Whenever I feel like I'm getting close
to the truth, your name always shows up.
It's like, well, Grant Cameron put that
out. Grant Cameron knows about this.
I've leaked so many documents and I'm
saying, "Does anybody ever just leak a
document? Am I the only person that's
leaked documents here?"
>> You're one of the few people who've had
direct interactions with Eric Walker,
who's been rumored to be on this sort of
Majestic 12 committee. What was that
interaction like?
>> Oh, it was wild.
He said at one point they're talking
about the MJ12 committee and he cuts the
guy off. He said, "Look, let me ask you
a question. What do you know about ESP?"
And the guy had no answer. He said,
"Look, unless you understand about ESP
and how it works, you will not be taken
in by the control group." When he said
control group, what do you think he
meant? He described them as a group of
elites, if you were invited into their
group, I would know.
Secret societies are the guys with the
money. that the people who went to the
Cosmos Club were the insiders. Hillary
was really into this thing. They talked
about the seven-year plan. They were
going to promote the stuff and John
Podesta was actually saying, "Ask her
about the aliens and she was going to go
on Kimmel and she went on there and he
didn't ask her the UFO question." No.
How do you know that?
>> Send them Pesta emails.
>> Holy
>> And then she
if you listen to Jim Seivan, he says
just because you got bodies and crafts
doesn't mean you know what's going on.
He said all the size stuff is right.
Everything. I wrote the whole book on
UFO skyps where I write 36 people that
came to me and all said, "I've flown the
craft." And the first
>> Really?
>> Well, yeah.
>> Do you believe we have crash retrieval
and reverse engineering programs?
>> So, Ron Pendulfi run the weird desk.
>> What's the Weird Desk?
>> The Weird Desk is supposedly the place
at the CIA where all the weird stuff
comes in, all the paranormal stuff.
>> It's like the X Files of the CIA.
>> The really weird stuff.
>> So, you think Ron Pendul exists at the
top of the UFO pyramid from a government
perspective?
He's been at the CI since 84. He's
rumored to brief the presidents. And he
says, quote, "People have always
wondered what it's like to go into the
next world. There's been a
breakthrough." He looks over at this
John guy. Next time John goes to the
desert, a number of us here will go into
the next world and come back again. And
I went, "Wow."
>> Sequence five.
>> How is this possible?
>> Nothing too unusual about it. Their
existence cannot longer be denied.
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episode. So, I'm here with Grant
Cameron, and this has been a long time
coming. I've been trying to get you to
the States for the longest time. Yeah,
>> I had to come out to Canada, but I'm
really grateful to be with you now
because
>> there are many deep threads in UFO world
whenever I I feel like I'm getting close
to the truth and I'm going through all
these interesting people and places and
dates and and events and your name
always shows up. It's like, well, Grant
Cameron put that out. Grant Cameron
knows about this. Um, so I'm really
excited to speak to you and uh I think
this should be a lot of fun. Well,
Dusty, I'm honored to be here because
you're one of the guys that's getting
the message out and that's basically
what it's all about. It's like it's not
about money. It's it's to me it's always
been like a chess game is like uh
because I was very good at chess when I
was a little kid. I stopped playing cuz
I started to lose a couple games. I
didn't want to lose. But to me, it's
like a chess game. It's like I saw
something and I was determined I'm going
to figure this thing out. And uh one of
the problems we have in the UFO
community is is getting the message out
to raise consciousness. And so I'm I
appreciate what the job you've done in
terms of moving the message to the
general public.
>> I'm doing my best. I don't even know if
uh there's a concrete or discreet
message. It's more like uh just I'm
trying to figure it out myself and I'm
filming that. And so I think through
that, you know, maybe that that uh you
know, creates sort of a ripple effect.
And there are others who do a great job
like Chris Ramsey and you know, we're in
uh Luigi's office. He's making an
amazing movie about Bob Lazar. all these
people uh and I do think it it you know
it spreads and uh you know the whole
thing grows but you really helped kick
it all off. So um uh I want to talk
about how you got into uh this whole
field. Uh you had an experience, right?
It was when was that? 1975.
>> May of 1975. Actually started in
February of 1975. I lived in Manitoba,
which is the province right in the
middle. It's Winnipeg, Manitoba, which
the coldest major city in the world. And
a small town about 35 miles southwest.
It's called Carmen. Suddenly the it was
all over the news. There's this thing
called Charlie Red Stars flying around
there and I was at university at the
time and I was kind of depressed with
where I was. I was trying to figure out
like calculus and chemistry and stuff
and I was like how the hell are you
going to make any money with this stuff?
Like what am I going to do with this
stuff? I couldn't figure out why I was
there and I was expected to go cuz I was
kind of a smart kid so I was expected to
go. I just couldn't figure out what I
was going to do and then the the this
the sighting started. The object appears
to be stationary just above the ground.
Then almost simultaneous with a flash
which appears in the sky, the object
moves north at blinding speed.
>> And I said to my friend that we used to
drive around the city, do nothing, you
know, just drive around the city. I
said, "Well, instead of driving around
the city, why don't you go out and see
what's what they're looking at?" And um
I figured it was like I always describe
it as the lottery. You buy the ticket to
the lottery, there's a chance you're
going to win, but you ain't going to see
nothing. New York seen it. So we did we
didn't go we didn't go till May because
I'd had no interest in it. He had no
interest in the subject. So in May the
CKY film was caught on film. They caught
this thing jumping from the ground to
5,000 ft in the air in three frames,
four frames. We haven't got the actual
film, so we can't uh determine exactly
how many frames, but it and the whole
horizon lights up. One frame, the entire
horizon lights up. And there was a TV
crew got it. And so they analyzed this
thing, an 8-minute documentary they did.
They had it frame by frame. This thing
is moving, how it jumped the the flash
frame as it it went up and they were 8
miles away and it went from the bottom
of the frame to the top of the frame and
they're 8 miles away and just amazing
things. So I said, "Holy cow, look at
they got on a film. Let's let's let's
go." So we drove out there and we drove
in this town called Carmen. We drove
out. We drove in. I had no I had no
understanding about astronomy or
anything. I'm looking at planet stars. I
couldn't tell a planet from a star. I
was like, "Oh, and what are they looking
at? What's everybody looking at?" And we
drove for an hour and then my friend
said they was driving. He said, "Okay,
we'll drive into Carmen one more time.
If we don't see anything, let's go
home." I said, "Fantastic. This has been
a total waste of time." I knew we
wouldn't say anything. So, we turned the
car to go back in and boom, it appeared
from the left to the right. And every in
the car, nobody said, "Is that what
they're looking at?" Cuz we were looking
at what they're looking at. And nobody
said, "Is that what they're looking at?"
Everybody just went, "There it is." And
it was just so weird. And it it I
looking back it came in so close and so
clear and so slow right in front of the
car. Just flew in front of the car and I
was just mesmerized cuz I was raised I
was supposed to be a minister. So I was
raised sort of very religiously and it
was like the B miracles and stuff and
the first thing I thought is
>> holy cow there are miracles like whoa.
>> What did it look like?
>> It was it was like a plasma object. It
was just and it looked like it was
alive. It was just slowly pulsing. It
was going so slow and it was maybe 100
feet off the ground, 150 feet and it
came right in front of the road and as
we were driving.
>> How big was it?
>> Hard to tell because it was at night. So
we say like a small plane or something.
But the thing is you have no perspective
at night as to what it was. But it was
pretty big in the sky. It wasn't a light
in the sky. It was it was an actual
object. You could and you couldn't see
the edges. So it was l this idea that it
gives off this energy, this light that
doesn't light anything up. We called it
a dead light and it would just be
pulsing along. And I remember it was
going across the road and then there was
these school buses all parked there and
I was getting out of the out of the car
was still moving. I'm getting out of the
car cuz I want to cross the ditch and I
wanted to go and watch this thing uh as
it got behind the school buses. I
remember I was sitting between these
school bus and just watching this thing
just went boop and just pulsing just
flying just flying away. So I dragged
all my friends. I said, "Man, you got to
see this. This is the most amazing thing
you ever seen in your life." So I drag
all my friends out there and it was like
a party atmosphere cuz it's Saturday
night or Friday night, whatever. So you
got kids out there drinking beer on the
on the roads outside the town, you know,
and we were there and there was 20 28
people when not where I was. We're in
the middle of nowhere. I didn't know
where we were. Just we saw these cars
parked. So we went there and the car
beside us had I remember it had it was a
courier car. There was three guys and
there was a girl and he had a camera, a
Nikon camera that had the first motor
drives on it where they could advance
the film very fast. So um the second
night we were sitting there and all my
friends said, "Oh, we're going home." I
said, "No, no, you got to see this. This
is the most amazing thing here. Hang on.
Stay here. Nope. We're going back. We're
hungry. We're going back to Winnipeg for
pizza and all my friends left and there
was about nine of us left when it
finally came. So, we're sitting there
and there was just like a flash cube
flash in the sky and these kids are
sitting in in the in the field and they
yelled back at me, "Is that it, Grant?"
And I go, "I guess so." It didn't look
like what I saw first. I said, "I guess
so." Because it's so weird. And they
went boom boom. It's called the ping
pong ball. Boom boom boom. It's jumping
around the sky. Boom. Boom. Boom. Boom.
And and I can still remember it was just
like a football game. People were
swearing, screaming, yelling, jumping up
and down. And this guy could just hear
the motor, the camera was going click,
click this as this thing was coming
real. He's unloading the camera as this
thing is coming towards us. And the girl
couldn't see it because it was jumping
around the sky. Says, "I can't see it.
Someone show it to me." And everybody
just ignored her. We're just sitting
there and it came in and then it
appeared like the same first night. It
was like this red pulsing object and it
had this sort of a green glow on the
back of it. came right at us and it just
sort of made this turn and it sort of
went back sort of it came from the west
it went back into the northwest and I
remember as I was watching it these this
car took off the gravel was flying
because it goes so slow they were
chasing it. So I was sitting there and
uh I I was looking at it and the the
thing that stayed with me my entire
career it's 51 years now. I looked at it
and I go that is so cool that could be
an extraterrestrial from another planet.
Go what the hell is it doing? It's not
doing anything. And we had a joke
because it would be sort of showing up
there all the time and it was like a
small town. There was no military. There
was no industry. There was no nuclear.
There was nothing there. And it was like
why are they here? Why what the I was
asking the guy that ran the airport and
we had a joke. We said like American
beer was very water low alcohol at that
time and Canadian beers always had high
eye high alcohol. So we said he's doing
a beer run. He's coming from the United
States. He's picking up some beer and he
goes back to the United States, you
know. And so I asked a guy later on I
went 35 years later I went back to this
guy Bob Demer who's a guy who's real
wild guy. He rebuilt his zero Japanese
zero built all these flew in the battle
of Britain the movie flew his his uh his
zero and stuff like he's just a wild guy
had an air airfield there and he was
sort of the tour guide. So I said Bob
why were they here? Why'd you come to
Carmen? He said I told you. I said Bob I
don't know. I'm doing a lecture in the
states. I want to I just want to review
what happened here. And he said, 'I told
you in 75, I told you what happened.
What? Why they were here? And I said, '
Bob, I still don't know why they're
here. And he said, the nuclear weapons.
I told you the nuclear weapons. That's
why they were here. And then I said, oh
yeah. He said, don't you remember I told
that story about the guy, the Air Force
guy that I talked to at the bar on the
on the border that they had this thing
cornered over top of a nuclear weapon
and they they were told to ram it and
they came in and the guy that was in the
bar said, "It's not worth my life." And
he pulled out of the out of the
formation and the the thing just took
off through where where he was. He he
left a hole and this thing took off. And
then it made sense because we all always
knew that North Dakota was a nuclear
superpower. If it had been a country
country, it would have been a nuclear
superpower. It had the mine out field
and then it had the Grand Forks field
which is the one that we were involved
with. Had 150 Minuteman nuclear missiles
in each field. And uh so that's 300
nuclear missiles. And we'd go into the
states and we'd see them. There'd be in
a field. There'd be one in a field. You
see the fence around it off off in a
farmer's field or something like that
and then another one. And so we always
knew there was nuclear weapons. We knew
if there was ever a nuclear attack, we
were gone because we're 60 mi north of
the border and every tenth, you know,
Russian missile would come short right
on top of us. You know, we're we're gone
because that's the the number one
target. It's not Washington. It's not
LA. The number one target is the
missiles. So then this is the Russians
would target this these missile fields.
North Dakota would be obliterated
because they've got if you don't get the
missiles, you're not going to know what
happens. So what had happened in 75 in
February they opened what was called the
Mickelson Stanley ABM site. It was the
only anti-bballistic missile unit that
everyone operational in the United
States. There's supposed to be three.
One was in the east somewhere in
Wisconsin or something. One was in
Nakoma, North Dakota, which was the one
that we were involved with. And then
there was supposed to be one at
Molstrom. And they only built the one in
in North Dakota. So they put in another
hundred nuclear missiles. So they had
300. Now they put this field maybe, you
know, a couple acres with all these
missiles. And the idea was this is pre-S
Star Wars. So what they're going to do
is they have these five megat ton
missiles and they would launch. So if
the Russians launch, they're going to
try to hit it in outer space. So they
launch these missiles and then if those
missed, then they had these one megaton
sprint missiles that would go up and
create this shrapnel over top of the
missile silos and shred the the the
Russian missile as it was coming down.
So they put these 100 nuclear missiles
and that's when the UFO started on our
side. We were only like 25 miles north
of the border where all these stuff was
happening and Nakoma was just on the
other side of the border and they had
the big radar was called the Nixon
pyramid which is right on the border and
this is the one that would pick up the
Russian missiles and stuff like that and
I didn't know that at the time. It was
maybe 30 years later that I suddenly
realized they'd put all these new
nuclear missiles. In November of 1975,
they made an agreement with the Russians
and they started taking them out because
of all the thing with the dummy warheads
and stuff like that that they realized
there's no way you can defend this kind
of stuff. So they basically uh stopped
and this missile field was taken out. So
I think they spent $6 billion in 1975.
It was there from February till November
of 1975 and that whole time we were
inundated with UFOs. And there was a
missile silo right on the border and
there was a UFO landing about 2 miles
away from it. And there was a famous
abduction case called the Larsson case
in North Dakota in 1973 or 1975, spring,
summer of 1975 where there was two
nuclear missiles within sight of where
they were abducted. And this is a big
story back in that time because Travis
Walton hadn't been abducted yet. 75 was
a big year. I got involved. I got
dragged down the rabbit hole. Linda How
got dragged down the rabbit hole. What
happened in the Larsson case?
>> She she was abducted. She was going to
uh an appointment in Bismar. So, she's
going from Fargo to Bismar and then just
outside of Beaver, North Dakota. This is
where the abduction took place and she
describes the beings and they're they're
not grays. They're some weird type of
beings and they regressed her and the
National Enquirer came in. So, it was a
big story. It was all over the place.
Everybody knew like everybody knew about
Pascula. Everybody knew about Betty and
Barney. And this is one of the big ones
that the National Enquirer with their 15
million readers got very popular at that
time. So we started putting this all
together. Same as uh Stan Roman his
father he claimed worked on the missiles
and he came from from North Dakota.
That's where his orig origin was. So
Linda how got called in in the middle of
that year.
>> What happened to Stan Romanuk just for
general audience? Well, he got he had uh
pornography stuff on his on his uh on
his computer. Now, he said it was set up
and I talked to him maybe two years ago.
>> No, I mean what happened to him with
respect to
>> Well, he he was he was a contact major
contacty. He had all these uh beings.
They actually had the photograph of the
of the uh of one of the hybrids that his
wife took. She was sitting in an
audience with the with the wraparound
eyes and they had like when I went to
them, I said to his wife, I said, "Are
you going to these things of shadow
people? any photographs of shadow
people. It's just yeah, you want some?
She said these photographs of shadow
people, they just like total nuts house.
>> And so did he he lived around there or
his father was there?
>> His father was working there. They moved
to he was just north of Denver. And so
everybody go see him like John Alexander
went to see him and I heard that John
Alexander had been there and everybody
say, "Oh, he's he's hoaxing the thing."
And they would tell me uh um like the
Meon people said, "Oh, you're going to
go see Stan Roman." He said, "Anybody
can come to my house for a couple days
>> cuz he has like videos of like beings
coming into his house sort of thing."
>> And he has he has he has the big story
nobody knows about and that is the
Audrey story. So the Audrey story and
there's a couple of films of him at the
phone where Audrey phones up and it's
this voice message that he had back at
the time and it's like a phone message.
So, it's an actual voice. It's the
Audrey phone message and it was this
voice and they're they're calling him
star seed and they're saying star seed
this and they were giving him these
messages and he would have it on tape
where the the phone would ring and you'd
do this whole thing. So, everybody said
ah Stan's making it up. He's hooks and
most people don't know there was 80 over
80 phone calls, Audrey phone calls to
all sorts of people. There was a guy who
actually was with me with Tim Taylor who
had a bunch of them. He was going to do
a book on them. He played a couple a
couple of Audrey messages and he had two
phones. He was a
>> What are What are the Audrey messages?
>> Well, they're messages that come from
the beings that he's in contact with.
>> Wow.
>> And you're an absolute encyclopedia
about all this stuff. So, I want to make
sure when you mention a thing, it's not
only accessible to people who are into
UFOs, but you explain what it is to a
wider audience.
>> So, this this guy, nobody knows. So,
this guy's a big business guy, and he's
the guy that had the cabin where I met
um Tim Taylor in Pennsylvania. but he's
a big business guy in in uh New Jersey
and he had two phones. He told me he had
two phones, one phone for business and
the other phone and he would know before
the phone rang that Audrey was going to
phone and Audrey would phone and then he
would get these messages and he was sort
of a big business guy. He was backing
Stan Roman until the charges came where
Stan got pulled up on these charges and
and then the guy pulled out.
>> What were the Audrey messages?
>> Well, everybody was getting different
messages. I can give you the one which
which sort of blew me away. Paula
Harris. She said she got a message from
I said that's nothing. I got a phone a
message from Audrey. I said, "You got a
message from Audrey, too." And she said,
"Yeah, I got a message." I said, "Well,
tell me." "Well, it's nothing." I said,
"Well, but Stan Romanut got him." And
then uh um the guy in New Jersey was
getting them. And then um uh the public
affairs guy from Eupon got a message on
his own phone. It came with his phone
number. And this is before we could do
this thing, make your phone number comes
on his own phone. His own phone is
phoning him. And Audrey's on there and
he played me the message. So I knew
there was there's these people getting
these Audrey messages all over the place
and nobody had made it public that these
Audrey messages. So Paula's was she had
gone to a Steven Greer event at
Creststone, Colorado and she had
actually bought five acres cuz she was
thinking of making some establishment.
>> Why was Steven Greer doing an event at
Creststone?
>> Well, he was doing an event there.
>> What was it?
>> Well, it was like one of his C5 events
that he has, you know, where in
California or Florida and stuff. He was
doing one there
>> cuz I believe is a center of
>> Yeah. there was sort of this woman who
started that she had all these ideas of
like syncric ideas of you know some
universal religion or something I think
>> and it's a it's just a beautiful place
so Paul had bought five acres there and
we had she was going to put an
establishment and dreer had acres there
and stuff like that
>> and so she came back the first time she
went she came back and then she said to
herself boy that's beautiful I'd like to
go and the phone rang and Audrey is on
the phone she says don't worry you'll go
back what yeah well this is the kind of
phone call says This guy from New Jersey
said he knew when the when Audrey was
going to phone. And this is the part
that I
>> So Audrey seems to be psychic.
>> Well, Audrey's knows who all the people
involved in the case.
>> And so nobody knew that all the people
in the case were getting uh there was
even
>> specifically in the Roman case or in in
which case?
>> Well, the Roman this is all connected to
Roman.
>> It's all connected to Roman.
>> All these all these people were
connected. Everybody who's investigating
Stan Romanuk is getting calls from this
like
>> not all but there was quite a few. I was
picking up more and more. There was a
guy at the he's on the muon board. He
come he comes to me says I want to hear
play this tape. I was in at P in uh
Pennsylvania I guess two years ago and
he said I want to play this tape and
he's playing this tape and I go and he's
star seed and I said is that Audrey and
he said yeah how do you know that? I
said you got a call too. And he said
yeah.
>> What was your call that you got? I I
didn't get I didn't call but I was I was
going all these people and saying you
know you got to take the Stan Roman case
no matter what what happened at the end
you got to take this is a real case I
mean this is a real deal.
>> Do you think that video is real of the
being like showing his face through the
window? He's like inside his house and
you know what I'm talking about being
you see the
>> I wouldn't be surprised. I mean there
it's controversy you can never really
tell but I I I think cuz he had all
sorts of stuff with the guy on the side.
There's so many bizarre stories where
the guy they take the side sighting off
his house and stuff like that. It just
like
>> I didn't know about the nuclear
connection and I didn't know about the
John Alexander kind of involved.
>> Yeah. John went so I was doing a taping
in LA and I heard John Alexander had
been there because that's what his his
thing was and I said well I'll go I mean
I'll go there. I'll go there for a
couple days. I'll tell you and I'll tell
you if nothing happened I'll tell you
something happens I'm going to tell you
what happened. So I was going there and
Roman had the flu. He was just sick as a
dog. So I talked to his wife. He he
serves at a distance. He said, "I I
can't do it." So, I kept going. I went
back to Canada and stuff like that. But,
um, when I was going there, they people
were telling me, "Don't let him touch
your computer. Don't let him touch your
computer because your computer will go
wappo when when Stan touches stuff
>> because there were sort of
electromagnetic anomalies."
>> Chris Bzo has the same thing. I mean, he
gave me a list. I don't know if Chris
gave you the list of all the stuff he'd
done like two washers, three dryers.
Well, a lot of experiencers seem to,
especially kind of super experiencers
or, you know, people who've been
implanted or abducted, you know, many
times often have sort of electromagnetic
anomalies involved with their body and
sometimes they'll shut phones off.
They'll fry electronics. So, Roman was
like, "That's interest."
>> Oh, yeah. Big time. Big time. And, and
so, so when I heard John had gone,
>> he was, he was, we were on a set and
John was sitting in the back and people
were really mad. I think it was uh
Schmidt came out and he was just
furious. John Alexander's there and he's
watching everybody's testimony and stuff
like that and I'm thinking John's there
and then sure enough I went there and I
and you're in the dark so he's in the
dark and you're on camera you can't see
and John comes in and he goes into the
dark and he's sitting there and he's I
guess he's listening to everybody's
things and making notes or for whatever
reason I don't know and
>> he see he's one of these guys that seems
to pop up
>> when anybody has an experience he seems
to go take notes evaluate what's going
on for himself or for somebody else.
