How do you know you talk too much? So,
first thing is non-verbal cues. Someone
is checking out if they are opening
their mouth as if to say something. I
call it like the open fish. And that's a
subtle cue that you talk too much.
>> Do you think they're listening right now
and think that's me?
>> Yes.
>> And there was a recent study where they
found that 95% of people have worked
with someone who talks too much.
>> Well, I have a do you talk too much
test?
>> So, there's five questions here and if
you answer more than three times, you're
probably an overtalker.
>> Yeah.
>> Cuz my next question is like which one's
worse, over talking or underalking?
Well, I have spent the last 20 years
studying master conversationalists and I
found that it's the vehicle to get what
you want and I'm a recovering awkward
person and I really struggled with bad
conversation for a long time. But I
think the next generations will be
talking to technology more than they
talk to humans. And because we're having
less conversations, one in six people
worldwide are affected by loneliness.
And I now more than ever am sending
9-minute voice notes to my friends. But
a voice note, it's the most selfish form
of conversation. that in this age of
technological change, the people who are
masterful at conversation are going to
have an advantage. But there's a
blueprint to good conversation. And once
you know the blueprint, it becomes
easier. For example, we devised three
different speed networking experiments
with 500 speed networkers. And the best
conversation starter was actually what
was the highlight of your day? Because
the moment we asked how are you, what do
you do? They ran out of things to talk
about. But the worst question in the
history of conversations is but I also
have a formula to immediately bypass
that small talk. Also a secret door to
charisma but also there are five
archetypes and this is going to impact
getting our promotion and finding your
soulmate.
>> We're going to go through all of them
but one of the ways to get out of a bad
conversation without offending people.
>> Well, we tend to focus a lot on the
first impression, but we don't really
think about the end. But it's all really
important and I discovered this
framework. So
>> here is a strange fact. Most of the
people watching this right now, about
58% of you, aren't yet subscribed to
this channel. Statistically, that is
probably you. So, could I ask you a
small favor? If this channel has ever
given you any value at all, please could
you do me a favor and hit the subscribe
button. It costs nothing. It helps us
more than you could know. And the bigger
the channel gets, as you've seen, the
more we can invest in the guests and the
production. So, thank you so much, and I
hope you enjoy this episode.
Vanessa Van Edwards, on page five of
your new book, Conversations, you talk
about how we're in a connection crisis,
and you say that conversations are
getting harder, more awkward, and less
satisfying.
>> At some level, I feel that too. My
question to you is, why did you choose
to write this book based on, you know,
everything you could have written about,
everything we've talked about before?
Why is this book needed at this time?
People who are investing in conversation
skills right now are creating career
insurance. We like to work with people
who are great at conversation. We like
to be with people who are great at
conversation. We like to date people who
are good at conversation. And in this
age of tremendous
technological change, the people who are
masterful at conversation are going to
have an advantage. So, I wrote this
right now because we are slowly losing
our ability to connect. And I think this
is the last generation that will
learn about conversation via human. I
think the next generations will be
talking to technology more than they
talk to humans.
>> Is it possible to be great at
conversation? And if I become great at
conversation through what we're about to
talk about today, what is the advantage
that you're speaking about there? What
advantage will I experience in my life?
For everybody listening now, what
advantage will they see in their life
relative to where they are now?
>> Conversation is the vehicle to get what
you want, right? If you want a promotion
and you can chat with your boss where
they connect with you, you're more
likely to be thought of for that
promotion. If you want to meet your
soulmate, you have to have deep,
connected, meaningful conversation to
truly get to know each other. If you are
lonely, finding friends that are
actually fulfilling and give you the joy
of conversation is going to give you a
longevity boost. I think that the
mistake that we have made is we think of
conversation as extra. You know, we sort
of put it second. I know leaders focus
on this a lot where they're focused so
much on their idea, on their technology,
on their business, but they forget about
the human element. And I think we have
to start thinking about conversation
almost like going to the gym. You know,
we we focused a lot on our physical
health, but our social health is
critical to our emotional health, right?
If we are doing conversation reps, if we
can truly become good at conversation
and conversation, I think is a skill to
learn. I don't think it you're born with
it or you're not. I think you can learn
to be good at conversation. And it's the
one skill that keeps on giving.
>> Do people tend to know if they're good
or bad at conversation? Like are there
symptoms one experiences when they when
they're not good at conversation? Are
they aware of that?
>> Yes, there is symptoms of being a bad
conversationalist. And by the way, I
should back up. As you know, I'm a
recovering awkward person
and I really struggled with bad
conversation for a long time. And I
realized it was because I was asking the
wrong questions and I was approaching
conversation the wrong way. And the
wrong way to approach conversation is
trying to impress, not discover.
If you're trying to impress people,
conversation becomes performative. And
that is so deeply unfulfilling. Right?
That is when small talk becomes soul
crushing. I have spent the last 20 years
studying master conversationalists.
Master conversationalists, they live
differently in the world, and I only
know this cuz I wasn't one for a long
time. They are not only more joyous, but
they're also more confident. They're
more authentically assertive. They get
more energy from interactions, whether
they're an introvert or extrovert,
because their conversations are giving
them energy, not taking energy. The
symptom of bad conversation and I I hate
to give someone a label of being a bad
conversationalist, an exhausted
conversationalist is you dread it. Dread
is a really important emotion. If you
open your calendar and you see only
dread or you feel only dread, there's
something wrong, right? Conversation
like boosts us, gives us energy. So you
feel dread in social interactions. Um
you feel overwhelmed when you're in
conversation. So if you're in
conversation and you're social
overthinking, you cannot turn your brain
off. All you're worried about is what
you're going to say next. It's actually
just because you probably haven't
learned the mechanics of conversation
blue. There's a blueprint to good
conversation. We're going to talk about
it. Once you know the blueprint, it
becomes easier. And the last symptom of
bad conversation is that you leave
feeling misunderstood.
You leave feeling like I was the worst
version of myself or I wasn't able to be
my best self. I think really good
conversationalist people leave
conversation with them thinking, wow, I
after talking to you, I feel like I
understand myself better. And that's a
very different way of thinking about oh
I want to impress somebody.
>> So how long have you spent doing the
research that feeds into what we're
going to talk about today and feeds into
this new book.
>> Okay. So accidentally I've been doing
research for this my whole life because
I was very bad at conversation for 20
years. Then 20 years ago I realized that
there are these hidden blueprints behind
our interactions. I wasn't quite sure
what they were but I could see that very
good conversationalists they were
following some kind of plan. Then eight
years ago, this is when the real
research began. And it started with an
experiment. I call it my speed
networking experiment. This
fundamentally changed the way I think
about conversations. So here's what we
did. I knew there was some secret the
conversationalists had and I was like,
I'm going to find it. So we devised
three different speed networking
experiments with 500 speed networkers.
We brought them in these rooms and we
had cameras set up in all four corners
of the room because good conversation
looks different. Really good
conversation. You've seen you do you
ever like you know show a lot
>> of restroom like are they having a bad
day? Um, so you know a good conversation
is a lot of gestures, a lot of leaning.
It, you know, has that high energy. You
see a lot of vocal charisma. The volume
goes up. In a bad conversation, it sort
of sounds like this.
Like it has like very low energy, like
apologetic facial expressions, like low
volume. Then I assigned these networkers
six conversation starters. Now, I picked
these conversation starters. I'm going
to tell you what they are very
carefully. Three of them I thought could
do really well and three of them I
wasn't sure about. I wanted to see. We
gave them these six conversation
charters and we asked them after each
timed conversation to rate the quality
of it. One being that was the worst most
awkward conversation I've ever had to
five being that was the best
conversation I ever had. I want to marry
this person or I want to connect with
them on LinkedIn. Then we took all these
ratings and we ranked them and there
were clear winners and clear losers. The
losers, the conversations that produced
the worst connection, the most
awkwardness were last choice. Want to
guess what last choice was?
>> Last
>> in terms of an opener
>> in in terms of just a question.
A typical question you ask my first
minutes.
>> Number five, that was the fifth worst.
Very close to the bottom. Sixth was
>> something about the weather.
>> That what do you do?
>> What do you do? That was the worst.
>> The worst.
>> Okay.
>> Why? So these last two, how are you and
what do you do? They're very socially
scripted, right? The moment we ask those
questions, our brain goes into
autopilot. So, uh there's a lack there a
is more of a performance. There's a lack
of like excitement in the conversation
and they ran out of things to talk
about. They're fact-based questions and
this is the trap of what we'll call
level one conversation which is you are
trapped in fact. Where are you from? Got
any kids? Married? The facts are dead
ends, right? So, they're there it's very
hard for someone to break out of that
fact because they're stuck in that
social that social script. The best
conversation starter was actually a
sneaker. I was like, interesting that
this one did best by lot. It was, "What
was the highlight of your day?"
Now, what this question does
psychologically, it sounds casual. Well,
first of all, it's not too deep. A
mistake that extroverts can make is they
ask too deep too question too quickly,
right? They they're like, "What is your
greatest goal in life?" And you're like,
"I don't know you." Right? So, it's not
too deep, but it's a subtle replacement
for how are you? You're actually asking
the other person's brain to search for
optimism. You're literally inviting
their brain to think like what was good
and then they think well highlight of my
day. So one we just broke autopilot. The
most the moment someone goes oh and
they're thinking for the first time
their brain goes oo we get to we get to
do something new. So they got to think
of something new and it was immediate
like it wasn't like a too big of a
question.
>> The second question was have anything
exciting you're working on.
>> This is kind of a subtle replacement for
what do you do? Right? Right? If someone
likes what they do, they're going to
talk about it, but they're going to
reframe it in something exciting. And if
someone someone isn't defined by what
they do, they're going to share
something better. The third question,
very, very simple, was do you have any
fun plans coming up? These questions,
the three first three are literally
searching for good. You're inviting
other person to only think about good
things and we're juicing excitement for
other parts of their life. Now, the
fourth question, the middle one, almost
broke my data.
And this is where things really got
interesting for me as a researcher. This
fourth question, people either loved it
or they hated it. They either gave it a
five, that was like the most connective
thing I felt all week, or a zero. And a
zero wasn't even an option on my scale.
It was the question, what's your story?
Now, what's your story? Have you ever
been asked that question, by the way?
>> Derivatives of that question.
>> Okay. So extroverts tend to default to
that question because they want to go a
little bit deeper. But actually that is
a level three question. It is way too
advanced for someone who's introverted
or someone who has never like framed
their story that quickly. They're
immediately put into cortisol. They're
immediately put into fight or flight.
They're like what's my story? Like how
can I give that to you so quickly? So
you're by accident putting them into
conversational fear. This is when I
realize there's a hierarchy.
We have to move through our
conversations with different levels,
right? This is why we have this.
>> So for anyone that can't see because
you're listening on Apple Music or
Spotify or whatever, we have a three
tier little stage in front of us. Tier
one, tier two, tier three. What are
these three tiers?
>> Okay, so Dr. Dan McAdams found that
conversation is actually not as fluid as
we would like to think. that actually
when we're trying to connect with
someone else, we are trying to move
through three distinct levels. Level one
is called general traits. This is why in
those first few minutes you're basically
trying to Google fact check someone like
where are you from? What do you do?
Married? Where do you live in LA? Right?
Like you're trying to ask all those
questions because there's a sort of
social hierarchy. Our brain processes
social facts from least least intimate
to most intimate. So we cannot get to
know someone on their deepest dreams and
worries if we don't know the basic facts
about them. So that is why we often fall
into that trap of those fact-based
questions. The key here is that really
good level one question is taking those
facts but adding story but adding
emotion. So the the best way to to do
level one better is you're swapping out
those bad questions, right? How are you?
What do you do with looking for a story?
I truly believe a fact is a is a stop
sign. A story is a doorway.
>> Give me an example of both.
>> Okay. So, um one of them we're actually
we can place it on here is what's your
personal passion project? Okay. Now,
what's your personal passion project is
actually a hunt for stories, right?
>> And would you open with that? Is that
what you're saying? Or is it doesn't
really matter?
>> It has to come it can come in the first
few minutes. Now, I probably wouldn't
walk into a room and be like, "What's
your personal passion project, Stephen?"
Right? It's it's a little bit much. We
have to do our basic first impression
and we can talk about you know first 10
words in a little bit but as an opener
question it's better than how are you
and I have to pause here and say
everything I'm going to share takes a
little bit of conversational courage
>> it's really safe to ask how are you
really safe to ask what do you do but if
you want to be memorable if you want to
actually spark connection those won't
serve you so it does take a little bit
of courage to ask this but the answers
you're going to get are incredibly
interesting you're going to get stories
you're going to a hint at values. If you
want to know if they're married or have
kids, they probably will tell you by
accident. So, it's like a hunt for
stories. Same with, right, I mentioned
this one in the study. So, working on
anything exciting these days. This is
again one of my favorite swap questions
cuz you're hunting for something good.
Now, when I think about conversation in
level one, you're trying to gift someone
a chemical cocktail a little bit. And I
think in level one, these two questions
are doing a lot of heavy lifting. They
are now competing with your feed. I went
uh to a PTA meeting recently and those
are torture if you've ever been to one
for any parents. PTA meeting. Oh, a
parent teacher meeting.
>> Okay.
>> Right. So, a bunch of other parents in
the room and I wanted to go meet other
moms cuz I just moved across the country
to try to meet more people. And I was
like excited. I was like, "Okay, I'm
going to meet more moms. Here we go."
And I walk in the room and everyone's
scrolling. Everyone's on their feed. And
I realized, wow, conversation now. not
is not just about a way for me to make
friends. It actually has to compete with
that feed.
>> Mhm.
>> I have to make my questions and my
answers so dopamine worthy that they're
actually going to beat that feed.
Otherwise, they're going to go right
back to their phone.
That is why these have to do more
lifting. Because if I want to compete
with the feed, I have to produce
dopamine, a little bit of excitement, a
little bit of motivation. I also have to
create what I would call, forgive me for
this word, but conversational confetti.
This is like we got to we got to lift a
little bit more in our conversations
because otherwise someone's going to go
right back to scrolling. Their brain is
somewhere else. Either their brain is in
their email list or their brain is on
their feed. In this research when I was
studying amazing conversationalists, one
of the one people I studied is Howard
Stern. So, however you feel about Howard
Stern, he is a master conversationalist.
I mean, he can carry on long very
interesting. He gets people to say
things that I could never imagine. So, I
analyzed thousands of transcripts of his
interviews and I found one pattern. He
does a very good job of creating
information gaps. So, he'll say, "What's
the weirdest thing you've ever done?"
Or he'll say, "The most surprising thing
I heard that happened to me yesterday.
You want to hear what it was?" And your
brain doesn't like not knowing. So, when
it hears the most surprising, the
weirdest, the biggest, the worst, the
most embarrassing, the brain creates
this gap. like this is information gap
where the brain is like I have to know
>> what is the weirdest thing. So also what
happens with these kinds of questions is
we're creating these little information
gaps and actually saying and using in
conversation these phrases is a way that
we can create more intrigue and
interest. And I I know that sounds like
what? But think about this. If something
crazy happened to you yesterday and you
walk into dinner and you're like guys
the craziest thing happened to me
yesterday. Everyone's like phone's down.
>> Mhm. Right now, I couldn't say something
boring. I couldn't be like, I was stuck
in traffic unless you want to be funny.
>> But I think that looking for
opportunities to create that little bit
of conversational confetti, they come up
with questions like this.
>> This is the last one.
>> So, have any fun plans coming up? Now,
the reason why this one is important,
and I agonized over this, over this
third question, cuz there's three
questions for each level, is have any
fun plans coming up, is a subtle way to
bring up potential shared future.
Psychologically speaking, we bond with
someone when we feel like we could do
something fun with them or they're doing
something fun that I would also like to
do. I think that part of these questions
is being known for asking better
questions like being known for searching
for hunt or hunting for excitement
because what will happen is with people
who know you at work or your work
friends or uh outside of work friends is
they'll bring these things to you. They
know that you're going to ask out
personal passions. So next time you get
to say, "Hey, last time we were talking
you mentioned XYZ. How's that going?" So
they also become your call backs. They
make conversation easier later.
Everybody's starting from a remarkably
different place here, aren't they? In in
terms of both skill, but also like will
>> and energy and like willing to do it.
>> Energy. Like I think there'll be a lot
of uh one might say introverts listening
right now that just think what's the
point? Like
>> you know I don't like people anyway and
it's so much energy and I've got to ask
these questions and pretend to be
interested. This is going to drain me.
>> Oh my gosh. I I agree. And two things
can be true. It's very exhausting in the
sense of you're trying, right? Like
we're putting energy into conversation,
but it's also exhausting to have really
shallow small talk.
