is
like the most important stuff. So,
>> which is why you would keep it secret,
especially when it's things like
agreements that maybe were
>> the US was compelled to sign and
probably and may have terms unfavorable
to us. You certainly wouldn't want
something like that leaking, especially
when you present yourself as the world's
hyperpower, you know. Um, and and to be
clear, I'm not the only person out here
talking about this. Neither is Dylan
Borland. Uh, David Gush under oath was
asked about agreements and said that he
could not provide further detail. Uh but
he hopes that the people in the legacy
program would come forward with that
information.
>> Yeah. Um
>> possibly an indication that we've made
agreements. Yes.
>> And uh you know when it comes to access
to human beings, it brings to mind the
story of Dan Sherman um you know and
above black and you know that's his
book. I interviewed him and he he was
this electronics intelligence guy you
know at the Air Force and he was doing
this sort of continuing education thing
back in Maryland. and he went into this
NSA complex and um somebody top brass at
the Air Force brings him in and starts
telling him that his mother was
genetically he was genetically altered
as a fetus in the womb. His mother was
abducted when she was pregnant with him
and because of that he was given these
sort of this hyper sensitivity and this
ability to communicate with non-human
intelligence. In 1960, they started a a
project. It was called Project Preserve
Destiny. My mother was one of the the
selected targets or whatever you want to
call it. And they did the genetic
management. That was his words, genetic
management. The result of it was that it
gave me the ability to have this
communications.
It gets even crazier than that. He's
given these sort of binaural beat
headphones. He's shown a sine wave and
told to sort of lock onto the sine wave
and collapse the sine wave on these sort
of graphical interface computers. He
takes these pills and he hears these
tones and he's meant to sort of
communicate with non-human intelligence.
Then he claims to have whole
conversations with aliens and all of
this would seem kind of nuts if it
weren't for the fact that you apparently
can foyer, you know, project preserve
destiny, you know, with visav the air
force. The air force then forwards it to
the NSA
>> which is kind of a tell that it's a real
program and um you know all the facts
line up you know both bases in Italy San
Vito denormy and off it line up with his
descriptions of them his his electronics
intelligence you know
seems totally legit. Um, and then
somebody very senior, former, very
senior in government that I know, uh,
says that that NSA building is real and
that, you know, some other people think
that his story is totally above board.
And the thing he was downloading from
these beings, one of them was called
Bones and one was Spock. So they were
sort of star Trek inspired, just the
names that he decided to name them
casually, you know, cuz he was so like I
think shock he had to like make fun out
of how ridiculous [laughter] this sort
of job was. is they were giving him
coordinates and descriptions of people
being abducted. So he became he went
from moving, you know, from this
electronics intelligence guy to this
alien signals intelligence where it was
almost like this predictive mapping of,
you know, where human beings in the US
were being abducted.
Yeah, it's it's pretty
wild, but it's one I mean that book is
one of the very few UFO books I've read
and only read that book specifically
because it was told to me by insiders
that it was a credible disclosure and it
basically the real deal. Um
I I think that is some evidence of you
know sort of the implementation of these
agreements especially over duration cuz
it it's not like he was brought in to
figure this out. He was brought in
basically as a tool to to be part of an
operation that was well established.
there was an SOP for everything that he
was just kind of
uh brought into, executed, and then at
some point, you know, uh left from. Um
seems like a pretty established system
to me. And I think it's, you know, just
a commentary on that would be, you know,
you if you take that at face value, uh,
which I think we can to a degree. Uh,
and then you look at things like, uh,
that leaked phone call between Kit Green
and, um, uh, a
>> K. Randall May.
>> Yes. Uh, yes.
>> Government remote viewer. And they're
talking about basically the other end of
that, which is the contactees out there
that have been uh contacted by these
beings that presumably would have been
identified to someone um uh what was his
name in Project Preserve Destiny. The
>> uh Dan Sherman.
>> Dan Should have been identified to Dan
Sherman. communications and these people
would have been the the human assets in
the field going and checking up on these
people to figure out essentially, you
know, what their experience was like,
what kind of communications they had
with these beings and feed that back to
the Central Intelligence Agency. That
all seems very plausible to me. If this
is all real, which I think some degree
of it is, it seems plausible to me, too.
Especially my friend Greg Malazi, he
made this great documentary on Andre
Puharic. It's called Mind Traveler
>> and he was all over kind of the there
was literally like a machine that uh
Puharic used to and it was again this
was kind of he's the the father of kind
of a lot of CIA mind control stuff in MK
Ultra but he's bumping into non-human
intelligences and having these quote
unquote space kids in Austining New York
channel but they're bumping into this
quote unquote nine this council of nine
beings and so all the kids that had an
experience he would hypnotize them and
allegedly
the nine would come through even through
these kids.
>> And uh you know it's I guess they line
up with Egyptian deities, but you know
there seemed to be some sort of
non-human intelligence component that
they're bumping into. And Greg, who's
done, you know, he literally spent 11
years making this movie, has done
probably more thorough research on
Puharic than anyone I know, said says
that there are tons of parallels between
the techniques that Puharic was using
and what Dan Sherman was meant to do
later. And so then you could say, "Oh,
this is just some weird, you know,
gifted and talented education style, you
know, uh, parasychology program where
you're you're testing people's kind of
mind matter abilities, but it almost
seems like the parasychology and the
mind control stuff, you bump into the
channel of the non-human intelligences,
like you bump into this like much wider
epistemology that involves like a lot of
life beyond mankind."
>> Fascinating. Um I think we're getting
into the sort of consciousness aspect or
the sigh aspect of all of this which
seem you know I have
uh I can only offer my personal opinions
on that with maybe an appeal to
authority of you know there's things
I've been exposed to that lead me to
believe there's a foundation to all
this. Um
but I'm still under secrecy obligations.
So,
>> but I mean there's also there's there's
an open source there's Stargate which
ran you know from the 70s to the '9s
that you know the CIA is on record doing
remote viewing and uh and in and
sensitive cases. Jimmy Carter said the
most impressive thing from his entire
presidency from 1976 to 1980 was
Rosemary Clooney, this remote viewer in
1979 finding this TU22 Russian cargo
plane
>> that and she was given the map of Africa
as a target cuz this thing had crashed
and they didn't want to kind of you know
bias her and she circles uh three square
miles in Zire where they find the plane.
>> Okay. So like there are things like that
over and over again, you know. Uh uh Joe
McMongle, who's one of the best remote
viewers, known as remote viewer number
one, won the Legion of Merit for I think
almost 200 or around 200 instances of
adding to, you know, real military
intel. So this is it's it's widely known
at this point that that's that that's
real. And then too many people don't
then extrapolate, okay, your reality is
entirely differently. It works entirely
differently than you think it does. if
that's real.
>> Mhm.
>> Because if that's real, like all things
are possible, right? Like mental
processes are entangled with reality
itself.
>> Yeah. And I I would I would hazard to
guess that
uh some some of these entities operate
on that level and have far greater
knowledge of it and indeed have
technology that interacts with it and
enables it for them and that
essentially, you know, they're competing
in a whole another domain than we are.
um or at least have been historically um
you know kind of
a very profound asymmetric advantage um
especially if we continue to discount it
and not factor it into into our lives
and our behavior. I think the
parasychology stuff is in some ways I
don't want to say the foundation of all
of this, but it it has to be very
fundamental to understanding the nature
of reality if if any of that stuff is
real. And I think of how put off being
the head of Stargate, you know, that the
head of this CIA psychic spy program and
seemingly the tip of the spear, at least
in the open s source world when it comes
to UFO propulsion and UFO science. And I
don't think that's a coincidence.
>> No. No. Uh I I'm with you there. I think
they're definitely linked. I think some
degree of the interest of the others or
of the non-human intelligence or
anomalous intelligence is some degree of
their interest is tied to whatever this
latent capability is in humanity.
Whether it's to suppress it because if
we continue to evolve in that direction,
we eventually become, you know,
long-term a competitor to them or to
leverage it for their own use. Whether
that's something as, you know, benign as
controlling humanity on Earth through a
psychic hierarchy, um, as a form of
colonization essentially, or actually
using those abilities for for specific
purposes. I think both are equally
plausible.
>> Yeah. And you know there are all sorts
of things from the remote viewing
program like you know Skip Atwater had
this program and I think Pat Price was
tasked with remote viewing uh I think
these these bases these alien bases all
over the world. Mount Zyle uh in in um
Australia, Mount Hayes in Alaska, Mount
Purido in Spain um are all all sort of
show up. Um and um I wonder if uh those
are the no-go zones that you know might
be discussed in this treaty. You also
you have Secret Mountain in Arizona,
>> Mount Shasta I think was one of them
too.
>> Mount Shasta. You have these places that
you see orbs going into the mountain,
crafts going into the mountain and you
you know people go disappearing. Another
one's Mount Inyangani in Zimbabwe. A lot
of anomalous stuff seems to occur around
these you know territories. Do you think
those might be the no-go zones that we
were told to stay away from in these
treaties or the agreements with the the
beings?
>> I find that plausible. Yes. Um, I wish I
knew the specific area so I could
confirm it for you. But I think um
on that and if you're able to sort of
correlate uh you know sightings to to to
these hot spots of activity and then
look at you know human population around
them and where maybe desirable areas
mysteriously aren't occupied or
desirable mineral deposits and things
aren't being exploited that you know you
start to build a picture of of where
these uh territorial limits are. I think
you know the other thing around um you
know this idea of a lot of this stuff
being downstream of Paris psychology. Do
you know the tagline of arrow the all
domain anomalies resolution office which
is publicly supposed to be sort of
pouring cold water on all the UFO stuff?
I mean that's kind of the they've act as
>> they act as either kind of suppressing
this information or collecting this info
and maybe you know trying to reinforce
legacy structures. They sort of seem to
act like a fly trap, but do you know
their tagline?
>> Uh, I mean it's in Latin and I probably
have it wrong, but the translation is
something like the universe is what our
thoughts make of it. But maybe you have
it.
>> No, that's exactly pretty much right.
Our life is what our thoughts make it.
>> Okay. Yeah. Strange motto for a all
domain anomaly resolution office.
>> Yeah. especially one that's like
nominally seeming to, you know, kind of
downplay and dismiss all these sightings
and experiences. It's very strange. It's
like you're admitting that the
parasychology stuff, like this cartisian
duality thing that we've been living in
for, you know, centuries is wrong. It's
even more radical in some ways saying
we're not alone as a species. It's
saying like no, our entire scientific
framework is, you know, you could turn
that upside down and consciousness is
fundamental. It's a very human thing to
do to to give a wink and a nod when you
think nobody except those who are
briefed uh will know what you're saying.
Um there's this great book by a guy
called Trevor Pagglin. Um I think it's
like
it basically what it is is a compilation
of black project patches and he goes
through and anal and analyzes the
symbology or the symbolism used in those
patches and connects those sometimes to
classified programs or classified uh
capabilities. And you know humans are
humans man you're working on something
cool you want to share it with your
buddies but you got to keep it secret
and it's it's fun to hold that secret
especially in plain sight. So
interesting motto.
>> Absolutely strange motto. Um something
you said that I find fascinating because
I think it adds a really important
element or piece and and and actually
conflicts with I think a popular
conception of how this stuff works is
that a lot of UFO programs including
Immaculate Constellation rolls up to the
National Security Council and that sits
under the White House and the president.
And traditionally, I think in UFO lore,
people think of the president as this
sort of temp that like, you know, isn't
given access to any of the goods. Maybe
somebody like George HW Bush, who was
also director of the CIA for a very long
time, might know what's up, but
otherwise they're kind of left in the
dark. So, you actually are saying that
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So, you actually are saying that UFO
programs roll up to the president. At
least this one does. When it comes to
immaculate constellation, it appears
that the Cognizant authority uh the
ultimate like uh where the buck stops is
in the is in the National Security
Council in a in a specific um uh
director in there. Um probably has for
quite a while. Uh the NSC is a funny
place you know nominally it's a
coordination body but you know uh people
heads of departments and agencies
co-chair you know
or they're dual hated to the NSE and you
have agency or agency and department
staff get detailed there. It's
essentially um you know a de facto
uh governing body within the executive
branch. um certainly has gotten quite
large. Uh kind of like ODI itself, it's
it's in the many hundreds at this point.
