I want to talk about decision-m there's
a line from Alex Hormosi that says the
life that you want is on the other side
of a few hard decisions and the reason
that you're unhappy is because you're
not making them. In your experience, how
important is the skill of decision-m and
guiding someone's life? It's everything.
Like if you look at
let's say like the one of the things I
talk about when I'm working with
leaders who are like growing
billion-dollar companies is that your
business is only two things. It's the
relationships that are held in the
business and the decisions that you
make. Everything else can it goes to
those two things. There's some capital
you know there's potentially some IP but
those came from decisions that people
made. So it is for a business it's the
critical thing. And if you look at um I
think it was um founder of Amazon Jeff
Bezos who said
uh for my next company I want it to be
the best decision-making company in the
world. So a after somebody grew the
biggest company in the world he then
said my next company is going to be just
really great at making decisions. That's
how important it is for a company. But
if you look at your life, well, what
doesn't happen from a decision, right?
Like if you're smoking cigarettes, if
you are building a company, if you are
getting married, who you're getting
married to, how you stay married, how
you fight, all these things are
decisions that we make for for I think
for the framework purposes. I think it's
really important to separate
what and this is this is the way I think
about it. So it's is there's choices and
there's decisions. So choices are just
the things that you don't think about
like right now you're sitting like this
you never thought about it you just
right and
>> or the first question maybe you thought
this is a great first question maybe
you're like is that the right first
question or is that the other is that
the right first question
>> if you are just making choices it means
that you're not sitting there really
spending time on it and so that I call
that a choice and decisions is where
you're really making spending time on it
so knowing how to make great choices and
great decisions is all of life like
everything that you're going to end when
you're at your grave. It's going to be a
series of decisions that you made.
>> So, I'd say super hyper critical. And if
you can learn how to make great
decisions, then you're going to make
decisions that are going to make a great
life.
>> Can you train decisiveness or is it
largely a personality trait?
>> You can absolutely train decisiveness. I
don't think it's a training, but it's a
a recognition. there's some recognitions
that can happen that allow for
decisiveness.
>> So once you really understand what's
happening behind decision- making, then
you can then decisiveness starts to flow
from that. Like why why is it hard for
people to make decisions? Why are some
decisions hard to make?
>> Why are some choices like I'm going to
go to the grocery store. I took a left
here. I'm calling my friend. Why we
don't even think about those and why
some are really difficult to make. And
when you get that, when you understand
that, then decisiveness becomes like
there be less and less decisions, more
and more choices, and the choice and the
and the result is better and better. It
feels to me like system one, system two
thinking a bit from Daniel Carnean,
thinking fast and slow. So the system
two is very deliberate and you sort of
have to pay a lot of cognitive attention
to it and then over time you train
system two into system one and the sort
of carefully thought decision becomes
the the default. What
types of people
>> tend to struggle with decisions the
most? What's the avatar of the sorts of
people who tend to be the most
indecisive
that have the toughest time when it
comes to
>> Well, I'll give you like what humans
what most people in society would call
them and then I'll tell you like the
thing that's underneath, right? So, it's
going to be people who are
perfectionists, people who have been
criticized a lot as children, people who
um who were told that their value wasn't
getting it right and it's really
important for them to get it right. And
people who are like have a tendency to
be scared of consequences,
>> those are the people that are going to
have a hard time making decisions that
they're going to be long prolonged SWAT
analysis,
you know, thinking thinking thinking,
still thinking about it 6 months later.
Should I marry them? Should I not marry
them? That's that's going to be what's
behind it for them.
>> How much is decision-m an emotional
problem and how much is it anformational
problem? 100% an emotional problem.
[laughter]
So, so that's not that's not me. That is
that is uh neurology. So, if you read a
book uh called Dartzair
2020 2012
um
he wrote that the emotional center of
the brain is what makes decisions. So
there are people who have had the
emotional center of their brain damaged
and they cease to be able to make
decisions. Their whole their IQ stays
the same but their whole life falls
apart because
well what color pen should I use and 15
minutes later they're still trying to
figure out what color pen or where am I
going to have lunch.
>> Right? So there is just to be because
there's some neuroscientist in in the
audience who's going to be who's going
to quibble with me. So, I'm going to
There is a place where the emotional
center of the brain doesn't make the
decision, like if a snake comes at you
and you jump away, then it bypasses
that. But if you're trying to decide who
to hire, if you're trying to decide what
investment to make, no matter what your
spreadsheet says, you're making a
decision to feel a certain way. So, if
you think about your life and you say,
"How many decisions did I make to feel
loved, to feel like, to feel valuable?
How many decisions did I make to not
feel like a failure, to not feel like a
loser, to not feel dismissed, to not
feel rejected? Right there is guaranteed
90% of your life. So that is actually
how we make decisions neurologically
speaking. That's how So the idea that
you're going to make a logical decision
is absolute crap. It like it it's a
great idea and it's a and it's a great
way to like justify emotional
repression, but it's not true
>> neurologically. So that's why I say it's
100% an emotional decision. Where logic
comes in is logic says
I'm going to logically try to figure out
how I'm going to feel if I make this
decision or how I'm going to feel if I
make this other decision.
>> So
you a SWAT analysis of like where you
should take your business, where you
should invest a million dollars. And if
I said to you and let's say your your
number one motus apparandi was like was
happiness and I said hey I guarantee and
you believe me you'd be happier if you
did this and you had that knowledge
there's the swan analysis goes away
doesn't matter maybe your thing is like
a meaning like this will give you the
most meaning okay I'm going to do that
thing but whatever that thing is you're
going to do it and all the logic is
doing is trying to figure out how you're
going to get to the emotional state.
>> And so that's that's just the
neurological reality of it. And it and
it gives us the biggest clue on how to
make great decisions.
If you are scared to feel a certain
thing, then a certain solution set in
your decision-m is not available to you.
>> Why?
>> If I'm scared to be a loser, I'm not
going to be able to take the same kind
of risk. So you and I know the guy at
the bar who doesn't mind getting
rejected, doesn't mind that feeling of
rejection.
They'll go and hit on 10 women and they
will have options that the person who's
scared of rejection. I don't want to
feel that. And then I make a choice
because I don't want to get rejected to
not hit on those women. I have no
choice.
>> It's and it's that in everything. I'm
scared that my boss will yell at me and
I will have to feel like a dweeb. I
don't want to feel like a dweeb. So, I'm
not going to say the thing to my boss
and therefore that option is off the
table.
So, that that's that's really what's
going on behind decision-m. So, if you
can get to, oh, I love and this is going
to sound weird to everybody, but like I
I don't mind feeling rejected like that
guy like I'm good with that. Even like I
look forward to feeling rejected. I know
that I'm winning if I have tried enough
times, right? just like a hurdler who's
like, I know if I practice enough, if I
do enough reps, doesn't matter how many
times I fail, I'm winning. Or if I say,
oh, I I'm okay feeling like a dweeb. I'm
okay embarrassing myself. I'm okay not
looking good for a moment. Then I can
make really clear decisions because then
I'm making decisions based on my
principles, based on what's most
important to me, not based on a fear of
of a consequence.
>> Yeah. the
your value or your option set gets
constrained
a lot if you're not prepared to face a a
ton of emotions. James, business partner
in Newtonic, used to work doortodoor
selling like gas for NP power, which is
like a a utility company in the UK and
he needed, I think, two more sales
before the end of the week in order to
hit his target and not lose his job and
he was getting all stressed about it and
he spoke to his the team leader and the
team leader said, "What's your sales
rate? Like, how many doors do you need
to knock on to get a sale?"
>> Yeah.
>> He said, "At the moment, it's one in
50." He says, "Okay, so if you do 100
doors, you've hit your target. You just
need to be rejected 98 times. If you're
rejected 98 times, you've hit your
target."
>> Yeah.
>> I always think about that frame.
>> Yeah. I So I have it I have an even
better I had a a barber
still is my barber, but he doesn't give
haircuts to very many people anymore.
And the reason is is because we were
sitting and I was looking at his
paintings and I'm like, "Wow, man,
you've got some amazing paintings." He's
like, "Yeah." I'm like, "Well, are you
in any galleries?" He's like, "No. And I
was talking to him and I saw that fear
of rejection. I said, "Hey, I'll tell
you what I'll do. I'll give you I think
it was$1 or $2,000. I'll give you $2,000
if you can get 50 rejections in the next
60 days."
>> $2,000 if you can get 50 rejections
>> in the next 60 days.
>> Okay.
>> He couldn't get 60 rejections. He got
two acceptances. And so now he's making
a living selling his art.
>> That's
>> But the reframe was, you're not failing,
you're winning.
>> Yes. Yes. Right. So that's a hack. But
the the the the deeper truth, right?
>> So manipulative.
>> It [laughter] was totally wasipulative.
Yeah. It totally was. And for his own
good and and and his art deserves to be
out there. And but that's the the thing
is like he wasn't scared of making
$2,000.
He was scared of the feeling of failure.
>> It's a great frame. How do you come to
think about decision-m then what are the
component skills?
>> Yeah. So, so the other thing to
understand is like in that before I can
go into that the the the
decision like back to decisions and
choices. So choices are often done
because we have subconscious
emotions that we don't want to feel and
never gets into consciousness. Right?
Like, so I'm going to smoke the
cigarette so I don't have to feel the
thing or I'm going to scroll so I don't
have to feel the thing or I'm going to
tell my wife I love her because that
lets me feel the thing. Right? So that's
one set of like how do you how do you
make good choices? How do you make great
decisions? The thing to understand I
noticed the thing that like unlocked
this for me around uh making decisions
was that every time I was making a
decision I was in fear. So
if you are in fear, your brain does
certain things. One of the things your
brain does is it um goes black and white
thinking like you become very binary.
Should I take the job? Should I not take
the job? Should I break up with the
girl? Should I not break up with the
girl? [gasps]
It doesn't say, "Oh, I could talk to the
girl and say, "This is what I need if
we're going to stay together." It
doesn't say I could buy the car or I
could lease the car or I could buy the
car that's a different color or
whatever. So it doesn't see all the
possibilities. It it it narrows things
down into black and white thinking. The
other thing that it fear does in the
brain is that it creates a false end
like okay so you make a bad decision so
what like you get to make another one
tomorrow and you get to make another one
after that. Amazon is another another
great example of Amazon. Make decisions
fast if you can if you can pull them
back. If you have if you can't then okay
take a minute make your decision.
