On March 25th, 1948, something crashed
in the New Mexico desert.
An 100 ft flying saucer complete with 16
charred alien bodies seen by multiple
eyewitnesses from different vantage
points. We have four of them on record.
>> The UFO came from that [music] direction
over there, but it was making this sound
like almost whistling.
Welcome to Aztec, Roswell's younger,
weirder, scarlet-lettered sister. It
might be the most overlooked crash in
UFO history.
>> Some people were talking about [music]
it in the news. They got calls from the
military. Stop. Don't say anything more.
They were out there taking pictures.
>> With more evidence attached to it than
any other in the United States and
certainly more than the [music] almighty
Roswell. We look over at the mesa and
there's this red light and we're like,
"Oh man, what is that? Someone's out
there." Well, then all of a sudden,
>> but for reasons we'll get into, very few
people, even many diehard UFO believers,
want to touch it. Aztec was the first
case that was written [music] about. It
was viciously, viciously smeared. The
Wikipedia page literally calls it Aztec
crashed saucer hoax.
But what if the hoax was manufactured?
[music] never-beforeseen FBI documents,
CIA disinformation agents, breakins, and
a cover up that keeps going till today.
In this [music] episode, we'll take you
deep into Hart Canyon, where we'll stand
on the exact spot where [music]
witnesses claim that 16 alien bodies
were laid out while a Baptist preacher
prayed over them at the request of the
military. My old friend Chris Ramsay
from the incredible YouTube channel
[music] Area 52 joins the investigation.
We'll follow the bizarre trail of dead
and uprooted trees allegedly left behind
by the craft and its recovery. We'll
even examine a polished marble that was
found 6 in deep at the crash site
decades earlier. A piece we send out for
testing and get results on by the end of
this episode.
And the craft itself sounds straight out
of Star Trek with an upper deck,
seamless construction, even hieroglyphic
writing. Apparently, many of the
scientists who studied it could only
stay inside for 20 minutes at a time
before experiencing bad side effects.
But this isn't just a story about a
crash. It's about the town of [music]
Aztec itself and the strange uninvited
visitors that apparently never stopped
[music] coming. looked like a surgeon
had taken it off. No, but no blood.
>> What was your first instinct that a
human had done it or that something
else?
>> That's something else had done it.
>> Where the government once detonated an
atomic bomb underground to blast open
natural gas reserves?
>> 3 2 1 gas buggy.
>> And right next [music] door is
Farmington where back in 1950 half the
town watched hundreds of silver discs
swarm across the sky. an event that came
to be known as the Farmington Armada.
>> The first day there were a few. The
second day there were too many to count.
>> We might potentially
be standing exactly where
alien bodies were laying at rest.
>> To give us the tour on the town, the
crash site, and get us clued in on the
entire history, we had the best tour
guides in the world, Scott and Suzanne
Ramsay. It's one of the most
comprehensive cases that exist. It's
multi-dimensional, not just one level of
I saw this or somebody told me this. We
feel confident after all these years and
a lot of money, a lot of time that it
actually occurred.
>> Would you be willing to say how much
you've spent in total?
>> We've spent over a half million dollars.
>> Wow.
This North Carolina based couple took
the mantle from famed UFO researcher
Bill Steinman. At least twice [music]
now, Aztec researchers set to meet with
the Ramsies to share their research
ended up dead. Chris Evans meets with
Alice Scully and becomes aware that
there's real documentation around the
Aztec crash. Wants to urgently meet with
you guys. And then [music] what happens
next?
>> He died the day that he was coming to
see Susanna.
>> No way. And when we got the news, it was
like somebody punched us.
>> If things couldn't get any stranger,
when we finally reached the crash
[music] site ourselves, someone was
waiting for us. A stranger with curious
ties to the Air Force. He showed up at
Hart Canyon, which is very obscure and
hard to get to at the same time we did.
He also seemed to know a lot more about
all of us than he let on. Without
further [music] ado, the UFO crash at
Aztec New Mexico with this week's
amazing American Alchemists Scott and
Suzanne Ramsay.
>> Ignition sequence.
[music]
>> How is this possible?
>> Nothing too unusual about that.
[music]
Their existence cannot longer be denied.
Our
trip doesn't start in New Mexico. It
starts in Morsville, North Carolina.
This is where Scott and [music] Suzanne
live. The Ramsies are the picture of
persistence. They've poured over a half
a million dollars of their own money
over decades trying to get to the
[music] truth on Aztec. And when I say
they are trying to get to the truth,
these are researchers that love when
misconceptions [music]
get debunked.
>> He started out to prove it or disprove
it. And that's always been our
philosophy.
>> I didn't care.
>> If it [music] shows true, fine. If it
doesn't, that's fine, too. But at least
you can put that [music] to bed.
>> Scott and Suzanne were literally brought
together by the Aztec case. Scott was
the first to learn about it while on a
business trip in 1988. He was in Denver
but got delayed due to weather problems.
So he took a trip to Farmington, New
Mexico to meet a potential customer.
While waiting on that meeting, he
overheard a couple of Navajo men sitting
there talking about going hunting by the
old quote unquote crash site. He said,
"Oh, by out by the old crash site."
>> The wreck is outside Aztec.
>> Aztec? What did you find out there?
>> So I proed it a little bit and said,
"You know what? What are you talking
about crash site?" "Oh, it's an old
wives tale. Who knows? UFO crashed out
there. Late 40s, early 50s. Who? Who
knows? Since so it's like folklore.
Well, kind of. You think it happened? I
don't know. People think it did.
>> This is the [music] turn. You miss it,
you keep driving.
>> Really? Cuz I want to hear where this
crash site was. From that point forward,
Scott was hooked. He started his own
vigilante research efforts.
Suzanne was born in South Dakota to a
mother who was obsessed [music] with
UFOs, an obsession sparked by the first
book on Aztec, Behind the Flying
Saucers, by variety columnist Frank
[music] Scully. Suzanne's mother was so
inspired by Scully that she moved the
entire [music] family to Flora Vista, a
suburb of Aztec. She went to work for a
local radio station where in 1999 she
ran [music] into Scott who was quickly
becoming one of the deepest researchers
on the UFO incident. The rest [music]
was history. They've never given up on
this case. They have a shipping
container worth of data, documents, and
[music] artifacts at their place in
North Carolina. And they've probably
been to the Aztec crash site over a
hundred times. Their primary income
isn't through UFO research, and whatever
little money they've made by selling
books pales in comparison to what
they've spent. Suzanne runs a root beer
company she calls Uncle Scott's that she
named after Scott. [music] And Scott
himself literally has a business which
fabricates components for the national
labs all over the country. Name me
another person who [music] works
directly with PhD physicists at Los
Alamos, but has also amassed more
information than anyone [music] on the
planet about a UFO crash in his spare
time. And he's done it without [music] a
clearance.
Now it was time to go directly to the
scene of the crime. Welcome to Aztec,
[music] New Mexico. Population 6,800.
UFO crashes? Maybe one, depending on who
you ask. For a town where an 100 ft
flying saucer supposedly came down,
they're weirdly low on alien
merchandise. Meanwhile, its older
sibling Roswell built an alien empire
with its own gravitational pole. It has
a UFO museum, gift shops, street lights
with alien eyes, even a glow-in-the-dark
spacew [music] walk with a wormhole you
can walk through. And that's all due to
a saucer that crashed into pieces
[music] in 1947
100 miles away. Unlike the UFO Mecca
Roswell has created, Aztec has done
practically nothing.
>> Roswell and the folks of Roswell have
embraced it as an opportunity to
celebrate it and and it's a financial
benefit to them and there's nothing
wrong with that. That's what they've
chosen to do. Aztec. The fact that
they it was professed to be a hoax, I
think put some [music] shed some uh
shame on it and it embarrassed people to
even be associated with it.
>> Here's the tipping point. Azteex right
here.
>> And if they would politicize, well, not
politicize, if they would advertise that
and do that, it would go.
>> It is a little bit odd, but there are
some people that, you know, just, you
know, want to shut it down. I kind of
don't have an opinion about it one way
or the other. I think it's interesting.
Something happened.
>> So, what repelled Aztec from its own
biggest story? What left the residents
[music] split between believers and
skeptics? We get a lot of people that
email us and from Denmark, from Sweden,
from Germany, from South Africa. Hey,
we're coming to we're gonna fly to
Albuquerque,
you know, going to JFK, JFK to
Albuquerque, and then we're going to
drive up to Aztec. Can you give us the
coordinates?
>> Yeah.
>> And we Yeah. Great. Tell us how you
liked it. We've never had a negative
feedback.
>> Okay.
>> Not coordinates here to the crash site.
>> Okay.
>> Where we just spent the whole day.
>> Okay.
>> You ever been out there?
>> I I've been out there once.
>> I think next time that they crash, they
just need to make it more convenient for
us. That's the only thing that I would
wish.
>> Yeah.
How are you feeling?
>> I feel like the like it feels kind of
trippy energy, like interesting energy
around.
>> A lot of people say,
>> "Yeah."
>> Do you guys still get that feeling
coming here?
>> Yeah.
>> It's exciting for Scott and I every time
that we come here, but then for somebody
new to see it and experience it, and
you're certainly taking the time to
actually live it.
And how is anyone sure that this didn't
happen when Scott himself has talked to
four direct witnesses and countless
others with secondderee connections?
There was probably 16 or 18 witnesses.
>> How many have you spoken to directly?
>> Let's see. Doug Nolan, Ken Farley, the
preacher, the preacher's son, one other
gentleman. So yeah, if you were to uh
kind of add up, you know, the people
you've had direct contact with and
people where maybe you interviewed a
secondderee connection that you felt was
trusted,
>> son, daughter, granddaughter. Yeah. Um
quite a bit.
>> Would that move it over eight over 50%
or
>> Oh, yeah. We might be at 75%.
>> Wow.
>> Yeah.
>> Here is the best account of what those
witnesses say actually happened.
Cuba, New Mexico, about a 100 miles
south of Aztec on Old Highway 44.
It's the night of March 24th, 1948. A
part-time cop named Manuel Sandival ends
up at the Hotel Cafe with a New Mexico
Highway Patrolman named Andy Andrews,
swapping notes over coffee [music] and
pie. They would meet for coffee at the
uh little restaurant and they have
highend coffee and talk about things
that were going on and the subject of
UFOs came up just about every night.
>> Mrs. Herrera called in lights again last
[music] night. Third time this week.
