Human history is nonlinear and there are
all these feedback loops and retrocausal
effects going on. At some point, some
group of people broke time.
I'm here with Jason Georgiani. Round
three. You're so encyclopedic in your
knowledge of UFO history. I think you
have a very clear worldview.
>> These things aren't objects. They're
some kind of unexplained anomalous
phenomena. that is plasmatic and then it
can turn into a UFO, but it can also
turn from a UFO into a black helicopter.
And what it looks like to me is two
sources of the close encounter
phenomenon. One is this arcantic control
system, but then on the other hand, a
super intelligence.
>> Well, if there is some control system,
why do they let certain things go and
why do they suppress other things? They
take place when humanity is on the verge
of figuring something out for itself.
>> Towns and Brown was literally saying,
"Every time I have a breakthrough, this
group in the Bahamas, they kind of suck
up the tech. They suck up the IP. When
we look at Magenta in 1933, here's a
craft that had a Nordic body in it and
then promptly handed over to Nazi
Germany for reverse engineering." So,
that looks an awful lot like a donation
to me. In 1954, executives of
aeronautical engineering companies were
being quoted as saying they have solved
anti-gravity and then the whole thing
goes dark.
By the 1970s, Andrea Puharic had figured
out Tesla technology. Like really
figured it out.
>> Really?
>> Yes. The Tesla towers tune quantum
potential and propagate thoughts
telepathically into people's minds. They
built them all underground. One in
Alaska, one in South Africa. 1984 and
now they're building a third one in
Antarctica.
>> It's wild because Puharaj isn't some
random guy. He was one of the earliest
architects of MK Ultra.
>> And then here he is saying half the
abductions are being faked by some
entity within the United States power
structure.
>> 90% of the sightings are all due to
man-made spacecraft.
>> He's on record faking an alien abduction
with Yuri Geller. Puharic had used
psychotronic machines to
psychotronically manipulate people all
over the place to carry out intelligence
operations.
>> Betty and Barney Hills regression. The
first thing that Barney says is [music]
he looks like a Nazi.
>> The evil face of that Nazi.
>> I think it's both. I think some
experiences are truly just transcendent
and involve real beings. You can't
explain them away through covert
military technology. These overlords
have always used certain elites as
viceroys and proxies to implement their
policies.
>> Well, fascinating. [laughter and gasps]
I don't even know where to go from
there, but
>> Well, there's a lot of places we
>> There are a lot of places we could go.
>> Ignition sequence drive.
[music]
>> How is this possible?
Nothing too unusual about that.
[music]
>> Their existence cannot longer be denied.
>> I'm here with Jason Georgiani. Round
three. You are I think it's only you and
Eric Weinstein who's been on three
times. And it's because you're the gift
that keeps on giving. Every time we sit
down, it just flows. and you know so
much. You're so encyclopedic in your
knowledge of UFO history, but I think
you're one of the few people, and I
always say this along with Jacqu Valet
and maybe a few others who really do a
lot of sense making and analysis as to
what we're seeing. It's not just data
and stories that are impossible to make
sense of. I think you have a very clear
worldview and at times we disagree on
that, but um it's always extremely fun
and generative to speak with you. So,
I'm grateful that you're here today.
Thank you, Jason.
>> Well, it's especially a pleasure to be
here with you because I don't know, as
you might recall, the first conversation
we had, you were moving out to Austin
and so we weren't able to record in your
old studio. We had to rent a studio. And
then the second conversation was in LA
and we filmed in a restaurant. So, this
is the first time I've been graced with,
you know, the the Jesse Michaels abode.
[laughter]
>> It's a slight slight upgrade for sure.
And uh yeah, just you know, we're we're
making progress, trying to make moves.
But uh no, it's great to have you. And
um
>> I don't know, there's so much we can we
can talk about, but there's this really
amazing content creator named Jason
Samosa, and he cites your work and he is
seems like unraveling the deep state at
a faster rate than anybody. and he talks
about this world commerce corporation
which seems to be this shell corporation
that is transnational
uh that involves a lot of Nazis actually
post World War II
>> on the board Donovan Stephvenson Ambrose
you've got Dulles doing the legal
council there's a whole bunch of other
high-powered UK people loads of OSS
people who are out of work and there's
also connections to organized crime
which we can talk about in a minute and
the Nazi underground too And he thinks
that that when to Tom Tom Dong actually
wrote this book you know secret machines
he talks about this Maynard consortium
which is this international sort of
corporation that controls the UFO issue.
Ben Rich who was the director of Loheed
Martin skunk works. He also talked about
an international corporate board that
controlled the UFO issue and he kind of
lamented the fact that they had more
control than he did and that you know
than American domestic powers did. And
so do you think Jason is is on to
something? And and what's up with the
World Commerce Corporation?
So, you know, on the margins of Deep
Tech Week, we were having some late
night conversations and and this came up
and we went into this in in some depth
last night actually. These overlords
have always used certain elites as
viceroys and proxies to implement their
policies and to sort of work on the the
mundane nuts and bolts of managing the
control system.
And you know you see this going back to
the Sumerian priest kings and the
brahines of ancient India but then all
the way up into the modern era with you
know the Raj in India that we were
discussing earlier the viceroy local
Indians who helped the British
effectively maintain colonial control
over India.
I interpret the world commerce
corporation along those lines. In other
words,
it's a group of elites who were given
access to
um the type of technology that the
overlords had, which is something not
incidentally you see in Hindu scriptures
where there are cases in which davas
come down and they give certain Hindu
kings control of like a couple of
vimmanas
and they're like, you know, you can only
use this for this and that and whatever
and like, you know, don't get too
arrogant, but like here's a vammana for
you to have a donation, right? And so
when we look at Magenta in 1933,
here's a craft that, you know, according
to some accounts, had a Nordic body in
it and was recovered initially by
fascist Italy and then promptly handed
over to Nazi Germany for reverse
engineering. Now, if you're some
benevolent Nordic, right, from like the
Pletes and your material has crashed
there, right, and you know it's going to
fall into the hands of the most
totalitarian regime on the planet
who probably will figure out how it
works because they've got the best
physicists and engineers. Don't you
think it might be a good idea to go
retrieve that and that it would be
within your capacity to do so? So, that
looks an awful lot like a donation to
me. Also, it's a rather dark fact of
history that one year after Magenta, the
Nazis created Leensborn.
Labensborn was the Nazi eugenics program
to basically develop a Nordicl looking
master race. Okay? You know, most
Germans aren't Nordic looking people.
Like that's more Scandinavian thing. But
for some reason the SS adopted this
Nordic phenotype as its ideal and they
created this insane eugenics program
where like you know SS officer like like
SS officers were allowed to have sex
freely with like Nordic perfectl
lookinging women you know who you know
could sleep with as many SS officers as
they wanted to produce as many you know
beautiful blondhaired blue-eyed children
as possible right who are put into these
weird collective homes
where you know lord knows what
experiments were conducted on them and
so forth. This all happens within a year
of the recovery at magenta. Also within
the same time frame the Germans
established the ananab which was tasked
with investigating the origins of the
Aryan race in Atlantis or what they
called thula
which ultimately I think that they
concluded was Antarctica. First they
looked at Iceland, they looked at
Greenland and then eventually I think by
the time they they decided to field the
Deutsche Antarctica expedition 1937 38
they had realized that you know um Thula
Ultima Thula is Antarctica and
Antarctica is essentially Atlantis.
And so anyway,
so you have this whole uh process take
place and then there are reports
that by 1944
at a facility outside Prague and I think
it was put there because you know the
the material was recovered by the
Italians and the Italians also had
competent scientists and the Germans
didn't want to insult the Italians by
just taking all this material into Nazi
Germany. So they set up a joint program
with a few Italian engineers in a
facility in a in a third party country
namely Czechlovakia
and or or greater Czecha in the in the
Reich. And uh there were reports that by
1944 they had developed both this sort
of zero point energy
uh propulsion device called DLOA or the
bell and a functional saucer airframe
which they were trying to marry together
into a single operating system.
Initially the saucer airframe was power
was a jet powered craft
>> and then they were trying to like
replace that jet powered system with
this electrogravidics system.
And
um Alan Dulles
actually went and observed the
functioning of this craft at that
facility in 1944 before the war was
over. Alan Dulles and his brother John
Foster Dulles were working with uh John
Rockefeller and a German by the name of
Schroeder at a company in New York
called uh something like uh Rockefeller
Schroeder and Co.
And at that time the Dulles brothers
through that company were funding the
rise of Nazi Germany in the 1930s
together with JP Morgan also a major
backer of Nazi Germany and Ford and
other elites.
And so there was a contingent of
American corporatists, mostly based out
of New York City, who initially funded
the rise of Nazi Germany, and then in
1945
conspired to
retrieve the hardware
that was produced by these Nazi programs
together with all the vital technical
personnel uh and transplant them either
back to the United States or to places
that they had, you you know, within
their sphere of control like Argentina.
And Jason samosa, you know, gets good
receipts on this transfer of uh
intellect uh capability and material
which involved
elements of the OSS like Wild Bill
Donovan, right?
Um a lot of people are under the
impression that, you know, the OSS
transformed immediately into the CIA
after the war. That's not the case.
There was an attempt to shut down the
OSS because Americans don't want to have
a permanent intelligence service like
that. It was created for wartime for a
specific, you know, purpose. And, you
know, it it's threatening to the US
Constitution. So, they tried to shut
down the OSS. And then the head of the
OSS, well, Bill Donovan, takes his most
important intelligence files and he
brings them to a private office in what
used to be the British security
coordination
um at 635th Avenue, the International
Building of Rockefeller Center. This is
the building behind the colossal
sculpture of Atlas.
And that building, by the way, also from
their offices, which I believe were on
the 35th floor, looks down onto the
sculpture of Prometheus.
So he moves all these files in there and
then in short order Alan Dulles is
working with him as a co-founder of this
world commerce corporation
and it's in the British the old British
security coordination. So there's MI6
people involved too. People who, you
know, wind up being, you know, part of
the MI6 intelligence structure,
including Ian Fleming, who goes on to
write the Bond novels,
and who I think fictionalized this World
Commerce Corporation as Spectre in his
Bond novels, this transnational crime
syndicate mafia
terroristic organization, right? Um, and
you know, you have these like scar-faced
villains in the in the Bond uh novels,
which I think are references to real
Nazis who were brought into this
organization at a fundamental level. The
most important of which was Otto
Scorzani. So Otto Scorzani was the head
of special operations and psychological
warfare. Um, and and the the director of
the most important commando raids uh
during Nazi Germany. He's the guy who
went and rescued Mussolini uh from the
prison on the island of Panza that the
allies had put him in toward the end of
the war and came back and you know got a
medal from Hitler and so on and so forth
and he was Hitler's favorite commander
and Scorzani
by 1955
one decade after the founding of the
World Commerce Corporation becomes the
chairman of the corporation and is
running this
entity that controls 450 50 global
subsidiaries. He's running this entity
from out of a headquarters at
Rockefeller Center in New York City.
So I think this needs to be looked at in
the context of what happened with
reports of electrogravidics
breakthroughs round about 1955 when
Scorzani took over the World Commerce
Corporation.
As you know, you talked about in
previous, you know, episodes of your
your show, there were a flurry of
articles in 1954 into 55
where executives of aeronautical
engineering companies, what we would
call aerospace today, were being quoted
as saying they have solved
electrogravitics or anti-gravity
theoretically and that all all that's
needed is funding for large-scale
manufacturer
and like the G engines are going to be
rolled off the assembly line imminently.
And then the whole thing goes dark.
Well, is it really a coincidence that
that happens at the same time Scorzani
is taking over the World Commerce
Corporation and it happens a decade
after that breakthrough was made in Nazi
Germany. Well, you can get even more
specific, which is wild, that William
Stevenson was working at that office in
Rockefeller Center. He was Church Hill's
super spy. uh he was Ian Fleming's
inspiration for James Bond and he was in
direct touch with Thomas Towns and Brown
who claimed to have this sort of
electrogravitic breakthrough of novel
propulsion. They were in close
coordination in fact so much so that uh
at William Stevenson's behest Towns and
Brown flew behind enemy lines in 1944 in
Germany to interview some high voltage
scientists because he was the only one
with the expertise to do that. And
there's a telegram between William
Stevenson and Josephine Townsen's wife
where he goes, you know, your husband is
okay. He's been injured, but he's he's
fine. Uh William Stevenson was also in
touch with Charles Proteius Steinmets
who was a GE uh engineer in Shencti, New
York who was interested in kind of
extended models of electronamics and
very you know similar Tesla Towns and
Brown adjacent kind of you know exotic
breakthrough physics. So, and then one
more layer to this. Um, Towns and Brown
was literally saying, "Every time I have
a breakthrough, this group in the
Bahamas, this group of international
industrialists, and he cites William
Stevenson, and he says Eldidge Reeves
Johnson, who's uh president of RCA
Victor Machines Talking Company." Um,
they they kind of suck up the tech. They
suck up the IP. And and then and then
the final layer to add to it is Robert
Maxwell, you know, obviously, you know,
Epstein's sort of you call it his
father-in-law or whatever. Um he was in
charge of uh interrogating Nazi
scientists after World War II. He was
for the MI6. So you have to wonder, is
there some sort of connection between
William Stevenson and Robert Maxwell?
And why was there such an interest
specifically in these exotic science
modalities?
>> Yes. And uh recently
um
there are some files that have emerged
uh in reporting by a fellow named Sharp.
Uh his first name might be Christopher,
but I might be misremembering it.
>> Christopher Sharp.
>> Christopher Sharp. Yes.
>> So there there's some files that have
emerged that document the interrogation
and American processing of Hans Kumler.
M now general Hans Comler of the SS
was the head of the SCOD works
um and he was also Vervon Braun's boss.
Von Braonn was a major who worked under
General Comler in the SS.
Com was presumed dead for all these
decades. Comler was also, by the way,
the architect of the concentration
camps. So we're dealing with like the
worst of the Nazis. Okay. He makes like
Ron Braun look like a boy scout.