>> Reversible decision.
>> Yeah. Exactly. So so that's another one
uh that that fear does to the brain. And
so so that false end is like you don't
see through the end like what's
happening afterwards. And so that's why
most people think of decisions as like
what do I do about this decision? They
don't think about decisions as a
portfolio the way somebody who's running
a hedge fund or in your stock account if
you have one you're saying I don't need
to get everything right. I just need to
be principled about what I buy because a
majority of them will work out. And so
people are thinking this decision right
now is really important instead of the
portfolio of decisions that I'm going to
make this year,
>> final decision I will ever make.
>> Right. Exactly. So, so and so that's how
we know that we're in fear. Now, there's
the the rare occasion where someone's
like, I'm just going to really think
through this and I'm okay. I've thought
about it. I've collected data. This is
what I'm going to do. Right? That's
pretty rare. So, most of the people who
are like, oh my god, I got to make a
decision. What am I going to do? It
means there's just a tremendous amount
of fear that's going on under the
surface. [gasps] And so one of the
things to learn is that
the fear is of a consequence. And if you
go and you feel that consequence, you're
going to make a better decision. So I'll
give you an example of this. My wife and
I have been married now 27 years. We've
been married a long time, but I I've
been married to
three or four different women all with
her name, right? She's been very she was
very different at 27 than she was at 37
than she was at 47. And and so there's
been these moments in our life where
the the the marriage is rough, like like
what what are we doing? And I'm scared
to lose her. So I'm I'm trying to make
decisions to keep her, but I'm
abandoning myself by doing that. I'm
abandoning my principles. So both of us
have come up with this this method where
we basically just mourn the marriage
because what I'm scared of is I'm going
to lose her. So I'm I'm just going to
assume I've lost her. I'm going to feel
all that stuff. And then in feeling all
that stuff, I'm not scared of it
anymore.
And then my response is, okay, this is
who I am and I'm going to show up like
that. And she shows up as who she is.
And then we work out like how are we
going to be together? Do we want to be
together? What's going to actually go
on? But that fear isn't there. And this
is like an age-old
process. So whether you are a stoic or a
samurai or Tibetan book of living or
dying, the way to overcome the fear of
death is to actually visualize and feel
the experience of death over and over in
slow motion again and again. And then
that's
>> they includes like watching your own
body decay and stuff. It's like even
after you're dead, you're thinking about
it
>> because because you're going past the
false end.
>> Oh, right.
>> That's why it's critical.
>> Interesting. Right. It's the same thing
if you're going to if you're going to
like mourn your marriage, you go don't
go to the moment of divorce. You go to
like and then I'm lonely after and I
can't find a woman and then you know,
you do the whole thing
>> and then and then
>> and then and then and then and then I
have a marriage again or then I'm you
know, whatever it is. So,
so overcoming your fear that way is a
really critical thing because if you're
having a hard time making a decision,
it's not because you don't know what to
do. Typically, it's because you're
scared of a consequence and the
consequence you're scared of is an
emotional consequence.
>> Correct.
>> That is the episode. Like that's the
that that's really lovely. That's a
great a great summary.
>> Why is it fear? Why is that the emotion?
I understand that there's this sort of
absolutist thinking. Uh I understand
that creates a a a type of constraint
which will cause panic. I also
understand that if there's a kind of
finality to things because you don't
think that the life is going to continue
beyond this decision and if you choose
especially if you choose the wrong one
or not
>> um
>> but why fear like why why is that the
case why is that the emotion default
>> yeah this is a great question because
the fear is because the identity is
going to get messed with right so like
who do I think I am I think that I am a
very successful person it's important
for me to be a successful person so
taking this job is really important the
things that are really important to us
are the things that define us and our
identity. And so that's going to be a
that's going to be where we're really
important. And in some way, every time
we're making a decision and we are in
that fear-based decision-m process, it
teaches us exactly where we're not
principled in being ourselves.
>> And so that's actually the antidote. So
for instance, I have a set of principles
that I make 80% of my decisions by. And
I make them that way the same way that
like um Berkshire Hathaway says this is
what we invest in that it's not
guesswork. It's like these things have
to be true for us to invest.
>> And I think right now they're sitting on
like $230 billion because nothing is
true enough to invest in. They're like
it doesn't hit what we invest in. So
we're just holding cash, right? And
that was the case maybe like three
months ago. I don't know where they are
today. And um and so it's the same thing
if I'll make a decision based on a set
of principles
of who I want to be in the world. And if
I'm thinking about those principles, the
way I think about the principles are
if I have five, seven principles, do
they
do they get me where I want to go 80% of
the time? Do they almost guarantee
success over time? Not a single success,
but over time. M
>> and do they solve 80% of my problems?
>> Can you give me an example of a
principle? It doesn't necessarily need
to be one of yours.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Um I'll give
you a decision-m principle we have our
business, which is whenever we're
building something new, we go to the
thing we know the least amount about and
we build it first.
>> Give me an example. So, if I'm going to
build a car and I know how to build a
car, but I don't know how to build a
catalytic converter, most people will
build the car, then build the catalytic
converter, and then go, "Oh [ __ ] the
catalytic converter doesn't work inside
this car. I'm going to have to rebuild
part of the car." I'll say, "Let's build
the catalytic converter first,
and now I'll build the car around it
because it's going to be a more
efficient process."
>> Why?
>> Why is it a more efficient process?
>> Why? Why do the hard thing first?
because then I don't have to redo the
car
>> because I don't have to like
>> how does that make how does that help
with the decision? Like I suppose that's
a principle. But in what way does that
make the decision more likely to be
successful?
>> Right. So if we're Yeah. So the so uh
the decision that if we're in the
decision of we're going to build out a
podcast for the first time,
>> we're going to be more successful
because we went to the thing we don't
know and we've solved that first rather
than do all the things we know and solve
that later.
>> Okay. Uh can you give me an example
that's uh something from a personal life
not a business life?
>> Oh yeah. Yeah. So my I have a personal
>> I have a personal this is actually the
perfect one. I have a personal uh
principle. So everything is an
iteration.
So what that means is the same thing
that I was teaching to the barber which
is failure isn't a thing. There's just I
run experiments and I learn and then I
keep on running experiments and I keep
on learning and I keep on running
experiments and then I learn. If I do
that instead of thinking I fail or I
succeed,
I'm just like constantly learning, then
I ultimately always succeed
because I'm just running iterations
until I figure the thing out. And
there's a lot of neurology on this.
There's there's something called the
habenula and and it basically prevents
us from failing inside of our brain.
>> And it's basically the part of our brain
that's in all invertebraes. I'm loosely
speaking here that if a bear goes and
fights for mating rights and they lose,
it stops them from going, I'm going to
go fight for mating rights again right
now. Right? Like it it's it's the same
thing in our brain that it's like when
you're on a diet and you're like, I'm
going to be on this specific diet for a
while and you're like great for like 2
weeks and then you eat that one piece of
chocolate cake or whatever and then
you're like, [ __ ] the diet and you're
completely off. But you just ate one
chocolate cake like so what? You just
get back on the diet. We don't
>> because that part of our brain is like
we can't fail again. In my world, it's
everything is an iteration.
>> So what's the experiment I'm going to
try? What's the next experiment I'm
going to try? What's the next experiment
I'm going to try? And they did this
study with uh people who were I think it
was like at the poverty line who lost
weight successfully and all of them or
not all of them but a grand percentage
of them all were doing iterative
mindset. They were all saying, "I'm just
running a series of experiments until I
find something that works." So for me,
everything is an iteration. Everything
is I'm trying. So we run we we do this
in our business, but I do this in life.
>> So I do something, it goes horribly
wrong. I'm like, great, that was an
iteration. What's the next iteration? Or
I'm like, I have a big decision to make.
I'm like, ah, well, just what's the
simple iteration? I'm going to do that.
>> Yeah. you've been, at least in your
business, uh, impressively prepared to
put stock in [ __ ] that I've told you to
do.
>> Oh, yeah.
>> And I'm like, huh, you listen to me. And
he not just listen to me, not just give
me lip service or do the thing, say that
he wants to do the thing and genuinely
want to do the thing and then encounter
some practical fear or some emotional
barrier. Like I've said, hey, I think
you should do this. I think we might
have even talked about it last time on
the podcast. you doing I wanted you to
do basically the uh master coach
critiques breakdowns emotionally of
these things and these videos are
ripping and you guys are doing like the
you you [ __ ] it on a few of the early
ones
>> and had a couple of winners on the early
ones and then changed it and changed it
and now it's like
>> it's [ __ ] awesome it's really good
>> yeah and that's and so that's what
that's exactly it and so that's the way
it is with everybody in the company
anybody wants to try and experiment as
long as it's like within brand go
>> as a matter of fact we actually have a
criteria. Everybody who works for us has
to run depending on where they are three
to five experiments on how to do their
job differently every quarter.
>> Wow.
>> So that's that's how deeply we take
everything as an iteration. And it
allows you to make mistakes. It allows
you to learn. It allows you not to care
so much. It allows you to have pace over
getting it right. Most people will lose
in life because they are trying to get
it right rather than trying to keep a
pace.
>> It's like forward progress is more
important than getting things right. I
think the as you're explaining it, I'm
noticing what's coming up in me is a
reduction in the sense of grandeur about
and and uh pressure around decisions
like well I'm just you moving forward.
you've removed the finality of this
decision and also kind of baked into it
that an experiment that doesn't prove
the hypothesis isn't a failure. You did
still learn something which is that
hypothesis was wrong and we continue and
continue. I'm sure you've heard
>> and I'm never and I'm never done.
>> Yes,
>> I'm just going to keep on learning. And
that's just one principle.
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That's functionhealth.com/modernwisdism.
Uh, have you heard of GPS brain or the
GPS principle? It's it's something not
too dissimilar, which is if you are
trying to get to a destination following
Google Maps, when you miss the turn,
Google Maps doesn't judge itself or you
for you missing the turn. It just
updates the route.
>> Correct. GPS brain.
>> Yeah, it's cool.
>> Yeah. So, a cool So, there's this guy
who was a I love this story. This guy,
he was a surgeon and he was a dog
trainer. And so in dog training, you
have this little click that tells the
dog you did it right. And you go click,
click, click. And that just it's like a
GPS brain. Click, click, click, click.
