Hello friends, I'm bringing a brand new
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audience Q&A's, and whatever happens
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Tickets are very limited, so get yours
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You're great. Your work is fantastic.
You rule.
>> Thank you.
Thank you.
>> Uh if I was to
if I was to try and summarize
your worldview on relationships, allow
me to step into your skin and wear it
for a second. I would summarize it as
love by design, not desire.
Is that a fair like it's thought, not
felt as relationships? That design
versus desire thing, how far away am I?
>> I I think um I I prefer earned love.
Earned love on a daily basis by by
knowing how to hack the brain, uh the
neuroendocrine system, which we can talk
about.
By uh by
you know, uh
designing the relationship uh to protect
feelings, uh to enhance feelings, to
uh to um uh allow two different people
under stress to maintain a collaborative
and cooperative attitude.
Uh that is a hard get um because that
that takes a certain amount of planning,
predicting, and planning, and preparing.
Uh what what could go wrong between
human beings?
>> Why are romantic attachment
relationships neurochemically
so hard to navigate?
>> Well, they're hard because in the
attachment world, if you uh if you
understand or buy the idea of a primary
attachment relationship. A primary
attachment relationship is one that is
is tends to be dyadic
with human primates. We pair bond in
herds.
And the romantic adult primary
attachment relationship
is most like the earliest one.
Which is predicated on survival.
So
the attachment system is actually an
existential
you know glue that holds us together.
It's the I can't quit you biology. We
confuse it for love.
And because it goes back to the earliest
you know survival relationship
that's why breaking up also is hard to
do. That's why it has a very long memory
cuz it reminds us of that earliest
dependency relationship whereas other
relationships tend to not do that.
>> So we're reliving our childhoods in a
way.
>> We're we're reliving our relationships
how we felt with all these important
originals that we were around in this
relationship that we call a romantic
adult relationship. But it is 12 and
before. That is generally how I will
think of it is that we have the parents
in our heads that we had
around 12 and and before that time even
if our parents and they do changed a
great deal for the better
or for the worse
we still draw upon the that earliest
uh you know because that's the root of
our experience through thousands upon
thousands of interactions starting from
infancy. Most of the people
So powerful.
>> Is love enough to maintain a
relationship?
>> Absolutely not.
>> [laughter]
>> No feeling is
cuz feelings come and go and besides who
knows what your definition of love is?
It may be very different than mine.
And even if I were to describe my
definition of love in action, my
expectations of love may be quite
different than what I say.
So, there you already have a problem.
But, if you're basing your life on
emotion, which is like a roller coaster,
then your life is like a roller coaster.
So, I I think the smartest and the
wisest and the way that it's always
worked in terms of long-term
relationships between individuals of
equal power, adults,
uh
is that uh you have to have first a
shared purpose, a reason for being in
this relationship, not based on
feelings.
And a vision of where are we headed?
What's the end point? Are we ride or
die? Is it all the way till, you know,
I'm wiping your butt?
Uh you're wiping my butt in old age? Uh
you know, what where are we headed? Um
and why?
What's the point of us? Who or what do
we serve?
Only purpose that's based on a selfish
reason will carry the day because we're
too
uh unreliable as a species. Um our
species is uh
notably historically
moody and fickle and impulsive and uh
unpredictable, sometimes opportunistic,
warlike, uh xenophobic, um easily
influenced by groups and other people.
So, we're we're not great over the long
run
uh in unions.
Therefore, we have to a a account for
going through time together, and that
would be going through some changes. So,
we need an invention, we need a design
from the ground up, which is a made-up
thing, right? All relationships are made
up.
That would sustain us in the long run
and would account for all of that wiggle
room necessary as we change through
time, right? Otherwise,
uh we're going to you know, we're not
going to make it somehow. Um
that's issue one. Uh issue two is we
have to understand the forces that push
us around, namely our survival instinct.
Because it's always on and because this
relationship is unlike any other on the
planet because of its memory, uh most
like that earliest one,
based on survival. Uh uh it has a long
memory and we tend to be proxies for
everybody who came before, right? We
tend to it's a very projective system.
The chances of us accruing threat memory
by getting things wrong based on memory
and appraisal
is 100%.
And so if we're not really good at
knowing and understanding how to
minimize threat and stay collaborative
under most stress and pressure,
we're going to accrue threat memory,
which is a biological matter and
eventually takes people down.
>> So you're saying we need to respect the
biology
>> Oh yeah.
>> by in advance
having structures in place
uh and principles that keep guardrails
in so that we're not relying on the
uh
abs and flows of how we feel.
>> Like any other any other union of any
kind that's professional of any kind, we
plan on our devils, not our angels,
right? Couples plan on their angels. And
that's a big mistake cuz
>> What does that mean?
>> Um devils we are if the opportunity
arises. If we're under enough load
bearing, if we're in enough pain or
enough pressure, enough stress.
Again, emotions. Uh you know, if I'm
going to behave according to how I feel,
which is pretty much everybody on the
planet most likely,
then I It stands to reason that we're
going to have a hard time getting along,
right?
And so
this this just has to do with predicting
what could go wrong and planning for it
ahead of time instead of
just falling into it, which is what
couples always do, right?
>> Yeah.
>> Couples don't predict, plan, and prepare
for what could go wrong based on what
has gone wrong.
Nobody else does that. Medicine, we do
post-mortems, right? We Let's not kill
the patient again.
Uh and but couples don't do that. They
just repeat, repeat.
Uh we predict what could go wrong in the
police force, in military, in medicine,
in science, in business.
Couples don't do that. They just walk
into the same situations live without
being prepared. Uh
we would never involve uh get involved
with a group of people if we didn't know
what the culture was and how are we
going to be protected from each other
cuz we're animals.
Couples don't have any any governance,
any way of protecting each other from
each other cuz they don't set it up.
