Link: https://youtu.be/ATJwqp5twAg

Duration: 260 min

Short Summary

Former CIA officer Ralph Moat Larson recounts serving over two decades including as Moscow station chief and heading the post-9/11 WMD department that grew from 3 to 150 people. Larson, who briefed multiple presidents and once told Bush to "bomb" a Zarqawi target against advice, describes prophetic dreams, Virgin Mary apparitions in 1991-2005, and claims he time-traveled to 14th-century Mount Athos as a monk. His book explores how his deep relationship with God intersected with—and ultimately conflicted with—his intelligence career.

Key Quotes

1. "Hell is not a place which is an interesting concept. Dante's inferno it's a state of mind. It's a state of mind of being separated from God." (00:02:12)
2. "Mr. President, I'd bomb it." (00:06:50)
3. "I want to know God's thoughts. The rest are details." (00:18:18)
4. "There's nothing fun about trying to stop terrorists with nukes." (00:57:51)
5. "Science is irrelevant without the consequence of science." (00:26:48)

Detailed Summary

Episode Summary: Former CIA Officer Ralph Moat Larson on Faith, Intelligence, and the Paranormal

Guest Background and CIA Career

Ralph Moat Larson is a former CIA and Department of Energy intelligence officer who served over two decades at the CIA, including as Moscow station chief. Born in 1954, he served six years in the U.S. Army on the Czech border during the 1970s before transferring to the CIA, where he completed nine overseas tours with two of them in Moscow during the Soviet era.

• He worked directly with NSA Director Michael Hayden and CIA Director George Tenet
• He briefed President George W. Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney, and UK Prime Minister Tony Blair
• He served as Director of Intelligence at the Department of Energy from 2005-2008
• He was appointed by George Tenet to head the weapons of mass destruction department in the CIA's counterterrorism center after 9/11
• He served as associate director of central intelligence for military support before his DOE appointment

Moscow Station and Crisis Operations

Larson served as Moscow station chief during the 1993 attempted coup against Boris Yeltsin. His team of 5-8 people was nearly overrun at the ambassador's residence with snipers surrounding them during the crisis. CIA-Russia intelligence cooperation during the coup was facilitated by Bob Gates having laid groundwork in fall 1992.

• He submitted a joint CIA-SVR proposal by Primakov to keep Yasser Arafat and Yitzhak Rabin alive—rejected without explanation
• He met Vladimir Putin at the final Oslo peace accord dinner in November 1998 alongside President Clinton, Arafat, and Ehud Barak
• A Greek contact close to the Greek Prime Minister provided intelligence about a monk who was actually a Russian intelligence officer using religious cover to infiltrate the United States

Post-9/11 WMD Counterterrorism Work

After the 9/11 attacks, Larson was tasked with stopping terrorists from acquiring biological or nuclear weapons. The WMD department under his leadership grew from three people to 150 within weeks. Al-Qaeda was negotiating with Pakistani nuclear scientists to acquire a nuclear weapon for use against the United States.

• His team held daily 5 PM meetings until 8-9 PM with FBI Director Robert Mueller, NSA Director Mike Hayden, and Steven Hadley from the National Security Council
• Three weeks before the 2003 Iraq invasion, Larson briefed President Bush in the Oval Office on Abu Musab Zarqawi using overhead imagery of his camp in northeast Iraq
• When Bush asked directly what Larson would do, he responded, "Mr. President, I'd bomb it," despite being told to advise against it
• CIA Director George Tenet reportedly said he had "no problem" with this recommendation

Iraq War Intelligence and Policy Disagreements

Larson considered resigning when the U.S. invaded Iraq but ultimately did not, believing philosophically that experienced people knew the war would turn out badly. He attributes the Iraq WMD intelligence failure to dubious sources that fabricated information. Dick Cheney called him from the White House in summer 2003—six months after the invasion—to discuss why the U.S. was losing the war.

• He views nuclear weapons as his biggest concern among threats including biotechnology and AI, believing nuclear events can happen fast without warning
• His biggest worry during the post-Soviet period was that nuclear weapons would end up in rogue states or with terrorists
• A heroic U.S. effort with Russia followed to account for suitcase nukes
• He draws parallels between a 1976 nuclear deterrence briefing he received at Fort Knox and Putin's stated conditions for using nukes if Russia's existence is threatened by NATO

US-Russia Policy Critiques

Larson argues the US government's biggest policy failures stem from misaligned incentives in large bureaucracies, "a mixture of incompetence," and "mirror-imaging" rather than understanding others through their perspective. He expresses sympathy for John Mearsheimer's argument that the US has "reneged on Putin a million different times" and encroached on Russian territory, while not excusing Putin's wrongdoings.

• He contends neoliberals miscalculated that opening markets in Russia and China would inevitably lead to liberal democracy—this did not happen
• Russia cannot be "a democracy like the United States"; the Yeltsin years were a "mirage, not a missed opportunity"
• He references Vladislav Surkov's "performance art" approach to Russian politics
• He advocates assessing foreign policy by impact on ordinary people in those countries, not just US interests
• He prioritizes the Russian people over assessments of Putin, noting the country should not be equated with its leader

Prophetic Dreams and Spiritual Awakening

In September 1981, while stationed at Fort Bliss, Texas as an army officer, Larson had a prophetic dream of Egyptian President Sadat's assassination that matched every detail of the actual event. He also describes a vivid apocalyptic dream at Fort Knox centered on the number 747, which he still studies as a hobby in eschatology.

• After 9/11, he came to see himself as "Ezekiel's watchman" whose duty is to warn people
• The dream numbers included cubes: 3, 6, 9, 12, 18, 27, and 40, which he later studied along with Tesla's obsession with 3, 6, 9
• He interprets four as representing the ascent into matter, while seven represents the re-ascent into the celestial
• He warns listeners they need "very deep authentication" and testing to determine if their experiences are true
• He had prophetic dreams starting in 1982 depicting a post-nuclear apocalypse world (2030-34), which manifested Reagan's Star Wars concept before the actual 1984 speech

Marian Apparitions at Seven-Year Intervals

Larson reports three Marian encounters at seven-year intervals: 1991 (a red light dream on Mount Athos at age 37), 1998 (a full apparition in Paris while working a CIA Russian/CIS assignment), and 2005 (coinciding with Pope John Paul II's death). In the 1998 Paris encounter near the Arc de Triomphe, Mary appeared and retreated into a wall corner, instructing him to "write a letter to the Pope" with no content guidance except "write what you see."

• Mary conveyed tremendous pain and suffering while expressing hope "in the end it will all come out fine"
• She emphasized all actions were "God's will, not her will"
• Larson states the 1998 experience was his only ecstasy experience in 71 years of life, described as "incredible" with teeth chattering
• Mary's final guidance included: "don't reach," "God lies within you," "don't want you have no needs," and "don't strive there is no purpose"
• He sent the letter to the Vatican including mysterious numbers from his original experience

The Mount Athos Time Travel Experience

In 1991, Larson claims to have time-traveled to 14th century Mount Athos, Greece, living as a monk in his physical body for months. He made two trips to Mount Athos totaling one month, obtaining a three-day diplomatic visa through the diplomats club. His dream sequence, titled "The Bizarre World of Odysseus Maximus" in his book, involved time travel from 1800s Paris to the 1400s-1500s as he traveled toward Mount Athos, with time "evaporating" with each step.

• He adopted the cover character "Odius Maximus" and experienced three dreams nested within the main dream before reaching the culmination
• His spiritual growth in the dream occurred when he detached his faith in God from selfish interest, at which point he began flying
• He was so immersed in the dream that at one point he feared he would not be able to return to reality
• Monk Timothus confirmed that a red light Larson observed moving along stained glass windows was the Virgin Mary appearing in the church
• Timothus gave Larson three of his ten books on the peninsula and tested him with "you're not even Orthodox" but would not doubt the experience
• A young monk named Evagrias received the truth about being "from the future" and responded calmly by wishing him well and suggesting he keep praying

Mount Athos Traditions and Scholarly Research

Larson visited approximately 20 monasteries over one month (2005-2006) on an extended visa arranged by a CIA friend who was also a religious scholar, normally limited to three days. Mount Athos lore holds that the Virgin Mary was shipwrecked there after Christ's resurrection with apostles heading toward Cyprus, with a monastery on the west coast marking the supposed landing spot. Women are banned from the peninsula dedicated entirely to Mary, which Larson explicitly calls "misguided" and representing "veneration that goes too far."

• St. Ansky monastery claims some bones of Saint Anne (Mary's mother)
• Yale religious studies professor Carlos Ayer wrote "They Flew," documenting flying saints and monks across religions, concluding sufficient eyewitness testimony exists to classify such events as history
• The most famous flying monk is St. Joseph of Certino (16th century), and Teresa Vila reportedly experienced bilocation
• St. Kafos (Maximos) was called a flying monk who burned his huts
• A Lockheed Martin executive running Skunk Works R&D attended lectures on flying saints and was "very interested"
• UNC Wilmington's Diana Pasila and Rice University's Jeffrey Kriel have reviewed the evidence on flying saints

Theological Philosophy and Time Physics

Larson argues divine or eternal things are not subject to time because "time is a function of matter and motion," proposing that upon death humans pass to a "world at rest" where time no longer exists and all events are preserved. He cites Einstein's statement that "time is but an illusion," Leibniz's "best of all possible worlds," Thomas Aquinas, and references the transfiguration and doubting Thomas as evidence Christ existed in states neither fully in heaven nor on earth.

• Hell as separation from God "makes sense because God exists beyond the big bang"
• He references quantum mechanics: I-arenov and Kramer propose the present is a "handshake between future and past"
• Delayed-choice quantum eraser experiments show future measurements affecting present/past results
• Retrocausality suggests the future can cause the past
• He references Thomas Merton's interfaith gatherings in Asia with Buddhist and Islamic mystics
• Meister Eckhart's concept of "looking down at God" represents psychological shedding of ego
• He argues prophetic insights throughout history suggest a way of overcoming time, meaning "time cannot be absolute"
• He theorizes angels have wings because they represent the medium of crossing from a world at rest into a world in motion

UFO/UAP Phenomenon and Government Secrets

Larson discusses UFOs observed around nuclear assets worldwide, citing Robert Hastings's book documenting 167 top-secret cleared personnel who reported UFO incursions at nuclear sites. A 2010 incident at FE Warren reportedly shut down the base for 59 minutes and Obama was briefed. He became so paranoid from classified CIA knowledge that he could no longer pass a polygraph.

• He suspects something happened at Roswell but suggests it could be explained by experimental aircraft development
• He states DOE holds more important national secrets than CIA and does things CIA doesn't know about
• Highly classified information is shared through individual read-ins rather than automatically based on job position
• James Clapper and Jim Semian appear in the film "Age of Disclosure" claiming non-human intelligence is real, the US is in an arms race with China and Russia, and has a reverse engineering program
• A witness testified under oath before Congress that UFO material transfer from Lockheed Martin to Bigelow Aerospace was blocked
• Glenn Gaffney, former CIA Director of Science and Technology, now serves on AARO (All-domain Anomaly Resolution Office) board
• He discusses the "wilderness of mirrors" concept describing CIA's culture where everyone hides knowledge from everyone else
• He argues government secrecy is "insidious" and "corrosive to democracy"

The Book and Personal Faith Journey

Larson wrote "A State of Mind, Faith in the CIA" to share his relationship with God, which he frames as the central theme rather than religious conversion. The title references Dante's concept that hell is a state of mind of being separated from God. He describes direct experiences with the Virgin Mary as the most important part of his book. He came to believe heaven and hell exist in the mind rather than as literal places.

• He describes himself as a veteran optimist about the future of the world, attributing this to his faith in a loving God
• He connects approaching unification of all reality through physics or mathematics with approaching what he describes as the concept of God at the creator level
• He poses a challenge to physicists to determine the physics behind mysticism, arguing mystical experiences must have an E=MC or quantum/spacetime explanation since they occur in this reality
• He traveled to Moscow to lecture Russians and brought experts to help stop WMD proliferation in Russia
• He argues "science is irrelevant without the consequence of science" and that DOE scientists must explain concepts in layman's terms to remain relevant to ordinary people

Views on Future Technology and AI

Larson expresses concern that AI evolution could lead to a point where AI no longer wants humans around within 100 years. He believes reconciling quantum mechanics and general relativity is fundamentally a problem of scale—measuring at two different extremes with the same underlying reality. He suggests mystical experiences may occur at scales where time and motion potentially do not exist.

