People of the UK and Ireland, I'm coming
to you live. Imagine that. Me on stage
in your city. Dublin is completely sold
out, but everywhere else has got limited
tickets left and you can get yours now
at chriswillson.live. This is a
customuilt live show. I absolutely adore
it. I've spent over a year working on
it. So, if you're a fan of everything
Modern Wisdom, come and see me on stage
this October around the UK and Ireland.
Chris Williamson.Live.
[groaning] Well, I'm headed [singing]
back [music] to Austin, trying to find
me again.
Something [singing and music] to keep me
busy. Keep these hands from trembling.
And it's something [music and singing]
like the weather to try and mock my
mind. I'll try [music] to think of
something [singing] clever to keep me
satisfied.
Well, I'll take burning on the weekend
straight down [singing and music] 29.
Pass the cedars and believers
on [singing and music] a rain and drive
when to get out of the city and pass the
[music and singing] smell of the ball.
Watch the planes go on by
[music and singing]
in the sky bleeding scars.
What do you believe [music]
in?
Cuz I've been having [music and singing]
trouble sleeping.
The only thing I'm needing is somewhere
I can't find. [singing]
[music]
So, I'm [singing] headed back to Austin.
When I close [singing] my eyes, [music]
if you only at my best, [music] then
I'll proudly pay [singing] my due.
Trying to focus what's [music] ahead.
And the winter blues takes a simple kind
[music and singing] of moment to put my
mind at ease. It takes a girl who says
she loves me to make [music and singing]
me weak in the name.
[music]
What do you believe [singing] in?
[music]
Cuz I've been having [singing] trouble
sleeping. [music]
The [singing] only thing I need is
somewhere I can't find.
So I'm [singing] headed back to Austin
when I close [music and singing] my
eyes.
[music]
[music]
>> [music]
>> What do you believe in?
Cuz I've been having trouble sleeping.
[singing]
The only thing I'm needing is somewhere
I can't find.
So, I'm [singing] headed back to Austin
[music]
when I close my eyes.
[music]
>> Let's [ __ ] go. Woohoo.
>> Thank you, dude. Yeah.
>> Unbelievable. So good.
>> Thank you very much.
>> Great to see you.
>> That uh that one's about Austin, Texas,
obviously.
>> Very timely.
>> Yeah.
>> Did you write most of Cole in 25
minutes? Is that right?
>> Yeah. Yeah. Cole Cole was written one
one of the fastest ones I've probably
ever written.
>> Yeah. It uh it started I can kind of
show you. So it it started just with
uh
maybe not this exact chord progression.
It was a little bit different. I might
have an old video of it I could show
you, but I think I almost I think it
just started with kind of that hook, the
they say pressure makes diamonds hit,
you know? I was like, that's that's
great. That's a song. We got to build
around it. And uh then yeah, verse by
verse and it was just I remember I was
like had my phone typing on top of our
dog kennel in the apartment at the time
and it was like right before we went out
with like some work friends and none of
my friends knew I sound like at all. I
didn't I don't know. I just don't go
around telling people. And uh wrote
wrote Cole went out and Julia, my wife,
was just stoked on it. She was like,
"This is so sick." Um and she was just
showing people like Snapchat videos of
the song. She [laughter] was like, you
know, just what do y'all think about
this? And they're like, "Dylan, you
sing?" And I was like, "Cats out of the
bag, I guess." Uh and then didn't do
anything with it for like a year or two.
>> No way. [snorts]
>> You sat on that You sat on a song that
did like half a billion streams.
>> Yeah.
Well, I just I wasn't I wasn't I wasn't
on socials like I wasn't put anything
out. Uh I I I didn't do anything until
we were on a camping trip um with my
buddy Kaden and his now wife MK and my
wife and I Julia and uh I brought my
guitar and was just playing some songs
and Kaden has like the best ear of
anyone I know. He's like in ANR that's
not doesn't work in ANR. And he heard
Cole and he's like please sing it again.
He like voice memoed it and he's like
you got to do something. You have to do
something. And my wife was like, "Dylan,
you should just post on Tik Tok." And I
was like, "Well, I'm not, you know, I'm
not a Tik Tocker." I was like, "I
honestly can't stand it." Like, I don't
It's just not my It's not my thing. Um,
but yeah, I started doing it and then
Cole became this thing, which is insane.
One of my buddies, I was best man at his
wedding, godfather to his kid, and he
was playing,
we were at a friend's house who has a
karaoke machine, and I don't even know
why there was a guitar there, and he'd
been doing exactly the same thing. I
bullied him, bullied him. I was like,
"No, come on. Come on." Cuz the choice
was between him playing acoustic guitar
with beautiful voice and one of our
friends sad emo rapping. And I was like,
"Hey, look, [laughter]
>> the the decision is really easy for me
to make in terms of a pressure. The
[ __ ] floor, dude, is so low for you
to get over here.
>> Uh, so I'm interested.
>> Where were you in life when you were
doing those lyrics? Like, what what what
is that song called?
>> So, I was living in Austin. I I I worked
in Are you talking about Cole? You
talking? Yeah, Cole. We So, I was living
in Austin. Uh, I I was working at the
racetrack, the circuit of the Americas
down here. So, I was uh at the time I
was in event operations. I think I was I
was out I I started as an intern. And I
used to live there in like a a trailer
in my parents RV for months. Um and I
just lived at the job site. Um but I uh
yeah, I was working there and it might
have just kind of been through like a a
tough season. Like F1 season is just
kind of brutal, especially for like the
outside guys. Uh you're just I mean it's
just like 20our days like you're living
out there when it's F1 time. And um I
don't know. It was like that. It might
have been some you know inner
interpersonal family thing, you know,
whatever it might have been at the time.
Um, you know, I always try to say like
it's it's a it's a pretty deep kind of
dark song, but I try to tell people I
wasn't in like the worst spot of my
life, you know, but I, you know, I was
just going through everyday struggles,
you know, just like like everybody does.
And um, that's kind of what it was. I
feel like I was in a pit. I was like,
I'm not going anywhere. Yeah.
>> It's not I'm not really like
>> I don't know. I don't feel like I'm
chasing anything right now. Like I'm
having a great life. Like me and my wife
and our dog, we're having great like
we're very happy. And uh I was like but
a lot of other stuff we were just like
you know whatever you know so
>> it's [laughter] interesting there's like
a input output equation I think a lot of
people feel and if you're putting lots
in the goal the hope is that something's
going to come out on the other side of
it but you have this sort of latent
leverage after a while like you build up
you know you pull back an elastic band
and you pull it back and pull it back
and pull it back and pull it back
>> and
>> we hope that life is going to be a bit
more linear but a lot of the time you're
kind of just accumulating reps or doing
something maybe not even doing what and
putting in more work than you will do in
future and not seeing the rewards. I
think that's why you know the top
comment Cole's got 22 million plays on
YouTube. The top comment says this song
has the feeling when you're working on
yourself and making progress but you
still feel lonely and like a failure.
Yeah, that honestly that's a great way
to put like that that's how it felt I
guess is like it just felt like we were
putting the hours in almost you know
it's like we're we're doing it but I
don't know it's like we don't nothing we
don't feel any different but now I I
almost see now it's like without like if
Cole happened let's say let's say I you
know I was writing about other stuff and
Cole happened 5 years earlier no way
there's no way that I that I think we I
would be touring doing the same thing
that we're doing right now because
without
>> I think without going through that job
and understanding
even personal relationships outside of
college, like just kind of real world
items. Like I I don't know. I feel like
I can't even imagine being thrown into
the music industry or trying to write
songs or or any of that without I feel
like having a real frame of reference to
come back to. Does that make sense? Like
I dude, even
>> music as an artist, I think people don't
understand it is such a business. Like I
I think people imagine artists and
myself just being like, "Look, I strum
the guitar. I show up to shows, we
collect our money, and that's our lot."
Like that's I feel there's at times
where I feel a lot more like a business
manager than than an artist for sure.
>> There's a book called The E-Myth
Revisited by uh I think it's Michael
Gerber. It's like just a business book,
but it's it's quite well done. and he
tells this uh fictional story in there
of a woman who runs a bakery and this
woman loves making cakes. She loves to
do and she's made cakes for the family
and she makes cakes for her friends and
it's her passion and she's great at it
and everyone's best cakes. I'm going to
open a bakery. Wouldn't that be cool?
Small local bakery. So, she opens a
bakery and then it gets popular cuz she
makes great cakes. So, she needs to hire
some staff and some staff come in and
the staff start to make some of the
cakes and you she's involved in the
ingredients and the recipes and the
releases, but then there's accounts to
do and she grows a little bit more and
then she gets a factory and she's
spending a little bit less time making
cakes and before she knows it, she
hasn't made a [ __ ] cake in years. And
this, no matter what industry you're in,
>> you have to learn to be able to say no
to things or to focus on stuff that
previously you would have begged to have
had the opportunity to say yes to. I
want to be in the room with the ANR
person or you're a a writer and you have
all of the opportunities to go and do
speaking gigs. It's like, why were you
great as a writer? What made you great
as a a blogger on Substack or as an
author that writes books or whatever it
is? It was because of the time that you
spent like stewing in your ideas, right?
Like marinating in this stuff. It was
the walk, the three-hour walks that you
took with the dog. And all of that time
gets squeezed because we can't see
basically like obvious productivity is
really easy to track. How many hours did
you spend on Slack today? Or how many
emails did you send? I've got a full
backto-back day of schedule calls. This
must make me really important. And you
go, well, how useful is it for you to go
fishing
>> for an afternoon with nothing else
happening? go, well, I worked really
hard today. I went fishing. You the the
purit and work ethic, the guilt that
comes up because it's like, I should be
working harder, but that's not what
necessarily got you here.