So couples are the only system, the only
voluntary system of free, fair, you
know, voluntary system
uh of individuals coming together um of
equal power and authority, at least on
the face of it.
It should be on based on terms and
conditions that do not have any of this
ever.
And uh and that is why they're predicted
not to last very long or if they do, one
or both people are not going to be happy
or not going to feel safe and secure.
Because there's no social contract uh
system of making agreements
uh based on purpose, based on what is
good
so say you both we both right what is
best so say we both or what you know is
right those are the three
and without that it's going to be the
wild west
>> Does that mean that discussing
non-negotiables and practical things in
advance and as early as possible is
actually the romantic thing to do?
>> It's not well I think you don't put that
into the hey honey let's go out to
dinner and have a nice romantic dinner
and everything and let's talk about if
we have any deal breakers
you could I guess it's not you know it's
dual purpose but
deal breaker is
should be known ahead of time
I want a baby
I have to have a baby
you hate kids
and let's get married so that is what
people do
and that's like not smart because that
can't work I want monogamy and you want
polyamory well neither of us are wrong
we have a right to want what we want and
get what we want but we can't do
business together because that's going
to cause a lot of trouble
so those are deal breakers
big ticket items that couldn't work
because we're pointing in two different
directions
>> Having a specific shared purpose and
vision is still important outside of
deal breakers I have to imagine
>> So if you look if you look at the human
condition and and how people have
sustained in groups uh
groups don't stay together very long or
they don't get along with each other
very well if they don't have a shared
purpose for being together you and I are
going to start a band that's our purpose
we want to start a band we want to
what what is our goal our vision we want
to get a record deal at least initial
so if we didn't have that we wouldn't
have reason to hang together very much
and we would probably not get along
because we tend to pick at each other if
we don't have a shared purpose.
Right? Uh that's if we're, you know,
spending a lot of time together.
And a shared reason for doing this.
Otherwise, we tend to otherize. We tend
to pick at each other's differences.
We don't uh we don't look naturally to
where we agree and where we are the
same.
People who are consensus makers have to
do that. But at the average Joe, because
of energy conservation, meaning
uh you know, we're meant to do the least
amount necessary biologically, all
living things,
um we're lazy and we won't do things
that we should do cuz we don't think we
have to.
So,
uh uh this whole idea of you know, we're
in it to win it, uh you know, we're a
survival team, uh we want to win, we
want to make money, we want to succeed,
want to survive,
uh um all of these things are essential
for keeping things on keeping people on
the path together and and not paying
attention so much to their differences.
Otherwise, we fight. And when it happens
in a country such as ours, that's when
we see civil war or tribalization or
massive amount of splintering, right?
Cuz there's no more centralized sense of
purpose that holds us together that's
believable and uh and a vision, American
dream, right?
And so, if things break down.
Uh
so, if that is true with all systems
large and small, it goes to follow that
a couple would be no different. If they
have no shared reason for being
at any given time, they're going to
fight uh or they'll drift.
Because that's what actually holds us
together, yeah.
>> What's the importance of agreements?
>> Uh
that's all we've got to keep us from uh
being harmful to each other. All we have
is our pacts, our agreements, our social
contracts.
Civilizations predicated on social
contracts. The first laws of religion,
even though it was a social contract
with God, an Old Testament God that
would rain in your bedroom 40 days, 40
nights if you disobeyed, you know, that
was a powerful thing to get people to
start to behave. The first way of
getting people to stop harming each
other
with the 10 Commandments, right? So,
everything is predicated on agreements.
Otherwise, we we go to war. We do harm.
You know, we're
like I said, we're selfish,
self-centered,
opportunistic animals. If we can get
away with something, we will. That's
that's in our DNA.
Only norms and laws and principles and
rules keep us from doing that and allows
us to stay together in safety and
harmony. Otherwise, we wouldn't. No
difference with a couple. So, they have
to come up with this as well.
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Why do we make the fundamental agreement
to prioritize each other above
everything else at all times?
>> You don't have to. You could agree that
ourselves come first. Then you'd have to
describe that to each other, define
that. What does that really mean? Same
with a relationship. What does it mean
in practical purposes? If this happens,
what would we do? If that happens, what
would we do?
Are there any exceptions to this? What
could go wrong with this idea of putting
ourselves first? Uh what happens if if
this relationship crashes and burns?
Um we put ourselves first. What does
that uh do for our kids? What does that
do for our own health? So does it make
sense?
Well, maybe we put religion first.
That's fine. But you'd have to think it
through because you're planning your
life
because your lives depend on this. How
you're going to rule, how you're going
to govern, what decisions you're going
to make is going to be predicated on
what is the highest priority, right?
Otherwise, you're not a team.
It'll be chaos when load-bearing hits.
You're going to, you know, be
unprepared.
So
uh it's all practical, it's all
tactical. It it's not about emotion,
it's about what would be the best thing
and what
what one thing must be protected at all
costs in order for everything else to
thrive. That's how to think of it,
right?
>> Mhm.
>> But it has to be defined, has to be done
judiciously because again it's no small
thing. Your happiness, safety, and
security, everything's predicated on
your design.
>> What's the threat response based on
memory?
>> Well, memory is is is a problem. We're
memory animals. Everything we do is by
memory. Most of our day is memory run.
It's automatic. We're not thinking.
We're not using energy-expending areas
of the brain that use critical thinking.
We save that for novelty. We save that
for our work. Save that for other
things.
But so we're just walking through the
day doing things automatically
reflexively based on memory.
The um because of our survival instinct
uh
negative memory negative experiences
favored
uh in memory because of we have to
remember where we're hurt because of
danger. So survival is at the top of our
subcortical drive.
Right? And it does not uh it does not
equivocate. It does not differentiate.
Uh you hurt me if you didn't fix it
right away and you do it again then I'm
going to predict you're going to do it
again and again and again which you will
feel attacked by.
