[@hubermanlab] Male Roles, Obligations and Options for Building a Fulfilling Life | Scott Galloway

Link: https://youtu.be/sQcS6f2qYoQ

Duration: 155 min

Short Summary

NYU professor Scott Galloway (62) joins Andrew Huberman for a wide-ranging discussion on the crisis facing young men, presenting statistics showing they are 4x more likely to suicide, 3x more likely to be addicted, and 12x more likely to be incarcerated. The conversation examines how Big Tech manipulates anger brain circuits, how education and wealth disparities transfer opportunity away from young people, and how the loss of male mentorship has left an entire generation isolated. Galloway proposes mandatory national service as a solution while presenting his framework for healthy masculinity centered on being a provider, protector, and procreator.

Key Quotes

1. "the way you destroy a society is to get the men and women to hate each other" (00:00:53)
2. "The goal is no because you're going to get nos." (00:00:22)
3. "Big tech is not your friend." (00:00:26)
4. "Men between the ages of 20 and 30 are spending less time outdoors, Andrew, than prison inmates." (00:01:04)
5. "a male from a self-esteem standpoint, from a sexual currency standpoint, from the esteem of the tribe or the society is going to be disproportionately evaluated based on your economic viability" (00:00:18)

Detailed Summary

Masculinity Framework and Self-Improvement

Scott Galloway presents a three-part framework for healthy masculinity centered on being a provider (achieving economic relevance), protector (developing skills to safeguard others), and procreator (channeling desire for relationships into motivation for self-improvement). He introduces Richard Reeves' concept of "surplus value"—that men should create more than they consume in tax revenue, social contribution, and love given to family and community.

• Galloway recommends young men adopt a "code" from religion, military, family, sports, or workplace to guide decision-making, noting his own first code came from Morgan Stanley and UCLA athletics.
• His practical self-improvement prescription includes working out at least three times per week, earning income outside the home, and volunteering with a group at least three times monthly—claiming adherence puts men in the top 8% of young men.
• Reeves' aspirational vision defines masculinity as being "invaluable in a shipwreck but acceptable at a dance."
• Both political extremes are critiqued: the far right conflates masculinity with cruelty, while the far left advises young men to "act more like women" and conflates masculinity with toxicity.
• The Carnegie Hero Award had 83 recipients last year, with 75 being men—demonstrating that masculinity can manifest heroically.

Young Men's Mental Health Crisis

The speakers highlight alarming statistics demonstrating that young men have "fallen further faster than any other group in recent history," with data showing dramatically elevated rates of suicide, addiction, and incarceration. The conversation establishes that societies with unstable, violent characteristics share the common factor of young men lacking economic or romantic opportunities.

• Young men are four times as likely to kill themselves compared to other demographic groups.
• Young men are three times as likely to become addicted to substances or behaviors.
• Young men are twelve times as likely to be incarcerated compared to other groups.
• The most "dangerous person in the world is a young man who is lonely and broke," according to the speakers.
• Richard Reeves' research documents that young men are the only demographic where outcomes have worsened rather than improved in recent decades.

Big Tech as the Primary Threat to Young Men

Galloway identifies big tech as the central threat to young men's development, arguing that smartphones deliver casino, Netflix, and pornography features that create a "new species of asocial, asexual males." The discussion covers how platform consolidation has eliminated competition that could enforce higher safety standards, leaving regulators as the only check on platform behavior.

• 40% of S&P value is concentrated in ten companies whose business model is based on monetizing attention.
• Tech companies made $11 billion last year from users under 18 years old.
• Meta's acquisition of Instagram (which should never have been permitted according to Galloway) and Google's acquisition of YouTube exemplify how consolidation has eliminated safety-conscious competitors.
• Two-thirds of all social media traffic now goes to a single company, reducing competitive pressure for platform safety.
• Galloway recommends an EPA/FDA equivalent for big tech regulation, removing Section 230 liability protection for algorithmically elevated content, and age-gating social media platforms entirely.
• Joe Rogan contributes observations on how foreign actors (GRU, CCP) exploit American social division, noting Americans now perceive other Americans as their biggest threat rather than external enemies.

Social Media Harms and Brain Chemistry

The episode discusses research by Jonathan Haidt and Gene Twangi linking teen suicide rates to social media use, with children's daily contact with friends cut in half over 20 years. Dr. Robert Lustig's research on brain dopamine circuits reveals how anger functions differently from sexual arousal—the anger circuit does not attenuate or satiate with use.

• Unlike sexual arousal, anger does not attenuate with use—the more frustrated one becomes, the more arousal is felt.
• Big Tech has tapped into the anger/frustration circuit, with users becoming "high all day long on their own anger and frustration."
• Platforms like Reddit, Discord, Robinhood, Coinbase, and pornography offer young men alternatives to real-world effort and social interaction.
• Huberman notes that phone and social media use more closely mimics OCD than traditional addiction because compulsions reinforce rather than relieve obsessions.
• An experiment where a New Mexico attorney general posed as a 12-year-old girl received solicitations from known predators within minutes, demonstrating platforms can identify predatory behavior but choose not to prevent it.
• Reddit, Discord, Robinhood, Coinbase, and pornography are identified as platforms that offer young men dopamine hits without requiring real-world social effort.

Dating, Relationships, and Gender Dynamics

Galloway presents historical context showing that only 40% of men reproduced throughout most of human history compared to 80% of women, but today 75% of Western women have reproduced—giving young men more agency than ever before in human history. The discussion examines how women's tendency to date older, more economically established men has created relationship imbalances for younger cohorts.

• Currently, only one in three men under 30 is in a romantic relationship while two in three women are partnered.
• Women increasingly date older, more economically viable men, leaving younger men at a relative disadvantage.
• The "approach" phase of social skill-building involves practicing asking people out with the goal of becoming comfortable with rejection.
• Approximately 2,500 women are murdered annually in the US, mostly by people they know.
• On dates, men are 16 times more likely to harm themselves than harm the woman, according to cited data.
• Galloway proposes a "renewal of alliances" between men and women as the most important partnership in human history.

Education and Economic Disparities

Scott Galloway presents stark data on education disparities between his generation and today's applicants, showing how elite university admissions have become dramatically more competitive. The conversation examines how wealth and family connections now determine educational outcomes far more than merit.

• UCLA's acceptance rate was 74% when Galloway attended (with a 2.27 GPA and nine failed classes) and is now 9%.
• Children from the top 1% of households are 77 times more likely to gain admission to elite universities compared to other applicants.
• Only 3% of US LinkedIn profiles indicate apprenticeship experience, compared to 11% in Germany and the UK.
• The US spends $13,000 per individual on healthcare with worse outcomes than other G7 nations.
• 30% of US households carry medical debt.
• Galloway is currently advising approximately 40 Democratic presidential candidates on their campaigns.

Government Spending and Generational Inequality

The speakers document how federal spending priorities transfer resources from young to old generations through Social Security and Medicare, creating structural disadvantages for younger Americans. The discussion quantifies the annual transfer and projects future increases as the population ages.

• Government spending allocates 40% of the federal budget to people over 65, projected to reach 50% in coming decades.
• $1.3 trillion is transferred annually from young to older generations through Social Security.
• The productive 1960s-70s American legislative period is credited to elected leaders who had served together and saw themselves as Americans before partisan identities.

Male Mentorship as the Primary Remedy

The speakers argue that the loss of male role models through death, divorce, or abandonment has created a mentorship crisis affecting young men's development. The US now has more single-parent homes than any nation in the world, with 90% headed by women, leaving many boys without male guidance during formative years.

• When a boy loses a male role model through death, divorce, or abandonment, he becomes more likely to be incarcerated than to graduate from college.
• 90% of single-parent homes are headed by women.
• The US now has more single-parent homes than any nation in the world.
• Galloway proposes men mentor by approaching single mothers and inviting their sons to activities.
• Galloway credits his mother's boyfriend giving him $200 at age 13 to invest in Columbia Pictures as a formative mentorship moment.
• Huberman credits his mother for quickly getting men involved in his life after his parents separated.

Alcohol, Substances, and Social Connection

Huberman defends his controversial stance on alcohol, arguing that the risks of social isolation and loneliness far outweigh the health risks of moderate alcohol consumption for most people. The discussion examines the inconsistent US drinking age of 21 compared to the military drinking age of 18 and the draft age of 18.

• Huberman argues that 95% of people can integrate alcohol and drugs into their life without serious consequences.
• The US drinking age of 21 (raised due to MADD advocacy) is inconsistent with the military drinking age of 18 and the fact that 18-year-olds can be drafted.
• Huberman's messaging is intended for three groups: non-drinkers, people in their 40s/50s experiencing aging effects, and optimizers seeking maximum vitality.
• A proposal is made to study whether lowering the drinking age would increase social connection and reduce later alcoholism.
• Drunk driving deaths are attributed to Uber and improved airbags rather than the raised drinking age.
• Galloway shares he smoked heavily in college, stopped for 20-25 years, and now uses 5mg edibles twice weekly for sleep.
• THC warnings note that young men with genetic predisposition to psychosis or bipolar disorder need to be careful.
• General substance philosophy discussed: substances should not be used alone and should be avoided during the week if you need to perform well the next day.

National Service as Policy Solution

Galloway proposes mandatory national service as his single policy solution, citing Israel and Singapore as having the lowest young adult depression rates in the Western world. The Naval Academy model—where midshipmen live two to a dorm, do PT at 5 a.m., eat meals in 15 minutes, and are forbidden from phones—serves as a reference point for structured character development.

• Israel and Singapore have the lowest young adult depression rates in the Western world, attributed partly to mandatory service programs.
• Galloway describes visiting an IDF battalion in Israel and observing young people outside all day meeting friends, mentors, and romantic partners.
• The Naval Academy model includes living two to a dorm, PT at 5 a.m., meals in 15 minutes, and phone prohibition—features that could be incorporated into national service programs.

Pornography and Motivation Concerns

The speakers express concern that pornography represents "the most under-researched addiction" and may be reducing young men's motivation to pursue careers, develop social skills, and engage in real-world dating. The discussion frames pornography as substituting for the motivation that traditionally drove social and romantic effort.

• Lifelike pornography may reduce young men's motivation to pursue careers and develop social skills.
• Pornography may substitute for the motivation that traditionally drove young men to make real-world social and romantic efforts.
• Concerns are raised that porn addiction may reduce engagement with real-world dating.
• THC is noted as potentially worsening issues for those already struggling with pornography addiction.

Cancel Culture and Social Media Fear

The discussion addresses how fear of being recorded and posted online has created anxiety among young people, particularly around workplace interactions and unfiltered social moments. Both young women (through the "Karen" phenomenon) and young men have experienced social consequences from viral moments.

• Young people increasingly fear that recording unfiltered moments on phones and social media will result in HR consequences.
• Cancel culture has created fear among young women through the "Karen" movement and among young men who worry about any missteps being permanently documented.
• The speakers clarify they are not discussing extreme cases like Bill Cosby, but rather the chilling effect on normal social interaction.
• Testosterone therapy is discussed as making effort feel good at the brain level but can impact fertility for those concerned about reproduction.

---

Document Summary: This episode of the Huberman Lab Podcast features NYU professor Scott Galloway (62) presenting research and proposals on young men's mental health crisis, Big Tech's manipulation of attention and anger circuits, education and wealth disparities, and his framework for healthy masculinity centered on being a provider, protector, and procreator. Key statistics cited include young men being 4x more likely to suicide, 3x more likely to become addicted, and 12x more likely to be incarcerated; $1.3 trillion transferred annually from young to old through Social Security; and children from the top 1% being 77 times more likely to gain elite university admission. Galloway's primary policy proposal is mandatory national service modeled on Israel and Singapore.