>> I find it exhausting to stand at an
event or be smoozing with people
backstage and be talking about nothing.
Do you want to have very boring,
predictable conversation where you're
less memorable and they're less
memorable and you're just waiting to get
home to Netflix? That's one heart.
That's not what I would choose. Or do we
choose the heart of I'm gonna break a
script, right? I'm gonna try to do level
one better. I'm going to try to, you
know, trigger a little bit of dopamine.
I'm going to try to learn something that
I didn't know before, which is going to
maybe, just maybe, bring joy. If you get
a really great answer, by the way,
there's two sides of conversation,
talking and asking.
>> I I think even for those introverts,
they have really, really big goals in
their life that they care about. Yeah.
>> Cuz if you can tell me how asking have
any fun plans coming up is going to help
me become a better CEO or founder or
>> whoever I want to be, father, mom,
daughter, whatever, then I'm in.
>> Yes. Okay. So, let's talk about founders
and CEOs specifically. There is a
mistaken belief and I work with a lot of
companies, right? I work with a lot of
founders. They believe that conversation
is anti-productive.
They worry that I don't know if I want
my employees to talk a lot. You know, I
I can't waste time on small talk.
The research shows the opposite. And
also, logically, if you think this
through, connected people collaborate
better.
Engaged employees work better together.
We are more productive when we feel
good. And in fact, the key word here is
friction. When you have a company who
that has a lot of communication
friction, you have employees who doubt
themselves. You don't have psychological
safety. They have a really hard time
brainstorming. You have people who
withhold information. You have more
information silos. Communication
friction cost companies money. And so if
you have a community of employees who
have very easy level one, they don't
need to get to level three. Like you
don't need to get to level three with
everyone in your company. You don't need
to get to level three with your Uber
driver. But if you have really easy
smell small talk, easy banter where
someone knows, oh yeah, I know exactly
what their personal passion project is.
I know who they are. I know what fun
plans they have coming up. The first 5
minutes of your meeting becomes not only
frictionless but actually pleasurable.
People show up on time. People are more
productive. People want to be there
because they actually want to connect
and and collaborate with her and this is
remote or in person, right? Because they
know they have these very loose ties and
loose ties actually make us more
productive and so we are looking for
frictionless communication and that
happens at level one. In fact, work
conversations should be really ideal
level ones.
>> Is this in part also the fastest way to
get to connection?
>> Yes.
>> Because these CEOs or founders or you
know busy people generally are very time
poor
>> for sure. So they don't have, you know,
30 minutes to move their way to
connection. But are you saying that
>> this is these are shortcuts. Okay.
>> Right. So like what's it's way worse for
a co to be like, shoot, I've been told I
better be warmer.
>> I have a lot of like most of my students
are brilliant, very talented, very
smart, but a little awkward and want to
get it done, right? They're much more
focused on the confidence and the
warmth. So they try to do warmth because
they they feel like they should.
>> And they're like, "How are those kids?"
And then it's like a social script.
Good. Or how are you? Good, busy, busy,
but good. And they're like, "It's not
working. It was anti-productive." No,
I'd rather you skip ahead. Make this
level quick and good. Right? So, like
the team intervention that I encourage
every virtual or inerson team to do is
once a week at the start of a meeting,
start with tell me something good. Very,
very quickly, everyone goes around very
quickly and they share one win or
something good. It can be small, it can
be big. That can take less than 3
minutes, less than 5 minutes, depending
how big your team is. We do it on our
Tuesday team calls at my team. What it
does is you've just created a safe, very
contained space for good level one. It's
only good. So otherwise, otherwise
people will accidentally complain,
right? They'll be like, "Oh, the weather
traffic, right?" But you're you're
putting a frame around it that's good.
You're time boxing it, right? Everyone
goes around really quickly, but you're
very quickly creating these these team
connections. So creating time in your
meetings, but also um in your culture to
ask slightly better questions. All of
these level one things have one thing in
common which is they provoke a positive
search and response.
>> Yes.
>> So that's really the crux of level one.
It just a question that's producing a
positive
>> it's not always positive.
I do believe in toxic positivity and
toxic positivity can kill a
conversational vibe very quickly. What
we're actually looking for is emotion
and story.
>> Okay.
>> Right. So I might say and by the way the
the my introverts I love my introverts.
They they always say, "Well, what if
someone says they don't?" That you ask
them, "What's your personal passion
project?" And they say, "I don't have
one." Well, great. What an opportunity.
If someone doesn't have a personal pass
project or they're going through a hard
time, they're having a bad day, you have
an opportunity to connect even better.
So, sometimes, it doesn't have to be
positive. You're looking for any kind of
real emotion. So, then someone says,
"You know what?
I've been really going through a hard
time and you know I don't haven't had
much energy to work on personal passion
these days and then you have the choice
you can say wow is there anything I can
do to help or you can say do you want to
talk about it so it's not always
positive it's looking for authentic
emotions and ideally story and this is
another uh one of the other master
conversationalists I study who is
excellent at level one is Jerry Seinfeld
so Jerry Seinfeld has a little
conversational trick and I this is in
level one of the book which is he often
meets people after his event and they're
so starruck by him that they don't know
what to say and conversation is really
awkward. He has a little awkward to meet
he's developed a trick and this works
really well for CEOs and introverts
which is ask a numbersbased question.
So instead of how are you you know where
do you live? So how long have you two
been together and then if it's 38 years
you say oh what's been the highlight of
your 38 years? If it's really short oh
you're in the honeymoon phase. That's
the best part. So, it's a numbers
question and this works really well for
introverts as well is because it's
fact-based. So, it's like an opener and
then usually from there it's a jumping
off point to a story. So, it's not that
level one should always be positive.
That's great if it can be, but
practically speaking it actually more is
that there's a small p a small emotion
or a small story.
>> Okay. So the other day I was in Las
Vegas and I was doing this sort of like
step and repeat meet and greet thing
with after the event and people come up
and they're kind of ushering them
through very quickly. So I always want
to you know say something to learn a
little bit about a person in that time.
>> What would you recommend? And this might
be applicable for networking generally
but what would you recommend?
>> Okay. So I always whenever after
speaking about books I say what was your
favorite part or what did you learn the
most?
>> So I immediately ask a question that I
want them to take home with them and
that's actually level two which we can
we can skip. We're not going to skip too
far ahead, but what have you always
wanted to learn or what are you learning
is actually going to level two. So you
can ask it, especially if someone's just
spent an hour listening to you.
>> Well, what's the difference between
level one and level two?
>> Oh, sorry. Yes, we skipped ahead. Okay,
so this we'll put a pin in this. One of
the thing I want to say about that
question is um I I read this framework.
I read about Dan McAdam's framework and
I was doing this conversation research
and then I got got invited to a party,
one of the weirdest parties I've ever
been invited to. And I get in and they
tell me to take off my shoes so I'm
committed, right? I can't leave. Yeah.
And then they go, "Guess what? We have a
rule for this party." I'm like, "What?"
They're like, "You cannot talk about
what you do." Now, this was a party of I
think very other successful people. And
all of us are like, "What?" Cuz I don't
know about you, but I'm I'm pretty
defined by by what I do. I talk about
it. I love it. So, I start to panic
because I'm like, "What do you even talk
about if you don't talk about that?"
because so many of our conversations
veer into work and so I had to one my
brain was flipped off autopilot
immediately and I had to get more
creative with my questions and I had to
also think that I want I was like I'm
just going to discover things them I'm
going to try to figure out what they do
by not asking and that was an aha moment
of we should treat level one these these
three bottom questions as a treasure
hunt that if you're going into it
looking for some kind of conversational
gold your questions have much different
int attention and especially what I
ended up asking was what do you talk
about when you don't talk about work
which was sort of this freedom it gave
us this freedom in conversation where I
want to give everyone permission that
really good conversation does not have
to stick to the same old boring topics
it does not have to be what you do it
can be about anything that is engaging
you or exciting you in that moment that
is level one level two so we have
general traits we must start there. We
cannot skip too quickly to level two.
Level two is called personal concerns.
Personal concerns is where we begin to
connect deeply. This is our motivations,
our goals, our values, our worries.
>> And I'm assuming you do level two once
you've got past level one connection.
>> Exactly.
>> So, this is us going deeper with the
person.
>> Exactly. Or or leveling up as you wish.
Right. As you wish. So, the mistake
traps people make is they skip level
one. They try to go too deep too quickly
and people feel like it's invasive.
Right? Especially when you're like,
"Whoa, slow down." Or it can feel like
an interrogation. So, we must know those
basics first, as long as we do them
better. Like, we don't do them in
autopilot way. Level two is when you
start to understand what motivates
someone. The kind of mental trick that I
use is, you know, you're on level two
with someone if you know what gets them
up in the morning, like what goal is
driving them all day, but you also know
what keeps them up at night,
>> what worries them. I, you know, I I
encourage people as they're reading like
think of the five people you interact
with most and place them on a level.
Like, do you only know the basic facts
about them? Are you all the way at level
three, which we're going to get to? It's
sometimes helpful. You'll notice
patterns. Like, I don't know about you,
but I love level two. Like, I want to
get through level one as quickly as
possible. I I want to get to your
motivations. I want to get to your
secret side hustle. I want to get to
your dreams and passions. I want to know
what keeps you up at night, but I can
sometimes jump too fast. Mhm.
>> Level two is about making someone feel
heard and understood.
And this is different than discovering
treasure. And the biggest skill that we
can do in level two is what I call dream
building.
So dream building is everyone has like a
secret desire, a secret dream, a secret
side hustle, a secret passion. Can you
be there and help them uncover it?
That's the goal of level two.
>> So give me an example of dream building.
>> Okay. So before we started, I said to
you, I have I have a new goal, right?
Like I'm I'm pitching a TV show. That's
like my secret side hustle. That's level
two for me. It's something that I've
been working on secretly and quietly.
And if we were at lunch, we would have I
would have told you all about it. We
double clicked on it. So like that's an
example of one. Another example to think
about is what does someone daydream
about, right? Like what is what is
occupying their mind in a good way? The
other way that I a framework that I give
for folks uh is a pet or pest project.
So, what is someone's pet project? Like
a pet at home, you kind of think about
it, you dream about it, you hope about
it. Like, what is someone hoping to
achieve or find or do? And what is their
pest project? Like, a pest in the attic.
It worries you. You wonder like, how can
I get rid of that pest? How can I um
eradicate it? And they want help with
it, but they're too afraid to ask. Pest
projects have a lot of shame.
On level two, people have to feel safe
enough to expose what they feel shame
about. But pet projects, the things they
love, have a lot of pride. And so you're
trying to figure out in conversation,
could you let someone feel safe enough
to share either one?
>> And are there questions that evoke dream
building?
>> Yes. Okay. So what have you always
wanted to learn is an interesting
question because it it triggers growth
mindset, right? So growth mindset is
when someone believes they can change
themselves, change who they are, change
their trajectory, learn something new.
So we we like this question because
you're asking, "Are you willing to grow
with me? What have you always wanted to
learn?" The other easy one is, "What is
your biggest goal right now?" So what is
your biggest goal right now is a great
question, and you can also time anchor
it. Anytime someone has a birthday, you
can ask, "What's your big goal this
year?" That's actually a level two
question, right? you're like like
leveling them up in a safe way because
they're talking about their birthday any
around New Year's January and December.
I ask everyone I know what's your
biggest goal right now, new quarter, new
performance review. When we talk about
goals, it activates a part of our brain
that triggers dopamine. When we think
about our future self, it activates a
part of ourselves that wants to get
motivated. And so level two is also
giving someone motivation that in
conversation, they're actually
discovering an aspect of themselves.
They're tapping into their own resource
for motivation.
>> It gives them permission to dream a
little bit and to
>> Yeah. And you're giving them the
motivation that they already have, but
you're bringing it into the
conversation. I think recently we are so
into intrapersonal. Like a lot of what
you see on social media right now is
mindset and mantra and affirmation and
productivity. And I love all of those
things. But that means that people are
actually using all that excitement alone
when they're journaling or when they're
meditating or when they're working on
their to-do list. We have forgotten,
I've noticed, to bring those goals into
conversation. We're almost like
embarrassed. I don't know if you've
noticed this, but I've it's almost like
people are like embarrassed to talk
about their secret side hustle or
they're embarrassed to talk about their
secret passion. If we give someone
permission to bring in what they have
been motivated about privately into
conversation, they get you get to be an
ally. with a dead end when you ask these
kind of level two questions.
>> Well, then you get to answer
>> because some people haven't quite
figured out what their biggest goal is.
>> Absolutely. Especially also sometimes um
introverts in conversation and I've
asked these questions to thousands of
people and all different kinds of things
happen when I do that. Introverts also
need more time to process. So you might
ask them, you know, what are you
learning right now or what's your
biggest goal? And they might in the
moment not know. They just need a little
bit of time to process. And so two
things can happen is if they don't have
it yet, that's okay. You also have
opportunity to share.
>> But what if I, you know, I ask, I'm
thinking because, you know, I know a lot
of uh taxi drivers listen to this
podcast cuz I get in taxis and we talk
about it.
>> Taxi drivers, you know, they're
conversationalists, often very good
ones. Um, but sometimes I guess a taxi
driver might be faced with the scenario
where the person in the back seat
doesn't want to talk and they might hit
them with one of these, you know, level
ones and then the level twos and and
they're just getting brick walls.
>> Then I would respect that, right? If
someone doesn't want to talk to you,
>> do you just back out?
>> Yeah.
>> Okay.
>> Because then they're going through their
own thing, right? Like if if
you have to have also courage to be
disliked,
>> right? Like you can try your best in
conversation. You can bring the best
questions, but if someone is not your
person or they are not ready to connect,
why would you waste your energy on that?
So, I also think that asking some of
these are like bids. It's like a bid to
see like, can we can we do this? You
want to banter with me? Should we have
level one? Should we even dip into level
two? Great. If not, cool. They're not
your person. It's not their day.
>> So, if they don't take the bait,
>> it's okay.
>> Okay.
>> I The taxi drivers usually ask me, um,
got anything exciting today?
>> Are we going anywhere exciting? Great.
That's a great swap for level one. I
should say by the way these questions
are suggestions. If you can modify them
to the to fit what you are doing even
better. Like for example, you and I are
in book signings or we we are meeting
after speaking events. It makes sense
for us to modify the learning or goal
question to say hey you know what did
you learn or did you learn anything new
or what was your favorite part? Right?
We're modifying that for us. A taxi
driver is going to modify it for are we
heading anywhere exciting
doing anything exciting today? So like
these are not prescriptions right? They
are guidelines to try to
make the research applicable. You know,
I've spent most of my career looking at
research, reading academic studies, and
some of them are 30 pages of jargon with
one nugget. And Dan McAdams research is
so incredible, but when I first read it,
I did not know how to use it. I was
like, general traits, personal concerns,
like level one. I wasn't sure. So, a lot
of these are just ways to activate the
behavioral research, the guideline
that's driving all of our interactions,
but you get to have flexibility with it
as it works for you. The goal in level
one, treasure hunt. Put someone at ease.
Ask them about what they love. Harvest
story. The goal of level two is to give
someone permission to share a dream, a
secret desire, or a secret worry. And
level three we get to get to in a little
bit when you're ready. Oh, we have one
more level. Level three. Hold on. Level
two question
>> on these questions. Do you have to
actually care about the answer? Do you
have to authentically care about what
their biggest goal is right now or what
their personal passion project is? Does
it matter if you don't actually care?
>> There have been times in conversation
where I'm not sure if I care yet.
So, I would say you don't care yet. What
if you ask the question and you're not
sure, you're not bought in yet, but then
you hear an answer that deeply resonates
with you or you deeply care about. I
think we don't know always if we're
going to care about someone cuz we've
just met them. But maybe you will,
right? Like, you never know who's going
to be your next best friend, right? You
never know when when you're going to
hear an aha moment that's going to
change your business. Like so many of
the pivot points in my business have
been from random conversations where I
happen to ask the right question and
someone gives me a brilliant piece of
advice.
>> So is it okay to pretend to care?
>> If you're asking the question, you care
enough to try.
Right? If you're listening to this
podcast, you already care enough to be
like,
I know I should
>> Yeah.
>> I know I should be a a master
conversationalist. Like so many leaders
who I work with, they might not feel
warm, but they know they need to be
warm. I think that's intent enough,
right? We just got to find the ones that
work for you.
>> And you talked a second ago about these
questions that lead to dead ends, which
are like,
>> "What do you do? What are the other
examples you gave?"
>> Okay. I have a a question that I I hate
a lot. I hate it a lot. I want it to
leave our vocabulary. It's the worst
question in history of conversation. It
is been busy.
>> Okay. Yeah.