But that is me protecting myself. Uh I'm
using pattern recognition to sweep the
environment for cues.
And every time you you repeat something
or we repeat something that's
threatening
the array of threat cues that I'm
looking for increase.
Naturally makes sense. It doesn't know
the difference between you holding a gun
on me and you uh you looking askance uh
that I view as a judgment as an attack
as a criticism. Right?
And so this becomes problematic if we're
not careful
which is why there are ways to uh to
prevent this from taking hold because it
does have a snowball effect.
>> It does It sounds like it sounds like it
sensitizes your system over time.
>> Yeah. Has to because we have to survive.
Uh this part of our brain is lightning
fast. It I see it I shoot it.
And that makes sense if you if you're if
your life depends on on making a a quick
decision and an an an action that
protects you uh from a danger it makes
sense that this can be a problem
relationships.
Because
I will react very quickly based on my
own narrative history memory
and I will likely be wrong and you will
likely feel
threatened by my assuming.
Which you will then protect yourself and
behave in a way that's threatening in
return and therein lies problem with the
human condition. Why we're better at
war.
>> [gasps]
>> We're we're just not great at
relationships over the long run.
So there are ways to remedy this if you
know what you're up against. One is
quick repair.
Quick repair is a way to keep memory
from going into long-term memory where
it's the gift that keeps on giving.
And sadly most people don't fix things
quickly. They don't fix things. I'm
sorry you're right that was stupid. I
shouldn't have done that. I'm sorry. I
love you. And then move on, right? Um
they delay it. They don't do it. They
they apologize in in the wrong way.
Uh
and and so the beat goes on and this is
why families lose their kids.
Estrangement. That's why people get
sued. That's why in the old days people
you know, challenge each other to a duel
to the death. You know, because um we
remember harm done. We don't forget it.
Person who harms us does.
But because of the adrenaline that's
created created when we feel
misunderstood, hurt, judged,
something's unfair, unjust.
Uh that that creates a lot of juice to
go into long-term memory unless you fix
it right away which case it doesn't.
So that's one of the main reasons to
grow up and do what we invented. Uh the
reason we invented apologies uh, amends,
was to hold on to our relationships.
And if you two want to hold on to your
relationship with your kid or your your
spouse or your parents, then you got to
learn how to fall on your sword
and only apologize
um, without equivocation, without
qualification, explanation, uh, without
any any other qualifier, if you know
what's good for you. Is that in the real
world is the only thing that'll relax
another person. Yeah, the only thing.
And I have to apologize for what you
think I did, not what I think I did.
>> Mhm.
>> Think how hard that is for us cuz we're
so prideful. We think that we're always
right.
And that's not true, by the way.
We're hardly ever right by much.
And, um, but, you know, it's our
arrogance. It's our, you know, hubris to
think that our communication was
spot-on. I heard you clearly. Um, uh, my
memory is great. Uh, my perception is is
correct. Yours isn't. And none of this I
can prove. None of this is true at any
given time. It's all false. And yet,
we'll die on that hill unless we're
dumb.
>> It's so fascinating that
intense negative experiences, if
repaired quickly,
have
basically a completely different future
ahead of them than ones that are left to
fester. That if you're in a relationship
which has regular rupture without
repair, and especially without repair
quickly,
that makes it's painful in the moment
and
more painful in the future and
sensitizes your system to detecting this
happening again, even perhaps when it's
not, which means that your world view is
going to appear increasingly deranged to
the other person who needs to apologize
based on your interpretation, not on
their projection.
>> Right.
>> It's vicious. It's a It's a really badly
designed system.
>> Well, it's it's not designed, like I
said, for Remember, we used to die at at
15 or 30 tops, right? We didn't live
that long. We would pair bond for 4
years and then leave and then, you know,
mix up the gene pool. That, you know,
that satisfied the, you know, the
natural the ways of natural laws and and
that nature's
uh right? Nature didn't plan on us,
you know, doing what we do today.
We're on our own.
Uh that's why we have to invent our
meaning. We did We're not born into a
world with meaning, right? Clearly.
We're not born into a world where we get
why we're here and how we got here and
where we're going.
That's the whole existential dilemma,
right? It's the angst. You know, we're
going to die, we're alone, uh we don't
know uh why we're here, um uh and life
has no meaning,
right? Uh that's very depressing. So, we
create meaning,
right? Same thing. But meaning also
involves governance.
How are we going to protect each other
from each other? That is not in by
nature, right? We We are predators.
We're apex predators as as a matter of
fact.
Um we're nice on a when we're happy,
right? Yeah. But you may not want to be
around us if we're unhappy. We're kind
of nasty. Unless unless
there are norms, you know? Sweetheart,
you know, my 14-year-old daughter,
uh
you can be angry. You cannot walk around
and destroy the atmosphere here for
everybody who's in the house. That's a
community issue. You can't do it.
So, stop it.
Right? Um only that stops that kind of
behavior. Um no, you can't do this. I
know you want to do it, but I'll show
you you can't. Try.
And I will show you you can't. And that
uh gives rise to an idea that there are
limits, there are boundaries, there are
things you can and cannot do. But let's
say I don't do that. Let's say I give
in,
then you can get away with anything.
Right? Cuz there is no God. I did that.
It doesn't happen naturally. Um you
know, Lord of the Flies, you know, we're
animals. And the off the the uh the
product line, you know, uh
human primate
isn't great.
>> [snorts]
[laughter]
>> You know, uh you know, civilization uh
you know, uh
over so many years of uh of you know,
building complexity socially,
emotionally, and and and um ideals and
values and and uh and and morals,
principles. That That, you know, in in
the whole span of history, of course,
it's a blip, but in our time, it's a
long period
to get here, and we're still a mess.
Um and so, you know, again, don't be
naive.
