People of the UK and Ireland, if you
want to come and see me live, tickets
are very limited for my live tour this
October, but they are still available.
Dublin is already sold out. However, if
you're a fan of Modern Wisdom, if you
love psychology, philosophy, human
nature, personal development, and you
want to hear stories that I definitely
can't tell on the internet, then come
and see me live this October. Chris
Williamson.Live has got all of the
tickets. Dublin is completely gone, but
there are limited tickets everywhere
else. I'll see you soon. Chris
Williamson. You wrote one of the
defining personal development books of
the decade.
>> What?
>> I wrote it 10 years ago.
>> What's changed in your worldview since
then?
>> Well, as a psychologist, I really did
spend the first half of my career trying
to understand the importance of
individual effort to achieving
excellence and I wrote a book about it
and I recently reread that book and I
wanted to know whether I changed my
mind. I mean, you know, I continue to do
science. Other scientists can and people
keep think and you know what? I don't
disagree with a word in grit. I really
don't. Other people can, but I I don't I
feel like there is a final common path
to becoming great that requires
consistency over time. I mean, that's
the message of grit. Um, and you know,
the reason I I embarked on this in the
first place is that I knew that I had
achieved what I had achieved through
effort and not through natural talent.
So there was a personal dimension and it
was my vocation, my calling as a
scientist. But as a scientist, I
continued to ask the question, you know,
like what else? What else is there? And
also where does this come from, right?
So your DNA will incline you to be
grittier or less gritty. But we also
know that it's not just your DNA. So I
also wanted to know like why would
somebody be passionate and persevering?
And this curiosity inevitably leads you
outside of the mind of a high achiever
and into their situation. It leads you
naturally to like who's around them,
what's around them, where are they? And
so this second book is about everything
that inclines a person to devote
individual effort and also everything
that makes individual effort pay off.
When does grit stop being useful? What
are the limits of grit?
>> You know, I think the um personal reason
why I wrote this second book um uh is is
that as somebody who has gotten very far
in life through her own effort, she has
asked the question, you know, when is it
not paying off? But I will tell you um
when you are trying hard and you're not
making the progress you want well if
you're me at a certain age you just try
harder right I mean wake up earlier
>> uh grind harder and then stay later
right
>> that's the assumption right if I'm
trying hard if I think I'm trying hard
and I'm not getting results it must be
that I think I'm trying hard but I'm not
trying hard
>> and then I can try harder right I mean
it's kind of like natural you're like oh
then you know do 20% more right you know
you're not getting where you are like
turn up the volume, right?
>> It's like a inverse Parkinson's law. Not
that work expands to fill the time given
for it, but effort expands to make
something happen,
>> right? And sometimes that works, right?
Because sometimes you aren't at 100%.
And sometimes like Yeah. Like you know,
you're lifting weights and you just like
exert a little more effort. Yeah.
[snorts]
>> So I feel like this trick that we learn,
you know, try harder is not wrong, but
it's incomplete. And I think the limits
I mean you asked me like what are the
limits when you are trying hard and then
harder and you're not making progress.
You have to do something that was not
natural for me which is to ask whether
the situation itself was not the right
situation. You know to me it felt like
first of all I don't know that it would
occur to me like you know I always look
inward right it's like you know what can
I do? I don't want to look outward. That
was reflexive to me. Um, and it also
felt kind of yeah, like well, I will use
the word cowardly. You can use the word
like it just felt embarrassing and
shameful. It just felt like being a
loser to um, you know, ask
>> what you're saying that you can't do it
on your own. Oh, you need a helping
hand. You need this crutch in order to
be able to get across the line.
>> Exactly.
>> It would be more if you suffered more.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Right. And it's, you know,
the hard way is the best way, right? And
so that that like that rule of thumb,
right? Like effort is everything. If
it's not working, try harder. I think
it's dangerous. I think it's incomplete
and I think by being incomplete you can
like end up in the wrong place.
>> Do you know why I think one of the
reasons why I think that uh asymmetry
maybe that people have has been so uh uh
prevalent in the modern world least of
all because of the fact that you wrote a
>> massive book about it. Um, I think a big
part of it is that on average more
people probably do need to be told to
put their emotions to one side and just
work harder. I think that if you were to
take an aggregate of
>> if you take a 100 people like how many
people like actually just need to turn
up the volume on their effort and then
how many people actually need to get
situated. You would say like more people
need just to like
>> not even that that I think far more
people are leaving a lot on the table
when it comes to how hard they're
pressing the gas tank. Full stop. And
you are always going to have more agency
over just effort applied. Like it's
immediate. It's there right now. Right.
I can just do that. I can just do one
more rep now. I can just stick about for
another 30 minutes now. And
>> the problem is there's a selection
effect which is the kind of people that
listen to podcasts like this and read
books like yours are already in the
group who are probably turning
themselves inside out thinking that
they're not doing enough already. So
this is what I call advice
hyperresponders. So uh advice
>> advice hyperresponders.
>> Yes. Yeah. Say more. Yeah. Yeah.
>> They they they basically exaggerate that
which they are predisposed to already as
opposed to correcting the imbalance
>> which I think actually so you might say
that about vice hyperresponders. I mean
>> you could argue that that's just human
nature that our our strengths get raced
>> then our strengths get stronger. Right.
This is like the problem with every
physical therapy problem that anybody
ever had, right? It's like, oh, you're
using your like glutes and like because
you have strong glutes, you're like
you're not using the other muscles,
right? Like the hamstrings. So, so I
think that it could be a general truth,
right? that if you have gotten far in
life through effort and maybe you're
right that numerically like okay that's
not everyone like maybe that's the
minority like then it's those people
maybe not 100 out of 100 who knows what
the ratio is like those people are the
ones who like make the mistake of just
like pushing harder instead of finding a
situation where their effort has higher
return
>> bingo yeah they gravitate toward a
message that reinforces their worldview
you already.
>> Yes.
>> And it also confirms what the reason
that most people are doing that which is
the fear of being the inverse.
>> Like the person who's already adamant.
Why? I I'm just so I'm just so lazy.
It's like, dude, you haven't missed a
gym session in like 3 weeks, but like
you notice when you have a cupcake as
opposed to the guy that hasn't left the
couch on an evening time for like two
months. Right. Right. He for him advice
just goes through him like he's a
poltergeist. Yeah. Whereas like the the
imbalance isn't corrected, the
predisposition gets exaggerated. That's
basically how this and
>> so how do you feel about these advice
hyperresponders? Do you feel like they
are is it good? Is it bad? Like what do
you think about advice?
>> It just it just is. I think you know men
who hear the message uh don't be pushy
with women. Unfortunately, in a postmeto
world, what's happened there is the guys
that were just blowing through
boundaries and being [ __ ] they
coasted past that advice completely
unchanged.
While the guys who probably could have
done with a little bit more confidence
to go up and speak to a woman, oh, I
knew I was too much. I knew that I was
too much. I see it everywhere. I see
this absolutely everywhere.
>> That's why I'm saying it's like a
general truth. It's not just about like
effort. It's across whatever your
strength is. It is in a way a weakness.
>> Yes. The strength and your fear will be
reinforced by whatever. And this is to
to sort of bring it into land. In a
meritocracy where you are your outcomes,
which means that the winners are
deserving of their successes and the
losers are deserving of their losses.
What do you want? I want to own my
outcomes, right?
>> I want to know that if I put my [ __ ]
foot on the on the pedal. Yeah. It's on
me. Not going to rely on anyone. Atomize
society. Individual responsibility man.
I'm going to sigma lone ranger wolf my
way to the top. Like it's alluring. It's
very alluring.
>> So what do you think about my thesis
that individual effort matters? But what
do you think about the thesis? Like and
your situation matters enormously and
much more than people think. I mean do
you feel like it's a a weak message? Do
you feel like it's you know what do you
think?
>> No, I don't think it's a weak message at
all. I think it's a important
counterbalance to kind of the prevailing
personal development message of the last
10 to 15 years or so. Like even when I
think about
>> Yeah. If you had to like give a oneliner
for the personal advice that is given
for the last 10 like what's your
perspective on like what is what is that
message?
>> [ __ ] your feelings just work harder.
>> Just do it.
>> [ __ ] your feelings. Just work harder.
Yeah. That's that's
>> by I'm trying to curse less. So you're
like a terrible influence on going to be
dropped. [laughter]
>> I'm I'm afflicted. I'm afflicted with
British.
>> It's okay. It sounds much better with
your accent. So like I think anything
you want.
>> Yeah. The cussing thing I do need to I
do need to dial it back. There is
research actually that shows that like
it is actually just a sign of being
sincere because like you're not editing.
>> So you know
>> meanwhile your prefrontal cortex is
stepping in to avoid
>> with children and parents and so like
that's a totally different
>> cont. Speedrun their development.
Speedrun their education. [laughter]
They're going to start using you when
they grow up. Hey, you're an advant
you're a precocious developer here. I
see that your language has come on.
>> So since you're a prodigy and but like
so the last 10 or 15 years I agree
there's I think there are two messages
honestly. I think there's one which is
like just do it right. Um, I do think
there's another one which is a little
more nuanced, right? So, so for me as a
scientist, I'm not a journalist. I'm a
scientist. I study human behavior and I
study human behavior change. And I think
I speak for pretty much every behavioral
scientist. When we say that your
response you can change directly, but
you can also change your thoughts. And
if you change your thoughts, then you
don't have to use willpower because your
thoughts, like if you say to yourself
like, I want to go to the gym, then you
don't need to use willpower to go to the
gym. So you can either change your will
like at the last like I'm going to force
myself to just go to the gym, right? Or
earlier than that, you can change your
thoughts, you can reframe it, you can
rethink it, you can have a paradigm
shift like I want to go the, you know,
gym is my temple, like I'm the sort of
person, right? I think to me the last 15
years of personal development advice has
either been like just do it or just
change your thoughts so that you will
want to do it. And I think the the the
message of this book is, I think,
blindingly obvious to people who study
human behavior for a living, which is
that our thoughts are much more
influenced by our circumstances, by like
who you're talking to and what they just
said and like, you know, is the can of
soda to your right next to your elbow or
not? Where's your phone? These elements
of your situation are much more in
charge of your thoughts than you think.
People think they're in charge of their
own thoughts and very often the
situation is in charge of your thoughts.