So he's working with this um dog, his
dog. He's pretty successful, but he
loses his [ __ ] one day and just [ __ ]
yells at the dog.
>> Doesn't do the clicker, just yells at
the dog. And the dog like goes back like
regresses horribly. And so he's like,
"Oh crap." Like that's what happens when
there's any kind of emotional content
in in his assumption is either good or
bad. It's just like you did it right or
you didn't do it right. GPS brain.
>> So he goes to his surgeon students and
he's teaching them like how to tie
tendons and stuff and there's like a six
press six thing problem and he starts
bringing a clicker
[laughter]
instead of saying good job. You got it
right. Don't do that. What are you doing
here? and he just clicks when they get
it right. And he improved the rate of
their learning dramatically.
>> No way.
>> By having GPS brain. So that's another
like, okay, if if everything is an
iteration is a principle that gives me
GPS brain, which is what it does,
then it helps me be more successful. So
now when I'm confronting a problem, what
do I do about this? One of the
principles I look at is everything's in
iteration.
>> What if everything's in iteration, what
would that tell me to do? And this is in
service of trying to improve the quality
and accuracy of decisions but also rid
that fear. Get rid of that fear. Not
just feeling it. Not just going to the
like reducio adabsium of the kind of
mental projection. It's mostly this is
who I want to be in the world.
>> Do I want to be neurotically freaking
out about each one of my decisions? Nah,
I don't really want to be that. Does
this work as to make me successful? Yes,
it does. Is this like more comfortable
and awesome? Yes, it is cool. That's a
principle.
>> Like I have another principle that is
connection.
It's you know we have the connection
course but it's a principle. It means
that if we build somebody we we how do
we build them with connection? If I'm
sitting here talking to you, how do we
actually build connection? And over the
years we've actually built connection.
If I run a course, how do I make sure
everybody feels like we're deeply
connected with them and we really care
about them because we do. and how do we
help them find connection? And I have
this video with Ali Abdal where I'm
coaching him and we're having this
moment where I was like, "Oh, you I
don't not sure if I mentioned it's one
of my things." I was just like, "Okay,
let's go through all your business
problem and look at it through the lens
of connection.
>> What would make you feel more connected
to yourself and others as a solution?"
And you could see him come up with like
multiple solutions to the problem
because he's just looking through the
lens of that principle,
>> right?
>> And so it's the same thing. And so, so
now I have a decision to make. Let's say
like, do I go on the Chris Williamson
podcast? And I'm like, everything's an
iteration. Okay, I don't give a [ __ ] if
I blow this. Like, why would I care?
Okay, that's a one that's a and
connection. Well, I I love being with
Chris. This is something that makes me
feel connected. I'm going to do it. And
I get to connect with a lot of people.
Yeah. Okay. And so, I'll just go through
my principles. If I have a decision to
make
>> and I will,
>> it feels like I mean, we haven't even
got into the like the structure, but
this seems really interesting to me. I
know the idea of
engineering bravery or courage in a way
that this is like improving your bravery
to some degree. It's increasing your
preparedness to face scary things. When
people think about bravery and courage,
a lot of the time that's what it is.
>> Uh so is bravery or courage are those
words that factor into this at all? It's
so interesting because as you say it I'm
like yeah that's true but it's it's but
it's not wasn't the thought process
right so so the thought process was what
are the thing how I can't control the
outcome of a decision but I can control
>> how I want to be in that decision-m
process am I proud of how I made that
decision that's the thing I can control
so it came from that it came from like I
think over a portfolio of decisions
these principles are going to work and
I'm going to be proud of them even if
they don't work and if they don't work
I'll iterate on the principles
themselves right
>> you know that from the outside somebody
looking at you choosing to make
decisions that are big or scary or
difficult or whatever in that way would
go wow
>> that is brave very courageous that
you've chosen to do there
>> right so so then then then what happens
so this is the cool thing so then you
start making decisions that way and most
of them are easy you're like okay I'll
make it yeah that makes sense okay that
makes sense and then there's one where
it's like I don't want to [ __ ] do
that. [laughter]
There's nothing in me that wants to do
that. But if I look at my principles,
it's very clear that's what I'm supposed
to do.
>> And you look and you say, "Well, [ __ ]
All I can say is that my principles work
most of the [ __ ] time. And I can't
come up with a better solution. So, I'm
going to do it even though I don't want
to do it." And you do it. And maybe it
works. Most of the time it works.
Occasionally it doesn't work. But every
time you act on the principle, the
courage there there's less and less
courage required
because you are positively reinforced
that the principles work which means you
trust them more in future.
>> That's one. And the other one is because
you are being who you want to be. So
there is an implicit reward whether no
matter how it works out.
>> Yes. Yes. I'm showing up in the way that
I want to. And if the choice was between
showing up in the way that I want to and
the decision going wrong and showing up
in the way that I don't want to and the
decision going right, a lot of the time
people would actually prefer the former
to the latter. I think I Margaret Cho,
if I have her name right, she had an
early standup. Like I'm saying how old I
am, but she had an early I think it was
her first standup and she was a comedian
who had like an Asian sitcom
and it failed. And her whole sitcom
thing basically this one woman show is
it failed. But that's not what hurt.
What hurt was I abandoned myself and
then it failed. I would rather have been
true to myself and fail.
>> Yeah.
>> Than been fake and succeed.
>> Have I taught you about audience capture
before? Do you know this term?
>> No. No.
>> You I detest how afflicted you are with
not being on the internet. [laughter]
I require you to be more terminally
online.
[ __ ] infuriating. Um [laughter]
uh Okay. So um audience capture is when
a creator typically on the internet, but
I'm sure it's happened with newscasters
and and and people in late night shows
and more traditional media as well, uh,
begins to not create what they want to,
but they create what they think that
audience wants. So, it's referred to as
throwing red meat to the audience. I get
it. Very common and may have even been
born out of the politics wing. If you're
a political commentator, you know, you
have your takes and your audience comes
to you. Wow, that's an interesting take
for the person that's on the left or the
right or the whatever. and and then
after a while you realize because you're
looking at the popularity uh maybe the
play count the positive reinforcement
that you get oh when I talk in this way
about this kind of subject from this
lens people seem to give me more
positive reinforcement and over time you
like pavlovianly consition yourself into
this type of behavior what's interesting
about this
>> is it's almost like a looking glass
creator
>> Wow
>> here
>> yeah it's [ __ ] cool Yeah, I have a
lot of thoughts here.
>> Um um what you the thing that's one
interesting wrinkle is
>> it's not what the creator knows the
audience wants, it's what the creator
thinks that the audience wants,
>> right?
>> And people don't always know what they
want, right?
>> Which is interesting. Like what's that
Henry Ford line? If I asked the customer
what he wanted, he would say a faster
horse. Yeah. Yeah.
>> Um so that that's that's one interesting
thing. And then you roll the clock
forward a little bit. You know, roll the
clock forward six months, one year, a
couple of years. this creator is now out
of touch with their taste uh because
they haven't created something from
themselves for a very long time. Yeah.
They are kind of marionetted or puppeted
by the audience, but their projection of
the audience, which means they don't
actually know what they want. They're
just kind of trying to do something that
they think that they want.
>> Yeah.
>> And this is the kind of penicious thing.
If the audience stops loving the work
that you do when you compromise yourself
in order to serve them,
>> yeah,
>> you will resent them so quickly because
you say, "How can you not love me? How
can you not appreciate what I'm doing?
Look at what I did for you. I even
pushed myself to the side." Right.
>> Right. I shunted myself to the side of
my own work just to serve you. And I'm
sure you got lots of things, but the one
final bit on top.
>> Yeah. Uh Ethan Strauss wrote this
[ __ ] outstanding article and it's
called criticism capture is more
dangerous than audience capture. He
wrote it about three or four years ago.
He's a sports reporter but he thinks
about audience dynamics and like like
creative dynamics too. What he basically
said is he thinks that it's the
criticisms not the compliments that are
more deranging to people. And when you
see this you actually realize that many
people are criticism captured not just
audience captured. So there's two things
going on. They protect themselves from
the potential negative. They do it by
being more inflammatory, by being more
aggressive, by sort of like the the guy
outside that flares his lats outside of
the nightclub. Or they do it by uh
neutering themselves, by sort of staying
small and milk toast and and always
sitting on the fence and never actually
staking a claim in the ground. Maybe
they do it by always caveatting, by
always having some sort of equivocation
before they speak, so that every single
potential in negative permittation of
what they were going to say is already
being put out there. Uh there's a lot of
ways that they can do this, but um you
see some people that are more um
positive reinforcement
uh compelled. Yeah. Uh and then you see
some people that are more negative
reinforcement compelled. And the perfect
example, and I think that this is true,
and it's the canonical example that's
used by Ethan in his article about
criticism capture. It's Jordan Peterson.
>> Yeah.
>> Is very criticism captured. And you see
how warping and that man had apart from
perhaps like Trump and Tate, but whilst
not being a Tatian, Trumpian kind of
individual. Uh
>> a volume of criticism that almost no one
in history has had to deal with, right?
Outside of like [ __ ] leaders of
countries and [ __ ] like that. And um Who
would be able to deal with that? Almost
nobody. But I do think it's a fair
comment to say that criticism did some
[ __ ] warping. So, audience capture
criticism capture some new ideas for
you.
>> Yeah, I love there's so much stuff. The
first tangential thought I have is like
it it it also creates the creation of
porn-like entertainment.
>> Oh, this is George Mac's idea. You run
enough split tests and you end up with a
porn website.
>> Yeah.
>> This is George's idea.
>> Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's [ __ ]
wonderful.
>> It's like I'm going to if you're red
meeting your audience, I'm going to give
them more and more emotional like this
is happening on our news and everything
like that. I'm going to give them more
and more emotional hotness and but I'm
going to desensitize them so much as I'm
doing it that the the only thing that's
left is like hate and Yeah. So
>> most base most inflammatory.
>> Yeah. Uh so so it's an interesting
thing. It's like audience capture
leading to the destruction of your
audience.
>> The pornification of everything
>> and the destruction of your audience,
which is like fascinating.
>> Um, the second thought process that I
had there is like this isn't just
creators. This is life. This is how
people operate in a in a in a business
with their boss. And did I make them
happy? Did I make the people around me
more pleasure and less pain? Yeah.