>> Weird lights cutting across the sky.
Next time I see one of those things,
I'm going [music] to follow it
>> in that truck. I can't catch a tractor.
So when a disc comes wobbling low over
Cuba that night, Sandival does the thing
he'd been saying he would do. He goes
after it all night. It doesn't really
glide. It flutters like a leaf.
80 miles up that same road, rancher
Valentine Archeletta walks out before
sunrise to let his sheep out to pasture.
His family has worked this land since
the late 1700s when they settled here
under a Spanish land grant. Generations
later, his granddaughter still farms
[music] those same fields.
>> His full name was Telesphoto Valentine
Archeletta. [music]
He was an awesome, awesome grandfather,
very respected in these parts. He was a
baton death march survivor.
>> The death march, the forced march of the
American prisoners by the Japanese,
which caused many to die. These were the
troops the general had in mind when he
returned to the Philippines.
>> From the west, he hears a swoosh, like a
vacuum imploding,
then a sonic boom.
So he looked up and he saw it
and he saw it hit right here.
>> The disc clips the mesa right across the
road from his ranch, throwing sparks
down the cliff face and starting to
wobble. Then it somehow restabilizes
temporarily, but continues to lose
altitude, dropping north toward Hark
[music] Canyon. The streak that the
craft left on the cliff can still be
seen there [music] to this day. And
Scott Ramsay put himself in serious
danger just to find this [music] mark.
If you want to, you can hang by one hand
and break pretend you have a broken rib.
>> Oh, you're there. Here. Go down. Come
down here.
>> It would be more interesting to just
grab like a scoop of whatever's in that
groove.
>> My concern from a scientific point,
would you contaminate the groove with
whatever you're doing? If no one else is
doing anything, you might as well just
grab a sample and have it tested.
>> Whatever he just saw flying [music]
across the sky, he knew exactly who to
call.
>> He calls the Air Force and he [music]
says, "Hey, one of your planes crashed
over here. You need to come get it."
>> It takes three tries before anyone at
Kirtland Air Force Base in Albuquerque
takes Val seriously.
>> So, he goes back down to Merkantile.
Hey, I told you one of your planes had
crashed over here. And uh and that's
when everything got started.
>> About 8 miles away, 19-year-old oil
field worker Doug Noland is picking up
his supervisor, Bill Ferguson. They work
for El Paso Natural Gas.
>> Morning, Fergie.
>> Change of plans.
>> We're not going south.
>> Brush fire out on Hart Canyon near the
tanks.
>> How near?
>> Near enough. I'd like to be there
already.
>> Brush fires around oil tanks are not a
good thing.
The oil tanks are fine.
>> Then what the hell are they looking at?
>> Doug and Bill crest the rim of the mesa.
And there it is.
A flying saucer 100 ft across. What
looks like dull aluminum just sitting
there in dirt with no stands or landing
gear resting on its belly at a slight
12° tilt. It's completely seamless with
no rivets, bolts, or weld marks. It
looked like a very gentle landing that
the craft was not dented, torn up,
anything like that.
>> When you look at exactly which direction
and how it traveled, it was due north
exactly.
And this is actually due north exactly
from the Archeletta Ranch. So, it would
be much easier to just land here almost.
And as we've talked about, it was more
of a soft landing than a crash.
>> Meanwhile, coming up the canyon road is
Manuel Sandival, our cop from Cuba, New
Mexico. He spots the work trucks parked
at the base of the mesa. So, he starts
climbing up the hillside. Around the
same time, two ranchers pull up, an
older couple, Mr. and Mrs. Knight.
5 miles away in Cedar Hill, 20-some
yearear-old Ken Farley is picking up his
friend. He had just come back from
visiting an aunt in Durango, Colorado.
And now [music] the two were about to
hit the road for San Diego to see some
friends. There's been trucks going up
that old road all morning. Police car
went up, too. Somebody might be hurt out
there. Let's go.
Praise God.
>> I I said to Doug, "Well, how many people
can you identify?" And he went through
the list. He said, "But there was a
group of guys, two or maybe three on the
western side of the mesa that didn't
really have a lot to do with us." Well,
that was Ken Farley and his buddy.
50 years later, dying of a lung disease
in Phoenix, [music] Ken Farley could
still describe the craft in perfect
detail. At the end, he said, "And around
the center section of the craft, there
were three brass or copper or gold lines
that ran all the way around it."
Well, that fit perfect with Doug Nolan.
And then all of a sudden, Doug, for
reasons I deeply respect, climbs on top
of it.
Mrs. Knight isn't too [music] thrilled
about that.
>> Get down off of that thing. You don't
know what it is.
>> Decades later, Doug still remembered
Mrs. Knight, giving them hell about
getting near that damn saucer.
>> Doug, not being that [music] familiar
with all the locals, I said, "How did
you know the Knights? Why didn't uh they
were telling us to stay the hell away
from the craft?" And I asked Bill
Ferguson, "Who are they?" Bill Ferguson
said, "Well, they're telling us to stay
away from the craft. They're ranchers
out here, so they know it doesn't belong
here." Up on the hull, Doug and Bill
study what look like port holes around
the dome of the craft. From a distance,
they look like mirrors. Then they spot a
perfectly round hole in one of them,
about the size of a quarter punched
clean through the glass. Doug was
specific about that hole for the rest of
his life. Doug puts his eye in the
punctured port hole. He sees two small
figures slumped over a panel.
Fergie,
>> what?
>> There's people in it.
Then Bill grabs a fire pole and pokes it
through the hole in the port hole.
>> Sir,
>> trying to nudge awake the craft's
[music] inhabitants.
He must have hit a button or triggered
something because [music] at that exact
moment,
a hatch door from the belly of the craft
drops open with the whole gang watching.
For a second, no one moves.
According to Doug, he and Bill enter the
craft.
The interior is clean with nothing
burned or damaged. They find the two
figures still slumped over the control
panel, both wearing one-piece blue suits
with no insignas, and they're small,
only 3 to 4 ft tall. Then Doug hears
someone shouting from the upper deck of
the craft.
Most reports say there were 14 to 16 of
them
all charred or burned in the same blue
jumpsuits.
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today's episode.
Most reports say there were 14 to 16
[music] of them,
all charred or burned in the same blue
jumpsuits.
My only theory, and that's all it is, is
perhaps that whole
uh like I said earlier, may have been a
a a weapon, a 50 caliber rifle, machine
gun or whatever when it was flying over
Los Alamos, and maybe mass
decompression, possibly some type of gas
within the chamber that as soon as it
was breached by a spark would ignite
some type of instant explosion that just
like at the same time that, you know, or
maybe electromagnetic damage before they
understood how to describe, you know,
that.
>> Sure. Yeah. Or electrical charge or
something.
>> Electrical charge.
>> Meanwhile, Baptist minister Solon Brown
is cruising down the highway outside
Aztec when he sees the mass of cars at
Hart Canyon. He was a roaming Baptist
minister that was in charge of many
churches. And he went out there to open
up the First Baptist Church in Manose,
Colorado, which is maybe 40-minute drive
from the crash site. He pulls over.
Solon walks up to the opening of the
saucer and leans in,
but doesn't go inside.
Years later, he said he saw a few of the
beings, maybe three, slumped over some
kind of table or panel. An account
that's notably consistent with all of
the others. And he was shocked that they
were so child that not really the
typical alien described to us. They were
more childlike. No hair, one piece blue
jumpsuits, no insignias, no anything to
give rank, serial number. Then the group
sees something that's almost as strange
and futuristic as a flying saucer, a
helicopter.
I think Ken was the first one to tell me
about the helicopter. He said all of a
sudden a very small helicopter showed up
and kind of circled around the crash
site, then took off to the northeast.
They all met seeing the helicopter. I
mean, that was one very consistent
story. And Doug said, "I didn't know
what was more spectacular." this disc
laying on the mace or a helicopter. And
I said, "What are you talking about?"
Well, helicopters just came out in 48.
>> In 1948, most people had never seen one
in real life. And now here's one
circling right over their heads.
>> But it just over the years, the
consistency in the story, what the craft
looked like, they all talked about the
hole in the port hole.
They all talked about the about the same
time the military showed up.
The rest of the story sounds like the
familiar UFO crash retrieval playbook.
The military swarms the scene, seals it
off from the public, and threatens the
witnesses to keep quiet.
They all agree that nobody had any
insignas to identify who they were. Not
Army, Marine Corps, whatever. The guys
in the military were not young guys.
Most look like they're in their 30s or
[music] 40s. Mature, gruff, and
extremely well-trained, moving precisely
and deliberately. [music]
Doug laughed and said it was like a
bunch of drill sergeants, you know,
talking to you [music] at the same time.
>> And they seem to know exactly how to
secure a site and pull off a recovery.
Roswell was less than a year earlier,
and everyone knows how badly they
botched that operation. But this time
the military knew exactly [music] what
it was doing.
>> Oh yeah. They learned a lot in eight
months. Roswell they did a press
release, put it on the front page of the
paper and then of course came up and
denied it and came up with a weather
balloon theory after that. Now Aztec was
uh welloiled.
>> You weren't out here today. There's
nothing out here. [music] There never
was.
>> When the military tells Ken to beat it,
he doesn't listen. Uh, [music] he
mouththed off and said, "You guys don't
have any jurisdiction, and I'm not in
the military. You can't tell me what to
do." And I think he got the butt of a
gun in his gut for talking that way.
>> By this time, the military had started
pulling bodies out. There were 14 to 16
bodies at the crash site. And one of the
military members said, "Well, you know,
basically, father, we're glad you're
here.
>> Can you give these bodies last rights?"
>> And he said, "Well, I'm not Catholic.
I'm a Baptist preacher, but I'd be more
than happy to say a prayer over him."
And by the way, what happened? And they
said, "We we really can't get into
details.
May your souls find the peace they
deserve and rest in eternal peace."
>> And then was told to leave, which he
did. And the bodies, if they didn't look
like what you'd typically expect in an
alien, you know, some of the aliens that
we see depicted, grays and stuff are
childlike. What What exactly did they
look like?
>> Children.
>> By midm morning, the military pretty
much owns that messa. No one can get
through.
Two girls on horseback try to pass but
are stopped by plain closed men standing
besides a parked jeep. A very friendly,
very casually dressed uh said, "Girls,
I'm I'm sorry you can't go any further.
>> There's a situation up the road. It
isn't safe. Go on home. Go on now."