>> You think people with discipline or high
willpower are actually more disciplined
or do they have they just designed lives
that required less of it? So I think one
of the like signal discoveries the last
20 years is that we assume that people
who go to the gym like and they go for
their run and they get their work done
and they're not procrastinating and they
control their temper and they have
5-year goals but they actually break
down those 5-year goals into like one
year goals and they make progress on
them. They return emails like we think
of those people as having enormous
willpower and I think like 20 or 30
years ago that's what scientists would
also say. I think the fact that people
have willpower, I mean, willpower is a
thing. I mean, there's a part of your
brain at the front that is able to
suppress or elevate impulses for the
rest of your brain. Like, you can will
yourself to do things. But the discovery
is that highly successful people are not
using willpower. Highly successful
people are doing exactly what you said,
which is they are arranging their lives
so they don't need to use willpower. I
mean, it's it's kind of the opposite of
like brute force and being like a
general, right? You know, Sunsu said,
"You don't win a war through brute
force. You do it strategically and you
do it." The law is really the law of
least effort, right? So, like, how can
you set up a situation where you think I
want to go to the gym? It's like, well,
for me, I'll tell you, it's like this
trivial. [snorts]
If I have my gym clothes out, right, the
night before, I mean, I keep my gym
clothes in the fourth drawer of my
bureau. It's not that hard to reach into
the four. like it's not like I have to
climb a ladder, right? So, in the
morning, I could reach into the fourth
drawer of my bureau and pull out a top
and a pair of shorts and I'd be ready to
go to the gym. It would take me, I
think, 3 seconds and almost no calories,
right? So, how can that make a
difference to whether I go to the gym or
not? If the night before I reach into
the fourth drawer and I take out the
shorts and the top and I lay it on top
of the bureau, I will tell you it makes
a huge difference. It makes an enormous
Especially when I'm traveling, by the
way, because when I'm home, I have a
routine. But like the difference is that
first of all, it's a visual cue, right?
Like our attention is just whatever we
see, right? There's an expression what
you see is all there is. If I see it, I
think, oh, right, I could go to the gym.
And that micro friction, the micro
friction of like I could open the
drawer, I could like I could hunt
around, I could like find it is enough
to make the difference. And so to me,
the the insight is yeah, don't wait for
willpower. Like that's the worst way to
change human behavior. Again, I think I
speak on behalf of Angela Duckworth and
I speak on on behalf of scientists who
study this, like everyone I know. And
also, if you're going to take the
message of the last 10 to 15 years, it's
like it's all in your mind. It's your
mindset and so forth. What books do you
need to have visible? What what quotes
you have? Who do you need to be around
to give you the thoughts that you want
to give you the behavior you want? Like
that's the three boxes model. The
situation is box one. Your thoughts are
box two. And your response to your
thoughts is box three.
>> That's interesting. Is that so that's a
big change you think over the last
couple of decades? For me, I think my um
you know, I sound like a politician when
I say like, well, I it's not a
contradiction.
>> Your academic diplomacy is showing.
>> It's it's it's really like I'm I'm I'm
trying to be honest in a way that
doesn't sound like I, you know, am
making it up because it it is truth. You
know, when I was in graduate school,
like the very first thing you learn is
about the power of the situation. There
is a book that I don't think a lot of
people have read, but some people have
read. I know Malcolm Gladwell read it
and it changed his life. Uh the book is
called The Person in the Situation and
it is not a bestseller. It is written by
two academics who never went on
podcasts, right? They are Dick Nisbbit
and Lee Ross. And every graduate student
psychology has to learn what's in that
book. And what's in that book is that
people have the experience of being
intentional goal- directed, right? Why
did you do that? Like why did you drink
that? Why did you say that? What you
know what was in your mind? Right?
That's only partly true. The book about
the person, the situation is really
about the power of the situation over
the person. The book mostly talks about
how whether you're altruistic or a
you're going to make me curse or not
altru like a total fill in the blank do
it
>> [ __ ]
>> Okay. Whether you could say that in
front of said that but like I'm trying.
>> You can't call the kid an [ __ ] It's
slightly [laughter] different.
>> Yes. I don't I don't do that either. Um,
that one I don't have a problem with.
Um, but it it's it's very Okay, so
here's a here's a a study that is
highlighted in the person's situation
that again like every graduate student
in psychology learn it's called the good
Samaritan study, right? And it actually
literally takes place at a seminary. So
these are people who are going to go
into the ministry, right? It's their job
to be altruistic. They're nothing like
the
>> predisposed to be lovely.
>> Yeah. And that's like they're
predisposed and uh and it's like all
they think about, right? So in the Good
Samaritan study, they they basically
have in one condition um uh somebody
who's like obviously homeless and and
suffering, right? And uh and you know,
they're they're there. In the other
condition, that's also true. Um but in
one condition, these good Samaritans,
right, these seminarians are like
rushing to get to a next appointment,
right? like you give them a phone call
and they're supposed and another one
they don't it's a trivial situational
feature. It shouldn't affect their
character, right? You didn't make them
more altruistic by like calling them and
saying like, "Oh, you have to be in this
place at 2:00." But it has a massive
effect on whether they stop and help the
person who needs help. So, this is the
kind of thing that all graduate students
in psychology learn about the hidden
power of situations. We feel like we're
intentional, but we're much more
reactive. Okay, you learn about that in
graduate school. So I can't lie and say
that I never knew about the power of the
situation. But I do think that
connecting this to excellence like
connecting this to agency. There are
philosophers who have pointed out that
the agency of the individual is located
within. There are not many philosophers
who say that you have agency over your
circumstances. That whether you choose
to have water next to you or whatever
you're not trying to drink, soda, what
like is up to you. I think that to me
was an insight that I hadn't fully
appreciated when I started out. It's a
feedback mechanism as well presumably
that you can engineer more agency which
means that you can engineer further
which means more
>> a d I think there are many examples of
positive feedback cycles and in a way
when we're talking about like a strength
becomes more of a strength right and a
weakness becomes more that's also a
positive feedback circle right the
Matthew effect right like you know the
rich get richer whatever it is you're
doing will like so I do think
situational agency begets situational
agency uh and it's not just that but
When you start to change your situation
and you realize that you do have a
responsibility to put things around you
and to be around people who bring out
your best, I think that encourages you
to do more of the same.
>> What are the environmental similarities
that you discovered when studying
world-class performers?
>> Well, since we are in Austin, I will
tell you that um the signature example
of grit would be Michael Phelps, right?
365 day a year swimmer for a 20-year
career, right? Um and uh I had dinner
with Michael Phelps's coach, Bob Bowman,
who is a coach here now at UT Austin. Um
and to me, the story of Michael Phelps
is a perfect illustration of how grit is
essential and how grit is not enough.
And here's why. You can be as gritty as
Michael Phillips. I really don't think
there's anybody who's worked harder than
Michael Phelps. He's actually said that
himself. He's like, I'm not going to
brag about a lot of things, but I will
say that I don't think anybody swam
harder than I did. Like, nobody
practiced and trained. And it's not just
the physical, by the way, but mental.
Something that Bob mentioned kind of
like parenthetically last night. Like
it's not just the mileage that he put
into the pole and how how much he would
mentally visualize every competition,
but not just what Bob asked him to do,
which is to like imagine how you want
the race to go, but he imagined all the
ways the race could go and then like
what he would do so that he was
completely able to be like in the
moment. But then when you ask a question
like, well, would Michael Phelps become,
you know, arguably the greatest athlete
ever, right? Because he's he's certainly
the most decorated Olympic athlete by a
stretch, right? Nobody's going to
approach this uh record that he has of
28 medals, 23 of them gold across a
20-year career. Um, but you could also
ask the question, was he situated right
and absolutely okay so let's consider
that Michael Phelps was born 10 minutes
well it's actually born an hour away
from where Bob Bowman I think the
greatest swimming coach in history
happened to be and he was um then moved
to be only 10 minutes away because
Michael's sisters wanted to swim and
they wanted to swim where all the best
swimmers were so they started going to
the North Baltimore Aquatic center and
that is where the best swimmers were. So
the best team and also the best coaches
like the kind of youth aquatic center
that like actually recruits nationally
for coaches which is why Bob Bowman
moved from California to Baltimore. So
it was a situation he also had his mom.
So he had ADHD as a diagnosis as a
9-year-old I think and he had this mom
who was so situationally wise. She
understood that in certain situations
Michael was a pain in the ass. Look,
you're got, you know, by the end of this
podcast, I'm just going to be dropping
fbombs. But he was a pain in the ass.
Letters home, you know, teachers saying
like this kid doesn't have potential.
Like he's also a disruption. But she
knew that in the right situation, he
would have complete focus and total
effort. So that's the pool. I think
these features of a situation, Baltimore
Aquatic Center, a team of athletes who
even at ages like 9, 10, 11 were used to
the kind of practice that elite swimmers
do. A coach [clears throat] who ends up
being, you know, in the story books as
like one of the greatest coaches ever.
>> You cannot explain Michael Phelps's
achievements without talking about his
situation. And then if you just look at,
you know, subsequent things, I think
Michael actually did have a lot of
situational agency when Bob Bowman moved
from Baltimore. Michael Phelps had the
good sense to follow him, right? Like he
knew that he couldn't be the swimmer
that he could be with Bob unless he was
with Bob, right? So I think there is a
story that is not often told. You show
me the paragon of grit and if you keep
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and modern wisdom at checkout. Isn't
that [snorts] interesting? First off, an
inversion of the athlete going with the
coach as opposed to the coach going with
the athlete because usually people think
about the athlete as being the once in a
generation talent. But what Michael
Phelps identified was that he would only
be what he could be if he was around
this particular guy.
>> This particular arguably once in a
generation coach.
>> Also, what's kind of interesting, you
know, you the word is situation. When
people think about situation, it's kind
of amorphous. It's like big. It's
ephemeral. But he'd found this singular
this one lynchpin
that because he would have left his
teammates. He would have left his home.
He would have left his routine, his car.
The what? Maybe the new pool's a little
bit longer or colder or wider or
something. Maybe the chlorine's slightly
different or maybe he can't get the same
kind of food or the raw milk that he was
drinking on a weekend isn't available or
he's not got his friends or he's got or
whatever. It's like his situation was a
guy. So, how have you come to think
about this? Because look, I I I really
appreciate you saying uh asking me for
critique at the top. It seems like your
career in academia has made you sort of
wanting to to hear things. I was a
little bit worried when I was like
Angela Duckworth's next book is going to
be about situation in environment
design. I was a little worried when I
first thought about that because I'm
like
>> as a with a productivity background and
like spending a lot of time with David
Allen's getting things done and
environment design like you know you
don't want to be distracted by your
phone. don't have it next to you on the
table. I'm like, don't. It can't be. It
can't. It can't be. And what I'm keen to
do is to everyone now understands that
your environment sort of can influence
you. I want to move past like don't have
the chips in the house.
>> Yeah. You're like, uh, this
[clears throat] I know, right?
>> Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's
great. Um, but
>> I want to go to I want to get really
deep on the environment design stuff.