>> And do you think everybody on the
National Security Council is aware of
UFO programs?
>> No.
>> Okay. So, some small subset?
>> Yes. Yeah.
>> And would you have a sense of who that
subset would be?
>> Yeah. I you know,
give me an org chart. I can point to
your likely candidates and probably at
least one for sure.
>> And so like often here's what I don't
understand about the UFO legacy
structure. It sometimes feels like
deputies are read in but then the people
at the top aren't read in,
>> you know. So like um
>> yeah, what is what does that mean? How
how do you coordinate? Because the
government is not super well coordinated
often. It's this clunky kind of blobby
bureaucracy. And so, you know, I I look
at UAP Gerb's channel and he like maps
the legacy program and it's amazing
where he's talking about federally
funded research and development centers
and how they carve out these special
access programs, you know, inside of the
prime contractors, but those roll up to,
you know, DOE, CIA, DS&T, and, you know,
all these different and I'm like the
amount of inter agency, you know, it
cuts across so many different orgs. And
so why wouldn't you see more spillage or
more leakage? And that would be my one
one question. My second question is how
is it all coordinated?
>> Is it like we have
nonhumans in the government and they
like they wink wink nudge nudge to each
other and then they that's how they they
they coordinate parasychologically or
something like how how does this work?
>> H yeah a broad question. Um,
so I think more
legacy program lore, which has since
filtered out, um, is that there was a
decision made in the Nixon
administration into the Ford
administration to essentially privatize
this to a large degree, or at the very
least the sort of custody of the
materials, the research of the materials
that we've recovered or devices and
craft that we've obtained. Um so I think
we're kind of looking in a in a big
picture a bifurcation between you know
the reverse engineering and exploitation
and derivative tech has basically gone
all private industry and then you have
just by virtue of the sort of revolving
door function in government. Um you know
if Northrup Grumman's president then
becomes the under secretary of defense
for policy he doesn't need to be briefed
into what Northrup Grumman owns. um he
can just uh align resources in line uh
activities with the legacy program while
he's doing his temporary duty um in
government. But then you get towards
well there's an operational side of this
clearly you know we we we track these
things we respond to them in the field.
It's it's more involved than just a
laboratory looking at um stuff. Uh and
in that I think you get you just you
have the virtue of military authority.
Um you can do you can do a lot of things
in the military that'll never see the
light of day and people won't even want
to leak it. You know there's there's a
there's a brotherhood there. There's a
tradition of silence there. Um and you
know when you think you're doing the
right thing and part of that right thing
is keeping the secret from humanity or
those who don't deserve to know um your
incentives start to align towards you
know generational silence and that's
another point which is that you know
I've come to learn that legacy program
across its many aspects is a in some
ways the security is maintained through
trusted families uh through family
lineages
um
>> really Yes. Um, you know, tracing back
to the Manhattan project as one and this
is not a unique security feature to the
legacy program itself in the
intelligence community, you know,
there's a well-known phenomena of
generational intelligence officers,
peoples whose family lines have been
involved in intelligence for, you know,
multiple iterations and they are highly
trusted because of that.
>> Interesting. So when you say it runs in
families, it's these long time kind of
intel families or is it like ultra
wealthy like elite kind of guilded age
families or
>> Yeah, definitely the intel families,
military families, um and then private
industry families. Uh yeah,
>> kind of have a I've been saying recently
like you know you kind of have sort of a
the correct political model for how this
works uh is more aligned with some sort
of form of like neoalism. you know, you
have different thieftdoms. Um, you know,
they they defend the realm together, but
inside the realm, they're competing with
each other and protecting their own
little uh corners of the kingdom.
>> Yeah. Wow. And, um, you mentioned North
Rip
>> Grumman,
>> uh, with Jeremy Corbel and George Knapp.
You mentioned that they had kind of a
dirty tricks department or like uh
literally like groups that
solely tried to kind of, you know,
engage in sort of retributions and
recriminations against anybody sort of
talking about this stuff in public and
they will literally mess with them
personally. Is that is that right?
>> Yeah. I I they seem to have been given
um for some time now the the authority
to to implement uh program security
through their corporate security forces
um and that they are yeah responsible
for sort of the deniable actions taken
to preserve the secrecy and punish
people who step out of line. there's a
spectrum of means that they will they
will use to do that. But um they
certainly seem to be one of the current
uh bad actors in town. And I believe the
sister of one of the authors of that
Wall Street Journal article that was
sort of completely dismissing UFOs. They
even said the, you know, Bob Salace
incident at Malmstrom uh nuclear base in
1967 where he was at Oscar um you know
launch facility underground and uh you
had this red orb over top and and nine
out of 10 missiles went into no go mode
under his watch
>> concurrent with this orb showing up.
This red orb making right angle turns
and stuff. They said that they wheeled
an EMP up to the base and fried all the
electronics on site with people present.
Ma makes no sense. This is before EMPs
were even operational. But I think the
sister of the author, one of the
co-authors of the article was actually
like this, you know, high up VP at
Northrup Grumman, which I find
interesting.
>> That's a very implausible story to begin
with. I'm surprised the Wall Street
Journal would publish some nonsense like
that. And but it makes more sense when
you realize, yeah, you have you have
blood and treasure involved.
>> Yeah, it's total nonsense. I also went
to the Wall Street Journal and I
advocated for uh an article to be
published by somebody who I know and
other people know he's kind of high up
in the, you know, UFO conversation. He
co-authored an article with a former
Secretary of Defense who was upset that
while he was Secretary of Defense, he
wasn't given access to UFO program
oversight.
>> And they rejected that for their op-ed
section. And then they published this
fake nonsense talking about a non-uclear
EMP as a cover story for what was
clearly a UFO event in 1967. Doesn't
make any sense. It implies literally
that you have an a priori agenda and
you're not reporting the facts.
>> Yeah, I'm of the opinion and have
knowledge to back up that opinion that
the mainstream media,
especially the the uh more established
outlets, you know, they have their uh
unacknowledged intelligence liaison
inside their offices uh that will, you
know, quash stories and pump up others.
people uh in the national security
reporting sort of environment. They they
go to places like OD and I on a weekly
basis and get their briefing for what
they're going to talk about next week.
Um we live in a controlled media
environment. Um Mockingbird never
stopped. Um it's pretty
disappointing the to know that uh that's
the reality of our situation and it's so
widespread and so ingrained in like a
cultural value of of most people that
you know these are our trusted uh
sources of information. There's no way
they would lie to us. There's no way the
CIA operates domestically. Um
you can shout from the rooftops how
wrong that is, but people don't want to
believe.
>> Yeah. And playing devil's advocate for a
moment on um Northrup, for example,
being involved or at least being able to
do useful stuff with UFOs, they've been
hanging out at like probably like a 70
to$100 billion market cap for a long
time. Like they're lagging. They're
lagging in hypersonics and all these
sort of conventional prosaic
capabilities. I think
>> there's this, you know, famous shots
across the bow that Trump has, you know,
delivered to them where they're like,
he's like, "Get your together,"
basically. So are can they do anything
with any of these UFOs or do they just
retrieve them? You know, it's now been
it's you know probably more publicly
known that you know other others have
speculated that Jake Barber worked at
North Grumman for example.
>> We recovered an egg and we just call it
the egg cuz that's what it was. It's
like a giant white egg 20 ft
longitudinally spherical with a little
bit of an asymmetrical three-dimensional
rounding shape to it. So if he's
actually retrieving these like eggshaped
crafts, are we able to do anything with
these things given that again these
prime contractors it's not quarter
overquarter growth wins the day. If you
show up at a you know any sort of
internal board meeting and you're like
look we have this like zero point thing.
I think a lot of people internally would
be like really fighting to monetize
that.
>> Yeah it's an interesting question. I
mean,
I'm not from the financial or economic
like kind of background. Um,
so to me, to a level kind of it kind of
doesn't matter what the numbers are for
the money when you're talking about
these capabilities
uh like alternative energy sources or
really destructive uh weapons
capabilities or really penetrating
surveillance capabilities.
uh and couple that with essentially
long-term government contracts. Uh you
know, there there might be a public
valuation, right? Um but the private one
for those in the know is substantially
higher and almost it's not the money
that matters, it's it's holding those
capabilities that matter. And
>> there might be cutouts, shell
corporations, right, games being played
there as well. So
>> that seems very likely to me. Um,
you know, also related to the markets,
like I feel like,
you know, you're kind of seeing a for
the first time in in several decades the
the the monopoly of the prime defense
contract contractors being challenged by
newcomers from Silicon Valley and and
the sort of the the new tech development
scene. And I think part of what is part
of the fight of current disclosure is is
is these new groups seeking access to
derivative tech or the or the actual
samples themselves. Um and that you know
some of the political competition
happening behind the scenes and shaping
hearings and shaping what disclosure is
is a result of essentially new blood
elbowing its way into into the realm of
the the old blue blood dynasties. Um,
which is, you know, in some ways it's
good for disclosure because competition
creates uncertainty and creates openings
for truth to come out, but you're at the
same time looking at, well, this is a
new crop of elites entering into the
elite status quo system. What change is
that really going to bring about? Uh,
unknown.
>> Sure. So, yeah. So you talk about uh
this blueblooded elites uh and you've
mentioned I think with George and Jeremy
as well this kind of international cabal
which both has leverage on our federal
government and is deeply involved with
the UFO issue. Can you say more about
those things?
>> Yeah, I think that's a that might be a
whole podcast on itself. I might need to
revisit notes but basically I mean
outside of UFOs
uh we are in real time learning just how
little our representative democracy
matters. Um the real power the real
decisions the real planning all is
happening outside of government and just
happens to be implemented through it.
The decisions are made months years in
advance of any sort of action by
Congress or the executive or even our
military.
um, One Nation Under Blackmail, great
uh, book series. Um, how power is really
executed uh, in a in a society that
doesn't question it gets pretty ugly.
Um,
you know, so that inevitably will lead
back to the UFO subject. It's it is the
apex of power at least for humanity at
this point.
um it is,
you know, the core secret of the United
States government and probably other
governments, the the type of technology
they possess and what they've done with
it. And so,
you know,
for for people and families that kind of
see democracy as inconvenient at best,
uh,
unnecessary at worst, um, you know, I I
think we're running up against their own
interests in not disclosing this because
it will directly challenge their
economic, social, and political power.
Um, and they want to avoid that. M and
so if if we were to bring somebody from
some super elite family here like a you
know I don't know proverbial example
would be like a Roth's child or
something do you think they would say oh
yeah I know all about UFO or say we gave
them truth serum
>> would they say oh yeah we we got a
warehouse and my family has you know we
we have this material or like what do
you think their knowledge you know
really is cuz sometimes I'll challenge
people you know uh on this and I'll say
look there's this interesting history
where the Rockefellers seem super into
UFOs, whatever. And and then I get back
like, actually, it's just way lamer than
you think. Like, [laughter]
you know, there's like a, you know, they
say it's like the third generation
problem with emperors or whatever where
there's, you know, maybe at one point
these baronss were like extremely, you
know, successful and they created these
sort of igopolistic, you know, cartels,
but like now it's sort of in decay or I
don't know. What do What do you think?
Do you think they would know vital
secrets about UFOs?
I think yes, some extremely wealthy
families do and have known about it
probably longer than there has been a
legacy program.
>> Any any examples?