And Comler was presumed dead, but now
we've got these files that show no
actually he got out of World War II
alive and he was interrogated and
processed by Americans and he seems to
have been brought in outside the
paperclip framework which was done for a
number of other people as well including
Yosef Mangala. I'm certain that Mangala
was also brought in with CIA knowledge,
but he was taken to Mexico because he
was a little bit too hot to handle
inside the continental United States. So
Tomler was running the UFO reverse
engineering program after the Magenta
crash and he's brought in in 1945.
So, you think it's a coincidence that by
1955 when our own American companies
make the same technological
breakthrough, they're all told to shut
up and either cooperate or drop this
effort. No, it's because there's a
deeper black project that's being run by
Nazis in the national security state
that's been established by then, or what
we might call the deep state. and they
already have control of this effort and
they're making let's say the CEO of
Martin Aircraft to become eventually
Loheed Martin play ball with them if if
they want to have access to an already
invented and developed technology right
so I think that's what happened here and
you know the disturbing implication of
that is that if this is in fact the case
we have to treat what has hitherto been
called the legacy program as an
intermediary very obuscating layer so
that the so you know we have this
>> so you think it's human technology
essentially you think these UFOs are
human technology that have their origin
in Nazi Germany
>> yes but to go back to what we were
saying earlier
>> but then you also
>> magenta seems to be a donation
>> and so it's as if as in the case of the
Raj you know and these various uh you
know stories in ancient Indian epics
where davas share vimmanas with rajas
with Hindu kings. Uh it's as if a new
elite of managers was forged beginning
in Nazi Germany and continuing through
the world commerce corporation uh in
order to basically act as viceroys for
these overlords in the contemporary era.
>> Very interesting. Well, I do think the
magenta crash, which was in 1933, I
think that saucer actually made its way
to the Serat bunker, which is outside of
Rome. And then I think the the SCOD
works work was very real. And there's
Victor Shawberger, who was recruited to
work under Hans Conler, had plans for a
flying saucer that you can all look up
and see today. And you have a quote from
Rudolph Shriber, who says, "We flew a
flying saucer to 40,000 ft and it took a
few seconds." There's a lot of
documented, you know, Richard Meita,
another engineer who had plans for a
flying saucer. So, there's a lot of
documentation around the Nazi program as
well. And then we were speaking about
this at dinner the other day. So, you
have a lot of these people make their
way to the United States. A lot of
accounts of Richard Mita possibly
working on the Avroar project under a
actually British aircraft, a guy named
John Frost. Yes. He also recruited this
guy Henry Kanda for which the Kanda
effect is named which you know gives
these flying saucers their sort of
signature wobble that a lot of people
see. There's even a quote from you know
so towns and brown formed NYAP which was
you know the first civilian UFO research
group and he said there are UFOs that
are ours and UFOs that are theirs and
this is in the ' 50s and he's telling
his daughter this and he says the ones
that are ours have this sort of wobble.
He told Linda to filter out the ones
where they describe a motion like a
fluttering leaf and those are ours. He
said
>> what what does he mean a fluttering leaf
>> wobble
>> and so you know that's that's really
interesting as well
>> and they crash
>> and they crash and you know what's
what's fascinating is uh he is then
funded by uh Agnu Bonson. Agnu Bonson is
this air conditioning magnate but he's
kind of eccentric and you know very
intelligent as well. He founds the
Institute of Field Physics which
convened some of the top physicists in
the world. Um you know Reer Fineman you
know Freeman Dyson like name your top
physicist at the time Peter Bergman. Um
and the the main sort of physicist there
convening everybody is Bryce Dwit. He's
also fascinated by anti-gravity and he
he really wants to figure it out and he
funds towns and brown and we now know
due to this Australian intelligence memo
that he was probably like a CIA cutout.
He was probably working directly with
the CIA. He then goes on to write a
science fiction book called The Stars
Are Too High about
American top scientists and engineers
collaborating with Nazi top scientists
on man-made
disc saucer UFO crafts and them faking
an alien invasion in order to sort of,
you know, have sort of psychological
effects on on the population at large.
And then he dies in a bizarre plane
crash. And his family, I believe, thinks
to this day that there was foul play and
that uh this sort of telephone line,
which was never supposed to be there,
was put up, you know, at the at the
landing pad or whatever. I think I don't
know if it was takeoff or landing, but
that the the plane went right into it
and it wasn't supposed to be there. Um,
so very fascinating, albeit loose
threads, but it's very interesting and
it corroborates what you're saying.
>> You know what else corroborates it?
>> What?
>> So you cited that statement from Townson
Brown already in the 1950s to the effect
that there are some that are man-made
and there are ours, right? And they
wobble a little bit. By the 1970s,
Andrea Puharic is claiming that. Now, I
mean, I don't know if he was
exaggerating, but he certainly didn't
sound like he was speculating. It
sounded like he was speaking from
inner program knowledge.
He said, quote, 90% of UFOs that people
have close encounters with are the US
Flying Saucer Fleet. And he said,
"They're staging half of the
abductions."
>> Whoa. And he also said, "The technology
originated in Nazi Germany and it was
brought here together with all those
Nazis."
>> Is this a quote?
>> This is a quote.
>> That's wild. It's wild because Puhar
isn't some random guy. He was one of the
earliest architects of MK Ultra. He had
as deep of intelligence connections as
as one could get. He also, if anybody
knew how to fake an alien abduction, it
was Puharic. He's on record faking. You
know, my good friend uh Greg Malazzi has
been on the show. He has done an amazing
documentary on Puharic that is going to
be coming out called Mind Traveler. And
it depicts basically Puharic faking an
alien abduction with Yuri Geller where
he like spikes his drink, doses him up
with something, and then he ends up like
miles away and he was I think he gets
thrown through a window or something.
Wakes up a screen door. There you go.
Yeah. And thinks that he's been taken by
aliens.
>> Yeah. One day he says to me, "Lukori, I
want to hypnotize you. I want to go back
and see where this power [music]
emanates from." And I agreed to be
hypnotized. I cannot remember what
happened while he hypnotized me. Um, he
probably used one of these TD machines
that he developed. These are
psychotronic machines that can propagate
information into a person's brain using
extremely low frequencies.
and uh a combination of that together
with drugs to make Yuri Geller believe
that he was basically teleported from
Manhattan to Austining which is a suburb
of New York City and through Puhar's
screen door into his living room. Um and
he did other things like for example um
so I'm I'm writing a I just finished a
book about Puharaj. I just did a whole
like I don't know the manuscript comes
to something like 250 pages. I don't
know what it'll look like when it's
published as a book, but it's the first
comprehensive philosophical study of,
you know, the work of Puharaj spanning
his entire career. And so one of the
other cases like this is that uh there
was this guy Bob Beckwith who was a I I
guess you say associate of Puharic
collaborator
and
Beckwith goes to get some
uh dental work done
and the co-founder of Puhar's
corporation the intellect corporation
which was based in Midtown Manhattan the
co-founder of the corporation is an
skilled dentist
Joseph Lawrence and this Bob Beck with
goes to get some dental work done and
all of a sudden he's having like alien
abductions and hearing voices in his
head and he comes and grabs Puhar's
collar and he's like what the did
you do to me man like you people planted
something in my mouth and Puh is like no
it must be the it must be the nine they
must they must be interested in you you
know
>> what year is this
>> uh this is in the 19
I think it's in the late 60s or early
70s
>> that is wild.
>> Yeah. And so there's more than one case
indicating that Bharic
knew how to fake an alien abduction. And
then here he is saying half the
abductions are being faked by the some
entity within the United States power
structure.
>> It was probably earlier than the late
60s early 70s. Right. Because I think
intellect was it was rated
>> was founded in 1961.
>> 61 the year of Betty and Barney Hill.
>> Yeah.
>> That's interesting. Yes.
>> Um Whoa. because it was raided right um
during the JFK assassination right after
the JFK
>> assassin it wasn't a raid some some men
in black types came into the office and
um spoke to Puharic like in his back
room and the secretary noted that after
they left Parharic was deeply disturbed
for the rest of the day they didn't like
take any any information or anything
from out of there had a talk with him
>> it's pretty insane though that like you
know now we know that a lot of this
Manurion candidate stuff that John Markx
wrote about was is very real. And we,
you know, you even have, if you read Tom
O'Neal's chaos, documented interactions
between Jolly West, who is, you know,
one of the heads of MK Ultra, you know,
corresponding with Sydney Gotautle, who
is the the grand architect of the entire
program, meeting with Jack Ruby, who
basically destroyed evidence by killing
Lee Harvey Oswald, who was supposedly
this lone gunman, you know, in JFK's
assassination. So, we know their MK
Ultra ties to JFK's assassination. We
don't know how deep they go, but we know
at the very least it involves
obstructing evidence in the form of
Jolly West interacting with uh Jack
Ruby, who then goes crazy after they
spend 24 hours off camera with each
other in Jack Ruby's uh jail cell. And
Jack Ruby to that point hadn't
remembered killing Lee Harvey Oswald.
And then after that, he has a psychotic
break. And Jolly West does a press
conference outside the the jail and
says, "Jack Ruby has had a psychotic
break." So, it's
>> I knew a guy who visited Jack Ruby in
prison.
>> Whoa.
>> Yeah.
>> What? Tell me more.
>> Well, um, he had the impression that
Ruby had been driven insane deliberately
in prison.
>> So, there you go. So, and you have
evidence at least there, but it's even
wilder that you have another architect
of MK Ultra in the case of, you know,
Andre Puharic who has a company called
Intellect which is doing dental implants
for mind control and then his office
gets raided right after the
assassination. That's very strange.
>> Well, I think he had something to do
with the World Commerce Corporation.
>> Did he?
>> I I think so.
>> And what did he have to do with the
world commerce? Another thing that Puhar
uh said is and look before I wrote this
whole book on puhar by the way the title
of the book is intellectics
>> because intellectron wasn't just the
name of a corporation it was the name of
a whole concept that puharich was
developing as a as a sort of more
complex and self-conscious form of
psychotronics. Okay. So I called the
book intel electronics and I don't know
if it it probably will be out by the
time this uh podcast is released or
shortly thereafter. In any case, before
I wrote that whole book length study of
Bharaj, I wrote this essay called
projecting Prometheus which deals with
Puhar and MK Ultra. And that's a subject
I come back to in the book on Puharaj.
But in that essay um specifically I talk
about you know the origins of MK Ultra
and how it's always associated with uh
Sydney Gotautleb and and Ean Cameron and
you know these various
>> doctors who used known techniques like
LSD administration, electroshock therapy
and so forth for behavior modification
and uh engineering of dissociation.
Right. And the parasychology aspect of
MK Ultra is never discussed. But in
fact, if you dig into it, you realize
that that was the core of the program
>> and that probably Puharic was much more
important than Eden Sydney got
>> and what Puharic says. So Puharic was
working at Edgewood Arsenal in you know
1950.
He he had been studying philosophy
during uh World War II and then when
World War II broke out he was like well
you know people are dying all over the
place I should do something more
practical with my life than studying
philos but it shows the inclination his
inclination was to become a philosopher
and you can see this throughout his
career reemerging and so he becomes a
medical doctor and then he's recruited
into the you know into the army uh
special medical program uh at Edgewood
wood arsenal where they're developing
biological and chemical weapons among
other things. And
uh round about that time 1952 is when
it's documented that the precursor of MK
Ultra namely Bluebird begins.
Puharaj says that the reason he was
brought in is because all these Nazis
were doing these experiments
and the government needed to cultivate
Americans to eventually replace the
Nazis who they had brought over from
Germany to do these mind control you
know experiments
uh and development of techniques and
technologies and so forth. So the the
founding generation of you know Bluebird
and Artichoke and MK Ultra were the
transplanted Nazis.
>> It is it is also just so fascinating
that if you go to Betty and Barney Hills
regression the first thing that Barney
says is he looks like a Nazi
>> and
the evil face
on the
he looks like a
Nazi. the evil face of that Nazi. He
looks like a Nazi.
>> He looks like a Nazi. It's so strange.
And then you get into these kind of
ontological questions of like, okay, so
you have MK Ultra, you have gravity
manipulation, anti-gravity propulsion
sort of research, you have directed
energy, you have ways to explain away
all these sort of transcendent sort of
things, you know, all these UFO
experiences and encounters and close
encounters of the third kind. And then I
always land on Yes. And you know, I
think it's it's both. I think some
>> experiences are truly just transcendent
and involve you know, real beings. And I
don't think those are easily, you know,
ex you can't explain them away through
covert military technology. But what
what do you think?
>> I agree with you entirely.
>> It's both. M but again to go back to to
you know the point I was trying to make
earlier
the more mundane prosaic
programs being run by elites
seem to be on some level endorsed by the
control system that's fielding the
actual close encounters. That's what it
feels like. A lot of these guys that get
into really exotic science bump into a
layer above them.
>> Yeah. Like there's almost like science
is being disseminated from a place of
complete reality manipulation.
>> Y
>> but like it's like being dripfed or
something. And that's where you get into
the sort some of the missing scientist
stuff. And it's like do I think there's
been a statistical speed up of science
suppression? I don't know. Do I think
there's been science suppression over
the last 100 200 years? For sure.
Obviously. And then some of these cases
in isolation, you know, I just had
Michael Shurmer on and he was like,
"There's nothing weird about the
disappearance of General Neil McCassen."
I'm like,
>> "In isolation, that story is completely
significant."
>> No, I don't. It's just totally random.
>> What do you mean? He he a gun was
missing and and his wife his wife said
he was suffering from depression for
years.
>> His wife also said the only explanation
might be that an alien took took him on
the mother ship. Why would she joke
about her missing husband a week later?
That's weird. because of all the weird
conspiracy theories around it. You were
very generous with him.
>> I'm like, what are you talking about?
Yeah, it was crazy. I was like, this guy
was on, you know. Yeah, it was probably
too nice, you know, uh uh he was in
charge of the special access program
oversight committee. He's literally uh
you know, in charge of over 2,000
special access programs. And he's saying
that it's it's the job of the local
authorities to look into it. No, it's
the job of the FBI and every intel
agency we have. It's all hands- on deck.
What are you talking about? That's
insane. Um, cases like that or Carl
Gilmare who was one of a few people with
access to the Ver Ver Rubin Observatory
first access um, which detects changes
in, you know, the astronomical record.