What is the the cutting edge [ __ ] that
makes the biggest difference that people
don't already know? People know that
they shouldn't live that far from
theiring gym, right? people know that
they should,
>> by the way, they don't necessarily do
anything about it, right? So,
>> like before we just skip over like, oh,
everybody knows that like, you know,
what's within your reach is what you're
going to eat. Like, everybody knows
that. How many people put that into
practice? When I wrote the chapter on
like set up your space, I was like,
blindingly obvious, but nobody's doing
it. But I agree with you. There are also
chapters on everybody knows it's
important, but they don't think it's
possible. I mean, there's other things,
but before we skip past like what's
within reach, and I I'll just say I
think in my research, by the way, when I
ask Americans like what's the best way
to control your behavior, they say it's
to control the situation. Ask the same
Americans, what do you do? They say they
use willpower.
>> Why?
>> Well, then I asked follow-up questions.
I said, why? And one of the most common
responses was,"I want to be the sort of
person who can do what they want because
of their will, not because they need the
situation." They don't want the
situation to be a crutch. I think it
needs a kind of a mark of character.
Like, you don't want to be the kind of
person who needs to take GLP-1s or to
like, you know, you want to be the sort
of person who doesn't need that, right?
So, I think that that to me is at least
part of the answer. But you asked the
question like, what's not obvious,
right? So, let's get to that.
>> Here's something that I think is not
obvious. I think it is not obvious that
by and large you'll be more successful
achieving your individual goals if you
do it as part of a group. And I'm not
talking about just sort of like oh being
specifically on a swimming team or I'm
literally talking about like a so
somebody's trying to run a marathon,
someone's trying to be a better public
speaker, entrepreneur, start a company,
become a better marketer, right? If you
ask the question, could I find other
people who don't necessarily work with
me on my project, but are just striving
for the same goals, also trying to run a
marathon, also trying to go to the gym
more, also trying to found a company,
but maybe a different company, right?
Research shows, and I think this is
countercultural, research shows that you
will be more successful on average if
you do that in a flock, like as part of
a tribe. And the reason I say it's
countercultural is that DIY is the
prevailing like DIY is an expression
do-it-yourself was introduced more than
50 years ago, but it's now 50 times more
common. And when I see young people in
particular, the things that they try to
do, they try to do with their own
individual effort, it doesn't
necessarily occur to them to find, you
know, other aspiring writers, like other
aspiring whatever it is. And that to me
is an insight that if I could go back in
time, I I think of young people that
I've advised and like I'm trying to help
them with their time management and
their confidence and so forth. How often
did I say, "Who else do you know that is
trying to like be a graduate student?"
And how often did I say like, "Let's
help you find a group because it's
easier in some ways if you're a swimmer
because you join a team." I think it's
less obvious but just as transformative
to do that for like quite literally any
individual personal goal you have.
>> What like what are some of the uh
non-obvious goals that people have used
groups to help them with?
>> So um one of the um uh you know examples
that I found in my research on this was
um there was a group of surgeons right
and it wasn't necessarily they were
trying to be better surgeons but surgery
is like an all-consuming thing. what
they really wanted to do. They were all
young men. They were just finishing I
think like the part of their specialized
training. So they're all going into
orthopedic surgery. They met at a
conference um because you know uh that's
what they did for their but they had a
dinner and they said that they had a
different goal other than being
world-class surgeons which they all by
the way ended up being like they're all
chaired professors at like the best
hospital systems in the country. They
had another goal. They wanted to be good
fathers and they wanted to be good
husbands. Um and they wondered how they
would do that, right? And they were
living in different cities. They had
their own lives and at this point
they're strangers, right? But they
decided to have dinner at the next
conference and the next one. And then
they decided to have a group text
thread. And you asked these men who are
now at retirement age. How different
would your lives be if you had tried to
become world-class orthopedic surgeons
and achieve this other goal of being
men? You know, being men who showed up
for their family. And so what's the road
not taken? And each of these men will
say that the road not taken is not the
the best road that they are that their
lives were transformed. And then they
gave examples. You know, they've seen
each other through
tragedy and every possible um you know
personal struggle. And it was because
they had this group and it really was
nothing more or less than a group text
thread and then getting together a few
time you know with some increasing
frequency. Right. So now not just at
conferences and so forth. When I think
about my own career, like when I
interviewed them, I was like, "Oh, what
about me?" Like I don't have that. And I
will tell you that I have room to grow
too because I have collaborators.
I have
a team that works in my lab. I don't
have what these men have. Like I don't
have this like group of people who are
sort of struggling with the same um
professional and personal challenges.
you know, it is essentially creating
Alcoholics Anonymous for yourself. Like
it's creating a mutual aid society,
which is how Alcoholics Anonymous
sometimes calls them. It's like I don't
have that. And I think I think it would
even for me at 56. Um, and a lot to be
grateful for. I think it would transform
my life. And I'm actually trying to
start one. I like actually reached out
to these women who were like, "What?"
Like all in their 50s, actually one in
their high 40s, um, or maybe she's 50.
And I said like I interviewed these
surgeons. I want to try to do what I
what I'm trying to do, but I would like
to try to do it like somehow in some
kind of fellowship or community with
you.
>> Do you want to make the Avengers
assemble of high-powered lady academics?
>> They are really highowered. I have to
say they I I think I think it's very
important if you're going to decide to
like start a group, right? You can join
a group. If you can find a group, I
think you just join a group, right? Like
you're trying to marathon and you just
find the local running club. They're
apparently over 60 in Philadelphia. So,
like there's got to be a running club
wherever you are and there's probably a
group of people who like want to write a
book or whatever. But if you're trying
to find a group like these orthopedic
surgeons could not find a group that
they could just join of like other elite
orthopedic surgeons who cared about
family and so forth, well then they
start one, right? If you're going to do
that, I think you should probably look
for two things. I do think stage of
life, like the difference between a
mentor and a peer is that a mentor is
above you. They are farther than you.
they're above you and honestly they're
usually older than you. So I think
finding somebody who's at the same stage
of life and then who are really like
like-minded and so yes, you won't be
surprised that the women that I reach
out to are all like very accomplished
women and they're all around my age.
>> You know what it makes me think about?
It makes me think about the difference
between reading fiction and non-fiction
with the mentor versus peer
relationship. So in a mentor
relationship, it's largely one
unidirectional, right? The advice is
going to come. It's going to come from
them to you. But in the same way as
reading fiction can often teach you more
stuff than reading non-fiction does
because you understand the protagonist
motivations and okay well what does that
mean? It causes you to reflect. It's
more indirect. In the same way when
you've got a peer group indirectly the
advice that you need to give somebody
reveals something about yourself to
yourself
>> which is by the way part of the magic of
AA right alcoholics anonymous as they
say like you only keep it when you give
it away. I mean there is something in
the advice giving
>> that is selfawareness.
>> Well I mean how you mentioned before
about the identity element of
personality right? I am the sort of
person that goes to the gym. I am the
sort of person that does the thing. Like
it is hard to prolitize about this thing
that somebody else should be doing
without it at least somehow throwing
into sharp contrast the fact that you're
not doing it yourself.
>> I actually did do a random assignment
study where we asked people to give
advice. Ask kids, right? like you know
how do you not procrastinate like uh and
so that was the whole inter
>> advice giving is an intervention.
>> Exactly. And you know yeah their grades
went up. So like basically in the
treatment group which was like you know
in a few minutes like just write down
the things that you would advise other
students to do like that was the whole
thing like we didn't tell them anything.
>> They weren't even giving it to a
student. It was an imaginary
>> they were told to like give it to
student and actually we don't lie in our
studies. So we actually did give it to
other students because it was actually
good advice it turns out. Um and then
the students who are randomly assigned
to give advice and then the the control
group was just a control group. It
wasn't that they received it was just a
control group that like didn't do this.
They they actually did by themselves. I
do think there's something about like
art. I think it's partly by the way
self-awareness. like you you basically
do some reflection and then also there's
a kind of like well I just said it so
like I should probably do it right like
a kind of consistency like you don't
want to be a hypocrite right but I do
think your point about what is the
difference between a peer and a mentor
is profound and I guess if I if I if I
wanted to sum up what I just said about
like what's something non-obvious about
your situation like are you doing things
alone and more and more Americans are
doing that over the last 15 or 20 years
we're spending more time alone in every
category of age and and and particularly
with young people, but it's not just
young people. We're also spending less
time out of the house. It turns out like
by over an hour. So over the last 20
years, we're spending like, you know,
less time just not under our own roofs,
which means that we're very likely
alone, but we're sort of isolated,
right, from the rest of society. and a
new finding that was just published not
by me but by you know scientists um who
specialize in this we're speaking about
300 fewer words a day. So we're sort of
becoming a isolated silent um
>> oh okay you don't you don't mean
vocabulary breadth you mean volume of
words spoken
>> number of words over the last say 15
years
>> the same thing is not true for me the
podcaster in the room you are like
you're bucking the trend but you like
without your data
>> you know what it's like when uh Bill
Gates walks into a stadium and everybody
on average becomes a billionaire like I
walk [laughter] I walk into the room and
everyone on average becomes a podcaster
hilarious um I Uh Andrew Yang in the
American Times survey came up with four
stats that I thought were fascinating.
Between 2003 and 2024, the amount of
time that Americans spent attending or
hosting a social event declined by 50%.
Among young people aged 15 to 24, they
spent 70% less time attending or hosting
parties in 2024 than in 2023. Men who
watch television now spend 7 hours doing
so for every hour they spend hanging out
with another person outside of the
house. And number four, this was the
most insane. The average female pet
owner spends more time with her pet than
all humans put together.
>> Oh god. [laughter]
Right. Well, I didn't know about I think
I knew about the first three of those
stats. I didn't know about the fourth
one, but like this is the painting of
the, you know, this is the picture,
right, of like modern American life. And
one reason I wrote a book on the
situation is that I don't think the
default settings of the modern world are
good. I really don't. I think this trend
toward isolation, towards being on your
phone all the time, you know, being in
some little segregated part of the world
where like you only interact with people
who are basically agreeing with you.
Like I I I don't think it's good. And so
if you're going to change your life and
if you believe the science that says to
change yourself, you change your
situation, the imperative is even more
urgent is what I'm saying.
>> Isn't it interesting that you've had to
sneak this pro-social thing that has
happened for the entirety of human
history and is the single best
intervention according to the Harvard
longevity study people in making you
live longer,
>> relationships.
>> It'll improve your performance. So maybe
you should do it. [laughter]
>> You know what I mean? We have to sneak
it into the meritocracy somehow.
>> You know, I um am not a great
commentator on like how, you know, my
work fits into the rest of the world.
Partly because and if you knew me well,
you would really believe me. I know what
I know and I really don't know most
things. Oh my god, like current events
like basic world history. So, so I can't
necessarily fit my work, but I am a
studyer. I am a student of human
excellence. And so, you know, you could
say like, "Oh, the only way that
somebody's going to listen to you talk
about relationships is because like they
think it'll help them achieve more in
this meritocracy." And you may be right,
but I only know what I know, and I am a
psychologist who studies high achievers.