Full Transcript

Show transcript

And this is the goal. The goal is no
because you're going to get nos. And
then I'm going to call you after you've
made the approach. You're going to text
me, I did an approach. Did you get a no?
Yeah, I got a no. That's exactly the
point. That's the goal. Cuz everyone you
admire, everyone you think has killed
it. The only thing I can guarantee you
is there were a ton of nos. than getting
to one of the top 10 podcasts in the
world, getting to a person as a partner
who's higher character and hotter than
you, getting to make more money than you
would have ever guessed that person
would have made. The only thing that got
them there was the willingness in the
endurance to re to anticipate no.
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast,
where we discuss science and
science-based tools for everyday life.
I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor
of neurobiology and opthalmology at
Stanford School of Medicine. My guest
today is Scott Galloway. Scott Galloway
is a professor at New York University's
Stern School of Business and one of the
world's leading public educators on
intelligent life design, including
finances, relationships, and as today's
conversation also covers, on the
socopolitical landscape. Today we mainly
talk about masculinity and what men
young and old and everything in between
are facing today in terms of their roles
to take in work, in relationships, and
their health. And today we don't just
review the data. You'll hear statistics.
So Scott is very grounded in
quantitative data, which is important,
but he also shares several clear
actionable steps that you can take daily
to ensure that you're making progress in
work and relationships and finances. We
also get into a bit of debate or more
about things like alcohol, the
benevolence or lack thereof of big tech
and social media. And we talk a lot
about the male female dynamics in terms
of the consequences of single bomb homes
and divorce, but just generally male
female dynamics. So while today's
episode does include a lot of
exploration of different topics that
frankly I didn't anticipate, it's also
very proactive. Scott delineates the
things that you can do and frankly
should do each day. These aren't just
lists or hacks, but effective tools that
come from knowledge, data, his deep
thinking, and that reflect the landscape
we are in now. I'm very grateful that
Scott took the time for this
conversation. You'll see that we agree
on many things. We disagree on several.
He's a very deep thinker, extremely
smart, obviously. He also cares about
people. That comes through over and over
again. And he's extremely generous today
on your behalf with indeed tough love
knowledge. Before we begin, I'd like to
emphasize that this podcast is separate
from my teaching and research roles at
Stanford. It is however part of my
desire and effort to bring zero cost to
consumer information about science and
science related tools to the general
public. In keeping with that theme,
today's episode does include sponsors.
And now for my discussion with Scott
Galloway. Scott Galloway, welcome.
>> Thanks, man. It's good to see you.
Actually, I was nervous driving over
here. I I I like you and respect you and
I was think I was trying to figure out
why I was nervous. I really want to I
want to do well today. And the last time
I had this feeling was when I was going
to do Rich Rolls podcast. I really like
like you. I really like and respect Rich
and I remember thinking I had that same
feeling. I wanted to do well. Anyways,
good to be here.
>> Oh man. Well, great to have you here.
It's funny you say that cuz um you know
I was coming here and I was thinking,
yeah, look up to Scott. Like I respect
him and we've had one conversation prior
to this that ended up being quite
extended conversation. And I'm I told
Rob right before coming in here, our
producer, I'm super fired up toss to
learn from you and just sit down and
chat with you. So
>> I actually am going to do something
differently this podcast than any other
podcast, which is the question I'm about
to ask or the kind of thing I'm about to
pose, I normally would do off camera.
>> Okay.
>> I'm do it on camera, which is coming in
here today. It occurred to me that we as
a How old are you?
>> I'm going to be 62 in November.
>> 62. You look great, man. you can share
what you're doing if we get the time.
Um, fitness wise, I'm 50 and the risk we
run into, I realize, is that when I was
16, 20, 30, etc., yes, I wanted
knowledge.
>> Mhm.
>> Maybe even wisdom from elders, but I
also knew with certainty that they
didn't understand a thing about what it
was like to be that age at that time. So
I realize that as much as we might think
we know, we don't know what it's like to
be 16, 25, 30, 40 year old men, and
we'll also talk about women today, but
probably mostly men
>> in 2026. And so how do we reconcile that
in a discussion like this? I just wanted
to ask you, how do you think about that?
because so much of your content and what
you're teaching out there is about
timeless truths, but there's also a lot
of things that are happening now, not
just pain points, but maybe
opportunities that I don't know how do
you think about
do we really know like how how should we
pass along information in a way that's
truly useful to people because that's
what obviously we both want this to be
about. Well, just what you said, you
can't you can't fully relate to a 16 if
you're not 16 years old and know what
they're going through. And what you
know, you you guys are skateboarders.
And when I was 16, I got home and it was
either watch cartoons until my mom got
home or it was take risks and go out and
find friends and and do things. And now
there's so much temptation at home
between big tech and having a casino in
your pocket and Netflix in your pocket
and porn in your pocket. it's just hard
to relate to what they go through. I
think the first thing is just
acknowledging, you know, you don't know
what you don't know and then turning to
data because there are people who look
at the data and I try to counter my
biases or my, you know, my uninformed
thesis with data and so I try to find
good people, good research and inform
it. Also, it helps. I have 15 and
18-year-old sons. I ask them a lot. I
observe them a lot. I hang out with them
a lot and you start to pick up on stuff.
But I think the first is just being open
to people pushing back and recognizing
unfortunately every once in a while in
the comment when someone points
something out and going if it really
hurts and it's upsetting it's usually
because they're right and they found
some soft tissue and they've pressed on
it. So and I try to be open to learning
and and you know just acknowledging when
I I got it wrong. What do you think are
the could be three, could be five, could
be 10 things that all males should
strive to check the boxes on in order to
have a good life, not just to, you know,
be great in some particular role, but
like what are what are the
macronutrients in your opinion of
becoming a healthy, happy, fulfilled
male?
>> I think every person, not just every
man, needs a code. And that is you're
going to be faced with hundreds of
decisions each day and you want to make
generally speaking a higher proportion
of good decisions than the peer group.
Right? So what helps is a code. Some
people get that code from religion, the
military. There are really strong family
connections. I actually got my first
kind of code from my first job there. I
worked at Morgan Stanley. There was just
a certain level of professionalism. I
got code from sports at UCLA. Uh but I I
wonder there's so many lost men right
now. I wonder if masculinity can be a
code or some sort of aspirational form
of masculinity where people born as
males might have an easier time leaning
in. And I should also say that I don't
think masculinity or femininity are
sequestered to people born as males or
females. I'm drawn to men who are more
feminine as friends. My close friends
kind of take care of me and are more
nurturing. But I think for young men, if
they feel like they can lean into some
positive masculine attributes that it
could serve as a code. So I loosely
break it down into three very reductive
qualities and that is the first is to be
a provider. I'm not talking about the
way the world is but the way the world
should be. I think every young man
should have a plan and have an
assumption that at some point he will
have to be the economic lead or provider
for for his family. Sometimes that means
getting out of the way of your partner
who's better at that whole money thing.
Sometimes it means providing more
domestic or emotional support and labor
if your partner is accelerating
economically. When my partner had a kid,
she was working at Goldman Sachs. She
was making more money than me. I was a
new academic at NYU. I was making
$160,000 living in New York, which is
may sound like a lot of money, but it
wasn't. And she was making substantially
more. So, I tried to pick up slack and
and and provide more labor at home and
take charge of our finances. But I think
at the outset, trying to find a plan to
be economically relevant in a capitalist
society is really important because
whether we like to admit it or not, a
male from a self-esteem standpoint, from
a sexual currency standpoint, from the
esteem of the tribe or the society is
going to be disproportionately evaluated
based on your economic viability. So
from an early age, try and have a plan.
You may not have to stick to that plan.
I'm not saying you got to go to Harvard
and go to work at Goldman Sachs, but
maybe you're going to go to trade
school, learn how to install energy
efficient HVAC, but you just need a
plan. You be moving towards something.
The second is protector. If you think
about the most masculine jobs, fireman,
cop, military, the notion is you develop
skills and strengths such you can
protect others. And the most, if you
will, manly, masculine, satisfied I ever
feel is at night when I feel as if my
family feels protected. The kids are
asleep, my partner feels loved and
supported, and I've I've been able to
hopefully through partnership, through
economic valuability, been able to
provide a warm, comfortable life for
them so they can focus on the things
that are important to them. And I think
unfortunately a lot of men that we
should look up to, whether it's the
president, I apologize for getting
political, or the wealthiest man in the
world who are naturally going to be seen
as male role models, they seem to have
skipped the protection part. that the
whole shooting match, the whole reason
you make money, that's the means, but
the ends is such that you can protect
others. I find that's the most rewarding
thing in the world. And then finally,
procreator, and that is uh I think we
need to stop demonizing young men's
desire for relationships and sexual
desires. I think a young man wanting to
have sex is can be a tremendous
motivator to be a better man. It's like
fire. It can be incredibly destructive,
but if you put it in a steel casing with
spark plugs, it can create tremendous
progress. And the story I use is that I
was at the Raleigh Hotel in Miami and I
saw a very attractive woman. And it was
the middle of the day and without the
benefit of alcohol, I didn't have the
confidence to approach her, but I
promised myself I was going to approach
her. And then I went out to get my car
from the valet and was sitting in the
car and I'm like, "God, you're such a
[ __ ] wimp." So I ran back in, went up
to her and said, "Hi, I'm Scott. Where
are you from?" Anyways, long story
short, 18 months later, our son's middle
name is is uh born was Raleigh. And I I
didn't look at her, Andrew, and think
I'd really like lower rates on auto
insurance. I looked at her and thought,
I'd really like to have sex with her.
And I think young men's desire for
relationships and sex, if channeled
correctly, makes you want to be a better
man. Have a a kindness practice.
Demonstrate excellence. Shower for God's
sakes. Work out. Have a plan. Have
resilience. Have perseverance.
demonstrate excellence. So in some
provider, protector, procreator, where I
think I missed it in the book, and I'd
love your response because I'm open to
criticism here is one that's what work
worked for me and I think a lot of
younger people there's different forms
of masculinity that don't necessarily
involve being economically secure,
finding finding a mate. And also the
component I've really missed is service.
And I think a great great kind of one
question or proxy for masculinity in
terms of what you do every day is are
you optimizing for attention or service?
Right? And and then the litmus test that
Richard Reeves kind of gave me uh who's
sort of my Yoda on this stuff is this
notion of surplus value that some men
are born males but never they die never
having become men. It's not about a
religious ceremony and age or you know
some sort of experience or ritual. It's
about at some point can you honestly
look in the mirror and say I add surplus
value. I create more tax revenue in jobs
than I absorb. Everyone absorbs tax
revenue if you're in America. I listen
to more people complain than I complain.
Right? I love more people than love me.
And I didn't get that. I don't think I
really became a man well into my 40s
because I was always I took a capitalist
approach to relationships.
I always wanted more. I wanted a
girlfriend that was better to me than I
was to her. I wanted a job where I was
getting paid more maybe than I was
contributing. And then what you realize
as you get older is the whole shooting
match is to to create surplus value,
provide, be a better friend, be a better
partner. There's no way my kids will
ever be able to return as much as I've
invested in them. I mean, we have these,
you know, the Hallmark Channel and
insurance commercials will tell me that
I'll have these moments, and I get
those, but my kids are never up at 2 am
worried about me. They just aren't,
right? I' I'm spending a ton I always
say to them, you're adding negative
value. Just be clear, you go to these
amazing schools, all these talented
people, negative value. Me and your mom,
we are constantly investing in you. This
would be impossible for you to pass
back. What I figured out is that's the
whole shooting match is I'm finally
Andrew finally at a place of surplus
value. I apologize for the word salary
provider, protector, procreator. Um are
you are you optimizing for service not
attention? And do you can you really say
you add surplus value?
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the episode description. I love all
that. I don't have anything to add. I do
have two questions and one reflection.
The reflection is that what you started
with that every day you're making
decisions all day long. And you want
more of those to be good decisions than
bad decisions relative to your peers. I
think that's a a terrific way to think
about striving and I've never heard it
posed that way. So I really just want to
bold underline and highlight that for
everyone. For the eighth grader, for the
12th grader, for the college junior, the
40year-old man,
make better decisions than the average
around you. The problem I have, I guess
I do have one one caveat here, is um
that most people won't remember this,
but that show Jerry Springer I think was
so popular because people like to focus
on all the people doing worse than them
because it makes it easy to stay right
where you're at.
>> Yeah.
>> So, who are the comparison points that
one can keep in mind as they strive to
make these better decisions each day?
Because I think that first statement you
made is touching into some serious
wisdom. So, who is the comparison point
and how do you keep that framed? because
you study markets, you understand
markets. What's the market comparison
point in this? Make more better
decisions than worse ones relative to
the average as you progress through your
day.
>> I think it's really important, I mean,
you're talking a little bit about role
models and references. And so, first
off, one myth I think we need to dispel
is that success equals exploitation.
There's a very unhealthy zeitgeist,
especially from the far left, that
anyone who's very successful is
exploiting others. And I think we need
to puncture that narrative and say you
should strive to be successful. And
success might mean certain things for
other people. I didn't grow up with
money. So for me, success for most of my
life was trying to get economic
security. I I was anxiety plagued my mom
and I, economic anxiety, and it was like
a ghost following us around telling us
we weren't worthy. So my role models
were always people who had figured out
economic success and people have to pick
their own role models. I always thought
masculinity was getting back in
someone's face who wasn't didn't give me
the respect I thought I deserved. I was
that [ __ ] that when someone cut me
off in traffic felt like I needed to
speed up and cut them off. That if the
Delta ticket counter representative
wasn't kind to me or was busy, I would
get back in their face. It's like, well,
do you realize I'm a 1K member? And
then, you know, a decent reference point
is just men you admire and they're
everywhere that perhaps don't can take
blows. They realize someone might be
having a bad day. But you said something
that that inspired a thought in that
what I just outlined is pretty meta. You
know, kind of themes that sometimes
aren't that actionable. So, I just want
to bring it down one level. As we were
talking about off mic, I try and mentor
two or three young men at any given
time. And these are young men that quite
frankly need mentoring. They're
struggling. Most of them might be still
living at home. You know, they're not
these aren't people who went to Brown
and are working at Goldman Sachs. And
so, some just some more tactical things
that I think serve as a reference point
for how you succeed or how you make
progress. The first thing I do, the
first hack is I say, "Unlock your
phone." And I'm going to look at it. And
there's a little bit of nervousness. So,
what I do to loosen them up or lubricate
it is I say, "Okay, let me tell you two
things. First is I gamble. I don't
gamble on FanDuel. I gamble with
options. I know it's stupid. I know I'm
going to lose money over the long term.
I'm a smart guy. I love markets, but
that dope a hit I get is too seductive.
So, I sell calls and and and puts. Uh I
consume porn. That's sort of not that's
not a that's an embarrassing thing to
say at 61, but yeah, I still consume
porn. But I tell them that and it
lubricates or it it makes them more
comfortable. I open their phone.
Everyone has an advantage. Most young
men who are not excelling, if you will,
by traditional western capitalist
standards, their advantage is capital.
Specifically, their human capital. They
have time. And within about 5 to 7
minutes, I can find eight hours of time
from Tik Tok, from X, from porn, from
gambling sites, from YouTube. I'm like,
we're going to find eight hours. You
tell me we're we're going to reduce this
eight hours. Next week I'm going to
check and we're going to reallocate that
capital into three things. The first is
we're going to get really [ __ ]
strong. I just think the best
anti-depressant is moving weights,
building some bulk or running far. I'
I've jokingly said every man under the
age of 30 should aspire to be able to
walk into any room and know if [ __ ] got
real they could kill and eat everybody
or outrun them. Like there's different
forms of fitness. You can be fast, you
can be flexible, you can be strong, but
there's no excuse. the male form is
blessed with, you know, more bone
density, double twitch muscle, all the
things you talk about, this incredible
substance that pours over called
testosterone. You're going to look back
when you're my age and think, why wasn't
I just fast, sleek, a monster, just
strong, so we're going to work out at
least three times a week. The second
thing is we got to make some money. And
I want you to make money outside your
house. You know, I don't care if you're
a lift driver, task rabbiter, Panera is
hiring people at 18 bucks an hour and
only one out of 10 that accept a job
actually owe up show up the first day.
So, if you make if you really make the
effort, you can make decent money. And
the great thing about getting a taste
for the flesh of money is you start
learning how to make more money. If you
want to make a lot of money, unless
you're smart enough to be born to rich
parents, start off by making a little
bit of money and you'll start to figure
out capitalism, right? And the final
thing is at least three times a month
we're going to put ourselves in a group
sitting where we are trying to achieve
something great in the agency of others.
A nonprofit, a church group, a sports
league, a writing club. And then the
second phase of that is we're going to
do something what I call the approach.
Hey, hey man, do you want to go watch
the Jets game? Right? An expression of
friendship. And then if you're really
comfortable, an expression of romantic
interest while making them feel safe.
would you like to grab a coffee
sometime? And this is the goal. The goal
is no because you're going to get nos.
And then I'm going to call you after
you've made the approach, you're going
to text me, I did an approach. Did you
get a no? Yeah, I got a no. That's
exactly the point. That's the goal. Cuz
everyone you admire, everyone you think
has killed it. The only thing I can
guarantee you is there were a [ __ ] ton
of nos in getting to one of the top 10
podcasts in the world. Getting to a
person as a partner who's higher
character and hotter than you, getting
to make more money than you would have
ever guessed that person would have
made. The only thing that got them there
was the willingness and the endurance to
re to anticipate no. And unfortunately,
big tech is setting up an algorithm that
convinces you that a frictionless life
is a good life and that you never need
to endure no. And what you end up with
is a lack of skills to to p persevere,
to realize you're okay. And that's what
I ask the kids the next day. Are you
okay? Yeah, I'm bummed out, but you're
okay. If a man under the age of 30 works
out three times a week, works 30 hours a
week outside of the house, right? And is
volunteering, that immediately puts him
in the top 8% of all young men. And I
apologize for the word salad here, but
something I hate is the incel movement.
involuntarily celibate. Right?
Throughout history, 99% of men have been
involuntarily celibate for most of their
lives. There's few things young men
would rather be doing than having sex.