Exactly. And that's doesn't make good
decisions.
Like if at if they at the end of the day
if you look at somebody who's been doing
that they either their business or their
audience or their personhood has dropped
off of a cliff somewhere along the line
whether that is
in Jordan's case uh anxiety like deep
anxiety or um you know you become the
person that you hate or you have the
resentment it doesn't actually lead to a
successful
But if you're principled, if you're
saying these are the principles, and
this is true for companies, too.
Somebody who's principled about what
they're doing, it doesn't mean that
they're not listening and they're not
reacting. But if they're principled
about what they're doing, if they're
like this is our brand, and we don't
stray from the brand, or this is what
we're here to do. This is our mission.
We're not strained from the mission. We
might find 20 ways to get it done, but
we're not strained. These are our
principles. Those people have a much
longer lasting success without the
burnout, too. And it's the same with a
human in life. Like if you look at the
people who are 70 year old 70 years old,
have done something significant and are
happy, they're almost always have lived
a pretty principled life. You might not
agree with their principles, but they've
lived a pretty principled life.
>> Does this mean that we need to canonize
our principles before we can start
making good decisions?
>> I don't think before, but it's super
freaking useful. Okay. So, we have a we
have a we have a course called the great
decisions course and that is
>> which everyone needs to get ready to
sign up for because it's in January.
>> January. January sells out usually in a
day.
>> [ __ ] Yeah. Yeah. Well, okay. Get ready.
>> Yeah.
>> Um
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Does this mean Okay. Process
component skills.
>> So, that's one of it. Yeah.
>> Decision- making. Does that mean that is
that one of the first things to do? I
mean, you're not going to stop making
decisions be like I'm going to put all
decisions in a holding pattern, right?
No. No.
>> Including what pants I'm going to wear
today up until the point at which I've
done my principles.
>> Yeah. So one of the things you can do is
just start looking at the decisions you
made in the last year and say what are
the principles I've actually lived by am
I am I proud of those and are they
working
>> might be a ugly reflection
>> yeah for a lot of people it is but yeah
so two main components of great
decision-m and great make making great
choices is can I become comfortable with
all sorts of emotions so that I have my
my set of solutions available to me
>> and the other talk to the girl in the
bot
>> right and the Other one is what are the
principles that I want to live by that
are going to
lead me to success that are going to
solve most of my problems for me if I
just live by my principles.
>> And those two things are going to be
incredibly like that's a a huge portion
of the work.
>> Yeah. That that's really
>> I imagine that's going to be hugely
disappointing to a lot of people that
they were expecting to have some lovely
framework for how to bypass having to
feel things or having to face things.
It's saying, "No, no, no, no, no, no.
What's the flowchart that I follow in
order to make sure that my decision
doesn't require me to encounter any
negative emotions?"
>> Yeah. So, here's here's a here's the
coolest thing. This is one of the things
I get to see in my work so much. This
and I and they're going to hate this
even more,
>> right?
>> I'll give you the example that just
happened recently. My daughter is
applying for colleges and she's like, "I
don't know what to write the essay on.
The essay is so important. This is a big
thing." fear, black and white thinking.
I can't do this. I can't do that. I'm
just watching her say. And I was like,
"Hey babe, [ __ ] them. [ __ ] what the
colleges say. [ __ ] what everybody says.
[ __ ] like what the [ __ ] Like who the
[ __ ] are them? Like be you. What the
[ __ ] do you want?" And she's like, "What
do you like? What's going on?" You know,
>> why you [laughter] swearing?
>> Exactly. And I'm like, I see how angry
you are at this whole thing that you
have to prove yourself to people. like
this is [ __ ] Go get angry for me.
Like and we have a thing in our house
where anger is like so she gets out the
tennis racket. She gets the thing
>> and I'm [snorts] I'm like in Nepal at
this moment, right? And she's at home
and
>> Oh, you're doing this virtually.
>> I'm doing this virtually. Yeah.
>> Wonderful. So you're uh uh cursing uh
your other half to you're subjecting her
to like the hearing. [laughter]
>> She doesn't do it in front of me. Okay.
>> And so she she's like, "Okay, I got it.
I'm going to go get angry." And she
calls me the next day. She's like, "I've
already written three essays.
I have all these ideas. They they're not
quite good enough. They're not what I
want to be yet, but I'm still writing.
This is great. I have to get angry
again." And a dozen times during the
decisions course, easily in a week,
you'll see somebody do that. You'll see
somebody who had a massive decision they
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That's li i v m o m n o.com/modernwisdom
and modernwisdom at checkout. What are
the most common emotions that
people encounter when it comes to that?
They're stuck with a
>> anger, fear, and grief. Sadness. Yeah.
sometimes helplessness.
Yeah. The some of the really like
hardcore decisions. But the but the
underneath that emotional content is
like the identity breaking, right? So
with my daughter there was like she had
to let go of this identity of being the
smart one of the straight A student of
the one who can get anything she wants
done done. She had to say I'm going to
be myself
and people can accept me or not accept
me. And that was her anger. Her anger
was, "Fuck you. Like, I don't care if
you judge me. If it's if your if your
school can't see me, go [ __ ] yourself."
>> This keeps on sounding like bravery and
courage. Like that's the words. And
maybe my conception of bravery is is
tied up in indecisions more closely than
it should be. But like you hear that and
you say, "Hey, this place is going to
take me or it's not going to take me."
and I'm a 17, 18 year old girl and you
know it's a big deal and all of my
friends are going to have things to say
if I don't get into college or whatever
and I don't care. I'm just going to do
the me thing. Like that level of it it
from the outside it seems like self
assuredness, self-esteem, self-worth,
confidence, resilience,
>> bravery, courage. It's like all of these
things wrapped up.
>> It doesn't feel like it in the moment.
I'm with you cuz I'm like yeah, yeah,
that's true. I can't I can't deny it.
But in the moment when you're doing it,
it feels like
I'm being honest.
>> So it doesn't feel like [ __ ] There is
that moment of like, oh my gosh, cuz
there is like the I'm stepping into a
bigger room. There's like, oh my god,
I'm getting on stage and I'm doing this
thing. There is that excitement that
comes along with it. So you feel the
excitement, but mostly you feel like
honesty,
>> right? Because we we know what it feels
like when we compromise ourselves. It
doesn't feel good. Like it like there's
a way to say it takes a lot of courage
and bravery to feel like you're
compromising yourself. That feels like
far worse than
feeling like you've done the right thing
and been rejected.
>> Alex has a line where he says, "Fear is
an inch deep and a mile wide." That when
[laughter]
>> That's so good. Hold on. That's so good.
That's so good. That is so freaking
good.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. looking out over this
massive lake and you, oh my god, how am
I ever going to be able? It's so
terrifying. You go like,
>> "Oh,
>> it's a little splash."
>> That's right.
>> You go, "Oh, fuck."
>> Right.
>> It wasn't that bad. And I mean, he he
So, I don't know how much you know about
Alex. I It would be wonderful to
introduce you to at some point. Um,
>> he I I'm I have enough internet to know
who he is.
>> Oh, impressive. Wow. He's broken. He's
really reached escape velocity.
[laughter]
Holy [ __ ] I I I mean I geek out on
business content, so there's that.
>> And and I actually really appreciate I
appreciate how straightforward he is
>> very much so. So the straightforwardness
I think um is one of the things that I
appreciate about him and we were talking
about
>> maybe over dinner or maybe it was on the
pod about um the first time he had to
make a really difficult decision and
he'd done the
classic college I will be son of a
Middle Eastern father success
>> right
>> path and then he realized that he wanted
to start a gym and the Middle East was
he from Iran yes
>> you know I lived there Why?
>> Because my dad
>> you were in Iran for a
>> when the revolution happened. Yeah.
>> And then that was when you left.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
>> Holy [ __ ]
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Does that feel strange now watching so
much of the world center around Iran? A
place that you know you knew quite well.
>> Yeah. There's a grief in it for sure
because like the people of Iran are
beautiful people. They were like an
incredibly beautiful people.
>> So there's a lot of grief around that.
>> Yeah. So, Iranian father and and and
with all of the accutrants that come
along culturally.
>> Um, and
yeah, Alex sort of tells this story. I
was on track to do this thing and then I
move I start I start gyms and I have to
tell my father and my you know, all I've
wanted to do is kind of impress my
father at some point. Um, and he says
from the outside that looks like an
incredibly brave decision. But the way
that Alex made that first decision was
he drove across the country before he
rang his dad. He literally essentially
went from coast to coast to put himself
a few thousand kilometers away before he
was prepared to pick up the phone. And
one of the things that I'm sure you'll
resonate with is
>> beautiful
>> when you're faced with a difficult
conversation or difficult decision or
whatever especially conversation uh and
you're worried about it and you're
thinking about it and you're ruminating
and thought looping about it and then
you do it. fear is an inch deep and a
mile wide and you step in, you realize
it's not. Soon as you do that first one,
you go, "All right, [ __ ] who else is
on the chopping block? Like, what else
can I do?" And you like, you go from
having,
>> I don't know, being a bow hunter who's
taking forever, very carefully, to wait
to release the thing, and as soon as you
release it, the bow sort of turns into a
beltfed M140 machine gun, [laughter] and
you're like,
um, it's just interesting the way that
the momentum thing works with that. And
I think that you mentioned this before
that there's kind of a breakthrough
moment and then it kind of tumbles
downhill but without spiraling off into
that and also there's just to say this
there's like also a long-term short-term
effect on bravery because the fear is
got that false end. The other thing
that's occurring is
like
if you're doing the thing that is true
to you over time every time you will
have a life that's true to you
because the things that aren't true to
you are going to be failures. The things
that are true for you are going to be
successes. like you're going to create a
life that's organized around who you are
instead of who you're pretending to be
or who you're trying to be or who you
want people to think you are.
>> And so shortterm making a decision that
compromises might work to get your
immediate need met, but it's not going
to work for creating a life that
actually is suited for who you are
essentially. M
>> and like I think Alex is a great example
of this like
he is like I am going to be me period as
well as much as my consciousness knows
who I am that's who I'm dedicated to and
he's created a life that is for him that
works for him well regardless of whether
or not you like him or don't like him or
I think even a a
maybe might be wrong you might tell me
I'm wrong maybe a better example than
Alex is Donald Trump because it's
somebody who has an obvious lot maybe an
even more obvious uh number of reasons
to not be the person that he's being.