>> So, I'm hearing the story and I'm
[music] thinking, "God, what a good
memory."
And I said,
and she's senior to my age. And I
[music] said, "I I got to ask,
how do you know it was March 25th?" And
she said, "Cuz it was my birthday."
Later that night, Solon Brown is in the
living room of Bruce Ser, a deacon with
whom he is discussing plans for building
a church.
Solon tells him about the profound
experience.
>> You don't believe me?
>> I believe you. I'm sitting here in shock
is all.
>> Solon breaks down and cries. 60 years
later, Bruce Seer's son would tell Scott
Ramsay why he never forgot that night.
It was the first time that he'd ever
seen a grown man cry.
For the weeks following the crash, the
military camps out at the Mesa.
Scientists are brought in to study the
craft. When this group was originally
brought out to the crash site, they
spent the [music] first two days hanging
back and waving geer counters at it.
They were worried about radiation.
Sounds like a group that might have been
briefed on UFOs, which are notorious for
emitting radiation.
They enter further and observe strange
hieroglyphic symbols.
They can't stay inside the craft for
longer [music] than 20 minutes at a time
because some negative energy overcomes
them.
a gloomy feeling of doom that witnesses
like Bob Lazar would describe years
[music] later. It's a real ominous,
creepy feeling. And a lot of it is
because of the black just it doesn't it
doesn't look right.
There was also [music] a nurse that um
checked each one of the scientists
for the length of [music] time that they
would be in the craft because they
became sick to their stomach if they
were in more than 20 minutes. The
Ramsies would later place nine
scientists in total on that messa. More
on exactly how they got there later, but
every name on their list traces [music]
back to the same wartime science network
run by one man, Vanavar Bush, which
means whoever was making these calls
wasn't improvising. And they probably
[music] came from the deepest part of
America's nuclear program.
>> So, I mean, 100 ft. Have you guys
measured out how big 100 ft would have
been? Like, what's the size? I'm bad
with like scale. Well, that's
>> 100 yards. So, a third of a football
field.
>> Yeah. Again, I'm Canadian. You need to
>> 33 m.
>> Yeah. [laughter]
>> 33 m.
>> Okay. Yeah. Wow. Okay. So, like from
there to like there pretty much.
>> Yeah.
>> That's massive.
>> Then it's time to transfer the craft out
of there. A bulldozer cuts a new road up
to the mesa, clearing pinion trees as it
climbs.
And while all of this is happening, a
spring storm moves across the mesa.
Snow blows sideways through the site. It
gathers on the ground, on the rocks, but
not on the craft. Snow strikes the
saucer and disappears. Nothing
accumulates. That detail comes from a
young airman on perimeter security named
Donald Bass. He was flown up from
Roswell and driven in from Durango and
he slept in the bed of a truck for 2
weeks while the recovery took place. At
the top, crews pour a concrete slab and
set rebar into the wet foundation. Two
cranes work in tandem over the saucer. A
gear ring at its base is removed.
>> Look at this. Is this the crane spot?
>> Oh, yeah.
>> Concrete slab.
>> No way. It used to be in perfect
condition, but we have souvenir hunters.
That's what they do. They come out here
and bust it up with the rocks, take
home.
>> So, this is a poured concrete.
Why would you pour concrete out here?
>> If you're going to drag an 100 ft in
diameter craft off a messa with a crane,
you need solid footing. And silt isn't
[music] solid. So, somewhere out here in
1948, someone in a hurry [music] mixed
concrete. And concrete is hard to clean
up. Debunkers called this concrete slab
an oil well cap. But there's an oil well
cap that's next [music] to the site and
it's dramatically bigger than this
concrete slab.
>> I don't know if you just want to grab a
picture of that. That's like a medium to
large one there. That's crazy.
>> Instead, this thing looks like it was
built bespoke [music] and ad hoc to drag
a craft out of the area. When I asked
Scott and Suzanne where that whole oil
well cap cover story came from, they
said it was a famous debunker named Carl
Flock. Flock is a self-reported former
CIA agent. So, I'll let you come to your
own conclusions there.
Then, something called a dragon wagon
begins backing its way up the newly cut
road. This was a heavyduty tank
transport that the army used during
World War II. They on the back of the
dragon wagon had two stabilizing
footers. When they tried to put the arms
down, it [music] just kept going into
the silk. Put something heavy under it,
something solid.
>> How do you take a craft that big, move
it down a steep terrain, and then
[music] get it out of there?
Frank Scully who wrote Behind the Flying
Saucers
talked about the craft came apart in
sections. So if we can take the [music]
craft and take it in reasonable pieces,
getting it out of there would require
one thing and that was something Suzanne
didn't want to hear.
But reenacting it. How much did you
spend on reenacting the crash retrieval
for the Aztec craft?
>> In excess of $14,000 that week.
>> Scott actually tracked down an Air Force
officer who claims that he helped them
make the entire Aztec retrieval team
disappear, at least on paper. In their
earlier books, the Ramsies [music]
pudonomously called him George. 200
people worked that recovery and that he
was in charge of updating their
personnel records daily [music] for 2
weeks, making it look like the retrieval
team in Aztec wasn't actually an Aztec
at all. After this interview, they were
finally able to release his real name,
Tech Sergeant Dick Harper. [music]
He said, "I was never at the crash
site." He said, "My job was basically
keeping personnel records." A little
more detail. What's that mean? He said,
"Well, roughly [music] 200 people were
involved in the whole Aztec recovery, so
I kept 200 personnel records to make
sure nobody was ever really an Aztec." I
said, "Well, can I have more detail on
that?" He said, "Well, let's just say
that week that you may have been there
or the twoe operation you were there,
I'd have you at McDill and then I'd have
you sprain an ankle playing volleyball
and then I'd have you in the infirmary
for a few days. So if you ever come
public and talk about it, I can the Air
Force can go, "Well, that's not true.
You were at McDill that week or that
month or that year or whatever." And he
said, "That was my full-time job." He
said, "I did see intel briefings on it
and I saw black and white photos of it."
And he said, "And it was a very large
craft."
The evidence that something crashed at
Aztec is overwhelming. Even the trees at
the Heart Canyon crash site are spled
outwards as if a craft was dragged
through [music] a very specific path.
>> Back when I first started talking to
Bill, Bill Steyman, he brought up an
interesting point.
We're comparing notes about the crash
site. Once we confirmed we were both at
the same site [music]
and Bill said, "You know, if they drag
that thing up to the dragon wagon,
they use [music] soft trees to do it
over. These aren't going to hurt
anything." And he said, "Notice they're
all spled to the northeast." I said,
"You know, Bill, I noticed a lot of
damage to trees. I never noticed they
were spled to the northeast."
And uh as we walk back to the car,
they're all laid down. My joke is they
don't have hurricanes here like we have
in North Carolina and something
laid them all down.
So they managed to get the craft out,
but the mesa was a wreck. Drag marks,
broken and bent trees, [music]
and a path of destruction pointing in
one direction. If you're running the
most secretive recovery in the country,
that's a loose end. You don't want to
leave. It's not enough to just remove
the craft. You have to fix the scene.
And in 1999, a man who claims he was
sent to the crash site to fix it, to
paper it over for the government wrote
Scott a letter. His name is Fred Reed.
Um, all we brought today was a letter he
wrote me in 99, [music] but we have
another letter he wrote afterwards. I
thought they were together. And this is
the original. It's quite interesting.
Dated March 27th, 1999. And was he on
the crash retrieval team for tech?
>> No, he came the craft was gone.
Everything was gone. They came basically
to rellandscape the the uh mesa. It was
a basically not a typical crash [music]
site that they cleaned up before, but it
looked like a lot of heavy equipment had
gone in there. But I thought it was
interesting. He said that they uh this
was not the first site they [music]
cleaned up. But years later, he learned
that it was a flying saucer.
>> Wow. So,
>> and their focus was to try and make it
appear as if nothing happened there.
>> Problem is that later on we [music]
uh had the opportunity to see an aerial
view and you can actually see how the
>> they're very there's a section they're
very symmetrical.
>> They're they're in lines and of course
nature organic is random. It's not in a
line. So,
>> but these are in line perfect lines.
Yeah.
>> I'm guessing what goes through my mind
is that you can just imagine someone
down there, you're not looking from an
aerial view and [music] thinking, well,
we just got to fill in this space and
you just start putting them in. And of
course, because we [music] landscape our
houses, we do it in lines. That's
probably, you know,
>> naturally where their mind would go
without thinking we're trying to look
like nature.
>> Yeah. They're not trying to cover up a
craft. That's exactly it. That's exactly
it.
Reed had actually cleaned [music] up
other crash sites involving secret
prototype aircraft. And no matter how
thorough the recovery, something was
always left behind. A fragment of metal,
a piece of plexiglass, some trace of
what happened. But at Hart Canyon, there
was nothing. It was like the site had
already been scrubbed abnormally clean.
But in 1999, the Ramsies did actually
find something. what looks like a little
polished marble, totally out of place.
When they showed me it, I encouraged
them to send it out to the [music] lab
for testing. They agreed, and we'll show
you those test results at the end of
this episode.
18 or so people stood up there that
morning. Every one of them went home and
said nothing. So, why, after so many
corroborating eyewitnesses, does Aztec
carry this stigma? Why was this thing
branded a hoax?
Now begins part two of our story. The
makings of a hoax.
The case against Aztec and the reason
Wikipedia lists it as a hoax all starts
with one man, Frank Scully.
>> So when people [music] say, "Oh, he's
just a writer for variety." They're
missing the whole point. That that's
almost like a discredit for the [music]
depth and the knowledge that he had.
Scully was one of the most interesting
men in American journalism. Colombia
trained one leg, one lung. He'd
ghostwritten [music]
for the great George Bernard Shaw.
Behind the flying saucers was published
[music] in 1950. And as you know, it was
the first public account of the Aztec
event. He was approached by Silus Newton
and Leo Gaybower that said, "We want you
to meet with a scientist that has an
[music] interesting story to tell you
and we feel the story is going to break,
but these scientists wanted to break
through you."
There were eight scientists. One died
and they had to replace him. So when
you're talking how many scientists were
involved coming forward, it was a total
of nine. They met in the Mojave Desert
with one of them and he starts to tell
Frank this amazing story about a flying
saucer recovery. I think they
embellished a little bit of the
intensity and the urgency of getting the
story out. And the reason being I think
they were afraid the story was going to
get buried so deep that nobody would
know about it. And the technology on
that craft apparently was something that
boggled their mind.
