I'm here with Jonathan Kaplan. You are a
member of the King's Council. One of my
tasks was to deliver each copy of the
magazine called Flying Saucer Review to
Prince Phillip. They would interview
witnesses to significant UFO events at
the palace.
>> Really?
>> Yes. Elite families seem to have this
long history with the topic. The
Rockefellers funded a lot of UFO
research. In the '90s, they were funding
John Mack and Steven Greer. Dan Castello
said that he saw King Charles flying in
a saucer.
This very esteemed Israeli scientist
called Haime Mashed talking about
crashes, the acknowledgement of
non-human intelligences, talking about
agreements with terrestrial governments.
He says that an elliptical craft was
discovered in Comanche Point in the
Grand Canyon. And so, and there's all
these conspiracies about why parts of
the Grand Canyon are restricted zones.
We've had 30 UFO crashes to date. Bases
on Mars with humans and ETSs.
>> We've flown to Mars. We've already been
there.
>> You lend a lot of credibility to the
Majestic 12 documents. The 1st of
October 1947, Sir Henry Tisdel, the
chief scientific adviser to the UK
Ministry of Defense, he sets up a secret
flying saucer working party. That
working party report is then published
and it says that this subject should be
given as little publicity as possible.
>> And we know that that that's a fact. The
Tis working UFO group.
>> Yeah. Some of those documents refer to
the Kennedy assassination. And I know
that is a highly contested document
basically saying that Kennedy is
interfering too much in our activities
and we need to do something about it.
>> Really? Yeah. That's wild.
>> And the odd thing about this phenomenon
is a surprising number of people have
got some experience to tell. I did have
a memory which appears to be a memory
before I was born. Seeing a craft return
and speaking to people who had come off
that craft. I wasn't allowed to go on
it. And then I had two beings who showed
me my parents and told me I had to be
born again. When you say born again, it
was I was had to go back. An experience
I had which has stayed with me. I have a
quite a strong recall of the first 48
hours of my life. What do you think the
link is between UFOs and life and death?
>> Ignition sequence.
>> How is this possible?
>> Nothing too unusual about it. Their
existence cannot longer be denied.
I'm here with Jonathan Kaplan, who is a
prominent trial lawyer, a barristister,
uh, who's written an incredible book.
It's called UFOs: The World's Best Kpt
Secret. And it's an incredible, I'd say,
kind of macro uh big history book around
the UFO topic. It does a lot of
sensemaking. Um there are all sorts of
really interesting tidbits I want to
dive into. You are a member of the
King's Council and rumors are that
you've had some interactions possibly
with the royal family around this issue.
So, there's so many things I want to
dive into. Thank you for being here,
Jonathan.
>> Thank you, Jesse, for having me. I'm
really excited. Um, so why don't we
just, you know, I sort of teased people
with that intro there. Uh, talk about
the fact that you are a member of the
Kings Council. I think people with your
sort of conventional credentials aren't
often into UFOs. Uh, it seems like you
have some reason to believe that people
at the highest levels of British
politics, you know, even, you know,
symbolic figureheads like, uh, the royal
family are interested in UFOs. Is that
right?
>> Yes. So I mean I can't speak about um
living members of the royal family but
when I became involved in this subject
um 50 years ago now I was working on the
editorial board of a magazine called
flying saucer review which we became
quite well known. Uh it had
correspondents like uh the young Jacqu
Valet and others on it. And one of my
tasks was to deliver each copy of the
magazine to the Equiry uh to Prince
Phillip. And Prince Phillip uh he's no
longer with us uh was very interested in
this subject. Uh so was his eurquy
and um on occasions they would interview
quite key witnesses to uh significant
EUO events at the palace.
>> Really?
>> Yes. So, Prince Phillip would bring in
witnesses to significant UFO events and
personally
no his inquiry would uh it was obviously
with Prince Philillip's consent and full
knowledge and uh then his inquiry would
prepare a transcript on a report and
they would discuss it. That's wild. What
are examples of cases? Well, there was a
famous case involving a BOAC strata
cruiser with Captain Howard. I remember
that was one case. Explain to the
audience what is BOAC? So BOAC was the
old terminology for British Airways and
um there was a case involving a plane
coming from New York and uh flying
saucer had uh cited by the passengers
and the pilot on that plane and they
were very keen to find out more about it
and Captain Howard bravely in those days
reported the sighting because pilots
were pretty much penalized if they did
that in in back in the 1970s60s.
10 of us, the entire crew and some of
the passengers watched this object for
18 minutes and I think there's no
question that it was no illusion and
that it was being intelligently handled.
>> Interesting. And so there's a sighting
and then the the Prince Philip asked to
learn more essentially through
>> his would find out more and uh he was
his equ of course was um great friends
with people who were on active service
in the uh Royal Air Force. they would
tell him of sightings that the air force
was having and yep uh they wanted to
collect uh a database so they could have
discussions and keep up to date with
what was a fascinating phenomenon even
then.
>> What what were the exact details around
this British Airways sighting? I don't
honestly remember the precise details of
that case except that a a flying saucer
was reported by Captain Howard to have
followed the crow the aircraft for quite
a while.
>> Any other prominent cases that uh Prince
Philip seemed to inquire into?
>> Yes, there was a case involving two
school boys um in Darbisha who took a
photograph of three UFOs. Um that
photograph showed
three flying saucers and they wanted to
speak to the boys and find out more
about the circumstances in which they
took the photographs. How do you think
Prince Philip got interested in the
subject to begin with?
Well, I think um he was a very
open-minded individual and he uh
was obviously in in touch with people in
the armed forces and of course the air
force uh were obviously a significant
part of uh his duties and he would have
had contact with very senior air force
officers. Um so I I think probably
through uh talking with them and um his
inquiry then had went on uh which he
wrote about in a book called Sounds from
another room to have a rather strange
experience
which was that he was invited by a army
general to go to Chelsea to meet a lady
called Mrs. Markham
and uh she had wanted to meet him to
discuss the EUO situation and he went
and when he got there he found a man in
a rather dimly lit room who uh was
introduced as Mr. Janus who then
proceeded to ask him about Prince
Phillip and then to ask him about what
he knew about the topic of uh UFOs
and uh the then said well from then on I
knew he could read my mind and he was
telling me a lot of uh secrets uh which
I had learned through my position as
being a member of the Royal Air Force
and through my life in the palace and I
realized ized that this was a man to be
reckoned with and Mr. Janus's objective
was he very much wanted to be introduced
to Prince Phillip whom he described as a
man who was obviously uh very keen on
ecology
who was very open-minded
and who would be a great ambassador for
uh the human race. Uh but um uh the
Aquari then became rather nervous
obviously uh left and made a note as
contemporaneous as he as he could
remember it of that discussion in which
Mr. Janus told him quite a bit about um
advanced civilizations and how they were
very keen to uh um develop uh um another
race and to help that race progress and
um to save this planet. And that note
obviously would have been taken to
Prince Philillip. Uh but he decided
against making an introduction although
he did go back to try to contact Mrs.
Malcolm later and um she had moved.
>> Wow. Fascinating. Who do you think Mr.
Janus was?
>> Well, S Peter Horley who was the Equiry
clearly thought that he was an
extraterrestrial or or a non-human
intelligence, let's say. He said
extraterrestrial at the time because
that was the uh focus for um the pilots
of these craft as they understood it in
those days. Um, and uh, probably he may
have been because the uh, he certainly
was communicating with Peter Horley on
other levels besides vocally and letting
him know that uh, he had quite advanced
psychic powers. Um, and I suspect it was
a genuine attempt to try to meet Prince
Phillip. So, one of Prince Philip's
chief aids openly writes about meeting
with a person quote unquote who seems to
know a ton about UFOs and ETSs and then
even read his mind and he himself
speculates that this person is actually
nonhuman.
>> Yes, he formed that view pretty quickly
and he could not have written his book
without Prince Phillip's approval.
>> Fascinating. Wow. Okay. Well, that's
very interesting. Who is uh Lord Louis
Mount Baton?
>> So Lord Louie Mountbatton
um is um a was a senior member of the
royal family. He was he was actually
killed on his boat when it was blown up
by the IRA. Uh he was uh is our current
king's uncle and he too was interested
and there are many stories um about his
interest. He served in the Royal Navy
during the war and a craft was supposed
to have landed on his estate at
Broadlands and to have been seen by the
gardener and uh Lord Mount Batton was
supposed then to have interviewed him
and uh again to have passed that to
Prince Phillip
>> and and did he sort of help get Prince
Philip interested in this subject or
>> I don't know which way round that
interest um started.
Uh but they were clearly both
interested. And funnily enough, um you
can go forward to a journalist who
figured quite prominently in UFO history
later, a an American journalist called
Dorothy Kilgallon.