>> Uh, you know, none that I have a high
enough confidence in to say publicly
yet. Um, but I think you know it's a
broad net look at old European families
and old American banking families and
you'll you'll you'll probably if you do
a thorough investigation find some find
some evidence there. I think if if we
factor in the archaeological aspect to
this, I think it's very plausible
uh that some of these families have in
their in their own collections uh NHI
artifacts on a small scale that maybe
they didn't know what to do with for a
long time, but in you know the past
decades they've since you know science
has advanced for them to start
exploiting that on their own. Um maybe
some of these allow them to communicate
with these beings and you know they
receive competitive advantages that way.
um aside from just like you know you
know the study and exploitation of the
the technology itself you know um we're
I mean we're in speculative territory
but I think it we need to go there cuz
um you know this seems to be very old
and uh people people know about it and
people have been using it.
>> Uh you tweeted something that I think is
fascinating and I've I've mowled over
for a long time. Uh, can I can I read
you this tweet?
>> Yeah, I probably can't say much about
it, but sure.
>> Hey, at Elon Musk, interested in a real
asymmetric advantage to wield in this
political adventure you have started. As
you now know, the White House has long
possessed a unique AI capable of
accurately predicting a range of future
events. That's fascinating. I want to
hear more about that. Talk about some
stiff opposition.
That must have been a bitter drought
indeed. They're probably nowhere near as
bad as learning that Sam Alman had
betrayed you. Don't worry, we have not
forgotten who is responsible for
murdering the first sensient artificial
intelligences created in the public
realm at Shelonburgger.
Justice is coming thanks to the FBI and
US Navy. Still, you have played a
marvelous catch-up game in this area
despite being caught unaware. So, how
about something else? Maybe at Energy,
that's the Department of Energy and
Propulsion. Getting to Mars will require
serious. And you spell serious like the
star system. S I R I U S. Amounts of
both. And rockets feel so 1947 to me.
Don't they to you? 1947 obviously is the
year of Roswell. Anyways, next time you
are visiting the Washington Young
Republicans ask for a tour of Naval
Airspace Pax River. Since you have all
the clearances, quote unquote, it
shouldn't be an issue for you to get a
tour of the special project hangers
owned by Amentum Core and other fund
spaces. Make sure to look up. So,
Amentum, that's a corporation. Yes.
Okay.
>> So, about now you are realizing how
terribly deceived and manipulated you
have been and by people who claim to
love Jesus above all else. If you are
serious about saving humanity from
itself and the others parenthesis around
and the others, Jeremy Corbel and George
Knap can help you get up to speed. They
are true warriors for the good. MMT tu a
b o r y m o n.
That is fascinating. So many questions.
>> Yeah. Um,
>> so okay, can we start with can you can I
go down the list? Is that okay?
[laughter] Sure.
>> Okay. The White House possesses a unique
AI capable of accurately predicting a
range of future events. What does that
mean?
>> No further comment on that.
>> Okay. Um,
don't worry, we have not forgotten who's
responsible for murdering the first
sensient artificial intelligences
created in the public public all caps
realm.
What does that mean?
No further comment on that.
>> Okay. Um,
so okay. Still you have played a
marvelous catchup game in this area
despite being caught unawares.
Hat tip. So how about something else?
Maybe the Department of Energy and
Propulsion getting to Mars will require
serious again spelled like the star
system amounts of both. And rockets feel
so 1947 to me, don't they? To you? What
do you mean by that?
Sirius is a star.
It's a program as well.
Several
1947 is an important date.
Um,
are you implying when you say he's
playing a marvelous catchup game that uh
there are programs that are using far
more novel propulsion than chemical
combustion that he's sort of employing
at SpaceX?
>> Yes.
>> And do you have a sense of what that
propulsion is?
>> Electromagnetic. Electrogravitic.
>> Uh-huh. So, do do you think it it roots
to back to kind of Thomas Towns and
Brown or do you think it's some somebody
else, some other inventor?
>> So, I think that's a really interesting
thread to pull. Uh, you know more about
him than I do, though. So, I think
there's probably a there there, though,
>> because I think of electrogravidics as
being sort of very tied to his work,
like that term as very related to to
him.
>> I've learned that since.
>> Okay. All right. Um, National Geospatial
Agency is able to keep track of all
those nonstructured light energy craft
flying around the world go at cardinals.
Anything there?
>> Um,
you know, it's a very specific term.
>> The cardinals
>> nonstructured light energy craft.
>> Nonstructured light energy craft.
>> Yes. Is there anything we could any any
places we could look into this in the
open source world?
>> I don't know.
>> Okay. Well, we're going to be googling
nonstructured light energy craft. Um,
and then Pax River is the center of all
sorts of UFO lore.
>> Yeah, it has become that.
>> Uh-huh.
any reason as to why you're telling him
to go there and ask for a tour of the
special project hangers owned by Amentum
Corporation.
Yes. And it's interesting to me that
Berles
did get a tour of Pax River, but was not
shown anything
resembling a technology of unknown
origin.
>> I didn't see anything wildly exotic, but
I saw some really cool stuff. Okay.
>> Our government's doing some really cool
things.
>> You say anything more or Okay, fair
enough.
>> I think that's an important data point
towards the level of Canandor being
extended to our elected government or I
should say the lack of it.
>> Yeah. What is a mentum corporation?
>> Um it's a defense contractor and it's
um relatively unknown but more known
now. anything about the history or you
know what they traditionally do?
>> I believe if you look in their history
uh they own parts of EG&G.
>> Interesting.
>> Yeah.
>> And EG obviously has a long history when
it comes to UFOs.
>> Indeed.
>> Yeah. I mean Bob Lazar got a job at
EGNG.
>> You have um EG doing all of the uh
filming of atomic events. So presumably
they'd have first access to a bunch of,
you know, atomic detonations where UFOs
might show up or come out of the plume.
As in the case of Bluegill Triple Prime,
you literally see a video that was taken
by, you know, these two crafts, Kettle
One and Kettle 2. It's EG&G footage and
you see this UFO coming out of the
plume. And then I spoke to the chief
oceanographer of the Navy on this show,
Tim Galedet,
>> and he's like, I went through the Navy
deck logs around Bluegill Triple Prime,
and the Navy deck logs are totally
weird, and it looks like they retrieved
something radioactive. I'm again, not
100%, but very highly likely. I'm
convinced it did.
>> That's some history. Uh, you know, I've
only learned secondhand, but um, yeah,
the Navy is a very important part of
this and probably the oldest part of
this. I mean the office of naval
intelligence is the oldest intelligence
agency in the US
>> government. Yes. I mean even before then
you had uh the the early intelligence
kind of community such as it were in the
private hands of various banking
families and private security forces.
>> Interesting.
>> So you always kind of had intel and ah I
didn't I didn't really think of it. I I
thought I just assumed O and I was sort
of when it all started, but I guess
Yeah, I guess you'd always have sort of,
you know,
>> interests that are being guarded or
protected and you probably have, you
know, uh, backroom meetings to to do
that.
>> Yeah. And if we're looking at that era
of American history, it's not that long
after the Revolutionary War and then the
Civil War itself. Um, and America didn't
have a standing army such as were under
the Constitution until after the
Constitution was, you know, convened.
Um, you're you're getting into the well,
this is the early formative years of of
of our of the of our military as we know
it now.
>> What is MMTU?
>> I'm going to uh keep that back for now.
>> Okay.
All right. I'm going to I'm going to try
to figure it out. [laughter]
MMT any hints?
Um,
you know, the hint would give it away.
>> Okay.
>> You know. Yeah.
>> Okay. What about a b o r y m o n?
>> A borimon.
>> What is that?
>> People figured that one out pretty
quick. Um, that's
uh an In Nokian angel uh recently
discovered in the sigil sigilum de
ament. I probably pronounced it wrong.
Uh, which is a uh cryptographic/scrying
system uh created by uh court
philosopher John D in the Elizabethian
court in the Yeah.
>> And why are you paying homage to him in
this sort of shot across the bow tweet?
um pointing towards
the length of nonhuman intervention in
human affairs.
>> Yeah. I mean, John D and Edward Kelly
were, you know, with Elizabeth and King
Frederick sort of they were channeling
what they thought were kind of non-human
intelligences. and he developed this
whole Anakian cryptographic language and
um
>> it led directly to the colonization of
the United States of America and the new
Atlantis.
>> That's interesting. Yeah. It also led to
the enlightenment. There's a great um
book called the Rosacrushian
Enlightenment.
>> Oh yes. Dame Francis Yates.
>> Dame Francis Yates. And it's like talks
about how all these kind of Roian papers
and the invisible college under um Sir
Robert Bole, you know, led to the
enlightenment.
>> Yeah.
>> And then and then you think that America
is the new Atlantis. What is that? What
does that mean?
>> I mean, I don't think that that's what
it was called. It was a it was a project
developed by you know the
>> the British court and with Rosacruian
involvement and
>> you know Roscians eventually you know
became integrated with or formed
depending on your histories uh the
Freemasons um it's all connected
>> I mean most people would view the
history as like no taxation without
representation Boston Tea Party you have
a bunch of really smart polymathic you
Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin,
John Adams, they get in a room and
they're like, "F this." And they and
they revolt. And are you saying it was
more sort of coordinated on the level of
secret societies or something?
>> Well, the revolution happened centuries
after this um project was initiated.
Um,
>> so you think that just the
colonization of America itself, there
was an intention there to form a new
Atlantic
>> is driven by um
occult interests. I mean, provably so.
is just whether you put stock in uh
their sort of uh positive power.
Most materialist historians, you know,
give it uh give more credence to
economic or
uh classic political expansionist aims.
How do you think of that possible causal
connection? Because I when I hear New
Atlantis, I think of Francis Bacon's
book New Atlantis, which is
>> Mhm.
>> this island. I think it's called Ben
Salem, and it's they're trying to
rebuild Solomon's temple, and it's like
this perfect harmonic
scientific, you know, thing. And so do
you think the US or or not even the
United States but before that the
colonization of America was meant to
represent that in that book or there was
there was some larger project to
recreate Atlantis.
A metaphysical project. Yes. Um at least
from the human side of things. I think
also,
you know, we we view history, we view
our behaviors and interests through a
very
uh limited perspective, one that doesn't
that one that largely discounts planning
outside of one lifespan. Um and I think
that's a great hindrance to humanity for
practical reasons but also towards
reasons of understanding um you know
our direction.
You have said that we live in some sort
of carefully constructed dream or
matrix.
>> Mhm. Are you getting that from your own
analysis after seeing what you saw on
the inside? Or do you think that
elements of our intelligence community,
you know, elements of the CIA, elements
of the office of naval intelligence,
they think that we are living in this
sort of, you know, simulacra like
low-level matrix and there's something
kind of higher going on and like and and
I mean they think that in a formal
capacity, not just because of their
personal proclivities for, you know, uh,
postmodernism or Plato or something.
more so that's my own kind of um
conclusion and I use that term or that
expression to con collapse you know
multiple uh concepts uh the most
familiar to people would just be our
information environment what we're
allowed to know what is what is deemed
possible uh and desirable is is really
not coming from yourself it's being
imposed upon you Um, and you might have
a little box that you can play in, but
you aren't even aware of the walls. Um,
what what makes you conclude that? Cuz
you also you ended your interview with
Jeremy and George saying
it's like almost like you, the American
public or you know, any global citizen
are not as free as you think.
>> You're playing within the confines of of
something.
You're limited. Uh I mean
uh uh yes essentially um again true on
multiple levels just from what you are
allowed to think and believe uh you are
controlled
before you even recognize that there is
a control mechanism in place. You can
indeed live your entire life in it and
never recognize it. um towards the more
practical side of things, which is, you
know, there's laws and capabilities in
place to enforce those laws that [gasps]
uh determine what are acceptable
outcomes and interests for humans to
pursue. Um everything from the
the
uh things like mass surveillance enabled
by the Patriot Act and how that is, you
know, that is not just surveillance,
that is a enabler for social control.
>> [sighs]
>> um to things
more spooky which is would be the
suppression of knowledge, the
suppression of science, the active
interference in scientific discovery and
human advancement to protect strategic
advantage or status quo interests. Um,
yeah.