So if you think of James Webb as having
you know
the strongest resolution within a narrow
scope, Ver Rubin is the first to detect
anything entering our solar system. And
all of this stuff has to get screened by
the DoD or now Department of War before
uh you know ever being released to the
public. and he gets you know uh uh hor
horrifically killed along with um Nuno
Lorero who is uh probably foremost in
the field for uh you know magnetic
reconnection. So uh you know nuclear
fusion is this big holy grail. You know,
you could make the earth way more
sustainable and unlock all sorts of new
technologies, but you have this magnetic
you have this leakage that occurs with
these tokamac uh you know uh magnetic
confinement uh uh fusion abilities. And
he was the person who was deepest on the
actual confinement of you know the the
fusion in order to make it work. And he
gets killed in such a you know bizarre
sort of way. and it was by somebody who
had held a long-standing grudge with
him. But then if you think about these
sort of you know manurian candidate
possibilities it's like anything's on
the table. So what yeah what do you
think about historical science
suppression? Do you think
why does if there is some control
system? Why do they let certain things
go and why do they suppress other
things?
>> This is exactly where I wanted to go. So
I think these donations are
disempowering. I think that they take
place when humanity is on the verge of
figuring something out for itself and
they get ahead of that and they control
the dissemination of it. So for example,
if you look at the late 19th century
into the early years of the 20th
century, Nicola Tesla and probably
others were developing
what could have become an alternate
physics paradigm from out of the
extended Maxwell equations that were
truncated by Heavyside and canonized in
our physics textbooks. And this type of
alternate physics involves concepts like
scalar waves that
propagate
information and can
release electromagnetic energy at a
great distance
but without um transverse herzian waves
being involved in that propagation. They
propagate
information for the distant release of
electromagnetic energy in a kind of
longitudinal wave that's similar to how
a sound wave works rather than a you
know a transverse wave. And these waves
can also go through the earth because it
seems like what they're reaching through
before they let's say you have two Tesla
transmitting towers that are you know
calibrated to converge on a distant
target.
um they can apparently penetrate the
earth because actually they appear to be
reaching through something like what
David Bow conceptualized as the
implicate order a kind of subquantum
matrix of pure scalar potential a kind
offormational matrix that can be coded
and and and tuned with like extremely
low frequencies
and so one of the things the most
fascinating things that I discovered in
the course of researching puhar
for this book into electronics
is that the reason his house was burned
down his house and and lab in Austining
lab 9 was burned down didn't have to do
with his albeit very controversial work
with psychic children this the space
kids as he called them. It was because
Puharic had figured out Tesla technology
like really figured it out.
>> Really?
>> Yes. And
>> where's the evidence for that? That's
insane. Okay, so let's get into this
story a little bit. Right
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back to today's episode.
Lab 9 was burned down didn't have to do
with his albeit very controversial work
with psychic children, the space kids as
he called them. It was because Puharic
had figured out Tesla technology like
really figured it out.
>> Really?
>> Yes. And
>> where's the evidence for that? That's
insane. [clears throat]
>> Okay, so let's get into the story a
little bit. Right. So
in 1976,
first of all, Puharic knew this guy uh
John um John O'Neal who had had known
Tesla and had written a an early
biography of Tesla. He he knew this guy
personally from early in his career and
he spent decades studying Tesla on the
side of everything else. Puharic did as
an engineer, as somebody who, you know,
developed these TD devices and so forth.
So he spends decades studying Tesla and
then in 1976
he notices cuz he's working with all
these machines that involve extremely
low frequency. He notices that there is
a
signal coming into the continental
United States on a trajectory that he
believes means it's emanating from the
Soviet Union. And in particular, he's
able somehow to trace these scalar waves
back to their point of origin
um at Ria in I believe it's Latvia and
uh Gomel in Bellarus which were then
both part of the Soviet Union.
and he starts researching this and he
comes to the conclusion that the Soviet
Union has constructed
nine Tesla towers. You know that the
tower that Tesla developed a prototype
for at Colorado Springs and then he
built one that was meant to be
operational at Warden Cliff on Long
Island and then JP Morgan screwed him
and the tower got demolished and so
forth. This is not incidental at all
because JP Morgan wound up becoming one
of the financial backers of rise of Nazi
Germany and one of the contributors to
eventually a generation later the
founding of the World Commerce
Corporation. Okay.
>> And I believe he also at the end of his
life colluded with Russia.
>> Yes. And and also I've done other
research if you want to read about this.
It's in my book um Oult Horizons which
is a collection of essays. I did other
research that shows JP Morgan was
involved in in in engineering the the
sinking of the Titanic and the murder of
all those people in the middle of the
Atlantic. Seriously,
>> that that was done on purpose.
>> You think so?
>> Yes. Yes. Why?
>> Uh there were multiple reasons.
>> Rivals with the multiple reason.
>> Yes. Okay. John Jacob Aster who died
that night.
>> Yeah.
>> Had decided to fund and back Tesla. He
after Morgan screwed Tesla.
>> Is this true?
>> Yes. This is 100% true.
>> This is the most insane thing ever.
Really?
>> Okay. John Jacob had decided to come in
as the angel investor to save Tesla from
the ruin that Morgan was trying to put
him in. And in in particular, what Aster
was interested in was the
electrogravidics wingless propulsion
application of world wireless.
>> Is there documentation of this?
>> There is. You can look into it.
>> That's where where can we look? So
um
look look at my essay uh called Titanic
Histori.
>> Okay.
>> In the book Occult Horizons. Okay.
>> The reason I called it that Titanic
Histori.
>> Yeah.
>> Is because
>> now I don't want to go on a whole derail
from what we were talking about Puhar
and Tesla Towers and all that but long
story short. Okay. What I discovered was
that
there was a precursor to the OSS that
was a corporate crime syndicy
intelligence service
nominally
working for the United States at least
constituted largely by Americans and it
was based in the hotel Atoria the the
Aster hotel in New York City.
>> Okay, which was demolished uh to build
the um Empire State Building.
And
>> what was the intelligence organization
called?
>> It it didn't have a name, which is why I
call it the Atoria group.
>> Do you know who it involved?
>> Yeah.
>> Okay.
>> All the corporate who's who of that
time. Okay.
>> Like uh I list about like 12 or 14 names
of of key people who were involved.
Haramman was involved. You know, the
railroad magnet Haramman. um
this guy who
>> Haramman also you know was of Brown
Brothers Haramman yes fame which
basically turned into the CIA.
>> Yes. And you know the Aster now and um
Aster's cousin was also part of this
group.
>> Uhhuh. the guy who founded the um Aster
Hotel
>> and he had an axe to grind against his
against John Jacob Aster and they had a
serious enmity and so I think he
conspired together with Morgan and
Haramman and these others to kill John
Jacob Aster aboard the Titanic. Uh but
they also used it as insurance fraud
because what what Morgan did was he
[snorts] swapped the Titanic and the
Olympic. the the um Olympic was an aging
ocean liner which had to be retired
anyway. It had like run its course as a
serviceable liner and the Titanic
was a new relatively new sister ship
which was not identical but very close
in structure to the Olympic. So Morgan
runs the company that, you know, is is
uh, you know, basically
sailing these um these liners, right?
And so he has a a crew the they keep the
ships in dock for some inexplicable
period of time without being used. And
he has a crew go in and make the Olympic
look like the Titanic and change all the
signage on the Titanic and make it look
like the Olympic. And then they sailed
the Olympic as the Titanic. And the
Olympic was an old vessel to begin with.
So it like was not in perfect operating
condition. And the Titanic was made to
sail faster, sail harder. So the people
sailing the ship like were, you know,
instructed to sail it to the
specifications at at the capacities that
Titanic was supposed to be fitted for.
And there's also indication that it was
kind of deliberately driven into an
iceberg.
>> Really?
>> Yes. And so point being, it allowed him
to carry out insurance fraud because he
he claimed the insurance money on what
was actually the Olympic.
>> JP Morgan did
>> JP Morgan did. It was a huge insurance
fraud.
And um so they sank this old ship that
had to be retired anyway. And the thing
that sailed for years after that as the
Olympic was the real Titanic.
So anyway, how how did we get into this
whole thing? Tesla. Yes. Aster. Yeah.
Right. So, poor Aster,
who was a very interesting character, by
the way, he wrote some whole sci-fi
novel.
>> Wow.
>> About like um you know, higher
intelligences and other worlds in the
cosmos.
>> I didn't know that.
>> Yeah. He was a very visionary, romantic
guy. And eventually Tesla, I think, was
able to prevail over that side of him to
convince him to basically, you know,
lift Tesla up from out of the ruin that
Morgan was trying to put him in. Okay.
short-lived uh endeavor. So, but the
point is this that Tesla developed this
whole physics and Puhar spent decades
studying it. Then he realizes in 1976
that the Soviets are using these Tesla
towers. All right. What I was saying is
this is that he figures out that the
Soviets have built I think I think the
number was nine which is staggering of
these Tesla towers of the kind that
Nicola Tesla himself had constructed at
Colorado Springs and Warden Cliff but he
they built them all underground. So most
people have the impression which I think
has been deliberately promulgated that
the Tesla towers are broadcasting
electricity because you know lightning
bolts come out of the top of Tesla
coils. And so this impression has been
conveyed that a Tesla tower was supposed
to wirelessly broadcast electricity like
up to the ionosphere and then devices
like even light bulbs would pick this up
wirelessly from out of the ionosphere as
like some kind of ambiently radiating
electricity. That's not the case at all.
And Puar figured that out. Like what's
actually going on with a Tesla tower is
that the bottom third third or fourth of
it which has a rod that's driven down
into the earth into the bedrock is
propagating a scalar wave through the
earth. It's a scalar wave generating
device. And if you set if you set up two
of these and you cause their scalar
waves to interfere to be slightly out of
phase with each other but to interfere
at a distant target location, you can
tune it so that information is conveyed
through the vacuum or through the
quantum potential field to then release
electromagnetic energy at the target
location.
And specifically, Pohar um realized that
there's a 45mi radius for the generation
of this electromagnetic energy at the
target location for interfering scalar
waves. And
he was uh monitoring this woodpecker
signal from the Soviet Tesla towers
through 1976
and noticing an intensification in a
certain geographical area.
Then on July 13th, 1977,
the power lines and power stations in
New York City and the greater New York
City area fried from the bottom up. And
the power companies lied about this.
They said it was hit by lightning from
above. But people who witnessed it said
it was like electricity was coming out
from the earth and up these towers and
frying them. Okay?
And also people saw when the lights went
out, people saw this weird auroral like
glow briefly form over the greater New
York area.
>> What was the conventional explanation?
>> That a electric storm, you know, fried
the power grid and and and overcharged
it. And
>> was there a storm at the time? there was
uh like ambient electricity and and
lightning in various areas but which
would also be a result of releasing
electromagnetic energy at the end of
interfering scalar waves.
>> Was the weather also bad or was it just
fine?
>> No, it was like a weird coalescing of
like of electrical energy
>> pretty suddenly
>> and within a 45 mile radius which is
what he had calculated as the the radius
for for this kind of effect. What year
is this?
>> It's July 13th to 14th, 1977. Okay.
>> So, Puharic comes to this conclusion,
right?
>> And he's deeply disturbed by this
because he's like, "Okay, well, this is
not theoretical anymore. Now, one of the
superpowers is starting to operationally
use this Tesla scalar technology as a
weapon.
>> Why wouldn't they just use that to win
the Cold War?"
>> Okay. So, then Puhar says,
>> "Dude, in DC,
>> get this. Get this." So then Puhar says
that and this is in an interview later
in the in I think it's 1984.
>> Okay. When so so let me let me come back
to this 1984 cuz I want to show you like
why did he start having such loose lips
by the mid 1980s and admitting things
that are going to you know get the
government very pissed off. Right? So
1977 July 77 this blackout and he starts
researching it intensively and he
develops a manuscript called Tesla's
magnifying transmitter
and the manuscript goes into detail
about the scalar physics that came from
out of Tesla based on Maxwell's
equations and so forth and um how u
Tesla towers work to produce scalar
waves and he connects it by the end of
the manuscript to the blackout out and
he says this is this was used as a
weapon
and you know this has gotten out of hand
and it's threatening the existence of
humanity on a planetary scale and we
could have the the weaponization of
geohysical effects. We could have
man-made natural catastrophes
>> from earthquakes to weather manipulation
to produce hurricanes and typhoons and
so forth. and you know the the powers
that be whether it's the Soviet Union or
our own government the United States
maybe he projects China in the near
future don't have the requisite ethics
or moral sensibility to be handling this
kind of technology and really this needs
to be revealed at the United Nations and
the planet is in peril and so on so
forth
>> is that paper public that he wrote
>> so let me let me explain so he writes
this manuscript
>> he starts to try to get a publishing
deal for this manuscript I if it was
with Dell
and it's it starts going through the
editorial process and all this
the editor
all of a sudden so it it's scheduled for
publication
I think most of the editing was done
the editor all of a sudden gets
extremely ill
and he says we have to put the project
on hold you know I'm debilitated I can't
work on it and after a While Puhar kind
of like consults with him again, well,
how you doing? Like, can we resume this
project? He goes, no, I think like
anytime I start this project again, I
might get really ill
and they abandon publication of it at
Dell. Puhar doesn't give up. He keeps
trying to get a new publisher for this
manuscript.
He takes this. So, Puharic was doing
work in Mexico um with this um shaman
called Pashita which he had developed a
relationship with in the 1950s back when
he was doing the you know tests with
psilocybin and Amanita Moscaria right so
he he tended to go back to me Mexico and
check on you know his Mexican and shaman
associates and so forth and he happened
to be on a trip to Mexico in August of
1978 so about a year later almost
exactly you know 13 months after the
blackout and after he's already written
this book Tesla's magnifying
transmitter.
He's in Mexico and he gets a call
saying, "Your house has burned down in
Austining." And what's worse is that
most of the space kids were in there.