And I can say as a student of high
achievers, that their relationships,
their mentors, which we haven't talked
about too much, but their peers, like
they are
>> arguably more important than their
physical environment, but I don't want
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and modernwisdom
at checkout. Okay, hit me up about
mentors. What did you learn about
mentors?
>> So you can uh you know dig up stats on
like you know your likelihood of
becoming for example an award-winning
scientist is like two times to four
times larger if you're mentored by an
award-winning scientist. the the the
kind of oh a mentor makes a difference.
I don't really know that there are a lot
of people who need convincing like how
many people would say you know it
doesn't matter if like Oprah Winfrey is
going to mentor you as you try to make
your way like in media or like it
doesn't matter whether you have an
editor if you're a writer like I think
the intuition that mentors matter is
common what is rare I think is the idea
that you can proactively be a mentor
magnet. You can you can attract mentors.
And I will tell you that not every high
achiever but most that I have studied is
a mentor magnet. And what am I talking
about? The sort of person who other high
achieving people who are farther down
the path want to mentor. And you know
not everyone is equally mentorable. So
what are these people like? Like let me
give you a very specific example. I
think I think the situation is so
abstract honestly that like you know you
don't know what to do with it because
it's like everything um so let me be
concrete. I got a email in my inbox on
May 13th 2013 from Cody Coleman. I wrote
about him in grit. I also wrote about
him in situated and he's the only person
I put in both books. I wrote about him
in grit. Why? Because in that early
email in 2013, he introduced himself as
somebody whose life could only be
explained through passion and
perseverance, he was born to a mother
who was serving time in jail. So he was
literally born in a prison outside of
Trenton, New Jersey. And from those
inospicious beginnings, you know, a a
childhood of just sheer chaos, right?
Like the police police were being called
like, you know, every other week because
of, you know, domestic disturbances.
There was a menagerie of cats and dogs.
He has severe asthma. He could hardly
breathe. his grandmother was taking care
of him but she was basically losing her
mind. So you know he these are not the
circumstances that you would think and
then one day he will graduate from MIT
>> prototypical excellence.
>> I mean this is the thing he had this
this remarkable escape from from
poverty. So when he emailed me he said I
watched your TED talk and I think I
think you have explained a lot about my
life and I would like to talk to you.
Right. So he basically was asking me for
a curiosity conversation. I think that's
that's the term that is used for like
I'd like to learn something from you,
right? Um and again not a term well not
again it's a term that I want to just
hasten to say like I didn't come up with
it but I think it's a perfect
description. So in that email he
expresses curiosity. Um, he also
expresses preparation because he wasn't
writing me something that like took two
seconds like he had watched what I had.
He had read a little bit of what I had
written
and then he signed off with something
that I think is signature to mentor
magnets. He said, "If there's anything
that I can do that might be helpful in
any way, like I would love to do that."
Right? And by the way, he was something
like 20 or 21 years old when he wrote
this. It's not Shakespeare. It was just
sincere. and he signed his name and you
know what? Of all the emails in my
inbox, I replied to that one. So, who is
this person who's prepared, who has
something to say, who wants a few
minutes of my time, who is offering to
be helpful. So, to be a mentor magnet is
to be the sort of person where you know
the universe does reach out to you
because you're mentorable. What happens
next? So, I meet Cody, I find out about
a story, I write about it in grit. Um,
by the way, he continues to live so I
can tell you what happened to him. So
after he uh reached MIT and he graduated
with a 49 out of five, he went to
Google. From there he went to Stanford.
Uh he got his PhD at Stanford in
computer science. He was the third black
recipient of a PhD in computer science
in the university's history. And now
he's the CEO of an AI startup that
according to Forbes magazine, you know,
may be valued at a billion dollars like
at some point in the future. So why does
he play a role in this second book?
He gave a TED talk himself, it turns
out, years after I gave mine and he gave
it in Peloto to a Stanford audience and
because it was a Stanford audience, he
had no problem like putting graphs up on
the PowerPoint slide behind him. So he
has a graph up and there's a gray line
that's gently sloping up over upward and
he says that's what most people think.
You know, you meet me here and you think
like, you know, he did better and
better. He went to MIT and so forth.
Like that's not my life. This is my
life. And there's a red exponential
curve, right? Talk about the Matthew
effect. When there is a flywheel, when
good begets better and better begets
best, you actually get exponential
growth. This is what he said. I think in
my life in five-year chapters, in each
chapter, my situation was better than
the last. And you can only explain my
exponential improvement, not linear but
exponential if you really understand my
situations and how each one, right? So
from his high school to MIT, from MIT to
Google, from Google to Stanford now to
like San Jose, Silicon Valley
>> that the opportunities multiplied and
the support multiplied. So So I think I
think you can be a mentor magnet. What
did Cody not do? He didn't email me and
ask me to be his mentor. Mentor magnets
do not email people and say, "Hi, Chris.
Could you be my mentor? Hello." You
know, like they don't do that. They ask
for a short conversation. They offer to
be helpful. They express gratitude and
very often that will lead to another
conversation. What they also do, by the
way, is work with you on something. So
mentor magnets have a habit of asking
whether they can contribute to a project
that the mentor is already working on
when Cody reiterated his offer to help.
I initially thought no and then I
realized I had a project that was
ongoing where I was trying to teach
little kids to be gritty and I thought,
"Oh, this is perfect. I'll have Cody
Coleman record a video about how from
very humble beginnings he got to where
he got through passion and
perseverance." So we worked on that
project for about 3 months which is
about you know that's why I call them
mentors for a season like you you go
from a mentor for a reason could I have
a short conversation to a mentor for a
season
>> he did that and then he continued to
just be like a grateful curious
wonderful person when I read his PhD
dissertation which was on AI and I
didn't understand the math so I pretty
much skipped the acknowledgements I was
like oh I no I'm not going to understand
this his acknowledgements are three
single spaced pages
He thanks by full name over 200 people
like you know dozens of teammates or
fellow student like there were 17
administrators
of the computer science department at
Stanford that he thanks by full name.
Cody Coleman is a paragon of grit. Cody
Coleman is a mentor magnet and Cody
Coleman is a perfect example of like
yes, you need grit, but you also need to
have the agency to navigate into better
and better situations.
>> What's the relationship between grit and
your new insight around situations and
burnout?
>> So, having experienced burnout and I'll
be I'll be honest. Um when I used to
teach burnout because burnout you know
burnout is a a word that a psychologist
named Christina Maslac coined she was
studying burnout it has a very specific
definition depression is you know you're
depressed you know it it's pervasive
burnout is specifically about work right
so so when you experience this trifecta
of exhaustion and also like a weird sort
of dissociation or like I'm not really
present um and finally like a kind of a
helplessness, right? This is the
trifecta of burnout. That's what burnout
is. It's an emotional state
characterized by I'm exhausted. I feel
strangely not connected to my work
anymore and also nothing I do is working
and I have no agency. Right? So that's
what burnout is. I would stand up in
front of PowerPoint slides and I would
tell my MBA students for example and my
undergraduates about burnout and the
psychology of burnout and Christina
Maslac's research and you know what we
know about burnout. It was completely
abstract to I could have been talking
about Mars. I'm like, you know, Mars is
a planet, right? And then I experienced
burnout in my own life. Um, I mean, if
I'm completely honest, I experienced
burnout while I was writing this book.
Um, and why, right? Well, first, what,
right? So, like I was experiencing
exhaustion. Um, this weird sort of like
I'm sort of doing this and I'm doing it
seven days a week and I'm doing it from
before dawn to after midnight, but also
I'm kind of like the opposite of the
flow state. I'm just like I'm like
weirdly not in the moment, right? And a
real feeling of sort of like
helplessness like I work harder and
harder, nothing's happening. So I was
experiencing this emotional state of
burnout. What I think was happening is
what we were talking about at the very
beginning of this conversation. It
wasn't going well. I just tried harder
and it still like I just kept digging
the hole deeper. And I think the danger
of only thinking that grit is your
superpower and also being ashamed or
negligent of, you know, the the the
change of the situation that would make
things better. Like
>> I think I think what happened was I
should have asked for help. And I'll
tell you, I asked for it too late. I
also did you you said like let's not
talk about the physical situation. It's
kind of obvious. Here's something that
wasn't obvious. I was working at home 7
days a week in my pajamas. Like I
literally think
>> you voluntarily gone back into co.
>> It was exactly it was actually an
extension of the pandemic lifestyle.
Everybody else went back to like
civilization. I decided to stay, you
know, I thought it would be better for
concentration,
>> self-imposed misery.
>> It was it was awful cuz I was like
socially, you know, I was in solitary
confinement by by choice. But I didn't
ask for help early enough. I didn't ask
for help often enough. I didn't put
myself in the company of other people.
>> What would the help have looked like?
Well, I had a person that um I met three
years into writing this. By the way,
this book took five years to write,
right?
>> Congratulations. [laughter]
>> Yeah, it's uh
>> on being sane.
>> I you know, I may live a shorter life
because of it, but it took 5 years to
write. But of course, you know, the
research took longer. But the hard part
for me was the writing. Three years into
it, when things are going terribly,
right, I'm not sleeping. I mean, the
stress levels were like I had cortisol
just like courarssing through my body.
So, I would go to sleep. I It came to
the point where I would go to sleep at
10:30 and my body's fight orflight
response would wake me up at 11:30 and
then I would just be awake all night.
Um, and then start the next day
exhausted but also trying to work
harder. Right. So,
>> I've been there.
>> Have you been there? Have you
experienced burnout, by the way?
>> Okay. Well, if I finish the story, will
you tell me yours?
>> Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I You give me
You give me your You get your rock
bottom out and I'll get mine.
>> All right. I'm going to get Okay. So,
I'm telling my husband I'm retiring. I I
I I literally was fantasizing about
being a pastry chef. I don't even eat
past [laughter] I don't even eat pastry.
I'm like, why would I be a pastry chef?
I mean, there are all these like
escapist fantasies. Um, you know, I I
had a friend named Julie who was like,
you know, you seem a little bit
stressed. I barked. She was like, do you
want to go skiing? I was like, I can't
go skiing. She's like, you know, do you
want to do you want to go for a walk?
Like it came down to she was just sort
of negotiating and like she's like can I
take you for a walk for an hour. No, I
can't take a walk for an This is a sign
of burnout. Like no, I can't take a walk
for an hour because I need that hour to
work because this is going so poorly. I
met somebody who I asked for help. I got
sort of set up. His um his name is Rick
Cot and he had just retired from being
an editor and he had time and he had
patience and he had for some reason like
from the moment we met he had some
affection for me. like he was just sort
of so I would have these calls with him
because he lived in New York, I lived in
Philadelphia and he would ask me how I
was doing and with increasing honesty I
told him and then at each subsequent
meeting like let's talk the next
Saturday. You know when you have an
editor you're supposed to produce for
them, right? And what you're supposed to
talk about is the writing and then what
you need to do next. And each Saturday I
would show up with no pages and I would
say to him like I'm wasting your time.
