Hello friends. I'm bringing a brand new
live show across the UK and Ireland this
October. It's stories, psychology,
audience Q&As's, and whatever happens
when thousands of overthinkers
voluntarily leave the house and end up
in the same room together. I'd love to
see you there. The last tour completely
sold out, so make sure that you snag
tickets now using the link in the
description or heading to Chris
Williamson. Dublin's already sold out.
Loads of venues are limited. Tickets are
very limited, so get yours now. Chris
Williamson.
What's the biggest lie that people are
told about getting rich?
>> That is actually about looking rich and
not getting rich. I think especially for
men these days, like it's all in your
face. On social media today, you can see
just about everywhere what somebody's
success level is. Except if you were to
pull up the balance sheet, it would be
something very different.
>> And so I think rich actually is two
things. One, yes, do you have enough
money, you know, divided by point4 to
have the life that you want? And then
two, it's do you actually like the life
you want? I love Naval's quote, which
is, you know, basically the definition
of success is, do you have what you want
out of life? The definition of happiness
being the same. And I think we all kind
of trauma bonded as business owners over
the fact we should be miserable when we
run our businesses. You don't look
miserable.
>> It's hard, but I don't think being rich
or being an owner has to be miserable.
And that's a great lie. I wonder how
many people love the idea of working for
themselves until they realize that they
end up being trapped by their own
business.
>> Oh, well, I mean, interestingly enough,
46% of business owners actually uh
aren't profitable. So, most business
owners aren't profitable ever. 64% of
business owners are profitable, but they
make less than minimum wage in
California, which is actually wild. So,
if you think about it that the average
business owner makes somewhere between
40 and 60k per year. I think minimum
wage if you were to work full-time in
California shakes out to about 75
$78,000 a year. So, yeah, I think
>> you don't need to take your job home
with you. You're not stressing over
whether or not you can make ends meet
inside of the business. You're not not
paying yourself in order to frontload
the staff's wages for next month.
>> Yeah. And you know, and I get a lot of
crap for talking about wanting to buy
businesses instead, but it's mostly
because it's really [ __ ] hard to
start one. And most of them fail. And
sadly, the ones that do win, that means
you paid for the right to one day
eventually make some money for three to
four years. Uh, and people don't think
about that. And so, if you if you
actually have a business that makes
money right now, you're in the top 10%.
You know, if you have a business that
makes a million dollars a year, you're
well above the top 1% even though you're
probably only taking home 150k a year.
And if you have a business that's a $10
million a year business, that's 01% of
all businesses. So, it's way harder than
anybody thinks.
>> Does that mean that very few people
should start businesses or become
business people?
>> I think it means you got to know what
you're getting into. You know, I think
uh anybody who's trying to sell you that
you can have everything you want inside
of 30, 60 or 90 days and you can do it
with little or no money down and you can
do it with no effort, it's not going to
work out. The only time it works out is
when you look at the math in most of
these things. And I'm just a nerd. Like
I look at the spreadsheets of buying a
business and I say, "What's the lowest
default rate you could have?" That's an
SBA loan. 13% of those businesses fail
per year. That's just public math. Then
I look at startups. 90% of them fail
within a 5 to 10 year period. So you
basically have these like crazy two
amounts of uh of success rates. I think
probably most people should go work in
somebody else's business that's really
successful first before you ever think
about starting your own. You'd be much
better off.
>> It's interesting the question could
anybody become a business owner is
probably quite high. uh with enough
childhood trauma and caffeine and sleep
deprivation and obsession probably
anybody could that doesn't mean that
anybody should and I saw this a lot when
I was coming up doing nightlife stuff
>> lots of people had the ability but not
the
capacity or the disposition maybe would
be a better way to say it like you have
all of the component parts of the talent
but what it does to you what it requires
from you in terms of a sacrifice
uh especially in the beginning because
for the most part it's hardest in the
beginning and the the challenges get
more complex and more difficult in some
ways but as you say momentum is a hell
of a drug and the habit of I'm a
business person and I understand what
time I get up and I understand how to
switch off if I can and so on and so
forth those skills that take a long time
and the like Dunning Krueger messy
middle bit is where it really hurts.
>> Yeah. And most businesses fail not just
because of cash but because the founder
gives up. I mean, that's why venture
capital loves two founders, sometimes
even three, because the likelihood of
you burning out in your business is
actually higher than an employee burning
out in their business. Most
entrepreneurs just don't make it. But I
mean, my flip side there is like you can
own part of a business
for almost anybody pretty quickly. I
think people overestimate how hard that
is. Like you must get thousands of
applicants, right, for your business.
And how often you're like, "God, where
are the competent people? Where are
they? Aren't you thinking that a lot?
Like they don't work hard as much. This
generation's not as tough. Every
business owner I've ever met thinks
that. So I think you can actually go
inside somebody else's business, carve
out a piece of equity in that business
if you're super valuable. And then
you're still business owner. Like we
don't look at Cheryl Samberg differently
for that. We don't look at Bali
Savvasian different because he was CTO.
Guy's still worth hundreds of millions
of dollars.
>> So I think it's actually totally
feasible, but people just don't think
about it that way.
>> What's that story about when you turned
down Richard Branson? Uh well,
[laughter and gasps] you know, early on
in my career in business, I was a
terrible operator and uh I I had what
was I call the hero complex in business.
Like you have to survive. If you don't
if you're not the savior in everything
in your business, your business won't
survive. And most entrepreneurs tell
ourselves that because we're
unemployable and we do have a little bit
of a god complex and we have a little
bit of trauma from whatever happened to
us that put us into the massochism that
is entrepreneurship.
And uh and so in my business, I was a
huge uh Branson fan and I still am, but
it was because he got to live this crazy
life while he built a business. Like how
many billionaires do you know go and you
know travel in a hot air balloon across
the world? I just thought that was
really cool and I like adventuring. So
um and then he invited me to his island.
Now I don't go to billionaire's islands.
You know, that's our own side. A
>> bad rap. [laughter]
>> I think you should bring them back.
>> I don't know. [gasps]
>> So now I would probably say no. I guess
no, I would go. I got invited and I
couldn't um I told myself that I didn't
have time. If I left the business, it
would fail. And I saw this activity list
of like water biking, water bicycling,
whatever that is, hanging out without
your phone for multiple days. And uh
there was just no way I could get away
from my business for that. And you know,
since then, I have had a bunch of
friends go, they've done business deals,
they've met, you know, power players,
they did all this stuff that is
asymmetric to business being in
spreadsheets. And I missed out on it
because I told myself a total lie about
building businesses, which is that the
business is centered around you and you
are the most important part. And if you
don't drive revenue, the business won't
make re revenue. And now that's not true
at all.
>> You told yourself that, didn't go and
see Branson. Meanwhile, Branson's
snorkeling and running billion dollar
businesses.
>> Yeah. Multiple. And I think at the time
this business was probably doing $5
million a year. You know, it was not a
big business at all. And it was growing
and it was profitable. You know, there
was no fire to put out. It was just a
lie I told myself.
>> How much responsibility is really just
ego, do you think?
>> That's an interesting question.
I think
I think when it comes to business
building, we try to wrap up our identity
so much in the thing that we call
ourselves, CEO, founder, creator, and we
don't realize that one day your business
will have a giant gaping hole of failure
in it. and you'll sit alone in the dark
with no idea of what to do next
wondering why you ever started this
thing and really worried that it's going
to fail and it's going to fail because
of you. We will all have that moment.
And when that moment happens, if it's
your entire identity, then what do you
do? Then you're a failure because you
couldn't figure out this one business
issue. You know, Branson's had something
like 60 plus businesses over his career.
Multiple huge failures. And so how much
of us wrapping our identity in one thing
is the thing that's holding us back?
Probably a lot.
>> And is that actually healthy for you at
all? And what if actually the people who
work for you are more competent than you
think and they might be better than you
at something? Uh but it's taken me I
don't know 15 years to figure that out.
>> Take me through the story arc of the
[clears throat] typical founder business
owner person. who they are, how they
start, how they frame it, what that
morphs into, the problems they face, and
sort of what the path out is on the
other side. What's the what's the story
that we've got here?
>> Yeah. Well, I would say there's really
there's 12 types of owners. And the
three most common owners or founders or
entrepreneurs are what we call the
closer, the ball hog, and the visionary.
And we've run about 15,000 people
through a survey to figure out what are
the three most common and what are their
strengths and weaknesses. And what's
fascinating is the three most common all
have a very similar story arc which is I
worked for somebody else. They wouldn't
listen to me. I wanted to do it
differently. Uh they saw a different
path for me. I didn't fit into the mold.
And so I had to go create my own thing
because I became relatively unemployable
or I was b faster, better, stronger than
the other guys. And so I went and did my
own thing. And the the founders
typically have three characteristics. If
you're a closer, they're really good at
selling anything, right? You could
probably sell ice to an Eskimo. You're
like selling promotions, then you're on
Love Island selling yourself, then
you're here talking to an entire
generation, right? You probably are a
closer. I'm not sure. Um, that's like
one of the most successful archetypes.
We have lots of friends who are great
salespeople. The second one is the
founder, which is like you will
something to existence like Newtonic
that just hasn't existed before. You
create a product that nobody else has
had. And the third is the visionary. And
the visionary sells dreams. They have,
you know, if you want to succeed as a
CEO, you have to sell a vision that's
bigger than what your employees could
see by themselves. You need to be able
to raise them up. Otherwise, they don't
need you. And so, I think the arc for
almost everybody is you're highly
qualified, you're good, you're in
business, you're outperforming other
people, they're not listening to you,
you go execute. The problem is all of
that is about you. None of that is about
you as a leader, as a builder of a real
business putting in systems and
processes. That is actually usually for
number TWs and number threes.
>> Mh.
>> So, you've got to learn that skill and I
had to, too. And you have to learn it a
lot more when you're outside of an
organization. You're creating your own.
>> What are the component parts of those
skills?
>> Well, if I was going to break down what
makes a good like a great founder, what
do the best founders have? One, they
hate repeating themselves. Like, how
many times have you as a leader said, "I
swear to God, if I have to repeat this
one more time, I'm going to lose it."