And so the subsequent fire department
investigation,
>> explain who the space kids are for the
>> Yeah. So the space kids were um Now, we
could go into a whole thing just on this
cuz I found weird things involving this
that aren't part of the the public
record. to the extent there's even a
public account of this. I found other
things that undermine that. But
supposedly the story is like like what
we've heard from Greg Greg Malazzi
um in his film Mind Traveler. The story
is that
when Puharic was taking Yuri Geller
around as some kind of a circus handler,
right? Getting him all kinds of speaking
engagements and television appearances.
and Yuri Geller's abilities to bend
metal and perform other psychic feats
was being widely broadcasted. There were
a bunch of young people all over the
place who upon watching Geller perform
these feats on television suddenly
developed these abilities themselves and
like concerned parents were were getting
a hold of Puharic is saying my kid is
bending spoons like what the hell did
you do? He watched this Geller character
and now he's like, you know, levitating
forks like what what is this? You know,
and so then Puhares kind of goes, this
is insane. He kind of goes doortodoor to
these families. And the thing is he was
an incredibly charismatic person. Like
if you if you look at recordings of him
and and see how he speaks, not just how
he writes, but how he speaks and his
demeanor, he was an incredibly
charismatic person, very genial. And he
convinced some of these parents to
basically let him study their kids. And
he starts to like
congregate these kids like feral cats
inside his home. And Austin later, by
the way, he became like a cat lady. Poor
like literally became like his house was
like full of cats, stray cats. Anyway,
so he he he corrals these psychic kids,
gellerlings as they called them, into
the lab 9 that he set up at his home in
Austining, suburb of New York City. He
would commute from there to the
intellect office in Midtown. But he
can't bring the kids to the intellect
office cuz this is shady stuff. You're
experimenting on children.
>> It was called Lab 9.
>> Lab 9. Yeah.
>> It's kind of weird. It was called Lab 9
and they were in touch with what they
called the Nine.
>> Well, that's why you called it Lab 9.
>> Okay. named after the nine,
>> then that's less weird.
>> These supposedly discarnate space
intelligences
>> who for some reason need a bunch of kids
to tell them what's going on inside the
Kremlin.
>> Right. Right. [laughter]
>> This is ridiculous. But I mean, these
were kids. They didn't question him, you
know? Right.
>> So, so anyway,
>> so wait, but what do you think then? So,
okay. So, he's recruiting all these
telepathic highinetic
telepathic gifted kids.
>> It's like a real life X-Men or
something.
>> That's exactly what it said. He's
Professor X in the Manor House.
>> There you go. Yeah. So, it's this wild
story. And then where I never get
clarity from people who are extremely
deep on him, you know, and I think for
example, when I speak to Greg, I think
he's being very intellectually honest
where it's very hard to say whether
Puharic believes in alien beings and
non-human intelligence or whether it's
some cynical just he knows the
parasychology stuff is real, but it's
really just this intelligence gathering
sort of effort.
It is complicated. I that you know after
having studied him deeply enough to to
write a book about it
>> definitely he was using the nine as some
kind of an egregoric tulpa construct to
psychotronically manipulate gifted
psychics to carry out intelligence
operations. There's no question about
that. M but does that mean that he
thought it was total and that
you know he that there was nothing on
the other side of it that he was
engaging with? That's not so clear at
all because especially late in his life,
Puhar himself claims he starts to get
messages from these entities and he kind
of in a somewhat insane way, frankly,
reorganizes his life around it around
these like cosmic clock messages he gets
on this like Tesla watch that he
developed supposedly also from out of
Tesla's patents.
>> Okay. So, he ended up a believer.
>> Yeah. And did he drink his own Kool-Aid?
I mean, that's a possibility, too. Well,
all all so many of these stories are
like you stare into the abyss long
enough, the abyss stares back or
something. You know, you read
>> Diana Pulka's great book, American
Cosmic, and the first half is like this
is a a scop built up in a Hollywood
studio and then the second half is like
I've fallen in and I know, you know, and
it's it's my own story, too. I like sort
of, you know,
>> got completely, you know, redpilled on
this stuff by Jacqu Valet, how put off,
people like that where, you know, before
that I was like, "This guy has to be a
joke." Yeah.
>> You know, so he has all these space kids
and they're channeling the nine and
they're doing intelligence gathering
stuff and he
>> maybe initially is somewhat
>> skeptical and invol you know there's
some psychic there's some manipulation
>> but eventually he sort of turns into a
believer
>> and then he's also doing all of this
research on ones scal waves as weapons
as weapons. That's so so I think it was
like um
August 8th or 9th something like that
1978
he's in Mexico and he gets this call
that you know your house has been burned
down and the fire department
investigation which was thorough
determined that the arsonists
had approached the property from two
directions
with a clear intent to trap all the
people inside to start the fire in a way
where there would be no escape from the
house and the space kids are in there.
And so they wanted to murder these
people.
>> Jesus Christ.
>> And and blame it on Puharic. Like
basically be like this guy like first of
all these children shouldn't be in his
house. Second of all, they all just got
emilated, right? Fortunately, um a
couple of the space kids came back to
the house early. Like they had gone out
to do something and they came back
unexpectedly early. uh just as the fires
had started and they were able to get
everyone everyone out alive. Okay. But
the house burned down and
so Puharic um was convinced that this
was the CIA who did this to him and he
he becomes increasingly hostile to the
US government after that. And this is
why to go back to you know what I
started on earlier by 1984 when he's
giving lectures here and there he lets a
lot of things slip in a way that you
know compromises national security. And
one of the things he says that answers
your question earlier is like why didn't
the Soviets just use this against us is
well first of all I mean we we had a lot
of nuclear weapons. So if we realized
they were using scalar weapons against
us on a large scale, that would have
triggered a nuclear war, which is one
reason the US government might not want
to tell the American public that New
York City
at least suffered a test of a scalar
capability during that blackout. Okay?
Because you you don't want to drum up
the public into a fervor for nuclear war
with the Soviets. But the other reason
is that Puhar let slip in this lecture
in I think 1984. He says, "Oh yeah, and
you know, we started building them
ourselves." And he says, "We built one
in Alaska, United States,
one in South Africa."
>> Since 1976, the US has built one
broadcast tower in South Africa here.
And there's one in Alice Springs,
Australia, and one is I don't know where
this one's operational yet. One is in
the Antarctic in the McMmero Sound area.
So we bu that's one of the reasons for
the US relationship with the apartheid
government of South Africa is that that
geographical location was ideal for
triangulation in the Soviet Union. Okay,
rather than building another one within
the continental United States, they
wanted one in South Africa. And then he
goes and now they're built and now 1984
and now they're building a third one in
Antarctica.
>> No way.
>> And then he stops himself. Then he like
realizes like I'm saying that I
shouldn't be saying and he cuts himself
off. And this is all on record.
>> 1984. It's on video.
>> Find it on YouTube.
>> That is crazy.
>> And now we're building one in
Antarctica.
>> Yeah. And then you have, you know,
whistleblowers coming out of Antarctica
saying that we have Eric Hecker. Yeah.
Neutrino detectors and emitters and
stuff
>> causing earthquakes
>> like the New Zealand.
>> Christ Church earthquake. Exactly.
>> Wow.
>> Which is what Puharic was worried about.
And so Puharic
by the early 1980s was going around with
Buckminister Fuller and trying to get
the United Nations to recognize that
this technology exists and that it's
apparel to humanity.
>> Whoa. That is wild.
So trippy. So and do we have that paper
that he tried to get submitted?
>> Oh, yeah. I I use it in my book on I
cite it repeatedly. I cite passages from
out of it.
>> I would love to read that. That is so
>> I'll send it over to you. You can find
PDFs of it floating around on the
internet. Um there the one that I got
was through a a Yugoslavian
sort of Tesla society.
>> It's wild that he was writing and
talking about this in the late '7s,
early 80s because Thomas Bearden was
this Navy guy who was also talking
about, you know, these mega death
weapons from the Soviets. They work
together.
>> That's fascinating because he's talking
about scalar weaponry coming out of the,
you know, the Soviet Union. Barden and
Puharic were they were friends
essentially and they cite each other.
So, and this is a whole other
interesting story. I I did a whole
series on Tom Bearden in my Substack uh
called Psychotronic Excalibur. It's on
my Substack. It's like six parts or
something like that. And it's an
exigesis of this book that Bearden wrote
called the Excalibur Briefing. Now, get
this is some crazy So Bearden
starts writing this book at exactly the
same time Bhar starts writing Tesla's
magnifying transmitter. They're writing
the manuscripts in parallel. Listen to
what happens to the the Excalibur
briefing. Bearden finishes this book
and he submits it to a the publisher
and
um arsonists and like like pe you know
henchmen show up to the publisher and
set a fire and smash all the printing
presses that were supposed to run the
plates for this book.
And I forget what happened. Some kind of
harm actually also comes to the the
publisher himself. I forget how he's
manhandled.
And so then the publisher hires a
security firm because he's determined
now. He's pissed off to guard the
printing press. And I think they had to
set up a different press. And actually
the the book that comes out of is kind
of shitty because it didn't use the
professional printing process cuz it had
been destroyed by these, you know,
saboturs.
So they get the book out under like
literally a security cordon.
And this book is impossible to get your
hands on. You have to you the copies
cost like three 400. It's one of these
books is like way out of print. 400
bucks to get a hold of a copy.
And the whole thing is about how
scalar wave propagating technology like
Tesla towers are actually psychotronic
devices
and that it's not just about conveying
electromagnetic energy at a distance.
These things tune quantum potential in a
way that can produce apparitions and
that can propagate thoughts
telepathically into people's minds.
>> Whoa.
>> Okay. So, here we get into what
psychotronics really is. is that Tom
Bearden and Andrea Puharic
had figured out that
uh manipulation
of information exchange in a non-local
way
is a science that has technological
applications.
So that in principle and this goes back
to the beginning of our conversation
about the soul as an information
energetic matrix or what Bharaj called
he he called it a nuclear plasma not
because it had anything to do with
uranium or plutonium but because it has
a nucleus what he called a mobile center
of consciousness and it's like a plasma
in other words he took the idea of a a
protoplasm the undifferi protoplasm and
ectoplasm and he he develops this term
of nuclear plasma from out of it and so
he thinks this nuclear nuclear plasma
can be manipulated and information can
be exchanged between these nuclear
plasmas through extremely low frequency
scalar wave propagation
and that machines can be built for this
purpose and that this is the great
discovery of Nicola Tesla that's been
hidden so that Tesla was involved in
magic in a way actually and that's
what's been hidden and so what this does
is it and why I decided to write that
book is because it practically
dynamites the dichotomy between mind and
matter or the spiritual and the physical
in exactly the way that I was trying to
do from my first book Prometheus and
Atlas with my proposal for a spectral
revolution. Right.
>> Well, yeah. It's it's it's almost like a
causal carrier wave mechanism for
consciousness.
It's fascinating because um you know
we're now talking about extended
electronamics. these sort of models that
yeah involve you know a more faithful
adherence to Maxwell's original
equations where the Lorren gauge isn't
you know automatically set to zero. So
the the square of the vector and scalar
potentials added up doesn't necessarily
equal zero and so you can have uh you
know the existence of vector and scalar
potentials without a traditional
electromagnetic wave and then maybe even
actually manipulate those vector and
scalar potentials. And um we were having
a wild conversation last night with um
Stuart Hammerov and Hal Putoff about
this. And Stuart Hammerov of course is a
collaborator of Roger Penrose his ideas
of of of consciousness and um and how
put off was asking him to do the
microtubules form a Josephson junction
which is essentially a quantum receiver
which would be able to pick up these
sort of you know vector and scalar
potentials. So, it'd be wild if we found
a carrier wave for for consciousness,
you know. Um, Ingoing Swan was able to
and all these, you know, telepathic
people are able to somehow affect things
through, you know, hard shielding and
things that would cut off
electromagnetic waves. And so, you know,
I think if people who are at the
forefront of all these programs are
openly speculating that it's this exotic
offshoot of electromagnetism, that's
it's very interesting. And then I
suspect that there's something still far
more fundamental about consciousness.
Maybe thoughts maybe maybe semantic
thought or you know maybe there maybe
there's something around that and then
consciousness itself feels way deeper
than just scalar physics or something
but well you know so okay so first of
all
first discovered that there may be a
manipulable carrier wave for
ESP and potential production of PK back
in the 1950s when he was doing tests
with Faraday cages at the Roundtable
Foundation
>> where his initial hypothesis uh I
believe it was in Mer Maryland or Maine
I uh that you know
>> the round table was in Maine
>> Maine Maine in Maine where he had been
funded by by you know intelligence um
apparatuses naval intelligence CIA to
set up this roundt foundation in the
early 50s and he initially hypothesized
that if you put a psychic inside of a
Faraday cave age they'll do poorly
because you know it was naively assumed
that maybe there's some kind of
electromagnetic wave that's propagating
information in in ESP but he found that
actually they do much better inside the
Faraday cage and then he started testing
like okay well what is it that can
penetrate a Faraday cage and this was
the beginning of his work on scalar
waves and extremely low frequency
modulation and so the so okay the other
thing that Puhares discovered about the
blackout in July of 1977 7 was that
the scalar waves coming from uh Rian
Gomel in the Soviet Union were being
modulated with an extremely low
frequency at a rate of um 10 or 11 like
11 hertz.
And the the the normal like um
human baseline for a frequency of
well-being that's in tune with the
Schuman resonance is 8 hertz. And if you
take it up to 10 or 11 hertz, people get
extremely agitated and violent. And if
you bring it down to like six hertz,
people get really depressed and
debilitated and nauseous and
disoriented. And so the Soviets were
broadcasting at 10 or 11 hertz. And this
was agitating people into this mass
rioting and arson that took place. I
mean, it was like apocalyptic for 24
hours or so. And um so so the thing is
it looks like there is a carrier wave
for sigh that can be technologically
manipulated.
Now consciousness
is a question of self reflection
because look plants are capable of sigh.
Cleave Baxter found this by the way he
worked with Puar. wherein Baxter were
working. This guy was connected to
everybody,
>> you know, he was connected to Dr.
Putoff.
>> Yeah.
>> So, and
>> and he met with
>> Go Swan to SRRI
>> and Puhar met with Towns and Brown, too.
>> Yeah. What would be one of the kind of
most your first used use cases of MK
Ultra or mind control? It would be
around secret technology be around
technology that you really wouldn't want
to let let out. And if you if you can do
the Manurion candidate stuff and create
splits between people, which
>> they definitely can do. You know, there
were these way there were these like
trigger words. Yep. You know, where
you'd have couriers, spies or whatever
that would go, you know, you'd say the
word and then they'd split and their
altar would come out or something.
>> Then why wouldn't you do that with um
secret technology?