Uh she died in very mysterious
circumstances. Uh she was a friend of
Marilyn Monroe. She was um a friend of
uh the Kennedes and um she wrote an
article when she was stationed in London
in 1955
which for its day was quite surprising
because she said that she had been
informed by reliable sources that a
craft had crashed and that there were
small humanoids aboard the craft and
that she'd been informed by a very
senior cabinet member.
Now, nobody quite knows who her source
was, but Tim Good, who's a friend of
mine and of course has written a number
of excellent UFO books, has speculated,
and I've gather from another source,
although I can't be quite certain that
that source was Lord Mountbatton.
>> Wow. Interesting. So, he might have been
familiar with actual crash retrieval.
>> He could well have been. Yes.
And um do you think King Charles is
interested in UFOs?
>> I wouldn't be surprised.
>> Um why can't you talk about your current
interactions?
>> Well, I mean I wouldn't talk about any
uh living person about their views. I
think those are personal and
>> because there are rumors that he's
interested,
>> I believe. So, yes.
>> Yeah.
Fair enough. There's even um uh we were
talking earlier, there's um a UFO
researcher out here named Mark
Christopher Lee. He made a whole
documentary about UFOs and the royal
family. And in it, he interviews this
guy, Dan Castello. I don't know if
you've heard that name. He was this guy
who was he was a diver in Nova Scotia on
what he claims to be some top secret
project. And he said that he saw King
Charles flying in a saucer and he's been
in the room with some of these royal
family members. And I don't know what to
make of it.
>> Well, I I'm afraid I don't know what to
make of that either.
Yeah, it's pretty wild. But the royal
interest in UFOs, it doesn't occur in
sort of a vacuum. Like I think a lot of
European elites seem interested in the
subject. Uh the royal prince of uh
Likensstein, Hans Adams II, uh is also
interested in UFOs. So much so that, you
know, he's in photos with Bob John who
was, you know, running the Princeton uh
Anomalous Engineering Research Center
pair um and with Hal Putoff and I
believe Ed May who you know helped run
the psychic spy program for the CIA has
stories with uh uh the Royal Prince of
Likenstein. So I think there is there's
some you know connection there. I think
there is I think that the the European
royals have got a tradition of being
interested in this subject and without
going too far on a limb I think the same
is true in Monaco.
>> Interesting. So why do you think that?
>> Well, just from conversations I've been
privy to uh and I've listened to, I
think that's the case.
>> And what can you say anything more? No,
I I just think that um uh that that they
have an active interest.
>> Okay. And is any of this public? Have
they said anything?
>> Okay. So, they might have an active
interest as well.
>> Interesting. And then where do you think
the interest stems from? Do you think
it's one of those things where it's like
if you fulfilled the lower end of
Maslo's hierarchy, you know, you got
food and all this sort of basic
subsistence level stuff down, which
obviously any member of the royal family
does. you can start to deal with
esquetology and life on other planets
visiting us and that sort of thing or is
it a more intimate connection and do you
think they sort of try to commune or
contact these things or might have an
asymmetric view into the technology?
I don't know of any um actual contact
desire or attempts but I guess um once
you don't have to uh deal with the daily
problems uh you know your mind is freer
to range about to the possibly greater
issues and I think probably I think
there's um a discussion amongst
different royal families and different
families of wealth could talk about the
Rockefellers you talk about others. Um
and uh this is a topic uh which has
interested them. I mean who are we?
Where have we come from? Uh what do
these sightings signify? Um I think this
is not just dinner table talk. I think
it's something that they're deeply
interested in.
>> Yeah. Well, Eric Walker, who is
president of Penn State and he was
rumored to be on the Majestic 12. In
fact, one of um Vanavar Bush's sort of
top, you know, research guys, Robert
Sarbacher, who's an atomic energy
expert, said Eric Walker, uh was privy
to Wright Patterson Air Force Base at
the time, Wright Airfield debriefs on
the UFO issue and and knows all about
it. And a couple of researchers, um, you
know, walked into his office and spoke
to him. William Steinman, I think.
>> Bill Steinman. Exactly. And Scott Crane.
And they were asking him about, you
know, UFOs. And he said, uh, elite
families seem to have this long history
with the topic and know all about this.
And so I find that to be very
interesting along with the fact that you
have, you know, Chris Melon is at the,
you know, forefront of the conversation
in the US. He's obviously like, I
believe, one of the sole heirs to the
Melon family fortune. And um the
Rockefellers funded a lot of UFO
research. Um in the '90s they were
funding John Mack and Steven Greer. Um
so they were all kind of all over this
topic. Yeah, I agree with that. And uh I
I think there is a tradition of being
interested in this subject and um yeah I
mean um Eric Walker and Sbacker as you
say were um um linked to well Walker was
anyway to MJ12 and um yeah I don't know
how how officially linked they are but
privately they certainly are linked and
I think have been prepared under certain
circumstances of privacy to invest
in acquiring greater knowledge.
>> You talk about in your book a very
accomplished Israeli official who has
all sorts of accolades uh you know when
it comes to uh Israeli defense uh in
fact kind of set up the equivalent of
the space force in Israel uh saying all
sorts of really interesting things about
UFOs. Do you want to talk more about
that?
>> Sure. So um I think it's probably back
going back now about 6 years. Um a book
was published I think in December 2020
by a uh astrophysicist called Haime
Mashed. He was really the father of the
Israeli uh space industry and um had
been responsible for the early Israeli
satellites. And in a book um Beyond the
Horizon, which has only ever been
published in Hebrew or
uh the last part of the book deals with
uh his comments on UFOs, crashes, and
what he's learned about the subject. And
at the it was co-authored in fact by an
Israeli journalist called um uh Hannar
Yagai.
And he then at the same time gave one
interview um just prior to publication
to an Israeli newspaper.
And that interview went actually even
further than book and talked about
agreements between the United States uh
one or two other countries and a
federation called the what he called the
Galactic Federation. So basically you
have this very esteemed Israeli
scientist talking about crashes, talking
about uh the acknowledgement of um
non-human intelligences, talking about
agreements with terrestrial governments.
And it was pretty astounding.
And that interview um in the newspaper
uh pretty much like David Gus's evidence
to Congress in July 2023 went around the
world and I thought well um I must make
some contact in the Israeli space agency
quickly and I went to uh Israel to try
to contact him and extraordinarily
he went completely to found. He wasn't
answering the phone. He wasn't answering
emails.
>> Had you been in contact with him before
that?
>> No, but I I got a very senior contact in
the space agency uh to work on my behalf
to try to contact him. So I contacted
his co-author Hagarani
and she said, "I really can't speak
about the book at all and I can give you
no interviews." So you've got this
extraordinary situation of uh this book
being published neither um Eshed or or
Yaga wanting to give any interview and
in fact closing down completely and the
book has never been published in English
and I got it translated and it is very
interesting and it not only deals with
crashes that are not well known in the
literature but It deals also with
um his interpretation of photos taken
from rovers which we've sent to Mars uh
picking out signs of intelligent life.
And it speaks also about uh as I say
these agreements between the Israelis,
the English, the Japanese, and one or
two other countries with the Galactic
Federation. Now the only problem is um
that we just don't know uh what his
source of information was and therefore
it's very difficult to evaluate what he
said. Um I spoke at the time.
>> Well presumably he would be the source
of information if you're that high up in
the
>> he was but then you want to know well
okay so were you briefed by um American
intelligence officials or counterparts
in uh NASA? How did you acquire this
information?
>> Yeah, because he he says some really out
there stuff. I'm combining
>> the press interview he did and his book,
but he says that an elliptical craft
that was found in 2000 BC was discovered
or sorry, it was dated to 2000 BC was
discovered in Comanche Point in the
Grand Canyon. And so, and there's all
these conspiracies about why, you know,
parts of the Grand Canyon are restricted
zones. And so, he sort of like
>> attempts at an answer at that. And then
uh we've had 30 UFO crashes to date. And
uh he says, "Yeah, we have agreements
with the Galactic Federation." And then
he talks about uh bases on Mars. Yes.
With humans and ETS,
we've flown to Mars. You've already
we've already been there,
>> right?
>> Um so I guess that throws back obviously
lots of questions. Um you know, well h
how is the uh you know, the reverse
engineer, how successful has the reverse
engineering program been? Are we in some
kind of agreement with some nonhuman
uh intelligence that will allow us to
use their craft? What is Navy Space
Command? And all these questions are of
course, you know, up in the air.
>> Yeah. And we can speculate about it. Um,
but I obviously I I I say in my book,
treat this with a little bit with
caution because unless we know the
mechanism by which he uh purports to
have acquired this information, we just
can't evaluate it.
>> I think that's right. I think that's
right with a lot of UFO research and I
was reading your book and you lend a lot
of credibility to the Majestic 12
documents which are these documents that
were sort of released in tranches from
the 80s to the '90s that described this
sort of elite military intelligence and
science committee under Truman and
Eisenhower that deal with the UFO issue.