>> Right. like
>> been busy. What do you do when you're on
the receiving end of those kinds of
questions?
>> Yes.
>> What What how do I counter that? Cuz I'm
going to get that everywhere forever.
So, how do I counter that?
>> Okay. So, every time, first of all,
boring questions make you boring. We
know this.
>> But boring questions asked of you are an
opportunity. In fact, I think you can
really surprise and delight someone by
breaking the script on their boring
question. You are going to be asked a
lot of boring questions. Let's talk
about two buckets here. The first bucket
is when you're asked what do you do and
you're going to be asked a lot. You
better have a great answer. I think
having a great answer to what do you do
is creating opportunities for yourself.
What most people make the mistake of
with what do you do and I have an entire
chapter about it in the book is when
you're asked what do you do, they're
looking for something, right? They're
trying to understand who you are. Maybe
they're even asking what are you worth?
>> Mhm.
>> Maybe. So now the ball's in your court
to break the script and to surprise
them. You want to give an answer that
explains exactly what you do, but then
gives them a little bit of a hook
>> as in like creates that curiosity gap,
>> a little bit of a little bit of
information gap, a little bit of
curiosity. And we don't want to over
complicate or be vague. So for example,
I was sitting in a coffee shop. I was
researching this book and I was
eavesdropping on everyone's
conversations because that's the best
way. You know, if you listen to
Conversations of the Wild, oh, the
things you hear are great. And I was on
my computer and I heard um she said so
what do you do? I think they were on
like a date and he goes oh I'm I'm have
a system I have a system for maximizing
achievement in young learners.
And she was like what? And he goes yeah
I you know I work with fifth grade
students and I have a system for how
they can learn math and reading. And she
goes oh you're a teacher. He goes yeah
I'm a fifth grade teacher. And I was
like wow. The intention there was to be
interesting right? He didn't want to
say, "I'm just a fifth grade teacher."
But he gave the brain too many calories,
like conversation calories. The conver
the brain wants the simplest, easiest
road possible. If we want to put people
at ease, what doesn't put people at ease
is having acting like you're reading
your resume.
>> Mhm.
>> If you're what answer to what do you do?
Sounds like you're reading your resume.
You are turning people off, right? It's
either jargonfilled or it feels too
formal or too complex.
>> So that answer that he gave was vague.
It was um
>> complex
>> complex
>> and it wasn't the social also didn't
didn't give me a late right like the
social hierarchy of facts. I have to
know what you do before I can know your
how.
>> So what should he have said?
>> Okay, what he should have said is not
the how but the what. I love why but I
think that that needs to come second.
What he should have said is I'm a fifth
grade teacher and I've been working for
the last 10 years. I developed this
really unique system that speeds up
reading.
Now we're talking because my brain went,
"Got it. Check." Fifth grade teacher.
Got it. Then I got to hear the how. Wow.
10 years. That answered another question
that we always have. How long have you
been doing that? Right? You're trying to
skip ahead. And then it added this hook
of I figured out how to get students to
read faster. So when you think of what
to do, I have a little formula if you're
willing to play around with it. And
again, a formula, always take it
loosely, make it fit.
>> I do blank
for who by how.
that is doing some it's like a gift to
the other person. You're giving them a
very clear label of what you do so they
can put you in a box. And I hate I hate
being put in a box, but unfortunately
our brains need it. Especially if it's
very easy to understand by who? Because
people always want, can you help me? Can
you help my friend? Is it for my sister?
And then if it fits your how.
>> A lot of people listening now are more
multihyenated than ever before.
>> Love a multi.
>> They do a this, a that, a violin, a
creator, a LinkedIn thing, a speech, a
dance, an improv.
>> So how do those people answer when
they're multihyphenators?
>> Oh, I love it. Okay. So, two things. A
multih high. We We understand complexity
as humans. We get it. So, you can say,
you know, I daylight as a fifth grade
teacher, but I moonlight as a
cinematographer, right? You can
literally say you're hyphen. If you're
in a career pivot, we have a lot of
students who come to us who are mid-
pivot. We love a hero story, right? So,
you can say, you know, I've been working
in marketing for the last 20 years, but
I'm thinking about going back to school
for psychology, right? Like we think
that people can't handle it, but
conversation can handle a lot and it
doesn't take a long time. Now, I do want
to make a note here, the mechanics of
conversation. So, there's two aspects of
conversation. There's the art, right?
Like weaving in excitement and
harvesting story, and I love that, but
there's also the mechanics. So, let's
talk about that first. So, uh the Cander
Corpus is a huge research study on the
mechanics of conversation. So, how long
do you think a typical turn should take
in conversation? Like how long should
our turns take?
>> 15 seconds.
>> Wonderful. 15 to 30 seconds.
>> Okay.
>> So, in um average conversation, we like
15 to 30 seconds. 45 seconds is okay,
but we start to turn to a monologue.
>> By this, you mean how long we speak for
each each
>> before I let you speak.
>> Yes. Before we start to feel like I'm
talking too much, it's not my turn. So,
15 to 30. And by the way, if you want to
go listen to previous Zoom
conversations, it can be helpful to know
if you're an overt talker or an
undertalker. Right. under 15 seconds you
might be actually creating
conversational scarcity like not asking
like not asking enough not talking to
talking enough
>> which one's worse do you find
>> well I'm an overt talker so I'm going to
say undertalking
>> cuz I'm an overt talker so I'm going to
say it's worse I'm going to say it's
worth talking by the way can I take a
hit at podcast for just a second
>> sure
>> so the other reason I wrote this book is
I think the art of conversation is being
systematically stripped away piece by
piece and it's well-intentioned
This is not a natural conversation,
right? Like I'm in an interview. I would
never normally take this long on turns
if we were having dinner. You're reading
notes. I'm I have notes. But more and
more of our
off time is listening to podcast
conversations, but those are not real
conversations. Those are interviews. So
one is we are hearing conversations that
are not real. They are a bit
performative, right? And they're not
following the mechanics of conversation.
That is affecting our conversational
muscle in our brain. Second is we're
having more and more asynchronous
conversations. I now more than ever am
sending 9minute voice notes to my
friends.
>> Damn. Wow.
>> Right. They send them back to me. What a
voice note is is not a conversation. A
voice note is a monologue. And when
you're giving a voice note, I don't get
the, "Oh, it's my turn. Me too. How dare
you. I don't like that. I don't agree."
Like, there's no back and forth. In
fact, it's the most selfish form of
conversation. And this is from someone
who sends a lot of voice notes because I
don't get I don't need to hear your
opinion. I get to go as long as I want.
I don't have to worry about whatever
you're doing. And I'm usually
multitasking, right? I'm listening to my
best friend's voice note while I'm
cleaning or cooking or exercising. So
that has skewed it because we then get
into real conversation and it feels hard
because our muscle has been atrophying
with this asynchronous. And then we are
also conversing less. You know, only
three in 10 Americans socialize on a
day-to-day basis. Only three in 10
Americans socialize on a daily basis.
Meaning they're having more time alone
and they are conversing less. And that
is because we're able to do so much work
asynchronously. We also spend so much
time on our on our self-care, our
longevity, our workouts that we are just
doing less with other people. And one in
six people worldwide are affected by
loneliness. And I think that is because
we are having less conversation. And if
we're having it, it's happening
asynchronously or and this is the last
hardest point is we are now talking to
technology more than talking to each
other. And I don't just mean through
technology. Yes, we've been talking
through technology for a long time, but
only recently are we talking to
technology. And when I talk to my
technology, it sounds different than
when I talk to you. Like I was sitting
next to my husband and he was working
and he was like talking to his AI and he
was like, "Do better. do that's terrible
work. Do better. And then I asked him a
question. He turned to me and I was
like, "You better not tell me to do
better." You know, and that is because
I, you know, we're talking technology in
a way that we would never talk to other
humans, but our brain doesn't always
know the difference. And so I think this
muscle is atrophying. And on this point
of like knowing whether you are a good
conversationalist talker, um there was a
recent study of over a thousand
Americans and they found that 95% of
people have worked with someone who
talks too much. These chatty co-workers
spend an average of 90 minutes of their
workday just talking and 71% of
respondents said talkative co-workers
prevented them from getting their work
done.
>> Yes.
>> How does one know if they are the person
that talks too much? First is let's do
an intervention on this is go back if
you have recorded zoom calls and just
time yourself. There is a kind of
appropriate right 15 to 45 seconds 45
seconds the most. Second non-verbal cues
someone is checking out if they are
opening their mouth
as if to say something. That is a subtle
cue that someone wants a turn but they
are going to wait. So if someone is
opening their mouth I call it like the
open fish.
It means they want to turn. Like you did
it to me earlier and I totally stopped.
>> Yeah you did. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Cuz I was I was like, "Oh, he
wants to say something."
>> Yeah. No. So, I do I actually do give
people cues that I want to say something
>> sometimes. And some of them see them and
some of them just do not.
>> And I was like fully distracted. I was
like,
>> you you you're on this more sensitive
end of the scale where you're almost
watching what I'm doing. And it's and
you know, having done what 700 of these
interviews now, it's really fascinating
to me that some people I have to like
remain completely utterly ski still
because they are surveilling me for cues
that they're doing a good job or they
want them. And so if I move or like look
away, I they immediately change.
>> Whereas other people don't even know I'm
here, which is actually what I prefer
>> because then I can like grace these
notes and look in the books and I can
like go to the toilet and come back and
you know, it's just easier.
>> And this is why this is not natural
conversation.
>> But I think people like you are better
at conversation because you see
conversation not as a megaphone in which
you're shouting through. You see it as
continual feedback. And that's why I
have to sometimes be on edge with people
like you cuz
>> Yeah.
>> I know that you're taking cues from me,
>> right? And also like I'm looking for
your eyebrow raises.
>> Yeah.
>> Right. Like one is Neil Degrass Tyson
says that every book is every eyebrow
raising thing he's ever said because
he'll go on airplanes. He'll just talk
to people and when they go that he
writes it down.
>> And so I'm doing the same thing for you
is I'm looking at your eyebrows very
closely. Don't ever get Botox. It'll be
so hard to read you. And so if you raise
your eyebrows, I want to double click on
it. Right? Because you're you're the
taste maker, right? I know I'm I'm
saying things interest me but might not
interest you. So if you say something if
you raise your eyebrows I'm going to go
deeper or give you an example or tell
you a story and and this is like this is
why this is not a normal conversation
and conversation will go like this those
moments go viral.
>> Mhm.
>> Right. Like when you go
>> like those are like the replayed parts
>> like the amputt thing
>> right and and and unfortunately we're
all here cuz we're trying to to reach
people right and so if you are going and
you raise your eyebrows and I'm going to
double click. So, if no one is doing
that to you, if you're in a conversation
back and forth and there are no eyebrow
raises and there's no ooh a wow and they
are either looking away or having that
open mouth, and by the way, that's also
how I can interrupt someone. If I want
interrupt someone politely, I'll go,
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>> I'll be honest, Vanessa,
>> I was thinking about um someone that I
might consider to be in the overalking
category.
>> Yeah.
>> And when they talk, I don't think they
have any concept that there's anybody
else in the room.
>> Yeah.
>> I think they they might as well have
their eyes completely closed. That's
kind of I was just thinking about it the
other day when I was with this person
and they might as well be sat there like
this and they're just and they're going
to finish when they feel like they've
run out of things.
Okay, this is there are two types of
conversational people. There's
entertainers and appreciators.
>> One of the biggest questions I get is
how do I talk to VIPs? How do I talk to
my boss? And this is exactly this. And I
don't know if they're a VIP or not. It
actually doesn't matter. They are an
entertainer. The way I discovered this
framework is I was in the green room for
a speaking event and a very famous
person came in. I can tell you who it
was later. Very, very famous.
>> Who was it?
>> We're going to cut this. No, we keep it
in.
>> He's I think he's pretty famous.
>> Massively famous.
>> Okay. Okay. He comes in and we have like
a little bit downtime before he has to
go up. And I watched person after person
try. You know what? You know when you
watch someone try and this is the same
thing when someone's approaching their
boss or a VIP and they all tried the
same way. Either a compliment or a
question. Oh, I love I love your stuff
so much. I've been, you know, watching
you since I was a kid. Oh my gosh, you
changed my life, right? Compliment or
question. Oh, what's what's the best
thing you've ever done? I won't get too
specific, you know? What's what was your
you have any advice for me as a young
person, right? It was either compliment
or question. He was just not having it.
Yeah. Yeah. Nice to meet you, right?
Like quick selfie, just not engage. And
I was like, wow, that's what I would
have advised back then. Either go with a
compliment or a question. No. Then one
person came up. It was actually one of
the AV guys, so he was going to mic him.
And he said, "Can I tell you the
funniest story?" He's like, and you
could literally see him was like,
"Yeah." And this guy begins to tell him
hilarious stories about the first time
he watched one of his movies, hilarious
stories about him and his siblings
playing sports and you know, he's
laughing. The guy is laughing and then
he starts asking him questions. And I
realized he wants to be entertained. He
doesn't want to entertain him. So what I
realized was there are certain people
who want to entertain. They speak longer
so they're they're more at risk of
talking too much. They want you to laugh
at their jokes. They want to share their
stories. Their love language in
conversation that what gives them energy
is other people giving them adoration or
listen to their stories, listen to their
ideas. They love giving advice. They're
they talk more in conversation. The
other type of person, and I think this
is you, and actually this is me, even
though it doesn't look that way on
podcasts, we are appreciators. I talk
all day long for my work. The last thing
I do when I want to go to dinner is
talk. In fact, when people ask me deep
questions, I sometimes I'm like, "Can we
go back to level one and can you just
tell me everything?" Appreciators talk
less. They love to laugh at other
people's stories. They love to hear
interesting, awe, weird, surprising,
embarrassing things. They are much more
hesitant to open up about themselves.
Like, as long as we've been talking, we
are not personally on level three,
right? like we are able to hide that
because we keep it back. It is critical
when you're talking to bosses or VIPs to
know which one you're talking to.
Entertainers want questions, but
appreciators want people to tell them
stories, right? They don't want a lot of
questions. So, your friend is an
entertainer. So, you get to make the
choice of are you going to go into their
superpower and let them just entertain
you and keep going and keep talking as
much as they want, or do you want the
ball? What if the thing they're saying
is
because when you hear entertainer, I I
interpret that as you're coming up to
someone and sharing something that is
fun and interesting and whatever. But
there's some people that roll up and
they say
>> they're boring.
>> They talk about themselves and that's
what they want to talk about. They want
to, you know, could be a self-esteem
issue. They want to convince you that
they are whatever.
>> Conversational narcissist.
>> Okay. Is that a thing?
>> Yeah. So, these are people in
conversation and this is when the levels
still hold. In fact, sometimes a
conversational narcissist will take
themselves. They'll walk themselves
right up all three levels. They'll
they'll answer for themselves in level
one. They'll tell you all about their
goals and they'll tell you the most
deepest things that you did not want to
know. And that's when you get like
verbal vomit, right? Like someone just
like they won't stop talking and they're
just telling you things you didn't even
want to know. You have a choice. You can
either try to teach them that that's not
the way that they should be in
conversation and you can literally say,
"Is it my turn yet?
Do you want to hear about mine? Do you
want to hear about my goal? Right? Like
if this is a person you're going to
invest in and you care for and you like,
you have to you have to stand up for
what you want to share.
>> In your experience, where does that
conversational narcissism come from?
Like
>> insecurity.
>> Yeah.
>> Right. This person's insecure. I don't
even know them. They are insecure. And
also I my bet is they're trying to
impress you.
>> My my bet is they're trying to find
something to raise your eyebrows, but
they don't realize that the more they
talk, the more you're like Can I go
home?
>> Do you think they know that they're a
conversational narcissist? Do you think
they're listening right now and think,
"Fuck, that's me or do they not have
that level of cuz the person that I was
I was referring to, they know they talk
too much cuz they say it and they've had
the feedback multiple and they literally
will say I talk too much but then they
can't seem to stop because it's so
deeply ingrained in them from their
childhood."
>> So, I'm wondering if they, you know,
they're listening now and they go,
"Okay, that's me." Cuz my next question
is like how do they fix it?
>> Curiosity. Okay,
>> that's an easier question. I actually
don't think there's a hard and fast
rule. Some conversational narcissists
are aware of it and hate themselves for
it.
>> Like they literally know they're doing
it and they're so they're like, "Why?
Stop talking." Like they literally know
what's happening and they're like, "Why?
Why am I doing this?" But they can't
stop cuz they're so scared of the
awkward silence. And by the way, we we
asked, you know, a couple thousand
people, what is your greatest
conversational fear? I thought it was
going to be rejection or judgment. No,
it was awkward silences
or not knowing what to say. very
mechanical and I thought, "Wow, 4,000
people, their biggest conversational
fear is not being rejected." That was
one of the options on the multiple
choice. It's running out of things to
say. So, the reason they're talking too
much is cuz they are terrified of that
moment where they're sitting with Steven
Bartlett and there's a silence and then
you're like, "Bye."