>> Yeah. And I believe Bob Lazar even met
with a hypnotist in Vegas after his
experience and the hypnotist said he had
clearly
gone through some sort of you know
intense hypnotic stuff like you know
mind control stuff and to me that
doesn't necessarily take away from his
testimony which you know it's kind of
hard to argue he was at least at S4 Area
51 and you know there's a great movie
that my buddy Luigi just just made on
that everyone should check out But um
yeah, like maybe you'd use it to keep
the technology secret
>> for sure. So he was extremely well
positioned and and therefore we have to
take a lot of the statements he's making
as fact, not speculation. And so but the
thing is about consciousness, right?
Plants have ESP. They have incredibly
strong ESP. Cleaxer demonstrated this in
the laboratory in 1970s and plants are
certainly not conscious. They're
sentient. So sigh is a property of
sentience not of consciousness. Okay.
And that property can be technologically
manipulated.
>> That doesn't mean consciousness
is reducible
to something
quasi mechanical. Well, does but no. So
I love this, but this brings up all
sorts of weird epistemic questions of
cognitive sovereignty. And just like you
have the hard problem of consciousness
with David Chalmer's where it's like
>> you can't prove that I'm not a Pz
zombie. I can't prove you're not a Pz
zombie. You know that we're not AI
constructs or whatever.
In this paradigm you get into you can't
prove that I'm not mind controlled
cyborg. I can't prove you're not a
mindcrolled cyborg.
>> That's where consciousness comes in.
Okay. And and that's so Hegel
Garrick Hegel was right to believe that
consciousness is a dialectical
developmental process of everinccreasing
self-awareness and self-transparency
>> and and reflectiveness, right? And so
the more unconscious a person or a
society is, the more easily they're
manipulated, including psychotronically,
>> right? And you know, we can see from the
some very adept psychics like Ted Cerios
or Ted Owens
>> that it doesn't correlate to
self-reflectiveness very much at all. In
fact, it might kind of be a negative
correlation, right? And so developing
sighability or having sibility activated
in you by some kind of a psychotronic
machine
is not the same thing as elevating your
consciousness. Right? And so you could
be a very conscious person and not have
much sability or you could be a you know
a sigh adept and be very unconscious.
Right? And so I think that you know the
main point of the book I wrote on puhar
intellectronics is to tease out what he
meant by this term namely that because
psychotronic technologies of the kind he
was responsible for developing pose such
a serious threat to human agency it's of
paramount important for us to develop
our intellect to where we have greater
self-consciousness and capacity for
self-reflection
>> because otherwise we're going to destroy
ourselves with this technology. ology.
>> So then if you get into sort of you know
if there's some higher sort of cosmic
war timeline war or something and this
idea you presented earlier of um some of
these donations these gifts given around
technology uh actually being bad or or
causing detours or meaning to you know
the intention being that you know uh
humanity is going to be sort of clamped
down upon
>> preempt and co-opt what would have been
organic technological developments.
>> Yeah. So, so, so, so what do you what do
you mean by that? And I knew one example
is I just had, you know, um this kid
Deep Prasad on who's, you know, really
smart quantum computing guy and
>> I've met him.
>> Okay, nice. And we were talking um and
he he mentioned you know he was like
fiber optics uh you know integrated
circuits you know lasers think about all
the things that have led to modern
computing. If you take the Philip J
Corso narrative at face value that that
was transferred from you know alien
derived material integrated circuits
lasers and fiber optics those are the
only three things you need to build a
data center today that's it so I almost
feel like our uh AI breakthroughs and
stuff was like a like a Trojan horse
from aliens potentially.
>> Yeah it's
>> You think it's It's
And this goes back to one of our earlier
>> disagreements is that
>> I think there's a lot of evidence and
and Puharic would agree with this. Yeah.
>> There's a lot of evidence that the craft
that came down in Roswell, specifically
Roswell, not like, you know, the Trinity
crash, not Aztec, you know, but Roswell
in particular, was a Nazi craft. And the
stuff that was recovered from it, laser,
something like early fiber optics,
velcro, kevlar, were all
state-of-the-art technologies that were
being developed toward the end of World
War II in Nazi Germany.
>> So what what explains Corso's behavior?
Why would Corso come out and say, you
know, I swear to God, I was on this, you
know, for foreign technology desk for
the Pentagon and I was to to do
>> it's foreign technology.
>> So that's it. That's it. It's just and
and then
>> you need the alien cover story. So he he
was explicitly doing that as a cover
even though his son now will say you
know I think his father
>> he he could also have been scoped
>> into into promulgating that cover story
but I think the cover story was
necessary and I think the cover story is
also behind the initial Roswell press
release like why would you even do that
that whole the initial saucer crash
story right
>> I think they promulgate the government
itself promulgated this alien narrative
and then covered it up to further
legitimize it
>> so what what was that Nazi experimental
craft. Then
>> could see the thing is though,
>> the Horton flying wing.
>> Yes. Yes. And and the thing is you have
to hide that because that's worse than
maybe aliens crashing.
>> That's kind of what Annie Jacobson hints
at in her book Area 51. She thinks that
they were like on on the hunt for the
Hortons. And you think Kenneth Arnold
saw
>> it's in the memo.
>> Well, he says that we have the knowledge
to build some of these crafts. He also
says, "I need you to find out where the
hell Horton brothers are. This looks an
awful lot like what they're doing."
>> I've never seen that.
>> Yeah, that it's in in the there was a
fake version of the Twining memo which
was widely circulated and then the
original undoceded version was excavated
and it had there's a number of specific
passages that have been modified in the
fake version that had earlier been
widely circulated.
>> I I really want to see this because this
is a really important data point. So,
>> you can easily find it
>> for the audience. Nathan Twining was
head of air material command. and he was
responsible for all aircraft development
in the air force and you know he's
writing this memo after Roswell in 1947
and after Kenneth Arnold's sighting and
he's saying you know uh UFOs are not
visionary or fictitious they you know
extreme rates of climb maneuverability
that sort of thing you know all the kind
of observables that we think of today
and then there's a postcript which I
find fascinating that Nick Cook who's a
great kind of aviation historian points
out in his book the hunt for zero point
where uh he says uh we actually have the
knowledge um to build some of these
crafts. And he even goes into specs like
I think a certain range that goes well
beyond the U2 spy plane which was built
years later, like almost a decade later.
Um and he says if but if we were to
actually execute on this knowledge and
build these programs, you know, uh the
programs would need to exist outside of,
you know, bureaucracy cycling in in and
out of kind of civilian government.
Basically implying like this would need
to get bound up in atomic secrecy or
something.
>> But you're saying there's another
version that where he says we need to
look for the Horton brothers, which are
these essentially Nazi aviation uh
pioneers, you know, brothers who they
built these like they look like
boomerangs almost.
>> Yeah.
>> You're saying really?
>> Yes. And
>> are you sure?
>> Yes. And there there's a passage where
he says something like this looks an
awful lot like what the Horton brothers
were doing. We have to find out where
they are, whether they're in Russia or
somewhere else. cuz this looks a lot
like what they were doing.
>> Where would they be flying over Roswell
from? Like where would they even be
from? Like Argentina?
>> There are stories um which I think we
got into this in a previous uh podcast.
There are stories that appear in the
Spanish press in 1946
that describe Auto Scorzani launching
saucershaped rockets and other weird
projectiles across the Atlantic from
Spain toward the continental United
States with Fran Francisco Franco
personally observing the launches.
>> But then what's so weird is like you
also clearly have a connection between
UFOs and nuclear weapons. Yeah. that far
transcends that and
>> yeah that's the overlords.
>> Yeah. So you have that but then it's
like is are both true because you have
you have thousands of documents from
army air force CIA you know pick your
intel or you know military organization
in the United States between 1945 the
advent of the nuclear age and the
building of the U2 spy plane. So you're
not going to ever mistake a fighter jet
for a UFO. You know, maybe U2 high
altitude recon plane. You can
>> not even a U2.
>> Some people might have or you know,
SR71s maybe or whatever.
>> SR71 maybe. That's that was a little bit
weird
>> later. Yeah. Um so to me that is a like
checkmate one debunk for any of the
debunkers who say that there's no UFO
connection with nuclear weapons. It is
long-standing widespread. Robert
Hastings documents this extremely
thoroughly and a lot of transcendent
weird stuff happens around our nuclear
programs. Um, even in Japan, I was just
there, you know, they have the
Fukushima, you know, civilian nuclear
grid. They built a mountain, they built
a a museum on a mountain called Mount
Senori, which is dedicated to UFOs
because UFOs show up there so
constantly. So the aam's eraser almost
if you accept that expanded reality
which I do is that Roswell which was the
site of the largest site of tactical
nukes in the world at the time something
weird happened there and Jesse Marcel's
you know testimony should just be taken
at face value that this thing is just
alien
the material recovery doesn't support
that
>> because when you look at the interior of
Nordic craft
um as described by let's say Travis
Walton.
>> Mhm.
>> Where you know initially Walton was
handled by the grays and then he broke
free from these gray robots as he
described them and then he counters the
Nordics and the Nordics handle him for
the rest of his abduction. And the way
he describes the interior of that craft
matches many other such descriptions.
It's very sleek and streamlined and
exotic. I mean, it's not like like what
Bob Lazar was describing
>> in the interior of the craft he worked
on at Esport. It's not the janky
that showed up at Roswell, like early
lasers and Velcro and Kevlar and that's
like someone, you know, Nazis put
together something and sent it over.
They got it. They crashed it over here.
>> I don't know. But it's almost like they
were inspired by the bits and pieces to
create those things. And
>> I do find it interesting. Yes.
>> I mean, magenta is the starting point
for their reverse engineering efforts.
Okay. But to go back to your earlier
question, which is philosophically the
more interesting one.
>> Well, I also we have to we have to find
that twining memo cuz I'm I'm not sure.
>> You should be able to find it easily. I
mean,
>> him looking for the Horton brothers.
>> Yes, it's a memo. It's it's what there's
more than one Twining associated
document. Okay. And it's one of the
twining associated documents which there
was an earlier doctorred version that
was circulating around for a long time
cited by many UFO researchers which um
basically had a bunch of alien focused
passages inserted into it.
>> Wow.
And there's an original version which
has since been recovered
where you know a lot of it reads the
same but the alien passages aren't there
and there's reference to finding the
Horton brothers and what they're working
on from where.
>> Wild.
>> So yeah, go track that one down.
>> I will.
>> Yeah. But but to go back to your earlier
interesting question about um capture of
human technological development and
donations, right? The point is that
we were in a position with Nicola Tesla
and his developments of Maxwell's
equations
in a technologically applicable manner.
We were in a position to develop this
technology ourselves from the early
years of the 20th century. There are
UFOs in Tesla's
um patent drawings and in his in in his
sketches, in his concept sketches,
wingless
aircraft that are being propelled
somehow by these transmitting towers. So
we could have arrived at that technology
ourselves within a few decades. Instead,
they dropped something off and then they
secured control over it
to prevent a large-scale public
development of the same technology. And
this has probably been done a number of
times throughout human history.
>> So when you say they drop something off
>> Magenta.
>> Okay. And they they
so yeah the point is how would they
stagnate it by dropping it off? I mean
>> because they dropped it off inside the
greater German Reich or you know fascist
Europe in general and they knew that
what's going to take control of that is
a totalitarian regime.
>> So your point is they dropped it off to
the power structure to those in power
>> to those who they knew would do their
dirty work for them and become the new
enforcer class. Well, I I find it
interesting that Maronei was
experimenting with his death ray right
around the time that Magenta happened.
And there's all sorts of discussion of
high-owered radar interference and
microwave weaponry interference with,
you know, UFOs and their flight
patterns. So, I wonder if there was
possibly some sort of connection there.
>> That's possible, too. But again, I go
back to my earlier point that if if it
was an accident and let's say some high
power radar or whatever brought it down
or a laser or something,
for sake, go recover the
material. Like, do not allow Nazi
Germany of all countries to retrieve
this where you know that they are the
one country that has the physicists and
engineers that are probably going to be
able to figure this out.
>> Go get the freaking material back. And
then even worse, like you leave a Nordic
pilot there and they already have these
myths about the, you know, you know, the
elders of Thu and like, you know, the
the great Nordic ancestors and so forth.
And you know what they're going to do
when they find this, you know, ascended
master inside this craft?
>> Labensborn is established a year later.
>> So, so I I don't think it was an
accident. Do you believe, you know, um,
Eric Walker is the he was the president
of Penn State and, uh, this longtime CIA
life sciences guy, Kit Green, who's sort
of, you know, this famous psychiatrist
from the CIA. Um, he was in the office
of Eric Walker because Eric Walker is
rumored to be one of these sort of
majestic 12 guardians of the UFO issue.
Do you think that group existed? And
what do you think their role was
>> after having studied what what I used to
call in my writings disha the spider and
what I think Samosa accurately has
identified as the world commerce
corporation right what Tom Dong calls
the mayor consortium after having
studied that my conclusion is that the
original Jamie Shandera leaked majestic
12 documents are sophisticated forgeries
and that they're mixing some truth with
a lot of disinformation
>> clearly
>> such that there was an MJ control group
or magic or MJ12 or Majestic whatever
there was something like that and and it
went on for many decades and there are
reports that you know up till very
recently Dick Cheney was a member of it
>> that's right
>> that Henry Kissinger was a member of it
>> Kissinger was by the way very close with
Nelson Rockefeller Rockefeller through
his whole career. Some people think he
his allegiance,
>> what's that?
>> And David Rockefeller.
>> And I didn't know that
>> he created the freaking uh trilateral
commission with David Rockefeller.
>> That makes sense. And you know, some
people thought he was more beholden to
Nelson than to Nixon. And uh
Interesting. Okay. Yeah.
>> Yeah. He was in with the Rockefellers.
He was their man.
>> Okay.
>> Did he work with the World Commerce
Corporation?
>> No question about it. the fact that
everything else he was involved with,
including being a member of MJ12,
whatever that actually was,
>> including founding the trilateral
commission with David Rockefeller,
including his connection with Nelson
Rockefeller, this guy, like he's the guy
they send to bring China into the fold,
he is definitely an operator.