And my understanding is that they were
released as kind of a counterintel
initiative under James Jesus Angleton
who is this longtime you know spook
Allan Dulles acolyte in the US who you
know professionally lied and liked to
throw people off the trail and that sort
of thing. And yet you note that there
are some things in those documents that
line up with real historical artifacts,
diary entries that came out years later.
Uh which is fascinating. Um, I'm
perfectly willing to subscribe to the
view that some of those documents might
not be genuine, but I am firmly of the
view that the vast majority of them are.
And first of all, let's just take the
argument that these were some
counterintelligence exercise by
Angleton. And there's another gentleman
that's mentioned who's still alive, a
certain admiral who I won't mention
perhaps on live who's supposed to have
been part of this exercise. Well, who's
that?
>> I was Bobby Inman is supposed to
>> part of that
>> allegedly. I mean, this is what people
say whether it's true or not.
>> Who says that?
>> Well, I've heard it from a number of
people and I'm not saying it's true for
a minute that that's that's a rumor that
has gone round,
>> but I I really don't buy it. Um, so
first of all, let's just look at this as
um a
counter inelligence exercise.
If Roswell happened, if a craft was
recovered, as I'm firmly convinced it
was at Corona, if it was then the
subject of a highly classified reverse
engineering program,
and that is your biggest secret, one of
the biggest uh secrets in the United
States, the last thing you are going to
do is to give credence to the discovery
of that craft and of the reverse
engineering programs that have been set
in train.
>> Maybe or maybe not.
>> Well, here can I can I sure give you my
counter argument? So, uh the 70s 60s and
70s saw peak distrust in the American
government. You have, you know, the
church committee, you have Watergate,
you have the Pentagon papers before, you
know, both of those things. And you just
have a lot of irreverence and distrust
of the American intelligence apparatus.
And so in the 80s, I almost think there
was like a deliberate strategy on behalf
of, you know, the CIA and sort of bodies
like that to flood the zone because they
realized they weren't seen as uh, you
know, good narr narrator, you know,
solid narrators anymore. And so what
they put out would inherently be
doubted. So if you actually put out the
truth or put out things that are
adjacent to the truth, you're sort of
inoculating the public against, you
know, actually believing it. Whereas if
some irreverent open- source person were
to preemptively put it out, then you
know people might actually believe it.
But I don't know. What do you What do
you think?
>> I still think you're going to protect
this. You're not going to But there's
there's other actually independent
evidence. So the Truman directive uh
which uh initiated MJ12
was um allegedly signed on the 24th of
September 1947.
And you can go to uh Truman's diary. You
can go to Forestl's diary. I don't think
Bush has one that's available. And
you'll see at 11:30 a.m. on that date,
the three met.
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You can go to Truman's diary. You can go
to Forestl's diary. I don't think Bush
has one that's available. And you'll see
at 11:30 a.m. on that date, the three
met.
>> Doesn't end there. Uh I looked at
Forestl's diary even further. Go one
week on to the 1st of October 1947.
And there is Foresterl uh meeting uh
with um uh Sir Henry Tisdell who is or
then was the chief scientific adviser to
the UK Ministry of Defense. So he and
Bush are meeting with Tisl one week
later
and there are then during the month of
October
further meetings with three other senior
British Air Force officers.
um Forestl, sometimes Eisenhower,
sometimes others. What then happens? A
Tisdel comes back to London. He sets up
in the Ministry of Defense a secret
flying saucer working party.
>> That working party a report is then
published, but only one copy. And it
says in the preface to that report, only
one copy of this report is being
published for Sir Henry Tisdell
>> following the lead from the Americans
that this subject should be given as
little publicity as possible.
>> And we know that that that's a fact. The
Tisl working UFO group
>> a few weeks later. That's wild. That's
really interesting. So So you have this
sort of
>> chain of events from Forestall to
Tisdall.
>> That's amazing.
>> Yeah. So I mean that that I think also I
think you've then got to look at the
detail. There's a lot of majestic
documents um which are memos, letters
that serve no counter intelligence
purpose. And you look at the personnel
involved in those memos, pe people like
uh James Lei, Richard Drain, who I've
looked at through the CIA reading room
to see who they were. And these guys
were very closely involved with
committees that were actually looking at
UFOs.
And uh James Lei actually received from
John McCone uh the director of CIA um an
award um uh really for um serving on a
project which uh which had um multi-
agency involvement and it it all of
these documents uh really tie in with
the the uh UFO uh enigma and you look at
the minutes of other meeting uh meetings
that they were concerned concerned with
as UAPs, UFO engagement in those minutes
and they just seem like the real guys.
And so I believe Dulles also his diary
came out, you know, only a few years ago
or something and there was an entry
there that was consistent with the
Majestic 12 document. Is that right?
>> I don't have that to mind immediately.
>> I Yeah, I believe so. Um, very
interesting. Yeah, Forestall's
fascinating. He was obviously, you know,
um, assistant secretary of the Navy and
then I think Secretary of the Navy and
then he ended up uh, Secretary of
Defense and I believe the Majestic 12
said he was killed over the UFO issue.
Yes. And I I've looked at that. By the
way, I should just add um that as far as
MJ12 is concerned, of course, you have
got other independent
corroboration. Um, for example, um,
you've got Eric Walker, who you
mentioned earlier, who was approached by
William Steman, and in a taped
conversation, I think it's taped, at
least of contemporaneous notes, he says,
"Yes, I know of MJ12. I've worked with
MJ12." Um, and you've also got uh, I
think it's Alonzo McDonald who confirmed
to Eric Davis recently uh, yes, that
MJ12 existed. Well, I believe Alonzo
McDonald was also supposed to be in
Jimmy Carter's uh brief on UFOs.
>> Yeah. Um but going back to um Foresterl
um I I that is again a a very
interesting adjunct to the MJ12 story
because uh he became
I would say slightly unstable and
certainly mentally exhausted and Truman
then dispensed with his services as
Secretary of Defense and as we know he
was admitted to Bethesda um Naval
Hospital And the day before his he was
held in isolation. Even his brother uh
had difficulty in seeing him. Uh his
priest Monsa Shehi who Forest very much
wanted to see would never gained access.
And his brother arranged for him to be
released after about 6 or 8 months. And
he was quite satisfied as was his wife
and son that he was in good health. And
the day before he was released, I think
the Saturday night, he was due to be
collected by his brother on the Sunday.
Um he was found um on a flat roof uh
below uh um having allegedly fallen out
of a window on the 19th floor, I think,
with a bathrobe cord tied around his
neck. That's the day before he was due
to be released. And so obviously the
question arises, well
>> anyways, midway through transcribing a
Sophocles poem. Yeah, correct.
>> Which like why would you stop midway
through your transcription and then jump
out of the window? And I think the bath
robe also part of it was like tied to
the radiator. Yes. In the bathroom,
which doesn't make sense.
>> Makes no sense as a way to kill
yourself.
>> Um there was a naval inquiry um which
was held behind closed doors. Uh because
it was a naval institution, there was no
uh inquest. Um, I think the broken glass
was found on the floor on a rug in his
room. Um, but they called no family
members and his brother was convinced uh
that his um uh he that Forestl was
murdered.
>> The official story, the cord slipped off
the radiator and he just plunges to his
death. Let's look a little more
realistically here. How difficult would
it be couple of big tough Navy guys or
big tough young guys grab him and throw
him the hell out the window? Do uh you
mention also the the office in the CIA
that is responsible for UFO inquiries.
Uh do do you want to mention that here?
>> Um well I mean there's the I mentioned a
number of offices actually in the CIA.
>> Yes.
>> And um one of them uh is the
counterpoliferation mission.
>> Um is that the one you had in mind?
>> I did but also office of global access
for global crash retrieval. But that's
the rename. Now the office of global
access has now been renamed and that
basically is an office uh which has
always existed as far as I understand it
and its purpose is to either collect uh
items from uh difficult jurisdictions or
to drop people or items in difficult
jurisdictions. and therefore I think it
was um an existing facility which was
lent to the purpose of crash retrievals.
Now there are two I think very clear
examples or credible examples of that
office going into work. Um one of course
we most of us know about the case of um
Vina
>> Mhm. and the crash of a uh UAP there and
the recovery of at least one live alien
and an American plane landed at
Compinas.
>> Mhm.
>> And collected uh the craft and the
alien. Um now I think there are moves of
foot at the moment to try to recover the
airport logs in relation to that
airport. Um, but that seems almost
certainly to have been an event that
occurred. There is so much evidence now
that has been uncovered.
>> Yeah, I interviewed the Brazilian
defense minister and he was like, "Yeah,
I think this happened."
>> Of course, I believe him. Why wouldn't
I?