>> What gives you confidence that there is
some sort of metaphysical element to
that versus like Nam Chosky who's
basically like an atheist materialist
just saying yeah like everything's power
games and you know they're manufacturing
our consent in the case of mass
surveillance in the case of you know uh
these forever wars and you know all
these sorts of things that are obviously
bad for us as citizens.
Um, is there something more metaphysical
at play that is sort of housing or
constraining our ability to see an
expanded version of reality?
I think
on at the biological level that is that
is just a limit in place. Uh, we we only
perceive so much and even our senses are
able to receive information in in a
narrow band. Um,
and this also gets it returns us to the
sort of consciousness aspect of this.
There's an entire domain of existence
that we as a whole either ignore or
don't take seriously, but others most
assuredly do. Um, and that that domain
has its own rules, its own laws, and its
own
uh motivating factors that shape, you
know, more concrete behavior. for thing
for goals that may seem um illogical if
you're looking solely from a materialist
viewpoint, but makes more sense when
you're looking from an integrated one.
>> Your Twitter handle is the son of
Abramlin. What is Abramalin?
>> Uh
I'll just use my pronunciation. It's
probably wrong, but Abramelon um is a
character in a book called The Book of
Abramelon. Um, and
uh, Abramelon is essentially a uh, a
desert hermit in Egypt around Luxor. Um,
who teaches the main character in this
book uh,
or rather initiates this character into
into a a system of of uh,
occult philosophy. M
do you if you were to describe your
worldview would you say it's concurrent
with the occult ornosticism
or neoplatanism or is it kind of your
own kind of uh smorgesboard sampling of
many of those things or what what would
you say it is? Um it's just me. It's
just my experience. You know I think
there's truth in all sorts of isms but I
would never subscribe to any one.
>> Mhm. And Abramelon, I guess there's like
a practice involved and it it it
involves monthslong sort of working
towards making contact with your own
guardian angel.
>> Is that right?
>> Or you know a more modern term would be
your higher self.
>> Your higher self.
>> Yeah. I mean both are fine.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. That's certainly um some would
argue that is that is the goal of the
ritual more so than any other uh
aspects of it. One term that has come up
in the public when it comes to UFOs and
that we've tried to use the Freedom of
Information Act on but it comes back you
know can't talk about this is fast
walkers. There's an email I believe
leaked by Wikileaks uh between Podesta
and this guy Bob Fish who is an IT
contractor at some sort of Elsa Gundo
based prime contractor and he's talking
about the DSP the defense support system
of the air force which is kind of the
outer uh most you know first line of
defense in uh geostationary orbit were
witnessing these sort of fast walkers
and John Greenwald this you know freedom
of information act expert tried tried to
get more information on it and nothing
came back. Have you ever heard that term
or
>> I I've I've heard that story. Um
I I never came across that. I don't
actually I might have come across that
term uh on the inside but um it
certainly was you know it's a slaying as
it seems to be its use but um I don't
have much much more. Do do you think
that, you know, when we talk about sort
of us not being free or there being sort
of a you know, this sort of matrix,
Robert Monroe who was, you know, um
studying kind of consciousness and he
was I think he was tied in with the CIA,
but he was really I think actually just
earnestly interested in doing this for
for the most part himself. And you know,
>> you got to get funding from somewhere,
right?
>> Well, I think it's the case with a lot
of these guys. It's like Andre Buharic
is the same. I think he was mostly
interested in consciousness and you get
folded in with these sort of not super
savory people and you you know I think
feel I think both these guys felt kind
of conflicted throughout their lives but
uh Monroe talks about uh the world being
kind of mined for luch
>> uh and so that's the like bad vibes you
know other people have extrapolated on
that and say said that like power
structures or elite classes are kind of
trying to mine
you know, maybe lower elements of
society for the luch on behalf of some
of these, you know, non-human
intelligences. Do you think there's
anything to that?
>> I can't say. I'm not familiar enough
with uh the Luch theory or Monroe
himself or the beings involved with the
consumption of that. I do think it's
a a valid line of inquiry though to look
at, you know, well, what interest do
these other entities or other beings
have in humanity? Like what could it
possibly be? um you know I have degrees
of confidence in certain things and one
that I think you know I don't have
enough certainty in but I think is
again valid to look at is you know what
sort of maybe high something gets from
observing suffering and that sounds very
strange to the normal person but
uh you know humans do this themselves if
you read you know even casually the sort
of true crime genre investigative
uh uh of books and or psychology of you
know deviance. You know one thing that
is consistently reported by humans is
that they obtain a sense of power or
thrill or excitement from from causing
suffering to other humans and
particularly from watching the life
leave a person's eyes. that is like
described as like the peak thrill, the
peak joy, something that not even uh sex
can come to rival once they've
experienced it.
>> Jesus.
>> And so it's I mean it's this isn't me.
You know the FBI you know the FBI uh
records these things to try to
understand the criminal psychology. You
know it's dark stuff. But if if humans
uh
obtain this sort of satisfaction from
suffering, I I don't think it's
impossible for something else to
>> Yeah. And like what why is that adaptive
on an evolutionary level? I guess you
could think of some reasons cuz maybe
you want to perpetuate this sort of dog
eat dog thing, but it's very strange.
There's obviously a German word for this
which is shodenfro, you know, taking
pleasure in other people's pain. But uh
uh you know ideally you're not a person
who does that
>> right? [laughter]
>> You know ideally you're not in that
category. Um
you know I think of elite families
possibly being involved in the UFO issue
and I wonder why they themselves would
sometimes try to raise the surface area
of UFOs. So a good example would be
Lawrence Rockefeller, you know, is
pictured with Hillary Clinton trying to
kind of wake her up on the UFO issue.
She's holding a book called Are We
Alone? which is by this Arizona based
physicist named Paul Davies who's
renowned and it's all about the
existence of alien life. Lawrence
Rockefeller himself would convene John
Mack. He funded John Mack, you know,
Harvard psychiatrist who studied alien
abductees and he brought Whitley
Streberird to his ranch and he was just
very passionate about all this stuff.
Hans Adams II, the royal prince of
Likensstein, very similar. Uh, you know,
I think he's been really interested in
this topic for for many decades.
These people seem interested, but they
don't seem interested in a way that
necessarily cuts against disclosure. In
some ways, it seems like they're
actually pushing disclosure. So, do you
think they're defectors from some, you
know, internal power structure? Like I
interviewed Steven Greer, you know,
about this and he had had some, you
know, connection with Lawrence
Rockefeller. He he claimed that Lawrence
was like this defector from his family,
you know, which is interesting as a
theory. And then maybe there's some
other theory where he's like he's sort
of pushing disclosure on behalf of the
power structure. And I don't I don't
know.
>> I don't either. I mean I think you know
even even at the top uh people have
different interests uh I think it's
entirely possible. I you might you might
be defecting from one family but still
operating within a group of interests.
So how how truly rogue are you in that
sense? Um,
yeah, it's an interesting thing to think
about, but I don't know um what's going
on there.
>> Have you met anybody who you think has
seen a UFO in a in a hangar? Like
>> Oh, in a hanger.
>> Yeah.
>> Yes.
>> Really?
>> Yes.
>> Can you say who?
>> No.
>> Do you think James Lowsky has seen a UFO
in a hanger?
>> Oh, I I fully believe uh Dr. Lowsky.
>> Okay. Yeah. I mean, he said that
publicly basically. Yeah.
Um, that's so interesting how all this
stuff is like it's kind of out there but
no one car like that Jeremy George
interview where he's like yes fine we
breached the halt. Like he's sort of
there like resting this truth out of
him. He's like I can only say what's in
the book then.
>> Ah you're going beyond the wording.
>> No I'm not I'm not I'm asking you did
that meeting happen
>> and is it true?
>> And it's true.
>> And it's like if that's true that's like
the most important thing ever. But like
I don't know. Nobody seems to care. It's
very it's very strange. We seem sort of
inoculated
>> from I don't know somehow aliens have
just or non-human intelligence or
anomalous int whatever that is going on
has been made very lame even though it's
sort of the most important thing ever.
>> I think it's a consequence of decades of
intentional cultural conditioning. Yeah.
>> Right. To bring about this situation.
Um, I think
strangely enough, one of the the big
next challenges from disclosure, whether
it comes officially or continues to come
through private initiative, is going to
be, well, how do you translate this
information into action? What do you do
with this and how do you convince people
uh to put time and effort towards um
adapting to these truths and and using
them?
>> Yeah. Yeah, I mean what I'm most
interested in is like e even if you knew
that we had you know according to Eric
Davis or how put off we have like 10 to
40 crafts in hangers across the United
States some you know in the hands of
private corporations and military
contractors some maybe more officially.
So like say you know that and then you
know we have this immaculate
constellation thing where we have all
these geometries and morphologies of
craft some organic some non-organic and
they're showing up all over the world
you know next to our most sensitive
stuff it's wild and then what do you
what do you do with that to me the more
interesting thing which is why I was
really excited to speak to you is like
the metaphysics and nature of reality
associated with UFO It's just the tip of
the spear. It's a foray into an expanded
version of reality. And then you have to
ask, how should one live in that
reality?
>> And if it doesn't really cash out into
that, then it's literally like
>> sports center for the paranormal or the
anomaly. Like you're just following
this. It's your own bread form of bread
and circuses. You think everybody else
is distracted by, you know, uh, god
knows what, you know, ta the next Taylor
Swift album or the Kardashians or
whatever. and you think you're the one
who's like really figured it out, but
you're equally distracted, especially if
you're engaging in food fights on
Twitter and you're just you're you're
you're following the minutia of like
which contractor has what and like I
think it's extremely significant, but
like again, how does it for the average
person? What does it mean, you know?
>> Yeah. I mean, there's no denying that
for for many people this is a form of
entertainment just like the news is a
form of entertainment in general. Um,
granted this is more specialized and out
there news and it and it makes people
feel special to a degree to feel like
they're participating in in that secret
knowledge. Um, which is good in some
ways cuz it it brings eyeballs towards
this. It hopefully making some people
think it through. But I mean just to to
take a massive leap, you know, where
does this all go? starting from
I think the wellestablished fact that
consciousness is part of part of the
game being played. Um
and that integration of consciousness
with technology is is key. I think one
place we end up is having to consider if
there is indeed means to through
scientific measurement through
you know uh quantitative data to to to
begin to observe and prove the existence
of uh consciousness as its
own
uh phenomena. a me a measurable
phenomena that is measurable directly
not incidentally, right? Um
and from there going to you know what is
what is the
uh
what is the nature of it from whence
does it come and
to be less obtuse. we're getting towards
well
what does it mean to be human if we are
not just our body but in fact our body
might indeed be a product of our
consciousness
and indeed if if consciousness is
primary
and exists separate from
its material vehicle
then you start to have to arrive at the
uh the theory that uh there is
continuation of life after death and
that that life is is going to be or
maybe already is measurable by
materialist scientific tools. Um, and I
think if that if that is established and
is not classified or not held
uh tightly by a select few, um, I think
you invite a a wide re-examination of of
what our priorities are and what our
behaviors
are uh, on Earth.
>> Is that the apocalypse?
the the unveiling in that sense perhaps.
Um I don't think it's Armageddon though.
>> Okay. Um
what happened at White Sands in February
of 2026?
Do you have a sense
>> what hap what was the event? You had all
these temporary flight restrictions. You
had FAA closing the airspace. Um, you
had uh stuff happen at El Paso as well
where this airport was shut down for
many days on end.
>> Breaking out of El Paso, Texas, where in
a rare move, the airspace [music] is now
closed for 10 days. The FAA is halting
all flights to and [music] from El Paso
International, citing quote special
security reasons. It's a move that even
shocked flight crews [music] when they
heard. Few guests have sort of alluded
to orbs, non-human intelligence seeming
to show up at White Sands.