Behind the Flying Saucer was one of the
first books ever to claim that the US
government had recovered a crashed alien
spacecraft. This is well before we knew
anything about Roswell when that came
out years later in 1979. And he cast the
whole story as a coverup with the
military hiding the discovery to prevent
panic and keep the technology secret.
These are now motivations we can now
confidently attribute to the US
government at the time when it comes to
UFOs. If you just look at documents like
the Robertson memo, at first the book
was a hit. But after that, the smear
campaign ensued and it went up in
flames. And for the next 70 plus years,
Scully had been reduced to a gullible
Hollywood gossip columnist [music]
tricked into a story by two conmen. But
Frank Scully wasn't just a tabloid guy
who printed [music] nonsense. The man
was a vault. He was the kind of guy
people trusted with their [music]
deepest secrets. He never released the
scientist's names. He never released
anything and he could have. He was just
sworn [music] to secrecy upon himself
and went to his deathbed with it. I
think it was a very honorable man. Years
after publishing behind the flying
[music] saucers, he was knited by Pope
Pius I 12th and inducted into the
pontipical order of St. Gregory the
Great. Not [music] exactly the resume of
a guy who was universally regarded as a
joke.
The man who torched his reputation along
with Gay Bowers and Newton's and helped
bury Aztec for over 70 years was another
writer. One who wanted the story for
himself. Didn't get it and held one hell
of a grudge. And worse, he had the
money, time, and [music] connections to
do something about it. JP Khan was a
journalist at the San Francisco
Chronicle and an ambitious writer who
believed that the [music] Aztec crash
story could be one of the biggest in the
country. When the only outlet of the
story was Frank Scully's variety, Khan
decided he was the man to turn that
[music] story into a book. He approached
Scully and offered him $10,000 for the
rights to [music] the story, but Scully
refused.
Scully proceeds and writes it. And JP
Khan was so embarrassed that that
telling everyone that he was going to be
able to do it that he decides that I
have some time on my hands and I will go
ahead and and discredit
Scott.
>> Dilly Khan was JP Khan. I mean really he
was the con artist.
>> Well, he was also somehow connected
[music] with Jay Edgar Huber who
>> very well. We know, I mean, now it's the
consensus in America that Jed Garoover
was systematically blackmailing uh
people who sought truth and wanted good
things to happen in our country. JP Khan
then went after Scully sources and
painted them as conmen and fraudsters,
starting with Silus Newton. Silus M.
Newton was an oil man and not a small
one. He then became a working geoysicist
who found oil for a living. He was
obsessed with magnetism, [music] not
just in the context of finding oil. He
thought that its principles would
revolutionize flight and energy.
>> Very, very successful, very wealthy. In
1950, according to the FBI, is worth $20
million.
>> He was well off, well connected, and
well within earshot of the whole Aztec
story given his oil prospecting ventures
in the area. But Khan had his
connections as well. On April 25th,
1951, he had the California Attorney
General's office contact the FBI to look
into Newton, questioning his claims of
conducting secret government research
and accusing him of being in on a hoax.
But Khan was probably just feeding the
FBI information about Silus Newton the
whole time. Remember Jay Edgar Hoover
ran the FBI and he and Khan were
friends. So we decided to go through the
FBI's extensive files on Silus Newton.
We are writing to you because stated
blank a name stated that a complete
investigation of Newton has been made
[music] by your bureau. I wonder if
that's JP Khan. Presumably this
investigation has confirmed his cryptic
illusions to his being engaged in
governmental research of a secret
nature. Other circumstances coming to
our attention in light of his criminal
record indicate to us that Newton is
engaged in the per perpetration of a
oaks or swindle of large proportions. So
before Khan had even come into the
picture, the FBI had already dug into
Newton's [music] background. A document
from July 1st, 1941 mentions, he appears
to be a good American citizen, has no
accent in his speech, and has never made
an unamerican or disloyal or
unsympathetic [music]
remarks. As the Rams point out in their
book, It came to Earth at Aztec. It
almost seems like Newton was being
vetted for something. Maybe he was being
screened for some kind of sensitive
wartime project. Which makes me wonder
at one point maybe he worked with secret
government technology because of his
geoysical services, you know, record and
understanding of geomagnetism.
There's probably some overlap between
that and [music] UFO research.
>> Oh, I'm sure.
>> And what about Leo Gayower, Silus
Newton's colleague?
They make out Leo Gay Bower as a radio
used radio parts sales [music] guy. What
sort of expertise did he have? Radio. A
pretty broad
of interest. Electromagnetism was one of
them.
>> And like Newton, Gabe Bower already had
one hell of an FBI file. Absolutely
massive. And stretching back to years
before Aztec in 1943,
the War Department is asking the FBI to
clear him. So, I think he worked on some
kind of topshelf project.
>> In fact, as early as 1942 with at least
one memo about him reaching J. Edgar
Hoover himself. His daughter even told
the Ramsies that agents used to follow
her and her sister to school. That is a
ridiculous amount of attention and
manpower to spend on a guy that's just a
hoaxer. And Gay Bower's FBI file is
still heavily redacted to this day. Why
would you ever redact and censor FBI
files on someone who is just a petty con
man? It makes literally no sense. There
is clearly something more to the story
and some reason that the government and
Jay Edgar Hoover's FBI wanted to paint
Newton and Gaybower as frauds.
The fraud case finally landed in 1953.
The alleged victim was a Denver
businessman named Herman Flater who'd
invested in Newton's oil ventures and in
a gadget called the Doodlebug, a device
that Newton claimed could detect [music]
oil and gas underground. A Herman Flater
from Denver had invested in the
Doodlebug [music] technology. They were
arrested for taking stolen property
across state line. A [music] check from
an investor.
>> Sounds like they were targeted. Well,
they went through seven judges and seven
judges said, "Are you kidding me?" "No,
I'm not going to hear this case." So
then they asked the FBI, "Are you
bringing the [music] doodle bug that you
confiscated to court? We want to operate
it and show the court how it operates."
So they said yes. [music] And they
showed up with this horrible wooden box
with uh Scully actually holding the real
one. And uh the defense attorney said,
"That's that we've never even seen that
before. It was made from old military
radio parts. [music]
The the judge was like, "No, no, there
there's no no evidence will be allowed
to help you. It's going to help the FBI.
We're going to prosecute Silus Newton
and Gaybar." So, it was a kangaroo court
at [music] best.
>> But it doesn't seem like Flater came
forward on his own. He might have been
talked into it
>> cuz it was Khan that contacted Flater.
Khan seems like the guy who's pushing
Jared Ghuber. Yep. Basically to uh you
know take them through this kangaroo
court and and talk about the checks
crossing state lines which is
ridiculous. [music]
And then also he's pushing Flater to
>> prosecute them on the on the dut. So JP
Khan feels like the most important node
of basically persecution when it comes
to him. Was there did we have we
uncovered any sort of intelligence ties
when it comes to JV?
>> Well he was in the air force. Okay,
that's important.
>> So, what if Gay Bower and Newton were
right all along? What if they [music]
were actually set up? And what if the
fraud case that took them down and
buried Aztec along [music] with them was
actually part of a sophisticated
disinformation campaign.
But the point is, the reverberations of
the smear campaign spread to [music]
anyone who touched the case.
Researchers, writers, scientists, a
millionaire tycoon. It was universally
radioactive.
The Aztec event was so radioactive, no
one wanted to touch it, let alone
investigated. When I publicly said I was
starting to explore the case, these were
DMs I got from a supposedly experienced
UFO researcher.
Recovery at Heart Canyon. on or about
this site. On March 25th, 1948, a
spacecraft of origins unknown crashed or
landed on this mea. Most historic sites
get markers. But after several decades
of Aztec being reduced to nothing more
than folklore, it was clear no one was
ever going to put one here. So, in 2007,
Suzanne and Scott fixed the record
themselves by bolting a plaque to the
mesa, signed and dated.
I think the the way the government went
about Aztec
of really making sure people were
discredited, really making sure anybody
that went near it, uh they they even
went after Scully. It didn't work. They
went after him. But I think it was
possibly because this craft, by all
reports, was intact. If the government
really recovered an intact craft, the
most valuable thing inside it probably
wasn't the bodies. It was the technology
that made it fly. So naturally, you'd
call in the best [music] scientists you
have.
George Kohler sold radio advertising for
the Denver station KM YR and at the time
he was living in Silus Newton's [music]
house when students at the University of
Denver wanted to look for someone to
lecture about flying saucers. One of the
science professors, Francis Broman,
turned to Ker to find them an expert.
[music] According to the Rams, Kler
initially lined up Dr. John Torrance
Tate, who they ID as one of the
scientists behind the mysterious Dr. G.
But with the Air Force trying to hunt
down the identities of the scientists
[music] connected to Aztec, Tate thought
stepping onto a public stage was too
dangerous. So the lecture fell to Kohler
himself. But then he backed out just for
Silus Newton to finally pick up the
baton. On March 8th, 1950, Newton took
the stage as [music] the mysterious
scientist X. His speech opened with a
bombshell. Flying saucers were real, and
someone had already landed on Earth.
>> Within 500 m of the city of Denver,
there settled gently to Earth a round
object which had already been identified
as being a flying saucer. And if I may
venture venture the observation,
unquestionably they are interested in
[music] our atomic research.
>> Newton didn't reveal the exact
locations, but he left Aztec's
fingerprints all over the story. A
seamless craft measuring 99.99
ft in diameter and found with 16 charred
crew members. This saucer was 99
and 9900s
in diameter.
We have decided that there is a reason
all the measurements of this ship broken
down total nine.
>> Sound familiar? If you read Frank
Skully's book, it literally says the
craft operates on the principle of nine.
But the similarities don't stop there.
In Newton's lecture, when covering how
the flying saucers got here, he says
they don't travel the way aircrafts move
through the sky. Instead, they move
along magnetic lines of force. [music]
To demonstrate how powerful these forces
could be, Newton brought up Captain
Thomas Mantel, the pilot who was killed
in 1948 while chasing a UFO near Fort
Knox. Newton says that the saucer
disintegrated Mantel's plane by
disrupting the magnetic forces [music]
holding it together.
>> Didn't say it had been blown out of the
air and then crashed and it said it
disintegrated.
Now we happen to know
that that can be done magnetically.
That ship and the others that are flying
fly on magnetic lines of force. Now
these magnetic lines of force
know no barrier.