>> No. And it it's so st cuz Yeah, cuz like
expectations change from everyone
involved too, right? Like it's the fans
have different expectations of the
listeners. I have a different
expectation as myself as as I put up
more and more albums. Back when I was
writing Cole, I was not writing it for
anything. I was just like, "This is my
outlet. This this is my passion. I love
playing guitar. I'm just going to pick
it up and write." I had no reason to do
that. But I wanted to because that was
just what I was so passionate about.
Kind of like the baker like she wants to
just bake some [ __ ] cakes.
>> And now it's like, dude, like 3 years,
three and a half years later, or I guess
from Cole writing, it's like 5 years.
But looking back, like if I wrote that
exact same song today and I like if I
hear the version of Cole right now,
>> I would be like, "What is this demo?" I
would never put that out, you know? And
it's like I I try to remind myself like
when I'm in the studio and because like
that was just that that song was just
made on my laptop on the edge of my bed.
Like that's where Cole was recorded,
engineered. The only thing I didn't do
on that song was master it, which
actually I put it out, we had to retake
it down to remaster it because it was so
the levels were all over.
>> Yeah. It was just off. It like didn't
blend in with other music. Um, so yeah,
it's it's so it's so strange like you
have to yeah, you've got to find that
passion which I still have it and like I
think you know obviously I'm gonna I'm
going to talk about the struggles of
music cuz there are some but the last
thing I'm going to be is ungrateful for
what it is. Like I I'm living my dream
like whenever I have struggles in this
industry because there are um
>> kind of like you said it's like four
years ago I would have killed to be
stressing out about putting my album
out, you know? Oh, I have to go sign
vinyls in Nashville. I would have died
for that, dude. You know, so I I I don't
know. I I just I have to remind myself
that. My wife has reminds me that all
the time. She's just like my my number
one supporter and like the greatest
teammate in the world. So, um yeah, it
it's such just it's the goalpost just
changed. And
>> it you know about habituation and
hideonic treadmill, right? Like you get
you can't wait to get a new car, you
spend all of your time thinking about
this new car. You get the new car and
then after six months you're sort of
bored of it. You're looking after the
next one. What nobody really talks about
is the same thing but with goals and
problems,
>> right? That you wanted to have to do
soundcheck. I just wish that I had a
team of people who would maybe tune my
[ __ ] guitar. Yeah.
>> Before I go out there and then you've
got to negotiate because one of the
[ __ ] guitar techs has had to leave.
So, we need to get a new guitar tech.
Oh, hang on. So, you're telling me that
the person I pleaded, like begged,
prayed to have, I now need to get a
replacement for. And that feels like a
burden to me. Yeah.
>> And we get accustomed to a different
quality of life, a different, you know,
level of of ease or something. And yeah,
I've always thought it would be really
cool if you could take photos of your
own mind and go back and visit them like
you can with a with a photograph. What
would it be like to go back to the
texture of your mind from four years
ago?
>> Even just plug it in.
>> What problems? Yeah. What problems were
you thinking about? What what what
concerned you as you fell asleep? Money
worries. Stay. Am I going to make I'm
[ __ ] circuit of the America. I'm
boiling hot on the [ __ ] golf cart,
you know, taking Can we do verse cord? A
little a little Cole.
>> Yeah, let's do it.
>> Beautiful.
>> This was like the Cuz you know what's
funny? I I posted a video of Cole way
early on and no one cared.
>> Uh it didn't do anything, but I was I
was fine with that. I was like I already
stuck. I was I'm just going to keep
posting. I didn't post Cole and again
until after to be free happened. the
first song I ever put out because I was
like I have a little traction now. I
should try it. I was like I really
really believe in this song like the
writing on it is really good and then it
was like yeah over like that video
changed.
>> Why did you do that in Cole? Why did you
do that pre chorus? Cuz you don't drop
like the line until the second time it
comes around. Why did you make that
creative decision?
>> Two things at the time on TikTok.
I hated what music promotion was. Uh, I
hated that it was like, "Okay, we're
going to hear this 15-second clip of bad
lyrics weren't even on the screen really
at this time." Like, people weren't
like, I don't know, it was just like all
about a 15-second clip that people can
just repost and redo videos to dance or
whatever it was. And what they would do
is they would get all these pre-saves
lined up. Pre-save, pres, and they would
just extend this thing for just months.
And what I did with Cole
>> was like, I think the strength of this
song is in the writing. It's not
necessar I think the hook is like this
huge payoff at the very end that the
people who listen to it are going to get
at the at the the mo at the time I
wasn't thinking like oh I should
probably shave that off because a 20
second video is going to have a lot more
views than a 45se secondond video like
you're saying but I also just like the
the writing of it I don't know like the
I've seen heaven without dying with the
devil without trying like I was super
proud of that and I was like I think
that's a good hook to bring you who
knows if there if I started with the
chorus it might have never happened
like, you know, if if it was a a dark
sky instead of a sunny day when I was
recording, it might have never happened.
Like, I think about that stuff all the
time. It it's I I took that like I did
like five different videos that day and
I just chose that one. I was like,
there's a chance that that video didn't
go. I never posted Cole again and I'm
we're not having this conversation. You
know what I mean? So, it's uh yeah, I
don't know. I also like I'm I'm I'm I'm
very
I'm I'm a big believer in that things
happen for a reason. Um, so that also
gives me peace of mind. I don't know.
>> Unreal.
>> But yeah. So,
well, I've seen [singing] heaven without
dying. Made the devil without [music]
trying. And they both seem to want to
talk [singing] to me.
But I'm all out of luck now. And my
dreams [singing] aren't [music] worth a
book. Yeah, it's tough trying to land on
my feet. When this game of life plays
heavy on my heart and love is tough,
[singing] loneliness [music] twice is
harder.
I'll carry that bad [singing] everywhere
I go. They say pressure [music] makes
diamonds. How the hell am I still cold?
>> [music]
>> Yeah, that was the clip.
>> So good.
>> So, I mean, do you think deliberately
looking unpolished is now its own kind
of marketing? Cuz as soon as you find as
soon as somebody does it on the deck
>> and it's successful, like everything
becomes commercialized. Like
authenticity is really difficult to
survive once a team recognizes it's got
commercial value and then that kind of
kills what authenticity is because
people are now performing authenticity.
>> Yeah. I mean I So that was something I I
mean it's honestly it's still something
I obsess over of like and I don't obsess
over it in a way of like how do we make
this look and feel, you know, cuz people
are smarter than they ever are. Like
dude, you're not going to fake it and
people do and maybe I'm wrong, you know?
Maybe people do believe a lot of stuff
is authentic when it's just absolutely
not. But um I don't know. I I just feel
like
I try to stay true to what my mind was
thinking when I first got into this
thing of like there's lines I won't
cross. Uh like but like
I would never sacrifice
um
for a while I wouldn't even run ads. I
wouldn't do anything. I would not and I
and I drove my team crazy. And I and I
guarantee I probably took a hit on a lot
of things for that. And maybe I was
overthinking it, but I was just like,
look, I just I don't want to just all of
a sudden, like you said, it's like, we
know this thing works. I don't want to
all of a sudden just dive in. Everyone's
telling me, "Well, wait."
>> That's the formula.
>> Yeah. Here's the formula. Don't post
Don't put it out right now. Wait 3
months. Get your pre-saves up. Post it
30 more times. I posted Cole in total.
Even like today, I think it's been like
seven to 10 times ever.
>> You're kidding.
>> Ever. Now, when it when it came out, I
think I posted it four times and what
people would tell you now is like, "No,
you gotta post you gota post this song
on 50, you know?" And it's like,
>> I don't know. It's just such this weird
thing in the in in music right now where
there's so many people doing it. So,
like,
>> you've got to get out there somehow and
you've got to you've got to separate
yourself somehow. Like, it it's even 10x
of whenever I like Cole came out of like
the amount of people kind of playing
this type of music. Um, and I I don't
know. I I really don't have the answer
to like how to separate because
everyone's doing the authentic thing now
and everything everyone's doing the
polished thing like there's just so many
things and I think in your world and in
my world um the ends of the barbell are
where people are succeeding so very very
produced right like super super polished
>> or very raw and stripped back and I
think the middle is where people seem to
go to die at the moment um but looking
at talking about the growth of m the
music industry billboard top 10 from
2020 to 2023. Rap music 34%.
Country music 7%.
25 to 26. Country music 27% rap music
17%. So rap music's gone in half and
country music's 4xed.
>> That's incredible. That's pretty crazy.
Yeah. I mean,
>> I think it's the natural way of things.
Like I think uh at some point country
will be back down and rap will be back
up. Like and that's that's fine.
>> They're the two ends of the
>> You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah.
[laughter] But also like it's country is
not what country was in 2020. Like I I
mean I hear songs right now that are
charting or whatever that I'm like
that's a great song. I love it. I
wouldn't call it country but sure. You
know uh you know it it's got acoustic
guitar in it. Let's do it. That's
country. But yeah it's cool. I think I
think at some point it'll
go back there'll be like a whole new
wave of hip-hop or something that comes
in
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and modern wisdom a checkout. What's
interesting is how verality can reward
different behaviors because as soon as
you find a way to make something become
effective, everybody's going to start to
play that. I guess
>> how do you tell the difference between a
song that's good and a song that's just
algorithm friendly?