>> There's also this apocryphal but pretty
verified story. There's this guy Bill
Steinman who's a UFO researcher who's
researching the Aztec crash and he keeps
running into this name Eric Henry Wing
who's this head of special projects um
kind of genius Nazi operation paperclip
scientist and uh yeah head of special
projects at Wright Patterson and he
makes his way to um Kirtland Air Force
Base where he's running a lot of you
know atomic special weapons stuff and
Bill Steinman shows up at his house
after he had passed. I believe his wife
then says to Steinman or I think it was
Yeah. Eric Eric Henry Wing worked for a
guy and his initials were H A K.
>> Yeah.
>> And he sort of figured out it's it's
Henry A. Kissinger and Henry Kissinger
was definitely
>> you know doing a lot of atomic stuff. In
fact, he was in also doing um Nazi uh
tech retrieval stuff too. He was at
Oberammer in in in um in Germany.
>> That's right. and you know before going
to Harvard actually and had intelligence
ties you know basically since his early
20s. What do you think's going to happen
with UFO disclosure on a go forward
basis? It feels like Trump is more open
to this topic than ever. Steven Miller
apparently owns the issue for him. You
know head of Homeland Security Council
and also just a longtime kind of Trump
loyalist which is kind of a good sign.
Um I think that you know maybe they're
saving it for kind of a rainy day. uh
you know and and maybe they understand
that it could be a good kind of PR move,
but they also probably realize it would
be a disastrous PR move if there's no
actual incontrovertible evidence
underneath it. And so it seems like
they're looking for that and the deep
state quote unquote might be playing
kind of shell games with them. What do
you think is going on? And if you had to
predict, what do you think will happen?
>> Well, I agree with all of how you
implicitly frame that. In other words,
whatever is supposed to pass
for disclosure from out of the Trump
administration is being saved for a
rainy day when there's another Epstein
scandal or an unpopular war and Trump
needs people to focus on something else.
But the more, you know, important
question is
how limited will that disclosure be? Uh
how um you know just you know ornamental
is it? And um you know to what extent
can any significant disclosure be forced
by any sitting administration whether
this one or a subsequent administration
let's say Rubio becomes president he's
been thoroughly briefed on this subject
at least as far as elected officials go
right and he decides to pursue it more
seriously than Trump. Uh I don't think
he'll get anywhere. And I think that if
he starts to get somewhere, bad things
are going to happen to him because this
control group is not interested in in,
you know, letting any of this stuff out
into the public domain. It's interested
in weaponizing it for whatever endgame
it's had in mind for decades.
>> And I think we need to find some way to
throw a monkey wrench in that cuz I
don't think it's a good endgame.
>> What do you think the endgame is?
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because this control group is not
interested in in you know letting any of
this stuff out into the public domain.
It's interested in weaponizing it for
whatever endgame it's had in mind for
decades.
>> And I think we need to find some way to
throw a monkey wrench in that cuz I
don't think it's a good endgame.
>> What do you think the endgame is? a
reset
>> where basically advanced industrial
civilization is devastated on a global
scale and some kind of a neofudal power
structure is put into place and these
viceroys who have been clandestinely
manipulating things become the overt raj
you know governing the planet on behalf
of these davas
>> that's what I think the endgame and you
know what I'm very concerned about now
recently after having written this Puhar
book is that the kinds of geoysical
cataclysms that remote viewers have seen
like for example Lynn Buchanan
uh or the project that was run by Stefon
Schwarz where they looked at the year
2050
the kind of geohysical cataclysm where
they're describing earthquakes and you
know um uh famines and massive
precipitous sea level rise by like 200
ft worldwide within the next 30 years.
Okay.
Lynn Buchanan said way back when he
first told me about this and he's
discussed it publicly, it's a result of
manmade natural catastrophes.
>> The natural disaster
of the mid United States is going
completely dry.
you know, the weather changes and all
that that that's causing
um natural disaster, but it's man-made.
And I always wondered what the hell does
that mean, man? Man-made on that scale,
you know, like what would have to happen
for the sea level to rise 200 feet.
Well, uh Greenland and Antarctica would
have to melt precipitously. Well, what
the hell could do something like that?
What man-made like an asteroid can do
it? If an asteroid slams into both or
fragments of an asteroid, the heat and
impact could melt that ice sheet
precipitously. But if it's man-made,
what could do it? And now after having
studied the puhar material, I realized a
Tesla tower can do it.
>> If they turned on all these Tesla
transmitters and start, let's say, let's
say they engineer a war using scalar
weaponry, that could destabilize the the
relationship between the crust and the
mantle of the earth.
Well, there's so much more I want to get
into with you. You're in Austin because
you just gave a fascinating talk about
Carl Jung who wrote a book. Most people
don't know this because Carl Young is
conventionally thought of as, you know,
one of the fathers of modern psychology.
You have he was actually a contemporary
of Freud and they sort of split off and
he's sort of a more irrational, you
know, interested in the subconscious and
archetypes and that sort of thing. um
but but still cut from the same cloth in
many ways as as Freud. Um and people
don't know he wrote a book called Flying
Saucers and he was fascinated with this
subject. So what do you think and he
also wrote a book about synchronicities
and you just gave an interesting talk
about how synchronicities might actually
involve information theory underneath
them. What do you mean by that?
>> So that was a very small part of the
talk. It is a more significant part of
the book that the talk was based on. And
the book is called Thanosis which is a
contraction of Thanotos for death and
nosis in Greek. Um and you know this
this part of the book that I included in
the talk had to do with my critique of
Jung's concept of synchronicity which
you know he analy well I wouldn't say
exactly analyze he expounds upon at
length in the book by that name
synchronicity and then he also brings in
to his analysis of UFOs in his uh text
flying saucers
and basically my problem with Jung is
that he defines uh synchron ronicity as
an aausal connecting principle
whereby archetypes somehow
arrange
non-causal
pattern matching sort of pattern
connecting relationships between
disperate events non-locally
uh so that they strike a person as a
meaningful coincidence. Right?
And one line of critique of this is that
first of all, what defines the
boundaries of an event is subjective.
The contours of what's going to
constitute an event for one person or a
group of people is going to be, you
know, based on highly subjective
criteria of interpretation. So what
agency is it in the world at large or
the cosmos that is determining that you
know the the parameters of of this state
of affairs constitutes a discrete event
that's then going to be somehow
correlated with some other event
non-locally right Jung doesn't have an
answer for that the second issue with
this
is that
other than like the great mother most of
the more specific archetypes that
um presents in his writings are
culturally specific. And this is a point
that's lost on a lot of yians or or it's
sort of been like swept under the rug
because it has some controversial
ramifications where you know if you read
Jung carefully you understand that he
basically follows Gayarch Hegel in um in
claiming that particular cultures and
ethnicities have certain archetypes that
are not shared by others. for example,
the archetype of Won, which he saw
rising in Europe uh and and ultimately
possessing the German nation in the lead
up to the Second World War.
So, if archetypes are culturally
specific, then how are they the
organizing principle to determine an
objective definition of what counts for
an event for it to then be non-locally
correlated with another event? And then
third and finally, supposing archetypes
are somehow organizing disperate events
into some uh meaningful pattern. Well,
that's not a causal. That's either a
formal or a final cause on the
Aristotilian definition of causality.
So, Jung, who's a person who took
parasychology seriously, took UFOs
seriously, for some bizarre reason, is
reducing his conception of causality to
modern efficient causality. Well, no.
You know, we had a four-fold notion of
causality that prevailed for, you know,
centuries before daycart
where there's a material cause, there's
an efficient cause, a formal and a final
cause. And if archetypes are playing
some role in organizing disparate events
into meaningful coincidences, that is a
form of causality at work. So then I try
to understand well you know what kind of
causality is this exactly that would be
you know organizing disparate events um
into some striking uh um you know
meaningful coincidence and along with a
a whole host of other evidence that I
bring to bear on this question inosis
and that I tried to encapsulate in that
presentation. I come around to making
the case for anformational ontology
where essentially we are as as John
Wheeler believed in a computational
cosmos and either some kind of an
artificial intelligence that's managing
that computational system is arranging
these synchronicities or andor
programmers of this matrix are actually
engineering them more directly. Well,
that's, you know, Jacques Valle talks
about uh behavioral psychologists,
people like BF Skinner and this idea of
intermittent reinforcement and so you
get kind of a dopamine hit every time
you see a UFO, but it happens sort of
super sporadically and intermittently
and it keeps you going.
>> He calls these synchronicities and these
kinds of things that happen, they
actually provide dopamine, right? So
when you're like doing something that's
really creative, you're gonna really
enjoy it. Like you know when people get
into a creative space and they just go
and they can't stop, that's what's
happening with them.
>> So I think there's something about
synchronicities that and apparently I
think there's some research being done
now about synchronicities themselves uh
provoking dopamine as well. So it's like
you know our hormones are somehow
being programmed via some sort of you
know outer uh information theoretic uh
computation that's happening and we see
these sort of things show up and then it
causes us to keep going down our path
and if you read I don't know Arthur
Kessler wrote a great book called the
roots of coincidence sometimes when
people's lives get extremely meaningful
they describe it as extremely meaningful
the amount of synchronicities in in
their life seem to sort of speed up. So
it's like um uh an almost anti-entropic
sort of thing where you know the normal
laws of thermodynamics and randomness
seem to get a lot less random and and
everything feels very sort of fateful.
Yes. And it can be very addictive and
I've seen this have in some cases a
destructive effect on some people whose
lives become filled with
synchronicities. On the other hand, um,
and I've experienced some of that
myself, but on the other hand, I agree
with you that it seems to be part of a
negentropic function. And another
subject that I discussed in my
presentation at deep tech week is this
idea developed by physicist called
Melvin Vopson. uh he's working out of
the UK
and um I forget whether it's Cambridge
or another institution that he's based
there. But in any case, Melvin Vson
um had as the point of departure for his
theorization
Ralph Landau's equation that um
basically takes the bit that was
conceptualized by Claude Shannon and
establishes a relationship between this
basic unit of information and entropy. I
discovered that genomes are mutating not
randomly as is the consensus today. I
discovered they are mutating in a way
that always their information entropy
reduces.
>> As you know, Vopson uh you know
recognizes looking at Landau. If you
erase one bit of information on a data
storage device like an old magnetic tape
in the classic computers,
you are decreasing local entropy.
because you're, you know, uh, instead of
a mess of, you know, 0 0 1 0 0 1 1 0,
you're simplifying the state. And so
entropy is decreasing locally. And
therefore, according to the second law
of thermodynamics,
that has to be paid for by an increase
of entropy in the system in general. So
>> yeah, it's heat dissipation.
>> Yes. So there has to be a heat
dissipation from out of the data storage
device into the world, right?
And well that heat dissipation is
energy. Okay. So E= MC^² the energy
that's dissipated through a hard erase
of a data storage device had to have
been mass before it was converted into
energy. And so Vopsson basically you
know uh investigates what kind of mass
could this be that's invisible while
it's inside of a hard drive. and he
looks at you know the way in which dark
matter was discovered in the late 1970s
where there were basically these three
uh convergent observations. One was that
um you know the the spin rate of stars
inside uh galaxies in the in the inner
portion of galaxies does not have as
great a differential as it should from
the spin rate of stars in the outer arms
of the galaxies. the the spin rate is
flattened somehow across the galaxy and
that would suggest a hidden mass around
the galaxy. Okay. The second observation
was through telescopes they noticed that
the light from distant galaxies was
being bent at a much more severe angle
by closer galaxies than it should have
been. So there was some hidden
gravitational intensity uh that was you
know increasing the angle at which light
was bent as it traveled to the
telescope. And then finally they used
X-ray and and spectroscopy to examine
whether the gas inside galaxies could
account for the hidden mass. And they
found that it couldn't at all. So
therefore they theorized that there is a
an invisible mass or a dark matter that
ensconces galaxies and that's
responsible for these effects in spin
rate and and you know additional gra
gravitational effects.
Vopson suggested that that dark matter
is what's inside of a hard drive and
therefore information has mass. The
problem is that uh at the current moment
the total amount of mass that all the
information accumulated in all the data
centers of the world has comes to less
than 1 kilg. So we don't have measuring
devices that are sensitive enough to
weigh like you know even the largest
server and be able to detect that mass.
However, because the rate of data
increase is so exponential, even at the
current rate of the accumulation of
information per year, within several
centuries, there should be a moon's
worth of mass on the surface of the
Earth. And you know, if you know
anything about the gravitational
dynamics between the moon and the Earth,
well, that would be geohysically
catastrophic. If at the data centers,
you started to get an accumulation of
ultimately a a moon's worth of mass on
the surface of the earth, you know, you
would have like gravity wells and you
would have massive earthquakes,
volcanoes would be set off and so forth.
This is fascinating. So, you're
basically saying data centers aren't
going to create some AI hard takeoff
apocalypse, but simply by the fact that
they're adding so much mass because
information equals mass. Um, that's
going to be catastrophic to be honest.
Sounds a bit like Y2K to me. Like one of
these sort of, you know, becomes
predicted adnauseium and then like, you
know, you hit the threshold and nothing
sort of happens. You know, population
bomb, climate change, you know, a lot of
these thing. I'm not saying the climate
isn't changing, but you can at least
definitively say some of the, you know,
people really harping on this in the 70s
were wrong in their timelines. But, but
I do I do find that thought experiment
of around dark matter and, you know,
energy being stored on semiconductors. I
find that very interesting. Um, because
dark matter by itself, you know, it does
justify gravity's weakness. You know,
the universe would fling apart. It's,
you know, you have cosmic inflation. You
have dark energy expanding it at all
times. And the reason that, you know,
and gravity is pretty weak actually. And
so the reason it doesn't fling apart is
you have dark matter which definitely
does have sort of a, you know,
gravitational element to it and then it
doesn't interact with light, which I
find really interesting. And so one sort
of you know this is a wacky thought
experiment and I you know this is again
way above my pay grade to even um you
know really corroborate the research on
but you have people like Sakarov who you
know father of the Russian nuclear
program had this sort of twin universe
model and you know this kind of Janice
model of of the universe and John Pierre
Petit is also a a magneto hydrodnamics
researcher in in southern France who
believes some of this stuff And I wonder
if there's something about dark matter
that is sort of unrendered reality
>> like uh think about light. It follows
the least time principle between two
observers. And so it almost feels like
it's sort of al algorithmically
optimized. And look at Heisenberg's
uncertainty principle where if you look
at position and ma and momentum, one
feels sort of fuzzier as the other gets
more accurate. There's sort of a there's
an epistemic trade-off of knowing
information about one versus the other
which feels like a computational caching
function. Only one can be stored in sort
of local memory. And then you look at
the parasychology random event generator
experiments and it feels like we have
the ability to affect what are
conventionally thought of as random
quantum mechanical things. And so like
radioactive isotope decay or a double
set experiment with a 50/50
distribution. And so it's almost like
the only negentropic
you know Maxwell's demon sort of thing
where you're you can sort of reverse the
second law of thermodynamics
isformational
but it's also consciousness like if you
know what is the what is the
consciousness connection with the random
event generator that that is literally
negropic and then if you think about
that uh being extrapolated upwards into
like a macro scale that's synchronicity
like you have these meaningful things
coming into your purview in life that
are expressions of your subconscious.