You are responsible for this
relationship. No one else is. You're the
only ones who are going to benefit and
are also going to suffer if you're not
an an alliance, right? If you're not
working together, you can't work. If
you're not able to work together as a
two-person system of we and us
interdependently having the same things
to gain and lose,
are you going to survive this life,
really?
Uh with all the slings and arrows and
all the the things that happen and and
the indifference of others, which, you
know, just test that out. When the chips
are down, people will be indifferent to
your concerns.
Um
and that's just the way it is.
Uh and so, not knowing that and
preparing is just simply not being aware
and not being an adult and and in
reality.
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>> I've heard you say that if you leave
those memories to encode in long-term
for too long, you can end up seeing your
partner more as a predator than a lover.
>> Yeah, the subcortical brain does not
differentiate.
>> What's what's happening What's happening
neurochemically in and in
the brain?
>> Well, the
there's an intentional center uh um
uh the salience network in the brain is
what causes me to to look, right? You
know, I hear a sound and I look. That's
a salience network that's directing me
to what's most important at this moment.
And there are other networks that are
involved here that are fear-related
um and threat-related that are involved
in this one network.
And so, I I begin to hone in on your
face because you repeatedly do something
that reminds me of something that makes
me feel small
and devalue, okay? You may not intend to
do that, but your intentions aren't the
matter here.
Um I'm picking up a threat memory a cue
from your face because I'm vigilant. Um
I've I now have to look for this because
I've been hurt too much.
>> [clears throat]
>> You feel attacked by it, but I'm simply
taking care of myself. I don't control
this. It is pushing me around.
It's because I don't understand it,
right? I assume that everything I'm
picking up is correct. I don't check.
You know, are you are you are you doing
that thing right now?
>> [clears throat]
>> Right? I just I just shoot first uh
assuming you are doing it. And that's
because these areas don't have an
executive function.
They're not meant to have an executive
function. An executive function takes
time and resources.
That is why that that, you know, when
we're relaxed, we have all oars in the
water, we can think, we can error
correct, we can we can think in a
relativistic way and not in a in in a uh
dominant end way, right? I am certain.
No, maybe you're right.
But I'm relaxed. I can do that. As soon
as I blood pressure and heart rate go to
a certain level, my brain changes. I
literally don't have a capacity to do
that because the executive areas
uh demand a lot of resources to run,
oxygen, glucose, and blood.
That is now going to my striated muscles
because I'm starting to get into fight
or flight. I'm getting hyper-aroused.
And there's a brain change. I'm altered.
I no longer care about your interests.
And it takes very little uh this is uh
Robert Sapolsky's uh work not just very
little uh glucocorticoids coursing
through my veins for me not to give a
damn about you.
And you lose me as an audience if you're
not careful.
Um you don't even think it cuz you
haven't noticed you've lost me as an
audience.
Uh I feel unsafe therefore talk to the
hand. I care only about my interests and
you get nothing.
That's how sensitive the system is cuz
I've determined I'm not safe
on a subcortical level.
Now, I may not know this but you will if
you pay attention.
I will know when you fall into out of
safety because I'm watching you if I am.
Um and that's why
you know, in each other's care is we're
psychobiologically wired in close
proximity to pick up social emotional
cues faster from the other person than
we are from our own bodies.
>> Mhm.
>> That makes it
uh that makes us primed for something
called interactive regulation or
coregulation, right?
Um that's another kind of teamwork but
it's more autonomic.
Anyway, so uh so
uh it doesn't you know, this is a very
stupid part of us but it's but we'll
thank it because we dodged a bullet.
Um
and and so
I have to understand
that you and I
have to talk to each other in a
particular way.
Otherwise
uh you'll confuse me as an adversary.
And this is what's hard about secure
functioning. The formula really is
I have to take care of myself and you at
the same time
under stress or you will confuse me for
an adversary. And it will compel you to
then take care of yourself on
Now we're one-person systems. We're no
longer
in a team sport, we're in a solo sport.
>> Does this explain
how
>> everybody. There are no exceptions to
this, by the way. They're all people.
>> Mhm.
Does this explain how resentment
accumulates in relationships, and
relationships start to look very
deranged from
both the outside and the inside?
>> Um
One of the greatest uh causes of anger,
sustained anger, is injustice, right?
Uh the other is helplessness. Um
uh
uh
uh and, you know, right? And so
a any any system that's too unfair, too
unjust, uh and too insensitive can't
last because it's unfair, unless
it's an employer, you know, asymmetric
relationship where I have to suck it up
cuz I want the job and I need the money.
But in in a in a equal system that's
voluntary, that's voluntary,
if it's not fair and just, um
and I'm getting the short end of the
stick, you should keep your eyes open at
night cuz that never ends well
uh in the human uh field, right? And so
insecure functioning is too unfair.
Uh it's good to be king.
Um and I get things at your cost, not
realizing that we're tied together
psychobiologically. Anything I do to you
is going to happen to me.
There's no decoupling that, unless
unless this is an autocracy, unless I am
the dictator, in which case I still
better keep my eyes open at night. But,
you know, then I get to do everything.
Um and you have to do it. But that's not
the reality of a free and fair union of
equals in an adulthood, right? The
expectation is that it be fair, whether
people say that or not, it is that way.
And that's universal.
>> How much can you prune those bad
memories? How much harder is it to get
over that once you've accumulated them?
>> You can't get rid of these memories and
you don't want to because that'll happen
sooner enough. I'm 72 and starting to
happen
with names, but you don't want to get
rid of those memories.
Um the only way to change the past is to
change the future.
There's no other way. These these
neuropathways are weighted by repeats,
right? We're repeating things. Yeah, and
that's the worst.
>> Mhm.
>> This is the smart thing to do that we
already know and couples don't do. One
is
I will apologize forever for harm done.
That is the right and just thing to do.
In the real world, that is expected. I
don't get a free pass in memory.
Right? By saying, "I don't need to
apologize. I did my time in prison."