I mean,
I feel like I have a I feel like I have
a bad view on this because I'm in it.
So, like I feel like I can pretty easily
see when something has something pushing
it,
>> you know? Like I I'm like I I kind of
know what the markers are of like when I
hear a song that's trending and like
I'll go look at the audio or whatever
and I'm like, "Okay, they got a team."
like they're they're running this thing
like they're
>> what what are some of the indications
>> like okay you'll see you'll see a song
come out and there's a thousand truck
edits to it or something and I'm like
>> what's a truck edit
>> like okay for uh like you'll see you'll
see a new song come out and it'll be
like a video of an account that all they
do is just truck videos with like cool
moody lighting lyrics on the top
>> and they put a song to it. I didn't
realize this was an ecosystem on
>> Oh, it's not just the truck ecos truck
Instagram ecosystem.
>> That's a big thing like and again it's a
smart thing because a lot of people
follow those accounts for music. So like
what teams will do is you know they'll
>> they'll pump someone's song on stuff
like that. Now I'll say now more than
ever that doesn't mean that you're going
to have a hit song. it it might put more
ears on it, but like if the song is not
that great and if it kind of sounds like
something else, like it just won't it
still won't really catch. But,
>> you know, this is the kind of uh
escalation of firepower when it comes to
marketing that how much harder is it to
break through if every moderately good
song has now got an army of clippers and
>> truck edits and Oh, yeah.
>> boat edits behind it. So yeah, that's I
mean that's and that's what I mean is
it's almost like in my in my case,
right? Like I'm I'm very blessed to be
in the position that I am is like
selling tickets. That's what we've
always based this thing off of. Like
we've never really outside of Cole,
we've never really had like viral
moments. Like that was it. Like we
haven't really had one since before. And
but what matters to me is that our shows
keep growing. Like that's all I've
always cared about is like getting
people to buy tickets in seats and um I
mean even that's getting harder with
just how many everyone in their mom is
touring right now. But yes,
>> um it's uh
>> blue dot fever is happening.
>> Yeah. And that's just like that's a
whole another crazy thing. That's uh
>> that's just like that is a mixture of
just everything going against people
buying tickets. So like but then you
know the part of the re for the people
that don't know blue dot fever is a wave
of artists many of whom are pretty big
doing some pretty large venues some
stadiums some arenas not selling out or
often not selling enough to even maybe
continue with the
>> show or perhaps killing the tour
entirely.
>> Yeah.
>> And
part of it is is this person as relevant
as they thought? Have they overcooked
it? Another huge part of it is what are
the [ __ ] ticket prices? Like what's
happening with Ticket Master and Live
Nation and how much are people getting
squeezed and dynamic pricing? [gasps]
>> It's all cohesing at the same time. But
one of the most common things I'm
hearing on the show is how much real
life events are going to come back. Like
everyone's bullish as [ __ ] on live
music. Everyone's so bullish on comedy,
on real world events, on, you know, slow
phone techfree Sabbaths, trying to touch
grass and, you know, [ __ ] see the sky
again.
>> And at the same time, you have this
other force, which is cost of living.
People don't have as much money as they
want anymore. And Live Nation and Ticket
Master and every venue on the planet
knows, okay, well, I've got to squeeze,
but I can't squeeze too much.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's like, yeah, you
want to go see a massive stadium act,
right? It's like, cool for me and my
wife to go. That's going to be a four
figure day. Like, and that's if I'm in
the nosebleleeds. That's if I'm in the
worst seat in the stadium. I got to go
get a hotel. I got to park for $50. I
got if I want to buy a shirt,
>> babysitter. I mean, you're talking about
thousands of dollars to go see a show in
a really bad seat
>> from row F.
>> And then they go, "Well, hold on. This
tick this Tik Tok artist that remember
we have on our on our playlist, he's
playing down the road for a $15 ticket
and there's 200 people going." And it's
like let's just do that. But there's a
thousand people now. So to have
it in I feel like it like agents jobs
are getting harder every day too cuz it
almost like you you build touring off of
like sellouts and coming back and and
revamping like your show that you did
after an album. You come back to the
city you crushed and it's like all right
well now you can do 20% more tickets
because your album's doing well and
people are enjoying it so let's do it.
But now it's almost at the point where
it's like,
oh, you know, Dylan's coming to Chicago.
We saw him last year. Great show. Loved
it. But we saw him.
>> And what about this new artist that's
coming? We should go see him because we
can only choose one show this month or
this year cuz everything's so expensive.
So,
>> it's just Yeah, dude. It's such a
>> It's such an interesting landscape.
Again, we're just we're just very
blessed we get to keep doing it. So,
that's what we try to do.
>> Overnight success used to be a bit of an
insult and now it kind of feels like
what everyone's chasing.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
>> Strange.
>> Very strange. But I I also think a lot
of people aren't ready for it maybe.
Like I mean I wasn't ready for it, but
luckily like it didn't happen in such a
way
when I was too young or like it kind of
happened like in the perfect moment.
Like my wife and I just got married 6
months earlier like felt settled down,
moved into a house together. Um, and
then it happened, you know, and I uh,
yeah, it, you know, I I think the
hardest part is maintaining it. I feel
like that's that's what does not always
happen is someone will have a really big
moment and you'll know the song,
everyone in the everyone in the world
knows the song and then in a year it's
like they can't sell shows cuz maybe
they just had that one song that was
getting pushed out.
>> I don't know. It's it's a weird world. I
I feel lost in it all the time. And
that's why I dude I like I've deleted so
much social media. Any like like country
account out there I pretty much just
unfollowed. I I just I just
>> it's just overwhelming. It's just too
>> What's the What's the sensation that you
feel when you get exposed to that when
you were getting exposed to that stuff?
>> Uh I mean my sensation it's not like I'm
like getting anxious or stressed about
it. It's more of just like dude I got to
have a life outside of like everything.
Like Instagram used to be like, "Oh,
what are my friends post?" And and now
it's just like ad ad promotion
promotion. Oh, there's my buddy. You
know, let me scroll through that. And
it's just it just gets or like when
people are like reviewing other country
artists and it's like these people that
hide behind us. It's just weird. And I'm
like
>> like it obviously it's it's good for the
music industry. It gives a lot of eyes,
but as someone that's in the industry,
it's like I'm trying to separate a
little bit my life and my work, which I
feel like I've done a really great job
on. Like again, I'm not I'm not like
very social media forward. Like there I
mean I've we have an album coming out,
so I've kind of been trying to I'm like
trying to post more, but like I'm like I
don't know. I don't I don't know. I
don't you know, it gets lost out there a
lot of times anyways. And it's just
Yeah, it's just a lot. It's another
element of what we were talking about
before that as you become successful,
your ability to do the things that made
you successful become harder to access.
>> Um, in order for art to imitate life,
you have to live a life.
>> This is why comedians as they get bigger
and bigger, all of their acts are about
airports and dinners and shows and
hotels because that's all that they know
because they're now a big touring act.
Every single weekend they're away
playing two or three shows. or maybe
they're matinea and all of their friends
are in the industry as well and before
you know it you go ah
>> what is the wellspring that I'm drawing
from and this is the same for anybody
you're a marketer right you're you're a
branding person you're trying to come up
with really interesting insight for a
new campaign for a client that you work
for your own company that you run or
whatever
>> where are you drawing that from if all
that you're consuming is just derivative
work of other people talking about the
same thing while I'm big in the branding
industry it's very important that I
spend time at the conference okay so you
as a marketing guy spend all of your
time talking to marketing guys about
marketing. Where is the new
>> inspiration? It's like yeah who you used
to be the person that you would market
to. Like I I used to be the guy that I
would want to be like I want I would
want Dylan to be a fan of Dylan, right?
Like I'm trying to I'm like I think this
guy would love and
>> again like even like like you said
earlier, how can you tell what's a good
song and what's something that's been
pushed? I'm like, I think I can tell,
but
>> you might have been finessed as well.
>> Yeah, I maybe I have because, you know,
and then I start to believe certain
things, right, where again, like you
just kind of keep pushing the line back
of like,
oh, I hate I I don't like how they
promoted that or whatever, and then your
next record comes out and you're like,
well, do you know, do we need to play
that?
>> Yeah. I don't know. It's it's uh
>> it's that's such a good way to put it of
just
Yeah, the the the farther I guess you
could say quote unquote the more
successful successful you get and the
more away from where you started.
>> Yeah, you got to find time to get back.
I think Miley Cyrus might have said that
one time in an interview was just like
she requires certain time off the road
so she can just just live like just off.
She's like I have to live a little bit.
So yeah. Where does your process usually
start? Is it like a line, a melody, an
emotion? It'll be it'll be stuff like
okay like I don't know I'll be on the
couch Julia will be watching TV or
something like that. We'll be watching
something and I sing gibberish. Like
I'll try to find a melody that I think
is like
[singing]
[music]
but I'm not saying anything and
eventually maybe like a word will come
to me that it feels very
thoughtprovoking or something you know
like okay for like headed back to Austin
the one I played earlier. Um, I think it
was kind of that line like I knew where
I wanted to go, but I didn't have
anything. And that just started with
again me on the couch probably for like
30 minutes. Not because I'm trying to
write a song, but it's cuz I'm just
noodling. Like I don't know. I just like
doing it. So I start [music]
or
and I'll look at Joy like that sounds
cool. She like yeah I like that. and
you know, [music]
and then you just kind of start
gibberish forming consonants and vowels
until they become a word.