Only 40% of men have reproduced
throughout history. 80% of women. So, no
man has a birthight to reproduce. In the
West, it's actually now 75%. So, young
men have more agency than they ever
have. Now, if you do those things right,
just those three things, work outside of
the house, work out, have a kindness
practice, uh volunteer in the service of
others, you're immediately going to put
yourself in the top desile of young men.
And if you're in the top desile of young
men, I can guarantee you over time you
will become voluntarily incelibate,
which is awesome because you'll
establish a relationship. And young men
under the age of 30, a lot of the
research shows, benefit more from a
relationship than women. Yet only one in
three men under the age of 30 is in a
relationship. Whereas two in three women
are in a relationship. And you think,
well, Scott, that's mathematically
impossible. It's not because women are
dating older because they want more
economically and emotionally viable men.
So, I'll circle back to the more
tactical recommendations. Get fit, start
making some money, have a plan, and
start doing things in the agency of
others. I think the ultimate hack for
depression or if you're feeling bad
about yourself is to start helping
others and to always keep in mind and
this is the hard part that the
antichrist of your progress as a young
man the devil the [ __ ] enemy the
villain here the bond villain with
trillions of dollars is big tech. They
are trying to figure out with AI a
million times a second how to convince
you to spend one more second a day on
your phone sequestered from your
relationships because they're a
shareholder value. 40% of the S&P is 10
companies whose sole mission is to
monetize your time. And unfortunately
they're not they're not bad people but
what they're doing has resulted in a
small group a cohort of men. It's not
small. Millions of men who are evolving
into a new species of asocial, asexual
males, who wake up at the age of 30
thinking they've had a frictionless
life, living at home, obese, anxious,
and depressed, having never developed
the skills that they need to do well
professionally, personally. So big tech
is not your friend. If you do not figure
out how to modulate big tech products,
whether it's Instagram or YouTube, you
are falling into a trap of eventually
being sequestered and not developing the
skills to establish the most important
thing in life and that is relationships.
>> Two questions about big tech and I'll
just push back a little bit on the big
tech thing. Uh not because I'm afraid of
big tech. I did grow up in Silicon
Valley so I I
>> Well, you're at Stanford.
>> Yeah. Invariably have a different
relationship to it. And I uh I'm not um
name dropping. I happen to be close with
some of the people that run these
companies or in number, you know, two or
number four slots or, you know, in some
cases who run the companies. One who
I've never met, who I'll just raise
first, um is who you referred to
earlier, the richest man in the world is
Elon Musk.
>> And I was frankly a little bit surprised
that you um called him out when
discussing the importance of being a
protector. I understand the political
side. Well, let's just for the moment I
will just set Trump aside. Um, very
polarizing figure.
>> Happy to go there if you want, but I
know your stance on him. But the the
mention of Elon and as a nonp protector
surprised me
>> because I think of Elon as somebody who
seems to love his children very much.
Uh, he's organized family differently
than most, but he certainly has the
capacity to take care of them. Who is
committed to big projects. Mhm.
>> I mean, a a superhuman level of of
output in terms of just neural link, the
field that I'm closest to, right?
Phenomenal progress. And that's just one
of the SpaceX Neural Link, Tesla X, etc.
So, I'm just curious what um motivated
that. Do you that um makes you uh
because I don't see him as a nonproctor.
I I don't know that I see him
>> as a protector of a particular kind in
his personal life, but I don't have
access to that. But in terms of his
motivation to pro protect our species,
>> I personally believe his desire to get
to Mars is a genuine one
>> to have an option uh for humanity. So I
see him as a protector. And I'll
probably piss off a lot of people by
saying this, but that doesn't mean I
universally adopt everything he says and
does, but I see him as kind of an
awesome figure in our history who's
like, "Let's get to Mars in case this
Earth thing doesn't work out." And also,
let's get to Mars cuz it's awesome.
>> I think that's an entirely fair
viewpoint. and you're adding nuance to
it. So, let's talk about Elon Musk. If I
had a red button that I could push and
get rid of all of big tech or Elon Musk,
somehow he could float away like a
Gabriel Garcia Marquez
uh uh character and not die, but just
not not have happened. I wouldn't press
the button. I think big tech and Elon
Musk are net goods for the world.
>> We're going to get to EVs. We're going
to get to Mars faster because of Elon
Musk. He inspired the EV race, which is
good for the world. The problem is with
the word net. And as it relates to
masculinity and as a role model for
young men, he's probably one of the best
role models in terms of being super
aggressive, taking risks, ignoring the
noise, and just being laser-like
focused, telling an amazing story,
garnering capital. I mean, there's just
no getting around it. The guy's just an
inspiration. I think the whole shooting
match is if you become the richest man
in the world, I think he moved to
protection. I would argue that he's not
a great role model and that he has not
done a great job of convincing younger
men that protection and taking care of
others. I think the way he acquits
himself online by punching down when he
says something mean about somebody and I
know this and I'm fine because I have I
have money and I'm not dependent upon
any one person's opinion of me. But if
he says something negative about you and
calls you names, his 120 million
followers come for you. And I think as a
general rule, and this is true for
everybody, but especially for men, you
never punch down. You just don't.
anyone. I'm I'm openly I make personal
attacks on people. This is technically a
personal attack on Elon Musk. To call
someone not not not good a good role
model, that's a personal attack. But I
never make personal attacks of anyone
who isn't marketkedly more powerful than
me. And I find that a lot of these
people, Donald Trump and Elon Musk, have
no problem punching down. So again, it
goes back to this. Is he a net good for
the world? I acknowledge the point. And
I would even argue, yeah, he is. But
that doesn't he should also be held
accountable for his blessings. I can't
stand the fact that he should post
America and the government. If you look
at the most successful companies in the
world, they're littered up and down the
coast right now. Whether it's Qualcomm
and San Diego,
SpaceX and Snap here, head north to
Salesforce and Meta and Google, keep
going, you hit Amazon and Microsoft, and
then it stops once you get to the
Canadian border. And then you have to go
all the way up to Lululemon to find a
multi-billion dollar company. Come back
down to where you teach at UC San Diego
and those great companies and it stops
and you got to go to another 7,000
kilometers to get the Marcato Libé and
Buenosarees. There's something about
America that creates unbelievable
opportunity that creates the wealthiest
men in the world. And I find that these
tech brothers have a total lack of
appreciation for the sacrifices in the
system built in America and are the
first to ship post the government and
complain about regulation and things
getting in the way. I find that
especially obnoxious. But let me
acknowledge the point. I think on the
whole Elon Musk and big tech are a net
good for the world, but that doesn't
mean we shouldn't hold them accountable
and ask why would you do these things
when you're so blessed?
So, this gets to the heart of something
that I think is extremely important,
which is we're living in the age of
everything pretty much being public
about public figures. Not everything,
but many more facets of their lives than
ever before in history. In part because
they share many more facets of their
lives. It's not just that stuff gets
unearthed. It's like they're talking
about their company. They're also in the
role of arguing with their ex on
sometimes online. And you know, you see
that their kids sometimes will will be
apparent who they are. You know, it's
interesting. My my dad, first generation
immigrant who came here, became a
scientist, and he he's from Argentina,
and he along these lines, he always said
it was funny to him that when you would
go to somebody's office in the United
States, a professor or a businessman or
something, the picture of his family was
facing out.
>> He said that was so weird. He said, "In
Argentina, your picture of your wife and
your kids and your and your dog were
facing in. That's yours. you don't share
that with a person coming to your
office. Like who would do that? This
oversharing thing if it when you look
back is a kind of a a long-standing
theme in American business and it it
shows up even more so of course online.
So to me this this idea of okay Elon for
instance but very different um role
model figure someone that I consider a
close friend Joo Willink incredibly
impressive
>> true warrior
>> great dad great husband I know his
family amazing human being in so many
ways and he's kind of like the tough
football coach that a lot of guys didn't
have that younger guys I think that's
one of the reasons people gravitate
towards him you don't wonder whether or
not he really can do what he says you
ought to do because he does it every day
and he posts it on his watch. So Jaco is
a really good example
>> of somebody that people admire and I
consider Jaco one example. So why not
look at public figures
>> you and perhaps even me for instance and
just look at it these people as a buffet
of options to adopt certain traits but
not others be doing great things and
assuming that the other things they're
doing aren't you know truly atrocious
right I mean criminal atrocious you know
>> I don't know that we're asking the
people who are role models leaders
business leaders
>> I don't think we're placing a reasonable
expectation on them I don't say this for
any personal reasons I I've known
replete with flaws for the very long
time. So I don't claim to not have them,
never have. But then young guys are
might be thinking, well, I have to be
perfect, too. And if I'm not perfect and
I don't have 150 million followers, I
better have a fraternity of people to
protect me. This is the kind of the
underlying current that I think has
driven the toxic end of the hate the
word, the manosphere. I hate it because
it's become too mishmashy. Mhm.
>> It's not it's not even a continuum. It's
just a mess. So,
what do you have to say and think about
the expectation that the leaders of the
world, the role model
not have these flaws?
>> Mhm.
>> At the same time, telling guys, hey,
like ask and get told no.
>> Mhm.
>> I mean, you and I both know I don't know
if it's real world data or if it's
statistical data, but I have many women
friends in my life and I have a sister.
If an attractive guy rolls up on a woman
and says, "Hey, you want to get coffee
sometime?"
>> It's romantic.
>> It's romantic. If a guy that's not
attractive does that,
>> it's creepy.
>> It's creepy. So, how do you tell a guy
that isn't good-looking?
>> Yeah.
>> To do that, and then not be called a
creep. And not just be called a creep,
but be called a creep on an app, which
isn't just designed to prevent sexual
assault, but is also designed to share
information about who to date and not to
date. And guys get black. I'm told by
young guys, I'm not on dating apps, but
that guys get blacklisted basically,
>> not because of sexual assault, but
because, you know, they get called out
as like a bad kisser. He didn't smell so
good or something. This is the stuff
that used to be in private discussions
among women. I know this cuz I have a
sister, right? Women talk. I listen
through the wall, right? What do they
talk about? And
>> now it's public. There's parallel
construction here. I'm sure you're
tracking it. But for everyone listening,
it's like this is a serious problem.
Mhm.
>> I mean, can't we acknowledge that
somebody like Elon, let's just stay on
that example, is a is a phenom that
probably has never existed inund at
least a hundred years.
>> Mhm.
>> Has huge vision. Sure, he might have
some like issues in his in his life that
are none of my business. And yet he has
a lot of good example to set for young
men. I believe that. And it also gives
permission to not be perfect
without harming people.
So,
uh, acknowledge the point. There's a lot
there, but I still think if someone is
um constantly optimizing for attention
to draw cheap capital to his firms and
is very open and very critical of others
and is probably the most dominant force
in electing the next president,
um that we should pay very close
attention to his activities, whether
it's a reported addiction to ketamine
and and sleeping with a loaded gun next
to his bed and not living with any of
his children, whether it's
>> you think that should be public fair
game.
>> I think if he wants to put certain
aspects of his life out there constantly
for affirmation, that that type of
scrutiny is probably fair game. I also
acknowledge the point that people are
human and you need to have some grace
and say, well, unless you're perfect,
try and learn from people, try and
understand them, and try and demonstrate
some grace. The other thing going back
to big tech is that we have connected um
economic
value to tearing down people. So you've
had bestsellers. I've had bestsellers.
>> I still my book hasn't come out yet. I
hope for it to be a bestseller.
>> You haven't? Do you have a book?
>> No, it comes out in September. It's been
delayed for a while, but but I
appreciate the
>> I feel like I've already read it.
>> No. Well, God God willing as well. If it
doesn't it doesn't
>> Let me Let me prepare because I think
you're actually my I don't know you
well, but I do know you. I get the sense
that like me a lot of the criticism
doesn't just bounce right off you that
you take the stuff to heart and
sometimes it upsets you. I know it.
Okay, I'll say it upsets me.
>> Some of it does, but it's not the
criticism that people think upsets me.
That upsets me, but that's a different
story.
>> Your book will be a bestseller. You you
could put out you could you could put
out I don't know the the the script of
The Sound of Music and it's going to be
a bestseller. It'll be better than if I
had done that, but not better than The
Sound of Music.
>> There you go. And this is what uh Tik
Tok and YouTube, the algorithms, it
someone will immediately say, "This is
why Andrew Huberman's book is bullshit."
Because if they put a well-known
figure's name in front of a best-selling
book and says [ __ ] and creates
antagonism and comments, the algorithms
pick up on that, optimize it, it'll get
millions of views, which is more Nissan
ads and more shareholder value. So there
is not only a healthy check on people's
power, more scrutiny. The president
should get a lot of scrutiny. The
president deserves to have his business
and personal life uh to a certain extent
at least where it demonstrates character
looked into and examined and I think a
certain amount of power and healthy
check on power is probably a healthy
thing. Unfortunately now there's
economic incentive around tearing people
down. Like I don't know about you I do
have a real fear. I am highly imperfect
professionally and personally. I've
engaged in a lot of professional and
personal behavior that I am not proud
of. I've been divorced. I haven't been
as kind to people that have worked for
me as I should have been. And I'm
worried it's all going to come crashing
down. And a lot of times I feel like the
stuff I'm saying on podcasts like this,
I'm trying to portray myself as being
better than I actually am. I have huge
imposttor syndrome. And big tech has an
economic incentive in trying to find as
many guardians of gotcha pins as
possible because if you get to a certain
point of fame or credibility, there's
just too much money in trying to find
the soft tissue on you. So there's a
very unhealthy attribute in our society
where we're all just waiting for bad
news and there's economic incentive to
say, "Well, this person isn't perfect.
Look what this person did." So I agree
with you. We need to demonstrate a
little bit more grace. Something I
really hate about my party, I consider
myself a proud progressive, is these
purity tests, right? That Oh, you know,
I I put out a picture of me and a bunch
of buddies that I went to UCLA with.
One's a an aircraft carrier pilot, one's
an opthalmologist. Like, it was a
picture of all of us, and I've said, you
know, find impressive men and and
befriend them.
>> I think I saw that post. You were the
one towering over the rest of them.
>> Yeah. I think I shrunk. Huh.
>> Isn't that weird? No, I don't think you
know you now.
>> I was 6'3 in college. I'm 61 and a half
now. That's nice. I'm at an age where
I'm shrinking anyways. And I knew I was
just waiting for it. White privilege.
What a douchebag. What, you know, just
all the comments and all the sort of,
you know, people people coming after
you, right? Or people who can't just
say, "Oh, good for you. Well done." And
that's just part of it. And that's a
small price to pay for a certain level
of success, but the algorithms
immediately grab that and elevate it
because there's money and antagonism. A
thoughtful nuance conversation online
and a positive reinforcing comment that
that doesn't tickle the sensors. If you
can create a fight online, if you say
mRNA vaccines alter your DNA, you're
going to get a lot of comments and the
algorithms love that and it'll elevate
it. So unfortunately, we have attached
40% of the market value of the S&P to
incendiary content that tears us apart.
And the result is people now don't
believe that Russian troops pouring over
the border in Ukraine is their enemy.
They believe that their neighbor with a
Trump sign is their real enemy. Or
someone who doesn't believe your
ideology around gender politics is your
enemy. And unfortunately, it's being I
believe, and I know this sounds
paranoid, but doesn't mean I'm wrong.
these poorest platforms that have an
economic incentive and antagonistic
content are being fueled
uh by bad actors whether it's the GRU or
the CCP who look at Americans say we
can't beat them economically we can't
beat them kinetically so let's get them
to hate each other and that is Americans
now perceive other Americans as the
biggest threat so one it is healthy to
look at powerful people that have huge
influence such as you and to a lesser
extent me and question their beliefs and
critical articles of them. It crushed me
when the I can't remember was the
Atlantic or the New York or New Yorker
came out with sort of a critical review
of my book. It was really upsetting to
me. And I think part of the thing that
was so upsetting was when we were
talking about this off mic, it meant
some of it was true. That's healthy.
It's healthy when there's thoughtful
criticism around your book. But when I
have hundreds of comments accusing me of
[ __ ] that never happened and then you
look at it and it's dogm Wisconsin 331
with three followers, that's a bot. And
the fact that these platforms choose not
to screen out those bots because they
know more incendiary comments that
create more comments and more Nissan
ads, I think that is tearing at the
fabric of America. But I just want to
acknowledge the point. I think maturity
is realizing people aren't perfect.
Learn from them what you can. But I do
think the wealthiest man in the world
and the president should be held to a
higher standard. I think they have
extraordinary blessings. I think their
decisions matter and I think it's I
think the scrutiny they come under is
warranted. And I will say this, I think
the president to a certain extent Elon
Musk have created a lot of cloud cover
for our imperfections.
>> As many of you know, I've been taking
AG1 for nearly 15 years now. I
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subscription. I disagree um vehemently
with one point, which is that I'm more
influential than you are. You're
incredibly influential. In fact, a a an
ex-girlfriend's sisterh who went to NYU
asked me if I knew who you were. I said,
"Of course." And and she said her words,
"For our generation, Scott is like a
father to us." It's like, "We" and she
happens to be in venture capital, but um
so maybe there's a finance link there,
too. And I but I pressed on that a
little bit and and just asked and and
she said, "Yeah, you know, we look up to
him. We listen to him. He's he's very
paternal to us." So, I thought you might
appreciate that. Um
>> I do appreciate that. Although I would
have woman as well.
>> I'd appreciate it more if she'd said
older brother.
>> I'm very conscious of my age now. But
>> really,
>> 100%.
>> You're in your 60s, you're super fit,
you got two healthy boys, you're in a
happy relationship, you got huge reach,
you I imagine your bank accounts are
fine, and you're trying to and you're
actively uh engaged in service. I I in
my eyes, you're doing great.
>> I appreciate that, but I' I'd rather be
doing I'd rather be in this spot at 40
at 41, not 61. I'm very I'm very
self-conscious about my age. But I just
want to go back to
something I think that gets in the way
of success
and has been a huge unlock for me is
it I mean it's not but your fear your
fear of criticism. If you're going to be
successful you're going to face
criticism. Starting a business is
subjecting yourself to public failure. I
want to go back to something you said
about approaching women and guys being
afraid to be that guy.
I think some of that is a little bit
exaggerated
>> and that most women if you are
respectful, the vast majority of women,
if you are respectful and approach a
woman at a bar, hi, how are you? And
she's not interested, you're going to be
fine and you're both going to be fine.
And just as I think there's two myths
that are damaging to the mating market,
which is really upsetting to me. One,
that men think that all women are
looking to or a lot of women are looking
to embarrass them and they might get
cancelled professionally. If you're
respectful to a woman and approach her
and make her feel safe and then if she's
not interested, politely exit, you're
going to be fine and so is she, and I