Yeah.
>> And then sometimes kind of partially
debunks the thing, says that, well, it's
>> there's
thing cuz I I said, "Oh, what the hell?"
So I saw him and he said he had my book
and he wanted me to sign the book. So I
said, "Yeah, okay." I I figured, "What
the hell?" Cuz he's a kind kind of a
scary looking guy, you know, and he's
got all the martial arts and stuff and
you don't want to get him mad or
whatever. So I said, "Hey, John, I heard
you were at Roman's house." And he said,
"Yeah, I was there." And I said,
"Really? Did anything happen?" Because I
heard stuff had happened. He said,
"Anything happen?" And he goes, "Yeah,
some stuff happened." And I go, "Really?
Something happened?" See, it was
nothing. I said, "What do you mean it
was nothing?" And then he said, he said,
"Well, we went in the backyard and he
took the flashlight and he unscrews the
flashlight till, you know, it's sort of
on on off and it's off and puts them on
the picnic table and then Roman starts
asking questions and the flashlight
starts asking the questions." I said,
"That happened, John? Are you serious?
That was going on?" He said, "Yeah, it's
just paranormal. Nothing unusual. It's
just paranormal for what? So, how is
this flashlight answering the
questions?"
>> Like one, two, yes.
>> One, two, yes, no. binary code.
>> Yeah. Like one for yes, two for no. And
uh I couldn't believe. And then John
said, "It's just paranormal. It's just
paranormal. Nothing to it." And they go,
I just So I was prepared. I was going
because a lot of people just sort of
criticized in the back. And and he said,
"Anybody wants to come to my house?" I
said, "I'll take up the deal, man. Sure.
I you know, I'll see if something
happens." And I heard something come
down the an orb had come down the hall
and John was confronted with this orb. I
heard all these stories, you know,
about. And so when I said to John when I
said, "Did you something happened?" He
said, "Yeah." And I go, "Holy
these people have done tell the truth.
This is this is there." But uh
>> your original experience with this
plasma orb, which is so interesting, it
was in proximity to this nuclear missile
base because that seems to be whenever I
hear it's in proximity to nuclear, I go,
"Oh, that's definitely a genuine UFO."
Um, do you have any video of that or
photos or anything from back then of the
1975 experience? We have we have there's
there's professional photographs of the
uh the uh
>> uh UFO. There's three.
>> Amazing. Yeah. So then you're you're
just hooked at that point. You go, I
want to figure out what's going on here.
Is that
>> Well, that was the whole thing. So I
said, I don't know what's going on,
>> but somebody's got to know what's going
on here. And so then there was all these
synchronicities. Even this was a
synchronicity because the guy that took
the the film, that's why the film is
missing. The guy that took the film, he
was sitting there and they'd been going
out every night and paying overtime to
these guys. And then the guy said the
last night, he said, "That's it. You
guys want to chase this stupid UFO? You
can go on your own. I'm not paying any
more overtime." So all the people that
are on the crew that caught this thing
jumping off the ground and it's in a
documentary UFOs has begun. The Emagger
re they did a documentary in 75. In 79
they really released it called UFOs has
begun. And Jack Valet introduces this
CKY film.
>> May 13th, 1975. Cameraman Alan Carr of
station CKY in Manitoba photographs two
separate sightings over Carman in front
of four witnesses.
>> So when I talked to the guy who did the
film, he wasn't even a cameraman. He was
a film editor in in the in the studio.
And because the cameraman didn't want to
go on his own time, he said, "I'll go."
And so he'd never shot a camera before.
And then 75 the big cameras, you know,
and he has this camera set up on the
road and he's telling me the story.
races. You know, I'm I'm looking through
the viewfinder and this thing's on the
ground and it glows up and it glows back
down. It glows up, glows back down. And
then he says, "Well, they didn't get
anything the night before." I next time
it glows up, I'm going to I'm going to
shoot so I've got something on film. And
it was almost like the UFO said, "You
ready? Get ready." And as he pushed the
trigger, the thing jumped in the air.
And then he then he was following it.
And every time he moved the camera, he
moved the camera and he didn't pick up
anything, but he stopped the camera at
12:00. So when it was on the ground and
jumped up, he caught it there. And then
it started to move across the sky and he
followed it and at 12:00 he sort of
stopped so you can get a film reference
from stars and stuff like that and the
thing flew the through the lens and it
was doing this wave through the lens. Uh
you mentioned C5 and then you have you
know UFOs showing up around nuclear
weapons. Uh do you think those are the
same thing? So the UFOs that show up
based on somebody sort of engaging in
sort of a consciousness protocol and it
you know it comes into their sort of
perview. So often those are sort of orbs
or you know plasma-like objects and then
you obviously have all this tampering
with nuclear weapons. You know sometimes
actually energy grids they seem to
attract UFOs as well. Do you think those
are the same phenomena or do you think
they're different?
>> Well I think all phenomena. I'm I'm on
on the contact modality thing with Ray
Hernandez where he gets pulled out of
his car. I'm doing a lecture on
consciousness. He comes to the lecture
and then two days later he's in this
Miami. He's in a traffic jam completely
stalled. Listen to NPR about some guy uh
making art out of body fat and he's
going, "That's pretty weird." And all
boom, he's in he's he's sort of in this
field and they're showing this wheel and
the wheel is moving. It has all these
different uh images like remote viewing,
psychic phenomena, UFOs, mediums, all
this sort of stuff. and in the middle of
his consciousness and the me the message
he gets is you got to quit parsing this
stuff it's all the same thing and then
bang he's back in his car and that's
when he gets Edgar Mitchell they start
the free foundation and they start
talking to experiencers so uh to me it
it's all basically um the same thing
it's all connected and the nuclear
missiles I'm I'm a little bit different
you can you I think you talk more to
Jacobs than I do uh but I don't I don't
there's been that case since 2010 so my
idea about the UFO phenomen
is it keeps changing stuff. So it's not
like people say oh they're never around
nuclear weapons they've been around
nuclear weapon for 16 years and before
that you got to go back many years and
everybody talks they talk about molster
that's 67 that's like 60 70 years ago
you got nothing newer it's it's like
they do that then they start the crop
circles then they stop the crop circles
they do the mutilations then they stop
the mutilations now we're doing the orbs
and it's almost like they they they keep
changing stuff and people think it's
always been the same in 75 there was no
light language there was no crop circles
there was no uh beams in in the sky.
There was really no orbs when we had
close encounters with the orbs in 76 in
this in this area. We called them ground
lights. We didn't even know we didn't
there was not even the word orbs. So now
it's people always think it's always
been the same, but it's changed and the
nuclear missiles was even back in the
50s. That's Wilbur Smith's main message
from Apha. They
>> So I want to talk about this. You
mentioned Wilbert B. Smith. He was
involved in something called project
magnet. He was also in touch with a guy
named Robert Sarbacher who was uh
running the Washington National Labs and
was doing a lot of you know R&D and
atomic work for Vanavar Bush at the
time. So he's like top nuclear physicist
in the US and they were going back and
forth openly about UFOs. I think at one
point Starbacher says that UFOs are
actually classified at two levels higher
than the Hbomb.
>> And so so so tell us about that
correspondence in Wilbert B. Smith.
Yeah. Well, Wilbert was the head radio
engineer for the department of transfer.
He had a master's degree in electrical
engineering and um he got interested in
hypnosis. He wrote an early article in
the 40s on hypnosis and he got
interested in the UFO phenomenon. He had
Kho's books and stuff like that. And
then the way he tells the story is I
went to Washington because he was he was
negotiating FM radio frequencies. And
one of the people that worked for him
was a metallurgist uh by the name of Art
Bridge who lived really near me in in
Canada. And um he told me he said,
"Well, do you know what Wilbur did?" I
said, "Well, he's head radio engineer."
"No, you know, you know, you really know
what he wanted what he did." I said,
"No." He said, "He had a super top
security clearance. He ran radio
Ottawa." And I said, I said, "What's
that?" He said, "Well, that's monitoring
your Russian communications." Because he
had all the communications. It's all
radio then. So he had they were doing
the ionospheric sta tests, bouncing
stuff off the ionosphere and stuff and
Wilbur was in charge of all this and he
was they had the communication stations.
If you see the the the photograph of the
UFO um the flying saucer observatory
they built it has all these these towers
the communication towers and it was like
basically the NSA of Canada and he was
he was running this whole thing. So
that's why the guy said you realize he
had he didn't need UFOs to have a top
secret security clearance. So he said he
went to Washington and he started asking
questions and then he people were
confirming this and he said where
there's smoke there's got to be fire and
so then he the the Sarbacher thing
happened so they go to the embassy
because it's all done diplomatically you
got to get permission to talk to people
and at that time it was the in Canada it
was the defense research board that
Wilbur was working with and there it was
the uh joint research and development
board that was headed by Vanavar Bush.
So on our side of the border um there
was a head guy who got involved. He was
on the UFO. He was uh Oman Salant was
mentioned in the in the um document that
Wilbur wrote later but Wilbur had gone
down there and they make these this
agreement to go through the Canian
embassy. Now those documents aren't in
the Canian files but they are in
Wilbur's files and I recovered all of
Wil War Wilbur's files and we got this
communication with the with this
secretary at the Canadian embassy. So
the Sarbacher was they set up the
interview was set up with Sarbacher by
the Canadian embassy and it may have
actually been done in the embassy. So
Wilbur goes down there and that's when
Sarbacher's telling him all this stuff.
You know they're insect like beings and
uh you know uh I I I there's this high
classification flying saucers are real.
So then Wilmer comes back and he writes
the famous top secret memo and it was
one of the few top secret memos the
Canadian government doesn't deny it
exists. It's it's there and it's in the
it's in the documents and stuff like
that. And Wilbur's got his personal copy
which doesn't have the top secret and
all that stuff on it. But in there he he
says five things and for many years I
only mentioned the first four and now I
just work on the fifth. He said flank
saucers exist based upon he said I
talked to American officials. That's
what he said in the documents. He's not
talking to people on the street talking
to American officials. And he made this
lots of times. He said the UFO hardware
is not controlled by the air force. is
controlled by American officials, not by
the air force. So he said flying saucers
exist. It's the most highly classized
subject in the United States rated two
points higher than the Hbomb. It's of
tremendous significance to the
Americans. Uh there's a a group headed
by Dr. Vanavar Bush who are trying to
figure out the modus operandi. And then
the next sentence that came to me in
February 2012 popped in my head. The
next line of the thing said, "We were
also told by American officials that
other things might be associated with
the flying sauces such as mental
phenomena. the Americans aren't doing
very well because they said if we're
working on the problem, they're willing
to exchange credentials and talk to us.
So in 1950, they already knew that
mental phenomena was part of the UFO
thing. It wasn't just nuts and bolts,
had this mental phenomena thing. This
Oman Salant that he's referring to in
the top secret memo is getting this
material that he's bringing out embassy
and they're moving it all into the
defense department. Um he um Wilbur is
um sending this material and sending the
material to Sant. So yeah. So so Salant
is is the the top guy and in the embassy
correspondence there's actually a a
document that says we're waiting for the
Americans to make a statement. We're not
going to do anything. We're waiting for
the Americans to make a statement.
Almost like they're going to confirm
there's a crash that this stuff is all
real. And um then there's another
document in Wilbur's files, not in the
official files, but in Wilbur's personal
files uh that says uh we've sent Wilbur
had this idea about how propulsion
worked. He believed it was
electromagnetic fields that they were
using the electromagnetic field of the
earth for propulsion and stuff like
that. And so he had put that through and
he in this document uh he says it has
been sent to Kho took the document on
the propulsion to Vanavar Bush and we're
waiting for his opinion. It'll be
interesting what he says. So that you
have this connection actually with
Vanavar Bush and he's named in the top
secret memo. So that but that didn't
come out till 82. I think the top secret
memo came out when Wilbur died in ' 62.
And then what happened to me was I had
this whole thing where I saw this thing
and I said, "Somebody's got to know
what's going on."
>> And it's funny, Sarbacher also started
to become more open about UFOs later in
life. I believe in ' 87 he wrote to
William Steinman who had really gone
deep on the Aztec crash, but also just
general kind of the whole org structure
of, you know, Majestic 12 and other sort
of, you know, um, uh, uh,
>> Steman revealed a lot of stuff. He's the
guy that found Walker.
>> Yeah. Uh he's the guy that found uh
Wang, this whole story about Wang.
>> Oh, I want to get into both
>> being being moved and and he's the guy
that phoned he he told me the story
about uh Bill Moore. So he he this Wang
had worked on the the system. He's in
the black ops, whatever. He's in the
legacy program and they move him to
Kirkland and then he's in Kirkland. He
dies. He's a heavy set guy. He dies of a
heart attack or something in 59. So
Steman finds out about him being moved
and he worked on the program. So he
phones his wife and he's talking to his
wife and asking her all these questions.
Steinman was ruthless. I mean he was one
of the best researchers I' ever seen.
>> He was also worked at skunk works and
was looking into this stuff. So much so
that his exe his superiors said you know
you can't look into this anymore. He
kept doing it. They fired him and then
he couldn't get a job. He was basically
blacklisted in aerospace after that.
>> Yeah. Yeah. He told me there was
helicopters following around and then he
got into the religious thing. He
believed there was some religious thing
that he had to pull and he just told me
don't don't call me again. I'm out. He
was like boom. He's gone. Just like
that.
>> He got into the What does that mean? He
got into the religion.
>> Well, he he it was sort of like he it
was against the religion or something
some sort of thing that it was against
what he believed his wife believed or
something like that that it had part to
do with why he had pulled out of but he
pulled out instantly. And I don't know
what happened to his files. He had
unbelievable files. So he was talking to
Mrs. Wang and then he gets a phone call
from Bill Moore and Bill Moore says,
"What are you talking to Mrs. Wang for?
leave her alone. And he said, "How do
you know I was talking to Mrs. Wang?"
And he said, "I'm just telling you,
leave her alone. Forget it." And they
said, "How do you know I was talking to
Mrs. Wang? Were you on the call?" And
then and then just come over to my house
on Wednesday night, something like that,
and I'll tell you. And that's when Bill
Moore tells a story about the CIA that
when he was at university, Bill Moore
spoke fluent Russian. So the Russians,
they recruited, what they do is they
recruit people in universities, the star
people, and they try to bring him in.
and Bill Moore spoke Russian and uh was
pretty smart guy and they recruited him
and what he told me is he said I didn't
work for them I did some work I did some
work for them but I didn't work for them
I just did
>> stuff but he was I mean because we all
know that he you know made this famous
speech at MUON and said that he was like
used by you know possibly like the
aviary this group that seemed to be
throwing people off the trail giving
people passage material that sort of
thing but I didn't know that he
literally admitted to Bill Steinman,
another UFO researcher, that the CIA had
recruited him essentially as an asset.
Yeah. And then we kind of know that he
was also monitoring Bill Steinman's
calls. So, he was literally keeping tabs
on
>> one call. The one call for sure.
>> One call at least. Probably others if
it's just that one. That's crazy.
>> Yeah. And then and then Bill Moore had
told him that uh when he got into the
UFO thing, he went back to his his
contacts in CIA to help him. That's how
he puts the thing together.
>> That makes sense. So here's here's my
question then.
>> You know, Bill Moore is kind of largely
responsible for the Roswell story being
resuscitated along with St.
>> That's why they grabbed that's why they
went after him.
>> Seven days after he he went on the
Pelici tour, he got the first phone call
and that was probably from Dodie at
Albuquerque and said, "You're the only
guy that knows what you're talking
about." So the intelligence knows how to
drag people in. Bill Moore had a super
ego. He really thought he was smart and
he was smart.
>> He was really smart. I I think they also
I think they probably got to him before
that. The the reason I think that is cuz
he wrote the book about the Philadelphia
experiment
>> with with Yeah.
>> Well, let me actually think was that
after or before Roswell. It was before,
right? So,
>> Towns and Brown, I think, is really part
of like a lot of the core secret of all
this stuff because it deals with the the
science that I think is usable in the
human context, which is kind of
anti-gravity. And they wrote this whole
thing about the Philadelphia experiment
which a lot of people don't know because
it's a lore and it seems so insane you
know primaacia the surface level story
is that a ship was zapped from a port in
Norfol Virginia to you know Philadelphia
and there was people on board and some
ended up melded to the hull and you know
they experienced sort of time you know
displacement and stuff and we know
actually towns and brown uh you know
moved from from Northf Folk Virginia to
LA actually to work at Martin Vega
Corporation which was pre- Loheed Martin
around that time. We also know he
suffered a nervous breakdown around that
time and he ran the project. It was a
real project.
>> So I wonder if uh Moore's coverage of
that somehow, you know, poked the bear a
little bit and then they came back and
said, "Hey, why don't you why don't you
do some work for us?" or something like
that.
>> Moore would have had a unbelievable file
on Townsen. I mean, he he was he was
pretty good. I mean, he interviewed the
top scientist at uh um Wright Patterson.
He had a lot of interviews that uh and
he put these people all together. They
were coming to help him.
>> So, they got the first phone call said,
"You're the only guy who knows who
you're talking about." And of course,
Bill Moore said, "That's right." And
then then he a couple days later they
he's on a radio show and they said,
"There's a call for you." And then it's
a guy from uh from uh uh Offet Air Force
Base.
>> He said, "The only guy knows what you're
talking about." And this happened like
within 10 days he had these two phone
calls. And then Bill said, "Yeah, I'm
guy. I'm no guy that knows what's going
on." And I had a name of that guy. It
escapes me, but we had a guy, he was the
same guy that I think leaked the
document um about the uh nuclear missile
bases in late 1975.
So in late October 1975, in November,
you had Luring Air Force Base, uh
Wartzsworth Air Force Base, Minard Air
Force Base, Holland Air Force Base, all
with UFOs over them. And one of the
stories people don't know that Travis
was taken on November the 5th to the
10th. Every night that Travis was gone,
there was a UFO over a nuclear missile
or a nuclear weapon storage area in the
United States. Every night he was gone.
>> Whoa.
>> And so this is this really heavy period
of time when they had these these these
nuclear uh things going on. 75 was a big
time. Bud Hopkins got involved.
>> The phenomena dragged him into it. I
want to I want to stick real quick
because there was one loose thread there
with uh Steinman. Yeah. Who is this
amazing UFO researcher and so he uh
approaches Maria Wang who's Eric Henry
Wang's wife. And Eric Henry Wang is this
really interesting character because if
you read Steinman's book UFO Crash, you
know, at Aztec, uh he talks about Wang
being the one guy where when he kind of
knocks on the door there, uh you know,
everything goes dark. And people always
say, "Don't don't talk about Wing." And
Wang leads special projects at Wright
Airfield, uh but he seems to have been
kind of scrubbed from the internet. Then
he moves down to Kirtland Air Force
Base. uh a researcher friend of mine has
actually spoken to his daughter. Wow.
And she also said, well, you know, she
originally she's like, I don't think
there's anything to the UFO stuff. And
then she goes, it's interesting that all
this stuff is coming out now. Like
implying that she kind of knows a little
bit more and she's extremely religious.
So maybe, you know, through kind of
getting to Wang, Steinman somehow
stumbled into the sort of religion. Do
you have any idea what that what that
religious thing is? No, it just seems
like it it I think his wife was involved
or something
>> where he was under a lot of pressure and
he was talking about the helicopters
following him and he was really paranoid
at at the end. He just uh had this idea
that they were going to they were going
to get him and and uh I'm out and he I
don't know what happened to his files.
Same as Bill Moore's files. I know a lot
went to um Greg Bishop,
>> but all his files I mean Mo's files
would have been because he was a smart
guy and he documented everything
>> and uh I don't know what happened to all
that material. So he would have had a
file in Wang. He would have a file
anything he want. Moo was really uh
thorough in doing an investigation. It
wouldn't be one or two phone calls. He
was almost like Stanton where he had
massive files and then he pulled out the
same as uh uh Steinman. He just suddenly
boom, he was gone. He came back for a
couple interviews and I tried to get an
interview with him and and of course
then the ego came back. I said, you
know, I'd like I'm coming to California.
Can I do an interview? He said, Grant,
if I didn't figure it out, nobody's
going to figure it out. Give it up.
>> And who is this? This is Bill
>> Bill.
>> Yeah. Interesting.
>> But he was he was a really sharp guy. I
I And I knew him all the time. I never
thought he was lying.
>> He has an interview also with John Trump
who's Donald Trump's uncle.
>> Wow. Cosmic Conspiracy. No, it's it's on
video. I think I think he did a lot of
research on on John Trump who
>> also probably was knowledgeable about
all this stuff. He was at the MIT Rad
Lab and there was like an official LBJ
investigation, right, that you were kind
of a part of. Is that right? Okay, I'll
tell you the story. So, a girl contacts
me and she said, "I've got I got some
files." And what had happened was um
James McDonald, who was the sort of the
main guy who testified in front of the
UN and Congress and stuff like that. He
was a guy out of University of uh
Arizona and he's got a massive
collection. I went through his
collection and tried to he was good
friends with Arthur Lundal who was head
of the weird desk and he but it was
mostly just like
>> what's the weird desk? The weird desk is
supposedly the place at the CI where all
the weird stuff comes in. All the
paranormal stuff. And it's UFOs, it's
paranormal phenomena, psychic, you know,
remote viewing, all that kind of stuff.
It's it's
it seems like a small desk. Like Kit
Green said he only spent 10% of his
time.
>> It's like the X Files or the CIA.
>> The really weird stuff.
>> What's this guy's name?
>> Arthur Lundall. Lund. And then it became
Kit Green. Then it became Ron Penduli.
Now Ron Pendalf's retired. I'm not sure
who it is then now.
>> Interesting. Yeah. So, this is is the
and this is sort of the the guys that
that sort of ran it. Anyway, the girl
contacts me and she said, "I've got
there's a guy did a they did a study and
the guy's name I think it was Rand." So,
she sends me all his credentials, his
passes for the White House and stuff
like that. And the girl her friend had
the document her and the the book. So,
they'd written a book. This guy was
going to write a book on this on this
this uh study that President Johnson had
done. and she took a photographs of a
hundred pages of maybe 250 pages. So,
she sent me those pages and I said, "Can
you get the rest of it?" And nothing
really happened on the rest of it. I'm
not sure what it what it was, but I got
the 100 pages. And it does have the
conclusion. And the conclusion is
basically the idea that UFOs exist.