That's not ever going to work. Same in
couples, right? I'll always apologize
for what you feel I did. No problem. But
let's put something in place, you and I,
to prevent either of us from doing that
again.
If only
we did that.
We'd be great.
Because we're doing the same thing.
We're learning from the past and we're
creating a future that is different
based on what we learned. Let's not do
that again. Not you, not just me, either
of us cuz we're human. We could both do
this.
So, we found a place where we're
vulnerable.
Let's close that up as we go.
But couples don't do that.
They just walk right into the same thing
again, rinse and repeat, and that is
deadly.
You do not want repetition. It creates
inflammation. Once that repetition
start, it accrues. And sadly, I deal
with couples that have been together,
you know, sometimes 12 years, but you
know, often three to 30 years.
And they're burdened not only by
having to uh look back at all the
resentments, but they feel compelled to
litigate the past.
>> Mhm.
>> Just rehearsing the same thing that
nothing comes of it.
And besides, memory sucks and they're
going to fight about memory.
I'm I'm there and they're not watching
where they're going, so they're
repeating.
Um I The other thing is that when they
do try to work on the relationship, now
memory intrudes
on the present and puts the kibosh on
the future.
This is a big problem we're trying to
solve.
>> How so? How does this happen?
>> We you and I have been fighting for
years.
And and um we both complain of
unfairness. Right? And we neither of us
trust each other now because we did
that. We did that.
Um years of doing business poorly.
Now we want to right things, right? And
we go to, let's say, me or anybody who's
pre uh proposing, let's design this
thing from the ground up.
Um
as we're doing this,
one of us is going to go, that's not
going to you know, you know.
Why are you depressed? Because he'll
never do this.
I already know. And now I'm back
because [snorts]
subcortically
I'm being yelled at.
Don't trust him.
That won't happen. It's right?
Why am I being fatalistic? Because I'm
being warned on what has happened.
It doesn't It has no interest
and I say yeah to this these networks
that are subcortical
have no interest that we're working on
something to improve it.
Therefore, what is now causing us a big
problem is that neither of us can forget
as we're going forward. Going forward
triggers the past. The past is always
present. That's the problem. Yeah. Past
that we created.
>> Yeah.
>> That it adds a huge
neurobiological layer of difficulty.
Think of this. Um
uh
you know, as numbers grow gets more
difficult because of memory. Israel and
Palestine Palestine.
They cannot get out of this loop because
there are generations upon generations
of memory.
Where everybody is getting their
justice, right? I want my justice and
it's to blow up your family and now you
have a reason to get your justice and
and there's no getting out of that,
right? Because there's too many people
with too much memory and there's too
many people wanting to get their justice
at the cost of somebody else.
Well, partners do this, too. I want my
justice and now I create a new one at
you, right?
You could put the kibosh on that. But it
is hard because the very same problem
is that I feel that something happened
to me.
There's that itch I need to scratch. I
need you to pay. I need I need something
to square this. Because there have been
too many years of unfairness and
sometimes I just have to divorce you.
So,
I this accruing of memory is central and
if people only knew,
they could prevent this.
Uh because it is human nature. It's not
him or her. It's all of us. This is a
problem.
And if you don't know about it, you're
going to do it.
>> It feels like prevention is
significantly better than an attempt at
repair.
>> Yes, because you cannot erase the
memory. You can only relegate it those
neuro pathways to a dirt road cuz
they're no longer being used. They're no
longer being triggered. Nothing you're
doing right now triggers that memory.
>> But given that most people live lives of
routine,
um
you
were concerned and
small amount of justification about why
your partner was staying late at work
with somebody that you felt
uncomfortable about.
You learned this lesson and you even do
some of the repair. You deal with all
the difficulty of
going back over it. You do an open and
honest completely frank apology. But the
next time that your partner stays late
at work
regardless of what's been done to the
past
the present and your predictions about
the future are now being colored by what
happened before.
>> Right. Right.
Not only is the past always present but
the present is changing the past as
well.
So you and I had a great wedding um but
our marriage sucks and 12 years, 13, 15,
20 years down the line, the therapist
ask us, "How was your wedding?"
And our report is not great.
Contrast that with a couple who had the
worst had wedding from hell. People were
arrested, drugs were found, um
looted all gifts were looted all sorts
of things happened. This is a true
story.
But their marriage um
was it became a great marriage. They
look back on it as funny
as amazing. Um
the present state of mind changes our
memory which is why memory
it is completely unreliable, folks.
If you're arguing about memory, you're
you're engaged in something where you're
both wrong.
>> Which is why it's so much better to just
apologize for however your partner sees
it.
>> Yeah, you don't lose anything.
You gain. You keep your marriage. You
keep your your relationship intact.
>> Does distance make this harder?
Obviously, we're in a a modern world
with a lot of people who argue, but
they're not together.
Um
maybe they fight over the phone or text
message or email, whatever. Does What
does What wrinkles does that add to the
rupture and repair conversation?
>> I love your questions, Chris. They're
great. Um
here's the problem.
We're We're
We're face-to-face eye-to-eye animals.
We're legally blind on this side. We
have to be dead on to regulate each
other because we're visual We have a
visual brain.
Therefore, we error correct through the
visual field.
Everything else is messy.
So, if we're on the phone, we lose the
visual, which means we're only using the
auditory.
Now, since we're visual, we're
visualizing things according to our own
state of mind. So, if I'm angry with
you, what picture of you in my head do I
have at the moment? Probably not great.
That colors how you sound.
Um so, my error rate in understanding
and appraising you, especially if I'm
under stress, all of this is about when
we're under stress,
which is a lot,
right? We're only talking about when one
of us is under stress, things are going
to go wonky if we're not not careful.
Under stress, I'm going to hear
differently.
Because the state of mind that is that
is triggered by this
by my feeling, by my stress,
is connected to memory.
And they they operate in a loop. They
reinforce each other.