>> Believing that a phenomenon like this
exists. Of course, the testimony of
totally credible witnesses. Same goes
for the doctor and the military
officers. They had no reason to make it
up. And there we have 15 to 20 witnesses
who are alive today. We have we've
triangulated the fight flight path of
the UFO itself. James Fox has done an
amazing job documenting all this stuff
in moment of contact.
>> And there's you know the chief
neurosurgeon of Barginia uh says he was
face to face with the alien being for 4
minutes. If you go to the hospital
Regian Alice where the being was treated
and you say is this the you know
hospital that treated the being? They
say yes this is this is that hospital.
And so it's one of these things that's
very hard to explain away, especially at
a in a town of 130,000 people that
wasn't like mired in Americana UFO lore,
you know, like they didn't have any
priors to bias them towards
hallucinating something like this. And
indeed, I mean, uh, one of the, uh,
emergency rescue staff actually died
and, um, I can't remember his name at
the moment.
>> Marco Sherezi.
>> Yes. and they did um uh uh an autopsy
report on him and I think it discovered
the um form of um yeah bacteria that was
way too strong. Yeah,
>> it was anomalously strong. And uh even
the
guy who was uh the president of the
actual autopsy company, the provider
IPD, I think his name is Janini, he's on
record saying, "Yeah, the nail of the ET
penetrated the skin of Sherezi and
that's what ended up killing him." And
he was telling his whole family, his
family believes that he died because he
he apprehended this ET being and it it
poked him or whatever and it
accidentally sort of killed him. Uh, so
yeah, there's so much corroboration for
that. It's just fascinating. And I
actually interviewed the guy
>> who did the autopsy. Um, yeah, Arando
Fortunado and he was like, "Yeah, I
think this is totally legit."
>> The infection he had is extremely rare,
not impossible.
A scratch or some sort of contact with
an extraterrestrial
shouldn't be ruled out.
>> So, that's one case. Y and then there's
another case which depends very much on
the word of the individual but he's very
compelling
>> uh which is the case of Jonathan Wagant
in Peru where he was sent he was on on
um duty in in Peru at at a a a station
and was sent to the scene of what they
understood to be a downed aircraft and
of course it was discovered um a
teardropshaped object and felt the
presence of the occupant
And no sooner had he arrived there, it
was clearly no craft he'd ever seen. Um
but um soldiers in fatigues arrive, as
do the Department of Energy, he is um
taken under arrest, threatened,
ultimately released. But I think very
likely uh and I believe his evidence is
credible. That is another instance of a
craft being covered this recovered this
time from Peru via the same process.
Yeah, I think he was a marine and it was
operation laser strike and he saw this
egg-shaped craft in the side of this
mountain and then an arm was hanging out
and he and he walked up to it and he he
felt like this telepathic connection
with the beings and a lot of pain and
which is a common sort of trope
>> and yeah he was he was I think then
>> uh really kind of intimidated and I
think he's never been kind of mentally
the same since
>> I felt this presence that it's real
strange. I guess it was almost like I
think they were trying to communicate
with me like I guess telepathically.
It's it's like basically sitting in your
car and turn on like a AM station, you
know, it's just white noise and just
turning up really high.
>> And my understanding is that um so that
obviously I I'm not sure this is done
obviously presumably by arrangement with
those particular governments. It's not
landing and taking a craft although I
believe they've done that. Uh this is
obviously by negotiation. Either they're
paid or or they get access to
information later. I don't know. But I
think um many countries and I suspect
this is true of Five Eyes uh defer now
to the American experience and ability
to deal with the many problems that
surround crashed craft and possibly
biologics. And my understanding is that
in the five eyes countries um there will
be special forces of those countries but
who work under American command and
we'll go and isolate an area and wait
for the Americans to come in to pick it
up.
>> How does this subject gain sort of
broader appeal? Because when you talk
about this stuff on the one hand it
seems like the most important thing
ever. You're like oh my god there's like
technology that's far more advanced than
us that's in the hands of the
government. They're not letting it out.
there's also, you know, possibly species
beyond beyond just mankind. And then on
the other hand, uh it feels kind of
goofy. Yeah. It's like what what are you
talking about? you know, and it feels
sort of like uh divorced from normal
geopolitical discussions like if you're
talking about like the straight of
Hormuz that has real implications for
you know oil prices globally and stuff
and this is very difficult because the
the you know the the traditional
question do you believe in UFOs as it
were so far beyond that and now when you
have this discussion you have got to
deal with concepts that are so I was
going to use the word alien but let's
use another word that are so um bizarre
to most people and you're talking about
crashed craft. I think it's a little
easier to deal with those because of
David Grush's live testimony to Congress
and because people have come forward
from the intelligence um agencies since
just to say yes uh we are in possession
of crash craft. And I think it is an
open secret now that these special
access projects exist in the United
States with Loheed Martin, with
Northrock Grman, with Rathon that Loheed
wanted to transfer a craft to Bigalow
Aerospace. All of these things now have
I would say in the last three years come
within just about uh the terms of
acceptability in normal conversation.
But then of course they're pushed even
further because you'll note from David
Gish's interview, we're now talking
about firefights with um uh you know um
uh different species,
>> US personnel started, you know, getting
hurt and dying and so
>> so US personnel was killed by these
reptilians.
>> Yeah. My whole purpose in writing the
book is that I really wanted to uh have
an informed debate and based on reliable
evidence and to involve academia
and um I think that is absolutely
fundamental because this process of um
degrading this subject since the 1940s
since Truman's directive has been so
successful that you you know, very
intelligent people like I do who have no
knowledge of this. They don't have a no
reading list. They don't know where to
go and there's plenty of good material
to read. There's no syllabus or course
to get hold of or sign up to. So, we do
need to widen um this if we're going to
actually, you know, permeate society and
get some proper disclosure through um
open debate. But the discussion is
getting wilder. And I'm not saying it's
not true. Uh I suspect and I think David
Gush by the way is a very credible
witness but we are getting wilder.
>> Oh yeah. I mean on Joe Rogan he said
that he saw a video of Nordic beings,
aliens that looked like bluish in, you
know, die and and in this sort of
firefight or whatever and then he saw
this sort of fight between gray aliens
and reptilians
>> and and reptilians. and the reptilians
are in these tic tac crafts and it is
very wild. It's like uh okay, I want to
I want to see the evidence on that. It's
pretty pretty gnarly. But then you
compare that to his background and I
mean David Gres while he was in in
government was handling the presidential
daily brief. So what the president saw
every day you know that that was his job
to handle um you know he was very high
up in you know national geospatial
agency. He was very, you know, well
thought of by a lot of colleagues like,
you know, Carl Nell, who who helped set
up Army Futures Command, which is, you
know, their their kind of all of their
modernization efforts was in, you know,
Army Futures. Um, so this is not like
some guy who's, you know, honorable
discharge, you know, wacky, like, you
know, left government and, you know,
then took a bunch of drugs or something
and started making stuff up. He's uh
he's even, you know, has I think is on
the spectrum somewhat and he has, you
know, I think the the mildest form of of
of autism. Uh but he is really just
detail oriented and has, you know, so
many like prosaically is actually very
very intelligent when it comes to just
normal, you know, conventional programs
and technology and science and very high
IQ. Sir,
>> and I think his uh recent interview um
really has opened up another subject and
we're talking about I mean undersea
underwater bases is something which has
been talked about for a long time and
everybody has spoken about a base
possibly off Santa Catalina Island
because so many craft have come out of
the water and gone back. He's talked
about others and as you will recall in
the interview um you know the size of
city blocks. Now once you t start
talking on that basis and craft coming
and going at huge bases under the water
if that's right and you're talking about
also the number of orbs that we're
seeing um you know um around the globe
you're talking about the work of uh Dr.
Beatric Villa Royale in thousands of uh
anomalous small objects which are uh
reflective and um appear the day before
and on the day of significant events
26,000 miles in space.
>> Because these flashes that we see and
these short flashes and not streaks,
they're associated with things that are
extremely flat and extremely reflective.
>> Wow. like mirrors.
>> We are really now not just talking about
visitors um or people that may coexist
in some secret society. We are talking
about an operation on a pretty grand
scale and this becomes even more
alarming, I think.
>> Yeah. Or maybe it's just been going on
for a long time and we're now waking up
to it. Like the the rest of the
population is sort of waking up to it.
>> Well, we're waking up to it, but it's
it's on a scale I don't think many
people envisaged.