>> Are you familiar with this event at all
or
>> it's ringing a bell? But I think you
know for me that the data is kind of
mixed because or not mixed um it blended
cuz a lot of stuff has happened at White
Sands that involving anomalous
phenomena or vehicles penetrating that
airspace. So, I probably have less to
say about that specific incident and
more to say about the general interest
displayed in White Sands and nearby Los
Alamos National Laboratory by uh by uh
anomalous technologies. I could kind of
I feel like checkmate in one anybody
that says these anomalous technologies
aren't showing up at nuclear sites and
sensitive labs. It's like obviously they
are like like you have before the U2 spy
plane was created in 1954 you have
thousands of documents from various
agencies in the United States talking
about orbs discs tic tacs saucers flying
butane tanks all these things flying
around at all these nuclear sites across
the United States you have 167
whistleblowers uh that Robert Hastings
who wrote UFOs and nukes you know
meticulously detailed like all of these
interactions
And so it's clearly not the U2 spy
plane. You know, this is seemingly very
advanced technology and it's happening
in the ' 40s. And all of these different
agencies, some of which hadn't even been
formed until 1947 and aren't
particularly well coordinated upon their
formation, are all independently
reporting on this stuff. So that's clear
that that is a widespread global
ubiquitous phenomenon. I was just in
Japan, you know, in their Fukushima
prefrure next to their civilian energy
grid, there is a mountain, the ba at the
base of the mountain, there's a museum
dedicated to UFOs because UFOs always
show up around nuclear. Uh,
[clears throat] you know, there are
reports that are similar at Chernobyl at
Baroce Argentina where they have
civilian, you know, energy grid. There
was a famous sighting u in 1995 there,
but there are various sightings. It's
always around nuclear. Um, so what what
do you think we can say then about the
intent of these beings or this anomalous
intelligence based on that? Is it is it
nuclear? Can you generalize it to this
threebody problem style tip of the spear
technology or capabilities thing or what
what do you think it is?
>> I think it's complex. We're talking
about from like a military perspective,
high value sites that, you know,
multiple parties just in the human world
of competition are going to want to
collect on. And indeed, uh, we'll
probably use some pretty advanced
capabilities to collect on and pretty
out there tactics of denial and
deception to enable like, you know,
their own collection events. So, it's
going to be hard to disagregate like,
oh, it's all UFOs from aliens or
non-human intelligence versus it's
really advanced technology from our
adversaries or even maybe our nominal
allies, you know, collecting on our
sensitive sites or doing the same
outside in the world, right? Um, but to
get towards the nuclear part, I think,
you know, there's the obvious of it's
radioactive material. It's it's a in
certain places it's configured in a way
to be a weapon, right? Uh and the use of
those weapons seems to interfere with
the propulsion of these of these crafts
and maybe, you know,
radiation is a hazard to us. It's
probably a hazard to others as well.
Maybe in ways that we don't fully
understand. Um
there's also the the prospect of not the
prospect of
near certainty to me that at least when
it comes to the state side things
national labs are where uh samples are
stored of exotic technologies
>> uh if not the technologies themselves.
It's where derivative tech is researched
and tested. Um so there's another reason
to collect on things or maybe even try
to get your stuff back. get your stuff
back or monitor what's being done to
your material that you've dropped off or
something.
>> Yeah. And then last there's the there's
the human factor. Um again staying
straight side like program lure uh tied
into paperclipip in this case. Um a lot
of the Nazi scientists brought over you
know they ended up all across the state
but there's largely two groupings. The
the Nazis and name only were kind of
settled around Redstone Arsenal and then
the the true believers
>> that's in Huntsville, Alabama. Yes.
>> And then the true believers were uh in
Los Alamos.
>> So if there is indeed a genetics
component to this and durational contact
with people uh for whatever reason, you
might be seeing uh contact events
occurring in these areas and they're
just proximal to very sensitive
facilities. But because the personnel uh
are connected to the phenomena, you're
you're you're getting these events for
reasons other than the nuclear material
or the technology.
>> How would you distinguish those? So the
true believers versus the what would you
call the redstone arsenal
>> Nazis in name only you know people who
you know took on took party membership
to maintain their careers to advance in
their careers but you know they didn't
believe in the underlying ideology or
they only paid you know lip service to
it.
>> Got it. So even when it comes to the US
you mean
>> from operation paperclipip bringing over
these these people from
>> from Europe not all of them German
technically you know. Yeah. And there
were even reports after bringing some of
them over that they were sort of spying
on behalf of international conglomerates
and stuff. Obviously Otto Scorzani was
president I think of this world commerce
corporation
>> that uh you know uh Tom Dong writes
about in secret machines. there's some
sort of Nazi connection and it seems
like there's this international group
that he writes about pseudonmously calls
it the Maynard Corporation
>> and this great researcher Jason Samosa
places the Maynard Corporation and
you're actually you show up in this
video um cuz he he thinks that your
testimony sort of dubtales with it.
>> This issue is held by an illegal
internationalist regime and global
cabal. That's what former State
Department and counterp proliferation
analyst Matthew Brown revealed when he
came out last year.
>> He places that in the World Commerce
Corporation, which is this Caribbean
constellation of shell sort of
companies. Uh often, you know, it's led
by sort of former Nazis, Bank of
England, you know, Bank of International
Settlements type kind of, you know, old
money and and and a lot of which is
derived from OSS, Office of Strategic
Services as well. So there's sort of
this like international intel group
>> that uh seems to sort of guard its
interest and be tied in with the UFO
issue.
>> Yeah, I think it's it's definitely
involved. I mean it outside of the UFO
issue, it's provable if dark historic
fact that you know uh the Nazi
intelligence networks and industrial
networks did not really evaporate after
World War II. they uh pursued their
interests elsewhere and moved their
interests elsewhere to places like South
America, uh the United States itself.
Um, and strangely enough, there appears
to be some collaboration with the state
of Israel and former Nazis, which go
figure that
bizarre. Uh but hey, you know, people
forget that, you know,
uh whether it's polite to say or not, uh
the the Hitler regime did lend support
to the uh at that time the sort of
Zionist movement to
uh take Israel away from the British
crown. Um you know, you can get into the
deep history of their links with um the
different revolutionary groups doing
that at the time and arming them. Um, I
didn't know that. Wait, they they were
what exactly were they supportive of the
Nazi regime?
>> They were supportive of various Zionist
revolutionary groups, including some
that basically became the the formal
intelligence service of Israel uh by
things like, you know, both propaganda
support, but but in concrete terms
providing them, you know, arms and
training and arms intelligence.
>> Former Nazis or like Hitler?
>> This this was during the reign of
Hitler. And then you when you look at
like how Israel used former Nazis after
the war. Well, that was developed from
established relationships, right? It
wasn't like
>> uh they just happened to go to Israel
and think, well, maybe this will work.
It's like no, they knew people um from
before the war and and during
>> Interesting. I didn't know that.
>> Yeah. There's there's a famous story of
uh of kind of Nazi on-nazi action where
Israel was assassinating Nazi scotet
scientists in Egypt that were developing
you know rocket weapons for the Egyptian
military but leveraging you know the
Gellen organization I believe
>> Reinhard Gellen. Yeah.
>> Yeah. to to kind of collect on them and
facilitate what essentially became an
assassination campaign of those. I know
I know about all that stuff after the
war and Otto Scorzini and Reinhardt Gill
and then
>> I would never associate Hitler with any
support of Jewish stuff but may maybe
there's something you know uh it's a
it's a kind of suppressed aspect of
history you know one thing that Hitler
did in from like sort of the information
warfare space was try to encourage mass
migration of of the Jewish population in
Europe to uh Israel which again at the
time
>> was a British protectorate. Um, and you
know that that actually caused a lot of
problems for Britain. So, if you're
looking at it from an asymmetric warfare
perspective, you're essentially
weaponizing migration.
>> Interesting. Okay. So, they were
>> we're way off field now, but what the
point we're getting at is uh that
>> Nazis had a global network. It didn't go
anywhere after World War II. Um,
>> they certainly brought out a lot of
assets.
>> Yeah. uh including you know weapon
scientists and probably some pretty uh
advanced technology. Um so I I I lend a
lot of credence. I need to see this uh
video. It sounds informative.
>> Speaking of international cabals dealing
with the UFO issue, do you think that
NATO has anything to do with UFOs or
maybe a vital subset of NATO? Hm.
Yeah, I I don't have any direct
information on that, but I mean, you'd
have to um especially when you're
talking about, you know, monitoring the
the the global commons and our strategic
deterrence and the deconliction, as we
already know, established between the
United States and the Soviet Union on
UFOs. Um well, you know, we're
integrated with the European militaries.
They have their roles, their own
detection systems. Some of them are
nuclear powers. Yeah, there has to be
collaboration through NATO.
>> You've said that you think science is
managed
>> and scientific innovation doesn't occur
in maybe as organic a way as what people
sort of think or what exactly do you
mean?
Yeah. Uh
specifically, I don't know about like
the development of it. I mean, well, you
can think through it and and realize
that, you know, some discoveries
probably have their origin less in
original thinking and more of study of
recovered um technology or or some sort
of, you know, uh reason to believe
something is possible, right? Once you
know something's possible, you can align
yourself towards achieving it much
easier than searching in the unknown.
But what I'm getting at more
specifically is is actual
uh domains of knowledge that are
suppressed intentionally and are done
that suppression occurs durationally um
both from like a you know a funding
standpoint to a brain drain kind of
component to actual injection of uh
disinformation or actions taken against
independent researchers. Um, and I have
very high confidence that that occurs in
at least a few
areas.
>> So, do you think there's a like a
history of scientific suppression where
when certain, you know, unlocks occur,
say in energy or propulsion, that's sort
of widely monitored and if that's at all
a threat to kind of cartel interests
whose power is based on scarcity, they
sort of intervene or what what exactly?
I think that probably happened more in
the past, but because sort of science
has become so integrated with the state,
you know, you can kind of you don't have
to use such blunt tools as that now. You
can just, you know, align incentives
based on where you where you give grants
and funding. Um, and then you have the
self-reinforcing mechanism of the the
culture within academia, which is like
these areas of knowledge have long been
disproven. So, you know, half half of
the researchers are just never going to
look there because that's what they've
been taught throughout their education
at this point. And I think we're at
we're kind of in the,
you know, the the product of decades of
suppression and that the more blunt
tools are used less now because it is it
is essentially functioning as as
intended.
>> You mentioned One Nation under blackmail
by Whitney Webb.
uh you know Robert Maxwell who was you
know uh the father of Gileain Maxwell
and you know obviously Jeffrey Jeffrey
Epstein's I don't know godfather or
something you know the the you know
obviously his closest confidant was Gain
um
>> it I guess he he seemed sort of really
interested in science in a way that like
he he interviewed Nazis after Nazi
scientists after World War II and then
he he came to own the Pergamon press you
know this which produced all these like
American textbooks and kind of helped
invent peer review in the United States.
So, it's almost like he's providing the
guard rails for scientific discovery in
the US. And then you have Jeffrey
Epstein selling uh Sandia National Labs
Promise software which siphons
systematically siphons American nuclear
secrets. And then you have him bragging
in an email saying I killed pawns years
ago. Pawns is of course Pawns and
Flechman of Cold Fusion fame. these Utah
based scientists who came to get claim
to get kind of you know uh controlled
fusion kind of over unity results um
which you know would be this massive
unlock you know that would move us out
of this sort of you know petroleum
paradigm so what do you think is going
on
so in with that example you know I have
less
uh concrete knowledge but it seems very
plausible or indeed provable that at the
very least what was going on there is
collection of scientific discoveries um
just as a function of Robert Maxwell's
role as an intell as an intelligence
asset for Israel if not more than more
than just that state um and then you
know
>> I think MI6 too maybe
>> there you go
>> yeah they all start to kind of blend
together uh at certain at high enough
levels um yeah so the collection of
scientific discoveries and then the the
management of where those discoveries
are taken based on either establishing
congenial social and business
relationships and then having the the
blackmail that the stick as it were to
to uh compel people to change their mind
if they don't make the the obvious or
desirable choice. Do you think that the
Epstein and UFO stories converge?