The my state of mind alters my
perception like a funhouse mirror.
And it's stunning.
What I see, what I taste, what I hear,
what I feel, all of that is altered by
my state.
Therefore,
what could go wrong here?
Um I am at a angry state. I am talking
in a way my prosody changes that is
unfriendly to you. I can't see your
face, you can't see my face. Maybe I was
smiling.
Uh you don't know. Uh now we're going to
fight for no reason because we're our
error rate is sky high and the more
excited we get
the worst uh the error rate goes really
high, right?
And [clears throat] and it's over
nothing, right? It's over our brain
thinks it's something, it isn't.
Um or text.
I mean, it's crazy. Uh
never do relationship stuff or text. You
send your
a picture of your goofy face, I love
you, emoticons,
uh what time's dinner? That's it. No
>> That's the limit. That's the upper bound
of how much your relationship should be
mediated through the phone.
>> Yes. I What did we used to do?
Well, you used to draw pictures on a
cave, but you know,
in the old days I'd write you a letter
and it would take a month at least to
get to you. You could be sure I
wrote that thinking very carefully
very carefully about what I am saying.
It was beautiful letter, right? Yeah,
beautiful letter. I didn't need spell
check.
I had my anxiety knowing that you're
going to see this letter and it was
going to take about a month, right? I
wanted you to get this exactly right.
Well, what do we do now?
We get in a lot of trouble with our
text, with our work, you know, with you
know, add to that a little bit of Ambien
or a little bit of benzodiazepines or
alcohol and everything and we're
screwed. So,
yeah, we do not understand our
limitations. There are things we cannot
do and yet we expect things that are not
possible. Like you and I under stress
can talk about more than one topic
without fighting, that's impossible.
Or that you and I can talk about an
emotional conversation while one of us
is driving.
That will end badly. It's not possible.
Uh you know, there are things that
people don't understand that we're
limited
by. We're smart in so many areas and
we're so stupid on a daily
basis.
And it's funny except we take all of it
personally and most of it isn't. Most of
it is because we're stupid, automatic,
reflexive, memory based, not thinking,
not paying attention.
Um because we live in a world where our
attention is constantly split now.
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What does I'm thinking about
kind of how we discussed at the top this
it's like a conversation about
compatibility.
How much of relationship conflict is
just based around incompatibility and
and not pointing in the same direction
or being specific about what each of you
wants to see if you're in agreement in
advance.
>> Compatibility in my game, in my mind,
only is where you and I are pointing in
two different directions on the big
ticket items, right? I want full
transparency. I want us to have you
know, we're this is a team sports as I.
I want us to work together. I want our
left hands and right hands to know the
same thing. That keeps us safe. That's
what I want best thing and you say not
so fast.
I don't which you have a right to say.
I don't think that's the best idea for
me. I don't think it's really good for
you, but I'll try to convince you.
I think we should have our secrets. I
think we should have our privacy.
Every right to want that.
Now, if you stick to your guns and I
can't get you over to my side, you can't
get me over to your side
in an honest way. I have to really
selfishly want what you want or it won't
work.
And vice versa.
Um, we're not we're incompatible.
We're we're just we're not wrong, we're
just incompatible.
Um, that's true incompatibility. Not you
have a greater sex drive than I do. Not
um, I like tennis and you don't. Not
Right?
That's not the kind of compatibility
that's going to make a difference in
life. Cuz every all interests are going
to change no matter what.
That's not a problem, right? You can
create mutual interests.
Um, but these things won't work. It's
not about healthy, unhealthy, good, bad,
right, or wrong. It just can't work.
Right? Uh, it's a built-in fight.
So, uh, you know, you can't ignore those
things.
But the attachment system, the I can't
quit you biology will make us go
let's get married
and ignore that deal breaker.
>> [laughter]
>> It's
>> What's You've said it a couple of times,
uh, the I can't quit you biology. What
is that?
>> Attachment
is is nature's glue. It keeps us sticky.
It keeps us together.
And and it feels like love cuz it has
loving
aspects to it and behaviorally
could have it.
But let's say you or an I are I'm
abusive. I hurt you physically and
mentally.
Um
that glue is likely to keep you in this
relationship and you'll justify it in
all sorts of ways.
Um or because you're financially
dependent on me, you'll justify it. Or
because your religion says this. Or
because you're in a in a culture where
divorce is looked down upon. Or whatever
it is, you'll come up with or the kids,
the kids will suffer that, right? I have
all these reasons, but I'm telling you
the main reason
is the attachment biology. That is uh
connected to survival. That feels like
death.
I'm largely unaware of it. Some people
are acutely aware.
Right? Depending on their attachment
organization.
Um but that isn't always there thing for
most people. There are outliers, but
they are they're different. They don't
they
they're different. Um they don't attach
in the same way.
Um and so uh it you know, it it the
everything in nature has a feature
and a bug. Everything that's feature is
a bug. And also in personalities, also
I you know, if somebody has massive OCD,
that's a feature for a a surgeon. For
you know, you want your surgeon to have
OCD. You want your surgeon your your
pilot to have OC, right? Your accountant
to have OC. That's great. You don't want
a spouse with OCD necessarily cuz that's
a pain in the ass.
That's a bug there. So all of this
isn't really good or bad. All people are
disappointing. All people are pain in
the ass. All people are are trouble and
a burden.
Um
what you want is to create a system
whereby neither of you can possibly feel
unsafe or insecure by design.
Neither of you will be unhappy in a
relationship by design. You can do that.
You can structure things this way.
You can't control everything else
outside of this, but home I think is as
a relationship. Tracy and I,
no matter where we go,
as long as we're together, I'm fine.
And and we've been in some really
terrible places. I mean, really terrible
places.
That's an achievement.
>> Mhm.
>> Right. You know, that home is where we
are.
Uh it's going to make me want to cry
because when you start to get to this
place,
the only thing now that's the bug is
worrying that you know, you could lose
them.