don't buy that your career, you're
taking your career in your hands, I
think that's just [ __ ] and an excuse
to be an incel. I just don't buy it. And
two, what really has been an enormous
unlock for me is I believe in my
atheism. I believe at some point I'm
going to look into my kids' eyes and
know our relationship is coming to an
end. I was [ __ ] their age. You got a
bunch of young dudes in here who look
like former Abbercrombie and Fitch
models. I remember they look like
they're 25. They're probably 35. It was
yesterday I was their age, which means
just in an instant I'm going to be again
at that moment where I know I don't have
much time left. And in a 100 years, no
one's going to give a [ __ ] what I said
or thought or did or the mistakes I
made. And embracing that and accepting
that has given me so much courage,
right, to start businesses, to make dumb
investments that might be crazy, to tell
to tell men in my life finally that I
love them or I'm impressed with them.
When I was their age, I had this weird
sense of masculinity that if I said,
"Oh, dude, look how handsome this dude
is." That it took away from my prestige
somehow that I couldn't tell people they
were impressive. I couldn't tell a
woman, "God, I'm just crazy about you
and I'm I would give anything to spend
more time with you because I was worried
that she wouldn't return my affection
and I would be just too hurt and I had
to be cool and like not need her or not
all this [ __ ] that got in the way of
me really having a good life." And what
I realized is every failure I've had,
people go, "Oh, his business went
bankrupt." Okay. And then they go back
to thinking about themselves. So,
everyone you're worried about really
doesn't give a [ __ ] about you. And by
the way, the dude that's not very
good-looking and is with a ridiculously
like high character hot woman is one of
two things. Has rich parents or two or
two is willing to endure rejection. So,
I I just don't buy I you know
that myth of the man risking his
personal and professional reputation. I
don't think that's true. On the other
side, the myth I hate, I don't know if
you've seen this on Tik Tok, a lot of
women are saying, "I don't date because
the risk of being unalived," which I
guess is the woke version of saying
murdered.
>> I think it's cuz on social media
platforms, if you say murder or suicide,
>> oh, it goes ranked down.
>> They I don't know if it actually does,
but it's this idea that Yeah. that it's
going to be uh ranked down.
>> Here's the data. Okay. If 2500 women a
year are murdered by men, that's way too
many. It's a huge problem. Sexual
assault is a bigger problem. The
majority of women who are murdered are
murdered by someone they know. So the
reality is a small number of women are
murdered on dates with strangers. It
just doesn't happen that often. And
40,000 men a year kill themselves. So if
you go on a date with a man, the man is
16 times more likely to go home and hurt
himself than hurt you. So what I would
say to men is make the approach, take
the risk, and as long as you're
respectful, you're going to be fine and
so is she. and you are not taking your
professional or personal reputation into
your hands. And what I would say to
women is if you go on a date with a guy
that you met on an app, there's all
sorts of digital breadcrumbs. And it's a
lot you you are and I can statistically
prove this. The ride over an Uber, the
Uber was a lot more dangerous than the
date itself. And you are more likely to
die of choking during dinner than to be
hurt by that man. So, what what I hate
is that there's all this inflammatory
content being boosted on online media
that's getting in the way of the most
rewarding thing in life, and that is to
find someone who you are physically
attracted to, who you sync up with
spiritually, and you decide to build a
life together. And not enough of that is
happening. We're in a sex recession,
right? And online is making it worse.
The dating apps have an incentive in you
finding a bigger, better deal. And the
genders have done an amazing job of
convincing each other it's the other's
fault. And I think one of the big fosi
that need to be really um pay more
attention to is what I call renewal of
alliances. I'd love to see a renewal of
alliances between us and our great
allies in Europe. Renewal of allies who
are moderates. I know nothing about you.
I just don't I just can't believe you're
an extremist on the left or the right. I
just don't. Bullseye. There needs to be
a renewal of alliances between what I'll
call moderate lefties like me and
moderate conservatives that are
everywhere. We're all Americans, but the
most important alliance that needs re
renewal is the greatest alliance in
history, hands down, and it's the
alliance between men and women. The
integration of female and male energy,
the ability to find someone you want to
procreate with, to build something
together, that is the most rewarding
thing in life. And I can prove it's key
to the species progress and existence.
And men and women have been taught not
to trust each other and to blame each
other. I hate the [ __ ] manosphere and
I hate the quite frankly some of the
reactionary notion on the left where
it's misandry cosplaying is social
commentary. There's a lot of [ __ ]
misandry online where you're assuming
every young man is a predator and quite
frankly that every billionaire is evil
or that every white person is racist.
But the alliance between men and women
needs to be reformed. It's the greatest
alliance in history. And online, it's
teaching men to blame women for their
problems. No. Women's as sense saved our
ass. Women in the factory in World War
II is the reason we won the war in four
years, not in seven. Women going into
the workforce in the 70s and 80s and
protections of their rights for fair pay
is the reason we're not a second tier
power to China right now. If women
hadn't ascended, we'd be really squarely
and duly [ __ ] right? And their ascent
is in no way inversely correlated or
correlated to men's descent. Men have to
stop that [ __ ] An immigrant didn't
take your job. He made it such you could
have lower rent, a meal for a reasonable
price, and have someone take care of
your mother when she's older. And at the
same time, if you're having romantic
problems, it's not her fault. Women are
ascending and naturally they have higher
standards because they're no longer
economically dependent upon men, which
should be a motivator for men to level
up, not to start blaming women. And all
this [ __ ] is being totally inflamed and
taken totally out of proportion by
online because it creates more
attention. It's interesting. It's novel.
And it creates more Nissan ads. But I
I'm trying to figure out what is the
economic incentive to try and figure out
a way to get more men and women
appreciating the other gender beyond
just the basics, right? How do we renew
that alliance?
I love that statement. I saw somewhere
of all places on X, you know, every once
in a while you encounter something that
really sticks with you. Every once in a
while there's a gem that just falls
through, really makes you think. And I
don't know who this person was. This
might have been an account with one
follower and it landed in front of me
and it said the way you destroy a
society is to get the men and women to
hate each other. And as a biologist
first and foremost I thought, well that
makes perfect sense, right? If you want
to eradicate a a population of any
species, you get the the males and the
females to start hating each other. Not
just because they don't mate, but
because you throw off the mating
dynamics in a way that then can create
infighting among the males. We see that
too. Infighting among the women.
Although I don't know, I I think that
there's a lot to explore around this
sort of what the standard is that we're
holding the opposite sex to. It's an
interesting question. I I I can't say
I've really evolved my thinking around
this enough to to maybe dive into it,
but I know you thought about this. I
think a lot of males hide behind this
notion that they have to be everything.
They have to be tall. They have to be
rich. They have to be jacked. They have
to be kind. They have to be, you know,
hopefully everyone's kind, but you know
what I mean, that they uh they can't say
the wrong thing even once, you know, so
they're hiding behind that and if they
go out and look, they'll get plenty of
evidence for that,
>> right? No men, no protectors, no this.
Actually, I I brought I did something I
rarely do.
>> Um, which is I brought my phone into
this because right before I came in
here, a woman that I've known for 20
years wrote, asked me if I would ask you
a question. No, and it's directly
related to this. So, I'm gonna do this.
Of course, I'm not gonna say who this
person is. And she said, cuz I'd
mentioned that I'm speaking to you
today, and she said, "Please tell Scott
that I'd personally like to thank him
for his efforts encouraging men to
embrace their duties as protectors,
providers, and generally just being
accountable because we have a serious
shortage among hetereroudes." She lives
in San Francisco, particularly in the
Bay Area. And I said, "We'll do, but can
you tell me what you mean by
accountable?" Serious question. I want
to make sure I'm specific. She said,
"When I say accountability, I'm
referring to the fact that many times in
romantic relationships, men seem to want
to avoid feelings of shame and guilt to
such a degree that they often respond to
their partner's feelings towards them
without empathy or accountability.
I find that here in okay, San Francisco,
there are many women in San Francisco. I
don't think I outed her here. Or perhaps
all major US metros, chivalry is dead.
Men are afraid to assert their desires
because they don't want the obligation
that it might entail." Interesting. They
give up when something requires internal
growth or leveling up. They shy away
from acting protective of their partners
in favor of egalitarian dynamics, which
is flawed since men's clear since men
clearly have more physical strength. Oh
my god, this goes on and on.
>> This is almost overwhelming me, but I
think I'm, you know, can grapple with
it. Oh, thank you. I swear I didn't
plant this. She said, none of this has
ever applied to you in case you're
serious. Thank you for that one, by the
way. She says they're wimpy. They avoid
relationships that require work and
responsibility because they don't want
to feel inadequate. They avoid difficult
conversations and repair because they
don't want to feel shame or guilt. They
avoid asking for anything explicitly
because they don't want to feel
obligated or complimenting a woman or
giving her flowers or romance. They're
all scared to do it. It's so odd.
Anyway, that's it.
>> That's all. Huh.
>> Okay. So, I I'm reading I'm hearing that
second part for the first time, the long
part. And I have to say, if I were a
25-year-old guy now, I' like,
>> whoa,
>> right,
>> that's a lot. Okay, there's something
there. They want me to bring flowers, be
romantic, be affectionate. Clearly,
there's a there's a reference towards
being sexually proactive there. And yet,
assume responsibility, level up, be
empathic.
>> You know, I'm not trying to defend or or
attack this person who's I'm close to in
my life, but that's a lot. That's a
that's a that's a tall building right
there to scale for a guy who's trying to
figure out how to work out three times a
week, get off point. Anyway, I thought
I'd share that and just get your
reflections.
I think that first off I think that
we all have a set of insecurities around
not living up mostly because again I I
come I really do think big tech has had
is is while it's a net good incredible
economic growth job growth I connect
with my buddies from college I get to
build a business and market it less
expensively I can break through voices
that can bubble up just based on their
talent
Teen suicide has skyrocketed since
social one on mobile. It's not the only
reason, but it's either number one or
number two. According to my colleague
Jonathan Height and Gene Twangi at San
Diego State, I don't believe there's any
reason that anyone under the age of 16
should be on social media where they
encouraged young girls are encouraged to
sexualize themselves. If they start
having suicidal ideiation, they are sent
an email that says verbatim, here are
some images on suicide we might we
thought you might find interesting. But
also, it's created unreasonable
expectations for a lot of young men and
young women about what they need to look
like. If they haven't made millions of
dollars, if they aren't on a private jet
going to Coachella, if they don't have a
boyfriend with a six-pack, if they if
they don't look just amazing all the
time, I think it creates tremendous
anxiety and unreasonable expectations.
But I do, you know, so I would argue
that who's Okay, so who's at fault?
We're at fault. in that as we keep
hoping or waiting for the better angels
of tech CEOs to show up. That's not
going to happen. I've been working my
whole life with CEOs, they're going to
make incremental decisions to do
whatever moves the stock price up.
That's their job. That's capitalism.
Their job is to take a set of resources,
figure out an offering where they get
more than they paid to garner those
resources and create shareholder value.
They will do anything to do that. That's
their job. And then we're supposed to
tax them such that we can build our
roads, take care of our veterans, and
have a set of laws so they don't get out
of control. So that they don't lie and
say, "No, smoking is not addictive." And
then our mothers, our sisters, and our
dads start dying, right? We have
regulation. We are net beneficiaries
from fossil fuels and pesticides, but we
still have an EPA and an FDA. There's
absolutely no regulation on big tech.
There's more regulation in this mic than
there is on big tech because they have
weaponized Washington and money and
Citizens United. There are more
full-time lobbyists living in Washington
DC working for Amazon, one company, than
there are sitting US senators. So, they
have very effectively avoided all
regulation to the point where they
basically run unfettered, whether it's
bots, whether it's harm to children,
whether it's letting bad actors try and
influence elections. and they in my
opinion if your content can be reverse
engineered to self harm among teens. If
your podcast if we could prove
statistically that your podcast was
resulting in self harm among teenage
girls, this podcast would be shut down.
You would be sued and you would
eventually decide to go out of business.
>> Yeah. Well, if we were harming people
appropriately so
>> I would argue big tech does that and
more every day. And these cases that
just came down actually one in LA that
found Google liable. Do you realize that
the New Mexico attorney general, do you
know what he did in his case? He created
an account posing as a 12-year-old girl
and within minutes he was getting
messages and solicitations from known
sexual abusers. That was their first
piece of evidence that if you create an
account and you say you're a 12-year-old
girl, within hours they were getting
overtures from known sexual predators.
So, the fact that this company can
target you and know that you're that I'm
wearing WBY Parkers and start serving me
ads by looking at the screen or know
that I'm at Coachella listening to David
Burn and start serving me albums of
David Burn's greatest hits, then they
can figure out that a 12-year-old girl
shouldn't be getting overtures from
55-year-old men. I'll bracket that
sentence, right?
very fair and very important statement
that if there were some balance of
optimization towards uh real protections
that that is important
>> but they made I think 11 billion last
year from people under the age of 18 but
you asked who's to blame we're to blame
because we haven't elected people who
are willing to hold these companies
accountable and they are sole mission is
to get reelected and in 97% of elections
whoever raises the most money gets
reelected and these companies are now
the fastest growing expense line amongst
big tech isn't AI as a percentage basis
it isn't R&D isn't capex it's lobbying
because the the greatest ROI in history
is spending money on politicians I give
money to politicians because I'm getting
more politically active and it doesn't
surprise me that they're [ __ ] the most
disappointing thing is what cheap [ __ ]
they are if I get $50,000 with a senator
he'll have dinner with me when he's in
New York or she because they have to
because the system is set up such that
whoever raises the most money gets
elected and big tech has figured that
out. So until we have the judgment to
elect people who are willing to stand up
to big tech and actually implement safe
and common sense regulation, I don't
want them to go out of business. Let our
thoroughbreds run. I actually believe
the the American model of less
regulation versus more is one of the
reasons we're much more successful than
Europe, which hasn't grown in 20 years.
But this has gotten to a point where we
seem to have a total lack of regard for
our children's well-being and the fact
that Americans hate each other and that
we're kind of eating ourselves from the
inside out. So again, we need an EPA and
an FDA or some sort of equivalent for
big tech, especially with AI. But I want
to acknowledge the point. None of this
could have happened without fossil
fuels. There is a trade-off here, right?
Pesticides are important for our food
safety, but there is an FDA. We have
decided to just let big tech run
unfettered. And I think it's been gotten
to the point where it's pretty damaging
for society. I think we've robbed kids.
My kids are in the kill zone, 15 and 18.
I think they've been robbed of a lot of
their youth. I understand this [ __ ] And
I have a son who has device addiction
who will lie, take his phone, say he
doesn't feel well, take his phone into
the bathroom for 45 minutes, and I have
to bang on the door and jokingly scream,
"Start masturbating." Because this kid
is addicted to Tik Tok. what the British
did to the Chinese in terms of getting
them addicted to opium. I think that the
Chinese via poor uh via poorest
platforms that are shareholder driven in
the GRU are addicting our youth and
we're going to raise a generation of
civic nonprofit and military leaders who
[ __ ] hate America. We are teaching
kids to hate each other, hate America,
hate every special interest group, hate
every ideology that doesn't fit their
own. And there's no grace around what it
means now fortunate are we to be
American. And I think at the center of
it is a total lack of regulation amongst
these incredibly brilliant companies.
The most technologically sophisticated,
deepest pocketed companies in the world
are trying to sequester our youth from
us and they're stealing youth. The
number of kids who see their their
friends every day has been cut in half
the last 20 years. there. Men between
the ages of 20 and 30 are spending less
time outdoors, Andrew, than prison
inmates. We are robbing youth because we
refuse we refuse to um regulate these
companies. So, do I want these companies
to go away? Do I think they're bad
people? No. But we have a system that
values wealth and shareholder value
above all. And so, tech CEOs and their
boards will make a series of incremental
decisions regardless of the the damage
to the public. and we have a set of
elected leaders that don't do their job
and that is they're there to prevent a
tragedy to the commons and it's
Democrats and Republicans. So, it comes
down to very boring [ __ ] Unless we
reform Citizens United, unless we
dejerrymander
uh the United States Congress, money is
going to win. And these companies have
more money. But no, I would push back. I
think these companies are starting to do
a lot of damage to our youth. I'm
worried my kids are going to grow up so
used to getting dopa so easily and
squeezing it so fast and this is your
field that we're flushing into society a
series of of young people who are so
ready for addiction because they're so
used to getting an automatic dopa by
just flipping out their phone really
fast. One thing that um I don't think
I've emphasized enough on this podcast
this and certainly not this but other
episodes as well is um a kind of reframe
around the dopamine and phones. I'm not
trying to correct you here but I think
it might be helpful for this discussion
and for people listening to um we need
to move our minds away from the idea
that the phone is providing these
dopamine hits because it's not.
The behavior with
social media, but phones generally is a
lot more akin to true clinical grade
obsessivecompulsive disorder.
>> Colleagues of mine that work on
obsessivempulsive disorder. I just want
to give a shout out to the the pioneer
of this field was a woman I I just
adored, Judith Rapaort. She passed away
recently. People can look up her obit.
There's a really nice one in the times.
Identified the brain structures
associated with this thing that we call
OCD, right? handashing, scratching, hair
pulling, you know, all the variations of
it. What defines obsessivecompulsive
disorder is that the engagement in the
behavior, the the compulsion doesn't
relieve the obsession. So to call
someone OCD because they need everything
perfect, but then when it's perfect,
they're like, "Okay, I can relax."
That's not OCD. OCD is when you engage
in a compulsive behavior over and over
again, and all it does is serve to
reinforce the obsession. That to me more
closely mimics what I see in terms of
phone use
>> than the idea that it's like no way this
amazing thing on the phone that comes
every once in a while. But after you've
spent a day or so on social media or on
YouTube, we are all engaging in a much
more passive slow degradation kind of
way that I'm sure impacts the dopamine
pathway. In fact, OCD is directly tied
to the dopamine pathway. So, I'm not
divorcing it from dopamine, but I think
if we started to look at our
relationship to the phone as more of an
induced obsessive compulsive disorder
>> than an addiction, I actually think
that's one of the potential ways out.
Not just con because words matter and
concepts matter, but because I think in
order to get out of that loop, you have
to see yourself from the outside and you
have to realize that you're being
hijacked. I think right now there's just
so much incentive for being on it, for
being in the bathroom, you looking at
the phone.
>> Look, I'm not addicted to my phone, but
I will tell you there are days when I
feel like I pick up that thing even
though I don't want to.
>> Yeah.