The eternally present
everything that exists on this planet
maintains its form and shape in its
being by reason of magnetic lines of
force.
>> He refers to the earth itself as a giant
magnet held in place by magnetic [music]
forces. This is literally true and it's
before we discovered the Van Allen belt.
The Earth is literally held together by
a magneettosphere. In Newton's belief,
[music]
instead of burning fuel, the saucers
could lock onto those magnetic lines and
ride them almost the way a train rides
rails. Except the rails are invisible.
The lecture lasted about an hour before
Coler escorted Newton out, saying he had
a plane to catch. But Newton wasn't the
only one moving fast. Two hours after
the lecture ended, Air Force
investigators had shown up and were
questioning students for clues about
Scientist X's identity. They were so
desperate that when they heard that
scientist X had a plane to catch, they
even pulled the passenger manifests for
commercial flights leaving Denver. It
never dawned on them that [music]
scientist X was Newton and that Newton
was living right there in the city under
the same roof as Coler. And before long,
two Office of Special Investigation
agents, Hansen and Unger, showed up at
his radio station.
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Two hours after the lecture ended, Air
Force investigators had shown up and
were questioning students for clues
about Scientist X's identity. They were
so desperate that when they heard that
Scientist X had a plane to catch, they
even pulled the passenger manifests for
commercial flights leaving Denver. It
never dawned on them that scientist X
was Newton and that Newton was living
right there in the city under the same
roof as Kohler. And before long, two
Office of Special Investigation agents,
Hansen and Unger, showed up at his radio
station
and want to have the whole breakdown of
who told you about this story, who else
was at the university,
what do you know about it, who told you,
and what Coler did as they were going
into the recording room, he told the
technician, "Record this."
>> Wow.
[music] The agents weren't just
interested in Coler's thoughts on flying
saucers. They wanted his sources. Who
were they? What were these strange
gadgets he supposedly knew all about?
And most importantly, did any of his
sources have connections to the
government? Ker refused to give them a
single name. The information it was told
to me as a story. However, the names
where I got it from was entrusted to me
as a confidency
and I have no no desire
to jeopardize that confidence in any
way, nor will I.
>> Keep in mind, Coler knows it's being
taped, so you can you can kind of bait
him a little bit.
>> In fact, he turned the questioning back
on the agents, pressing them on why the
government wouldn't release what it knew
about UFOs. I believe that the
government is the only one that should
have any answers to to [music] this
story. And I believe the government is
making a huge mistake in not giving the
[music] true facts about the goddamn
thing as they know it. Whether Coler was
intentionally baiting the agents or not,
the Air Force seems weirdly territorial
over a phenomenon that wasn't supposed
to exist. And they clearly weren't
dismissing scientist X's lecture out of
hand. Which brings us back to the
scientists who were first in line to
give that famous Denver lecture before
Newton took the stage. One of the Dr.
G's, Dr. [music] John Torrance Tate.
>> Jonathan Torrance Tate was an amazing
guy. Um I don't know why over the years
his name kept popping up in Aztec and I
don't mean books, I mean just documents.
And then when we were talking to Texas
Instruments, they brought them up. Well,
have you looked into Jonathan Torrren's
Tate? Who's he?
>> Tate was the kind of top tier mind whose
background in physics, magnetism, and
secret military research made him just
the kind of man the government would
trust with a flying saucer.
Long story short, we flew to Minneapolis
and got a meeting at the University of
Minnesota
in their archives and they were very
kind, very helpful and they have all
they have archived all his records and
there were boxes that were sealed uh
around 1950 right at the time of his
death. He died ever looked at him
>> looked at him ever. So then it shows in
the records that he was in the southwest
about the time of
>> in March of 48.
>> Yeah.
>> And he comes back and this is where he
calls this press conference. It wasn't
press it was really like a a science. It
was always the science came and and
celebrated it. And he said it has
changed my life.
>> And in that he talked about technology.
I I saw while on this trip, we will
never have to worry about energy. That's
already been figured out. We'll never
have to figure uh worry about uh food.
Uh food production will not be
threatened. Uh pollution can be solved,
health problems can be solved. He was
going down this wish list that any
scientist would love to be able to say.
He says we have this technology now. And
he worked closely with Vanavar Bush.
>> Well, he worked for him.
>> Worked for him and Vanavar Bush ran all
of you know American fally funded
science efforts and research at the
highest level
>> and to that exactly in that nature um
through these records what we
consistently saw was that
Dr. Tate was a very modest man. He
didn't want any attention given to
himself. And
what we saw was that if you watched his
pattern of life all the way,
>> he had focused on the war effort
[snorts]
>> whether it was, you know, whatever war
effort
>> after that day that was no longer. He
was much more philanthropic and just
really focused on human beings. And that
was a very powerful powerful experience
for us to see that mark change. Bam.
Right after that trip,
>> that's amazing.
>> Something important happened on that
trip.
>> Something important happened on that
trip.
>> Completely
>> paradigm shifting, life changing for
this man.
>> And he thought it was it merited at
least that he shared that with all the
colleagues that it was that important.
>> That's right.
>> So, the Rams believed that Tate would be
the perfect head scientist behind
Scully's mysterious Dr. G.
Unfortunately, Tate died on May 27th,
1950, months before Scully's book hit
bookstores. But right after the book was
released, Scully gave a radio interview
where he was asked about Dr. G directly.
Scully's being interviewed about Dr. G.
He said, "What point do you think we
could get Dr. G on the radio or learn
more about it?" And Scully says, "Oh,
that won't be possible. Uh, we uh what
was the He's no longer available." M
>> that was right after Tate died.
>> Interesting.
>> Chicago radio station. After Tate dies,
um they probably injected another
scientist because we've come up with
nine. And what we did was we took
everything Frank Scully said in the book
about these amazing scientists and with
the help of Texas Instruments, we
they're historical guy. We went through
and that's when we found Vander Bush's
group in World War II and we went down
each division and we went, "Oh my god,
>> that's one of Skully's guys. That's one
of Skully's guys." So here's who the
Rams believe made up the nineman
scientific brain trust, the collective
identity of Dr. G, Cecil Howard Green,
Patrick E. Hagerty, Richard C. Tolman,
John Eric Johnson, J. Clarence Carter,
Eugene McDermott, Henry Bates Peacock,
Otto Herman Arnold Schmidt, and of
course, John Torrance Tate.
There's also a 10th possible name, Carl
August Highland. If any of you knows any
of these people's descendants, please
reach out to this email,
usa.alchemy@gmail.com.
These were among the best scientists and
engineers connected to wartime research
in geoysics, magnetics, electronics,
radar and submarine detection. [music]
And many of them were connected directly
through the office of scientific
research and development or the OSRD.
This was nuclear godfather Vanavar
Bush's wartime science network. If you
needed research done in secret in the
[music] 1940s, these were the guys you
called. And six of the nine Dr. energy
scientists were directly connected
[music] to the founding of Texas
Instruments. Later known for its
calculators, Texas Instruments did some
of the most advanced research and
development in its day.
>> You think some of that tech might have
like leaked eventually into Texas
Instruments? You think Nick?
>> I wouldn't ever oppose that idea.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
Let's just speculate for a second and
say a UFO crashed over here and it was
brought to Wright Patterson. The United
States government looked at it said,
"Wow, there's some really cool
technology on this." I would think in a
very short time get that thing the hell
out of the government's hands. The
government would want it out of their
hands.
>> Yeah.
>> And because if it's in the government
hands, it's subject to a bunch of legal
grabbings.
>> Yeah.
>> Congressional moves, Senate moves,
whatever. if it's in private hands. I
mean, hell, you know, somebody like GE
or
Lockheed, they could their corporate
attorneys could keep that lawsuit going
till we all retire and die. So, let's
say you find something that doesn't fit
the periodic table or the laws of
physics or [music] basic human sanity.
The basic playbook is if it's weird,
hide it. Once it's handed over to a
private [music] company, it can
essentially disappear. This idea of
anomalous tech retrieval and transfer
[music] to private corporations was
spearheaded by Philip J. Corso.
>> The the number one
was the integrated circuit. Number two
in importance was laser cuz I had some
laser instruments also. Then fiber
optics came out of this. The uh uh
imaging devices or night viewing devices
came from this. Some of the work we did
electromagnetism and the ICBMs
and uh came from this.
>> If any of this is true and Dr. G's
scientists actually did work directly
for Vanavar Bush, it gives Vanavar
Bush's essay the endless frontier a
whole new meaning. Essentially, instead
of all technology working forwards, a
lot of it is working backwards.
Backwards from an end state of
interstellar electromagnetic based
travel. And these extremely advanced
technologies can be derivative
technologies that just look [music] kind
of alien, but they're just kind of
functional in prosaic use cases. A
candidate for this would be [music]
fiber optics. But before any exotic
technology is handed over to a private
corporation, someone still has to secure
the UFO crash site, calm the witnesses,
[music]
and scoop up whatever wormhold its way
here or fell from the sky. We now know
due to going through documents [music]
firsthand with the Ramsies ourselves
that the Air Force had all sorts of
names for UFOs at the time and they hid
their crash retrieval [music] programs
in very cheeky ways. The 4602
in their monthly report had a UFO B
section in it where they talked about
how many UFOs uh were seen or whatever
reported but that was all internally
and as you and I were kind of chuckling
about you know most months they could
identify 90%.
>> Yep.
>> We don't want to know about those. Give
us the other 10%. You know,
>> here we have the the squadron history of
the 4602 division of the air
intelligence service squadron. Anything
of note in this document?
>> I mean, they mention how their whole
role is to sort of suppress this in the
public and says here reassuring the
public mind that no tangible evidence
existed to support the fears of an
invasion from outer space or that
radical technological advances and
developments by the enemy do not exist
was imperative. So, the real job of
4602D
wasn't exactly UFO hunting. Their
mission was to manage public perception,
keep the headlines boring, and convince
everyone that what they definitely saw,
they definitely didn't because nothing
calms the public like there's nothing to
see here. Some people might say, "You
guys have a mischaracterization of this
organization or this this unit." Um, but
a testament to how accurately you guys
have documented or gathered documents
and understand the 4602D and the 106 is
that at one of your symposiums, you ran
into a group of well-cut guys that you
didn't know where they came from. And it
turns out that they were actually part
of the modern 4602D and they were sent
to you by their command
>> to go learn about the 46.
>> They came.
>> Yeah, that was in Denver.
>> Yeah, they came only for that speech.
>> Wow.