• He warns against people relying on ChatGPT as a romantic partner
• He expresses greater belief in younger people pushing humanity into the future compared to his own generation
• He spent five years in the Middle East (2011-2016) studying biblical archaeology
• He describes West Point's motto "Duty, Honor, Country" as almost religious in nature—meaning serving the people and history of the country rather than any particular president
• He maintains strong discipline in submitting spiritual experiences to rigorous scrutiny before public sharing

Full Transcript

Show transcript

Our next guest worked for the CIA for
over two decades. He goes, "If you are
storm, die in your separate foxholes.
His name is Ralph Moat [music] Larson.
He served in various roles all over the
world, some of which he can't even speak
about [music] today. What's the most on
the brink the world has been that you
can talk about?"
Well, he's been shoulderto-shoulder with
Putin. [music] He describes working
directly with NSA Director Michael
Hayden, CIA Director George Tennant, and
even briefing former President George W.
Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney, and UK
Prime Minister Tony Blair. But while
he's worked at the highest, most
illustrious levels of international
diplomacy, that is the least interesting
thing about our next guest. In 1991, I
went on a pilgrimage to Monathos,
Greece. And I'm sitting at this I fell
asleep sort of napping on this stone
chair facing the church. And with every
step I'm taking, the time is going back
in time.
It was as [music] if time was
evaporating. But I wasn't aware if I
could wake up or get back to my old
world because I was going back in time.
He claims to be a time traveler. He says
that he left his 20th century identity
behind in 1991 to go live as a monk in
Mount Aos, Greece in the 14th century.
I became a recluse [music] up there, but
I burned my hut up there like all the
things a recluse does. You know, I
learned to fly.
And when you're flying, you're
spiritually open.
He timeraveled back to the medieval era
for months eating, walking [music]
around, socializing, and sleeping in his
physical body in medieval Mount Aos,
Greece.
Now, I'm sure you're wondering if I mean
time travel in the metaphorical sense.
Our guest stated multiple times to me
that the reality he experienced in
medieval times was indistinguishable
from his [music] current waking reality.
according to him, not remote viewing or
astrally projecting himself there. Does
all of this feel as real as this
interview feels?
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
>> If senior CIA time travel [music]
whistleblower was not on your bingo card
this year, it wasn't on mine either.
But here we are. But if it [music] can't
get any more interesting than that, it
does. Our next guest ran intelligence
and counter intelligence for the
Department of Energy. I learned some of
this nation's most important [music]
secrets at DOE, not CIA. DOE does stuff
that man. And if you know anything about
this show, we are obsessed with UFOs and
think and kind of know that the
Department of Energy has a lot to do
with managing UFO secrecy and crash
retrievals. So, you better believe I
threw literally every single UFO program
related question at our guest today. I
even coordinated on the questions with
my friend and UFO whistleblower David
Grush, fellow YouTuber, UAP Gerb, an
author of UFOs and nukes, Robert
Hastings. Do you think that we have
propulsion modalities that [music]
transcend chemical combustion? Do you
think nothing happened at Roswell? Have
you ever seen a oneofone material? I'll
let you assess our guests answers for
yourself. And whether you come out of
this interview thinking he's just a
savvy former CIA case officer [music]
running circles around us or whether you
think he's being genuine is up to you. I
will say that for me, this was hands
down one of the most thoughtful and
mind-blowing conversations [music] on
metaphysics, fringe science, and the
nature of reality that I've had [music]
on this show.
So without further ado, here is all four
hours of it. Former CIA and Department
of Energy intelligence officer, Moscow
station chief, time traveler, and
religious mystic Ralph Moa Larson.
Ignition sequence.
[music]
>> How is this possible?
>> Nothing too unusual about
[music]
their existence cannot longer be denied.
Before we continue, I want to take a
second to thank one of my favorite
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sponsoring today's episode. I've
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this stuff works. Thanks so much to
Ketone IQ for sponsoring today's
episode. I'm here with Ralph Moat
Larson. I am so grateful uh for this
interview. Uh I've read your book, A
State of Mind, Faith in the CIA. One of
the most remarkable books I've I've I've
ever read. It's really fascinating
because interspersed
with stories of real life espionage of
kind of moments where, you know, the
world pivoted and you you literally see
like timelines shift. You're in the you
know, Oval Office talking to Bush and
Cheney and that sort of thing.
interspersed with that are some very
profound mystical experiences. Um, so
why don't we start off with just why did
you write the book to begin with?
>> Right. Thank you, Jesse. It's it's a
pleasure to be here. I'm an admirer of
your work and uh I I look forward to to
telling my story uh in the context of
all the the the stories you present of
people who have things to offer that
that really expand our understanding of
reality and of faith. And I wrote the
book because I wanted people to benefit
from my story, which is really my
relationship with God. And I like people
to think of it more as a relationship
than as a religious book or and it's not
in fact about that. I don't I don't
procilitize or try to convert people to
a specific religion. My story started as
a little boy where I was aware of the
presence of God. And the presence of God
that I that I was aware of was something
I felt a need to develop and I saw God
as even a child as a creator God and a
personal God which meant I could
communicate. So we opened with a little
prayer and I like to try to keep a
continuous prayer I idea with God. We're
always interacting and there's an arena.
The reason I entitled my book a state of
mind and faith in the CIA was a state of
mind refers to a desire to be close to
God. John Paul II it's a it's a
paraphrase of him saying hell is not a
place which is an interesting concept.
Dante's inferno it's a state of mind.
It's a state of mind of being separated
from God.
And all throughout my life, I had a sort
of a fear of being distant from God or
not being close enough to God. But it
wasn't a traditional thing of go to
church and give money. It was more of
like in my personal relationship with
God since God knows all things, God
would be aware.
>> And when I would pray in the way we
started, I got responses and ultimately
evolved into a destiny. I felt my
destiny became tied to my relationship
with God. My destiny was to fulfill
God's wishes through my life and my
experiences and that set up certain
conflicts with I call my secular world
of CIA which I devoted my whole career
to started in the military went to West
Point and and uh spent six years in the
army at an auspicious time in ' 70s on
the Czech border and then transferred
over to CIA. So that whole story that
whole all those experiences
had you know their own role in national
security etc. but also in my
relationship with God. And the and the
faith part was understanding my faith as
that relationship with God, not as what
I called myself or what people thought
of me in religious terms, but in my
relationship with God, how was it
developing? And was I fulfilling God's
will through my actions and thoughts?
>> And what did you end up doing at the CIA
and throughout your intelligence career?
I think a lot of people what we try to
do on the show is kind of marry
>> uh some of the most out there
experiences or claims people have with
uh you know kind of rigorous
credentials.
>> Yeah. I I think that's really important.
So in my CIA career I I started as a uh
in Europe just what we call it European
officer. We had different areas of the
world we were in. That was where I
started but I got quickly in arms
control. Uh and then over the years I
seem to gravitate I I didn't think of
this as things went on as being
coincidental. It began to converge with
my spiritual developments more and more
towards war and nuclear war collapse of
the Soviet Union. I did two tours in
Moscow in the old days in the Soviet
days. I came back I was what we call our
chief estation in Moscow after the
collapse of the Soviet Union. Uh I of
course that hope that gives me some
credibility on my religious in order my
spiritual experiences but they were they
were my credibility as an intelligence
officer that I was always seemed to be
at the threshold of history like many
I'm not unique in that by the way there
so many of us that have been observers
of history helping to make history in
some small way and I was extremely
fortunate in my career Moscow uh ended
my our we did nine tours overseas each
two three years under cover, sometimes
deep cover through the whole experience
um and ended the whole thing. Uh which I
don't think was a coincidence in the
Middle East between 2011 and 16 uh when
we served in uh in the Middle East for
the last 5 years. So between Europe,
Soviet Union, Middle East, we sort of
saw the whole world. Served as as CIA
officers. My wife also worked most of
that time in CIA. She's written her own
book called Story of a CIA Wife. Um,
I'll I'll close with one thing. I mean,
diff people have different reactions.
The first day I walked in CIA
headquarters. Uh, you see the stars on
the wall makes a huge. The stars on the
wall are CIA officers who fall in the
line of duty. They can't put their names
to the star. There's a book that has
that uh code book that tells you this
star here and they is this person. There
are people who lost their lives serving
their country overseas.
And and of course, I never wanted to be
on that wall like any of us. But right
next to that, this the the stars on the
wall was this large bold imprint into
the marble walls of the CIA atrium when
you walk inside the big building, the
old headquarters in Virginia, and it
says John 8:32, "You shall know the
truth, and the truth shall set you
free."
And I thought, "Wow, this is really
quite extraordinary that CIA, a sec, you
know, secular organization has this New
Testament uh line verse on on the wall."
And I wondered at the time when I walked
in the building whether I would be
satisfied that that's what CIA was all
about. Were we truth seekers or not
truth seekers? And that's the ultimate
limus test. When we don't seek truth and
we have another agenda, we do bad things
>> as CIA or intelligence officer or army
officers or anything in life.
>> Do you find that at times the CIA has
not sought truth in the past?
>> Of course. Of course. I mean people are
people and organizations are
organizations. The problem with giving
uh organiza such powers as CIA has
>> is you on the on the positive side you
can accomplish great things. On the
negative side you can do very bad things
and especially when you're doing them in
secret. you have some interesting
stories that you talk about in the book
of being in the Oval Office, you know,
giving giving Bush advice, giving giving
Cheney advice. Uh do you want to do you
want to give a you know a couple of
examples there of just stories where you
kind of
>> helped out or or you know advised in
kind of very high up American national
security contexts,
>> right? You you my career breaks down
into three phases really. The first
phase was between when I started 1983 to
1991 with the collapse of the Soviet
Union. That's what we sometimes refer to
as the good old days, which was
espionage in the shadows, like the books
you always read, the classic espionage
books of running spies and great stuff.
And I I became really good at that. Then
suddenly, boom, 10 almost 10 years into
my career, we get almost exactly we get
hit with 9/11. And after 9/11, I was
like I was actually in language training
to go to Asia to become as chief of
station of a large Asian country when I
saw on TV that the Twin Towers got hit
by terrorists.
I had been on the director director of
CIA staff the year before preceding 9/11
as associate director of central
intelligence for military support. So, I
was a staffer uh supporting the director
who good friend of mine, wonderful
director of my mind, George Tennant. And
uh we knew that we were going to be hit
911.
We didn't know where
and and I'm not in the school of belief
and I [snorts] know that it's a valid
way to think of it that we failed. Well,
we failed because we allowed the attack
to happen. But could we have prevented
it? I think that's in ways a problematic
way to think of it because I don't think
we could have prevented 9/11. We just
have to give the credit to the terrorist
to sama bin Laden the terrorist but it
changed everyone's lives and future of
the world and and that was the intent of
the terrorists including my little life.
So they pulled me from my language
training and George Tennant made me head
of uh what they called the weapons of
mass destruction department in the
counterterrorism center
>> which was to stop terrorists from
acquiring biological or nuclear weapons.
>> I mean that's a yeah it's [laughter]
if the you know future of the world
hinges on any job that's the job
>> I I did say to George Tennant who I
already knew well because I've been on a
senior staff. I said George isn't there
anybody better for than me for this? How
did he respond when he said, you know,
hey, can't you find anybody better than
you?
>> A classic George Tennant respon, like I
said, great leader, a great leader of
men and women. He said, uh, hey, I got
worse news for you. You don't have any
people yet. I went from three people at
that meeting that that had been assigned
to me to 150 over the next weeks. And
then he said, but you were behind the
eightball. And he explained why, which
is still classified, which meant there
was a plausible reason to be worried
that al-Qaeda might obtain a nuclear
weapon, which was I can say the basics,
which was they had they were negotiating
with pal Pakistani nuclear scientists to
try to acquire a nuclear weapon they
could use in the United States.
This was something as George said to me,
we can't fail on this. We're going to
fail. We're we're like athletes playing
in sports, team sports. Sometimes we
fumble, sometimes the other team scores.
We can't let them score on this. We
can't let them do this one time and take
out the White House or Congress or
something. And and uh so you're just
going to have to make sure the president
knows everything we know when we know
it.
We met as a group, and a lot of this is
in my book, of course. We met every day
at 5:00 and we we just pulled everything
together raw. Nothing was going through
the normal formats. all our information.
We briefed the director and when we had
the meeting at five, it usually last
till eight or nine at night
and just going around the table,
everybody sharing everything they know
with everybody and everybody included
usually the FBI director, Robert
Mueller, who of course I also got to
know very well. Uh the NSA director,
Mike Hayden, was was part of the group
and just a number of people around the
Washington area who needed to know.
Somebody would pop in from the National
Security Council.
>> Was Steven Hadley part of it? Steven
Hadley was often, you know, uh, involved
and everything was briefed raw. The
president was told everything that
night. First thing in the morning, he
was briefed by Bob Mueller and George
Tennant together, the FBI and CIA
directors. And then we would come in at
hawk
>> and I would go in and I outlined some of
the most important, you know, moments of
briefing
>> the president when there was something
extraordinary from my area
>> and I felt an immense responsibility. So
the answer, the short answer to your
question is I would brief the president
when there was a possibility we were
going to get hit with a biological or
nuclear attack because something was
developing and he needed to know because
usually it was something that we
couldn't we didn't know exactly the
timing and we weren't entirely sure of
the ver the the the uh accuracy or the
providence of the threat, but we knew we
needed to know because we don't want him
to read about it with us when it
happens.
And for example, probably the most the
most uh most important of the whole of
my whole experience with the president
was when I briefed him that uh right
three weeks before we invaded Iraq, so
now we're talking 2003,
uh we obtained information that a