That annoyance for repetition actually
leads to systems. And systems are the
only thing that allow you to scale. So,
you can be an incredible salesperson. If
you're a salesperson of one, you'll only
get to I've seen some businesses get to
a few million in sales with one
salesperson, but that's it. So, one, you
hate repetition. Two is you love one
thing about your business more than
anybody else, which is selling the
client on exactly not the product, but
the problem you're solving. And usually,
let's I take Newtonic again, it would be
like, yeah, I don't actually really know
what's in the drink, but you're selling,
hey, maybe I want to be like Chris
Williamson. Maybe I want to like be
super productive. Like, I have this
brain frog, right? You have to be
obsessed with this problem set. And I
think the problem with a lot of young
entrepreneurs today is they're like,"I
starting an AI services business."
You're like, "Why are you obsessed with
that? Can you not sleep for the want of
it? If not, you shouldn't start it." And
then the third thing they have to do is
they have to be able to have other
people believe that they might actually
be able to follow through on the dream.
And I think a lot of entrepreneurs fall
down there. They'll say, "There aren't A
players anywhere." Well, how many times
have you wanted to go work for a C
player if you're an A player? You got to
be a winner if you want to attract
winners. And
>> that's really hard to look in the mirror
and ask yourself.
>> Do you think
is being indispensable a compliment to
founders?
>> No. I mean, if you could take one thing
as a founder to heart, it would be your
revenue should have nothing to do with
you. You actually the more that you are
the driver of your revenue, the less you
have a business, the more you have a
highly paid job. And you know, I think
about it like a entrepreneur pyramid
with three levels to the game. the
bottom level of the pyramid that's the
entrepreneurs. This is like uh we all do
it together you know but really I do
everything the the next level is a
manager which is they do things kind of
but I micromanage and oversee them and
at the very top it should actually be as
a CEO uh I do very few things and the
team does everything else. It's also
called the generalist to specialist
curve. Like you essentially move people
from doing many things kind of well to
having a few specialists that run
everything really well.
>> Yeah. You say the most a dangerous
addiction for a founder is being needed.
>> I mean it's true. I mean I think in your
business there's nothing better than
feeling like you can come in and save
the day and make the money and do the
clothes in your business. Especially I
mean we have a lot of entrepreneurs and
founders who are are men. That's like
95% of the companies that we have and I
see it a lot with them. Uh women
typically want to be needed by their
employees. Men want to be needed for the
business. And so if the business needs
them to close and grow revenue, then
they feel really excited about it. And
the thing that got them the ability to
be a founder ends up becoming the reason
they'll never succeed. You know, we have
one founder that I I adore and he's
built a really big company and the
business is quite big now. It's a nine
figure business and if that business
fails, it will be one person's fault and
that is [ __ ] him because he will not
get out of the way to hire people better
than him. And I think a lot of times we
get scared of hiring people better than
us because what does that mean for us as
a founder? Do we have guilt? Do we have
shame? Could they take over our
position? Uh it's kind of not normal.
And like
>> that's it. I mean you you might be right
that um lots of founders have access to
a talent pool which is better than them.
I get the sense that finding people that
are competent and hardworking and have
initiative is an unbelievably rarified
skill set. And I would guess more
founders struggle to find the candidates
and the staff than find them and have
some existential fear about bringing
them into their organization. What do
you think?
>> I think the fear is subconscious and I
think and you know so it's hard to know.
I think the fear subconscious, but the
real problem is what Charlie Mer said,
which is you or I are probably not good
at enough at setting up incentives
properly.
>> So, the reason why somebody you're
scared of somebody in your business
being better than you is often because
you don't know how to corral them as a
force inside of your business. Because
if you are really good at incentives,
you could hire just about anybody and
point them in the right direction and
get out of their way.
>> Okay. How does a business owner get the
most out of their stuff?
>> You nail the incentives. If you want to
win, follow the incentives always. So,
first, like I really think there's only
five reasons why anybody does anything
in your business. They want to make
money. One. Two, they want relevance.
Three, they want to lead. They want a
team and to not be a doer uh on top of
it all the time. Uh four, they want not
just relevance, but significance like
I'm higher than this person. and I have
a higher hierarchy or title than this
person does. And five, they want work
life balance or freedom. And so those
are like the five main levers we use in
our business if we want to incentivize
somebody. The biggest mistake you can
make early on as a founder is thinking
that everybody's like you. I like money.
So like if if I'm incentivizing me,
[laughter] insert him off and his
sweater.
>> If it's me, you're going to give me a
comp plan that just shows me I can make
millions of dollars. I'm going to
[ __ ] run. If you show me a comp plan
that gives me lots of work life balance,
Fridays off, foosball table, I don't
give a [ __ ] That's not interesting. But
if you're in Austin, guess what's more
important? The freedom than the money
actually from the culture here writ
large. And so how you incentivize them,
you got to know your people. So we make
all of them take a personality score.
This comes from private equity. It's not
that I'm smart. I stole all of this. And
private equity makes every single
employee take personality tests and then
drives their incentive comp plan to what
they do. Like if you hire somebody who's
balance and freedom based, but they're a
genius at creative insight or
engineering or product, that's a win.
But if you put them on a comp plan
that's only about money, you're going to
lose and so are they.
>> Mhm.
>> And so it's it's a dance. And I wish it
was the same every single time. It's
not. What are the most overlooked from
those five or what are the ones that
people
>> probably significance and relevance? Um,
if you think about titles, uh, there's a
lot of people today that will say you
shouldn't care about titles, you know,
don't have title creep. Um, I don't know
that that's always true. If somebody
wants to have a high title and that's
really important to them, you could pay
somebody way less money. You could give
them less time off, but you could give
them a higher title. Okay, that's just a
lever. We all know of people in our
industry that use the title game to
compensate for the salary gain.
>> Oh. Oh, a lot. Most founders actually
put founder or entrepreneur or
visionary. That one makes me want to die
like next to their name. Uh but their
business makes you know 30k a year but
that's important to them that sort of
significance. Um and then relevance is
slightly difference in that um a lot of
people like my company for instance. So,
we have 100 plus employees at the media
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Like they could have been in private
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us.com/modernwisdom
and modern wisdom at checkout. What I'm
interested in most, I think, is this
transition from founder mode to owner
mode over time. And you know, I've seen
this three times now in my life. First
running the nightclubs, then running
modern wisdom, and now also running
Newtonic as well. Less so with Newtonic.
I've been good with that. But here's the
problem that I think a lot of people
face, right? Founder initi initially has
to become sort of psychologically fused
to the company. Like they are the
company. They work harder than everyone.
They know every every customer. They
take every just checking in call. And
that intensity is what gets the company
off the ground, right? That is the fuel.
And then at some point the rules reverse
>> and to become an owner, the founder has
to dismantle that identity. They've got
this identity. That's who they built
themselves into. And they have to
tolerate other people doing things
differently. They've got to lose the
dopamine of saving the day. They have to
let other employees become more
important or make mistakes, allow
customers to form relationships with
other people inside of their company
that they don't anymore. And then accept
that the ultimate evidence of their
success is that things can go perfectly
well without them. Right? Like this is
the arc. But the problem is
basically entrepreneurship rewards like
narcissistic levels of self-belief in
the beginning
>> and then ownership punishes narcissistic
levels of self-importance when you grow
up.
>> How does an owner know when they have
stopped being the hero and started being
the bottleneck? because everyone unless
you buy the business and I guess you can
leap frog and maybe basically get
yourself out of a little bit of the
founder mode because I wasn't there at
the very very beginning.
>> Mhm.
>> Lots of people are going to found
businesses. Many of them are going to
fail. Some of them are going to succeed.
For the ones that want to not fail.
How do you coach people through
relinquishing that control? They've
wrapped their existential sense of
well-being, their personality, their
psychic morphic resonance with the world
is all all contorted around this this
thing, right? I'm the guy. I took every
[ __ ] call. This podcast, I did
thousands and thousands and thousands of
ad reads. I signed every single invoice.
I made sure that every single guest was
booked for 800 episodes with no
assistance, like scheduling,
researching, booking things in, title,
thumbnail, everything. And now I need to
relinquish all of this stuff. How does a
business owner know when to let go of
being the hero because they become the
bottleneck?
>> Yeah. Well, I mean, first, our our line
at our company when we bring anybody on
to advise them is uh being the hero is
uh taking heroin. So, you you have an
addiction, it is to your business. And
if you continue to be the the hero,
that's a four-letter word at your
company. Actually, I think you need to
flip the entire script. This is super
unpopular, but of you know how people
used to say you have to serve your
employees. Well, actually the best way
to serve your employees is make sure you
don't flame out miraculously and not be
able to pay them and fail. And so your
employees actually have to serve you in
some ways. And they need to get on the
on the board with that. So that would be
first realize that being the hero is
actually heroin. The second is I don't
like to talk about it as founder versus
owner mode. I say are you self-employed
versus an owner. Self-employed is what
95% of businesses are. You know, most
businesses don't have any employees, and
even the ones who do, you have such
micromanagement oversight on the
business that you're addicted to Slack,
your wife and your friends know it, and
you feel good every time you get the
dopamine hit of a ping.
>> And so, if that is you, then the
question is, well, what is the opposite
of that?
>> And the only reason I can own a ton of
businesses today is because I never want
to be self-employed again. It was
miserable. I mean, it probably led to me
not being able to get pregnant for so
long and and be congratulations.
>> Oh, thank you. [snorts] Um, I think it
led to stress of of, you know, feeling
like for the last 5 years, what if the
business couldn't go on without me?
Meanwhile, it's growing faster than
ever. So, if you say the difference
between self-employed and owner is
really two things. One, if you're
self-employed, that means that either
the fulfillment of the product, the
sales of the product, or the
distribution of the product falls
entirely in your hands. If any one of
those three falls entirely in your
hands, you're still self-employed. We
got to remove those first. And then if
you want to be an owner, actually, that
means you have to have the number one
things most business owners don't have,
which is transparency. I do not believe
you should hire great people and get the
[ __ ] out of their way. I used to. That's
a that's actually a disaster because
they're never going to care totally as
much as you about your business. So, you
need to have a way to see under the hood
and see a dashboard. I think most owners
are flying in a in an airplane without a
cockpit. without a cockpit and without a
dashboard.
