I've always been terrified.
I uh
>> Just in general?
>> I think it's part of what I'm here to
learn.
You find
uh
meaning in uh in everything once you
have
uh a purpose, a journey.
And I think that it's time for us
to uh
to make it okay
to talk about this stuff. I don't have
any answers. I have no clue except for I
know what happened to me and I know what
I saw.
And then
I never woke up.
The next day I was somebody else.
>> Uh yes, hello. I'm I'm calling to report
an incident that happened when I was uh
active duty military, US Army in
Kitzingen, Germany in 2002.
We were at the firing range and a
gigantic UFO appeared above us and um
most people were like frozen in time,
like just frozen, including myself. But
I could see, I could move my eyes and I
had a cigarette in my hand before the
incident happened and when it when it
ended, the cigarette was burnt all the
way down to the filter. So, we
definitely lost time, like a few
minutes. And um I did hear a voice in my
head speak to me. And what it said was
that not to be afraid, that they weren't
going to harm us, but they were
collecting a DNA scan. And ever since
then, I have had um
some very strange dreams, very strange
downloads.
Um I I watch your podcast all the time
and just wanted to uh
leave this information that uh it
definitely has happened to me.
>> Uh welcome Thomas Jane.
>> Thank you.
>> Um for those of you who are not familiar
with some of your work, I would
definitely type them out on IMDb and
you'll probably recognize a few movies
at least at the very least that you've
been a part of. I mean
just
I I found out yesterday you've done a
lot of Stephen King movies actually. Uh
which
>> Yeah, the Dreamcatcher,
1922,
and then The Mist.
>> Yeah.
>> Mist which is
>> Yeah.
>> an amazing movie by every standard. I
think to this day it's just like one of
those
really really incredible ones. Um have
you by the way have you like on a on a
side here, have you seen Widow's Bay?
>> No, not yet.
>> It's on Apple. It's great. It's a horror
/ comedy.
>> Mhm.
>> Um Matthew Rhys it's is is the lead.
>> Oh, yeah.
>> Um
phenomenal, but he he borrows from so
many
uh Stephen King movies.
>> Okay.
>> Including The Mist.
>> All right.
>> So at one point um
his character who he's like the I guess
the the town mayor, Mayor Tom, and he
runs back in cuz there's this fog
creeping in and along with the fog comes
like all this
I don't know bad news and bad luck and
whatnot.
>> Okay, good.
>> All the bad juju. And he runs in and he
goes
"There's something in the fog." And I go
that's from The Mist. There's something
in The Mist. And so yeah, a movie that's
still being referenced today.
>> That's great.
>> Um but yeah, that's not what we're here
to talk about although I'm sure we're
going to get into some of that, but
we're here to talk about
um the UFO / UAP phenomenon
>> Mhm.
>> and the fact that you sent me an I guess
an early advanced copy of your new book
>> Mhm.
>> uh The Watchers.
>> Mhm. Well, I know you're a reader, you
know, and um and I um
and it has uh
I've written a an account of uh
something that happened to me in 2011.
So.
>> Yeah.
Um
>> And I wanted you to read that.
>> Well, I appreciate you sending that my
way.
And I did read it. Um I've been
furiously reading it. Uh not reading it
in a furious manner, but trying to get
through it before you got here cuz I you
know lots of stuff going on, but I'm
every night
>> No.
>> you know, ripping through these pages.
It's a really well-written book, and
one of my favorite things about this
book, I think, other than your personal
experience, because you are by every
metric an experiencer,
uh you know, to those wondering what
your connection to this is and how you
got into that, maybe we'll get into that
a bit later, but you are an experiencer,
and so a lot of this is through the lens
of someone who is deeply affected by the
phenomenon on a personal very personal
way, and it and to an extent really
messed with you, and still to this day,
I take it, does mess
with you.
>> Changed my life.
>> Yeah.
>> Changed everything about my life.
Yes. I'm an unwilling participant.
And uh as so many uh people are that I
found out, you know, but
in 2011, uh
I had no idea that any of this stuff
existed, you know, I liked UFOs as a
kid, but I liked, you know, uh vampires,
too.
And uh one of the, you know,
disappointments of being a kid was
realizing that vampires is is totally
made up,
and that UFOs were just, you know,
totally impossible, you know, they just
didn't make any sense how they could get
here. It just uh unfortunately,
you had to sort of throw them into that
and I and I did. I did for a long time,
for years, and until 2011.
>> Yeah, there's a
like a magic trick.
Sometimes,
you know, it's good to suspend your
disbelief to enjoy the magic.
>> Mhm.
>> But,
there is, in your case, and just like
any really good magic trick,
it is the unwilling suspension of
disbelief. You were forced to suspend
that disbelief in this encounter, and uh
I do want to get into that, but I also
want to talk about
every chapter of this book
is Okay, first of all, there's a lot of
really deep
philosophical
takes on this stuff. You know, you you
reference everyone from Keel and Vallee
to people like Avi Loeb in the
mainstream sort of UAP narrative and
everything happened on on the science
side. Like, you've
clearly done your homework with all
this. I didn't know this prior to
meeting you. We met at Contact in the
Desert. And when I started looking you
up and like your connection to the
phenomenon,
I started realizing like, "Oh, wow,
you've been going to like MUFON
symposiums. You've been like You've been
really ingrained in this. You're not
just an Forgive the the term, but you're
not just a celebrity who's interested in
UFOs. You have a real history with this
stuff."
>> Yeah, recently, you know, I mean, when
when I first fell down the rabbit hole,
I did I I met Travis Walton at uh
a a convention near the LAX Airport. I
met Linda Moulton Howe.
And then she talked to me for like 45
minutes, you know, it was just It was It
was really interesting.
Um but then I kind of backed away. I I
got with into Steven Bassett. He He
started having this monthly meeting uh
where people would come in. I heard
about that and started showing up and
met Steve.
I um,
got roped into narrating a Steven Greer
documentary.
>> Oh, I didn't know that.
>> called Sirius. Yeah, it was his first
documentary. And they came to I had
Greer come over to my house and show me
photos of that Atacama humanoid, you
know,
>> Oh, yeah.
>> kitchen.
>> Yeah.
>> And uh that was odd. It was just
interesting experience. Uh but I
narrated the documentary. Gary Nolan,
that was the first appearance of Dr.
Gary Nolan who did the genetic analysis
of the Atacama humanoid.
>> I remember that documentary very well.
>> Yeah, it was cool. It was I was happy to
be a part of it, you know. Um just try
to find ways to spread the word. And
these were relatively early days, you
know. And then
I all this time I've been making notes,
you know, uh
My I guess it's a
normal reaction when my world was
shattered. I just started writing things
down. I had to write down to try to
put things in a
in a place where I could look at them
and try to see how how things might fit
together and how any of this might
comport with the world as I understood
it.
The real world, you know, the world that
was that uh
that everyone tells you is real and the
one that is strictly reinforced by the
rules of uh of the game here on Earth.
So, that was a conundrum. And those
notes eventually turned into um
the uh the outline of a book.
And then I started to Somebody invited
me to Contact in the Desert 3 years ago.
So, that was We met I've been there
twice before that.
>> Right.
>> asked me to talk, you know. I did a talk
at um
the Hollywood Disclosure Alliance.
>> Sure.
>> A lot of great people there, real
really, you know, terrific, interested
in the topic. Um Along the way I became
really good friends with Paul Hynek.
I love that
>> love that guy.
>> me those.
>> And I saw them in,
yes. I blessed them. I blessed
>> Well, they're protecting you, sir.
>> Yeah, thank you. I'll need it.
>> Thank Paul.
>> And he
he
we really hit it off and had had a lot
to um
These conversations are what
or how we
learn, how we put the pieces together,
you know, how we're all sort of groping
in the dark around these things and
somebody's like, "Hey, come over here.
Feel this. What What the hell is that?"
And uh
I've been happy to be
involved with Contact. It's a fantastic
It's two organization of
of like-minded human beings.
And um
So, that So, yeah, I guess I've been
involved peripherally.
>> Sure. I mean, more than most. It's It's
really quite interesting because
I would say, you know,
when you get people's takes on the
phenomenon normally from someone who's
just approached the phenomenon recently
maybe due to revelations in the news or
congressional hearings,
there is a
uh
I don't know. There's a path
that you can see people take where and
I've been victim to this same thing, but
you start off with like,
"Flying saucers and the greys." And like
that's like the whole thing.
>> Yeah.
>> And then no, they're from Zeta. And then
like this whole right and it evolves.
And over time, you know, when I meet
somebody who's just gotten into the uh
the topic and I don't consider myself to
be, you know, an expert by any metric,
but when I meet somebody who's really
green around the gills or you know, for
this
uh
I hear them say, "Oh, yeah, it's it's,
you know, they're they speak with such
certainty." And there's this Dunning
Kruger effect of like, you know, very
high level of confidence. It's the greys
and they're from Zeta. Um
>> We have to nail it down somehow.
>> Yeah, exactly. And then I'm I'm I'm very
excited because then I get to say
well, just wait till you get
to the point where you understand
there's like a whole non-physical thing
that's just way more prevalent than
anything physical in this topic.
>> That's right.
>> And and they go, "Yeah, but that's just
like technology that the greys have or
something, right?" And I go, "I'll see
in 6 months."
And then down the road they go, "Oh my
god." You know, and they start reading
Jacques Vallee and and uh Keel and like
all sorts of other
>> Yeah.
>> Um
>> Jacques Vallee is kind of like the Isaac
Newton of ufology. Right?
>> How do you mean?
>> Newton uh
changed our understanding. He took um
the laws of motion and he sort of, you
know, made made the celestial and
brought it down to Earth and connected
the two with this this really solid
theory that uh that can be built upon.
And Newtonian mechanics still work uh
for the most part. You know, you can you
can build an entire civilization off of
Newtonian mechanics.
But you know, Newton was also really
interested in alchemy. He spent He wrote
most of his writing was about, you know,
solving the secret to biblical texts and
stuff like that. And he had And this he
was interested in this hidden divine
order.
>> I didn't know that about
>> underlying reality. That was Newton.
He was fascinated That was his whole
mission in life was to uncover this
hidden divine order, which Vallee also
has
helped us to understand the phenomenon
in a new way by saying human
consciousness is being impacted
by uh
what he called a non-human control
system, right? Which
I'm a fan. I I take that as a baseline.
And I say that
Vallee is like Newton because these
theories are 50 years old. John Keel,
Vallee, these are fantastic, you know,
um, connections. These are wonderful
dots that have been strung together into
a really interesting pearl necklace.
That necklace
needs to be shattered. Those pearls need
to be rearranged into an Einsteinian
understanding.
>> Right.
>> There's another level
to this phenomenon that is waiting to be
cracked open. We're waiting for the
Einstein interpretation. Einstein
looked at Newton's stuff, looked at the
clockwork, was also interested in
a divine order, you know, he eventually
said God doesn't play dice.
But he took the speed of light and said
that's a fundamental aspect of the
universe that can't be broken. In fact,
space and time bend around the observer
to create this
different realities depending on who the
observer is and what speed they're
traveling in, but the speed of light is
this sort of fundamental envelope which
all of space and time revolves around
and the observer plays a fundamental
part in how we see the universe. And I
think that we're waiting for, uh, that
kind of, um, architecture to be applied
to the work of Vallee, the work of Keel,
uh, the idea that this, you know, Keel
thought that this intelligence was
ancient.
That there was a Not that that the
extraterrestrial hypothesis itself was
the Trojan horse.
>> Yes.
>> That the
>> Yeah.
>> uh,
flying saucers sort of rode in on, you
know, it's it's sort of sneaking in the
under this guise of space being.
>> Of whatever we want it to be.
>> Yeah, and and also fairies or demons or
ghosts and that there was this
all-encompassing intelligence and that
was sort of the the secret according to
Keel.
And I think both of those things are
kind of true.
>> Yeah, and they're and they're based in
some form
on, you know, you touched this you
touched on this in your book as well,
but like Madame Blavatsky and the whole
Theosophy movement and you know,
everything is sort of derived there and
even like
you know, Jacques Vallee was famously
and so was J. Allen Hynek, Rosicrucian.
>> Right.
>> And so, you know, there is this tie to
like hermeticism to these ancient orders
of, you know, science, if you will.
>> Blavatsky and the theosophists
were trying to
connect with a higher intelligence
through their spiritual practices and
that can that could go as far as sort of
the Rosicrucian or the Golden Dawn type
of um, technology, the magical
technologies that are designed
>> The alchemy, yeah.
>> to open us up to a
basically a non-human in form of
intelligence or a higher intelligence
and the theosophists call them the
ascended masters.
>> Yeah.
>> But they opened the door in the, you
know,
turn of the century and then that crept
up into the 30s and the 40s, uh,
the 1920s with Alice A. Bailey. They
were
um,
connecting with the what they called the
the Mahatmas, which were these hidden
masters that lived in remotest Tibet and
that they had these sort of celestial
sort of abilities and then that
transformed into um, hidden masters not
even living on Earth, they're living in
Venusian realms or or in some higher
plane of existence and that we could
connect with them telepathically.
>> Yeah.
>> And that laid the groundwork for the
contactee movement.
>> Yeah, Venus, Jupiter even, like all the
Saturn, they were coming from
>> They were coming from
>> Mars, all these planets.
>> from our solar system and pinging on us
down here telling us to, you know, clean
up our act. They were basically here to
save us from ourselves.
And the Theosophists really laid the
groundwork for this whole
idea that you can telepathically
communicate with these non-human
intelligences that looked suspiciously
human.
You know, very uh
They looked like uh you know,
Scandinavian models that were getting
off their spaceships in the desert.
Which is really strange and I was trying
to
comport the fact that we do have
really strong
um accounts of these
not just humanoid
but humanesque
beings that could pass for you and me,
that could walk down the street.
And that
these are the same beings that were
reported by the contactees, which I
don't put a lot of
credence into.
>> You You don't until you until you
realize that like cuz I'm the I'm of the
same ilk I I I think
where okay
I don't know if we're actually dealing
with tall blonde people in spandex.
>> Right.
>> Um
but then
you'll speak to someone who look you
dead in the eye, who's never been
interested in this stuff in their life,
never blinked, never batted an eye in
this direction.
>> Yeah.
>> And they break down because they're
telling you about a time where they were
out of Chipotle and this 8-ft tall
couple stared and talked to him in his
head
and it changed everything for him.
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>> 1942, the guy who had an experience with
a with a human-esque tall blonde longer
hair, you
>> Yeah, Udo Udo Wartena.
>> Right. Udo.
Um so
>> the Montana foothills, actually.
>> That's right. These accounts do exist. I
believe them. I really do. I I think
that they're too varied. When we start
looking into this stuff,
um there's either there's a wonderful
account from just a couple of years ago
that we could get in into later.
Uh that happened in Brazil.
Uh
that Pavel from Psychoactive turned me
on to.
>> Oh, yes.
>> Right.
>> Yes, the being that bled.
>> Yeah. Yeah, the Dr. Paul Perrault.
>> Yeah, they're doing tests on his blood
now.
>> Right. Well, they they've done Are they
done the tests? Have they? Yeah.
>> Are the results back?
>> Yeah. Uh the results have come back.
They they uh are fascinating. Um the um
>> Can you give us a brief rundown of what
that story is? There was like an injured
being, right? If I'm not mistaken. I I
I'm a little foggy on
>> Right. So, 2019,
I think is the year that the
worst wildfires in Bolivia, all over
South America, the the worst they'd ever
seen. I mean, the whole damn country was
burning down. They lost millions of
animals, thousands of indigenous tribes.
It was a disaster.
The worst one that that South America
had had um at the time. Unfortunately,
there was an even worse fire in 2024.
So, this is the heart of our planet.
These are the heart and lungs of our
planet. The rainforest is now being uh
it's we we kind of know now that that
rainforest is a man-made thing that some
ancient civilization actually created
the soil, which is the richest soil on
the planet. That's an technology.