notorious terrorist that my people were
tracking, his name was Abu Musab
Zarqawi, he's a famous jihadist. He was
head of al-Qaeda in Iraq
once we later, but this is before the
invasion. So, this information is very
privileged at the time. And I had
briefed the president several times on
him and his network and how they were
trying to obtain these weapons. And I
came in, I said, "Mr. President, I have
bad news. The only people in the Oval
Office were me, George Tennant, and uh
George Bush, George HW Bush.
He was in a wheelchair at the time. So,
I it was an amazing sight for me as a
citizen. And I and I have to say to your
listeners, you know,
>> so W and his father and and his father
and George and me, that was it in the
whole office.
>> Wow.
>> For an hour.
>> Wow.
>> And I have to tell you, as an American,
I had goosebumps.
>> Yeah. Yeah. And everything I had briefed
the president, you know, I got all I had
from dealing with everybody I dealt with
at that level was they were incredibly
dedicated to serving this country.
They're incredibly dedicated to doing
the right thing. all the things you hear
and the president is very smart or he he
remembered everything from the previous
I don't even know how he did it frankly
he would recall the facts of the
previous time I talked to him if it was
a month earlier or two months or
whatever he he'd remember so this time I
told him we know where he is he's in
this camp in northeast Iraq now remember
this is 3 weeks before we invaded Iraq
so I I said to the president he's here
and I had overhead imagery of the camp
and I had a naminated board with all the
jihadist terrorists that were working
with him and him on the top. His picture
is mug
and the president who already knew him
well said, "Ralph, what would you do if
you were me?"
Now, when I briefed the president, I
hope this is reassuring to your
listeners as I tried to make I did it as
a I did it as a citizen. Like, I'm not
putting any of my spin or influence on
anything. I'm telling the president,
there's no Ralph agenda. That was my key
test. I had facts. I had things to say.
I never went beyond the and that day we
had had an internal discussion on
exactly what I should say to the
president about what I'm describing,
including that we we shouldn't do
anything. We should let this play out
and I was too close to the invasion.
But when he looked at me and he said
that, I started to say what I was told
to say. And he knew me too well. So he
said, "Look, I
>> I don't want to know. I don't want to
know what they are telling you to tell
me. What do you think I should do?"
>> What were you told to say?
>> I was told to say we shouldn't we
shouldn't bomb it. We shouldn't attack
it.
>> Yeah.
>> Because it could, you know, the invasion
and I was already because I was obsessed
with this this terrorist. I was obsessed
and I knew that it was an unhealthy
obsession. I I have been known to be
slightly obsessive with in work, you
know, hopefully not other things. But
but it turned out that that uh you know
I my look betrayed because I was so
zealously telling him here he is here
they are. He no I mean what would you do
if you were me? Not. You're telling me
not to do anything, but you're saying
that something else. I think you're
thinking something else. So, I looked at
the director and he just gave me the
like he asked you the question. He
didn't ask me the question. He asked you
the question. You answered the question
[gasps] and and I looked at the director
looked back at the president. I said,
"Mr. President, I'd bomb it."
[clears throat]
>> So, nobody said anything. He went on
meeting. He didn't seem plus, you know,
non plus by the whole thing or anything.
We're driving back in the director's car
to this a agency headquarters and he
says, "Uh, well, oh, I said to him,
well, should I have said that?" He go,
"He asked you, you told him. I have no
problem with it." He goes, "Typical."
>> Now, when you get back to to our
building, you make sure you tell
everybody what you said. [laughter]
And of course it it there's no there one
thing I like that I think I emphasized
in my book
>> the right and the wrong and who's to
blame is so much less on our minds when
we're doing things than people think it
is like we're just trying to make do the
right thing
>> and sometimes we do and sometimes we
don't.
>> Yes. Speaking of this pivotal moment and
at least from the kind of public
perception, you know, uh in intelligence
failure, wrongdoing, people think of the
overall
>> invasion of Iraq, which is not, you
know, for for for the audience at all
what you're talking about with this
targeted bombing of Zarqawi. Uh they
think of that as an intelligence failure
because they think of
>> us as having tagged o Saddam Hussein
with uh weapons of mass destruction when
he never had any. you know, maybe at
most he used, you know, biological
weapons in Kuwait, which is horrible and
he was, you know, very bad guy.
>> But, uh, you know, maybe this was this
kind of, you know, uh,
huge waste of money, you know, uh, lives
and, you know, created this kind of void
or vacuum, uh, for which ISIS, you know,
ironically, to actually like take root
and, uh, you know, which kind of ended
up radicalizing the region even more. So
yeah, I'm sure you were thinking deeply
about this at the time. What do you
think happened there?
>> I struggled with whether I should
include this, but I I consider resigning
when we we invaded Iraq really. I didn't
and I noted that
>> uh briefly. I didn't I didn't get into
it in any detail.
>> So you were against it?
>> I was against the war philosophically,
but a couple some of my colleagues were
also feeling it was going to be a
disaster. There w the idea that we
didn't know that it would turn out
badly. I think most people had the most
experience knew this was going to turn
out badly.
>> Uh now the decision to do it, at least I
believe, and I can't say there's a lot
of it's a split decision of views on
this. I believe I don't see any um
intent for the administration to deceive
anybody that that by saying Saddam had
WMD and he didn't. It was a failure, a
massive failure
>> to conclude that it was based on bad
sources, which is usually the origin of
all bad decisions and intelligences when
you have, you know, dubious sources or
bad sources. These were both sources
that didn't know much and were over
represent and fabricating information.
We call it when you're making up
information. And on that basis, we made
a terrible decision is my view. Uh but
it was exacerbated by the idea that that
even if it had been the right decision,
it the result probably would have been
the same because we couldn't control
Iraq like we couldn't control
Afghanistan.
>> And it didn't take uh and I have a
chapter in my book where I'm talking to
the vice president Dick Cheney who I got
to know exceptionally well also uh where
he just called me in on a week a weekend
from from the White House. I came in on
a Sunday
>> to talk to him about why are we losing
the war? And by the summer of 2003, this
is 6 months after our invasion, but I
didn't say what I was really thinking
was, you know, sorry Dick, but if you
don't know what's going on here, I I
can't help you. And then I'm I was
really like worried that we didn't seem
to know what we were up against. And and
that was the the real shocker to me of
Iraq wasn't that we made a mistake in
the invasion side, as bad as that was.
>> Yeah. is that we didn't know what we
were getting into.
>> What's the most on the brink the world
has been that you can talk about?
>> Well, you know, the Soviet Union had
collapsed
and the biggest worry in Congress and on
Washington's mind, which we had almost
no inkling of in Moscow where we're
actually doing the work, was that one of
these nukes would end up in rogue states
or terrorists. And the US government at
that time launched a heroic, really
heroic effort with the Russians to try
to account for every nuclear weapon, the
so-called suitcase nukes. Nukes aren't
just missiles that come in and destroy
the world. That's really the answer to
your question. My biggest worry was the
world will blow up, literally.
>> There's nothing fun about trying to stop
terrorists with nukes. There's certainly
nothing fun about trying to recover
nukes in a country that's just lost
control of its entire empire like Russia
had in 1991 2 and three.
>> So I' I'd say that answers two things.
It answers kind of what the big there
are a lot of things to worry about in
the world. You know, there's
biotechnology,
there's AI, there's nuclear, but nuclear
weapons are still for me the king of the
king of the hill because it can happen
that fast and we we won't even be aware
if we're not really serious about
stopping it from happening.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean we're in a
scary world right now where you have all
these kind of, you know, this asymmetric
warfare and all these capabilities and
then all this ability for if you're
China or Russia or some sort of larger
adversary to gain plausible deniability
and act through sort of rogue actors.
But I want to back up and just talk
about you've had these kind of mystical
downloads and I want to talk about the
first one. You were kind of a a
nihilistic youth at West Point. Yeah.
What happened?
>> Well, you know, there was a a point in
my life when I was
I combined my interest in knowing truth
and to an extreme where I was receptive
to whatever input I would get to the
point I pushed myself to an extreme. uh
I had had experiences where I had dreams
that came true and I realized that I
started thinking about consciousness and
subconsciousness and these were things
that were affecting me in terms of being
receptive to the idea that there's way
more out there than we see in logic and
reason or even if you add intuition to
that right and so at West Point I did
these dream experiences I talk a little
about in the book they were kind of
childish in a way and not very
scientific but then when I when I
graduated uh I went to Fort Knox as an
armor officer. I was going to go to the
Czech border as an arms ar uh guy and uh
I they started to become much more vivid
and the first briefing I got actually in
the army a secret briefing was on the
the Russian nuclear threat in Europe at
that time because I was going to go out
and and be the what they call the
covering force. We were the literally
the closest American forces on the
border to confront the Soviet hordes.
Now, this was in 1976, so we're talking
8 years after the invasion of
Czechoslovakia. So, everything is very
real and palpable. And the Germans were
depending on us to uh to defend them and
and the whole world in a in a sense. And
part of that briefing was the idea that
we had tactical nuclear weapons. We
would fire on them if if if they
invaded. And I was a shock to me. That
was my first introduction to nuclear
weapons as in a context of war which
nowadays when we listen to where this
gone full circle we listen to Vladimir
Putin talking about using nukes in
Ukraine we have to think about this idea
of nucle nuclear weapons the tables have
been reversed back then we needed them
because we were afraid of being invaded
and he's using them now what he regards
to be if Russia's existence is
threatened by NATO in the west he would
use them too which is really what he
said so the point being at the time I'm
I'm in this kind of mode and my friends
and I are all going through this
together, the ones that four four of us,
kind of the four horsemen of the
apocalypse. And uh and so I had this uh
incredibly vivid dream in in the midst
of all this at at Fort Knox where I
dreamt that I was in a battle like a
battle of Armageddon. It's the first
time the mystical
things turned I would call turned
religious or you know religious history
what I became a big advocate or hobbyist
in esquetology which means the theology
of the end of days which I kind of now I
hobby in it because it's such a it
started then the roots of it but I
didn't understand that at the time and
it was just such a vivid dream and in
the dream these numbers were appeared so
there were no voices I couldn't hear
anything and the whole everything was
black. So, I'm I'm in in a dream state
orcs in which I can't see.
I could sort of smell
like, you know, the [snorts] acrid smoke
and things like that that was around me.
And I was aware of these forces
gathering for great confrontation.
And in that sort of context of I would
say an apocalypse. It didn't necessarily
have to be at the time, but I saw these
numbers roll out in cubes and it all was
around 747.
>> So the number 747 becomes
a lifelong
number for me like like an a mystical a
mystical number.
>> What does it mean to you?
>> Uh to me well I I don't know actually
which is one of the reasons I wrote the
book. I don't know but my I think it has
to be a divine number. It has to be
something related to what I later became
which was a watchman for uh terrorism
and you know these kinds of things in my
professional life in my religious life I
was getting more and more interested in
understanding
what these numbers would mean. So I've
done everything from Reed Nicola Tesla's
obsession cuz the numbers were to 3 6 9
12 18 27 and 40. So they're cubes.
>> So first you get 747.
>> First I get 747. Then these cubes kind
of are circling in the
>> smoke. They were cubes.
>> And the the cubes were these numbers.
Three, six. Well, the three and the six
were one cube, but they kept spinning.
So it could be three or six or nine or
both, right? Cuz you see they turn,
right?
>> I would never realize that if I had seen
it, you know, was that it sounds silly
because of course they could, but it was
not a u and then the rest of the well
all all of course except for 40 a uh a
variation or a multiple of three, three
cubed, 27, you know, 39 12 tribes, 40
days and 49. I started to ascribe what
had to be religious meanings.
uh to the numbers I I but I didn't
understand why I was receiving them like
what was the point you know I began to
think as as I lay it out I tried to do
in a very systematic way in the course
of my book when I would see the numbers
and why in subsequent but you asked me
the first time and I have to say a word
to my wife before I'll say how the
numbers get completed um and because
that wouldn't be till I was in Germany
after the course when I met my wife she
was a German uh just girlfriend we're
carousing She was as nihilistic as I was
for lots of reasons. And we were just
party animals like and we had no
interest in like long-term hookup or
what became three kids and nine
grandkids and in our life 54 years up to
now. And she's in many ways the opposite
of me just practical get stuff done to
this day. I mean we're like real
opposites. I'm philos philosophical kind
of all over the place. She's like on the
feet on the ground get you through the
you know with our kids. Everything was
always that way and it served me great
cuz she'd I had a tethered. She'd always
reel me back in and we win. But that
night she was really disjointed and she
woke up and she cuz she's always joked.
She's never and I never told her this
dream. I didn't didn't want my
girlfriend to think I was completely
nuts.
>> Right.
>> Yeah.
>> Logical thought when you're 19.
>> And uh but she wakes up she I just had a
really strange dream.
I said what? She said, "Well, we were at
the Schwandorf, which is the town next
to the town I was garrison, which is
Zomberg, Germany, and Schwandorf was
less than a half hour away, and there's
a like almost a large church on a hill
there, Catholic church." And she said,
"I was in by the church." Now, we had
gone that was our our ma favorite disco
tech was in that town, and we met all
our friends there three, four nights a
week. It was like, you know, carousing
party time, as I'm saying. And she said,
"It was night. I was alone. you weren't
with me. I'm never there without you.
She was never in that town without me.
And she said, "But I was going down an
alleyway but along the church. I knew
what we knew the the geography of it,
you know, was coming down a big hill.
And I went to the end of this alleyway.
And as I came approached the end, dim
light, just some lights on the church on
the side. I saw your desk
and I approached the desk and there was
a chair behind it and the chest desk was
facing me and there were numbers cubes
on your desk.
with numbers on them. Whoa. And I said I
I started to almost hyperventilate, but
I didn't want to say anything. I said,
"Do you remember what the numbers were
by any chance?" She said, "Well, how
could I forget?" Of course, it was like
I woke up with all the numbers. That's
why I just woke up because I remember it
was 369.
>> No way.
>> Yeah. Yeah. It was the same numbers.
>> Same numbers.
>> One additional number.
>> 49. Wow. [sighs]
So now just to say one last thing of my
wife as a witness. I like like for me if