>> And so I think the way for you to move
from founder mode and self-employed to
owner mode would be what if you could
see inside of your business the most
important metrics every single day and
you could see the two type of scorecards
that matter. Activity based which you
can control. So has my team reached out
to all the people that they need to. Um
has my team done a number of cold calls,
emails, right? So that's activity based.
And then outcome based are we hitting
our revenue goals? Are we hitting our
close goals? Is our conversion rate
right? Is our churn down, etc. Most
people only measure the outcome based
goals with very few predictions. So,
it's hard for them to project out what
the future might look like. Very few
people measure activity and outcome and
have forward-looking projections. And
so, I think you'll know you're an owner
when those three three things aren't
completely reliant on you and you have a
c cockpit and a dashboard and you can
actually see where the business is
going.
>> This sounds really complex to build. It
sounds like a big unwieldy huge [ __ ] off
database and I'm tracking all of this
stuff and like what am I gonna have to
get McKenzie in to build this for me?
>> Question. Absolutely not. Your business
should really run on two main ores in my
mind. I don't believe in north stars
because
>> imagine you're like in a boat with your
team. Have you ever talked to the team
and and they feel like they're like
Chris I feel whiplashed in my business.
Like one day you say revenue, next day
you're like where are our follower
metrics? like, "Fuck, our followers are
down, but our revenue is really up.
We're annoying them too much with our
ads, right?" And so the team's like,
"Come on." It's like, you know, you're
like pulling a boat like this, left,
right, left, right? If you actually want
to win in business, you have to set
expectations with your employees. And
you tell them, "Hey, imagine you're in a
boat and you only have one ore. What
happens?" Well, you go in a [ __ ]
circle. You can't go anywhere. So, we
can't only focus on revenue. That would
be great if we could. We have to focus
on some top offunnel metric. Maybe
that's followers, leads, etc. And so
most businesses have two metrics that
you can run your entire business on. And
if you find those, then your dashboard
can actually be pretty chill. Takes a
little work to figure out the two of
them,
>> but most businesses and and they're not
always revenue and followers. It might
be if you're an auto mechanic, you might
actually care about what is the average
order value that every car has that
comes through. And you might care about
car count, how many cars come through in
total. And if you just nail those two
things, you'll know if your business is
winning or losing
>> and that should be it. But most business
owners don't even know that.
>> That's outcome, right? The what about
the other side? Cuz linking all of these
together, maybe Okay, so what are the
determinant factors that decide how many
calls come through? Well, maybe it's
outbound calls that we've been sending.
Maybe it's the amount of money that
we've spent on a home postal campaign.
Maybe it's how good this sign twirler
dude out on the street is. Well, maybe,
but usually it's everything's Parto's
principle, right? So, the 8020 rule is
almost everywhere. Most of us get
overwhelmed because we try to do 552
things and then realize that like, no,
Facebook ads typically cold calls are
going to drive most of my conversion and
my leads.
>> So, how we like to run scorecards is you
have your two or up top. So, now you
know it's car count plus its average
order value. So, how much people give
you each time they they pay. Then those
go down to each of your teams. And so
every one of your teams, if it's your
sales team, they're going to have two
metrics and that's probably going to be
leads and it's probably going to be
conversion rate or something like that.
So, you know, you kind of think about it
like a little drop down, but there are
only really seven parts or business
units in every business from finance to
ops to marketing to sales. So, that
means like you're going to have 14
metrics, but you're going to have a
leader in charge of each one of them.
That actually is a really clean way to
run a business. And you'll be wrong
sometimes, and that's okay. But at least
you'll know at any given point there's
two [ __ ] things we care about at the
company overall, only two. And
everything number-wise that you guys
care about needs to roll up to those
two.
>> And if it doesn't roll up to those two,
don't talk to me about it until we're
hitting like $100 million in revenue
because we don't have enough cash to do
it.
>> And that makes it a lot easier, at least
from what we've seen for running
businesses.
>> How much are you thinking about the
introduction of AI at the moment in
businesses? Because as far as I can see,
lots of people get very excited about
it. It's super super sexy. There's this
stat, 76% of small businesses now use AI
per Goldman Sachs. 10,000 small business
voices survey, yet only 14% have it
fully embedded in core operations. And
from the same study, they said
everyone's dabbling in almost nobody has
actually rebuilt their operations around
it. I don't know
if trusting AI to run a business is a
good idea right now because it might be
a dangerous place to leverage. We don't
know where that's going to go in future.
There's this claw erase an entire
company's database and all of its
backups. There's still an awful lot of
concern. Talk to me about how you think
about using AI in new small businesses.
>> Yes, you do. I mean, it would be a
terrible idea to let AI run your entire
business. Like, it would be an
absolutely awful idea. One one I mean,
have you tried to have AI just write you
something on one-shoted? It's the most
AI slop. I mean, how much do you want to
die every time from an employee? You get
a list of questions and it's it's not X,
it's Y, and it's same same, and it's
rules of three, right? It's awful. That
is like the number one way to not make
more money as an employee is to like
oneshot writing to your boss. Um, I
don't know. The data says that actually
AI is not that important for most small
businesses, which is super counter to
the narrative. You know what's a lot
more important? Answering your [ __ ]
phone, responding to emails, answering
text. Most small businesses respond on
average 18 to 24 hours after they get a
lead. And the crazy part is most small
business owners will fight with me on
that. And so, you know, if
>> are they saying that that's too long or
too short?
>> Oh, we respond right away. We respond
immediately. No, you don't.
>> And so, if it's me and I'm choosing
between AI and response time, it's
response time all day. Like what if all
you need so they say that most small
businesses 80% of the reason why you win
versus somebody else is that you just
respond faster or you come up quicker,
right? That's why point of sale is so
important at the grocery store. That's
why the first plumber who responds back
to you is going to win.
>> And yet we spend all this time AI
optimizing from all these nerds on
Twitter. Yeah. No. So, I I I'm an
absolute for most small business owners,
you need to earn the right to use AI by
doing like standard business practices
and then you can play around with all
this fancy stuff.
>> Such a good point. You know,
[clears throat and cough] it makes me
think about one of the best hacks that
we realized when we started running
business, which is pay invoices as
quickly as possible.
>> If you are um every business needs a
graphic designer, you need some new
stuff making for you. If you pay,
the guy sends the final version of the
flyer through and you've done a ton of
amends. No, [ __ ] I'm sorry, mate. It
was a nightmare. I'm really, really glad
that we got there. Thank you. Paid that
moment, that day. If you're the person
that pays quickly, the next time that
you need to go back to that graphic
designer, they will remember, [ __ ] I
didn't even need to chase him.
>> Like, or if you're pushing them for the
invoice, hey, hey, get it over now cuz I
want to get it paid two [ __ ] day.
>> That in my experience has put us
straight to the top of the list. because
even if we're just getting charged the
same rate as everybody else, they know
that we're easy to deal with. Yeah,
cool. Maybe there's a little bit of pain
in the, you know, you got to be a little
bit charming on the back end. Um, that's
one. And here's the other one, which is,
I guess, I don't know whether this puts
you in the realm of owner, but certainly
gets your foot in the door in rooms that
you shouldn't be in. And this was the
way that most of the guys that I've
worked with have ended up getting in
with me. If you're good at something and
you say to someone, I'm going to come
and work for you. I'm a videographer. I
want to work for you as this particular
person. I'm going to come across and I'm
going to work for you for 30 days. I'm
just going to do it. I'm going to give
you everything in 30 days time. If
you're as good as you say you are,
they're not going to be able to let you
go. They're going to have to have to pay
you. And you can call it out. We do this
with partners. I don't really talk about
the way that I do deals on the show that
much, but one of the ways that I've
always done them is, hey, I'm going to
do probation period with you. I'll do 90
days or 6 months, and once that's done,
I'm going to give you the deal of a
lifetime. I'm going to give you way less
than you should. In 6 months time, I'm
going to come to you with my hand out,
and you're going to have to pay me, and
I'm going to make you pay, but I'm going
to tell you that this is what's going to
happen. I'm going to call out the game
and if I don't deliver, I've taken on
all of the risk. And this is the way
that we used to get deals back in the
day. Between those two things, you're
someone that has a skill that you think
this person needs. If you can go to them
and say, "I'm going to do it for you
because I care about what you do and I'm
going to show you that you need me."
They can't not pay you at the end. If
you're as good as you say you are, they
can't not pay you. Same thing goes for
if you're going to pitch somebody to go
and give some sort of a service to their
business. I think that I can do this
thing. They don't want to let you go.
And there's this weird
karmic psychological debt that we have
where you go, "Fuck damn it. He put his
money where his mouth was and he
actually delivered what he said he did."
So that's on both sides. If you're
somebody that wants to get into the
room, just work for free for 30 days. Or
if you're trying to get a deal across
the line, say, "I'm going to give you a
deal of a lifetime and in 30, 60, 90, 6
months, whatever. I'm going to come in
my hand out and I'm going to make you
pay for it, but you're going to want
to." Or on the other side, if you're
somebody that pays invoices, just pay
the [ __ ] thing straight away. Those,
at least for me, have been step change
business hacks that have have just keep
on working. I can't believe they keep on
working two decades later, but they do.
>> Yeah. Well, I mean that goes back to the
law of reciprocity. Like why when you go
to the car dealership do they give you a
hot dog and a Coca-Cola even though most
the time you don't buy a car? Because
actually there is an innate human belief
that if somebody gives us something,
we've got to give them something in
return.
>> I owe you.
>> Yeah. And the higher the value to what
you give, the higher the, you know,
belief that I have to give you something
in return. I think the law of
reciprocity is super underused in both
sales and employment. We also something
I think it's chapter seven in the book
which is all about pitch and um what
I've realized is like most people don't
show enough proof. We talk about having
a proof vault. Like there is nothing you
can say to me now with how the internet
is and the lack of trust that exists
that would be stronger than you showing
me right now live what this tastes like.