They're they're actual uh metal and
doesn't say much more after that. You
know, that we don't really know. It's
just Yeah, that's right. And then
apparently uh Johnson had said now go
tell uh go tell um uh the the researcher
to go to hell. I've done because they
were into SS the supersonic transport
thing and this guy was against it. There
was all this debate whether we should
have supersonic transports and stuff
like that. So James McDonald was putting
pressure on the president to do a UFO
study. And then you can actually see in
the big case where the UFOs lands in the
schoolyard in Australia, he's actually
there. He's interviewing people at that
and he actually mentions the fact he's
working on a presidential study. So that
sort of backs up what they said.
>> Wait, Lyndon Bane Johnson was at
>> No, no, the James McDonald.
>> James McDonald. The study was being done
for James McDonald. He was putting
pressure on the president. So they did
this and the weird thing about it was if
you take a look at the people that were
on the on the panel, head of the weird
desk,
>> uh head of skunk works,
>> uh two star general at Rish Air Force
Base, uh the head of NRO, it's basically
Tom Delong's list 20 years.
>> Sounds a lot like the Stars Academy
>> 30 years before. It's like the same list
of people that that it's like this is
we're going to do this thing. We're put
them in it. It's unbelievable when you
compare those two lists that that's it's
like a panel. the same panel goes every
time.
>> It was like an executive review panel or
>> and and these are the guys that were
working on it and like head of NRO and
and Arthur Lundall was I heard stories
from Eric Davis. Arthur Lundall was just
obsessed and he was friends with James
McDonald. So when I went to James
McDonald's files of course I'm looking
for Arthur Lundall and there was this
whole bunch of files and I found some
more someplace else and then uh I guess
I was talking to people whatever and
suddenly Hell Puff contacts me. says,
"Here you got a uh list of uh documents
from Arthur Lundal photo, you know,
letters and stuff." I said, "Yeah, could
I get a copy of that?" Said, "Yeah,
sure." I sent him the copy. So, he knows
who Arthur Lendall is. You know, he was
they heard that I had this collection of
stuff.
>> I wonder if they interacted. I mean, put
off was obviously, you know, working
with the CIA at at points.
>> Yeah. I don't know. That's that's the
thing. and and uh
>> if he was working the weird desk in 75.
I mean put off as running Stargate in '
72, which is the CIA psychic spy
program. So I imagine they interacted.
>> Yeah. His Londall was famous. His famous
thing was the the channeling of the the
alien at at uh at the photograph
national photographic interpretation
center. And that's where they analyze
all the U2, the SR71, all the the spy
photographs come through there. And it
was the most highly classified CIA
building in Washington. And what they
did is they put it above a an old broken
down car dealership in the slumiest area
of Washington so the Russians would
never find it. They would not realize
it's on this upper floor. And the people
around there thought that they were
printing money because there's so much
security around the building. They
thought the government was up there
printing money in this building. And and
what happened was it came out of Wilbur
Smith. So Wilbur Smith was basically
doing what I'm doing, what a lot of
research is doing. He's trying to find
people who are contacting the aliens. So
he had all these various people that
were claiming they were having contacts
like a damsky Williamson all these
people even even towns and brown he may
have had some correspondence. He had all
his correspondents coming in from all
over the place and um he had the his
main woman was was a woman named Francis
Swan. So Francis Swan lived in Elliot
Maine which is really weird. She lived
basically down the street from from
Betty Hill. And uh so she's in the
blondes like the good aliens and you
know they're the the apha one that she
saw. He came one time when she was
putting up decorations at a at a um a
Halloween thing and he she thought he
was gorgeous and stuff and she starts to
get this guy channeling and then Navy
intelligence picks up on this woman and
they go and visit her in 1954 and uh
then they come back and it goes in the
file. Nothing happens till 59. Then they
decide their story was they're going
back to to get airtime. They fly back to
see her again and that's when this whole
thing happens and Wilbur Smith is using
her as well. So you can see the the
documents from from Francis Swan. If you
go FBI Navy intelligence, they'll have
this one document and you can tell
Wilbur Smith is there and they're
talking and what Wilbur wants him to do
is overfly uh Ottawa on October on
August the 1st, 1954. And she's saying
to AFA, okay, and he's going to fly over
over top of this. He builds this flying
saw observatory has five different
instruments in there ra you know for you
know radiation noise all these different
things he's registering and it happens a
week later it happens on the 8th the
thing comes flying over and I was talked
to one of the guys who was in the
building at the time and he said all the
bells went off and the the thing went
right off the chart and they all went
running out it was overcast so they
couldn't see what it was and Wilbur of
course was very famous at the time even
in the states and he put out a statement
and said um uh if We if there's nothing
wrong with the equipment, we just detect
the first flying saucer over Ottawa.
Boom. Shut down Project Magnet. Said we
didn't discover anything. Wilbur can use
the equipment, but he's not allowed to
make statements on behalf of the
government. And game over. Wild.
>> Who do you think came over the top of
him? Because if he's running the like
basically NSA of Canada, do you think it
was like the American?
>> It would be whoever like whoever's at
the top would say Oman Slant or somebody
like that would say
>> who's Oman Slant. He was head of the
weapons for the Canadians. He was
Vanavar Bush's equivalent. So Vanvar
Bush did all the atomic bomb, proximity
fuse, jets, jet engines, plastic
explosives, all the World War II
inventions. And what happened there is
is once they developed all those things
in World War II, they said, "Hey, this
is a great way because what they were
doing is they're grabbing professors
instead of sending them to war with a
gun."
Sarbacher called them dollar a year men.
So they'd give them a dollar and during
their their summer when they're off for
seven five months they would work on
things. So uh Eric Walker would build
the the proximity the uh uh torpedo the
homing torpedo all these inventions and
Vanavar Bush was running all this stuff
with all these professors they pull out
of university and then they realized
this is a great way to do it. So he set
up this research and development board
to develop weapons and and that's that
it before World War II, the Americans
really didn't have much in terms of
inventions
>> and explain. So you have Arthur Lendal
who's running the CIA weird desk. Yeah.
>> Which is, you know, he's seeing all the
the most paranormal strange stuff coming
across his desk. And then who is Francis
Swan exactly?
>> Okay. So Francis Swan is a channeler out
of Elliot, Maine.
>> So he is working with a channeler.
>> Well, he's working he's working there's
these two Navy guys and one guy's
connected to the CIA. He's got a a CIA
pass. So he knows Lundel's into this
whole thing. So in 59 these guys fly
back and they say we're flying back to
get air time and for their ticket or
whatever. And so they fly back and then
she says, "Well, why have to do it for
you? Why don't why don't I just to show
you how to do it?" And the guy says,
"Okay." And I can't remember what the
guy's name was. We've got his name. But
he sits down in the chair. She puts his
hand on she puts her hand on his right
shoulder and suddenly he starts
channeling. He starts They're doing the
automatic writing. He starts automatic
writing and they go, "Holy cow." And
he's like, "Wow." And he goes running
back and of course where does he go? He
goes first place headstart Lundal who
runs the National Photographic
Interpretation Center. That's his main
job. So go back and say Art we this
woman taught me how to channel. I said
fantastic. Sit down. And this is where
this memo that Jack Malle gave me. It's
11 pages and it's this document that h
what happened in this meeting and I
think it was July 9th 1959. So the guy
comes back they sit him down in the
chair. They start asking him all these
questions and and they they this is all
transcribed and do you favor a world
religion? No. with this question, this
question and question. And then Arthur
Lundall says, "We'd like some proof."
And then the guy goes from automatic
writing to voice. Says, "What do you
want?" He said, "I'd like you to show
yourself when now go to the window." And
they go to the window and this flying
saucer goes flying across in front of
the capital.
>> And the commander, still in a trance,
told them to go to the window and they
would have proof. The group moved to the
window where they supposedly observed a
UFO.
And then they called in Robert Friend
who was running Blue Book and they it's
an emergency meeting. They said you got
to come see this and and they call him
in. He flies in from Ray Patterson and
they set up set up the Chandler again.
They set up this guy and they do the
same thing again. They make the contact.
>> He sat for several minutes and then
appeared in a deep trance with his
Adam's apple moving up and down rapidly.
>> And then they say, "We'd like you to
show yourself. The time isn't right. Uh
I'm busy. The time isn't right." And
they shut down. So friend goes back to
Ray Patterson. He talks to his uh
commanding general and he said this
woman is unbelievable. This guy is
Adam's apple moving up and down. He says
something's going on here. We should we
should investigate this woman and see
what's going on here. And then the
general says another agency has it hands
off. And we never hear anything more.
But Arthur Lundall in these
conversations with uh uh Dr. uh
McDonald, James McDonald, is talking
about this woman. You can you can tell
he's talking about this woman. this
amazing case with this woman
>> and she is somehow Lendal is in
communication via her with like Towns
and Brown and some of these other
scientists or Lendal is directly in
communication with Town
>> Well, Lendell's gathering the material
like he's basically you know gathering
all the material from around
>> do you know he was in touch with Towns
and Brown?
>> No, I don't know. but with a lot of
experiencers.
>> Not experiencers. He was in like James
McDonald. Okay. He had a lot of McDonald
would go to Washington. They go for
dinner and they would talk and stuff
like that. And he was in in he was
running this operation with this with
this channeler.
>> And I heard stories about when he was
dying, he was talking about uh really
weird stuff that he'd never talked about
before and stuff like that. He was just
uh it was sort of like part of his job
and he was like the the guy that went
into Kennedy's office. So when Kennedy
had the Cuban missile thing, they do the
briefing and they come in and he's got
the board and he said, "This is a
missile. This is a missile launcher."
That was Art Lundal and he got an award
from Kennedy for that.
>> You mentioned the 1964 uh Vandenberg
sighting, Bob Jacobs. This famous case,
you know, I've interviewed him. I find
him to be extremely credible. I actually
just interviewed a guy named Richard
Barth who the same month in September of
1964 was stationed at Vandenberg Air
Force Base and was abducted and taken on
a craft while he was guarding a missile
station.
>> I was just terrified and next thing I
know I'm out, you know, and I don't know
if I passed out or it's just blank at
that point. Then I come to and I'm
inside this it's a circular room.
>> So pretty wild kind of you know and
maybe it was the same thing. Um, there
is apparently footage of this Bob
Jacobs, you know, this, you know, UFO
wrapping around this dummy nuclear
warhead and Atlas 5 missile. Is that
right? And
>> yeah,
>> I I think I actually sent you audio of
uh I got it from Bob Amgger.
>> Okay.
>> So Bob Amger was a producer in he worked
for Gray Advertising, which according to
lots of people is a front company for
the CIA
>> and the story was
>> is that Gordon Gron Gray or
>> I'm not sure it was Gray Advertising. So
that they ran the UFO past, present,
future.
>> Okay.
>> UFOs UFOs that has begun.
>> Yeah.
>> The famous 19 um 88 documentary just
before Reagan left and the story was
Reagan allowed the the whole thing about
the Falcon and the Condor to come out
and the alien at Wright Patterson Air
Force Base. That was UFO cover up live
and they had to brought in live feed
from Russia in 1989. And that was great
advertising out of New York and the
rumor was that they were behind this.
Bob told me the story that that some guy
had messed up a documentary on the
Vietnam War. So they came to him and it
was actually Alan Sandler. So it was Bob
Amminer and then Alan Sandler owns the
studio and Bob says I was the guy did
all the work. I did all the music for
the thing. I did he wrote the book which
was big bestselling book p UFOs past,
present and future and uh he just um
Ellen Sandler just made the connections
with the CIA and stuff like when
Burroughs was regressed he they were
they wanted to do the aggression they
said what are we going to do and he said
Ellen said hang on he goes in the next
room I got guys I got two guys and they
were CIA is regressionists that that
regressed uh um Bros from the runners
from forest case and they were involved
in They never put it in their
documentaries, but they they had this
this tape. So anyway, um so Bob had was
getting all this material and he had
sort of gotten authorization. He'd been
called to Norton Air Force Base in about
1973.
He was connected to Hollowman who was
the chief of staff for Nixon. He'd gone
to school with him. He's Hollowman was
one year older.
>> Oh, Halddederman. Yeah.
>> Yeah. But he knew him and he knew the
guy head of communications. And um so he
gets this deal. They go to Norton Air
Force Base. Paul Shardles, the security
manager, comes out and he says, "We want
you to do this documentary on dolphins.
We want you to do this documentary on 3D
holography." And we looked bad in the
Vietnam War. We want to reestablish the
American as a good military is a good
thing and stuff like that. And that's
what they were doing, these eight
documentaries. And that's when he says,
"And we'd also like you to do this other
documentary on UFOs, but we'd like you
to hide it below the other eight
documentaries." And Bob says, "Ufos? Are
you kidding me?" And then he's and the
guy says, "Yeah, real foes. You want to
do UFOs?" And the guy said, 'Well, yeah,
it's real. And he tells about the the
landing. And then Bob's going, "I can't
believe it. For all these years I've
been saying, Margaret, his wife, she's
really into UFOs and all this sort of
stuff." He says, "Margaret, will you
quit reading those tabloids of the alien
had my baby? This is so embarrassing."
And then he says, "Suddenly, he's
telling me this is for real." And so he
goes, "Whatever." You know, so they they
go and then he said they get access to
anything they want. He said they walked
in the Pentagon. They didn't sign in.
They walk in the Pentagon and just walk
right in and and and then the guy said
in the Pentagon, he said, "You guys you
guys are causing us trouble. You the
phone lines light. Every time you idiots
do something like this, the phone line
lights up and we have to deal with all
this stuff." And then Allan Sanders
says, "What the hell are you talking
about? You guys invited us here." And
then the guy shut up. And so they had
all this access and they were dealing
with Coleman who was the uh spokesman
for Blue Book at the Air Force, Colonel
Coleman. And um they'd been given the
Halman Air Force Base film which is this
famous story that uh the landing this
thing landed. It's the basis of Close
Encounters of the Third Kind. That's
where Close Encounters of the Third Com.
They have three UFOs. They come over
Halddederman. Uh the two move off, the
one lands, the door opens. Uh according
to some people, they had flown in
generals for this for this event. They
knew it was going to happen. It was
being filmed from a helicopter. Linda
House had four different locations they
were filming this thing. And um the bean
gets out.
>> How did they know it was going to
happen?
>> Uh they had this is comes from 59 that
all the time there was a story back in
the ' 50s that the American military
through the fighter jets were using
lights. They were trying to communicate
with lights to make contact. They always
been trying to make contact. And this is
a very sensitive subject. If you've seen
the last interview with um uh James uh
Latsky, he does a interview a couple
months back and they ask him, "Have we
had communication?" and he said, "I
can't talk about that."
>> Has there, to your knowledge, been any
contact at a government level with any
non-human intelligence beings? Yes or
no?
>> I can't make a statement on that.
>> Do you know?
>> I can't make a statement on that either.
>> Oh, that's a rough one.
>> And then we asked Walker, Dr. Eric
Walker, we'll get into, but we asked
Walker, who I think is the highest level
contact anybody's ever had. We said to
Walker, "Has there ever been
communication?" We promise not to tell.
That's what he said 30 years ago. We
promised not to tell. So this
communication thing seems to be very
very touchy that they've made
communication. But you can see there the
Francis Swan thing and then the Hullman
thing that they're making success that
they're making these contacts there
somehow.
>> So they land in 1964 at Holland airport.
>> Two different stories. So Bob told me
absolutely it was May of 1971 and then
Richard Dodie comes up and says no no no
it was it was 64 at White Sands and they
got lost. I'm going oh come on. And then
so what happens is Linda starts telling
the 64 story. I'm saying, "No, it's 71."
And that's what happens in in this world
is you put two different stories out and
then me and Linda start we didn't fight,
but we're I'm right, you're wrong. It
was 71. Bob says it was 71. It was 6:00
in the morning. He seemed to have all
the details of of of what was going on.
And uh he actually knew where this thing
had been parked. They parked the UFO in
a hanger. So he he talks about when they
when they're doing the filming in 75,
they say, "We'd like to go to Holland.
They'd like to go to H Hall Hollerman
and film." So they for up and the base
commander goes, "You want to do what?
You want to come on? This is a top
secret base. You're crazy. You're not
coming on my base." And they hang the
phone. They had this Verona guy. They
had a guy, I think it was a major, a
major Verona who was in the Pentagon who
was their guy that moved stuff around,
made calls and stuff like that. And they
also had a guy by the name of Betsky. He
was a CIA guy that Bob told me was on C.
He was there every time they filmed. He
was there the whole project. This guy
was there sitting there. didn't say what
he was doing. Dick Betsky guy had his
his card and stuff like that. So this
other one was the uh u it was Betsky and
then this uh uh second guy where they're
um
uh doing doing this the filming and
stuff and uh Bob says they they they he
goes to Coleman to get the the film this
Halman Air Force Base film which in the
end when when it came to the end I said
Bob you know it's kind of weird you know
if it weren't for if it weren't for the
location and the time of day this is
this story sounds exactly like Call of
Close and Com of Third Kind. And he
said, "I didn't tell you." And he said,
"No, he didn't tell me what I didn't
tell you. I gave a copy to Spielberg." I
said, "No, he didn't tell me that." So
the documentary came out in 75.
Spielberg's Close Encounters of the
Third Kind came out in 77. It's the same
story.
>> Has has Spielberg seen the Hollowman Air
Force
>> He gave them the copy of the the the
documentary. At least they documentary.
And he said, "I told you Annie Spielberg
worked on our production crew. She was a
line producer or something on his on the
production." was Steven Spielberg's
wife.
>> Sister
>> sister.
>> Whoa.
>> And and so he said, "I told you." And
then he says to me, he says, so he came
up with Close Encounters of Third Kind.
And then he said, Stephen Spielberg's
mother came to me. He says,
>> "Bob, I've seen your version of the
landing and I've seen Steven's version
of the landing. And I like Steven's
version better." So there was this whole
idea, you start to wonder where these
stuff is coming from. It's being fed
because there's this whole story that
the beings come out and there's an
exchange and that gets into the whole
Serpo thing.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
>> What was Yeah. And the I mean the story
the Holman story is so fascinating. It's
like these kind of tall Nordic looking
beings with like Egyptian garb or
whatever.
>> So to make a long story short, three
craft UAP craft UFO craft came in. One
of them landed not on the runway but on
the tarmac close to a u a hanger. The
other two took off and uh a gang way
cames down extended down and down comes
a humanoid looking very tall uh NHI
being uh he looked of northern European
descent. So he goes and meets with them
and they go into that hanger. So this
film was made of it and this story has
circulated at various times. Uh uh the
defense audiovisisual agency under the
command of two uh retired generals. One
of those two generals said that they got
intercepted and convinced them not to
allow Ble and Heinik to see that film.
I've changed my mind. I used to say
there was 8 seconds of film. And I said
to Bob, "Bob, there's 8 seconds of film
in there.
>> Why would they give you that?" You told
me you took it back. Yeah, they took it
back. I said, "There's 8 seconds of film
in there, Bob. Why would they give it?"
He said, "It didn't show anything." I
said, "Well, it doesn't." He said, "It
wasn't up close. You couldn't see the
aliens or whatever." And then some guy
came out about a year ago and put out a
documentary with the high def version of
that thing and he said it was an F4 and
I go it's not an F4. No way. But it
didn't make any sense because it was
just this object coming over the hill.
So there is a little snippet of the
video that does make it into uh UFOs
past, present, and future. Yeah. And
that's this thing that got like debunked
online like a year or two ago. And I
thought the debunk was pretty good.
>> This DVD, however, was a gamecher. I
quickly fast forwarded to the landing
footage and was momentarily stunned by
what that extra detail revealed.
It's a plane.
The details are faint, but the wings and
landing gear are unmistakable.
>> Okay, but here's the full story. So,
when I I said no, but then when I saw
the high deaf, it is it does look like
an F4. I said it's an F4. And then I got
a phone call from a guy named Michael
Luckman. I don't know if you know him.
He was a producer out of uh uh New York
City, dealt all with Michael Jackson,
all these big things. And he wrote a
book on on music, UFOs and music, and I
wrote the book right after him on UFOs
and music. So, he wrote the book and
then um he comes to me, we're talking
because I'm we're both doing the music
books and stuff like that. He's doing a
second book on music. And he comes to
me, he says, "The hoax the whole thing."
I said, "What do you mean the hoax the
whole thing?" He said, "Look at this."
And I've sent you the photo. I've sent
you the photo out of the British Museum.
It's the It's exactly the being that it
was drawn by. I said, "How how did how
do they know how to draw it?" And he
said, "The guy who my storyboards, he
drew it." So Charlotte described the
being and his storyboard guy was drawing
the being. And that's what they draw. It
is identical. And he and I go, "Holy
cow, it is identical." So I went to Bob.
I said, "Hey Bob, what's the deal here?
You you have this pi picture in your
book of this being and it's in a British
museum. It's exactly the same being. It
has even has a staff." And he says,
"Well, I'll ask Allan." So you ask Allan
and his correspondence starts going back
and forth. He says, "We'll sue the ass
off." He says, "Allan was just furious.
We're gonna sue them and this sort of
stuff." And that's where it sort of
died. But then I started to
>> wait. So So the whole thing was fake.
>> They were given So they were given they
they had to storyboard it. So they were
given the film, then they had to pull
the film back. Then they said, "You got
to storyboard the thing, make up the
story." So it starts this may have
happened in the future, may have
happened in the past and then they do
this hypothetical as this thing comes
down.
>> So the video so the video in UFOs past
them fake.
>> It was given to them by the Pentagon.
They said we were given this because
they said we're why he said well that's
what they gave us
>> and the Pentagon storyboarded out this
>> well they he did the whole story and
then they got the 8 seconds which I
assumed was from the from the actual
video but it doesn't make any sense
because the original video the story is
there's three UFOs come in and then the
one drops. This is just a single video.
Your your take is that there is a real
event.
>> Oh, absolutely.
>> Sandler and Emger did see the real
video.