That rainforest is a ancient technology
that's been created. Uh and now, you
know, of course, we're we're burning it
down. But, I could see how non-human
intelligence might be interested in that
part of the planet. A ton of reports
come out of Brazil.
>> I mean, most of life is there.
>> It's It's
>> at the number of living things on the
planet, like most of it is there, right?
>> It's the It's the birthplace of of the
cauldron of life on this planet, sort of
erupting out of this thing. It's
gorgeous
piece of uh
uh it's a jewel of the universe, I would
think, you know.
>> I would agree.
>> And
Dr. Paul Parada was a young man who had
volunteered to be a first aid guy. And
he had a cabin out in the middle of
nowhere on the edge of the wildfires.
Towards the end of their of their reign,
right? So, the wildfires were kind of
burning down. They were still being
fought in a few areas. Firemen were
coming out. They brought people in from
>> all over the world
>> to try to get a handle on this fire. So,
it wasn't uncommon to see Europeans or,
you know, people from everywhere. The
French, a lot of a lot of people from
the UK had come in. Firefighters,
volunteers.
Um you know, there was cholera was
running rampant. The animals were all
burning to death. They didn't have
water. The water had been poisoned by
the ashes that was falling into it.
And so, people were doing what they
could. And Parada was, you know, like
all of the those guys would work in
shifts. They'd work for like 3 days
straight until they couldn't stand
anymore and then a truck would come and
pick them up and and take them away. So
it was his last night there. He stepped
outside to grab a smoke. It was about
11:00 at night and he sees
a white man coming up the trail. In the
middle of nowhere, the firemen are all
deep into the forest. But he's figuring
this is a
one of the firefighters that had come to
help. And as the guy gets closer, he's
tall, he's got
longer blonde hair, and he's wearing a
skin-tight spandex style
>> Yeah.
>> uh outfit.
>> you would in the rainforest.
>> As you would. And it And it had these
stripes on them, silver silver like
Morse code, like a a line and then a dot
and then a line, and they were sort of
all over his uniform. And he's thinking,
Parada, he's thinking, ah, these
Europeans, they've got the best
firefighting gear. And And he had a
blanket on.
And the blanket was a local blanket uh
with like a print of a ti- leopard on it
or something. He Parada remembers that.
It's this guy that's wearing this fancy
outfit while wearing with this um
Bolivian, you know, popular at the time
tiger print blanket around his
shoulders. And he came up and Parada's
like, how can I help you? And he says,
I've been I've been injured.
And he And he says, oh,
come inside. Let's take a look at it.
And uh
they walk into this little shack
where which was repurposed as his first
aid kit. He's like, have a seat. Tell me
what where where where what's going on.
And the guy pulls down his
uniform and he pulls his arm out and
he's got a gash on his arm that goes
from like here to here, bleeding like
crazy. And the first thing Parada
noticed was that none of the blood was
on his uniform. That somehow his arm was
bleeding fiercely. But none of the blood
was on his his uniform, which was
spotless.
And
he's like, "Oh man, how did how did you
do that?"
To yourself. And the guy looked at him.
And in Parada's mind
he hears the words, "It was a baby
puma."
And Parada freezes. And he's like, "Did
that guy
Did that guy just talk to me in my
mind?" And then the guy puts a hand on
his shoulder and goes, "Calm down.
Everything's going to be okay." In his
mind.
And Parada just loses it. In the He's
like thinking, "How do I get out of
here? This guy's obviously I don't know
what he is, but I need to get the hell
out of here. There's nobody's around."
He's in the middle of nowhere.
And
he eventually the guy just says,
"Listen,
you know."
Parada goes over to the first aid kit
and he stitches this guy's arm arm up.
And as he's stitching his arm up, he
realizes the guy's got no body hair.
Not anywhere. And he looks at his face
and he he's not clean-shaven. He doesn't
have hair
on his face.
And he does that. I think it takes him
40 minutes or something. Like a long
time.
Uh when he finally gets it done, he
gives him a little baggy. He's like,
"Listen, you need to take care of this.
Take these pills, but go There's another
place that can help you way better than
I can. So, when you're ready to get the
stitches out go somewhere else."
>> Yeah.
>> And the guy goes uh
the the uh
humanesque
goes, "Don't be afraid of what you're
going to see next."
And Parada's like
"Okay."
And he looks around and he grabs a pair
of medical scissors and he puts them in
his up his sleeve.
And he And he goes, "Okay." And the And
the guy opens the door and s-
Right outside the shack is a UFO with
all its lights off.
Dark gray, silent, with no lights on.
Just hanging above the trees.
>> A saucer. A round saucer.
And below the saucer are two little
humanoids, like grays, but they were
greenish and they didn't have big heads.
They had big black eyes, normal size or
proportionally sized heads.
But the And their skin was a little
greenish and they were wearing the same
outfit as our our man.
And Parada starts kind of walking with
these with this guy and it sort of lets
the guy get ahead and gets under the
thing and then he And then he sort of
says, "Okay, I'm
going back inside."
And the guy turns around under the
spaceship was standing there with his
two buddies and in his mind he goes,
"Thank you, Paul."
And he hadn't said said his name. He
hadn't told the guy what his name was.
And Paul Parada ran back in there,
slammed the door, and uh
stayed in there all night terrified that
they were going to come back and take
him away or, you know, that
they were going to kidnap him and take
him to another planet. I mean, he he was
losing his mind.
He kept this story to himself for a long
time, but he couldn't sleep at night.
And
he started having these dreams.
And in the dreams he was in a white
room. And in the white room was our guy.
And he was being operated on and he had
these The little dudes were there and he
keeps having these dreams and he's
freaking out and he
tells his wife. His wife's like, "You're
losing your mind." He
does an interview with somebody I think
from Argentina.
Uh and that gets picked up and goes all
around South America. His boss fires
him, loses his job. Uh his wife is They
have a baby on the way or a a second
baby on the way.
And uh his wife's like, "What the hell
are you doing?" You know, and and he
really
it was sort of a dark night of the soul
for Parra. He couldn't live with it and
he couldn't live without it.
So, he started
um
going He started reaching out. He
started telling his story.
And J.J.,
the Spanish
researcher,
um I'm going to forget his last name,
but his his name is J.J.
Um he's a famous guy. He's like the
Jacques Vallée of Spain.
He reached out and he said, "I'm flying
over there. I want you to show me
everything."
Um and so he does. And he Parra takes
him to the shack. He's there with his
guys. He tells him the whole story. And
then Parra says, "You know, I still got
those uh
cotton balls."
>> Had a gauze like
>> Yeah. I've got the gauze. I saved it.
Uh I've got that guy's blood.
And so,
uh
J.J. said, "I've got the means to have
this stuff tested." So, he gave him some
of the blood, not all of it.
And they had it tested over about 6
months. And this was only like in 2024
or something that they finally got this
stuff tested.
And um
it's turns out that it's the DNA is
completely human,
but the
it's female.
The
>> chromosomes
>> chromosomes, there are no male
chromosomes
in the in the in the blood. So, this
somehow they were genetically engineered
to be
female. Even though this was clearly a a
masculine, muscular uh guy
without any facial hair.
>> Mhm.
Was there anything else that was
peculiar about the blood?
>> Yeah.
Um
it was immortal.
The
blood cells on the gauze were didn't
decay, they didn't turn black, they
didn't get crusty the way blood
>> fresh.
>> They were fresh as as the day
>> Still?
>> They're still as fresh as the day as
they as they came out of as they as he
found them on that day.
>> No way.
>> No.
Very interesting. And they say maybe
there's some sort of nanotechnology in
there or some sort of
bio
preservative
>> preservative
>> preservative, some sort of you know,
some sort of
genetic anomaly that they've engineered
to sort of make this blood immortal.
Now, um
bacteria's immortal.
Uh you know, um single-celled organisms,
they've been around forever. They divide
and divide and divide and they
they've sort of they sort of have no
they don't carry information so that
they're they've been immortal on the
planet forever. And maybe they're able
to use something like that and blend
them together. I have no idea.
>> But
>> But if their blood is immortal,
they're probably immortal.
>> Yeah, that's the that's the next
conclusion. Um
>> Which means that the same beings that
are interacting with us today
could have been the same beings that
have been interacting with us
>> Yeah.
>> for thousands of years.
>> Ashtar right there.
>> Ashtar.
>> Um that is such a remarkable story
and so recent cuz you I mean, what was
the last time you'd heard about flying
saucers with a tall blonde Swedish guy?
It wasn't prior to 1975. Like I mean
>> Yeah.
And
that was a setup.
That guy that came out of the forest and
said I've got a gash on my arm.
>> so, too. That was my That was my next
conclusion. Like
this was a donation.
>> That's right.
>> Clearly.
>> This was a donation.
>> A poo- a baby puma? What?
>> Yeah.
>> You talking Is that's the best you can
come up with?
>> Per- Peralta had
uh JJ had um
uh several labs test the blood.
And all of that and somehow
um all of that has sort of gotten
brushed under the rug. Peralta stopped
coming out. He stopped talking.
>> Mhm.
>> Pavel, our friend Pavel, says that
the Queen of England may have gotten the
Queen of Spain may have gotten involved
somehow.
>> Weird.
>> That's um
>> I'll have to speak to Pavel about it.
>> Yeah, you really should. He's looked
into He's He's done some interesting
research and he did the translations of
the interview. That's how I found the
case and I write about it in in the book
cuz I think it's the most fascinating
case and maybe the most consequential
case.
>> Clearly with a donation
>> to have come
about. And then, you know, there
that goes on. We we can get into that
another time, but the
experiences that Peralta had on the
craft with these beings. He actually He
was freaking out.
They were in in that white room. He
said, "Listen, this this has got to end.
My life is, you know,
>> Like his dreams.
>> Yeah, stop I know this isn't a dream.
I'm waking up with bruises on me. I wake
up with stuff, you know, I know what you
guys are doing.
And you got to stop cuz my life is
falling apart." And they said,
"Give us 3 days."
They said, "Come with us. We're going to
work with you for 3 days and then we'll
let you go and we'll never
we'll never bother you again.
And he, you know, he kind of didn't have
really have a choice, and he did.
>> So, he he went onto the craft or
an underground
>> Wherever.
>> Wherever the hell he was.
>> days.
>> For 3 days.
>> And he swears by this?
>> Absolutely.
>> Oh my god.
>> Yeah. Oh, and the stuff that they uh
talk about is rather shocking.
>> I have to look into this case a little
more. That's very interesting.
>> Rather amazing.
>> Well, go give um
go give Pavel a follow if you're
listening. I mean, he's got a lot of
interesting stuff that he covers as
well. Yeah, Psychoactive.
>> Right, thank you. Some of the uh
cases that are coming out of South
America and worldwide are really worthy
of studying. This is a worldwide
phenomenon.
>> Yeah.
>> And um we're obviously, it feels to me
that we're entering a new phase, not
only in our own sort of awakening,
but in in the interactions, you know,
we're we're now being sort of we're
gradually
>> We've leveled up.
>> We've leveled up, thank you.
>> Wow.
And very interesting case. I mean, and
no shortage of interesting cases are
covered in this book. I can tell you're
a fan of Preston Dennett, as am I,
>> Yeah.
>> uh because you include these obscure
>> Yeah.
>> um cases. And this one maybe not so
obscure, but there are some very obscure
ones uh that I do want to like bring up
because
I'm every chapter, I was delighted to
learn about a new encounter. And these
are like not just, "Oh, I saw a
triangle." Uh which I'm not
>> No, I uh
>> ever discounting that that's important.
That's obviously life-changing. But um
uh a few that stuck out to me was was uh
a few that stuck out to me were Joseph
Wandka
>> Mm.
>> from Vienna, Austria 1955.
>> Yes.
>> Um so, he
this man was like riding his bike,
>> Yep.
>> sees these lights think uh coming down,
and he's thinking, "Oh, there's a plane
or something. Somebody's crashing." You
know, the the war had ended maybe.
>> Yeah, the war had ended a decade before.
>> That's Yeah, yeah. And and then Austria.
It was in Austria. He was a
German-Austrian. The Europe was in
tatters, you know. Um
the
social unrest was pretty high. And
Joseph was a young man. I think he was
27 years old.
Jobless, pissed off. Really one of those
kind of angry, you know, socialists,
right?
At the world. And he was driving through
a forest path. He used to spend his days
riding around on his moped.
>> Oh, it was his moped. That's right.
>> really just, you know,
probably trying to tame the demons in
his mind, you know. He was driving
around and he sees a glint in the
forest.
And so he leaves the path and he drives
over and there's this 30-ft silver disc
sitting in a clearing in the middle of
the forest. And the door was open. And
the ramp was down. It was like a 12-ft
ramp and a 6-ft wide door. And Joseph,
for whatever reason, drives his moped
right up the ramp and into the craft.
Where these six beings are waiting for
him there. Now, he doesn't say this, but
I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't
sort of telepathically sort of coax him
onto that craft. I don't know. Maybe he
just got a bike.
>> what would compel you to do this? But
then again, we don't know. Maybe that's
just a quirk that Joseph has.
>> Maybe.
And uh
these beings were childlike. They were
um
>> looked like children.
>> Yeah, not not big heads, not grays, you
know. They they were basically looked
like 10-year-old children, really, you
know. They had blonde hair. They had
this weird silken sort of inflated ruff
as a collar.
Um they they had mittens on, which were
were, you know, sort of these gloves,
but with fing- fingerless gloves, and
they
he he they started talking to him in
perfect Austrian German.
And he's like,
"How the hell did you guys learn Where
are you guys from?" And he they said,
"We have come from the highest peaks of
Cassiopeia."
Uh, and then he realized, "Oh my god,
like these are these are like space
people."
>> Yeah.
>> So, he's like, "How do you guys know
German?" And he's like, "We learned it."
And then he starts telling them all
about He's like, "Oh my god, you look at
you. You've you're obviously like got
some figured out. Are you here to
help us? Are you here to help, you know,
save Europe?"
>> And he starts telling them about Hitler,
about the war, and
>> Right, right. And then and then they're
like, "No, we didn't come here to
interfere in any way in in your
terrestrial matters. We just came here
to to observe, you know, and check it
out." But they were like, "Tell me about
this machine you're driving. It's really
interesting. How does it work?"
So, they they got it Joseph to describe
the the basics of a combustion engine
uh, to these space space people. And
then he's Joseph says like the the
little cabin he was in, there was no
instrumentation. He couldn't see any
chairs. It was just empty in there.
But there was, um, filling up with the
smell of like warm oil from his moped.
>> Hm.
>> And it's very evocative of story.
Joseph, uh,
started, you know, raging about the s-
the state of the world, and how it was
the industrialists were taking over, and
the poor were, you know,
living the rich were living off the
backs of these poor people. And And they
said, "Yeah,
but you must know yourself how to fix
these matters. And if you want to start,
you know, you know know, a revolution
can be started, and you can change all
of that, but you got to do it yourself.
Um and then uh
and then as he was pleading with them,
as Joseph tells it, the beings started
to cry. They started to weep
with like empathy
for for his his rage, his socialist rage
at the world.
And then Joseph got really embarrassed
by seeing these little space beings
crying for him in this little cabin and
he got really uncomfortable and he says,
"Okay, well, I I I I should probably
leave. I should probably go."
And he
he he bowed and they bowed and he took
his
moped and drove down the ramp and left.
And then regretted it for the rest of
his life. Kicked himself. Like, "Why did
I leave? You know,
why did I
why did I start, you know,
telling these folks to fix my planet? It
was like the first thing out of my
mouth."
>> Oh, you're space fix
>> And make them cry.
>> Yes, yeah, then they start weeping.
>> Oh, no.
>> And it's um
at the sorry state of who he was and
where he was and life on Earth and the
whole thing is fascinating to me, you
know, that
they have these interactions and I and I
think that in a lot of ways a lot of the
the the beings that don't that aren't
here for, you know, um
other purposes
do come here to experience, you know,
to check us out, to check out life on
Earth.