>> And that's different than addiction. I
know what addiction feels like. That's
not addiction. That's happening just
reflexively. People aren't even thinking
about it. The lack of awareness is is
just not there. So, you know, forgive me
for going on this on this tangent, but
as you're saying everything today, I'm
trying to think solutions and and I I
know Mark. I actually am am friendly
with Mark. So, I think they care. I do
think they care. I think they've created
something so big that it's very hard to
to navigate and keep up with
shareholders and all this stuff. But I
would love to see the world's
relationship to their phones and social
media change so that it is more in our
individual control, more uh benevolent,
>> but that's against their economic
interest and they'll fight that tooth
and nail.
>> But I wonder I wonder if there is a way
to incentivize that.
>> Well, let's talk about that. So,
>> I'm trying to think of solutions. Yeah.
>> So, let's move to solutions. Um, one
antitrust. I don't think I don't think
Meta should have ever been allowed to
buy Instagram. I think their ability,
their scale of data suppresses any
formidable competitor. Twothirds of all
social media now goes to one company.
And with a lack of competition, there's
really no oxygen for a company that
might say we're not going to allow
18-year-olds on here. Any content that's
incendiary, anything that looks like
it's been weaponized by bots or might be
from a bad foreign actor, we're not
going to allow it. I think there's a lot
of parents and a lot of people that
would like to be on that platform. The
game's over. They've won. I I don't
think Google should have been allowed to
buy YouTube. And people say, "Well,
they're great companies." If YouTube was
divested from Google, the next day
YouTube would decide to start a basic
search algorithm and Google would start
another video platform and we'd have two
competitors and there'd be lower rents
on labor and on advertisers. Competition
is an amazing thing. These companies are
a set of distinct monopolies that
extract rents from labor, from the
consumer, and from the well-being of
America. So antitrust, Senator
Clolobashar has done great work here.
Basically, she says, "I'm overrun."
She's like, "I got a staff of 60 people.
There are 200 lawyers hired by Meta and
Facebook who are doing nothing but
getting in the way of anything to do
with antitrust and giving money to
people who will delay and obuscate
anything around antitrust. do removal of
section 230 for algorithmically elevated
content. Their basic premise is we're
not in the we're not a media company.
We're just a platform. We're just
putting stuff on a board. Well, okay.
But if you decide this content gets more
views, they elevate it. They make the
decision to elevate it. And sometimes
the content they elevate is not good for
the mental health of America. It tears
of the fabric of America. I think if you
al algorithmically elevate content, you
should be subject to the same liability
as say Newscore. When News Corp and Fox
told its on-air anchors to repeat a lie
that they knew was a lie that Smartmatic
voting machines had been weaponized by
Ugo Chavez and they knew it was a lie
and then Smartmatic sues them and says
you caused us economic harm. They had to
pay $750 million fine. What happened on
Fox was a dumpster fire compared to the
nuclear mushroom cloud of what happened
on Facebook that day. But these naent
platforms which in 1997 we were trying
to give them running room. Those
protections are in place for tech
platforms that are not in place for
media companies. So if you
algorithmically elevate content, you are
now a media company. You should be
subject to the same liability as every
other media company. And then finally
three, agegate this [ __ ] The downside
of Instagram and YouTube for 15 year
olds is way greater than the upside. And
people who say to me, "Scott, this is
about parenting." That's a tell for they
don't have kids. This is where they get
their homework. And my colleague at NYU,
Adam Alter, who also has an appointment
at the psychology department, said when
you take kids off of screens totally, it
actually is more damaging to their
mental health because they're ostracized
from all social activity. So, and what's
happened, the greatest uptick in school
scores in recent history is when they do
what my buddy Jonathan Hyde suggests do,
these schools do, and they ban their
phones. So, I think there are common
sense solutions that keep a lot of the
good stuff these companies do while
recognizing, well, maybe a 14-year-old
shouldn't be spending seven hours a day
on Tik Tok or Instagram while his or her
single mother is at work and can't
police it. So, I think there are common
sense solutions and a meeting of the
minds here, but everything I propose,
they will spend tens if not hundreds of
millions of dollars to get in the way of
and make sure it never happens again.
>> I really appreciate your answer. I I
like to think that they are listening,
especially in the wake of these recent
lawsuits um where they had to pay out,
granted a drop in the ocean compared to
their total revenue. But those were very
public cases and maybe I'm overly
optimistic. I I like to think that they
care enough to pay attention. I mean,
look, many of those guys, it's mostly
guys running those companies. Now,
YouTube used to be a woman, but now most
all of them are run by guys. They have
kids. I can guarantee their kids don't
spend a ton of time on their phones that
they're
>> they send them to schools that are not
allowed to be on screens,
>> right?
>> They're doing their job. We're not doing
ours. I don't even kind of resent them.
I think Mark Zuckerberg has been
especially damaging, but they're doing
their job. Capitalist society has to
have for-profit companies that within
the bounds of law make a lot of money.
Look, you can't you can't have a navy.
You can't have innovation. You can't
have, you know, parks unless you have
the tax revenue to support this [ __ ]
So, we need our thoroughbreds to run.
They're great companies, but there's
basic common sense regulation that
should be applied that they've managed
to delay and opuscate and ensure it
never happens to them.
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>> Glad you mentioned the Navy. Recently, I
w was invited out to the Naval Academy
in Annapolis, and was had the privilege
of giving a talk to 4,000 midshipmen,
which includes both young men and women.
>> It was an amazing experience. I'll tell
you this, a guy who's been a guest on
this podcast was the one that organized
this. Coleman Ruiz has amazing life
story. He's not particularly public
facing, but amazing story um of his own
life. Um and okay, so you go there and
all these young men and women are of
course
>> in their, you know, cadet fatigues and
going about they live two to a dorm
room. Um they do PT, physical activity
every morning at 5:00 a.m. Lunch was the
most incredible experience.
>> You walk into a dining hall with
thousands of men and women. Tons of
noise.
>> Mhm.
>> A bell goes off. Everyone's quiet.
Everyone sits down. A bell goes off.
Everyone starts eating. 15 minutes
later, bell goes off. Everyone stands up
and walks out. Everyone has to play play
a sport competitively.
Everyone there is forbidden from using
their phone
>> most all of the day and night. One
member of this dormer might be studying
while their roommate is sleeping. Every
single question was about how to be a
better human being physically, mentally,
emotionally. Um, and this visit was
right in the like early days of the the
recent uh war with Iran. So, they have a
lot to worry about and they're very
close to all these things. A young woman
came up to me and told me that she's
part of the uh you know the the space
program now, the military space program.
>> Amazing. Like just a complete contrast
to everything that we're talking about.
>> I thought to myself like goodness like
these people, young people like this
still exist.
>> Yeah. All firm handshakes, all eye
contact, and by the way, every color you
could possibly imagine. Every color you
could possibly imagine, you know, um,
every stature you could possibly
imagine. Every income class I would ask
people, where are you from? You know,
part of the meet and greet. The problem
was they were like, you know, my problem
is I actually want to know about
>> uh what where people are from, what
their name is, what they're interested
in, that it can just take days, right?
But it was incredible.
>> And I thought to myself, okay, there's
hope. Like we we came out of there, our
team was like, "Yeah, like there's
hope." Okay, it's associated with the
military. I'm sure people will will
scratch at that point, but
>> like thank God that these kids and this
thing that we call the Navy exists.
>> Mhm.
>> Because it gives it was so inspiring. I
It made me level up as a 50-year-old man
who thinks these guys [ __ ] mostly
together. Emphasis on mostly. I was
like, "Whoa, I like step it up." Now,
probably their only quote unquote flaw
was I did a poll. There were a lot of
questions about nicotine
>> and I asked approximately what
percentage of the room takes nicotine
every day and I would say about 20 to
30% of the hands in the room went up.
Nicotine is in major use in young people
>> using the
>> the oral nicotines. Yeah. Which by the
way don't cause cancer but yes is very
addictive. Raise blood pressure and you
know I I'm not encouraging people to do
it. But this brings me around to a
separate point. I just wanted to kind of
paint that picture but to a separate
point. You and I have never had a public
argument, nor are we going to now, about
alcohol or about cannabis, but you and I
share somewhat different views on on
alcohol. I've been
>> very uh vocal. Um, and perhaps our most
popular episode ever was an episode on
alcohol. I didn't foresee that, but
>> um, and the deal is zero is better than
any if we're strictly looking at health.
Two per week is probably fine. If you're
going to drink more, you should probably
do a bunch of other things to reduce
inflammation and offset it and get good
sleep and etc., etc.
>> I'm not telling people what to do. They
should just know what they're doing.
>> You've made the argument quite aptly
that alcohol can be an important social
lubricant for
>> young and older people
>> so that they can socialize and have a
life.
>> I worry that if young people now drink
more, they're going to end up drinking
alone. They're gonna end up
>> masturbating into porn more alone.
>> They're gonna end up with more hangovers
after all their alone behavior. I think
what you've argued for is the notion of
healthy fraternity, healthy
>> dating and
>> socializing. You've mentioned bars a
couple times, alcohol as something that
can bring people together in a positive
way. Mhm.
>> Um, if you don't mind, if you could
elaborate on that and maybe I'll just
toss out cannabis as as another one
because cannabis has problems and I I'll
acknowledge benefits of its own.
>> So, I want to go to the first thing
first is uh I want to talk just touch on
Navy. I went to Annapolis when I was 17.
And it was because my dad was looking to
get out of paying for college and
decided I should go to Annapolis and he
took me and we did a tour and it it you
know we weren't very sophisticated and
it became so clear so fast that I was
totally unqualified for Annapolis. Like
the kids the average SAT these are these
are the finest young men and women in
the world and and also we you have to
get a recommendation from a senator and
it was just so ridiculous that we were
even there. I was just not of that
quality and that standard. But my dad
was in the Royal Navy and decided go to
Annapolis because we don't have to pay
for it. Anyways, but that was the last
time I was at Annapolis. But if I could
have one policy, so I'm advising a lot
of Democrats running for president,
which is like 40 of them right now who
all claim they're not running. They're
all running. If you call me and and say
you're really interested in my
viewpoint, it means you want my money
and you're running for president. And I
just say, "Look, that's fine. Come on
the podcast and I'll write you a check."
If I could have one policy, one blanket,
if I had a magic one, one policy, it'd
be mandatory national service. If you
look at the lowest levels of young adult
depression in the West, it's two
countries. It's Israel and Singapore.
And despite all the existential threats
facing Israel, uh they what what does
man mandatory national service do? It
gives you the sense that you're serving
the agency of something bigger than
yourself. It gives you purpose. You're
handling dangerous equipment. It's the
great equalizer. You don't care that
this gay kid is totally different than
you. You You respond to his or her
character and competence because if
you're getting fired on, you don't give
a [ __ ] how rich their father is. All you
want to know is, is this person good at
what they do? And you put people's lives
in your hands and they put their life in
your hands. And you're serving in the in
the agency of something bigger than
yourself. I spent time with an IDF
battalion
um in Israel and had the same kind of
experience it sounds like you had at
Annapolis. These are young, beautiful,
fit people outside all day meeting
friends, mentors, and mates. In
Singapore, the president there, who's
arguably one of the greatest leaders of
the last century, said, "This is the
most religiously diverse society in the
world. We're going to have ethnic
violence. There'll be a strong man who
will weaponize this diversity and get
people to turn against each other. So,
we need a different religion, and it's
going to be the flag. And we need to we
need to get people praying to the flag
again." And if you look at the great
legislation in America in the 60s and
70s, which was probably the most
productive, unified time in America,
it's because many of our elected leaders
had all served in the same uniform. And
they saw themselves as Americans before
they saw themselves as Republicans or
Democrats. And I'm not just saying
military service, senior care, donating
time at a no-kill animal shelter, being
a smoke jumper. There's a lot of ways to
serve, but I think young Americans would
benefit so enormously from getting
outside of their own circle and seeing
just how wonderful America and Americans
are and and having a chance. And not
only that, people say, "Well, it's easy
for you to say you've aged out." I can
tell you as a father of boys, if we set
it up well and invested in it, I think
they would really enjoy a rotation
through different parts of America and
different opportunities to serve. So the
one thing I would do going back to
Annapolis and the IDF and what they do
in Singapore is mandatory national
service on drinking.
First, my acknowledgement as it relates
to the intake of any substance. If it's
Andrew Huberman or Scott Galloway, defer
to Andrew Huberman's advice. I just want
to say that upfront. You just have the
qualifications and the domain expertise
here. I think personally the risks to a
25-year-old liver are dwarfed by the
risks of social isolation.
And I worry that with 40% fewer pubs now
postco in Britain and a lack of mating
and a lack of of connection that the
data I've seen and correct me if I'm
wrong that 95% of people are able to
integrate alcohol and drugs into their
life without serious consequences. If
you have a history of addiction, if you
uh for whatever reason don't enjoy it,
then by all means avoid it. If people
are telling you that you're having an
issue or a problem or it's getting in
the way of your work life or you're one
of those people that gets violent or
mean under the influence, then for God's
sakes, tone it down. But what I ask
people is to look back on their younger
days and say, "What is the most
important thing in your life?
Relationships, friendships, finding
someone to mate with." And I ask them,
"Did alcohol play a role?" You know,
it's not easy to come in and lean in for
a kiss without a glass of wine. Or let
me put it this way, it is easier with a
glass of wine. It's a lot of fun. I
smoked a lot of pot and I drank a lot of
alcohol in my 20s and in college and it
created a lot of wonderful bonding
moments. And so what I'm saying there's
a balance and a tradeoff. And what I
would suggest is that everyone needs to
make their own decision. But what scares
me is the anti-alcohol movement in
remote work has led to a level of
isolation and fewer moments where people
can bond, where people are willing to
take a risk and go up to a strange
person and say, "Hey, what's going on?"
So, I worry that the anti-alcohol
movement, what I see among young people
is that while they've demonized alcohol,
it's not that they're not getting high,
they're just doing a [ __ ] ton of drugs.
And the thing I don't like about many of
these drugs is that they're more solo
activity or small group activity. I
think alcohol is a group of people, I
like to think, meeting new strangers.
Whereas when I was in college, all the
dudes who were doing cocaine were it was
because they had no sexual currency and
they would sequester a woman who liked
cocaine and go into a bathroom.
>> That's creepy as [ __ ]
>> Totally creepy as [ __ ] And eventually
everyone's like, if a dude's into
cocaine, it means he has no game. I find
with people when they do drugs, it's a
small group of people and they sequester
and it's isolating. Whereas with alcohol
and to a certain extent with marijuana,
I found it's more social and more
bonding. So absolutely be cognizant of
your addiction history. Absolutely. Be
mindful of that or any other substance
you're addicted to. But I believe, and
I've said this, I've said this on Bill
Mer a bunch and I've gotten some [ __ ]
but I think there's some truth here. I
think young people need to drink more,
go out, and make a series of bad
decisions that might pay off. I don't
think there's anything wrong with some
alcohol. I I I worry that the risks of
loneliness
far outweigh the risks of alcohol and
that alcohol has been demonized as
something that if you take one trip of
alcohol, drink of alcohol, you're going
to get cancer or you're going to become
an addict. And I don't think the data is
there to support that.
>> I really appreciate the candid um
expression of where you stand. I agree
that isolation is worse than alcohol and
it's compounded by alcohol. So to make
that uh point clear, I went to UC Santa
Barbara. We majored.
>> Speaking of alcohol,
>> it was like it was part of the general
education.
>> I remember they had sand in the dorms.
I'm like, why didn't I go to school
here?
>> Well, you know, it did select for
alcoholism if people had that
predisposition. And you had to be
disciplined to get your work done. You
know, my messaging around alcohol was um
it was intended to land in three places.
One, people who don't like drinking but
felt that they had to got a great reason
to not drink. Many, many people wrote to
me and said, "Thank you. I always feel
like garbage after drinking. I don't
want to drink. Now I understand why why
I feel like garbage.
>> It's not that I was casting it toward a
particular age group, but there are many
people who hit their 40s or 50s and
they're like, "God, I'm aging fast and I
look like [ __ ] and I sleep like [ __ ] and
my workouts are no good." And
>> you might be drinking too much, right?
>> And then there are the optimizers. There
are people that are really just going
for maximum vitality. not just
longevity, but maximum vitality, which
is to me one of the most important
things. In any case, people should do as
they wish, but know what they're doing,
provided they're not harming anyone
else. There's one thing that I want to
>> kind of, you know, lump in with this
discussion about alcohol and your
statement, which on the top contour I
totally agree with. Go out, drink, and
make a few bad decisions and probably
some good ones, but uh badish.
>> Badish. Right. So, this is the thing.
Phones.
>> Yeah. Somebody says the wrong thing,
they loosen up too much. Now it's not a
problem. Three years ago, you might be
sitting in front of HR.
>> You might, your classmates might isolate
you, right? You were in a fraternity. I
was in a fraternity. I grew up in the
fraternity of skateboarding, punk rock
music, and just the fraternity of Y
chromosomes. Guys drink, they start
saying stupid [ __ ]
>> With phones around, stupid [ __ ] is
recorded.
>> When stupid [ __ ] is recorded, it can be
very harmful. Mhm.
>> And when you're drinking, you make less
filtered decisions about what to say
>> than when you're not drinking. So, I'm
not pushing back in that sense, but I
could understand why a guy in his 20s or
30s would be afraid. A guy that would
never ever ever push himself on a woman,
let alone something far worse, would
never ever drug somebody or anything.
So, I'm not talking about the Bill Cosby
examples or this. I'm talking about the
the fear that exists in a lot of young
guys and probably should exist in a lot
of young women too nowadays based on
what we've observed in cancel culture in
particular. I'm just going to say a lot
of white women are afraid of the Karen
movement.
>> Mhm.
>> Right. That if they say anything I think
even beloved Billy Isish whose music I
love was called out for something. She
she did a sort of impersonation of a
Asian person to famous people, right?
Okay. Always going to happen, right? But
people see famous people get into these
situations, they go, "Oh my gosh." So,
do I think Billy Isish is a No. And I
love her music. And she was mortified.
And she apologized.
>> But it's enough to make people go
>> 100%.
>> And like maybe I just stay in my room
and like scroll on Instagram, you know?
So, you can kind of get why the the fear
of drinking might also compound some of
this, you know, social media stuff that
we're talking about.
>> Yeah. So, I want to acknowledge the
point. I would like to say or I hope
that at some point I'm really glad a
camera wasn't following me around 24 by7
when I was 18. I can't imagine
>> that one time you said that one dumb
thing, right? I
>> I just can't imagine. What I do think we
are headed to though, I'd like to think
is that in an era of social media and
phones that slowly but surely we're
heading to a point of more grace where
we forgive people, especially young
people. So there, and there's been a
bunch of movements where a lot of young
people did things I really disagreed
with on campus after October the 7th. I
was less angry at them than some of the
faculty cuz I'm like, I cut an
18-year-old a lot of grace, right? Or I
try to. The thing I would push back on