>> I like the silence. I mean, as a
podcast, you have to come to terms with
the fact that the guest might stop
talking at any moment and you might not
have anything else to say.
>> That's why I don't have a podcast. I
don't have a podcast. So, and then the
way the way that they fix it is
curiosity, right? I I do believe in like
assertive curiosity. Like not just the
followup like tell me more, but like the
what, the how, the why, the when. I
think that those like what, how, why,
when, that assertive curiosity of like
let's actually dig into this dream. Like
let's really talk about it. Wait, I'm
confused. So, if we had a conversational
narcissist here,
>> Yeah.
>> are you telling me how they would
recover from that?
>> They would recover from it by being
aggressively or assertively curious
about you.
>> Okay. But they know they know. I feel
like they know that. I feel like they
know they talk too much.
>> Okay. Then I'm going to say something
you're not going to like it. Maybe
you're not giving them enough to be
curious about. What I would ask next
time is, are you curious about me or do
you not feel the curiosity? Because
saying do you want to know my answer or
is it my turn yet is a way of being like
is there curiosity there?
>> M
>> I think that's really important like I
think in relational patterns like there
are rel conversational patterns that we
can have. So we're talking a lot about
newish people but how about the people
you've known for a long time. My ch my
goal my my deepest wish for this this
podcast is that you will go have a
conversational a cornerstone
conversation with someone and ask all
nine questions. Now, if you're in a
conversational rut, and this can happen
in friendships,
it can happen with people who are used
to being the overt talker in the
relationship. It can happen in marriages
or marriages where you only talk about
logistics.
This is going to break the rut because
the whole point of this is turn taking.
So, I would be just so curious if you go
to dinner with this person and you're
like, "Hey, my friend Vanessa came on
the pod and uh she gave us nine
questions. Do you want to do them
together? I'll go first.
Could she do it? It's a she, right?
>> He
>> he could he do it. Right. Could he do
it? And so that this is how you can
break that rut to see if there's actual
curiosity there because I have I I
always assume the best in people. I'm
hoping that this person is very
well-intentioned, just has deep
insecurity.
>> It is that it is the case.
>> If you were to give a framework, it can
sometimes break you out of a
conversational rut with someone.
>> H I remember I think it was you that
said to me that the key to great
conversations or interactions was being
interested not interesting.
>> Yeah. After Dale Carnegie. Yes. I wish I
had created with it. So Dale Carnegie is
sort of the the person who
allowed me to think about being less
selfish. I think that if you go into a
conversation thinking all about
yourself, how can I be impressive? How
can I be smart and funny? And how can I
get them to like me? That's okay. But
it's quite selfish and it's a lot of
pressure. It's a lot of pressure. When I
started thinking, how can I go into
conversation putting this person at
ease? How can I make them feel like they
can impress me? How can I be interested
so to make them interesting? And by
hopefully that has a rebound effect of
making me interesting. That is a very
selfless conversational generosity.
One small goal for the book was to
create more conversational generosity.
that if you're in conversation and
someone is overtalking, you can be
generous enough to either say, "Hey, can
I have a turn or to let them entertain
you cuz they're entertainers?" or to ask
even more questions.
>> And you said to me last time that there
was a study that found the most liked
people were those that were interested
in others in conversation.
>> The most popular kids were the kids who
had the longest list of people they
liked.
Meaning, if you want to be likable, you
have to go around assertively and
aggressively liking as many people as
possible. Because if you go into
conversations thinking, "How could I
like you? How could I like you? How
could I like you more?" It's less about
you and you're asking questions that are
setting them up to be likable. I wonder
and I wish I could take a crack at this
conversational narcissist that you know,
if I were to ask more questions of them,
like really set them up to entertain me,
to get deep, to actually let them go to
level two and maybe even level three if
they want to, would they calm down?
Would their insecurity feel I'm
understood? I'm chosen. I'm loved. I
think, and this is just you're an
intimidating person, right? Like I I
thank goodness have confidence, but if I
was dinner with you, I think I would
feel a little bit nervous, too. Maybe
not anymore, but when I first met you,
for sure two years ago, my guess is that
this person doesn't feel liked, doesn't
feel understood by you, and doesn't feel
chosen by you. And the quieter you
become when you're just trying to
respect them, the quieter you become,
the more they don't feel those three
things as they keep talking. So, I would
try to ask better, deeper questions,
like lean into it and see if that can
get them calm enough to be like, "Oh, he
chose me. He loves me."
>> What's interesting is I observe with um
people like that that that they step
more into the conversation narcissism
with certain people.
>> Yes. Yes.
>> So, with certain individuals. So, for
example, in this case, if I was a
beautiful woman,
>> Uh-huh.
>> Uh, this individual would would be
fullblown like word vomit, like it would
fully come out,
>> you know?
>> Yeah.
>> Or just women generally, even if it's a
a platonic relationship,
>> becomes even more like intent on
>> wants to be understood, chosen, and
loved by that beautiful woman.
>> Yeah.
>> Right. Like such a deep desire. And so I
I wonder if you could disengage it with
actually answering those three questions
for them, like putting them at ease. I
also think it's important to talk about
an aspect of bad conversation is making
the driver of the conversation feel like
they're a bad driver,
right? This person is driving
conversation, right? Like they know
they're an overtalker and they're
driving and all the passengers are like,
"Oh my gosh, this person's so bad." And
what does the bad driver do? They get
even more tense.
>> Mhm.
>> They get even worse at it. And so the
flip side of that is how can you make
them feel like a better driver? And one
way that we accidentally the opposite of
dream building is dream killing. So
dream killing is when we shut down a
dream. We make someone feel not liked,
make them feel not understood. I think
that very smart people have an
accidental effect where they dream kill
with
>> logic.
>> Mhm.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, I I call it my my lovely smart
leader is I say you're fact-checking,
not gut-eing.
Right. If you're fact-checking all the
time, if you're, you know, trying to
accuracy kill, but they're not there
yet, you're actually creating a a
conversational scarcity that's going to
make them feel like, I have to prove
myself. I have to dig in. Now, I'm going
to talk you more cuz I want to convince
you. And so, I think um the opposite of
dream building is dream killing. And
very smart people tend to dream kill by
accident. And it shuts down connection
completely. Like, not only will you not
get to level two and not you'll you'll
bounce on level one or you won't have a
relationship with that person. I was
just thinking about in my previous
company, we interviewed somebody and
they were extremely extremely
intelligent and it was really obvious to
me how intelligent they were like
unbelievable. Their credentials
unbelievable and then they went through
the interview process and the interview
feedback from the people that met them
was like neutral or negative.
>> I remember thinking, do you know what it
is? This person is so obsessed with the
pursuit of truth that they put being
liked or being pleased or whatever to
the side. They just care if what you're
saying is true or not.
>> That's it. And that in some respects
might hold them back. It's also like why
I think that this person is amazing, but
getting through like an interview
process, all those sort of social
dynamics would would be really tough,
right?
>> And this takes us back to why
conversation is essential. Very smart
people think all about their ideas,
their knowledge, the facts. But you can
be the smartest person in the room, but
if people don't feel connected to you,
they don't believe your smarts. That
comes directly from the research.
Competence without warmth is likely to
leave us feeling suspicious.
So you could be incredibly smart, but if
you cannot manage the mechanics of
connective conversation, people feel
suspicious. It literally triggers a part
of their brain that goes, "I don't know
about this person." And so the reason
why level one is so critical, but we
can't skip it, is what we're doing is
we're trying to create ease. That's
another way of saying warmth, right?
We're trying to make it so someone feels
like they can be understood with us. And
then if they're understood, they're
chosen. And if they're chosen, they're
loved, right? like it's a three. And
this actually brings me to the third.
I'm so bad at this. Let's see. I was
like that. So, I struggled with this uh
what are we on? Sixth question because
there by the way I started this research
with over 100 questions and I was
testing them. I mean I was making
everyone try every different kind. I was
using my students. They were trying
them. I was seeing also I wanted to make
sure they worked at work. They worked at
home and they worked with kids, right?
Right? Like you can do a lot of the and
you have to alter them slightly, but I
want to make sure they work across the
board. And the sixth question is
actually a signature question. So this
is taking a step back and thinking, what
do you love to talk about? What do you
love to talk about in conversation? What
do you love to talk about in
conversation?
>> When you're talking,
>> what do I love to talk about?
>> Yeah. Not hear about necessarily, but
talk about
>> Oh gosh.
>> We're going to reverse engineer it. This
six question is about reverse
engineering your love. I like to talk
about psychology,
>> of people and stuff.
>> Okay. Okay. So, great. Okay. So, we you
would want to reverse engineer questions
about how and why. If you love
psychology and behavior, you're going to
want to ask someone why did you make
that choice? You know, what made you
choose that path? You're going to want
to ask more behavioral questions. Even
in an interviewing perspective, let's
talk about this for a second. So, I
believe in behavioral interviewing. I
believe in interview questions that
actually let you know about someone's
behavior, not just their opinions. Mhm.
>> So, for example, interviewers will make
the mistake of asking, "What's your
greatest weakness?"
It's not a good question because they're
going to answer with a prepared answer.
It's not going to be real. It's not
going to tell you much. I would rather
you ask, "What would your last manager
say is your greatest weakness?"
That's a very different question. First
of all, it's not going to be as
practiced. Maybe after now it will be,
but you're asking the person to step
outside themselves from a behavior
perspective. When we step outside of
ourselves and think about someone else's
opinion, we see different things even
about ourselves and likely they're going
to call your previous manager.
>> Mhm.
>> Right. So, they can confirm that in a in
a phone call. And you could even say,
you know, when I call your previous
manager, what would your previous
manager say is your greatest weakness?
You're going to get a juicy answer,
right? And you can go verify it.
>> Another behavioral technique, which is
why I like behavior so much, is not just
asking, "Tell me about a recent time
that you managed a project." Right?
Right? We always ask for examples in
interview. That's okay, but not great
cuz they're going to pick the best one.
What you're better off saying is, tell
me about the most recent time you
managed a project. It should be in the
last 3 months, 2 months, not a year or
two ago. So asking for recency, asking
for other people's opinions. The reason
why I say this is because that would be
crafting a type of answer that you want,
trying to craft information about a
previous experience that is real and not
rehearsed. So for you, you'd be wanting
to ask more behavior questions when
you're at dinner, when you're here,
obviously because that's what you love.
Many successful people have signature
questions. Like I know Amy Polar at the
end of her podcast, she always asks,
"What are you laughing about? What's
making you laugh recently?" That's her
signature question. example I use in the
book is Jenny Urick has a challenge a
thousand hours outside which is spending
a thousand hours with her kids outside
playing more outside off of screens and
she asks everyone her podcast what was
your favorite outdoor memory because she
loves talking about outdoors and and
childhood nostalgia so the sixth
question is inviting what do you love to
talk about how can we engineer that in
your conversations by looking for
opportunities to bring it up
>> so at this stage I would turn to
somebody when I when I feel like I've
got that depth with them and I'd say
what do you love to talk about and they
might say do you know I really love
talking about sports and then are you
saying that opens a door and gives me a
clue as to how to connect with them so I
future conversations with them should
orientate towards sports or psychology
or whatever their answer was
>> no it would be you can ask what do you
love to talk about it would be you
Steven love to talk about behavior so
you are going to ask more behavioral
questions of them so you get to create
your sixth question
>> right so like right now because I'm
talking about conversation, my signature
question is, "What's your favorite
conversation starter?"
>> Okay.
>> Right. When I was researching cues, it
was, "Who's the most charismatic person
you know?"
>> Mhm.
>> When I was researching Captivate, it
was, "What's your favorite body language
cue?" Right. Or do you ever think about
body language? So, it can change based
on your interest, but you're creating it
for yourself.
>> Okay. So, this one's a bespoke one. You
get to write this one yourself.
>> Yes. Exactly. Exactly.
>> Got you. So, I'm interested in
psychology. So, this one would be
psychology related topics for me,
>> right? or like what drives you
behavioral.
>> I actually think that some of the level
three questions might interest you, but
I'm curious. Okay,
>> let's see. All right, level three. Are
you ready?
>> Wait, before we do level three, just
want to close off on this uh do you talk
too much test?
>> Okay, so
I have a do you talk too much test in
the book. It's right here. So, you're
going to ask yourself, I leave a
conversation realizing I don't know much
about the other person.
>> Okay,
>> that's a secret curiosity question.
>> So, there's five questions here. And if
you answer often more than three times,
you're probably an overtalker.
>> That's it. And all of them secretly,
Stephen, are saying, "Are you curious
enough?"
>> Okay?
>> Right? Because we know that curiosity is
the antidote. So I put this right at the
end of level one because you really
can't go to level two if you're talking
too much.
>> Okay?
>> You're not curious enough. You're not
going to learn their dream.
>> So question one. So if I say yes to
three of these, then I'm probably an
overtalker. Correct? So first one is I
leave the conversation realizing I
didn't know much about the other person.
I'd say rarely. After I finish speaking,
people nod politely, but don't always
respond.
>> Sometimes.
>> I love telling long detailed stories,
especially when people are too polite to
interrupt.
>> Do you ever tell a long detailed story?
>> Only when I'm on stage and I'm and
someone has paid me to.
>> That doesn't count. Okay.
>> Doesn't count.
>> Sometimes I'd say, um, I've been told
gently or not so gently that I talk a
lot.
>> Rarely. I've never been told that.
Number five, while I'm midstory, I
notice people glance around the room
sometimes.
>> So, you pass.
>> Okay.
>> Now, I could have told you that also,
but yeah, you pass.
>> So, those it's really important because
it might be creating conversational
friction, right? Especially at work. And
the best muscle you can do is asking
more, talking less. And a challenge, a
very specific challenge,
>> please do a yap challenge. Do you know
what a yap challenge is? Oh, a yap
challenge. A yeah challenge is you open
up your phone camera and you teach
something or share an opinion about
something without notes and you hit
record. If you go naturally 15 or 30
seconds, you're probably good. If you're
hitting 45 seconds, that's the max. If
you're up to a minute or 2 minutes, you
probably talk too much.
>> H about yourself or just
>> about yourself about like that. That
your typical answering length is longer
than conversationally appropriate
>> to a question about you. It a yap
challenge could be share your opinion
about veganism.
>> Damn, I didn't think I could get that
done in 15 seconds.
>> What's your answer?
>> No, not to veganism. Just generally like
if it's an idea, everything in my head
is a story first. So, it's like,
>> you know what though? Introverts can.
>> Introverts absolutely can. And they'll
often go too short.
>> Okay.
>> Like for example, I'll give I'll give
you a yap challenge that I was just
thinking about the other day and we're
going to do it on social media. We'll do
it together. Yap challenge. Someone
recently asked my friend out by asking
for her Instagram handle, not her
number. Agree or disagree?
>> It depends
>> on
>> her vibe. Was she what how what energy
was she giving and what was the context?
Was that after a 2-hour date? Was that
>> just meeting her on the street?
>> Rolled up on the street. I think it's
actually I agree then because it's less
invasive. It's like I will earn your
number.
>> Oh. Oh wow.
>> Give me the chance to earn your number.
>> Okay. You just convinced me. That's
interesting. So, by the way, I think
that was what 12 seconds.
>> Okay. Yeah, maybe.
>> Right. So, like you you're keeping it
tight. I disagree. But that that is an
interesting nuance.
I'm not going to give you my Instagram
because my Instagram is performative.
Everyone's Instagram is performative. If
you are looking at my Instagram, it's
like saying, "I don't want to get to
know you through conversation. I'm going
to look through everything and know
everything about you before I decide if
I want to take you out." And you take
the joy out of discovery. If I'm with
you and I'm like, "Do you have any
pets?" And you're like, "Yeah, I have a
dog." Then I can, "Oh, how'd you get the
dog? What's the dog's name? How'd you
choose that name?" Versus, "Uh, look,
she has a dog named Stewie."
>> But you know, your number is reserved
for people in your like personal
professional life. So, what you're
saying if you roll up on the street is
you're saying, "Let me in to your
personal and professional environment,
stranger." Whereas the public
environment, which is Instagram,
>> is I think a much more socially
appropriate place to invite oneself
into.
>> Okay, let's fight about this.