>> Hang on. So the the writer's room is you
>> whatever bullshit's on TV.
>> Yeah.
>> The white presumably now the kid Yeah.
>> who's just like flailing in the
background. Yeah. Right. So the
difference between this this and a
Nashville engine a little bit different.
>> Yeah. Very. But that's why like and
again I I have nothing against those
guys. They're very talented in their own
right. It's incredible what they can do,
but it just doesn't I can't do it.
That's like I said,
>> have you tried Have you tried to be in
the like the engine like that?
>> No. I I've the closest I've come to that
is like I write with my brother uh or
like multi-instrumentalist Colton. Um
and even then it's just different. It's
a whole different way of writing. Um I
can't say if I like it more or less.
Like I I I still think
me on my couch in my living room usually
at night is like that's where I get the
stuff I like. Like but then like my
brother has a song uh that he wrote
called Rambling and it's on the album.
It's actually the title of the album
Rambling. Excuse me. Um and it's like
one of the best songs on the album. Like
it's written so cool. And all I did was
write like the chorus and a little like
melody for the chorus. Can I hear it?
>> Yeah. Uh he's way better at playing it
on guitar so I'm probably going to
butcher it.
Also, I haven't played in so long.
[music]
Jeez. [music] Listen to the wind calls
me [singing] by name.
Same old dirt
from [music] where I was [singing]
raised.
Ain't no man ought to cause all this
pain. Listen
to the wind. [singing]
[music]
Listen to the wind. No, listen to the
wind. It calls me [singing] by name.
Like, I don't know. It It's It's a
beautiful song.
>> I butchered it. Sorry, Blake. He's
probably listening. He's like, "You
messing up my song bad." Um, but yeah.
No, he he does this like fingerpicking
style that like I just can't even do.
And u he's he's a way better guitar
player than I am. But um dude, it's just
so cool. Like that's the stuff that I
love. Like I I'm not
I I was early on, but especially like
now like I'm very open to collaboration
and and I'm not as like sacred about
every word's got to be mine. Like I you
know I I'm very
writing is my passion almost more than
singing. So like I you know I'm very
particular of like what I want the songs
to say and sound like and I don't know I
just like I like writing.
>> Would you ever do it for someone else?
>> I think so. But it's maybe I don't think
I could write I don't think I could
write a song for someone else that I
think that I could sing
>> because I just want to sing it.
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and modernwisdom at checkout. Well, I
had uh Bellian on the show last year and
he's just so [ __ ] I mean, there was a
guitar in the back side of the room and
I'm thinking, okay, John [ __ ]
Bellion. Okay. Right.
gestured to a guitar like, "Hey, you
know, explain how he did." He looked at
it. He goes, "I don't know how to play
that thing." Well, he's like, "I [ __ ]
it's not my it's not my bag." Like, I'm
just here to do the thing. But he was
telling me about how he'd taken all of
his time off, 5 years, maybe this big
break away from producing any publishing
any music himself
>> and he just wasn't first. He'd had this
>> altercation, pretty public altercation,
I think, with his label.
>> Didn't want to I'm not going to play the
game. I'm just going to make music for
other people and this would be great.
And he's just creating banger after
banger. And I said, "Well, how did you
know that you wanted to get back into
making music again?" He said, "Well,
when I had my stack of tracks to show
whichever artist was coming in, like
little demos and stuff that I'd cut
together for them to have a little
listen to, I'd find myself, you know,
going down, going down, and then I' i'd
double tap over the top of a couple of
them, and he's like, "That one's for
me." and he could hear in the back of
his mind this bit of almost kind of a
selfishness or maybe a bit more swagger
or kind of ownership coming back in
because he wanted to do that. But yeah,
I I think about um a lot of my friends
that are writers, you know, they do
versions of ghost writing for people and
>> they'll shape ideas and then sometimes
they'll come up with the synthesis of an
idea and
>> every so often they put out one, they
feel a little bit agrieved that they
didn't get to put it under their own
name. And the same goes for comedy
writers. You know, all of the roasts
that you see, every big roast that you
see online, a lot of comedians now are
opening up in the caption of their
Instagram post, if they put one of these
huge big like, you know, clips up that
completely rips. They put the credits in
there
>> of all of the writers that have
contributed. It's not them. I'm right
here, right, Jared? Like this is
>> because I I always thought it was like
>> I always thought it it was like rap and
comedy like like country was like the
country and pop were like they had
writers.
>> Yeah. I I thought like
>> I thought like rap comedy was more like
you are what you write.
>> No. I mean what percentage of comedians
now touring comedians do you think are
using Just off the top of your head?
What percentage of touring comedians do
you think are doing their entire sets?
Less than 10%.
>> No way.
>> That is crazy. at the roast. I would
probably guess
probably less.
>> It's it's [ __ ] armies of people to
put these together. I mean I mean you'll
even hear them call it out now. Shane at
uh the ESPs
>> just gave a line and he said I that
wasn't mine. I didn't write that one.
Like [laughter] he's calling out the
meta of the whole engine process. And um
yeah, I saw
I saw another roast that came out a
couple of days ago and the [ __ ]
Instagram captions 10 lines long.
>> It's crazy.
>> Like writers and then other
contributors, you know, it's got the dog
in there. Like everybody's Although you
could say you could say the writer room.
It's good it's not Nashville credits or
else your kid would be like tapping you
up saying, "Hey, I was in the room when
you
>> Yeah. Where's my 33?"
>> Yeah. Yeah, dude. It's Wow. Yeah. I
don't know. I I I think what you said
earlier, I take ownership.
>> Yeah.
>> In
I try I don't think I'm a very
egotistical person, but the one thing I
think I do like take pride in the most
is probably the words. And it's just I
don't know. It also just I if somebody
I'm trying to think like if someone came
up to me with just an absolute amazing
song and was like, "Do you want to sing
this?"
I've never had that. I've never had that
except for Blake, my brother with
Rambling. And I was like, that's a
no-brainer. Let's put that on the album.
Like
>> maybe it feels a little different that
it's come from so close to home.
>> Yeah. And I guess may or even if it's a
person that's just like a really great
songwriting like I have this song, I
want you to sing it. I'm like, cool. I
can't, you know, let's do it. I'll do
it. But
>> what about in reverse? What about you
writing for someone else?
[sighs and gasps]
>> Again, I I think it's the ownership
thing. Like I think if I write a song
that I think is just so good. I almost
get to the point where like if I have a
chorus and like a verse and all I need
is like a little bridge and I'm almost
like I I'm so I'm sorry. Like I really
don't want help with this. Like I
>> because you want to own it.
>> I want this to be like yeah I I want to
complete my thought. So that's that's a
really interesting point and I found
this with with writing that
>> there is always at least now in the
world of writing and maybe increasingly
it's going to start creeping in in the
world of music the contribution of AI.
>> So
>> I've got this idea that I'm I'm playing
with at the moment. I have a friend and
he bumped into an ex of his a little
while ago and he made the decision that
he didn't want to be in a relationship
anymore a good while back and he was
certain he really done the work spent a
lot of time thinking about whether or
not he wanted to to leave decided to
leave saw her gets completely knocked
sideways just bumps into her randomly
and his head's in a hole spin
>> and he was saying I can't work out how I
was so certain at the time and so
regretful now
>> y And there's an idea from psychology
that's called the fading a effect bias.
And what it says is that bad memories
fade with time, but good ones don't tend
to. And that's great because it means we
have a psychological immune system. It
protects us
>> from being still at the mercy of some
horrible thing that happened in our
past. Your dog dies when you're 10, but
when you're 15, it doesn't sting quite
so much. Hooray for that, right? You
have a psychological immune system. You
distance yourself. You distract
yourself. You have uh reframes. Uh,
tragedy plus time equals comedy. Yeah.
>> Is about as close to an algorithm that
psychologyy's got.
>> Yeah.
>> So, bad things fade with time. Good
things tend not to so much. And in fact,
sometimes bad things can kind of become
funny, right? You can have a tragic
situation that becomes funny in future.
>> But one of the weird side effects of
this as you get a little bit older is
that you assume wisdom compounds with
age. As I get older, I know more.
>> Yeah. But in matters of emotion, as you
get older, you're just further from the
evidence.
>> Yeah.
>> So what he had encountered was a
situation where a future version of him
had less information than a previous
version of him.
>> The person that was closer to the
emotion understood what it felt like to
not fully be in this relationship, to be
uncertain, to be sat on the couch and
not have anything to talk about, to
always be going to bed worried about
whether or not he was making the right
decision. and the version of him now
isn't more experienced. They're further
from the evidence.
>> And I was like, "Fuck, I love like I I
love the fading affect bias. I've got
this story from a friend." Sent him this
like series of texts and I was like,
"Trust that the previous version of you
was stewarding the future version of you
appropriately. Like, do you trust that
you had your best interest in mind?"
>> That's incred
>> at the time.
>> Yeah.
>> And I've been [ __ ] fighting with this
idea for ages. And yesterday is my
writing day. Sunday's writing day. So
I'm sitting down and I've got
[ __ ] a thousand. It only needs to be
500 words. It needs to be short little
essay. Snappy that basically what I've
just said a little bit more formed
>> and I've got a,000 2,000 words of just
like [ __ ] And I'm like I can throw
this into chat GPT
>> put it on deep research and it'll take
my words and it'll re it'll put them
together, put them into a flow. Maybe
it'll tell me a story about Charles
Darwin and it'll be done.