is that I think there's certain looking
glasses in people's soul.
And one of like how they treat their
pets and how they behave when they're
drunk. And what I find is for people who
for every person who would say something
stupid, there's more people when they
get drunk who say, you know, I just
think you're wonderful. I'm so impressed
by you. Or walk up to a woman and say, I
just love your dress. Or, God, you have
such a beautiful smile. Or just walk up
to her to begin with and say, and
express interest. Expressing interest to
someone is a wonderful thing.
>> Or do you want to dance?
>> Yeah. It says I It says I saw you and by
the way you move and the way you smile I
I I I want you. I'm interested in you.
That's a wonderful [ __ ] thing. And so
my sense is that for for every negative
thing, it may of course increase
someone's
if someone's bad judgment is is revealed
in an awful way, they got bigger
problems in alcohol. What it also does
is lower inhibitions. And I generally
think the majority of people are good
people. And I have found that the
majority of my friends and the majority
of people I'm with
when they have a little bit of alcohol,
it lowers their inhibitions and they're
more likely to hug you and they're more
likely to say how much they appreciate
the friendship. You know,
when I when I was younger, I don't know
if you ever did this, when I had a few
drinks, I used to call my mom, you know,
and tell her how much she meant to me.
>> Don't let my mom hear that, please. I
didn't. But I I think that alcohol to a
certain extent without getting into
issues of abuse which are much bigger
lowers your inhibitions but you get to
see to a certain extent that real person
and I know a lot of people will say well
that's pathetic that you have to be the
real you under the influence but I think
a lot of people reveal some wonderful
things about themselves and also have
the courage to reveal those things to
other people and I worry that there's so
many barriers now that people young
people just aren't connecting. So I just
want to acknowledge the point. I think
you have to be really cognizant. It's
not a great idea unless you know you can
handle alcohol to drink at work at a at
a professional function. It can [ __ ] up
your whole career. Oh, I mean one thing
that I observed coming up through the
academic ranks and that just I could not
believe it that at every gathering where
you have graduate students and faculty
members and postocs they it was like the
happy hour was like sort of the
highlight of the meeting for many people
and it became the place where lot you in
theory everyone meets at the bar to talk
about the data from the day right like
at these meetings in reality
90% of the problems that existed between
faculty and students and postocs and
faculty and faculty that were
independently married and all that
stuff. Alcohol facilitated that. I
really believe that. I saw it over and
over and overs caused an immense number
of problems and it was funded by grants.
I mean, I'm not like I'm I'm a big
proponent of trying to and I I
>> have worked very very hard on the phone
to try and keep NIH funding at least
from to not getting cut and it looks
like it hasn't to not get the indirects
cut. This is a kind of academic, you
know, inside ball stuff, but looks like,
you know, it could be far better, but,
you know, at least the cuts that were
going to happen didn't happen. So, I I I
the NIH funded my career. I wouldn't be
here if it wasn't for the NIH. I had
grants, reviewed grants, etc. But the
idea that you could spend money on
alcohol, right, back way back when and
then people were gathering around
alcohol, it created a lot of problems.
Now, students drinking with other
students, less of an issue.
>> Well, let me let me propose some
negative reaction.
I think they should study and and
thoughtfully consider lowering the
drinking age back to 18. I live in the
UK and see by your face where this is
going. I live in the UK.
>> Military drinking age 18. I mean, I like
some of the things.
>> Well, if you're in the military, you can
drink under the age of 21 because the
idea is that if you're going to die for
your country, you should be able you're
adult enough to order a drink. So,
>> at least the logic is there.
>> That makes sense, right? But in the UK,
if you're with an adult at a meal, you
can order a beer at 17. And even without
an adult at the age of 18 in a pub, you
can order a beer. And when my son comes
home, he doesn't do it as often as I
would like, but when my son comes home
on the weekends from boarding school, I
like to take him to a local pub and we
have a beer. And I found out that after
one beer, he's more inclined to tell me
a little bit about what's going on with
him. And as a father, all you really
want, you just really want conversation
with your kids. You want to know what's
going on with them. And so he doesn't
get drunk. He He's not into alcohol. He
listens to you. He listens to other
people. is very wary of it. But I find
that easing young men and young women
into alcohol
as opposed to 21 and then they kind of
go, I don't know. I wonder if I wonder
if we should be lowering the drinking
age. And the reason we raised it was
Mothers Against Drunk Driving were very
effective and very on point because of
all the young people who were dying in
automobile accidents.
>> Remember that era?
>> I think it's gone way down because of
Uber and because of airbags. So, I'm
proposing, would it make sense to do a
study on whether you'd have more social
connection and perhaps less alcoholism
later in life if you let kids ease into
it at the age of 18? And if they can be
drafted, we're now trying to get, you
know, the administration is proposing
they be drafted. So, if a kid can be
drafted, shouldn't he or she have the
judgment to know when they can order a
beer or not?
>> All great arguments. I didn't know we
were going to end up with
>> Well, when you talk about cannabis, I
want to get your view.
>> Yeah. I smoked a [ __ ] ton of pot in
college. I can make a bong out of any
household item. I learned every line
from planet.
>> Got to make a pipe out of an apple.
That's a very That's like a 90s trick,
>> dude. That's That's sophomore. I can I
can I I can go much better than that.
Anyways, but then 22, got a job at
Morgan Stanley, got very focused on
getting my [ __ ] together, and I
basically didn't smoke for 20 or 25
years now. I have trouble sleeping. I
have trouble winding my brain down. And
I take edibles. I do edibles probably
twice a week. If I'm amped or think I'm
going to have a tough time sleeping,
I'll take a 5 milligram edible. The
stuff that takes you down, I forget
which one that is. And it's been an
enhancement to my life. But I'm reading
a lot of stuff about potential psychosis
or whatever.
>> Not for you. You're like the psychosis
predisposition doesn't apply. You would
already know. You'd be psychotic by now.
>> There you go. Or I just haven't
acknowledged it. But it's been accretive
to my life. I really enjoy THC and I I
do it packaged so I know where it's come
come from. I like edibles because I like
the dosing of it. But I would argue that
THC is um something when my mom had
stomach cancer. Um I was living with her
and the only thing that worked for her
nausea was marijuana. And I I found
myself literally Andrew on the streets
of downtown Las Vegas trying to score
marijuana cuz I was too scared to travel
with it. And this was 20 July of 2004.
And I thought, Jesus Christ, here I am
on a street corner in this weird place
in Vegas trying to score marijuana for
my mom who has stomach cancer. So, you
know, I I I think there's some benefits
to Well, I'll stop there, but THC usage
I enjoy. I think it's been additive to
my life.
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>> Yeah, I think with THC, it's highly
individual. uh young males in particular
who have a predisposition genetic
predisposition to psychosis or bipolar
disorder need to be really careful
especially with high concentration THC
not just the edibles but they do need to
be careful I think that um young again
mostly young men who are challenged with
um apathy obesity self-loathing porn
masturbation addiction shouldn't be
using THC I I think
high agency, that seems to be the term
nowadays, right? Work the the guys that
you mentor, you know, a year in who are
um working out three times a week and
they're they have a goal and they're
hopefully seeking or in a relationship.
They have a different self view of
themselves. And um yeah, I I don't see
why that couldn't be a part of their
week. It'll nuke their REM sleep, you
know, to be specific. If they come off,
their dreams are going to be wild
because they'll get more REM sleep. But
creatives, there are a number of
creatives who can use it uh
appropriately to increase focus, get
them out of anxiety or get them to cope
with anxiety. And then there just as
many people that take it and it makes
them incredibly anxious.
>> So I think it's it's sort of on what
backdrop. And I think the alcohol thing
also is on what backdrop. If somebody's
overweight, not working out, you know, a
a guy in their 20s or 30s that's dealing
with, let's just paint a picture here.
He's like playing video games. He's not
like morbidly obese or anything, but
he's like kind of overweight and he's
kind of feels like [ __ ] He shouldn't be
drinking and smoking weed. He should be
going to the gym and get himself in
shape and then maybe have a couple beers
a week with his buddies. So, the context
really matters.
>> Well, I would argue never do substances
alone
>> and and during the week, try not to do
substances if you got to be on point the
next day. that it's something to be, you
know, it's a recreation. The thing I'm
curious to get your take on is one of
the things I'm working with some young
men on is um I think the most
underressearched addiction is porn. And
my fear is that
I mean, if you look at what again I go
back to big tech, big tech's trying to
convince young men, why go through the
pecking order and the effort of trying
to develop a friend group when you have
Reddit and Discord? Why go through the
[ __ ] of putting on a tie and trying
to go into the office and make a good
living and navigate the corporate world
when you think you can make money
trading stocks or crypto on Robin Hood
or Coinbase? And why would you go
through the effort, the expense, the
potential rejection of trying to have a
kindness practice, look good, work out,
endure rejection, all the expenditures
of going out and trying to get a date
when you have lifelike porn. And I'll
use myself as an example. When I was at
UCLA,
I graduated from UCLA with a 2.27 GPA,
which isn't easy because it means you
almost I failed nine classes, right? And
I still graduated. And by the way, talk
about a different age. We were both
children of the University of
California, UC San Diego. Talk about how
blessed we are. Talk about how just what
winds hurricane like winds we had in our
sales of prosperity. When I applied to
UCLA, admissions rate was 74%. Now it's
nine. Graduated with a 2.27. You know
what happened? Berkeley let me into
graduate school with a 2.27 GPA. But
anyways, back to UCLA. One of my
motivators for going on campus was that
I there was a non-zero probability that
I might meet a woman, establish contact
with her, see my buddies, maybe get her
to a fraternity party, or get her to go
on a date with me, and maybe at some
point be physical with her. That was an
enormous motivator for me. If I had
lifelike porn on my phone on my computer
screen 24 by7, I don't know if I would
have been as motivated to go on campus
as much and I there was little margin
for error in terms of going on campus a
few less times. And I worry that that
mojo, that desire to quite frankly go
out and make your own bad porn is being
reduced so much with lifelike porn that
men aren't evolving into risk-taking,
aggressive in a positive way men who are
motivated to dress well, to work out, to
approach strange women, to go through I
mean, it is hard. It is hard to find a
partner. And what I say to these men is
welcome to the [ __ ] work week. It's
been hard forever. That's the whole
point. Women are choosier than men. And
there's a reason, right? We're trying to
spread our seat to the four corners of
the earth. They put up a much finer
screen to pick the smartest, fastest,
and strongest seat. And that's the
reason why our kids are going to be
smarter and taller than us. That's the
way of the world. But when you reduce
that desire, it's going to get in the
way of not only you finding a mate, but
developing the skills to be successful
in all other parts of your life. So,
back to the basic premise, I wonder and
worry if porn is the most underresarched
addiction and the damage it's having on
young men because what I see amongst my
colleagues and I'd be curious if I
actually spoke to a really thoughtful
woman about this who's an addiction
professor at Stanford. I'm sure you know
her. I forget her name.
>> Analym.
>> Yeah. She runs our dual diagnosis.
>> Fantastic.
>> Amazing woman. Amazing human being.
immediately when we got off the podcast
said to me, "If your marijuana ever
becomes a problem, just call me." And
she was sincere. And I'm like, "That's
totally,
>> do you sense it?" Immediately,
>> she's the real deal.
>> I'm like, "Do you sense it's a problem?"
I'm like, "Hold me, Anna." Anyways, but
I don't think there's enough really good
research out there on porn because I
don't think people want to be known as
the porn professor. And so, I worry that
we really don't know the impact. And
what I see anecdotally is that I see a
lot of young men who don't have that
healthy fire because they think that
they can just they think oh it's like in
the in the last 20 years the guys who
didn't have their own game or didn't
want to be that successful they would go
to some low-income country and basically
become sex. This has become I think a
much broader version of that that rather
than level up you'd rather just sit home
and get a reasonable faximile of a
relationship or sex with porn. I wonder
if that is more damaging than than
people than uh people estimate right
now.
>> Yeah, it's a a really important topic
and it's one that people contact me
about all the time. Your analogy of
what's happening with porn to sex. We
should probably explain what expats are
people that leave the United States. I'm
not sure everyone's going to follow that
one. Sex expats are the it's a this
community of people that what I think
they go to Southeast Asia or something
and um
>> where they can or South America where
they can essentially buy whatever
experience they want
>> in general. I have to assume I've truly
never done this and nor do I have any
interest, but I have to assume that
these are men who just basically figure
well that's low effort once they have
the money and real dating, real real
sex, if I may, you know, um is it takes
some work. It takes some learning and
you know, especially if you want to be
told genuinely good job and and uh and
know that it's true. It's going to take
you're going to you have to get some
reps in there.
>> So, um put your ego on the line. um
learn to communicate, learn to listen,
all that stuff.
>> The idea that porn is is the much
broader and and more destructive um
analogous thing I think is is bullseye.
The moment you said like I think people
need to hear that. Do you want to be
that guy? I think I think with any
behavioral change, you know, the
neuroscientist in me says, okay, we have
circuits for kind of like things that
are aversive to us. Like you have to
engage the aversion and you have to
engage the the appetitive aspect, right?
Right. Like so that there's a win and
then there's something to avoid. I I
really think in order to get any real
behavioral change, you need to push away
from something and towards something
else. Okay. So I think that porn I mean
it's our most fundamental wiring. The
two the two circuits in the brain that
really crank out dopamine.
>> Mhm.
>> Okay. Circuits for reproduction sex.
>> Mhm.
>> And anger. There's this incredible study
by a very uh controversial guy named
Robert Heath in the 1960s. He was a a
neurosurgeon who would stimulate
different areas of the brain and um
unfortunately he was um into conversion
therapy. So, you know, he appropriately
got run out of science for trying to
make gay people straight by stimulating
certain areas of the brain. Yeah, he's
kind of a piece of [ __ ] person. But
again, let's look at what he did
separate from that. Immediately people
were like, I don't care about his data.
But he gave people with electrodes in
their brain in certain studies the
option to stimulate anywhere they
wanted. They could stimulate and get
sexual arousal. They could get laughter.
They could feel drunk. all the things
we're talking about really. They could
feel soothing of the sort that their
mother was holding them. The area that
they chose to stimulate the most is in
the central midline nucleus of the
phalamus, an area that my lab has spent
a lot of time on in other situations.
And they would just lever press and
lever press and lever press for the
feeling of mild frustration and anger
>> because the arousal associated with it
is its own reinforcement. as a student
of mine who's now hopefully soon to be a
faculty member. I won't name the
university, but she has an offer from a
phenomenal university. Her name is
Lindsay Cleet and she's worked on this
in a very very mechanistic way. When
we're angry, when we're frustrated,
the link to the dopamine circuitry is
just pounded out. We just all day long.
And what's amazing is it doesn't
attenuate. There's no threshold for
anger. The more angry you get, the more
frustrated you get, the more arousal you
feel from that. You never satiate.
There's no postcoidal bliss. There's no
my belly is so full, I feel like I'm
going going to explode.
>> And so this gets to the social media
thing, too. That's the circuit that I
worry about. And I think that's the
circuit that yes, I think tech, big tech
has tapped into whether they want to or
not. And I think that that's the one we
really have to be careful of. And um and
I've experienced it myself. I think I
actually in this moment I'm experiencing
a little bit of it like that kind of
arousal of like yes the the forward
center of mass that we feel but when
it's [ __ ] them like [ __ ] the Republicans
and you know or [ __ ] the left or the
extreme w I mean that's people are just
high all day long on their own anger and
frustration
>> and I think we just see it everywhere
and and I raise my hand I'm sure I'm
guilty of this at times too. Yeah,
that's illuminating because I correlate
my anger to a pathway to feeling
depressed. I struggle with anger and
depression and it usually starts as
something triggers me. I get really
angry and then I feel like my blood
turns to some sort of corrosive acid and
it just wears me down
>> and I'm just replet. I'm just depleted
for two or three days. So, I was I I
have a practice around trying to calm my
anger, but just hearing you say that
occasionally on one of my podcasts when
I see something that's inherently wrong
and I point it out or injust, I do feel
like a rush, like I'm being a leader or
a baller or pointing something out.
>> You are. It's I mean, I will say, you
know, testosterone, a conversation we've
had a little bit before offline,
>> at the level of the brain, it makes
effort feel good. Mhm. Anyway, I I don't
want to go off on a too much of a
tangent, but I'd like your thoughts
about how testosterone can be leveraged
for good versus bad. And maybe even I
don't know that we put everyone on
testosterone. I'm not suggesting that it
can nuke your fertility if you don't do
other things to offset it. So, uh, kids
be careful, but what are your thoughts
on testosterone and just sort of
proactive
male behavior, testosterone in adults,
older generations taking testosterone?
Well, I'm one of them. I'm on tea
therapy and I do it because I quite
frankly want to feel younger. It makes
me stronger in the gym, better
erections, even weird things like my
skin. The way I would describe tea
therapy is it just kind of took me back
three or five years to in the gym. So,
I'm an advocate for it. I'm You should
do it under the guidance of a doctor,
which I'm doing, but I'm a fan of it.
And I think you've done really
interesting work about hormone
replacement theory. I've listened to a
lot of your work on it. The argument
around testosterone and masculinity, I
think, is a really important one in the
political spectrum because to the far
right's credit, they recognize the
problem with young men before anybody
else. The problem is they conflate
masculinity with coarseness and cruelty.
And their solution was to take
non-whites and women back to the 50s.
>> Some of them, I I'm not trying to
protect them, but I would say uh you
know, I don't know his political
leanings, but my friend Jaca Willink has
daughters. He's not that guy you just
described. I'm talking about the far
right. I'm talking about whether it's
Donald Trump or the, you know, quote
unquote the traditional manosphere. It's
about the subordination of women and
it's about demonstrating a certain
harshness and coarseness and I would
argue cruelty and conflating that with
masculinity. Whereas the far left, and
this isn't helpful either,
their advice to young men is to act more
like a woman and that they conflate
masculinity with toxicity. And there has
to be something in the middle. There has
to be an aspirational form of
masculinity. And I would argue that we
need to celebrate that initiation
aggressiveness or you know Jimmy Carr
who's one of my idols now says all right
you can you can demonstrate cruelty or
you can demonstrate valor. You can be a
lover or you can be an addict. And
Richard Reeves has this great saying
he's like you want a man to be
invaluable in a shipwreck but acceptable
at a dance. So there is a certain needle
to be threaded here. But the Carnegie
award which is given out to people who
put their own physical safety in danger
to save someone else's physical safety.
It's literally the running into a
burning house award. You see a car on
fire, you put your own safety in harm's
way to try and protect someone else's
physical well-being. They gave out 83
awards last year. 75 of them were men.
Men are more prone to take those types
of not only bad risks but good risks and
we need to celebrate that. Now you need
both. You need both on the by the way on
the combat field because men are more
likely to rush out and try and save
their comrade but women are more likely
to say let's not be stupid. Let's think