Showing me right now live what somebody
looks like who just had it. So why so
often do we yap so much and show so
little? And I think if you want to get a
job and you want to get paid really
quickly, one of the best ways to do it,
even if they don't want to work for 30
days, because people will pillar for us
and they'll say, "Must be nice, you
know, Chris and Cody, you're so rich and
so that's why you could do that." I
don't think that's true. I did a bunch
of free work when I was super poor. But
um I like people to show me in Loom
videos. I'm like, what's the point of an
interview anymore? I mean, there's no
point in submitting résumés. like we get
probably 2,000 résumés for u individual
jobs that we have open across our
companies. That's insane. So instead, uh
I like when they show me and like what
would that mean? Well uh let's say
you're a saleserson. Show me what your
calendar looks like. Just like pull up
Google and be like these are all the
calls I have every day. Here's how I
stack them. You know, show me the list
of people that you re reached out to.
Show me your process and your CRM for
that works. You don't even have to do a
project for me. Just show me how the
[ __ ] you work right now. Great. Most
people can't do that. And then second
would be, "All right, now show me what
you would do with what I got." And that
would be like, "Give me a project." So
most people that we hire have to do a
project. We do it paid. Uh because I
don't want to mess with getting yelled
at. But something really tiny to show,
yeah, yeah, I can watch me. Here's how
I'd put together your 30-day sales
process if I was going to do it.
>> So I think if you don't sell enough
right now in business, you don't have
enough proof.
>> You don't have enough show don't tell.
and you probably don't have enough. Show
me right now what you could do for me.
With AI, you could do almost all of
that. Show me a clean house. Take a
photo of my, you know, house from Google
Maps and show me what it would look like
if you painted it. You know that this
like one step further than the next guy
will help you close so much more. Maybe
that's one way to use AI really cheaply
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That's drinklnt.com/botmism.
How do you advise people to go about
finding the right talent? Because I do
think that a big bottleneck that
business owners feel is this is my
[ __ ] baby. And I'm terrified of
giving it over to someone that I don't
trust fully and I've been burned in the
past because people have made promises
when I was earlier and greener in my
business career. And the first person
that I hired, that was a nightmare. And
then I tried to get a family member and
that was a nightmare. And what's the
80/20 rules of finding
and training great staff?
>> Yeah. Well, I would say one, your first
hires are almost always going to suck
because you kind of suck when you start.
So, just don't feel bad for hiring bad
people in the beginning. That's totally
natural and you're probably not going to
do much about that. Um, we have
something called the hiring matrix,
which is basically
this is so there's three steps to
finding great people, right? Or getting
great people. First, you got to find
them, but you can't really find them
until you know what they look like. And
then you got to know how to close them.
So, it's like, what do they look like?
How do you find them? How do you close
them? Those are the three steps to
finding great people. Most people say,
"I can't find great people anywhere."
And that's cuz they don't know what
they're looking for. It's like chicks on
dating websites saying, "I want 65, blue
eyes, whatever that whole thing was."
that's not actually what you want. So
now you're you're reverse optimizing for
something that's not good. So first we
have something called the known
candidate matrix and basically it's five
things that will tell you whether this
person has a high likelihood of being
successful in your business or not. One
is proven experience. They've already
done this task before. They've been a
CEO before or a CFO before. Uh two is
sector experience. They've worked in
your specific sector. Three is size.
they didn't work at Google and you're a
startup because that would be a big jump
between the three of them. They have a
problem set that they have already
nailed. So you could hire somebody from
a startup that's have proven experience
that is in your sector but uh they were
in charge of a growth company and yours
is a turnaround. You got [ __ ] sideways.
Somebody's got to fix it. And then uh
the last one is does this person know
anybody in your sphere? So you can get a
real gauge on if they're good or not.
And so that's called known candidate.
>> So they, you know, I like to rank those
all as fives. A top performing candidate
is going to be a 25. A bottom performing
one's going to be a zero.
>> And what we've seen across hiring
thousands of people for these companies
is if you can, the higher you can rank
on that, the more likelihood you are to
win over time. Um, so that's one. It's
like, how do you know what a cheetah
looks like? You got to figure out that
it's got spots, right? And then the
second is you got to figure out if you
want cheetahs or house cats. So, I think
most employees are house cats. They're
like 9 to5. They work in this realm.
They don't want to work too much harder
than that. They're not going to go out
and like find their meals. The cheetah
is going to be your 20%. Those are going
to be your killers. They're really going
to really go after it. But you don't
need a whole company full of cheetahs. I
think that's a misnomer. They're really
expensive.
>> Um, they're hard to manage. Uh, you
should hire divas every time you can
because actually divas are the ones that
perform over time, but you're going to
hear the most complaints about them
because we're impossible. Anybody who's
really good is impossible to manage. You
should
>> I'm a dream. I don't know what you're
talking about.
>> There's no way. I bet you're so
[laughter] I love the team actively
laughing.
>> Shut up, dude.
>> Shut up. [gasps]
>> We're a nightmare, but you're so good
that you will put up with your [ __ ]
when you're a diva or an A player. And
and that's okay. So you you couldn't
have a company of 80% of them because
you drive uh everybody crazy.
>> Um and because most people fill roles
once you have a system and a set
incentive stack, you're like they don't
have to be amazing because you go you do
this and then you do this and if you do
that you get that. Um and then the third
thing is how do you natur now actually
go out and like figure out if these
people exist in the world. That's the
hardest part. The only way that we've
found to do it really consistently is
first is referrals, second is
recruiters, then third is websites. I
think recruiters are really underused
right now. They're expensive, but
they're so worth it. And your best
recruiters ever will be your employees.
And that will be because you've built a
culture that isn't terrible
>> and they will come because they want to
work with other people just like you.
>> What are the biggest wastes of time in
hiring? what are the the um unnecessary
traditions or or things that people feel
like they need to do as a part of the
process?
>> That's a great point. Um one, don't do
hourlong interviews ever. I would never
ever have an hourlong meeting to recruit
somebody until I know that I'm obsessed
with them and I want to have them on at
Yeah. And even then, I'm probably
setting it as a 30 45 minute meeting.
And you can extend if you want to, but I
think 15minute meetings are totally
underutilized. Like, isn't that weird?
Why when you get into corporate do they
tell you when let's follow up on that
when next week like why why did we
decide next week let's set a meeting for
that it's an hour or 30 minutes why is
that what the meeting necessitated so I
think half of this is getting to like
the first principles of everything in
business which is how do I do the most
amount of stuff in the least amount of
time
>> and kind of not apologize for it
>> and so in our hiring process we're very
particular about like hey these meetings
are really short to the point when I get
on there's not a lot of chitchatting I'm
like, "Hey, how's it going? You mind if
I get right in?" Amazing. Bam, bam, bam,
bam, bam. The second thing is like, you
are really hiring wrong. If you don't
have a list of questions that you ask
and everybody on the team has set
questions, they're not the same. And all
the notes get accumulated. You could
throw that into AI and they all get
stackranked and scored. Everybody says
they do this for hiring. Nobody does
this for hiring.
>> What are your favorite questions to ask
candidates?
>> Yeah, I mean, my favorite question, it's
not just a question. It's I want to get
an answer. Like if you want to find an A
player, by and large, an A player is
determined by how hard of things have
they ever done. Have you done something
really hard? And
uh the other the other probably month or
two ago, we had one candidate I really
liked, smart lady, going to be super
competent in marketing. And I asked her,
I was like, "Tell me about what's the
hardest thing that you know you've done
lately? Like give me the last 90 days.
What has like kept you up at night? what
has pushed you further than you thought?
>> Just let me know.
>> And she said, "Well, I did. I went on a
really hard uh hot yoga retreat." And I
thought, "Well, [ __ ] You're not gonna
make it because if that's the hardest
thing you've done is go on a hot yoga
retreat, which I would deem a vacation,
um, you probably wouldn't like this job
very much."
>> And so, um, I think you want to try to
figure out when was the last time they
stayed up all night, like if you want a
high performer.
>> Yep. Um, and so a lot of times that's a
really good question to ask. Like, when
was the last time you couldn't go to
sleep because you wanted to work on
something so badly and you can just tell
in their eyes if they're slow to respond
or if they're like, well, you know,
yeah, I don't know, you know, oh, I
needed to
>> sister's bachelorette party was getting
the flights were a little Sorry, no,
>> that's not a winner. And so that's super
unpopular. People don't like to hear
that and I'll I'll probably get in
trouble because people say it's too hard
to work in my company. But the flip side
is like good like if people like we also
have something called the anti-ell. I
learned this from Amjad who I think
you've had on here too from Replet.
>> No.
>> Oh, he's amazing. I can make an intro if
you ever want but fastest company from
zero to billion dollars uh in sales in
like that period of time. Not since the
beginning of $0 cuz he went like eight
or eight or nine years was $0 in
revenue.
Um, John has something called the anti-
sale for new employees. And I think this
is super smart. If you go to his
website, and now if you go to mine too
because I stole it on there, it will
basically say um, do not join if you do
not love hard things that almost break
you. You know, do not join if you do not
want to be, uh, because this is big in
technology, if you do not want to be on
the frontier of open source as opposed
to closed source. So stuff that would be
really contentious, put it up front like
a billboard. I love I think one of the
best examples of this which you know
people on the left wouldn't like but is
Daily Wire on their website. It's so
good. Go to their recruiting page and it
will say it literally has the most
inappropriate meme that they've ever
done which well maybe not the most but
the him hers bars is like front and
center and they make some joke about
like you're not going to like it here if
you don't think this is a hysterical
test.
>> It's like a [ __ ] test.
>> Exactly.
>> It's a recruiting [ __ ] test.
>> And I think a lot of
>> you could do the same thing on the left.
You could do the exact You could do the
exact same thing if you were part of
like Navara Media in the UK or something
and you could have like if you don't
think this meme of Elon Musk's funny,
then go [ __ ] yourself.