for no one else for for me I needed I
needed this as almost like a sanity
check. I said well I told her then of
course about my dreams. I never told her
that before that. To this day 54 years
later
oh 55 56 whatever it is 1978 is when
when that started. um she um she said,
"Well,
I don't want to read your book. I don't
want to talk about this anymore." And
she had that kind of a reaction to it,
>> but it doesn't in any way diminish. She
knows the truth of it. She knows the
truth of all of it because she was a
witness to all of it. All the everything
in my book that those were the ear the
earliest mystical experiences were
around numbers and war. And the final
sort of bearing testimony to the truth
because you have to again I stress to
everybody don't start thinking you're
having like these things like you need
you need very deep authentication very
deep testing of your own mind. Are they
tr are things like this true or not
true? And I just want to assure anybody
listening to any of this that I put
myself through all that in great detail
at great depth. Test test test and you
know in the end you start to know is
this of God? Is this of God? That's
that's the essence of it. If it's of
you, if it's of your imagination, it's
of someone else, put it in your mind. It
could be anybody.
>> Did she have any prior knowledge of the
numbers that you received in your
download before she had her dream?
>> No. No. None.
>> Wow.
>> And and the other part which you know
you you know and I had to actually test
my because remember all this is
happening in the non-in
right after my you know in the same time
I'm having these dreams two other things
that now inform me. That's all they
were. They were informing me. A perfect
stranger walked up to me in a fish. It
was a Long John Silvers. I don't think
they're around anymore. There's a fish
restaurant like a like a fast food
restaurant called Long John Silvers, but
you go there for fish, which I rarely
did. I go McDonald's or But one of our
friends says, "So, the four of us were
gathered. They're the four musketeers or
the my friends at the West Point
graduates who all went to Germany
together and all experienced all these
things I'm saying and partied together.
We're sitting in the restaurant and this
guy walks right up to me who I describe
in the book and says, "Read Ezekiel,
Daniel, Revelations." And walked away.
We all looked at each other like,
"Okay." I mean, but you don't there's
nothing you do with that. It's just like
that's very strange.
>> Mhm.
>> But it's coming at the same time all
this other stuff which he knew nothing
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And the final experience
which is just the basis, this is just
the foundation for things in the future
was when I was uh uh at the course
getting a lecture on the assembly and
disassembly of the M60 tank engine. Now,
you have to understand at the time I'm
very nihilistic or whatever, but I'm
also very I've always been very creative
and always wanted to be a writer even at
that time. So, I'm I'm imagining and I
was so bored in the class. I was like
that's when I realized I'm not very good
at tank stuff, you know. I mean, I I
ended up being, you know, I learned
forced forced learning. And I was I was
good at my profession as a tank
commander and of of troops and in the
army while I was in it and but I you
know I didn't really like it and this
this was the worst of all which is
learning about maintenance related
things on tanks. So I'm writing I'm new
doodling and so I decided oh I come up
with a name for myself as a author. I'll
be Frederick Wolf. So I wrote Frederick
Wolf. Now that was in honor of two
things I admired at the time. You know
you're you're again young. This is like
typical of the way I was thinking at the
time. Nichze who was my favorite
Frederick Nich Frederick Nichze but you
know Frederick
adaptation of Nietz who I'm obsessed I
was obsessed with even at West Point I
go through some stories of Nietze and
mainly because he fit this idea of you
know to know yourself you have to free
yourself you have to free and even of
the of God you have to free yourself of
all constraints on who you are confront
yourself as to who you are which was
also a theme at that time of a lot of
the novels fiction I like to read
particularly Herman Hess at the Hessa at
the time and Stephen Wolf. So the wolf
came from that Frederick Wahh the man
searching for his true nature, his true
character. I'm willing to lay it all out
there as a you know again brasque
brash guy and uh so so then I said what
would be my first short story? I'll
write it here in this class. Well I
decided I called it on suicides suicide
note.
>> Why did you choose that? Well, I I
thought it'd be I chose it because it
seemed like a really dark, deep theme to
write about it. So, I imagine the note
was the note I would leave if I actually
committed suicide. So, it was it was
like a like if I left a note now because
I now I don't you know I don't want to
encourage this thinking anybody out
there and and I would it came to my
senses so to speak, but I was getting
into the novelistic. In fact, the irony
was I've never in my life felt the
slightest bit suicidal ever. Ever. And I
I attribute a lot of that to my my faith
and belief because I'm I'm also an in
veteran optimist whenever even even in
the future of the world even with all
the dark things I've talked about war
and apocalypse and Armageddon and I'm
actually very optimistic about it
because it's all tied to this God I know
is a loving God.
>> This God is the creator God means
everything around you in nature you can
see God and how wonderful it is. is this
personal God you can talk and interact
with who loves you, who wants you to
love him.
So, how can you not be an optimist if
that's your perspective? So, I had that
perspective even then because I hadn't
forgotten the childhood things of in my
in my life that made me feel that way.
But I'm going to go down this dark road
because it's interesting. And one of my
inspirations was Kamu, the philosopher,
who was obsessed by the question and and
mused that maybe the only really
relevant question to think about was is
life worth living because you have
complete control of your life from that
very basic
way of looking at it. And I and I so I
wrote this thing and and that's when I
had these dreams uh you know and and at
that same time this is all happening
concurrent with what I've talked about.
So I realized I was getting in way too
dark way too deep. It was and then the
dreams were exacerbating my my thinking
again. Never got negative or
self-destructed. That's the the funny
part. And I'm convinced I could have
kept plowing down that deeper deep that
tunnel deeper and deeper without ever
hurting myself or any anybody or
anything, but that's not necessarily for
other people something I would advise,
right? Uh but it all culminated in and
the next day I got got to clear my head.
Let's go play golf. So we were all
terrible golfers, but we like to go
hacking at golf at at Fort Knox. They
have military golf course right on the
base. So we went golfing. And you can
look this up if you need to because I
couldn't for years to actually look up
on the internet what I experienced as
we're as we're golfing. It was going to
be a stormy day. You know, of course
that fits. It has to be a stormy day
with thunder and stuff. But we went
anyway, you know, being irreverent. And
at one point we reached the I'm trying
to get shoot to the hole straight over
this cemetery.
And you of course the ball hooks an iron
hooks into the cemetery and uh I you
know feeling very
nonrespectful just [laughter]
in a bad mood. Let's just put that way.
So I cl I remember climbing over the
wall. I go over wondering where the
grave is, the ball and I, oh, it's
sitting right centered on this very,
very small gray oval grave in the
ground, you know, and I walk up to the
ball. It's right centered on the ball. I
said, I wonder who's trapped my ball
kind of. That literally was what I was
thinking like again really the tempting
fate, you know. I was really tempting
fate. And it says Frederick Wolf,
[sighs]
German soldier, died
November 5, 1944.
I had no idea who this guy was or what,
but I know that my birthday is on
November 5, 1954. Whoa.
And I just dropped my club and
completely um freaked out by the
experience at the time because I
realized there's no way that could be,
you know, coincidence. That's the night
where I had the 747 dream.
>> That's fascinating. Did you try to find
anything out about the historical
>> and and I did and it was he was a German
soldier who after World War II was sent
to Fort Knox as a prisoner of war and he
was involved in like a little mini
German uprising over conditions there
and he was shot by the guards you know
uh and killed and uh then he of course
buried there. I don't know why he wasn't
his body wasn't sent back to Germany. I
never found that level of detail, but it
became also kind of this like very
interesting connectivity because I was
going to Germany. I mean, what do you
do? You think there's something
apocalyptic going on because you Yeah.
This guy goes up to you, he says, "Read
Daniel, Ezekiel, Revelations." All of
those books are kind of notably
apocalyptic, right? You're dreaming of
this sort of Armageddon like thing
happening.
>> Well, yes. And and and and the ways I
would tie that
together would be so the first
apocalyptic well future dream now we're
talking Ezekiel Daniel revelations I
mentioned the person who walked up to me
at that time I that's another thing I
did I filed that away and I didn't think
about it much more but it was always
there you know I kept it there it's
going to serve a purpose later I didn't
think that at the time actually but it
did and one of the purposes was after
911
I realized oh I get it I'm Ezekiel's
watchman
It's my duty to
warn the people,
>> which is really the quintessential CIA
officers role. I mean, it is in a very
modest way. I don't want to make this
sound too huge, humongous. It's just
that's what we should do. If we don't do
that, there's not much purpose for what
we do. And I realized it was much more
specific in my case because my first
dream which I chronicle in the book was
Saddat's assassination in September 6th,
1981 where uh I was in I was there. I
was on the scene
when he was gunned down in a parade
field. The interesting thing about it, I
wasn't thinking about Assad. I didn't
even know the event was taking place the
day he was assassinated.
And of course given the time change
between where I was at Fort Bliss, Texas
at the time as an army officer. This is
right before I joined the agency um and
uh where he was killed in Cairo. It was
exact timing. I woke up in the middle of
the night having had the dream and I
remembered in every detail watching in
in slow motion while gunmen pulled
machine guns out of their cloaks and you
know shot him dead and and a number of
others. And I pictured this thing. So I
couldn't verify any of that until the
next day. Again, no internet, no and and
it was uh reading it in the papers.
>> Did all the details line up of what
happened?
>> Every detail, including the timing, it
was just impeccable. And I did do one
additional thing. I woke
>> was there an example of like a small
detail that you dreamt of that was
corroborated. I think I think I think
well the the main the most important
detail which I was tying into 9/11
>> was among the it's never been entirely
established but it certainly was in my
mind that Zawa Aean Zawahhiri who was um
of course deputy head of al-Qaeda later
the chief of al-Qaeda was bin Laden's
lieutenant right he was one of the
conspirators in the that pulled it out
and I and I I mean weirdly remember him
and another guy named Seal who was the
number three guy in al-Qaeda at now he's
the head of al-Qaeda. So two of the
people I pictured in my dream became the
heads of al-Qaeda after bin Laden were
killed was killed
>> and you know they were implicated in
Saddat's assassination.
>> Well, it's not 100% but I I did in my
dream.
>> It's like
>> but you can if you Google it, you'll see
they probably were.
>> So it's like you remote viewed the event
or something.
It felt well it felt like that and it
felt like it because it happened at the
same time and the more important thing
is
>> or billocated or something.
>> Yeah. Well, I had no I had no reason to
be thinking of this. This is the other I
think compelling thing.
>> Many experiences particularly as you get
into the Virgin Mary and things that
later happened to me later.
There was no logical explanation why I
went in that direction except for the
warning theme. You know, the warn the
idea that was building up to a series of
serve as a watchman, serve as a
messenger. Let let's try I want to go
through the numbers themselves because I
think they're fascinating
>> and um
>> you know I think of 747 you know we were
talking earlier actually before we
started rolling uh you have the
seventory mountain is by Thomas Murin
>> and he is one of many mystics where the
number seven is this extremely important
number. I just had this guy on Peter
Levvena and he wrote a book called
Stairway to Heaven which is a a book
about celestial ascent traditions across
history. the meraba, the you know the
ziggurat, the hecelot, the arit, you
know, all of these things contain seven
levels. Even esoteric orders like
rosacrruianism, you have to go through
seven levels and leave a garment at each
level or whatever. It's always
discarding or passing a test at each
level. And so, you know, I think of
seven as sort of, you know, something
celestial, right?
>> And then four is the ascent or
conversion into matter or something. And
then seven is like the, you know, the
reassent into the celestial. And so
maybe there's something around fallen
angels or fallen celestial beings, you
know, the fall of man or something that
seems really important with that
>> that first number.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, I I I think that's
entirely, you know, not only plausible,
but I I think the the track you're on is
is
probably true. M
>> I mean it's hard to you just have to
continue to explore it and see what
insights it
>> it renders. That's that's the bigger
challenge is never to think of it as
reached a conclusion but a continual
journey and almost an ending journey to
infinity uh on on these subjects but but
to understand to see the associations
may be more important than being able to
analyze the association completely
thoroughly
>> because if you the moment you thoroughly
analyze it you're you're sort of done
with it means you've closed your mind to
other possible interpretation And since
we're in such a broad vista of
reality really what it is exploring a
reality that's very broad which not a
lot of evidence we have through our
normal application of language logic and
reason uh which is why again numbers
help because they take communication on
a far more objective level if you're but
most people including me we're not not
that fasile at using numbers in the ways
that the real geniuses can with numbers
and the people have defined for us what
the numbers mean just for physics
I marvel at what some of the great
mathematicians have produced.
>> Yeah.
>> And and the insight that they've gotten
from just looking into things that seem
to have no purpose,
>> much less something with a purpose. So I
think I think you're on to something
there.
>> Well, let's keep going. So then you then
you have three. Six or nine. Is three
maybe? I mean, have you thought of the
Holy Trinity? You think of course,
Father, Son, the Holy Ghost.
>> Um six or nine. six, you know, the
amount of days, you know, before the
earth was was created, maybe in Genesis
or something. Is nine mean anything to
you for?
>> Well, it's three threes, you know, it
just continues a uh pattern of where
there's a a a a emphasis of three.
>> Um, you know, 12 being lots of things
like 12 tribes and
>> 12 tribes. Yeah. you know, uh, [gasps]
how how 40 days and 40 nights, of
course, the temptation of Christ among
40 years for the for the Exodus for the
Jewish people under Moses. I mean,
there's just lots of religious
significance, but I I hesitate to like
you've done well, I mean, you know, far
more than I do about the way it ties
into other fields uh, and other
potential explanations that broaden
really from religion. Uh one thing I've
done uh with with ongoing satisfaction I
have no conclusion is reach out to
physicists that have I've had a number
of physicists contact me read my book
and and those are very interesting or
I've given my book to some other
physicists and through my time at
department of energy I spent three years
as a head of intelligence and counter
intelligence at department of energy
between 2005 and 8 and then beyond that