You know, not
to,
you know, affairs, not to divorce, but
to death.
And and that's really troubling.
Although it does make me
um appreciate
the moment instead of taking it for
granted, which is what we should all do
cuz we're in denial about that. Your
partner could die at any moment. Did you
say what you needed to say? Have you
really enjoyed that person? Are you
really [clears throat] here?
Or are you going to regret uh that you,
you know,
um that's again, nature's forces.
Energy conservation is to do the least
amount necessary and direct our
attention to what we deem important.
It's usually something that is not
familiar.
You are familiar, therefore I don't need
to look at you anymore. I don't need to
court you or I don't need to
I know you anymore. I think I know you.
I don't.
Um I I I you know, we store a picture of
our partners and our children's face in
our brain for weeks and months without
really looking.
I didn't even notice
this.
That's how lazy we are.
And it's not laziness. It's energy
conservation. Therefore, we have to
build rituals otherwise we would never
do anything good for ourselves. We would
have to,
you know, build things in that are
romantic every day that we would do to
to fall in love again with each other
every day. It just doesn't happen.
Uh behavior lags at hell of how we feel.
And the and these are the forces we're
up against.
Um all of us, automation. And we're
going to automate each other. Therefore,
I think I know you. That's a dangerous
proposition.
I don't know you. I
I don't I can never fully know you. And
not only that, you've been on the planet
too long. Which is why we used to have
pillow talk and shoot the breeze and
about our childhood. It's just fun talk.
Now I see I see but couples and they
know nothing about each other.
They're not curious. There's no
curiosity. Curiosity is the flame.
Curiosity is the dopamine. Curiosity is
the strangeness that goes,
you know,
you're novel even though I think you're
familiar.
If I look really closely,
you're not as familiar as I think. Now
you're interesting. But we'd have to
look
for the novelty in the ordinary. And
we're too lazy to do that.
>> It's interesting with the
I can't quit you thing. I think a lot of
people you you you mentioned uh
injustice and helplessness. Yes. And uh
it's strange that
>> And fear and fear make us angry.
>> Yeah. Uh
with sort of sufficiently disorganized
attachment,
you can fear and feel injustice and be
helplessly stuck inside of a
relationship with a person who is both
supposedly the self but also the cause
of all of these
>> Yeah.
>> issues of your your
psychological maladies. And people will
it's another feature and bug scenario
where
it's a noble thing to sacrifice your
needs in place of somebody that you're
attached to, but that also can get
hijacked to the point where
you just continue to grit your teeth as
you mentioned a couple that's been
together for so long and they haven't
enjoyed each other for decades and
decades.
And they just keep going because
>> They can't stop.
>> Yeah. Yeah, it's the same
addiction.
>> There is
well,
yeah, it there is an addictive component
to it. I don't want to mislead your
audience because it's not truly that. Um
when I when I do something to feel
better at the at the cost of doing the
right thing. In other words, I feel
better, but I just hurt the
relationship, the union.
I do get a reward for that, right?
I feel good, which makes me want to do
it again and again. And it is, you know,
it is like addiction where I'm going to
grab for it because I can't hold and
wait. I can't wait, right? I'm going to
take it now even though there's
downstream bad effects for me, I'm
ignoring those.
So in that sense, yeah, that's very much
like an addiction that is impulsive and
and needs to grab impulsively what I
need to do
despite the fact that it's self-harming.
Um so yes, but the system begins to
react to itself.
And that's really another way to look at
it as systemic. And the system is
reacting no longer real individuals.
They're amplifying each other's
negatives by pointing and
poking
uh their core vulnerabilities.
Here's another unfair kind of unkind
nature thing.
Is that because we pair bond based on
some kind of familiarity and
recognition? We don't pair bond with
strangers that are too strange, right?
They have to be familiar enough.
Um
Um we're both likely to have the bite
that fits the other person's wound.
Um we're not those people, but we kind
of play them on TV.
Uh we have the we have the predilection,
we have the ability to do those things
that remind us of those relationships,
which is why it's problematic. It's a
memory.
Um now, if [clears throat] we didn't
know better,
I don't know you have this wound.
I only see your defense against it, and
your defense is really threatening.
So, I respond in a threatening way,
which consolidates your vulnerability
and increases your defense.
And right, and makes you certain that
I'm a dangerous character.
Well, you're doing the same with me.
You're have You happen to be poking me
in a core vulnerable place.
Um and that I can't do anything other
than react.
Um you don't know this, um because the
way I'm responding to you feels
threatening, of course. Therefore, you
are going to protect yourself from me,
and therein lies the problem. We're
going to make each other worse,
naturally.
Cuz you're not paid to sit there and
just think about what I'm doing.
You're going to take it personally.
Now, if you're a therapist, you can't do
that, right? I have to sit and I have to
sit with my feelings and not you know,
not jump up and act out.
I have, [clears throat]
but I regret that. But, you know, it's
you know, we're human. But but we're
paid to do otherwise, right? Your
partner isn't. And and therefore, we're
more likely to make each other worse.
Because it's a misunderstanding.
You can't know why I'm doing this thing
threatening thing and you don't need to
know because you're feeling threatened.
So,
knowledge is power. Understanding how
the brain works, understanding how these
systems work, understanding your partner
inside out, being an expert on your
partner,
which if your survival mattered to you
and you thought about it,
you better know how to restore your
partner back to
uh you know, level thinking and level uh
performance because your life does
depend on them. They go down,
you're in the foxhole together, you're
dead.
So, you better know the animal you
picked and how to how to work with this
animal, be an animal whisperer this one.
They're not you.
And you're going to need them if you are
a team.
It matters if they go down and you
better know how, just the right way, to
pick them back up or you you you're this
is yeah.
Again, what what's the point?
So, this is an orientation and
couples just not not oriented towards
this being a survival team.
But it is. You just haven't been tested
yet.