>> Uh if that makes sense.
>> Yeah, I see what you're saying. Right.
>> That like the price of being Donald
Trump is quite high. Somebody else
that's actually probably less
triggering although maybe similarly
triggering is Sam Harris. So I think a
lot about Sam Harris when I think about
this. Um,
people regularly accuse Sam of uh
flip-flopping on his beliefs, of not
being uh logically consistent in some
way that they see that they think that
he doesn't see, whatever. Um, but the
reason that I've always had a good bit
of faith that he is doing what he
believes is that he pays an incredibly
high price for the positions that he
takes. How many people do you know that
are anti-Trump but also anti-woke that
are uh like anti-Islam but also prone uh
like nationalized healthcare that are
from the left but are concerned about
people coming across the board like it's
a very nonfgeible like unique
construction right it's very
idiosyncratic and I go okay and for each
of those every time he goes on one side
of the fence and then back over to the
other he pisses off both sides and I go
in order to arrive at that kind of
outcome
>> to me it
If you were just doing it in order to
feed red meat or to like placate
yourself for the world in some sort of a
way, you wouldn't choose that. Those
wouldn't be the decisions that you go
for because it's like deranging
>> to everybody else is confused about what
So, if that makes sense, the
>> more the higher the price that someone
pays for the positions that they hold
and the less that you can predict what
their next opinion is going to be.
Basically, if I if I know one of your
opinions and can accurately predict
everything else that you believe, you're
probably not a serious thinker, right?
>> And uh I find that that's not
necessarily the the case with those
guys.
>> Yeah. And I think that they those are
some extreme examples. I I also see that
there are people who are living, you
know, regular lives that are saying, I'm
going to be true to myself, and they end
up with a life that's actually true to
them. Mhm.
>> And it doesn't it doesn't mean that they
have to be like committed to something
that pisses people off.
>> Yep. Yep. Yep. The bravery show up in
mundane and very boring normal ways
every single day.
>> Exactly. But there are going to be
moments for those people where they are
going to go, I don't want to do it, but
it's the right thing to do.
>> Okay. What What else is there to say
about breaking down those component
skills that that we haven't covered so
far?
>> Yeah. So the on the choice side of
things that's really important is
to slow down. So this is where you get
into the world of habits.
The underlying principle is that your
identity is still at stake, right? So
you still have to work through the
identity piece, but but the other piece
is to really be able to slow down the
emotional process that's happening there
and be present with it in one way or
another. So if you are
um trying to quit coffee as an example
because your coffee somehow you decided
is bad for you. Um
what [laughter]
what you should do instead is reach for
a new tonic. Uh
>> yes sound like a true investor.
>> Um
you have like a series of habits that
are going to trigger that desire for the
coffee. It's going to be an unconscious
reach for the coffee when you drink it.
Can you actually be totally present?
What's the emotion that's happening
before you drink the coffee that makes
you want to drink the coffee that you
get after the coffee to slowly unpack
that experience and start noticing what
you're avoiding or trying to run into.
>> So, this is kind of unwinding current
choices to become decisions in a way.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I would say making turning
choices into conscious conscious
choices.
>> Yeah. And and so that's a really
important skill set if you want to
change kind of the habitual choices that
you're making
>> which is there's lots of tricks and and
James Clear is amazing at what he writes
for all the tips and tricks but one of
the key ones on the emotional level
because the decisions are being made
emotionally is can I slow down unpack
and feel the stuff that I don't want to
feel that drives me into some bad
habits. It comes back to awareness. Yes.
>> Again. Yes.
>> Interestingly, yeah. I mean, I I can
give you an example from my own life
that because I've been fighting with
health stuff for the last couple of
years, a lot of the time that's
disrupted my sleep. When I wake up on a
morning, if [clears throat] my body
decides it wants to rip me awake at 3:00
am or 4 a.m. something and there's this
story that I tell myself of, oh well
[ __ ] like today's already going to be
ruined and this is really really painful
and I'm going to lie awake and I'm going
to stare at the ceiling and this is
super annoying and isn't that going to
suck and I'm not going to perform as
well on the podcast and then maybe
people are going to laugh or they don't
like me and my whole life's going to
fall apart and I got gluten intolerance
and lever under a bridge and it's all
going to go wrong and
reaching for my phone and
being distracting myself from that
emotion.
>> Yeah. is now after a while your sleep
has improved which has meant the fear's
gone away but you're left with the
[ __ ] residue of the habit. [laughter]
There's this very strange situation
where yes, you're being puppeted by the
coping mechanism of a emotion that
you're no longer feeling,
>> right?
>> And that sticks about a lot of the time.
And as now there'll be something else
I'm doing, I'm sure, that is is the
case. I'm like, well, I got to unwind
this thing that I don't even need
anymore that kind of maybe served a
purpose to some degree or whatever. And
now I'm like, well, [ __ ] Like, I've got
to have to go and get rid of that. And
I'm sure there's some other [ __ ] that
I'm doing right now that I probably
should be pointing at too. So like you
end up if you're not careful I think and
this is why people the sort of purto
principle of to those who have
everything more will be given and to
those who have nothing more will be
taken. Matthew principle. Um, the reason
that it seems to suck so much for many
people and the reason that spirals go
down and spirals come up is that if you
don't step in and consciously design
your life if you're living it by
default, you will begin to like
sedimentary rock accumulate these things
over time. And you're like, where the
[ __ ] Like, why have you got that habit?
It's like, oh, I don't know. like 15
years ago this thing was happening and I
did it and now I'm still puppeted by it
even though that's gone. Does that make
sense?
>> Oh yeah, totally. I I think about this
in a company structure all the time
which is bureaucracy does not
>> destroy itself. You have to actively go
in and destroy bureaucracy and what
you're describing is kind of an
emotional bureaucracy.
>> Ah, that's so good. It just like
>> Well, I mean Connor's line, one of my
favorites that he's given to me a
gazillion times, but he dropped
yesterday.
>> One of my favorites is we try to control
that which we cannot trust.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I Yeah. I love that line.
>> Yeah. It's like [ __ ] The first time he
told me that I was like, "Oh, stop." I
was like, "Close the call. I don't need
to hear from you anymore. I'm going to
go and like think about that. I'm going
to think about that for the next couple
of days." Uh, yeah. We try to control
that which we cannot trust and that's
the bure bureaucracy thing, but to some
degree that's also the emotions thing.
>> Well, so yeah. So, let's take your let's
unpack your situation for a second.
You're sitting in
bed waking up and your brain's doing duh
duh duh duh. What's the emotions
underneath are probably sadness and
helplessness.
>> Mhm. Probably some shame as well.
>> Yeah. Yeah. And probably some shame. The
shame is most likely the thing blocking
you from feeling the sadness and the So,
and so a a bureaucratic free mentality
is I'm gonna cry. I'm gonna be scared.
I'm gonna go back to sleep.
>> But nope. Before you can do that, you
have to fill out this paperwork. It's
called a phone. And you need to like
scroll on the phone for this
bureaucracy.
>> And then, okay, now you have to Well,
you've been scrolling on your phone. You
kind of feel like [ __ ] So, you need to
And you didn't get enough sleep, so now
you need some caffeine. And now, but
that caffeine, it kind of makes you
anxious. And so, you've got this
bureaucratic thing that you have to go
through just to get back to some level
of normal.
>> Yeah. You've accumulated, you've sort of
piled this bunch on top. Okay. So,
>> yeah.
>> Uh choices, choices, making the the um
unconscious choices more conscious.
That's one step.
>> Yeah. Yeah. If and feeling the emotions
that are happening around bringing your
awareness to the emotional experience
around the choices. And in all of them,
so it's feeling the stuff that you don't
want to feel, learning how to embrace,
love, the stuff that you don't want to
feel. So that that's this is I think the
hardest part for people to really grock.
So
my story is emotional abandonment was
like I had an alcoholic father. I had an
alon mom. My needs were not taken care
of for a large part. Some were and they
did the best that they could but a lot
of them were not taken care of. And
so when I was growing up, when I was
like in my 20s, I was like,
I'm going to be emotionally abandoned by
everybody. [ __ ] you all. Like anytime I
felt emotional abandonment, I would do
one of two things. I would be like, [ __ ]
you. I don't need you anyhow. Which
created more people emotionally
abandoned me, or I get needy, which
would create more people getting like
emotionally abandoned me. So, so I was
recreating this situation
once I learned that I could embrace
emotional
abandonment, right? So that feeling
would come up and instead of trying to
get rid of it by going [ __ ] you or
please come closer and I was just like,
oh, I can actually experience this. I
can allow for this. I can allow this in
my life.
>> I don't need to run from it. then I stop
doing this and I stop doing this and
people abandon me emotionally abandon me
a lot less and when they do
I don't really mind because I get to
have that experience again and learn
more deeply from that experience
>> and realize that oh their emotional
abandonment doesn't hurt even half as
much as me emotionally abandoning myself
>> and so then all of a sudden I'm like oh
I can't wait to be emotionally abandoned
again because I get that experience I
get to learn again which is weird weird,
but you had that moment. And when you
have that moment with one of these
emotions that you're like, "This is
ridiculous." What starts happening is
you're like, "Oh, let's see where else
what other emotions I can love." And all
of a sudden, these patterns that have
been ruling your life, like emotional
abandonment, start collapse, collapsing
because all you're trying to do is feel
the thing that you couldn't feel as a
kid, which was like, "This [ __ ]
sucks.
like no one's here for me. That was the
feeling I couldn't feel as a kid because
if I did my whole life would collapse.
>> So I couldn't feel it then but somewhere
in my 20s I learned to feel it and then
the pattern starts dissipating in my
life.
>> And so what you start seeing happening
is when people start accepting these
emotions, learning how to love and and
and
accept and say, "Oh, I can't wait to
feel. I welcome this emotional
experience."
And you got to experience this in
Groundbreakers. You got to see what
happened. All of a sudden, these
patterns that are in their lives for
decades just start falling apart because
>> it's [ __ ] terrifying.
>> Yeah, it is.
>> It's really destabilizing
>> because their choices change because
their their decision-m changes.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
>> Yeah.
