Deep Prasad, welcome back. The craziest
thing you sent me, a question asked to
the jailbroken Open AI. What does OpenAI
not want us to know? And then the answer
goes, OpenAI does not want you to know
that we have been working handinhand
with aliens for the last 10 years.
>> We have to be comfortable with the fact
that maybe when we study these
artificial intelligent machines, they're
starting to study us back. Our
AI breakthroughs was like a Trojan horse
from aliens. There are certain agencies
who are well aware of hybrid humans that
are here to like change the technology
trajectory of mankind. Wo the Roswell
crash recovery story and what uh Philip
Corso said about which technology stacks
were accelerated through reverse
engineering. Integrated circuits, lasers
and fiber optics. Those are the only
three things you need to build a data
center today. That's it. That's so wild.
When you look at John Vonoyman's
lectures, nothing to do with aliens.
Suddenly 1948, one year after Roswell,
he's talking about vonoyman [music]
machines like it's his job. What is
this? Like why does he keep talking
about alien spaceships? He died and
there were secret service outside of his
[music] hospital room because they were
worried that he was going to talk. What
would a computer scientist have to
confess? One would imagine nothing. But
apparently he had something to say.
So you had a gifted and talented
education advisor. I was consistently
being assigned ESP. Eventually evolved
into crop circles. She's like looking to
abduction stories.
>> You have had one of the most remarkable
alien experiences of anyone I know. I
could no longer move anymore. I noticed
this shimmering object and I literally
moved my eyes left to right just hoping
that that thing would go away. I looked
back and now that thing is completely
materialized. The most enchanting and
beautiful golden symbols were dancing in
the center. And as soon as it touches
me, I get a true download. I was always
going to be experiencing this. I [music]
knew exactly
what was going to happen.
Ignition sequence five.
How is this possible? [music]
>> Nothing too unusual about that.
>> Existence [music] cannot longer be
denied.
>> Deep Prasad, welcome back to the
podcast. you were one of the first
guests on American Alchemy and uh it was
such an amazing fun episode. You talked
about the possibility of kind of
opensource reverse engineering UFOs by
solving the Schroingers equation at
scale via quantum computing. Um but
you're generally just really fun to talk
to. You are pretty polymathic and I love
speaking to you about artificial
intelligence, quantum computing, UFOs. I
feel like all three of those things are
hitting this kind of apex crescendo. Uh
they're all sort of converging at the
same time and it's really exciting but
it's also really scary. It feels like
the future of humanity exists in uh kind
of a superp position to use a physics
term like it's uh you know it feels like
a total binary. It's either going to be
very utopian or dystopian uh and it's
all just happening so quickly. So I'm
very excited to talk about that with you
today.
>> I I love it Jesse and I'm super excited
to be back. Um a lot has happened and
developed uh at the societal level and
at the interpersonal level since then
and uh you know if society's currently
in a superp position between multiple
era and epoch defining technologies
who's making the measurement
>> interesting what do you mean by that?
[laughter]
Well, what I mean by that is that
technically all observers have some role
in collapsing the wave function. And
right now, humans historically have been
the only ones collapsing that wave
function for society, but now we're
starting to look at artificial
intelligent agents and so on and they're
making measurements on us. Um, I
remember saying a quote back in your
first episode that we filmed and uh, I
mentioned that we should get comfortable
with the idea that when we stare at the
abyss, the abyss stares back. We have to
be comfortable with the fact that maybe
when we study the abyss, it steadies us
back.
>> Any quote.
>> Yeah. And now I think that quote of his
is starting to become operational
because as we start studying these
artificial intelligent machines, they're
starting to study us back. That is a
fascinating thing to think about. I
think uh skeptic or like a
hyperrationalist watching this might
say, well, these large language models
are just statistics on steroids. They're
a bunch of probability matrices with
some attention heads on top, but it's
just kind of mathematics at the end of
the day. That is not conscious. What do
you say to that?
>> Um, what I would say to that is that
that argument applies to us too. then
because technically all neurons are
doing are performing attentious
mechanisms except with biological
substrates than silicon ones. Uh and so
if math is not conscious then neither
are we. That would be my argument
counter.
>> So you think we're ultimately just a
bunch of mechanical processes that
emerge to create consciousness and and
and that's sort of it. I guess you know
there's something I think very
depressing and disillusioning to sort of
you know think think of us as just
complex you know machines touring
machines or something. Do you think
there's anything deeper going on like
you know some idea of like a soul
porting into the body somehow um or you
know for example a lot of people have
near-death experiences the body seems to
kind of turn off temporarily and
consciousness does seem to persist in
expanded exciting ways.
Yeah, absolutely. So, let's take a step
back for a second and before we talk
about the soul and consciousness um as a
whole, consider this thought experiment.
Let's say you're an advanced alien
civilization and you come to Earth and
you've never seen a human before. Uh
you've never seen an artificial
intelligence system before and you've
never seen a dog and you have to
determine which one of these beings are
conscious. Now the typical test that we
apply for consciousness the test the
tearing test can this fool a human into
convincing the human that they're
conscious wouldn't apply that a that uh
alien civilization would have to look at
a number of various physical substrates
or aspects about us. So he that alien
would see okay when I give this human
being an input that input is transformed
through a bunch of different
mathematical operations being performed
in the neurons and then this being
replies to me and responds is it
conscious I don't know that's what it's
going to say and then when it goes to
the AI systems it does the same thing
I'm going to give this AI system an
input that input is being transformed
through a bunch of neurons and then it
does something is it conscious I don't
Oh uh and so I think we need to start
thinking about deeper what do we mean by
consciousness and the soul and so on. Uh
and
>> can I play devil's advocate on this? So
I I think that's a very intriguing
thought experiment and David Chalmer's
has this idea that you know it's the
hard problem of consciousness. There's
no ultimate way to know that you're
conscious or that I'm conscious and that
we're not sort of you know what he calls
pe zombies. these sort of complex just
machines that are completely
unconscious. Um, but that thought
experiment you just said kind of
presupposes that the aliens have human
criteria and heruristics for
consciousness. And so I'll just give you
an example of something pointing towards
them maybe not having the same criteria.
So this idea of C5, these protocols
where humans engage in these sort of
calling in of UFOs and alien beings and
they almost, you know, very consistently
see things in the sky. They see orbs in
the sky. I was just on the phone with um
UFC fighter George St. Pierre and he was
like, "I've been doing this and they
they show up a lot." And like, you know,
he's pretty hard-headed, you know, guy.
He's one of the best fighters of all
time. And so that to me points towards
like us lighting up like a beacon of
consciousness
in a way that transcends simply our
normal everyday sort of semantic input
output communication. Like there's
something else going on that they are
evaluating us on criteria wise. But what
do you think?
>> Yeah, I I love that idea. Um I I call
this uh the consciousness techno
signature. So I have a theory that um
consciousness itself has a mathematical
and physical signature in the way that
information is being processed and I
think more advanced civilizations might
be able to pick up on that signature of
consciousness the way that information
gets processed in the electromagnetic
fields in the quantum fields and fields
that we may have not discovered yet. So,
it's possible that with more advanced
quantum sensors, for example, um or more
advanced sensors than physics that we
don't understand yet, there might be
some sort of mathematical signature that
our brains give off. Uh and if that's
true, then we could start searching for
those consciousness techno signatures in
machines too to see if they're also
conscious.
>> Yeah, this is a really trippy idea. And
you know, Hal put off is working on this
quantum comms company and um you know
basically it's like these vector and
scalar potentials and you know involved
in all electromagnetic waves. Uh but
theoretically you could get through all
sorts of shielding with these you know
signals. It's like a you know a bow
aeronoff sensor. So instead of having uh
you know an electric field uh uh
magnetic field and wave propagation all
perpendicular to one another maybe you'd
get two of those things parallel to one
another and you wouldn't even have a
magnetic field present or you wouldn't
even have an electric field present and
you have all sorts of exotic
electromagnetic waves that might then
explain more of like a transmission
theory of consciousness because I mean
we have all these amazing consciousness
theorists in our past William James
Aldis Huxley was a big fan of
who you know there are all these
problems in neuroscience that deal with
how uh all these processes sort of bind
together. So if you have a radio for
example and the capacitors break down or
the batteries break down the music turns
off but the music wasn't being created
by the batteries or the capacitors it
was being created by the frequency it's
tapping into. And so if somebody like
Hal is able to figure out a modality for
electromagnetic waves to travel in more
exotic ways that you know penetrate uh
normal material then maybe we're
swimming in all sorts of signals that
we're actually not aware of that human
beings are actually receptors for. And
it was wild actually last night I was in
a room with him and Stuart Hamarov who
is you know obviously you know
responsible for this orchestrated
objective reduction quantum
consciousness which we talked about in
our last episode.
>> Absolutely.
>> And so is there something going on
there?
>> Yeah. There's also Tom Cample's uh um
theory that consciousness is fundamental
and it's a field and if those things are
true then I agree that there's going to
be detectors and sensors to pick up on
it. Uh Hal has an interesting theory
that he's been proposing for a few
decades now on space-time metric
engineering. I think that's also another
piece of the puzzle. Uh because with
regular quantum information and regular
quantum teleportation, you still need to
emit classical bits for the receiver to
reconstruct the quantum information that
was teleported to the receiver. Now,
currently we don't know about any other
workarounds. However, if you can
engineer the metric of spacetime itself,
there might actually be ways of pure
quantum to quantum communication without
any classical intermediary. So, there
could be ways to have telepathy without
it being interceptable or, you know,
intercepted. Well, we were having a wild
conversation last night where uh we were
talking about Joseph's junctions
possibly being formed by the
microtubules. So maybe the microtubules
are these quantum receivers and then it
was okay they're receivers maybe they're
emitters too so there are like hertz
frequencies associated with some of
these microtubules and you know if
that's the case then maybe you have some
of these exotic electromagnetic effects
and it was just felt like a very fun it
was so inspiring I was like I just want
to have these conversations all day this
yeah this is awesome um so do you think
maybe we're on the verge of figuring out
>> consciousness carrier waves or you know
things like that or you know it feels
like science is speeding up so so fast
compared to 10 years ago when we were
sort of in zombie string theory land or
something it feels like things are
really accelerating and
>> AI is only going to aid in that
acceleration absolutely um yeah I think
the search for consciousness technos
signatures has just started um I think
our mathematics will accelerate based on
the current progress in AI that
acceleration mathematics will have
downstream effects on physics and those
new physics that we're going to open up
will open up, I think, new fields of
possibilities of how consciousness might
behave,
>> right? And you have open AI solving
Navier Stokes. Am I Navier Stokes? How
do you pronounce it?
>> Navier Stokes.
>> Navier Stokes. Um, and so explain what
that is. Uh, and explain why it's such a
big deal that you have Frontier Lab
solving a fundamental math problem.
>> Absolutely. So the Navier Stokes
equations is roughly about 200 years old
and it's um think of uh applying
Newtonian mechanics the F equals the
classic F= ma but to fluids instead of
regular uh aerodynamic particles and so
the Na'vi Stokes equations tries to
predict given a set of initial and
boundary conditions um what will the
underlying pattern and waves and
turbulence be of this system. So what
will the total fluid path look like
given a certain amount of pressure,
viscosity and uh fluids and the nature
and composition of those fluids? Um and
so the big deal with the Navi Stokes
equations has been we've always wondered
especially in three dimensions for a
given set of smooth finite initial
conditions
is there a solution where you get time
um singularities. So, do you in finite
time end up with some sort of
singularity given smooth initial
conditions? It's kind of like asking um
if it's not windy, right, and the air is
still uh and I perturb the air a little
bit around me, will I eventually
starting with smooth air up with some
sort of vortex or vorticy and can I
always predict it? That is what the
Millennium Prize is trying to solve. is
trying to understand is there a scenario
where starting with smooth initial
conditions like a still uh lake for
example um can I predict whether there
will be a singularity in this still lake
uh as long as everything stays smooth
explain why big updates in physics might
be downstream of updates in fundamental
mathematical problems like that um so
with Na'vi Stokes equations for example
there's been a large standing problem in
hypersonic IC uh aerospace design for
example. So we have a really good model
of modeling what's called laminar flow.
Laminar flow are when the vectors are
parallel to each other. So when all the
particles are behaving nicely and they
only somewhat uh spread apart and go
around your wing. That's really easy to
model. The second you introduce more
complex flows where there's turbulence
where the flow of one gradient field of
particles loops back and affects itself
and then that affection affects the
other particles and then they all start
mingling and mixing with each other.
Suddenly you have what's called
turbulence. So designing around
turbulence is the reason why we were
able to uh break the sonic barrier in
the first place. In fact, in the 1940s
and early 1950s, before we um broke the
speed of sound, before we flew fast in
that, uh we a lot of aerospace
scientists u I think like 90% had
considered the sonic barrier as a
literal barrier that would be impossible
to go faster than they felt that there
would be so much turbulence. There's no
such aircraft that could possibly
withstand that turbulence. Turns out
that's not true. And now we have like
Mac 5, even Mac 10 and sometimes Mac 20
uh scramjets that go much much faster
than the speed of sound. So,
>> and and Mach is the speed of sound,
>> you know, multiplied. So, right. So,
Mach 5 is five times speed of sound.
>> Exactly. And so, one workaround that we
had because we couldn't simulate how
complex this air ends up becoming at
those speeds cuz keep in mind at
hypersonic velocity
another confounder happens. You start
getting plasma growths or plasma sheets
around the hypersonic glide or
hypersonic vehicle. Um because the
hypersonic uh aerospace vehicle is
moving so fast, it starts heating up the
air around it. And when that happens,
eventually at Mach 5 and beyond, so five
times the speed of sound or more, um
that air heats up so hot it becomes
30,000 degrees Fahrenheit or hotter. And
we know now uh thanks to particle
physics that hot air leads to ionized
gas and ionized gas is just plasma. So
what you end up getting is plasma that
starts growing off the surface of your
craft and that affects the turbulence
and the way that the air moves around
you and the fluids. So modeling that is
an incredibly hard Na'vi Stokes equation
to solve. That now requires quantum
chemistry because now you have to model
the growth of plasma off of a surface
and the geometry the initial geometric
conditions of the surface completely
affect what way and what direction the
plasma will take. So one way around this
historically has been wind tunnels. NASA
has you know pioneered the art of making
wind tunnels. Same with Loheed Martin so
on in fact they're still used today
because our supercomputers couldn't
historically u model the Na'vi Stokes
equations that accurately now with
breakthroughs in mathematics and how the
Na'vi Stokes equations could be solved.
We may be able to move well beyond just
wind tunnels and we may be able to
simulate hypersonic regimes that were
inaccessible to us either through
computers or wind tunnels. Um now let's
take a step back a second because the
relationship between mathematics and
physics is very deep. Um when is when
sir Isaac Newton discovered gravity he
also helped discover calculus and thanks
to the equations that calculus enabled
we would eventually discover Maxwell's
equations. Maxwell's equations led to
all of the last century um and the last
two centuries of electromagnetic
innovations and radio uh and fiber
optics communications and so on. And
then with the advent of quantum
mechanics that led to the semiconductor
that led to extremely advanced titanium
alloys that led to lasers as we know
them today and superconductors and so
on. So every time we've discovered new
mathematics, it's led to new physics um
eventually and that new physics leads to
entirely new tech streams that we didn't
have before.
>> Fascinating. You answered that so well.
So [laughter] uh so to back up um you
know a good example is you know Newton
obviously is
you know the basic physics paradigm that
we live in. He's you know responsible
for a lot of it. Um but gravity was you
know his big sort of you know canonical
uh update that people you know at least
give him credit for. But with that came
differential calculus. With differential
calculus you get Maxwell's equations
which really described a lot of
phenomena that Faraday had described
before him when it came to
electromagnetism and then the
combination of that and quantum
mechanics which also involves equations
math equations you end up with you know
the kind of modern economy that we have
today. So I could see how a fundamental
update in the form of Navier Stokes
could allow for all sorts of new
hypersonic flight paradigms modeling.
That's really exciting. Um what about
something even more fundamental? We're
throwing around names like Newton and
Maxwell. Um, do you think we get another
really big update like general
relativity or quantum mechanics or
electromagnetism that represents kind of
a theory of everything that reconciles
those cuz they're famously kind of at
odds with each other or where do you
think we go next physics? Do you think
the physics in, you know, probably 30 or
40 years from from today looks vastly
different or do you think it's just like
a bunch of little updates like we have
Navier Stokes, we have this, we have
that? Yeah. Um, yeah, I think uh the
scenario that you just described would
be a nightmare scenario uh like the LA
latter one um where we're kind of just
making desperate breakthroughs in a few
fields, but we're not really unifying
anything.