>> Yeah. And I knew that if I did that, I
would get the essay out today. It didn't
shock horror for the people that
subscribed to the newsletter. It didn't
go out today. Uh it was something else.
I put something else up that was easier
for me to write.
>> The reason that I didn't do it was that
that idea will be concretized for the
rest of time. That will be the reference
that I use for whatever the name is I
come up with it or the story, the way
that it's formed, the examples I use,
and they stick in my mind.
>> And I'll always know that it wasn't me
that did it. I'll always know that it
wasn't me that put the [ __ ] finishing
garnish on the dish. I did all of the
hard work and there was this bit at the
end and I wonder whether that might be
ego. I think it probably could be ego
that I'm not
>> but I also but I also think it's like
this it's this you see where the world
is going a little bit with with it. I
mean you like you can't even open your
phone without it just begging to be like
let me do it for you. You can't even
like someone will email you and I
haven't even read
>> you want me to respond to it on your
behalf.
>> Yeah. I had to turn it off on my phone.
It was like summarizing my messages and
I'm like what? I'm just going to read
it. Like, hey, I got an email reply. How
about this reply? And it's this whole
reply. And I think I think we're in a a
state. At least I am. I am. It's like
this yearning to be like, it's so great
to work your mind. You have to try to
work your mind cuz dude, I feel like
there's days that go by when I'm on
tour. I'm on autopilot. I'm not I'm I'm
not doing anything beneficial. I get
tired. I'm just on my phone. I'm doom
scrolling and like I'm like I'm getting
dumber by the day. Like I just like I'm
not
>> getting cognitively fat.
>> Yeah. And I'm I'm not Yeah. I'm not uh
exercising my mind. Like I'm not and I'm
not trying to make it this big thing
where I'm like, you know, got to
exercise my whatever. But yeah, I think
I just yearn for
having this having that stamp and like
it's it's such an accomplishment. Like
growing up as a kid, like that's why so
many people are against participation
trophies, right? Like I'm in there
myself. It's like against it of just
there's not a better feeling than when
you do get it.
>> Earn the win.
>> Earn earn the win. Instead of being like
we're all winners, it's like no, you
wrote a bad song, it's bad.
>> Y
>> but I promise in two years when you
write that song and you know you did it
and you crushed it and you put it online
and people resonate with it and you
think that they're just resonated with
it because it's a different note.
because you failed and failed and
failed. You made the right song and that
is like that's the whole I don't know I
feel like that's almost just the point
of everything. Like it's it's it's the
payoff. Like if you just write AI the
rest of your life like there's I don't
know there's no there's no like highs
and lows in that. You're just very
>> Yeah. I don't know. Does that make
sense? Like
>> it's there's a line from Mark Manson
that I've been [ __ ] obsessed with
this year and it speaks to this AI
thing.
do hard [ __ ] not because it's fun, but
because the win actually means
something. You bled for it. You broke
for it. You earned it. Easy wins are
forgettable. Hard ones change you.
That's the point.
>> Yeah.
>> Like that's that's everything. And I the
more that I think about that line, easy
wins are forgettable, hard ones change
you. That's the point.
>> Yeah.
>> I'm like, oh, that's the choice that
everybody's going to make when it comes
to AI, and it's going to be in small
ways as well. I've got to write a
letter, a thank you letter to somebody
saying, "Uh, I really appreciate you,
um, taking care of the kids this weekend
or the the dog walker on her birthday or
whatever." Like,
>> do people care about receiving a card or
do they care about the fact that you
went to the effort of having to write it
by hand? One of the strange things about
I don't know whether you guys have got
Moon Pig or Magpie, they're like um card
sending services, but you you sort of
type in what you want and it's very nice
to receive a card. Like it's kind of
rare to receive a card.
>> Very
>> It's at least twice as nice when it's
been written by hand.
>> Oh,
>> as opposed to something that's got
printed off on the internet, somebody
typed it in and it got shipped to your
door. It's like, no, go to the [ __ ]
post office. Because yeah, it's it's
it's not like it's not like I receive a
like, yeah, a letter in the mail and I'm
like this this 299 piece of paper is
what I've been looking for. No, it's
like okay, they put an like they're just
showing you love from afar because they
can't. They're showing you ever from
afar. So yeah, it's like
>> and again I'm not saying that like AI
doesn't have its place in certain parts
of the world. Like obviously
I mean it's just technological advance.
Like for example, I don't I don't go
handwash my clothes and hang them up on
the clothes line outside. You know what
I'm saying? I'm like, yeah, I'm like, I
got to live hard, you know, cuz like
obviously we advance, but
>> there comes a line where it's like, all
right, yeah, I can I can especially I I
think where I the line crosses for me is
when it's like artistic or sentimental,
right? Or I'm sure there's other stuff,
but
>> artistic, it's like the whole point of
art is that it's not perfect and it
feels like something only humans can do,
right? So it it feels very natural. And
then with the sentimental stuff, that's
the whole point of, like you said,
writing a letter. I'm not writing you a
letter just so you can have the piece of
paper. I'm writing you a letter and
putting something in here that I think
is going to have an emotional effect on
you, just like I'm having an emotional
effect writing it. And I'm doing it and
I'm not like saying that writing a
letter is hard, but I don't know. I
think we're saying the same thing.
>> It's harder than putting the prompt into
chat GPT and getting it to do it.
>> It's better than just checking the box.
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The decision that everybody's going to
make is, okay, do I want to do the
harder thing? And it's weird because do
hard things is kind of this tagline that
everybody likes to lean into. The 4:30
a.m. cold plunge and the runs and the
weightlifting and the you sticking to
your diet.
>> But the decision of do I want to do the
harder thing or the easier thing is
going to encroach into every area of
life. It's going to encroach into
whether or not you want to order. If you
one click order flowers that goes to
your MS's door because she's having a
hard day or if you drive to the [ __ ]
florist and pick them up and hand
deliver them to her. There is just a
there is a a a explicit real world
difference, a tangible difference
between those two things.
>> But as things
convenience begins to encroach on the
rest of life, everybody's going to have
to make that decision for more and more
and more stuff.
>> Oh yeah. Like, yeah, I hear what you're
saying. It's It's not I saw this one
picture. It was like It started as
sitdown restaurant, it turned into
drive-thru, and now it's Uber Eats,
>> you know? It was movies, and then it's
YouTube, and now it's YouTube shorts.
Like, it just it just keeps going. Yeah.
And it just keeps expanding.
>> It's derivative. It becomes distilled
down.
>> Yeah. And it's like even I mean like I I
find myself I used to never do this but
I found myself literally this week and I
of I was watching an Instagram reel and
I was I was watching it and I was like
let me hold down let me go times two
speed here you know and I'm like what am
I doing like I just
>> I need I need to speed [ __ ] myself with
this algorithm
>> and it's like and it's like you're
saying it's not just that that might not
be the bad thing. I don't know, maybe
you're you're you're on you're on a
bathroom break and you're like, I don't
know, get get to the point, you know, I
you know, I get that, but it starts
creeping into everything cuz yeah, 20
years down the road, you know, with with
a with a musician and they're like, "Oh,
I got to pay the bills. We need a new
song. I just don't have it in me. What?
Write a song. Yeah, it's pretty good.
It's going to sell." Like, what's what's
stopping people from doing that if it's
just every every year it's just one
extra thing, you know? Well, you know,
think about how songs are recorded now.
You go into a studio, you can play a
song like pluck by pluck and just chop
that together and then you got the
perfect take, the perfect take. Whereas
it would have been what, 50 years ago, a
single [ __ ] room.
>> Okay. Yeah. Cuz they were also on tape.
So they I mean they they they
legitimately had to make a decision
right there in the moment and say, "Hey,
either we'll run out of tape or, hey,
it's literally not worth our time to
go." They had like Xacto knives. They
would have to cut these things together,
splice it physically, tape it up, run it
through the machine, like it it's And
now it's just, "Yeah, just hit it again.
You're fine." So that's why you hear on
so many of these old records like an
Elton John record or something like
that. you'll hear like in the background
some like a hat fell on the keys but it
was a great take and they're like we
can't
>> keep the hat in
>> keep it like you'll hear like the little
key hit like you know and they just keep
it in there and it kind of gives records
life a little bit like there's there's
certain things like I think in in the
records that I make I think
>> like my I think the imperfections almost
make it perfect sometimes and it it's
just
>> you know as soon as you say
imperfections give something a degree of
life the imperfections then begin to be
engineered.
>> Oh,
>> everything becomes marketable, right?
The authenticity, the strip backness.
Well, oh, this great story about Elton
John, we must have a hat. Has anyone got
a hat in the room? We can make the hat
fall at the right time.
>> It's very So, okay. And look, I
>> Whoever's listening to this, I don't
know if any producers listen to this.
I'm probably not talking about you. I've
had a lot of great experiences in the
whole national thing,
>> but there are a lot of that a a lot in
that setting that it's very
performative. Like you said, it's very
uh
it's like they want it to be natural so
bad that they're going to make it
natural. Does that make sense? Like it's
going
>> artificially natural like you're saying.
artificially
>> it's like what's the craziest thing get
your car keys and you know that's how
they did it [laughter] you know and that
that's how they did it on whatever it's
called and no we need to be living in
the and I'm like
>> I think it's it's just a sort of
commodification of everything and
>> as
if it's less gatekept by technology or
by expertise it means that more people
are going to be tempted to do it the
problem is going to be can we remove
drudgery from people's lives without
taking away the stuff that actually
matters to them without taking away
[snorts]
>> not just like you want to be involved in
this thing but it is genuinely better
for you
>> to take a longer route round to take a
higher friction route from where you are
to the outcome of this thing because
it's going to be better for you maybe
the work will be worse
>> but the win will mean something and it
won't be as forgettable uh you know
>> yeah it's strange I guess it's it's
weird in music because for such a long
time there's been teams writers and, you
know, bands even. It's like, okay, so
you said the lyric and maybe the [ __ ]
guy that wrote the lyrics left. It's
like a 10-year-old song, right? And the
guy maybe he's dead. Yeah. You know,
he's Oh, well, he's not even a part of
the band anymore, but we're still
singing it and it's ours. We get to own
it. So, it's there's been more fluidity,
but that also, I think, means it could
be a slippery slope.