>> Yeah. We similarly had something like
that happen in Baltimore too
>> with NSA
>> and they said we were sent by our cos to
uh attend your lecture based on how you
do research.
>> They wanted to know what we knew about
cryptologology
and how deep our research went.
>> Wow.
>> I felt honored.
>> Yeah.
>> So whatever the 4602D morphed into, they
never really stopped paying attention.
And as Scott mentioned, this group
wasn't around when Aztec happened in
1948. But according to another one of
Scott Ramsay's sources, the craft at
Aztec was first taken to Los Alamos. But
then it was taken to Wright airfield,
the epicenter of UFO lore, what became
Wright Patterson Air Force Base. You
guys have uncovered separate evidence
that [music] the Aztec crash
specifically made its way to right
airfield. Yes, we interviewed a
gentleman who worked for a um
instrumentation company, for the lack of
a better word, and that was owned by
Eastman Kodak. They sent him, so it' be
about a 4-year deal down to Dayton,
Ohio. He wasn't given a lot of detail.
>> We've qualified him and his family.
[music] So, we know where they lived. We
know where they worked. We know about
them personally. That's what sometimes
[music] takes our time to just qualify
those people so it isn't just someone
randomly saying something, [music]
>> right? He had read our second book and
called Suzanne as I was in route to
Savannah, Georgia on business. Suzanne
called me and said, "I hope it's okay."
I told him to call. It was pretty
[music] amazing story. And he called me
and the only thing I had to take notes
on was a Burger King bag, I think it is.
He said, "I'm pretty sure this is the
Aztec craft I worked on. I read your
book. Heard you on a couple of TV
things. [music] His deal at Wright
Patton was they were testing trying to
power up the craft. Wouldn't go into a
lot of detail on that, but he told me
the instruments they were working with
and that he [music] was proud to have
designed and created the second model
and even wrote the operator's manual,
which was true. He uh gave me some names
that were pretty impressive that worked
on the craft. One was an exopsi Lipish,
which was known for his uh work on
wingless aircraft.
Did he say anything about the craft?
>> Oh yeah, a lot about it. It was about uh
the right dimensions, 100 ft give or
take, a lenticular cross-section,
[music]
which Aztec was as you know, uh a dome
top, a small dome bottom. You said they
can't remember exactly, but you know, 18
ft thick at the widest would probably be
accurate. Some of the tests when they
were trying to power it up, it would
become translucent.
>> He said you could barely see the shapes
of the people in the craft.
>> Could they fly it at all?
>> No. [music] No.
>> And would they use high voltage by any
chance?
>> Yes. The whole thing was very high
voltage.
>> Interesting.
>> The craft going translucent was again
something later noted by Bob Lazar. And
you saw a translucent
like almost Korean looking symbols. Is
that right?
>> Yeah. I saw the wall become translucent
>> and at some point saw
some kind of what I would call [music]
symbols.
As they would get there and be going
down in it that there was a a rather
young nurse which they they got to know
her pretty good and got more story about
it. That's how they found out it came
from Aztec. She claimed it came from
Aztec
and uh you were only allowed in the
craft I I forget what it was 15 or 20
minutes no more. And he said that she
told him at the where they recovered the
craft scientists going into it if they
were in there any longer would come out
sick.
So there is a theory
that since the craft was wobbling
as it headed this direction and before
it hit the arch lea ranch and after that
that the vehicle might have gone into an
autopilot. But whether [music] this
crash was intentional or not, the
craft's final approach gave us another
clue to what might have happened on
board. [music]
There were new developments in radar at
the time that might have disrupted the
flight path of a UFO.
>> Well, we dug into that 1999. We came out
looking for radar bases. Looked every
high peak in this area all the way over
towards Santa Fe. We found the one in
Alvado and we hiked up there in about 2
ft of snow and there it was just like
they left it in 1957. [music]
We didn't know that at the time, but
when I went down to Maxwell, I showed
them the pictures and they said, "Boy,
it looks like a radar base, but we
didn't really have one in that area at
the time." Well, of course, the Air
Force couldn't find it cuz it's under
the Atomic Energy Commission. Cuz they
built it to protect Los Alamos. Even the
most advanced technology might be
vulnerable to something ordinary it
wasn't designed to encounter. For
example, let's say you travel back to
1848 with your 21st century starter
pack, your iPhone, your laptop, maybe a
smartwatch. At this point, you're
functionally a wizard carrying 178 years
of magic beyond anything else on Earth.
And then a wagon rolls over your laptop.
Someone fires a musk ball right at your
phone.
Both get destroyed immediately. Not
because their technology was more
advanced, but because a MacBook wasn't
designed to survive that kind of
encounter. So, you go back even further
and a caveman chucks your metagasses in
a puddle. And that's it. The sum total
of Silicon Valley technology gone.
Thanks to a guy who hasn't even invented
the wheel yet. Now, flip this to 1948 in
New Mexico. New high-powered radar
systems are sweeping the skies around
some of the most sensitive military and
nuclear sites on Earth, pulsing and
broadcasting microwave energy we didn't
fully understand yet. So, what if
something centuries ahead of us flies
directly through [music] that? Could an
unfamiliar form of energy interfere with
a craft that wasn't expecting to fly
through it, even if that craft was far
more advanced than anything we could
build at the time? Radar technology
wasn't originally designed to hurt
anything the same way a wagon wasn't
designed to hurt a laptop. But sometimes
worlds collide and remember advanced
doesn't mean invincible. And was this a
special type of radar?
>> It was it was they were testing it for
the Navy. It was called lashup.
Lashup later became adopted by the air
force as well. But these particular ones
uh had a basically over the horizon
view. So they'd be perfect for
battleships, aircraft carriers,
whatever. They could look much further
than a conventional radar.
>> So they were higher powered than
>> very highowered.
>> When Scott dug into it, he found out the
site was originally built in 1946 before
being moved in 1950. He also [music]
found two other bases close by, Mori
Arti and Continental, although those
weren't active until around 1950 or 51.
By then, all three had become part of a
system called Lashup. Lashup was a
state-of-the-art early morning air
defense network created from several
types of World War II radar technology.
>> Our best electronics engineers with
unlimited resources and only one
objective to develop radar superior
[music] to yours.
>> The radar used rotating antennas to
sweep the sky with pulses of invisible
microwave energy. It would then measure
the direction and distance of an
aircraft by listening out for the tiny
fraction of each pulse reflected back.
Lashup wasn't fully set up when Aztec
happened. So, if Scott's theory is right
that an earlier radar base was already
operating in March of 1948, could it
have played a role in Aztec? Do we know
what what uh Lashup sort of updated on
technically um visav like prior radar
systems? Well, the English, the British,
and the Americans at the end of World
War II were both working together, but
yet competing, and they were all they
were they were basically microwaved.
>> Mhm. The early ones. That's a lot of the
talk that we hear also about what's been
happening. You know, if you look at Jake
Barber, the psionics and all of that and
you know, the Northre Grumand
connection, they have in their
possession a lot of those microwave
cannons. A lot of those would seem to be
these large vehicles with these uh sort
of directional cannons on the back that
you know purportedly of once these
crafts are in a vicinity are able to
sort of take them down. HPMs which are
highowered microwave weapons are
deployed and they have an effect where
they can disrupt the uh the flight
pattern of the object and when it is an
object sometimes it's not and it can
result in that aircraft being forcibly
brought down.
>> Could something similar have happened
with radar at Aztec even if it was
unintentional? It's not like the radar's
microwave pulses could physically shove
a craft off course. But if the craft
depended on sensitive electromagnetic
controls or navigation sensors, it's
very possible that a burst of microwave
energy could have interfered and
overwhelmed the craft's systems. It's
probably no coincidence then [music]
that the most popular document on the
FBI's website is the notorious Hottle
memo written in 1950, the same year as
Scully's book. The document discusses
recovered flying saucers in New Mexico
that were specifically brought down due
to new high-powered radar installations
in the area messing with the craft's
flight mechanisms.
>> If they were doing that 80 years ago, I
mean, that tech's probably come a long
way today. You know, if they were
[music] even accidentally doing it
before, they've probably perfected it
now.
>> Probably. Yeah. The guys that were
involved in Manhattan were overlaying
the same ecosystem of secrecy in some of
the same ways to uh protect stuff that
they were protecting our nuclear
secrets. If you read the definition
of special nuclear material in the
public atomic energy act of 1954, it
basically states any material that
releases any kind of atomic energy
>> that would be [music] retrieved crash
material. So it's kind of a sneaky way.
>> No, it is. If you actually read the
Atomic Energy Act, if something is not a
nuke, but it has radiological energy
coming off it, you know, alpha, beta
decay, whatever,
>> same secrecy.
>> Same secrecy. [music]
>> David Grush is noting one of the most
clear and long-standing trends in UFO
world. That UFO secrecy is bound up in
atomic research. Just like Silus Newton
said in his speech, "Whoever these
beings are, they seem extremely
interested in our atomic programs.
>> Unquestionably, they are interested in
our atomic research."
>> So, American nuclear godfather Vanavar
Bush being involved in Aztec would make
complete [music] sense. Even his direct
report, Robert Sarbacher, who worked
closely with him, is on record in
letters to Bill Steinman, saying that
Vanavar Bush was directly involved in
UFO research. [music] Sarbacher is also
on record with Canadian scientist
Wilbert Smith, saying that he believes
Frank Scully's book about the Aztec
crash is substantially correct. I would
probably ask Sarbacher Oenheimer and be
like, "What was your thought process in
the 40s and 50s,
you know, scrolling this away?"
So, if a craft really did plow into the
mesa, who got the call? One clue came
from a researcher who put Aztec back on
the map in 1986. His book, UFO Crash at
Aztec, kicked the whole thing back to
life. It was the best map of the UFO
legacy program to date and he never gets
enough credit. The great Bill Steinman.
Bill Steinman is is like the most
underappreciated UFO researcher maybe of
all time. He wrote a 600page book that's
extremely detailed where [music] he outs
you know this committee which I think
maybe in its counter intelligence
moniker is named the majestic 12 but
there was probably some reality to this
and but he even talks [music] to you
know he tries to foyer um the
interplanetary phenomenon unit with this
organization that definitely existed
because this was verified by the
recipients of this foyer request in the
federal government from 1947 [music]
to 1950. The fact that we had an
organization called an interplanetary
phenomenon unit, we know due to Bill
Steinman and his work. And then at the
end of his life, Robert Sarbacher, who's
clearly part of the UFO story, was
running the Washington National Labs,
was an atomic energy expert.
