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[@ChrisWillx] The Dark Philosophy of Antinatalism - Alex O’Connor & Joe Folley

· 5 min read
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@ChrisWillx - "The Dark Philosophy of Antinatalism - Alex O’Connor & Joe Folley"

Link: https://youtu.be/QztUCKTGi9w

Short Summary​

This video discusses the philosophy of anti-natalism, particularly David Benatar's argument that it is morally wrong to procreate due to the inherent asymmetry between pleasure and pain, where the avoidance of potential suffering outweighs the potential for future pleasure. The speakers also explore the implications of this philosophy, including the difficulty in separating it from arguments for suicide and the evolutionary pressures against such pessimistic viewpoints.

Key Quotes​

Here are five quotes from the YouTube transcript that offer particularly valuable insights or interesting data points:

  1. "Before you exist the potential pleasure that you might experience if you come into existence doesn't matter one job it's literally irrelevant but the potential pain that you would avoid does matter." (This encapsulates Benatar's core asymmetry argument.)

  2. "Most people, says Benitar, like vastly underestimate the extent to which their lives are going terribly. They they like sort of in retrospect think, oh, you know, it's all good, but if you actually were to live through it again, you'd realize that at every moment it was going very badly." (This highlights Benatar's particularly bleak view of the human condition.)

  3. "It's cancerous. Exactly. Yeah. which in reverse is the explanation I think for the general optimism that sort of sort of just just only the optimistic throughout exactly to some degree. I mean there are people who are not optimists but they're not quite pessimistic enough to to fully commit to the bit as it were. Um and if they are then they select themselves out of the meme pool." (This provides an interesting perspective on how optimism might be naturally selected for.)

  4. "Another thing Kimu says is that the meaning of life is literally whatever is keeping you from killing yourself. Yes." (This is a concise and somewhat provocative definition of the meaning of life.)

  5. "There is but one serious philosophical question and that is suicide." (This is a quote attributed to Camus and is presented as a bold and direct statement that captures people's attention.)

Detailed Summary​

Okay, here's a detailed summary of the YouTube video transcript in bullet points:

Key Topic: David Benatar's Anti-Natalism and the Asymmetry Argument

  • Core Argument: David Benatar's anti-natalism, the view that it is morally wrong to procreate.
  • Asymmetry Argument: The central idea discussed is Benatar's "asymmetry argument" regarding pleasure and pain.
    • Before existence, potential pleasure is irrelevant, but potential pain is relevant and should be avoided.
    • Example: It's not bad that there's no pleasure on Mars, but it is good that there's no suffering.
    • Thought Experiment: Would you endure 5 minutes of the worst imaginable suffering for 5 minutes of the best possible bliss (or even a lifetime of bliss)? Most people would say no, suggesting suffering outweighs pleasure.
  • Rights-Based Approach: Benatar also argues from a rights perspective:
    • You can inflict suffering to prevent worse suffering, but not to bring about good, unconsensually. Bringing someone into existence inflicts suffering on them without their consent.
    • Analogy: You can break someone's arm to save their life, but not to give them encyclopedic philosophical knowledge if they didn't consent.
    • Some people have tried to sue their parents for wrongful birth based on this reasoning.

Anti-Natalism vs. Suicide

  • The Question: If life is so bad, why not just commit suicide?
  • Benatar's Response: Analogizes life to a movie you don't enjoy. You wouldn't walk out halfway through if it's not that bad, but you wish you hadn't started watching in the first place. You're already here, so you may as well continue.
  • Critique: The asymmetry argument, if strong enough to justify anti-natalism, might also justify suicide. The speaker is suspicious of this response.
  • Self-Selection and Evolutionary Deselection: Anti-natalist views are unlikely to become widespread because they are "cancerous" – those who truly believe them might be less likely to procreate, causing a selection against the view. Optimism is more prevalent because it promotes survival.

The Nature of Suffering and Pleasure

  • The Pollyanna Principle: The tendency to remember the good and downplay the bad, leading people to underestimate the suffering in their lives.
  • Benatar's View on Suffering: People drastically underestimate how bad their lives are and don't even notice the suffering.
  • Life contains more suffering than people realize.

Motivations and Perspectives

  • Camus & Suicide: Camus opened The Myth of Sisyphus with one serious philosophical question is suicide.
  • Meaning of Life: The meaning of life is "whatever is keeping you from killing yourself."
  • Emotional vs. Intellectual Engagement: People engage with the topic of the worthiness of life on an emotional level more than an intellectual level.
  • A direct approach when discussing suicide is more likely to be taken seriously than trying to soften it with a helpline at the beginning.

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  • The video is sponsored by AG1 and highlights the benefits of the product.