Life has not thrown you that curve.
You're not in
Bosnia during that time. Uh you're not
in Ukraine and Russia now. You're not in
Gaza. Uh
or you know, right? Uh the whole
different orientation there. They know
what's important. It's uh to protect
each other, right? Uh we don't.
We're asleep.
Um that's the denial system cuz it would
get in the way if we always had to plan
for this.
But
the planning for this starts with the
building blocks of reining each other in
and being safe and secure and
and predicting and planning and
preventing
future problems by predicting them ahead
of time, that does the same thing. You
don't have to build, you know, together
a bomb shelter.
Uh that's not what I'm talking about.
I'm talking about
that
that the two of you know how to build
structure, how to how to reform this to
your liking.
You just have to know how to do it and
practice it.
And it has to be predicated on
principles that cannot be violated.
>> Jared, have you ever considered you
might have a drinking problem?
>> I don't consider a lot, Chris.
>> Well, you drank an entire case of
Athletic Brewing Co. last night.
>> But they're non-alcoholic.
>> And that's not a problem?
>> Sorry, man. I kept chugging waiting for
the regret to creep in. Never happened.
>> Didn't you end up going home with that
chick with the lazy eye?
>> I didn't seem lazy to me.
>> [snorts]
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>> If you could give
people, couples,
the
most important big movers, the most
important principles that they should
follow to create these secure
functioning relationships. That's what
everybody wants, right?
>> Yes.
>> The thing that is the most important,
it's going to help us steel ourselves
against the woes of the world and the
slings and arrows that are going to come
from outside of it.
What are the things that people should
focus on in order to do that?
>> On a on a more focused level, I'm going
to give you two, see.
On focused level, start now.
If you do nothing else,
uh make sure that you repair to the
other person's satisfaction. See their
face relax. If they're not relaxed,
you're not done yet.
Repair, fix, make it right, make amends
probably immediately or within 30
minutes.
Make that a habit, make that
a law, make that what must happen.
Otherwise, you're going to die sooner. I
guarantee you because of the the
cortical steroids you produce in that
stress when there's a breach. You're not
doing yourself any favors.
And [clears throat] you're setting the
other person up for and yourself for um
long-term damage. And that's you're not
going to want that.
So, fix fix it right away. I don't care
how you do that. If you can do nothing
else, you can say to each other, uh you
know, I hate you right now, but we're
okay.
It turns out that the we're okay is is
is sufficient
to be able to sleep through the night or
be able to get through your day cuz I
promise you if you don't do that, you're
you are not at your optimum performance
level. You can't be. Uh you won't be
unless you're paying attention.
So, you know what's good for yourself.
You just settle the existential question
that is there when there's a breach in
relationship when we fight,
will this relationship exist tomorrow?
Are we okay? If you can just do that,
minimum, you're better than most.
And
my wife and I have a
a rule.
We can go to bed angry, but we have to
at least touch toes.
And that's harder than you might think.
But um but that's been practiced and
there's an immediate reward for doing
the right thing when it's the hardest
thing to do. And that is your
self-esteem goes right up.
Because you know you did the hardest
thing, the right thing when it was the
hardest thing to do. We're already doing
the easiest things.
That's what we're already doing, but
that's not a good line.
A purpose-centered life
is decided ahead of time
that this is right, best,
or good, so say us both.
And we're going to we're going to plan
to do this for when we
actually
do not feel like doing it at all.
Uh even when I hate you, I still do this
beautiful thing. Even when I hate you, I
still don't do this destructive thing,
right?
That's a good life. That's the only
thing that's ever been a good life. That
is reliable. That earns love. That earns
respect as daily we're proving to each
other.
We stick to our principles. We show each
other and when we fail, we fall on our
swords, beg for forgiveness, and make it
right. Simple.
Um
and this the other thing is design your
relationship. Start with who are you,
shared power, shared authority,
something other than that. You've got to
be explicit and you got to think ahead.
Yeah, I'd like you to be in charge. I
like it.
I Okay. Remember that uh if uh if he's
in charge, you don't get the final say
on anything.
You understand that, right? Unless you
build that in somehow.
Right? And so
>> [clears throat]
>> you just have to
be adult and a grown-up because yours
your individual lives are now your own,
not your parents.
And this and as a couple, you're on your
own. You're the leaders here. There is
nobody else. No therapist, right? I'm
I'm not going to define your
relationship. You have to. It's your
gig. You can have it any way you want,
and believe me, people have some very
strange and
novel arrangements, right? Fine.
They're great because they fully agree,
they've worked it out, no problem.
But they it's all explicit. It's never
implied.
Right? Because
if it's implied,
I'm going to abuse that that that
reality, right? It has to be explicit
and agreed upon
like a blood oath.
Because
this is this really is about our lives
depend on on adhering to this. We have
to have to drink the Kool-Aid and buy
into it because we're in we're expected
to come through when we least want you,
and that's going to happen for sure.
>> Awesome. Stan Tatkin, ladies and
gentlemen. Stan, I think you're
brilliant. I think your work rules.
Where should people go to check out
everything you do?
>> All right. The PACT Institute is the
place to go to. t h e p a c t
institute.com.
If you're a couple, there's a couple
area
that is
devoted to you, workshops and retreats,
materials. And then if you're a
clinician,
that's how this started. Um
I we do trainings
all over the world, and you can find
that information there as well. Oh,
and there's a new product called the
Win-Win Couple. First time we've done a
filming on how to work together
collaboratively
under stress.
And that video is now now available on
the website. They go to
the PACT site.
>> Okay. Stan, I appreciate you. Until next
time.
>> Chris, you're terrific. I wish every
interviewer is like you.
>> That's what I wanted to hear.
>> All right. Thank you.
>> Congratulations. You made it to the end
of a podcast episode without dying. Now,
here's another one.
Go on.
>> [music]
>> Watch it.