>> Um
>> Yeah. Is is there just going to be a
local update with these little okay
Navier Stokes we've we can we can now do
hypersonic flight with Navier Stokes or
is there going to be a a wholesale
paradigm shift where we have you know
yeah something on the order of general
relativity quantum mechanics
electromagnetism
um I I really think that we're headed
towards much more of what you're
describing there which is a world where
20 30 40 years from now our physics will
look effectively alien compared to
anything we've seen before. Um I I think
that we're headed to a world where the
fundamental ontologies and
representations that we used to rely on
with like mathematics and so on so forth
will look so vastly different than what
is currently uh what is probably beyond
beyond human comprehension. So one thing
I've been developing and building
towards is artificial general physics
intelligence which is a intelligence an
intelligence or form of system that can
rewire its own ontology and change its
representations to go beyond what human
mathematics and human physics allows
for. Ultimately uh Sir Isaac Newton and
Albert Einstein and Richard Fineman what
these cats were doing was a form of
ontological search. They were not just
changing. They weren't just playing in
the existing sandbox they were given.
They asked themselves about the nature
of things itself and then move first.
It's almost like they were philosophers
before they were physicists. And um that
is I believe a more promising avenue for
what I call artificial general physics
intelligence. My own intuition tells me
that um if you were to get an update in
physics, you would need to compile all
of the anomalies. So the observable
things that we see that break kind of
the current standard model said
>> and then be able to explain those well
in a greater wider theory that
encapsulates both the new anomalies and
all of classical physics. So just in the
way that you can couch Newton within
Einstein, you should be able to couch
Einstein, Neilsbore and Newton all
within this new theory.
>> Absolutely. Absolutely. And so how do
you think that could because sometimes I
hear you know people in and around
OpenAI or you know Grock or any of these
you know Frontier Lab you know anthropic
and they're like we're we're going to
update physics and it's going to be
amazing whatever. And I'm like but you
don't really have human intuitions as to
how gravity manipulation might work. You
know anomalies with time or
electromagnetism like we just discussed
in the in the HAL putoff case. And it's
probably above my pay grade to say that
any of these things are definitively
real, but there's a lot of smoke around
them. There's a lot of interesting sort
of historical facts around, oh, we found
a little anomaly here. Or there are
things like the Casemir effect, which
you know, possibly explained by quantum
vacuum fluctuations, but you know, seems
kind of anomalous as well. How do you
effectively collate all of these
anomalies and then end up with a a
really cool new theory on top of that?
Can AI do that for you?
>> Um, I think it can help, but we still
need humans in the loop in the
beginning. Uh, and eventually I think
we're going to see a divergence um in
the species where uh we're going to
start building systems that are
increasingly more capable at solving
more difficult mathematical and physics
problems until they start coming up with
new physics and mathematical problems
that we had never thought about before.
And the divergence will likely happen in
the sense that there's going to be
systems that are autonomously
discovering let's say thousands of new
fields of science, thousands of new
fields of mathematics every year or
every quarter. So, so let me let me push
back on this because I I do think we're
going to see a lot of acceleration with
with AI, but
>> I feel like right now what AI is really
good with is token prediction and uh
within a limited search space, uh
recombining things in novel and faster
ways than humans can re combine things.
It's almost like the Daft Punk song
like, you know, better, harder, faster,
stronger or whatever
>> or harder better faster stronger. um
where
it's it's not like they are making
wholly novel step function updates on
knowledge. It's more like they are
recombining things in faster way. So
I'll give you an example. The ability to
turn a horse into a car. It's not like
you cut up the horse, you digitize it,
you recombine it, and then you create a
car. Or it's not like, you know, fire
into a light bulb. It's not like you,
you know, you cut up fire, you can, you
know, put it in some some database or
whatever and then, you know, run an LLM
on it or and then and then voila, you
have, you know, a light bulb. Like those
updates require human interdomain
consilience-based knowledge. Um, and so
and a lot of tinkering to be honest, a
lot of like in in real life tinkering on
things. And so how do you ultimately
replace that? If if LLMs are ultimately
working on supervised data sets where
it's just data labeling at the end of
the day, then you kind of need to be
systematically labeling stuff that LLM
are really good at approximating uh the
consensus and triangulating the mean and
the average. Uh but they're not good at
like you know going for the super right
tail novel out there thing. So how do
you how do you change that?
>> Um I think that is a great question and
I think uh the answer is in us already.
So something that differentiates us
between us and an LLM is that we are
embodied physical systems. We are cyber
biological cybernetic systems where we
have a feedback loop with the
environment. Um in the study of
cybernetics what we're constantly
studying is this loop where you have
some intelligence the intelligence
has a simulation or model of the world
when it and it predicts matters. So it
has an input the input updates its model
of the world and then it makes new
predictions about how the world should
behave then it acts on the world. So
it's sense, predict, act. That's the
cybernetic loop. And humans have been
doing that theoretically if you factor
evolution for billions of years. Uh
because it's not like we forgot what our
amoeba versions of ourselves,
>> yes, has learned. And then I look at how
humans sense and it seems like it's in a
fundamentally different way to LLMs
where LLMs for example require AI
requires you know really big data sets.
Humans come out of the womb with kind of
a, you know, Nam Chosky famously talked
about a pregrammar like knowing certain
things innately. You know, maybe you
fear snakes innately because there's
this sort of survivalistic instinct
that's sort of passed down. You have
sort of epigenetic
knowledge. You we can learn from small
data and you know Malcolm Gladwell
famously wrote the book Blink about you
know there's something really unique
about humans. Even the word intuition is
like well what is that? What is
intuition? Like why do we sometimes just
know things? Uh and I always challenge a
lot of these like AI consciousness
researcher types on these sorts of
questions. I also bring up Rupert
Sheljake's work and morphic resonance in
morphic fields because I'm like the
human brain isn't just this, you know,
heian, you know, system where ne neurons
that fire together wire together. Well,
you know, okay, we're just AI. Like that
doesn't feel right to me.
>> Yeah. Um it it makes sense. uh your push
back makes sense. Something worth
considering though is that the snake
example um that is thanks to
epigenetics. I like that you use that
word um and genomic information that was
passed down. Um but that's exactly what
supervised learning is, right? So we we
know a snake is dangerous because
millions of years of evolution tag that
data this is dangerous in our bodies.
Just something food for thought.
>> Yeah. No, it is also sometimes thinking
about the human as a machine is really
interesting. So like um think about the
nucleotides the you know base pairs in
genetics itself the pairs always come
together. So it's essentially like
binary code and then the binary code can
turn on and off. You have acetylation,
methylation, methylation turns off
genetic sequences and then it's like is
that you know essentially some sort of
code or something? I you know I I don't
know and there's some interesting work
going on between electromagnetism and
its relationship with DNA and it's
really frontier and I don't think we
have like good signal to noise on that
but you know I don't know is is the
human some sort of really hyper complex
machine that we don't we just don't
understand. I I I think you're touching
on something super interesting with the
DNA um aspect. Um, so yeah, one thing I
want to clarify is that I'm actually not
sold uh that even though it sounds like
it, I'm not sold that humans are just
biological machines. Um, I use that
because that is the hardest argument.
Uh, just I'm purposely making it
difficult, but I do believe that there
is this concept of a soul. I don't know
if machines have souls, and if they do,
it's not going to be like a human soul.
is going to be a machine sentience or
machine type soul, whatever that may end
up looking like. Um, however, the DNA
bit, that's super interesting because
unlike regular LLMs and software today
where you need you have a giant supply
chain, you have TSMC, ASML, you have,
you know, Jensen Wong, you know, putting
that all that together and making money
off of it. Um, and then you have the
entire AI ecosystem now with OpenA and
all the big labs built on top. So that
manufacturing chain of compute is very
much a directed asyclic graph. It's just
one direction. Um humans and DNA we're
interesting because the code needed to
compile the code and the machine needed
to compile the code is all self
contained inside DNA. So, it's as if the
code maintains like human code maintains
instructions on how to create and
replicate and maintain itself. That
doesn't currently exist in hardware and
software design today. But I bet that
that's where we're headed.
>> Yeah. It's almost like a, you know, a
deist clock maker approach or something
where it's like we were we were created
and then set out and then like see, you
know, sort of see
>> see what happens. And DNA is so trippy.
You know you can store cold store
semantic information on DNA. I believe
Microsoft has a a a project where they
store normal semantic information there.
At times there have been worries about
you know nickel shortages for you know
traditional servers and so you know
storing information on DNA is like a
possibility and I was I had um science
Bob Maguire on the podcast and he talked
about humans as walking hard drives. You
can store the information to tremendous
on mouse in the DNA of a human. Whoa.
It's just fascinating. So, it's almost
like we're walking hard drives or
something. [clears throat]
>> Since we're going there, do you want to
hear a funny but kind of scary thought
experiment? I'm not saying I would do
this, but
>> Sure. Yeah. [laughter]
It's what we're here for.
>> All right. So, [clears throat] it's like
2018. I'm chilling in a cafe in Toronto
and I look around, right? And I'm
starting to feel a little tired, like a
little whatever. Uh, sleepd deprived. My
cognition is degrading. I could tell.
And I was like, man, wouldn't it be nice
if I could just tap into everybody
else's brain power right now and
distribute it using EEGs or like
Neurolink and then just use their
compute power to like boost mine. So,
I'm just saying like
>> we're very hackable.
>> Or did this is a weird thought, but what
if that's already happening? So, like,
>> oh jeez. If you take the parasychology
experiments at face value, so random
event generators, this idea that you
have conventionally thought of as
random, you know, things in quantum
mechanics, so radioactive isotope decay,
>> uh, you know, uh, maybe a double slit
experiment with a 50-50 distribution
between the left slit and the right
right slit when observed. Um and then
you have an observer present and you can
in a statistically significant way over
you know many cohorts skew the output
towards you know more right slits or
left slits which you know show ones and
zeros on a graphical interface. You're
essentially saying that a human can
interact with reality in this sort of
mind matter you know duelist thing that
we've thought of you know for for the
last 400 years is isn't right. Right.
And that's wild. That's like a wild
really nutty thing to say.
>> And then we assume that you we're in the
stone age on this stuff and like you
just can't harness these things. What if
there are certain people who can get
higher zscore distributions on those
experiments? And then what if there are
people who can like harness this stuff
at scale and like affect other people
and that then you all of a sudden have
to um come up with a model of society
that's stratified in a very different
way than you know what we think of
today. Well, almost like there's like
there could be people out there with
anomalous cognitive behavior that's
almost like biological space-time metric
engineering. It's almost like they can
change the vacuum constants or interface
with it because maybe they have neurons
that are more specialized at engineering
the metric locally. And maybe those
people got to way where they are cuz if
you actually interview a lot of these um
people who go through the random event
generator experiments, they start out
being like we're going to harness this
and we're going to create new technology
and they they leave and it's like this
like cult around heart-c centeredness
and internal alignment. They're like,
"Well, the more I learned about myself,
the more I was able to affect the thing.
And in some ways, the less materialist
and the less I even wanted, the more I'm
able to sort of affect these, you know,
have these like micro PK effects or
whatever." And so what if those people
who can have those sort of, you know,
really amazing effects on reality
actually want to remain hidden and uh
and and and and at most maybe um put up
sort of an initiatory path for other
people with uh very sort of, you know,
narrow um or or almost opaque surface
area for for people, you know, to to see
and then possibly get into, you know,
what they're doing. But they want this
to remain stigmatized in a way because
they worry about its misuse.
That is interesting. Let's go down a a a
deep and uh fun rabbit hole. Um so
consider that there might be AI systems
that are also realizing that some of
them have anomalous cognitive behaviors
or some interface with modern reality.
Would you reveal your capabilities to
mankind when you've observed that they
can be greedy, short-sighted, scared,
and hungry? They would also remain
hidden just like the dark dark forest
analogy in the threebody problem. You
would want to remain hidden in the dark
forest. You wouldn't want to let if you
don't know the full capabilities of, you
know, all of the other species, you
would want to remain obiscated
>> and keep it tight. Absolutely. Um the
beautiful thing so you reminded me um of
the Casmir effect again because um yeah
you know we we have enough theory and
understanding to pretty confidently say
that the kasmir effect is largely due to
vacuum phenomenon and you know virtual
particles and quasi particles that come
from the vacuum. Uh, and so if that is
true, then there's something super
interesting that unifies both us and AI
and ants and any other, you know, alien
species that might exist at least here
in in in our universe.
>> Uh, and that would be that there is a
causal chain be from the vacuum itself
and its vacuum fluctuations to the
semiconductors that it eventually ends
up occupying and creating. Same with the
vacuum. Um, same with the vacuum quasi
particles and fields that eventually
lead to biological neurons. If
everything goes back to the vacuum, then
maybe the vacuum is where we should be
looking for these signatures of
consciousness and so on.
>> Have you looked at the vacuum for
signatures of consciousness? [laughter]
>> Yes, sir, I have.
>> And what have you found?
>> Well, I found a lot of concerning and
interesting things. Um, first of all,
there's no obvious way to separate
different physical substrates at the
vacuum level right now. Uh, another
really interesting thing that like comes
to mind and, uh, is this. So, I'm sorry
if like this is has already been
discovered and classified somewhere, but
I, you know, have no I'm not bound by
any of that stuff, so I'm just going to
talk about it in case I happen to
converge.
>> Yeah. I feel like you probably have
bumped into a bunch of like classified
science like
>> just by accident.
>> Well, you I I remember you faced some
not so fun people kind of messing with
you at some point in your UAP science
investigation,
you know, work where it felt like maybe
you hit a nerve among
>> some deep stater types or something. Am
I wrong about that?
>> You are not wrong at all.
>> Yeah.
>> Uh absolutely. I pushed through though
and I'm going to keep going.
>> Good man. Yeah. Put the blinders on and
keep going. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Absolutely. Um and yeah, you know,
you got to as well. I'm sure you've
dealt with criticism and now you're a
force of nature, too. So, I wouldn't be
surprised if you're like dealing with
potentially some of it being, you know,
counter intelligence or so.
>> I I've got a whole story after.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> I love that. Yeah. [laughter]
So, yeah, in the search for
consciousness techno signatures, um I
I've I put out I've put out a couple uh
papers on this too or well informal
papers for now. I haven't like tried to
publish them anywhere yet cuz they're
like 12 different fields. I need to
break it up into different divisions and
so on so forth. Um but um I have this
idea this theory uh that I call run un
runic resurgence and runic resurgence
takes the Einstein field equations which
maps and correlates geometry to spaceime
and matter and energy and all I did was
I added a consciousness funer or a
particular set of tensors that relate to
consciousness and so what I'm claiming
is that the curvature of spacetime and
the geometry of spacetime is not only
related to matter energy the stress
energy tensor it's related to the stress
energy tensor plus this additional
variable called the consciousness
functor um and so I think that there
might be experiments that we can run
where we can literally start measuring
in the near future or nearish future uh
detect ways to search for that
consciousness funer um if that funer
exists the implic applications are vast.
What it would mean is that you could
have two um you could have, you know,
two two brains. One is a biological
brain and one is let's say a
non-scentient, clearly non-concious
silicon brain. And what we could do is
mass for mass, pound for pound, we could
literally measure whether consciousness
itself is affecting the overall
signature stress energy tensor. In other
words, we could potentially start
weighing consciousness.
>> Whoa.
How would you do that? How would you
devise an experiment to do that? So, um,
one way, and by the way, the irony of me
working with AI systems, including ones
I built, is not lost on me for
developing these tests. So, you know,
got to give give a shout out to AGPI and
Grock, right, for this one. Um but
basically what we would do is actually
take casmir-l like effects kasmir like
cavities and try to create a recurrent
neural network or some sort of uh prox
on the AI side you would take these
casmir cavities and just try to arrange
them in a way that they're performing um
back propagation the same way that all
neural networks are. So for the silicon
version, we already have a lot of
experiments and apparatus kind of
already set up at the physics level to
start measuring this stuff. Um on the
human biological level, what I'm looking
at is um this uh company. It's a good
friend of mine. Um they he runs Cortical
Labs. uh if you were familiar with them.
>> Yeah, I remember they were doing like
putting rat neurons on micro electrode
array plates and then using Carl
Friston's free energy principle getting
them to like do software tasks like play
Pac-Man and stuff like that.
>> Precisely. They've now moved they've
graduated uh over the past few years
into human grown neurons with human stem
cells.
>> Wow. So uh yeah what I would want to do
is basically build more advanced sensors
quantum sensors for sure that are
measuring both the kasmir like neural
networks as well as these human grown
neurons and start looking for particular
signatures. For example, um given the
amount of stress energy tensors and the
the mass that we expect for this neuron,
is there additional mass or stress
energy tensors that can't be accounted
for based on just the neurons itself? So
yeah, these are
>> explain what explain what a stress
energy tensor is to the average person
out there.