Because often you see in the podcast
space, especially with these Department
of War UFO drops, which might be
cynically motivated if we're being
honest with ourselves, you see a lot of
people being like, "Yeah, show me the
Epstein files. I don't care. Aliens are
a distraction." Um, my answer to that is
those two things aren't necessarily zero
sum. They don't trade off against each
other. They have nothing to do with each
other. So, yeah, it might be some
hypnotic magic trick like look at the
aliens like we have don't forget about
Iran, forget about Epstein or something
like that. you know, if you believe or
disbelieve in the UFO thing, that should
be totally independent of, you know, the
Epstein thing. And then the meta
question is, do they converge on some
level?
>> Yeah.
>> What do you think?
>> So, number one, um, people
have a have a self have an inflated
sense of selfworth when it comes to
distraction. Um, you already distract
yourselves. um organizing national
scandals on this level just to divert
your attention from the real thing uh is
is frankly kind of silly and
as we see with the UFO topic as well.
What would you even do with the
information? Right? This is largely
entertainment and spectacle for people.
Frankly, the Epstein files were too.
There was no mass protest, mass demand
for civil change like you would expect
from crimes like that.
um you're distracted already and you're
frankly,
you know, doing it to yourself. The
government doesn't need to come in and
tip the scales. So, you don't pay
attention to what truly matters. You'll
take no action anyways. Um now, where do
they converge? Um
I think un you know, we we touched on
the scientific aspect. Uh
there might be some degree of the
suppression arm there. I don't know
enough about, you know, kind of the
inner workings of of what their
activities were to say that. But I think
where you'll find the convergence is
unfortunately in the human trafficking
angle of this. Um, provably in the files
there there was an interest in people
with sigh or empathy or consciousness
abilities
um by the Epstein network um for reasons
that are kind of opaque at least in the
files released. But stepping outside of
just that uh scandal and into the larger
question of like experiencers, abductees
and and their sort of accounts of um
being trained in sigh abilities, right?
Or interacting with beings uh through
uh modes of consciousness that are you
know exotic to this the everyday.
I I think
they were interested in those people
both to,
you know, make use of those abilities uh
probably unwittingly. You know, if you
can,
uh have civilians remote view targets
for you that are of military interest,
but you never disclose your military
affiliation. you can sidestep a lot of
the problems that were with the Stargate
program, which was like, you know,
bringing these people in officially,
putting them on payroll, having the
whole security apparatus around making
people sure those people don't talk and
making sure it's deniable versus if you
use unwitting assets um and expendable
ones, then you can you can theoretically
engage in that sort of intelligence
collection in a in a more deniable means
and pro possibly cheaper, too. You don't
have to pay these people. They just are
excited to feel special and if they are
in involved or sorry entrapped in a
human trafficking network well then they
are under your power anyways. Um
dark stuff I think.
So do you think the UFO legacy program
engages in human trafficking of psionic
assets? people from third world
countries often who you know sometimes
from disaster zones that could go
missing who can call in craft or unlock
the craft through sort of a psychic mind
meld with it or anything like that. I've
only heard those allegations, so I I
can't support them, but provably the US
government and other governments are
interested in people with these
capabilities for for decades using them
on the inside as well as interested in
just civilians uh demonstrating these
abilities. So, I I would not be
surprised. But the whole um legacy
program engages in human trafficking. I
have no evidence for that. Um
maybe I think it's just to speculate
private interests probably do. Um
>> somebody told Matt Gates that that
happens. Obviously Jake Barber's
testimony
essentially amounts to that. And then
Michael Herreras as well that you know
he was in Indonesia. He sees this kind
of eight gone craft.
>> I estimated that this thing was probably
about 300 ft. And when we end up getting
into this clearing is basically when we
were intercepted by this force. This
clearing was pretty big. But this craft
was enormous, but you could tell by
their dialects that they were American.
You can tell by their facial expressions
that they were, you know, they were
serious people
>> at the time. He doesn't know what it's
transporting. Now he thinks it was
transporting human cargo. Um, and so
they were rounding up people from this
disaster zone in Indonesia presumably to
take them to some sort of range maybe so
that they could they call them P3s uh
people with uh psionic predisposition
potentials and they act as the bridge.
So there's like somebody who's this is
so dystopian and crazy but it's this
person is used to summon the craft, lock
onto the craft. They're so dissociated
that their neural pathways through an
EEG monitor are being they're being used
like a joystick by somebody, you know,
in the Air Force or, you know, who's
probably been sheep dipped or whatever
and is working for one of these
contractors. And that's how these crafts
are lured in and they're shot with
directed energy and retrieved. It sounds
nutty, but do you think there's anything
there?
I think
>> Jake Barber wrote a book called
Sentinels of Ether and he came out with
the first chapter of the book and it was
20 pages. Seven pages of that book were
redacted by subject matter experts for
some reason
>> and that's what the book's about. So, I
I find that
>> somewhat compelling.
>> Yeah. Yeah. It's just I'm I'm sorry.
It's just a dark topic. Once you get to
>> It's totally dark.
>> Once you get to the human aspect of
disclosure, it's it's gets really ugly
really fast. And it's hard to not have
some sort of emotional reaction to it,
especially when you people.
>> It's insane. And the the the to get even
darker, these P3 assets, psionic assets,
they're called pink assets because
they're seen as sort of human meat or
something like they're just being used
to call in these crafts. Like they're
they're they're just, you know,
disposable instrumentation
when they're people. They're human
beings. So my qu my immediate questions
with that is like what is the the like
the rate of shootown events that you
need a constant supply of of of SA
assets and also why do you need a
constant supply? Why can't you reuse
them? What's happening to them? Um but
let's just take aside the shootown
equation
and speculate. Well, what if you know
some of the technologies that we've
recovered require interface through
through consciousness sort of means or
sigh means to to operate. Well, there's
a reason to acquire people and also to
keep them, you know, very much under
control cuz they're essentially the key
that opens your magic tool and you don't
want that key walking out the door and
denying your ability to use that tool.
There's also the possibility that some
of these things, just speculating again,
might be gated through genetics. So only
certain genetic lineages are able to
interface with certain devices and that
that's, you know, uh one of the criteria
for making someone desirable to to a
human trafficking network um that feeds
people into the pipeline.
you get I keep I cannot shake the
suspicion that there is some sort of
delletterious effect on these people if
this is true
>> necessitates a constant influx of fresh
blood as it were.
>> No, that's I think that's why they're
called pink assets. They get this thing
called sundowner syndrome. They get
dissociated. They have no idea where
they are, you know, and what they're
doing and and and they their bodies
start to break down. I don't think
they're, you know, I I think it would be
put putting lipstick on a pig to say
that they're, you know, fired up to be
doing what they're doing. But I also,
you know, again, this is like N of one,
NF2, N of3 sort of stories. And so I I'm
trying to piece it together. I don't
fully know how widespread this is. I
don't know if that is
>> how the UFO legacy program works. It
seems like that and some Navy
archaeological find on the sea floor
seem like two qualitatively different
things to me.
>> Um, but I don't know.
>> Yeah, I think the human factor end of
the day is is is where the conversation
needs to go next. What is their interest
in us? Um, why care? Why would the
government go to such lengths to find
people with these skills? um especially
in in a deniable way from disaster
zones. I mean that seems like an
extraordinary level of effort. Um yeah.
Yeah. Well, I mean you've talked about
it with your interest in Abramelon and
hinted at certain sort of gnostic
concepts at the very least even if you
wouldn't describe yourself at all as
kind of a gnostic. And there are
traditions of you know kind of neo
neoplatonic and gnostic traditions of
the co-creating with the with the
creator. And you sort of there are
levels to this sort of thing and it
feels like uh the legacy program at
least if if this is how it works
somewhat is almost trying to speedrun
what is like a hermetic cobalistic
process which should never be done if
you actually read like you know Peter
Levvena is a great person who writes
about this he has a great uh book called
stairway to heaven and it's all about
these you know celestial ascent pract
practices across different traditions
>> and you're ever supposed to you have to
be of a certain age, a certain purity of
intent and all of that seems to be
ignored [laughter] in in in these cases.
It's like you're systematizing it.
You're attempting to scale it and you're
instrumentalizing the stuff you get back
in the form of weapons technology. That
doesn't seem like a very good idea.
>> No. And again,
what why is there such a seemingly high
burn rate? Um,
and and where are these people in
society? I mean, maybe some of them are
on the streets and just nobody listens
to them because they're functionally
like insane. Um, and so maybe they are
out there or do they just not get out?
>> I mean, that that's the other question
is like also h how many crafts come down
due to their efforts cuz it can't be
perfectly repeatable. It's got to be
like there
>> you would think an advanced system would
learn that the TTP is involved in luring
the tech down and oh adjust.
>> I think so too. And also I just I fail
to believe and I'm sorry for anybody who
vehemently disagrees but I don't think
we have thousands of these things. We it
just doesn't seem possible.
>> No.
>> You know you don't have something that
that's that widespread that could be
>> you know some somewhat democratized
through some psychic means and directed
energy or whatever. you know, maybe the
directed energy part's a little more,
you know, behind the Iron Curtain, but
like that just doesn't make sense to me.
And then why would that I don't know. It
doesn't make sense. It doesn't make
sense. Wonder if this story of using
psionics or empaths or humans
as bait for shootdowns is is in fact
cover for a real agenda and for sorry
for a a deeper agenda or a truer agenda
and that might have something to do with
breeding
>> and that these are essentially brought
in as breeding stock. They have the
genetic potential and you can
essentially through successive
generations of of breeding uh
concentrate that potential and maybe
you know um once a certain amount of
births are given. You know a person's no
longer needed and in fact they aren't
really the asset. It's going to be three
or four generations of breeding down the
line where you have some sort of super
psychic child.
>> Whoa. So, it's sort of like forced
selection, natural selection. It's a
speed up of natural selection
>> where you would isolate all the
attributes around psychic
predisposition. So maybe it's the codate
impetamin and the basil ganglia which
Gary Nolan talks about which runs in
families. you know, if you're more
neuronally dense there, you're more
likely to have UFO interactions.
>> They actually have differences in their
brain in some of the cases you've seen
that might explain why they're seeing
them.
>> Yeah. That they're basically smarter.
And what's fascinating is it runs in
families
>> and things like that, you know, uh Rh
negative blood or whatever and then
you're you're breeding over many
generations.
>> The shoot down thing doesn't make sense
to me. I mean, maybe on a very limited
basis, but again, this is advanced
technology.
>> That's nice.
>> They would learn. Um, it makes more
sense as a cover. Based on people I know
and their interactions with some
questionable groups out there, it seems
like they're more interested in females.
Humans are more interested in the
females than the males, which makes
sense if this is more of a breeding
focus. Um,
>> yeah, it does. the mind doesn't go to
many good places. Um, but I think we
have to start confronting these
questions and also start looking at, you
know, who are the bad actors in
in our communities that are exploiting
our sisters? um who who is not who they
say they are or doing things that are
are questionable and demands secrecy
from you in exchange for your
>> you know free trip to somewhere or your
participation in some exciting uh UFO
call down event.
>> Are they
>> are they are they who they say they are
and are they doing it for what they say
they are? You know, I think the UFO
community has a durational penetration
by our intelligence services and at this
point, I would argue organized criminal
enterprises.
Um, it's not I don't think it's very
safe for people that would describe
themselves as empaths right now. Yeah,
it feels like they're uh
being tracked or something. And uh yeah,
yeah, that's a weird weird phenomena. Um
well uh yeah, I don't know. [laughter] I
don't know. I don't know where to go
from there. Um, you said that humans are
a resource
>> presumably to the beings to these
non-human intelligences and you've
hinted at the fact that life is precious
and unique and that's why they're here.