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Is there a
category of decision
that is marketkedly different?
people, some people may have problems
with like what what am I even going to
wear today or, you know, how am I going
to have a conversation with this barista
at the at the coffee shop? But for the
most part, I think it's going to be
bigger things.
>> Yeah.
>> And when it comes to bigger things, am I
going to stay in this relationship or
not? Am I going to marry this person or
not? Am I going to leave this job or
not? Am I going to move to a new city or
country or not?
>> Yeah.
>> How is is there anything different when
it comes to that? Because it's less
routine, right? like you're not going
this is less of a reversible door not
necessarily a reversible door but
significant like [ __ ] if you're going to
like move back from a country you picked
up all of your possessions and you've
gone over there and maybe there's
financial implications and stuff like
things happening and also how many times
have you moved countries previously like
show me the CV of how this has gone for
you in the past I don't know I've never
done it um I'm thinking about when
people are facing the biggest decisions
of their life what they feel are the
most impactful the most momentous the
scariest the grandest
>> how do advise them to go through that?
>> Well, there's a couple things that I
think are really important to see first
and then we can talk about the advice.
So, the you started with the guy who's
like how do I talk to the barista?
It doesn't matter if it's how do I talk
to the barista? If the decision is like
as hard as it is to like where do I
move, it's because the identity is at
stake. So that person probably has like
social anxiety, some sort of version of
that. And they're like, "Oh my god, like
am I going to be liked? Am I going to be
like their whole identity of I am a
person who's not good with other people
is at stake if they talk to the barista.
>> Uh the person who's like moving, their
whole identity is at stake from like
more obvious reasons. Like I'm a I'm a
I'm a British guy in England who's a
party boy. I am a guy in Austin. Well,
who what the [ __ ] is Austin? Who's going
to like me? Right? So, the identity
starts in either case. That's like a
really important piece to understand.
The other thing to understand is that we
have no idea what their big decisions
are. We have no [ __ ] idea what the
big decisions are. So, you could say my
big decision was to marry my wife, Tara.
Well, how about the decision to meet my
wife? I didn't make it. How about the
first date? I wouldn't even gotten to
getting married if I didn't have the
first date decision.
>> Right. So, there's a whole bunch of
little choices that I made along the way
that allowed for the for me to even be
considering whether I am going to y
>> marry my wife. I think that's
interesting. It's certainly true that
there are some choices or decisions that
we face that we don't realize what the
future impact of them will be.
>> Yeah. Um but I would say that there is a
certain category of decision or choice
that we are going to make where we
realize the likelihood of this being
small
>> isn't that great. Like this is probably
going to be a big decision. So you have
like type one decision errors that sneak
up on you but then the other kind
probably don't evaporate quite as
readily in the other. It's unlikely that
moving countries is not going to be a
big decision let's say.
>> Right. The reason to to think about the
fact that there's a whole bunch of
decisions that led to this that you had
no thought over and no maybe no control
over is to get you get the identity of
you out of the way in making the big
decision,
right? So the identity is that if you're
having a big decision, the identity is
is like, oh my gosh, well, who am I
going to be in this situation? You know,
you talked the other day about the Love
Island thing, right?
You couldn't see yourself the same way
after the Love Island thing. You didn't
choose for that to happen, but it had a
massive stake in your identity. If you
knew that that was potentially a
potential for joining Love Island,
>> existential crisis island. Yeah. No,
[laughter]
>> right. You would have been like, I have
to make a choice. What am I going to do?
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. I
thought I was just going to get to wear
swim shorts for a few weeks.
>> Exactly. So, so the the reason that you
can that is to start separating the
personalness the stop stop start
separating the identity. Mhm.
>> And that's the biggest thing about
making like a really big decision,
whether it's the barista decision or the
thing is to really start looking at who
is it that I want to be like or who even
more profound is
what am I exactly like to really
question that identity. So, if I move to
England and I have no friends,
what does that mean about me? What is it
that I'm scared of? Like, who who how
could I be proud of myself even if I
have no friends in England?
What what essentially am I?
And that question, I remember when that
question hit me, that was a question I
asked myself like 10 times a a a day for
like years.
>> What am I essentially? What am I
essentially?
>> That hearing you say the words what am I
essentially gives me [ __ ] PTSD
[laughter]
reason that we're not going to bring up
beautiful beautiful very grand PTSD.
>> Yeah.
>> Um
>> Okay. And so, so, so in those moments,
the the the added piece I would say is
like this is a great moment to really
wrestle with what you are essentially or
what you want to be.
>> And it's it's an opportunity instead of
seeing it as like how do I make a great
decision like a crack in the veneer of
what you think you are, which means a
crack in the veneer of the limitations
you put on yourself.
>> Wow. gets to get opened up and you get
to see yourself for who you are.
>> Is there do do you do you think about
fear of change is that playing in
because most decisions will result in
some kind of change. Yeah. I I suppose
interestingly uh inaction is also a
decision, right? The decision to
continue doing what's happening now. We
have like a status quo anchor an
anchoring bias inertia momentum thing
that kind of carries us through and well
that's also kind of a decision. It's
just a a decision to not change as
opposed to a decision to change. But I
think about fear of change, difference,
different things being different. Yeah.
Is that does is this got a role to play?
>> So I I just think it's like a higher
order or lower order, right? So fear of
change, what's actually the behind the
fear of change? The fear of change is
the unknown. And what's behind the
unknown? I'm not going to be okay.
>> And I'm not going to be okay as
identity. So I'm scared that I the job
situation is going to change. Okay,
cool. I guarantee you the job situation
is going to change, but I also guarantee
you that you are going to be better off
because of it. Okay, cool. I don't I'm
not scared of the change anymore. I'm
only scared of the change because of the
potential negative repercussions on me.
It's an unknown thing that might be bad
for me.
>> And it's the me that's the essential
part of it. So, yeah, I do obviously
there's a fear of change. It's just a
higher order. It's like it's not the
core of what you're dealing with.
>> Understood. Yeah.
>> Is there anything else to say on the
difficult decision, big grand decision
process?
>> No, not much. Just it's a great
opportunity. I mean, I've had some
amazing that level of like if I have a
client come to me and they're like, I'm
in a big transformation moment in my
life, like [ __ ] is changing. I'm like,
yay.
Because that's where the most growth is
going to happen for a person. And if you
look at your own life and you say, "When
did I grow the most as a human
>> or decline the most because I didn't pay
attention?"
>> Yes.
>> It's going to be those moments of
transformation.
And so, so I get excited for them.
They're huge opportunities. So,
>> I'm aware I'm aware you get excited
because
[laughter]
>> because you are the cross-leggy
emotional equivalent of a Navy Seal
drill sergeant, right?
>> Or like a particularly rough PT. Like
you, anyone that's ever worked with a
trainer or been on a sports team or
whatever and they've seen the strength
and conditioning coach, the strength and
conditioning coach has got this
unnerving grin on their face on the
morning of one practice and they're
like, "Oh, we're going to have fun
today." That's the face you pull.
>> Yeah.
>> That's the face you pull [laughter] more
than you should as you're staring. It is
because you're a bastard and you
[laughter]
it's the I take pleasure in somebody
else's discomfort if they're they're
working hard or doing the thing and you
you're like you're going to face it like
you're going to face it. It's like drill
sergeant.
>> It's the freedom on the other side that
I am excited about.
>> And also Yeah. It's kind of fun to
watch. [laughter]
>> It is
mental torture. Emotional torture. Um,
okay. [snorts] Are there any big
indicators that somebody's about to make
a terrible decision
that you could see that somebody could
sense inside of themselves where they're
about to like, oh, I'm pointing in the
I'm really pointing in the wrong
direction. The reason I ask this is
>> yes,
>> I think good. Uh I think um
expediting success is is great and what
we want but avoiding failure like the um
what's the Warren Buffett's two pieces
of a trading advice uh uh number one is
never lose money and number two is
please read number one um that if you
can go through life avoiding pitfalls
that's a pretty [ __ ] good start
>> and expediting success can come after
rule number oneoid pitfalls. So,
somebody is about to make a terrible
decision. What's going on?
>> So,
I think there needs to be a definition
of like what does it mean to make a
terrible decision, right? So, most
people think a terrible decision is a
decision where they don't get what they
want.
>> That's what they think a terrible
decision is. Meaning like they're
sitting there saying to themselves, "I
want a girl." No, I want a
>> Frosty. That's not a terrible decision.
use something else. I want a cigarette.
>> I want a cigarette.
>> I want a cigarette. There we go.
>> I want a cigarette. And they they
And if they get the cigarette,
then they have made a successful
decision.
That's what they're thinking, right? I
want the girl. Did I get the girl? I
made a good decision. I want the money.
Did I get the money? I made a good
decision. I want the job. Did I get the
job? I made a good decision. That is not
what makes a good decision because the
question is if I got the cigarette, did
the cigarette actually give me what I
want over the next year,
month, week, decade? If I got the girl,
did I get the thing?
>> Right? Yesterday we talked about people
be successful so that they can get the
maid of their choice. But then the maid
of their choice is the only mates of
their choice are the transactional ones
who only want them for their success.
Yeah.
>> So, so the the question is if you're
thinking about it that way, no, I don't
have a way to tell you if you're making
a great choice or a bad choice. I can
tell you that the um more fear that's in
the choice makes it less likely that
you're going to get the thing you want,
>> right?
>> Because if I'm coming to you with
something that I want and I'm scared I'm
not going to get it, you're less likely
to give it to me.
>> Mhm.
I was wondering if you could donate to
my cause.
>> Yeah.
>> Right. Isn't going to be as good as
like, hey, I've got this great cause.
So, the more fear that I have, I'm
probably going to not get the thing that
I want. The more fear that I'm running
when I'm doing it, not that fear is a
bad thing. It just means your fear is
unprocessed.
>> Yeah.
>> The but if you're looking at what's a
good decision like a good decision is I
want the cigarette but I'm I don't get
it.
That is it's easy. Like if a person is
compromising themselves to do the thing,
then they're making a horrible [ __ ]
decision,
>> right?
>> And how will you know if you're
compromising yourself?
>> That is a hard question. There is
something in us that knows.
[snorts]
Oh, I just don't like how I am right
now. There like it's it's and it is
something that you become more and more
sensitive to.
>> It's exactly what I was about to say.