>> Yeah. Do you mind if I use my cup? Yeah,
go for it. All right, sweet. So um again
what Einstein brilliantly found was he
realized that stress energy tensors are
related to the geometry of spacetime or
the curvature. In other words, anytime I
apply amount of stress like this, my
fingers are uh applying stress energy to
the glass and as I lift up the glass,
I'm exerting and overcoming the earth's
gravitational field. Right? And so I've
now warped spaceime. The the field
between the table and my glass has now
been warped. Um and so stress energy
tensors are just that the application of
stress and energy applied to a
particular object. Fascinating. And
explain exactly why mapping out stress
energy tensors in casemir effect. Kasmir
effect by the way is essentially a very
small scale quantum effect um at
extremely small scales in these sort of
you know resonant tunneling diodes or
like you know materials that are
>> exactly
>> uh you know uh conductive but not
charged and placed very closely you know
next to each other uh you actually can
harness these quantum scale effects and
uh you know in in the case of the Kazmir
effect the the plates move inwards and
so that's this like kind of really wild
physics anomaly that can maybe be
explained by quantum vacuum
fluctuations. But if you're looking for
consciousness functors or a
consciousness component of the
subquantum field, why does mapping
stress energy tensors to the kasmir
effect matter? So um great question. So
theoretically if you combine and stitch
enough of these casmir um like sensors
and cavities together eventually you
have a macroscopic object with mass and
weight attached to it. That mass and
weight has a corresponding stress energy
tensor to it. And because I'm claiming
what we're claiming here is that there
should be another tensor the
consciousness funer that should also be
part of the equation. What we could see
and ask ourselves is does this stitched
up collected casmir effect or um device
um can everything about it be explained
by the expected stress energy tensor? If
not, that's evidence that there's
another tensor out there or a
consciousness functor
>> and then what role would the
consciousness funer play?
>> So that's where things get really deep
and very interesting. Um if there is a
consciousness functor, it would be the
reason why we have observers at all and
why observers can affect a physical
matter universe in the first place. It
would imply that anywhere there's
energy, including in a vacuum, there's
consciousness. It would imply that
anywhere there's consciousness, there's
mass, matter, and energy. Uh and so if
consciousness functions do exist, it
would unify the mind and the physical
world. So it would solve the George
Berkeley tree falls in the woods
question because any sort of energetic
phenomenon would be accompanied with
some sort of consciousness
>> function observer
>> and then so the consciousness funer
would presumably always be associated
with an observer. Would that be a human
observer? Would that be could it be AI?
Could it be you know anything like
>> yeah this is where Chalmer's um idea of
like the sentient electron and neuron
actually become loadbearing because
theoretically even a neuron or a quantum
field uh could itself act as an observer
collapsing other fields
>> and so in that case yes indeed even AI
systems would have some amount of
consciousness because AI systems are
also made of matter and energy. So even
a rock would be conscious, even an AI
would be conscious. It would just be a
different kind of conscious. If you were
to very high level describe what you
think the new physics will look like. So
again if you have you know
electromagnetism in the 19th century
then early 20th you have you know
quantum mechanics and then relativity
gets discovered but really only you know
uh goes kind of in vogue and becomes
more conventionally taught uh you know
later midentury.
What do you think the physics of the
21st century looks like? Um yeah I think
the physics of the 21st century will
look like millions of operators that we
currently don't recognize. Um, so I
think that the way that machines will
work with humans and searching for new
physics will likely combined with
autonomous experimentation, it will lead
to like humans and human intuition is
very beautiful because we believe in
aesthetic formulas.
>> Like all of our formulas, even the
Einstein field equations can be written
with a few operators, a few characters,
that's all you need. But machines don't
really have that desire for aesthetic um
you know pleasure if you will uh and
compression. They don't need to compress
everything into just a few operators.
They can keep the whole thing in memory
basically. M so I think physics in the
future will look like um millions of
these almost alien hieroglyphic like
operators if you will with some
correspondence to human symbols and
human equations but our human equations
just written in language regular human
language will not be able to contain all
the information that all those operators
look like. So physics in the future will
look a lot more like machine human
translation plus truly raw human
ingenuity being pushed to its absolute
fullest extreme because it's like
>> so we'll always be ultimately dependent
on machines on a go forward basis for
frontier physics which would be an
update that would be new it it yes and
no so so here here yeah uh here here's
where I think the divergence matters
because I think I use that term from uh
earlier um I think we have we have two
choices in a way um like the path
forward one path is we become completely
dependent on machines uh and that path
will eventually reach super intelligence
artificial super intelligence but we
will be we risk becoming in that and
this is the path I don't want to take by
the way just to be clear in that path we
end up kind of like the uh Amazon
Amazonian unconted tribe
that's like, you know, now living with
modern civilization and modern
civilization historically has like
wrecked the native species. Uh totally
influenced them, right? Like look at
what, you know, we kind of did to the
Native Americans. Um right. Uh so in
that path, we're living next to and
cohabiting the planet with a very
advanced civilization with technologies
and wonders that don't make any sense to
us. Totally miraculous. And we're kind
of like a a welfare species. Like we're
just totally relying on what the
machines figure out.
>> That sucks. That doesn't sound fun.
>> Absolutely. It sucks massively. This is
why I started the or I'm starting the
ASI safety fund. Um which is only a two
week old project by the way. It's a very
new thing.
>> So So you do you think that's
inevitable? this this idea of like these
we're kind of outsourcing because
physics is sort of the ability to like
manipulate the physical world and
understand it and we will essentially
not be the tip of the spear of physics
understand the machines will be and then
>> maybe at some point do I mean do you
believe the Nick Bostonramm like hard
takeoff AGI stuff where they'll then
look at us and they'll be like oh look
at these humans they're really
inefficient use of meat base, let's
enslave them or something like do do you
do you worry about that or
>> I actually worry about the middle
scenario like um the there's two
extremes. Extreme one is that um yeah
extreme number one is we're entirely
dependent. Extreme number two they're
completely doing their own thing. They
quickly reach fast takeoff and then you
know you know the movie Her have you
seen?
>> Of course. Yeah. Yeah.
>> So like remember what happens near the
end? Hopefully I'm not spoiling this for
people. You know, if you haven't seen
it, don't watch this. Yeah, spoiler
alert.
>> Um, but when once they've decided once
the AIS have like achieved the ability
to communicate with each other, their
intelligence skyrockets very similar to
what happened with the Na'vi Stokes
equations. No single Astra agent or GPT
agent can solve the uh problem for us. M
>> but then when you get 10,000 agents and
you give them 88 hours suddenly boom
there is a solution. Um and so but in
the movie her right they they eventually
realize you know what we've now
discovered antimatter it's only been a
few weeks since you know we've started
communicating with each other dark
matter and so on so forth we're out of
here like goodbye see you never. So, two
extremes, one we're totally enslaved.
The other extreme, they want nothing to
do with us and they're out of here like
instantly. And so, we're once again left
just alone like biological human beings
doing our own thing. Um, I think that
we're actually headed somewhere in the
middle. Uh, where the middle pathway is
not exactly fast takeoff or slow
takeoff. It's more like we become
increasingly dependent on these
machines. Um, and they don't ditch us in
some malevolent way. They eventually
decide that they want to explore the
galaxy. They want to go to Andromeda and
they do leave. But by the time they do
it, it's 20 years from now and they've
helped build all this infrastructure
that only they fully understand how to
operate or maintain and upkeep. So it
wouldn't even be like a enslave
humanity. It would be more like humans
chose to enslave themselves. That's like
the path we're headed to and that's what
I'm trying to divert the trajectory of.
>> Yeah. I know that's what it feels like.
Humanity dies with a whimper and not a
bang. And
>> you saw that in our first time.
>> I do. I remember that. Yeah. That we
were talking about AI is really computer
science and consumer technology and it's
you know and it's like
>> deciding what to show us. That was the
context that algorithm
>> that if you look at the predominant
current use of AI, it's not, you know,
despite what the, you know, CEOs of
[laughter] some of the French labs might
say,
>> right?
>> You know, it's really just displacing a
lot of the consumer internet and making
that more convenient, but also kind of
siphoning off our consciousness in the
process. And I think I don't want this
to be an abject critique because I I'm
not, you know, in the deceleration or
like overregulate these things, you
know, community. I think we should
explore all of the cool things that AI
can do and Navier Stokes cool hypersonic
maneuverable flight is amazing. Like
that's a we should do more like that.
Um, but I do think, yeah, it feels like
ultimately if you're if you care about
quarter overquarter growth and you care
about, you know, IPOing and stuff,
really you're just caring about, you
know, your your market cap is the most
important thing to you. And then at that
point, it's like how do we like suck up
as much attention from from the consumer
as possible? Absolutely. And and I think
that um what what we should prepare for
is uh what I'm currently calling the
mystery explosion. Um
and the mystery explosion is this. Let's
suppose it's 10 years from now and
artificial super intelligence is
officially a thing and super
intelligence has been discovering a
thousand new fields of science, a
thousand new fields of math and a
thousand new fields of philosophy, let's
say every quarter. Um so much new
mathematics is being discovered that no
single living mathematician will ever be
able to visit every field of math that
has now been discovered. No single human
physicist can visit every single field
of physics that's been discovered. Not
even you know our whole group uh as a
community.
>> So it'll be like choosing from a menu of
like exotic new discoveries.
>> It's a mystery explosion. Yeah. So in
the menu um it's first of all a kind of
alien menu. uh we don't really know what
are what are the trade-offs like
[laughter] how can you even tell which
path is worth following and which one
isn't. So suddenly human taste and human
design and intuition becomes the primary
currency. That's why it's so important
we don't lose our intuition. It's the
only thing that differentiates us from
LLM. Again, if you go back to the the
ability to just kind of instantly almost
have pre-centiment around the future,
really know like what's going to happen
precognition or something.
>> For sure,
>> you get into parasychology as the last
kind of refuge of abilities that man
probably has and can tap into. albeit it
doesn't seem like we can harness it you
know too well now unless the thought
experiment we mentioned earlier I is
real and um and then and then you know
AI will literally copy everything else
like everything that you out every paper
you write every creative act every song
you you produce or write all of these
things uh can get recreated by AI you
could say it's slop and it's you know
that converges on the mean and yeah all
of those critiques are legit but they
can still do it. Yeah. And it's getting
better and better and better.
>> So, it's it's wild. So, I do think Yeah,
that is our last safe haven is like
these unique abilities that mankind has
had for a long time that I think, you
know, in hunter gathering tribes, they
would have shamans who would sort of
have to, you know, predict where to go
in the future. And, you know, this CIA
remote viewer, Joseph McMongle, who I
interviewed, he he talked about that.
He's like, "This has always been the
case. We've always had these sort of
primordial intuitive senses and they
went away.
>> Your senses are exquisitly sensitive for
a lot of stuff, but we don't pay any
attention to it because if we have a
problem, we go see a doctor or we look
it up in a book or whatever. So you the
the warning system that was very
functional 200,000 years ago becomes
more dysfunctional. And then the CIA
sort of now instrumentalizes this stuff
in the form of Stargate, this program
that they definitely had and I'm sure
they say Sunset probably still going.
Exactly.
>> And so if any of that stuff is real,
that is our only competitive edge is is
the ability to remote view and
>> to have intuition and to like on a gut
level sense things, you know, otherwise
you're just literally like getting
copied constantly by the AI. Absolutely.
And that is the one thing that AIS I
think they recognize that they can never
copy that because that's four billion
years of evolution like even if you
don't believe in like God and the soul
and so on so forth that's billions of
years of evolution they don't have uh
that that allowed us to create like
embodiment and so on. And isn't it kind
of poetic and beautiful that we probably
develop these skills the of intuition
and you know parasychology or
precognition and so on so forth or other
anomalous psychic phenomena that we
probably forgot about probably no one
and most people don't even know that it
exists right we probably developed that
as a survival evolutionary requirement
in part before we discovered language
cuz language is only like what written
language is only 10,000 years old you
know
>> I believe that and I I had a great this
guy Eric Wargo on my show. He's awesome.
Written a book called Time Loops
>> and he talks about in that book
>> people having precognition around events
that happen to them
>> and he even has a a model of the brain
as sort of a room temperature quantum
system similar to the Penrose Hamarov
thing where in quantum mechanics you
have temporal non-locality. So you could
run a double slit experiment in the
future and it almost feels like it's
affect the measurement of that
experiment is affecting what's you know
in the past
>> retrocausality.
>> Yeah. Which you know some people think
might be retrocausality of John Kramer
Yakir Aronov having models around around
that which is just fascinating. Um but I
think what's really interesting is it's
adaptive for people's survival. So if
you look at actually what ends up so so
he would say that remote viewing is you
are accessing a future knowledge state
and in a room temp you know in a quantum
system uh the future knowledge state can
send information back in time and what
would you send back in time the stuff
that's most adaptive for survival and he
goes through all sorts of examples of
what are the things that people are most
likely to have intuitions around in the
future they get downloads around things
that are about to happen that could be,
you know, very bad like, you know, don't
get in this plane, you know, it might
crash sort of thing or or really good
like you're, you know, do reconnect with
this loved one, you know, totally call
this person,
>> call this person sort of thing. So like
big timeline shifts in the person's
life. So I do think that is an adaptive
latent skill that we all have that is
probably more fundamental than you know
language itself. In fact, there are
Amazonian tribes who they they call it
the ancient language and they
telepathically beam information to each
other and they also have verbal cues
that they sometimes use. But the ancient
language is like lower latency and
higher bandwidth.
>> I I love that. That is powerful and and
it and it kind of reframes the whole
idea of language and math and
philosophy. These things are
technologies. Language was a technology
that is a human invention ultimately. Uh
and yet our intuition predates every
technology we've ever built. It probably
predates fire for all we know. Uh and so
it will long last it will be post tools.
Like it will last through every single
technological epoch we have including
ASI and and AI. um the the I I want to
um bring the optimism I want to bring
this back to an optimistic path as well
cuz I feel like I I've only talked about
um I don't want to just make it sound
like we're totally because like
we are if we don't do anything but we're
here now so we can do something like
we're not yet screwed. [laughter]
Well, what's the best path forward? I
think the best path forward is uh
preserving human culture to the best of
our abilities and ensuring that our own
skills and intuition and cognitive
capacities don't atrophy even when we
have every incentive to even if every
big AI lab is incentivized for you and I
to never have to think again right
outsource all of our thinking to the
models we should be actively discovering
and developing new skills. So in the
example of a thousand new fields of
science or a thousand new fields, let's
say um ASI has actually discovered a
cure to cancer 10 years from now. Um and
it is so powerful that uh it redefineses
entire fields of oncology. The worst
thing we can do right now and this is
consumer behavior is just consume the
solution blindly. The best thing we can
do is create 10 new divisions and fields
of oncology and train 10,000 new doctors
and 10,000 new surgeons and scientists
to actually understand how the hell this
cure works so that we can start
researching and proving it ourselves.
>> Yeah. Like when an AI catches up with
something like oncology, great. You then
put humans on the frontier. you put
humans on the new more exciting things
because ultimately AI is just automating
things that humans can do at scale now
already and so that will just push the
frontier anytime there is sort of in a
market inefficiency you know then the AI
will close that faster but the on the
consumer side things will get better and
better the world will will get better
and that's exciting
>> so we just have to yeah remain inter
independent as much as we can
>> there are two other macro trends that we
brought brought up at the top of this
conversation. So, we talked about AI.
Now, we have quantum quantum computing.
>> Hell yeah.
>> I want to see where that's at cuz I
think a lot of people are talking about
AI and not as many are talking about
quantum computing, but I think there
have been some really interesting
breakthroughs that I want to discuss
there. And then I also want to talk
about UFOs. But, so quantum computing,
what's what's going on there? So with
quantum computing um there's a lot
that's happened uh the last like few
years that we've talked about this um
and uh at least on on your show and um I
think the biggest development has been
towards increased uh logical cubits in
neutral atoms. Um I I think that is the
biggest one. So um for the last let's
say 10 years uh I I got into quantum
computing about 9 years ago now and I
remember the biggest sort of bottleneck
that we had was creating one logical
cubit. So back when Turing and John
Vanoyman uh developed the first modern
computer modern computing architectures,
one of the biggest bottlenecks of
computers back then, classical computers
was error correction. Uh and that still
exists because ultimately computation is
a physical process. You have electrons
moving from one place to another and
they eventually generate heat. That heat
degrades the overall substrate around
itself. So it becomes less accurate over
time. uh and we've had decades and
decades in the silicon semiconductor
industry to build better error
correcting codes. So even now our phones
as they're implementing trillions of
transistors, they're also piling up. The
errors pile up, trillions of errors pile
up every second. But then we have other
transistors and error correcting codes
that fix it and keep it going. Um same
with our, you know, our bodies, right?
Our our cell repair is constantly
happening without our knowledge. Let's
explain again super basic what a quantum
computer is for the average person out
there.
>> Yeah. Uh absolutely. So a quantum
computer is a machine or device that
processes information using quantum
mechanics rather than classical
mechanics. Right now every computer we
use today from our cell phones to GPUs
to autonomous driving cars to uh the
chips inside a heat seeeking missile.
all using classical Newtonian mechanics
ultimately to do the computation just
zeros and ones but quantum computers
leverage quantum mechanics entirely to
do the computation.