>> Sandler saw it for sure. He describes it
essentially came out with this
storyboarded fake version of it,
>> but they they may not even known it was
fake. They were given that 8 seconds
video and they didn't know. And of
course, Shardle is describing to the
>> which is an age-old intel tactic where
you you send something which especially
at the time if you look at that F4
video, it looks like a UFO, you know,
like that's going to be hard to debunk
then and sort of stays in this sort of
liinal space.
>> That's what they do. They did with
Lazar. They put Lazar out there and
waited for him to blow up. They knew he
was going to blow up. And that's that's
what they do is they put something in
there that'll discredit the case. And
once it gets discredited, then you get
the story out, but you don't spill the
milk. once you spill the milk and
actually make a statement as to what
actually happened, you can't put it
back.
>> So, you inoculate the public from the
truth. You you actually
>> it's that whole rand thing from the
1960s that if you don't desensitize
people, it's all going to fall apart.
>> So, UFO World, you know, especially
intel world, uh, saw that strategy is
somewhat effective. And there's a
there's a Rand paper about this where if
you put out a conspiracy that is uh
basically like the truth, but you muddy
it up and put kind of falsities in it.
You put out the truth and then you
debunk it and then you're crazy if you
believe this stuff and it and it's kind
of debunked for good. Like it's it's
kind of radioactive if anybody else
wants to look at it going forward. Is
that
>> right? But it still keeps going. The
story keeps re being retold. Whatever
the story is, people don't believe it,
but it just keeps going. Keeps going.
But but then that makes things like the
Bob Lazar story really important because
they they're they are true and so so not
falling prey to the the strategy is
actually like looking into the Bob Lazar
story and realizing that this actually
happened in your opinion or what
>> well remind me to go back to the film at
Vandenberg but the bizarre thing my
interpretation and Nap said he thought
and John Leer told me he thought my
version was the closest I think it was
>> well real quick just before you get into
that film at Vandenberg does it exist
now because Lou Alzando, you know, said
that uh in an interview with me like,
you know, a couple years ago,
>> so you've seen the video.
>> Yeah.
>> So, you know this is a real thing.
>> Yeah.
>> Oh my god.
>> But I don't know what to make of it. Do
Do you think that?
>> Okay. So, I gave you the clip of Bob
Eman talking about it. So, what happened
was Bob had all this film and then so
I'm talking to him about they sent the
film back and then he said, "We got film
from NASA. We photographs all this sort
of stuff." And I said, "So, you sent the
Hullman thing. Did you send the uh the
other stuff? Remember you talked about
that film about uh Vandenberg where they
uh shot down the missile? He goes,
"No, I don't think we sent that one
back." And I go, "You didn't send it
back?" I said, "Where is it?" And he
said, "I guess it's in Alan Sandler's
vault." I said, "Really?" And and he
said, "Yeah, I'll ask Allan." So he
comes back and he says, "Yeah, yeah,
Allan's got it." And then as I so I was
at the time I was working on a book on
the presidents which we never did with
with Angela Joiner who broke the
Stevensville Texas story and ended up
losing her job and never worked again
after she lost her job. And uh so I was
working with her and um I said Angela we
got this film. We know I know what this
film is. If we get it off Sandler man we
be famous man. This will be the
unbelievable film. He's got the film. So
she was good friends with with with uh
Bob Aman and Bob liked her and stuff
like that. So they made this deal an
Angela Joiner could go to Oregon to
Sandler and he would show her the video
but she had to go by herself. I couldn't
go and there was always this story that
Sandler liked women and stuff and so
heard this rumor and she really didn't
want to go by herself. So then it came
down and then so she decided I I'll tell
James Fox. So she told James Fox about
it and then James Fox said really? So
then he went and he contacted Ellen
Sandler and then Ellen said, "If you if
you want it, it's 25,000 bucks to use in
your your documentary." I think that was
to use in the documentary. So, uh, James
went around recruiting and suddenly got
the 25,000 bucks. He went back and he
said, "Okay, I got 25,000 bucks. Can I
use the film?" And he said, "No, I
talked to my lawyer." My lawyer said,
"You got lots of money. You don't need
25,000 bucks. This will ruin your life.
Forget it. You don't you turn it down.
You don't need 25,000 bucks." So he
said, "No, I'm not going to do it." And
so James went to they were dealing with
Congress. So they went to the I don't
know who it was in Congress, these
congressional committees and he said,
"This guy's got a classified film. It's
top secret. Quintel his name is on the
cover of this thing. It's top secret. It
still belongs to the government. He's
got a an illegal film." And so then it
was the deal with they'd go back to
Sandler and and Congress was going to go
back and say, "You have to turn over the
film and we're going to get the film and
the Congress is going to release the
film." And then James said the deal, he
felt the deal with Congress was that
he'd get a copy of the film for his
documentary in exchange for them him
helping move the film. So the film
>> I guess is still in Sandler's vault.
>> Where does Sandler live?
>> In Oregon.
>> Interesting.
>> Yeah. And and so he's he's got that. So
and Bob talks about that. They brought
in uh the guy that did the analysis for
um the Robertson panel. Yeah. And he
viewed it and he said it's one in a
million. So the video, it's reported
that the video is actually really
amazing. Like it's a really incredible
video.
>> Yeah. And they brought they brought in
an analyst
just let it out. You have the president
of the United States literally tweeting
saying, you know, we need to get to the
bottom of this. I've tasked Pete Hudsth,
the the the Secretary of War with
looking into UFOs, getting to the bottom
of this complex issue. Why doesn't
Sandler just put this thing out? He'd be
the people's champion. Yeah, that's
that's what I would but that's the thing
I found is I I like I've liked so many
documents and I'm saying does anybody
ever just leak a document? Am I the only
person that's leaking documents here?
And I know a lot of people are just
sitting on stuff for whatever reason. I
don't know why they're sitting on like
when I had the Wilson leak document when
I put that thing on the internet and
then I
>> How do you get your hands on the Wilson
Davis memo?
>> I was approached by uh James Riggney out
of Australia. So the way the the the
chain of comm of custody was Mitchell
had it. He had died. Everybody in the
family was interested in all the space
stuff because it was worth piles of
money and the files UFO stuff nobody was
interested in. So there was an aerospace
guy there um you know from Australia who
said well don't throw it out. I'll take
it. So he had this big pile of documents
and he takes it back to Australia and
James Riggnney is is going to visit this
guy seven hours away or something and
the guy says, "I got these documents
from the Edgar Mitchell collection and
he's looking through them like holy
cow." And he's he starts photographing
these documents. He keeps them for a
long I don't know how many years he has
them. He keeps them and then we're at
this conference together and um he gets
this vision in the middle of the night
that he should get this document out. So
he wakes up and he phones his wife. He
says, "Scan the document." The two
documents. I think the second is better
than the first. the the the the one that
everybody's interested in is the uh
Wilson leak document, but I like the
other one better. But anyway, he he gets
the doc first couple pages of the
document of the Wilson Leak document. He
puts it on a little iPad. So, he I'm
leaving the hotel. I'm going to Tucson
and uh I got to make it. I'm not on
time. And then he comes, he says, "Can I
can I show you something?" I said,
"Well, I'm kind of busy. I'm heading out
right now." And he said, "This is
important. Can I can I show you
something?" And I said, "Well, James,
you know, I got to be in Tucson at six
o'clock and all this other sort of
stuff." And he said, "10 minutes."
>> Said, "Okay, 10 minutes." So he says,
gives me the iPad. He walks off. I look
at the iPad, first page, I see Oak
Shannon or they now they some people
call him Oki Shannon. I I call him Oak
Shannon. I see Oak Shannon's name. I see
Eric Davis's name and I go, "Oh my god,
what's this is the real deal."
>> What is it?
>> Because because it's it's a document,
but I really didn't read I've never read
the document. I I I was going to put it
out. I never read the document. All I
was interested in was nobody in the
world knows who Oak Shannon is except
for me because Eric Davis had given me
his notes from the advanced physics
theoretical working group. So I knew who
Oak Shannon was and I knew he was the
real deal. And there's Eric Davis
talking and it starts on this stuff and
I'm going what am I going to do? Like I
got this thing. Should I try to
photograph it? Well, because he may not
give me the document when I come when he
comes back from wherever he went. should
I try to photograph this thing and you
know get it get it seritiously and then
he comes back and I said where do you
get this thing from and then he told me
the story and I said I'm putting out a
book next year do you think I could just
put it in the book and I won't say
nothing I just put in the book that's
how we got on the internet just put in
the book not say anything about it and
somebody's going to pick up on it it's
like where did this document come from
and then it it was sort of blow away
because my problem with the document
when I when I saw the two pages was bad
but when he sent it to me it was 15
pages song and I'm going, "Oh my god."
And it's like all the people I know all
the people in the document and it's like
now I'm going to go cut their throat and
I'm thinking, "Oh, I don't know if I
could do this." And that's where I've
got the lawyer and I'm going like, "I
don't know what to do with this thing. I
got to get on the internet without me
being in the middle of this because Eric
Davis is may, you know, like he may lose
his security clearance over this." And
and I'm thinking, "This is this is not
good." And then he sent me the alien
autopsy document and that had Kit Green
and and I'm going, "Holy shoot, all this
stuff." And then he sent me two other
documents. One was a condolence letter
to uh the guy who flew first guy flew
across the ocean, his wife,
>> Charles Lindberg.
>> Lindberg when he died, there was a
condolence letter that Edgar Mitchell
said. So that was one. Then there was
another one that talked about the
meetings, the NIS meetings, when they're
happening, all this sort of stuff. So he
gave me four documents. And so I I
trying to figure out what I was going to
do. And then some guy said I said, well,
in the end I said, okay, I'm I'm not
going to cover it up. anybody asked me
for the document because I was talking
about it, I they say, "Can I get a copy
of doc?" "Yeah, sure." And I give him a
cop. And then they would leak the
document and I would be sort of out of
my hands. So the one guy said, "Uh, can
I see it?" So I said, "Yeah." And so I
sent it to him and he was an AI expert.
And then he phones me. He said, "Let me
do let me deal with it." And then about
a month later, he phones me from. He
says, "I'm in an elevator in Chicago."
He said, "You know that document you
gave me?" I think it just went on the
internet. And it was on the internet for
months and months and months before
Dolan found it. It was on there. And
then when Dolan found it, of course, it
just blew up. And suddenly it was viral
and and there was all this thing about
it was hoax and all this sort of stuff
and we knew right away. I mean there's
there's no way this thing is hoax that
we knew exactly where they come from and
it it caused probably the biggest
break in the in the the whole thing that
it's real that there is actually a
legacy program and it's cut off from
high level people. If you don't have a
need to know you don't you don't get to
know. So that was that.
>> Yeah. The Wilson Davis memo definitely
sort of a revelation but also took place
after Bob Lazar. And so I want to talk
about Bob L Bazar because he's this
really important
>> guy who I think you know really is
leading modern disclosure in some ways
because you have all these highle guys
saying there's an existence of reverse
engineering crash retrieval programs now
as high up as the director of national
intelligence you know former DNA James
Clapper you know uh uh John Brennan you
know multiple CIA directors Woolsey
people like that now saying that this is
a thing but then no one seems to have
worked on the craft. except this one
guy, you know, from uh from 1989. And
so, uh you have a really interesting
theory about about Bob Lazar, and I'd
love to hear it.
>> Yeah. The way I looked at it, and John
sort of agreed with me, was um the
intention of the whole thing was the the
idea where you're doing this gradual
disclosure thing. So, you got to sort of
tell people, we have UFOs. So, people
sort of, yeah, yeah, they probably got
UFOs, probably working on it. But then
the idea we got crafts and that they had
them at Area 51. So basically they take
a guy who's a, you know, a pirate flag
over his over his house. He's got jet
engine cars. He's like totally crazy
man. You know, after the event he was
work doing computer work for the for the
the the prostitute and all that sort of
stuff. And he just looked like a wild
guy. And they figured the whole thing is
if you want to if you want it out, you
give it to the president to make a
speech. But they're not doing that. So
they give it to somebody whose
reputation is is really not that good.
And then the person puts a thing out and
uh it gets out and nobody believes it
but the story starts to float around and
it gets repeated and repeated and
repeated and then everybody says well
they got crafts at Area 51. Now uh so
what I believe happened was um the the
story about the uh Teller is right but
the thing is he phones Teller in
November and he's on the base December
the 6th and he's got a top secret Q
clearance. I mean, you can't get to
shops get clear Q clearance in 3 weeks.
There's no way. And it's almost like,
hey, let's put this guy on the base cuz
he he gets asked a question by teller,
do you want to work at Livermore or do
you want to work up at the site? And he
said, I'd like to work up at the site.
So, he gets that offer and he goes up
there and then exactly what I think they
intended him to do was he was friends
with John Leer. He first he didn't
believe anything John Leer said and then
suddenly he said, "Well, you know, uh,
may maybe this is true." And he starts,
you know, looking at it or whatever. And
uh when he gets up to there, he comes, I
think it's December the 6th. John Lair
tells me a story. I'm sitting there. He
says, "I'm writing checks." And uh Bob
Lazar comes in. He says, "John, it's
real." He said, "What do you mean it's
real?" "It's real. I've got it. It's up
to the site." He said, "Is it theirs or
ours?" He said, "It's theirs." He said,
"What the hell are you doing in my
house? You know, the the phone's going
to be tapped. You know, they're going to
be watching you. What are you crazy? Get
back. Go back to the site. Go back to
the site and come back in six months and
tell me what's going on." And then I
started looking at how how it unfolds.
So he comes in there and I train people.
So I know like you're training people,
you show them where the washroom is, you
know, the second day, second visit
there, he's getting he's getting these
documents. He's got like 125 documents
and he's reading all this stuff. It's a
need to know program. He's talked about
you couldn't talk to the guy across from
you and you it was so compartmentalized
but they give him all these documents
and tell them about all these programs
and the one that was gave it away was
the the idea that there had been this
shootout down below in in a base at
Dulce and that 64 special forces guys
got killed because they had arms and
they were not allowed to have arms and
the gray shot them and this this story
and Bob had one of the documents said it
happened at Area 51. I go, "Oh, they're
doing it again. They're they're putting
two stories out and and and this sort of
thing and uh so I said, "Well, what they
wanted is they wanted to show him." So
they take him to the site, they show him
all this kind of stuff and then they
bring him back to John Leer and they
want John Leer. John Leer is going to
tell the story and everybody at that
time knew John Leer was a wild card. He
was just, you know, off the rails.
People thought he was insane. And um you
know he's doing all the stuff with the
MJ12 and the underground bases and you
know you know people being assassinated
and all sorts of stuff he was into and
it was like John would tell the story
and everybody would go yeah it's John
Leer and listen to John Leer but the
story would get out and as Nap even
admits
>> so he was like the national inquirer at
the time.
>> Yeah they need the story out but they
needed plausible liability. They need
this thing to fall apart. So they they
have all the stuff like the the the
school and the the the all all the stuff
that would people would find out about
and uh it would discredit the story but
the story come out and that's where NAP
says well if this was a counter
intelligence operation it hung the guy
that that that that came up with it
because it it totally backfired because
what happened was and I I have a
different view I mean you guys are in
contact with Lazar you can confirm with
him but my understanding through Tim
Good who had interviewed him at the time
was that he only been at the base five
or six times. If you take a look at his
his W2 form from 1988, it's only 900
bucks.
>> He was there for a month. 900 bucks. He
can't be working full-time. And and so
the whole thing was my understanding, I
may be wrong, that according to good, he
had been to base five or six times. And
that in the beginning of the year, he
was no longer being called to the base.
And so he that's when he took John Leer
and and Huff and the wives and stuff.
They took the mo John Leer's motor home
and they went up there and they they
filmed this thing. And the thing was
that they filmed at 8:00 Wednesday night
or whatever it was Thursday night or
whatever. They tested the same time
every time. And this thing came up the
mountain and John filmed it on on
camera.
>> Well, I told John Leer, too. Yeah.
>> And you even brought them to
>> Oh, yeah. To see the test. Yeah. Because
I had the test flight schedule. Yep. So,
I know it's a Wednesday night. Yeah.
We're going out there and you guys are
going to see it.
>> This is John Lear and today is March
22nd, 1989. We're standing just about uh
8 miles due east of Groom Lake, Nevada,
the super government secret test site.
>> And uh the question is if if Lear if if
um Bob Lazar was he said a senior
scientist, we wouldn't have been a
senior scientist just starting. how why
would they tell him it's need to know if
he can't talk to the guy sitting across
why would they tell him when the test is
he wasn't being allowed up at the site
so that's why he got upset and that's
when he took people out and he said I'll
show you and he started taking people
out to the site and that's when he got
that's when they got caught the third
time and uh they bring him to Indian
Springs they put a gun to his head and
they said when so we told you this is
top secret didn't mean go tell your
friends and stuff they never fired him
so why did they not fire him they didn't
fire him lear tells the story he was
held at gunpoint point after he showed
Gina how the morning this Dennis guy
said
>> and they still didn't fire him.
>> They didn't fire him. They they they
they said because your wife is fooling
around uh you got psychological
problems. Uh we're going to pull they
pulled this clearance for a while or
something like that. But then he gets
invited back to the base and he's so
scared. He doesn't want to go back to
the base cuz he figures he remembers
this thing drinking this this stuff that
was really bitter and he couldn't
remember he didn't go and he figures if
I go on the base I'm never coming back.
So he turned them down. They invited him
back to the base after this event
happened. And that's the whole thing.
They wanted more stuff out.
>> Chris, is that true that he was still
invited back to the base?
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>> Chris, is that true that he was still
invited back to the base?
>> He got they took they took him to Dane
Springs and they they put the gun to his
head.
>> Told him told him when you said it was
top secret that they mean bring your
friends out to look at the test.
>> The question is, how do you know when
the test was? He's just a new guy and
it's all compartmentalized. I said,
"Well, how does he know where the test
is going to be?" And then the other
thing is that that he said they didn't
fire him. They just pulled a security
clearance for a period of time cuz his
wife was fooling around with the with
the aviation guy.
>> So there was a gap.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> And then they call him back to the base.
Exactly. And then he turns it down. So
he never did get fired. And if it's top
secret and he all this stuff, you'd fire
the guy on the spot, which means they
wanted to take him back on the base
because they they still need him to go
tell some more stuff out there in in the
in the public. They wanted some more
stuff out.
>> Wow. And maybe Tim Good is wrong, but
Tim Good said he was only there a couple
of times to the base and that's why he
brought people to the base. He was so
upset that he wasn't get called up to
the base.
>> To be clear, your view is that Bob Lazar
did work on genuine UFO craft.
>> He was there
>> that is not of human origin.
>> You just think that maybe one of his
superiors wanted this out, knew that he
was discreditable, and so kind of pushed
the thing out. And it was a counterintel
gone arai because it blew up way beyond
what they they never
when they got caught. Then then he had
this thing where
>> uh it happened by accident where uh
>> Nap calls up John Lear and he said I'm
missing a guest on tonight's show. They
pulled out. I need a live guest. Well,
you got that guy at the base. Let's put
him on camera. And then they do the back
thing with the Dennis where they put him
back lit and then it goes viral around
the world. Just blows up. And that's
what they didn't expect. They didn't
expect that a guy with all these Peabody
awards and Emmys and stuff would
suddenly do the story and it would
suddenly it's got credibility and goes
viral and that's where they had to they
had the the land where people were going
up this Bob Good Bobby Goodman was had a
radio show at the time and he it was
every night it was like coast to coast
everybody's listening this thing about
the bass and what's going on and the the
Lazar story and it was just viral and
then he was taking buses up on on the
weekend all these buses would go up and
sit up on top of the mountain and they
would actually watch the base they could
much things landing on the base and
stuff like that. So that's when Clinton
took all this land back. They made a
land grab to take more land away to
force people and make the base bigger.
So they were 25 miles away instead of 11
miles away from looking at the base.
>> They also brought him out to see a test
himself at the site.
>> Yeah.
>> He was he went under the craft and he
saw it flying above him and stuff.
>> And that's the thing they show you
different things like Bob Emir told me
this story the same thing. He told me a
bizarre story that DARPA when he was
doing UFOs past future, they took him
through DARPA and he was seeing all the
stuff they were doing, all the weird
stuff. And the one he said was a was a
room with a computer in it. And he was
in there and this guy was sitting at
this table and he said to the guy, he
said, "Tell Bob what you're doing. I
can't it's not clear. I can't tell him."
He said, "Tell him what you're doing."
He said, "I'm talking to this machine
with my mind."
And then Bob says, "Okay, tell him this
word." And the computer Bob says it was
like a voice like Stephen Hawkins like
well I can't remember what the word was
weather and he's holy cow this guy was
doing this test this is 1974 or whatever
and this guy's doing this mental thing
with this computer at DARPA and uh so
Bob said they he got these tours as well
of all these different uh weird things
that the military was doing and stuff
like that and they sort of wanted out
that they and that's why they use film
people because they want you to
fictionalize it
>> just tell the story and even if you get
everything wrong or Chase Brandon if you
remember the Chase Brandon Yeah, of
course.
>> So, Chase Brandon comes out and he
writes the Christos conundrum and then
he says he's going to write another book
on UFOs and the Christos conundrum was
the the idea of how did the CI handle
the Roswell crash and it went through
review according to some of the stories
eight times and it was like change this,
change that and it's the whole story
like if you say that you want to tell
your story, you're a spy, you saved the
world from nuclear attack. Yeah, you can
write your story just change the names,
change the dates.
>> Do you think other elements of that
story are true? So, this idea that uh
it's this guy Chalmer's, this
mathematical whiz. He's a part of the
OSA, which is an offshoot of the OSS,
you know, this precia organization in
the 40s. And they find this like crystal
tablet that reads timelines. there's a
committee that's brought together that
sounds a lot like the Majestic 12, this
elite military scientific, you know,
intelligence unit that like governs the
UFO issue, but that he almost goes in
and out of like liinal space where he's
like taught things by these beings and
then comes back and that sort of
determines how, you know, the government
operates at a really high level. Is that
do you think that any of the Because he
starts the book off with this Francis
Bacon quote that, you know, some truths
are so unbelievable that you have to
tell them in fiction. Exactly. He was
the guy the CIA guy in Hollywood. So,
>> and that's a pseudonym, by the way. We
don't know who Chase Brandon is.
>> And he's gone. He's disappeared. Yeah.
He's supposed to do the UFO book and he
didn't do it. But I quote I'll quote
what he said.
>> If you want a good read,
>> read my book.