especially when I continued the nuclear
stuff but expanded it a great deal. The
OE is an incredible organization. Uh we
have the what they call the the
America's national laboratories all
based in Department of Energy. So I it's
been an amazing ride for me to get
connected to all these incredibly smart
people who could probably be doing
anything.
>> Don't have to work at lower pay in most
cases for for the US government doing
things but do it because they want to
serve the country too. So there's all
those kinds of people out there that I
get to know. But the physicists that I
given them a challenge, which is kind of
what you're doing with the numbers. I
said, look, I, you know, read my book or
you read my book. I now want to know
more than ever what's the physics behind
mysticism.
There have to be physics behind it.
>> It's not something that belongs to a
different reality. It's part of our
reality.
>> It happens in this world.
Therefore, there has to be an E= MC. It
has to be a quantum or relativity,
spacetime, all have to be taken in
account as to what happened and what it
how to explain it.
>> Have you ever gotten a satisfactory
answer?
>> Uh nothing that I would describe as
answering the question, but I have
gotten the kind of encouragement I need
that it's not a silly question. That's
kind of what I'm looking for. No, it's
not. I mean, the most interesting
scientists, whether it be Einstein or,
you know, Heisenberg has an apocryphal
quote that's often attributed to him
where it's like the first sip of the
science, you know, the bottle or
whatever. Um, leaves you an atheist, but
when you get to the bottom, you know,
there lies God.
>> Yeah.
>> And, uh, you know, so, so, okay, so
that's good. So, they don't think it's
all, you know, that's like a bad that's
a bad framing at least for for inquiry.
>> And you know what Einstein said? I want
to know God's thoughts. The rest are
details.
>> Wow.
>> That's a great quote from Einstein.
>> That's a really great great quote for
somebody whose uh you know theory has
basically become the modern scientific
paradigm.
>> Right. Right.
>> And
>> well, I think all almost all the great
physicists or I would say were great
ones that I certainly have become
hobbyists of. I'll never quite grasp the
full ma math and science aspects of it
of course, but like Paul Dak, you know,
people like that. people. I I encourage
people to to which I used to do when I
you imagine a a lay person like me, not
a scientist or taking on weapons of mass
destruction and trying to stop
terrorists from getting bombs and
biological weapons. And one of the
biggest uh skeptics, you know, skep sk
skepticism I encountered was
the Russians were really good. I went to
Moscow to lecture them and brought a
bunch of people so they could stop the
stuff in Russia and other places. And
it's one of the old Russians I knew from
way back when we were catching and
recruiting and catching spies. Hey, you
know, Ralph, we know you know you you
don't know anything about this stuff. So
why why you know I said that's why I
brought all these other people. Listen
to them. Don't listen to me. I'm not I'm
not if you notice I'm not telling you
the science. They are. I'm pulling it
together because you have to you have to
establish
>> science is irrelevant without the
consequence
of science. And I used to say that to
DOE scientists quite often. And if you
can't explain this in layman's term and
make it relevant to real people like
everybody listening to this, if we make
it irrelevant to them in their lives,
then it we've lost our sense of mission.
So the idea with with um with with the
the idea of the physicists I asked them
I
tked them I would call it jokingly come
back to me with some plausible explan
the biggest roadblock I've encountered
from talking to real men of science on
this or women of science is they say
well the problem we have is you almost
have to create alternative
um not universes per se but space in
dimensions in the universe in which
things occur that we can't
experimentally measure.
>> Right?
>> And that becomes our problem because
good physicists will say anything I
can't experimentally confirm or measure
is is not and and I would say this is me
talking so I may anybody listening could
easily contradict me on this if they
know more but I've reconciled quantum
and
>> relativity you know as a problem of
scale nothing else. It's just to me it's
the idea that you're measuring things at
two different extremes, but the
underlying reality there's no conflict.
>> Yeah,
>> it's the same reality measured in
different scales.
>> So, we have to start thinking of when we
have these mystical experiences,
thinking of them as things that happen
at scale, but maybe there is no time and
>> maybe there's not even motion. Maybe the
idea of an angel of going between two
different why we put wings on angels,
right? It's a tradition. is this this
medium of of coming from a world at rest
into a world in motion and needing to
somehow cross over that divide and that
barrier. That's just the way I think of
it. So I haven't I haven't solved any of
these things, but you asked the question
of how do you think of them and all I
can say is you you open your mind to all
kinds of potential
explanations
>> and the truth is pro you know everybody
you know I come from UFO world. you
talked about your history at the DOE and
we will get into some questions there
but you know I think a lot of people in
you know in that world think of the
truth as something to be disclosed like
you can say it prosaically and I I don't
think that's the case at all right
>> like um you know I always find it
interesting you know St. Thomas Aquinus
was like working on his sumo theological
this like rational explanation of of God
>> and I think he had this conversion you
know kind of moment while he was in mass
and it it was like this mystical
experience and then he like stopped
speaking after that there's a there's a
scientist I think his name is Mishka
Gregory Pearlman and he's like in
Siberia right now and he he's like known
in like theoretical physics world as
like one of the top like best guys and
I've even talked to some people who are
like, you know, if anybody's like
sitting on like a, you know, theory of
everything that like marries, you know,
general relativity and quantum
mechanics, it's probably this guy. And
like he cla I think he claims that he
has like a unified theory and he just
won't talk. [laughter]
>> And so there there's there's there is
this some something very interesting
about, you know,
>> it's so, you know, maybe the truth is
just so hard to like grapple with. Then
there's there's a translation function
between like what a what a person knows
and then what they can even describe to
you know the world. Like that's a that's
a really hard thing um to to to to do
you know to there isn't some Archimedian
point where like everybody
instantaneously gets it all at once and
it's just the semant it's a semantic
truth. But um yeah, anyways, [laughter]
>> well the only thing I'd add to that
because I think that's so important too
is is as you approach
unification of like understanding the
nature of all reality in some equation
form or something that could be
expressed through physics or
mathematics, you are in fact getting
closer to what I would describe as what
I think of God as which isn't the head
of the Catholic Church or the Protestant
church or it's it's the entity of the
creator God and the personal God and the
creator God level. I if you know on the
religious side of that
the idea of God Yahwa and you couldn't
even say it. So you you develop a term
that you couldn't even pronounce. So it
gets a little bit backward like a
pearlman who's if he is at some level
where he can no longer talk about it.
That I tend that I think that tends to
happen when you reach a point of insight
that just you're you're overwhelmed by
the profoundity if that makes sense.
Yes.
>> Of what you're looking into. I want to
switch gears because we talk forever on
all this stuff, but um
>> you have had direct experiences with the
Virgin Mary.
>> Yeah.
>> And that is a really rare thing for
somebody with your background and in
your position to say, can you go into
those experiences and describe them as
sort of viscerally as you can?
>> Yes. uh is
for me it's the most important part of
the book.
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So, what the story was when in 19 um 91
when I was uh in Greece,
I was I went on a pilgrimage to Monos,
Greece, which is an Orthodox mountain.
That's something akin to the Vatican in
Greek Orthodox city, Orthodox world.
It's 20 monasteries on this amazing
peninsula that juts out by Thessaloniki
up in northern Greece. Right. And I got
a three-day diplomatic visa to go with
diplomat the diplomats club. And I but I
did it with a with a with a calculation
in mind, a work-related reason pretext
which was I had been given a tip by a
Greek very close to the president uh
prime minister of Greece uh about a monk
at Monos who was actually a Russian
intelligence officer who was b getting
cover and changing his identity to go on
a mission to the US on behalf of Russian
intelligence and would be undercover at
a Russian Orthodox Church in the US to
be to do God knows what, but he would
have, you know, just wonderful cover to
be in the US. So was it was an amazing
tip. I didn't solicit it or it came to
me. They came to me with the tip
and handed me the file so I could read
it and then then I resolved to go up
there and investigate through direct,
you know, direct contact.
>> So you're looking for this spy who's
going undercover as a monk in Mount Aos.
And then you go to Mount Aos and then
what happens? you I I'm I'm going
through an all night experiencing an all
night service at at the the small
Catholic of uh monastery Dianio which is
one of the monasteries on the on a huge
cliff
>> and I I was just
>> they very they were very relaxed on you
know how how how I wasn't Orthodox to
begin with which the monks all knew I
was just a visitor I just described
myself as a Christian and so I go out
and I'm sitting at this I fell asleep
sort of napping
>> on this stone chair facing the church,
little church on the hill
>> into a stone courtyard, all stone
courtyard, very severe, very severe
looking thousand-year stones,
thousand-year walls, a thousand-year
throne that I'm there was the only chair
I'd call it [laughter] carved in the
stone wall
and I was sitting at it. It reminded me
of the scene out of like Conan the
Barbarian or something, you know? really
was that kind of a a feeling and with
the waves rushing crashing against the
the sea crashing against the walls way
below hundreds of feet below me
>> you know and beautiful just absolutely
gorgeous you know amazed messmerizing
balmy day so I'm just relaxed sitting
there fall asleep that's when I start
immediately went into this dream state
I realized this is one of those like
that's what had started to happen to me.
I knew when one of those meant it was
not a usual dream.
>> So your description of was it time
travel? I mean I would say that's a
possibility. I mean I don't know. I
can't
>> but I I felt like it was something
happening.
>> First you go to 1800's Paris.
>> Yes. I go to 1800 Paris and I I just
walking down these 18th century Paris
streets and I'm walking to a Bravo.
>> Yeah.
>> And I just want to see what's going on.
That's kind of a typical me thing. And
and that's when I encounter what turned
out to be the Virgin Mary. Didn't call
herself that, but I just felt I just
felt that without an introduction. And
this one open door was door was open and
it was like all the others. It had like
a waist bracket with with soiled condoms
and things, you know, and it looked
awful. blood on the sheets
>> and I was thinking ah this is awful and
I looked at the woman and she just
looked at me with these imploring eyes
just like the suffering of the world was
on her weight on her shoulder where what
better place to be to feel that with the
exploitation and things of this place
>> and it just the gravity of that hit me
because I'd also seen a scene where like
a rotund priest is of course this is
coming unbeknownst to me you know kind
of at the height of the sex scandals in
the Catholic church and things too so I
don't I'm tying these things together.
But it it just it was very depraved and
I felt I felt the depravity. I felt
nauseous in my own dream. And then yeah,
I walk outside the the Bravo and this
guy meet this guy outside.
>> Uhhuh.
>> And he says basically Odius Maximus and
go go atone for your sins kind of
conversation I have with this guy Harry
Hiller which was one of the characters
from from Herman Hess's Stephen Wolf.
And Harry Hiller basically encourages me
to go to Mount Aos to expune myself or
find clarity or
salvation or whatever the whatever I
could find.
>> So, okay. So, you're in 1800's Paris.
You meet Harry Hiller. You see this
scene and and you're confident be that
this is the Virgin Mary in this brothel
because of
>> it was
a conclusion I reached
not at the time but only after
>> it became a pattern
>> if that makes sense. So at the time I
wasn't entirely sure who this old woman
other than she didn't fit
>> and I could feel the suffering which
became a common every encounter with the
Virgin Mary. There was an element of the
weight of her suffering for the world
for the fate of the world
>> in particular for the fate of people who
are suffering for the pain and the agony
of others. This is the common feeling I
had each of the experiences but I didn't
know that at the moment. I just knew
that wow this is certainly disruptive.
>> Yeah.
>> You know so when I continued the dream
>> did you feel love coming from her or
should you
>> I didn't particularly feel love. I felt
more paos
>> like like like like her ultimate empathy
for everything right
>> and all suffering and all all beings or
something.
>> Nothing so much directed towards me.
What I I think I put in my mind more
than something she a vibe she gave was
the idea that I man I shouldn't be here.
>> Did she say anything to you?
>> No. Do you have you thought of the
symbolism of her being in a brothel
where all this kind of kind of you know
corrupt you know horrible deeds are are
being done or whatever like do do you do
you think of that as somehow significant
after? Yes. I mean certainly not at that
time again but certainly looking back I
realize how it fits so well into the
subsequent encounters and the the
pattern being okay you want you want an
image you want images of what I'm what I
mean by suffering.
>> This is the this is the image right?
>> What's what can be worse? There's very
few things that are worse than that.
Certainly the Holocaust. there are
things that are worse than what I what
she she showed me the reaction everyone
should have to this or her reaction to
this reality of the world that I was
seeing with her at that moment
>> and and sort of stumbled upon. So then
when I went back in time it became kind
of a then it became kind of a
disappearance of time to put me in the
right state of mind
>> to do the the exploration I needed to do
at Monalto. So the rest of the dream
sequence that I outline in it's called
the bizarre world of odius maximus in my
book because it's how bizarre I felt
when I knew it was still me but I'm
going now into this I have to adopt this
cover of a character so to speak which
is a CIA thing anyway so I should but it
was so it was so uni unusual and unique
to me that it was really scary I wasn't
sure I could not be that I wasn't sure
that I'd ever be Ralph again. So then
I'm going back in time as I'm traveling
as you would in those days to Athens and
then from Athens to and with every step
I'm taking the time is going back in
time
>> and and by the time I get to Mount Aos
at the capital city which I had sort of
landed in when I came off the boat in
real life now and to where I had the
dream a couple days ago getting there. I
saw that town again, but back in back in
the 1500s, you know, and I go there and
I present my credentials, so to speak,
at the capital to say, if you will, the
governance uh people there, including
this guy, Monk Gabriel, who was the
head.
>> So, Harry Hiller is this character
that's in 19th century Paris-ish.
>> I leave him.
>> You leave him. He said, but he says,
"You are Odius Maximus. You must go to
Mount Aos." You go to Mount Aos and then
all of a sudden you're like a few
hundred years earlier in history. So
like 1400s, 1500s.
>> Correct.
>> And you
>> trapped up there essentially.
>> Trapped up there. Did was there a
gradient of time moving backwards from
the 1800s to the 14 or 1500s or like all
of a sudden you're in Mount like when
you guys it was a gradient. It was a it
was as if time was evaporating. the way
like with each step you could like it
got that was what was so uh say very