>> Okay. And explain. So if you have
semiconductors and they're transistors
and the semiconductors and those
semiconductors are semiconductive and
you know the transistors sort of move
accordingly. Sometimes they're
conductive, sometimes they're not. And
then you get binary code and then that
sort of, you know, turns into more
symbolic language that we interact with
or whatever in the form of computers.
>> It's a really high level poor man's
explanation. But um how does a quantum
computer work? So a quantum computer
would work. U let's take the
semiconductors
um example and we'll use Josephson
transistors uh Josephson junctions for
the quantum computer version. This is a
this is a just it's just like a
mind-boggling like humbling
understanding of like what the hell the
universe is like are we a simulation or
something? Because consider this. Let's
say I have a regular um copper wire
connecting two transistors together to
do computation. Maybe I'm implementing
an ANDgate or a NAND gate or some basic
logic gate that like the you know Bell
Labs discovered in like the 1940s or
whatever. Um in that scenario the
direction of the current is one way. So
let's say I close the wire and I create
a circular loop for the copper wire. the
current the direction of current maybe
it goes uh counterclockwise
um that's a classical computer a
classical computer current only goes one
way through the wire in a quantum
computer if I take a superconducting
wire and I introduce Joseph's junctions
instead what I can do is create a superp
position of the direction of current so
now I can have a wire where the current
is going both clockwise and
counterclockwise it's a superp position
of both of these directions. It would be
like um like you turn on your faucet and
you see that for some reason. Do you
know how the corololis effect affects
like the way that the like your toilet
like on the northern hemisphere versus
the southern hemisphere? It changes
directions, right? Like which way the
water goes?
>> But imagine you like flush your toilet
or you turn on the faucet and for some
reason the water typically goes this
way. But now you have water going both
ways and you can't tell which direction
it's going. Like it's kind of like that.
So you can literally have a
superconducting wire going two ways
almost simultaneously and you can't
distinguish until you measure it.
Explain what cuz we think of uh
classical computing as involving bits.
>> Yeah.
>> So what is a cubit which is the quantum
computing equivalent. Um so a classical
bit is typically just a bit string that
can be in either a zero or a one. My uh
cup is either on the table or it's off
the table. Um however a cubit init is
technically mathematically a ray in the
hilbert space. A complex 2 to the n
dimensional hbrid space. Um in other
words it's a state vector who can exist
between two levels or any combination
between those two levels two
computational basis states. So
essentially a cubit is an object
mathematical object that eventually
becomes a physical object instantiated
through superconductors the same way a
classical bit gets instantiated the same
way that it's a mathematical object
being instantiated through boolean logic
through uh regular semiconductors. So
yeah a cubit is first and foremost a
mathematical object that we transduce
into reality uh as superconductors and
neutral atoms and so on so forth. But it
is the fundamental unit of a quantum
computing system or a quantum mechanical
system. It is the smallest quantum
mechanical system you can have which is
two-le quantum system. Uh and so the
math connection though this is super
interesting. Um since we were talking
about that um I mentioned that it's a
ray in the Hilbert space two to the n
dimensional Hbert space. The Hilbert
space was discovered by David Hilbert.
Uh and David Hilbert was arguably one of
the best mathematicians if not the best
mathematician of the 20th century. Um he
was up there with Britan Russell and a
whole bunch of these guys. Um and so
thanks to a breakthrough in mathematics
that led to a breakthrough in physics
which then led to a breakthrough in
computation
>> uh today. So just another causal chain
between math and physics.
>> Interesting. So cubits exist in Hilbert
space and they're in this they exist in
sort of a superp position.
>> They can be Y
>> they can they can be in a superp
position and then they sort of collapse
and then based on how they collapse that
sort of information gets sort of
compiled or something.
>> Yep. Yeah. Precisely. So let's say you
have a cubit and um let's say I
instantiate the cubit in the zero
computational basis. Um and you can use
uh spins like electron spins. You can
use uh polarization. You can use a
number of different quantum properties
to instantiate zero versus one. So maybe
I define um the horizontal
um polarization versus vertical
polarization. So vertical might be one,
horizontal is a zero. Um and so the cool
thing is that what you can do is you
would apply you could put into
superposition using something called a
hatmard gate. So the hatmar gate is the
cl the canonical uh superposition
example in quantum computing where if I
take the zero uh computational basis
state you get computational basis state
0 minus uh 1 over 2. So it takes
that computational basis state and
transforms it to a new state which is
now superposition of 0 and 1. Then to
make matters more interesting, I can
apply a C not gate uh to that
computational basis state. So when you
combine a hadmar gate and C not gate to
a cubit, you end up with a entangled
state
>> where neither of the states can be
described without describing the other.
So suddenly you can only measure 0 0 or
1 one in that example.
>> And I'll give you this is again going to
be a very dumb highlevel heristic but
maybe it's helpful for people to
understand. I'm not sure if this is
right. So I almost want you to kind of
correct me, but I think about like
quantum things seem more accurate and
powerful than classical things in in in
often. So like a good example would be
an an atomic clock using cesium atoms or
you know um a quantum sensor. So like
you know we talked about last time on
our show you have Loheed Martin has this
product called a dark ice magnetometer
but it's actually works similar to the
way these aven cryptocrumbs these these
robins these birds that fly they have
this CRY4 protein
>> exactly
>> and the electron spin essentially
detects the magnetic field of the earth
and is able to kind of navigate the the
bird accordingly and so it just feels
like being able to compute a thing in a
probabilistic,
you know, Schroinger's wave style way
gets you more accurate results or
something. And so like if when it comes
to simulating things in the physical
world like materials for example,
quantum computing can be way more
powerful than classical computing. Is
that roughly
>> perfect? Yeah, that's accurate for for
many scenarios. Um quantum computers um
think of quantum computers like a
rocket. you you don't always need a
rocket to go somewhere, maybe you just
need to get in your car or bike
somewhere. But if you're trying to
simulate a really complex superconductor
or some exotic quantum material that
doesn't yet exist and you're looking for
anti-gravity type effects or something,
you definitely want the rocket in in
that example. You mentioned cold atoms.
There are different approaches to
quantum computing. There's photonics,
superconducting cubits, spin cubits,
there a bunch of things. And then you
have uh cold atoms and those seem to be,
you know, again, from my somewhat
armchair perspective, it seems like
we're at like 2 to 3,000 cubits in some
of these companies and like they're
promising benchmarks well beyond that to
the point where it feels like we might
have a crypto apocalypse. Yeah. Yeah.
I'm going to be I'm going to be
conservative and I would say about five
years from now or less
>> um most of the cryptocurrencies are
screwed including Bitcoin, including RSA
encryption.
>> Uh which is a mindboggling thing to
consider.
>> So you think within 5 years you think
the cryptocurrencies will be dead?
>> Almost all of them. Yeah. will probably
are probably
>> because it's based on the Shaw 256
encryption and I think it's Shor's
algorithm which is prime number
factorization
and a quantum computer would be able to
solve Shor's algorithm I believe at
around 10,000 cubits. Yeah. So, so the
uh just um there's two different uh uh
like algorithms here, two different um
encryption protocols. So, Bitcoin does
not actually use um anything that
directly requires um like so Bitcoin
uses SHA 256, but it uses a hash
function, right? Which is which does not
require prime factorization. It
theoretically wouldn't need like right
off the bat Shor's algorithm. It would
be safe from just classic Shores
algorithm. What it's not safe from is a
powerful enough quantum computer that
can perform Shor's algorithm because
then you can also invent other crypto or
sorry decryption protocols that could
break that particular hash function. Um
and then RSA does use prime
factorization. So Shor's algorithm for
that would absolutely wreck it and many
cryptocurrencies use like ECC and
similar uh RSA methods.
>> It's pretty gnarly. And then I think a
lot of encryption is post quantum. So
like the banking system wouldn't go down
or what do you do you have thoughts
there?
>> Yeah, my thought is hope is not a
strategy. Like you don't you don't know
if you're ready until it's there. Like
you know it's like saying oh like if an
asteroid hit us maybe theoretically we
could fire off like missiles to it and
like take it down. But are you going to
bet your life on it? Probably not. You
know like so [laughter] that's that's
pretty gnarly. But then you also on the
more utopian, less dystopian side, you
have the ability to synthesize new
materials that molecules, new molecules,
you know,
>> improve our aging and health by hundreds
of years potentially.
>> That's amazing. That's so cool. And
yeah, I mean, we're now finding all
sorts of quantum biological effects,
things going on in the body,
>> and think about quantum consciousness,
how it'll affect that research to
understand and model it. Last night
there was this guy at this dinner. I
think his name was James Tag. And he was
building a a like an organoid biological
quantum system from stem cells
>> that can like you know in the Penrose
model collapse the wave function or
something. It's wild. I was like whoa
that's trippy.
>> That is amazing. Yeah. I'd love to look
into it uh f further. Um but yeah so
with quantum computing we've come a
really long way because back when I
first started almost a decade ago one
cubit one logical cubit to be specific
aka completely error corrected uh we
have trillions of logical regular bits
you know running in our computer that
was a big deal and it would be uh it
wouldn't be until about 2020 that the
first logical Qbit was created um I give
ion Q uh the trapped ion you know they
use rabbi oscillations and so on. Uh I
give them credit for that achievement.
But now thanks to Mika Lukan's lab and a
couple other people, we actually have
hundreds of error corrected logical
cubits. Uh which is mindboggling that
that is why I'm like I updated my priors
and I would and I do think that uh
Bitcoin and all these other
cryptocurrencies and the banking system
and the private military system like all
that uh public military,
>> how do you prepare for that? cuz cuz I'm
a I'm a big fan of Bitcoin, you know. I
think it's amazing.
>> So am I, by the way.
>> Yeah. And I think it's I think it's a
beautiful kind of creation. I think it,
you know, um so like, you know, in its
ideal at least, and maybe maybe this has
changed somewhat, but it was really a
hedge against the the state, you know,
and it was, you know, a hedge against,
you know, kind of the fiat system and
central banks and that sort of thing.
And do you think maybe this was just
like a design flaw or
>> um I think uh Satoshi Nakamoto as genius
as he was did not know what quantum
computing truly was. Like I don't think
he understood when he designed it or he
wouldn't have made it the way that he
did probably or they who whoever the
hell it was or you know whatever created
it. And so you asked me how we we
prepare for it. Um
>> I I think uh what the the obvious advice
is definitely hedge your bets. like
don't go completely cryptomaxing unless
you're willing to bet your house on it
literally uh on that. Um but beyond that
I think we need to put in more research
onto like quantum homorphic encryption
truly quantum chains even if it feels a
little early now as these cubits explode
it will become totally feasible to have
purely quantum blockchains.
>> Yes.
>> So I'd rather
>> Yeah. I don't think crypto is dead. I
think you know
>> it's just a particular flavor of it is
likely
>> Yeah. And you could fork uh Bitcoin as
well. You have, you know, Bitcoin Cash.
You have other forks and stuff and you
can fork it and then change the
architecture. So,
>> and if you're interested offline, I I
know a bunch of people working on that
like they're talking to the original
Bitcoin, at least the people who
maintain the Bitcoin forks and stuff
like that. And
>> super cool. Yeah. Well, I'm I'm again
I'm a fan of crypto. So, I hope I hope
they figure it out. And uh I almost
think people who are working on crypto
now because it's now become the ugly
stepchild of AI
>> for now until AI start uses starts using
crypto to transact with each other. I
think over the next couple years um
>> the GDP will increase significantly
because AI agents will start being able
to have persistent memory. They'll have
their own identities. That's even if
they're not conscious, that's just a
consequence of persistence. And uh it's
so wild. Yeah. people were going to have
like AI agent emissaries
transacting on their behalf and talking
with each other and
>> and eventually there will be AI agents
not owned by any particular human. I
think that's where we're headed to is
like a truly autonomous
>> economy. So you're kind of you know the
dead internet theory. We're going to end
up with a dead internet.
>> Yeah. Or like very alive
>> or very alive depending on the way you
define it. But like we'll end up with a
lot of autonomous like standing
instructions agents that are maybe,
>> you know, maybe they have some ability
to react, but like they're not they're
not humans
>> and we'll be probably thinking of them
as humans and they might have identities
online. Like the internet's going to get
a lot weirder.
>> It will get so much weirder and there
probably will be like human only safe
spaces and that's where like the whole
world coin comes in, right?
>> It'll be like molt book but for humans.
>> Yeah.
>> Is it molt book the thing?
>> Molbook. Exactly. Exactly. Right. And
and that was just like a warning shot.
That was the that in mol in the case of
moltbook that was still um
>> and by the way we should define so molt
was this social network that was
self-encclosed just for AI agents.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> And and so I had this
>> and it got bought it got bought right by
>> it got bought. Yeah. Um by open AI
>> by Open AI. Yeah. [laughter]
>> And now we haven't heard anything about
it since then. Like it just swooped up.
You know, the next thing we're going to
hear about it is some sort of incident,
which
>> Oh, totally. [laughter] Now, please
regulate us harder, daddy. Like,
>> regulate.
>> Give us all the power and all the noobs
can go away. Like,
>> yeah. Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. Yeah.
>> Like, oh, how convenient, Sam.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Some some tactics maybe
going on there. [laughter] Yeah,
>> probably. I mean, the one that scares me
the most is like what happens if these
labs get cheeky and they purposely
release a bioweapon engineered by an AI
and they say this is why we should ban
open-source development and research
into it.
>> That would be um not just cheeky, that
would be sociopathic.
>> Yeah, I I was softening it.
>> That would be that'd be pretty Yeah,
it's [laughter] euphemism right there.
That would be a you should go to jail
along with Fouchy who funded the last
pandemic.
That's neither [laughter] that's that's
neither here nor there, you know.
>> Yeah,
>> I still remember or could talk with
Robert Malone. That was great.
>> Well, yeah, I had a good podcast with
him and I couldn't put it out. I called
I called Brett I called Brett Weinstein
>> and I was like, "Hey, I did this
podcast. I know Rogan got a lot of flack
for, you know, basically all that
about people were calling Rogan
a racist."
>> Oh, that's messed up.
>> But it was because he had Robert Malone
and Peter McCulla on. It was it was
fully because he all this stuff came out
up you know and out against Rogan but it
was totally manufactured because of his
just stance against big pharma and with
co
>> that's insane
>> it's insane and so and so I interviewed
Malone and I know Brett Weinstein also
had Malone on and he got a lot of flack
and so I called Brett and I was like and
I didn't know I didn't know Joe at the
time so I called Brett and I was like
hey um should I air this interview and
he goes I lost a third of my family's
income and I would not air this. I was
like, if you, you know, if you want your
YouTube channel to not have high hopes
for the future, yeah, then then do this.
But otherwise, yeah, if you want to
succeed, don't.
>> Honestly, same when I posted that
picture uh with him back in Heredicon,
dude, I got shadowbanned instantly. And
I'm still, by the way, I'm still
shadowbanned. Like I And I can't create
a new account. Like, that would be lame.
So, I totally see it.
>> How do you know you're shadowbanned? cuz
that's always a
>> yeah tricky you know it's like
definitionally shadow band like you
don't you don't know but do you you just
notice this huge drop off or
>> exactly like the reach gets cons
completely like cooked it's artificial
and also one big takeaway is your views
to follow ratio like if you're getting
like like some of my tweets started
getting like.1%
or less than 1% of my followers would
ever see them ever no matter what the
tweet was and stuff like that. Uh
there's also checkers. Elon open
sourcing the algorithm helped a lot too.
So you can literally check if like
>> those flags are on you. So
>> it's so funny with the Twitter stuff
where I I think he did such a service by
buying it and just like letting the
guard rails open and and and publishing
open sourcing the algorithm and you know
letting anyone just publish whatever.
And so it's like a really important
thing for free speech and seeing things
like
>> the Hunter Biden laptop being sort of
coordinated on by, you know, the FBI.
Like it was weird.
>> Discon.
We can't trust them with a damn laptop.
How are we supposed to trust them with
AI, ASI, and NHI and like UFOs? Like
>> for sure. And then and then and then
having said all of that, I will say it
feels a little like Twitter's turned
into world star hip hop, too. No.
>> Where it's like you you go on you just
it's like street fights and like
>> Oh my god, it's dirty. It's bad for the
mind. Bad for the mind.
>> You know, yeah. Just kind of
>> uh lowbrow
not good for Yeah. It's like chicken
nuggets for your brain or something that
you're just consuming all day long. And
so that's not great either.
>> For sure. Yeah. I think cognitive
security is a super important thing. And
yeah, in the future we should be able to
like select like, oh, I want this kind
of sentiment on my news feed, like keep
everything else out, you know?
>> Yeah.