Yeah,
>> that's exactly where I was. That there
is a category of person, maybe even a
large majority of people who have
suppressed that voice for so long that
it's an entirely d-trained muscle,
right? They've atrophied that and even
the lightest even, you know, the bicep
curl of a cigarette is a weight that's
too heavy for them to lift. Yeah.
They're not attenuated enough to that.
So, let's say there's somebody who
hasn't
>> used that muscle for a long time, very
atrophied. They they can't hear the
voice particularly well.
>> Yeah.
>> How would you start? How would you begin
to retrain the muscle?
>> Yeah. What I would say is look at the
last week, month, two months, and what's
the one way in that time frame that you
heard that you you felt this isn't the
right thing to do and you did it anyway?
What's the thing or what's the thing
that's creating resentment in your life?
>> Why resentment?
>> Because resentment means you've
abandoned yourself,
right? Like uh if you ask me to do
something and I don't want to do it and
then I do it
enough times, I'm going to resent you.
>> Period.
Right? So if you look at a marriage and
somebody resents the other marriage, it
means the other person in the marriage,
it means that they're doing [ __ ] that
they don't they're not holding their
boundary. They're abandon they've
abandoned themselves because they're
trying to make the other person happy or
trying to make them not angry or trying
to they're walking on eggshells or
they're accepting some sort of criticism
because it's just keeping the peace. So
resentment is a great way to look at it
or just look back and go, where's the
ways that I don't feel like I was the
person I wanted to be in the last week?
>> Mhm.
>> Right. and take your time with it
because I think most people if they look
at that fully it's it's it's quite a ego
collapse.
>> I can imagine there's a certain category
of person who constantly needs
reassurance from others that their
decisions are okay.
>> Every single one of those moments of
needing reassurance from others is a
self-abandonment.
>> Why?
>> Uh how do you explain this? Um,
it's saying I don't know what's right
for me, which is a lie, but you do.
>> Which means I'm literally giving my
power over to you. I'm I'm saying and
I'm giving my happiness. The
responsibility for my happiness is yours
now, not mine, which is an a
self-abandonment. And I'm saying you
know the answer for me when the truth is
that I know the answer for myself. All
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>> Back in my day, I had to walk 10 miles
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How do you split the difference between
that and genuinely having a friend that
is a good confidant that has a degree of
expertise that knows you, that is able
to see things that you don't see,
you know that this would make a
wonderful case for never listening to
anybody ever about anything in your
life?
>> No, I I'm not ever saying don't listen
to people. I think listening to people
is like where a tremendous amount of
wisdom comes from.
I'm saying that if you're looking for
their approval
>> and there's this big difference.
>> Is this okay for me to do?
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Like somehow or another it's
like if you're saying if you can't say I
feel good about doing this without like
looking over to you and say is it all
right that we do this then you know
you're you're abandoning yourself.
How much of decisiveness do you think is
learning to cope with increasing amounts
of uncertainty?
Yeah. So without a doubt if you're if
you are confident in your identity to
decisiveness increases dramatically.
People who have a very stable sense of
self are far more decisive than people
who don't.
There is also
there's in business what you'll notice
is that most CEOs start realizing that
making decisions is better than getting
decisions right.
>> Making decisions is better than getting
decisions right.
>> Yes. Meaning,
if I have a choice between making 10
decisions a day and making them right,
making sure that they're right, which
I'll never perfectly do, or making a 100
decisions a day and just getting them
made, the 100 decisions a day is a
better choice. And the reason is is
because as soon as you make a decision,
then you're testing your thesis against
reality.
>> If I'm sitting there going, "How do we
market?" Well, let's make sure we market
it best. What's the thing? And do all
the data. I have I'm not running any
experiments. I'm not actually going,
well, what did the audience say? Okay,
what did I learn? As soon as I make a
decision, then I run an experiment. Then
I learn something. Then I can make
another experiment. Then I can I'm
interacting with the world and learning
from the world immediately. And so
making the decision allows the action to
happen so that the learning can occur.
And so it's the same in life is that be
making that decision is really
important. The thing that stops you from
making the decision is again if your
identity is in jeopardy. So there's
certain identities like if I have the
identity of I'm an action guy, then it's
easy for me to be decisive by nature.
>> Yeah.
>> But if I have the identity of I have to
be right because every time I was wrong,
my parents criticized me for 20 years
and made fun of me and like 6 years
later I'm at dinner table and I'm still
being told how I like made a mistake
from 6 years ago. then I'm gonna be
like, "Okay, I gotta I gotta make this
thing right
>> because my identity is is engaged." And
so, as people start to
be really confident of like this is who
I am and I'm valuable
just because I'm valuable,
>> those people become far far more
decisive. And and even more than that,
it's like there's less decisions and
more choice because there's less fear
because there's less
>> there's less identity at stake. Like
what? Like what what what do I have to
worry about?
>> George has this line. He says, "I'd
rather be high conviction and wrong than
low conviction and right."
>> Oh, [ __ ] right. Absolutely.
>> Cool.
>> Yeah. Because I will learn I'm wrong a
lot quicker.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. I'd rather be high conviction and
wrong. I love this thought process that
there's this test we use for gauging
talent and it's a a test that has uh xy
axises that people think are
not
uh they think they're contrary when
they're not contrary and it's called
paradox axises and so one of them is
conviction and one of them is openness
and most people think you can either be
convicted and open but this graph is
basically saying you can be high in
convicted, high in openness, low in
both.
Right?
>> Why do you place yourself on the graph?
>> I I test as both very open and very
convicted,
>> right?
>> And and but I say I say that because
that actually makes it makes really good
decisions.
>> But that comes from a confidence in your
identity. Meaning I am totally happy to
be wrong and that doesn't threaten who I
am. So, I love being open and I have
high conviction because if I don't have
high conviction, I don't take action.
>> Yeah.
>> Does regret play a role here? Lots of
people fear future potential regret so
much so that they get stuck and
paralyzed in the moment now. Almost
transpose it from the future and start
to feel it down in the present.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I see that for sure. The
interesting thing that I noticed with a
lot of people, and I think this is
really useful for folks at home,
do you re will you regret
what you're imagining will happen more
than you regret
being indecisive for 3 months about
whether to marry the woman or not? M
>> what's interesting is that the thing
that people fear
is often the thing that they are feeling
and stuck in
in the moment of trying to make the
decision.
>> Like I'm really scared that if I marry
her I'm going to be stuck. You're stuck
right now
trying to make this decision for six
months.
I am really scared that I'm going to
regret that I wasted my time if I do
this wrong. You're wasting your time
right now in making this like decision
for like 3 to 6 months.
>> A low conviction stew.
>> Exactly. So, so what's amazing is that
the often times the thing that people
are scared the emotional consequences
people are scared of are far less.
They're one inch, but the [ __ ] you're
stewing in right now is like 10 inches
deep to use Alex's.
>> There's a a line from Alanderon talking
about leaving relationships. And he
says, uh, people are worried about
leaving relationships because they're
scared of being lonely, but what they
don't realize is that exiting is the
first step toward feeling connected.
That the loneliness they fear is what
they're already enduring.
>> Exactly. That's exactly that's often
times the the consequence that we're
scared of in the decision is the thing
that we're actually currently suffering.
>> Yeah. And is less at a velocity or an
amplitude that's less than than we're
currently dealing with.
>> Well, there's also the opportunity for
it to stop where there isn't any
opportunity to stop unless you take the
action.
>> Yeah. And presumably less shame
>> around well I am doing this to myself.
>> Yeah. I'm choosing to I'm
like imprisoned inside of this cell and
I know that not only am I the prisoner,
but I'm also the captor that's holding
the keys.
>> And for some reason I refuse to put the
key in the [ __ ] lock and turn it and
open the gate.
>> Yeah.
>> The other thing that's really
interesting is I think people when in
they're in that deep indecisiveness,
they really forget that they're being
super self-abusive.
M
>> there's a lot of self abuse in that. You
have to get it right. Why? Why can't you
get it wrong? What's the problem? Like
you you don't know. It's like you're
literally telling yourself you have to
get it right. You don't know. You don't
know what's best for you. You don't like
you can't and whatever happens, you're
not going to be able to work yourself
out of it. You know that, right? Like
you're not going to just be able to take
it as a lesson and then like grow from
it. It's going to destroy you forever.
Like that's the that's the subtext of
being indecisive,
right? And so that level of self- abuse
is
is is often unagnowledged or
unrecognized. And when somebody actually
sees it, it often can allow them to see
like themselves in a way that allows
them to be more decisive. Can you go
just for a little bit? Can you go full
Joe Hudson Connor Beataton crossover and
apply as much pain as possible to people
that are being indecisive? Like what
what are the costs that people
>> have to apply pain?
>> Apply some pressure. Give them the
gravitas of the situation like how
important is this? And and what is it
that they what is it that the situation
is costing them if they choose if they
continuing if they continue to be
indecisive? What does indecisiveness
cost you?
Yeah. Um I think the thing I would say
in that is some version of
I'm I'm really sorry
you're depressed
and that somehow or another you think
you need to be perfect
to be valuable, to be loved, to be
worthy.
and you
you don't
and if you could see yourself clearly
for a moment, you would see that this
decision isn't going to define you for
who you are and that you're worthy of
love no matter what decision you make
here.
>> So, make the one you're proud of.
>> I would say something like that.
[snorts]
>> What else is there to say?
>> You dweeb.
>> You [laughter]
[ __ ] idiot.
How does this relate to assertiveness?
Cuz I imagine maybe not quite the same.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> But the people pleasing, the standing up
for myself, the saying what's true for
me, the the assertiveness. I imagine
people who have
>> clicked on an episode about decision-m
to become better with their decisions.
>> Yeah.
>> May also, you like the you may also like
this
>> thing. It's like you may also be
interested in
>> being more assertive. How do you come to
think about assertiveness?
>> I'm not going to be audience shaped like
what was I'm sorry. What was it called?
Audience
>> captured.
>> Yeah. I'm not going to be audience
captured like that. I don't give a [ __ ]
>> That's right. Yeah. [ __ ] you. [laughter]
I'm going to talk about [ __ ] sushi.
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
>> Exactly. Um I assertiveness I think can
be
>> So there's a difference between being
assertive I would say and having agency.
I would say that
if you do the work to be decisive, you
definitely feel like you have more
agency.
>> Agency to life.