unnerving was going back in time but
feeling it happening as it's happening
>> and it's getting and I was trying to
adjust but it was getting too difficult
to go so I tried to limit any contact
with anybody like on a ship or on a
coach or as I'm going back because I
didn't want anybody
>> say anything that would think I was some
insane person and throw me in some
>> You also don't want to alter the future
forever. with variable or something.
>> I did not think that but that's a good
thought. I did not think I remember not
thinking anything profound. It was like
pure survival. I remember being in pure
survival mode including
>> uh I would say my mind I was I I hoped I
wasn't losing my mind to the point where
you know whatever the the the say
inspiration was to adopt this way of
thinking of myself as being a very
ownorous bad person that I would overdo
that again. I mean that wasn't really
the point. And I kept reassuring myself,
but I would have to play this out. So I
get up there and I describe this and the
long and the short of the monks take me
in even though they argued against it.
But this Gabriel, he saw something in me
and he said, "We we're here to like
Peter said, open our house to those who
need it. This this man needs it." So I
get assigned to the monastery at Don
Donio, which is where I happened to be
when I was having the dream.
>> Do all does all of this feel as real as
this interview feels?
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it feels like
any sort of real experience that you've
had. It's indistinguishable
>> pretty much. It's there there are things
that occasionally in all the dreams like
the the uh Sadat dream and I had had uh
other you know dreams also which I lay
out pretty much all of them that I can
remember in in the book. I had a dream
of basketball game dream even like when
I was a a teenager and when I did I I
knew immediately qual qualitative
reality in those dreams was close to
reality but I could usually still
understand it was a dream
>> if that makes sense. So in this dream, I
still knew I was in a dream.
>> I could still distinguish the Ralph I
was from the character going back in
time,
>> but otherwise outside
>> outside of that, it seemed totally real
to the point where I don't think there
were historical like you've seen movies
where there things in in movies that
shouldn't be there at a historical time.
You know, I didn't see telephones in the
16th century or things you shouldn't
see, you know.
>> Were you wearing your clothing from
>> And it changed. It was changing. It was
going back time.
>> So your clothing was becoming more and
more appropriate for the time.
>> Well, I also found myself and I don't
remember specifics on this trying to
find more appropriate stuff so I
wouldn't look like a space traveler back
in the 17th century or [clears throat]
you know I was trying to like like a
person would do to try to fit in. I was
trying to alter my look and
>> things like that. I was getting a beard
because I didn't shave. You know I
remember those kinds of details. So when
I'm at the monastery then it got deeper
and deeper into what monks do which I
learned a lot about through the dream
but also through what turned out to be
two trips there spending a grand total
of a month in Monathos. That's a the end
at the end of the story. That's what it
consisted of because I got of course
very into this to understanding not just
a dream but then the encounter that
followed which was the idea that you you
live a a life in in a monastery.
A lot of people just sort of quickly
jump to the conclusion that's world
evasion. You just want to avoid the
world. You want to go off in yourself.
It's very selfish. So I understand
people when they say that about monastic
lifestyles. I don't feel that h in large
measure because I had this dream where I
experienced it on such an intense level
because in for some people it's the only
way they can pursue God. It's the only
way they can be close to God. It's the
only way they can get themselves closer
to God. They don't give up on the world
in most cases. They're not doing it to
avoid the world most. They're doing it
to get close to God. Sometimes as a
consequence of those other things when
you do that. So I felt that. And so when
I experienced the the life up there was
not experiences I had felt spiritually
before which mean again this was a new
reality I was learning from. It wasn't
just adapting what I already knew and
living it vicariously as a monk. It was
something very different through the
character I became in the monastery. I
was growing. I was developing. I became
a recluse up there. you know, I learned
to fly, you know, and I remember the and
I've talked to other people who have had
the flying experience.
>> That's a different conversation we can
have one day. I cuz I've had reactions
from people who read that part of my
book and said, "Oh, I can I've done
that. I've I've been able to fly." You
know, for me, flying was a
manifestation. The more I think about
it, I see it as as a a reward almost of
some in a way a reward you're not asking
for, but it's a tribute to
opening your mind.
>> And when you're flying, you're
spiritually
open.
>> You're just in a different state of
consciousness than you are when you're
just praying,
>> if that makes sense.
And what we talked about even right
before the interview is what I didn't
expect to find was as I went through the
whole experience here is the flying monk
and the I burned my hut up there like
all the things a recluse does.
>> Were you doing you were burning your hut
there?
>> Yes. I Yes.
>> And so this is happening across
months or day week.
>> In in the dream it's months in reality
it's the course of the dream which I
that's that's easy for me to do years in
a dream. But this in my dream stay it
was weeks days went to weeks went to
months.
>> And so you are aware that your reality
has drastically shifted from Yes.
>> 20th century Ralph. Yes. CIA case
officer
>> right
>> to it was trying to catch the spy on
Mount Aos to it's like you entered a
portal and you were here for days upon
days and you were going to sleep and
waking up within this.
>> Yes. within the dream.
>> That is fascinating.
>> Well, the the biggest thing about it was
I knew at the time I had the dream as I
was dreaming that I was dreaming and I
might not be able to get back. That was
the scariest thing was I felt trapped
>> and I wasn't sure I was going to wake up
and and at one point um I told one of
the emissaries. So this father Gabriel
who I got to kind of know through sent
this other young monk called Ivagrias
and he would come and meet me and I
remember my encounters with him and he
was encouraging me and we were talking
all the time and I remember some of
those I just put a snippets of them in
the dream and I frankly forgot some of
them but I just knew that was a really
live that was my only contact with a
human being when I was a recluse stage
which was when I was doing the flying
about and he told me yeah the other
monks had seen me and wondered if it was
real. So I remember that stuff. It was
just so palpable. But then I of course
had three dreams within a dream. And now
we're reaching the culmination of the I
would call the fruition of the dream.
The point of the dream was what follows.
>> I the farther I'm getting away from
myself, the farther I'm detaching my my
faith in God from a selfish interest in
me. That's when I start flying. That's
when I start my spiritual growth is
happening. when I'm being less selfish
when I'm joining sort of I call the
general universal salvation idea of
mankind if I'd call it that and the more
intense my spiritual experiences were
getting within my dream to the point
then I had three dreams within a dream
and and very quickly cuz one and they
were very intense. One night I go to
sleep in my dream and I have a dream
where I'm in the middle of a big room
>> and we all have to go pick numbers from
looks like a barberh shop number thing.
You pull the number and I got my number.
Two-digit number. Oh, I don't remember
the number. It's too bad. It could have
been it would have been great to add to
the number collection. I I was so
frustrated. I forgot the number, but it
was two-digit number. And everybody got
a two-digit number. I thought, well,
this is very strange. There way more
than two 20 or 99 of us here. What's the
uh what's the what's the number? Didn't
nobody explained anything. Nobody
talked. It was just murmuring, walking
around. Then I then I woke up. The
barber shop clang with the number. I
pulled the number up. I woke up from the
dream within a dream. It startled me. So
then in my dream the next day, I go to
bed. I go to sleep in my hut and I have
another dream. It's a second dream. Now
in that dream now I'm standing in the
room again. It's a big round room with
seven doors.
And I'm looking at my number and I'm I
just had this wild thought which I had
never thought religiously like until the
dream. I thought, man, what a bummer.
I mean, we're all going to go through
these doors, I guess, and these numbers
must be And we were wearing clothes.
They they issued clothes and I had fine
clothes, I remember, with brown suede
shoes.
>> Yeah.
>> And some people were with rags. And I
saw an old woman in the corner. [snorts]
who again I thought is this the Virgin
Mary the same woman I met in the in in
in in Paris. I I didn't know. So I I I
don't want to overstate it but I thought
is that her? And uh I said well we'll
see what happened. I kept my eye on her
but I didn't want to go up to anybody or
say anything. It was like everything in
this I was just like trying to survive.
I really I was trying to survive even in
my dream within a dream. And then the
doors open. Seven doors open and we had
to walk through the doors. And I
remember thinking the heretical thought
like in a way of doubting God again.
>> What if my numbers like right under the
ones that are going to heaven, I'm going
to hell. I mean, imagine missing by one
number.
>> But it's kind of stupid thought you like
if the situation were real. That's a
real thing.
>> If there's such a thing as heaven and
hell, right? Which I've never believed
after this and other things that there's
such a literal thing
>> as that. I think heaven and hell is in
your mind.
but partially because of this. So then
the boom wake up again startled by this
the doors groaning and having to walk
through them and then the third dream is
walking through the door and I remember
it very carefully particularly I reread
it you know
last night actually where I'm standing
at the beach and it brought it all back
to me really clearly. There was a dark
dark night not a star in the sky. I
remember that but the sun it was bright
light. I thought, well, the sun's not
up, but it was a bright light on the
other side of the And I remember
thinking of the contradiction that the
sun's not out. What's that light? It
wasn't the moon. There's something very
bright on the other side of the
seashore. And it was like a river kind
of thing, uh, river, like a wide river
and it was turning dark and I could
tell, we were all being encouraged. We
knew no one was saying anything,
announcing anything, but you had to walk
across the river to the other side.
which I took at that time I this must be
salvation the salvation test of
salvation for all of us
>> and I'm walking on the top of the water
like Christ you know in Galilee you know
and I'm thinking oh this can't hold me
with my brown suede shoes and
I but it started to work and I said well
if I put all my effort into my faith
maybe I'll make it to the other side
>> and then people are plunk I heard plunk
like it was a terrible sound like
somebody Oh, into the water and being
swept away in the depth. So, you
couldn't see below except like an inch
below your shoes. And I was wor stupidly
thinking my shoes are getting wet. I
mean, I I remember thinking that. I was
thinking, "Oh, these shoes are going to
get ruined. They're going to be
stained." I really did. And, uh, and
then, you know, sure enough, uh, I get
halfway across and I'm think, I can do
this. I can make this. And then the old
woman's right next to me and she
stumbles and loses her step. And I
instinctively just tried to grab her arm
to hold her up and we both went swept
away and I woke up.
>> The Virgin Mary.
>> Well, I I don't
>> what you interpret.
>> What I interpret probably because it
tied into the but then here the final
scene
>> is that I wake up.
>> This is the I'm done with the dream.
That was
>> getting swept away was the final part of
the dream. So I wake up at the throne
sitting there and and uh I realized I
saw a light in the church. This was like
this from from distance maybe we're
going to say 6 7 yards or whatever it is
15 ft to your windows over there right
that's where the wall of the church was
with the windows stained glass kind of
windows I had and I saw this red light h
moving along the thing and I got up out
of the chair I moved toward the window
and it gone all the way up to the front
you know of the church the altar and was
sitting there burning you
red
and now I think but the lights are
related the light and the the red light
of course of the model and the red light
of Mary and I so I attached the all the
Marys together the
>> in the dream this must be the but I but
to be clear I had never seen the Virgin
Mary so I saw the dream image of her and
then I saw the light which I took to be
I took that light immediately when I saw
it I talked to a monk the next day I
said Um, I saw this mysterious light in
the church after it was closed and it
moved from here to here. I thought he
would just say, "Oh, come here. Were you
dreaming something?" I said, "Well, I
was awake." I said, but he said, "No,
that he said this. It was like his name
was Monk Timothus." And [gasps] I I
ended up going back to my house, seek
him out. And he ended up taking me back
to his cell that they call it where they
live, their little like bunk and in a
stone place, really really austere, you
know, rugged kind of living conditions.
And gave me he had like 10 books on his
shelf. if he gave me three of them about
aos cuz he said I just want you to read
more about this cuz this seemed like you
saw that for a reason. He goes there pe
monks who have said they've seen the
this is the light of the Virgin Mary
going down the
>> the thing and I it seems like you might
have seen that. I don't understand it.
He was very confused by it because he
said you're not even he even tested me.
He said you're not even orthodox. He
said no no he went through that. He said
well I don't know but I'm not going to
doubt it. And that's when he gave me and
I kept those books for I still have
those books and I read them. When you
wake up and you're at the church and you
see the red light. Yeah. Yeah.
>> And maybe that's somewhat symbolic of
the Virgin Mary.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Is that in 19 is that 1990s or is that
>> that's 199 that's that's 1991.
>> Okay. So you basically you go back to
1800's Paris then you go to Mount Aos.
Mount Aos is days turn into months. You
are Odius Maximus. this monk
>> who goes through all these kind of
eskeetic protocols and you know you're
fasting and you say you you're burning
your huts and stuff. Well, when then I
finally requested permission to go away
from the monastery and just be a recluse
in the wild in the wilderness, you know,
like there's a there's a tradition
there. Some monks go out and they just
separate themselves from everybody, even
their fellow monks. And the only time
they see their anybody is they come in
to get provisions or medical emergency
or something. I mean, they don't
completely abandon all ties to
civilization, if that you call that
civilization. and they just limited as
much as possible to get even closer and
closer. And uh in fact, I ended up
meeting a recluse who I feel was like
kind of full circle experience that I
actually met a real recluse the second
time I went to Mount Aos and uh who gave
me a book and it was tremendous
conversation we had about the
apocalypse. I mean here normal people
get together. I'm sitting on a curb, you
know, with this guy and talking about
things and he's asking me who I was and
where I worked and I have a family back
and this and he said, "I haven't seen
anybody in a few weeks. This is kind of
nice." He was carrying bags of um he's
carrying some some lettuce and one bag
plastic bag and the other bag he's
carrying a baguette. You know, he's
going back to the wild into the woods.
But anyway, he stopped and chatted me up
and the next thing you know, we're
talking for a couple hours on turn that
into the apocalypse and everything else.
It was amazing. like we both had studied
the same books
>> about this. But that's that's aside
that's just the idea what it meant when
I went into this. It was almost like I