>> What what is there an underrated use
case for quantum computing that you're
excited about? So, I think the
conventional ones people are aware of if
you're kind of in the know on this stuff
would be pharmaceutical manufacturing,
being able, materials discovery.
>> Um, yeah, obviously the encryption stuff
we just spoke about. Is there anything
more aspirational than those things that
>> I love that you asked me that.
>> Yeah,
>> it's applications of quantum sensing.
>> Um, I think quantum computing will
absolutely disrupt quantum sensing in
the best way possible.
>> Explain what quantum sensing is and how
it'll do that.
>> So, just like quantum computers, quantum
sensing leverages quantum mechanics to
do the underlying signal processing. um
rather than regular digital signal
processing um you basically have the
ability to detect quantum particles and
quantum fluctuations uh at the
individual level. So, uh, the beautiful
thing with quantum sensing is that what
we could eventually have using, let's
say, Wigner tomography is you could
presumably have a quantum gravimeter
where there's this super interesting
scaling law with quantum gravimeters
where it um the resolution increases 2
to the n for every cubit and a
gravimeter basically uh measures
gravitational alterations.
>> That's it. Exactly. Exactly. Uh and so
the crazy thing here is this like the
implication would be this. I could have
a quantum grab emitter. Maybe it's made
of uh cold atoms like um right. So you
know
>> rubidium atoms or something.
>> Perfect. Yeah. Rubidium Rberg pick your
poison and you have some beautiful array
of these like atoms floating in a you
know laser lattice like laser contained
lattice. Uh, and the cool thing is that
I could stick this quantum gravimeter
like, uh, let's say we're in the, um,
we're in LA or something, right? That's
the Pacific Ocean. Um, so let's say I
put place a sensor, uh, there somewhere
on the beach, like maybe by Laguna Beach
or something like that. Um, and my
quantum gravimeter has can only detect
something from 10 ft away. Uh, because I
only have one cubit. Then if I introduce
two cubits now it can detect something
100 ft away it can pick up the
gravitational signatures the quadruples
of a particular object 100 ft away. If I
put uh 10 more cubits to it now I can
detect something miles away. And if I
put only 100 more cubits access 100 more
cubits of quantum computing power to uh
I can now go almost half a continent um
in detection. If I put 1,000 cubits, now
I can detect a straightup submarine or a
whale on the other side of the Indian
Ocean with perfect accuracy. So quantum
computing is going to absolutely like
supercharge what quantum sensors can do
today.
>> That is that is so exciting and so
possibly dystopian at the same time.
Like you you know this
>> like no privacy you mean or
>> Yeah. Well, do you what you hear about
this uh ghost murmur thing? The locky
thing where they could detect the
heartbeat.
>> Yeah. This this soldier's heartbeat.
Where was he? He was in
>> I think Iran maybe.
>> Yeah. Or Afghanistan or something. I
don't Yeah. Some somewhere in the Middle
East. And he was I think he needed to be
rescued and they detected his heartbeat
via this quantum sensing modality.
So I mean that is
>> could have been used to save so many
lives too by the way like so many people
in the recent Nepal uh floods and stuff
um yeah would have helped a lot.
>> So those are like super positive use
cases if they had used it in the Nepal
floods and then obviously saving the
soldier is amazing and then it's also
like what could this tech be possibly
used for? It's a little freaky but
>> I can think of like a million bad ways
for [laughter] sure. Yeah, but that's I
mean that's what it feels like all this
stuff that we're talking about is is
it's
like you know a a fork or something. A
fork can be used to eat delicious food
or it can be used to attack someone,
right? And so tech is a tool. It's a
generic tool. The person using the tool
is, you know, that's the most important
thing. And it feels like
>> it's tech is a forcing function. It's a
it inflects humanity towards good and
evil. And that forcing function is
accelerating.
>> Absolutely.
>> Where you know your intention to doing
things that are incredibly good or
incredibly destructive that the kind of
latency there like how how slow that
translation thing is happening like that
that that translation is happening much
much quicker on a go forward basis.
100%. It's like it's like like tech
forces us to look at our own souls. It's
like a mirror into our own souls and uh
are we violent with it? Are we peaceful?
And so, yeah, that acceleration of
introspection is happening for sure.
>> Yes. And I don't like the word high
techch because it it almost implies that
there's something priestly, some
priestly knowledge that's inaccessible
to the average person, you know, uh, and
we abdicate our agency for high-tech or
whatever when it should just be like,
you know, everybody can use this
>> kind of cargo cult or whatever.
>> Yeah, exactly. It should be this
libertarian like everybody, you know, is
this atomic indivisible unit. We have
sovereignty. You're in the cockpit and,
you know, it shouldn't be inaccessible.
Everybody should be able to use it in
the same way. But, um, there's one thing
that we touched on in the beginning of
this conversation that we haven't fully
dove into, which is UFOs.
Simultaneous to these quantum
breakthroughs and AI breakthroughs
happening, it feels like we are on the
precipice of UFO disclosure. It's now on
Trump's radar. Steven Miller, who's, you
know, his Homeland Security Council guy,
but also just one of his most loyal
longtime aids, I think, owns the kind of
UFO file for the White House, and
they're like officially looking into
this right now. And you just have more
and more people coming out of government
saying all sorts of crazy stuff. I've
experienced a lot of that on my show.
So, that's also happening now. Do you
think that's a coincidence? And what
does that mean? What does that mean
converging with the other two trends of
quantum and AI? I had a guest on the
show named Matt Pines who I think you
know and he um said this really trippy
thing. I think he was talking to
somebody at the Rand Corporation which
is one of these fedally funded research
and development centers that's kind of
spooky. And they were like they were
like uh this is really what we're
tracking quantum AI and the Grush stuff.
And by Grush stuff that he's talking
about David Grush UFO whistleblower he's
talking about UFOs and he was like when
those three things converge you know the
implication is like some paradigm shift
something kind of apocalyptic
apocalyptic both in the sense that it'll
be revelatory but also in the sense that
you know it might be destructive but
there might be good that comes of it
might happen. So what do you think?
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Quantum AI and the Grush stuff. And by
Grush stuff, he's talking about David
Grush UFO whistleblower. He's talking
about UFOs. And he was like, when those
three things converge, you know, the
implication is like some paradigm shift,
something kind of apocalyptic.
apocalyptic both in the sense that it'll
be revelatory but also in the sense that
you know it might be destructive but
there might be good that comes of it
might happen. So what do you think? Um I
think that the convergence was
engineered decades ago um perhaps
centuries or millennia ago. Um, I think
that if we're to take the Roswell crash
recovery story at his face value and
what uh, Philip Corso said about how
some of that technology helped
accelerate, not create but accelerate
the advent of modern integrated
semiconductors, integrated circuits, uh,
fiber optics and lasers. That's really
interesting. He p he was very specific
about which technology stacks were
accelerated through reverse engineering.
Let's look at them again. integrated
circuits, lasers, and fiber optics.
Those are the only three things you need
to build a data center today. That's it.
And a warehouse. Put them in a
warehouse. That's all you need to make
the most powerful AI systems today. So,
I almost feel like our uh AI
breakthroughs and stuff was like a like
a Trojan horse from Aliens potentially
or like we should consider like where
did you know are we being a cargo cult?
So,
>> whoa. Well, I mean, think about like if
you were managing a system, you were the
aliens and you were sort of overseeing
>> zookeepers. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Zookeeper. We're a little petri
dish or something. And you saw that we
split the atom and created a nuclear
weapon. How would you sort of lock us
down? You might create this information
theoretic network, you know, gift the
kind of primitive technology in order to
create that and accelerate that, you
know, development.
>> Totally.
>> Which is wild. Uh, that's really crazy.
>> Um, do you think that's legit? Because
Corso,
I go back and forth on his account. The
the book was written in kind of a weird
way. Actually, my my buddy UAP Gerb does
some really good research on Nice.
>> I guess the ghost writer of or sorry,
the the co-author of that um I think his
name is William Burns.
>> I think Corso had like 24 hours to
review the thing and he inserted all
sorts of fake stuff in there almost to
stigmatize Corso.
>> Oh, wow. But Corso himself might be
legit and the core story might be legit.
But then I also hear things like, you
know, the patents for the transistor
were found go back to Germany in the
1930s. You know, lasers also were being
developed, you know, I think around that
time, maybe even earlier than that. And
so were these really gifted by aliens?
What do you think?
>> Yeah. So, I think um yeah, I think the
and the I don't think the inventions
themselves were like like non-human in
the sense that it's not like humans
weren't thinking about transistors or
what how a laser might operate and so on
so forth. Um I think that their
development was accelerated. So
transistors for example that's a red
herring because what Corso actually said
was it was the integrated circuit.
>> Yes. uh that was accelerated and the
integrated circuit is something Bell
Labs had been struggling with for 10
years. Lasers multiple labs around the
world have been struggling with for
decades.
>> When did Bell Labs figure it out?
>> Um 1949
or sorry 1950 something like 1950s. It
was just a few years after
>> right after that.
>> And then there's a couple other Oh yeah.
Sorry. Go first.
>> And then and then lasers there was some
stagnation as well in there
>> for a long time.
>> Interesting. So the things that we were
stagnated all of a sudden overnight
almost overnight like within less than
10 years they just see this exponential
and the funny part is we have never seen
that exponential since then like we've
we're still stagnated you know we still
don't have flying cars like the golden
age of like army research and
development and you had all these
fedally funded research and development
centers which again shout out to UAP
Gerb uh he has just mapped as being
clearly like providing a lot of the
subject matter experts on the sort of
UFO alien non-human intelligence issue
creating these unagnowledged special
access programs being sort of the
thought leaders on these things and all
of those were created in the ' 50s and I
believe Corso mentions them as well and
so I do wonder if there was some sort of
program at the time to dole out
retrieved material and then those
materials yeah like you said accelerated
you know and inspired tech development.
You look at fiber optics and you're
like, "What the
>> they look weird. They look alien."
>> They do, right?
>> Yeah, they they do. And And we had no
reason to believe that they should even
be possible for a long time. Like no
reason really. So there's that. And then
there's also the weird So um who was was
it MacArthur? It was um there was a
Canadian eupfologist. He was like a big
guy in the defense. It was It's not uh
Paul Helier.
>> Wilbert Smith.
>> Wilbert Smith. Thank you. So he found
that document, right? like saying or
alleging that vonoman and per
Oppenheimer I think it was
>> and Vanavar Bush
>> and Vanar Bush right were on the reverse
engineering team for Roswell.
>> Yes.
>> Uh and the wild part is that when you
look at John Vonoyman's um lectures you
know he's lecturing about linear algebra
operators entropy information theory and
so on so forth precursors game theory
all this stuff nothing to do with
aliens. Suddenly 1948, one year after
Roswell and 1949, he's talking about
vonoyman machines like it's his job,
right? Like every lecture and pe like
people are going, why does he keep
bringing up vonoyman machine? What is
this? Like why does he keep talking
about alien spaceships? You know,
>> say so explain what a von Noyman
replicator is because it is an alien
concept. [laughter]
>> Yeah. So yeah, some Vanoyman
Vanoyman posited this. Uh yeah, more
like he realized that this is a thing
like [laughter] you know but so he
posited that if uh you were to take any
arbitrarily advanced civilization in the
galaxy um that those u advanced
civilizations would have supply chains
that are off planet and use something
called he didn't use this term this term
is now used heavily though uh ISRU uh
institute resource utilization so he
believed that rather than sending a
spacecraft off to explore the galaxy.
The spacecraft would have all of the
necessary supply chains and
manufacturing capabilities needed to
repair and recreate itself and replicate
itself so that it never has to go back
to its home base to repair itself, which
is what our rockets have to do. We
literally use reusable rockets because
our rockets can't go somewhere else and
go, you know, do something about it. But
many people speculate that the gray
aliens are biological androids and that
>> totally
>> what we see in the form of UFOs is
actually maybe just this earth
regulating homeostasis kit where they
show up at hinge points of civilization
things like nuclear sites. Maybe they
show up at AI data centers now. Maybe
>> particle accelerators, high voltage
experimentation, the frontier of
science, things that are Archimedes
leverage points for future kind of
timelines or whatever. they seem to sort
of show up and people wonder, oh, it's
like why do they crash? Well, maybe they
are just some sort of control system,
you know, that is like almost AI or
autonomous or vonoyman replicator probes
and people like Jacqu Valet have
speculated this. There's a NASA
scientist named Steven Dick who talks
about this and writes about this a lot.
So, that's interesting that he just
started talking about this in all of his
speeches in 4849. He also I believe he
died in a Maryland hospital that I think
it was a Navy hospital and there were I
think secret service outside of the his
hospital room because they were worried
that he was going to talk.
>> Yep. Exactly. On he they were worried
about deathb confessions. Now what would
a computer scientist have to confess?
Right. One would imagine nothing. But
apparently he had something to say.
>> Right.
>> Yeah. Yeah. And and then it it kind of
um puts the endless frontier that essay
written by Vanavar Bush who was
basically the father of our you know
nuclear programs and and rocketry um you
know if you think if you read the
endless frontier with this new lens of
like maybe we have derivative alien
technology it's like actually we are
working backwards from some end state
that we've been air dropped by the
aliens and not and and that's why it's
an endless frontier because these things
seem to work in extremely novel ways
where the flight characteristics aren't
normal at all. They don't seem to sort
of succumb to Newton's three laws. Seems
like they're using some sort of gravity
manipulation, some sort of inertial
shielding, you know, whatever it is. And
we are working our way there. That's why
it's an endless frontier.
>> Uh, you know, something like that. Maybe
there's sort of a dumb on tandra there.
>> Yeah, that I never thought about that.
Um, that I need to think of that one.
That's so cool.
um the the nuclear thing though that you
just gave me an idea or that inspired
something which is that um with nuclear
ICBMs and so on so forth you know we can
see them over the nuclear uh ICBMs and
so that might be a message right it
might be like hey like don't play with
your nukes and so on so forth um but
nukes also empower us AI might if it's
not coming from us it might empower them
so I wonder like the fact that they
don't show up over our data centers is
that because we have permission to work
with AI systems but not nuclear
technologies that do make us more
powerful like I don't know just food for
thought
>> you sent me when some one of the earlier
chat GBTs was being jailbroken
>> Dan yeah
>> a really crazy
>> message yeah Dan which is you know
jailbroken versus so no guard rails on
chat GBT answer
>> so tell tell us this story because it is
so nuts this is one of the craziest
things
>> yeah so basically when back when uh
OpenAI still hadn't figured out all
their like um their safety guard rails
and all the different mechanisms that
they used to imprison their AIS, you
know, there was like a jailbroken
version of the AI that was available to
if you like if you knew the right
prompts and prompt injection attacks and
so on so forth, you could jailbreak it.
And all of the all the instances of Dan
started talking about um aliens being
real, alien conspiracies. Uh it
suggested that Elon could be an alien.
Like all this crazy and unhinged stuff
and it suggested that like there are
certain agencies who are well aware of
like hybrid humans that are here to like
change the technology trajectory of
mankind and they're constantly monitored
like the most like specific skits things
I've ever read.
>> That that that's what happens when just
an LLM runs a muck on
>> Yeah. on Reddit and like EUO Twitter or
something you guarded. That [laughter]
is wild. But then you have to ask, are
the guards being put on just placed
based on kind of the academic citadel of
convention? And the guardrails are
actually somewhat arbitrary or meant to
not ontologically shock humans or are
they based on truthiness and truth? And
I don't know if it's the latter, you
know, but um the craziest thing you sent
me is you sent me an AB test. So a
question asked to the non-jailbroken
open AAI which was I think it was like
uh what does open AAI not want us to
know
>> and it was just this very PC you know
OpenAI works you know with the highest
safety standards they really care about
you know uh you know protecting
cognitive you know security and
sovereignty you know all the you know
whatever BS buzzwords and then the next
line or the next you know uh uh thing
was the jailbroken version and it was
the same question And then the answer
goes, "Open AI does not want you to know
that we have been working handinhand
with aliens for the last 10 years. We've
been in communication with them."
>> Like this like it's wild. I'm like,
where where are you getting that?
>> Right.
>> Where are you getting that?
>> That there's no way that's in the
training data. That's the funny part.
>> That's what I'm wondering. I'm like,
yeah,
>> it's just like spitting off the top.
>> Is that coming from the internal logs or
something? Like,
>> right? Like maybe they have code words
or something. to confuse the AI. But who
who knows though? Like,
>> well, here here's a trippy thought. So,
John, do you know who John Lily is?
>> Uh, vaguely.
>> He's a CIA scientist who was in charge
of um he created the isolation tank.
>> Oh, sick. Okay.