>> If you want to learn something, read
between the lines.
>> So, he said that was his job is you're
doing a movie on the CIA. He comes to
you and says, "Hey, Jesse, I heard
you're doing a movie on the CIA." Yeah.
You ever been to CIA? I can take you to
the CIA. You could look through the CIA,
take it for a tour, and then you have a
better understanding of what we do. And
so it's like the idea instead of killing
you, they they walk you down the path
they want you to walk. They try to get
in front of the parade and lead you, and
they use these manipulation tactics to
get people going in the right direction.
So Chase Brandon was one of these people
who just sort of came out and and and
disappeared. It was this idea that uh
they they do control Hollywood. They do
come in and like like Eman said, there
was somebody on the set the whole time,
a CI guy never left the set. and that
the guy from communications uh that was
head of communications for Nixon phoned
him every single day while they were
taping every day.
>> Speaking of being, you know, pushed down
the wrong track by Intel.
>> Yeah.
>> I think a lot of the people who have
been at the forefront of disclosure for
the last 10 years or so seem to be
really excited that Trump is making an
announcement. And it's it's interesting
to me that it it almost feels like their
plan is being sort of executed in some
ways. Do you find any like daylight
between the way you view the phenomenon
and the kind of I don't know like mass
disclosure kind of narrative that's
being you know this idea that because it
seems like they're saying all these
things like crash retrieval programs you
know um uh reverse engineering
operations these we have we've had
programs forever they're saying all this
stuff and then you see like conspira you
know people online who are like very
kind of like you know anti- athority and
they're like now that like people who
are high up at the CIA and DNI are
saying this stuff, you know, like we
think that this is like BS and some sort
of narrative, but then if you actually
quiz them on like their belief system,
they're like, "Yeah, we believe we've
had crash retrieval programs, reverse
engineering." So, I'm like, what is the
core secret? Cuz that that can't be the
most important thing because I actually
agree. I think the irreverence towards
those organizations is is very valid
given this history, this pattern that
you're talking about. So I'm like is the
the crash retrieval um and reverse
engineering operations can't be the most
vital thing. There has to be something
interesting kind of metaphysically or in
physics that exists beneath that that
people are you know from those intel
organizations are trying to you know
steer people clear of or are they just
literally trying to get it out at this
point? Are they like this is their last
gasp and they're trying to get it out?
>> No I they're pushing the hardware thing.
I I the if you talk about the core
secret I think the core secret is still
the consciousness thing. Okay.
>> It's this idea that it's not what you
think it is. So when you hear Jimmy
Carter so they Fox asked Jimmy Carter.
>> So why didn't you do something when you
were in in in the in the government he
said there are many possibilities but
nobody has answers.
>> Did you lost when you were president?
>> Yes but uh there's a lot of different
answers and nobody knows has proof of
>> and then if you listen to Barack Obama
he said yeah the videos are real. Yeah
we don't we don't know what's going on.
There's footage and records of objects
in the skies that we don't know exactly
what they are. We can't explain.
>> If you listen to uh Jim Semivan, he
says, "Just because you got bodies and
crafts doesn't mean you know what's
going on." And he tells the story about
the 7-hour briefing. They tell him,
these high level guys tell him, "Get a
room in the CIA for 6 to8 hours. Uh
we're going to come and talk to you."
And he said, "These guys come in,
they're from contractors, they're from
military. They all got as many tickets
as he has." And they walk in. And then
he said, "They scared living the living
out of me. They they're in there
and he said they they went through this
whole thing and then of course he gets
asked in the interview." Well, what did
they find? What about UFOs? And he said,
"Nothing. They haven't got anything." He
says, "I'll make a bet. I'll bet one
year of my pension against anybody. They
haven't got a clue what's going on.
Because you got bodies and crafts
doesn't mean you're going to know what's
going on." Yeah, we got bodies and
crafts, but we we don't we don't
understand it. He said, "But what they
told me?" He said, "What' they tell you
that scared you?" And he said, "They
said all the size stuff is right.
Everything it's all right. all this sort
of stuff. And he he said he walked
around. You got to remember this guy was
head of covert ops for the US government
for the CIA. And he said he walked
around for three months and a days. He
was just he blew him away. Whatever they
told him blew him away about this size
stuff. And then he said uh his wife
would ask him, "Jimmy, you okay?" And he
couldn't tell her what was wrong or
whatever, what he had seen or whatever.
And he said it just sort of and then
they said, "Would you like another
briefing?" He said, "Nope, no more
briefings. I don't want to hear
anymore." And it just blew him away. So
this is this whole thing. And even you
get Laskkey, the latest interview he got
and and you see you start reading
between the lines and and I'm just
working on this now is this connection
between near-death experiences and uh
UFOs. So you get this story that Latasky
tells the story. I was in a
congressional facility. He puts this
chapter six first thing in this book a
couple a year ago. We're in a fac
congressional facility which means
Congress is learning something because
he's in a congressional probably in a
skiff. and he said with a senator which
was spring confirmed it was Senator Reid
in his skiff and we told them that we
had breached the craft. We'd gotten into
the craft and there was nothing in it
and then so he starts getting
interviewed about this and he won't go.
He won't go there. So what's in the
craft? I can't talk about it. Can't talk
about it. Can't talk about me. The
question was they briefed the craft.
It's like 2011.
>> You got in the craft in 2011. So then
they finally asked him this time they
said can you talk about how you briefed
the craft how you breached the craft
said I can't talk about that and so the
question comes down you hear this story
that people will talk about that uh the
craft is alive it's conscious and that
uh Sarati tells the story I don't know
if you ever talked about it but Jack
Sarati tells the story he's got a friend
he's a Navy friend and he said I got
99.5% that this guy's telling me there's
not man he's got craft on the east coast
of the United States it's in there and
they couldn't breach the craft. They
couldn't get inside the craft because
the craft works. It's alive. It's
conscious and it's got an attitude that
unless you vibrate at the right level,
you can't get in the craft. So, this guy
managed, I guess he qualified and the
craft would open. And the thing just
opens up like molten metal. The side of
the craft opens, he goes in, flew the
craft, it goes back together again. But
unless you have the right attitude,
that's how that's how you get inside the
craft. And that's why they couldn't
breach the craft. They couldn't figure
out how to get in the craft. get these
stories. They're using drills that
couldn't get in the craft. That the
craft lets you in or it doesn't let you
in. And that's what Sarati is telling
the story right now. He's telling the
story of his friend that he's he's a a
physicist working for the Navy in his
facility on the east coast with his
craft. And then you start looking at
near-death experiences and people talk
about near-death experience. And I've
got a whole list of maybe 20 so far. I'm
probably going to get more 20 of these
people said, "I'm in I'm in near-death
experience. I'm going in this building
and the building looks like it's alive
and and it's made out of granite but it
looks like it's alive. The the rocks are
alive and they go in and there's these
rooms and the only way you can get in
the room is if you vibrate at the right
level. They're they're teaching
different things and the the thing opens
up like molten metal that opens up in
the door and if you're available to go
in to be taught and it closes up. I'm
going that's exactly what the UFO things
talks about. Same as you talked about
the crystal. So let me tell you the
story of the crystal. This is where you
see these crossovers where you start
wondering what should be going on here.
So you talked about Chase Brandon
talking about this crystal. You can see
the past future and all this kind of
stuff. And I've even asked Richard about
this. Now Richard Dodie tells the story.
The most amazing thing he ever saw in
the military. It was a crystal. The
aliens had this crystal. They could hold
this crystal and they could show you the
crucifixion of Jesus that could show the
past and this crystal. It was the most
amazing thing he ever saw. So I got a
friend who's an experiencer. He's a
Mormon guy out of Utah.
>> Wait, who said that about the crystal?
Uh Richard Dodie.
>> Okay. But yeah.
>> Okay. Hang on. So you gota get So you
got one story about the crystal about
looking in and seeing time and you're
talking about Chase Brandon talking
about this thing timelines. You can see
that.
>> I just don't trust.
>> Okay. But again, so I got this friend.
So this guy's a Mormon guy. I mean
>> he's he's he's actually in hospice care.
He's he's been fighting to stay alive
for the last 5 years. But anyway, so he
tells me a story and he says uh Elby who
is his being. Everybody always has a
being. You say you run the craft. What's
the name of the being? And everybody has
a name. They know it's an English name
and they talk. One being tells him
everything that's and you start
wondering is that a spirit guide? Is
that an alien? Like what's going on
here? Anyway, Elby takes him to the
spirit world three times. First time
he's sort of in the dark. Can't see
anything. Second time he's sort of in
the dark, but can he's here's his
mother. He could talk to his dead
mother. He's talking to his dead mother.
The third time you take him right into
the spirit world. So he he's in the
spirit world with his mother and in this
field, you know the this classics
beautiful field. The grass is talking to
you. It's just beautiful flowers and
wonderful feeling and stuff like that.
And his mother says, "Ron, see that
building over there?" And there's this,
he said, "It looks like a little tiny
Mormon temple over in the distance." And
she says, "Ron, when you die, you're
going to get a room in this building."
And so they go over to the building and
she says, "Your father's got a room in
the building." And he said this portal
opens up and you can see his father
inside this room. So he goes in and this
is where the catch comes. So he goes in
the building. He said, "Grander, it's
the weirdest thing. I went inside and it
was 10 or 100 times the size inside as
it was outside and I'm going 100 times
the size even a UFO or even a spirit
world here because you hear the stories
Chris Bless tells the story 30t on the
outside and he looks inside and it's the
size of a football game. He looks back
outside it's 30 feet.
>> That's common.
>> Yeah. And so this guy's telling it's in
a spirit world and then he goes in the
spirit world and he goes and he he says
his mother takes him down this building
and down and there's a table and the
table has these crystals coming out of
the table and I said crystals and I said
yeah and he said you take a look at the
crystal at a certain angle and you can
see all your past lives and you can see
all your lives and stuff. I said really
he said yeah and he said his mother said
you don't have a crystal yet Ron because
you haven't died. As soon as you have a
crystal, your crystal will come out of
the table. And and then he he looks he
sees his dog's cris crystal and he looks
at his dog's crystal and his dog
disappeared in 1972 or something like
this. He never knew what happened to his
dog and he's watching the crystal the
the dog's life and he saw the neighbor
came, shot the dog, threw it in the back
of a pickup and took it to the dump and
threw it in the dump.
>> Who Who is this guy?
>> His name is Ron Johnson. He's got
incredible stories.
>> What's his background?
>> Uh he was just a heavy equipment
operator. Uh stuff like that. Was he
working on crash retrievals or reverse
engineering? Who was Sarat's friend? Uh
the Navy guy.
>> We we I had a name and I put it to some
people and said, "No, that's not the
guy." I had one name that I thought it
was, but people denied it. So, I'm still
trying to figure what the base was. I
think Blue Alazando talked about the
base. Okay. There's a base on the east
coast, a Navy facility, I think it's
called.
>> Yeah.
>> On the east coast. And I think that's
the the the base where this guy was, but
we're trying to still trying to identify
who this guy was that told the story
about Flying Craft. And he was in charge
of the project. Do you think there are
UFO bases around in in in mountains or
underwater?
>> Yeah, the the the mission people always
talk about the the beings under Mount
Shasta and stuff like that. And
>> um but the question is if you're a being
and you come across time and space like
why do you need to have a base? Totally.
It doesn't make any sense. It's almost
like I think it's more ether theor than
you know than than physical when it
comes to the beings. So they can sort of
go in like you you'll have people dead
dead people coming on the craft. So the
question is dead pets. So are they
bringing these people back into physical
reality into our experience where the
person is being abducted physical or are
you being moved out of your astro body,
moved onto a ship and you're in the in
the world where all the dead people are.
>> You mentioned Jim Saman who's very high
up at the CIA. Yeah.
>> Getting briefed on, you know, basically
all sorts of paranormal stuff, you know,
tangentially related to UFOs. And they
say that the size stuff, the
parasychology, the idea that mind and
matter are not, you know, partitioned,
they're connected, is the kind of real
core truth. All of that is real.
>> Uh I find that really interesting
because you're one of the few people
who've had direct interactions with this
guy named Eric Walker. The direct
interactions with anybody who's been
rumored to be on this sort of Majestic
12 committee, this committee of elite
science military, you know, people who
are like in charge of the UFO matter.
They were rumored to, you know, be
started under Truman and Eisenhower. And
Eric Walker is supposed to be a part of
this group. Uh, he runs all sorts of
material science initiatives. He's a
president of Penn State. What was that
interaction like?
>> Oh, it was wild because he would talk in
rhymes and riddles and at the time my
co-author wanted to just sort of edit
the stuff. I said, "No, edit it. Just
put it out. Just it's crazy stuff to
good stuff, whatever." I always thought
he was like kind of goofy some of the
stuff he said, but some of the stuff
actually turns out to be right. Like the
whole thing where he says, "Let me ask
you a question." And you'd suddenly
that's what happened to me when I had
the download that sort of popped in my
head. I forgotten you'd even said it. He
said at one point, they're talking about
the MJ12 committee. Is it all Americans?
Is it more than 12? All this sort of
stuff. And he cuts the guy off. He said,
"Look, let me ask you a question. What
do you know about ESP?" And the guy had
no answer. He said, "Look, unless you
understand about ESP and how it works,
you will not be taken in by the control
group. Very few people understand how it
works." And I didn't realize the
significance until I suddenly Ben Rich
had said it two years later. Exactly the
same question when Hartson said, "How
did they get here?" And then Ben Rich
turns around and says, "Let me ask you a
question. What do you know about ESP?"
And Jan Hartson says, "It means
everything in time and space is
connected." So that's how it works. And
that's this thing where where I look at
it. it. I moved away from the ET going
through uh material wormholes or
something to this portal type thing. And
the key thing I've got is the tape from
Ron Pendulfie. So Ron Pendalfi run the
weird desk.
>> Well, I want to stick with Eric Walker
real quick. So
>> did you get the vibe or sense that this
was a guy who had been privy to
>> Well, we knew we knew his background. We
knew he'd been on defense science board
that he he was chairman of the board of
the Institute for Defense Analysis,
which at the time was the top military
think tank. That's where DARPA came
from. That's where the Jasons came from.
They came out of institute. He's the guy
that set him up. He worked on defense
policy. He a letter he says, "I worked
on defense policy with in 1947 with
Vanavar Bush."
>> And he admitted he was uh part of the
1965 uh Kexsburg crash. He he was on the
scene.
>> That was later. I because he said some
things. I got the interview. I said,
"Phone him back. Ask him if he was at
Kexsburg because he was talking about
things that seem to indicate he was at
Kexburg." And he said, "I was there. So
what?" And when he said control group,
what do you think he meant?
>> Well, they were asking him about about
the MJ12. Is it all Americans? Is it
more than 12 people? And that's when he
cut him off. He said, "Let me ask you a
question."
>> And he called he described them as a
group of elites. If you were invited
into their group, I would know. M
>> and then he would say things that that
that came up later that would like there
was one story that
>> when he said elites what like elite
>> like elite elite like I mean mentally,
physically whatever like they were not
ordinary people like almost like uh von
Newman or people of that status you know
that they were just really really
standout people that could do
calculations in their head and stuff
like that. That's that's my impression
that they were they were not just
academics. So they were trying to get
are they military are they academics and
stuff and they did ask them all the
questions. We we put all the transcripts
and they would ask those questions like
was there military people involved and
and was need communication. He said we
promised not to tell. And now you're
hearing this thing with communication.
Every time someone gets asked a question
about communication, it it shuts down.
It's like this is one of the the the
pillars of things. But there's another
one that came up was I had a a friend uh
who was at the Soul Conference two years
ago and they were showing James Fox's
movie and I think I haven't seen the
movie, but I think they talked about the
the King the Kingman crash.
>> Uhhuh.
>> So this girl that I I have contact with
was sitting right near one of the main
people. I say who it is, but one of the
main people. And as that came up, he
said, "That's not right. That's not
right. That was that crash. That's the
one they walked away from." And I said
to her, "He said that?" And she said,
"That's what he said." And then I
remember Walker saying, "We're talking
about MJ12. Oh, the the dead bodies." He
said, "How do you know they're dead? You
assume too many things and they're all
wrong. How do you know they didn't get
up and walk away?" And now we got this
story that they got up and walked away
and they left the craft totally intact.
And then when they looked inside, there
was no beings. They just left us a craft
totally intact, flyable, all this sort
of stuff. And Walker had said that 30
years ago. How do you know they didn't
walk get up and walk away?
>> Who's this woman who said that about the
Kingman?
>> I don't.
>> But she had a good source. Do you know
she
>> she was sitting beside him and when the
interview was when the movie was going
on this guy was saying that's not right
>> who said this
>> I want to say I don't it's one of the
main people is one of the main people at
soul and she I just couldn't believe he
said that it's like and I don't know if
that's true but
>> why don't you want to say
>> well I she told me the story I don't
know if she wants to expose this guy
what what he was saying because she said
she just told me what he was saying
because you see him and I'm thinking he
said that it's like but it was this idea
we even got the idea that there's one
craft where they walked away from it.
They just they just left it and walked
away
>> and and gifted it to us. That's where
Tim Taylor talks about the gifting field
that they're gifting this stuff. And
that's what he asked Bob Bigalow, "Do
you think there's other crashes in other
countries?" And he said,
>> "Yeah, I think there's I think there's
been a crash in Russia. I think there's
been a crash in China. I think there's
been one in South America. Uh there's I
think they're they're seeding them.
They're seating them around the world."
That's a gifting idea that everybody
seems to have adopted this idea that the
thing doesn't come at 10,000 light years
and then suddenly crash. Well, I also,
you know, just sticking with Walker for
a second, Walker was chairman of the
Institute for Defense Analysis, the IDA,
and Malmrren was a part of the IDA early
on as well, and I had the privilege of
interviewing Malgrren. Yeah. And
>> a lot was the the tape with um um
uh Bobby R Bobby Rinman
>> when he got asked those questions. That
was at the IDA. He was they were in a
meeting at the IDA as well. You have all
these high, if you look at the board,
they had joint chiefs of staff people on
there, the head of the NSA, the some guy
he'd been on for like 30 years or
something. Sat right beside Walker at
the the board and and stuff like that.
It was just high highlevel people
working on then they were working on the
Vietnam War and Yeah. All that kind of
stuff.
>> But uh these these were elite people.
They were grabbing them and uh
>> Do you believe Malin's testimony?
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Yeah. And is it because of you know his
background you know he doesn't Yeah. and
he doesn't seem to have any, you know,
vested interest in in in making it up.
He may have some stories that he has to
change based upon, you know, covering
for some classified thing or whatever.
But is extremely interesting story,
especially I hear he's like same as Bob
Magcguire. Yeah.
>> When I heard Bob McGuire from IDA, I
said, "Can I interview you?"
>> But he didn't really have any. He was
just doing mathematics. He wasn't, you
know, a major guy there. But that's the
thing is when when when I hear IDA, I
know this is an ordinary guy. you know,
they don't just haul you in. Same as as
sic.
>> Yeah.
>> If you're suddenly on the board there,
you know, this guy's this guy's got some
some something behind him that they want
and and he's got lots of connections and
uh Yeah.
>> So, it's interesting to watch these
guys. But that was my original thing
when the thing was flying away the
second night. I said, I'm going to find
out what's going on here. And then I
went from the Canadian government to
Eric Walker
>> because that that led to Eric Walker.
And then Eric Walker was going to put
his papers at pen at uh the Truman
Library. Mh.
>> So I went to the Truman Library and I
go, "Oh, president's got to know. He's
the most powerful guy in the world. He's
got to know what's going on." So that's
when I I couldn't find much of Walker.
>> I was looking for his files cuz he ran
he was assistant on weapons in 1950.
That's when this crash took place. So
that's how it started. So they found out
that that uh Steman said, "I was I was
invited to a crash uh briefing at Ray
Patterson Air Force Base
>> and I couldn't go. I was busy was
working on the duel line in Canada or
something like that. these engineers. I
couldn't go. And then he kept pushing.
Simon was pushing, "Well, who went? Who
went?" And then Ste or um uh Stan
Freeman had an interview with him and he
said, "Well, who who was there? Who's
there?" And he said, "Van Vanavar Bush
and Von Newman and stuff." And he said,
"Well, these guys are all dead. There
might be some guy still alive. This is
1983." And this we do have the tape of
this conversation. He said, "Well, yeah,
there was this guy who was real
arrogant. He was he was from
Pennsylvania. Had a company like me and
he thought he knew everything. He went
to all the meetings." So it was Steyman
who did all the work and got all the
names and came up and he phoned him. He
says Dr. Eric Walker. Yeah, that's the
guy. That's the guy. That's when he
phones Walker and he says, "I've got
this document uh before me about uh or
no, I've got I've been received from Dr.
Robert Sarbacher that you were at a
briefing uh dealing with the recovery of
a flying saucer and bodies at Ray
Patterson Air Force Base in 1950."
>> Did he have the document? Well, he had
the No, he had the MJ12 doc, but he said
Sarbacher told me this. Yeah. So, Walker
would know who Saras Walker in the MJ12
docks.
>> No.
>> Okay. No.
>> So, he said Sarbacher
said you had been at a briefing.
>> So, he said he basically just said,
"Sarbacher said you had been at a
briefing."
>> Briefing and right back.
>> And then what did Eric Walker say?
>> He said, "I was there. So what?" And
then Simon went crazy. What do you mean
this this is an important story? And he
said, "Well, calm down. Calm down." He
said, and he's he's he's just said,
"Yeah, I was there." And uh he basically
admits he said, "I've known of them for
40 years." Which convinced me that this
is a real deal because this is 1987. He
does the interview. I've known of them
MJ12 for 40 years. Leave it alone.
There's nothing you can do about it. And
that's when he started this whole thing.
Uh unless you have the mind of Einstein,
you're not you're not going to make any
progress.
>> Chasing your tail. Yeah.
>> Yeah. And that's this is whole idea that
I I believe now that that may be what
the coverup's about is that they have
bodies and crafts, but Obama and all
these people are telling the truth that
we don't know anything beyond that. We
Yeah. this story is real. There are real
photos. There are real uh bodies and
crafts, but we don't have the answers.