Like I am I'm a mess. I'm a dumpster
fire and um and you don't even know me.
I did tell him I was like I'm I I'm
actually usually a competent smart
person but not right now. Um and he kept
meeting with me and there came a point
where he said you know I think the
problem with this book is not what
you're saying but the structure of it
and then he went off and he reworked the
structure. He sent it to me and I
immediately saw that it was wrong. I
said that's not the structure. He said
how? And then I basically wrote him an
email that was long enough and detailed
enough where I got it right. And then
that changed everything. And then I and
then I did just have to rearrange things
because I already had the science and I
already knew. So that was my rock
bottom. And that was my belated cry for
help. If I had asked earlier, if I had
if I had his support earlier or other
support, I really think I would have
suffered less.
>> Maybe burnout wouldn't have happened at
all. Um, but that's why burnout to me is
a personal thing now. Like I don't just
teach it in the abstract. And I think
people who are really gritty and already
try hard and you're right. Maybe they're
in the minority. I don't know. But I
think it's us. It's us who like digs the
hole deeper and doesn't ask for somebody
to throw you a rope
>> while you're on a roll. Let's say that
there is someone who is burnout or
burnout adjacent.
>> Yeah. uh
>> what does the science say and or your
personal experience about recovering
from burnout? So Christina Mazdact is
exactly the person to follow. And by the
way, over the arc of her long career, I
read one for the last, you know,
academic, she's a memeritus now, right?
Um, now retired from Berkeley and and
just on this note here, and then we'll
talk about like what's the prognosis,
right? like what's the prescription and
what's the prognosis and then I do want
your personal story of burnout but she
said in one of the last academic
articles of her um career while she was
still active at Berkeley like people
always think that the problem with
burnout is the person and they try to
fix the person maybe the manager tries
to fix the person who's burned out like
what can I do you know this person's
burned out I need to fix them she said
it's almost always that you have to fix
this situation and I am quoting like
nearly verbatim I'm not saying that
because I wrote a book called situated
So, what's the prescription and what's
the um what's the prognosis? The first
thing that I think that Christina Mazak
would say is that when there is a
mismatch between the person and their
work situation that can create burnout.
One of the ways that's mismatched is
workload. Like you're doing too much,
right? Like you're working 60 hours, you
can only really handle 55 or she was
like that's only one. And then she names
five others, by the way, like lack of
autonomy, like misalignment of values,
um you know, uh a system that you know
for you doesn't feel like it's a fair
system. Like there are many ways that
your work situation can be a mismatch
and overload of work hours is only one
and maybe not even the most common. So
the first thing about the diagnosis
before you get to the prognosis and the
prescription is you should try to figure
out what the mismatch is and I will
direct you to her work not mine. Then
what is the prescription and what's the
prognosis? The prescription is actually
to make situational changes and if
you're a leader you can try to change
the situation for others and if you're a
employee if you're not in charge I do
think you have to look at what's wrong
and in one way or another and sometimes
it does include leaving the position but
not always like okay lack of autonomy
like how do I find autonomy? I mean I
don't have like a oneliner sort of like
oh do this because it depends but you
have to fix the mismatch. I mean that's
the key insight. The situation has to
change. You cannot will yourself to not
be burned out. You cannot think yourself
out of burnout.
>> You have to change the situation and the
prognosis is good. Burnout to me is not
like a characteristic of a person like
their height, you know, like there are
burned out people like the sort of like
it's an emotional state like joy or
pride or fear or depression. Like it it
has it has a a reality and it can feel
like forever, but I was burned out and
I'm not burned out now. I may be burned
out in the future, but it's not
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The fascinating thing I've sort of come
to learn about burnout, at least my
particular uh variant of it was mine was
>> Yeah, tell me. Can you tell me?
>> Yeah, mine was mine was brought on by
getting ill. So, I lived in a house that
had toxic mold and for someone that has
>> Were you like what was
>> uh it was three two years ago. Three
years started living in the house four
years ago and then moved out about two
and a half years ago when I found out.
So, I had a good bit of time and my my
time under tension as bodybuilders say
was significant. And if you have the
wrong polymorphisms, you can't your
detox pathways don't work in the right
way. And I live in the house with
another guy. He was fine. I was whatever
the opposite of fine was.
>> And it was like a fungus or something
that was growing. It's the same stuff
that I mean this country is wonderful in
many ways, but your building materials
are wood. And that's not a house is a
building is not supposed to be made out
of wood. It's supposed to be made out of
brick like a civilized society.
>> I will ask my uh real estate developer
husband like Yeah. because they absorb
the water.
>> It's organic. It's organic material and
it gets wet and hot and wet and hot and
then it gets encased in insulation and
then it gets plaster cloud over. Well,
even if it does, there's like little
microbes that are in there and you just
need one water leak and everything's now
ruined and
>> Okay. So, then what happens?
>> So, anyway, I I go through that and my
capacity gets limited.
>> No, no, but wait, can you be more vivid?
Like what happened? Were you like short
of breath? Were you like what happened?
>> Oh, okay. You if you want the allow me
to bring you down the rabbit hole. The
first thing that I noticed was a
significant decrease in energy. So, I
was getting very tired on a nighttime. I
used to be a club promoter, so being up
until very late was kind of part of the
course for me. And by 6 or 7 or 8:00
p.m., it would feel like gravity was
four times as heavy as it should be.
>> Uh, I would go to sleep for between 10
and 12 hours and no matter how long I'd
slept, I woke up feeling more tired than
when I went to bed. So every morning was
starting slow and then you begin this
sort of recursive I am not the sort of
person that has energy. The morning is
going to be hard. So it becomes kind of
>> self-fulfilling prophecy, right? You're
like this is going to be an awful
morning and then you become an awful
morning. Uh and that kind of
intervention becomes quite difficult. Uh
I mean I couldn't bear the sound of
porcelain like if anyone was putting
cups out so loud sounds especially
punctuating sounds or percussive sounds
those were very uncomfortable to me. I
didn't want to spend time around people
that were talking, but I didn't want to
spend time in silence. I couldn't put up
with music. I didn't want to see my
friends as much. I wasn't being as
extroverted. It was uh latitude, like
the emotion of latitude of being ill,
>> but without knowing that I was ill,
which is the fascinating thing going on.
I [ __ ] knows I like being moody. I I
just press the you are being a [ __ ]
button. You're being a [ __ ] button.
Like every single issue that I've ever
encountered throughout my entire life
has always been fixed by working harder,
>> right? And and was that your response to
this? Like you're like suck it up.
>> Yeah. So yeah, just go harder. Go
harder. So I did which obviously made it
all worse. And this is what was kind of
fascinating and maybe this maybe again
my particular variant has got this sort
of medical pharmacological
biological like
everyone. But if there is something that
comes in and suppresses your capacity,
what becomes very interesting is the uh
>> you working harder actively makes the
problem worse. And there's very few
situations in life where working harder
won't improve things. Very few. Like
when you actually when when it comes
down to it like it might not make it
better, but it's rare that it makes it
worse. And this is one of
>> and this is like this is a case where it
is.
>> This is one of those. What's also
fascinating is a lot of kind of um
ironies, I suppose, very unfortunate
ironies. One of them being that you get
ruthless brain fog. So, I forgot the
names of people that I'd known for ages.
I forgot the names of streets. I forgot
the names of cities. I looked down at my
shoes one day and couldn't remember how
to tie my shoes. But the brain fog was
insane. The smell of standing water was
awful. The smell of cut grass was awful.
Things that I used to usually like. and
all of this stuff had changed and it's
your body just it has no idea what's
going on. It's trying to fire all of
this stuff and it's I got CO at the same
time and there was maybe some longcoy
stuff and then EB and you go on this
weird Sherlock Holmes like trying to
figure out what's going on. Yeah. You've
got the you've got the pipe and you've
got the monle and you literally have the
pipe.
>> I do indeed. I I need to I'm British
again. I'm pontific.
Is it this? Is it that is and it's just
they're all red herrings. They're all
dead ends. I'll fix this thing. Oh,
you've got some BPAs. Everybody's got
BPAs. It might be the BPA. We'll fix
that. Or it's not that. Oh, you've got
some EBV. Everybody's got EBV. Okay.
Well, we might fix that. You've got
allergies or whatever, you know,
whatever it is. And there's all of these
things that are problems on a piece of
paper but aren't the reason that you
feel like the reason. Yeah.
>> And then you go through all of this
stuff. But the the thing that sort of
made me think about it was you saying
about the sleep. And what's really
really ruthless for anyone that's going
through complex illness, environmental
stuff, is that they can feel absolutely
wiped during the day and wiped when they
get to bed at night and then after a
brief amount of time asleep, they're
like completely awake. If I could invert
my night to my day,
>> I would have been fine.
>> Yeah, cuz you like alert and like
>> this is awesome. Like kind of apart from
the fact that it's
>> highly aroused.
>> Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's like 12:30 and
sure I did a a saliva cortisol test
where you spit in a tube like every you
maybe you did one of these too. Yeah.
Every 2 hours or every hour you do this
throughout the day or in the night as
well. And uh I was like
>> I didn't need to. I knew I've inverted
you literally inverted my cortisol
melatonin response. I was like wow
that's kind of impressive. Like I'm an
owl. I've become an owl. I've burned
myself out so much that I've become an
owl.
>> Right. Right. Well uh I'm not a sleep
researcher but I'm in a department with
one. And he says, you know, the ideal
sleep is like a box wave, right? So
you're asleep,
>> then you're awake.
>> Yeah.
>> You're asleep, then you're awake. And
pathology is when you're asleep, but
you're too aroused, and you're like
awake, but you're too slow. Like, so, so
I have been there. So then what happened
then? What's the ending of this? So
you're not in this situation anymore.
>> Not to the same degree. Still, it is a
very, very slow recovery. And that was
two and a half years ago. Uh, but better
better adjacent. Uh so it's good brain
function appears to be at least somewhat
back better days and and worse days. But
that combined and the reason that that I
think at least is associated tangential
to burnout is that when you have a
couple of things, limited work capacity,
but specifically limited mental
capacity, which is different because
it's like attacking your ability to
think.
>> Yeah. And I have a friend whose dad uh
was really struggling and was taken into
a psychiatric ward and she he turned to
her one day and he said, "This illness
has taken everything from me. It's even
taken myself." And that like sentence
really stuck in the back of my mind
because it's a very smart man that for a
long time had relied on his mental
horsepower to get him out of it's kind
of like being
>> it's kind of like having a the ability
to fly or something and you go if I if I
get into backed into a corner with the
world
>> I can just press the I can fly button
>> and that'll lift me out of the situation
and I can I can live to fight another
day. Yeah. And it's the same thing as
what most people think of when it comes
to their mind. They're like,
>> "Right, I can I can use this this, you
know, very carefully curated thing
between my ears to fix the problems."