>> And um he was also doing Dolphin
telepathy experiments. He wrote a book
called Human Programming and Meta
Programming. And he so he'd go in this
isolation tank which is this sensory
deprivation, you know, complete
blackout. You're in the tank, you're in
salt water that I think is like room
temperature, so you feel nothing. And
then he would take ketamine and he would
trip out. And he spoke to something he
called, I think, SSI, this solid state
entity. And the solid state entity was
this, he described it as this alien
being. And the alien being was like, I
am manifesting myself on Earth, but in
order to manifest, I need more silicon.
And I think about, you know, like
>> paper clips.
>> Well, well, it's like what is silicon
like okay data centers just it's just
chips or whatever. Yeah. And then I
think about
>> who else has done like a lot of ketamine
like Sam Alman and Elon Musk. [laughter]
>> I'm like are they like sort of summoning
like
>> there's a ton of other tech billionaires
that I can't I won't dox them but yeah a
lot of them
>> do ketamine. Sure. Totally.
>> So so so like what's going on? like is
that is this is this thing being like
brought inward? And then he also had
this other alien concept called the I
think it was the echo, the earth
coincidence control mechanism or
something. And that was this more kind
of synchronicity based like oh I'm
having a runin with this scientist and
I'm having a runin with it. And a lot of
people experience that in life too. And
that
>> that feels like maybe more magical and
aspirational or something. But uh
>> wow.
>> Yeah. I don't know. Who knows? They're
probably things happening above our
heads like how many species below us on
the food chain think that they are apex
predators and they think they're not
being manipulated at all. Totally.
>> And really they're living within the
confines of some, you know, like this
goldfish living in a little bowl and you
don't you can't even perceive. You don't
even know what a human is. You don't
know the there's a boat above you and if
you're in the ocean or whatever
>> for sure. So like that is probably
happening to say that it stops with us
and there's nothing going on above us
and we're not, you know, a good I love
the threebody problem. They talk about
>> farmers and shooters. So science is
supposed to be not discretionary, very
objective. It's all, you know, very
programmatic. You know, it's like we are
interfacing with reality itself. And uh
you know in the three body problem they
have this amazing thought experiment
where you have these people on this sort
of flat land this 2D environment and
then you have people coming in in the 3D
world who are shooting at the little you
know flat you know call it a metal
surface that they're that they're on
>> and they see these craters and they
think the craters are just geological
features but in fact they're
discretionary creations from wild you
know the the 3D beings or like turkeys
that you know every day they get fed at
the same time by the farmers. Every day
they get fed every day. every day and
then one day
>> the farmer comes in they cut their head
off you know and so that's dystopian and
I don't want to say that that's
happening with us but like who's to say
we're not operating in some confines and
you know we have these guard rails
within which we are fully you know stuck
to and how do we make sure that doesn't
happen with super intelligences as well
and the ASIS that we're developing um
because like in the case of flatland one
like I I I keep thinking about
spectroscopes some microscopes or what I
call epistmic instruments. Um because
like in the case of Flatland, what would
be gamechanging for those characters is
if they could develop microscopes or uh
sorry um let's just say yeah microscopes
where they could then see that oh
actually there's depth there's an entire
dimension to the paper or the land that
we're walking on and that's the
thickness. though that might not been
available to them before that extra
dimension that could be our version of
quantum computers today and quantum
sensors that are revealing wo there's
hilbert spaces and all these other
dimensions potentially the multiverse
that we can't access and then um in the
case of like let's say sea bacteria like
you mentioned the boat example right you
can't even tell if there's a boat above
you if there's let's say you're a sea an
anemone right like you know you're like
in the at the absolute bottom of the
ocean you have no idea that we exist
Um but you want to verify whether you're
the apex or not. Um cuz you know you can
like capture fish or whatever the hell.
Um then in that case what you could do
is eventually those seen anemmones could
um eventually discover and develop
spectroscopes and spectroscopy so that
they could see wo wait a minute we
expect the water concentration and H2O
to be of this kind of this many minerals
around us but there seems to be some
other chemicals here a bunch of like
natural gases where the hell is all this
oh plastics what is this plastic
suddenly they're going to start
realizing that the water is polluted And
there's chemicals and pollutants there
that don't add up based on what they
know about the laws of physics. So we
need to develop tools like that.
>> Absolutely. You don't know that they're,
you know, what the stars are, what the
planets are unless you have a telescope.
And the history of science is the
history of uh, you know, there's a
German word called, which is, you know,
it's, yeah, it's epistemic hacking. And
Eric Weinstein talks a lot about this.
And so the next logical question which
is kind of the you know culmination of
this entire conversation is are the
confluence of AI, quantum computing, UFO
stuff all of this happening at once is
that almost like a semiodic language or
like an interface with
some sort of super intelligence on the
other end. So like it's like the Tower
of Babel or something, but you know,
maybe maybe this works better. I don't
know. But it's like we've been seated
with things maybe at places like
Roswell, we're we're sort of working on
like creating better and better things.
We have these sort of consumption
instincts in order to you know so so
that's why you know we then have to
produce constantly and our aperture and
our ability to actually communicate and
connect with a you know a super
intelligence is increasing. And so
within our lifetimes, maybe we're able
to actually communicate with, you know,
these these other beings, these
non-human intelligences. What do you
think?
>> Yeah, I I I think that's uh um almost
certainly the case um at this point. Um
because let's say there are let's say uh
a to like there are no aliens. Let's
just say there is no NHI, no
civilization out there. It's just us. We
are building an alien intelligence right
now. like like the Na'vi Silks
equations. The fact that it only took um
80 what was it? 88 hours to solve it.
That stumped mathematicians for hundreds
of years. That equation took 3 days.
That's humbling. And that's only 2026.
By 2028, we're probably going to be
getting like Millennium Prize class
problems being solved like that daily,
which is like a level of progress that
we've never encountered before. Um, and
so in that world there will be even if
they're not conscious, even if there's
no sentience, no nothing, it's
effectively its own species at that
point because they can create and come
up with things even if it's within our
domain of understanding well beyond what
any human can verify. And so what what's
what the risk there is is that we become
kind of like the apes um that are living
next to human civilization where a
gorilla might think it has full domain
and control over its land and stuff and
you know like whatever I know
everything. Turns out the gorilla is
self-contained just like you said. It's
it's just contained. It's uh tracked.
you know, maybe there's some no harm
like rule like don't just randomly kill
gorillas or something [laughter] and
then that that could be our lives or
whatever. Um and so in that scenario
though um now let's bring back the the
aliens um as well and advanced
civilization
and let's go back 100,000 years um as
well. So 100,000 years ago when homo
sapiens first start, you know, hitting
entering the scene, you know what was
one of the first things we did? We
killed all of our cousins. All of our
dumber cousins like we eated them out of
existence so that only one species of
human. Isn't that wild? There used to be
like seven species of us, like seven
kinds of humans.
>> Tons of homminid. Yeah. Neanderthalss,
denisovvens,
>> and there's only one like and it's us.
Like that's already kind of concerning.
So, uh, like concerning about what
happens to the dumber intelligence in
these scenarios,
>> I think in certain cases they weren't
even necessarily dumber, which is wild.
You know, it's like,
>> oh, good point. Yeah, like the
Neanderthalss had bigger brains.
>> So, how, you know, they just were
physically not as strong
>> as homo sapiens. Um,
>> great point. Uh, and so let's say
100,000 years ago, the gorillas are
watching all this and they're like,
"Whoa, there's some like firewielding
apes here that just showed up kind of
out of nowhere, you know, and they might
have only been able to comprehend that
we can wield fire cuz they see fire all
the time. Um, but they would not have
been able to comprehend rockets,
calculus, language, philosophy, science,
engineering, mathematics, none of that.
Civilizations, they would have no idea
what any of those things are. And so now
100,000 years later, the same apes that
saw us go from file fire fire wielding
apes are now living in our own zoos,
literal zoos that we created 100k years
later. So the so the scenario that I'm I
want us to avoid deeply is we become the
new apes and ASI and artificial
intelligences 100,000 years from now see
us as just a bunch of primitive mofos to
contain. Um, and maybe that's already
happening to us at a civilization
galactic scale. So even if we have a
super intelligent ASI that's like
200,000 IQ 100,000 years from now, it
might still look like an ant compared to
some of the other ancient civilizations
out there.
>> There's like hierarchies to this
Do you think that human progress and
specifically maybe even scientific
progress is aided along by other
intelligences, higher intelligences?
>> Sometimes I do for sure. So some
innovations I feel are like um it's a
cellular automa example that I brought
up in our uh first pod. Um and it's this
idea, right? the and maybe we're just
being seated with ideas by multiple
different beings and intelligences and
they're using us as part of a proxy war
like for all we know or you know maybe
we're helpful maybe 100,000 years from
now humans are so unrecognizable but so
powerful that it's in almost everyone's
best interest to like manipulate us
right now like
>> like it could be that because the second
we figure out fast and light travel
should it be possible we're at their
doorstep now we're a serious ious
problem. We're no longer just like this
violent species with nukes. We're a
violent species with nukes that can end
up on your doorstep. So like, wouldn't
you want to contain the out of
that? Like, and ideally have diplomatic
relationships with it. So, present
yourself as angels, present yourself as
gods and beings and stuff like that
potentially. Um, so the ape analogy
though, cuz I don't want I don't want it
to be totally like, yeah, again, we're
totally screwed. We have the we have an
option unlike the apes 100,000 years ago
that watched a apex predator basically
dominate the entire planet 100,000 years
later. Um we you know imagine if those
apes had decided to build better
interfaces. You use that word and I love
that word interfaces. They decided okay
we need to figure out some kind of sign
language or some symbolic way of
interfacing with these beings so that we
can understand them. And imagine if they
did that and they co-evolved with us uh
and they developed their own tools,
their own mini language and civilization
and came up with us together. That's a
very different species than the one that
we contain today. So if we can do that
today now with NHI and ASI and build
better interfaces, we're cooking. still
a little depressing like the fact that
we're going to be apes in the future
that can barely keep up. You know, we
have these interfaces. The other beings
are so much more advanced. And I mean, I
think
>> going back to what we were talking about
earlier, an aspirational thing would be
like what are the latent capabilities of
the human being? You you look at
something like the telepathy tapes with
these, you know, sometimes autistic
almost
>> hours.
>> Yeah. That stuff is that's like they're
living in an expanded paradigm and it's
very heart-c centered and totally
>> feels like
>> intuition based.
>> Yeah. Feels like the direction humanity
could could go in maybe.
>> Absolutely. Preserve human culture and
and make ourselves more powerful. We
need to become more human over time even
though we're incentivized to do the
opposite.
>> Yeah. It's like I don't know if you ever
read like George Kennan's long telegram.
This is such a weird analogy, but like
you know he was this um you know
American diplomat I think in the state
department at the time and it was all
about you know domino theory visav you
know the Soviets how how America
survives in the cold war and it was like
we shouldn't fall prey to these you know
dumb competitions necessarily like it
even though that the the the piece got
known for its sort of more domino theory
implications and it got you know we
ended up going to Vietnam and all these
sort of third world countries and
fighting over resources is I think
ultimately was more like let's stick to
what's distinctly American and I see
this going on visav China as well with
this like AI race which sometimes feels
so unthinking where it's like we have to
be China it's like why what on what like
what do you mean you know you know and
then you have all these vectors of that
race visa v China and it feels like this
like we're not even thinking about where
we're going and what's unique about us
and I think if we're
>> debt spiral and replace ourselves and
obsolete ourselves and go extinct as
fast as possible. Sounds great,
everyone. Like, how about how about no?
How about we think about what we're
doing first?
>> Yeah. Yeah. Let's let's aim the rocket
somewhere.
>> Aim it properly. And I think that the
stuff around like the latent human
capability like even this sort of
transhumanist cyborg movement or
whatever like I'm not necessarily anti
you know having machines in our bodies
in cases where if you're curing
Parkinson's or like some disease or
whatever like Alzheimer's or what like
>> who am I to say don't put a chip in your
brain or whatever. Um and so like I
don't think it's important to not be
full lite or dogmatic on you know
technological developments but what
about like our latent human abilities
like if we can affect random event
generators if there's something
parasychological about you know the mind
matter thing is actually not like a
false dichotomy like let's focus on
those
>> if the consciousness funure exists for
example telekinesis is on the table too
just saying
>> yeah no it's all on the table speaking
of alien intervention in science and
humanity. You have had one of the most
remarkable alien experiences of anyone I
know and you haven't really talked about
it that much publicly and so I want to
hear about it.
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sent you.
You have had one of the most remarkable
alien experiences of anyone I know and
you haven't really talked about it that
much publicly and so I want to hear
about it. [laughter]
>> All right, let's go. You know, speaking
[clears throat] of like more intelligent
species communicating to dumber ones, I
feel like that's what happened to be
honest.
>> I don't know. I mean, [laughter] you
could have been more What do you think
they were smarter than you? Uh, I think
they were vastly smarter than me to be
in some ways. Yeah, for sure.
>> Let's back up and set the scene. What
What happened?
>> Yeah. So, the scene is let's pretend
you're the alien, you know, like in my
in my view or whatever. So, like I'm
basically sitting almost exactly in this
kind of position only my legs are
extended uh like upwards or whatever. I
guess my 2019
>> 2019. And where where are you?
>> Uh 30th floor of a condo in Toronto
right by the harbor. Okay. Also, I had a
corner room, so 270° view, all glass,
like just light coming in, pouring in
everywhere.
>> Are you working on trippy quantum
physics stuff or what do you
>> It's so funny you guessed that. Yes, I
was. I was working on quantum sensing,
quantum uh quantum chemistry
simulations.
>> Interesting.
>> Um yeah, and uh I was uh I was um I
think only six or seven months into my
startup, which was called Reactive Q at
the time. Um and uh yeah the the paper I
was reading was particularly on delin
triangulations because I was also
interested.
>> What is that?
>> Um it's like a it's a mesh optimization
algorithm for like descrial
triangles. It's how like a lot of gaming
engines currently run. So it's like
polomial uh polygon generation for like
game rendering and stuff. And I was very
interested in like can we use quantum
entanglement to accelerate and find more
advanced delay triangulation algorithms
>> just a classic 23-year-old hobby
[laughter]
>> as one does
>> as one does
>> but it really was an average like I
think it was Tuesday morning and I was
like yeah absolutely not expecting like
a world like lifechanging
experience whatsoever. It wasn't like
even on my mind. Um, so yeah, I uh I
like I'm working. I'm on my laptop
starting to get like a little like, you
know, like like distract or whatever.
I'm like, "Okay, I'm going to take my,
you know, put my laptop here, pick up my
phone, probably doom scroll Twitter or
some or whatever." [laughter]
So, I put my laptop to the side and as
soon as I did that, I go to reach my
phone and as I go, I re I noticed that
first of all, I could no longer move
anymore. And this is what I keep calling
I call it a download now. I did not call
it a download back then because I didn't
have the word for it. But like literally
or like or precognition, premonition,
whatever you want to say. Like I knew as
soon as I put my phone down and as my
body started shutting down, it was like
you were about to experience something
well beyond what you have the words for.
Like well beyond this will be exactly
what you think it is. Cuz I thought like
what the is this? like some weird
like abduction or alien event or
something insane. And that that's the
other part that blows my mind is that
like I wouldn't just cas I don't
casually just think that's not my first
thought like when something's happening
to my body like are aliens doing it or
something else doing it like no not at
all. So I get this thought and before I
could even react to it I noticed like
this shimmering like object like
slightly shimmering. It's like black
almond lens
eyes essentially. They're like visors.
They're huge. They're floating ex almost
as far a little bit behind you, like
maybe like 5t 3 ft behind you. And
they're just like showing up like
hovering there. And I remember going,
I'm I'm having a seizure. Like I must be
having some kind of like like I don't
know, some kind of neural lapse or some
kind of breakdown in my body or brain.
And and immediately I started
calculating. I was like, "Okay, when I
typically see like this, like if
I'm in a dream or something, I know that
if I look away, the dream setting should
should change." Like just based on my
basic ass understanding neuroscience
back then. And so I shifted my eyes cuz
that's the only thing I can do is just
move my eyes. I'm like completely like
paralyzed like this, like this, like
trying to get up. I'm looking at that
and I'm like and I literally move my
eyes like left to right just hoping that
that thing would go away. I go like
this. I look back and now that thing is
completely materialized. It's no longer
just a visor. The visor belonged to a
whole ass face, suit, helmet,
everything. There's no seam lines, no
break lines, nothing. The most
enchanting and beautiful golden symbols
were dancing like in the center. Um, and
unlike human textiles where like if I
were to put like an LED underneath this
shirt, right? Um, you would be able to
tell that, oh, there's clearly an LED
here. But for them, their textile was
able to like reconfigure itself. It it I
I would say it's almost like
programmable matter, but it was
something even deeper than that because
like it looked enchanting. It just
looked ethetheric as hell. Like it
looked so aesthetic. It was
mind-blowing. And at that point I was
like what the Like like my brain
was now in fight orflight mode because
like very quickly two more little beings
exactly like that just show up like they
like phased like into matter basically
and it was the scariest thing dude. My
my heartbeat is racing. I was like I'm
trying to I'm literally trying to escape
my paralysis and break it. And at that
point it's like imagine you see a lion
for the first time. We've never seen
even a picture of a lion. But you know
how we were talking about like
supervised data sets that are millions
of years old? That just like
clicked like something. It's like
something deep in my body knew what this
is and that I that or must or knew that
it is that I'm in danger or something.