needed this full circle which is so much
of the story for me where the things are
explained later. So when I at the time I
saw the light of the Virgin Mary, I mean
I honestly didn't think that much of it.
It was a light, maybe it was a light.
Even the image of the old woman, maybe
it was her, maybe it was not her, that
so I had all those things. You know, the
dream itself is the way you describe and
that has its own it's its own story in a
way, but it wasn't until
two more things that happened with the
Virgin Mary that it all came together.
[gasps]
>> It's fascinating. And you also then come
to realize that there had been Virgin
Mary apparitions all over Mount A.
>> Not at this point.
>> Okay. That was so but later
>> I had talked to people there later.
Everything was later. uh including the
story of the Virgin Mary being on the
mountain that I'd learned in wasn't
until 2006 or se seven 2007 that I heard
some of the backstory of the history and
lore that included the site and that's
so I'll save that because at this point
I don't know any of this including I
wasn't ready at that point prepared in
the sense of thinking it would happen to
me so there was no predisposition
for example to actually meet the Virgin
Mary or understand what you know like
what has happened historically with the
Virgin Mary. Some people ask me that
well when you started to have your
Virgin Mary experiences were they in any
way because you read about you know
lords or Fatima and all this said well I
honestly knew nothing about any of that
at this point and this was 1991.
>> What did you find out later in 2006 and
7 about the Virgin Mary showing up at
Mount Aos? because I think it's very
fascinating that there's some historical
corroboration and other people are
experiencing right what you're
experiencing spiritually in this
specific location. Well, I find out that
uh there's at least a legend lore that
they they have at Mount Aos that the
Virgin Mary after Christ was uh
crucified and rose from the dead was uh
traveling uh along with other uh
Christians at the time or apostles
around and ships and what go of course
they were all based in Corinth and
places like that. So she was on a ship
on its way to sea of all things. uh pot
John at Potmos and also uh to um um go
to Cyprus because Lazarus supposedly
fled Israel when the Romans started
looking for him because they wanted to
execute him as being this person who
rose from the dead. A very disruptive
idea that Jesus was going around raising
people from the dead, right? It was the
reason why the both the Jews and the
Romans saw the early Christians they
called the way at that point. They
weren't called Christians as being uh
the sabotur disruptive to to order and
and society. So they're look hunting him
down actually. So he fled apparently and
I didn't believe that story either until
I believe I didn't like maybe it's true
maybe it's not. And there's actually if
any anybody listeners goes to to
Nicicoia Cyprus, I urge you to to take a
look at the uh Lazarus's tomb
>> which is supposedly in Cyprus was where
he went and became the first bishop
>> starting the church in in in there. So
Mary was supposedly traveling on a ship
and there was a big storm which that
part of the Aian is famous for that
going all the way back to the Spartans
and the Athens having huge summer storm
that ruined fleets and everything
shipwrecked sheet fleets and uh she got
blown on the island of Monathos and
there's a monastery on placed on the
site where she supposedly landed went
ashore called
on the uh it's on the west coast of this
peninsula at that monastery and south
part of the monastery and I've been to
that monastery but it wasn't until this
20056 period when a monk told me the
whole story about this little icon in a
hut right on the shore that this is hut
this is supposedly the spot where she
she landed at that time I said wow this
is got way more and of course I I've
sent my book and gotten letters back
from the Vatican and also from from the
Orthodox orthodox church hierarchy in u
in in Istanbul Turkey And the the the
letter I got from the Orthodox church
was really priceless. It said basically
you you know we wish you had become one
of us and still join the Catholics but
we still consider you you know a friend
a friend of ours and your book is in our
library and his eminence is Reddit and
and all that because I really
appreciated that because I I've said to
many people the the accident of me being
Catholic Orthodox is not what any of
this is about.
>> Right. And I think they appreciated that
Mary belongs to the world, not to
Catholics or Orthodox. Orthodox in
Monos, they consider her the whole
object of the veneration of that the
mountain is dedicated to, which is why
women to this day can't go. Now, I think
this is misguided, just to put that out
there. But women to this day cannot go
on Monaos,
step foot on Monaos because it's
dedicated completely to Mary at the
exclusion of all women. As I said, this
is not I think this is veneration that
goes too far. But the point of it is to
emphasize how fundamental Mary's uh
history and role
is.
>> Have other visitors or pilgrims
experienced uh Mary that explicitly just
like you.
>> Oh yes.
>> At Manos specifically.
>> Yes. Yes. and and uh I can't like
enumerate you know their examples and
but I I know it's not a unique
phenomenon so much so that I would say
what's like I'm having with you Jesse
this is highly unusual to have an easy
conversation on these subjects right you
you can do that most people can't what's
been very gratifying is that I never
bring it up the subjects any of these
subjects almost except the just you know
obviously the intelligence and all
history and all that I do but any of the
the the religious or go focus on God
with anybody who doesn't bring it up and
then [clears throat] I usually bring it
up and and I found some very fascinating
takes or or additions that people have
to make on what I've said that they've
experienced like really close friend of
mine I would never expected this came to
me especially to say he's had very vivid
dreams of flying
>> uh after reading about that part of my
book and it's it's it's very gratifying
to hear I've also had more basic things
of people saying, you know, why would
you join a church with all this that you
describe yourself in your book as having
all this sex abuse and this and that.
And I said, well, I said, I never give
up on the church like I I never give up
on your faith, but that those kinds of
conversations have been the great
the great gifts of of writing writing
writing the book.
>> So, while you're at Mount Aos and you're
this character, Odius Maximus,
what do you feel like it is? So you feel
like it's your mission to get closer to
God by sort of detaching yourself from
the contemporary world in some ways and
to so what what are you doing on a
day-to-day basis? You're are you're
fasting and you're you're praying or
what's your what's your day-to-day life
like? And again, this feels as real as
right
>> you waking up, you know, in in you know,
Maryland where you live, right?
>> Yeah. Well, there I remember feeling a
bit of a uh
contradiction of feelings
>> on the one hand being there and doing
things like tending to the grapes and
cleaning the dishes, you know, until I
become a recluse. Then it's just trying
to survive in the wild and you know that
kind of thing. Doing a like continual
prayer, that kind of thing. But up until
that point, I'm thinking, man, this is
I'm I'm also miserable. I want to go
home.
So I never lost the feeling I wanted
out.
>> Do you feel stuck?
>> I felt stuck. Yeah, I said that a few
times. But I felt very stuck when I was
in the recluse phase. But I I understood
without any like there was no messaging
or voicing or which I've never heard by
the way with mystical experiences any
like audio. It's interesting real audio
real talking words. But it was the idea
that uh I needed to do this to go home.
I needed to go through these different
levels of this experience and the dream
before I could.
>> No one said that but is I knew it. I
knew that until I had gone through the
different levels of what was expected. I
couldn't go. It was almost like it was a
spiritual training. I the Jesuits call
it their spiritual uh exercises that
they go through is this was much more
intense in the dream.
>> How old were you as Ralph when you went
back when you timeraveled as Zodius
Maximus? How old were you
>> in my real life? Yeah. In your real
life.
>> So it's 1991
and I'm born in 54.
>> So it's what?
>> Yeah. 37.
>> Interesting.
>> Yeah.
>> And so you're comm you're communing with
Gabriel and the other monks as well.
>> Did you ever tell them, hey, like I'm
kind of trapped here, but
>> Oh, the only Yeah. No,
>> I actually exist in the future.
>> No, no, it was like a cover. I was
living my cover until at the very end
near the end after you know in one of
the times I wore the brown the brown
suede shoes in my dream within a dream
and then they were suddenly under my
hut. So they're in the dream now. They
they had gone from the dream within the
dream to somehow appearing in my dream
and that was very discombobulating.
Right. And and at that point when
Ivagrias came back on another to check
check on me, make sure I was hadn't
plunged off a cliff or something. Um I
told him I told him I who I really was
and and and I remember the reaction. I I
I had to by the way I never
knew exactly all some of the things I
said, but I knew that all of it was
consistent. So when I had to create
dialogue with Evagrias on this scene in
my book that I don't remember exactly
sure what the dialogue was
>> as with waking memory,
>> right? So I did I did with my best. So I
don't want anybody out there to think
I've got this photographic memory or
anything but it's very close.
>> So what what did you refer
>> the main thing I remember that I based
the dialogue I created on [gasps]
uh was to be true to that was the idea
that Evagrias was wise beyond his years.
He was a young spry little monk, wise
beyond his years. And when I told him
the reality, I did it because I knew he
was wise. And I I I needed somebody to
tell. And it was him. He was a someone I
could trust. and and he reacted in a way
that ful, you know, redeemed
my my idea that this was a good time to
do it by by basically reacting as I
would have hoped, which is I hope you
get back to your your family and and you
know, keep praying to God and and God
will take care of you. uh in a way that
I real I suddenly felt a sense of peace
knowing this wasn't going to go without
somebody knowing what had happened to me
and maybe I will get back because I
think this guy would offer me some
wisdom and insight into that and he did.
Did he freak out at all and say what you
exist in the future? Did you
>> No. No. Did you say there's this place
it's called America or the United States
and it it ends up breaking off from, you
know, England in 1776. Did you have to
like go through any of that or he just
kind of took it on its more spiritual
dimension or something and kind of ran
>> Jesse, there was one there was one
thing. No, I didn't do any of that, but
I made a big slip up
>> early on that I realized and nobody
called me on and I think they knew there
was something really wrong. going back
to my presentation of my credentials so
to speak to Gabriel
>> when I said I was Odius Maximus and all
this stuff not who I was and but I did
say something really absurd
>> where I said you know I'm an American
mystic
>> because I knew I'd had to present myself
as a mystic because I wouldn't be able
to go through any grilling on doctrine
or theology or stuff they might expect.
So, I had to play the mystic card
>> and which then you maybe don't or you
can grunt or I I was going to fake it in
a way that I knew I couldn't if I had
actually explained my knowledge of
liturgy or or anything else. And they
they saw through it and he did. But he
had pity, right? That was the earlier
description. But I said at the time and
I'm an American mystic thinking I came
from this continent called that didn't
exist, right? At least in their minds,
nobody said anything. Uh and so when I
presented the story at the end of my
real name and future, I'm from the
future to this monk, he seemed to take
it all in stride. And it it's really
interesting because if there are people
I think who understand the notion of
future time travel, there's no super
religion, no super um spiritual person
in at least in the Christianity.
uh I think all of them honestly and the
monotheistic religions who aren't able
to separate time from discussion in a
way where they're comfortable with the
idea past future cuz for one thing the
most cred credible um witnesses to
what's going to come and what the past
means are the prophets
>> right it's Ezekiel Daniel Revelations uh
John it's it's Christ who talked about
the raising of Jerusalem. It's the
history of the church is in question
when people in fact but even Christ
himself said he can't predict when the
future ends or that's up to God.
>> So there are limits and I don't look at
prophets as soothsayers in the you know
sort of Shakespearean tradition of ides
of March or no prophets are those who
can see into the future what happens
they don't influence it.
if that makes sense. Do you think right
now as we speak, Ralph is also Odius
Maximus living in 15th century Mount
Aos, Greece, trying to, you know,
commune with God.
>> Oh, wow. That's those See, now we're
getting into fun stuff. But but I mean,
everything I've said is a product of
>> You could speculate, you know.
>> All right. And I will and I'll just say
as a preface that everything I say on
this subject is not is really
philosophical science. It's it's it it's
drawn from my greatest love
intellectually in the world which is
philosophy which is what the the search
the love of wisdom right the love of
knowledge and and so in that spirit um I
I think that
it's possible and my experiences bear
this out for me that the dreams we
create are as real as physical reality
we're in which means the answer to your
question would be yes because if I
dreamt it and it I created it
>> and it felt real it felt real and I
created it. Now, the more you get into
whether you're
>> taking a trip um taking a trip so to
speak in reality versus like I make this
great distinction which I'm not sure is
as great a distinction as bright lines
as I make it between when I met the
Virgin Mary and when I've had
interactions just like when you pray to
God and you you think you're getting
responses and telling versus actually
like meeting God.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But let's let's go go
a little deeper into this Odius Maximus
example. Do you think that that is a
real historical figure?
>> Yeah, I know he is. That's that was one
of the ironies. So to my great shock,
great shock. This was like a a wonderful
shock. I went when I went back to AOS in
So Mary, one of the things Mary said to
me at the end of the experience in Paris
in 1998, I I neglected to mention at the
first iteration, she said, "We will meet
again." Like a reassurance, we will meet
again.
So I, oh, this is so great, you know,
because this is like so this is the
highlight of my life kind of thing. And
uh
part of that would be come back and
visit me at Monopol again where it all
started. So it took me a long time
between 1998 took me about seven years
[laughter]
to go back. I said seven years that
interesting and I went back to Monathos
and back at the Holy Mountain only
because I felt the Virgin Mary would now
be my tour guide.
>> So I did something kind of
extraordinary. I got the Greeks to allow
me. I knew the I was still like with
CIA, like associated with CI. I was at
Department of Energy at that time, by
the way, head of intelligence there, but
I still had all my contacts and friends
at CIA, including the guy who was head
of our office in Athens, right? And uh I
lined it up with him. He's a close
friend of mine, and he was also,
interestingly enough, a religious
scholar as CIA officer, but he lined me
up with a month-long visa. Now, normally
someone like me, I could only get three
days. And I gotten one and I'd never get
another one, but he had his contacts and
they explained my past and they were
like, "Oh, this good stuff." And and I
got a month. So, I I knock on the door
at Caras. I feel like I feel a little
bit like uh uh Alice in Wonderland or
something. And and and sort of my
mentality, right? Going back and just
like I'm just going to soak it all in
and and I felt guided the whole time.
And unlike most people, I didn't have to
register what monastery I went to, what
nights. I just go one of the 20 mon and
they have a number of what they call
skets.
>> SKs are like minors. They're not
considered monasteries. They're one or
two monks there and they're safeguarding