>> Yeah. I mean, my bias would be it's not
like a it's not like a new thing that's
happening. It's been going on for
forever. Absolutely. We're sort of it's
being revealed, but speaking of very
credible people who are into UFOs that
you've, I believe, had firsthand
interactions with. Uh tell me about Paul
Helier, the former Canadian defense
minister. Um yeah, I mean I've I've so
as as as uh I I said I I've been
involved in this um since uh well late
late60s early 1970s
and I've been very privileged to meet a
lot of the brave pioneers let's put it
that way in our subject. Uh Paul Helia
was fascinating. He was um minister of
defense of Canada and by the way I spoke
to him just before he died in relation
to Esed's claim and he thought the
Americans would be pretty if I may say
so pissed off obviously but he didn't
believe the Galactic Federation that
didn't quite ring true to him but
equally going back I mean uh meeting
people like John Keel
um John Mack
um Stanton Freriedman has been a
fantastic IC privilege for me and to see
how this subject has progressed, how the
viewpoint about the subject has just
grown from what was in the 70s regarded
as an entirely uh extra ter
extraterrestrial
uh phenomenon to John Ke saying, "Well,
hang on a minute. This isn't
extraterrestrial. This is something that
is uh trying to uh fool us and it's
something that is uh operating at a
different frequency to us uh and it is
sending false signs in the sky uh to
Stanton of course who then discovered I
would say he discovered Roswell although
um he he certainly was one of those that
discovered Roswell to people like John
Mack who then saw the reality of the
abduction phenomenon which nobody knew
what it was but M you know an
experienced professor of psychiatry came
to the conclusion these were real
experiences. So all of these things um
are you know slow additives and open our
understanding to um greater levels.
>> Yeah. You also interacted with Douglas
Caddy
>> who was uh Howard Hunt's lawyer. Howard
Hunt being this famous CIA spy who was
involved in Watergate and you know a lot
of other scandals. uh was not, you know,
uh didn't have the best reputation among
the public. But apparently there was
this exchange with Caddy and Howard Hunt
about JFK's assassination having to do
with
>> that remark has been published before,
but um uh as you say, uh Caddy was
originally Hunt's lawyer and he was the
original lawyer for the Watergate
burglars, but um a judge ordered him to
disclose where he got his instructions
and he said, "No, hang on a minute.
that's legally privileged. So he was in
fact um uh convicted of contempt and had
to step out. But Howard Hunt remained
very grateful to Douglas. And just
before Howard Hunt went to serve his
prison sentence at Eglund Air Force
Base, he took Douglas um out for dinner.
And obviously Douglas was very keen to
know, well, how why'd you break into the
Watergate building, you know, and uh uh
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Please support our show and tell them we
sent you. What was this all about? Why
was and why was Kennedy killed? And um
he then told them that there was a
reason that the they thought the Cubans
had documents relating to Kennedy's
assassination and that Kennedy was
killed because she's about to reveal the
alien presence. Now this is the very I
think about 1975.
So immediately you have to think well
hang on what evidence was there in those
days uh that Kennedy was uh knew about
aliens so that he could reveal it uh
killed. So Howard Hunt was a CIA
operative. Are you saying that the CIA
uh he knows the motive because of his
CIA background? The CIA was involved in
the deaths. And funny enough, the more
>> the CIA was to me was definitely
involved.
>> Oh, there's no question. There's no
question. And I drilled down into that.
Um the Rockefeller Commission actually
suspected it but didn't find evidence.
But there's clear evidence actually that
Hunt was involved. And there's clear
evidence that a CIA contractor called
John Sturgis was involved. And I've
spoken to the police officer in the
sixth precinct who went to arrest him uh
for threatening the life of Marita
Lorent who said that he and Hunt were
involved. And he confessed um um uh um
Sturgis confessed to this police officer
that he in fact had been one of the
gunmen in Dallas. And funny enough, a
jury who sat to hear a liel action which
Hunt brought against a newspaper called
Liberty Lobby for saying he was involved
found against Hunt and the jury foreman
who was interviewed outside afterwards
said, "Well, why'd you find that?" She
said, "Well, because the CIA killed
Kennedy and Hunt was involved." So, I
mean, there's a whole track record of
this and evidence and I'm quite
convinced the CIA killed Kennedy. I
think it is a very strong case uh that
this was to do with a UFO subject.
>> What's what's the case? Because the
Kennedy thing almost feels like this
roar shock test where it's like the you
know anti-s Soviet anti-communists say
it was the Soviets or the Cubans. You
know, some people say it was the mob.
You know, anti-Israel people say that,
you know, it's like made them a
registered foreign agent or something.
And then you have, you know, uh the UFO
people saying that it's it's about UFOs.
So what what concrete evidence?
You're absolutely right. Um was it the
Cubans? Was it the mafia? But um I think
uh that uh it's rooted in this fact that
Kennedy
um
uh was obviously alarmed and perturbed
by uh the uh Bay of Pigs and he wanted
to ensure that there was no possibility
of a UAP being misidentified as an
incoming ballistic missile. And to
achieve that, there had to be some form
of association or agreement with the
Russians uh on this which would involve
sharing information about um UAPs.
Now we know that that is very likely
true and that was his view. Uh because
in 1971 surprisingly
um we there was rel we we know that
there was an agreement between Russia
and the United States um about this
subject. You know if you uh see a UAP
please let us know. You know don't uh
mis misconstrue it as a as a as a
missile. Yeah. if it set sets off your
detection systems, let us know straight
away because you know we've got a
hotline for this. So I I think that
agreement reflects backwards on
Kennedy's concerns in the uh early 60s
about this issue and he wanted uh a
sharing of information and you got to
remember that the CIA had
>> is there any evidence he wanted that it
>> I think there is I think there are those
memos to um Angleton and Dulles in 1961
and 1963 in which he's calling for that
and indeed to NASA asking them to CIA to
share with NASA more information about
this.
>> Yeah. So if you anyone can look up right
now the Salt One treaty, there is
literally language between you know the
US and the Soviets in 1971 saying um you
know we have to coordinate on unknowns
in our airspace to make sure that you
know uh false alarms don't trigger some
global destructive you know thing.
There's a treaty that we've signed with
the Russians which basically assures
them that we will consult on UAPs on
UFOs. I believe there's also a letter
but of kind of unknown provenence
between uh JFK and John McCone who was
acting CIA director after he file fire
fired Dulles and he's saying um you know
yeah we need to coordinate we need to
talk to NASA and get all the data from
NASA about unknowns and then coordinate
with the Soviets on this and to me that
is like the most important letter to
figure out whether that is real because
it's dated 111263
which is 10 days before he was
assassinated
>> correct You're right. Yes, dollars have
gone by then.
>> Yeah.
>> Exactly. So if that if that was real,
>> that is just a
>> massive. And then if it's not real, like
you know that we should we should
totally discount that and figure out
what the motive for constructing
something like that was.
>> Um
>> but yeah, it's really fascinating.
>> I've also looked actually at the
original I don't know how many people
have of the uh burned memo
>> and I know that is a highly contested
document quite rightly so. The burn memo
is is a memo which one of the so-called
counter intelligence officers who was
leaking documents allegedly saved from
the flames after Kennedy's uh death. Um
and it came from Angleton's safes
allegedly because Angleton didn't put
documents into the CIA registry system.
He tended to have a system of about 40
or more private safes which had to be
blown after his death and they had to be
gone through. And we do know by the way
from official documentation which Mccon
refers to that some of those documents
referred to Kenn to the Kennedy
assassination. But this particular
document um is is a memo from uh MJ1 to
some of the other members of MJ12.
And it it is basically saying that look
uh um Kennedy used his code name Lancer
is interfering too much in our
activities and you know we need to do
something about it.
>> Really?
>> Yeah.
>> That's wild.
>> Well, not in those words. I'm
paraphrasing, but it it is to that
effect. It's clearly to that effect.
>> And um I've looked at the original. It
it's a a um on paper. It's got a
watermark. Um the woods um Robert and
Ryan had it uh examined I think by
Speckin Laboratory. Uh it certainly is
paper of that period. The inks are paper
of that period. Um and um uh it you know
primmaacci although we haven't got a CIA
control sample um with a watermark it
looks primapaci to be a potentially
genuine document.
>> What was interacting with Stanton
Freriedman like you know he's seen as
this sort of godfather of UFO research
and very just hard-headed. He was um a
remarkable guy actually and uh uh so I
had number of dinners with Stanton and
indeed I've got a letter which he wrote
to me very soon after um he discovered
um he'd had this conversation about
Roswell and very soon after he got um I
think one of the first majestic some of
the first early majestic documents in
which he says look you know keep this to
yourself but this looks as though it's
going to be big and he was um very
committed um he left his job um uh um uh
to pursue really the EUO uh phenomenon
and he really toured the United States
and some other countries speaking on
this subject. So I don't know
financially how he was maintaining
himself but he was extremely committed
um and uh you know wrote um huge amounts
about the subject traveled extensively
and the kind of person who was uh an
early pioneer of this subject that you
uh really rarely find. He he life and
soul he was committed to finding out
more about this and Roswell obviously
became a um a major part of his life.
>> The subject of flying saucers represents
a kind of cosmic Watergate. That is to
say some few people in the governments
of the United States, Canada, and
doubtedly many other countries have
known since July 1947
that some UFOs are extraterrestrial
spacecraft.