And that's what they're trying to hide
is that the the the the phenomena about
the how you propel the craft, how you
control it, all this kind of stuff, the
mind stuff that they're that they're
trying to control. And that's the
coverup story that you can't have the
president come out and say, and I think
Trump now has made the release. So, I
think he's in big trouble because what
happens is what Eric Walker said to us
is, "You're just curious. Admit it.
you're just curious. Why should we
change the rules and regulations to
satisfy your curiosity? And he was 100%
right. 99.9% of people just want to hear
a good story. They just want to know.
And so what you're going to have is
whatever Trump says, like he's supposed
to have this speech July the 8th, the
anniversary of Roswell, he's going to
make this speech and he's going to say,
"Yeah, UFOs exist." But I don't really
believe it. I a lot of people like this
kind of stuff. I met these Navy guys.
They're really nice guys. He's going to
make that kind of speech and but I I
really don't know. And
>> do you think Trump will make a speech?
>> I after I heard Laura Bush, I would say
I'm going 5050. There's gonna be a
speech because he's in a box now. He's
in a box. He's gonna he's People don't
realize like Semivan points out this is
a P. This is a presidential emergency
action document. This is how it started,
which means it's an executive program.
The president is running the cover up.
So once Trump got caught off guard, he
just said, "Oh, you shouldn't have
talked about that as classified." Now
suddenly everybody realizes like Trump
knows Trump's uh uh now going to face
the one million one questions which what
Walker was trying to do is back you off.
We haven't we're not going to answer one
million questions because you're just
curious. You're going to say oh there's
bodies and crafts. Then somebody's going
to say okay where they from. Okay now
you know why are they here? How was the
ship made of? And like then the
questions will never end. And the
president can't be answering all those
questions because they don't know. They
may know a little bit about the melon, a
little bit about this, but what you're
doing I I said the night that Trump
announced they must have had a party
beyond reproach in the in the Kremlin
with a vodka flowing like, oh my god,
you're going to release this stuff and
just and they sit there. It's like a
game of cards. It's a game of poker. If
you they want you everybody wants
somebody to put their cards on the
table. Nobody wants to put their cards
on the table because you may put your
cards on the table and the Russians have
the parts the cards that you're missing.
Speaking of past presidents who had some
exposure to this stuff, Nixon uh is a
really interesting kind of apocryphal
story uh that was told by Jackie
Gleason's ex-wife, Beverly Mkhitrich.
Yeah.
>> Uh do you want to tell this story and I
want to also just get your take on
whether you think this actually
happened? Because it's one of the most
remarkable stories. Joe Rogan always
brings it up and says, "I love this
story. It's one of my favorite stories
cuz
>> it ends with Jackie Gleason being so
obsessed with UFOs that he ends up with
a UFOshaped house in upstate New York.
So
>> yeah, I I actually arranged that
interview with his his wife David Rudak
was the guy that found her. Uh we were
looking for her to do the story and she
was selling the silverware. She was
online. She was selling the silverware.
So we we we got a guy out of Ohio who's
actually died now. He went and did the
interview and she told the interview she
was going to write a book which really
got Jackie upset and she had gone to the
National Enquire. They had done a story
and he was really upset that she had
made this public. So she told us the
story that yeah he he's either fooling
around with women or he this actually
happened because he was pretty shaken up
when he came home. He was he was really
rattled when he came home which is
almost the same sort of story as
semivan. When you actually get the truth
he's it just blows them away. You think
you'll handle it and he doesn't handle
it. So, I looked at it because I I was
at the National Archives where the the
Nixon stuff was and I tried to track
down everything that I could find there.
And what I did find is it wouldn't make
sense because when uh Nixon was there, I
can't remember how many times he went to
the they called the Southern White House
in Key Biscane, Florida. They would land
at Hullman and then they would take
Marine One, the helicopter from Hullman
to So, he would land at Hollowman like
in his presidency 200 times. He he would
have known the base. Where is Halman?
>> It's it's just near it's South Florida.
It's near Kiscane. So he just fly to
Kiscane and that's where the house was.
>> So and and Nixon we had heard these
stories like they said, oh he couldn't
get away from his security. So I checked
it and sure enough he got away from his
security lots of times. He didn't want
he hated as a security and what he would
do is get the cook to drive out and he
would be in the back seat under a
blanket and he would and then we'd find
him in a bar and the secret service
would have to find out where he is and
go drag him out of the bar and bring him
back to the White House and stuff like
that. So I knew that part of the story
was right that he could get a car. He
could get because that was the thing
president can't get a car. But I could
confirm, yeah, the president can get a
car and that he knew Hollowman back
backwards and forwards and uh this whole
thing with Jackie Gleason that he was
obsessed with with with UFOs and that
kind of stuff. And he was able to uh
>> I thought it was Homestead Air Force
Base.
>> Yeah, Homestead probably.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I was confused because
Holland's in New Mexico.
>> Homestead. Yeah.
>> Yeah. I was like I was updating.
>> Yeah. It's close but not not there.
Yeah. So he and and so yeah, I believe
that story is true. And there was a
story that that he had folders. He had a
folder in his filing cabinet with the
with the alien dead bodies and they
would show these photographs. There was
that story about Nixon. Nixon apparently
was just fascinated with the
>> Well, it's interesting. We basically
know that Watergate was an inside job
and it was a it was a setup to oust
Nixon. Yeah. Mark Felt is the deputy
director of the FBI. He's deep throat
and he's giving a tip to a guy who just
came out of the naval spy ring, office
of naval intelligence, Bob Woodward. And
so this whole thing is just this excuse
to get rid of Nixon who wanted to, you
know, basically uh do a cut of the CIA
by a third, you know, big force
reduction. Yeah. And I think he was also
interested in a lot of this kind of
spookier tech. Yeah. And I think there's
a section in Mark Felt's um
autobiography where he talks about Nixon
having seen some pretty specialized
covert technology. And so I wonder if
that's what he was speaking about high
level is, you know, what he saw at
Homestead Air Force Base, what he might
have shown Gleon there. Who knows?
>> Yeah, it could be. Well, because the
thing the thing that was a controversy
around Bob was the the fact that Bob got
a letter from Nixon and said, "Thank you
for your cooperation on the project
we're working on." and he showed it to
Linda How and Larry Bryant I think were
in LA at a big house in LA in Hollywood
>> and showed him this letter and then um
he started to deny he had this letter
and we actually asked him one on one
interview D and he said well no I got a
letter and he send president sends out a
letter trying to recruit people if you
got anybody and he he kept talking about
this letter and said no no and so one
time Linda said we were at a conference
Lyn says come on we're going for dinner
with Bob I'm going to I'm going to get
him I'm going to get him to talk. So,
we're going there and she's just giving
it to him. Oh, I felt sorry for Bob. And
Bob was saying nothing. He had his head
down. His wife had his head her head
down. Wasn't coming or anything. She
said, "Come on, Bob. You got to admit
it. You showed me that letter. Nixon was
involved."
She didn't say anything. And then me and
Angela got up. I laughed. I said, "I'll
I'll Bob I'll leave you to Linda." And I
walked off. And Linda didn't talk to me
for like a year or two years. She
thought it was mad at her. I said, "No,
I thought it was kind of funny that you
were you were grilling this guy." And I
said, "Linda will get it out of you."
But but Linda contra confronted him
numerous times about this letter that
he'd gotten the letter thanking him that
the whole thing was approved. The same
as the one with uh UFO cover up live was
a couple days before the Nixon before
Reagan left office and it was sort of
like a present to the people as I'm
leaving
>> this documentary. Well, Nixon, I
believe, was also head of the 5412
commission under Eisenhower, and that
was this continuity of government
initiative, but also to give do kind of
inter agency coordination between all
these intelligence agencies and probably
do some pretty spooky covert stuff and
give the president plausible deniability
on it and then it probably turned into
its own runaway sort of thing. Some
people think the Majestic 12 have to do
with those sorts of programs. They do
these.
>> Well, let me tell you my version story.
So, John Alexander was doing an
interview. Mhm.
>> I've got in one of my books, I list all
the MJ12 stuff. I mean, there's no doubt
there's 20 high level people talk about
MJ12, but John talked about it in an
interview. Uh, and he said, "Yeah, there
was, but it it didn't have anything to
do with UFOs." And she said, "Well, it
have to do had to do with continuity of
government."
>> And um, and the guy that showed him that
told him that MJ12 was real said, "You
look at the people on the list and it
should tell you what's going on." So, I
I had that and then Paul Helier tells
the story. So Paul Heler tells the story
and I'm sitting right beside we're in
Brford Ontario and goes around he said
uh who who in the government knows and
he goes I don't know because Paul Heler
really didn't know much so he said head
of the privy council which is pretty
high it's a guy under the prime minister
head of the privy council and uh he I
really don't know and it goes around and
comes around second round of questions
and then he says what your first
question he says I do know somebody who
knows and he tells the story he says I
got a phone call from this air force guy
and he said the head of emergency
management, which is the Canadian
version, is about to go off the cliff.
He's got he's got Lug Garrick's disease,
L. And he's about to go, you know, he's
he's dying and he's got something he's
got to get off his chest and he's
decided you're the guy he wants to tell.
So Paul says, "Yeah, okay. I'll phone
the guy." And he doesn't phone the guy.
And then this guy phones him back.
That's when he says, "Paul, the guy's
about to go off the cliff. You better
talk to him." So he phones the guy up
and the guy says, "I just want to get
something off my chest before I die.
It's real. It's all real." He says, "I
got taken to the United States." And it
would make sense if you're emergency
management. Even if you don't believe in
aliens, you got an alien plan in case
there happens to be an alien invasion.
Emergency management's got to have some
plan. They got a million plans for every
lousy cons, you know, thing that could
go wrong. And he said, "I got taken to
Washington to Langley. I signed my life
away and then they took me to Area 51
and I sat inside a craft." That's what
he told her. And I'm going, "What?" He's
like, "Holy cow." And uh so then the guy
ends up dying. And then the other piece
of the evidence came. So I'm doing
research on the Cexsburg crash because
Walker claimed he was there. So I'm
doing research on that. And we're
looking at the Blue Book files. And the
Blue Book files talk about the fact that
some metal had come down in Michigan
because this thing came all across uh uh
Minnesota, Michigan, Ohio, down into
Pennsylvania, made this turn and crashed
in in Kexburg. So there was some reports
that there was some metal had come down
in Michigan. And then there was um
another one that said it was sent to
project
code word greeng grass and I wonder what
that is. I look it up. It's Mount
Weather. So where they could take the
president when there's a nuclear attack.
So they were sending this information on
the Cexsburg crash to Mount Weather. And
one of Greer's witnesses is uh Steven
Lovkin. He was this lawyer guy and
everybody I interviewed him. Everybody
thought he was, you know, maybe making
it up and stuff like that. So I talked
to him about being inside Mount Weather
with with uh Eisenhower and he he said
Eisenhower would doodle UFO stuff and
that sort of stuff and that Eisenhower
was this is where UFOs were
headquartered. This is where all the UFO
stuff goes because it makes sense that
if they drop the bombs, they're going to
drop the bombs on the White House, all
this sort of stuff. You need a place
that is that is contained. Mount Weather
has communications to all the military,
all the embassies. It's underground. And
that's where they I think they took uh
uh one time they took uh the president
there and then they took uh uh vice
president there and this sort of stuff
and it's this underground city thing and
one of Greer's witnesses was saying and
and didn't make any sense until you put
these all together that this is
continuity of government that this is
part of the thing if there's an alien
invasion we have to have this this
covered and that the head of FEMA was
there the day after the first meeting
that that Johnson had when he came back
to the White House after Kexsburg was
with the head FEMA with the emergency
management. So you start looking at this
thing. Do they see it as a a continuity
of government thing or are they hiding
it under a piece? So they're hiding it
under something that doesn't really seem
that it applies like continuity of
government. You say it's got nothing to
do with UFOs. It probably has everything
to do with UFOs. Got a whole division
that's dealing with this. And that's the
way I I looked at that. There was a lot
of stuff that seemed to show that Mount
Weather did have this UFO connection.
>> Where is Mount Weather?
>> It's about 60 mi out of Washington, I
think, in Virginia, I think. Okay. But
it's uh it's it's this huge
>> one of these like Cheyenne Mountain
Complex type of you know contingency
planers put the new government the new
government gets signed and they have a
president vice president if they're all
dead they have people are nominated and
and they keep the government going under
this this
>> do you think this would be like super
deep meta conspiracy but do you think
that part of the modern narrative around
disclosure is like okay so you're on the
inside you know you have biologics you
have crashes you have material, you have
all these things, but you really don't
know how a lot of it works. And you
know, the size stuff is real, but maybe
there's some vital core group that
understands that to a better degree, but
it's very disorganized.
Not clear how you can instrumentalize a
lot of it.
>> Maybe there's a point of exhaustion and
you go, how can we use this to our
advantage? And then you start to think,
okay, our democracy seems like it's sort
of unraveling. And you know, you can
execute some sort of continuity of
government contingency plan or
something. and you know you blame it on
alien invasion or things like that. You
know the these are things like they talk
about project blue beam and things like
that and you know usually I think it's
pretty mushyrained people who are
convinced that everything in this world
is
>> you know based on one of these sort of
crazy crazy plans but do you think that
g given this insight that there is this
continuity or this thread between
continuity of government and you know
people involved in the alien issue do
you think that that could be part of
what's going on? you're sort of um in
some ways taking the president a step
down. You said he's seeding his
authority by saying that there's
something else going on and then if
there is some false flag in this in that
area then all of a sudden it's like oh
we got the generals need to be in charge
or something like that.
>> Yeah. Well, I I see that. Although the
way I saw it because in a lot of the
presidential libraries when I went in
there, I'd be finished the UFO stuff in
about three hours because there are no
documents in UFO in the in the
libraries. And then I would read all
these what they call oral histories. So
if you were the cook at the White House,
they'd say, "Hey, Jesse, you were the
cook at the White House. How does the
president eat? Did he ever steal food in
the middle of the night?" All these
goofy questions they ask them, you know,
and and I would read all these oral
histories of of these guys and I'd see
how they made decisions and I would go,
"I see why he made that decision. He he
figures he's a bad guy. And then I read
his oral history and I go, I got to
understand why he did that. You see the
background and to me it was always this
thing where it was more like six layers
of paperwork that you got to do for
everything. It's just bogged down where
nothing gets done where maybe even in
the UFO thing that's what they
complained that you know this it's
compartmentalized and it's you know
nothing's getting done and the right
hand doesn't know what the left hand's
doing. That was more my thing of of the
of the of the government in terms of and
in this last administration I I can't
see because I got the whole briefing
thing with with Trump and you'll see I I
think I sent you my FOAS and one of the
ones I asked was for all the
>> this is a Freedom of Information Act.
>> Yeah. Request. So what happens is 5
years after the president is out you can
file for any documents you want. So at 1
second after midnight on January the
20th, I filed 47 FOIs all at one time
and I want to be at the front of the
line because it's first come first
serve. And there was a big group out of
Washington went after me one time with
the with the Clintons and said why is
all this UFO stuff coming out? Like what
we want Hillary Clinton's um email, no
not email, phone records and this is a
waste of money and stuff like this. And
I I wrote them. I said first come first
serve. That's how FOA works. Get lost.
Go to hell. Stand in line. We're like
the rest of us. And and that's the
thing. So I put it in and one of the
requests I made was all documents that
on Rans Prieous on UFOs for briefing of
the president and that is because I got
called in. I got called in by Larry
Fchella who's not well known in the UFO
committee. Pretty powerful, very rich
guy sort of works behind the scenes,
helps people out and stuff like that.
And he's the guy that sort of hinted to
me who Jim Seivian was. And then in 2016
I brought Jim Semivan's name out. But
anyway, he um he called me up and he
said after Trump won 2016, he said, "I I
need to I I need to help help. We're
doing a briefing for Rance Prieous." And
I said, "For what UFOs?" He said, "Where
are the crafts and bodies?" I said, "I
have no idea there what the crafts and
bodies." What are you doing a Trump
briefing for? And he said, "Well, you're
not going to tell them." I said, "Well,
who's they?" And he said, "Well, the CIA
and stuff." I said, "Well, he appoints
all these people. He points the NSA and
the CIA and he can as he's shown he
could fire hundreds of thousands of
people he doesn't he can go as deep as
he wants and wipe out everybody and and
I said well you know if if they don't
tell him if he hires all these people as
his aids and then they don't tell him
what's going on whose fault is that he
said yeah that makes sense and that that
ended the conversation but I see I went
for R's previous I hundreds of pages of
stuff on briefings for the president of
the United States so it'll be all these
people that were gathered and all the
information they gave as to what we
should tell uh uh uh Donald Trump now
whether they block it or not because you
know they play the games with the FOAS
where you know you this is too broad
even my UFO I have to redo it uh your
UFO it's too broad and take too many
categories and too expensive and all
this sort of stuff and we're not going
to file it unless you uh specify exactly
which files you want and stuff like
that. So they they play these little
games, but uh uh it's a it's a world
where
uh FOIS don't really get anything. You
you file for them, but behind the
scenes, the people that that you talk
to, you you can get a lot of insight as
to I think what's going on. I think the
cover up to me is is clearly the fact
that it's as as um uh James Saskowski
said, he said it is is is very complex.
It is very very complex. And the
reference was it is the equivalent of
going from rocks rocks and sticks to
semiconductors or something like that.
That's how that's how far advanced this
stuff is. Speaking of how complex and
weird this is, there's a NASA mission
controller named Tim Taylor who seems to
pop up in all these experiencers lives.
Um people like Chris Bledsoe who
obviously saw this figure he calls the
lady or maybe the goddess Hatheror. You
know, he says maybe she's also the
Virgin Mary. Goes by many names. and was
given all these sort of prophecies.
Obviously, you know, he experiences a
lot of UFO stuff as well.
>> This is the message. She told me that
she had many names throughout history
and that God is God
and we don't know what we think we know
and we need to sit back and reanalyze
and,
you know, be good children and we're
going off the cliff. Whitley Strieber,
you know, Tim Taylor also is in contact
with him. Charles Hall, who was at Area
51, claimed to live with tall white
alien beings for years. So, I find him
fascinating because he's at the
intersection of like this guy has worked
on, you know, missions at NASA, Cape
Kennedy, uh, since the 80s. He worked on
the Challenger mission and is this very
credentialed guy, but then he's also
popping up in these experiencers lives
and claiming all sorts of really out
there things like saying that there's a
hierarchy of being involving, you know,
angels and, you know, alien. He says he
works for an angel. He says that there
are alien human hybrids. He, you know,
then they they exist above, you know,
intel. Um he says that he is sort of a
time traveler and is a part of something
called the adjustment bureau involved in
sort of changing timelines. Um, and then
the crazy thing that no one else will
find crazy, but I'm obsessed with Towns
and Brown, this mid-century inventor
who, you know, really worked on gravity
and anti-gravity, but gravity and time
are connected. And so, he really was
interested in time travel himself, is
uh, Tim Taylor and Townsen Brown's
daughter were working on a book
together. And Tim Taylor also told Chris
Bledso's son that he was part of a
secret time travel group out of Nassau
in the Bahamas. Um, and I find that so
fascinating because I know a lot about
Towns and Brown and he was obsessed with
time travel and he spent a lot of time
in NASA in the Bahamas with some really
spooky interesting people like William
Stevenson for example who's a Canadian
who was Church Hill's super spy um you
know and helped form the CIA. So what do
you know about this Tim Taylor guy?
Okay. I met him in 2013
and um what happened was he's gone to a
conference and I have a business friend
of mine from Winnipeg
who basically like Chris Bleso he
doesn't go to the lecture he just sits
out in the hallway and talks to people.
So my friends talk and he meets Tim
Taylor he's from Nassau and they're
going on a dig and this is the Anderson
dig. This is the Anderson case and um so
he says we're going out in this dig. you
want you want to come along with us? So
Tim says, "Yeah, sure." So he for a
couple days they hang out and then they
go to this dig and Tim's getting this
stuff and I remember my friend said Tim
said when some of the stuff came up,
"This is the real deal." And um so he
had that and that's all I really knew
about him that they'd been at the dig. I
didn't I knew he was from NASA, but I
didn't really know anything about the
guy. So, I meet him at a at this guy I
talked to had all these these tape calls
from uh the the uh you know these this
alien calling on the phone and
um so we're in when this he built a
cabin we're in the cabin I'm there my
business friend is there Chris Mlet was
there and Tim Taylor comes only for a
day I don't think he came in the morning
I think he left in the evening and
according to Chris he only came to meet
Chris to get Chris's uh information
because he was going to go to Chris's He
wanted to meet Chris. He wasn't
interested in the rest of us. And if id
known who he was, I would have paid a
little more attention. I would have
asked a few more questions. I didn't
realize he was this like super black ops
whatever all the tickets and stuff like
that. So I had two conversations. One
was the download conversation. So uh I
had the download. So we're talking
downloads and he talked to me about the
invention. He gets the invention where
he sells this company for whatever 100
million 88 million on whatever. and he's
telling about the the the day he got the
invention and and Pulko talks about it
in the in the in her book about where
they go to the the uh Pentagon and the
onestar general says who came up with
this idea and they all pointed to him
and he this came in his head in the
morning he said grant the last thing I
remember the night before I got that
idea in my head I woke up and there was
a hooded figure standing at the end of
bed I said really could you see its face
he said I couldn't see his face I said
you're go you go to LA because he works
with cancer kids and he's all medical
stuff so he's in operating rooms and
looking at equipment that they're using
for cancer and he goes to LA and to to
Miami. So I said, "You're in LA all the
time. Why why don't you get a a
regression with uh Ivonne Smith and find
out who the being was?" And he said,
"Yeah, I might do that." And so that was
the one conversation I had. And the
other one we had was um this is the one
that ties into all the stuff you're
interested in. So he shows me this his
phone and that's what Tim Taylor does.
He doesn't tell you anything. He just
makes almost like read the breadcrumbs.
Here's the breadcrumbs. Figure it out.
So he shows me this photograph and it's
a painting and there's these two guys.
They're flying through space. Now I've
given you the photograph that I took
when I went to the building. So they're
flying through space and it looks like
they got pajamas on. It's really weird
and there's no name of the artist on it
or anything like that. They're flying
through space. One looks older than the
other. And uh then he says, "What do you
think of this?" I go, "I don't know. Two
two guys flying through space. I don't
know." And he shows me that's one of
these the moons. It's one of these three
photo three paintings where the the
eclipse happens in the third painting.
And he shows me another photograph all
these balls going down a down a tunnel
and they're getting smaller or whatever.