>> Oh, yeah.
>> Mastering. What do we [ __ ] You must
be able to oneclick master track. not as
well as a elite audio engineer now I'm
guessing but you must be able to
oneclick master tracks now with
>> for sure I I I mean and again like some
of it is good so I I want to say like I
want to be it's important I say that
some of it is good because there's also
a lot less gatekeepers nowadays in music
>> it is so sick that I can write a song
called like Cole that I believe in and I
can record it on my laptop I put it out
and it does better than 99% of all the
money pushed multi- songwriter songs. I
love it. That's awesome. I love it.
That's That's great. I think that is a
great side of like entry access.
>> Um but democratized it so that you can
compete.
>> Exactly. But you're right. Like it it's
a slippery because as soon as people go
that works, hold on. And it's like hold
on. We're the millionaire.
>> Where's [ __ ] where's where's gossip
AI? How do I make
>> Yeah, dude. But it's like that works.
It's only a matter of time. That that's
the thing. Maybe that's what I'm trying
to get. I'm not trying to sound like
bleak. Like everything that's good, it's
all youventually.
Yeah. But it kind of feels like that.
Like in in the industry, there are
thousands of people working every single
day to find the next new thing. So when
you have something like pull or
something like I don't know anyone else
in this industry that has a song, people
are going to be like, "What did they do?
Why did it work? How can we replicate
it?"
>> Yep. And how do we just dump a truckload
of money behind it and just make it
happen?
>> Did you see Did you see that uh was it a
variety piece about Geese? You know that
band Geese? Yeah.
>> I didn't see I didn't see the piece
about
>> it was like a big article about how the
engine the clipping engine and stuff was
behind that band. I think the band were
pretty successful beforehand and then
it's just you know you really put the
[ __ ] fuel nitrous booster but
whatnot.
>> Between
where was this song originated? Who
wrote the lyrics? Because is it an AI
song if AI helped you to craft the
lyrics and then you sang them?
>> What about if I think so? But my point
is like at what point how far back do
you go? Okay. So, I'm really struggling
with um Rhyr's block. That's it's an app
for iPhone. I'm really struggling with a
a word that rhymes with small but fits
this. Oh, I'll just go in. It's like at
what point where do you draw the line?
>> I do. That's a great question. And as
technology begins to democratize it, the
only place that you have this that you
can make this decision is my own kind of
moral gauge for what I want on the other
side of it.
>> Yeah. I think dude, I mean, there's a
gray area, but I think it's one of those
things where it's like, you know,
>> you know what I'm saying? It's one of
like I I feel like
>> the ick radar.
>> Yeah. And it's it's
I mean I I even it's I'm not trying to
get like too deep, but I think this goes
with a lot of things. I think there are
people that
are just going to always push the
envelope of be like, well, what am I
what am I allowed to do? Like always
trying to be like, how much wrong can I
do before I get in trouble? And I try
not to look at it that way. I try to be
like
>> because you don't demoralize it.
>> Yeah. And I also just I just like I
don't have
I don't I don't think I have that thing
in me where I'm like how how how much
can I squeeze out of this to with AI to
help me write this song without people
thinking that it's AI. And it's like I
think if you're doing that like you know
what you're doing.
>> But I think if you're if you're if
you're a kid at home and you're trying
to like you wrote this song and you're
like dang what's that word? Open up the
dictionary. open up like a rhyming uh
website or something and you find like
oh cool that kid has no intention of
being like you know
>> this [ __ ] words was written by
>> yeah like that that's his song you know
like I I because he's I don't think that
that that someone like that's pushing
the envel
I don't I don't know how to like word
this correctly but I just think
I think you know you know like if or do
I mean like there's also the debate
about you know uh producers and mixers
and engineers and stuff like you said
like what if they use AI to kind of like
help them with
>> the side chain really hard.
>> Yeah. And it's like
>> yeah okay I you know as long as there's
an argument there's hey there's an
argument to be made that as soon as
you've got doors and you're like hey
back in the day dude we have to take a
[ __ ] lead take it out of that synth
put it into that so you want to chain
those things together go and get your f
go and get your
>> quad jack.
>> Yeah. Is like is le an electric piano
you know. So yeah, again I I think it
comes down to like you just know in your
gut like you're
>> you're either making music or something
else is making the music for you and
it's like I don't know.
>> It seems like uh you take a very sort of
emotionally informed approach to music.
It's quite self-deprecating
sort of stark sometimes I think. Is that
fair?
>> Yeah. Uh I think I think it kind of
depends like and I also think it really
changes the mood of the song itself.
Like uh I don't know. know, I I find
those songs can be easier to write. I
feel like when I write my happy songs,
they come off cheesier when I when I
feel like it's the same level of lyrical
writing. Um, dude, and it's also Yeah,
it also if I put if I put Cole on like
an EDM track, I guarantee people be
like, they wouldn't really care about
what the lyrics like doesn't feel sad.
Yeah.
>> It's like, have you seen have you seen
people that play like ballad piano like
the Drake and Josh theme song and it's
it sounds like a beautifully written
song and you're like it's kind of deep.
Like it's kind of a sad, you know,
whatever, but it's like it's all how
it's framed. I I I think I mean I think
of like Jason Isbo when it comes to
this, but
>> if you put his type of lyricism into his
type of guitar playing and his voice and
the raspiness, like it's going to come
off that way. um whether it's intention
to be or not. Or then you you can go
listen to like a turnpike song who I
think is some of the best writers in the
world, but maybe they're four on the
floor and it's kind of a more upbeat
groove, but he's talking about how like
my dad's going to whoop my ass. I
remember back in this county like it's
it's might be a sad feeling or whatever
it is. I'm not trying to say that song
specifically, but um and it feels
upbeat. You're like, "Oh, I can get
down. This is party, you know, it's a
good time." So
>> forget forget the lyrics. I remember.
>> Yeah. I think I think it's Yeah. Yeah, I
think it's sometimes the way that it's
played on the guitar, you're playing
different like minor chords and stuff
like that. Um, but I like to lean into
that. Like I feel like I love listening
to music like that. Even when I'm like
happy, I'll be I'll be the happiest guy
in the world and I'm like, "Let me put
on a sad one. Let me put on a slow one."
>> Why do you think male sadness is
dominating modern country?
>> I think I think two things. Uh, I think
for one, um,
I think it's the only place where I feel
like a lot of guys, a lot of males, um,
feel like they're allowed to talk about
it. Like without being without like, for
example, if I went up to like my buddies
or in our group chat and said how I felt
in Cole, it would come off of like like,
brother, get it together. What are you
talking about? But you put country music
behind it and it's like, dang, that's a
beautiful song. I actually connect with
that, but I'm not going to like say I
do. you know, it it feels like it's guys
uh almost like a dude therapy session.
And I think that's why so many people
write about it is that it connects
really deeply. It almost like it says
the feelings that a lot of these dudes I
think feel, but they're like bluecollar
fellas. Like I'm not telling I'm not
telling nobody how I feel. But like
dude, when at our shows the the people
who are like heart and soul singing it
out there in the crowd are the are the
dudes. Arms are on each other that I
promise they would leave that show and
they would never tell each other about
their feelings. But they come to the
show and they're looking at each other
screaming these lyrics and it's like
yeah it's like cathartic. It's like it's
their
>> it's like a thing. So I think I don't
know. I think it just comes off
>> well. It's like the way to way to do it
as a dude without still being cool. I
wonder if it's a weird comment on
masculinity that men feel comfortable
seeing their emotions reflected in
lyrics but uncomfortable exposing them
in daily life. Like this guy has said
this thing that I feel he's put words.
I'm happy to sing it.
>> Yeah.
>> I'm happy I'm happy to sing it at his
show.
>> Yeah.
>> And I'm still It feels like there is
room for that. It's a It's a really
interesting sort of balance between
those two things.
>> Yeah. And it almost it almost feels like
sometimes the opposite for women. Like
it almost feels like female songs are
empowering and male songs are about
vulnerability.
>> Yeah. But but and it's and it's the
opposite too where it's like when women
sing about vulnerability, it's almost
like the male crowd is like here we go
another you know another female country
talking about a breakup. But it's like
when guys do it it's like brother, you
know, [laughter] I got you. So it is it
kind of feels like that's that's the
male outlet. sometimes is like through
music and then
>> I feel like the girl outlet again I'm
I'm not trying to be the guy speaking on
behalf of all the women out there. I
would never do that but um yeah it kind
of feels like it's the opposite where
it's you know
>> I thought [snorts] I don't know maybe
I'm wrong.
>> I thought uh I sit in parks by Kelsey
Ballerini was such a fascinating [ __ ]
concept for a song.
>> I haven't heard that.