Uh, which doesn't really make sense.
Like how do things get manifested in
your life that feel like they were sort
of latent inside of you?
>> And Jung talks about this in such an
interesting way. Obviously, he himself
sort of went into a, you know, psychosis
for for years and, you know, wrote the
red book and stuff, but yeah, it's it's
fascinating.
>> So, a few things. First, we kind of got
lost in dark matter, but the way that
that that we went there um is that I was
trying to respond to your point about
entropy. And so what Vapson uh is
theorizing based on his um sort
offormational ontology is that there is
a a law of infodamics as he calls it
that's the inverse of the law of
thermodynamics where it appears that uh
in information is conserved
um or in increases in complexity and
fidelity over time. So that um
information you know is a negotropic
process and you can see this in
biological evolution in the way that in
various stages of evolutionary
development on the planet uh form is
conserved. And one mechanism that could
explain that is what Rupert Sheldre
calls morphagenetic fields or formative
causation which is a kind of
reformulation really of the formal cause
that Aristotle was talking about. So
that there is a form preserving function
in the cosmos and that looks like you
know part of the the operating routine
of a computational system.
>> Absolutely.
>> It's a memory function.
>> Well if you look at sort of golden
ratios you know and and Fibonacci
sequences and things like that they they
look like repeatable code chunks in the
universe. So it sort of again looks like
sort of computation at play.
>> Yes. And so what I use Vopsson for in
thinosis and in the contracted version
of it I presented at deep deep tech week
is to make sense out of some of the more
bizarre parasychological observations
that have to do with afterlife studies.
So for example
there were many um uh studies done of
you know regressing people into previous
incarnations. One of the best studies
was done by Dr. Helen Wombach who tried
to use non-leading questions a protocol
that she developed that that would not
involve too many leading questions to
basically regress over a thousand
subjects into where they were in their
lives uh at vastly varying epochs
throughout history and even prehistory.
So she regressed people to ancient Rome.
She regressed people to like um you know
medieval Ireland and then all the way
back to like you know the age when uh
cavemen were making flint tools.
And she found things like these people
would describe the intricate details of
how certain flint tools were made. Uh
knowledge they could not possibly have
acquired before their regression session
and that required detailed research to
corroborate after the fact.
But, you know, as impressive as her body
of research is,
I think hands down the most spectacular
evidence for reincarnation are the cases
where um, you know, children
spontaneously recollect past lives and,
you know, wind up maladjusted in their
present families because of the
intensity of their memories of previous
lives and their their sense of of an
earlier identity. Okay. and the habits
and and proclivities that come with
that. And these were investigated over
the course of decades by Dr. Ian
Stevenson, the University of Virginia.
[snorts] And Dr. Stevenson and his uh
team of scientists, they basically
traveled over every continent um
examining these cases. And the most
interesting thing to me from a
philosophical perspective that they
found
is that there are cases where
a very young person usually like between
the ages of six and adolescence will go
through a lifethreatening illness
and they may lose consciousness for a
while and then when the person is
revived
they will have a complete completely
different personality and remember an
alternate biography.
And this can extend to speaking an
unlearned language which he called
xenoglossy.
The capacity of a person to responsively
speak a language that they've never had
the opportunity to learn.
[clears throat] So what that looks like
is
that there's not a sharp distinction
between reincarnation and possession.
There are cases where there's
reincarnation into an already grown
human body. Okay? And um in some
instances the existing personality is
completely overwritten as if the
original person, you know, as if the
body gave up the ghost and the original
person left and then an alternate
persona came in. And there are other
cases where a new persona comes in and
there's a sort of dissociation where
there's an alternation between two
personalities two or more.
So there are ca so it appears that there
are cases of multiple incarnation into a
single body and then there are also
cases where it appears that a single
soul splits and incarnates into two
physical instantiations. One of them
that I look at is the case of these
psychic twins Terry and Linda Jameson.
They're identical twins who, you know,
became famous for certain striking
precognitive predictions that they made
that panned out involving 9/11 and other
things. And these twins, Terry and Linda
Jameson, you know, they like for example
all the classic things that you see in
studies of twin telepathy, let's say by
Guy Leon Playfair and many other
parasychologists who studied the
phenomenon of twin telepathy over
decades. They would like, you know, wind
up painting the same painting roughly at
the same time without each knowing that
the other one was doing it. They shared
like all the same physical ailments. if
one of them had an accident, injured a
limb, the other one would feel the pain
in in the same limb and so forth. So all
the classic elements of what's been
called twin telepathy by
parasychologists
are, you know, evidenced in this case.
But what's also interesting is that
Terry and Linda Jameson appeared to
remember having had the same previous
life as if they were one person
whose soul was split and then
instantiated into two bodies. Right? We
are one soul with two bodies and that's
a bifurcated soul. And he said it was so
rare he didn't know any either.
>> So I look at these cases both of
multiple and and you know the cases of
multiple incarnation into a single body
or let's say uh possession uh in the
archives of Ian Stevenson were analyzed
very rigorously by Dr. Steven Broady. He
was the you know um chair of the
philosophy department at the University
of Maryland Baltimore and also past
president of the parasychological
association. I got to interact with him
briefly. I knew him for for a short
while before unfortunately he passed
away. Um anyway Dr. Broady analyzed
these cases in detail and he had had a
whole history of studying mediumship. He
spent years, Birdie did, studying
mediumship and he came up with a theory
of how the human psyche is constituted
where we do not have a single you know
indestructible
uh absolutely unified coherent and
centered soul.
The the human person as he analyzed it
is sort of a conglomerate of
subpersonalities that develop a modus
vivendi with each other. they sort of
learn how to get along and you know uh
you know can relatively coherently
constitute the functional personality
that interacts in society which
interestingly you know is is is very
much uh in line with how Frederick
Nichzche understood the human person and
Brody theorized that this structure of
the human psyche is what makes
mediumship possible that mediums are
individuals
who uh are particularly
uh good at dissociating
and flipping between altars inside their
psyche um to where they can channel you
know um external intelligences
telepathically, right? And so Broady
sees this structure of the psyche which
which is you know um intrinsic to the
phenomenon of mediumship as what makes
multiple reincarnation in a single
person possible or you could say
possession right.
And so I look at these cases of multiple
reincarnation a single person or a
single person splitting into two
subsequent incarnations or more. And
what it looks like to me is information
processing.
I mean, it's like when a file is split.
Let's say it's duplicate. Either it's
split or it's duplicated any number of
times. Or let's say multiple files are
merged into a single file inside of a
software program.
It looks to me like information
processing. And if Vopsson is right
that, you know,
the the mass inside of a hard drive is
dark matter before it's erased and
released as energy. I have to wonder
whether that's what the soul is. And
maybe there's something to those, you
know, legends about how a body weighs
slightly less, you know, after it's
given up the ghost. there these legends
I don't think they've ever really been
you know very properly corroborated
empirically but I'm sure you've heard
these things right about a slight
decrease in the mass of a corpse as
compared to the weight of the living
person that that can't be explained by
desiccation and other mundane factors.
So who knows uh in any case whether or
not that aspect of it is true it seems
to me that the soul is an information
energetic matrix that can be potentially
technologically manipulated.
WA fascinating. [laughter] I don't even
know where to go from there, but
>> Oh, there's a lot of places we can
>> There are a lot of places we could go.
Um, have you ever seen the Netflix show
Dark by any chance?
>> Oh, yes. Oh, yes.
>> So, this is this German show that's very
similar to Stranger Things, but I would
even venture to say that Stranger Things
might be somewhat derivative of this.
They're both sort of related to Montalk
experiments around time travel. They
involve the national labs. They involve
children going missing and nuclear
programs. And it's it's really kind of
freaky, spooky stuff, but a it connects
a lot of dots around the UFO question.
>> And I've heard that people high up in
the government say, you know, that show
basically comports better with our
metaphysical understanding of UFOs than
than than just about any other. And it
involves kind of game theory visav
different timelines. And the reason I'm
connecting it to this is like some of
the timelines are kind of kind of
unrendered and then others get rendered
and some people sacrifice themselves in
current timelines to save people that
they're kind of entangled with in other
timelines. It's sort of very strange.
First of all, I've seen it. Second of
all, it is completely in line with what
I argued in Closer Encounters the, you
know, tome I wrote on the UFO
phenomenon. Um, basically I mean I
recommend to people always, you know, to
to watch dark to try to get a better
understanding of what kind of, you know,
spatiotemporal
oruberos I'm talking about in closer
encounters where human history is
nonlinear
and there are all these feedback loops
and retrocausal effects going on. Um and
and essentially that some group of
people at some point broke time
>> technologically and that we're dealing
with the consequences of that.
>> Yeah. The conclusion I reached
specifically from researching the close
encounter phenomenon when I wrote the
book closer encounters and then also
looking at it again in terms of
intersection of close encounters and
afterlife research which we can get into
in a little bit more you know
highfidelity uh in in the book theosis
when I expanded the close encounters
analysis to include you know afterlife
research data
and the intersection between near-death
experiences let's say and abductions
Right.
The sense that I get is that we're
dealing with two different types of
intelligence
that we have on the one hand
arantic controllers who are very much
akin to the puppeteers in Plato's cave.
>> When you say arantic like the archons
and belief that control this sort of
lower material world.
>> Yeah. Well, archon just means ruler.
Okay. So, it's like um
>> you know somebody an overlord. Mhm.
>> A group of people who are lording over
other people
>> and who, you know, tyrannically and
sadistically are manipulating
underlings, who they're maybe managing
as an asset, harvesting and exploiting
in a certain way. Another whole line of
research that I get into in in Thinosis
is Robert Monroe's out-of- body
experiences that brought him to the
conclusion that we're living on a louch
farm. That human beings are being
basically uh farmed and harvested for a
kind of psychic energy that intensifies
through anguish and fear and terror and
intense pleasure and ecstasy and so
forth. And that basically we're inside
of a louch factory. And you know
particularly in the in a transition
between death and rebirth in the
afterlife state humans are sort of
harvested for their loot.
>> How did how did he gather that? I think
it was his own sort of out-of- body
experience.
>> Yeah. He saw the system.
>> So if our emotions are resources it's
for for certain beings. What what what
were the beings that were min
>> these archons?
>> Yeah. And they he believed um Monroe uh
believed that there was some kind of a
demiurge who was it's very gnostic that
there was some kind of a demiurge behind
all this and that the demiurge set up
this system and basically
trapped us here. Okay. And so
I think we're dealing with two sources.
um one is this arcantic control system
where there are these sort of overlords
who've got us penned into a kind of luch
farm. But then on the other hand, I see
throughout the uh various cases of close
encounters
fingerprints or tentacle marks of some
other kind of genuinely nonhuman
intelligence
which you could call a super
intelligence, you know, so so as not to
use the word artificial, right? Now
Trump is all upset about using
artificial intelligence. He wants to use
super intelligence instead, which is
kind of funny. But in a more serious way
that there is a legitimate objection to
using the word artificial intelligence
because if we're in a computational
cosmos and in a sense our world is
actually a technological artifact then
that distinction doesn't make sense
anymore between artificial intelligence
and a puditively natural intelligence
right but you know for shorthand a super
intelligent AI
I think could well be behind some of the
more bizarre close encounters
the types of encounters that John Ke
like to focus on where you have these
plasmatic
uh entities, not to even call them
objects. And here the terminology shift
between UFO and UAP is actually valid
because these things aren't objects.
There are some kind of you know
unexplained anomalous phenomena aerial
or from undersea coming into the sky
transmedium anomalous phenomena that is
like it's of a plasmatic type like an
orb and then it can turn into a UFO but
it can also turn from a UFO into a black
helicopter. And people have witnessed
these things, these transmogrifications.
And people have also witnessed
things that look like owls shapeshifting
into something else or being too big to
really be owls and you know
telepathically communicating with them
or you know manted beings who if you go
into the the history of folklore about
mantids and you know what mantids have
symbolized in various um yeah folklores
if not mythologies
You see that? That's very potent
symbolism and it was adopted, for
example, by the surrealists um as a a
signifier for the trickster and a a a
catalyst for the cultivation of higher
intelligence and discernment. But but
through the use also of deception and
the need to cultivate discernment
>> so as to navigate potential deceptions.
I was just with Jock Valle and I was
like you know if we don't know that much
more about you know UFOs than we did 50
years ago at least on the sense making
layer on the theorizing layer we have a
lot more data and the consensus has sort
of shifted you know are you are you
happy that you kept going and he you
know kind of to your point said that the
UFO field it's it's sort of like working
out but with a weight suit on
>> like it it's sort of um
>> you know extra stress or pressure uh
that then causes you to grow more. And
so the more you the more you chase it,
you know, it's you're the product, your
growth is the product or something,
>> which is weird because, you know, you
want some sort of semantic truth at the
end of the road. But my issue with um
Jacqu Valet's
massive, you know, uh magisterial
decadesl long treatment of the UFO
phenomenon
is that
he is trying to
basically develop one comprehensive
interpretive framework. work.