>> Yeah, little visitors, little tourists
on us.
>> As if if if we could take a tour of
Rome,
>> Yeah.
>> like I would do it in a heartbeat. Like,
that would be the greatest tour in the
world. Just to walk around, just to just
to see how somebody lived their life for
one day.
>> That's true.
>> And and walk the streets, you know, of
of Rome or Greece, you know, and
go see a play in the amphitheater. It's
like
that would be nuts. Like some beings
have that ability.
>> I'm sure.
>> They can do that.
>> Yeah, that's probably, you know, where
that big wave in the mid-60s and 70s was
like that's, you know, you mentioned
this in your book as well, but like
there are these two types of beings.
There are the beings that
the inconsequential sort of passersby.
>> Yeah.
>> And then
>> Yeah, the transients as you call them.
And then the other ones who, you know,
are a little bit more intrinsically
linked to us.
>> I think so.
>> For one agenda or another, whether it's
our benefit or theirs, I don't know, but
yeah.
>> don't know, yeah. But it seems to be
that
we have so many hundreds of different
species or accounts or descriptions
>> Yeah.
>> throughout decades.
>> Thousands maybe, yeah.
>> And
yet the the guys that showed up around
when the abduction era started, the the
the gray Now there's a ton of different
kinds of gray aliens out there, which
gets confusing for people cuz when you
say a gray, we're not really sure. We
don't have a photograph, so we can't
really tell what which gray they're
talking about.
>> Are they naked? Do they have a suit?
What color suit? Are they tall? Are they
short? Big head? Small head? Lips? No
lips? Like all these
>> is true for the humanistic guys. There's
not just tall, blonde, you know, 8-ft
tall Calvin Klein model types.
>> No.
>> There's these other types as well.
There's some uh
>> The ones with Joe Simonton.
>> Right.
>> Who gave him the, you know, who wanted
the pail of water, he had the pancakes.
They were like Italian race car drivers,
he put it, in turtlenecks, you know, and
with like olive colored skin and like
>> Yeah, some have dark skin, some have
longer noses.
>> Yeah.
>> Um one account, I I can't remember who,
but they the the humanistic types were
tall and they had giant chins.
>> Right.
>> They were really skinny with these
chins.
>> Yeah, some native looking as well. Like
more
um yeah.
>> And then there's other blonde
human-esques, but shorter. Not not 7 or
8 ft tall.
Um with uh smaller eyes, a little bit
oriental.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
>> Higher foreheads.
>> Yep.
>> Uh Jesse Roestenberg saw them and uh
they also
>> Yeah, with the with the fish bowl
>> Right.
>> on their head.
>> Uh and uh this uh
truck driver, I think from Argentina,
was abducted by them for
the '70s. In the '70s.
>> There was like three of them that took
him and they they experimented on him.
It was quite horrific.
>> Yeah.
Yeah, and it sparked a whole nationwide
debate
whether we were being surveilled by
space beings.
>> Yeah.
>> So, there's different types of
human-esques. There's different types or
species. I don't know what to call them.
Of gray.
There's different types of praying
mantis.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, there's um they've been
reported since the '50s. I think even
Leonard Stringfield
>> That's right.
>> some some some of these praying mantis
types, but there's like white praying
mantises, there's uh shorter praying
mantises, there's like the really tall
ones that are super skinny.
>> There's ones that look more like insects
and others that look more like praying
mantises as well. Like there's like the
like the insectoids or
um
you know.
And they always those those ones are
really interesting to me
because
you know, there is a seeming hierarchy
to this even though it might only be
perceivably in some cases the case. I
don't think it's across the board, but
it seems like there is this hierarchy
where at least a portion of these grays
seem to be biosynthetically engineered.
Uh sort of these drones.
>> That's right.
>> And then, you know, the step up from
that is like the taller grays. And then
the step up from that is perhaps these
human looking ones. And then behind the
veil
>> Mhm.
>> are these like robed, tall, 8-ft tall,
terrifying, you know, insects that that
have the
most psychic capability, it would seem,
that can
>> That show up in DMT experiences that
>> They seem like the oldest race. Like
these are the ones that have been around
for a long time. They have the most
incredible technology.
>> Yeah, I like the There's a Canadian
story about this chick named Joyce
Halfrin who was in I think in the '80s,
I think in '89, she was abducted by a
couple of different uh praying mantis
types. But one type that were like 7-ft
tall, super skinny, little heads.
>> Oh, yeah, you you you talked about this
in your book. I did read this. Yes.
>> They took her up into a ship that they
called a light ship.
>> Mhm.
>> And the light ship, you know, she she
she they told her sort of a little bit
about their technology, and they said,
"Your space program is doomed to fail.
But one day your physicist will work out
how to use light to travel between
dimensions." They said that light at the
end of the tunnel that you see in a
near-death experience, we use that to
travel, and you're going to learn how to
do that without dying.
>> have to die to get there.
>> to die to get there
once you shake off old ideas about
space, time, and death.
>> Whoa.
>> Yeah. So, there there's these
dimensional aspect to these praying
mantis folks that really uh fascinate
me, but I'm not sure how we can
hierarchy I'm not sure about the
hierarchy.
>> Yeah, I don't think it's a perceivable
hierarchy. I don't think it is, and I
think we have a very limited
understanding due to the encounters that
we've had.
>> there's the reptiles.
>> Yeah, that's a whole other thing.
>> other thing.
>> Mhm.
>> But these four, I call them clades cuz
they are. They're clades of aliens, and
there and there's a reptilian clade,
there's the the insectalin clade,
there's the gray clade, and there's the
humanesque clade.
>> Yeah.
>> And they out of those clades
one type of humanesque being
and one type of
praying mantis or insectilian, which is
a praying mantis, and then one type of
grey, which appears to be the
biosynthetically created sort of drones.
>> Mhm.
>> Uh and then, you know,
they they appear to be
this loose confederation that is
impacting our society for reasons
unknown.
>> Right.
>> And that's uh
what I'm trying to figure out.
>> Yeah, and it's difficult because any one
of these could be masquerading as
another.
>> And
>> for all we know.
Which would make it impossible to
>> of genetic engineering.
>> Sure.
>> So, we don't know who's creating who.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, a lot of them use these little
greys. So, I think we're pretty safely
can say that the grey, g r a
y, alien is a biosynthetic drone.
>> Yeah, at least for the most part.
>> For the most part, yeah. Now, there are
greys that are biological, but these
drones that are used in the abduction
program and are used in a lot of other
areas, the reptiles have them, the the
humanesque
work with them, they're seen all the
time in abduction scenarios.
And the praying mantis is also. So,
whether they're all using the same, you
know, uh uh brand of grey alien or
they're all creating their own, we don't
know.
>> I would I would probably lean towards
that. I don't think I would
>> Right.
>> I would think it'd kind of silly to
impose capitalism on these things and be
like, "There's a whole factory. You can
just go purchase your own greys." I
think that
>> Take the P-26s.
>> Yeah, they probably are developing
whatever they need for the needs of the
mission is is my guess. You know, when
you look at these craft and you
you hear about a lot of them
like you said they're barren there's not
there's nothing going on there's no
photos hanging on the wall there's no
kitchen there's no toilet
>> Right.
>> they're you know for all intents and
purposes even Matt Brown talks about the
idea of them being
made to purpose or built to spec
>> Right.
>> and I would assume the technology which
is which are these guys they're also a
technology and I think they're also
built to spec depending on the mission
>> using our own genetics
>> Yeah.
>> to build them
>> and and what I always find interesting
is like but in whose image are they
built?
>> Mhm.
>> Do you know what I mean? Because there
has to be like that is that a random
choice that everyone's agreed on? That
like oh this is the least frightening
thing that we could use like cuz that
doesn't seem fitting.
>> Do we factor into their decision to
create greys that look the way they do
or are they just utilitarian and they
look the way they do because
>> Because there's a reason
>> the genetics for them for their own
purposes.
>> Yeah. Or are they based off something?
Are they built in the likeness of some
other being that turned out to be you
know maybe really optimal being for this
planet I don't know.
>> There's an interesting
Aaron Shults was abducted several times
in the 90s by grey greenish grey aliens
that look just like the greys but they
said their skin was slightly greener
and he said that they told him that they
were us from the future.
>> Yeah I I've heard that a few times.
>> Are we you know so are they creating
these greys because they're
in our image thank you.
>> Yeah I mean you know Dr. Michael Masters
has a whole literal dissertation on that
like he he wrote his thesis on you know
the cranial morphology of humans into
these greys and and it makes sense
>> and that might happen on several
different planets you know I like the
theory that they're from red dwarfs or a
system with a red dwarf is a very long
lifespan. And most of the red dwarfs we
know, you know, they're the sun is too
volatile for life, but that might not be
true in every case. And there's
trillions of suns out there, so maybe
that gray morphology is something that
all humanoid beings start to develop
into
>> as the sun dies.
>> over millions of years.
>> And maybe as you go underground, you
know, also your your eyes get larger and
and
>> The underground hypothesis is also a
good one.
>> Yeah, it's very interesting to to look
at their morphology specifically and
then try to reverse engineer from a
paleontology
standpoint or anthropology standpoint.
>> Was there
a plethora of alien planets where
insects became the dominant intelligent
life form and that and those praying
mantises really are insects?
>> Well, yeah. And and uh Stephen Bassett
mentions this as well, which I thought
was interesting cuz if you look at
lizards, the reptilians, you look at the
mantids, you look at the Nordics, what
do they all have in common?
You can find them all on Earth.
>> Right.
>> Are we all sharing DNA? Is this a cosmic
zoo that we're all this DNA pool that
we're all pulling from? Are we all just
part of the same family? I mean, they
are living here. We do see little
versions of all of these, you know.
>> It might turn out that on these alien
planets spread out across galaxies,
millions, billions, trillions of
life-giving worlds,
they all share the same
>> And we're sharing
>> basic
>> Yeah.
>> genetics.
>> I would That's my running theory for
everything is that these are all just
trillions of petri dishes uh that are at
different stages of evolution.
>> universe is using the same building
blocks
all over the place. And why not?
>> Yeah, I mean if if you were an advanced
species and you've gotten through the
trials of wanting to wage war and all of
that, you've gotten past all that. And
now you're at the point of your
existence where you want to go out and
spread life and and maintain and nurture
life throughout the universe.
Um, you first of all, you wouldn't uh,
take over a planet that's dead and live
underground. That seems useless. You
would go to a green nice sort of planet
with water or whatever the conditions
are. But you would find quickly that
those conditions don't actually suit
you. You would die from something. The
nitrogen levels, the radiation,
something's off. And so you would still
have to live in a suit. And so instead,
let's take the native species that lives
here. Let's Let's genetically modify it
with our DNA. Let's bring some stuff
from this planet, these little
cephalopods, change them a bit, put them
in this ocean. Take that, do this, and
do that everywhere.
>> You could do that.
>> But then at the same time,
I wouldn't do it I wouldn't waste my
time if I'm this really intelligent
being.
>> Right.
>> I would have AI do it.
>> Yeah, exactly.
>> And so I would put these Van Neumann
probes in the oceans and and let them
figure it out. And you know, maybe
there's a tripwire system there
eventually when these things ascend to a
higher consciousness or when they blow
themselves up. Then then, you know, we
send in the reinforcements and we're
like, "Hey, calm down." and
>> You could do some serious
uh, terraforming.
>> Yes, exactly.
>> Or
>> Panspermia or like like controlled
panspermia.
>> Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And all of that might
be going on. But and at the same time,
this
biosis that's happening all over the
universe
has the same
non-local essence that a morphogenetic
field, to use Rupert Sheldrake's
hypothesis,
is a non-local impulse
that
writes itself into being everywhere.
And so, all of the different conditions
on different planets would change that
morph that
chemical soup in in slightly different
ways.
>> I see.
>> But, the biosis, the impulse, the life,
the carbon, you know, we're we're one
our scientists are wondering, you know,
maybe silicon. Maybe, but that would I
would count that as a silicon-based life
form maybe a shadow biosphere that may
exist alongside. We don't know how many
overlapping bio biosis spheres there
are, but we do know that this one
appears to be sharing the same basic
building blocks. That's why abduct the
abduction phenomenon, that's why we can
crossbreed, that's why these creatures
look an awful lot like
uh they have Earth analogies.
>> Yeah, I mean, they're bipedal,
frontward-facing eyes, they have digits
on their hands. Like, these are all very
specific traits.
>> words, we're not starting from scratch.
And that and and scientists on our
planet right now, and why not? Why
wouldn't we think this?
Have started that somehow life began as
this freak accident, lucky lightning
bolt hits a warm pond, somehow this
chemical soup springs into life and
starts evolving using natural selection,
the conditions of our planet as we're
changing the conditions, and then that
you know, in this feedback loop, you
know, the the planet freezes over, then
the planet, you know, warms up, and and
this process begins, and it's been going
on for 4 and 1/2 billion years. But,
that same process could be going on, you
know, all of these different planets
together
sharing the morphic In other words,
an an evolutionary sort of um
you know, a new a new evolutionary level
is reached on one planet you can that
new
way of putting life together
non-locally spreads to all the other
planets.
>> Yeah like the 5-minute mile or whatever
that was or you know when one person
does it all of a sudden everybody can do
it.
>> And we could extrapolate that to include
the universe.
>> That's that's very interesting
hypotheses and you know why not? Um you
can go ahead and grab
>> I mean there seems to be
something.
>> One
um
one interesting part of your book
was a chapter based on the name of the
book The Watch Guard.
>> Mhm.
>> And
it was Donald I'm going to say this
wrong Shawcross in Slainsville West
Virginia 1982
a wonderful encounter
with a
all-knowing sort of creature that claims
to be
almost like a protector of this planet
or perhaps this AI system that I spoke
of or something that is keeping an eye.
Can you tell us a little bit about that
and why you chose that for the title of
the book?
>> Shawcross is a really interesting case
and um
I stumbled across these things looking
through old flying saucer reviews
and we're for we have that in common. I
there's nothing better than a than an
old UFO magazine. And if you seen the
ones from Sweden and yeah those are
fantastic. Um stories lost is a great
YouTube channel that they they do all
>> I'm familiar.
>> Yeah they do some really artistic
wonderful work in recreating
uh some of these lost cases that are dug
up in these old UFO magazines from
Sweden, from Norway, from Denmark, you
know, from all over the UK, really.
Um, but Shawcross is, I think, probably
found that through Preston Dennett.
Who is the goat.
As far as a as a xenologist goes. He's a
full-on I'm a moonlight xenologist. He's
a full uh tenured xenologist.
>> Yeah, I've got a stack of his books
right there. Like I'm
>> been at it for so many years. And And
really, if anyone is interested in sort
of trying to wrap their mind around the
phenomenon, it has to start with the
actual accounts that have been going on
for decades. And you can find through
people like Preston, through people the
old UFO journals, and all the
researchers out there that
looking for where the rubber hits the
road.
Cuz that's where we're going to find
uh answers, in in my opinion. Or at
least dots that we can that we can start
to to put together and see where that
takes us.
So, Shawcross uh he was a night shift
guy, and he was uh 4:00 in the morning
getting off. I think he was working at a
hospital or something.
And uh he lived in a trailer home in
Virginia, in the middle of nowhere.
And he's he's a wife and a kid. And uh
he comes home, he opens the door, and
his cats try to run out past him right
away. They're like tearing at the screen
door. He's like, "Whoa, what's going
on?"
So, he looks outside. He figures maybe
there's an animal out there.
And he sees what looks like a plane
going down in the field behind his uh
his house. So, he wakes up his wife. He
says, "Call the cops. There's going to
be a plane crash."
Um, and he runs outside, he jumps in his
car, and he there's an old dirt road
behind the field. He drives back there.
His car dies.
He doesn't think much of it. He gets out
with his flashlight. And he starts
walking through the weeds with his
flashlight and he comes across a pair of
silver boots. And he puts his flashlight
up and he thinks it's the pilot of the
airplane that just crashed. This is no
pilot. It's this guy with a silver suit
on. He's got a staff in his in his arms.