>> Okay,
>> if you do that, your conversation is
going to be more awkward on your first
date
>> because
>> because you feel like you've already
learned about the person. So maybe
you're discovering more of their public
persona, but you've seen their kind of
friends, where they hang out, what they
do on the weekends, do they hike or not,
do they have any pets? Oh, look, there
they are at Thanksgiving. They have lots
of siblings. This is, I think, why we're
having awkward first date conversations,
why first dates have gotten even worse,
is because you're on the first date,
you've already discovered all level one
stuff that you think you know. So now,
even though you have your very first
conversation, you you kind of have to go
to level two, it's so much harder and
it's unnatural. It's unnatural to know
all this information that wasn't
transmitted human to human that was done
in a performative way. And then you have
to get in person and it's harder to come
up with conversation starters because
you already know a lot. I also think
what I would say is if someone were I'm
not single. I haven't been single a long
time. But if someone were to say, "Can I
have your Instagram?" I would say, you
know, I I have one for just friends and
family, but maybe you can get there one
day.
>> You would say that?
>> Yeah, I would.
>> No, I never
>> because I want you to chat me, right?
Like I don't want to show you my
Instagram. we're going to see everything
and like I'd rather like like let's
banter like let's chat are you funny?
Are you going to ask me good questions?
Are you going to be a conversational
narcissist? And then ask me at dinner if
it's going well over text or over over
the phone.
>> So you think less context results in
better conversation? So just having
their WhatsApp or their iMessage is
going to result in more interesting
conversations than me knowing that you
like hiking and puppies and me being
able to be like, "Have you got a
Labradoodle, too?" Oh my god, my
Labradoodle is just given birth to a
couple of triplets. Yes. And less
performative context. Like our social
feeds are not 100% real. So it's not
like you were listening to me talk about
something. It's a perform it's a curated
highlight reel of my life. So you feel
like you know me. Like people who follow
me on Instagram like they might feel
like they know me, but my life is quite
different than my Instagram in the sense
of I show a very small piece of what I
do. Same right with you, right? And so I
know I'm not single, but if I was single
and someone asked for my my Instagram,
even as a not like public figure, I
would have no casual level one banter
with them that is critical, socially
critical for me to understand their
basics. And so when we skip level one,
we do damage to our potential connection
later. We create more awkwardness and
more friction for ourselves. Okay?
>> So my challenge for single people is
stop asking for handles and ask for
numbers.
>> Are people going to get mad at me?
Well, a lot of them are meeting via
dating apps now.
>> For sure. And that I think that's okay,
right? You know, a dating app is much
more limited than an endless feed.
>> It's like I don't know how many photos
are on dating apps these days, but still
like that's like the most performative.
It's like look at me at the gym. Look at
this car that I bought. Look at
>> But it's not forever. Like you can't go
back to someone's Instagram since they
were in high school, right? Like it's,
you know, it's six images or 10 images.
You have these pre-subscribed questions.
Like I'm actually okay with I love
dating apps. I think that actually they
can really connect people very quickly.
But you don't know everything about you.
You don't feel like you know everything
about me.
>> I feel like people on dating apps hate
dating apps.
>> Of course. Of course. But how else are
we going to meet people if we have our
AirPods in all the time? You're not
going to meet people if you're at the
gym. We talked about this last time. If
you have your AirPods in at the gym and
someone wants to hit on you, you're not
going to hear it. So, we have to use
dating apps. I think they're the only
way that we'll be able to connect. So, I
I'm actually I'm pro dating app. Of
course, I would love for people to
approach in person, but I'm not pro not
talking first. And I think if someone
asks for your handle, you're fair to say
it's just for my friends and family.
Let's try to get there.
>> Okay, I concede.
>> No, I think you it makes sense. It
doesn't make sense. It's hard to repeat.
>> Okay, so this is a wonderful level, but
it's reserved for your most important
people. I think a mistake that people
make is they are afraid of going too
deep too quickly and they're afraid of
going deep deep in conversation because
it feels scary to be vulnerable.
>> And are they right? They are right.
>> Okay.
>> If we go too deep too quickly,
especially at work, and I wrote this
book with work in mind, people are going
to think you're weird.
>> If we share too much too quickly, it's
going to be weird. And there is such a
thing as vulnerability regret.
Vulnerability regret is you shared
something too vulnerable and it wasn't a
safe space or it wasn't received well.
And the heartache that you get from that
is soul crushing. Right? If you share
something too or you ask something to
deep too quickly, you're like, why did I
do it's painful. Has that ever happened?
Does that happen to you or No, you don't
share.
>> Uh, no. I I've walked away from
situations and thought actually maybe
that wasn't the appropriate situation to
share that. But I've also been in
situations. I I immediately thought of a
meeting I had two weeks ago where I was
interviewing someone and the first 25
minutes of the interview they shared
some really really personal things about
their very early childhood that I um
>> I almost had to adjust myself
>> to you know I thought I was going into
an interview
>> Yeah.
>> to like meet them and ask them about
work stuff but I I almost felt myself
pivoting away being like oh my gosh I
have to be
>> more of a a counselor or something.
>> Yeah. And so I think that we actually
have to gate level three, right? I think
we actually have to gate and and it's
been a little confusing culturally
because I think that we are loving
vulnerability and that that's really
good and vulnerability and authenticity.
There's a very fine line there. Like
being authentic is great, but being too
vulnerable too quickly is very awkward
and sometimes not safe. So I really
share when we talk about level three, I
want you to reserve it for your most
important people. Okay? So level three
is called your self-narrative. Your
self-narrative is the story you tell
yourself about yourself. It is how you
make sense of your journey and purpose
in life. And the story you tell yourself
about yourself is self-creating.
Meaning, if you have a narrative of
hardship and being unlucky, you are
probably going to see more hardship and
create more bad luck for yourself. And
they've proven that this there's
actually two types of selfnarratives.
There's a contamination narrative and a
redemption narrative. People with a
redemption narrative, they have a frame
around the facts of their life of no
matter what they do, no matter what
comes their way, they're going to
overcome with hard work and grit and
resilience, they can overcome anything.
And what's interesting about this in our
research is this narrative, it holds
across their life. Yes, they're they're
facts of their life, but their work,
their love, their parenting, they repeat
that same redemption narrative in
everything they do. The other kind of
narrative is a contamination narrative.
People with a contamination narrative,
they feel that all the hardship and all
the challenge and the struggle has
happened to them and they can't make it
through. They can't overcome. That no
matter how hard they've worked, their
grit, their strength, their resilience,
they're a victim of circumstance. they
typically feel very unlucky and very out
of control. And when you have that kind
of narrative, it's less about the facts
of your life and more about the frames
of your life, how you're seeing those
facts. When you have a contamination
narrative or you're in a relationship
with someone with a with a contamination
narrative, the only way that I think we
can change that, cuz our narratives are
changeable. These are not fixed
personality traits, is via conversation.
So, my secret hope with with level three
conversation is when you're in a safe
relationship, when you can truly share
who you are, when you feel understood,
you can maybe rewrite your narrative.
You can maybe flip from a contamination
narrative, the frame of how you've seen
your facts into redemption. And that is
my secret goal here.
>> So, how do we do that?
>> Okay, the first thing is beginning to
uncover what your narrative is and what
someone else's narrative is. So the
first thing we have to understand is how
our brain works. Our brains are
storytellers. Our that's why we love
story. And level one, it was kind of a
warm-up. Like when we're telling story
about our passions and our side hustles,
we're also telling a story about
ourselves all the time.
>> Mhm.
>> And so we've told a story about
ourselves. And there are what I call
narrative hints. In conversation, people
will leak the kind of narrative that
they have. So they might say, "Oh,
everyone always zigs and I zag. Gosh,
everything bad always happens to me."
Oh, of course, of course. Yet another
thing. If people have superlatives,
always, never, they tend to be more of a
contamination person. People who are in
that contamination narrative space, they
tend to see things as very black and
white. They tend to see things as
permanent versus redemption people tend
to leak positive hints and they feel
very lucky. They say, "Oh, good things
always happen to me." Or, "There's
always a silver lining. Oh, yeah. You
know, just my luck. I got it." Right?
They're saying things about how it's
happening. They're leaking their
narratives.
>> Who ends up being more successful,
happy, and healthy?
>> Absolutely. People with redemptive
redemptive narratives. They have found
that people with redemption narratives,
they live longer. They have better
immune systems. They have better
connections. They feel happier. And that
is because they feel they can handle
whatever is thrown at them. They have a
great internal locus of control. They
feel that no matter what comes at them,
they can handle it. And the good news is
this is learnable, right? If we begin to
talk about our narratives with our
children, with our partners, we can
begin to teach them actually you have
growth here. You have agency over your
narrative.
>> This internal locus of control thing is
something that I learned about when I
was probably 16 or 17 in psychology
class.
>> Yeah.
>> And what does it mean? And what what
does the study say about the importance
of it?
>> So an internal locus of control means
that you feel that you're in control.
You have agency over your decisions,
over what happens to you, that things
can happen to you in your life, but you
can decide how you interact with them.
You can decide how you behave. People
with an external locus of control get
their worth from outside sources. They
feel validated when someone else tells
them they look good. They feel good when
someone else tells them they're doing
good. They're looking for external ways
to feel better. They look more at like
for example vanity metrics, their likes
or their follows, how many friends they
have, how often they're invited, are
they getting compliments?
>> I almost the analogy I was thinking of
then is it's almost like you either
think you're a bird or you think you're
on a roller coaster.
>> Tell me more.
>> You know, a roller coaster has a fixed
track
>> really irrespective of what you do. It's
going to go up, down, left, right, spin,
and you're just holding on and going
with it. Whereas a bird feels like it
has the agency to go go anywhere. No
rail. Yeah. M.
>> And some people I think do think that
they're on a roller coaster.
>> Yeah.
>> On a track.
>> I mean, look, I don't want to get too
deep, but if we were in a normal
conversation, I would ask you about
fate. You know, I think there's
questions that can we begin to uncover
someone's level three. Do you believe in
luck? Do you believe you're lucky? Do
you believe in fate? I think if you
believe in fate, you're more likely to
believe that you're on a roller coaster.
that you're on a ride that is
predetermined and now it's up and then
it's going to go down and they're going
to have a loop. So, I wonder I don't
know if someone has a high belief in
faith or predetermined fate if they
would feel an external locus of control
and maybe that wouldn't be as good for
their mental health. I wonder
>> I've done almost 700 interviews with
some of the most interesting people in
the world and one of the things you
learn which is unexpected is that
vulnerability is the doorway to
connection. And after sitting here for 2
three hours with a guest, I feel a deep
sense of connection to them. And as they
leave, what I get them to do is to write
a question in the diary of a CEO. We've
taken all of the questions from the
diary of a CEO. We have put the question
here on this card with the name of the
person that wrote it. So you can sit at
home as I do with my fiance and my
colleagues at work and other people in
my life. Whenever we get a minute, we
play the diio conversation cards. And it
is incredible what happens. These are
great if you're in a romantic
relationship and you want to connect
your partner more. These are also great
if you're in a team and you want to bond
your team together. And I have to say
they're also great for families that
want to learn more about each other and
that need a good excuse to spend some
time in a digital world in the analog
environment connecting human to human.
It is remarkable what the right question
at the right time can do. Go to the
diary.com
and you can get these conversation cards
right now.
>> So, going back to this idea of these
contaminators.
>> So, we're listening for narrative hints
and we can ask questions like are you
lucky? By the way, if you ask this
question, it's it's a it's a sneaker
because it sounds so casual when you ask
are you lucky, but their answer really
matters. Either there's three answers
for are you lucky. One, oh yes. Yes, I
feel lucky. When I asked you this last
time, you said yes.
>> Yeah. I think I I can't look at I feel
like I have so much privilege in my life
that I feel like I have I am lucky.
>> Yes. Yes. I feel the same. I'm just I'm
so grateful, right, that I get to have
this super unique career. So I feel
lucky. You feel lucky. So yes, if
someone says yes right away, that tells
you a lot about them.
>> That means they probably have a high
amount of gratitude. They probably have
a high amount of control or agency. and
they also have confidence because it's
the the quickness the speed of their
answer matters here then there are
people who are going to go
what no I I don't think I'm lucky now
this is a really important thing to know
about them and I I don't think you
should try to change it right like I
think that that's a version of toxic
positivity telling someone oh but you're
so lucky you know think of all the
things that you should be grateful for
usually that actually makes someone dig
in it makes them feel very misunderstood
you're the best thing you can do if
someone says they don't feel lucky is to
understand it. Why? What are the forces?
When did that happen? Did you ever feel
lucky before? Sometimes people can flip
from lucky to unlucky with a very bad
circumstance. And it is crucial that you
understand that before you judge it. So
curiosity gets engaged. If someone says
they're unlucky, I think that's an
opportunity to really reach out and meet
someone where they're at because in that
moment they might.
>> Are you going to disagree with me?
>> No, no, no. I was just thinking about
how wonderful of a question that is for
when you first meet someone in in an
interview or a first date. I was like
maybe I should ask people in an
interview.
>> Do you think you're lucky?
>> You should
>> cuz what what is that revealing if they
say yes? It's revealing
>> multitudes, right? Their gratitude,
their perspective on life, their
internal locus of control.
>> You're an optimist
>> often. Not always, but often sometimes
it can be realists.
>> Okay?
>> Right? Like I am objectively lucky
because I have all these things that can
be realist. But man, you're going to
learn a lot. You're the whole point of
level three is predicting behavior. If
you know their luck, you're going to be
able to predict a lot of how they are in
a relationship, how they are as a
friend, how they are going to be at
work,
>> right? Fate, I think, is an interesting
one to ask someone. And then there's
other questions that seem silly but
actually have tremendous meaning. And
level three is all about meaning. Okay,
so the third answer for lucky thank you
is that person who is afraid to answer.
And I have asked this question of
thousands of people and you get this
bucket of um well
kind of. Now this is very interesting
because this tells you they're probably
not that introspective. So one of two
things they actually don't know. They
they literally have not ever thought
about it and they will say to you I've
never thought about and they're
literally sitting in front of you
reanalyzing their entire life trying to
answer this question for you. They've
never considered it. So that's also
helpful. That's helpful. You know, if
you're in a relationship and someone's
not that introspective, that's good to
know. Not good or bad, just good to
know, especially if you value that. Like
introspection is one of my core values.
So, you know, that might might not be
bode well for me. Or second, they don't
feel safe with you yet. It can be a hint
that you went too too fast. If someone
says I kind of or I'm not sure, you
might have jumped to level three too
quickly and they are not ready to share
or they are embarrassed about something.
They have shame or they have something
in their past that they feel is very
unlucky but they don't feel ready to
share it.
>> Have they done studies on this this
particular question?
>> I think only we have.
>> Only you have.
>> Richard Wisman has done a lot of
research on luck specifically and he he
there's like a luck test you can give
someone. We did this in our in our lab.
So, it's a official luck test to see how
lucky you think you are. It's like a 10
question diagnostic and it asks all
these different variations of that
question. So, it is academically
studied. But I don't think what's
studied, at least not yet, is how your
answer is going to dictate your life.
Like I would love to know maybe future
research in our lab is if you consider
yourself very lucky, do you make more
money?
>> Do you make less money? Is there any
income? Are you older? Are you younger?
Are you a child of privilege or not? So,
I I think it's coming. I mean, I think
that's where this excitement kind of
comes from. At least it gets me excited
as a as a behavior researcher.
>> I I was just looking at that study by
Dr. Richard Wisman. He discovered that
people who answer yes, I am lucky
actually generate their own good fortune
by acting very acting in very specific
ways. They have lower anxiety. They have
higher extraversion. They tend to talk
talk to lots of people and make lots of
friendships and relationships. High
openness to experience, relentless
optimism.
That's very very interesting.
>> I I have considered I've really
considered this doing a luck workshop
where all I do in the workshop is help
you harvest your own feelings of luck.
It is so
healing. It is so fulfilling to feel
lucky to wake up in the day and feel
lucky. It's better than gratitude,
right? Gratitude is sort of shaming in
its own way. I'm like kind of
anti-gratitude, but feeling like you're
really really lucky is is so empowering.
And so I've thought about creating luck
labs, like a little luck workshop where
you can come and we're going to we're
going to convince you that you're lucky
because it's that good of an investment
in your in your feelings of happiness.
>> I I would like to ask the audience, I'm
just super interested. I would like to
ask all the uh people listening now if
they do you guys feel lucky and I would
like honest answers in the comment
section. And don't I know you just heard
us say that lucky people are going to
have uh have better lives. Just be
completely honest just for pure research
purposes. And do you know what? I know
people that don't feel lucky are going
to be honest because
>> they're going to be honest and they're
going to tell you exactly why. And
they're going to get really mad at us
because they're going to say that
something really bad happened to them
and how dare we tell them that luck is
good.
>> That's what's going to happen cuz I've
I've heard them do it.
>> Can you get mad at Vanessa and not me?