And what do you think of this? Uh Tim, I
don't know. I have no idea. I don't Why
are you showing me these photographs?
And then he shows me the on the side of
the building, these outer space
photographs on the other side of the
building. And he says, I don't know. And
he shows me this car. This is where it
starts to tie together. He shows me his
car on the top of the parade and it's
like a 56 or 57 Chev. And he's he's got
like a closeup of the back seat and
there's this a postcard there. He says,
"You know what that is?" I said, "What?"
He said, "Postcard." You know what it
says? I says, "No, what does it say?"
And some guy, "I wish I could travel
through time and space to be with you."
I said, "That's what it says." And he
says, "Yeah." And I said, he says, "What
do you think?" I said, "I still know. I
have no idea what you're talking about
here." He said, "You know what this is?"
I said, "No, I don't know." He said,
"So, use it's old used aircraft
building." And they had turned it into a
a office complex. And I said, I still
don't know what you're talking about.
And then he says, and then he says, oh,
I don't remember, but he said, this is
where the jump room was, or this is the
jump, this is the story of the jump
room. And I go, jump room? Can I see
those photographs again? Show me the
photographs. And he show the first one,
these two guys flying through space. And
he says, "You know where that is?" And I
says, "No." He says, "That's right
outside the elevator." I said, "Really?"
The story is the CIA story is they go up
to the fifth floor and then on the
elevator and then it goes across and
then they they they jump to Mars and
Obama's been there and I always thought
it was a garbage story, you know, Andy
Basiago who I actually had dinner with
and he's a really smart guy. He's a
really impressive guy when you talk to
him. And so I I phoned up Andy and I
said, "Andy, were you in the front
building or were you in the back
building when you were doing this jump
thing?" He said, "I don't remember. As a
little kid, I don't remember." And uh
cuz this is in the front building. And
uh so then he's uh he has this he's
showing me this thing. And then I says,
"Well, I'm when I go I'm going to I'm
going to photograph this because I and
it only occurred to me two years later.
I'm thinking to myself, what was Tim
Taylor doing there? If this is a stupid
story and this guy because then I had
learned who he was. If he's there, maybe
the story is true. Like why would he go
to this building to check this story
out?" M.
>> So I went there and I photographed it
all. He said, "Watch out for the guard
and there was this guard and it ties
into the whole portal thing." So I sort
of changed from the
>> So Tim Taylor
went to investigate the Andrew Bosiago
story.
>> Okay. And Bosiago is this guy who's done
lectures on the fact that he's
timeraveled.
>> Yeah.
>> To various places
>> all over the place. And everybody
thought it was a crazy case, but I
thought it was a crazy case, too. And
then I met Basiago and he didn't seem
that crazy. And he actually impressed me
quite a bit. And uh the other thing was
that why would Tim Taylor go there? I
mean, why he lives in uh I think he
lives in Huntsville.
>> And then the other story that with Tim
was was kind of funny cuz he then he
left and they phoned me a couple weeks
later.
>> He was in a restaurant in Huntsville
>> and it was really bad. I really couldn't
figure what he was talking about. He was
like a lot of noise and stuff. I just
remember the one part and it sort of
makes everybody feel better because you
always feel like Randy Dangerfield. I
don't get any respect here. And he said,
"My wife, my daughter was talking to me
the other day." And she says, "Dad, you
got to quit doing this stuff. This is
crazy. Like, what are you doing this
crazy stuff for?" And he said, I just
told her, I said, "Remember where the
Lexus comes from." And then he said,
"She shut up." So remember that even Tim
Taylor, this high level guy has his
family trying to you, you know, to stop
doing your
>> and is the implication there that it's
because he
>> embarrassing. He's you're embarrassing.
Well, that for sure. But then he created
Vivx Biotechnologies based on download
>> but she wouldn't know how they all all
the pieces of that
>> and that's like you know I think he sold
that for like 88 million bucks or
something.
>> So he's implying that like his interest
in the phenomena is what made him money
there. He's he's not implying that he
makes money by popping up into
experiencers live like that's his job is
he that that's more of like a fun thing
outside of his NASA credential.
>> I believe that's a secret. You think he
is working?
>> It's not nuts and bolts the way people
think it is. It's this weird.
>> It's this weird phenomenon
>> cuz that that's what the biggest
>> Do you think his work at the aerospace
corporation has anything to do with
UFOs?
>> Well, I think they're all working on it.
I mean, he, you know, he he'd be working
on those specific aspects
>> that lead down that road wherever he is
>> because that's another fedally funded
research and development center just
like IDA that we mentioned prior.
>> Yeah. So he that's the thing that's I
believe because that's what I I came to
because I spent a lot of time with Ron
Pandalfi and the main film I got he
always calls me a crook and a thief
because I I got this video that he put
up on the internet and I figured like
why would I not take this off the
internet and it was posted by his wife
>> and it's them going through the Panama
Canal and they're sitting there as Ron
>> Ron's wife Maliyah
>> uh Kashmir is sitting on Ron's lap
>> this guy by the name of John Sillison is
sitting right beside John by beside
Penduli
and Dan Smith is there and the
photographer is there and this thing's
going. They're just talking. There's a
lot of noise in the cafeteria. So his
wife says to him, "So footman," because
they always use these code names like
he's the footman, she's the princess. He
takes care of her, she's the princess.
Whatever. So he's man, what do you say?
And he says, quote, "People have always
wondered what it's like to go into the
next world. There's been a breakthrough.
the next time John and he looks over at
this John guy. Next time John goes to
the desert, a number of us here will go
into the next world and come back again.
And I went, "Wow, I got this film." And
um Makabe got a hold of the film and he
went to Ron. He said, "Do you see
Grant's posted this video?" He said,
"That guy's a crook. That guy's a
thief." And stuff. It's like the most
important video I ever seen. Because
that was the whole deal. So I was
talking to this guy by the name of Doug
Alt and he was very good friends with
both of them. And then there all this
thing about the portal started that they
had the portal and she'd come out of
this portal and stuff like they kept
talking portals. So I said to Doug, I
said, "I'm getting tired of this. I
mean, I've been chasing Pendulfie for 25
years." And I still say the biggest
question in euphology is not what are
UFOs, it's what the hell's Ron Pendulie
doing and what's he up to? And I said,
"I'm just tired of this. I'm going to
take off. Do you think I should I was
interested in the portal story? That's
all I'm interested in. Do you think I
should take off or should I stay
around?" And he and then he pauses. He
goes,
>> "Yeah, I should probably stick around."
>> Mhm. And then about two or three years
later, I'm talking to talk a lot of
hockey. So we're talking hockey and he
says, "Remember that question you asked
me a couple years ago?" I said, "Yeah,
it's real."
>> Who said that?
>> Doug Al. He said, "It's real."
>> Who is Doug Al?
>> He's a friend. He's a painter. So
Aaliyah is a painter painter and he's
he's a realist realistic painter. Like
he he'll paint uh
>> and what's his connection with all
these?
>> Oh, just I introduce all these people.
So what I do is I introduce all these
people to Ron Pandalfi and then they all
talk to him and then I say, "What's Ron
saying?" So I got all these sources
around Ron who are telling I never
talked to Ron. I talked to him a few
times but I don't talk to him. I just
listen to these people all around him.
What's Ron saying? What do he say about
this? What do he say about that?
>> Tell me about Ron himself because he
pops up in UFO world a lot. He's sort of
seems to be debunking people. He calls
people loons and crooks. And
>> well he called Ron Doug was doing a a
Broadway play uh off Broadway play and
and there was a song about Ron. was
called the offiscation that Ron had told
him, I'm I'm here to offiscate. Okay?
And and and yet he's he's he's like
disclosing, but he's not disclosing. And
that's this method that they use that
you can't tell he's telling the truth or
not. It starts in 91. So he's talking to
his friend Dan Smith. And Dan Smith said
he had a thousand conversations with Ron
about UFOs. And Ron is this very high
level guy. He's been at CI since 84.
He's rumored to brief the presidents on
uh Chinese tech and stuff like this. And
um so uh he he he meets Dan Smith.
Dan Smith's trying to find out about
Crop Circles. So he gets the phone
number. They give him phone number for
Ron. This guy probably knows. He phones
up and start talking and uh so he he
meets and he says, "Uh I'm going to Los
Alamos uh this week. I'm gonna talk to
I'm talking to Live Elliot." So So Dan
Smith, he's multi-millionaire.
He says, "Okay, fine." and he posts it.
He says, "Ron Pendulfie from the CIA is
going to go talk to aliens at at uh at
Los Alamos." So Ron contacts, he says,
"The next time you post, do not put my
name in CIA in the same sentence." He
didn't seem concerned about the live
alien thing. So, and and Dan Smith
phones Los Alamos and he says, "I want I
want I want I want to know about Ron Ron
Pendalfy. Is he coming there?" And he
said, "Hang on, who comes on the line
with John John Alexander?" And he said,
"Yeah, he's coming here." And and so
that's how it started with this thing
going to the live. So he tells all these
stories and then Ron gets mad at me. He
says Dan Smith's crazy. He's psychotic.
And you just repeat all the stuff he
says is not true. But he's feeding him
stuff. He's feeding him all these these
things about the portal and stuff like
that and actuators with this John
Silison guy that there's these actuators
that they pull out of the portals and
they've actually got this technology and
at one point they were actually going to
tell me I was talking to one of Ron's
assistants because I work on portals as
well at Mount Shast. I've got these four
main cases where I talked to the people
who were in the portal. They went into
the portal. And is the portal like you
go into another time, you go into
>> they can go right they can step from
here onto another planet. You just take
one step and you're on another planet,
>> another planet planet or you can go into
the portal in Mount Shasta where the
alien comes the alien lo their theory is
the alien lowers the vibration people do
oming meditating all they raise their
vibration and then this being comes. So
in 2014 they opened one 2015 I
interviewed almost everybody that was in
the portal. What did you see? He was
this 10- foot tall guy and he had boots
on. He had this thing on his chest and
these sparks are coming out of this
thing and and then what do you see this
10-ft tall guy and these two other
beings and these pe people hiding behind
trees and they had the look like little
iPads and they believed they were the
engineers that were keeping the
>> You think you think Pandalfi is like in
charge of these sort of he's he's
looking into these portals.
>> Yeah. That he's that he's he's in the
UFO technology that he's protecting it
but he's also making these sort of
indirect disclosures about this this
whole thing. And in case anybody thinks
we're sort of crazy here, I believe he
also was in charge of the Jasons, right?
>> He provided material for the Jason. So
Jason came out of IDA. There's one I
think it was MITER. I think his wife
used to work for the MITER Corporation
or whatever. Okay. There's connections
there, but there's a a document was
found about uh gravitational waves where
he was finding the speakers. There's it
shows Ron Bendalf's providing this the
the briefers.
>> Why do you think he's so interested in
gravitational waves? because
>> well he's he's interested in everything
he's interested in everything he's in
they're big ecologists and stuff like
that and uh he's
>> so he was not on the Jason's or no
>> cuz somebody was said somebody said he
set the agenda for the Jason
>> well he was providing the speakers or he
was providing I think it was the
speakers or
>> just one time the one time it was caught
on paper
>> so you never almost catch them on paper
like you can do fois on him he won't
show up on fois
you disappears
>> into the one of these guys where you
he's totally protected as to who he is
what he We weren't trying to find out. I
couldn't even find out what agency he
worked for. It was like, is he working
for CIA still? Is he working for because
he apparently worked for director of
national intelligence and then he he was
at the White House and then Dan Smith
says he's taking care of hamsters. They
do this bizarre stuff.
>> Do you think there are secret societies
that exist? You know, you have the JFK
speech, beware of the secret societies.
And we are as a people inherently and
historically opposed to secret
societies, to secret oaths, and to
secret proceedings.
>> They exist at a level kind of um more
fundamental than intelligence agencies.
And these groups have to do with the UFO
secrets at all.
>> Well, they would have all sorts. I would
say the secret societies are the guys
with the money. So, one of the big
things in in Washington was the Cosmos
Club. that the people who went to the
Cosmos Club were the insiders that they
would have these meetings. And I think
it's all like you do business. So,
whatever level you're talking to people
at business, you're in making a deal.
And if you're talking to a high level
guy and you're a high level guy, they're
talking about they may have a a UFO
thing going, they may have something
else going and it's all about, you know,
trying to do whatever they're doing and
make money. And but I think it's mostly
got to do with money and and and power
and and who, you know, it's that's where
the a barrier came from. these guys that
you have all these people trying to
figure out stuff and then these high
level guys who had some in engagement
with UFOs suddenly find out what's going
on and and they realize these other
people are around and they start talking
to
>> do you have any concrete examples of the
connection between the cosmos club and
UFOs
>> Walker was Walker was one of the one of
the people that's one of the things we
discovered and then I would look at bios
of all these highle guys and it would be
cosmos cosmos cosmos club
>> is that still around or
>> yep
>> I think so yeah interesting so that
that's one of the things and it may not
have anything to do with but it just it
just popped up all the time. And uh
>> what about like um families like you
know the Rockefellers like Lawrence
Rockefeller was obsessed with UFOs
trying to get Hillary Clinton into UFO
disclosure, right?
>> Yeah. And and I I I tried to get people
to his files are still there and I think
it's a Princeton but I'm not 100% sure
but his files are there and there's got
to be a gold mine even though his family
may have destroyed some of the stuff
because they had no use for him being in
this. She was embarrassing to the family
and stuff like that. And uh so and he
had an interesting story I could tell
about about there when I I the one big
thing I first got was I filed Makabe had
filed there's a friend of Ron Pendulfi
filed first then Makabe filed first guy
got 200 pages makabe got 500 pages so I
filed for all the um the what's called
the Rockefeller initiative now where
Rockefeller goes he he's talking Bud
Hopkins told me a story he's there
Jacobs and him are at uh him and Mack
are at uh Rockefeller's house And
Rockefeller is like a butler and he's
taking bringing him breakfast and stuff
like that. And they thought this is kind
of weird this billionaires, you know,
feeding us breakfast and stuff. And he
he said, "I'm going to I'm going to get
disclosure." And he said, "What do you
mean I'm going to the president? I'm
going to tell him to disclose." And they
said, "What? He's not going to do I'm
going to the president and he's going to
disclose." And they said, "Well, Mr.
Rockefeller, I don't think that's how it
works. I don't care. I'm going to get
disclosure." So they had this they knew
he was coming and that's when Penduli
gets involved. So they have to get a
briefing because uh Gibbons they realize
there's going to be this big meeting on
UFOs and they got to find out what's the
government position. What do we say? All
this stuff. So Gibbons calls in M he
calls in Ron Pendalfi to do the briefing
and this has been established that Ron
was called to do the briefing. This is
the idea that he'll brief executive
people the president if something comes
up as to what the actual fact is. like
Ron, there's even an email I have where
Ron says uh these senators and
congressmen, they're they're always uh
asking these questions and they they
don't realize that it's it's not the
material, it's the access to the
material and you can get in a lot of
trouble and I tell the senators that and
they just let me carry the keys. So I
call him the key, the guy with the keys.
He has the keys to all the compartments.
He knows exactly
>> Ron does what's classified and what's
not classified.
>> So you think Ron Pendulki exists at the
top of the UFO pyramid from a government
perspective?
>> Absolutely. And isn't didn't he do some
metallurgy related to
>> Well, that's that's another story. The
story was that his father gave him a
piece that he was they were involved
with the uh uh Glowar Explorer.
>> And and then so Ron had this piece and
he did a paper when he was 16 years old.
It was one of the reasons why he got
recruited. He did this metallurgist.
Yeah. I think apparently he's he's not a
physicist. He's a chemist. And he did
this metallergic analysis at 16 years
old.
>> A UFO piece.
>> Well, it's a piece of something. Ron Ron
will never tell you a straight story.
>> Okay. Okay. I mean, he did
>> and and and for context, Glomar Explorer
was this Hughes aircraft uh subca
explorer that uh a lot of people think
maybe retrieved you know exotic
technology at the seafloor
>> and then there's a story that his father
had given him a piece and and then he
was taken away. I don't know there's the
stories Ron Ron never really but it
definitely there was a piece he did
analysis very young age and that had
something to do with how he got involved
with UFOs and stuff like that and then
then you get like there's always these
connections like for example Kit Green
Kit Green was involved in Glor Explorer
so was uh Eric Walker
>> really
>> and so when uh Kit Green saw Eric
Walker's bio he says to Vacet have you
seen this guy's bio this guy is
Unbelievable. And they were looking at
our book of what Walker had said. And
this guy's claiming this and that. And
he said, "I'm going to get a clearance.
I'm going to go talk to him because I
talked to Bill Moore. Bill Moore says,
"I don't believe this Walker guy's as
high as you say he is, but I got a
friend. His name is BJ. He's going to go
and and talk to him." And BJ is the Blue
Jay. The Kit Green is the Blue Jay. So
Kit Green gets this clearance and he
goes to to Walker at Penn State. And
according to Jacqu Kelly, the way the
stories, they're sitting there and they
talk about Glorar Explorer, CIA days,
Glorar Explorer, and they both worked on
it and stuff like that. and everything
was going good. And then uh kid bring
brings up UFOs. You made these
statements about uh crash saucers and
stuff like that. And he said Walker just
blew up and he started yelling at him.
You're at the president. I don't have to
tell you anything. Why don't you think I
tell you anything? You get a letter from
the president. I'll check it to make
sure it's from the president and then
I'll talk to you about you and you get
out of my and he's and he's talking to a
bunch of books in a corner to give the
indication that he'd gone crazy and and
that the room was tapped and there was
these there's the room was tapped and
they were listening in the books and and
get out of my office and kick kick green
out of the office. Wow.
>> And uh so this is a story that Kit
Green's told and Jack tells it in his
diary.
>> K has held a long CIA clearance said
I'll get the clearance. He got the
clearance necessary to talk to him and
there was the one condition and this
comes back to the thing about the
president. You're not the president. I
don't have to tell you anything.
>> And Jacqu Valle writes about this in
Forbidden Sciences diaries. That's
fascinating. Well, what's interesting to
me is you're saying that Ron Pendalfi is
head of the CIA weird desk and he sits
at the top of the pyramid and he kind of
knows where all the compartments are.
But then you're simultaneously saying
his predecessor, Kit Green, uh, who also
ran the CIA Weird Desk, didn't really
have an understanding of the program.
>> Well, the story I heard was that Kit
Green basically had been read in on most
of it, but he couldn't get read in on
the the autopsy thing
>> and that he was fighting and and they
had given him an offer to do it and then
they would pull it back and all this
kind. That's the story I was hearing
back 20 years ago that he couldn't get
read into that program that he knew sort
of the other stuff
>> and but he he knows a lot. I think he
was one of the people that briefed uh
Semivan because he's the guy that told
Semivan about Tom Dong. He said this
guy's music guy and he's doing this sort
of stuff and then they went to Tom Dong.
It was Semivan and Kate Green. They got
Tom Dong in a hotel room and they said
like where'd you get this stuff from?
Because they realized this was some of
this stuff was was borderline classified
material that was in Tom Dong's book and
they apparently for two days they talked
to Tom Dong and then they realized oh
he's nothing. and they realized the
program I they say they realized there's
nothing classified and so they dropped
it but then he becomes co- uh owner or
whatever of to the stars with with
semivan and Tom Delong which indicates
that they go along with the program they
realize he knows he's he knows all the
guys he knows McCastlin he knows Rice
and stuff and what are you doing with
this guy and that's what happened with
John Podesta so when when Podesta when
when Tom Dong goes to Podesta Podesta
says well call me back in a couple of
months I'm kind of busy right now. And
what Podesta is doing is he's got to run
the thing. Who's talking to this who's
talking to this guy? What are we doing?
Are we dropping something on this guy?
And stuff like that. And then they give
him the clearance. So then Podesta
phones phones Tom Dong and says, "I'm
ready. This is important. Fly to
Washington." And then he flies. So
suddenly John Podesta, somebody's told
him, "You can work with this guy. This
is what you can tell him." and they have
this meeting where all these guys are at
this meeting in in uh 2016 in January
and uh that you have the weird story
where John Podesta he always told the
story when he was in Clinton White House
this joke about he would always leave he
worked day and night at the White House
but it was his ex-files he went home
this Thursday night or something he
would go home to watch the X-files and
then in the in the meeting I make the
joke where the one of the people in
there is Robert Weiss in the meeting so
Robert Weiss after they have this
meeting with John Podesta about
disclosure whatever they're doing
because Hillary was going to disclose.
That's clear. Yeah. And after a couple
days after, Robert Weiss writes a letter
and says, "Is is is we got any
information, any follow-up information?"
Because like I said, was we're going to
follow up on this kind of stuff. And now
you got the Area 51 guy phoning to find
out what's what what they know about
Area 51. And before it was he's asking
John Podesta was going Area 51. And John
Podesta before was asking what's he
wanted to go to Area 51 and find out
what's going on, talk to them. So you
got this whole thing where Hillary was
going to disclose and then what happened
was uh the leak of the emails the
Podesta emails and it all the three I
call them the three kings Podesta Mccay
and uh Robert Weiss they get exposed and
suddenly boom they blown their cover and
they've never appeared since they've
just disappeared into nowhere and then
he has to bring in the B team. So then
he brings in uh uh uh Lou Alzando and
that I call them the B team. they bring
them in. But what happened? I even
talked to Chris. So when Hillary lost
the election, because they talked about
the seven-year plan, the same as
Schumer, they talked about the
seven-year plan with the nine people
under the president and we got subpoena
power and we can force for force all the
material back from the contractors and
stuff. That was all before 2016 Hillary
was going to do it. And Hillary,
according to the Podesta notes, she had
this all planned that she they were
going to promote this stuff. And John
Podesta was actually saying, "Ask her
about the aliens." one of the reporters,
come on, ask her about the aliens. They
he wanted this story out because they
wanted Hillary to talk about she was
going to do the disclosure thing and she
was going to go on Kimmel in November of
2015 and she went on there and he didn't
ask her the UFO question and then she
wanted the podesta thing. She was
furious. She had practiced this five
minute spiel. She had it all down what
she was going to say and then didn't ask
her the question.
>> How do you know that? So Kimmel had
>> it's in it's in the podesta emails.
>> And then she and then she goes in April.
>> Wow. and and and then he asked her the
question and that's when she says, "I'm
going to get to the bottom of this." And
he said, "Well, your husband tried to
get to the bottom of it. He couldn't get
anywhere." "Well, I'm going to do it
again." She said,
>> "I'm going to
I'm going to do it again."