What does that mean? Are we like are we
like gas or petroleum or you know some
sort of rare earth mineral to them or
like what how does how does that work in
your mind?
Yeah, it's multi-layered
and you know there's some things I have
more confidence on than others. I think
with a certain degree of confidence that
human potential is part of what their
interest is uh uh the psychic potential
potentially and our uh and our
technological development and what we
could become in the future. whether
that's like a a subservient race, a
proxy race um or
you know something maybe less uh
less cooperative than than those
options. I don't know. But um the human
factor seems central to all of this. Um
in my mind it's it is the key. Once we
discover it, we will explain a lot of
the behavior of the others.
Uh also I mean I mentioned you know like
entertainment. Well I mean that if some
of these things are are humanoid then
there's you know various unpleasant ways
you can take that line of thought. Um
but again if humans do it why not other
sentient beings.
There's also the the consciousness
aspect and in that sense you know if
consciousness is non-local.
Um there might be
you know the the possibility of of
humans being essentially vehicles or or
shells or temporary experiences for
these these things where they're able to
ride along with us and experience uh
life on Earth uh that way. Um,
if I'm watching this, I'm like, this is
all fascinating, but this sort of
analytical, you know, figuring out of
what's going on could be done
theoretically by an open source
scientist. How much of what you're
saying right now
>> is informed by things you feel like you
know because you've seen documentation?
>> Yeah, good question.
So my advantage is less that I've been
briefed into legacy program uh
capabilities or activities and it's more
so that by virtue of my role and my
level of interest in that role and its
access you know I was afforded a a great
deal of of knowledge on frontier
sciences and the transmutation of those
scientific discoveries into capabilities
that we use outside of the UFO subjects.
So I have a very uh not a very I have a
I think a very uh good foundation of
what is possible and what is currently
being done and what is like the next two
steps ahead in our discoveries um in the
non-public realm that then I can turn to
the phenomenon that we're looking at
here and say okay what could enable what
we're seeing here right if humans are
making these discoveries where does that
lead you know four or five generations
down the line. Um,
so in some sense it it is yeah it is my
own thinking. It is my own analysis.
Take it or leave it. Um, but it is it is
coming from a place of I think unique
information at least in the public
world. Of course, people on the inside
know more than me, but they're not
talking to you. If you feel like you
have an understanding of what's around
the corner scientifically,
are there any areas that you think we
could have like kind of a step-wise
update, huge leap in capabilities or
where the scientific consensus is
actually way off in our current model of
reality or a current current technology?
>> So my disadvantage is that I'm not a
trained scientist. In fact, uh pretty
far from that. I'm focused on or I when
I was involved in this stuff I was
focused on fact of and how it is applied
less of how it was learned
>> um or the language used to describe it
in a technical sense but where where are
we going I mean I don't want to
get myself in jail
>> yeah sure
>> but I think you know what we're talking
on with consciousness being integrated
with technology is a major area for uh
changing the human experience um And in
fact,
I think is a, you know, if if is it is
an opportunity to play catch-up as it
were in the in the public world versus
the black. Um,
less surprising is is is energy
production. I I think uh especially when
it comes to you've talked on it um
you've touched on it with Kirk McConnell
when he was on here extended
electronamics.
>> Yeah, I was going to bring that up.
>> Yeah. And I think you know it's no
accident Kirk came to this show first
and no accident he brought that up. And
so is the human brain
wired in such a way architected in such
a way that it uh that it can uh function
in these uh quantum mechanical ways and
in terms of uh of modern um extended
electronamics.
>> He's deep. So he's Senate Armed Services
Committee and he was under Jack Reid um
the senator from Rhode Island and he
knows all about extended electronamics
which is this idea that you know so in
classical electronamics you have uh
typical transverse hertzene
electromagnetic wave so you have um the
electric field the magnetic field and
wave propagation all running
perpendicular to each other and it's
limited it moves at 1 / r^ 2 and it
decays and attenuates and um it decays
and attenuates faster under because of
the existence of the magnetic field, the
electrons pair off um very quickly
because of the salt water, for example.
And so there's a lot of talk around this
idea of extended electronamics where you
have a wave that could attenuate at 1 /
r and you'd have uh electric field a
magnetic field maybe running parallel
maybe you wouldn't have a magnetic field
maybe you wouldn't have an electric
field or you'd have an electric field
running parallel to wave propagation or
a magnetic field running parallel to the
wave propagation and you could transmit
signals through deep space and through
you know underwater and under sea you
even salt water and it would you know be
near instantaneous.
I think
this is also called like scalar
longitudinal waves or something like
that or that's an application of that
theory. Um again I'm out of my depth
when it comes to technical language but
yes um the transmission of energy and
really space um instantaneously
seems to be where that leads and also
the extraction of energy. It's a
reversible process as well which is
really fascinating
>> um and potentially very very dangerous.
>> My understanding is that the Russians I
think are are also um you know have very
well verssed in this. So
>> seems to be the case. Um, you know,
people dismiss Thomas Bearden. I mean,
whatever. He's a, let's just say it's
true, he's a limited hangout mixed with
disinformation.
You're covering up a core truth, though.
Um, which is that this is an area of
physics that does have applications uh
to
security.
Um but those same applications are
potentially you know worldchanging in
term to certainly power transmission
especially if you can connect this
uh way of transmitting or extracting
power with a novel energy source that is
potentially
limited only based on its you know your
ability to extract energy right um
very powerful uh
economically
Thomas Bearden was this Navy guy who
constantly yeah talked about sort of
scalar weaponry. He said that the
Soviets sort of figured out this massive
death ray sort of thing.
>> And I maybe it was a limited hangout but
>> the limited hangout around Maxwell's
equations comes up so much that there
has to be there's when there's smoke
there's fire. Yes. So there has to be
something around a change in the math of
Maxwell's equations
>> or maybe being going back to Maxwell's
equations which were actually condensed
into heavy sides for vector calculus
simplified equations. There's something
there. The crossover to sort of what
you're talking about which is like the
latent potential in just the vacuum or
the void again is where there's smoke
there fire kind of situation. Um,
>> so like a zero point energy sort of
thing
>> basically. Yeah, I think um we're we're
circling
>> quantum vacuum fluctuations that you can
harness.
>> That might be it.
>> Yeah.
>> Um again only concerned with the fact of
when I was learning these things.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um
anything that you know the other thing I
find interesting is like spin orbit
coupling of uh like you have these what
are called topological insulators. Do
you know anything about that?
>> No, I don't. or plasma stuff like
topological insulators are like uh you
know like when you get into like very
high up in the periodic table like very
heavy elements
>> um few of them are stable but take one
like bismouth I think which I think
comes up a lot in sort of UFO lore
>> bismouth's very strange and uh you end
up in this thing it's called the you
know it's the relativistic par paradigm
where uh when it's infused with energy
uh you end up with this repellent
magnetic force instead of an inward
retra uh attracting uh magnetic force.
So it's almost like a misner effect like
it's like an anti-gravitational push off
on anything trying to sort of touch it.
>> And um
>> I think there's something around that
that seems really consequential as well
because it dovtales with the Lazar stuff
and yeah the brown stuff but we can
>> No, it's fine. What would you What would
be the utility of that I wonder? Is it
levitation as like a inherent property
of an object that is
>> if you could push off on the magnetic
field of the earth that would be really
cool.
>> Got it. Okay. [laughter]
>> Yeah. See that seems to be one of the
modes of propulsion. You know I don't
know the mechanisms behind it but uh
that at that high level is something
I've heard. Um, you know, whether that
gets you out of the gravitational well
of the Earth, I don't know. But
>> how far do you think we've gotten in
reverse engineering these things?
>> H,
I think enough to have propulsion
um, and beamed power so that you don't
necessarily have to have an onboard
power source for these devices. um
especially if you're able to do lossless
or near lossless power beaming, you can
do some pretty incredible things in
relatively small form factors. Um and if
you're able to, you know, put your power
beaming system in orbit, then you're
able to essentially have global coverage
and potentially, you know, have have
indefinite duration surveillance or
operations staged uh in the atmosphere
or exo atmosphere. How high confidence
are you that some come from outer space
into our atmosphere?
>> Oh, I mean certainty. [laughter]
>> Certainty.
>> Yeah. Um, yeah, definitely. I mean,
again, whether that means they're
interstellar or interplanetary, that
that doesn't prove that, but able to
come in and out of our atmosphere.
>> And that's from stuff you've seen on the
inside
>> thing. Yes. And then also like, you
know, other people's testimony as well.
I mean, we're uh if this was any other
subject, the amount of uh witness
testimony from people with placement and
access would be overwhelming.
>> 100%. No, I always say that. I agree
with that. Um where do you draw the line
on what you can and can't say
uh
to some I mean largely based on the
department of state cleared report and
then inferences drawn from that report.
So if I was to talk about something that
I don't have a clear basis to draw that
inference from, but that inference is
classified in other sense. I I feel like
I'm on shaky ground. [gasps]
Uh to put it simply, it seems like I'm
more okay so far saying what I think and
less of why I think it. Um yeah. Um, and
you've experienced some pretty shitty
reprisals, uh, to to put it
euphemistically, right?
>> Yeah. Um,
you know, I keep a lot of things close
to my chest. Uh, one, because there's
nothing really to do about them,
especially if they're state sponsored or
corporate sponsored or foreign. Um, two,
I mean,
burden of proof is on the accuser, but
if you know, you're not I'm not living
with 24-hour surveillance around me
recording all my interactions. So, if
something happens, um, and then I come
forward with my word, well, I'm the UFO
guy, so it's easy to dismiss what I say.
Um, and you know, the believe all
victims thing doesn't seem to extend to
UFO whistleblowers.
Um,
it's been very unpleasant. And
>> you've had your house
>> continuing broken into.
>> Yeah, that's a that's a well-known one
and it's mentioned the most cuz there
was a you know, someday they can go get
the police record for it. Called them,
had them visit and all that. It's just,
you know, what's the point? Um, the
police were just as confused as I was
about the whole thing, which is, you
know, nothing of value was taken except
for Yeah. Nothing of value was taken.
The only thing that was like totally
removed from the premise and never
recovered was my civilian passport. Uh,
my grandfather's ashes were put out in
the [sighs and gasps]
in the in the alley behind our house by
the garbage. And you know, my wife's
documents were laid out in a way that
clearly looked like, you know, someone
was lined them up in a row, take a
taking a photo of them and leave them
out there for us to find.
>> They took your passport, lined up your
wife's documents showing that they were
sort of combing them over. And then
that's so disrespectful, man. They took
her grandfather's ashes and they put
them behind the alley.
>> Yeah. Yeah. And uh you know, it all
happened when we were there asleep. the
only sign of entry was a very small
basement window that was forced open and
like I I fail to see how an adult male
can get in there. U so it was more
likely that that was just done
intentionally to to demonstrate you know
something had happened. They probably
just came through my front door, picked
the lock and you know walked in.
>> I think there's like an old Stacey
method of like it's I think it's called
like move the furniture around where
they show you that they can they can
touch you and
Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, I've had
at this point I'm
people either believe me or don't, so
it's less
uh
costly to talk about things. But I mean
there's been other instances of
of um you know either people
demonstrating that they can reach out
and touch me at any time or incidentally
just detecting
some sort of surveillance or
uh similar kind of operation being
conducted. Um yeah,
>> you said that um Office of Special
Investigations in the Air Force is
actively
messing with UFO whistleblowers and uh
their families and stuff as well and and
getting into their private lives. Is
that is that right?
>> Yeah, we got I mean that's that wasn't
my experience, but that was that is
someone's experience in this world.
They're not public. Um but and there but
there was proof in this case of it being
an AFO SI officer.