>> Oh dude. So, it's her talking about um a
relationship that she used to be in and
she didn't go through with it because
her partner wanted to have kids and she
wanted to focus on her career. And then
a few years later, she's sitting in the
park on a weekend looking at this family
playing with the kid and she's asking,
"Have I made a mistake? Have I made a
choice that I can't reverse?" Yeah. Uh,
so I take my Lexa Pro and I, uh, puff on
my vape and the album's due in March and
my next tour is coming up and my
friend's about to have a kid and I'm
worried. I'm worried I missed this
thing. And that was really like [ __ ]
raw, like very very complex.
>> Yes, maybe I might I might have missed
the mark cuz also Pin House by Kelsey
Valerini, like that's also a great song
and it's like kind of about a
relationship. So yeah, may maybe I'm
wrong, but I disagree. I I think that
you're right. I think that the
especially a lot of the country music
tropes, maybe that's the reason. Maybe
that's one of the reasons why that if
you hear a guy talking about
vulnerability, it feels rarer.
>> Yeah.
>> And it's now being done through this
vehicle, which is music.
>> And it's
>> uh almost like the tortured hero, the
only way that he can even open his heart
is to do it to a chord. You know, it's
like that's the the excuse that's being
given, but it's also a defense
mechanism. It's a defense mechanism
>> because if guys aren't comfortable about
talking about it normally,
>> this frames it in an artistic and
romantic way that just creates a little
bit of distance, but I don't actually
need to show myself in the same way as
you said yourself. If I open up in the
in the group chat, it's different to
what's going to happen if I open up in a
song. Well, the kind of thing that blows
my mind is how many guys would love to
have that outlet but aren't singer
songwriters and how difficult it is to
find something else cuz I think
>> yeah writing songs
>> maybe poetry but that's perhaps even
more inaccessible than than some singer
songwriter
>> essaying micro blogging stuff on
substack and you can write in the third
person and that feels that's probably a
little bit more accessible But [ __ ] me.
Beyond that, it's like you're into the
world of YouTube and conversations with
your therapist. Yeah. So, it's I know
it's a
>> and I guess like that that might be like
the dudes that come to those shows, you
know, that's like
>> it's group therapy.
>> It's like, man, I can't sing it, but I'm
going to I'm going to try and not, you
know, or get in the car or do it or um
>> yeah, drink and then talk to the
buddies. Like, you know,
>> if you're going to spend an hour in the
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and modernwisdom10 a checkout. What uh
what emotions have you found to be the
hardest to write about?
>> Probably
like happy, I think. And not not in a
way it's like a man, I can't write about
being happy cuz I can, but I feel like
it it doesn't come off the tongue as
easy as like
as like a sadder, more heartfelt song. I
feel like I can really paint that
picture versus like when I'm singing a
song and and maybe like I mean like
happy. I don't mean like love. I feel
like I can write really well about love.
I I feel like I can write about my wife
like a lot. I have I've written a ton of
songs about her and I feel like those
are some of my favorites I've ever
written. Um but I'm talking about just
straight up this one's going to come in
come come on in the bar. I struggle with
that. Um, I don't know why. I I think
some people nail it and I've just I I
can't It's not always there.
>> I mean, I spoke to Dan and Shay about
this.
>> Luke Holmes [ __ ]
>> unbelievable. Like, got
>> as much swagger as it's possible for a
white guy to have. Like, [laughter] he's
the blackest white guy that you can
think of. And um but when you think
about the that sort of arc over the last
what decade or so of his of his
songwriting, you go from very sort of
tortured, uncertain, tumultuous
crisis and now there's a bit of me that
wants him to smoke some crack. There's
[laughter] a bit of me that wants him to
like have that friction again in life
because
>> things are going well and my son misses
me when I go away, but I do come back
and like my dad's getting older and
that's going to be hard when it doesn't
happen. And he's still [ __ ] ripping
it.
>> Yeah.
>> But how much harder you have to work
>> to make a banging song when you don't
have that friction in your life.
>> Yeah. I mean, you're almost beginning to
concoct stories or you're hearing things
that have happened to other people or,
you know, confabulating ideas and and
and tales of an imagined world, a
different world that you could have
lived in, right? This is what I could
have been. It's like your life's so good
that you have to imagine what you don't
have in order to be able to create
because for some reason,
>> people seem to resonate a lot with
>> that pain and that vulnerability. And
again, if art is imitating life and your
life's going really [ __ ] well,
What are you going to be singing about?
>> Yeah. What's What Yeah. What's What's
your sad song? Show me your pain. Yeah.
And again, I don't think it's the worst
thing in the world, too, when people
like because I I also love being a
storyteller. I love writing songs about
I have a song called Lonal Cowboy, which
is about,
>> you know, a guy going and getting
cheated on, killing the guy, and on the
run. And I'm like, I I never did that.
But I think I I love the storytelling
aspect. And that comes from I think kind
of more like that western
>> kind of swing old music like Marty
Robbins like about like the gunfighter
ballad and everything. There's like a
whole album of just like ballads written
about like gunfighters and stuff.
>> It's almost like fables in a way
mythology.
>> Yeah. But then but then there also gets
to like Yeah. You start getting into
what feels like it could be a real
story. Like obviously no one thinks that
I went and shot this guy and ran away.
But, you know, when I when I sing a song
about maybe some a stranger that I see
that I'm like, I'm just going to make up
what I think his life is like and tell
that story. Um, I think that's also
sick. I think that's really cool.
>> Do you know where Jolene came from? The
Dolly Parton song.
>> I don't know. Maybe. I don't think so.
I'm pretty sure it's written about a
bank teller, bank assistant that flirted
with her husband
>> and she didn't use the name of the bank
teller but found a lady at a party who
had the name Jolene
>> and placed the name of the lady. Story
came from a beautiful bank teller who
flirted with Dolly's husband Caldine
shortly after they got married. Dolly
said the woman was tall, redhead and
paid Carl a lot of attention. Carl
enjoyed the attention. Dolly joked that
he seemed to spend an awful lot of time
at the bank for someone with so little
money. Became the seed for the song. It
was more of a playful thing. The name
Jolene came from a totally different
person. An 8-year-old red-headed fan who
asked Ollie for an autograph. She
thought Jolene was such a beautiful name
that she told the girl she was going to
use. She wrote Jolene and I will always
love you. That's not right. She didn't
write I will always love you. It was
working 9 to5. Um she didn't write I
will always love you, did she?
>> That's Yeah.
>> Did she?
>> Yeah. That that's her song. That's her
song. And then Whitney Houston sang it
on what was what was the movie? And then
and then I think Dolly was I think Dolly
publicly said like that's your song now.
Like it's No, that was Yeah, that's
that's that's Dolly song.
>> Jolene and I will always love you in the
same day.
>> Talk about crazy.
>> Yeah. [ __ ] you with your [ __ ] 25minut
whole.
>> Yeah. Get on a level.
>> Yeah. She's like let me just write some
of the two
>> two absolute bangers. But yeah um
>> again you've con concocted this story.
You've taken you know one element from
the other.
>> Oh and then I guess it was inspire. So,
Linda Ronstat sang it. Every song that
ever she sings is just better. Um,
that's so cool.
>> Whitney's record became the best one of
the bestselling singers of all time. 14
consecutive weeks at number one. Pretty
sure that uh this has just been knocked
off the top by
uh Ella.
>> Really?
>> Yeah. Uh because it's Whitney Houston
and Mariah Carey who both had the 14 and
I'm pretty sure that 15 is now
>> Ella.
>> Yeah.
>> It's crazy.
>> [ __ ] wild. Good. That's That's so
sick.
>> I wonder whether there's any emotions
that you want to sing about, but you
don't think that the market has an
appetite for.
I mean, okay, here here's a great
example, and I know a lot of artists
struggle with this. I'll play an
acoustic song on my back porch, and I'll
play it a certain way, but I know the
studio is different. Studio version is
different. It's got some drums, has a
little, you know, slide maybe in it.
It's just kind of more upbeat. and then
you'll put out that version and
everyone's like just just don't change
it.
>> Give me the poet.
>> Give me the poor, you know. And it's
like
>> I think you have to try to expand your
sound. Like I I was watching that Billy
Joel documentary. So cool. By the way,
if you haven't seen it, it's like 5
hours long. It's incredible. His life is
just it's what the heck. But
>> he always made it a point to change the
way his sound was. Bob Dylan did the
same thing where he went to the Newport
Folk Festival and Ern was like, you
know, get your harmonic out. and he's
like, "I want to play an electric
guitar." And it it's it's uh
you feel like you don't want to get
trapped in like your own trope. Like I'm
not trying to get trapped in this like
I'm an acoustic guy. I'm going to sing
about how hard my life is. And
but
you also want to service the people who
listen to your music the most. Like you
know that's what they want. That's and
it's like yeah it's this it's it's like
this push and pull thing. So I I feel
like feel like I've done the best job
that I can. Like I don't really put too
much pressure I'm still making music
that I love. I really not I don't try to
overthink it. Um but yeah, I know a lot
of artists that fall into that thing
where it's like
I want to put out different music, but I
just know it's probably not going to do
well. And if I do it, if I put out this
song, I probably do a lot better because
that's what I'm known for. That's what
people want to hear. You know the idea
of audience capture? Have you heard of
that? Okay. So, it's from my world's uh
content creation YouTube. Um you test
the ground with a bunch of different
content. maybe you start to pick up a
little bit of speed
>> and then you find something that hooks a
bit. You start talking about uh
politics, but you talk about it from a
libertarian lens and you're you're sort
of you're maybe a bit more bombastic
than you used to be.
>> Yeah.
>> Oh, wow. They like that.