I'm
>> No, get mad at him.
>> No, it's fine. You can get mad at me.
It's fine.
>> I have no shell. But but but this is why
I'm asking because I want to I want to
I'm coming from one perspective from one
experience that I've had in my life and
I feel like I am grateful and I've been
very privileged. So I would like to
understand why other people do not feel
lucky in their lives and you know I I
guess it would also be surprising to
hear that some people have been through
objectively horrific things but they
some of them might still feel lucky. So
that would be interesting as well. So
I'll be reading the comments
>> and that is also fact versus frame.
>> Okay.
>> Right. So the way that we begin to
rewrite our story and I believe so much
in self- authorship, right? Yes, there's
a story you tell yourself about
yourself, but you also are the author of
your own life, right? You're the author
of your own narrative. The way that we
begin to take up the pen, like become
the author of our own life, is we ask
ourselves questions about why do I have
that idea? What is the evidence for that
idea? The facts might be there, but our
frame of them is different. So, for
example, take a breakup. And I can
almost always find out someone's
contamination or redemption narrative if
I ask them about a breakup. People with
contamination narratives will almost
always say, "The breakup nearly
destroyed me." The I don't trust men
anymore. I don't trust women anymore.
You know, it just it it just took from
me. I feel like a shell of myself. And
it stays that way. Everyone has a period
of a bad breakup time, but they never
get through that. That they feel like
that that breakup fundamentally changed
them for the worse. Whereas someone with
a a positive or a redemption narrative,
even if it was a horrific breakup,
they'll say, "I will never do that
again." That made me stronger. It was
horrible. It was one of the worst times
of my life, but I know now who not to
choose, and I know who to choose. It
made me feel stronger. It's that
anti-fragile piece.
>> Would you give someone a second date if
on the first date they turned to you and
when you asked them the question, "Are
you a lucky person?" They went,
"Absolutely not." I probably wouldn't.
You are going to be so mad.
>> You are so cooked. They are going to get
you. Get it, guys.
>> You were so single.
>> You were so cooked.
>> It's a hypothetical.
>> It was a trap. That's what it was.
>> You're so mean. You're like, "Look,
throwing us into the fire." Well, don't
worry. I got a wine bottle coming. So,
>> no. I I was thinking I was thinking
>> No. Would you Gosh, I'm going to ask you
now. If someone if I was on a first date
and I said, "Are you a lucky person?"
and they said to me,
>> "Absolutely
not."
>> Okay, I'd be curious.
>> Sure, of course.
>> And I would want to hear what they
>> would leave. I wouldn't leave the date.
>> But if they were then just like
extremely pessimistic, I would probably
arrive at this assumption that this is
probably not going to be a match cuz
that's not my inclination. And it
doesn't it takes too much energy out of
me. And that is also because I think
this is beautiful bridge to the next
concept. Once you begin to uncover these
narrative hints, okay, you're talking
about luck, you're talking about
redemption or contamination narrative. I
believe and this is more art than
science that there are five archetypes
of these stories. So I have harvested
hundreds, I wouldn't say thousands,
hundreds of narratives. It's actually
quite hard to ask someone what is your
self-narrative? It's very hard question,
but there are questions that we can
begin to talk about that that do harvest
it. I notice patterns. There are the
same narratives over and over again, and
there about five of them. I think that
we share an archetype. I think we do.
Now, maybe I'm flattering myself. So,
the first archetype is the ambitious
hero. And I think this is us, but you'll
tell me. So, the ambitious hero um has
had challenges and obstacles, but they
feel that their grit and resilience have
they've been able to overcome. They
struggle because they are never
satisfied.
>> And what is an archetype? Like what is
>> I got excited. Yes. So this is not like
a personality type. It's not like my
brig or anyagram. Those are quite like
stable. This is a fluid archetype of how
you're seeing your story in this moment.
For example, I might ask you if if you
had to write a memoir, what would the
title of your memoir be?
>> And this is going to impact how I have
conversations with people.
>> This is going to impact how you have
conversations with people. how you
behave interpersonally, so how you act
at work. Like an ambitious hero is going
to act very, very differently at work
than a contented pragnatist.
>> And is it going to impact who I'm
attracted to platonically and
romantically?
>> Absolutely. It dictates your
relationship patterns.
>> Okay.
>> Right. Your conversational patterns, how
you converse, how you bond, how you
connect, and more importantly, since I'm
so interested in work conversations, how
you work, how you view effectiveness,
how you view efficiency. My founders,
right, ambitious hero founders are going
to have the same struggles over and over
again. They're going to be very
different than the contender pragmatist
founder.
>> So the ambitious hero, what's their sort
of internal monologue?
>> Their internal monologue is I got this.
I can do this. Hustle, hustle more,
>> more, bigger, more, bigger, bigger,
more. I can do that better. I can do
that bigger. Right. It's like we I get,
you know, shiny object syndrome is like
one of the nicer ways to talk about
ambitious heroes. You know, shiny object
syndrome.
>> No.
>> It's like a founder who won't stop
trying new initiatives and keeps
throwing new ideas on the table when
they haven't finished their first one.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Do you have that?
>> Well, yes, but I have put uh systems in
place.
>> Ah, yeah.
>> To make sure that it doesn't uh sink the
company as Jeff Basil said. Jeff Basil
said, "I've got enough ideas to sync the
company and he has to learn to release
them at a cadence that the company can
tolerate." So, that's
>> love it. And that's beautiful cuz that's
self-nowledge and everything that we're
talking about is self-nowledge, right?
If you're able to talk this through, you
have self-nowledge to go to your team.
When I come to you with a new idea next
week, say no.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
>> Don't let me do that. It's too much.
Right? So in behaviorally if you are the
ambitious hero you know you dream big
you can burn out because you dream so
big. We tend like I tend to like work
almost regulates me. Like when I'm
working I'm like I'm being so
productive. We are helping people. Help
more people. Help all the people right
like it's like it's too much. And so we
can we can burn out from a productivity
perspective. We have shiny object
syndrome and in conversation in
relationships. People sometimes don't
always understand our drive. Like we're
so driven. We get accused of hustle
culture a lot. We can burn other people
out by trying to bring them with us on
how fast we want to work, how long we
want to work. You know, those are not
necessarily bad things, but they're
traits. They're behavioral traits. Okay.
And by the way, so this is um number
one, the ambitious hero. Um one way that
you can kind of sus these out is asking
the question, what character are you
most like? What book, movie, or TV
character are you most like? not look
like life choices, personality, core
values.
>> And I said pursuit of happiness, which
is Yeah.
>> Yeah. Which is
>> ambitious hero.
>> Yeah. But why did you choose that
character?
>> Because he he the reason why I chose the
character was because when I was 18, 19
years old and I was literally
shoplifting food to feed myself. I
watched that movie
>> randomly and I was in bed the day that
day and it really made me feel like
>> like the journey I was on, you know,
when he was in the he was in the like
disabled toilet with his kid.
>> The the toilet scene.
>> Yeah.
>> And I remember like my life in shades
felt a little bit like that at the
moment. Just, you know, kind of
>> doing things to feed myself that would,
you know, and keep the lights on and
swerving these landlords cuz my my rent
was 5 months late and all the kind of
games I played to try and just survive.
And then he went on to be successful. So
it was it gave me a lot of hope. So and
he's also black.
>> Mhm. So it was really important in that
interaction that I didn't assume about
that character. I asked you why and then
you told me a story about what you saw
and when you saw it. A really critical
part of this exercise is that you asked
someone about the character and then you
say why. What traits? Because the traits
that they say next are going to tell you
every single thing about that person.
For example, I if I ask someone, you
know, what what person are you most
like? And they say, "Mother Teresa." I
say, "Oh, you know, why?" You know, I
might not agree with them. Like, maybe I
don't see that, but whatever they say
next is going to tell me a lot about how
they view themselves, whether it's true
or not.
>> And this is the hardest part about level
three, and it's the most inconvenient
part of level three. You probably won't
agree.
>> Okay?
>> There's a lot of times where people in
my life have told me self narratives,
and I'm like, "What?
>> What's yours? What character are you
most like and why?
>> Okay, so I relate most with Claire Duny
from Modern Family, especially in her
entrepreneurial years. Most people would
be surprised that actually identify
first as a mother, not an entrepreneur.
Most of my day is with my kids. Uh I'm a
little awkward. I'm very neurotic. Um
and so I resonate most with her. And
that um ambitious working mom is sort of
what I'm constantly struggling with.
Constantly. Yeah, especially as an
ambitious hero because I want to do both
perfectly and I I cannot. Yeah. So, by
the way, if you're having trouble with
this question, this is the one way that
I think AI can help. You know, I have I
have my own, you know, relationship with
AI. But, um, AI can be a great
brainstorm partner. It can be a great
conversational practice partner. It can
be a great role playinging partner. And
this is actually one way that I like it.
So, if you're not sure, if you're like,
Vanessa, I don't know. I don't know what
character I am. Go to AI and ask this.
What book, movie, or TV character is
most like me in the way that I treat
you? Especially if you have a
relationship with your AI. I am fill in
the blank. So for me, it was mom,
entrepreneur, neurotic.
My personality is how describe a person.
My core values are
what character is most similar to me.
And it will pull a bunch of characters
that are those traits. So this is the
one way that it can help you some
sometimes brainstorm.
>> Okay. The ambitious hero, right? We
started with that.
>> Yeah.
>> Archetype number one. The second one is
called the content. I called it the
contented pragmatist. Again, these are a
little more art than science. The
contented pragmatist is somebody who
likes it as it is. They are quite
content, very happy with where things
are. They don't really need to change it
if it's not broken. They are not very
ambitious cuz they're very grounded in
where they are. They love habit and
ritual and tradition in conversation
relationally. They struggle when people
push them to try harder or do more
because they're like, "I'm good. Life is
good. Why would we change things?" I
have two very specific people in my life
who are very annoyed by me as the
ambitious hero because I have a new goal
every month and I'm constantly like
they're like I love smoothies or they
make great granola and I'm like you
should bottle it up and sell it at
farmers markets and they're like but why
and I'm like but why not right so
relationally um they're often seen as
unambitious but actually they're just
quite content.
>> Mhm. Interesting.
>> Do you know someone like that?
>> I do. I was just thinking also about
just business generally and how when
you're hiring teams or even in
relationships you can you can get a
contented pragmatist holding back an
ambitious hero and I've often had
friends come to me and say like I've got
this big startup idea that I want to
launch but my girlfriend or my husband
is
>> yeah telling me to like be realistic and
>> and they tend to be more a little bit a
little bit more fear-based. It's not
that they're negative but they they are
so contented that they're very very
hyper practical. I also think on a team
it is important to know what role will
be best served by this ambitious roles,
growth roles, rain maker roles, leaders
who are in a industry of change. Some
like fiduciary, you know, I do a lot of
finance conferences and I work with a
lot of folks in banking. Sometimes
ambitious heroes can really be crushed
in those roles because there isn't a lot
of fastmoving growth in those companies.
A contented pregnant can do really well
in a very stable traditional industry
with a lot of regulation because they
are very happy to live in that
regulation. You might want someone
might. I say might because it really
depends on your company, but in a
corporate culture, you know, you might
want a contented pragmatist running your
books.
>> Mhm.
>> They're quite conservative. They're not
going to make a big leap here, right?
And they're also they're like, "Let's
keep it as it is. Let's know what we're
doing. Don't don't break don't change if
it's not broken." Right? So you have to
think about your roles in a hiring
manager. It depends on how your what
your company is like.
>> And in terms of conversation tips,
>> are there different tips for different
>> archetypes? An ambitious hero, they are
going to get so much dopamine talking
about goals, talking about new, talking
about progress. They are juiced by
progress and they want to hear about
progress too. So not only are they
wanting to like, you know, I when
someone asks me how are you? It takes
everything in me to not share my
metrics. Like I know that's not socially
acceptable. So I have to be like I am
doing great. The business is exploding
and then I just stop, right? Because it
would be weird if I was like we have
305% growth on Instagram, you know? Like
right cuz we love ambition. I also love
ambition in others. My gosh. Like I when
I hear about my friend's side hustle
that's growing like I'm that's all my
text, all my check-in texts. I'm just
thinking about you is how's the biz?
How's the traffic? How are the book
sales? How are the movie sales? Like I
want to hear about growth. A canop
pragmatist, they want to talk about
ritual. They want to talk about what
works. They want to savor life life's
pleasures. They're very good at
savoring. And by the way, this can be a
wonderful relationship sometimes.
Because sometimes the contented
pragmatist reminds the ambitious hero.
Enjoy it.
>> Enjoy it. You've worked so hard. Like
just take in the view for a moment. And
so they love gratitude. They love habit,
ritual, routine. Um they love to be
honored for what works. They're the ones
who will make a beautiful Thanksgiving
dinner and they want to have that
three-hour dinner and savor it and not
talk about next year and not talk about
goals and just savor this moment and
talk about what they did last year and
the year before that. A little bit
different. Okay. Okay. This is I think
the most important one to talk about
actually. I think it's the least
understood of all the archetypes which
is the selfless helper. Okay. This is
such a clear narrative. I almost always
can predict it within the first few
minutes of conversation and that is
because selfless helpers their entire
story is about giving. Their entire
reason for being is being of service.
They almost always pick careers that are
of service. They almost always pick
careers teachers, coaches, trainers,
nurses, doctors. And that is because
they are so ingrained that to have worth
is to help.
And often times where they can sometimes
get into trouble is they don't feel
worthy if they are not helping. And so
they help so much that there's nothing
left. They have compassion burnout or
compassion fatigue because they are
giving and giving and giving and giving.
They cannot say no. In a relationship
they are beautiful to be in a
relationship with because they are
givers, right? They are they are
nurturers. They are giving. They're
they're you know a lot of parents can
flip into self-el helpers once they
become a parent. I've seen this happen
with both moms and dads. The moment they
have a baby they flip into selfless
helper cuz all of a sudden their purpose
is there is to take care of this little
person. The problem is that they h they
they have a really hard time saying no.
>> They're people pleasers.
>> Yeah. They have they struggle with
boundaries. They say yes to too much and
they put themselves last. Can be both
good and bad in a relationship. And so
if you're in a relationship with them,
sometimes half of it is just letting
them stand up to protect themselves to
not give too much. And I mentioned this
very briefly earlier, but I've had many
friends who are selfless help helpers
and they attract takers,
right? They attract high conflict
people. You know what I mean by high
conflict?
>> Oh, okay. Yeah.
>> A high conflict person is Bill Eddie's
work. He estimates that 10% of the
population is a high conflict person.
A high conflict person is someone who
thrives with drama. They create
difficulty in their relationships. They
almost like to have difficult
conversations. They thrive with that
kind of drama. They see an absolutes. So
they often speak in like black or white.
Um they see no nuance. They weaponize
emotions.
these days they often sometimes use
psychology
to their advantage by taking advantage
of people and the the worst high
conflict people and this is where I've
noticed it in my work when I was
listening and reading Billi's work I was
like
they actually are enablers they can get
other people to do their dirty work for
them so they can sometimes put a seed in
a selfless helper's ear and the selfless
helper will go how dare they and they'll
go fight for you and so sometimes
selfless helper ers, they are roped into
things that are not necessarily what
they should be doing because they are
standing up for the person they care
about.
>> And so if you're dealing with a selfless
helper in terms of conversation,
>> yes, sometimes they even think talking
about themselves is taking.
>> Okay.
>> So you might sometimes in conversation
like you're asking them a question and
they're like, "Oh no, no, enough about
me."
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
>> Oh, let's talk about you. Oh, I want to
help you. How can I help you? It's so
funny like my friends who are selfless
helpers, I cannot get them to tell me
what I can help them with cuz all they
want to do is check in on me and I'm
like, "No, no, I really do want to hear
about you." So sometimes they won't take
the ball cuz they're worried it's
selfish. And so sometimes getting them
to open up can be hard cuz they feel
like their needs are not important, but
their needs are very important. Like
they're such beautiful people. So I
think in conversation, the greatest gift
we can give a selfless helper is letting
them know that you're understood. I
value you. And getting to know you is
not taking from me. It's giving to me. I
have to tell my friends, it makes me
feel good to help you. It makes me feel
good to hear about what's going on for
you. You're actually giving to me by
telling me about yourself, not taking
from me. So, we have to gift to them. I
think we have to be extremely
conversationally generous with them.
>> Mhm.
>> Do you know Do you know anyone?
>> Yes, I do.
>> Oh, lovely.