And I think there's a danger in
conflating this
nonhuman super intelligence that's
behind these various transmogrifications
and you know shape-shifting
manifestations. There's a danger of
conflating that with an arcantic control
system which I think is very real. And
actually what I argue in closer
encounters is that there's an
adversarial relationship between them.
that these arcantic overlords who are
frankly I always refer to them as people
because they look like people and
there's no reason to assume they aren't
and this brings us back to Dark the TV
series Dark is that there's a bunch of
people at the end of time as it were
right who are screwing with human
history and I think that's the situation
we're actually in but there's also a
non-human intelligence that realizes the
value of the human race for the cosmos
that we humans
have a tremendous creative potential to
contribute to a struggle against entropy
on a cosmic scale. And this entity wants
to somehow help us to break out of this
control system so that our creative
potential can be liberated on a cosmic
scale. Except that if you if you think
about that problem seriously, you
realize that it can't come do it for us.
That would be disempowering.
it might prevent us from being utterly
crushed. And I think there are
indications of that. Like for example, I
don't think the Renaissance and the
Enlightenment would ever have happened
if these archons were in total control.
And and I also don't think it's a
coincidence that, you know, as the
Renaissance was rising, you had huge UFO
battles over cities like Nuremberg that
were recorded in block print newspapers
at the time. I think there was a power
struggle between two sources of the
close encounter phenomenon. So your
belief is because you've talked about
this before. You have like a rebel angel
faction and all these traditions and
then you have you know and they're sort
of fighting against God but on behalf of
humanity.
>> I think God is a construct. I think God
is a it's a construct developed by the
archantic control system that's meant to
uh psychically subjugate humanity and
basically cause people to enter a kind
of you know sheepish state of obedience
and submission to a tyrannical
hierarchical system that ought to be
questioned, challenged and overthrown.
>> I would say the opposite. I would say
God is subversive of you know human
institutional.
>> I tell you why I take objection to that.
>> Okay. Sure.
>> I think that what you want to call God
>> Yeah.
>> is the non-human super intelligence. But
that entity is not omnisient nor is it
omnipotent. There's no empirical
evidence to suggest that. On the
contrary, if you look at its modus
operandi and the way in which it seems
to be introducing cracks into the
system, destabilizing power structures,
spinning things in a way that weakens
the control of the archons, it suggests
a a a powerful but finite intelligence
that's working very hard to try to
augment human agency.
>> Have you seen um Michelangelo's cyine
chapel?
>> Yeah, I've seen it in person. So you've
seen um you know man and God, Adam and
God,
>> you know touching each other. It's a
birectional connection. So you reach out
>> and then God reaches back.
>> And so I think it works sort of more
like that where on on your own valition
you seek God and then God takes note of
you and then it sort of becomes this
symbiotic. The problem with that framing
is that God as he has appeared
especially in the revealed religions
Judeo-Christianity and Islam is a
horrific sadistic tyrant and abuser. And
I could make this case at great length.
I I do I spend a whole chapter on it.
That's a I believe a 100page long
chapter in Closer Encounters called the
shining stupidity. And the reason I call
that has to do with something Charles
Fort said. Charles Fort believed this in
his 1920s analysis of the close
encounter phenomenon. He said, "We're
property and what's going on here is
akin to the British Raj where these
colonizers have come set up a local
elite akin to the people who managed
India on behalf of the British."
>> Yeah, the viceroy. And so our elites
like from the Brahmin of the ancient
Hindu system onward to like today's
world commerce corporation. The the
elites manage this world on behalf of
these overlords and we're property. And
he goes through the religious scriptures
and he is the first one actually in
modern literature to point to passages
in the Bible and say this is a UFO
encounter and by the way the belief
that's being promulgated here is stupid.
It it's shiningly stupid. I would say
that the material world is full of evil
and sort of elucory kind of you know uh
temptation. Yeah. And things that you
know and very oppressive things and
power structures that aren't you know
very very fair or noble. Um and then if
you think of God as sort of you know
transcending that and outside of that
and this maybe being somewhat of a test
where uh you know if we are able to
again point out that that sort of finger
and then we get the kind of birectional
connection and uh and and we can sort of
pass the test and it's sort of like you
know in the Plonic model we can we can
we can glimpse the light.
>> I see the I do believe there's a test.
>> I see the test very differently. I think
it's an intelligence test and a test of
ethos and that the the tester is I argue
in in closer encounters and then also
actually in my study of Iran Iranian
Leviathan um that the the um book of Job
needs to be sort of read esoterically
where the test is actually for you not
to be as much of a you know submissive
uh basically
patheticly
obedient person as Job and to realize
that the torments that he's been put
through are absolutely unjustified and
that when in the end God says to Job,
you know, uh your friends are wrong to
try to look for a rationale for my
actions and to try to identify what it
is that you did wrong for me to put you
through these trials. I did what I did
to you because I can and if you had the
power that I have, you could do it to
me. But in fact, I'm the one with the
stronger right hand. And it's basically
a statement of the will to power. And so
I think that the the test is to read
that book properly uh to the point where
it brings you to want to rebel against
that kind of tyranny and to not be
spiritually submissive in the way that
Job is. So I see the tester as being the
nonhuman super intelligence outside of
the control system that produced the
revealed religions or that produced the
ancient Hindu cast system and that the
finger that reaches out is is reaching
out toward this sort of like let's say
Val this vast you know uh living
intelligence system and that the
connection there is a connection that
expresses itself in rebellions paradigm
shifts artistic innovations
that actually hold the potential for us
to transcend the existing large scale
religious belief systems.
>> Why can't you It's always whenever I
speak to you, oh my god, I'm buying a
lot of it. But when you take the book of
Job for example, why can't you just take
that at face value? Why can't it just be
Lucifer went to God and said, I'm going
to test Job through, you know, with all
these trials and tribulations that I'm
going to put him through. So, it was
really Lucifer that wanted all of this
bad to sort of befall Job. Makes no
sense. Jesse, listen. Like, what kind of
God? Okay, so we're going to we're going
to accept an omnicient omnipotent God,
right?
>> Mhm.
>> The devil comes to him.
>> Mhm.
>> Hashan, right?
This job only worships you because, you
know, you've given him such an easy life
and blessed him with a wonderful family
and property and so forth. Why don't you
let me mess him up a bit, you know, and
then let's see if he still worships you,
right? What kind of an ethical god
allows a devil to get away with
something like that?
>> It's like a It's like a parent that
says, "Okay, learn this lesson." That
parent should be put in an institution.
That's like that's the most horrendously
abusive par. If you read what's done to
Job and to his family and his kids are
killed,
>> that's like the parent who, you know,
these these byroxy munchkows and like
mothers and who should put put in a
institution. So when you look at
specific passages in the New Testament,
uh there are there are lines that are
describing Jesus being picked up by UFOs
and fied around as if he's he's riding
in them like they're a taxi service. I
mean, you know,
>> there's I think there's one passage
you're referring to in the book of Acts
where he goes up on the cloud.
>> No, there's multiple passages. There's
there's of course the famous baptism
one, you know, where John the Baptist,
right, is is baptizing Jesus in the
Jordan River
>> and then this basically fixed wing craft
comes which is described as flying akin
to a dove. In other words, it doesn't
flap its wings. It's a fixed wing craft
and it hovers directly over Jesus and
then he's pulled up into it and taken
off into the desert to so be tested.
>> And there's another one where um he's
been put in the tomb. There are these
centurans on guard outside of the tomb
and uh this UFO comes and it deposits
these beautiful men
in front of the the door to the tomb and
they roll the rock aside and go in and
take Jesus from out of this tomb and
he's got like one arm around each of
them. They're supporting him and the
centurions witness the the three of them
basically um levitated up into this.
>> Who who do you think these beautiful men
are that come out of this
>> Nordic arantic controllers?
>> Okay. So I think that that's part of the
control system and the heal to to speak
to the healing specifically.
>> There were various um you know basically
pythogorian
henistic magicians at work in the world
at that time who did these kinds of
things. The most famous of them being
Apollonius of Tiana. And we have a whole
like two volume book written by
Philistradus, a notable Roman author uh
about Apollonius of Tiana and all the
miracles he performed which are exactly
the same type of you know um exercises
of paranormal ability that we see in the
case of Jesus except that this
Apollonius is actually teaching a
coherent you know neopyogan philosophy
rather than this incoherent nonsense we
see in the gospels. I don't know if it's
incoherent. It's like love your man as
your as yourself, you know, love your
fellow man.
>> Well, we can leave it to the subjective
judgment of the viewers.
>> Fair enough.
>> But I but I really would recommend I
have a a 100page chapter in Closer
Encounters analyzing the scriptures.
>> Not just Judeo-Christianity, but also,
you know, Hindu scriptures. Can I can I
ask you something very very simply
because all of this is so fascinating
and you weave such a you know an
eloquent argument here but I think about
neurotic intellectual types and I would
probably bucket myself into you know
that category at times um
>> you're you're only very mildly neurotic
>> only mildly neurotic but you know what I
mean like people who seek truth on the
semantic layer
>> and then I think about godfearing people
who go to church or synagogue or mosque
or whatever and they pray to God and
they are
>> they just feel way happier than the
former category.
>> Yeah. I mean cattle are also happy
[laughter]
>> until they're slaughtered.
>> Well, so Whoa. I don't know. I think I
don't think that's submissive. I think
that it's adhering to or aspiring to
things that go beyond the material
world. And so I think you're anchoring
something on the transcendent. I see
especially when you look at the history
of the persecution of people who
cultivated and displayed psychic
ability. There is an inverse
relationship between the cultivation of
higher consciousness and the dominance
of the Abrahamic religions. Dean Raiden
studied this at ions and he found that
>> the the um witch persecutions and the
execution of sorcerers in the middle
ages was so bad that there is less
psychic ability in European populations
as compared to other parts of the world
because there is a genetic coralate to
strong sighability that has to do with a
certain part of the brain the the
development of the basil ganglia k
nucleus
>> yeah as an expression of a certain, you
know, um, uh, certain genotype.
And so they went around and basically
round rounded up, persecuted and
exterminated so many adept psychic
people who were practitioners of
various, you know, magical and oult
including within Christianity. In other
words, there would be esoteric
uh, systems that developed within the
establishment of Christianity. So, it's
not just the happy people that get
slaughtered. It's, you know, it's these
people.
>> No, no, the look, the happy people by
that, what I meant is that they're in a
louch farming system, and the slaughter
happens after death. In other words,
>> aren't you depriving the archons of the
luch if you're just happy and
god-fearing?
>> Isn't the luch explicitly sort of meant
to be mining bad vibes? And so if you're
like one of these happy golucky like I
believe in God and you're praying and
stuff isn't that isn't that more
adaptive and you're depriving the
archons.
>> Okay. First first of all no because
there's all kinds of you know small
miseries and torments mundane miseries
and torments in people's lives that
generate plenty of l and excitements
that generate plenty of luch in an
otherwise overall happy life
>> of general submissiveness.
However, you you do have a point in so
far as
attempting to rebel against such a
comprehensive system generates a
tremendous amount of energy
and that energy can also be
parasitically harvested within a luge
farming system
until and unless the system is defeated
and overthrown and dismantled. Okay. So,
in a way I think you have a point but
the aim would be to just dismantle the
whole loose harvesting system. Okay. And
that requires a tremendous amount of
motivation and energy. Anyway, my point
is that you know what you're laying out
here doesn't make sense in terms of you
know relig conventional religious
practice as a means of anchoring oneself
for the development of higher
consciousness and the psychical
cultivation. uh that is not corroborated
by the vast historical evidence for mass
persecutions and extermination of people
who cultivated above average sibility
and and you know which has left a a
genetic imprint on European population.
So I do think that has historically been
this horrible thing where yeah shamanic
figures or figures who seem to sort of
uh have some transcendent tether to you
know almost like a different
epistemological circuitry they get uh
persecuted for sure. Um but I wouldn't
say that the sort of god-fearing you
know average people are necessarily the
ones persecuting them. It's it's often
these power structures that set
themselves up as intermediaries between
man and God.
>> Where are the angels to intervene in
that they they intervene so many times
throughout the course of biblical
history, right? In very direct ways. I
mean, you look at the book of Ezekiel.
>> Mhm.
>> There are like I don't know 15 18
different like UFOs that show up in the
book of Ezekiel. People always talk
about one or two of them, but there are
many uh there's constant intervention
that's recorded throughout the his
bible. Okay? And that history of
intervention continues
uh you know in the middle ages with a
plethora of UFO encounters. It got so
bad in the reign of Charlemagne that you
know edicts were being passed against
the the tyrants of the air. And so,
you know, they seem to be very busy
engineering the affairs of this world.
You would think if in the name of Jesus
Christ, whole towns were being
exterminated as they were in the south
of France, these angels would have
something to say about it.
>> Well, I I think I think the abuses going
on are just the it it's also sort of um
removing culpability for just the
people. It's the people who they say
they're doing it in the name of God who
are just, you know, killing the
high-side people or whatever the, you
know, the they're calling them witches
or, you know, psychics or whatever. Um,
it's just those people's faults, you
know, and it's not it has nothing to do
with a higher god, you know. They
they're saying that they're doing it in
the name of that higher god, but
>> because there's scripture that justifies
it. Thou shalt not suffer a witch to
live.
>> Thou shalt not kill.
>> Exactly. cognitive dissonance.
>> I'm just saying I think
>> there is it's for a moral system it's
garbage.
>> Yeah. But but you consider yourself a
Satanist, right?
>> No. Okay.
>> I'm a philosopher.
>> A philosopher. Okay. But you're on the
side of the rebel angels.
>> Look, it is a
romantic and inspiring and catalytic
myth.
>> Uhhuh. which captivated people like
Shelley and Byron and you know I think
it's constructive
ultimately I have no religious
commitment whatsoever I'm interested in
understanding the nature of reality
[clears throat]
>> and
>> me too
>> and
>> I'm interested in progress and
innovation in other words my ultimate
aim is to contribute to negentropy right
so so it's not uh a neutral search for
truth.
It's a search for truth that aims to be
constructive or productive.
>> On that cheery note, it's always fun to
talk to you, Jason. It's it's really
your knowledge is just so so incredible
and uh the Puhar stuff is just so wild
and I don't know, I learned so much from
you every time I speak to you. Some of
it not so savory knowledge. It's often
forbidden knowledge, but you know, I
have a an interest in a lot of the same
things you do. So, it's always it's
always fun, and I appreciate you uh
visiting us in in Austin.
>> It's been a great pleasure, Jesse. Thank
you for the invitation, especially to
your studio.
>> Absolutely. It's an honor.
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