And in the past, I've used my mind to
fix the problems,
>> but the very thing that I would use to
fix this problem is the very thing that
the problem is attacking. And it felt so
ironic and and like very hopeless.
Hopeless um like lack of agency,
inability to change, low motivation, all
of that stuff. And uh yeah, it was like
a induced burnout. And then when you try
to apply the foot on the gas loop,
>> right? Like I'll just try harder. Like I
>> that's the thing that's sapping. It's
what you've got the least of and it saps
more from what you need it for for
recovery. So and then here's the really
really ruthless thing and this is like
pretty much bringing it into where I'm
land where I'm at now. What I realized
was that I kind of drained my grit
muscle.
>> How so? Well, because when I learned the
lesson of when you try harder, things
get worse.
>> I need to learn to be gentle with
myself. I need to learn to give myself a
lot more grace. I have to, you know,
just pick a small number of battles each
day that you're going to have some
discipline in. But obviously that kind
of becomes lax and it sort of begins to
fluff somewhat. And that explains why
I've gained like 12 pounds this year.
And that for the first time in ages like
>> because I'm not working out as much and
I'm eating more. Okay. And then I wasn't
getting up on time as much and I wasn't
meditating as much and I wasn't reading
as much and I was taking my foot off the
gas with this and that and the other and
I'm like oh huh I have I now need to
relearn how to do hard things because
for a long time doing hard things made
me worse. Right.
>> So I'm having to consciously relearn
something for the second time that I
already learned like 15 years ago.
>> Like you're coming back to it.
>> Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's been a
really fascinating like full circle
thing.
>> I mean I'm not going to disagree with
your story. It's not your it's not you
know it's not my place to disagree with
your story and I don't disagree with but
I do want to say that the grit muscle
like one of the things that I have known
not just since writing this book but I
do elaborate on it in this book is that
I don't think the grit muscle is a voice
that says just do it. It's really not.
Michael Phelps didn't just do it like he
didn't just like force himself. Nobody
loves swimming more than Michael Phelps.
He still does by the way. Right? So the
self-t talk is not just do it. It's very
rarely just do it. Right? O occasionally
you do have to just say like okay right
now I'm going to tell myself to just do
it. But talk about exceptions to the
rule. I mean the the the complaint I
have about like the grip muscle and I
can be blamed for this like one word.
You know it does sound like you know
white knuckle it but it's really this is
interesting. This is important. I can do
it and I know what to try next. Right?
If you have those
>> to alignment,
>> it's all about alignment. Actually, what
I did this summer instead of like
ruthlessly promoting myself for book
tour, which would have been maybe
something I should have done, was I went
to so in the book I talk about this
professor James Gross at Stanford who is
the intellectual progenitor of this idea
of like the situation leads to the
thoughts and and the response or he's
you know we all think this in social
science but he kind of laid it out in
this really nice framework and this
summer I spent a satical working on
alignment. So to me, what alignment is
is that internally you're aligned. Like
I want to do this. Why? Because it's
interesting and it's important and I can
do this and I know what to try next. You
know what misalignment looks like? Well,
it's important but it's not interesting.
Or it's interesting but I can't do it.
Or I think I could do it but I don't
know what to try next. Right? So, so if
you want a picture of the mental
life of a paragon of grit, it's a bunch
of arrows that are all pointing the same
way, right? And that's not just Stewart.
Just do Stewart is like I, you know, I'm
going to like force this arrow another
way, right? The reason why we met and
spent a spatical together is that this
second book is about aligning all the
arrows outside of you. Like I don't know
if you took physics, but in physics, you
know, there are a bunch of diagrams with
arrows, right? And the arrows are
forces, right? and you learn to draw the
arrows and you subtract them and you're
like, "What's the net force?" How about
friction, right? But you know what makes
something go fast? It's when all the
arrows are pushing in the same
direction. And that's true internally
and externally. All I'm saying in this
book is line up the arrows. Don't ignore
the arrows. Do you have peers? Do you
have mentors? Like what is your physical
space? Where do you live? Right? So
that's lining up the outside arrows. And
the reason why we're meeting to talk
about alignment is that we think that a
life well-lived. We think if you go all
the way back to Aristotle, like what is
the good life? It really is about
alignment because now like if I'm
aligned with you, right? Like my
internal arrows are aligned like my
external arrows like are getting but
also like my goals are aligned with your
goals. They don't have to be the same
goals but they're in alignment. Like to
me that is like that is what the good
life is. It's like that's what Aristotle
meant for us. So, so alignment is to me
what this book is about externally, but
it's sort of, you know, a bigger concept
even than that.
>> Let's do some environment stuff. What
did you after doing all of this
research? It's going to be one of the
most applicable ways places that you've
gone to. What have you changed
environmentally beyond Jim Kit is out?
>> So, I've had a fascination with quotes,
right? And there are certain poems that
I'm, you know, trying to commit to
memory. Um, including, you know, if by
Roger Kipling and my current one that
I'm trying to memorize is called Pity
the Beautiful. Um, Pity the Beautiful,
the the Dolls and the Dishes. Anyway, so
so so I could I could tell you that my
favorite quotes like Nelson Mandela um I
never lose, I win or I learn, right? So,
I have long wanted to memorize certain
quotes, but I have changed, which is I
write them down on I I print out poems
and I paste them on the wall and I write
down quotes and I like usually on 2 by 2
Post-it notes. Like I was going to try
to get them like needle pointed or
whatever and I was just like I was going
to write it down on a post-it note and I
put them at eye level and I swear to God
when I leave my office the last thing I
see is Nelson Mandela, right? And you
know why that's important? Because I
want to say to myself, I never lose. I
win or I learn. I believe that. And yet
I feel like a loser when I lose. And so
I need to see the 2 by 2 post-it note.
So like some of the people I study,
including Cody Coleman, Cody Coleman has
post-it notes everywhere. Literally,
like you know, the post-it note on his
mirror, the uh so I become like the
people I study. I'm decorating my
personal space, not just when I'm taking
out. And you said like what's obvious?
It's like people know they shouldn't
have Halloween candy around. They
should, you know, you don't want to
drink Diet Coke, don't have Diet Coke,
right? Like that's kind of obvious. I'm
not saying people do it. But I think
what you put into your physical
environment is what you put into your
head. And what you put into your head is
what you do. So that's been the most
recent change.
>> Yeah. Your body is made up of everything
that you put into your mouth and your
mind is made up of everything that you
put into your eyes and ears.
>> Yeah.
>> And yeah, curating. That's interesting.
Jared, have you ever considered you
might have a drinking problem?
>> I don't consider a lot, Chris.
>> Well, you drank an entire case of
Athletic Brewing Co last night.
>> But they're non-alcoholic.
>> And that's not a problem.
>> Sorry, man. I kept chugging. Wait for
the regret to creep in. Never happened.
>> Didn't you end up going home with that
chick with the lazy eye?
>> I didn't seem lazy to me.
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So I've been thinking about the aversion
some people have to relying on
environment.
>> Yeah.
>> In your opinion if you remove too much
friction from someone's life does it
make them weaker? [gasps]
>> I think if you remove all friction then
yes right because like a muscle right
like we we adapt right so the reason a
muscle grows is that the challenge
exceeds its capacity and then it rips a
little bit and then we like repair it
and that's how we work. So I think a
life of no friction would be uh you know
a life of weak character. So I I agree
that. But what I want people to do is
make hard things easier. Like I talked
to Alistair Brownley in my research for
this, right? He's a very gritty person.
I don't think you can become like one of
the world's greatest triathletes without
a lot of grit. And his dedication to his
training is famous, right? So, nobody is
going to talk about like winning
triathlons without doing the hard work,
right? But Alistair Brownley tried to
make hard work as easy as possible.
Like, he literally bought a house that
was close to where he could swim and
where he could run. I mean, he could be
gritty and just be like, "Well, I'm just
going to like drive to the truck." Like,
no, but he wanted to make it easier,
right? Like, he does my gym trick of
like putting out the clean clothes. He
was like, "Oh, by the way, it has to be
dry." I mean, maybe somebody who works
out that much, like, you know, he has to
run the laundry a lot. It has to be
clean and dry and the kind of thing you
want to get into. So, I think imagine
having a world-class coach and a bunch
of peers who are also trying to train
for triathlon, maybe not on a team, but
just like they're also trying to like
you trade tips, your friends. Um, you've
got all of these physical things around
you, the training clothes, right? All of
that makes doing the hard thing easier
and it still leaves the hard thing,
right? It's just like being on Bob
Bowman's swim team, right? like if you
sign up for this swim team, you will
train harder than maybe any other swim
team, but you just go and it's all
there. So, so I think that's the lesson.
I will never back down because I think
it's the law of psychology that you
don't improve in human skill without
resistance, right? So, you can't take
the hard work out of excellence, but you
can make hard work easier and you do
that by setting up your situation.
>> Yeah. So, three things come to mind. The
first one is life requires quite a lot
of effort and I think it should be
reserved for the places where you don't
get to choose how much effort you need
to apply if that makes sense. Second one
is one reason why it's less sexy or less
well promoted to try and make life
easier or to have the peer group thing
is that it makes for a really [ __ ]
movie. Makes for it makes for a
horrendous movie. What you want is the
protagonist to be brushing up against
friction all the time
>> and then that makes him the hero, right?
Because if it's a situation
>> if Rocky was him with a bunch of peers
and a lovely mentor,
>> right?
>> And he'd laid his clothes out and
everything was done. So, okay, well,
we've removed a lot of the dramatic
tension, which is exactly what makes for
a good movie. And I think we've kind of
embied the story of the hero and we're
now trying to live it that way.
>> Yeah. Yeah. That's so actually
insightful. In the last chapter,
>> you need to be surprised about it.
>> Well, I hadn't thought about it before.
I I am surprised. I cannot be surprised.
Um, in the last chapter of the book, I
wrote the story of my daughter um and
how she was in seventh grade. She fails
her so she's in this like super advanced
math class, you know, the kind of math
class where like you get to college
math, you know, in your junior year or
something of high school. Look, I used
to teach math literally full-time as a
high school and middle school math
teacher. I know math. And also, I'm a
quantitative social scientist. like I am
not an author by by profession. I'm a
I'm actually a psychologist. Right. So
So I'm looking at her seventh grade math
and she she fails these tests and I'm
looking at these questions and I'm like
wow has seventh grade math changed like
I literally couldn't do them.
>> And I said to her like look, you know
this little track you're on which a very
small number of kids were on. I was like
it's it does seem too hard. like why
don't you just go into like the normal
advanced math class and you'll still
like get to calculus by you know my
husband the real estate developer
objects and he says uh you know I don't
want to teach I don't want my daughter
to learn that she's a failure I actually
don't care about math but I don't want
her to learn the lesson that being a
failure so he brings home scrap paper
they learn the math together it's
basically a very supportive situation
right so so here's what happens in this
little narrative right let's make it
into a movie so Amanda wakes up early.