>> Yeah.
>> This is all planned that she was going
to do disclosure. So, when she didn't
get it, uh Chris Blesa was feeding me
all the material about what was going
on. They were going to drop this thing
with Hillary Clinton. They had it all
planned out and all this stuff was going
to be disclosure. And then Hillary lost
the election. And so I phoned up Chris
the same day. I said, "Chris, so what's
going on? Is it dead? Is it No." He
said, "Green light still going. It's
even bigger than before." And I go,
"Okay." And then it took him 9 10 months
for Tom Delong to get the the next team
of people. And then they made that
October 11th uh appearance on To the
Stars. And that's when To the Stars
happened.
>> Now, if there's a subject
that could potentially change the world,
how would one approach it? Especially if
the subject contained earthchanging
technology. It was going to happen
before. It was all planned absolutely
before. You even have the the emails
going to the Rockefeller thing. Hillary
was really into this thing. They had the
there was two documents in the
Rockefeller files and I couldn't figure
out what they were. One said all the
stuff going from Rockefeller to the
science adviser from science adviser to
the Rockefeller is going through the
mail the mailbox of Hillary Clinton. And
I'm going why would Hillary Clinton be
why we going through her office? And
then the the other one um I can't
remember the second, but this one I
figured out what it was was the
president is as as he told uh
Rockefeller at the ranch. He told
Rockefeller it's like the story of the
uh tar baby. You heard the Arkansas tar
baby story. That's what it's like. You
can't touch it. If you touch it, you get
stuck to it. And then you try to fight
and you get stuck and you kick in your
foot and you get stuck. And he told
Rockefeller, "It's I can't touch it.
It's like the Rockefeller guitar baby."
And so said this Clinton to Rockefeller
at the ranch.
>> And so he he um
>> Hillary or Bill?
>> Bill.
>> Okay.
>> Because Hillary didn't come down. They
did the briefing. Rockefeller wanted to
get him away from the CIA at the ranch.
Then he gave the briefing
>> and Hillary Hillary watched the briefing
and it was Bill's birthday. Bill didn't
come down to the briefing. He didn't
because the president can't be involved.
He can't he can't touch the subject
because then he gets stuck. And that's
the problem I say Trump has right now.
He's touched the tar baby and now he's
stuck to the tar baby and he's gonna
have to ask a million and one questions
about what's going on, all the
conspiracy theories, all the sort. He's
just going to be inundated. It's gonna
be stop. It's like the epine stop. Stop.
Is there anything else we can talk about
here except UFOs? He's going to get
frustrated with all the questions he's
got. But uh so the reason they put it
through her is that she knew what was
going on between Rockefeller and the
science adviser. And she'd go to Bill in
the evening and say, "This is what's
going on." And then he'd tell her what
to say. she wasn't part of the
government so she could she could do
this sort of stuff. They didn't want any
paper trail leading to the president and
and that that's what I think goes on is
that the presidents are told this
plausible liability thing if you really
need something we'll read you in on it
or the basic policy because according to
semivan the basic policy is that it's a
program and people say well security
clearances well the president controls
all security clearances he's all
security clearances go through the the
executive office of the president of the
United States people don't realize he's
in control of security clearance he
doesn't have a security clearance he can
fire anybody pull security clearance. He
pulled uh you know Biden security
clearance.
>> That's why when you hear stuff like I
want to get to the bottom of it and
you're Trump, you should expect him to
get to the bottom of it because all this
stuff rolls up, you know, eventually to
the executive branch. So,
>> and I think they just tell them better
to stay clear, don't touch it, and if
you need something, we'll we'll tell you
what's going on. It's being controlled
by these people. Yeah.
>> Well, maybe there's a tide shift now
because Trump is so volatile and hard to
predict and you know
>> Yeah. Well, I think he got caught off
guard. I don't think he even realized
cuz that that's what happened. The Fox
News guy asked as asked him, "Well, you
know, Obama said this or whatever."
>> Well, then but then he doubled down and
>> then he said, "Oh, it's it's classified
material." And then the the reporter
said, "So you're saying aliens are
real?" And they went, "Oh, no, no, no."
And then he started to back off and he
realized he'd said this that it was
classified. And that so I say that it
wasn't Obama that broke this the the
classification because he didn't say
this is classified material but Obama
said Trump said that's CL aliens that's
classified which means you're exposing a
classified program. If if there's a
somebody asks you about a classified
program you're supposed to say I can
either confirm or deny or say no you
lie. You do not expose because the even
the existence of the program is exposing
the program. If somebody realizes there
is actually a program then everybody
knows where to go. And that's what
happened to Jimmy Carter when he was
trying to get reelected. He mentioned
the stealth and that's one of the
reasons why he was he was just
absolutely ridiculed because they had to
move all the parts and they had open
satellites were suddenly going over
Burbank. They knew where the where the
stealth was being built and stuff like
that and they were just furious at him
because he made this reference to the
stealth.
>> Grant you are clearly a wealth of
anecdotes. I'm just so impressed your
knowledge uh over over the last you know
uh three four decades on this topic.
It's just really really impressive. I I
I want to given how much you know get to
some discrete truths because I think in
UFO world often you end up in sort of
everything is everything land you know
and it's it's I think it's important to
kind of concretize things. So uh you do
you believe you we have crash retrieval
and reverse engineering programs?
>> Uh yes.
>> Do you believe this sort of time travel
portal thing as well? There are programs
where people are going into jump rooms
and going across time and space through
>> I would say nature reality if you go
down there's no time there's no space
you get into that kind of stuff that's
where Jim sean said it's indigestible
>> but has this been turned into technology
that is repeatably usable in a
predictable way so I want to go to
>> metal I well some like metal nitall I
think was something developed from the
Roswell crash you
>> but I'm talking about the portal stuff
so like
>> yeah well this where this tape from Ron
because he didn't know it was going to
be public. He had no idea that that I
would grab this off the internet and
grab it and he's definitely talking
about portals and when I talk to these
people in the portals that's definitely
true and then I hear the story.
>> Do you think they can walk into a room
and we can predictably because Andrew
Bosiago let's just get clear he
literally says I went back to the
Gettysburg address.
>> So like do you think that there's a way
to predictably send somebody to a
specific moment in time and the
government knows that? I think there's a
better chance of that than that we have
some sort of ships that are flying
to other planets. I I the nuts and bolts
thing I think is going to fall apart.
It's more
>> So you think we don't we haven't made a
lot of progress on the crafts we do?
>> If we got any technology, it's going to
be portal time travel technology.
>> Okay. And then we don't we haven't made
a lot of progress on the crafts we have.
>> Well, that's according to Semivan James
Lassky. They they may be lying. They may
be not read in. Uh but I I look at my
father's I tell the story my my father
was World War II. He's his Air Force
World War II.
>> So he brought this bomb home from World
War II, you know, and it it it was
deactivated and whatever. And my my
son's got it now. And I watched the the
Ukrainians drop bombs on on the Russians
and it's the same bomb. It's smiles
down. And I'm going like, where's the
high-tech? I mean, you think we'd have
this high-tech? Why do you lose the the
Afghan war to a bunch of guys driving
around on camels? I mean the Somalia had
the fourth weakest army in the world and
the Americans had to pull out of there
and you start wondering because all the
technology the the the F47 coming now
it's still a plane with wings and it's
going faster and it's got more jamming
technology and all that kind of stuff. I
just don't see the technology but when
it comes to the the uh the the uh time
stuff and the the mind stuff I'm sure
they've got stuff. I even showed a video
one time about uh this is White World
Technology. You can look it up. You
Google uh rat brain F-22 and it's from
the University of Southern California,
Southern Florida. And it's a guy doing
he takes 20,000 neurons of a rat brain,
puts them in a little petri dish, wires
them into an F-22 simulator and they
start sending signals back and forth and
the first day there's neurons are all
there. Second day they're starting to
form. Third day it's a brain that
they're all talking to each other and
stuff like that. and they wire it and
they got the F-22 flying with the 20,000
rat brain neurons and then they change
the wind and they got everything you can
put crosswinds and and thunderstorms and
stuff and the thing keeps flying it.
That's 20 21 year old technology, white
world technology. Can you imagine what
they've got in this whole bio thing?
Because I wrote the whole book on uh UFO
sky pods where I write 36 people that
mysteriously came to me and all said,
"I've flown the craft." And the first
>> Really?
>> Well, yeah. And the first the first
woman that told me this I I got
>> you had 36 people say they've flown the
craft
>> and I've got way more than that now.
Yeah.
>> Can I interview any of them?
>> Sure.
>> Who where are these people?
>> My assistants is one. Uh Whitney Striber
is one. Uh
>> oh. Flown inside the craft.
>> Flowning the craft.
>> I thought you But like
>> fly the craft. Like fly it with your
mind.
>> Sure. But not like walked inside a
hanger in a facility like Bob Lazar did.
Get in and then fly it. Like
>> not not in a facility. They they like I
got to
>> because I would just I would make a
distinction between somebody who gets
abducted or taken by the
>> I don't think I don't think the
government has much they can fly. I
don't think they that's the whole thing.
That's why
>> but but but what what happened when the
Bob Bazar case where he walks underneath
the craft?
>> Well, that that's that's one that I
really cannot explain. Whether that's
electrostatic or they got some other way
or magic trick or something that they
wanted them to see this and they've got
some other way. So, none of your 36
witnesses have like walked into a, you
know, top secret facility or whatever.
And
>> they all find themselves on a craft or
they're they're experiencers. Yeah.
>> I've got a 747 United Airlines pilot. I
got a a retired US Airore Colonel
Whitley uh my assistant Whitley
Strieber. Wow. Uh a lot of people that
the first woman that came to me, uh
>> I'd love to talk to the colonel. I I
yeah he's he was in the the um uh
California
>> um Orange County group me group. Okay.
He came after they said we're after the
group and they said hey David David you
miss grand was talking about flying
craft. Tell them your story. I said you
flew the craft. And he said
>> well it seemed like a dream. I said
everything's just a dream.
>> Okay.
>> And then he said well yeah. I said and
then he said tell me what you do David.
And I said what do you do? He said I'm a
pilot. I said oh my son's a pilot. My
father's a pilot. What do you fly? said,
"Uh, F-16s." I said, "F16s?" He said,
"Yeah, I'm a retired US Air Force
colonel out of Iraq." Said, "Sit down
and tell me your story." And and he just
tells a story. I'm on a craft. He says,
"I suddenly find myself on a craft."
This is where you start getting into
this weird stuff that I'm researching
that everybody slip by. I'm standing on
a craft. I'm standing on a craft. Just
suddenly I'm on a craft and somebody's
behind me and they're telling me what to
do. And that becomes important. So he
says, "Somebody's standing behind me and
telling me what to do." And they say,
"Go ahead and do it." And he says, "I
don't know what to do." And they said,
"You know what to do. Just do it." And
he sees this panel. He goes to put his
hands on the panel. He said, "Sudden."
They say, "He's flying an F-16." And he
said it was so weird. And he's flying
it. And he takes his hand off a little
bit because he's ready for it to stall.
He takes his hand off, nothing happens.
He's got his hand so he can put it back
down again. Takes it off. He takes the
other hand off and he's flying it. And
it's like, "Holy cow." And then the
important thing was these people behind
him. So then I started I later on Jim
Semivan tells the story. So he's telling
the story. He's got the beings in the
room and uh he he doesn't want to talk
about it. He says, "No, I don't want to
talk about it. You know, there people
investigating it." No, all that sort of
thing. I never want to talk about it.
And anyway, so then the the interviewer
James uh Ian Dolly says, "So was there
any telepathy involved?" And they said,
"That was the strangest part." He said,
"I was standing there with my wife and
these beings were there and there was
somebody behind me. I could see whether
it was an alien or gray a gray or a tall
white. I don't know what it was, but it
had this guardian type thing about it.
And I'm going guardian type thing. If
you study Michael Newton, you know the
gu you go before the panel after you
die, you go in front of the panel and
your spirit guide stands behind you on
the left side. And this is a common
story. The spirit guy stands on the left
side. So I said to James, I said, "Phone
back, ask him what side it was on." And
then I talked to Whitley. I said, "Hey,
Whidley, I got this weird thing with
these people flying the craft that
there's always somebody behind them
who's telling them what to do." I said,
"You were in the craft?" He said,
"Yeah." He said, "Do you ever have
anybody telling you what to do?" He
said, "All the time." He said, "I told
you when I was going to fly the craft."
He said, "I was going to steal it." I
said, "I got like to steal this thing."
And somebody started laughing behind
him. And he so he they got this
confirmation of this weird these weird
things about somebody standing behind
them. What's really going on here? And
uh but a lot of these people and the
whole thing is you put your hand on
something like Chris Blessel. So Chris
Blessel flew the craft. Then when I
heard you flown the craft, I said, "You
flew the" It was just synchronicity of
all these people coming to me at the
same time. Said, "Chris, you flew the
craft." He said, "Yeah." Said, "Stop
right there. I'm going to phone you on
Skype. I want you to start from the
beginning. I want you to go to the end
for five minutes." I said, "Okay." What
happened? Went to the craft. We got on
the on the on the went inside and he
said, "There was a there was a the
beings were there." He draws actually
where the beings were, where he was, and
there was this pedestal. And the weird
thing was I've got 36 people. Nobody
touched the same thing. Every it's a
different story. So his there was this
pedestal standing in the middle and it
had this sort of like a uh a beehive on
the top and it was black. It was like
black plastic and then he said he put
his hand on they told him put his hand
on the on the on this black thing and he
took his hand off and it looked like
like a a CD ROM, you know, with the
colors going through it and he could see
where his handprint was. And then he
said the they had these these hexagons
in the wall and these hexagons were
spinning and he said they started to
spin. And they got bigger and bigger and
bigger and bigger, bigger and bigger.
And he said, "Suddenly the window opened
and there was a Capefare River." And he
said, "I sat cross-legged on the on the
floor looking out the window flying down
the Capefir River where I was abducted
going, "Yay!"
down the river. And so he he's he's
flown the craft. He get these these
weird stories and people where they
would say this thing where this
indigestible thing where what's really
going on. So two of them, one is this
Ron Johnson guy. They asked Ron Johnson.
They say, "Ron, where would you like to
go?" Said, "I'd like to see the Milky
Way from a distance." And this is
important. They say, "Ron, it is within
you. Go within yourself. When you can
imagine it, then we'll go there." I've
got a couple of witnesses said, exactly
the same thing. So, he imagines this
thing and he said, "Boom." He said, "One
second, intense G-force and almost like
papers. It's like going through a book,
going through dimensions or whatever is
going on." And he said it was just
intense for one second. And he looked
out the window and there was the Milky
Way off in the distance. And other
people describe instantly going from one
place to another. the same thing where
you're told what to think and that's the
question you start wondering what's
really going on like remote viewing
what's going on with the remote viewing
if you give the guy a target 45379
and you say okay and the guy says okay
I'm at the target he doesn't say hang on
I'm flying there I'll be there in five
minutes you know he's instantly at the
target and that's what the the Sufi
expression that Greer always uses you
see yourself as a puny form when within
you is infolded the entire universe and
that's this question what's really going
on about the the computerized world
simulation is there actually a world
that's all just you know it's all just
waves there's no physical world there's
no time and space fields are primary
matter is second you can Google search
it fields are primary matter is second
and you start relooking at at at reality
and I think that's what the phenomena is
doing I call it the theory wow or the
Jesus circus so all they're doing is
they're doing these weird weird things
that make you go what the heck is going
on that crop circle it's hoax but how
did they do do it and you start
wondering and when you got on curiosity
or as Einstein said mystery is is at the
bottom of all scientific in in creation
it's mystery it's get you on curiosity
where you wonder what's going on if you
if you got it all figured out you're not
going to do any investigation but
everybody in the U field is doing the
same thing they're trying to figure out
what's over there and that's what
they're trying to get you to do is
they're trying to get you to expand your
mind and just say if this paranormal
stuff is happening something we got is
wrong and that's when I talk about
skepticism if you look at the cart
Everybody brings up Dart and skepticism.
I say skepticism to me is the left brain
interpreter. It's that little voice in
your head that just makes up garbage all
the time. It just puts it's a blue,
don't worry about it. And then it won't
back off. And Dart said when he talks
about skepticism, he says, I may have to
I may have to throw out everything I've
ever learned. And that's what it's
about. That's where Mark Twain famous
expression. It's not what you don't know
that gets you in trouble. It's what you
know that just ain't so. And that's
what's happening. We're realizing the
world is not the way we think. And
that's what the phenomena is trying to
do. And that was the answer to my
question. When it was flying away that
second night, you go, "What's it doing?
It's just doing these weird things."
People have a UFO saying, I say, "What
was it doing?" I don't know. It wasn't
doing anything. I said, "Do you think it
knew you saw it?" "Yeah, I think so."
Well, I think you're right. I do think
the phenomena engages in sort of
systematic uh and random uh brain
scrambling that sort of raises our
consciousness in a way that, you know,
it's always this game of whack-a-ole. is
always going to be high strangeness and
not match some prior thing. And um I
think you are doing this right now in
this interview. So
I I'm so impressed by you. I think you
might be an alien, Grant. This is this
is really fun and you are just filled
with uh so many anecdotes and so much
knowledge and uh I love that you've
explored so many things around
government programs, nuts and bolts. Uh
and you're probably the tip of the spear
of a lot of that stuff. I mean you
literally were responsible for getting
out the Wilson Davis memo and then you
come to this sort of conclusion that we
are you know that's more metaphysical
that we are in this sort of you know
physical realm but there are these sort
of you know events that occur at the
margins with this sort of more spiritual
realm in some sort of I don't know this
sort of simulation theory or something
and Jacqu Vile obviously talked about a
control system
>> I used to think he was nuts I used to
think he was totally nuts then he made
that famous statement I'd when I see the
I'm in a movie theater and I see the
screen. I look at that little hole in
the wall and I say, "Boy, I'd like to
get the key and go into that room and
see what's going on where that light's
coming out of the that's the whole thing
of the cave, you know, where you seen
the the images." And that's that's where
I think they're trying to force us.
They're trying to force us
>> to question what we understand.
>> Or, you know, um, reality itself is like
a mirror. I'm getting this from taking
this from um trans surfing reality which
is one of my favorite books by a guy
named Vadim Zeand who's this reclusive
uh Russian uh physicist quantum
physicist who it might be a conglomerate
of you know certain people or uh or uh
yeah it might be a patchwork of other
people but um you know sort of I don't
know fell off the map and he says it's
like you know you're standing in front
of a mirror on the mirror you see this
sort of you know it's not a perfect you
know there's there's somewhat of a lag.
Obviously, the photons have to bounce
back and forth between your eyes, but
you're seeing this sort of expression of
kind of what's in your mind, like
projection of your subconscious. Oh,
yeah. Um, exactly.
>> I think in reality, obviously, you're
seeing projection of your subconscious
married to something that is a little
more objective, kind of like a a neutral
monist sort of viewpoint. Um, but then
you you take a step back outside of the
mirror and you look around and that's
reality itself. So, it's like you have a
headset on at all times or something.
>> Yeah. And you see that the reflective is
is a big word now that I start to use.
Uh Brandon Fugal uses it when he goes to
Skinwalker Ranch. He says clearly
>> the phenomena is reflective. Be careful
what you think when you go on the on the
on the on the ranch that if you like
these three guys, the armed guys, the
special forces guys that went on there
and they were going to play, you know,
Hunter Skinwalker and the phenomenon, I
always call it the intelligence, what I
just call it the intelligence, whatever
it is. And it says, "You want to play
Hunter Skinwalker? We'd love to play
that game." And these guys are running
for the
>> Yeah. Um, what's inside of you will get
excavated just like a psychedelic trip
or something. And and I think yeah, he
has another story of a Hell's Angels
chief or whatever, you know, getting
zapped and then a catatonic steak just
just, you know, paralyzed there.
>> Taylor was mouthing off and they give
him this little zap, you know, with the
the radioactivities.
>> Is that Travis Taylor? Travis Taylor.
>> That's interesting. I also went probably
at my highest ego time in my life and I
didn't have a great month afterwards and
I don't know how correlated that was. It
wasn't explicitly paranormal. But
>> Grant, this has been a pleasure, man. I
really really appreciate this. Hopefully
I can get you out to Austin, Texas.
>> I'd love to do this in the studio and
and follow up because I I just really
get the sense we kind of just scratched
the surface. But um
>> watch watch my new stuff. I I think I'm
I've been led and I think I'm on the
right. Especially I think I mentioned to
you I've got a a an experiment that's
about to go one way or the other on the
proof of the soul.
>> You should talk to Chris about that.
I'll let that be. It's
led me a lot of times but
>> where I get, you know, a lot of
downloads and I get a lot of direction
and Tim Taylor says the same thing, you
know, and Gary Nolan says the same
thing. I don't know. I don't know what's
going on. I don't know if there's little
elves in my head, but I know how to make
it work. And he tells this whole story
about how he puts strings together and
he puts all things he thinks about it
and then he puts on a piece of paper
beside the bed and he said either the
next morning or within a couple days the
answer is in my head.
>> Wow. So you see these people are
starting to learn this this these things
that it's not the physical world people
think it is. It's much more grand. It's
much more magnificent. And the the
deeper you look into the the microscopic
stuff, the more complex it gets. The
more you look out there, the more
complex it gets. More grand. And that's
what they're trying to tell us. It's not
this simple world that you think it is.
And and they do that through this weird
weird weird stuff which everybody's down
the rabbit hole. You can't get out. You
know what to do. And so, yeah, I'm to me
it's the Super Bowl. And I'm I'm glad to
have played in the game. You're the same
thing. It's like most people live lives
of quiet desperation and have no clue
what's going on. And you and I not only
know that there's a game, we're inside
the stadium and we're on the field,
maybe the water boy, the quarterback or
whatever, but we're playing the game,
which is the Super Bowl of all sorts.
Well, you might be the quarterback. I'm
I'm special teams. But Grant, on that
note, appreciate you, man.
>> Thank you for what you do. You're the
big voice that's that has to has to move
it out. So, it doesn't really help if if
I learn it and don't tell anybody. So,
thanks for what you do.
>> Oh, well, I app Thank you, man. I'm I'm
just the I make videos. So,
>> yeah. Awesome.
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