>> Very, very high up.
>> Very high up. Sarbacher writes to him
saying that the rumors around UFOs are
are true and that, you know, we did have
a program. Vanavar Bush, Oenheimer were
all involved. And so all of this is
outed in this book. And so uh yeah, I
hope uh he's resting in paradise and
listening to this and you know maybe
feels somewhat vindicated.
>> Well, he had a job with Lockheed
probably keep it at that and uh quality
engineer quality assurance
and he was warned that you don't that
they didn't really like employees
writing books on flying saucers. Couple
days after the book came out, he got
canned.
>> He got fired. He got fired
>> and never ever was able to get a job in
aerospace or aviation again.
>> Top brass from Loheed Martin. They're
the ones who sat him down.
>> Locked back then Martin hadn't come into
the picture.
>> Locked and [music] um they were asking
what he was doing out there already as
if they had been tracking where he was
going.
>> Yeah. They asked him where where are you
taking trips to on weekends? Well, he's
coming out here.
>> I think it was what are you doing in
Aztec? Well, I'm researching something
that happened in 1948.
and
it came out about the UFO crash and he
said, "We we really don't like it. We
make a lot of money on government
contracts. We don't need you in there
stirring it up." Uh Bill claimed that a
couple times at the crash site as he was
leaving, he was followed by helicopters,
military helicopters. And that actually
happened to us once when we were putting
the plaque in.
>> Really?
>> Yeah. I I think it was a
more of a what are these guys up to
thing. not really a a threat.
He died in January a couple years ago.
Massive heart attack. Sheila was in the
kitchen. She was getting ready to
prepare food and Bill was up in the
upstairs bathroom and she heard a thud.
>> And Suzanne and I have been to their
house. They were near Goodyear, Arizona.
And it was a retirement development. As
soon as you pull in, there's the
firehouse and the paramedics. And you go
up and there's Bill's house. So, I mean,
you know,
>> he was right there.
>> The paramedics said he they pronounced
him dead at the scene.
>> Do you think there was any sort of foul
play involved or
>> That's so hard to say.
>> It is.
>> You know, I started this I was young.
>> Mhm.
>> You know, everybody's aging out.
>> It's hard [clears throat] to say. He
was, you know, a mature age mayor. M
>> um you know there there would be nothing
from my standpoint that would lead me to
believe that that was but it's once
again a coincidence that seems untimely
you know that's all we can
>> they were in the process of moving
>> right
>> and I don't want to say where for some
obvious reasons
>> and uh Bill Bill had been giving us
documents that never made it in his book
and and Bill and I were really social
good friend. He went from a kind of a
grumpy old guy when I met him. What do
you have so far? I got this, this, and
this. Call me back when you got more.
>> He was a good guy. Very, very talented
and
>> very talented. Very smart. And then
years later, I called him. We were doing
the first book and
and I mentioned that in our new book
coming out. I said, "Uh, what do you
have so far?" I said, "Well,
no smoking gun." And he said, "You're
never going to find the damn gun. What
do you got in the way of bullets?"
I I said, "Here's some new things we
found." He goes, "Keep digging. Keep
digging."
>> Investigating Aztec cost Styon decades
of ridicule and his own aerospace
career. It may have even cost him his
life. And almost 20 years later, another
researcher picked up the mystery and
followed it straight back to Scully's
widow, Alice Scully. One of the more
recent books to come out about the Aztec
crash was Chris Evans
>> and he was a CFO researcher who wrote a
book called Alien Conspiracy,
>> right?
>> And he had met with Alice Skully, right?
Frank Skully's
>> numerous times. Yeah.
>> Numerous time. Frank Frank Skelly's
wife.
>> Mhm.
>> And uh she had said some remarkable
things, right, about
>> she told him that there were definitely
photos of the Aztec crash still in
existence.
uh didn't tell him who, what, when, and
where.
>> Yep.
>> There were two sets of photos, if you go
back to the original Frank Scully story.
One the government took and they didn't
last long. They were almost like a
Polaroid film. It matter weeks they were
back to being blank. And then two
circumstances. Well, here Alice talking
about there are still photos. Chris
said, "When will they surface?" She
said, "Not in my lifetime."
So I don't know if she had them or knew
who had them.
>> Chris Evans meets with Alice Skully and
becomes aware that there's real
documentation around the Aztec crash
wants to urgently meet with you guys and
then what happens next?
>> His only concern was the fact he said,
"Well, I I smoke."
And I said, "Okay, we're you're going to
be in the the guest bedroom upstairs.
Just kind of open a window or smoke
outside." and it was nice time of year
and he said, "Well, I just don't want to
be smoking around non-smokers." I had to
confess that I was also at back then a
smoker. And I think that made him feel
better. But he died um the day that he
was coming to see Susanna.
>> And what how did he die?
>> Well, according to the West Virginia
Highway Patrol uh report, he jumped off
a bridge. Did he seem at all depressed
or suicidal?
>> He was joking with me and we were
laughing what we were going to do and
you know talking you know I love to cook
so what can I cook and and and all those
things. It was just a
playful fun conversation. It was and
when we got the news it was like
somebody punched us.
>> Did his family suspect any foul play or
>> No. There was one witness, right, that
>> a truck driver
>> ended up being kind of shaky.
>> Well, the information either the West
Virginia Highway Patrol did a lousy job
of taking the information or the
information they were getting was bogus
to begin with. Um, we were able never
able to find the driver, uh,
>> the witness, the truck driver that said
he witnessed Chris pulling up, stopping,
jumping out of the car, and jumping over
the guardrail or handrail of the bridge.
>> Ironically, his nephew Chris was the
first police officer at the scene.
>> At the scene,
>> they dispatched said, "We have a jumper
and underneath the bridge there is the
Koa River." Uh, and then there's a a
farmer that plant at that time corn
right up to the river.
And apparently Chris wasn't trying to
jump in the river cuz he ended up the
corn field or he wasn't
he didn't jump. Maybe he was thrown.
Intrigued by Chris Evans life and work,
I wanted to learn more about him. So, I
decided to buy his book, Alien [music]
Conspiracy. I bought it off of a random
used book website online. When it got
delivered, I opened it up and I started
reading and lo and behold, on the first
page, it was signed [music]
by Chris Evans, dated December 1st,
2004. This was just [music] a year
before he tragically passed away.
Um, I want to show you guys a couple of
things and maybe we ought to move it up
because we could get two to 4 in here.
[music] The high strangeness in Aztec
goes well beyond the 1948 crash. As soon
as we got to the crash site, we had a
visitor, a friend who seemed to know all
about us. And this was when Chris Ramsay
and I had a much smaller following. a
friend with Air Force connections and a
man who happened to be camping out by
the Aztec crash site, one of the most
obscure and undesired camping grounds in
America. He was just passing through. I
just turned around and there's a light
like way out in the distance and it's
moving below the ridge line, below the
top of the mesa, and it's just moving
slowly across the horizon. And I'm like,
man, that thing's really smooth. It's
either a chopper or a really slow plane.
And then [music] my buddy comes walking
up and and he's like, "What are you
doing?" I said, "I'm getting some wood
for the fire and and he looks over.
[laughter] He's like, "What's that?" I
think it's a plane. He goes, "That's not
a plane." Said, "Look,
there's five more people here and I
don't want to jade anybody's vision of
what they see. So, don't [music] say
anything." In fact, let's not say
anything until it does something strange
and then just point it out. Don't say
anything. [gasps]
Right after we said it was a 90 degree
turn [snorts] and we're uh you know and
we're walking back down to the rest of
the group and uh it it was instantly
over us.
>> Wow.
>> Yeah. And we're lit up in this greenish
light,
>> right? Not I didn't feel afraid.
>> One of the girls freaked. "What do they
want from us?" She starts screaming. Her
boyfriend's like, "It's a helicopter."
And we're talking like this. As we're
all standing there, I said, "Okay, well,
let's just all get back to the fire.
And then that's it. Then I woke up in
the morning. So I don't know if I missed
time or
>> that sounds like missing time to me.
>> I mean I don't remember laying down and
going to sleep or anything else. I just
woke up in the morning and then I walked
up to the ridge where the truck was
parked and the girl with her boyfriend
who said it's a helicopter. We're
sitting there and and this is no joke.
They're sitting there on a rock and I'm
talking to him and and I said, "What do
you guys think about last night? What do
you think about what happened?" And they
didn't want to talk about it. M
>> they're like that. And he's like, "It's
just a helicopter." And about 15 minutes
later, three Apache attack helicopters
come flying on the deck. Dude, I'm
looking [music] directly out from the
ridge line at their faces in their
choppers. You can see all the rivets.
You can see their faces. Not, you know,
cuz they're covered. You can't see
everything, but you see everything. And
they went roaring by in the same flight
[music] path.
>> Wow.
>> And and I said, "That's what we would
have heard. we wouldn't have been able
to talk.
>> I also spoke to an Aztec local who has
seen strange lights darting above the
San Juan coal mine right by where he
worked and he saw something unbelievable
at the crash site itself with the crash
site here. It was back in 1999 my
grandfather there building a house out
in Hart Canyon.
>> Mhm. and building the house and it's up
on top of the hill
>> there in Hart Canyon and down on below
the road that goes to Heart Canyon. We
see a convoy of black [music] SUVs like
kind of like the movies, black SUVs, no
markings, kind of weird. They're driving
out there. Then there's two helicopters
flying by like cargo type helicopters.
Well, later in the day they come back.
The vehicles, you know, driving fast.
Helicopters come back, but they have a
container. And at that time, my grandpa,
he's all he's this wild guy. He's like,
"Oh man, something's not right. We got
to go check it out. So, we drive out,
try to find something, try to find
tracks [music] where possibly gone.
Well, we came across, I'd say about a
mile or two from where right now the
crash site where [music] they say it is.
From that spot, um, we found came across
a hole and it was about 30 ft deep, 30
ft in diameter, kind of like a circular
hole.
>> Oh my god.
>> Nothing was there. But I mean, seeing
the helicopter go out there empty, come
back with a container, seeing that hole
>> next to this crash site, I'm putting two
and two together, they found something
and nobody knows what it is. And since
then, um, I've never heard anything,
never saw anything in papers.
>> They've gone back to see the whole
>> There's nothing there really.
>> And it's just it's a trip. It's wild.
>> So, you think they kind of covered up
the hole basically?
>> Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And that local you
just heard, Brett Lanner, is now the
60th mayor of Aztec.
[music]
While on the Archeletta Ranch, we heard
about cattle mutilations occurring in
the area. So, no blood and and what
about the organs and the the eyes and
the ears?
>> Uh, and later on, I never even thought
about checking for a tongue. Uh the ears
and eyes were still intact, but uh the
other was just looked like a surgeon had
taken it off. No, but no blood. Just
real clean, straight cuts.
>> What was your first instinct that a
human had done it or that something
else?
>> That something else had done it.
>> And I was coming from Cuba to um I was
driving home. There was other people on
the road, but there was this, it looked
like a cigar.
And I was like, "Oh my gosh, there's a
plane landing." And it was a big plane.
It looked like one of those transport
planes from the army. I was like, "Oh my
god, it's going to crash. It's going to
crash right there." And so I hurried up
and I sped around Turtle Mountain and I
got up on top. You're you're thinking,
"Okay, well, this plane's gonna it's
going to crash and there's going to be a
fire. There's going to be smoke. There's
going to be dust. There's going to be
something." Nothing. Drove home really
quickly and I called my mom. I was like,
"Mom, I was like, I saw this plane like
this huge plane um crash over by by
Turtle Mountain, but I didn't see
anything. I didn't She was like, I don't
know." I said, "Do do I do I call the
[music] police? What do I What do I do?"
And she was like, "I don't know." The
next day, my mom calls and she said,
"Christa,
what did that plane look like that you
saw?" And I said, "Well, I told you."
She said, "Well, they tracked a a UFO.
There was a I think it was United
[music] Airline Pilot pilot who who was
like and then they they sent it all over
the internet cuz it was all over the
internet the next day. I can still
remember. I remember exactly where I was
at on that road when I saw it. And I
know exactly what size it was. And it
was it was just it was going so slow
that I was like, "Well, it's [music]
it's going to crash. It's going to it's
it's going to go down."
It was finally time to test that
polished marble found buried at the
crash site. First, the Ramsies tested
the object on their own with X-ray
fluoresence performed by a jeweler, and
they got a very anomalous result. In
fact, they got back an extremely high
percentage of aridium, close to 40%.
Which, if right, would basically mean
this object had to have come from outer
space. So, more testing was definitely
warranted. I decided to hit up my friend
Matthew Zodakis.
[music]
Zidocus' lab does cuttingedge materials
research and he is the perfect
combination of hard-headed and
open-minded.
>> Bottom line is we're in it to receive
the truth. That's the bottom line.
>> So really hoping it's this or hoping
it's that or doesn't really do any good
and it doesn't really matter anyway.
[music]
>> Okay.
I'm getting about
20.5. [music]
It looked like 6, but I thought I think
that was from rolling around. So, we'll
call that 20.5 g. Now that we have the
number of g [music]
and we have the volume, now we can
calculate the density. And then when we
have the density, we [music] can compare
that to um the materials that it's
supposed to be made out of, including
going back to the claim of uh aridium,
which is very very dense. So I can
already tell like this is going to be
nowhere near dense enough for a heavy
metal like uh aridium. But what we can
do is [music] at least check. So what
we're doing now is called uh neutron
activation analysis
and it is typically done at uh nuclear
reactors. [music] So we've got tungsten
um blocks holding it in place and we
just have it [music] gently in between
our two californium sources. And so
what's going to happen is it's [music]
only going to be very mild made very
mildly gently um slightly radioactive
and then we can by reading off the
radiation that [music] comes off of the
sample uh tomorrow is what we will find
is whether um the isotopic ratios
[music] match that of planet earth or
not. Get that covered up. All right. And
now this would be moment through. This
is our first go. [music]
So our main one is showing up here,
which is telling me it's probably
calcium.
Uh calcium the second secondary peak on
calcium also matches up.
>> Okay.
>> So we're seeing calcium in it.
>> No calcium in the original.
>> Yeah.
>> Iodine doesn't exactly go the way I want
it to. Okay.
>> But titanium does.
>> Okay. Titanium is on the list.
>> Titanium, I think, was on the list,
right? All right, let's see what these
other ones are. Let's do the lighter
elements get a little bit tougher.
>> Mhm.
>> You're seeing gold come up.
>> 3.3 3.4% for gold.
>> That one got about five. We are in maybe
a different spot.
>> Got some zinc, it got iron. Um the again
theadium, you can't trust those cuz the
gun uses those in order to to go. Uh 17%
titanium, which is dead on what they
got.
>> Yeah. Um, and we've got lead, but we
have no aridium.
>> Can you scroll down though? There's
other
>> Oh, there is others, but it it gets less
and less and less for the prestigious.
>> No, platinum would be the lowest.
>> Yeah.
>> So, even this one still, this one's set
up for for precious metals. Um, not sure
exactly what settings the, you know, the
original machine had when we were
looking for that.
>> No, [clears throat] but no, no radidium
even in the hallucin
hallucinatory mode where it could find
it.
>> Yeah. Well, I think back to the drawing.
>> I think that's that. Unfortunately, I
mean, we can still do isotopes, but it's
it's probably it's not looking good at
the moment. Yeah.
>> If it was 37% aridium, you should be
able to factor that in and find out what
its weight should be.
>> Exactly.
>> It should be heavier. Sorry, but that's
numbers don't lie.
>> We're here to find out.
>> Yeah. the exact thing.
>> Over the years, we've had people um try
and well, they would jump to conclusions
or they would try and encourage us to
sensationalize parts of the Aztec story.
And Scott and I have never felt that
that's the way to do proper research. Um
in fact, we just assume downplay
something rather than prop it up. And
the beauty of the Aztec story is and and
having done you know all these years of
research is that it is such a fantastic
story. It is a comprehensive story. It's
so powerful and and a really important
part of history and there's really no
reason to add anything to it. It just I
mean its purity is a powerful story.
For more than 70 years, almost everyone
looked at the fraud charges. They looked
at the word hoax sitting on a [music]
Wikipedia page like a name tag. And
while everyone watched that, no one
bothered to look at the actual Mesa or
call the witnesses or go out to Hart
Canyon and see the crash site for
themselves. The whole case just
disappeared right out of America's
hands. The only skeptic that has ever
been here was Carl Flock. That's because
I drove him out here and walked him
around and he lived two hours away.
>> But I might say this, he was against
Aztec for years before he ever You
dragged him here.
>> Yeah. And we had him come up and talk at
the library because back then when we
had the Aztec symposium, we always tried
to have the the pro and the con.
And uh and we became good friends. I
don't want to paint him in bad light. I
I said to him on the way out hard canyon
road, he said, 'My god, how far is it to
the crash site? I said, 'What do you
mean? You don't know where it is? No. I
said, ' Carl, how can you bet? It would
be like being a detective trying to
solve a murder while you're sitting in
New York at the police station. The
murder was in LA. I mean, how how do you
do that?
>> This is where the story truly gets
crazy. While making this documentary, we
got in contact with a very valuable
source. This person said that a
highranking congressman he was in touch
with was actively [music] investigating
the Aztec case. He also said that that
congressman's office was broken into by
none other than Carl Flock. Remember,
this is the same Carl Flock that
provided all of the public debunking
[music] on Aztec. He's basically the
entire reason the Wikipedia page still
says this is a hoax. And this is the
same Carl Flock, who was a
self-confessed [music] former CIA agent.
The congressman apparently knew it was
Carl because the [music] office's
security camera caught footage of him.
And what was the one thing Carl Flock
took from the [music] office? Scott
Ramsay's FedEx package that involved
evidence surrounding the Aztec [music]
case. Evidence he had just sent to the
congressman. Now, I don't have a smoking
gun here, and I'm ultimately
speculating, but if this is true, and
I'm pretty sure it is, it is so so
damning. Naturally, we discussed all of
this with the Ramsies. So the guy like
the kind of main piece of real estate
online for the Aztec crash is this
YouTube documentary and it's you going
back on kind of the pro you know
>> yeah we're with Carl
>> and then Carl Flock saying that this is
all a hoax but kind of repeating kind of
the party line in this sort of very
>> um you know turned off sort of way and
and that's the guy everybody looks to as
>> oh he is an expert
>> the the expert about why this is a hoax
and he was caught breaking into a
government official officials office and
he's a former CIA agent. Yes.
>> Which we know.
>> Yeah. Which he never denies.
>> So maybe Aztec was a hoax, just not the
one we were told. Maybe the real slight
of hand was convincing everyone that
there [music] was nothing here worth
looking at. And it worked so well that
Aztec is the rare case that gets called
a hoax by both sides. [music] If Aztec
could be successfully buried under the
word hoax, what other stories have
[music] we stopped investigating?
because the same label was attached to
them. Because of manufactured stigma,
that doesn't mean every weird claim is
[music] true. Some stories really are
hoaxes. But that's what makes an
incredibly effective strategy. It
doesn't take much to poison the well.
You don't have to disprove every [music]
witness or erase every fingerprint if
you can make the story embarrassing
enough that no serious person [music]
wants to be caught looking. Which brings
me to Scott and Suzanne. over half a
million dollars of their own money on a
case that offered them nothing but
ridicule. And they spent it trying to
give a handful of [music] people their
names back. A geoysicist, a developer, a
writer who kept his word until the day
he died. People who got flattened by
this and never got to answer [music] for
themselves.
I want to give huge props to my amazing
cast and crew. Not only did Chris Ramsay
from Area 52 join as a fellow
researcher, but he was [music] a massive
help with production as a field director
and overall troop leader. And this story
would never have made it to my channel
if it wasn't for JP, whose research and
[music] outreach to the Ramsies was
instrumental in making this happen.
Lastly, I want to thank DP Arthur
Douglas and of course the Ramsies and
the people of [music] Aztec. This was
one of the most fun weeks of my life and
this video wouldn't have been possible
without their time, [music] energy, and
hard work.
>> Thank you so much.
>> That was a blast. [music]
>> Please go buy the Ramsay's newest book.
It came to Earth at Aztec [music] New
Mexico, Revealed, The Recovery of a UFO.
I'm linking it in the description.
This is their third [music] and final
book on the Aztec case in their most
comprehensive account. They've
incorporated more than 30 years of
research and previously unreleased
[music]
witnesses, documents, and physical
evidence. A lot of things that we didn't
have time [music] to cover in this
documentary. Now, you tell me whether
one word on a Wikipedia page still
belongs there.
[music]
>> [music]
[music]