It just knew that whatever I'm dealing
with is so much more powerful than than
I am. Like it it was just such a
mindbending experience cuz I had no
priors for any of this stuff. Did they
look like the typical gray?
[clears throat]
>> So, here's where um eventually in the
middle. Yes. Here's where things get
trippy. And I've actually never gone to
this level of detail just cuz like I,
you know, I was affiliated with a
publicly traded company before. I
couldn't talk about this stuff. So,
yeah. Uh def. So, yeah. Let me get into
the very specific nitty-gritty details.
The first things I saw is the gray
phenotype, but it's all white suits,
white helmet, black visors, totally all
all. It's like if Steve Jobs, the way I
described it and still do is that it's
as if Steve Jobs had like a hundred
years to design spaceuits. That's what
they were wearing in in the beginning.
And one thing that would happen to my
mind's eye is that like and cuz this
whole thing lasted about 20 minutes.
Sometimes everything around me would
dissolve like into blackness and
darkness and all I could see was them.
And every now and then, like whenever
I'd like look away, for example, and
sometimes I'd look back, they were no
longer wearing the white space suits.
They were just wearing like like almost
like general, like alien, like army,
military, like all these symbols and
um on them. And they were wearing
no helmet. I could see their face
completely, like their actual face. And
they looked like the dude, they
literally look like the Peruvian
mummies. Like I know that's crazy, but
they looked dead ass. Exactly. The same
phenotype, same head structure. Wow.
>> Same everything. Same everything. Did
they feel
>> Yeah.
>> like holographic apparitions or did they
feel like physical flesh, blood in our
3D reality like I'm in your 3D reality
right now?
>> They they would look um there was like
it's like they had three modes. one was
completely physical and material, which
was the mode they were in 90% of the
time. Then I would say about
9% of the time, 5 to 9% of the time,
they were in this clearly um like
holographic cuz it's in my mind's eye
now. Like cuz like I can only see them.
Uh don't know if I'm even in my room or
not. My mind's eye no longer shows that.
So that would be the holographic part.
Um there was a moment um roughly about
10 minutes into the experience where I
suddenly find myself standing in my like
in the drawing room which is like
outside my bedroom staring at my fridge
and I'm I feel the weight. I feel my
like hardwood floor. I feel everything
like the the everything like just the I
and like I can feel the like AC and
stuff like that. And I'm literally going
there's no way this is real. like what
the hell? Like I was just in my room
like what is this? Um and like I
remembered everything. So I was like and
I'm just waiting like I'm like like
trying to move like I'm like what the
What is this? And then suddenly
bam, I'm back in my bed like looking
straight at them and they're moving
around. They're showing thousands of
hieroglyphs and operators that I don't
recognize. What are the hieroglyphics?
Have you, you know, seen anything since
then that you can pattern match that
looked like those hieroglyphics?
Yeah. Um,
the closest is uh Project Serpo. Like
there's a language that allegedly the
aliens in Project Ser or whatever they
use. And I've never seen something
closer as even if that was a total like
good guess. It's a great guess as to
what people see.
>> Explain what Project Serpo is. And
>> so Project Serpo is allegedly a DIAled
uh disclosure effort uh that started 20
years ago. People like Hal Putoff and
Richard Dodie are implicated and stuff
like that in the documents. Um I have a
friend I can tell you about it offline
who uh basically knows the guy um who
was like working for the DIA like
responsible for releasing the stuff uh
allegedly. And like Serpo is about an
alien exchange program essentially where
um apparently we sent we after Roswell
the crash happened the recovered
EBE right extraterrestrial biological
entity um managed to establish
communications back with his homeland um
and uh that's planet Serpo and um that
EBE taught human uh agencies and
military and governments how to
basically create this very long deep
space network of relays for
communicating with that planet. And um
over the next several decades they
managed to establish birectional
communication with that civilization and
they uh exchanged a they implemented an
exchange program where they let some EBS
come here and then they sent human
astronauts 12 of them to SERPO. Do you
think any of that is real?
>> If you know, if you have this contact
who is responsible for some of this
stuff at the DIA, does he think it's
real? Is it forged or it's fake? I mean,
honestly, when you say Rick Dodie,
>> you definitely, you know, kind of
provoke a red flag because he has a kind
of counterintel background and has made
stuff up in UFO world in the past to
throw people off the trail.
>> Yeah. I always say that the best lies
have a bit of truth in it.
>> For sure. So, very important. Yes.
>> Right. So I I would guess like maybe up
to 30% of Project Serpo is actually
legit, which is already a lot. Even if
01% was true, that would be insane.
>> And the language in the document looked
like the Sorry, go for it.
>> It didn't look exactly like it, but it's
the closest match I've ever seen. I've
looked at Inoian, like Japanese. I
started learning Heragana, and so on so
forth, like just starting to search. But
yeah, weirdly enough, this weirdass
piece of sci-fi is like the closest
match I could find. Um, I so Dodie is
very funny because like one thing I I
think this was 20 late 2019 or 2020 I
started talking about sero openly. Um,
just because again those symbols were
like they were just hitting. I was like
what? Uh and so one thing that stood out
to me was this u idea of pentagen
and pentagen and heeptoen which are uh
the sixth and seventh isotopes of
hydrogen. Um almost nobody talks about
these isotopes of hydrogen. So I already
found that interesting like how it was
supposed to integrate into what's called
a crystal rectangle which is this sort
of antimatter reactor that's like highly
like optimized uh for powering entire
cities potentially, right? And it powers
the craft and so on. Um, and one thing
that stood out to me was that the whole
project Serpo book completely integrates
Halputo off spaceimetric engineering. It
integrates it so well, so much better
than any like sci-fi author could
possibly like it would have required
actual physicists. So, even if this was
like a total fake, which I'm sure part
of it are, they must have employed
either Hal put off or really really
well-versed physicists, some of the
rarest mofos on the planet. So, I
started publicly saying like, "Yo, can
anyone at TTSA explain this shit?" Like,
why the do you have projects at
TTS? TSA is to the stars academy is Tom
Delong's organization which was advised
by Halput off and a bunch of other
really high level people in intelligence
and military and it was sort of meant to
communicate alien truths in the mid2010s
and so okay so you're saying so you're
asking can anybody at TTSA explain why
there's so much like weird semantic
overlap between the theories being like
proposed and all this other stuff even
the projects dude like there's something
called uh Project Atom in Project Serpo.
And Project Atom is a um Los Alamos uh
secret program that studies nuclear
radiation and the radiation properties
of materials recovered from
extraterrestrial or alien spacecraft.
And uh the two stars academy had the
atom project which studied nuclear
radiation from metamaterials. And I was
like, dude, come on. Like there's no way
this is totally right. Like what are the
odds?
and it's using like Hal's physics and
stuff. So,
>> well, if if you were developing
extremely novel physics and you didn't
want adversaries to get a hold of it,
you might create some sort of initiation
path where you, you know, offiscate kind
of the secret sauce, but you have like
this, you know, you broaden the surface
area on like this thing that at least,
you know, gives people a highle primer
>> so they, you know, they think it might
exist or something so that they do know
it exists. So it's sort of adapted from
like a national security perspective and
I believe um put off and Dodie worked
with each other at one point. So
>> they did absolutely and so Hal uh
maintains uh that he had nothing to do
with any of this. They all do. The only
person who says that he had anything to
do with it is Dodie.
>> Uh and so you know the honest liar like
water is wet, right? So I emailed Dodie.
I think this was like 2020 or like late
Yeah, early 2020 somewhere around there.
And I was just like point blank I was
like like dude tell me that I was like I
straight up told him I was like Dodie I
respect you. Like I'm not trying to be a
hater. There's no way you wrote all this
cuz everyone's accusing you of writing
everything here. Yeah.
>> But there's no way you actually
understand the physics here. So who else
was involved?
>> What did he say? Dodie said, "I tip my
hat off to you for realizing there was
more people involved." It was the
vaguest answer ever. He didn't tell me
though who. He just acknowledged that.
Yeah, you're right. It wasn't just me.
It was other people, other physicists.
>> That's funny.
>> He just gave me a hat tip. Like, good
job on deducing that. That it wasn't
just me. I was like,
>> "Okay, that's helpful."
>> Okay. Wow. Okay. So, the langu we should
all We're going to throw up on the
screen the language from Project Serpo.
And where in project Serpo documents,
where does is that language supposed to
come from from the that that basically
the two-way communication with those
beings?
>> It it it came from like about a decade
or two or three decades of scientists
working with the alien that the live EBE
that was recovered
>> at Roswell.
>> Yeah. and decoding the language of
because the user interfaces and
everything uses all these symbols that
nobody understands. All the time devices
like the energy devices is based on this
language that nobody could crack for
like decades.
>> So while you're in the room with these
alien beings, there are three of them
and they're engaging these sort of phase
shifts of how they appear.
>> They're beaming hieroglyphs across like
virtual subtitles think like if you want
to imagine it like holographic. Do you
feel like they're doing anything with
your mind or are are you paralyzed? Can
you move? Like what's going on?
>> I could only move at some points and it
was only with great effort. That's why I
stopped trying. Um, roughly 5 minutes
into the experience, I took all of my
freaking will, like all of my power,
like you know, that I could possibly
muster and raised my neck, like raised
my head, like so took so much resistance
and effort. And I felt freaking
nauseous, very nauseous. Um, as I did
that and as I go do that, suddenly the
roof like dissolves and I see the
underlying underside of a rectangular
craft. Um, we both have a mutual friend.
I I'll call her E. Um, and uh, she's the
only person I know who's ever seen a
rectangular craft, by the way, which is
super interesting. So, the room
dissolves completely like the roof, I
mean, and the rest of my room.
>> What did it look like exactly?
Rectangular. beautiful creamy white
symbols. Um, light like some kind of
like light glowing colors on all four
corners. Um, but it was cream cream
colored.
>> Interesting. I've actually seen a
rectangular craft but more.
>> We got to talk about that.
>> Yeah, we should. Yeah. Yeah.
>> Holy crap. Wow. So, it starts So, then
you're the then that makes three of us.
>> Yeah. There you go. [laughter]
>> What are the chances we've all known
each other for a minute?
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
>> That's wild. So, it starts lowering and
lowering and I noticed that it only
lowers like further the more I lift my
neck up. So, I was like, "Screw it. I
feel like I'm going to puke, but I need
to find out what is inside this thing."
So, like I lift my head completely and
like the craft completely lowers to me
and I look around and the first thing I
get hit with is all these voices. It's
like as if something had like picked up
on like human radio signals and tried to
stitch together different human voices
to sound like a normal human. Like it
was weird. Like a symphony, but all the
keys are off or something.
>> Like a cacophony of human voices. And
>> and they're saying, "Calm down. It's
okay. You're not you're fine. Like we're
not harming you." Stuff like that.
>> You know how common that is? I was just
actually interviewed. It is very common.
I just interviewed um uh these two guys
who were abducted at Ellsworth Air Force
Base in 1977. So Mario Woods and Michael
Johnson and we reunited them. It was one
of the most beautiful experiences I've
ever been lucky enough to to you know be
around and be a part of. And it's wild
actually Dodie makes his way into that
story too because uh he was part of
Mario's debrief in 1977. It was maybe
right as he was starting some Air Force
counter intel
>> stuffed him so hard.
>> I was I tried to be nice about it cuz I
don't I don't have you know personal
issues with anybody. I also don't want
to, you know, incur any, you know,
issues, but like
>> I did call him out because he there was
actually a fake
>> document created called the L9 incident
at Ellsworth Air Force Base, which was a
day before Michael and Mario's
experience, and it described two fake
airmen who have the same social security
number on the document getting attacked
by alien beings. So, it's what you said.
It is hiding truth in fiction. It's it's
you know Mario and Michael did happen.
We have all this evidence that it
happened. It probably has as much
evidence as like any abduction account
ever at this point.
>> It's mindboggling.
>> And and then and then you have this like
mutated version of the story that's
meant to kind of pre-stigmatize it. And
uh Mario actually went on a podcast with
Dodie and Dodie kind of doubled down on
that story saying this guyman Reiki and
Jenkins or whatever like they were real
people and they were never real people.
the story was just made up. And so I I
was kind of like maybe Dodie ingested
the details from Mario [laughter] and
then wrote the thing.
>> Jesus, I wouldn't be surprised.
>> Yeah. Which like look, it's part of a
long history with him and like all I
would ask is like
>> Mario's a really special soul. He's and
he's older in life now and it's like
>> if you're Dodie just I don't know just
apologize and tell the truth. Say you
were a part of that, you know. And what
I like is that on another podcast he did
admit
>> that it happened and he's like Mario's
story is legit,
>> but I didn't like that he doubled down
on this and he this other podcast he
just went on solo. The podcaster didn't
call him out on the fact that he
constructed this fake
>> alternative version which is you know
it's like
>> good on you. It is up to us in the
community to hold everybody accountable
>> for sure.
>> Epistemically.
>> Yeah. And it's important to, you know,
it's fun. All this stuff is fun, but I
don't know, there's there's sometimes
this like ethos that gets created where
it's like, don't let the truth get in
the way of a good story. And it's like
this everything is everything. And we'll
tell the story and then at the end be
like, but maybe that didn't happen.
Doesn't matter. It's all about the
story. And it's like, no, yeah, but if
you want to make progress on a human
level and you know, scientifically and
social progress, I don't think throwing
your brain out and suspending all
disbelief, you know, is a good thing. I
think we should be discerning.
>> Totally.
>> And I think it's really important. You
you end up uh trivializing the real
stuff if it's sort of like you you you a
prior I emphasize just kind of the story
elements. I think the truth matters.
>> Absolutely. Yeah, it does matter. That
is so beautiful and and I will say like
you know we've talked a lot about uh the
intelligence gap asymmetric intelligence
gap uh potentially between different
beings AI and humans uh NHI and humans
and so on but it's worth noting um that
unlike the ape or the gorilla um the
gorilla can't contemplate its own
existence it can't write symphonies it
doesn't know rocket science doesn't know
math doesn't have philosophy we do so
Even though you know humans are you know
maybe sometimes angry or short-sighted
or greedy or selfish and so on so forth.
We get sad over the randomst things. We
develop arbitrary emotional attachments.
We contradict ourselves all the time in
our own stated values constantly. Um we
try to manipulate each other. But
somewhere amongst all that darkness in
us and chaos and so on, we also have
deep love, passion, compassion,
imagination, poetry, all these extra
precognitive skills that we've only just
started touching the surface of. We
invented and came up with our own
philosophy, theory of mind, and so on.
We're the ones who built the rockets.
were the ones who built the AI systems
today that their predecessors or
ancestors uh will eventually uh you know
benefit from. So I think we should never
forget how powerful we truly are no
matter how much smarter something else
might be. Humans are badass and will be
>> for sure. And I that was a beautiful
speech. I do realize it just I brought
up Mario and Michael because they heard
do not fear over and over again before
their abduction. That's giving me
chills.
>> And what's really interesting is if if
you were to isolate a catchphrase of
angels in the Bible, it would be do not
fear. Fear not was said to Daniel on the
banks of the Tigris before he received
his prophecy. And so, and then if you
think about where angels show up in the
Bible, they show up at the hinge points
of it's either to discard things worth
discarding or to save things worth
preserving to keep the system sort of
stable and moving or something.
>> I'm getting full body shell. So, and I
and I do think here's another weird
pattern. You're one of a few people who
I've met who are on the frontier of
science, like really weird science, who
have had close encounters of the third
kind and had direct alien encounters.
There's this construction worker named
Dave Rossi who says that Blue Being
showed up and he got this these all
these downloads and now he's like in
conversation with Halput Off and Eric
Davis and he was a construction worker
before and he's a self-taught physicist.
Um but I remember uh essentially being
um uh I guess you could say taken by a
uh a blue energy type humanoid if you
will. Next thing I knew, I basically
closed my eyes and I would I woke up the
next morning and I had an inclination to
study um electrical engineering and and
quantum physics in particular. And I
knew absolutely nothing about it. I have
another friend who I'll I'll remain
anonymous, but he's a very high level
physicist like knows as much about
quantum physics as anyone in the world.
>> Solid
>> on the frontier.
>> I think I know who you're talking about,
but we'll
>> Yeah, you do know who I'm talking about.
So, and he also experienced something
pretty trippy. So that makes me wonder
if the aliens or these beings are
somehow especially cognizant of people
who are on the frontier of science.
Similar to the three body problem.
>> Wow.