>> Yeah. Orange man, make him do something
crazy on it. Uh but I think and now
maybe you don't want to go that
polarizing, which is probably a good
idea for most companies not to go that
polarizing, but go with what do your top
performers all agree with that your mid-
performers would actually get ticked off
about.
>> And that should be what you put on your
anti- sale. Yeah, I mean it works for
specific types of organizations.
Probably if you're uh hiring uh
aestheticians or or or salon workers and
stuff, you maybe don't need to have them
be cheetah energy in quite the same way,
but it would be something like um like
if you're obsessed with uh the newest
hairstyles that are coming out of
Hollywood, like if if you think that Oh,
you could I guess you could do it in
kind of a fun way. If you think that
Taylor Swift's got swag, then like this
place isn't where you should I don't
know like you know someone that's like
that's not cool. But I I remember this
such a like canonical example in my
learning about business was when Elon
bought Twitter
>> and he posted basically the same thing
and he said I'm looking for people that
want to try and attack the hardest
problems in the world. There's going to
be very little rest. There's going to be
very little restbite. you're going to
work harder on the biggest problems to
try and create the new town square. If
you're interested, apply here. Like
twitter.com/job or something. And there
was this big sort of fur around it. Him
saying it's going to be 80 or 90 hour
weeks. You're not going to get any spare
time. There's no PTO. There's no
nothing. You you you come here, your
eyes bleed, you go home, or you maybe
you don't go home. You just sleep under
the desk and you get back up again. But
what that didn't account for is there is
a cohort of people out there for whom
that sounds like a good time.
>> Yeah,
>> that actually is what you want. And in
the kind of the same way as who are you
to kink shame me like [laughter] don't
say that me me being walked on a leash
with a dog mask on is something that
shouldn't be allowed. Like that's what
I'm into. That's what they're into.
Yeah,
>> they're into that. And yeah, the world
is split into people who want to send it
professionally and people that don't.
And the people that don't kind of won't
really understand the people that do.
And that when when I saw that, it really
just reminded me, oh [ __ ] Like, you're
allowed to own your intensity.
You're allowed to own your intensity and
actively seeking people by positioning
you as not the opposite of it, right? Is
not gently gently into the night.
That's a really great way to say this is
what we stand for by this is what we
stand against.
>> Yeah. And I think like do you really not
like being intense or do you just not
like the things you're doing right now?
I actually would hazard to guess most
people if they could do the thing that
they really want to do deeply inside,
you would go full boore and do it. And
everybody has had that feeling before
where you get lost in something. You
lose track of time. You get into flow
state. You're obsessed with the thing
that you're making, building, reading,
watching, whatever.
>> But you haven't figured out a way yet to
do that for a living or to have some
aspect of that in what you do
>> that exists in your day-to-day life.
>> Yeah. And and and I think you can like I
don't love everything about running a
business. There's so many things I hate
about uh running a business and I just
try to do less of them. It's like are
you burnt out or you just not doing
enough of the things you actually like
to do?
>> I keep getting in trouble every time I
try and say this on the internet. So,
I'm going to try and do it again and get
in trouble again.
I don't think that introverts truly
exist, I think most people's friends
just suck. [laughter]
And every single time some [ __ ]
midwit that once watched a psychology
video goes, "Well, actually the the way
that it works with introversion and
extroversion is it's a measure of where
you take your energy from. It's whether
you take your energy from being on your
own or being around other people." I'm
like, "Okay, I [ __ ] know. All right,
I know the literature around
introversion and extroversion." My point
is that even the most introverted person
on the planet around the right group of
friends doesn't want to leave the
conversation. And I think it's the same
thing here.
>> I think you're right. Even the most
workshy, laxidasical, lazair, 300 pm
wake up, weed smoking person, if you
give them the right concoction of life,
will want to send it. That being said,
>> I also believe that there are some
people who are serial obsessives and
some people for whom the obsession the
obsessions are kind of once in a blue
moon. I'm someone that's been serially
obsessive across my life. I was obsessed
with getting in shape. I was obsessed
with running nightclubs. I was obsessed
with DJing. I was obsessed with
business. I got obsessed with CrossFit
and uh tie boxing and then yoga and then
podcasting and then moving to America.
Became obsessed with a country for a
while and became obsessed now with the
beverage industry and CPG and now I'm
obsessed with cinematography and bu okay
like and it's just been stacking these
things side by side. Fortunately for me,
it's been relatively linear. Like I
haven't bounced between
like whiplashed myself with very
speurious uh pursuits. Been relatively
linear. So I've kind of been able to
build a set of dominoes that almost
maybe even compounded.
Some people are like that, other people
less so. But and this is my like pitch
to people who have obsession. A lot of
the time I get messages saying, um, uh,
I'm obsessed with this thing and it's
kind of ruining my life and I can't
stop. I'm like,
>> that's not going to last forever.
>> That fuel is going to run out at some
point. And your fear is, I have no work
life balance and it's never going to
end. That's the concern. But the freest
discipline and motivation that you're
ever going to get is when you're
obsessed, right? This hierarchy of
discipline, motivation, and obsession.
It's all to do with friction. So, uh,
discipline is friction accepted.
I will pay the price. It's going to
hurt, but I'll pay it.
>> Motivation is friction removed. It's
like, I want to do this thing. And
obsession is friction inverted.
>> I can't not do this thing. I have to I'm
pulled toward it.
>> This is not going to last forever. Your
level of obsession around CrossFit or
tie boxing or your business or your
girlfriend like is not going to last
forever. So, like allow it to wear you
for a while. I think that it's cool to
be a serial obsessive because this
obsession is going to cool down into
it's going to harden and like oify into
what looks from the outside a lot like
your identity. After a while, what you
are is this the residue of your past
obsessions. Like previously you would
have been obsessed with business in a
manner that you're not anymore, but
there's elements of that that aren't
still active, but they're just a bit of
you. Like this, huh, they're just a part
of my personality. Anyway, no, I I think
you're I mean, I totally agree. The only
thing that I would add to it is like
I think you you have to have it's like
have you done what you want to do or
have you done what's required? And I
think a lot of times when you get
obsessed, you get selfish on the part of
it that you get obsessed with. And most
people don't think about how to connect
the dots to have a series of dominoes
that fall. So you get obsessed with one
thing, but you don't think at all about
stacking a bunch of chains so that you
actually build something that can create
leverage or pull for you over time. And
so you wouldn't be so freaked out about
being obsessed with something if you saw
that that obsession would lead to a
little bit more freedom eventually would
lead to a little bit more money would
lead to not a have to but a still want
to. And I think I've been there. I mean,
I've been in a business so miserable. I
wanted to get up making seven mini, many
seven figures a year, walk away from my
equity entirely because I was so
obsessed at some point. And I never
built the chain to where I had an out. I
just I built myself a really tall
pedestal I could not jump down from.
>> And I think that's the difference is
like, yes, be obsessed, but think about
the chain link. And like yours is like
that. Yeah, you're obsessed with
cinematography, but you're not like,
"Oh, [ __ ] the podcast. So, I'm going to
go start a documentary and never do this
again. You know, you link the two. Even
if you have that moment, I call it a
someday maybe list. Like I think if
you're a little bit add like I am and
you're always adding things to your
plate or you're getting distracted,
you've got the golden retriever thing. I
keep a little list on my phone. It's not
so little actually. It's huge. And on
it, it's called Someday Maybe. And on it
is a bunch of [ __ ] that I'd like to do
one day that I'm just not going to do
right now.
>> Well, like,
>> oh my god, everything like uh I do want
I want to own a puppy farm. I want I
want that's like my rich people [ __ ]
you know. Have you met a lot of like
rich people that do weird things?
>> Okay.
>> I never understand really. I'm not into
fantasy.
>> I'm looking for golden retriever breeder
at the moment. So, if you can hurry up
and get that sorted before
>> absolutely
>> December, January time, that
>> like I would like I that would be that's
like my retirement plan. I want to be
like Oprah Winfrey, not with golden
retrievers. Equal opportunity. We don't,
you know, we don't have dog specific
races. Okay.
>> But um but a lot of it would be like
write this next book, build this next
business, buy this next business. I've
bought a lot of businesses in my day. I
had to stop buying so many because they
didn't make sense for our new ecosystem.
And my team would yell at me like, can
we focus for a second? Because, you
know, focus is like a laser. You know,
the wider it is, the less intense it is.
And so, if you can narrow your focus,
you can really win. So, that would be my
only caveat is like be [ __ ] obsessed,
but try to figure out a way that can
lead to some freedom or some money for
you, cuz then it'll be an option in the
future.
>> Tell me if this sounds familiar. You
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Let's say someone someone who's running
their business has turned it into their
identity. What do people do with their
sense of self-importance if they slow
down or begin to use more leverage?
Because I think this is
this is one of the mistakes that people
make when they think about scaling up
inside of business. They assume that
doing less spit and sawdust work means
less importance, but it's actually more
leverage. And more leverage from the
outside looks less busy, but it's the
first time that someone has to face
themselves finally. They've got all of
this self-importance and now they're
slowing down, at least objectively.
How talk to me about the emotional
movement, the transition that people
need to go through there. Well, one I
would say if you are an obsessive type
of person, you're probably never going
to slow down. You're just going to
change lanes. So, instead of starting to
like going on the highway at 50 m hour
when the speed limit's 75, you might
never like that, but you won't feel like
you have to go 75 on something that you
don't want to. So, realize that you can
always just change lanes. Um,
>> what would be an example of that?
>> An example would be in your business
right now, you might be what we call a
ball hog that closes every deal. like
every deal has to go through you. You're
the one that gets the sponsors. You're
the one that gets the partnerships. You
close all the deals. And if you stop
doing that or that you're going to be
seen as a sales god anymore, you know,
or you're gonna transition these
relationships and and then you're not
going to have them anymore because other
people are going to steal them from you.