>> Yeah. And it all it all tracks with
everything you said. So,
>> and and in corporate like right all
these apply to work. These are great if
you have a not always but often managers
can do great things as selfless helpers
because they are so attuned to others
but they are very good at bringing out
performance. Not always but I've seen
really really amazing managers who they
know the ROI they know metrics like
they're following their KPIs but they're
so good at finding how does this person
need to be helped? How could this person
be their best selves? Oh that person has
a great expert power. They're so good at
that that they bring up performance in
everyone,
>> but they might avoid the difficult
conversation.
These people tend to be a little bit
conflict avoidant.
>> They can be conflict avoidant, but
they're very good at framing everything
as we're in this together.
So yes, they can be conflict avoidant,
but the really good managers who are
excellent conversationalists, they are
able to frame bad news and hard feedback
as I want to help you. Mhm.
>> The reason I'm giving you this feedback
is cuz I so want you to succeed. And the
person on the receiving end goes, "I
trust you. I know that." Okay.
>> So, yes, if if they're not excellent
conversationalist, it's true. They they
can be avoidant. But if they learn how
to be assertive, and by the way,
learning, you know, you can be
assertive, then they are uh tremendous
in conversation because they're people
trust them because they come from a good
place. Okay. The creative disruptor.
So, the creative disruptor. This is my
most challenging archetype. So, I'm
really going to try to talk about this
archetype in a positive way. Creative
disruptors do not like rules. Their
entire ethos is
breaking things. They want to disrupt.
They want to go anti-norm. They want to
be countercultural. They're the ones who
are like, I don't need a blueprint.
And they them and me in conversation is
is not always the best. There are
probably the ones in the com comments
who are like, "Well, this doesn't apply
to me because of all these reasons cuz
they want to push. They want to
challenge." And this is wonderful
because they often are the really
creative thinkers, right? They often are
the ones who are thinking outside the
box the most. They're often the ones who
are willing to challenge the way
something has always been done. The
problem is is sometimes that can rub
people the wrong way. And sometimes
these folks can thrive over conflict in
the way of it's just it's fun for them.
like it's fun to negotiate, it's fun to
push a litigators, my litigators who are
watching, I find that my my litigators
tend to fall into this into this
category
>> or very disruptive entrepreneurs.
>> I I know there's ones on this show, I've
listened to the interviews with them and
I go, "Oh, that's a creative disruptor."
It's someone who
>> they're not only building something, but
they're not quite an ambitious hero
because they want to break things. Like,
they want to build it and break it. They
want to reinvent the entire system, and
they're doing it. You know, Edward
Snowden is is one of the examples I give
in the book of like he he wanted to
change something and also he he wanted
to like stick it to the man like he
wanted to break the system that he was
in.
>> Mhm. H okay.
>> Do you struggle with this? Do you like
this interviews? They they're very
interesting.
>> They're really good in interviews. I
actually interviewed someone the other
day that was like that.
>> So interesting
>> because they have a contrarian view by
nature. Everything they say is like
deeply contrarian. Mhm.
>> But I think I think having people like
that that are challenging around their
like default is challenge is quite is
quite useful.
>> Yes.
>> It helps me be sort of refine my my my
own points of view
>> and they live as dream killers.
>> Yeah.
>> Right.
It can be amazing but it can be
exhausting. So in conversation it just
it's good to go in prepared to know ah I
need this. I want to get stronger. I
want to be anti-fragile. They'll break
for you to make you stronger or like I'm
a delicate flower right now. I cannot do
the dream killing. I'm exhausted by it.
It's a fine line between that and like
pessimism.
>> Not always, but a sometimes they are
pessimistic. Not always. We have a
creative disruptor friend who
I did an Instagram post about this and I
said, you know, I have a friend who
always says I hate everything. Texts. I
hate everything. I hate everything. And
he Instagram knew it was him and served
him the video and he texted me. He's
like, is this me? And I was like, yes.
>> Instagram knew it was him.
>> Instagram. How dare you? Okay, the last
one is one we've actually already
touched on, which is the unlucky
struggler. So, this is someone with a
contamination narrative. And they feel
that no matter what they've done, they
are unlucky. They are struggling. They
often feel stuck. They often feel
misunderstood. They often feel
overlooked.
And the problem with unlucky strugglers,
the the the character you want to think
of is like George Castanza from
Seinfeld, right? Like, h everything is
bad for me. They can be hilarious, but
they are tortured.
They are tortured. And in conversation,
it's really hard for ambitious heroes to
not try to convince them that they're
not unlucky. Like my biggest challenge
with my unlucky strugglers in my life is
to not try to flip them into something
that they're not or try to convince them
that they're actually lucky.
They also in conversation can be very
funny. Like they can make fun of
themselves. They're so humble. their low
self-esteem. Some of the best comedians
are unlucky strugglers. And so they're
beautiful to be around, but sometimes
you wish that they had more confidence
in the confidence you see in them, they
had it, too.
>> If you're in a conversation with one of
these people that um you don't gel with,
is there a I mean, you talk about it a
little bit in the book, but what are the
ways to get out of a bad conversation
without offending people?
>> Oh my goodness. Uh it's called a
graceful exit. So there's a behavior
concept the peak end effect that we
remember the first few minutes of a
conversation and the last few minutes of
conversation but we tend to focus a lot
on the first impression
>> peak end
>> like like so when you're remembering
something you remember the peak of a
conversation and the end of the
conversation okay yeah we also of course
the first impressions are incredibly
important as well we tend to overindex
on the first impression so we think a
lot about our first few minutes our
opening line maybe the highlight but we
don't really think about the end but
actually that's what we leave people
with so I I have a formula you know I
love a formula
This calms my anxiety when I'm in a
conversation and it's time to go, right?
Either either we're not feeling it, like
we're not words we're just not clicking
or like we got to go. One, first is a
future Q. So, it's future Q plus
compliment or action. So, a future Q is
when you ask about or mention something
coming in the future. The reason for
this is it's a subtle way to shift the
brain into not here, later.
>> Okay, so let's role play.
>> Yeah, let's do it.
>> We're at a we're at a party. We're
having some wine and things get a little
bit awkward. We ran out of things to say
to each other.
>> Do you have any fun plans coming up this
weekend? Do you have anything fun?
>> Uh, this is wine bar across town that
I'm really into, so I'm probably just
going to go there, I think, with some
friends.
>> Oh my gosh. Well, I hope it's lovely.
Make sure to try um I love a Chardonnay.
I don't know if you like white wine. Be
sure to try it. Future cue. So, I I just
asked you about a future and I'm going
to wish you well on it, which already
gets us into future mode. And then I'm
going to end on a compliment or an
action. It was so lovely talking to you.
I hope you have a great time with that
wine bar. I'm going to go get some more
coffee. Have you got any fun plans
coming up?
>> I have so many fun plans coming up. My
daughter's just started school and so
we're having a celebratory Labor Day
weekend this weekend.
>> What do you love to talk about? That's
the
>> That's a signature question.
>> What have you always wanted to learn?
See, I'm What if they just go straight
back in though? Cuz that's happened to
me before where I've tried to
>> Okay, this is where the the action and
the compliment that that second piece.
So, the future cue is we mentioned
future and you're right. They might they
might keep going with it. The action and
compliment is really important. So
wrapping up the conversation sounds like
it's been so wonderful talking to you.
And I'm using an exit voice. Do you hear
the exit voice? Right. Our tone really
matters here. So it's been so wonderful
talking to you. I I hope that that goes
great this weekend. Or be sure to
connect with me on LinkedIn. I I I was
so happy we were able to trade numbers.
So you're mentioning the action that's
going to come later. And it's using that
closing voice and then the action. I'm
going to go grab more coffee. I'm going
to go say hi to the host. I'm going to
run to the ladies room. I'm going to let
head home. Right? like then they cannot
right like you've ended it then and you
also can use non-verbal cues here so the
moment I take a step back the moment I
angle my body towards the door our brain
subtly sees ah they are literally trying
to physically disengage so usually I
pair those with those subtle non-verbal
cues of like a slow back up and I angle
towards the door
>> okay
>> and remember you can be assertive with
this the worst kind of last impression
is a lingering awkwardness there is
nothing worse than a well this has been
good it's it's been good for you. It's
It's been good for me. Well, um, so, uh,
those are the worst. So, be assertive
with this. If you want to end it, if
you're feeling it's the end, do it. It's
been so great talking to you. I'm going
to grab some more coffee. Good luck at
the wine bar this weekend. Have so much
fun, right? Like, be assertive with it
or else it will linger. And that is just
kryptonite for charisma.
>> On this point of being assertive.
>> Oh, yes.
>> I was talking to some friends the other
day about people that have aura and riz.
>> Oh, yeah. Who has aura and rz? Who does
>> I don't know. I don't really know what
the words mean. I kind of know what aura
means, but I don't know really know what
rz means. So I I'm curious like how you
define those terms and like how does one
cultivate aura and riz?
>> Okay, I think aura and rz and the only
reason this is front of mind is is my
daughter asked me, she heard one of my
YouTube videos and she said, "What is
charisma?" She asked me that and I was
like oo like she's eight. I said
charisma or rz or aura is someone that
you really want to be around. It's when
they walk into a room, you want to go
over and talk to them, you want to sit
near them, you want to listen to them,
you want to work with them, you want to
play with them. And I said, "Do you know
anyone like that?" And she goes, "Oh,
yes." And she named it was so
interesting. She named two kids in her
class that I had already identified as
very charismatic. Like I knew I in my
mind I knew who the charismatic kids
were in her class. I had I had popped
them, right? I I saw them. They were the
kids that you really wanted to be
around. they they have this aura about
them and she named those exact two kids.
So I think that that definition works.
It's someone that we are drawn to
verbally, physically. I think it also
some of it is can be physical and
there's something hormonal there as
well. Um but it's someone we're drawn
to.
>> Okay. So based on the 20 years of
research you've done Yes.
>> if you were trying to teach me to have
aura and rez.
>> Yes.
>> What are like the basics?
>> Be really easy to talk to.
>> Okay.
>> Right. So the point of level one is to
put someone at ease. We like to be pe
around people who are one clearly
signaling. We don't like people who are
mute with their body language. We don't
like people who under signal. We like
people who clearly like us, right? So we
have to be very aloud with our liking.
So saying things like, "It's always so
fun talking to you." Or, "Oh, you always
have the best stories. Oh, you always
make me laugh. I love when you're put on
my team."
So clearly signaling like and verbally I
think we there's something called um
signal amplification bias which is this
bias that we have that we think we're
being really obvious with our cues but
we are not in fact being obvious. We
think that people know that we like
them. Of course they know that we like
them but actually people underestimate
liking. Right? The liking gap. So we
like people who are very clearly
broadcasting likes. And I have a funny
story if I may. So, this hit very close
embarrassingly to home because of my
job. I don't know if this happens to
you. My friends often ask me to sus out
their partners, like potential partners.
So, like a friend will be like, "Hey, I
met a new guy. Can can you go out dinner
with us and tell me what you think?"
Does that you?
>> Absolutely not.
>> Oh my gosh.
So, I get this a lot and and by the way,
I I'm I'm just a regular person, so I'm
always like, "Are are you sure you
really want to know what I'm Yes. So, I
go on a lot of like second or third
little ghosty coffee dates to see to sus
out the guy that
>> I It makes you feel needed. It makes me
feel needed." Okay. I also love
eavesdropping on like the date
conversation. So, she said, "I really
want you to meet this guy. Let's call
him Schmobbert." Okay.
>> Okay.
And so we go on this dinner. We have
like a Mediterranean platter. And you
know, he was okay. You know, I was like,
"Okay, he's he's nice, but I wasn't like
green flag, green flag." You know, it's
kind of like me. So the next day I get
the call. She's like, "Hey, what did you
think?" And I'm about to say it's only
okay when she goes, "You know what? He
just loved you." Like, "Oh, what?" She
said, "Oh, you know, he thought you were
so funny and he already bought your
Audible book and he just loved talking
to you."
Like the most I started to like him
more. Like it was so embarrassing cuz as
she was telling me all these things
about how he liked me, I was like, you
know,
Robert, he is a great guy. He's clever.
He's so smart. He liked my he liked my
jokes really. And she's like, yeah, he
just, you know, he just really had a
good time with you. And I felt like I
liked him more in that moment. And I was
horrified by my own response. And I
realized
we so want to be liked that when someone
clearly signals liking, it makes us like
them more. Right? So we can be
charismatic. One is we send clear
signals of liking. But also two, and we
talked about this a little bit last
time, is fundamentally 82% of our
impressions of people are based on
warmth and competence. So people who are
first and is first signaling I'm open,
I'm friendly, and then competent, I'm
capable, I'm efficient, I'm effective,
make us feel like I'm in good hands. In
this way, every human being when we
first meet, we're trying to answer two
questions. Can I trust you? And can I
rely on you? So the second thing that
charismatic people are doing is they're
signaling, you can trust me, and you can
rely on me. I'm gonna get it done. I'm
gonna only speak when I know something.
I'm going to be assertive. I'm going to
carry us through this conversation. I
think that sort of the this came after
Q's in a good way because Q's was very
much about picking your signals,
>> but conversation is about being a bit
assertive about the plan, right? Like if
you read this book, you are going to
feel in control in conversation. You're
going to feel like you're approaching a
conversation and you know what you want
to do if you have intention. We like
that.
>> Mhm.
>> Charismatic people like they can they
carry us, right? Like they're like we we
got this. We're going to do level. I'm
gonna ask about this. I'm gonna do dream
killing. And if I like you, if I like
you, we're going to talk about your
character. And so I think that that plan
is a secret door to charisma.
>> Is there anything else that you know
people accidentally do that holds them
back from being someone of high aura?
>> Yes, they try to be impressive. Now, I
know we talked about this before, but
here's what happens when you go into the
conversation trying to sound smart,
trying to impress people with your
accolades and your background is you
actually end up creating distance. And I
have um a story where this felt very
very real. So, I was um living in
Austin, Texas. I I moved since then, but
I was in Austin, Texas. And I was
invited to a VIP party.
>> She lives down at the beach in LA. So,
if anyone wants to do lunch or dinner or
breakfast with Vanessa, she is I'll
share her number in the comment section.
It'll be pinned.
>> Exactly.
So, I was in Austin and I was invited to
this VIP party and I was like, "Oh man,
like what why am I being invited?" Like,
so imposter syndrome. So, we get there
and I'm like immed like oh, I know that
person's YouTube channel. Like, I know
that person. Like, the people I
immediately recognized and I'm like,
"Wow." And then of course like within
the first five minutes the leader of
this group says we're going to get in a
circle and we are going to introduce
ourselves and this is like so we get in
a circle and the first person
basically is like I'm a billionaire and
I invented the internet or something
like that and the second person is like
>> I would love to know what they actually
said. I don't that's what you that's
what you heard. That's what I I was like
invented.
>> Like it was so impressive. It hurt, you
know, and I was like, "Okay, okay." It
first person is all right. The second
person is like, "I cured cancer, right?"
Like like like amazing like and it was
just like person after person. It was
like getting more and more impressive
and like it's slowly coming to me and I
was like everyone was trying to be
impressive, right? Like they're they
were saying things that were meant to to
shock and wow and awe you. It gets to me
and I was like, "My name is Vanessa and
I'm a recovering awkward person and I
help smart awkward people with my books
and my YouTube channel." And everyone
laughed and took a deep breath. Now, I
have other accolades that I could have
shared, but I was like, "It's nothing in
comparison." And also, I just wanted to
be a little vulnerable. So, I said, "And
I don't know why I was invited to this
party." And everyone laughed, right?
There's like a little bit of
vulnerability. Every single person after
me said, "I'm a recovering awkward
person." So like they also were able to
feel awkward. So it changed the nature
of the rest of the invites, the rest of
the introductions. And then afterwards,
the circle like breaks up for
networking. And most people came over to
me, not the billionaire, not the cure of
cancer, not the saving the earth climate
change guru, but wanted to talk to me
about awkwardness and about my YouTube
channel and about they're smart, but
they feel uncomfortable.
And I realized like I was just the
easiest person to talk to in that
circle.
>> You have aura, Vanessa.
>> You have I was the easiest person to
talk to in that circle. And so I think
that if we
>> Do you have aura, Vanessa? You parlay
that out.
>> Maybe when my makeup is done.
>> Do you have aura?
>> When my makeup is done. Maybe.
>> Maybe when my makeup is done.
>> Yeah. I mean, I don't I maybe
>> I don't know. Do I? you do have a
workout.
>> Um, so I I think that I just share that
because we don't have to put so much
pressure on ourselves to be impressive.
In fact, the really impressive people I
I don't know, I haven't met that many
billionaires, but the ones I've met,
like most of them are quite humble and
they're quite like they they downplay
how successful they are because they've
already made it. And so I think if we
all just put less pressure on ourselves
to just connect, that would be easier.