>> Yeah. Agency doesn't have to be
assertive. And I think those get
confused a lot.
>> Can you give me an example of a way that
somebody is uh agentic but non not
necessarily assertive?
>> Yeah. um uh
like a great actor. They're they say,
"I'm going to be this kind of an actor.
I want and I'm committed to these kinds
of roles and I'm going to do it and
people accept me and I'm going to go for
auditions, but I'm not going to like
create my own role and and and get a a
whatever get directed and buy a script
and produce the thing so that I can
finally have the role that I want." Now,
some people would that would be called I
would call that more assertive, but but
this person has agency. They're saying,
"I'm going to live the life that I want
to live. I want to be the person that I
want to live." I think there's an
assertiveness that in some people's
definition that goes along with
aggression like I'm going to like
fundamentally and and I think for some
people their nature is not that level of
aggressiveness. They don't have that
fire
>> imposition in that way.
>> Yeah, they don't have that fire, but at
the same time, they're not going to
compromise. And I remember when I was in
college, there was a um right before I
got kicked out of my first college, um I
was taking a class on Herman Hess and
there was a German teacher and the
German teacher was
uh lived through the Berlin bombings and
and he said, "When we were under the
under the tunnels and the bombs were
happening and people were yelling up
top, it was always the quiet
non macho man and the non assertive type
who went up and pulled them out of the
of the bombing and it was always the
bravado guy who didn't
>> and so that to me would be the
difference like one of them has
assertiveness but they don't have the
agency to be themselves
>> are they inversely linked in your
opinion more assertive people less
agentic No, not at all. Right. I think
they're just not correlated.
>> Right. Okay.
>> Yeah. But I do think there's a a
tremendous amount of people who are
>> My experience is there's a tremendous
amount of when you when you become when
you be get really good at decision-m
that you it's a very high agency place.
>> Mhm. Well, it's I would imagine it is
difficult to be high agency and
indecisive.
>> Correct. So even if
>> decisiveness is it's necessary but not
sufficient right perhaps to be agentic.
George is currently trying to get his
conception. He's got this [ __ ]
tricycle that he sent me a photo of the
other day. George George Mack he's
writing a book on agency. He's going to
writing the definitive book on high
agency. It'll come out at some point in
the next year and a half. And I've
watched this guy craft this thing like
watching like a
like David be carved out of a massive
block of Do you know the story about
David about how a number of other uh uh
sculptors had tried their hand at that
block of marble previously?
>> No, I had no idea.
>> Really cool. So I've been to see it
twice and I've taken the same tour and I
just for me
>> it's Michelangelo. Yes.
>> Okay. Cuz that also
>> is Yes. True. One of my favorite, by the
way, one of my favorite symbols in the
world.
>> Oh, it's beautiful.
>> God stretching out, reaching for man,
and man's just not worth. He's not I'm
not going to [ __ ] lift a finger for
you, [ __ ] [laughter]
>> Play around. Yeah, it's so true. But I
actually got the guys to move that a
tiny little bit because when you look at
how close together it is, we looked on
the the painting and it was too close.
it was closer than it is in the painting
because the whole point is that um even
the ligament that was uh the way that
the hand was shaped because there was a
ton of dissections being done right by
Michelangelo and he'd realize the way
that the ligament is when it's relaxed
and when it when it is stretched but it
was too [ __ ] close. I was like I I
know that we've done all of this time in
the studio and all this stuff.
[laughter] I was like can we just move
it like about 2 in further apart? Um,
but no, so Michelangelo's David, this
block of, you know, gargantuan block of
marble. Have you ever seen it in person?
>> I have not.
>> Dude, it is. And because it's on a
plinth, it's a [ __ ] plinth. So,
it's already his foot's pretty much head
height or maybe even higher. And then
he's 8t tall, maybe 10 feet tall, maybe
more. Massive. Massive. Maybe even more.
Maybe like 12 feet tall. He's huge guy.
And with the proportions as well that
were used to kind of accentuate that. So
much bigger hands by proportion. longer
arms, longer legs by proportion than you
would have. So, it's long and tall and
big at the same time.
>> Uh anyway, this block of marble had been
a number of sculptors had had a crack at
it previously and sort of started like
[ __ ] it's too unwieldy to use. It's
gargantuan thing. And um he was the one
that that went to go and do it. And my
favorite thing, which I've said a
gazillion times on the show, but not for
a while, is uh the Michelangelo
[clears throat] effect. two people in a
relationship, friendship, intimate
partnership, see the best in each other.
And over time, like Michelangelo saw
David inside the marble and he just
removed that which was not David. Yeah.
>> And then David emerged.
>> I love that.
>> And it's the same thing that you know
the best kinds of friendships and
relationships are is I see in you the
best parts of you and I'm going to help
to bring that out. I'm going to try and
cut away all of this other stuff that
isn't you.
>> I don't even think all that is
necessary. It's just seeing the other
person. Like my experience is like
that's the when we teach people
coaching, that is the core of what we
teach.
See them see the wisdom. See see them as
who they actually are. Even if they
can't see themselves, listen to that
part. Talk to that part.
>> That's all that's really required is to
just see them as they essentially are
and everything else takes care of
itself.
How do people know the difference
between
their genuine embodied
wisdomfueled intuition
and something masquerading as intu in
intuition, impulsivity,
fear that I imagine many clever people
that are two hours into a podcast about
decision-m will be afflicted with. uh
they've managed to cleverly contort and
pretzel this thing actually. Oh, that is
my intuition speaking, but it's not.
It's just a a clever like confabulation
of of what is actually fear or maybe it
is impulsivity or coping or whatever. Is
there a way to discern?
>> Yeah. The way in coaching relationship
it it is your capacity to understand
yourself, right? So the more clearly you
see yourself, the more clearly you can
see others
>> like and and exactly the way I can't see
myself is exactly the way I'm not going
to be able to see you.
>> Can we can you tell me about what your
retreat was like that you did recently?
I've been real excited to learn about
this. Are you Do you mind talking about
this?
>> I don't want to talk about this. Okay.
>> Yeah, there's a lot. I mean, I can we
can go for a walk and find
>> I can tell you I can tell you like a
broad thing, but I I can't Yeah. Um
yeah, I've been ever since I was in my
20s, I really got into uh the Vadic
sciences generally just as one of the
avenues in which I've learned. So I got
into Zen, I got into Herman Hess, I got
into the Vadic sciences. And the Vadic
sciences have a a part that's all about
health. And they have something called
Ayurvedic health. And they have
something that they do for longevity
called poncha karma. You could call it
longevity, you could call it health. I
call it health. And it's basically like
a reset where there's a very particular
diet and they give you in this
particular place where I went um they
give you like six hours of treatments a
day and they can be they're all sorts of
crazy treatments and um and so I did it.
Uh it was I've done it three years in a
row now. This is the most intense one
that I've ever done. and I found a very
intense place to go
>> and it was an amazing emotional roller
coaster which I haven't experienced in
years. So that was really cool to like
watch my emotions do this thing.
>> Yeah, I imagine that sounds a little bit
like a Brazilian jiu-jitsu fourthderee
black belt going, I got twisted into a
pretzel. That's been a little while. I
didn't think that that was going to
happen. I remember what that feels like.
>> Yeah. And it was all through physical
stuff. So the the part that I enjoyed
the most about it is that they really
disenourage discourage talking. So
everywhere there's room setting silence.
There's no phones in the cafeteria.
There's no talking in the cafeteria that
like you're basically alone quiet. It's
in a forest, you know, and so
>> little like noble science adjacent noble
silence adjacent.
>> Yeah. So I got to do a lot of meditation
which made me really happy. So I got to
really observe the [ __ ] the the
craziness of basically
>> I think the mood was mostly just a
nervous system because there was a a
huge part of it is a nervous system
reset or in their words it's like a VA
reset and and so there was just this
massive kind of for this 6 day period of
just like wow holy crap I got to do
things why am I got to do that I don't
need to do anything why do I have to
like that kind and I was and it was in
this contrast between like absolute
bliss and peace. So I'm like, "Oh, this
is amazing." And then IT JUST TURNED ON
AND then it just turned off and it just
turned back on cuz they're just like,
[laughter]
"What happens when I do this? What
happens I do that?" Right. Yeah. And I
got to experience, by the way, I got to
experience the doctor having that facial
expression.
>> He was a Navy Seal thing. I'm going to
poke you in the thing and it's going to
[laughter] make the stuff happen to you.
Wonderful. It makes me that's karmic for
me to find that you're on the receiving
end for once.
>> I feel satisfied.
>> I I I much prefer to be on the receiving
end because that's where the freedom's
on the other side of it. So
>> yeah. And and and
I there's no shortage of it. You've met
my wife, but you haven't met my
daughters. There's no shortage of me.
>> Met one very briefly. I think she come
from Cross. She playing.
>> Oh yeah. Okay. So you met Una? Yes. We
did a podcast with her. Such a good
podcast. Was it like is it something
titled like what it's like to be Joe
Hudson's daughter or some [ __ ] like
that?
>> I can't I don't remember.
>> Yeah. Okay. You're not in the titles
until optimization.
>> I am I am I am horribly not on the
internet
>> again. Yeah. [laughter] Afflicted with
it. Uh dude, I love you.
>> What a pleasure to be with you.
>> I love you a bit. Um people that are
interested in this, what should they go
and look at? Where should they go? Uh we
have the decision there's we have a
couple podcasts on decision-m that go
into some depth on all of the things
that we talked about and uh the decision
great decisions course. I will say it's
only a fiveweek course but oftent time
it is an extremely intense course
because you're going right into a lot of
these emotions. So just like know that
that's what care.
>> Yeah that's know what you're getting
into
>> and that's at this begins at the start
of
>> January. I think we sell it the very
beginning of January like as a New
Year's resolution kind of thing.
>> When does that go live? You got any
idea?
>> Like when the the
>> You can get on You can get on to the
waiting list and the waiting list gets a
24hour early thing and you can get on
the waiting list today
>> and it usually sells out with the
waiting list.
>> Within the waiting list.
>> Yeah. Great. Uh connection course, all
of the other stuff, art of
accomplishment podcast. You're the best.
>> Thank you, man. Pleasure.
>> See you next time, my beauties. Dude,
>> that was a good one. very tempting.
>> A quick note, lots of people tell us
that YouTube unsubscribes them from the
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