>> Yeah. Yeah. And he was a nuclear
engineer at Westinghouse prior. So
definitely not somebody you could say
was dumb or you know,
>> not at all. Uh very smart guy
>> and liked to debunk things too. Liked to
kind of separate the wheat from the
chaff. Was not one of these sort of
>> everything is everything believer types.
Um what about John Mack? So John Mack
was the
>> head of the Harvard psychiatry
department. Yeah.
>> And uh was a Pulitzer Prizewinning
journalist as well. He'd written a
biography of uh Te Lawrence called The
Prince of Disorder. Yes.
>> And um just a really interesting kind of
polymathic guy and he got into alien
abductions at the end of his life and
you were able to meet him as well.
>> Yes. So he was in London uh couple of
times. In fact, sadly he he was killed
in London in a uh in on a road accident
crossing the road. Uh John was um a um
again uh very serious very committed to
this subject. I remember I haven't
actually actually shared this
experience. Um I am not an experiencer
by the way. I have not uh seen a craft.
Um and um you know I'm I'm really uh
base my uh
knowledge of this subject on other
people's experiences and on evidence try
to evaluate that totally independently.
But I did have um a memory um which is
rather bizarre and it's not one I dwell
on because I don't want it to interfere
with my um
evaluation of the evidence. But I I did
have a memory which appears to me to be
a meal alarmingly I don't I that's this
is what it appears to me to be a memory
before I was born of seeing or being uh
in a place I'm not quite sure where it
was and uh seeing a craft return and
speaking to people who had come off that
craft. I wasn't allowed to go on it and
asking how people were and they on earth
people told me it's fine. And then I had
two beings who showed me my parents and
told me I was um had to be born again. I
wasn't very keen on that idea, but I was
told I had to.
>> When you say born again, it was
>> I was had to go back and I was shown my
parents and I was told I had to go back.
>> But it was as if you were leaving Earth.
>> No, I was somewhere in a space um which
seemed very nice and I really didn't
want to leave that space, but I was told
that I had to come back.
>> Why back though? cuz presumably you had
lived some life on earth already
>> before.
>> But all I'm saying is that this is uh an
experience I had which has stayed with
me um from and I have quite a strong
recall of the first 48 hours of my life.
Um
>> that's remarkable.
>> It is remarkable. And then as as the
plug was pulled, I I'm not ascribing
anything to this except it's a memory,
but it's something I discussed with John
Mack and um uh he was interested in it
and we talked at length about it
actually.
>> What what did the beings look like?
>> I didn't see them.
>> They were behind me.
>> And what did their presence sort of feel
like to you?
>> Presence was you you have no choice. Uh
sorry. You know,
>> did you sense what their relationship
was to you?
>> No.
And why did you think that they thought
you had to go back? Was it like they
were because I was just told my parents
were expecting me and I had to go? Now
that that's rather bizarre. But if and I
don't actually extrapolate from this
experience because I don't want to. It's
not something it's something I put in a
in in a a separate area and leave there
and ponder about. But if you were to
extrapolate anything from it and you
were to consider let's say for a minute
that um I did have a communication with
a craft coming back and being people on
it who had come back to earth to check
on things then I guess that might lead
you to a conclusion that this phenomenon
is linked to the life and death cycle.
>> Do you think it might be?
>> U actually I do but independently of
that I do. Yes, it could be, but that
could be some a personal experience
which for me might give some
personal credence to it.
>> I've got no evidence for that. But I do
think yes that um this phenomenon is
part of a much bigger um um
subject uh existence environment in
which it encompasses life and death as
well. What do you think the link is
between UFOs and life and death?
>> Um, well, I mean, if you remember that,
and I don't know whether this is true,
and I I'm only repeating what many uh
abductees have been told, you know, that
your body is a a receptacle for the soul
and nothing more. And uh it may be that
um you know that you know it is the
constant uh redistribution of souls in
different uh stages and in different um
times and that that has that that that
redistribution has a purpose and uh we
have a number of us have to come back
with your soul into this physical body.
M and so UFOs themselves would be like a
control mechanism possibly, but I I'm
not I obviously there's none nothing
like this is in the book. You asked me
about John Mack and that pro prompts me
to a memory of a discussion I've had and
I don't want to base and I don't base
anything on that because
>> have you thought of getting a hypnotic
regression and going deeper into the
>> I haven't done that actually. No, I
think that would be interesting. I think
I should. Yeah.
>> I mean the fact that you remember it so
vividly is fascinating.
>> I do. Yeah. And I remember actually
something else I do remember is um being
in my room as a child and a woman a
woman's voice loudly um recounting the
Lord's Prayer
>> in my bedroom. I must have been four
years old and I thought, "Oh, uh I can
hear the uh little girl down the street
saying her prayers." Of course, I
couldn't because that was way down the
street. And again, you know, if you were
to try to extrapolate something from
that, maybe um uh if you link that to
what people say is, well, you know, if
you are in the presence of a being and
you want to get rid of it, you know,
mention the Lord's name or something,
maybe that was a protection. I don't
know. I think everybody has experiences.
And the odd thing about this uh
phenomenon is you speak to people and a
large number of people have an
experience. Maybe similar to what I've
said, maybe they've seen a craft, um
maybe they've seen orbs, but a
surprising number of people have got
some experience to tell. Yeah, I I would
say go even further and say they've
either have an experience or a bunch of
synchronicities or some autobiographical
reason as to do their research. And
oftentimes people who get into these
topics because of the stigma of the
topic, they have to say things like,
"Oh, well, you know, I've never tried
this myself or I've never had any of
these experiences or whatever." And it's
it's just um humans are irrational.
We're all irrational. Even, you know,
accountants are or whatever. and you're
you like you get into things but due to
your own idiosyncratic personal reasons
and there's it's impossible to sort of
separate that entirely from some
objective analysis.
>> Absolutely. That's fascinating. You know
what it makes me think of when you
you're you're like I'm choosing my
parents and I have to go back and you
have these beings is this sort of uh you
know Plato's myth of air where you
experience you know this sort of the
life and death cycle is uh you know you
have anesis where you you have your you
have your soul self but your soul self
is sort of dipped into a body and you
forget your your former primordial soul
self and Plato himself actually went
through rituals you know the alleinian
mystery rituals which uh you know where
he it's it's called nois where you you
gain knowledge of your primordial soul
self but there's something about um you
know entering down into into earth this
sort of fall of man where you you forget
what you were but maybe you got you
remember a little glimmer of of what you
were
>> I do it's just always been with me and
um that's why I think it's a memory it's
certainly not a dream which you forget
it's a it's a vivid I think it's a
memory That's fascinating. Do you think
it's a coincidence that you remember
that and that you're interested in UFOs?
Well, you know, funny enough, um uh
I think there's a a lot of people may
maybe um we are all led possibility
maybe we are all led into this by
various different devices and um Robert
Hastings for example and uh I can't
remember the name of the book but he's
written a book actually which he was
very reluctant to write um
>> yeah it's called confessions
>> called confessions and
>> he is a UFO journalist who wrote a book
called UFOs and nukes which outlines the
correlation between UFOs and nuclear
weapons. But he does describe
um experiences which he has had from a
child onwards and he comes to the
conclusion uh I'm not sure it's a
conclusion but he he let's say a
provisional conclusion that um maybe
those experiences
uh were instrumental in leading him to
write this critical book on neuvos and
nukes
>> and that he was led that this was all
part of the process. Well, that's the
what's so weird about this topic is the
deeper you go, it's you it's like a
hydra. You cut off the head, you get
five in its place. So like um I always,
you know, if I have a, you know, famous
skeptics on the show like Michael
Shurmer or something, I'll bring up
Robert Hastings book UFOs and Nukes
because I think it's essentially a
database in a book. It's, you know, all
these guys, 167 of them, I think now
closer to 170, who are, you know, often
they have secret clearance, sometimes
top secret clearance. Uh, in certain
cases, they're queue cleared and they
have, you know, all sorts of access when
it comes, you know, and they're guarding
our our nuclear weapons and um, you
know, um, their their radar operators,
their security personnel, and they all
see tic tac, saucers, orbs, things
flying around these nuclear sites.
sometimes tampering with the nukes
themselves and we have documentation of
the tampering of the nukes. Sometimes we
have, you know, actual uh, you know,
radar associated and it's just too much
data to totally dismiss and say it's
you're talking about inherently the most
credible type of witness because these
guys are all on the um, personal
reliability program where they have to
report if they're taking ibuprofen
because they're guarding the crown
jewels of defense. So, you can't write
that off. In this book, I've identified
13 incidents.
>> Oh, really?
>> Yes. Where
uh UFOs have flown over
nuclear weapons storage facilities
or have
>> actually shut down missiles.
Um and those are identified in here with
witness names. But at each time, again,
there was no damage done to the weapon
systems.
Mhm.
>> Uh they were trying to send us a message
and what could that message be? But get
rid of these damn things.