It's you know, like a 4-ft long staff
he's holding. He's got a helmet on. He
can't really see his eyes.
And
he's like, "Who Who
Are you okay? Who the hell are you?" And
the guy starts communicating
telepathically in Donald's mind.
>> Yeah, instantly.
>> Instantly.
Blew his mind. And he's like, "What
what" and he realizes this is a you
know, it is That's a flying saucer and
this is a dude from space. It's a space
being. And he goes, "Why haven't you um
made yourself known to the world?" And
the guy says, "We are known." And then
he's like, "Well, what what are you
doing here?" He says, "I'm the watch
guard."
And he's like, "What do you What do you
um
They start having this telepathic
conversation where this space being says
that we're
not taking care of our nuclear waste
properly, that we're screwing up the
planet, that there's we can do this much
better. And then he's like, "And I'll I
can show you how to do this."
kind of stuff. And then he starts
telling Donald about the hidden uh
technologies
that are hidden in the underneath the
Sphinx. He starts telling him about the
pyramids. They have this long
conversation that I listed in the
a version of it in the book because it's
rare that you get these sort of like
in-depth conversations with these space
people. They're usually pretty coy. And
this guy is too. But it changed Donald's
life, you know. As he's talking to this
space being
he suddenly realizes that his feet are
not touching the ground.
And he starts to panic because he's been
floating along with this guy toward the
craft, which was a like a little purple
light off of the distance when he
stopped parked his car, and now it's
sort of like a few feet away. And it's a
classic flying saucer with a big inner
tube around the side, and it's got
lights that are spinning around. And
it's got a purple light coming off of
it.
Donald's pissing himself. He's thinking,
this this is really bad cuz now this the
door starts opening up, you know, and
he's like, this guy's going to take me
on board the craft, and I'm going to
disappear and then never come back.
Um but his feet touch the ground, and
the guy starts walking up the ramp
alone, and he turns around and he goes,
I'll be back.
And he gets in the craft, and the door
closes.
Craft lifts up, and it takes off across
the mountains. And by the time he got
back to his his place, the cops had
shown up.
So he tells them the whole story. He's
burnt. The cop They interview the cop.
The cop said, yeah, one half of his face
was sunburned.
>> Yeah, his hand and his his face
>> from that purple light.
>> Right.
>> That had that had that had come out of
the the craft, whatever that was.
>> Yeah, close encounter of the second
kind.
>> Yeah, they didn't they didn't find any
radiation on Donald, although he was he
was burnt.
And the um
he the cops, of course, said, you know,
I don't know. The guy was obviously
freaked out when I showed up, but there
was nothing in the field. And I don't
know this guy. I mean, you know, he he
could be some nut.
But
uh that experience sent Donald changed
his life, you know, as it does with so
many
so many people. It changes It's just
everything just turned upside down for
him from that moment on. Um What was it?
Gray Barker, I think, came out and
interviewed him and said, this is the
most credible encounter case that I've
come across. A guy from New York came
down and gave him a full lie detector
test, which he passed with flying
colors. The
the uh New York guy said, well, he
believes it.
You know, whatever happened, he he
really believes it.
And uh and then Donald start got
obsessed with the pyramids and the
Sphinx and trying to crack that mystery
for for the rest of his life, you know,
what what's in there?
And uh
I call it and the the uh so I base I
call the the book the Watchguard because
I think that that's uh part
of what's going on, you know, I think
that these
this uh
small group, the this this one one group
of human-esque, this one group of
praying mantis, um
we don't know much about the reptiles,
but they keep showing up. And then the
Grays are this confederation that is
here
as a kind of uh
a Watchguard. I think that they are
guarding the gates to the cosmos.
I think that there's two
uh factions of Watchguards. I think
that's the alien faction and that the
human faction is also hiding the craft,
hiding the bodies,
rushing away the evidence, the trail
that leads to them.
>> And they're in cahoots.
>> And it's possible. It's possible. In
fact,
the more I look into this, the more I
can't see how it cannot be possible
that there is an intersection
of human and alien forces
that are working together in some
capacity
uh to manage
humanity's
access
to technologies that are literally
otherworldly
and that have the power
um
to destroy worlds.
worlds
Um and also
uh with that
included in that power is the power to
traverse the galaxy, to go anywhere, to
do anything.
And um
you know, we just don't quite have our
together enough to be able to
handle that kind of stuff.
>> directive.
>> And there's there's a little bit of a of
a prime directive going on there. There
has to be.
>> I always I always feel like, you know,
cuz when you you look at Star Trek and
you go the prime directive was, okay, we
don't interfere with planets that don't
have warp drive. That's always been the
case. And when they develop warp drive,
then it's like, welcome to the family.
And if you consider nukes being warp
drive,
which I don't,
>> Right.
>> um you know, I think that's when we
would have had contact. But the more I
>> Right.
>> the more that I look at this stuff, the
more that I realize that the prime
directive is don't interfere until they
get rid of the nukes.
>> Yeah.
>> Like that for me seems like the
threshold of finally, now you get it.
What have they been telling us
>> Yeah.
>> for the past 100 years? Get rid of your
nukes. What are you doing?
>> Right.
>> Don't play with this stuff.
>> Right.
>> You know, don't play with this energy.
Don't play with this that this is bad.
You're going to kill yourselves. You're
going to kill but it's happened before.
It'll happen again. Like all these
warnings
>> Yeah.
>> point to the prime directive
being we don't interfere
limited in a limited capacity at least
until they get rid of the nukes. And
then you look at JFK trying to do that
>> Mhm.
>> uh in some capacity right before he was
assassinated.
>> Yeah.
>> um
>> And that's what Shaw crossed that was
told by the watch guard, you know, you
don't know how to handle you're not
doing it right. You don't know how to
handle that stuff.
>> The second we get rid of those is
probably when we get the landings, you
know.
>> did say we use nuclear power, but but we
use it, you know, we know how to use it.
>> Yeah, not to kill people with. Yeah, get
rid of the nukes.
>> how to properly, you know, manage these
kind of incredibly powerful
technologies, and I think that nuclear
power is the entry exam
to a whole new level of um
subquantum kinetics, as Paul LaViolette
calls it, that will that will make the
atom bomb look like a water balloon at
at a 4th of July picnic. You know, I
mean, we're talking There's a guy named
Chukonov.
Um a Russian
scientist who studied plasma physics,
and he got really into ball lightning,
and bought any and create recreating it
in the lab.
And he says, Chukonov, and you can go to
Chukonov energy,
you know, so just Google a ball
lightning hopes and fears, Chukonov.
And he he has this
um theory that ball lightning is a
source of unlimited energy,
that it's a 2D macroscopic quantum
object,
that the has a 2D center and a
three-dimensional layer of electrons
around the shell, and those electrons
are constantly exchanging energy with
the quantum vacuum, and then you can use
that energy as an unlimited energy
energy supply, but but you can also turn
it into a weapon, which something he
calls a quantum photon bomb.
>> Sounds lovely.
>> Millions of times more powerful than an
atom bomb, because it taps into the
vacuum sort of non-local energy, and he
said you can make this in your garage
for 5,000 bucks.
>> Yeah.
>> The high-power microwave,
uh a crystal,
an electron gun, some other stuff, and
this
might be the keys to the
keys to the kingdom.
>> But I mean, you know, when you when you
say that
it makes me kind of thankful
that there are these watch guards on
both the human and the non-human side. I
feel like these are necessary
guardrails.
You know, cuz if if if we're working
it's either one of two options. If we
are working with
a non-human component here to
uh
I don't know, to gatekeep disclosure in
some capacity.
Then it's either one of two things.
Either one, there's like a malevolence
here and it's like a control system and
they want to do it for their own
benefit, their own agenda, and they have
a you know, they have an agreement with
the evil government and there's that's
that's one side. And the other side is
no, you'll kill yourselves and probably
kill more things that you can't even
see. You're hurting worlds that exist
within worlds that you can't even fathom
by splitting an atom. You have no idea
what you're doing.
Um and we need to babysit you and we
need a group of humans to understand
this and hey, here we'll give you some
tech to help you contain it because
yeah, you guys are uh you're not headed
in the right direction.
>> It can't be any other way.
>> Yeah.
>> Uh planets are more valuable than
people.
>> Sure.
>> This is a universe that is absolutely
chock-full of both.
So, we have life at all levels of
existence, but the planets themselves
are
jewels of the universe. So, protecting
those planets and would would be uh the
negentropic thing to do.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, it would be the thing that uh
>> There's nothing else.
>> Right. Like, why wouldn't you do that?
>> Yeah.
>> Why Why wouldn't you do that? Why would
And that I guess that gets into another
conversation, which is
the
thing that I
One of my biases or preconceptions was
that there were good aliens and bad
aliens.
But as you progress up the level of
technology
>> Who are the bad aliens?
>> Yeah.
That's That's exactly right.
>> Yeah. There's They're all There's
varying degrees of good and bad. I mean,
whatever you want to
put on a spectrum. If you want to do
something like that, it's just You zoom
out far enough and there is no good or
bad, but
>> Right. Right.
>> We're clearly having a negative effect
here.
>> Yeah. And And And that's okay.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, that's We're right where we're
supposed to be.
>> I agree.
>> And we're supposed to be sort of waking
up to this, you know, wider cosmos. It's
a freedom.
The cosmos, recognizing what kind of
universe we live in is a freedom. It's a
It's a You could call it a god-given
uh
freedom.
And And we have the right to understand
the universe we live in. And if we don't
understand the universe we live in, then
we're kind of like bulls in an invisible
china shop. We're smashing into
that we don't even know exists.
So that this is This is part of the
process.
>> Part of the process of you call the
ontocalyps.
Love that word.
>> Ontocalyps. Yeah, that's not my word,
but I love the word.
>> Sure.
>> Um yeah, it's uh
There's gentle, you know, ontocalypses.
>> Like what we're doing now.
>> Right. And And then there's not so not
so gentle.
That's it.
>> You know, you said something in this
book, which I which I love, a little
quote here.
Uh perhaps the greatest mystery in
modern history is that of alien
visitation.
The second greatest mystery is why we
are ignoring the greatest mystery.
I love that because it is true. It
sounds insane.
>> Yeah, yeah, yeah, it does.
>> To to to to have this pot of gold be
presented in front of you being like,
"Hey, this is
this is it. This is the the Ark of the
Covenant. This is the the the Holy
Grail."
>> Endless wonders.
>> Yeah, you have it all.
>> Yeah, all.
>> And then for us not to even want to look
at it.
>> Right. What's going on there?
>> And then also trying to recreate it
elsewhere.
>> Right.
>> It's like, "Hey, it's right here."
>> Gil Levin discovered evidence of life on
Mars in the '70s with the two Viking
rovers or the landers, you know, and
then and both landers, they did five
labeled release experiments on two
locations. They both came up positive
every single time. They ran the look
They ran the experiment several
different ways.
And they all came back positive for
microbial life on Mars. Now, NASA,
for whatever reason, decided not to
to go with that finding, you know, they
said, "Well, it must There must be some
other explanation."
And Gil Levin spent the rest of his life
trying to disprove his own theory,
saying, "Okay, what is the other
explanation?" And he ran all the
different chemicals and all the
different experiments and all the
different ways that they may have gotten
some sort of false positive out of the
fact that there is microbial life on
Mars right now as we speak.
I mean, that's the evidence, you know,
the the next step would be to send
another rover there and do some more
experiments and and see if you could
prove or disprove that idea, but we
haven't done that yet.
We have not sent another experiment. We
spent a lot of money going to back to
Mars. Not one of them
they said, "Yeah, let's follow up on
that crazy Gill 11 experiment." Not one
of them. And that tells me that there is
uh
resistance to the idea
that even there might be life on one
other planet.
>> Yeah, it makes no sense that you would
not go back.
>> panspermia, you know, it doesn't even
prove that there's life in in the in the
galaxy.
>> No, but it just it gives us hope. It
gives us
>> It's the possibility. It's one more dot.
>> Yeah.
>> But we haven't even made that dot. So,
when people come and they say disclosure
is coming next week,
ain't no way disclosure is
coming next week. We can't even admit
that there microbes on Mars right now.
>> Yeah. Yeah, it's going to be microbes on
Mars, then it'll be structures on Mars,
and then from there it'll be, you know,
you keep it away from Earth a little
bit, and then
eventually bring it home. But like e-
even to to the NASA point, like
I find it still strange that we
barely have photos of the Earth.
>> Right.
>> even know why that is. Like like I'm
always like, "Wait, what?" They're like,
"No, it's a composite." You're like,
"What do you mean it's a composite?"
>> Right.
>> Well, cuz like the satellites are not
far enough out to take a photo of the
Earth, so we have to like compose them.
And I'm like, "Okay." How many things
have we sent out of orbit into deep
space? Oh, quite a few. You didn't think
you might want to strap one camera, one
GoPro, one anything, and just take a
take a selfie?
>> Artemis.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, where's all the footage from
Artemis?
>> Yeah, Artemis 2. Well, they they took a
lot of moon photos. A ton of moon
photos.
>> There's a lot of moon photos that I
didn't see. I looked at the Artemis
photos. These are really crappy.
>> Yeah, there's a lot of the phone ones
were pretty good, actually. The ones
from the the iPhone.
>> The guy from the iPhone has the better
photos that
>> Yeah.
Yeah, that was an incredible mission.
When you when you look at that, you're
like, "Oh my god." Slingshotting around
the moon.
>> Yeah, I mean, it was
amazing. You know, but where where's is
>> Yeah, there's a there does seem to be
like stuff that I don't know for what
reason, but they don't want to take
photos of and I
>> Valentine
>> Yeah.
>> You know, they did that in the '90s.
>> Yeah, the the I mean, the blue pearl
was, you know, how old is that photo?
And that's like still to this day like
>> over 50 years and it's
>> maybe the best photo we have, yeah.
>> Blue blue marble
>> The blue marble, that's right, yeah. Um
and, you know,
I don't know. I don't know what the
reasoning there is. I do find it
suspicious for some reason. I don't know
what the reason is, but like part of me
goes to, well, maybe there's around
our planet that's hanging out.
>> Right.
>> And that they're just like, that's going
to be a lot of airbrushing. We don't
want to do that, you know what I mean?
Like
>> Absolutely.
>> That might be that might be it, but um
>> They don't want people to be thinking in
that direction. Yeah. I don't want to
encourage that kind of those those kind
of inquiries.
>> Yeah, not yet. That's not part of the
plan.
>> It's not part of the plan because
once you make that leap, then you
discover that there is this other
technological society, more than one,
but at least one, that's been building a
bridge of their own technology to Earth.
And we've been building our own
technology, and we're sort of and and
there's a gap there that we can then
bridge with our technology to reach
their technology, which would be a
complete transformation
of the way we
organize
and run this planet. You know, and not
just energy, but but in all areas of um
you know, what I like to call the the
human control system.
And the human control system is deeply
embedded in this in our in our in our
system. It's, you know, it starts with
school. It's it's media. Uh it's the
government. It's the military. And the
the heart of the human control system
is language. Language is the baseline in
operating system for all of the other
control systems. It's the first thing we
learn, it's the first thing that was
downloaded into our heads, and it's the
bridge that we use, and the only bridge
we use to communicate with each other is
symbolic. We don't have any other way of
reaching into my head and pulling out
thoughts and delivering them to you.
It's through this language, and that's
been crafted as a control system that
can be superseded and outgrown.
>> Of course, yeah, it's it's it's the best
modality that we have
>> Right.
>> for communicating. Um other than perhaps
like
memes and like videos and yeah.
>> that's part of the language. You can
speak with architecture. You can speak
with dancing. But it's all symbols.
>> Yeah.
>> And
>> all represents things.
>> represents
>> Exactly. And And the thing itself would
be the thought forms, would be the
literal experience. So, telepathy is not
like mental radio.
>> No, it's
it's emotion, it's feeling, and
>> It's experience.
>> Experience, yeah.