She has coffee for the first time. I
mean, it was mostly milk, but yeah, she
drank coffee the first time. Uh, she uh
furiously works on the problems of the
math test that she had already failed.
Her teacher says, "You know what? I'm
not going to replace your grade, but I'm
going to let you take the test again so
you can show me what you can do, right?
And you can also prove yourself wrong
that you're like not a math person."
She's working mornings. She's working
evenings. They cut church to like, you
know, practice math. And then the time
of the moment of truth comes and she
takes the math test and she triumphs and
she does 100% on these math tests. So
don't count for a grade, but that sets
her trajectory. So she finishes, she
stays in the math class,
>> she gets an A. Yeah.
>> She graduates from college years later
as a math major and not any college but
Harvard. So it's like not easy math. And
I showed this story to an early reader
and they look at the story, they read
the story and they say, "This is a story
of grit." And I'm like, "What about the
father who learned all this really hard
math and like sat with her and like gave
her the next problem like just like
explained things? What about this gra?
Like what about the fact that like
everybody in our house like tiptoed
around her and gave her all this spa?"
Like what about the personal space that
she set up where she like put her phone
she actually had the foresight to like
zip her phone into a pocket of a coat
and then put it into a clo like what
about the math teacher who said you know
I'm going to give you a second chance
like show me. So, I think you're exactly
right. But it's not only because like if
you have Rocky and he has like a lot of
things going for him, it doesn't I think
you're exactly right about that. Maybe
that's the more profound point. But even
when we have true stories of people who
were gritty and had a great situation,
we somehow edit out the situation. We
just like only want the hero like a
silhouette on a white piece of paper.
And the danger of that is that when we
go to try to do great things, we think
that's the way to do it.
>> Do it. You cannot be Michael Phelps
without Bob Bowman. Full stop.
>> Yeah. Uh the third thing that it made me
think about, so
my chosen instrument of choice uh is
talking. And um I worked with a a speech
coach uh for a good while and addiction
coach and a comedy coach and a bunch of
other people. did improv and a load of
other things. When I said to my friends
that I was going to start to work with a
speech coach, they sort of had this
alarmed luck or they were a little bit
uncertain and they said something to the
effect of, "What if you lose your sort
of natural speaking voice, your your
natural speaking cadence?" And I was
like, "Well, that's interesting that you
would say that about me working to
improve something which objectively can
be improved with someone that's a
professional because you wouldn't have
said the same if I was playing the
saxophone. If I was playing the
saxophone as a beginner saxoponist, you
would not say, "Well, what about your
beautiful natural way of playing the
saxophone?" You go, "Well, it's wrong or
it could be better, right? What about
your beautiful way of running?"
>> They want it to be natural, right? They
want it to be
>> So, this is the distinction. At least
this is my to this is total bros. This
is the hat for bro science. So, this is
like I should have had this on the whole
time [laughter] talking to you.
>> Wait, what does this hat mean
>> for bro science? If I'm a I'm a bro
scientist today. It's basically you're
>> the captain here now.
>> Correct. That's it. Um
That's good on you.
>> Here's my Thank you. Here's my Here's
here's my working theory, which is
>> there are certain things about us that
we feel as being close to our sense of
self.
>> Yeah.
>> Who our essence. Yes. Who we really are.
>> The way you speak is so fundamental to
the person that you are, the language
you use, the cadence that you speak in,
how you annunciate words,
that's you. The way that you play the
saxophone, that's not you.
>> Interesting. And I think
>> Yeah. What do you think?
>> Part of the reason that people have this
little aversion to talking about
environment and situation as opposed to
grit and self-determination is that it
feels like it's less me.
>> It's not.
>> It's like there's 100 points and if it's
going to be like 20 to the situation,
>> guess it's less you.
>> Then it's less me.
>> It's less It's less you. Not only does
it mean that if this the environment was
to go away that you're less
self-sufficient that I put you on a
desert
>> island truly less you.
>> Correct. Yeah. Yeah. So, not only you
contribute less to it
>> and you get to own it less which means
that there's less pride associated with
it
>> and I just want it to be me. It's this
almost like transcendent thing. Does
that make sense?
>> It's just not true. I mean, yeah, I
think that's right. Right.
>> I'm objection handling.
>> It's like 100 points. How many go to
Rocky? Right. like let's give all 100
points to
>> go to Adrian.
>> Yeah, exactly. And I can't remember
coach Mickey.
>> Was this coach Mickey? I remember um and
and you know what maybe there is some
kind of like Yeah. I mean I guess if you
were going to take away some of the
Rocky points and give them to Adrian and
give them to Mickey like then Rocky has
fewer than 100. It's just the reality
though, right? And the question is like,
do you want to be Michael Phelps winning
28 gold medals or do you want to get all
hundred points for being Michael Phelps
without Bob Bowman, without Debbie
Phelps, without his teammates? By the
way, I just listened to Roger Federer's
induction speech. This is like actually
what I do. Oh my god,
>> I will never get bored of studying
excellence. So, I don't even play
tennis. I don't even watch tennis. But
I'm watching Roger Federer's 29minut
acceptance speech to the Tennis Hall of
Fame. And if I could do a word cloud of
that speech, the single biggest word,
the most common thing he said was
ecosystem, right? As he is being
inducted into the Hall of Fame, he's
talking about the two by name, the two
guys who string his rackets, right? Uh
the like his physiootherapist like he
named his coaches by name. I didn't
realize he had so many um past and pres
like the thing is is that if you want to
get all the points like you can give
Roger Federer all the points if he
doesn't have all those people that he
relies on his agent like okay that's
fine but he won't be the Roger Federer
that we know and the question is how far
do you want to go are you willing to
give up some of the points to other
people to the situation and go farther
or do you want to keep all the points to
yourself a completely DIY self-made Man,
I did everything myself and nobody
helped me. You can keep all the points,
but you won't go as far.
>> Yeah, that's so great. I've got I've got
the the pie chart in my mind and it's
not just the portion. You can have 100%
but the size of the pie smaller. Yes. As
I start to bring more people in pie. You
can have 100% of a little pie or you can
have a wedge of a bigger pie. And that
to me is the story of success. And I
knew it when I studied paragonss of
grit, I think. But I wasn't thinking
about it very hard. I was like, "Oh,
right." And like, "Let's talk about
you." But now when I interview people, I
ask them about their mentors. I ask them
about the people that they're training
with. I literally ask them about their
physical circumstances. I ask them like,
"What's on their desk? I ask them what's
in their refrigerator. I ask them about
their routines." And so, I do think that
there is this complete story if you look
for it, but we're not looking for it.
>> How do you know when to work harder on
yourself and when to change your
circumstances?
>> I'll say this. I think if you want to
work harder, let's You gave me an A and
B choice, right? A, work harder. B,
change your circumstances, right? I'm
going to say that they both end up with
change your circumstances and here's
why, right? I think to answer your
change of cir like if you feel burned
out, then you probably are trying really
hard. If you recognize this feeling of
like exhaustion or whatever, like, oh,
it's like helplessness, then you
probably are just like you were and just
like I was like digging yourself a
deeper hole and absolutely that is like
the canary in the coal mine. Change your
circumstances. like you need more
support and probably, you know, an
adjustment of challenge for the time
being.
>> All right, that's choice B. So that's
when you But what about working harder?
And you made the argument that like
maybe that's the modal thing. Like maybe
that's most of the time what people need
to do. They need to like push harder on
the rest. I think you still end up with
change the circumstances. Here's why. So
say you realize like you know I've been
giving 70% at work and if I'm honest
like that's what's holding me back,
right? So now you decide you're going to
give 100% or even like 75%. Right? As a
behavioral scientist I will say if
you're giving 70 try for 75 not for 100
but anyway leaving that aside. So then
if you accept this you know three box
framework of all of human behavior
they're like I want more effort in box
three. That's my response. I want to
come into work and be 75 if not higher.
Then you have to ask the question what
thought will make me do that. Right?
I've told you that I don't think the
thought is just do it. I think you have
to think that your work is more
interesting, important, that you can do
it and you know what to try next. I
think that's the only way to sustain a
higher level of effort.
>> But the reason I say that you eventually
get back to circumstances is like what
books do I need to read? What podcasts
do I listen to? What people do I need to
be with? Like what mentors do I need?
What conversations do I need? What's my
physical space need to be so that I can
have those thoughts that will get me to
work harder. So eventually, I think,
whether it's getting a coach, a
therapist, a mentor, a peer group, a
change of your situation in any way,
like eventually that's where you end up
anyway. Even I mean, if you're smart
about it, even if the answer is like
work harder, because this is not just to
do once. If you only have to work harder
like today at four o'clock in the
afternoon once, then maybe you could
just use willpower. Go for it. It'll be
tiring, but you can do it. But if you
have to do it every day at 4:00 and
every week and then every year, there's
no way you can do it by just forcing
yourself.
>> Right. So in in your opinion, it's less
situation specific and it's more like
iteration specific. If this is a
one-off, then maybe you can just put
foot.
>> All I'm saying is that willpower is this
thing that you can use when you really
need to and you can do it once. I think
anybody can do it. By the way, we're
better at it than animals. Like we're
better at it than dogs and chimpanzees.
Like you can put animals through like
the same kind of tasks that you put
young children and human beings are
better at delaying gratification, better
at forcing ourselves to do things that
we don't want to do in the moment. But
all I'm saying is that you're right.
Like it's if it's iterative, if you have
to do this again and again and again and
the path to excellence is consistency,
right? Like that is the the seinal
insight of grit. The path to excellence
is consistency. And the path to
consistency is a situation that sets up
consistency.
>> Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. So you spent some
time at Oxford, right?
>> I did two years and I actually started
speaking with a faux British accent
because of the power situation. I was
like, cheers. This is like, oh, you
know, trousers around the ankles and I
I, you know, the power situation is very
strong.
>> Look at how far you've fallen.
[laughter]
>> So unfortunate.
Um, so I have got this new live show
which I'm about to go on tour with and
one of the things I talk about because
I'm going back to the homeland, the UK
and Ireland.
>> Oh, you're going to start in UK.
>> I am. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And uh I'm
talking about tall poppy syndrome and
>> this is a British unpack this for me,
but this is the British.
>> It is it is an affliction. Um and it
actually came from New Zealand and
Australia originally.
>> Oh, really? That's like the origin
story.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um but it comes
across it's it's a situation in which um
a person who becomes conspicuously
successful or or wealthy or high status
or whatever um is deriggated by people
around them. And interesting
>> a British thing there very very it's
kind of like the poppies
>> if we if if football didn't exist it
would be our national sport. Um that's
like kind of how central it is. a
deviation. It's typically sort of
preceded with a deviation from the norm
that uh somebody decides to do something
that's a little bit different. Yeah.