>> And then what's wild is you go deeper
into Robert Hastings and he writes this
book called Confessions. And he is sort
of, you know, uh following these
synchronicities and and has had all
these trippy autobiographical
experiences that have led him to cover
this stuff. And I think it's impossible
to to separate. And it's almost like you
have a world where this stuff doesn't
really exist or it's like epistemically
closed off to it and then you have a
world where it's sort of it's really
it's like infused with a ton of meaning
>> and I think the UFOs are deal with
meaning a lot. You know, Carl Young
wrote a book called Flying Saucers, and
it's all about UFOs, this Sanskrit, you
know, um, symbol of psychic
completeness, and it's like you're
you're like you're chasing this like,
you know, like um kind of hierophony
revelation sort of thing, and it never
quite comes, but it drip feeds you, and
you you sort of run after it. Yeah. And
of course, you're right. I mean, look at
the credentials of those people. I think
uh Marco Rubio said the same thing. You
know that
>> people think about space aliens. For me
is there's stuff flying over military
installations and no one knows what it
is and it isn't ours. So for me that's
logical. You want to know what it is. I
It's common sense, right? Stuff's flying
over the top of your most sensitive
installations and it's not ours and no
one knows whose it is. You should find
out what it is and tell us. you know,
we've got these people that are uh so we
trust them and uh you know, they've gone
through so many checks and yet we're
just you know, they're evidence we're
we're not giving credence to. We have to
>> Yeah. He he'll say to this day as
Secretary of State, what's one
conspiracy you believe? He says, I think
there are things flying in our airspace
that we can't explain. And you know,
he's obviously he's sort of driving
American foreign policy right now. He's
definitely a real a real guy. And so I
think when people say, "Oh, it's a
sci-op or something." That to me is even
crazier than just admitting that it's
real in some ways cuz it's the most it's
the most charismatic scop by like
multiple standard deviations, which
means it's probably not a scop like like
between UFOs and Bigfoot, it's just such
a massive drop off. You don't see
anybody in the executive branch talking
about Bigfoot. And um so what is that? I
I don't know. Um, and then why? I mean,
I think an important meta question is
why post 2017 in this New York Times
article taking UFOs seriously, revealing
government programs around them, why has
have we just entered this sort of, you
know, craziness period where everyone's
talking about this topic and it's sort
of it is it is it has become much bigger
because I think people probably have
always been uh inherently interested in
the subject But there's been no real
validation for that belief. And uh
everything seems to have been um a red
flag. And you can go back for example to
the Condan Committee and one of the
principal paragraphs in the Condan
Committee was not only is there nothing
to this of course the committee that in
1969 reported and stopped uh closed down
Blue Book and the USAF uh um uh
investigation into UFOs publicly. And he
said look um it was exhorting teachers
to say do not let your students read
books about UFOs. Give them no credit.
um you know pass them on to astronomy
and um there's always been a
diversionary practice but I think you
can see starting in 217 the New York
Times taking it seriously and I really
would rate highly as a watershed moment
David Gush's testimony I think that's
fundamental and uh yes I think uh people
now have got a license uh to discuss
this uh without you know being regarded
as Crazy. Yeah. It's really wild how
almost all of the like super anti-UFO
spokespeople over the last 70 years have
been sort of proven to have a vested
interest in debunking
>> this stuff. So, I'll give you an
example. You just mentioned Edward
Condan. Condan wrote um I believe the
first English textbook on quantum
mechanics and he studied at Gotten with
Oppenheimer uh in the 20s and so they
were long close confidants. He even
helped pick Los Alamos as a site of the
Manhattic Manhattan project and he uh
was actually you know part of a lot of
civilian open sourcing efforts of
nuclear science and then he there's this
sort of kangaroo court with him and
Oenheimer where he uses his he loses his
uh Q clearance he gets stripped of his Q
clearance and that's done by a guy named
Gordon Gray who's rumored to be part of
the Majestic 12. So already you have
this sort of somebody who seems like
he's clued into the UFO issue stripping
the Q clearance from this guy who's a a
nuclear insider and then there's this
guy Guy Hodddle who's this FBI field
agent who's doing all sorts of research
on Condan in the background in in an
attempt to sort of blackmail him and
that he finds out that Condan was sort
of you know hanging out with socialists
and Berkeley or whatever. This is during
the Red Scare, you know, in the, you
know, in his in his 20s or something.
And they they create this entire dossier
on uh Condan. And then they they give
him his Q clearance back. And he's even
in an interview. He's like, I you know,
they just I don't really know why they
gave me my Q clearance back. It's like
they just they just came to me one day.
Um, and uh, I believe Don Menzel, who's
another MJ12 member, his underscy, a guy
named Lou Branscom, hands him his Q
clearance back and then he's he's sort
of tasked with doing this hit job
against UFOs. And so, you have to ask,
was he sort of blackmailed by Guy
Hodddle to like, you know, stigmatize
the entire issue? And the reason I think
he might have been is Hodddle actually
is responsible for the most viewed
document on the FBI's website and it's
about UFO crash retrievals. The memos
all of two paragraphs. Agent Guy Huddle,
then head of the FBI's Washington field
office, writes that an Air Force
investigator stated that three so-called
flying saucers had been recovered in New
Mexico. They were described as being
circular in shape with raised centers
approximately 50 ft in diameter. Not
only that, each one was occupied by
three bodies of human shape, but only 3
ft tall, dressed in metallic cloth of a
very fine texture. Each body was
bandaged in a manner similar to the
blackout suits used by speed flyers and
test pilots.
>> That's the one to Hoover.
>> Exactly. And it talks about an Air Force
staff guy literally coming into contact
with a, you know, crew of a of a UFO,
you know, presumably nonhuman
intelligence. uh and and and a a flying
saucer I think 50 ft wide and then
directed energy having taken this thing
out of the sky highowered radar which is
it seems like there's a lot to that with
modern testimonies like Jake Barber but
even going back then like you know Frank
Scully and and and and the Aztec crash
and so you have this very clear picture
with like historical debunkers where
like they have a clear vested interest
to stigmatize the thing and I don't know
it's it's really fascinating but we
still we get like we're we're so
brainwashed You know, we don't we're not
good at thinking for ourselves.
>> No. And Hottle, of course, was um uh
well, you mentioned it the the memo to
Hoover. And of course, Menzel was the
one who recommended Condan to chair that
committee.
>> Ah, that's interesting. There. Well,
there you go. Yeah. And that makes sense
that Lou Branscom at Harvard gives him
his Q clearance back because, you know,
he's working for Menzel and Menzel was
caught destroying astronomical plates.
>> Yes. uh uh uh in the 50s which is now
you have you know Beatatric Valale at
Stockholm University finding all sorts
of transient UFOs in the pal at the
Palomar Observatory which was you know
contemporaneous with the Harvard
observatory. So
>> and she discovered actually a very
interesting uh autobiography by a woman
called Dorene
>> Hofflight
>> uh who uh was studying or working with
Mensel and describes actually at the
time the destruction of the plates.
>> Yeah, it's fascinating. And then he he
like why would you if UFOs are fake why
would you care to write he he wrote all
these you know he wrote I think one or
two books that were
>> uh he wrote um certainly one book on uh
fly debunking flying sauces and Hillen
Cutter wrote congratulating him that
this should be the end of anybody
associating flying saucers with any
non-human intelligence. That's weird
that Hill Encoder wrote to him because
>> didn't Hillen Encoder then go on to join
NKAP which was the first civilian
research UFO group.
>> Y
>> that's interesting. He was also director
of the CIA during Roswell. So
>> it's very strange.
>> Yeah. And he would say like you know
it's all temperature inversions and
space trash and you know I I don't even
think you can say space trash at that
point because Sputnik hadn't gone up but
maybe weather anomalies or something.
And it's like, well, why would somebody
of your sort of stature even lend
yourself to this this this conversation
if it's if it's fake? Why would you
write like sort of a a debunking book on
the whole thing? I guess it was, you
know, big at the time. You had Roswell
and other things, but and he was very um
rude about the witnesses to the Father
Gill sighting in Papu New Guinea.
>> And he described them in the the uh New
Guineians who made witness statements in
very derogatory terms.
>> That's horrible. Yeah, very much
>> messed up. What do you what do you think
the agenda is of these beings? You talk
about this a little bit in your book and
>> well, of course, that is um a a very big
question and it's something which as I
understand as I said the counterp
proliferation mission is looks at um I
think you can you have to stand back
from things that we know. So um assuming
that uh abductions are real and of
course when you say agenda we're talking
about agendas.
>> Sure.
>> Because there are obviously different
sources of uh different non-human
intelligences.
>> Can you isolate those sources or can we
just say that there are factions?