>> Like if you went to a concert and you
saw this amazing concert and you there
was a great moment there, and you know,
you met someone you hadn't seen in
years, and you wanted to share that with
me, you could download that experience
with all its thoughts and feelings and
and a 360 degree, not just your point of
view, but all points of view. Cuz that
exists, that information you could share
that with me instantaneously.
>> Mhm.
>> And that is real communication that that
breaks
the the barrier.
>> Yeah, and it's more it's it's simpler,
yet more sophisticated.
>> Right, right.
>> Um you you have a and more specific,
like you you you know, I
I liken it to like a if a caveman is
sitting on the edge of a cliff and
looking out
at everything, and there's a rainbow,
and there's a maybe a double rainbow and
there's like a a sunset or whatever it's
just the most beautiful thing he's ever
seen.
And you know, I write a book about this.
I write a book about the scene. It's a
900 page book describing everything down
to the smell down to the sound of the
animals and the the homeostasis rhythm
and everything is just described
perfectly in this book. But the caveman
looks at it and he just goes
right?
And like that communicates way more to
me. Like what who's more intelligent?
Right? Me who wrote this like giant
novel
or this guy who just goes
and you get it.
>> And Jim Sparks who was taught on the
ships how to how to condense language
into the into a symbol the size of a 50
cent piece and he said there would be a
whole novel of information in just the
symbols that were embedded in this
tiny sort of
right? symbology the size of
>> Like a sigil.
>> Exactly that contained information that
you could then download sort of
instantaneously.
>> Sure, yeah.
>> That's incredible.
>> Sacred geometry and whatnot.
>> That is the next level to
society to communication to sharing
information technology
and that's a transformative event for
all of us and I think that that is one
of the things that we're being sort of
you know shied away from that's why psi
phenomena
that's why psi phenomena refuses to be
investigated or science refuses to
investigate
all of all of that stuff. It's it's more
than just flippant ignorance of woo-woo
stuff.
We're talking about
border work that's being done to guard
the fortress
of society.
>> Yeah, cuz once that opens it doesn't
close.
>> And it's opening.
>> It's opening.
>> right now. I want a cup of tea.
>> Yeah, let's go let's take a little
break. All right.
Should I record this?
Yeah.
>> It it's
it can synchronicity can change your
life. But opening yourself up to
synchronicity is um
is a technology.
>> Mhm.
>> And it can it can be it can be learned,
you know? It can be
>> And I think that that's what the Golden
Dawn was doing and I think that that's
what some of these
magic with a K sort of um
efforts were imbuing in people. We were
talking about this last night and that's
what I was thinking about last night
when we were after we left. Um
that we're um
probing the outer garments of something
that isn't science and it isn't
religion. It's something that both
religion and science have been
>> fundamental.
>> Right. That that and there's a there's a
fundamental
uh revolution in how we can understand
the universe that will lead to
technologies to how to utilize this
fundamental essence that you were just
talking about, which is defined as love.
>> Yeah, I have um
been recently in the last
well, last few years, but more
specifically
in the last few months
implementing
um synchronicity engines in my life.
So, I will introduce random probability,
you know, whether it's bibliomancy,
whether it's I have apps. So, like that
sends me a word every hour on the hour.
A word that I might not know, like a new
word.
>> Right.
>> And um and sometimes that'll be
incredibly
synchronous.
>> Okay.
>> Um
>> Neat.
>> Just for fun.
>> Yeah, give us one.
>> Verism.
>> Mhm.
>> That's right now. That's the word that I
just got.
>> What's it mean?
>> A style emphasizing realism and truth in
art.
>> That's that'll be the the the name of
the new technology.
>> Verism.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
So, yeah, that is um I do I do believe
that synchronicity plays an important
part if you want it to and if you let
it, I think. And that's something that
I've learned through my personal
experiences and
it can be debated. And what's beautiful
about synchronicity, what I really find
genuinely like
beautiful as a magician,
>> Mhm.
>> there is a duality
of uh the nature of synchronicity
because on one side it's coincidence.
>> Mhm.
>> And on the other side it's just
coincidence with meaning.
Right? It's we're talking about the same
thing.
>> Right.
>> You're talking about coincidence. I'm
talking about synchronicity.
We are literally saying the same things.
>> Right, right.
>> Oh, you wouldn't believe this happened,
whatever. It's the same thing we're
talking about.
>> Right.
>> Yet the interpretation of the
information
>> Mhm.
>> changes everything.
>> Because of the observer effect.
>> Correct. But you're going about your
life
>> Right.
>> um proving to me that it's just chance.
>> Mhm.
>> And and that will affect your life in
this way.
>> And that's what you'll get.
>> Yeah, and I'm going into it thinking I
don't think it is. I think there's
something more to it.
>> Right.
>> But statistically on paper, they're
going to look identical.
>> Right.
>> You know, they'll both see like I mean
when someone describes a synchronicity
to me,
I'm like that's the definition of a
coincidence.
>> Right.
>> It's the very definition of a
coincidence.
>> why it's so easy to hide.
>> Which which is the beautiful duality of
it is that this skeptic physical
materialist reality
>> Right.
>> can coexist
>> Mhm.
>> next to this
you know, fringe esoteric, spiritual,
whatever reality
and they can coexist together forever
and you can live happily
>> Right.
>> if you're down here or down here, you
might as well take the more magical road
and live a more magical life in my
opinion, which is why belief
>> is the most powerful thing in the
universe, you know.
Cuz that synchronous moment
one it opens the door for it to be
shared
and create a shared experience. Like
when you're doing your magic and you
have a moment which is um
beyond your ability to comprehend, but
it's a moment that happens with everyone
and then this egregore is created
through the
co-mingling of conscious observer
experiences together. You're creating a
third thing. Whereas chance
that'll never happen.
>> Yeah.
>> That won't happen.
>> Yeah.
>> It's cut off at the base.
>> Yeah.
>> Even though it's the same experience,
you know, and so and and that
that fostering of belief is what opens
the door to this new technology. So we
actually need the belief as a component
and belief can be used as a control
system.
>> Sure.
>> Cuz you can believe that you'll go to
hell unless you, you know, pay pay off
the priest, you know, it's so
>> Yeah.
>> with your
whatever
>> 16 Hail Mary's or whatever.
>> Yeah, and they they were even like
literally paying them off. They were
buying their sins back in the day, which
is why Luther Martin Luther started the
printing with the printing press tacking
that up onto the church doors.
Saying you this is what's going on here
and that was the beginning of the end of
the church, which is why they hated the
printing press. They loved it at first
and then they hated it because they were
exposing the control system that the
church really was. And now science has
taken over. Now we believe in science.
Well, I trust the science.
And that becomes a control system.
>> becomes a religion.
>> Right. And And the but but the belief is
the the common thread that moves through
all of that including
the belief in things like synchronicity,
things like psi, Gertrude Schmeidler
with her sheep and goats. You know, the
sheep were had a much higher chance of
experiencing psi phenomenon whereas the
goats they were they were the
non-believers. They were
they had a much lower
chance of seeing or or experiencing
anything like that.
>> And it And what's beautiful once again
is that feeds into confirmation bias.
>> Mhm.
>> So again, we're met with where the
skeptic approach can make perfect sense.
>> Yeah.
>> And so can the Exactly. So they're both
coexisting and every
argument you have, the other side will
have an equal and opposite argument. The
only metric
you can have
is the outcome.
And so when you have somebody living
their life in a way that favors
synchronicity, that favors
perhaps a little bit more of a magical
existence and you see that the outcome
of their life is them being genuinely
content. And I'm not talking about
success. I'm not talking about
manifesting a yacht. I'm talking about
looking at someone and realizing
>> Yeah.
>> is leading
an objectively
>> Right.
>> happier life or at least a more content
and fuller life than the person who is
sort of in a
curmudgeony attitude, being skeptical
about everything and proving that
everything that this person did, well,
that's just BS. It's all chance. Yeah,
but what's not chance is that this
person
is living with a full heart.
>> Right.
>> And this person is really looking
desperately for meaning in their life.
>> Well said. I like that a lot.
>> But they can coexist.
>> You can't logic your way out of it.
>> Yeah, but you can you can you know, you
can create that illusion that like yeah,
they're the same thing, of course. But
that's the beauty of it is that they do
>> Yeah.
>> You can prove one with the other, sure.
>> But tying yourself to a to a
materialist scientific viewpoint and
saying I'm open to this stuff, I just
haven't seen it because you're going to
have to
>> Yeah.
>> you know,
use using logic you're you're never
going to make the leap.
>> Yeah.
>> There's only one way to make the leap,
and that's to make the leap.
>> Sure.
>> Yep. Yeah, and you can't package
>> Right.
>> anything into like you can't take
something from another dimension uh and
then
try to package it into this one and try
to explain it away with the tools that I
have developed in this dimension. It's
just not how that works.
>> We have human tools that developed here
on Earth for human ends, and we're
trying to use these tools to explore
this alien architecture that we have
little hope of grasping.
>> Yeah. Yeah, this is the tool.
>> Yeah.
>> Um
I'd like to if you're up for it, I'd
like to speak about
your encounter.
You know, um
you've not talked about it much, and
it's something that's deeply
>> I don't talk about it at all.
>> at all.
>> Yeah, I I told um
I've had a couple of people that I
respect and admire ask me to talk about
it on different podcasts, but um you
know, I am
I I can't talk about it um
especially through the lens of a
interface of a microphone and a camera.
It's not something that
I
could share
uh unless I was
sitting across from a human being
who um
who I trusted and uh
um
was genuinely uh
um
open
to the uh
to the possibilities. And I don't even
know what all the possibilities are.
I really don't. And I haven't talked
about it
at all. I um
I won't say that it's sacred. It's
sacred and it's profane. It It marks a
intersection
in my life
that
that there was no going back from.
I didn't ask for it. I didn't
have any concept of any uh
um
of anything that existed outside of the
little world that I had been
perfectly content to believe was
perfectly real, you know? And the
mundane world is beautiful.
And there are, you know, magical things
about it.
There's a lot of magic in the world.
Um but I just wasn't prepared.
I just wasn't prepared
for for
for any of it, you know?
And it changed my life.
Changed my life.
Changed my entire life.
The things that
uh
I was interested in, you know, like like
uh like women and
art and success, none of those things
mattered anymore.
And um and I didn't know what mattered.
I didn't know what did.
I mean, I had my daughter. I had I had
the core, you know, reality that's um
that I cared that I cared about and and
probably if you if it's possible cared
more about
after
afterwards. But yeah, from one day to
the next I got to take this jacket off.
It's getting hot in here.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah, okay.
>> So, 2011.
>> 2011, yeah.
I
was married for
nine something years.
I was getting a divorce.
Living alone.
Uh my daughter was with her mom.
It was summer.
It's probably August. Probably about
this time of year.
And um
I I can't sleep. I've had this problem
my whole life.
Uh
And so, I have this ritual when I wake
up in the middle of the night. I'd
usually
get a couple hours and then I'd be up in
the middle of the night.
Um and a lot of the times I just
wouldn't be able to get to sleep.
And
I was taking homeopathic stuff
which didn't really seem to do anything
for me. Wasn't taking melatonin cuz I I
didn't like it.
Um
but you you get up in the middle of the
night and get out of bed. The doctor
said, you know, don't lay in bed.
Get out of bed. Go read. So, this was a
ritual that I would have.
Uh
get out of bed, grab a book, and lay on
the couch.
And so it's, you know, probably uh 2:00
or 3:00 in the morning. I don't I don't
know. I I didn't I didn't bring my phone
with me.
Don't look at the phone. Don't look at
an iPad.
Um, you know, the blue light and all
that stuff. So, uh
I'm laying on my couch.
So, I've got a window here and the couch
goes this way.
And uh and I've got a uh
I've got a ceiling that looks like this
with some beams on it.
And the the beams are are running this
way and my my ceiling the the uh the
widow's peak thing is over there. And
I'm reading
my book and uh
um
out of the top of my eye, I see a fuzz,
a fuzzball, a ball of fuzz.
Maybe the size of a um
uh baseball.
And it's fuzzy.
And uh I'm looking at it and going,
"That's like an out-of-focus spot."
What the is that?
And then the spot starts getting bigger.
And it starts
leaving the wall
and floating through the air
as this
moving ball of fuzz. And as it gets
closer to me,
uh it starts to
resolve into these three
shapes.
They're about maybe the size of a large
dinner plate each of them.
Maybe like that big. So, there So,
there'd be like these three butterflies
shapes
without a head.
It was like a snow angel if you made a
snow angel in the snow. These
things that look like that.
Just like that. And there's three of
them.
The middle one, its wings are connected
to the two outer ones. And this this
this this thing is coming towards me.
And I'm thinking
I'm going to die. This is what happens.
This is what happens when you die.
this is really bad.
Uh and this these things starts coming
down and I have a coffee table that runs
this way.
And
I see that these butterflies are made
out of like laser thread.
Green thread, red thread.
And then green and then red. They're
about maybe a quarter inch apart. So
they're the outline of these three
butterflies.
Uh and in the center is this little baby
butterfly in in each center.
And in those centers, the two threads,
one green, one blue one red
are
forming geometric patterns in the in the
middle. And the each middle is
different. So there's
each core is forming three different
geometric shapes. The shape would last
for about half a second and then change.
And then the little threads would start
weaving again and then they'd form
another perfect geometrical
shape that I'd never seen before in my
life. They weren't like triangles. They
were like complex geometrical
mathematical symbols in each one, three
of them, all going at once at different
times.
And
I'm thinking
obviously that these are what happens is
they're coming and take me away. And I I
have
all I feel is terror. 100%
unbridled fear is running through me.
I'm not jumping up.
I'm not running outside. I'm not
yelling. I'm frozen in fear.
And these things, they stop and they
hover over my coffee table and they just
sit there.
And they're blasting out these
alien geometries.
And um I'm panicking.
And nothing nothing happens. They just
sit there. They're just sitting there.
And I'm laying like this and looking at
these damn things and I'm my I'm just
uh sweating and absolutely terrified for
frozen in fear. And you know, it was
only later, like
days later, that I was like,
"The was I doing?" You know, why
didn't I like, you know, like do
something, swap them away or yell at
them or, you know, like all the things
that you would normally do. I didn't do
any of that stuff and
uh I we just sat there for for a while
and then
they started moving towards me.
And I the panic shot through me again. I
would freak out. And uh they stopped and
they backed off.
I don't
know what the what the is going on.
What are you guys doing? What the
are you and what the is happening?
And then my heartbeat would start
slowing down because they weren't doing
anything. They're just sitting there.
So eventually, I was my breathing would
kind of return to normal and then they'd
start creeping forward again and then I
would panic again and then they would
back off again.
And this maybe took 45 minutes
of this.
>> That's such a long time.
>> It's beyond a long time, especially when
I mean, just it's only later. I know
that I
we'll get there.
So
these things eventually start creeping
towards this again. This dance is going
over and over and over. I freak out.
What the are you doing? What the
are you? What is happening? They
back off. They wait. I calm down. They
move forward. Over and over till finally
I'm just sort of like, okay, well,
they're they're not doing anything and
they they start and I keep my breathing
under control enough and they start
moving over my body. So now they're
right in front of me, hovering, you
know, over my mid midsection, you know,
maybe around about my knees.
And they're over my body now and now I'm
looking at them head-on.
And their little things are going off,
the three of them, and they're making
these incredible patterns and they're
just sitting there. They're just showing
me. They're showing me these insane
alien geometries in two colors that look
three-dimensional and you know, the the
the things themselves are 2D.
They don't have
depth. They're just these flat
alien interdimensional butterflies and
they're sitting there and they're making
these alien symbols at me.
And I start to calm down a little bit.
And I'm thinking to myself, I Now, if
this is a hallucination, it's a hell of
a hallucination because there's no way
that my brain could be coming up with
these patterns that I swear to God I
have not and I had time to look at them
and go, what are those things?