this through. You need both of those.
You I mean this is the great thing is
that both energy when they come together
make a better world but we seem to be
very um suspicious of that masculine
energy right now. And I think it needs
to be celebrated. There needs to be
someone who sees movement in the tribe
and immediately grabs the spear and goes
and tries and kill it for the benefit of
the community, who wants to put people
on Mars and makes these crazy,
ridiculous investments that make no
sense and is super aggressive around
these things. I think that's a wonderful
energy. And when I went to the
Democratic National Convention, I saw a
parade of special interest groups
talking about the very real issues they
all face. But I didn't see one mention
of the group that has fallen further
faster than any group in in recent
history, and that is young men. Well, I
think that's because based on the
feedback I've received, for instance,
when we had Terry Reel on the podcast
who talks about, you know, some balance
of masculine and feminine uh phenotypes
and therapy and partner partner
communication and these kinds of things.
The push back that I always get for or I
got there um not because of Terry
specifically was as long as we can't
talk about toxic femininity, these were
clearly men writing to me, then um this
whole discussion feels imbalanced.
That's how they feel. They feel like
there's the this idea that they're good
men and they're bad men and they're
really bad men.
>> Totally agree. I, you know, I'm I've got
the optics of a, you know, Mac monkey
blindfolded on LSD when it comes to
certain thing members of our species,
but when it comes to men, I grew up in a
big group of boys, etc. Big group of
men. I get it. That statement is true.
There are great ones, they're ones, and
then they're like really bad dudes. So
when you talk about manosphere, you
know, the I would say it the if I had my
way, manosphere would apply to just the
really bad ones because that name has
become synonymous with really bad men.
Okay, we can come back to that perhaps.
But
>> there is this issue that no one is
allowed to say there's wonderful
femininity. There's women with issues,
right? And then there's bad women.
You're not allowed to say it. The only
women that I can have that conversation
with are lesbians. They were the ones
who explained to me there are truly bad
women. And I said, well, how come no one
talks about that except lesbians? Cuz
they said, ah, because we are living in
a time now where men talking about women
or having things they wish for women to
do differently itself is seen as toxic.
that they've that women feel this is
what I was told so I'm regurgitating
that they've suffered so much at the
hands of men that we need like a good 20
or 30 years before we're ready to get to
that conversation
>> which of course for young men growing up
just p like makes them feel like okay
it's all it's all on us
>> and that's good like agency advocacy for
one's own life is important stay out of
the really bad men category and ideally
the not so good men category too but
this the the polarization I think is set
by the fact that sure we can talk about
toxic mas masculinity. We can talk about
the male crisis, but why aren't we
talking about the suicide rate? Well,
because women's issues, we're I think at
a in a good way, we're still thinking
that we need to protect and provide for
the women and the children in our
society. We're holding that as in the
highest regard like those they get the
life rafts on the Titan when the Titanic
goes down. So, you know, it's it's it's
complicated and there's a lot of
offlimits terms and I'm glad that
they're coming up today just organically
because those offlimits terms I think
are the potential bridges between the
where we sit now where we look at men
and we go, "Oh [ __ ] they're a mess.
Some of them are just like downright
awful." We look over here and we go,
"Man, they're really dissatisfied." The
assumption is if a woman is dissatisfied
or somehow not doing well, that a man
failed.
That's a presumption that a lot of
people make. I don't make that
presumption and I can look back to times
in my youth where '9s narrative probably
fed that a bit. But now I think we we
need to really like pull back the veil
and go like who are like take a real
hard look at ourselves and try and you
know do this mesh that we're talking
about.
>> Yeah. The only way you get there is with
data. So from 1945 to 2000 America
registered a third of the world's
economic growth, a third of its
prosperity with only 5% of the
population. So we had 6x the growth of
the rest of the world, right? And within
that 6x, the majority of that prosperity
was sequestered to the one-third of the
population that were white, male, and
heterosexual. It was just a lot harder
to participate in that uplift if you
weren't in that group. So men of my
generation born with my sexual
orientation, skin color, and gender
arguably had 15 to 18x the wins in their
sales. The question is, should a young
man now pay the price for my privilege?
And I understand the gag reflex when I
start talking or advocating for men
because they look at me and they said,
"You had unfair advantage." 100% guilty
as charge. But now a young man who is
four times as likely to kill himself,
three times as likely to be addicted, 12
times as likely to be incarcerated. and
men of my generation aren't stepping up
and providing the mentorship or voting
for the programs that might take a
little bit of money away from my
generation to support all young people
and bring them up. And most of the
programs and policies I advocate for
would would advocate for all young
people. The average 70-year-old is 72%
wealthier than the 7-year-old 40 years
ago. The 25-year-old is 24% less
wealthy. And then every day it's speed
balled with 110 notifications telling
them that they're failing. And what do
you know? They're the most obese,
depressed, and anxious generation we've
had in a long time. And there really
isn't an honest conversation, and I've
said this on stage, and it gets some
push back. I'll say I think women make
better managers. I think that they are
more emotionally in touch with other
people. They have higher EQ. I think
they'll probably make better doctors and
lawyers. I think their attention to
detail genetically or or
anthropologically, whatever you want to
call it, their bedside manner and
there's more women in both law school
and medical school now, especially
medical school.
If I say that women are better managers,
will make better doctors nodding.
Everyone, everyone, the women agree and
the guys will look around and go nod,
right? If I say men on average make
better entrepreneurs and that's not to
say that women shouldn't be offered the
same opportunities and they haven't
been, right? 95% of the capital has been
not only allocated to men, but the
majority of it has been allocated by men
who went to one or two schools, Harvard
and Stanford. There's I don't feel safe
around you.
>> Who doesn't feel safe around you?
>> It's fine to say women are make better
X, Y, and Zed.
>> To say men are better at anything
combat soldiers.
>> I mean, let's be honest. If you said it
on X, everyone would be like, cool entre
males make better entrepreneurs. If you
said it in a room, I mean I again I
don't want to make this political but we
can't we you know we can't avoid this.
You know if you said it among a more
right center to right leaning crowd I
think you'd probably get less push back
also from women.
>> I think that's fair.
>> I'm not saying it's who you're hanging
out with. You know that's
>> I barely hang out with anybody. So I've
got a very small world but
>> well but to your point if you go to the
Democratic national website dnc.org And
they changed this, but I talked about
this a lot on CNN, left-leaning website.
They they said they have a page say who
we serve. And they outlined 16 special
interest groups, veterans, the disabled,
black Americans, Native Americans,
seniors. And I added it up and it was
74% of the population. And when you say
you're advocating for 74% of the
population, you're not advocating for
74%. You're discriminating against 26%.
And basically the only people they
didn't mention were young men. So I
understand the notion that men have had
so much disproportionate advantage that
there needs to be a catch-up period. But
I would argue it's gone a little bit
overboard. Our school system K through
12 I would argue is biased against boys.
A boy is twice as likely to be suspended
on a behavior adjusted basis as a girl.
A black boy five times as likely. 70 to
80% of K through2 teachers are women.
Who do people naturally advocate for?
The people to remind them of themselves
at that age. 7 to 10 high school
valictorians are girls. It's now 6040
female male in college. And so the
bottom line is we leveled the playing
field and there's a little bit of bias
and women have totally blown by men.
Fine. More power to them. But what do we
do now that young men just quite frankly
don't have obvious paths to prosperity
and young people aren't as economically
prosperous relative as they used to be?
and young men are disproportionately
evaluated in society, especially in the
mating market on their economic
viability. And I get a ton of push back
saying, "No, I'm just looking for an
emotionally in touch male." I think that
is such [ __ ] Oh,
>> it's total [ __ ]
>> There's still economic hypergamy.
Educational hypergamy has leveled out.
There's a lot of people who women who
will marry a guy who didn't go to
college or there e educational hypergamy
has vastly reduced. But in cities where
women makes make as much as men, so
there's an equality. If you find a
couple, twice as many couples, the male
earns more money than the woman.
Economic hypergamy is still an
absolutely full full force. So if we
don't figure out a way to level up all
young people economically such that what
is more passed for economic viability
for young men, I think it's just going
to tear out our society. We're going to
have a lower birth rates, fewer people
to support the very expensive programs
which make up 40% of our government
spending now on people over the age of
65. And we're going to have real issues.
And people say, "Well, that's repackaged
violence that men are more violent." I'm
like, "No, it's just the reality. If you
look at every unstable, violent society
in history, it always has one thing at
the core of it, and that is a group of
young men with a lack of economic or
romatic opportunities. I don't care if
it's Weimar, Germany, or some of the
most unstable places in the Middle East
or Africa. when you have the most
dangerous person in the world is a young
man who is lonely and broke and we are
producing way too many of them. And by
the way, I don't think the remedy here
is affirmative action for men. I just
think that's too politicized. But we
have to stop transferring wealth from
people their age to people my age. Why
the hell are we transferring every year
$1.3 trillion from a generation that is
the most anxious, depressed, and obese
in American history to the wealthiest
generation in the history of the planet
called Social Security? That's a third
realm in politics. I'm not suggesting
anyone should die in poverty. Should you
and I get social security?
>> No. We don't need it. No, I don't need
it. I mean, they don't need it.
>> Probably a third uh a third of seniors
really don't need social security. But
you get near that, you can't get
elected, right? 40% of all government
spending is going to people over the age
of 65. It's going to be 50% within 10
years. We spend more money on ICE than
we spend on children. I mean, it's just
there's my generation. I don't even
think of us. I'm I'm on the edge of Gen
X baby boomer. The best way to describe
my generation would be the vampire
generation. We were never drafted into
war. We never really had to serve. And
what has my economic complexion been in
America? Unprecedented prosperity, but
the lowest taxes in in modern history.
So, a lot of these solutions I just
think are common sense. We need to do
away social security tax, right? 6% up
to 160,000. So, a kid working for me
making 150 or 160k, good living, they
pay $9,000. I make a lot more than that.
I pay $9,000 because it tops out at 160
grand. Why does that make any sense? Who
two biggest tax deductions, mortgage
interest rate and capital gains? Who
owns homes and stocks? People our age.
Who rents and makes their money from
current income? All the dudes in this
office, the young kids, right? We are
literally transferring trillions of
dollars from young people to old people.
And we wonder why young men feel anxious
when they are dispro 75% of women say
economic viability is key to a mate.
It's only 25% of men. Women still look
at men as economic providers. And so you
have this entire generation of young men
who feel like they have no purpose, no
on-ramps to the middle class and are
being evaluated on a set of criteria
that get harder and harder for them each
year. And then this like unbelievable
set of expectations that they're taught
they should have because it seems like
everyone else is making a million
dollars selling ETH or is in amazing
shape or has a ridiculously hot
boyfriend or girlfriend and has artist
passes to Coachella. So it'd be shocking
if they weren't depressed and obese.
>> Wow. Um the analogy that comes to mind
is uh academic science. you know uh
there's I used to joke you know the
advantage of having a dad who was a
scientist who was also a little bit
irreverent uh was that I grew up around
an understanding of how academics works
and and uh early on I thought as much as
I love my colleagues like a lot of them
need to retire they just need to go
>> 100%
>> and the reason they need to go is
because they were having three four two
to four NIH grants like million-dollar a
year grants and and that itself isn't a
problem except that there wasn't enough
money for young investigators And so
fields die and science dies. They don't
retire. And so it was very interesting
right before the Trump administration
came in, I started logging into these
NIH hearings and and I think our
previous NIH director and I will go on
record and saying and our current NIH
director Jay Bacharia both very good
directors in different ways trying to do
important different things and you'll
notice the budget was not cut under Jay
and IDC for the academics out there was
not cut but an interesting problem was
outed at the kind of end of Carolyn's
role at NIH the former director and it
was the following
Someone said,
"What is the deal? Why are people living
longer and young people are killing
themselves and we have all these mental
health issues, mostly among men, but
also a young among young women?" and she
said, "It is true that we've been very
successful in medicine at getting people
65 and older to live much much longer to
treat latestage diabetes, to treat
cancer, to treat uh we don't have cures
for these things, but we've extended
life for the older generation and to a
large degree the quality of life,
especially if they're willing to get
sunlight, exercise, probably not drink
alcohol at that age or drink a lot less,
not smoke. people are living longer and
longer and longer and tons of research
money is being poured into this. There's
this enormous gap where many of the
problems that are most important to
young people to thrive in every way, not
just health, but mental health, etc.,
they're just not even being studied. So,
there's this top waiting of age and of
seniority clearly in what you're
describing, but also in the science and
that that we're funding. And that
clearly clearly harms young people
because no one's studying porn addiction
in a serious way at scale. Nobody's
studying social media addiction in a
serious way at scale. I think what
Jonathan's done is fantastic and others
are now getting involved in this. But
you know it's a problem if you look at
the numbers as serious as cancer for
people who are you know in their 50s and
older and actually cancers and diabetes
and and u deaths of despair as our
previous uh you know surgeon general
pointed out uh are among the greatest
killers of young people. So we've
totally lost perspective in many ways. I
don't know what to do about social
security. That's your domain, not mine.
But I vote very strongly for what they
do in Japan. Force scientists to retire.
I'm going to earn some hate from my
colleagues, but anyway, force them to
retire at 65. They still collect a
salary and a and in many cases a a
pension if they're state funded schools.
They still have health care. Their kids
still probably went to college partially
for free. The inside ball of these
schools that you and I work at, right?
This whole network. They got in
>> and they got in. And so
let them retire, let them keep their
office. I don't I do believe there's a
lot of wisdom in the older generations.
But I was quite happy to
>> There was your land acknowledgement. Let
me let me go in.
>> Oh well. Well, I just want to say there
were senior faculty members like Lubbert
Strier, I'll just call these people out
who wrote the book biochemistry. Anyone
there? Lubbert retired, closed his lab.
He made a bunch of money at Aphimatrix,
the gene ship company. And he used to
come around to the lab and go, "Hey,
what are you guys working on?" He would
talk to the students and give them
amazing ideas. I think that generational
wisdom passed down is great. Guess what
he wasn't doing? Consuming grant
dollars, consuming square footage on
campus. He was shedding knowledge for
free because the system has taken
>> he's a Yoda, but he's an outer.
>> So you work at Stanford, one of the
finest faculties ever assembled. NYU has
an outst at the business school, we have
an outstanding faculty. I would argue
one of the best in the world. Not
because it's our fault, but because
every great faculty member loves the
idea of coming and spending 4, 8, 10
years in New York and living in Soho.
Sounds pretty good.
>> That's our advantage. Hey, come here.
We'll give you free housing. You and
your wife, your kids are out of the
house. Come teach accounting here. We
get amazing faculty. A third should be
out put on a [ __ ] ice flow. They get
to a point where they darn adding as
much value. They were the bomb on gap
one accounting in 1988. They get tenure
and they won't leave. And they leave
feet first. And the result is young
people who could bring a certain
creativity, a new way of looking at
things. There's no room for them to come
up. And I want to go back to the notion
of vampire generation. We talk about
sunlight, being social, eating well,
sleeping well, all the keys, right? I
would argue the number one predictor of
longevity. It's one thing, money.
China's gone from an average life
expectancy of 47 to 77 in 60 years as
their wealth has gone up. You're in the
bottom decile, I believe, of income. You
live 12 years less long than someone in
the upper desile. Right? It's about
money. And all we have done is not only
suck money from young to old, we have
sucked life because we are so selfish
and so unwilling to pay it forward. Old
people elect even older people to vote
themselves more money. And what they are
doing maybe unwittingly, but they are
doing it is they are robbing life and
happiness from young people and
transferring it to old people. There not
only needs to be term limits. Washington
DC, the people allocating capital has be
become a cross between the Golden Girls
and the land of the walking dead. enough
already. We have totally robbed and not
only money, we have robbed life and
health from young people because money
in our society is health. How do we
create financial incentives inside of
uniqueness? I think that's what makes
the United States great because I saw
social media that way. But I will say
that's cuz it worked out that way for
me. I love learning. I love teaching. I
flipped on a camera and I started the
podcast with that guy sitting over there
and it worked out great. The way I would
describe the transition that's been bad
for America is that the way I would
describe it is that back when I was
growing up, America had a commitment to
and even loved the unremarkable. I was
remarkably unremarkable. And I'm not
that's not a humble brag. I got 1130 on
the SAT, had a 3.1 GPA. We didn't have
any money, but this is what I got. I got
assisted lunch, right? And the great
state of California used to send coupons
to my house that were the same colors
the kids would buy in school so I
wouldn't be embarrassed. Right. I got
Pell grants. I got accepted to UCLA on
appeal. 74% admissions rate. I got I was
one of the 26% that didn't get in and I
was installed in Sheling. Came home
really upset one day and said, "Is this
my life?" I was always told I was funny.
I wanted to be a doctor. And my mom
said, "Well, is there an appeal
process?" And I remember the day the
admissions director called me and said,
"You're not qualified, but you're a son
of California. We're going to give you a
shot."
>> A son of California.
>> Son of California. What a great
statement. I get I get emotional just
thinking about it.
>> And then I got, as I said, I got into
Berkeley. And this is a this is a brag
and a flex, but I'm going to make it.
I've given 20 million bucks back to the
University of California in the last
five years.
>> Awesome.
>> So, it's worked out for all of us.
America isn't about identifying a super
class of rich kids and the freakishly
remarkable. It's about betting on
unremarkable kids. So this is what we
need to do. We need if you're a
university and you have more than a
billion dollar endowment and you're not
growing your freshman class faster than
population, you're a hedge fund with
classes and you should lose your taxfree
status. If a 20% of your degrees aren't
for non-traditional non-traditional
things such as nursing or specialy
construction or vocational programming,
you don't get access to tax-free money.
in my opinion, mandatory national
service. I think there's a ton of things
we need to do. I think we should tax the
[ __ ] out of private schools and reinvest
that in public schools. We need to
disassociate house property taxes from
the quality of the schools. Think about
the disadvantage kids. The average
public school spends $15,000 a year on a
kid. The kid uh schools in poor area is
9,000. The average private school spends
$72,000 a year per student. So if you're
fortunate enough to go to a private
school like my kids, we're spending 850
grand on them and some kids were
spending 120 grand and you want that kid
to compete against another kid to get
into an elite university. And we all
tell ourselves this myth now that oh