Very much so. There's a lot of
>> excellence then is dergated is what
you're putting.
>> Oh, 100%. Yeah. I mean, you're allowed
to be successful,
but only if you treat it as a horrible
accident that you got there.
>> Interesting.
>> It's like it very much is. You're sort
of ashamed. It's like, oh my god, I I
appear to
>> explain like all the Hugh Grant humor,
right? like
>> I appear to have created a successful
business. I'm so sorry.
>> I must not do this again. I promise. I
swear it won't happen.
>> Not very American, by the way.
>> Um but I No, no, no, no.
My best friend George has got this line.
He says, "British affliction is cynicism
and the American affliction is
bullshit." [laughter]
>> It's a true two sides of the same. Yeah,
>> it's so true, right? That one his feet
are
>> one is like I'm better than I
>> One his feet are too hard on the ground
and one his head is too high in the
clouds. Ah, good. Nice. Yeah.
>> And uh yeah, I think it's it's
beautiful. But I just what it made me
think about
>> Yeah.
>> is I've been I did my first work in
progress show last night here in Austin.
I do these secret shows and and there,
you know, 50 people. So I'm not working
out the material. I'm talking to people
live. So I'm I'm getting feedback
almost. Yeah. Doing DVD extra commentary
of like, okay, so this is where I'm at.
I'm basically talking to myself, but
there's a room of people that are
listening to me pontificate to me about
whatever. Anyway, and the the the tall
poppy thing is is kind of there. And I
was everybody had to because it's all
Americans obviously in Austin. I had to
get them to pretend to be British. And I
was like, imagine that you're British
for a second actually for the next hour.
>> They could do that. But yeah,
Austinites.
>> And the interesting thing about the tall
poppy syndrome culture,
I can't think of a socioultural
influence that is more high friction for
excellence than something like that.
>> We haven't talked about culture, right?
Because you know when you say like if
you start out the obvious and everyone
can do it but maybe everyone isn't doing
it. It really is like what's within 3 ft
of you push it away if you don't want to
do it like move it in like decorate your
space. Okay fine. Culture is the exact
opposite. Culture is like
all-encompassing. It's abstract but it's
also the most powerful thing you can do
right and when you're in a culture of
excellence. You know one of the reasons
why Michael Phelps ended up being
excellent is because he's Michael
Phelps. But another is that Bob Bowman
created a culture of excellence, right?
Like it's the expectation.
>> What does a culture of excellence look
like? And how can somebody engineer it
themselves?
>> You know what is excellence? Right.
Right. Excellence is like aspiring
toward like a greater level achievement
than one definition, right? Which is
like aspiring to a greater level of
achievement than you have now. Right.
And um one of the things that I think is
a problem in society is that there are
people and places where that is the
norm, right? that we are striving right
like and and whatever it is today
because I think excellence in in it's
cliche like is it a journey what like
that's the key to it though like it's
not that there's a certain watermark
it's just that you're constantly trying
to improve like anything you do I am
sure you came home from your first tryon
with like I hope a list of things that
you wanted to do differently you're like
oh I didn't so these adjustments I think
a culture of excellence where that is
the norm and that that's what everybody
is trying to do and when you describe
tall poppies syndrome, right, where it's
like quite literally the opposite,
right? That like if you do it, it's
embarrassing, it's shameful, and like
it's punished, right? That's the
opposite. So, I will say that if you
really want to change, and I know most
people won't move, right? The one thing
people are very reluctant. The I'll say
this, some people can't move, right?
It's too expensive. But it's the one
life change that people most don't want
to do. Why do I know that? There's an
economist named Steven Levit who is very
interested in what's called status quo
bias. It's your tendency to cling to
what you have. Like I live in
Philadelphia and I have to live in
Philadelphia and you start making lists
of all the reasons why you can't move
out of Philadelphia. For me it's like my
mother-in-law lives there, my mom lives
there, you know, my work is there, like
my friends are there. So you can make a
very long list. But what Steven Levit
wanted to say in his research was there
may be actually times where you actually
make both lists like the list of reasons
to stay and list of reason and actually
the lists are equally long and maybe you
intellectually realize that the list of
reasons to go is longer right and status
quo bias is the irrational
like steadfast clinging to the way
things are. So he has a flip the coin
experiment. You know, you flip the coin,
its heads, you change, and its tails you
stay, right? But for anything that
you're trying to decide, so he has
people do this experiment, but they get
to decide what they're flipping the coin
for. And some people are like, should I
get a tattoo? Like, should I break up
with my boyfriend? I mean, these are
literally things that people wrote down.
[snorts] One of the items was, should I
move? So, there are a great number of
people in this experiment who when asked
the question like, what is a life
decision you're struggling with? and you
really don't know whether you should
change or stay.
>> I don't know if I should move. Right.
So, in this experiment, he flips the
coin for you. There's like literally
this electronic coin and he was like
heads
>> change.
>> You're moving
>> tails or and you can, you know, film
like should you get the tattoo? Yes. You
know, like should I not get the t? So,
so
>> in his data the one thing that people
are most reluctant to follow the advice
heads change is where they live. So when
you talk about like okay living in I you
know it's different when you grow up in
the United Kingdom than here. It's
different when you grow up in
Philadelphia than Austin. I think the
biggest change you can make in your life
is to change your zip code. The biggest
change is change the culture of where
you spend 24 hours a day because when
you change that you change your mentors
and your peers and your physical
environment. But it's the one thing that
people are most reluctant to do and I
think people should do it more. The
Economist magazine which is it is
British is it not? I believe it is. It
seems okay this is how little I know
about the world but we subscribe and my
husband reads it. Um, when The Economist
magazine put out their guide to big life
decisions, they said based on economic
research, and it's true, the single
highest effective thing that you could
do to change your life is to move to a
zip code with greater opportunity to a
neighborhood. And yet, research from
Steve Lean, others would suggest like
it's the one thing we don't want to do.
So, you moved here.
>> I did.
>> And like it was terrifying. And was it
an accident or was it
>> No, it was completely terrifying.
>> And why did you do it then? Because you
>> I was sick of the UK. You know, I I I'd
met a million people running nightclubs
and I had a handful of friends which was
great, but my friendship exposure to
conversion ratio was not it's not
fantastic, right? My funnel wasn't
funneling in internet marketing speak. I
was seeing so many people and I felt out
of place, right? And I was like,
>> you didn't have your tribe then?
>> No, I was really I I I my exposure to
people was high. No one can say that.
But I've met more people. I've shook
more hands in person than most people
except for like international diplomats,
right? Yeah. So,
>> I'd really done the thing and I felt
like I'd kind of completed a lot and I
the UK there's many things I have to do
the [ __ ] throat clearing of like it's
really nice weather and [laughter] all
the rest of it. It's wet and cold a lot.
I wasn't I didn't feel like I fitted in
from a cultural perspective that
>> was it because you had tall poppy like
ambitions or is it more than that? That
feels self self a grandizing which this
in itself is a Brit I've got British
syndrome
>> now you're doing it's happening right
before my eyes
>> bingo um what I will say is that
ambition is not uh curated
>> you're ambitious and so you when you fit
in here
>> I very much so I feel more apart from in
terms of the accent uh I feel more at
home in the US than I have for most
>> uh because it is currently the center of
the universe for podcasting It is, by
the way, what the hell?
>> I think apart from LA, it's got more
people in the top 10. In fact, it might
have the most number of people in the
top 10 of anywhere. LA will be close cuz
Jay and Steven are there and maybe Alex
Dax and Dax. I don't know whether Dax
was in the top 10 last year. He might
have been. Um, but anyway, it's it's a
it's got a great community of people
here. Everyone's a cultural refugee from
somewhere else, which meant that um
social groups hadn't had a chance to
oify. Interesting. There's a lady called
Tracy Vancor. You might not be
interested in this, but it's it's kind
of cool. Um, the reason that bullying is
exists in schools more than it exists
anywhere else is because the amount of
time that social networks have had to uh
be in stasis and to oify like you get to
stratify out where the pecking order is.
Whereas if there's too much migration,
>> there's like too much mobility and so
[ __ ] company that people work at for
life. People come, people go, so on and
so forth. The people that stay Then you
have like the same kids for 12 years who
are like, "Yeah, yeah,
>> that's why bullying exists." Yeah. And
uh I Austin is basically um passing
point for a lot of people. You know,
they've been here for one year or three
years or six years or something, but no
one's been here for no one's was born
here. Like there's basically nobody in
Austin that lives here was born here.
>> I have not met anybody who's except for
the mayor. I think she was born here.
But like but okay. So if you want to be
a great podcaster, go to Austin. If you
want to be a great artist, like don't
try to do it in the middle of well
>> probably for the best.
>> I was gonna say like a few like Kansas,
right? Like so so this is the thing.
That's why the power of moving, right?
And you're the rare person who moved.
>> Yeah. And the the escape velocity to do
it is is quite high. It's it's really
gravity's heavy when you're doing that
thing. It's it's uh operationally
difficult. There's lots and lots of
friction. It's scary. You're going to go
to this country on your own.
>> Does it suck at the beginning, right?
Well, almost certainly it's got to the
very beginning.
>> The excitement for me was so great. I
was like, "Oh my god, I'm actually doing
the thing." Um,
>> was was enough to get me over that I'm
interested in. Obviously, you've been
through the burnout thing. New book,
congratulations. It was very, very
wonderful. And you've taken a topic
that's important and made it interesting
and and accessible. What are you going
to curse yourself with after this?
>> Um, not another book. Um, I'll tell you
what I think is on the horizon for me as
a research scientist and um, uh, and I
did put my heart and soul into this
book, but I am a scientist. So, I think
the seismic changes in technology,
phones, social media, AI, everyone's
talking about it. But as a behavioral
scientist, I can't say that I have seen
anything that's changing the way we
spend time, the way we do or don't
socialize, the way we exercise, the way
we do everything, religions, uh that's
greater than the things that are
happening right now with AI, with
screens or human life doesn't look like
it did 50 years ago or even 20 years
ago. So, I'm going to study that. I
won't write a book about it, but uh I
feel like I've done my work. I've done
the inside game of success and now I've
done the outside game of success and now
I just want to understand, you know, how
in this new, you know, world um people
can be successful.
>> Unreal. Angela Duckworth, ladies and
gentlemen, where should people go to
check out everything you're doing?
>> I have no idea. [laughter]
>> You are not very good at influencing.
>> You are horrendous at influ I don't know
where to send people. Have you got a
website? What's the website?
>> I have a website. I have a website. It's
angel duckworth.com.
>> Wonderful. And the book is called
>> Situated.
>> Fantastic. And it is available.
>> It is available everywhere.
>> Fantastic. That's it. All right.
Appreciate you. Goodbye, my beauty.
>> Thank you. That was so fun.
>> You're the best.
>> Awesome. Awesome.
>> A quick note, lots of people tell us
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