You just offload that one part of it and
instead you go, okay, I was pretty good
at selling onetoone. What about selling
one to many? Let's do content now. Could
I figure out how to do that? So just
change L slightly, add a new skill that
has higher leverage cuz really you can
only like business only is so many
things which is really can I sell
something for more money that I pay for
it. Like that's kind of it. And so if
that's all business is then we can just
change the seven, you know, uh segments
of the business and do a different part
of them.
>> It could allow you to go and learn how
to write more. It could allow you to go
and hire people better. Um, but I guess
the only thing I'll say about like that
deep dark part of you that feels like if
you no longer are the man, you aren't a
man or, you know, a woman at all
anymore. I I think for that you've got
to ask yourself,
what do you think is more valuable? A
business where you can take it and sell
a job to another human, jobs aren't
transferable, or a business where it's
so good, you are so good, the business
runs without you. And I think the usual
like the way that I usually can get out
of being upset about something like that
or worried about my identity is I look
at a person in the future that I'd like
to be like in that business sense. So,
you know, I the the goat is obviously
Warren Buffett. You know, he sort of
religiously talks about how little he
does. Does anybody think less of the
man? No. So, like it only takes one
example to go, "Oh, that's a complete
mental fallacy I have. Why did I hold on
for so long to something that is so not
true?
It's interesting the Puritan work ethic
which coming from the northeast of the
UK is almost like a religion.
>> Yeah.
>> Uh you know good example of that from my
last industry was we would run
nightclubs and as a club promoter you
don't own the venue but you have
marketing and networks and 500 staff
that bring their friends down and you
know DJs and you know social media and
you people think you're cool. And then
you have venues. venues have got a
building and a license and door staff
that punch people and you know speakers
and DJs and stuff like that and the gap
in between building with no one in it
and people who want to party that's
where the relationship lies
>> there is no [ __ ] reason that I need
to be on the front door of a nightclub
certainly not on the front door if
anything I need to be down in the DJ
booth so I can see what's going on
what's the atmosphere did that most
recent pyrochnic show go off correctly
what's happening with the till have we
got you know the rest of this stuff my
side you sort with the bar keep the
[ __ ] lights on I'll do everything
else. Just get out of my way. Problem
is, if it's the middle of November, it's
freezing [ __ ] cold in Newcastle, and
the manager of the venue is outside to
make sure that his big hairy door staff
don't punch seven shades of [ __ ] out of
everybody,
>> he expects me to be out there as well
>> because there is this
if you're not suffering along with me,
you're not in it with mentality.
And that took so long to unwind. And
lots of businesses I think still have
this if I achieved it but I didn't
suffer it didn't matter or it doesn't
count if I don't see you
proitizing yourself you know a
prostrating yourself sorry on the
[ __ ] crucifix altar of whatever this
business is you need to be the first
person in and the last person out and
yes you for a very long time you do and
the kernels of truth
>> that are in this are why it's so
penicious because you're like I do know
that and also Oh, by the way, I'm trying
to hire the cheetah that is staying up
all night to do this thing. After a
while, you can't lead from the front
anymore. And that took a very long time
for me to unwind. And also separating
out, especially if you've got other
parties that are in and around this.
You've got maybe uh uh uh partnerships
outside of that, like working on the
front door of a nightclub. It's like,
hey, I need to have a really serious
conversation with where my value adds
here. It is not my highest point of
contribution for me to be stood on the
front door at 1 in the morning freezing
my tits off with you. My highest point
point of contribution is to be dealing
with DJs and bookings and making sure
that the accounts are right 9:00 a.m.
tomorrow. So, we need to change the way
that this works. But that um Puritan
work ethic and unwinding it is
very diffic it's very very difficult.
>> If I might make a suggestion, I think it
always works the best when you don't
make it about you, you make it about
them. I try in my conversations with my
team to almost say nothing about what my
highest value is. Instead, my
conversation with your door man would
probably go something like this. I'd be
like, "All right, Brad, dude, freezing
out there today. It's going to be
intense. People are going to be rowdy.
You're probably going to want to hit
them in the fakes. I feel like I should
be out there, but I know that you've
been doing this for x number of months
now. Like, you're a pro. You don't
actually want me over your shoulder
doing that with you because you want us
to earn more, bring more people in, get
the club full. Is that is that right?
You'd have to know that that is what he
wants.
>> Yeah, I actually do want that. You know,
or you know that like God, we're having
problems in the back end. I can't get
them to spend enough. I'm going to go
back there. I'm going to try to like get
them do bottles, sell it.
>> That's what I'm going to do instead of
>> Exactly. and you are getting their buy
in to your highest and best use as
opposed to saying my highest and best
use. What do we always like to hear?
One, we like to hear ourselves talk. And
two, we like to believe everything's our
idea, not somebody else's idea, right?
So, if you can get your employees to
think it is a good idea for you to not
be there, that's when you get them. And
then again, you go back to that like
five quadrant. If you know Brad really
cares about money, you play with money
with Brad. If you know Brad really cares
about relevance, he's like, I [ __ ]
Chris, I don't need this. I don't need
you over you think you're a tough like
listen I'm not actually as tough as you
do it and so I think we don't sell
enough inside of our companies we don't
sell enough to our bosses to our
co-workers we try to do two things I see
it all the time we try to be a dictator
to our employees you have to do this why
haven't you done this or we try to be a
doormat which is like okay I'll do it
I'll I'll be fine you're either a
dictator or you're a doormat between
>> the two extremes
>> exactly [laughter] probably most of us
do that and employees do it too. As
opposed to why aren't you trying to be
so persuasive to the people around you
in business that you can get them to do
the things they want to do without them
even realizing that it was your idea,
not theirs. That is when you really win
in business. And it takes a minute. In
the beginning of this, I had to do a ton
of psychological sales. I had to learn
about priming, you know, which, you
know, I had to learn about, okay, when I
have this conversation with Brad, I'm
actually not going to do it when he's
outside and it's cold and he's already
pissed. I'm going to do it when he's
inside. Feels good. I'm going to bring
him up a hot coffee. I'm going to be
like, "Brad, let's sit down and have a
conversation. Take a seat off for a
second." Right? That's called set and
setting. I'm going to prime him to feel
like he's really important. We're having
an intimate conversation. And then I'm
going to send him off there. You know,
it's the same way with your your
significant other. Like, how many times,
I'm sure you never have you had a fight
with your significant other or
girlfriend, right?
>> [gasps]
>> and she's pissed and raging at you and
you're like let me rationally talk to
you about this and this is why all the
reasons that I'm right and she listens
to you like that doesn't happen you know
it doesn't so when would be a better
time you listen and then the second
you're no longer pissed you hand her a
glass of wine you two sit down you're
like let's talk about this this is kind
of my perspective so with your team
think about do you really need to be the
hero and do they want that from you or
you just not a good sales person yet to
them.
>> What about the other side? What about
disciplining staff saying, "Hey, look,
Brad, we need to have a really serious
conversation here that things aren't
going well and I need to really tell you
where I'm at." How do you think about
broaching that? [snorts]
>> I think most people quit jobs because
they have terrible bosses. And their
terrible bosses are not bad because they
overly discipline them. They're bad
because they never tell them the truth.
They gaslight them. They tell you that,
you know, you're winning even when
they're not. They wuss out on tough
conversations and they don't tell you
how to win. They just tell you why
you're not winning. And I think we've
all had that. I think most people don't
like conflict. And most people's leaders
are not good leaders because it takes a
lot of training.
>> What's your advice for leaders that
don't like conflict and how can they get
better at it?
>> You sit down, you don't think about it
as conflict. You sit down and say, "I
want to have a conversation and I'd like
us both to win. You know, I'm the leader
over this. I have these metrics for you
as an employee. I have these metrics for
me as a manager. You're not hitting
these metrics, which means I can't hit
these metrics. What's going on? And
you're going to listen to a lot of
stuff. And you're going to say, "Well,
at the company, you know that we work on
90-day plans. I run all of our
businesses on 90-day sprints. It's kind
of like our core owner beyond. And the
reason why is humans work in cycles,
right? Uh birth, you know, growth,
decay, winter, summer, spring, fall. And
uh quarterly cycles work really well for
businesses. And so you would sit down
and say over this 90-day period, we got
to start hitting these numbers. And if
we don't, how do you think I could keep
running a business in which our team
doesn't hit their 90-day numbers? Do you
think we could keep doing that and
paying everybody? What are they going to
say? No. Okay. So, over the next 90
days, we're going to check in every 30
days, and if I if we don't keep hitting
these numbers, I can't keep you here.
Like, that's reasonable, right? Am I
crazy? Should there be a way that I can
keep you even if you don't hit all the
numbers? Well, what about this? What
about this? Hey, listen. We have to be
fair to everybody. You might be my
favorite person, but if you're not doing
it, I can't just say that's okay for
you. So, we're going to check in every
30 days and we're going to see if we're
hitting these numbers or not. And this
is so foreign to most people because
it's a bunch of PC [ __ ] in
corporations about, well, I don't feel
like you're doing that well and Sally
said and HR is in the middle. Like how
often have you just sat down and said,
"Here's what you're supposed to do.
You're not doing X. Either why not? What
can I do for it? And how do we fix it by
90 days? Otherwise, we got to part ways
because maybe you'll go be a superstar
somewhere else."
>> What are the things that a founder
should stop personally approving first?
>> Oh god. Yeah. Um, well, let's do a
general list. If you're a founder doing
this currently, you're doing
administrative work uh at a minimum wage
of a virtual assistant, which would be
responding to emails by and large that
needs to go immediately. Uh if you are
doing any sort of automated reporting
for your business, so reading out of
numbers, scorecards, etc. See that a lot
in businesses. Uh if you are approving
any invoice that is less than depending
on the size of the business, 1 to 10% of
your revenue. If it's a really small
business, that's why it could go up to
10%. That's probably not something you
should be doing continuously. And you
should be using something like ramp,
which I don't have any affiliation with,
but can track all of your expenses of
your employees instead. Uh, and then
probably the next thing that you need to
be doing is thinking about how many
employees I also think we were told a
big lie as leaders and the lie was you
should have an open door policy.