What what are they are are they Is it a
language? Is it a symbol? What what But
but what they were and I tried drawing
them later and I couldn't.
Cuz I I couldn't wrap my mind around
what they were. I knew they were
mathematical, they were perfectly, they
were precise, they were in these two
laser thread colors and they had depth.
Some of them had depth.
This went on for quite a while.
Uh and then they started moving towards
my face.
And I panicked again. And now I'm
thinking, "Oh, this is what this was
about. These want to get in me.
They want They're They're coming They're
coming at me."
They're They want to like
invade my body. And then now I really
start freaking out. Like then I was
like, "Oh my god, this whole thing was a
dance. They're a hypnotizing me. It
doesn't matter what those little crazy
symbols are. That was just a hypnotize
me to get me into the state like a
rabbit, you know, like the infrasound
that a tiger makes. They're just like
lulling me into the sense that they were
just going to overwhelm me." And then I
really panicked. And I thought I was
right all along. This really is what
happens when you die. They're just
taking their time about it.
And they stopped.
And they backed off.
And they sat there. And they
kept doing what they were doing.
And now I'm thinking, "Okay,
they do want to get in me,
but they want permission.
They want me to say yes.
And they're not going to come in
until I let them."
And I was like, "Guess what? That's
never happening.
That is not a thing that is going to
happen between us."
And they just sat there and did their
thing. And I'm like, "You know, we can
do this all night." Now, I'm being
flippant about it now, but at the time
it was terror. And I wasn't speaking. I
was thinking these things in my mind.
Like, "This This can't be. I know.
no."
Uh and then and then they start coming
towards me again. And then we start
I panic, they back off again. And this
goes on for probably another
half an hour, 45 minutes. Yeah.
This was not going away.
This was not a fuzzy
hallucinatory,
you know, experience. This was This was
wide awake in the middle of the night.
>> Like you and me right here.
>> If this is real, then that was real. I
don't know what else to tell you. If
this was real, then that was real.
Um
and they were not going away.
They just were not giving up. I mean, it
just went on for ever.
And so
finally
I was exhausted.
Uh the
the kind of fear that would go through
me wasn't just, you know, like
freaking out. It was like sharp.
I could feel it in my skin.
It was the kind of hormonal release in
my body that hurt my skin, like it was
like waves
of uh of of fear and adrenaline.
That That was a physical sort of My skin
was hurting. I remember thinking, "Ah,
this hurts every time these
things come at me."
And that panic runs through me. It's
painful.
And but eventually I just
I think they wore me down.
I think they they
and and and I was
and I was I came to the conclusion
that if these
guys were here to hurt me or do
something
nefarious
that they wouldn't be, you know, being
so polite about it. They They wouldn't
be so um They obviously wanted me to
calm down.
I mean, it took a long time for that to
sink in.
But finally, it sunk in.
They want me to calm down.
They're not They're not
I'm going to have to take the leap and
say that they're not here to hurt me.
So I said, "Okay."
In my mind,
I said, "Okay.
Do what you got to do."
And just like they heard me, they just
started they started coming in. They
started coming at me. And they started
got closer and they got closer and they
got closer. And when they got about to
here, I closed my eyes.
And I felt the threads
pass through me. I felt those vibrate
vibratory laser-like threads pass into
my skin,
pass into my bones, into my
body.
And I could see them.
I could see these threads and they felt
like they were elongating. So, they
didn't just pass through like that. They
passed through and then they elongated.
So, they kept passing through. Like, you
know, they just got longer and longer
and longer and they were passing through
me and passing through me.
And this is really weird.
And then I um
got an erection.
This rush of hormones went through my
body, gave me a hard-on. And this flood
of like good feeling, you know, this
relaxation, this release, this And it
felt like hormones being released in my
body. Like like things were the
chemicals were sort of being unleashed
or released in in my body.
And um
And that's the last thing I remember.
I my consciousness
drifted off.
It just it took and I and I don't It
wasn't like turn on out a light. It was
just sort of like getting dimmer and
dimmer and and thoughts, you know, just
drifted off.
And I remember climbing into bed.
And I remember
thinking that the sun was coming up.
And um
I could still see the afterburn of those
creatures in my mind because because I'd
been staring at them
for so long.
Uh
and I'm and I remember thinking, yeah,
that's probably why cuz as as my eyes
were closed climbing into bed, I don't
remember getting off the couch.
But I remember climbing into bed.
And still seeing the red and green
threads in in my in my sort of afterburn
sort of eyeballs and and thinking that
that was why and then I fell asleep.
And then
I never woke up.
The next day I was somebody else.
>> Just like that?
>> Just like that.
Just like that. Lights out on that life,
lights on.
And I will, you know, I wasn't left with
anything. I was just left with
What's that?
What's that? What the was that, you
know? The next day I was just off on you
know
I'm trying to figure out what the hell
had happened to me. You know?
I don't know I don't know what the hell
was that.
So years later
um
Uh
Edgar Mitchell put out his really thick
experience or book.
Uh where they interviewed something like
3,500 different experiencers and they
put that all together. It's a great
book, the free book.
>> Yep.
>> And
uh according to their surveys, the
number one
reported encounter is with an energy
being.
And the number two reported encounter
was with some form of gray alien.
>> And the number one place it happens is
in your bedroom.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
The uh
the um
That made me That was interesting, you
know.
That uh I think that came out in 2017 or
something like that uh 2018 like that.
>> Yeah, it was the biggest study done of
like experiencers and it's what showed
that they were mostly benevolent as well
and
>> Yeah. Yeah. And the human the
human-esque types are also almost
equally reported with the gray.
>> Mhm.
>> Um there's a lot of different kinds of
grays um
and this uh this energy being thing uh
you know, I've uh there's there's orbs,
there's intelligent plasmas
but I have yet to
>> to find these guys.
>> these guys. Uh so,
if anybody out there knows anything, I'd
love to know.
>> What So, you said, you know, obviously
this changed you. Um
from one day to the next you were just a
completely different person. Did you
feel
in any sense different not because of
the sort of
traumatic
experience of of of witnessing something
so insane
but did you feel changed perhaps because
of something they left you?
>> I don't think so.
>> So,
>> I've asked myself that. I didn't get any
psychic powers.
>> No downloads.
>> I didn't get any downloads.
>> None that you know of.
>> I I uh
you know.
>> So,
>> I don't know I would I I was I went
through a period where I was really uh I
felt like I failed somehow like it was a
test and I failed because I nothing
happened. They didn't come back.
They didn't uh you know, I I wanted
after that, you know, I wanted answers.
I wanted them to come back so I could,
you know, try to try to get some more
information.
>> Do you have any dreams about them or
just nothing?
>> Nothing.
>> So strange how it's so one-sided.
>> Very one-sided.
>> But is it though, right? Cuz like
sure, okay, maybe
they got what they needed from you
somehow cuz clearly they wanted
something from you.
Like
that
>> They wanted in.
>> They want, right? And they and they they
but they needed your consent.
>> They did.
>> Um
but what it left you was
a deeper sense of reality. I mean,
you've
it
it completely changed your outlook on
on everything, right? And and maybe
perhaps due to the experience
that you had trying to build yourself up
after that, but even so
>> shattered my entire life.
Yeah.
No, I mean, nothing made sense anymore
after that.
And I and I I was disrobed of my
illusions that I thought I knew what the
hell was going on around here. I don't.
I don't know a damn thing. I don't know
anything.
And I and that has never left.
I just uh
don't know anything.
And that's a nice place to start, you
know?
A really interesting place to start.
I don't have the tools to to navigate
whatever that was. Uh we don't have any
answers.
We don't We can We can try to land One
of the one of the hardest things is to
to
resist the temptation to land on
something,
You know, just say, "Well, these were
angels, you know?" And then find
religion.
Um you know, or or or any any of the
other, you know, um
sort of
narratives that I could invent and then
I could build a whole dots around them
number of different narratives, but I I
don't have any narratives, you know?
But it did lead me to try to sort of
Well, what it did
was show me that the and the the first
thing that I found I I talked to a
psychic.
I mean, I didn't believe in psychics.
But I've talked to one. Uh
I talked to all kinds of different
people and I real and and and Leslie
Kean
her book UFOs, Generals, Pilots, you
know, talk about that that book is from
2011. That book was brand new. Just came
out.
I snatched that up and and that was um
a something concrete that I could
hang my hat on. Go, "Okay, something's
going on here.
Something is happening, you know?" And
and that led me down the road and that
it was the closest thing I could find
to
of a rabbit trail that would lead to
some sort of answers about what kind of
universe we're really living in. And
that really became the question
for me. What kind of universe is this
really? What's really going on here?
Come on.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah, I'm sure a lot of people in your
position that have had these
earth-shattering
experiences that are so deeply personal
that even saying them out loud feels
like
you're taking the air out of it, you
know? Um
but I'm sure a lot of those people like
yourself have found
solace in
works like Leslie Kean's or even the
2017 New York Times article. Think of it
what you will,
but it provides, like you said, some
level of concretizing
an experience that lives only
in this one person's
you know, rearview. And in their mind,
it doesn't exist out here anywhere, and
you can't you can't read on it, you
can't look for it. And then when you
have something like that, it's got to
it's got to be a good feeling.
>> You you have, you know, dots that you
can put together. You have other people
that have had these similar types of
experiences.
And that's the only reason that um
that I would uh
talk about it, you know, is to try to
get offer back some of the solace that I
took when I started reading
and listening
to other people's experiences
that happened to them
that they went through that also changed
their lives in
all kinds of different ways.
And I think that it's time for us
to uh
to make it okay
to talk about this stuff. I don't have
any answers. I have no no clue except
for I know what happened to me and I
know what I saw. And other people do,
too.
>> Did you face um
Did you talk about this at all when this
came out?
>> No.
>> You just you just kept it to yourself.
>> I told my daughter.
>> Wow, and that was it.
>> Yeah, I told her briefly.
She was young.
>> And even then you're kind of like
pulling your punches cuz you don't want
to overwhelm anyone, you don't want
anyone to think, you know, you're you've
lost the plot or
>> Yeah, then I I told a friend, pretty
good friend of mine, um
that was a bad idea, so I kind of cut
that off.
>> Did they Did they make fun or was it
>> don't know what to do with it.
>> Right.
>> You know, you just you just don't As
soon as you start As soon as I started
talking about it, I was like
this is not This is This was a mistake.
>> Right.
>> I don't know, you know, this is not
Nobody's prepared for any anything.
>> Yeah, what are you supposed to do with
that, right?
>> Yeah, right, right. I needed to You
know, I wanted to You know, this is
right after it happened. I needed to
>> Of course.
>> share it with somebody, but that was a
bad idea.
I told I told my sister
>> I wouldn't say it was a bad idea. It's
probably a good idea, but probably just
yeah, maybe not timely.
>> I told my sister, she came over um
you know,
her her birthday was in August, so we
were celebrating her birthday.
And then
uh
Yeah, that was one of the last times we
we uh we hung out together, you know,
and she died a few months after that.
But that was sort of one of the
She was She was a little more, you know,
she I grew up with her, so she was a
little more
I got a little more out of that
interaction.
>> More receptive?
>> Mm. Yeah. But you know, you quickly
learn that this is not something that
that you're
that's going to help You're not You're
not going to get any answers, and you're
not and you're not not going to make you
feel any better.
>> Right.
>> by sharing this, you know.
>> You might just like push people away.
>> Yeah.
And that's you totally understand It's
totally understandable.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> That rationality that you have about it
is something that I found in most
experiencers that I hold in high
conviction
is the sense of
I get it.
You're going to think I'm crazy. I get
it. I would, too. And that is said by
everybody who's had this experience. If
I were you, I wouldn't believe me.
>> Yeah, there's no way you can believe
>> Ex- Exactly.
>> It's It's
>> But that's also for me like a a really
that increases my conviction on it
because that's how I would be too. I if
I try to imagine something like that
happening to me, I'd be like, "How do I
even?"
And especially
you know, people know me as a magician.
They're going to think, "Oh, this is
just some trick or something." Like how
would I even communicate that? And and
and the need to want to communicate it
and be understood and connect with
people is probably really dire.
>> I had to write it down.
>> Yeah.
>> I had I had to write the book. The
book's not for
even people who are alive right now. The
book is for the future. The book is for
when we can understand these kind of
experiences in a better light. And I'm
hoping that it's helpful to people in in
in the present,
you know? But we really we're we're
laying the groundwork for a new ontology
that is coming.
And we will get there. And we're getting
there now.
And every voice that we we can use
everybody's voice right now. We really
can. We're This is I was saying earlier
that, you know, understanding what kind
of cosmos we really live in is a
freedom.
Freedoms are never granted. They're
taken.
Every time in history.
Freedom of speech, you know, the freedom
of equality, these are taken.
They're never granted.
Disclosure is not going to be granted to
us. We are going to take it.
And we're going to do it by sharing
these kinds of experiences with each
other and building the bridge to what
the real world looks like. It's the only
way to do it.
It's what the It's what the watch guard
said.
Revolt.
Yeah. Yeah, you can build the world, you
know? A revolution can be done.
>> Huh.
>> You need to do it yourself.
>> Could you draw
what the being looked like just so I can
show the audience and give them a loose
idea of of perhaps
>> You just have to imagine that there's
three of these.
>> Yeah.
>> This guy helped me cut off.
Basically, take these guys.
Oh, this is all up.
>> I took that.
So, they're like concentric
lines.
>> Alternating.
One red thread.
One green thread. Laser thin. Like
threads.
Like threads made of lasers.
>> Were they physical or did you see
through them?
>> They were physical. You couldn't see
through the threads.
>> Right. So, they were They were like
dense. They had a density to them.
>> They had
>> Whoa.
>> laser quality to them.
Definitely.
>> They were glowing threads like
>> Yeah.
>> Wow.
And green and red, too. That
>> Red.
>> That's got to be such a strange visual
distortion seeing threads so closely
together like some illusion like
How many would you say of these threads
in in sort of in this concentric
pattern?
>> I would just be guessing, but
>> Hundreds or or dozens?
>> Uh yeah, yeah, I I would you know
I would just be guessing.
>> You could count them if you had to.
If I had to count them. Yeah.
But there may be um
anywhere between 50 and
75.
>> Okay.
>> Yeah. Well, yeah, a lot, yeah. But with
a limit, you know, a lot, but not
infinite.
I mean, it's basically as many threads
as each one was about that big.
You know, and then the center
would have been the uh the little baby
do baby butterfly.
And that's where the
the little shapes
>> If you had to draw the shape, just the
shape, like one shape in particular that
you might have seen, is there any way
that you could or is it like a
>> Try.
>> It's like a tesseract essentially, like
a like a fourth-dimensional object
depicted in three dimensions or
something?
>> lasted for um
uh maybe let let maybe a half a second.
You know, it'd be frozen in space, the
image.
>> Sorry.
>> The image would be frozen in space for
half a second.
>> Really?
>> And then the and then the threads would
disentangle, they'd start whipping
around each other,
and then they'd freeze again
uh with another brand new shape.
>> How is it just the general idea?
>> Like
was that do you think I mean, you've
probably contemplated this in so many
ways. It must be so frustrating to an
extent because you're not given any
clear answers, and all you can do is
sort of
impose your own anthropomorphic
view on it, like are they communicating
with each other? Are they trying to
communicate with you? Are they are they
talking? Is this even a language? Is it
random? Is it
>> Well, it wasn't random. Yeah, I mean it
was really specific, whatever the hell
they were. And I never saw the same
shape twice.
>> Really?
>> Yeah.
So, but you know, if it were a language,
you'd think they were there'd be some
sort of repetition.
>> comes back or something. Yeah, yeah.
>> Never saw the same one twice.
And uh
Now, the the the middle of the damn
thing would have been something like
this. You know, it was sort of a
And then the the two threads, you know,
one would come in this way and the other
would come in that
>> Like they were weaving something. Like a
spider.
>> right. Just like a spider.
>> And it was like creating
>> Yeah.
>> a symbol.