>> I think all you can say is there are
factions and there may even be factions
within factions. I mean who how do we
know? But um certainly as far as the
abduction experiences go um then uh
obviously there seems to be uh an ab a
concern to gather um reproductive organs
and um uh matters of that kind. So
whether or not this is part of a
hybridization program, who knows? you'll
know John Ramirez, the CIA former um uh
officer has spoken about attending a
conference uh given by uh the CIA and
the archavist I can't remember his name
at the moment where he explained that um
there had been a
uh genome sequencing in which uh DNA
from biologics in the 1940s had been
compared with DNA from humans and they'd
found the presence of alien DNA or
non-human intelligence DNA in human DNA.
So what that tells you are they
>> well the fact that these beings might
even have DNA would presumably make them
of the same evolutionary chain as
exactly then he talks also about CIA
having uh active program looking at
hybridization. So maybe this is one
element. Then there are some rather dark
sides to this phenomenon which we
haven't talked about. But um there
clearly is appears to be a dark side to
this phenomenon.
>> How so?
>> Um well um there's not just evidence of
um
harm to human beings. For example, if
you take kalaras in Brazil,
uh there is obviously the human rights
issue in simply taking people uh in the
abduction process. Uh then there is the
issue of cattle mutilations.
Uh obviously a total lack of
concern for sensient creatures because
these the these cattle, not just cattle,
it's other animal animal species have
been horribly mutilated and they appear
because they've got broken legs or some
of them to have been dropped from a
height. So doesn't appear to be there's
a great deal of respect for sensient
creatures or indeed for our human
rights. Um then of course there are a
whole host of paranormal phenomena which
are themselves nasty. Now whether those
are a part of a deliberate part of this
phenomenon or whether this phenomenon uh
simply triggers other phenomena and
allows them to happen. Um I don't know.
So, I I think we shouldn't necessarily
and should not um ascribe
benign intentions to these non-human
intelligences. They've done very little,
I think, to earn that uh label.
um when it comes to uh an agenda
I can't see that they have done anything
positive
uh really for us uh that we know of or
that we can uh certainly see and um uh
say yes um that's in our interests. Of
course there are some things that
they've done allegedly over nuclear
sites they've actually reduced radiation
levels on some occasions. Some people
apparently have been cured after an
abduction of some um disease which
they've suffered from. But by and large
I think we we need to be cautious.
>> So you have no reason to believe that
these are necessarily good.
>> I don't think we have any reason to
believe um any of them are necessarily
good? No.
>> Yeah. I mean it's it's probably Yeah.
AAM's razor would be it would be sort of
split between good good and bad and it's
hard to hard to sort of say but yes a
lot of people who have regular
abductions it feels like they want to be
sort of rid of it and it's actually very
traumatic and then actually if you look
at the Edgar Mitchell database on
abductions it's like over 50% have
pretty positive neutral to positive you
know um interactions so I think it's
hard to say I think it a lot of it has
to do with the person's it's also Think
about like psychedelic trips. How many
of them are so kind of gnarly in the
moment and then they're like excavating
some or shedding some bad
part of a person and then they come out
being like, oh, you know, that was
really hard, but I was grateful that I
experienced it. I don't know. I mean,
there are some encounters which appear
to have been positive. I mean, I do
remember the Valinsol case, for example.
If you remember the French farmer
Maurice Mass who found um a sphere uh in
his uh fields and they were picking his
lavender shoots and he had an encounter
with those beings. Now, Jacqu Valet met
Mass and uh Mass clearly had a a a
conversation telepathically with the
beings and it appears that they were uh
benign and that they told him quite a
lot about what they were doing and he
would never speak about it. I think
Jacques might know a little bit more but
Mass uh said it's you know I'm not going
to talk about it. So there are those
those some of those cases which appear
to be very genuine and Valencol is
regarded as being one of the best
landing cases in Europe uh where the
outcome and the encounter certainly well
for the beings and their
let's use the word conversation uh with
the witness. You mentioned Prince
Phillip's uh inquiry meeting with
somebody who he thought was an alien or
non-human intelligence who had
telepathic communication possibly with
him or could read his mind. Have you
ever met anybody who you think might be
non-human or have that ability? Um I
haven't. And um funny enough, Timothy
Good told me that he had and uh on a
number of occasions I think he met
somebody who did actually in a crowd
speak to him u more than one occasion,
but I haven't had that experience.
>> Interesting. what in what was transpired
in the Timothy Good communication
>> just that they wanted to let him know uh
and they appeared like humans and I
think one of the uh females in question
almost um sort of went like that as a
sort of pirouette uh but they wanted to
let him know through communication that
they were amongst us and um that they
could speak to him. M
>> it's accepted by some governments that
up to 50 or more species have been
coming here over the years and that's
not so outrageous. Essentially they're
all humanoid but there are variations.
>> Can we expect any sort of disclosure
coming out of the UK? You know um Helen
Macau I believe is this uh Bank of
England uh analyst who wrote this paper
about the implications for disclosure
for the modern economy. um you obviously
are very prominent and you write about
this topic. Do you think that we get any
disclosure here or is the UK going to
just sort of lag the United States? So I
don't think there's going to be any
disclosure from any European country uh
first and foremost because we do not
have a program or a policy on UAPs that
is public and our legislative assemblies
are not discussing it. Funny enough,
since I wrote the book, I have had um a
number of members of parliament contact
me. wanting to change that situation.
Um,
but I think uh our concern is very much
one of defense and I think that's true
of Europe and NATO as a whole. We're
concerned about our the the security of
our airspace. were concerned about the
security of our territorial waters. And
uh yes, I know many instances um even
last month of a sighting over London
where helicopters come out quite quickly
to surround the the object and see it
off or find out what it is. Um but we do
not have a policy and therefore uh first
of all there's nobody easily for anybody
here to go and make u disclosure to to
as an individual. I don't see the
government being at all motivated, able
or willing uh to engage in any
disclosure process. They will defer
entirely to the Americans. And that is
the way I think the Americans have
structured it in that they are the ones
with the history and the programs and
the experience and NATO is very much
subordinated to the Americans. As I say,
I mean, I if a craft crashed here, we
would deploy special forces, but it
would be Americans who would come and
collect it, and there must be some kind
of sharing process. And of course,
there's a five eyes caucus group, as we
know, that's met at the Pentagon, and
there's sharing between uh different
intelligence departments and signals
intelligence, of course. um disclosure
if it's going to come uh through any
government will be one of the
superpowers and I suppose from the
American point of view obviously the
real concern is is it going to be China
and is it going to be America I mean
many people say if it's not Trump then
no other president is going to get close
but um from across the pond my view is
I'm not sure that President Trump is
truly interested in actual disclosure I
think he is interested in doing
something no other president has done
and as long as there are these batches
of disclosure uh showing some kind of
anomalous phenomenon that will do and I
know people say the White House are
pressing but there are too many real
obstacles to that uh they'd have to
admit uh the legacy programs they'd have
to admit a catalog of crimes which would
not be easy to explain away
>> why why couldn't they just admit that
there are things in our airspace that we
can't you know
>> well I think they have that's already
disclosed there are things in the
airspace we not explain not by a sitting
president.
>> No, but um yeah, I mean I I I I'm not
sure that's that's that counts as
disclosure. That's there's anomalous
something anomalous here.
>> What counts as disclosure?
>> Good question. What does count as
disclosure? Um are you going to say um
there are uh nonhuman intelligences that
we know about who have visited us? Um,
are you going to say they're in our
airspace or on ourations? If you say
that, are you ready for the follow- on
questions? Okay. Well, who are they?
What's their agenda? Um, do they believe
in God? Um, uh, are we safe? Those are
questions that are very, very difficult
to answer. And the next question, how
long have you known it? How did you find
out? Um these questions are danger to
any administration because they will
involve a disclosure of a wealth of
crimes and I think that's apart from
obviously the um national security issue
of disclosing what we've possibly
discovered. Uh we cracked um
anti-gravity, got free energy, all of
those issues. So, I think I'm sorry to
say we're going to be in this situation
uh certainly in the forthcoming five
years, 10 years.
>> Well, on that somber note, you know,
very very lucid assessment, I really
appreciate your time, Jonathan. This has
been a lot of fun and hopefully
everybody goes and buys your book. I
think it's great and it's a really good
kind of survey level overview of a lot
of the stronger evidence over the last
70 years for UFOs. And it also does some
really good sense making around what
these things are which is very
important. Well, what I tried to do
actually is to put within one cover um
uh a it tries to serve two markets. One
is people who don't know much about this
and to explain the different uh angles
of a very complex phenomenon so you can
get hopefully an overview and secondly
throw in tip bits there which hopefully
is new information to a lot of people.
>> Absolutely. You did a great job of both.
And uh yeah, I appreciate your time.
This has been a lot of fun. Thanks for
uh for coming through in in London.
Special special edition of American
Alchemy.
>> Thanks so much, Jesse. And happy to have
you here. Thank you.
>> Awesome.