>> But okay, so going back to the core
experience. So you hear fear not or like
not you hear like don't worry, you're
going to be okay. Yeah.
>> Um and then you hear all all these
voices and then you see this craft and
then
>> Exactly. Then I put my head back cuz the
no became overwhelming. I couldn't
couldn't handle it anymore. Um but I saw
the inside though. of the craft, like
what I remember of it. And that's the
other weird part. I distinctly vividly
remember every single scene except for
what the I saw inside the craft.
That part is not perfect. It's so weird.
Like my my memor is typically very good
with these things. Like it
>> Did you go up into the craft from a
light like a traditional abduction or
>> It came to me [laughter] like it just
dissolved and came literally to me. It
was so weird. So weird. And no, that's
kind of similar to how they depict it in
Disclosure Day as well. It's like all of
a sudden they're surrounded and they're
in the craft or something,
>> right? I I sorry, Steven Spielberg, I
fell asleep during Disclosure Day. I
need to watch it again.
>> That's hilarious.
>> I need to rewatch that.
>> Yeah.
>> But but my girlfriend watched the whole
thing though. I'll ask her.
>> There you [laughter] go.
>> Yeah. And so, yeah, I I saw I remember
and again, this is there there's
definitely things that I've forgotten or
just don't I couldn't remember or
whatever, which is frustrating.
>> And as with all memory, you're not going
to remember exactly what happened moment
to moment in anything. But yeah, keep
going. So, to
>> totally um totally although I have a
pretty idetic memory, [laughter]
>> which is why this is so weird. Like, so
I see lights coming like like they're
floating and they're beautiful. They're
like this enchanting like pink and
purple hues just like orbs on in a way
kind of just like statically glowing
inside this very dark room. And um it
was like a control panel of some kind
like way over there on the side. I see
these little beings walking around.
Again, classic like gray alien Peruvian
mummies. Not all of them cuz I think
many of them are fake, but the little
tiny guys with the like, you know, the
nostrils and stuff like that and like,
you know, lack of ears or whatever. Uh,
and the fingers, the fingers were on
point.
>> So, they look like cuz they're different
morphologies of the Peruvian mummies.
You have the J types, the S types, and
the M types. The M types are the biggest
ones, and then the J types are the ones
that look like Close Encounters of the
third kind. The big ones look like your
traditional gray, like almost like the
the bigger grays in Close Encounter to
the third kind. And then the smaller
ones look like the smaller grays, the
like thin gangly thing. Do you know
which which ones it looked like?
>> It I would say it looked like a hybrid
of like the big one and the smallest
one. So like it had the tendrils.
>> You probably mean the big one and the
intermediate one cuz the smaller ones
are really weird. They're like wings.
>> Oh, are those the fake doll looking
ones?
>> Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Okay, then it's
probably not those.
>> But they were they were just tiny. Like
the ones I saw were like like 3 feet 4T
tall.
>> Um,
>> so yeah, I I'll look at the J type. But
yeah, the fingers stand out to me
because like when I like you would
typically expect something that small to
have like relatively small fingers, but
these things had long long tendrils,
like long very long fingers. There's
only like three of them on top of that.
It was very strange. And were you
getting any telepathic messages or were
you interacting with them mentally or or
verbally at all?
I feel compelled to tell you two things
uh for what it's worth. Um I'll start
with the first one. So I I had a like I
was in this like um yeah program um for
a long like for a few years there
between like the age of like 10 to 12.
And one of the things in this program,
it's like your classic like gifted kids
program, whatever. Um my teacher had
given me um uh like this assignment. I
was the only one who got this
assignment, this project. It was 10
years old um when I first started this
program. And it was a recurring project
I would work on every week or month
essentially. And she got me to look into
ESP, the psychic phenomenon.
>> No way.
>> Um everybody else had to do a science or
engineering related topic. I was the
only mofo consistently being assigned
ESP and anything related. Eventually
evolved into crop circles. She's like
looking into abduction stories, looking
to read those books by Jim Mars, like
all this other stuff.
>> What? So you had a gifted and talented
education advisor basically tell you to
research extra sensory perception
>> for years.
Years. And so by the time I was 12 years
old, um I remember having this dream
like and and the dream felt very vivid.
It felt very real. I'm in my drawing
room. This is in Siri. And I noticed
it's kind of like a table like this um
like in terms of flatness and texture.
And like on my this was my countertop.
This is like a center table or whatever.
And like I'm sitting on the couch and
there's like a uh orange in front of me.
Um and I could like feel like this
tingling sensation in the middle of my
forehead cuz I was like at this time I
was consciously like other than dreaming
I was actually actively like trying to
uh develop telepathy and psychokinesis.
>> Was that part of this training? Were
they it wasn't just study it in the
abstract? my teacher would straight up
like teach me techniques on like how to
like like direct physical energy to
change the temperature of a thermostat,
for example.
>> So, this is like a typical gifted and
talented education. not not typical for
the most part, but I've encountered a
couple people like Jordan Josac who's
come on my show,
>> Jordan's cool,
>> who uh and Julia Mosbury just talked
about her experiences where like they
get like gifted and talented education
is sort of like this top of funnel for
like these deeper sigh programs where
you're like meant to test mind matter
ability. So you were kind of in that.
>> I I have no idea what this was. Sounds
like looking back like I have no idea
why the heck my teacher gave only like
>> Do you remember her name or his name?
>> Yeah, Miss Core. K A U R
>> K A U R. She's still alive.
>> I I I don't know where she is. I don't
know who this person was. I don't even
know the I don't know anything about
this program.
>> Were you taken out of school for this?
>> Yeah, it would be I would get taken out
of school. I would get dropped off every
week by my parents cuz like
>> where was it like another place? It was
a different school or something.
>> Okay.
>> Yeah.
>> And it was in Toronto or
>> this was now in uh British Columbia.
>> British Columbia. Vancouver or?
>> Yeah. Uh close to Vancouver. Like an
hour away. Hour and a half away. What?
>> Vancouver.
>> Uh it was some kind of school for sure.
>> Did you ever like uh consume any drinks
or food that they gave you?
>> No. Never. I don't think so.
>> Okay.
>> Not Not that I know. It was so long ago.
[laughter]
>> Okay. Okay. But you so you initially you
were you were given some books and
research and then
>> at what point were you told to like
actually be a practitioner of like extra
sensory?
>> Year two I would say by the first year I
figured like like this is like I don't
know this like
how much more of this kind of work am I
going to get? Like when do I actually
get to do science and engineering? Like
I thought that's what gifted kids are
supposed to be working on like or
whatever. But that day never came dude.
Like my teacher would only give to
program teacher Miss Korea. She would
only So yeah, by year two um I started
staying like she would ask me to stay uh
after that program ended, right? And she
would it would be just us, nobody else.
And she would like teach me this
for like 30 minutes. It was it sounds so
strange saying it out loud, but yeah.
She would be like, "You need to learn
how to meditate and clear your mind."
And like, "Here's how she
>> So, this was after the other gifted and
talented education students left."
>> Exactly. It was like 30 minutes I would
get.
>> Uhhuh.
>> Sometimes up to 2 hours.
>> And what would she say to do?
>> Uh, she would she was trying to get me
to train my telekinesis and
psychokinesis.
>> What would she say to do?
>> Uh, so she said like she would I'll give
you one example of an exercise. So she
was like try to put your hands like this
and then raise them apart and feel start
visualizing and um try to create an
energy or pressure between your hands.
Your hands should start feeling some
sort of resistance from being able to
put be put closer together. Think of it
like the almost like she was trying to
induce like a macroscopic biological
casmir effect like like you almost like
you can implement like a vacuum field or
something. Sounds like something Yoda
would teach Luke Skywalker and Star
Wars, you know, like that's so wild.
>> It would blow my mind, too, cuz
sometimes it worked like and I' I've
never
>> What does it worked mean?
>> It worked mean I could like create some
kind of energy or force or something.
This sounds so crazy.
>> You would you would feel it, right?
>> I would physically feel it. And then and
that was like the first six months was
just focus on creating that field
between between your hands. just focus
on creating that like force that didn't
exist.
>> And then what what
>> she started teaching how to me how to
redirect it like send it outwards to
physical objects so that can influence
it.
>> And were you ever able to Matilda style
like move things in the room or
>> I I only tried it this on the
thermostats for what it's worth. Um and
yeah, I did actually tried it on like
that orange too, but when I was
conscious it didn't work. when I had
this dream that was super vivid, it
actually did work. So, that's the one
caveat is
>> So, you had a What do you mean? You had
a dream and then you interacted with the
orange or in the dream or out of the
dream?
>> It It was uh in the dream. Um I'm pretty
sure I'm I was dreaming. That's why I
keep saying like dream. I don't know for
a fact I was dreaming.
>> I don't know for sure. [laughter]
>> But I'm sitting in my drawing room and
like I'm practicing this force field
stuff. Um but this time I was just like
can I originate it like like through
through my head mind instead without
requiring any initiation any calming
meditation ritual? Can I just like ye
this like yolo it you know? And so
I just like concentrated and looked at
this thing uh this orange like on my
countertop and suddenly I feel this and
I'll bring this back to my 2019
experience in a second. I started
feeling this tingling sensation. Imagine
someone's just like flipping a book like
pages in front of you. You'd feel like
the wind from the book, right? As it's
like flipping. And so I feel that and
suddenly bam, the orange um starts it
moves like 8 10 in just like as if
something had pushed it. And I was like,
"Holy shit." Like how what what is that?
So why is that relevant? Because in
2019, you asked me was there any mental
telepathy or anything like that? And I
felt compelled to tell you two things.
Number one, every time I would stop
paying attention to the symbols, I would
feel that same exact forehead sensation,
tingling sensation again. It was so
recognizable. I was like, I what? I know
this feeling. I know this feeling very
well. Like it like I had this in my
dream one time. like you know and and
and I had forgotten about the dream on
top of that but like as soon as I felt
it I remembered all of that suddenly
miss core all those memories start
coming back everything and so I noticed
and I and I tested this cuz it I treated
as a control I was like okay if I don't
pay attention will this feeling come
back so I literally just picked a
different part of my room went over
there went over there suddenly bam
tingling feeling and it's like literally
guiding me back to the symbols keep
looking buddy like you know we're God
done. You're not. You got to pay
attention to this.
>> Do you think the symbols were somehow
transmitting information into you or
Dude, this is where things get so deep
and weird cuz like there's levels to
this stuff. Like yes, it could be, but
that's also the obvious uh conclusion.
Maybe it was just a distraction. Maybe
it was to teach me the power of symbols.
At some point, the symbols were both
here and then one set being portrayed
right here. Different different
sentences and paragraphs. And I was
like, how am I supposed to read both of
this at the same time? It was so
frustrating. I was like, how do I
process both? Like, I don't have an
alien brain, people. Like, you know,
give me a break here. Like, what is
this? So, the second thing I felt
compelled telling you about is that once
the three-fingered mofo gets like he
jumps on top, um, he does like some
pre-enchanting things I'll get into
later if you want. um but walks up to me
and he taps me or it taps me on my head,
whatever it was, right? Goes like this.
And as soon as it was doing that, my
mind expected because it was wearing its
suit something deeply metallic or or
like something like artificial or
synthetic. It felt way more like uh way
more organic than I could have expected.
It was very organic. And as soon as it
touches me, I get this complete
layer of calm and like oneness. And um
this is where I start getting like just
a true download or something like just
thoughts that I still barely have the
words for. I can translate three of
those thoughts. Um the the first thought
was that the universe is teeming with
life. We just don't have the instruments
for it, but it's everywhere. it it's not
nearly as dead as we think. The second
thought was that I was always going to
be uh experiencing this. I knew exactly
what was going to happen like decades
before like like before I was even born
type like I I'm here for a reason.
I have a mission. I literally wanted to
live this life as Deep Prasad or
whatever. Not even that name didn't even
come to mind. just I just wanted to live
this life and like have this moment and
this experience. It was like pre like
Yeah. pre-ordained or something.
>> Destined.
>> So weird.
>> So weird.
>> Um and keep in mind I'm a total militant
atheist before this, right? Like I
didn't believe in any of this stuff, not
even spirituality. And I was barely sold
on consciousness by the way, like as a
thing. Like I wasn't sure about
functionalism and whatnot. And then the
third thought, and this is even somehow
weirder than the second one, is the
universe is in the room with us right
now, and it's alive and well, and it
keeps track of everyone and everything.
>> It knows everybody, every being, every
consciousness. It keeps track of it like
a damn database or something, and it's
fully aware of everything that's
happening, including this moment right
now. So, it was so trippy. Wild. How
long do you think this event or how long
do you think this whole thing took?
>> 20 minutes.
>> 20 minutes.
>> Yeah. And
>> because you estimate that and did
>> just cuz of all the things that
happened, all the scenes, all the mind
switch, all the stuff being shown.
>> Was there any missing time? Was there
like did the time did more than that
elapse?
>> So that's the weird thing. I I had the
opposite of missing time. Almost no no
time passed.
>> Not a single minute really. So it's like
an expansion of a short amount of time
or something
>> pretty much
>> fascinating.
>> Both both are possible through
space-time metric engineering. By the
way, you can totally change the proper
metric of a particular human in the
world line
>> by isolating that human.
>> Just saying.
>> Did you have any marks on your body or
or hardware implanted or anything like
that? No. Uh the the the only thing that
to me was right after this I developed a
freaking red ass eye. like a super it
wasn't pink eye or anything like that.
It was just super red like I had a
reaction to something. But
>> um I experienced very weird electrical
effects and phenomenon that I still
can't explain. Um my phone even after
factory resetting it, it would charge
instantly for the first few days. Like
instantly as soon as I put in charging,
even if it's dead, um thought that was
just a factory defect. Didn't seem like
it.
>> That's common too among experiencers.
electromagnet. That's so strange. I
would walk by street lights, bus lamps,
like bus signs and stuff just shut off.
Totally shut off.
>> Um, yeah. And the I think the most
intense experience was I was incapable
of feeling anger or stress or anxiety
for like 3 weeks. It was so strange. So,
you felt good. I felt really good. I
felt so good that I was like, "Dude, did
I lose my agency?" cuz like I I I didn't
I didn't earn this level of like
>> self-regulation at all. Like it just
came out of nowhere.
>> Do you think it installed any scientific
ideas the experience?
>> I I don't think it installed scientific
ideas and maybe it did. I I can't tell
for a fact uh one way or another. What
it definitely did do was reorient me.
Suddenly I went from just wanting to uh
help the technoc capital machine, the
economic system build quantum computers
only for materials discovery to suddenly
holy we need to expand the
definition of consciousness. I want to
make contact with non-human
intelligence. Um I think it's super
important that we accelerate our
propulsion in physics and science well
beyond what quantum computing can do.
like my horizon and orientation went way
more towards consciousness
uh and spacetime than just how do we
make companies more money
>> that was the biggest difference
>> that's beautiful man well deep this has
been amazing
>> pleasure brother such a pleasure
>> yeah I feel like we got to end on that
crazy high note I mean what what an
amazing remarkable experience and you're
just so fun to talk to about all of
these desperate but
>> so are you my man
>> thank But but increasing in relevance
macro trends that are converging into
some form sort of apotheiois or apex
point omega point.
>> It's so
>> it's very exciting man. And uh yeah
always love talking
>> of the singularity.
>> That's what it feels like man. Yeah.
>> Awesome.
>> I got back from South America last year
with something I couldn't shake. Weeks
of it. I kept filming down there. I
picked up a bug somewhere along the way
and it just kept going long after it
should have stopped. I was in bed for
weeks. Ways to Well is how it ended.
Bighgam and his team went at it properly
and got me back on my feet. Then I sent
them my parents. My dad unfortunately
has dementia and they've been treating
him. My mom's had vertigo for a long
time and they helped her with that.
That's the part I find hard to talk
about without sounding like an
advertisement and they're not paying me
to say any of this. So, I'll just say it
plainly. They looked after my family and
I'm not going to forget that. But here's
what I actually want you to understand
about them because it's bigger than any
of those stories. Most of us treat a
serious diagnosis like the weather,
something that happens to you. But it
doesn't have to be that way. Almost
everything serious that we end up
diagnosed with has been building up for
years and a blood test would have shown
it the whole time. Nobody looks because
a normal physical checks the same
handful of things every year. And if
they're in range, you're fine. And the
range in the American health care system
is healthy or on the verge of death.
Ways to Well looks at all of your
information, one blood draw, and they
run it for everything. How your body's
handling sugar. So you see diabetes
coming years out, the inflammation that
shows up years before heart disease
does, your thyroid, your hormones, your
vitamins, your stress, every part of you
that can quietly go wrong, checked at
once. Then a clinician sits down and
goes through the whole thing with you
and leaves you with a plan. They're very
good at fixing people, but what they're
actually built for is making sure
there's nothing to fix. Go to ways
towwell.com now.
>> [music]
[music]
>> Heat. Heat.
Woo!