>> And then there would be this, you know,
this
>> It was weird little architecture.
>> incredible architecture inside this
thing that would be, you know,
>> I don't know what the hell they were.
>> Can't Can't really
>> Yeah, no, yeah. I mean
I wouldn't know where to begin either,
but that's Thank you. That's
fascinating.
>> Yeah.
>> So, you got the you got the impression
that these were three distinct entities.
This wasn't one entity or was that
>> I couldn't tell.
>> Yeah. I mean, there's no answer there.
That's what's so frustrating about this.
Like there's no precedent and there's no
comparison.
>> Sometimes I wonder if the whole thing
wasn't a technology.
>> Right. Like something else was outside
the room.
>> Yeah, that may have been This thing may
have been something that was created for
a purpose and they send it in, you know.
>> Jeez.
>> It's like the CIA out in a van, you
know, and they're and they're they're
sending in some microwaves through a
through a window
>> Yeah.
>> and burn somebody's hands or something
and
you know, but this is sort of an
interdimensional technology being sent
from some other dimension into into my
living room.
I don't know.
>> I can't imagine
you know,
if you were to if you were to apply a
religious lens to that and you were this
was this happened 800 years ago.
>> Which you would definitely do.
>> You know, what would it look it would be
angels, right? It would be angels. It
would be either angels or demons. Like I
mean those are the that's the binary,
you know, that's the amount of options
you have.
>> Yeah.
>> Um
>> That's right.
>> But that would definitely be
Ah man, it's so strange. That's so
strange.
Cuz here we are this clearly physical
object
that is behaving so strangely that
seemed to have appeared out of nowhere
this apparition.
And for
>> It was a ball of fuzz.
>> Yeah.
>> So it entered and it also caught my
attention. And I always I've always
wondered I'm reading a book and I'm
always wondering did I see it out of the
corner of my eye or what or or was there
a little signal sent to for me to look
up at it because the the hypnosis
started as soon as I saw the fuzz.
>> Yeah, you there's no going back to the
book.
>> I was frozen. I don't even know what
happened to the book.
>> Yeah, yeah, the book's out of the
question.
>> Yeah, uh
but my consciousness was
laser focused on that damn thing as soon
as it was a ball of fuzz in the corner
and it and it came in where the where
the wall met the ceiling. That crack,
that seam.
It it was
>> So it made its way in through a crack.
>> I don't know, but it appeared right in
the crack, you know, in this fuzz and
and and it stayed there long enough for
me to go
the hell is that? And then and that was
it. It was like
it was on.
You know, my my my con- something took
over. Obviously something
locked on to my consciousness at that
moment. Yeah. I remember that moment.
And then that's when it started. And
that and but my thoughts were free.
I was free to think all of the normal
thoughts.
>> And you weren't being put There was
nothing being put into your head.
>> I just did I just didn't move. I
>> Couldn't you terrified?
>> didn't I didn't think about moving.
>> Yeah.
>> So I don't know if I was um
>> If that was induced.
>> Induced or if I were I don't know if I
was my body was frozen the way we read
about it in a lot of you know aliens
have the ability
>> But you hear about that.
>> to freeze you know stop a guard from
drawing its gun
freeze them but keep the autonomic
nervous system intact so they can
breathe and they can look around but
they can't move.
>> But you hear about people not being sure
is what I'm saying. There are a lot of
people who said I don't know whether I
was just afraid or whether they stopped
me from moving.
>> Yeah, that's true. And then other people
do feel that they've been frozen.
>> I said I've been frozen.
>> don't know. I I think I was. I mean I I
think I was I think that's not the way I
would have behaved. You know as a a
normal person.
>> It's almost um
it's almost strangely
predatory.
>> Almost predatory.
>> Do you know what I mean? Like there was
like the way that you're describing it
is like
incredibly invasive.
Um
>> It's invasive.
>> But so strange that like
they would need your permission.
>> Yeah.
>> Like they needed it because otherwise
they're doing they're coming towards you
anyways. They could have just kept
coming towards you.
>> my my free will.
>> That makes me think that there's a
benefit there for you then too.
>> And they also didn't go away.
>> Yeah.
>> You know.
>> Right. They were just waiting for you to
They were wearing you down basically.
>> me to give up.
But they did need my permission.
They did need my permission. They
weren't going to They were
Whatever the experience was it was not
going to be invasive even though it was
invasive. They weren't going to do what
they were going to do until it was an
acquiescence of that we're going to do
this. You know,
>> We'll see this dance.
>> Let's do we're we need we're going to do
this and it's a matter of time before
you say yes because this is happening.
>> What's something you would have done
differently in that moment? Like now
that you've had time to think about it,
would you be like, man, I wish I would
have grabbed them or I wish I would have
filmed them or I wish I would have
talked to them out loud or screamed at
them or thrown something at them. Is
there anything you wish you would have
done slightly differently?
>> of those things I wish I would have
done. I would But I But at the end of
the day, I don't I'm not kicking myself
because there was nothing I could have
done differently. There's no other way
that that could have played out. Maybe a
little bit long I maybe I could have
held on a little bit longer before they
uh
before they had their way with me.
But uh
>> Did you ever think they would have
>> I would have
>> done this to another family member? Like
>> would have liked to
gotten some answers.
If I could If I could have it my way, I
I would I would want to know what the
hell where they're what they're from,
what what they want, what they're doing.
What it what it did to me.
>> Yeah.
>> You know,
what they got, you know, what what they
what they left. I would like answers.
I'd like to know what happened when I
lost consciousness. That's really what
I'd like to know, but I'm actually kind
of terrified.
>> You don't want to do any of the
regressive stuff.
>> done any regressive stuff.
>> Yeah.
>> I'm thinking maybe maybe that I might,
but but I'm
I
don't want to.
>> Yeah, that's fair. And I would I would
go with your gut on that.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, do what feels right. In that
case, don't force something like that.
>> I don't I don't feel at the end of the
day that it was that it was um
>> bad
>> bad. You know, that it was a negative
thing. I
And it's
I I wouldn't wish that on anybody in the
world.
But, I'm actually incredibly grateful.
>> Did you have anybody in the house in the
house with you?
>> My daughter was at her mom's that night.
>> Do you think it would have changed how
>> absolutely yeah. And I thought
about that a lot.
If my daughter was in the other room,
that would have been a completely
different experience.
>> go to her first.
>> I Whatever it was, I I don't know, but
it would have been a completely
different experience. That all I would
have been thinking about.
>> Yeah, of course.
>> It's of course, you know. But, she
wasn't in the house.
>> You need Yeah, it's probably part of it.
>> Yeah, it's probably part of it. They
probably knew that.
They obviously they knew that.
>> Gosh.
I I
It's so funny, but I desperately want
you to have an answer.
>> I know.
>> I know that you must
obviously want your answers, but like I
want you to have an answer. I want I
want you to have an answer. I don't want
the answer. I just want you to have it.
I feel like you deserve an answer. I
feel like that's
Show me something that strange and don't
give me an explanation is like the
the sickest joke you could pull on
somebody. Like, what what are you doing
here? Like, give give give give the man
something.
>> And for years,
this was not a thing that you could I
had any inkling of that I could um share
this with anyone.
But, I did start writing
all stuff down. You know, I started
writing stuff down right away and I and
I knew that I needed to share the
experience. I knew that became
part of the journey relatively soon. I'd
say within a 6 months.
I was sitting on my
um
back deck and uh looking at the stars
and I and it just came over me. I need
to write all this down. I need to write
everything about everything that I can
about all of this and I need to write it
down and if not not for now, then just
as a record for somebody.
This needs to be. And that just sent me
on on the journey, you know, and
and that's that's that's where the book
comes from.
>> Maybe that's the whole point, you know,
who knows?
>> I I mean, I I have to kind of believe
that. I I have to believe that there is
a point and I have to believe that we're
slowly building the bridge
to a new to a new reality, to a new
life.
>> A new world.
>> Yeah.
>> We can create a new world.
It exists.
It's real.
>> Have you ever done um like psychedelics?
>> Yeah.
>> Have you tried to like
>> I have.
>> figure out what it was Yeah, so what
what have you tried? What have you gone
down?
>> I smoked DMT with Paul Heyman.
>> With Paul Heyman?
>> Yeah, and I that was the reason I did
it. I was like, maybe they're over
there.
>> Yeah, they're waiting for me. Let's go
see them.
>> Maybe this is the Maybe this is where I
supposed to meet put the dots together
and and meet meet them.
>> And what came from that?
>> Nothing.
>> Nothing.
Did you have a good time?
>> a lot out of it. I went to the center of
the universe and met the the mother of
the cosmos.
So, you know, there's it's there's a lot
of value
>> It's not nothing.
>> in in DMT, I'll tell you.
Yeah, and that that was stunning. And I
think that all of these
modalities are leading us toward the
same thing. I I think that
there is a um
that the universe is constructed of a
non-local essence that we call love.
It's a human word that we use to to talk
about a innate connection that we all
share
that exists everywhere and every all at
once and for all time
and that we're all born from this
as this this desire, this impulse to be
the impulse to create, the impulse to to
join together to create to create
novelty, to be in the universe. I think
it's happening everywhere all at once. I
think this is the heart of
synchronicity.
And you know, we call it love because
we're humans and we need to you know,
make make vowels funny noises come out
of our mouth to talk about stuff that oh
yeah, I I I I know what you're talking
about that thing that doesn't have a
really very good definition, but we all
know what it is.
I think the universe is made out of
that.
And then you know, I think that's uh
a hell of a revelation.
You know.
>> Well said and I think I agree with you.
I think that that
to me is becoming more and more clear as
I'm on this journey myself discovering
things about myself you know, through
these conversations, through these very
cathartic interactions.
I'm also coming to that conclusion and
uh you know, that's
that's one of those things that like
when you have a revelation like that
as you go down this
it makes you feel good.
Do you know what I mean? It's not just
like an intellectual stimulant. You have
an emotional
stimulation that is occurring much like
the one when you create a bond with
someone or a connection with someone or
you know, or or or have someone in your
life that you care about or or a memory
like these things are more than
information on a piece of paper
that we can study with science.
And it's
>> can still study it with science.
>> Yeah.
>> But we have to start injecting
uh some love into this situation.
>> Yeah, I would think so.
>> never going to get there. I mean,
and why not? I mean, isn't that the
greatest thing in the world?
>> I think so. Do you like it we we'd have
this conversation Dr. Mosbridge found a
substantial increase in psi ability when
someone was experiencing
unconditional love.
>> Such a great dot. Well, that's such a
fantastic clue. That's such a touchstone
>> Yeah.
>> that Mossberg has has found and put
together. I mean, that is a ledge that
we can build on.
>> It's the keyhole.
>> Yeah, it really is.
>> Yeah.
>> It's the keyhole. You're like, oh, wait.
>> And and I think it's the beginning of
learning how
uh these um entities and I don't think
they're non-human.
Uh the consciousness, the intelligence
that we're dealing with is not
non-human. It's non-local.
And that
non-local intelligent technology starts
with what we're calling love.
>> Hm.
>> This non-local essence
it's a information system.
It's just not uh
it's just not local.
>> Yeah, I wonder if, you know, if you go
back in time, like let's say I try to
picture myself, right? Let's say I am I
am an alien
and which I am by the very definition,
but let's say I'm I'm out here and I've
developed technology that
understands that love is a very strong
energy.
It is
um
a fundamental property of the universe
and how technology works and everything
and I can use that to somehow bounce
around the universe or or you know, talk
to people in their minds or whatever it
is.
And I I I
you know, I I positive this idea to
myself, like if you were an alien
and you were zipping around 2,000 years
ago
and you just you see this like emanating
force on the planet and you go, what is
that? And like a moth to a flame, you're
like, that's creation energy. That's a
lot of energy or or whatever it
Oh, there's a guy there. And he's just
like emanating this.
You know, and like maybe to them I I
always thought like what a strange idea
to be like, you're zipping across and
then that's what made them go
>> that
>> Wait.
>> Really interesting. What do we have
here? We have this You don't even know
what they have, these people. This is an
incredible amount of technology that you
know, and maybe that's why we're being
studied.
>> That's one of the things that Dr. Paul
Perrado was told on the ship or wherever
the hell he was with the human-esque
alien.
>> Oh, really?
>> He was up there for 3 days. He starts
freaking out again. He's like, I want to
go home. I miss my kids. I miss my
family. This is really weird.
I'm overwhelmed. You guys are jamming
information into my head.
And I can't take it. And one of the
aliens goes, "Come here."
He goes, "You are made of love."
He goes, "All of that, all your fears,
all of your bullshits, throw all that
away. There's only one thing that
matters, and that's love. And you
connect to that love."
And I He goes, "I'll show you how to do
it right now." And he connected Paul to
his family. And Paul says he was there
in the
space
the laboratory but his kid in his own
living room appeared before him. And he
saw his two children playing. And he saw
his wife looking after the kids. And
Paul was overcome with this overwhelming
feeling of love. And he looked at one of
his kids, the little one, the little
3-year-old, and he said, "I love you."
And the kid turned and looked around and
smiled at him.
And then they went kind of went away.
And then the aliens told him, he said,
"Everybody carries within them this
flame.
And we see that flame. And we're
attracted to that flame. And some people
have bigger flames than others. But
people with a with a big flame, those
those are the people we're attracted to.
We study that."
>> Wow.
>> Yeah.
That's
dead on.
>> Yeah, that was the thought that I I know
if you're traveling and you see that,
you go, "What is that over there?" You
know, and that like in my head I was
like, "Maybe that Jesus guy a couple
thousand years ago was just this like
being that had a lot of love. You see
all these depictions of angels and
hearts with these beaming
rays of light and stuff. And I thought
maybe this is just
Who knows what he is, you know, maybe
he's also alien, I don't know.
But, you know
that would be um
if love is a fundamental property of the
universe, of understanding technology,
then obviously it's of interest right to
people you know, seeking it who don't
have it perhaps or don't have as much
abundance of it.
>> Yeah, and studying it and you know, do
they are they trying to figure out ways
to create space to foster more of it?
>> Sure. That's what an AI would do.
Right? What is love? And then they would
like just grow things and be like,
"Ooh."
>> That's the other thing Pauls Perotta
said. He said, "They don't feel emotions
the way we do."
He said, "They don't have the familial
attachments that we do. They don't
They're not They're not all you know,
getting bent out of shape about shit."
>> No.
>> They kind of do No extremes. Right.
Yeah, and yet they're they're have this
innate sort of
fascination but also connection to
this um
this they described it as a flame, you
know, that we all carry.
>> And then you have these other beings um
from Joseph
uh the Wunderkind
>> Right.
>> who cried.
>> Yeah.
Yeah, weeping.
>> Who who wept at like something very
emotional, you know, and and so
>> his pain, his own pain and frustration
at the world that he lived in.
And the first thing out of his mouth
was, "How do we fix this? This is a
mess. You
Adolf Hitler just killed 40 million
people."
>> Yeah. And to them that's like over
stimming. They're like, "Whoa." And like
that's too much emotion. We don't feel
that emotion normally."
>> They started weeping.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Incredible.
Um
Okay.
I think it's about time for some
questions from the audience. What do you
think? You down answer a few questions?
>> Oh my. Yeah.
>> Yeah, I only got a few, like three or
four.
>> Yeah.
>> All right. I'll go turn the camera on.
Um okay.
Let's get into some of these interesting
questions. The audience
always has the best questions. You know,
I'm I'm I'm cherry-picking.
>> Great.
>> But as soon as your name came up, too,
it was like flooded. Uh so many people
were very curious
about what you had to say, so
um
Let's go here.
This is from Tess.
>> I
I did that.
From your perspective as a storyteller,
which piece or pieces
of purported fiction most closely
resemble the facts?
>> Yeah, it's a great question. Yeah.
Well, obviously, Close Encounters, they
did their homework. Uh they certainly
did.
Um
Fire in the Sky, a wonderful story. It's
really too bad that they just just
producers decided to completely alter
the abduction experience. That has
really never been filmed. And I uh I
would love to do that. You know, I I
would love to
film and I've worked on a screenplay
about
the abduction experience.