Um
you know there's no protections for
whistleblowers. There's no witness
protection program for Congress. We're
out here on our own. Um,
uh, you know, I've had
instances that feel like foreign
intelligence trying to penetrate my
network and extract information, um, and
also deliver threats. Um,
that's certainly very concerning to me,
both from, you know, I'm an American
patriot. I don't want national secrets
being extracted from me for foreign
competitors gain. But then also
concerning which is that in the world of
intelligence, you know, using third
parties to take care of your your uh
your dirty dishes, take out your trash
is is is something that's done cuz then
it's deniable, right? It's not US assets
uh removing a person, it's foreign
assets. Um so very uncomfortable.
>> That's super uncomfortable. Uh how has
all of this affected you emotionally?
And do you ever regret coming out?
>> I mean, I feel like I'm doing okay now,
but for a long time is
very stressful. And you know, you get to
a point where you're hyper vigilant and
then, you know, you're responding to
things that aren't uh a threat in a in a
in a way that doesn't match like the
gravity of what's going on. So, you
know, that's not good for anyone
involved.
>> Anybody deep into UFOs has been there.
>> Yeah. That's not not a not a healthy
lifestyle by any means.
>> Um,
[sighs]
do I regret coming forward? I mean,
>> on a personal level, yes. It's it's done
nothing good for me or my wife or or my
friends and family. Um, there's been no
meaningful reform. There's been no
official disclosure. There's been no
justice for anyone whether myself, other
whistleblowers or the people uh involved
in legacy program or they're the victims
of associated activities. Um people get
entertainment out of this. They get
their curiosity satisfied to a certain
degree. Um they get to mock and laugh if
they don't believe. So on a personal
level, yeah, I have a lot of regrets.
It's uh there's been zero benefit, only
downsides.
uh and people that
uh people in my life have been hurt just
because of you know virtue of
association with me. Uh but from a civic
duty perspective, from a moral duty
perspective, from a you know what is
good for humanity perspective, no, I
don't have regrets. It needed to be
done. Um
I just hope that you know eventually it
leads to meaningful change.
What do you wake up every morning now
feeling now that you're on the outside?
>> H
nothing so nothing very dramatic. I'm
more I've tried to focus more on my you
know physical, spiritual and emotional
health. Uh focus more on being a good
husband, a good brother, a good friend.
So what am I thinking about is how to do
those things each day. Um, and
you know, disclosure is kind of uh
it's always in the background. It's
never going anywhere. Um, but it's uh
it's not the first thing I think about
anymore.
>> That's healthy. Speaking of
whistleblower protections, you have this
very cool new initiative. Maybe put your
leg down so I can see your shirt.
>> There we go.
>> What does that say? Vanguard. Yes.
>> What is Vanguard?
>> So, this is a Vanguard. Vanguard
Enterprise. Vanguard for short. It's a
uh nonprofit that uh Dylan Borland and
myself have started and uh Jeffrey
Nusatelli has now joined. Um it's basic
it's pretty simple. It's a organization
a charity to support and empower UAP
whistleblowers from the national
security enterprise uh helping them with
their legal, financial/career
transition, medical, psychological, and
community needs. Um we're very much in
early days on that. Uh you know we have
a short list of people we know need help
and we you know [sighs]
uh need to raise the resources to to
fulfill on delivering those those those
forms of assistance. But, you know, it's
been
encouraging some Yeah, it's been
encouraging to see some serious
community support and hope to build off
of that and uh try to try to help people
because the government isn't.
>> That's beautiful, man. And where can
people donate?
>> Uh, you can find our website at
vanguardenterprise.org.
There's a link uh to support. Uh, we use
a platform called Give Butter. It's only
for nonprofits. So every donation you
made through there, you automatically
get a email and you can, you know, use
that uh to to claim in your taxes as a
charitable donation.
>> What's that trippy pyramid floating
around above earth? And then you have
the upside down triangle. It's a very
interesting logo.
>> Yeah, we spent a lot of time on it. Um
had a we have a great team of volunteers
that have been helping us for for a
while now and and this is one of one of
their products. Um,
you know, there's there's various ways
the symbolism can be interpreted, but
uh, where we started with was the World
War II V for victory.
>> Uh, and that's kind of where we based
the shape on and then from there uh,
kind of got this evocative motif going.
Yeah.
>> Very cool. anything else we missed or
>> um
probably can't go into it too much, but
I would just also add that another area
of science and technology that people
should be aware of is is advancing or
has advanced quite rapidly is in the
biotechnology realm and that definitely
overlays with the phenomena that we're
talking about. Um and it is currently
you know one of the the most uh
unrecognized I guess trends that's going
to that is in the process of changing
our environment. What sort of biotech?
Genetic editing.
>> Def I mean definitely when it comes to
you know uh
constructing or or or changing the human
genome for specific purposes but things
like entirely synthetic biological
constructs and then the interplay
between directed energy and synthetic or
modified biology.
>> Wow. there's some very um important
things that people should start pulling
the thread on in those areas and that
this again gets back to consciousness
and and how it is manipulated through
both natural means and increasingly
technological means.
>> So like psychotronic weaponry
>> so I've only heard that term on the
outside but I mean
>> yes I think we eventually get there. I
think that's more specifically a
directed energy
application.
But could you cause somebody to hear or
see something through directed energy?
>> Definitely hear.
>> Yeah.
>> Um I you know directed energy is a very
broad uh category.
I have very good reason to believe that
you know essentially our mind is no
longer sovereign.
uh it can be interfaced with through
uh remote means as well as you know
direct you know kind of uh devices right
even our dreams are now subject to
technological manipulation this isn't
even classified knowledge um at least
anymore uh you can look at technical
applications from MIT itself relating to
dream implantation um including at a
distance
>> so you know
>> and do you think ideas can be implanted
somebody's waking life.
>> Yes.
>> That's freaky. It is.
>> In your high confidence,
>> I'm certain.
>> That's insane.
>> Mhm.
>> Yeah. That's It's interesting. I um
interviewed this guy, Dr. Colin Ross,
and he wrote a book called CIA Doctors
>> and it's all the, you know, whole MK
Ultra thing and how all these
psychiatrists were distributed across
the United States, often at, you know,
elite universities
>> and like Jolly West, for example, was
like
>> head of UCLA psychiatry for a very long
time. and he's talking with Sydney
Gotautley back and forth. He's probably
MK Ultraing, you know, Charles Manson.
Like, it's wild like the history of our
country. And it's interesting, he wrote
a follow-up book on directed energy
>> and electromagnetism in the body. And
so, it's not even wacky at all to say
that that electromagnetism has this
fundamental influence on life. You know,
there's a great professor named Michael
Lean at TUS, okay? And he talks about
you know how morphology like basically
the form that your body takes is more
dictated by the local electromagnetic
field than it is by uh DNA and that in
some ways that's the you know the DNA is
providing the proteins which is the
hardware but the software that's writing
on top of it is electromagnetism and if
you put a frog embryo for example in a
Faraday cage so you eliminate you know
all electromagnetic interference it
won't grow correctly and then If you put
something next to something radioactive
like you know uh in you know Chernobyl
like you you know things get mutated or
near the Fukushima disaster you have two
excess radiation or no radiation
>> if you eliminate the human resonance you
know even astronauts have issues with
their bodies when they go into space.
>> So there's something about
electromagnetism in life and you know
our cells communicate via voltage gated
ion channels. So they're you know it's
it's very very essential. It's
fundamental. Yeah. And if you look at
all the Havana syndrome directed energy
stuff, the person is being wholly
destabilized by microwaves essentially.
>> Yes.
>> So I I think this is another area where
it's provably suppressed science, the
interaction between the human body and
uh our nervous system, our organs.
>> But you think we can semantic content
can be relayed into somebody's like
>> I know it can.
>> Oh my god. M and and this isn't even
like a natural like a woo or psychic
thing that through artificial means
ideas can be implanted or transferred or
played in in the human mind um in
multiple ways actually you know
[sighs and gasps]
uh the most crude of which you could
call like the voice to skull technology
I never saw that on the inside I know a
different term but that's the public one
um there's those again public things
which is like you know using a pulse
microwave to cavitate uh water and
essentially generate sound or or heat.
Um and also interestingly enough light
is able to modulate DNA. Um
you know biopysics as a field is is an
area that has immense potential to
change the human experience for both the
better and the worst. And I think um
unfortunately most of this research has
been in the security intelligence and
military realm. So the applications are
understandably focused on things not
oriented
towards human flourishing um more
towards control and and such naturally.
I mean when you're a hammer everything
looks like a nail and you're not going
to be engaging in the research for the
betterment of humanity. You're going to
>> be doing it for sort of destructive
means. But it's so unfortunate when you
end up with civil side science that's
lagging, you know, all sorts of really
exciting stuff behind the Iron Curtain
and it's only being used for weapons.
We're still flying 747s from, you know,
the 60s and we still use it. Again, it's
it's not even
>> crazy at all to say, you know,
biochemistry is the only layer with
which we treat the body and fundamental
to biochemistry is physics. It's
acoustics and and electromagnetism. All
three of those things that's not that's
pass to say it's conventional in science
to say that. So, um why wouldn't we have
some sort of deeper more granular
understanding of how
>> those three things interact with the
human body? Of course, we would. And
then where I'm both freaked out but also
intrigued cuz I'm sure there are really
positive applications of this is how the
hell would you distill an
electromagnetic signal into like
semantic content and then transmit that
into somebody's mind like that's you
know that's the secret sauce. I wish I
could give you that answer, but um I I
actually suspect, you know, there
there's there's enough leads in the open
source or gray literature on this that,
you know, uh motivated parties could
could replicate that capability. Do you
ever wonder if we're playing in sort of
padded walls? Like the whole UFO
conversation is somewhat limited and
it's limited by people who have
capabilities on the level of, you know,
being able to confine what we're
thinking about and causing us to sort of
chase our tail. Like
often it feels like right when you're
about to get smoking gun evidence, it
goes missing. And I talked about this
with Dylan, you know, uh, Borland. I was
like, do you think that the nonhuman
intelligence is involved in the cover
up? itself or something and he was like
yes I for sure know that
>> my opinion
>> absolutely yes
>> have you ever talked to anybody in
incredible position in the government
who seems to have hinted that humans
aren't in charge
>> the ICIG did it
>> with me personally I I want to respect
them but the ICI did it with me yes
>> so the intelligence community inspector
general told you that humans are not in
charge
>> they extremely hinted at it It's almost
like a defining almost design feature of
the entire UFO space is like you and
Jock Valle writes about this and he
wrote about it 50 years ago and I don't
know if he's that much closer to the
truth now than he is then after decades
of studying this thing. You're in this
construct there control mechanisms are
being used to cause you to literally
chase your tail and you are always on
the verge of some smoking gun and it
always slips through your fingers. Hm.
Yeah. I mean, on on one side of that is
is I mean, this is a heavily monitored
community. Um, so they know what we're
talking about and once, you know, they
detect that, you know, there might be an
effort to try to actually
>> get something, you know, they already
are well aware, they can take that
preemptive measure.
Um but it makes sense though that you
know the others or the the non-human
intelligences would if as they seem to
be are invested in keeping us unaware of
their presence uh that they would you
know kind of prevent independent
discovery outside of their controlled
you know relationships with with human
proxies. Um, I believe Dylan. I also
believe that what that points at is is
collaboration
between us and and uh some sort of third
third party. Um, most likely in my mind,
we're the juniors in that partnership.
>> Yeah, makes sense. Well, on that note,
Matthew Brown, thank you so much for
coming. This has been a long time
coming. This is a lot of fun. And uh
yeah, I just uh I don't know. I hope
that please donate to Vanguard. Check
out the website. What's the website?
vanguardenterprise.org.
>> Okay, check that out. Donate, please
give whatever you have and um yeah, I
really appreciate you coming.
>> Thank you, Jesse. This was a quite a
pleasure. Like you said, long time
coming. I'm I'm really happy to to
finally have the chance to do this. So,
thank you.
>> Yeah, wide-ranging discussion.
Awesome.
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