You should be available for everybody on
your team, but an open door policy just
means that you are on everybody else's
schedule, not your own. And as an
employee, I think you should guard
against it, too. You shouldn't allow
people access to you every second of
every day continuously. Instead, you
need to set up ways and means to get to
you only when they have what we call the
three, which is basically problem,
potential solution, risks to potential
solutions. that if you have those three
things, let's talk. And if you're just
bringing me a problem, you're not ready.
Go back and work on it a little bit.
>> Mhm.
>> But all of this stuff is so hard because
you sound like a hard ass when you say
all of it. And then everybody's like,
"She sucks. Be a terrible leader. That
would be the worst." But I think the
worst leaders actually are the ones that
seem nice and then never help you make
more money, never help you progress in
your career, never help you get better,
never help you get promoted. What a
[ __ ] tragedy. who wants to work for
that person.
>> And I think that's most people and then
they wonder why they hate their job and
don't make as much money as they want.
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wisdom. Why do you think so many
entrepreneurs are afraid to charge more?
>> Oh, yeah. Well, I don't think you have a
pricing problem. I think you have a
confidence problem. I mean, one of the
first things I said to one of the
business owners in our group was, I can
tell about your lack of confidence in
yourself and your business by your
price. Because most people price
according to market pricing. Like here
are what other people charge. Well, why
do you think other people have any
[ __ ] idea how to charge in your
space? They don't. Everybody's just
guessing by and large. And most people
haven't done any research at all. So
people one don't have confidence. Two,
they don't do market they do market pace
pricing. And three, they don't
understand value based pricing, which is
basically I give this much value in
savings or in revenue or in freedom or
whatever it is, and I'm going to take
somewhere between 10 and 30% of that
value that I drive you. That's just like
the number. But when you look at how
many business owners actually do that,
we all are so scared of getting told no
ever since like our first high school
date told us that we couldn't that I
think it translates straight through to
our prices. And then pernitiously a lot
of us as entrepreneurs have a murder
complex where we think it is good for us
to not charge
>> charitable.
>> Yeah. That means I'm a good person. I
don't sell to you know I don't sell
expensive things so I'm good.
>> Get the [ __ ] money.
>> Get the [ __ ] money.
>> Get the [ __ ] money
>> and don't now don't sell a shitty
service. That's what you should be
worried about. Do not provide enough
value. But you should never worry about
do I charge too much. If you provide
enough value the the price spectrum is
unlimited. Last thing I'll say on this
is kind of nerdy but we break it down is
this wallet share phenomenon. Have you
heard of this?
>> No.
>> So fascinating study that basically says
basically saw you put a group of pricing
experts in a room many many times over
and normal people in a room and you knew
a couple things about them. You knew
what they were worth so and how much
they made per year. Net worth and
income. You would think that the pricing
experts across net worth and income
would be better at determining the right
price for something than a group of
random people, right? Yeah, that's their
job.
>> Well, it turns out those people were no
better at pricing than the random
people. In fact, they actually priced
about 15% lower than the random group.
Why? because of something called the
wallet share phenomenon, which is most
people will only price about 10 to 15%
higher or lower than what they could
afford. And this happens across almost
every business.
>> So you are actually restricted by your
amount of money you make without even
realizing it. It's a subconscious bias.
But sitting out there is somebody like
Chimath who would spend a bajillion
dollars on a sweater and you can't even
conceptualize why that would be worth it
to somebody. And so in business right
now, you got to ask yourself one, what's
holding you back because of how much you
make, but even more so, what about the
other people on your team? Because
they're probably employees on average
have a 30% lower pricing range than
owners think they do.
>> So your employees are dragging down your
profits by 30%. You don't even realize
it, which is when I heard that I went
and analyzed our business and saw, oh my
god, it was the same for me.
>> And so that's a good realization to
have. You don't have a pricing problem,
you have a confidence problem.
>> So many people are undercharging. God,
almost all of my friends, especially
people in in service businesses. Oh,
yeah.
>> Right. It is insane.
I have a couple of friends who've done
features on records. These records have
gone on to do tens of millions or
hundreds of millions of plays. So,
they're an integral part of a unique
part of a of a music track. And
>> [clears throat]
>> the [ __ ] like even in retrospect
they're not thinking I undercharge for
that like dude this is one of the
biggest things that's ever happened
and you still can't bring yourself the
next time that the opportunity comes
around to to like turn the screws on.
It's almost like you want to shake
people and go like you don't understand
how good you are at what you do.
>> Yeah,
>> you can charge more. Well, so that's
fascinating because that's why we do
this thing called ownerscore that I was
telling you about before this. And if
you go to ownerscore.com, it's free. You
can do it. But basically, those people
are usually either the artist or the
dreamer. And and so it's funny because
they literally are an artist in this
instance.
>> But the artist almost always underprices
in everything that they do. And so even
if they're at the top of the food chain
in their industry, they have a
prediliction to think charging more is
actually greedy. And so the interesting
part about business, the part that like
kind of got me ticked off at some point
is I started thinking, have you ever
started watching like uh really good
business people online and you're like
Elon Musk? And uh you're like, well, if
I just follow Elon's directions, then my
business will grow. Like I'm just going
to listen to his advice because he's a
mega billionaire. Well, that's sort of
problematic for a lot of reasons because
one, you and I aren't as good as Elon
Musk, right? Like, if we were, we'd be
billionaires. We're we're not. He's an
anomaly. Second is I don't want his
life. Like, with much love, we know a
lot of people in common. I'm happily
married. I'm going to have a kid. I like
to hang out a little bit. Like, I want
to enjoy life. I want to be fit. Not
now, but again, eventually. And so, it
doesn't work on two fronts. I'm not
Elon. Plus, I don't want his life. And
so, if you take business advice from
somebody whose life you don't want and
who has skill sets you don't have,
you'll be [ __ ] Even if the business
advice is great. And so, I was like,
God, we have like these thousands of
companies. Why could I have HVAC HVAC
HVAC company, all the same information,
same revenue, same team, and there's
total variance?
>> Wildly different performance.
>> It's because of the founder, right? But
if I know, hey, founder A is an artist,
so he's probably underpricing just at
the gun, then I can have different
advice for him than I can have for
closer founder, which I know probably
doesn't have as good of fulfillment or
creative in his business. And so like it
seems standard except nobody does it.
Everybody starts with what's the best
business advice I can do
>> as opposed to like who are you?
>> It's one size fits all.
>> Yeah. And I just don't think that works.
And you there are some core business
principles but you have to apply them to
who you are as a human otherwise you'll
be miserable even if you end up getting
rich
>> related to the price thing. When do you
think a founder should start paying
themselves properly?
>> Immediately like almost immediately.
Even if you can't afford it and what
would that mean? Put it on your on your
uh profit and loss statement like and
just write a little loan to yourself or
put it in a spreadsheet so you know
going forward. I think a lot of times
founders will spend years, you'll spend
years not making any money and thinking
that you have a profitable business, but
really the only profit is your labor and
basically it's slave labor at this
point,
>> right? So the founders free labor is
disguising bad economics inside of the
business
>> 100%. And you can't fix a business if
you don't understand the underlying
math. And so I always start with like
pay yourself a market rate salary. It's
super easy to figure out what that is.
go online, say market rate, this size
company, this industry, this location.
Okay, I'm going to pay myself that. If I
can't pay myself that in year one, okay,
that's okay. If I can't pay myself that
by year two, that's actually not okay.
>> What are you doing?
>> Yeah. Then you're doing something wrong,
and that means that you either have to
probably usually raise your prices, sell
more expensive things, find rich people,
they like to pay more. Um, but I think I
mean if if it's I mean like what a wild
thing there's so let's see last year
there were 5 million business businesses
created. That's the most businesses that
have ever been created before in
history. In like 2019 we should check my
math. I think it was a couple hundredk
somewhere between 200,000 and 500,000
businesses created. So we've had more
businesses created than ever before. And
yet we have less profitable businesses
than we've ever had before. And
entrepreneurs wages continue to go down.
So you look online and everybody looks
like they're Gucci, Fendy, Prada, you
know, Lamborghini, whatever. [laughter]
>> And they're not. And they're they're
actually poorer than most employees.
>> Yeah.
>> So it's like better to work for you than
to run it.
>> It would be a thousand% better. And so
why are we doing that to oursel? Let's
look ourselves in the face and be honest
and say, "All right, I'm not quite ready
for this game yet."
I mean, if your company becomes enormous
or reputable and it still owns your
life, I don't think you can class that
as winning. I don't think you can class
that as being successful. And I I'd love
to ask a question of a lot of founders.
I'd love to ask, if nobody ever knew
that you founded the business, would you
still want to own the company? And I
think that a lot of them wouldn't. You
know, the best example of this, I had
Ben Francis on the show a few years ago.
Gym Shark founder 70% of the companies
owned by him completely bootstrapped
took some advisory thing or a few people
have got some percentages here and there
70% he's worth like two bill pounds
right [ __ ] pounds that's like3
billion
and he was
co-founder CEO
then
stepped out of the business entirely
from a hundred million to 500 million
And the guy that used to run Reebok came
in and then at 500 million he stepped
back in. He gave me this line and he
said, "When your aspirations for the
business are bigger than your
aspirations for yourself, you'll become
a successful entrepreneur."
>> And I was like, "That is [ __ ] great.
That is so good. I care more about the
success of the business than my own
ego." And
you can say, this is actually an
acceptable thing. It's like, do you know
what it is? I take so much pleasure from
being a business owner, from playing the
game of business, even if I'm playing it
badly by most of the metrics that you
would assess the business by. But I just
love the uh impact. I love the
significance. Uh even like giving it to
myself, being a business owner, being
able to say that it's my thing and my
baby and I get to you do the obsession
thing. That that's cool. But don't kid
yourself that you're doing business. you
are playing the game of business there
and playing it at least by most metrics
pretty badly and yeah I I if nobody knew
that you founded the business would you
still want to own it
>> I think is a great question
>> it's and you know it took me it took me
12 years of working for other people
before I went and started my own thing
you know I actually I was way more
riskaverse than you and a lot of the
people that we know who just went out
and did this crazy I didn't like that
idea I wanted to sleep in my own bed. I
didn't believe in sleeping in like
closets and couches and garages, you
know. I wanted to I'm not that fancy,
but you know, I wanted to be able to go
on vacations and do all the things.