Um the uh made-for-TV movie
uh that based on the Budd Hopkins book.
>> Oh, yeah.
>> It wasn't bad.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that was That was
creepy.
>> Yeah, but also
>> With the uh
>> They got a lot right.
>> with the hybrid stuff and like, man,
that creeped me out. Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah, it was based Randall Nickerson was
a consultant on that, as well.
>> really did their homework. They really
tried to to get the aliens right, you
know? In fact, some of the pictures
online of that those aliens
>> circulating.
>> circulating as real aliens.
Uh they did a great job.
>> What do you think of Disclosure Day?
>> I um I I'm a huge Steven Spielberg fan.
>> Same.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> There's all there you know, so I'm I'm a
movie lover. There's a lot to love in
in the Disclosure Day. You know, and and
I and I hope it opens the door to make
more more movies. I've got a great
script about
um
uh Calvin Parker
>> Oh, yeah.
>> Yeah, and Charles Hickson.
>> Yeah.
>> Uh Pascagoula
>> The Pascagoula case, yes.
>> 73
>> That's uh
>> That's a really interesting
uh contact experience story that took
over the nation in 73 and really sparked
a lot of the debates that that went on.
And of course, that was
uh the year of the humanoids, according
to David Webb, who wrote a fantastic
monograph about that.
But, hell of a year, 73. Um all over the
world, humanoid landings. It was a hell
of a wave.
And Hickson and Parker really got caught
up
in the in the brunt of it, you know? It
ruined both of their lives, especially
the young one.
Poor Calvin, you know? He um he that
dogged him for the rest of his life. He
really had trouble integrating that
experience into his life. And I think
that that
is a wonderful story uh that needs to be
told.
>> Yeah, I'm surprised it hasn't been.
There's so many stories though, as you
know,
that would make for incredible movies.
>> These two brothers wrote a wonderful
screenplay.
>> Really?
>> Yeah, and I've I've got it. I'd love to
turn that into a a film. You wouldn't
need a whole lot of money these days to
do something like that.
So, that's something that I have on the
>> Nice.
>> books, you know? I think that would be a
good thing to do.
>> Oh, definitely. That's a really
compelling and strange story.
Um also, I'm really surprised no one's
done like a genuine blockbuster on
Roswell.
>> I know.
>> Like that blows my mind.
>> I pitched a Roswell mini-series.
>> I mean
>> We took it to all the things all the
studios all the outlets we couldn't get
anybody. They're like, "Yeah, it sounds
like a period drama. We don't What do
you Do you guys not know know you guys
you really don't?"
>> I'd I'd hit it from like
I'd man, I'd hit it from such a strange
angle. Like for today's audience, I'd be
like
A 24 angle where
you're one of the perhaps
counterintelligence officers and it's
just slice-of-life.
>> Yeah. That's the way to do it.
>> And you're just following this guy as
he's like, you know, putting the kids to
bed or whatever.
>> Yeah, exactly. You've no idea
>> of anything and all of a sudden in the
background there's all this stuff
happening, but you don't really know
what's
>> and follow Mac Brazel.
>> Yeah.
>> These two guys on opposite ends, you
know.
>> Yeah.
>> And
what was kind of kind of kind of great
is they both kind of changed sides by
the end of that experience.
>> Yeah, it's true.
>> Yeah.
That's a that's a really neat story. We
tried to do it as a mini-series. Maybe
we make a better movie.
>> I mean just Roswell, you know, obviously
or or just 1947 would also work as a
title. I mean those are
>> Great title.
>> Um you had the series there's well I
mean there was Roswell the series of
on like the CW about you know, some
teenage kids being aliens and living
among us or whatever some heartthrobs.
>> That makes it a little harder.
>> It does make it a little harder.
>> stuff, you know, for the for the studios
to sort of wrap their head around
>> Take it seriously.
But then
>> Josh Boone is a Roswell fanatic. He's
got all this wonderful research.
And I'm hoping that he gets to do that.
>> That'd would be cool.
There's um Taken by Spielberg.
>> Yeah.
>> The 10-part mini-series. Oh, it's great.
And it's available on YouTube if anybody
wants to watch it. I highly recommend it
because
>> Taken.
>> It covers it goes so deep.
>> Mhm.
>> Like from from from telepathic
abilities, from having an alien, uh from
screen memories of Nazis, and from like
crash retrieval. It's very on the nose.
And and that plus Close Encounters plus
Disclosure Day He's got to know stuff.
Um
I mean, he's got it. He's playing coy.
>> He's done his homework.
>> Dude, he's done more than his homework.
Let's be honest here.
>> I would imagine that you'd have people
coming out of the woodwork to tell you
what's what's happening.
>> Well, so they had, you know, obviously
uh J. Allen Hynek as a consultant for
Close Encounters of the Third Kind. They
they had somebody play uh Jacques
Vallée. So, there was some inside
baseball going on there. There was
crates of, you know, Skunk Works and and
whatnot.
>> Yeah.
>> Um
>> All that stuff was uh
uh you could learn all that stuff at
that time
um without having any insider knowledge.
>> The hand scanner?
>> I've heard
Yeah.
>> that's That was pretty inside baseball.
>> I think that he probably picked up some
details from different people. But that
was going on everywhere, you know? Like
the UFO guys, the researchers, they were
all picking up these little tidbits.
>> Who Who consulted for Disclosure Day
though? I I haven't I looked at the
credits. I couldn't really find anybody
that like fit the bill in terms of, you
know, a whistle blow. Like I would have
had
some of these whistleblowers be like,
"Hey, what do you know?"
>> The rumor is that they approached some
intelligence approached Spielberg
>> That's the rumor.
>> Yeah, that's that's a rumor for Close
Encounters
>> For Close Encounters, yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
Still compelling. And Spielberg, you
know, no matter what he does, it's
always It's to be magical.
>> Agreed. That scene
where they walk the child into the
woods, I mean, gives me goosebumps. That
scene is worth watching the entire movie
just for that scene. The
>> capturing
>> Dude.
>> Yeah.
>> Taking the child in this sort of Hansel
and Gretel scenario, right? Cuz it's
what it is what it is. It ends up being
horrific, really, when you think about
it. You have this like, "Oh, it's cute
animals. It's nice little gingerbread
home in the middle of the woods. Very
magical." And then it starts spinning
and becoming clinical.
>> Oh, yeah.
>> And cold and a slab. Dude.
That terrified It was like
>> I've read accounts about children will
have like big bunny rabbits come into
their room and play with them and then
take them out the window and that's how
they take a lure them onto craft.
>> That seems nefarious.
>> Yeah, yeah.
>> I mean,
it does.
You know, when you In that In that
moment when I watched that scene, I felt
slighted for the kids.
Like, just stay bunnies then.
What are you doing?
Why you got to turn into these ugly
things and like on this metal slab all
of a sudden with these white lights?
Like, just stay the deer.
>> There's some sort of impregnation
>> Well,
>> of our newest sphere of our human this
field of human consciousness. We're
being impregnated with this stuff, you
know.
They don't have to reveal themselves at
all. They could do all of that stuff and
knock every experience or out while
they're sleeping. Take them onto the
craft, never wake them up, then put them
back in their bed. They could do that
for decades.
>> Right. Yeah, there's a reason there.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah, that's a good point.
Um
Okay, from Alan Pugach. I don't know how
to spell
spell that or pronounce that. Barker.
Have other Hollywood figures shared UFO
encounters with you and can you share
them?
>> Uh the answer is yes and then and no
because I don't have their permission.
>> Would you share it without with uh
keeping the source anonymous?
>> I'd I'd rather not.
>> Sure.
>> Yeah.
>> It's fair.
>> But how many would you say?
>> Not very many.
>> Okay, so a few?
>> No.
>> And would these be uh names that people
would be familiar with?
>> Sure.
>> Really?
>> Yeah.
>> What do you think is their reluctance to
want to come forward?
>> It's
uh that's
>> Career or
>> Yeah, uh everyone's on the on the
journey, you know, we're all trying to
muddle our way through this and uh
it is not
um
for the faint of heart and um and there
are consequences and there have been
consequences and I think that that's
changing and I'm willing to uh
to say that that should change, you
know, we should we should be a lot
lighter with this, you know, we we don't
have to believe or not believe. We
should just take this a little lighter,
you know, it's
and this isn't uh you know, no one's
forcing poison down your throat. Just
you take it easy. Yeah, it's okay.
You know, we can all get along to get
along.
>> Yeah, I agree.
Um
were any of those stories did they
involve beings?
>> Um
not that I know, not
>> Mostly mostly some Okay.
All right.
Interesting and I'm sure
you know, hopefully with
you know, podcast and conversations like
the one we're having and the ones like
this
you know, that'll make it uh
commonplace to
>> Yeah.
>> to talk about.
>> for so many
God, there's just so many so many people
out there. I mean, yeah, we're still
living in it, but we're the melt the ice
is melting.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> This one from
Hex.
Kind of answered this in a way, but
it's a maybe a different question. If
you could go back and watch your 2011
experience
as a fly on the wall, would you?
>> That entire experience is burned into my
head in a in in in 1080p in a way that
um will never go away. And a fly on the
wall, I guess that would mean sort of
from an outsider perspective, right?
Sort of like watching myself
uh go through go through that.
No, I don't I wouldn't want to watch
myself go through
that. No, that would be really
embarrassing.
See
see the the utter terror on my on my
face, you know, as as a man who's just,
you know, meeting the angels that are
going to take steal his soul away and,
you know, give die of a heart attack be
found the next day dead of a heart
attack or something on the couch.
It's like that that's what that was, you
know. That would have been the look on
my face.
>> Yeah. Sheer terror.
>> Yeah, you know, but the terror of death,
you know, and that was the other
confrontation, you know, as
kind of started this conversation. Fear
has been you know, something that I
think that um
I've been put here to or maybe part of
the lessons that I'm supposed to be
learning
in this life.
>> Whoa.
>> Yeah.
>> That just occurred to me.
>> Yeah.
>> Cuz the first thing you mentioned on
this conversation was
that, you know, if there was a lesson
for you to learn, it's overcoming that
fear.
>> Part of it.
>> But then what did those things do?
>> Right.
>> When they sensed you were fearful, they
stepped back.
>> Yeah.
>> They were helping you learn that lesson.
>> It's possible.
>> Whoa.
>> whether that was intentional or not, I
don't know, but maybe.
Maybe.
>> Well,
or maybe just a synchronicity.
>> Right.
>> Um
>> Right.
>> Okay, last one here from TH Perry.
It's a good one cuz you got a lot of
these in your book.
Which older UFO cases most shape how you
see the phenomenon's long history?
>> The phenomenon's long history. How I see
the phenomenon's long history, right?
So, well, it has to be the encounter
cases, you know, and the earlier
encounter cases are also
phenomenal. And the fact that they
started as far back as our records go,
um really
I mean, and again, uh Press Indentity is
a great resource for this, but uh the
cases from the 1910s, the 1920s
>> In Canada, there was a few there, too.
>> the 1930s,
you know, the cases that
happened before 4 um
'47, the first worldwide UFO wave of '47
is what kicked off this sort of this
whole endeavor,
this whole transformation.
But the groundwork was being laid
for decades before that. We just didn't
have the language and some some folks,
like Evelyn Wendt,
who in 1923 was playing
Was that a Canadian case? She's playing
in her
schoolyard
in the grass and this ship comes down
out of the middle of nowhere and these
robotic flower beings get out.
And they're basically her her height,
you know, she's like a 7-year-old girl
in 1923.
And the beings
got really upset about the science
building on the property and they told
her that if the work in the science
building continued, they would blow it
up.
As it's just these bizarre cases. These
flower people are like, "The work must
stop in the science building." And then
they went in their craft and they
dragged out this huge heavy instrument.
And they she didn't know if it was a
weapon or what the hell it was and they
asked her to help her and she's trying
to lift this. She said it was way too
heavy.
And then they basically put it back in
the ship and took off and they said
before they took off, they said, "We're
going to be back for you in 35 years."
And then they flew away.
>> They never came back.
>> And she lived in terror for 35 years.
They never did come back. 50 years
later, as an older lady,
she told that story in 1973 because all
of the other humanoid cases were coming
out. So she said she wanted her story to
be recorded even though it had started
in 1923.
So that was a big transformation for me,
you know,
just sort of helping to sort of
>> Yeah.
>> take shape to put a shape to the
phenomenon.
>> Yeah, Udo Wartena, same kind of thing.
He came out in the '80s.
>> Right.
>> Uh and it wasn't even him that came out.
They found like
his detailed account
in writing.
>> You know, after after he passed, yeah.
>> That's cool.
>> Yeah. And being like, "Yeah, I was, you
know, prospecting and
>> Right.
>> they took me on board and showed me the
tech and
>> There's a case from the 30s in Italy
where this artist
found that one's a little iffier on
because he was an artist and a writer
and it just felt like he may have been
cat that he told his account in the 50s.
So I think there's a little bit of that
going on.
>> Oh definitely. I mean you look at Dan
Fry, you look at you know George Adamski
and this whole bizarre sort of
>> Right.
>> for a space brother movement.
>> Which really bothers me because there
really are these tall blonde human-esque
aliens. So
I'm of two minds.
Were they were was that contactee
movement instigated by the human-esques
knowing that that it would wouldn't be
believed knowing that it or was that
groundwork laid
were those folks tapping into some sort
of non-local information system where
the egregore of the human-esque alien
>> everyone
>> just sort of coming together comes
together in the subconscious
in some fashion. Are we tapping into you
know and that happens that's a
phenomenon.
The multiples phenomenon like calculus
was invented by two people at the same
time or you know the steam engines four
people invented in it at the same time.
So there seems to be this sort of
non-local sort of information system
that we're drawing from and that that
that happens at at certain moments in in
society.
Things reveal themselves in different
ways. But I don't know.
>> Yeah and you know it's a shame because
at the heart of it a lot of these
experience
phenomena at the heart of it there there
always is like some truth.
And
we've seen so many examples or at least
you know with nothing we can prove but
where
the initial experience you know I'm I'm
usually pretty high conviction on.
>> Right.
>> But then after that, there's like the
more, you know, fantastical stuff that
keeps happening. And it was Andy from
that UFO pod when I was chatting to, I
think, recently. And he he had a really
good analogy. It was like, if my son
came up to me and said, "Dad, I I
flipped the bottle and it landed. I did
the bottle flip and it landed."
And then, you know, I have no reason not
to believe him.
But then if every day after that, he's
like, "But I flipped it twice and it
landed on the head and then I I did a
backflip and I flipped it." And it's
like, and you got to keep believing him,
eventually you kind of go, "I don't know
if I can believe all of this."
>> And then it takes away from the initial
bottle flip.
>> Exactly. And then people throw the baby
out with the bathwater and that's just
kind of a tragedy.
>> Yeah. But we're going to get, you know,
we're going to get all that.
>> Yeah. It's going to be part of it.
Well,
I appreciate you
coming on this podcast and having a
discussion with me. Not only that, I
appreciate spending time with me and and
and um
>> I really enjoyed it. It was super fun.
>> Yeah.
>> And it was it's there's a bit of
cathartic
in there, too.
>> Well, I'm glad.
Well, you're welcome anytime. Um I hope
uh you get you find some resolve through
this uh through the release of your
book, which is going to be greatly
anticipated. Um let me know, you know,
when that comes out and I'll be happy to
scream at the top of my lungs. It's a
fantastic read. I'm not just saying
that. It really is well-written.
>> Thanks.
>> Yeah. And I've learned
of a bunch of new cases because of it,
so it was very exciting for me.
>> I love that. I love digging up the the
stuff. It's really appreciated. It's
such a great couple of days. And
it's really neat really neat to be in
the skiff.
Thanks for having me. Really.
>> Well,
>> Means a lot.
>> Pleasure's all mine.
>> Mhm.
Mhm.
Mhm.