with AI the college doesn't matter. It's
never been more important. And if you
had a drug that can make it twice as
likely that you get married, half as
likely that you kill yourself, three
times as likely that you become a
millionaire, 10 times as likely that you
run for office, four times as likely
that you become an officer in the
military, three times less likely that
you become obese, would you hoard that
drug? And then when someone gets into
the the working environment or the or
the economy, would you create a tax
policy that just transfers money from
you to the wealthiest generation in the
world? There's just so many basic common
sense solution around higher ed and K
through 12 that we come up with all
these reasons. We use terms like network
effects or globalization or tech and
it's nothing but thinly veiled [ __ ]
to transfer more money. The bottom 99%
and young people are just nutrition for
older people and it's just to me it's
fairly obvious. They're just common
sense solutions. And higher ed has
become unfortunately
an emblematic of the rejection LVMHing
of America where you either at the age
of 18 have to be freakishly remarkable.
Are you captain of your lacrosse team
and building wells in Africa? Then fine,
come in and we'll put you on a glide
path to potentially being a billionaire
or president. But say you're
unremarkable. Sorry, you're [ __ ] out of
luck. Maybe maybe you can build a data
center somewhere and maybe get into the
middle class. And by the way, we don't
even have an apprentice culture in this
environment. So many parents feel so
shamed when their kid doesn't get into
elite university. 11% of LinkedIn
profiles in Germany and the UK say
apprentice. It's 3% here because parents
feel shamed if their kid doesn't get
into an elite university. We need to
dramatically expand vocational
programming, freshman classes, and stop
this insane transfer of wealth and
health from young people to old people.
and higher ed. Unfortunately, our
industry is at the tip of the spear of
fermenting this rejectionist [ __ ]
culture where we've identified we're the
arbiters of success. You know who gets
into Stanford and NYU? Two cohorts. The
children of rich people. You're 77 times
more likely to get into elite university
if you're a top 1% household or the
freakishly remarkable. And here's the
thing, I can prove to us all
mathematically that 99% of our children
are not in the top 1%. America loved the
unremarkable when I was a kid. It know
it's fallen out of love with the
unremarkable. Is America about
identifying a superclass to become
billionaires? Or is about planting as
many seeds as possible? Because no one
can be the arbiter of greatness at 18.
No one was going to see me at 18 and go
someday you might have an impact and
you'll be wealthy. No one would have
known that. And we've decided no, we're
about the children of rich people and
we're about the freakishly remarkable.
on everybody else in my opinion.
Hopefully hopefully gets to the middle
class. But if you don't, there's big
tech waiting there to addict you.
There's a tax policy that might
impoverish you. I think that young
people people say about young people
they're entitled. I think they're
entitled to be enraged. I can't imagine
the rage they must feel right now that
that they look up they look sideways and
they see all this prosperity and they
look at my generation and see the
benefits we've accured and we want to
spend $2 billion $2 trillion a year on
their credit card. We spend $7 trillion
a year. We take in 5 trillion and that
two trillion is all going that
incremental two trillion is all going to
seniors. I'm in the club doing rails of
ketamine and champagne and the closest a
young person gets is they get to throw
their credit card in and I'll keep
swiping it. I mean it is literally
morally corrupt what we are doing in
terms of deficit spending and how we are
prioritizing our budget. our budget
reflects our values and our values are
all [ __ ] up and have said let's party
right the baby boomers let's party like
there's no tomorrow and the and the
young people well they're going to have
to clean up the house and the garage is
on fire and the dogs are going to be
pregnant but that's their problem
because I'll be dead by then this
generation my generation for some reason
does not feel the same obligation to pay
it forward or back and create
infrastructure and investments for young
people and it's it to me it feels fairly
obvious
And the solutions are fairly common
sense, but we'll have thoughtful
conversations and social security will
be a third rail. And we'll have
thoughtful reasons for why when I sell
my business, the first 10 million should
be taxree. The last business I sold,
first 10 million bucks is taxree. What
the actual [ __ ] They say, "Well, Scott,
entrepreneurs are more productive. We we
we want to unleash our productivity, our
most product." I had no idea what tax
people don't start businesses because of
tax policy. Did you know what the t Did
you know about 1202?
>> If you sell this business, the first 10
million bucks is taxree if it's a it's a
core. That's not why people start
businesses. No. But every day there are
new tax policies that do one thing.
Transfer money from those dudes to us.
More me than you because you're 10 years
younger than me. It needs to stop.
There's basic tax policy. Basic health
and human services policy, right? Why on
earth? You're a doctor. For God's sakes,
we spend $13,000 per individual for more
obesity, more anxiety, more depression
than every other G6 nation. We should
absolutely have nationalized socialized
healthcare. The bottom 99% again are
just a [ __ ] body bag of nutrition for
the top 1%. Monetizing health care. I'll
put that to you. I absolutely think we
need singlepayer socialized medicine
right now. I think it is indefensible to
healthcare in this country. 40% for I
apologize, I'm going off script here.
30% of households medical or dental
debt. You don't have kids. Do you
realize how what kind of shame you would
feel as a father if your 16-year-old
girl gets a screaming toothache and you
have to go into debt to get her a root
canal and that hangs over you for the
next two or three years?
>> I'm all for robbing it from social
security because I like that idea. The
moment you say, you know, nationalized
healthcare, I think, oh boy, here we go
again. But I like the idea of of robbing
it from social security. I'm I'm not
talking about taking old people and
turning them out to pastor and letting
them wander the streets, you know,
mumbling to themselves. I do think that
taking care of the older generation is
important, but I do think we are a very
topheavy culture. And maybe because I
want to I consider you Gen X as opposed
to boomer.
>> I appreciate that.
>> I really do. And actually, it raised a
question for me. Feel free to um say
pass. You don't want to answer, but
earlier you said you you're somewhat um
I don't know, bashful or or you have
this issue around your age. Like I my
friend Kelly Starret who's a you know
PhD in physiology amazing trainer and
stuff. He said the best thing about
turning 50 when I was turning 50 he's
like you're going to be among the best
in shape for your decade. And I think I
mean look you you look great for a
40-year-old like you're you're killing
it. You know you're fit all this stuff.
So but I wonder is this kind of shame
around it because your peer group kind
of sucks in the way that you're
describing or is this actually about
age? Because to me, one of the mo one of
the best things is to feel like your
friends, your people, the people you
associate with are awesome. And your
generation, I loved I think Gen X is an
incredible generation. As this
conversation continues, I'm thinking
more and more about the responsibility
and both the failures and the
opportunities to to remedy things for
the next generation. That's how we
started this conversation. So, two
questions there. First of all, is that
what that's about? like your peers kind
of suck and you don't want to be a part
of it because I consider you Gen X and
I'm not just trying to what do the kids
say glaze you here you're winning on
every dimension and you got two health
what sounds like healthy productive boys
like like you got it all man like
>> I think a lot of it comes down to very
just base things and that is a fear of
death I mean I'm not af I'm a I'm I'm
afraid of getting old and being
unhealthy I don't mind the death part
also just a fear of just wanting to feel
young and vigorous and masculine and
feel like that's slipping away from me.
Biology is undefeated. So, I think I'm a
little bit youth obsessed and a little
bit aegist. So, I think I have just a
fear of aging. Um, but just just the
call out about paying it forward and the
call out to your to your I know a lot of
young men and a lot of successful men
listen to this podcast. Like, I think my
generation on a lot of levels, we're
talking about tax policy, but men aren't
stepping up with respect to young men.
If you look at the single point of
failure, if you were to reverse engineer
when a boy comes off the tracks, it's
when he loses a male role model through
either death, divorce, or abandonment.
When a boy loses a male role model, and
90% of the time, single parenthood is
headed by a woman, as mine was, at that
moment, he becomes more likely to be
incarcerated than graduate from college.
And men aren't stepping up. There are
three times as many women applying to be
big sisters in New York as are men
applying to be big brothers. And some of
it is a taboo that men are concerned or
self-conscious about expressing an
interest to get involved in a boy's life
because of sexual abuse from the
Catholic Church and Michael Jackson and
the rest. But there are a ton of men out
there in their 30s. I think you have a
bunch of Morgan with you that may or may
not have kids of their own. You don't
have to be Se Goldman Sachs. You don't
have to degree have a degree in
adolescent psychiatry. You just have to
be a good man trying to live a virtuous
life. And as someone who mentors young
men, I can tell you it is so easy to add
value. Just showing an interest,
answering basic questions.
This is a question I literally got now
six weeks ago from a young man I'm
mentoring. I'm on this new diet. I'm
just drinking it pineapple juice and
creatine. Okay.
I don't have a medical degree and I can
tell you that's wrong. Mhm.
>> Another question I got eight weeks ago.
I saw this amazing thing. I'm moving to
Alaska, Scott. What do you You're moving
to I saw this amazing thing on National
Grave. I've decided I want to move to
Alaska. You have a good job and your mom
is sick, right? Yeah. Why are you moving
to Alaska? You're going to quit your job
and move to If you just ask basic
questions, you add value to these young
men's lives.
>> Just real basic stuff. I'm feeling
depressed. Did you get outside? Are you
working out? There needs to be a
societal zeitgeist that a moment a young
man
doesn't have men in his life that the
the tribe moves in and injects young men
into their life. And I would the call
out to men is you know there's this
there's this great quote in one of the
Paul Wes Anderson movies Magnolia where
the guy says I have love to give. I just
don't know where to give it. I just
don't know where to put it. It's such a
wonderful statement. I think there's so
many men out there that have real uh
like I think some of the most rewarding
types of love is to give fraternal and
paternal love. My purpose, my thing in
life is to try and prepare my men for
others. Prepare my boys for others.
That's my job. It gives me purpose. I
think there's so many men out there that
could offer so much fraternal and
fraternal love to a young man or a boy
and they don't do it either because
they're too lazy or they're not stepping
up or they they're worried that people
will suspect them of something and
there's so much need and this is what
you do. You find a single mother in your
workplace and say going to a game, does
your son want to join me or join me and
my boys? Does your son want to hang out?
washing your car, going to a game,
whatever it is, that is the e, in my
opinion, that is the easiest solve that
doesn't involve the government right
now. But the bottom line is men of our
age aren't stepping up. And I couch it
in masculinity. You take care of
yourself. That's the first circle. You
fix your own oxygen mask. You can't get
can't take care of other people unless
you're economically and emotionally
somewhat viable. You take care of your
family. Take care extended family. Take
care of your community. But the ultimate
expression of masculinity is to get
involved in the life of a child that
isn't yours. And not enough men are
doing it. Even really successful men.
They're not stepping up. They're not
helping young men. And the easiest thing
to do, the most and it's so rewarding. I
can't tell you. It makes me feel, and I
don't do enough of it, but I do mentor
young men. It's just so easy to add
value. They make such stupid [ __ ]
decisions. My job with my sons is to be
their prefrontal cortex. No, you have to
wear shoes to school. I I I know this is
right. Wear shoes to school. So anyways,
the call out. If we want better men, we
have to be better men. I don't think you
can really hit the pinnacle of what it
means to be successful in masculinity
unless you're involved in the life of a
child that isn't yours. We have the most
single parent homes of any nation in the
world. We used to be number two to
Sweden. We'd pass them two years ago.
But that's what I would call I
constantly talk about government fixes
because I'm a lefty. there. The easiest
societal fix is quite frankly is just
male mentorship.
>> Yes. Yes. And yes, totally agree. I I
was very proactive in going out and
seeking them. One feature of that that I
just wonder if we can kind of um
superimpose
or you know uh or superimpose some
solutions on top of would be a better
way to put it is for instance the I had
no interest in playing football but kept
getting hurt skateboarding. So I learned
how to weightlift and make my body
stronger from the football coach who was
this amazing guy who wrote the original
script for Mr. Mom that that he wrote a
play Wait Till Your Mother Gets Home
that became Mr. Mom. He's like big buff
guy. His wife Michael Kear.
>> That's right. But so people were say he
didn't write that but
>> this guy Bob Peters was like a physical
specimen. He also played the piano and
he raised these kids and his wife dared
him. She said in the se early 70s she
said you couldn't do what I do. And so
that was how the whole thing came to he
realized you're right it's really really
tough. So um I went to him for for
working out advice but not for other
sources of advice. I went to uh
different men for different sources of
mentorship. It'll become clear what I'm
saying here in a moment. My academic
adviser, my PhD adviser was an
incredible woman. So I was mentored by
women too. But that's characteristic of
academ.
>> Was your father very involved in your
life?
>> He he was. is I mean we had my parents
split up at a at a you know at at in
adolescence and so we had our you know
our challenges over the years over time
you know my dad been a scientist first
generation immigrant he
>> How old were you when your parents split
up?
>> 14.
>> And did other men kind of move in or was
your father still very involved?
>> I sought out other mentors at that
point. I resented science. I resented
what he was a part of. We eventually
made amends. He's actually been a guest
on the podcast. He's a he's a physicist.
really helped me understand his
trajectory and you know and we've worked
out our our stuff but at that time it
was you know it was skateboarding it was
lifting weights it was I want to become
a firefighter actually took fire science
courses and and did that and then
eventually tripped and fell into science
and mentored uh menteed myself to a
wonderful professor at Santa Barbara and
and then the story unfolds
>> yeah and you're gonna you're going to
gag on this but you're exceptional most
14-year-olds aren't exceptional and go
out and find mentors mentors have to
find them cuz they don't even know most
14-year-olds don't even know they need
mentors. They don't even know the
concept. And my mom was smart enough to
get men involved in my life really
quickly. And it was hu it was everything
for me. Everything. I got a my mom's
boyfriend gave me 200 bucks and said I
started asking about stocks and he said
if you haven't spent this or bought
stocks by the time I'm here next
weekend, I'm um taking it back. So I
went to Westwood and Wilshire Boulevard
and walked into Dean Witter and this guy
with a big jurow came walking out Syro
and said, "Hi, I'm I'm Sai Sero." And
every day I would call I didn't have a
lot of friends at 13 him from the
Emerson junior high pay phone 20 cents
and he'd give me a lessons on the
market. I bought 12 shares of Columbia
Pictures and be like Close Encounters
the third kind is a hit. That's why the
saga's up. Casey's shadow is a bomb.
When there's more buyers for the stock
and fewer sellers, the stock goes up.
And he taught me about markets. I've
been investing in stocks since I was 13.
I've made a lot of money selling my
companies. I've made a [ __ ] ton of money
investing in stocks. And just this guy,
and by the way, he came to one of my
live podcasts about two years ago. He's
now 82. Just this guy's interest in me
like just meant the world. And also, and
this is a weird story, but he recently
just passed away. You know how in media
there's that second family people talk
about? The dude who has a family and you
find out he has a second family. My mom
and I were the second family. My mom's
boyfriend and my kind of male role model
had a family
>> unbeknownst to her.
>> No, to her,
>> but we didn't have any money. And I'm
not going to judge my mom, but and I'm
not going to judge him. And he was
actually a really good man to me. He was
really a good mentor, but he was only
around every other weekend. But I had
some great my athletic coaches took a
really nice active role in my life.
>> And when I think about what it would
have been like because the reality is
you have this healthy instinct as a boy
to start rejecting your parents at a
certain age. And not only that, I see it
with my boys. Their mom's voice
literally becomes white noise to them.
They like stop hearing it and they they
take her seriously or literally but not
seriously. And and but even even just
saying that boys needed men 5 years ago,
this dialogue has come so far was
triggering to some people. What women
can't raise good men? No. My mom raised
me, light of my life. But if I had not
had a bunch of men who just naturally
stepped in, there was a guy across the
hall who noticed that it was just me and
my mom. He would come over with his
girlfriend to me every other week and
say, "Do you want to come horseback
riding with us?" Right? Because he knew
I was being raised by my mom. It was a
natural instinct for him to come over
and take me out. And I worry that we've
lost that that we don't have enough male
mentors.
>> Wow. We're going to have to do 10
podcasts. You know, I've got so many
more questions. I didn't get to a lot of
things that Scott, I I have to say it's
been amazing to get to just sit with you
and and learn from you. I'm delighted
that we had this conversation. I hope
the fact that we had it um I don't know
how polarized people people view us as,
but uh but that alone was important to
me. But I'm going to think a lot about
many of the things you said. You've
talked about having a code, this, you
know, this notion of of really being a
provider and a protector, having
building a financial, you know,
foundation for oneself. Uh, you know,
putting service over uh attention to
self and and just so many things of
value. This is one that, um, I know many
people are going to come back to over
and over again. And I'm just grateful
for you doing what you do. you defy all
the stereotypes of the of the groups
that people assign you to, which those
are my favorite kind of people. So, and
again, you're you're killing it on the
health front. Whatever you're doing,
man, it's probably your boys. They're
probably like, "This is what it's like
to have vigor and you like to
>> Well, tonight I'll go through everything
what I do and I want you to edit it, but
uh just in the mutual fan club here, one
of the things I don't like about
podcasting is it's emblematic of
American politics and that is the more
outrageous you are,
>> the more ratings you get. So the
podcasting algorithms
encourage people to say outrageous
things and sometimes they're not very
informed. And I'm guilty of this
sometimes. I've fallen into this Dunning
Krueger where I think I know something
about something because I know a decent
amount about marketing or business. And
I think in our leaders, we need to make
intelligence
and honesty and science cool again. And
you're doing that. And I worry sometimes
a lot of our most senior- elected
officials on the health side are not
making intelligence or science cool
again.
>> I have friends there and I'll just tell
like they're not biologists. They need
to talk to
>> that's my point. You have real domain
expertise. I think you are making
science and intelligence cool again. And
I think the nation is in desperate need
of that. That certification domain
expertise being measured about your
comments citing data putting out
disclosures telling me no Scott you
don't understand DOPA. This is what
actually is going on. I think that's
important. And so I I think you're a
really positive influence for young
people who are getting seduced by the
algorithms. And there's got to be people
like you out there that young men aspire
to be more like that say no training
domain expertise being measured and
science matter like that. You're making
that cool again.
>> Well, thank you. Well, it's a labor of
love and a bit of a compulsion. So, I
plan to continue, but I'm excited for
whatever comes next and especially in
these very tense uh political years.
You're a brave one.
>> Go on. You got balls and brains, man.
That's That's how I'll wrap this one.
You got balls and brains. I've been the
whole time. Like, and um you're willing
to take risks and um and make mistakes
and clearly you're making more better
decisions than less good ones on average
compared to your peer group and then
some. So, come back again. Appreciate.
>> Thanks again, Andrew.
>> Thank you for joining me for today's
discussion with Scott Galloway. To find
links to his new book and to find links
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