Eyebrow raised. I saw that. I know. Now
I can actually eyebrow raise again
because when you're pregnant, you can't
get Botox. So, it's a real tragedy. But,
um the uh like it took me a long [ __ ]
time to take the risk. And I actually
think that's totally fine. I think if
you're scared and you want to stack cash
and you only want to build on the side,
that's totally fine. And you have to
stop listening to people who try to get
you into entrepreneur porn when in fact
you could just own a part of the
business. You could invest in a bunch of
businesses. You could be really
successful as a number two and be way
happier. And that is totally okay. And I
think we got to normalize some people
saying that.
>> Dude, if you in the same way as I
mentioned before, you can go to somebody
that has a business or or or is in an
industry that you're really desperate to
go and work in. You could do the same
thing. I bet that you could roll the
dice and say, "I've worked in a similar
or completely symmetrical industry for a
very long time. I think that you need an
operator. I'm going to come in and I'm
going to take I'm going to be your right
hand. I'm going to be the sword that
cuts through all of this [ __ ] inside
of this business and I'm going to do it
for [ __ ] sweet nothing and in 60 days
we're going to have a little review and
I just want to see what happens." You
could go to that person and say, "I want
to take 50% market rate salary and I
want 10% of the business over the next
couple of years. let's see how we get
on. And then you build it up and build
it up and build it up. And as long as
you've got good enough contract, guess
what? You're a legitimate business owner
with none of the issues of having to
[ __ ] start it, find it, get your
market position. I think it I I think it
makes sense. I ultimately this challenge
for most people that this relates to
will come down to an emotional one.
>> Yeah.
>> Can you relinquish your identity of
being the person that was supposedly the
one that fixes all of the things,
keeping on top? Can you deal with
problems occurring? Are you going to be
able to have the hard conversations when
you need to? And if you can do those
things, I think you'll be successful.
And if you can't, I think you're going
to kind of be trapped in the same
hamster wheel.
>> Yeah. And I think it's not just do you
want the business to win more. I think
you really start winning in business
when you want your customers to get
bigger than you because of the things
you did for them. Like you want to be
the mentor that has a bunch of mentees
who are way bigger than you are. and you
want to be the employer who has a bunch
of employees that you want to invest in
in the future. Like one of the, you
know, I mean, many of uh many of the
greats, like if you think about uh
Antonio uh Gracias, uh head of Valor, uh
one of the big I mean, I think he made
$40 billion on Elon Musk's Space X
transaction. That's probably more than
Antonio's ever made in his life. And
it's because of Elon because he invested
in him. Uh, and also Elon was an
employee. Kind of got ousted from PayPal
by, you know, Peter Teal and a bunch of
the Founders Fund guys. Didn't have an
ego about it. Like I'm sure was super
pissed. Could felt like he could have
taken that company to the moon. But he
just ate it and said, "I'm going to keep
a relationship with these guys. They're
going to fund me in the future. They
they come in and save him later when
they almost run out of capital." And uh
because of that, Elon was able to
continue his company and take it to new
heights. And now, you know, Luke Nosk
and a bunch of guys here in Austin are
also going to make billions of dollars,
not off of their work, but off of
Elon's.
>> And those are people that he used to
report into or partner with
>> stuff,
>> right? And so, it's one of my favorite
parts about finance and investing is it
teaches you that you don't always want
to be better than your employees. You
actually want winner employees because
when they leave, you should go, "What
are you doing? Can I throw some pennies
at that? What is that? Let me in there."
Yeah,
>> that's how the rich people like rich
people do not think in terms of their
labor. Rich people think where can I put
some money and leverage to play so I
could do less and make more
>> and they feel no [ __ ] shame about it.
And then you know you and I because I
came from nothing and my entire identity
I'm what's called a workhorse. My entire
identity was wrapped up in Cody's good
because Cody works a lot. I feel bad
when I don't work. And because of that,
I actually miss a ton of opportunities
where I get to invest in somebody else
and they work harder than me. I don't
even have to do anything. I get to make
money from it. What a [ __ ] beautiful
thing.
>> So, it it's totally changed my
perspective investing over the however
many years because when you're an
investor, you don't look for where you
can put like we have a portfolio of like
uh let's see. So in contrarian thinking
capital we have like 33 36 companies
inside of there's a crazy thing the
companies that want the most from us do
you think those are the winners or the
losers?
>> Losers.
>> Those are the losers. The ones I have to
work hardest on in there are really
typically the ones that are going to
give me the least money. The winners I'm
like cool just saw that you did another
hundred million. And they're like not
responding. You know that is
>> busy running the business
>> 100%. And so, um, and you think about
that with your top employees, like the A
players in your business. Sadly, the
worst leaders are are bad leaders
because they spend all their time with
the losers.
>> Yeah. As opposed to, hey, you're a stud.
What else do you need? Let me get out of
your way. Like, that's what I think a
real leader does increasingly is like,
let's get out of the way of the winners
and stop spending all our time on the
losers and get more winners on board.
Um, but that's probably not that
profitable or popular either.
Yeah, the the gifted and talented
program for the people inside of your
organization as opposed to raising up
the bottom uh percentage is is is
usually not where people apply their
attention. What would you let's say
there's somebody listening who is ready
to relinquish some of that control and
is ready to go from being owned to
owning. What would you leave them with?
Well, I would start with like there's
one one hire I would highly consider,
which is like who is going to be your
right hand in business? Do you have a
number two that you trust? Uh because I
think it's really hard in the beginning
to just implement a ton of systems, etc.
Typically, if you're the founder, you're
you're the visionary, you're the one
with the crazy ideas, your execution is
probably not as good as it needs to be
for most people who aren't running
multi-million dollar businesses. If you
don't have a number two, if you don't
have an assistant, you are one. I mean,
one of my my mentors, Bill Perkins, who
you know too, he famously told me when I
wanted him to invest in one of our
companies, he wouldn't do it unless I
had not one but two assistants. And I
said, that's the most elitist [ __ ] I've
ever heard in my life, Bill. And he was
like, I don't give you my millions so
that you can go do minimum wage work.
So, like, no, you you need to have
junior people. And again, it's like, do
you wanna do you wanna sound right or do
you want to win? Do you want to be right
or do you want to win? And so, I think
that would be the first thing. And then
maybe the only other thing is a chief of
staff. One of the most underrated uh
hires out there for anybody who's making
seven figures plus. If you don't have a
chief of staff, I highly recommend it.
You're going to train a number two.
They're not much more expensive than an
assistant. And you know, ours, his name
is Aad. He's a stud. And we actually
Chris uh worked with him in Iraq. He was
his interpreter. Uh when Chris, my
husband, was in the military. He was a
Navy Seal in Iraq. And um he during the
the pull out of Iraq, uh Azads occurred.
And so um they were prosecuted.
And so Chris had to call in a bunch of
favors to get AOD out of the country.
And we got him here. The guy went and
immediately upon coming in went and
worked at Starbucks and uh the grocery
store uh two jobs at the same time to
just like pay rent. The second he got
his green card he went and applied for
the Marines, joined the Marines, was
like first in his class. Total stud.
Then goes and uh becomes an electrical
engineer and was going to go work at AMX
for an internship uh program. And we
pulled him to be our chief of staff. He
didn't have any of the background. He
didn't have any of the knowledge of it,
but I knew I was going to hire him
because I remember we just got breakfast
with him. And I was talking to Chris
about it, my husband. I'm like, I think
we should hire AOD. Like, he's just a
killer. He wants it. He's so hungry. He
has none of the experience, but I think
he's going to grind and we can help him
be really successful. And so, I call we
called Zod and he was like 20 minutes
away and Chris just says, "Hey, can you
come to the house?" And he's like,
"Yes." He had just left us. Any normal
person would have been like, "Why?
What?" He comes to the house and we
offer him and uh I don't even get out
like what the pay is and whatever and
he's like, "Yeah, I'll take it." And I
was like, "This guy's going to win." And
I think all around you, you don't even
realize it, but there's like some young
gun or there's some hungry person age
unrelated who would kill to just be next
to the owner, to just be next to one of
the winners at the company. And you
don't have to pay that much. But then
the second they start outperforming, you
start paying them more. And those people
almost every time for me have become the
people who have run my companies
eventually. So I could see AOD doing
that one day too.
>> Unreal. Cody Sanchez, ladies and
gentlemen. Cody rule, where should
people go?
>> Uh ownerbook.com. We have a This is kind
of cool. We're doing something a little
crazy we've never done before. Uh
ownerbook.com.
We're doing a massive giveaway. And the
idea was,
I don't know, you want to get your book
in everybody's hands, but then it
becomes about how many books you've
sold, you know, as the author, and
that's cool, but I was like, what if we
could give away a million dollars in
cash and prizes live at the book launch,
so we could say people made money like
right now, today on here. And so we're
doing that. So we're going to try to
like Oprah Winfrey, a bunch of business
grants to business owners. We're gonna
give a bunch of cool prizes actually uh
while we're there, things to help people
with their productivity and we're gonna
try to help a bunch of business owners
actually make some money live during the
book launch, which I don't think there's
ever been a million dollar book launch
before. So, that's kind of fun. And then
um we're partnering up with all these
charities and so uh you might like the
Navy Seal Foundation. So, some of these
charities will like live have videos and
access to things that they wouldn't
because of everybody coming and and
buying books. So anyway, could totally
implode, but it's going to be really fun
to try.
>> Unreal. I'm going to watch either the
fireworks or dumpster fire, depending on
what direction it goes in. You're great.
I appreciate you so much.
>> Thanks for having me.
>> All right. Goodbye, my beauties.
>> Dude, yes,
>> this was great. Thank you.
>> Congratulations. You made it to the end
of a podcast episode without dying. Now,
here's another one.
Go on, watch it.