>> It does really track. I was thinking
about the people in my life that have
aura and they're not the people that
have are the most successful, the most
accomplished. They are they are the ones
that you would most like to spend time
with. Yeah.
>> For whatever reason. Yeah.
>> Yeah. They're easy. And and by the way,
it's back and forth. Like you can be
introverted and and or extroverted. You
don't have like people I think think
that master conversationalists are
extroverted. Actually, that's not
usually the case. Sometimes extroverts
fall into their own traps with
conversational narcissism. Uh amberverts
introverts do really well. But one of
the other sort of definitions of aura is
the person who I don't know they just
seem to take up more space. They they
seem to speak slower and be you kind of
like see them walk across a room.
>> What is that? And like how are they
cultivating that like that kind of aura?
>> I think there's I this has been my
guess. I have also thought about this
when someone walks into a room and
you're just like
>> Michelle Obama was like that.
>> Oh I've never met her.
But I can only imagine
>> Tony Robbins as well.
>> He had serious
>> winner.
I think when certain people walk into a
room and they have claimed their space,
I think it's internal and external. I
think physically and this has been
studied. They are t physically taking up
more space whether they're short or tall
in that winners they have more space
between their ears and their shoulders.
They take up more space between their
torso and their arms. they literally
claim more space physically, right? So,
if I were to like do the entire
interview, and I've seen people do
interviews in your chair where they're
taking up as little space as possible,
you you you aren't as drawn to this,
right? And so, I think that physical
there's a physical taking up space and
they're micro movements. Like I it's not
walking in like with my arms up. It's
it's micro, right? It's like a a slight
down of the shoulder. It's a slight up
of the head. And when I do that, it
affects everything about me. Like, it
affects my vocal tone. One thing that I
think about a lot is maximum resonance
point. Maximum resonance point is a a
part of your voice that is the lowest
end of your natural range that signifies
pride that signifies calm. So for
example, when I'm afraid or or a little
bit nervous, like I'll tend to go a
little bit higher in my vocal range. And
if I were to do the entire presentation
in this tone of voice or I was talking
to this, it would be horrible, right?
You would not want to listen to it. And
that's because I'm tightening my vocal
cords. And when someone's very anxious,
they tighten their shoulders, they
tighten their neck, they tighten their
chin. It's more of a loser feeling,
right?
>> And you're also speaking a little bit
faster then.
>> Oh, I Oh, interesting. I I didn't even
notice it, but yes, I think I was Yeah.
rushing. Rushing. Yeah. And I had less
breath. Like
>> I'm actually out of breath after doing
that. So, when we don't have breath,
we're speaking too quickly. My vocal
cords are tense. You can hear it and
they're taking up less even vocal space,
right?
>> Winners use this maximum resonance
point. So, we can actually try it if you
want to. So, I want you at the very top
of your going to take in a deep breath
and say hello at the top of your breath.
So, it sounds like this. Hello.
>> Okay. I'm a little bit sick, hence why
my voice might sound a bit different
today. So, I'm a little bit deeper than
normal, but um
>> hello.
>> Horrible.
>> Yeah, that was embarrassing.
>> Horrible.
>> Yeah.
>> Right. But I hear I listen in on Zoom
calls and I hear people that's their
very first word. Like they literally
hold their breath and they say, "Good
morning."
>> Hello.
>> Hello everyone. Hi. Who? You are
actually giving away your vocal
competence because I'm so far away from
my maximum resonance point. My maximum
resonance point is when I
>> speak on the outreath. So my vocal cords
are relaxed. So now listen to the
difference. So here's the high. Hello
versus hello. Both me, but you're going
to treat me totally differently. So now
take a deep breath and say hello on the
outreath.
>> Hello.
>> Right now that sounds more like you cuz
you usually use your maximum resonance,
right? You're very good at that. And
I've noticed that in work culture,
people who use their maximum resonance
point, they are listened to more. They
are easy to talk to because we want to
listen to them. They take up more aura,
more riz because we're like, ah, cuz we
can hear their confidence. We can hear
their relaxation. And so vocal cues are
such an important aspect of charisma.
You know, all these questions are
beautiful, but how you say your words is
just as important as what you say. If I
were to ask, so uh like what's your
pursue passion project? I guess
I can do it.
This stuff is so terrible. You know,
like my lack of vocal care, you
immediately hear and it tunes you out,
right? So I can if I don't have good
intention here, it does leak out. That's
why earlier when you asked me like,
"Does intention matter?" I said, "If you
have intention to care and try, it's
going to matter. But if you don't, if
you're not trying, people will hear it.
And a lot of that is voice. And I think
that very charismatic people, they're
imbuing their voice with that winning
calm confidence. And we want to catch
it.
>> What about the rest of me? So, we've
talked about some of the specific
conversational questions at the three
stages. We've talked about vocal tone.
Is there any other part of being a great
conversationalist? And I'm thinking now
about I guess we talked about hands and
taking up space, but even eye contact. I
think about this a lot. It takes a lot
of dare I say confidence to for me to
like look you in the eyes like this
Vanessa and ask you a question.
>> That is because when we are making eye
contact chemically we're producing
oxytocin which is great for connection
but also you are not able to process as
much. The reason why eye contact is
quite complicated and I think sometimes
the clips on social media have I don't
like clips very much because it takes
out the nuance. eye contact. Yes,
universally it's good when we have
oxytocin, but also I cannot do complex
thinking when I'm doing this with you,
right? Like when I'm trying to remember
something, I immediately look away. If
you were to ask me a complex mouth
problem, I look away. And so in
conversation, we actually do not want
100% eye contact. We don't even want 70%
eye contact. 60 70% eye contact is is
more ideal in Western cultures. But if
someone is deep thinking or they are
social processing, you actually do want
less eye contact because they're they're
trying to access their memories. If I'm
doing this, I'm purely focused on the
connection. But we're in an interview. I
want to what does my work say? What was
the research? What was the number? And
so that is why it can be sometimes
uncomfortable is because it's not
allowing your brain to think. It's just
about connection.
>> But when you're delivering like I
understand the deliberation, you look
away when you deliver. I do that like
I'm doing right now. But then when I
deliver the point,
>> oh yeah,
>> I come back. Is that
>> you know why? Because one, yes, you're
trying to connect. But two, when you are
delivering, you want to watch my face to
see, do I believe you?
>> Am I raising my eyebrows? Am I showing
you disgust? Am I like, I don't believe
it. I harden my lower lid. So, the
reason why we'll often like we're
processing, we're processing, and then
we're delivering is because two things
are happening at once. We're trying to
connect. I want you to hear my point and
feel it with oxytocin, but also I want
to see, do you believe me or are you
raising your eyebrows?
>> Right? I'm making more eye contact with
you because I'm trying to see where your
interest lies, right? Whereas you're
looking at your iPad because you're
trying to get to the next question. You
want to make sure that we're covering
everything. That's why this is not
natural. This doesn't usually happen
natural conversation. But it's also when
you're in conversation,
you're better off making eye contact in
the first few seconds of an interaction.
So, right when you're on that greeting,
oh, it's so good to see you hopping on
video or in person cuz you're giving
that burst of oxytocin. But then you're
okay to look away. You're okay to
process. You might want to make your eye
contact most when you're trying to sus
out how is this person receiving this.
>> Mhm.
>> That also makes you easy to talk to
because if I notice that you're lighting
up about something, I can pivot more
into that. If I notice you're like,
"That's horrible." I want to be easy to
talk to by pivoting away from it.
>> And when you're talking to me, what is
the best way to be a good listener? M.
So,
>> cuz some people go like they interrupt.
They go, "Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah." And then you've
got other people who will like nod and
like really sort of encourage and
cheerlead when you're talking and then
you'll have the like some people that
they they kind of they don't know
they're doing it, but they start to like
scowl at you.
>> I know. I know. Yes. Yes. That really
bothers me.
>> But it it I I struggle with that a
little bit just personally cuz I'm a
people pleaser. So, when someone's like
I actually have a friend who defaults to
the discuss microp expression. He
doesn't even realize he's doing it. It's
a punctuator. A facial punctuator is a a
non-verbal habit. It doesn't actually
mean anything emotionally. It's just how
they are at rest. I've had to tell
myself he doesn't actually feel
disgusted. So, you're talking about
warmth. All the listening cues are about
warmth. So, listening cues are nodding,
triple nod. Uh the in India, Bulgaria,
and Pakistan, nodding is a little bit
different. So, I always try to make that
note. A head tilt is a universal warmth
signal because we're exposing our ear up
to the sky. Um a lean
>> is uh warm and competent. both actually
cuz I'm trying to literally get closer
to you to understand more deeply. A
competent cue where you're listening is
a lower lid flex. So if I flex my lower
lids at you, this is a universal
response. When we flex our lower lids,
we're trying to see something better.
Right? If I say, "Do you see that over
there?" We harden our lower lids. What
we're doing biologically is we're
hooding our eyes to to block the light
so I can see more detail. So when you're
speaking and someone goes,
they are trying to deeply understand
you. It is not positive or negative. It
is a cue of intense focus. Take note.
>> Mhm.
>> Because whatever you just said has
triggered something in their brain that
they're going what?
>> Mhm.
>> Right. So when I'm giving, you know, a
presentation to a seauite and I have a
couple or or you know, investors or
important people and I see someone do a
lower lid flex, I have a choice. I can
take note of what I just said and
bookmark it or I can stop and do dynamic
presenting. We haven't even talked about
presenting but I can sw this make sense
>> are we good any questions here you know
let me give you another example of this
so you can also look for these cues
which also makes you a pleasure to
listen to because I am so deeply
listening that I'm trying to respond to
your emotional reaction to what I'm
saying
>> I think that is a really we sort of
touched on that earlier but I think it's
a really unappreciated part of being a
good conversationalist is
being dynamic
>> based on the cues you're getting back.
>> Yes. Yes. Actually, please let's double
click on this for a second because I
think
my planners my planners who are watching
are like, "Okay, I got a plan, Vanessa.
I got it. I got my my questions."
What I don't want you to do is have the
plan, ask the question, and then check
off to the next one.
>> Mhm.
>> Right. The whole point of these is
actually to be quite dynamic. It might
be that you ask, "What's your personal
passion project?" And you spend hours
talking about that. What a pleasure.
What a delight.
That means you're being dynamic in that
wa like you both lit up on it. You can
go there. You can dive deep. So I want
you to have a plan, but I also want you
to be dynamic with it. Like both can be
true.
>> Vanessa, of all the things that we have
discussed, is there anything we haven't
talked about that we should have talked
about that appears within your new book,
Conversation: How to Connect with Anyone
and Make Every Interaction Count.
>> There is one thing that we didn't get to
touch on that I think can help you
prepare for good conversation. just very
practically which is you are going to be
asked boring questions. We talked about
this earlier. I want you to if you are
willing write down the questions you are
asked the most often. Everyone kind of
gets similar questions depending on
their job, their industry, where they
are in the world. What are the questions
you're asked most often? And how can you
do better? And then think of what are
gifts to the other person. Not just
interesting for you, right? Like not
just like, oh well, you know, an
interesting fact about me, but like what
is a story or an anecdote or an answer
that's going to let the other person be
like, oh, me too, or really? Or what got
you into that? Or why did you do that?
Because then you're actually your answer
is doing two things. It's interesting,
but it's also conversationally generous.
>> You're not creating a dead end for
yourself.
>> And this is so true because there is a
most interesting thing about everybody.
And that most interesting thing will be
get the same set of questions. Yes,
>> there's someone that I know and um she
has a very interesting career, but in
one part of her career, she went to
Bible school for a couple of years and
I've never met anybody that went to
Bible school for three years. So, I
imagine this person always gets asked
about Bible school for 3 years like like
because everybody wants to know
>> three years of her life. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. So, so I remember I was just
thinking then like that's the question
that everybody when you introduce it,
they were like Bible school.
>> Yeah. Or and I I give this example in
the book is my friend Jason, he can't
smell or taste.
>> Mhm. and he's always at dinners with
people. That's all he does all the time.
He's the editor of Entrepreneur
magazine. And so he is always at
dinners. And he brings up on purpose.
People say, "What are you ordering?"
People ask about food all the time. And
he goes, "Well, actually, I have no I
have no sense of taste or smell. So
what's your favorite thing? What should
I taste? If I could taste something,
what would you have me taste?" And it
produces incredible conversations. So
much so that I was talking to my friend
Nicole Lapen. She goes, "I know Jason."
And she began to tell me about his
interesting stories.
>> She remembered his interestingness from
that answer. So even like where are your
settings? Are you doing coffee? Is there
interesting coffee anecdotes? Are you
always at meals? Are you right? So you
can also set yourself up and them up for
success with those interesting answers.
>> So have a script for the questions that
you get asked the most that offer gifts
to those that are on the receiving end
of that answer.
>> Yeah. And the last thing I would say is
this is a plan. And the entire goal of
this is for you to feel more in control,
for you to feel more confident. You
know, I think as someone who wasn't
confident for a long time and who had
very awkward conversations for a long
time, just knowing that I had a good
intent helped me a lot. So, this is the
plan. But also, feel free to totally
deviate from the plan. That when you're
in the moment, if you're feeling excited
and and interested and engaged, go with
it. If you're feeling I don't like this
person, I don't feel this person, we are
off, you can leave the conversation.
>> Who did you write this book for,
Vanessa? So if they're, you know, if
they've gotten to this stage in the
conversation and they're thinking,
should I get that book or not? Who is it
for?
>> This is for people who want to stop
dreading small talk. Dread is was a real
motivation for me because so many of my
students would say, "Oh, I have to go to
the networking event. I I'm dreading
talking to my boss. I hate those first
five minutes of my team call. Oh, I
don't know what to talk about on a
date." And first dates are horrible.
First dates can be fun if you have a
conversational plan. Even if it's not
your person, they can still be fun.
Conversation can be not awkward. It can
be great at the start of a meeting if
you know how to do it. And so I would
like to get rid of the dread in your
life. I would like to get rid of the
awkwardness in your life because and the
deeper meaning is we are in a loneliness
epidemic. And I think if we don't
remember how good the joy of
conversation is, we won't do it. And so
if I can take away the dread of
conversation and give you beautiful
conversation with your person or not,
you're going to feel less lonely.
>> Kind of sounds like it's for all of us.
I think it's for all of us.
>> What a wonderful book and what a
perfectly timed book at a time when AI
and computers are, you know, robbing us
of the joy of human conversation. And I
think increasingly kids are going to
struggle with conversations. I mean,
people are saying this already. Teachers
say to me that, you know, they see their
kids in class and they don't know the
basic skills of how to relate to each
other through conversation. So, a great
book I think for
>> It was meant to be now. It was meant to
be now.
>> It was meant to be. It took you a long
time, right?
>> Yeah.
>> Many years. 20 years. Wow. Well, I'm
glad it's here. Conversation: How to
connect with anyone and make every
interaction count. And I'm going to link
it below if anyone wants to go and buy
it right now.
>> Thank you.
>> What a wonderful book, Vanessa.
Congratulations.
>> Oh my goodness. Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you. It's finally here. Thank you
for helping me bring it into the world.
>> It's okay. You You deserve everything.
You're such a phenom.
>> My gosh, I hardly I'm obsessed with
people. That's it.
>> We have a closing tradition where the
last guest leaves a question for the
next guest, not knowing who they're
leaving it for. And the question left
for you is, do you feel like there are
things you sacrificed in your personal
life to build your success that you
regret and wish you could now get back?
>> Yes. Um, you know, I briefly mentioned
that I moved and I moved to be closer to
family. Um, and that was because I think
I sacrificed friendship and family
relationship in the hustle. You know, we
moved to Austin for for work. I moved to
Austin for work and I left my family and
I I don't regret Austin cuz I had some
great growth there, but I regret being
away from my family when my children
were very very little. It was really
hard to have babies without my mom,
without my sister. And so I wish I could
have figured that out a little bit
differently, but I'm here now.
>> And what is it you wish you could get
back?
>> I felt very alone as a new mom, and I
don't think that helped me or my
children. I wish I could get back at
time to feel more communal. You know,
having a baby is such a beautiful thing
for family and friends. And it was it
was very lonely cuz I just didn't have a
lot of people around me.
>> And now you're here.
>> I know. by the beach in LA.
>> I'm back. My sister is at my house right
now.
>> Oh, really?
>> With my kids. Yes.
>> It's good to have you in town.
>> I'm so excited. And I will come maybe.
>> I don't believe you. You don't have to
say it. You don't have to say it. I'm
not going to invite you to anything.
>> Conversation, how to connect with anyone
and make every interaction count. Please
do go buy this book. Very important to
Vanessa and also very important to me by
way of that. And it's a brilliant,
brilliant book. One I think that we all
need. Vanessa, thank you. We're done.
>> Thank you.
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