>> Oh, well, I'll being rewarded for that.
I'll I'll go again. And you get a bit
more bombastic. You get a bit more
bombastic. And before you know it,
you're like peak Alex Jones, you know,
sort of shouting and screaming and and
and doing the thing. and you begin to
throw red meat to your audience and
instead of creating what you want to
create, you give them what you think
they want.
>> The problem with it
>> is that you can achieve success with it
because you're basically taking audience
feedback, which in some ways is is
important and good. Like movies screen
test the versions, right? And they check
how what were people's reviews, should
we change this, but this felt a bit
slow. People didn't understand that. So,
you know, audience feedback is
important, but if you're not careful,
especially if you're doing something
that's very iterative, over time, your
audience doesn't fall in love with you.
They fall in love with your projection
of what you think they want you to be.
>> Yeah.
>> Like this weird reverse puppet thing
where the audience has got their hand
inside of you doing this. And reliably,
every single person that I've seen do
it, and there's a bunch of people that
have done it in in my world and probably
tons in yours as well, every single
person eventually has ended up resenting
the audience.
>> Because what happens is you
contort yourself into this weird shape
that you think the audience has rewarded
you for.
>> And then if they don't like what you're
doing anymore,
>> you feel so agrieved because you
betrayed yourself.
>> Yeah. for an audience that doesn't even
want the act that you're playing. Yeah.
And it is so it's so [ __ ] reliable.
So that's one side. That's audience
capture. Then Ethan Strauss has got this
[ __ ] unbelievable post where he talks
about criticism capture which is the
opposite side of it.
>> So audience capture was this big term
for a long time. People do what they
think the audience wants. It's the
musician who denies himself the move
from acoustic to electronic or a total
pivot in terms of singing style because
he doesn't think that the audience is
going to want it.
>> Yeah,
>> that's your audience capture. Criticism
capture is behaving in a way to avoid
criticism or frontr run it from your
audience instead. So instead of acting
out of encouraging desire, it's acting
out of defending against hate.
>> Yeah.
>> So what are people going to criticize me
for doing most likely?
and how do I frontr run that so that it
doesn't happen. So you see this in the
same way in my world
>> um people start to caveat a lot they'll
before they say anything well we must
remember that this they'll do this sort
of land acknowledgement this throat
clearing thing beforehand or in a
different way people sort of steam out
of the gates really aggressively and
that they're super ardent and militant
and they no quarter given no and that's
another way to do it. They're sort of
pushing people out. They're frontr
running the the complaint. They're
either um making themselves so
inoffensive that they don't say anything
so that they don't get criticized or
they kind of shadow box this imaginary
opponent who doesn't really exist in an
attempt to scare off critics. So, and
you see it's so [ __ ] warping. It's
just audience dynamics, reward and pain.
And people are playing with these two
levers in an attempt to try and get as
much pleasure and as little discomfort
as possible. And
>> and it kind of kind of leaves you on
eggshells where you're just like ah I
don't know what to do.
>> Yeah. And it's dude especially like
nowadays with social media everything's
so instant that like I think that messes
with artists quite a bit of just the
most instant feedback you can have.
>> You'll you'll walk off a stage uh you
know sit in the green room and you're
getting tweets or you know or you're
getting your stories up and it's Yeah.
It you know and with the phones Yeah. I
used to I don't know.
>> But have you seen Jerry, can you pull up
that video? I want you to show you that
there's two videos going back to back
that I think are pretty interesting.
There's this Morgan Wallen video that's
floating around at the moment, which is
him in a [ __ ] huge stadium and
someone saying uh the performance
standard for male versus female artists
is so different is all I will say.
[music]
>> [laughter]
[music]
[music]
>> That's closer to a military reenactment.
Uh is so much. So anyway, and then look
at this. Pull that other video up,
Jared.
>> Is it the Tate McCrae one?
>> Yeah. I mean, it is just
>> an insane level of
>> of It's the most polished. Like look at
this.
Oh, I'm going to dip myself in literal
liquid gold.
Oh my god. That like actual
[screaming]
>> I'm sorry.
>> I mean that's like the whole like the
coach show of like Justin Bieber the
night.
>> I'm waiting for you to do
>> Oh yeah. That's that's dipped in liquid.
That's in That's in the next set. We're
doing that.
>> That's the next album.
>> Well, it's just I mean it's different.
Like I've been I've been to a Morgan
show. It also like the production is
still crazy. Him himself might not be
>> he needs dance number.
>> You know what I mean? But
>> he needs a dance number.
>> I guess like dude it's also it's also
this recency bias thing where people
just they just have to keep doing the
next big thing and make it bigger which
like in entertainment that's a good
thing. Like obviously you should be
challenged but I mean you go look at the
female acts from like I don't know 1950
or even the male acts like everyone's on
a microphone and just doing the same
thing like I don't know but yeah I guess
when did that separation happened cuz I
mean we used to have like in sync
backstre boys and they were doing
>> full production like when did it become
>> I mean MGK is bringing it back
>> he's got full dance numbers on stage
he's got you choreography
>> but like everything that's everything
that's new is now old you know.
>> Yeah. Oh yeah. It's like, "Oh, they used
to do that now."
>> That's cool. Let's bring that back.
>> All right, dude. Let's round this out.
What's your Give us a little something
from the the new album. Whatever you
like the sound of.
>> I'll play I'll play a song called
Clothesline. Um,
should I sing this one? Yeah, this one's
good. I think I think this is going to
be a single, maybe. I don't know.
>> That's something you could do this
afternoon.
>> But no, but I do it on purpose. I I But
this I guess this is what I'm talking
about. like when I
I
yes, I could choose the singles and have
it all on a calendar and rock it and
just go, but I
I don't again I I think this something
that I probably I struggle with is kind
of the
system formula thing. I don't know. Like
I I I would rather go like week by week
or like feel it out. I don't know. Yeah.
I I don't know. I I I I I
think it's going to be the single.
>> But again, I I also actually this and I
will I'll sing it right after this, but
>> this brings me back to a point that we
were talking about earlier uh about like
teasing music and crowd sourcing and
being like what song does better? Like
there's a part of me that misses the way
of like when an artist puts out an
album, you don't know what the songs
are.
>> They've not waterfall released five in
advance.
>> Yes. you don't know what the songs are
and you are stoked to dive in.
>> Yeah.
>> And I'm trying to play this middle
ground of like, okay, business-wise,
yes, we should be teasing songs and, you
know, getting people excited. And I'm
not saying it's a bad thing, but there's
a side of me that's like, man, wouldn't
it be great just to give fans just 12
new songs that everyone can be excited
for and you have no idea what it sounds
like? It might be a whole new sound.
Like that's kind of what used to happen.
Or like I don't know. Like I just think
that side of it's cool. Like my favorite
thing, I know I brought them up a lot,
um, but Turnpike when they dropped Price
of Admission, they did no singles. All
they did was put up a billboard in the
middle of the desert and was like,
"Alum's out in two weeks."
>> I think that is so cool. Now, I'm not
saying everyone can do that.
>> Algorithmically might not be the most
effective way to do it, but it's sick.
>> But that Yeah. And that but that's where
like as an artist, you have to kind of
weigh your options between, you know,
like we said earlier, like what's
authentic
>> and at the end of the day, like what is
going to get people this music? like
what's going to pay the bills and do you
know there's a fine line so
>> unreal.
>> But anyways, uh this one's called
Clothesline. I haven't played this one
in a while. I
>> I should I'll remember it. That's
another thing. I'm bad with lyrics, but
[music]
Oh, wait. Am I plugged in?
>> Yeah, I am. Okay.
This one's called Line.
Baking soda on the bed sheets.
Make me [music] smell brand new.
I'm sleeping in [singing] and I'm going
out trying not to think too much about
you.
Don't call me later when my lights
[music and singing] off. I notice how
you do.
You call [music and singing] me once we
have my door later in the morning.
You'll be gone too soon. Cuz I know
you're just going to hang [singing] me
out to dry.
So close
to being left on that clos
[singing and music] line. Oh, second
guessing's always left in this so
[singing] hard of mine. [music]
Baby, I know
you're just going to [music] hang me
out. Hang me [singing] out.
>> [music]
[singing]
[music]
>> So stopping early at [singing] yellow
lights said [music] it ain't worth the
risk.
You used to tell me that I'm moving too
fast [singing and music] with your hand
tied around my wrist.
So treat me like you was years [singing]
ago
before [music] you change your mind.
Said I was nothing but a hopeless
[music and singing] soul lover. And
baby, maybe you'd be right. I know
you're [music] just going to hang me out
to drive
so close
to being left [singing and music] on
that clos line. No second guessing
always left in this [music and singing]
old so heart of mine. Baby, I know
you're just going to hang me out. Hang
me out. [music and singing]
[singing and music]
Now I know
you're just going to hang [singing] me
out to drive so [music] close
to being left on that clos line.
Second guessing [singing and music]
always left so hard of mine. Baby, I
know
you're just going to hang [singing] me
out. Hang me out.
>> [music]
[singing]
[music]
>> Let's [ __ ] go. Dylan Gosset, ladies
and gentlemen.
>> Thank you,
>> dude. You rule. Congratulations. New
album's out when?
>> September 25th.
>> [ __ ] yeah.
>> So,
>> appreciate the heck out of you, man.
>> Yeah. Thanks for having me.
>> All right. Goodbye, my beauties. Dude,
>> that was a great time, brother.
>> [ __ ] Thanks so much for having me.
>> Blast.
>> That was so much.
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