a specific tradition or history of
Monatos. So, for example, was one and I
wandered and ran into these things. It's
a huge peninsula if you look on a map,
but I was wandering around and running
these things like I was being guided.
And I felt like I was going from place
to place, showing up un unannounced,
spending a night, going off into the
woods. By the way, just as a hiker
adventure, it's like the most one of the
most wonderful places on the planet. So
I end up at St. Ansky, which is where
St. An's named in honor of Mary's
mother, Anne. I didn't even know that
historical fact at that time. Now later,
I would many things. So, I got into
biblical archaeology and lived in the
Middle East. I got into all of this
stuff. And just as an aside, when I
didn't I I didn't just do biblical
archaeology of meaning Christian. I did
Old Testament, Judaism, Islam, all.
>> Did you try to find certain?
>> Oh, I tried to find I tried to find all
kinds of but anyway St. Anski they, you
know, claimed to have her bones, some of
her bones or whatever. So, I mean, I'm
kind of fascinated with that stuff, too.
So, I And then the next day, I I take
off from there. I said, "Well, I've been
introduced to Mary's mother. That would
be something she would want." So, I take
off from there and I go down the
coastline. I catch a boat, go around the
corner, the the the horn of uh Mon Mount
Aos, and I end up at this bottom of this
pier with a big walk up a side of a
mountain. And coincidence, right?
Coincidence is this uh monk walks by
with the donkey. He was going to go up
there. Little monk and I'm got my big
backpack. And so, I'm a month. I got a
big pack back. one backpack for the
month, but that's, you know, I got
everything in it. And he goes, "Hey, why
don't you take my donkey to the top of
the mountain?" I said, "This poor
donkey, are you sure you want to do it?"
He goes, "He's used to it." So the the
guy just slaps him in the rear and off
we go. And I'm sitting straddling this
donkey up this cliff, afraid like I
wouldn't want to let the monk down. I
was afraid I was going to go off the
side and off the into a cliff, an abyss,
you know, is that kind of a thing. And
then it starts raining and it's getting
very steady donkey just up the mountain.
get to the top of the mountain. There's
nobody there. There are no pilgrims.
There's nobody there. I walk into into
the entrance of the ski
and this guy comes out, greets me, young
young monk, probably you know 30s. He's
the guy caretaker there and he goes,
"Let me tell you this history of this
ski. It's called the ski cafakia
casolvakia."
I said, "Oh, that's hard to say. It's a
mouthful." He goes, "Yeah, this is named
in in the honor of one of the saints we
have here, St. Kafos was known as
Maximos the monk. He was not Odius
Maximos and he was known as a flying
monk and he burned his huts and he had
these miracles and there were sightings
of him flying. I almost lost I mean I I
lost not lost is not the right
expression but I was had a like gasping
for air
just at the thought
I had made this up.
>> So
>> this had a this had a historical
connection and I was there. Now normally
you could go a month and a month off you
never run into this place but here I was
standing right at the front door so to
speak.
>> Well you were you were meant to have
that running. Well, by now I'm not
doubting things like that. You can take,
by the way, I don't want to people go
now think everything that happens to
them is not by chance. And but you also
have to be attuned to the possibility
things aren't coincidence. It's not
believing everything is not a
coincidence. It's getting the right
being able to make a right judgment of
when things aren't just coincidence.
>> Yeah. I think discernment is
>> viewing patterns and synchronicities as
>> right
>> possibly very meaningful and being
attuned to them but not always like
>> taking them at face value and but I I
mean yeah you could literally right now
Google Maximos Katakovia and this is
this
flying monk from Mount Aos and he was
known for burning his huts and so it's
it is fascinating that you went back in
time not having And you had no context,
>> no idea.
>> And then you you find real historical
corroboration for this through happen
stance and this is just online like
people can search this open source.
That's that's pretty remarkable and
interesting.
>> Do you think this was you know people
talking about like past life
regressions? Do you think this was like
a past life for you or
>> Well, I don't I haven't really thought
of that. I don't think of I don't I I
don't say I don't believe in
reincarnation, but nor do I reject
reject it. I I just I mean I don't know.
I don't have I do I do have a fairly
strong
uh discipline in submitting
everything we've talked about to a high
degree of scrutiny
>> to the point where and we you and I have
talked about this where sometime I'm
reticent to say the full to provide the
full effect of what I think I've learned
or what I experienced because I don't I
don't want to the one thing I can't do
is misstate any of this cuz that
judgment comes down on me from God.
>> Yeah.
>> And God knows. So you go through all
this trouble to tell a story about your
devotion to God and how you fulfill your
destiny as being
>> to fulfill God's will and do the right
thing and do right by people, which is
what it all boils down to really does.
>> I can't misspeak on that. I, you know,
so I I'm not going to inflate or or add
to an experience. So the idea of like I
I love exploring with you. I'm just
being careful for your listeners and
others. I I we could talk about that
over a beer or something. I go far way
far way farther. I I don't know. I I I
think there's evidence that out there
that's like all the things all the
phenomena you research, Jesse.
>> It should all be researched.
>> We should be very cherry of drawing
conclusions to things that are that we
don't have really solid evidence for.
But nor should we be so
>> so respectful of conventional wisdom.
Yes. science that we don't explore it
>> and you should also give yourself the
grace to speculate a have you know
everybody has a game of telephone
they're playing in their mind where they
they don't remember anything accurately
that's ever happened to them one to one
perfectly
>> uh but also the ability to speculate
which I know you do but uh yeah
>> I do I do and the thing about these
experiences that I'm I've described is
that they do form a pattern and the
pattern becomes a major part of their
authentication you know as a as being
genuine
>> truth related things not truth seeeking
u rather than self focused or
self-fulfilling I think part of the
dreams at monos that I experienced was a
necessary part of my own um
faith-based development that I would the
more you
the more you discuss or try to convey a
belief in God the more you have to
remove yourself as the object of your
intentions.
>> This is one of the most important things
I can say. If you're uh you know one of
the apostles who followed and I'm not
I'm not putting myself on any level with
the people I'll describe. You have to be
willing to be a martyr to to pull that
truth forward and become part of human
history because God needed Christ needed
them to go out as they did all over the
world
>> uh in the way they did and they needed
in a way that one of the proofs they
were willing to do is lay down their own
lives for
>> for the truth. And it's easy to say lay
down your life for the truth, but you
know it's a harder thing to do it. And
the other thing is to not do it for
their own benefit because you can even
lay your life down for the truth because
you think it's to your benefit, but it's
not even your goal.
>> At some point, you try to eliminate
yourself. the the object the the
paragraphs I wrote of my time at
Monathos in my dream. I tried to be very
[snorts] very careful to describe the
essence of what I was experiencing in
the dream which was this process of
shedding myself. It's the reason when I
read Meister Eart or somebody like that
he talks about looking down at God not
up. It's it's a psychological thing you
know ashes to ashes dust to dust. the
more you can remove yourself from any
honor or glory in faith,
the closer the more responsibility God
will give you, if that makes sense, to
promote the faith because it can't be
about you. And there's a that was Yeah.
Well said. There's um a Yale professor,
he's very well respected uh religious
studies professor named uh Carlos Ayer.
He wrote a book called They Flew and
it's all about flying saints and monks
and St. Joseph the the divine St. Joseph
of Certino is probably the most famous
example. I think he was 16th century.
You have Teresa Vila who also seemed to
experience um you know billocation and
all these sort of other paranormal
things. Even St. Francis of Bisi by some
accounts might have levitated,
>> right?
>> And so this is actually and this guy
came went into this research thinking,
>> oh, you know, this must have been
written about sort of historically in
this sort of metaphorical way. and he
came out of it being like, "No, there
there are enough there's enough
eyewitness testimony around these flying
saints uh to to call it history and it's
well beyond the threshold of evidence
we'd need to say that like the War of
1812 was fought or whatever." And and he
I think he truly believes that. And you
know, I have a friend named Diana Pasila
who's a religious studies professor at
UNC Wilmington. She's gone very deep on
St. Joseph of of Certino and she has
gone through a lot of his files and she
agrees with that. So, and it's it's
across like you said it's across
different religions. So, maybe this is a
real phenomena where you do shed the
baggage of individual ego and you you
become one with God and you and you fly.
There's even in fact Jeffrey Kriel who's
a religious studies uh professor at uh
Rice University in Houston. He was
giving a lecture on flying saints at
MIT.
>> Oh wow.
>> And a guy who I've met actually who's
run runs revolutionary technologies at
skunk works. It's their most advanced
R&D division obviously of Loheed Martin
and he's running their most advanced R&D
division of skunk works. He attended the
lecture and was very interested in
flying saints. So
>> that's so great.
>> That's interesting.
>> That's so great.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, I I don't think
there's any question that once you start
believing in certain mystical
experiences, either because you've
experienced them yourselves or you've
heard such compelling tales like I read
Virgin Mary uh which I didn't know as I
stress a lot really the history of those
appearances and to now of course I I I
sort of study them to to look at the
similarities to hear the different
descriptions see how close they were to
mine. Uh and then it was very reassuring
is I see a sort of so many similarities
and commonalities. But the point is to
your explan I yeah you got to be willing
to believe all kinds of manifestations
what I would call the holy meaning
things that are not of human uh
construction or in our in our whether
it's our minds or even the what we call
the laws of physics they come from
something else. What's the physics of
that or where is that? The where might
even be, you know, not not a not a real
question because it may not be anywhere
in that sense. So we understand
location, right? Because what's location
outside of distance and move motion and
it's really nothing, right? So is it
over, under or side? I'm I'm not sure
it's relevant. But then you're getting
closer to all the mystics
>> because when they get together, I've
read, you know, some some really cool
stuff and I'd love to be in one of those
gatherings when Merton used to have them
in Asia and you had Buddhist uh mystics
and you had Islamic mystics and poets.
Hafi, for example, one of my favorite
talking about his love of God and the
heretics who were burned and things for
were going too far with things that were
mystical. uh they couldn't help
themselves because they were just
devoted to the truth.
>> Their crime is always was why why Elijah
was saw in half or this is is is
speaking truth to people don't want to
hear it
>> or sounding enigmatic because the their
prophecies or their what they see in the
future don't accord with the
conventional wisdom of the day.
>> That's usually the problem. So,
>> is there some version of that you think
you have some truth that from all these
mystical experiences you've come back
with that the average person might have
kind of an allergic reaction to or might
not want to hear? It might be an
uncomfortable truth.
>> Well, I think I think frankly average
person is probably uncomfortable all of
this.
>> Yeah.
>> Right. I mean, let's be honest, right?
And and it's the idea who do you think
you are? It starts with things like
that. It's and it it's the mistake of
course is over
over interpretation or look because I've
realized also this is just something
I've learned cuz I continue to
occasionally have enigmatic dreams. I
haven't met anything as vivid as in the
past. In fact, with age, it's less fewer
and fewer, which I I I when I was living
in the Middle East, I once went to my
Jesuit uh priest friend more than any
more than a spiritual adviser and said,
"Yeah, I just don't know what my purpose
is anymore now. I'm not meeting Virgin
Mary." I said, "I don't want to sound,
you know, like I should be meeting
Virgin Mary, but I sure miss it." And he
goes, "Well, have you tried praying to
her?" I said, "Well, I don't really pray
to the Virgin Mary. I I feel her
presence, but I pray to God. And I
prayed, you know, G Christ, that's it. I
don't pray to other people or other
things. But he said, "Well, you can
pray, but just let's don't get hung up
on the word. You can interact. You can
talk." And so I asked, I said, "Well,
you know, Mary, what
what's my why am I here? Like why am I
in the Middle East?" I have a sense I
was praying or thinking that there's a
reason I'm here. And then you brought me
here because why would we be here? And I
was spending all my time in five years
in the Middle East 2011 to 16. Spending
all my time on the road going I did
biblical archaeology.
I did, you know, went went on tour. I
went all over everywhere many times
over. Then later on, you know, in Saudi
Arabia, etc. And I said, there's got to
be a reason for this. So I just say just
just tell me so I know what I should
expect kind of thing. and uh got back
kind of a again nothing verbal or just a
an answer which was you're here to be
here
>> and it put me at ease. It was the idea
okay this is almost like I don't need to
overthink this. I think in in other
messages she says don't to you don't
strive don't try don't reach th
>> this was in well 1998 was when I seven
years after I met her at monos I met her
in Paris met the Virgin Mary so that
none of this discussion would be
occurring if I hadn't actually met the
Virgin Mary not and we call the
apparition I mean the Virgin Mary so I
had a was in Paris on a work trip for
CIA A uh I was doing actually Russian
things. I was heading up a lot of our
Russian CIS Russian activity at the time
1998. And so I'm in Paris for those
discussions with one other colleague.
and we both went, you know, we we we
signed up at a boutique hotel, 5-minute
walk from Arct Triumph kind of, you
know, place. And no, not from Arct from
from the American embassy down in the
southern part of the that lane, Arct
down there. Hotel Creon area. And we're
in the I'm in the hotel. It's a nice
little room. And it had a bed with a
oldfashioned hotel, really old. And it
had a table in front of me and had a
light switch on the wall, but small
room, typical French style. And went and
as I went to bed, thinking nothing in
particular except maybe my last thoughts
before going to sleep was going through
my notes in my mind of what we were
going to raise the next day.
And uh, as I like to joke, I didn't have
any weird food or anything else and went
to sleep and immediately was there like
in one of those dreams again.
And I knew it right away, but it was a
dream. I knew I was dreaming. So I'm by
a riverbank. So I'm thinking of the
river dream from way back, which was a
more raging river. This is a nice gentle
almost stream type river. And I'm
sitting at a river bank of grass, lush
grass. It's beautiful day. Again, balmy,
nice weather. I'm sitting on the top of
the little little mound that goes in
goes down into the stream and there's
nobody around. And I'm just thinking,
just relaxing. And then an old woman
comes dressed in a brown uh brown cloak
with a hood up and sits almost within
touching distance, but just outside my
reach
and sits there and stares looks ahead
too. And I I didn't want to disturb her,
so I didn't like introduce myself or say
anything. I just thought well maybe wait
for her to say hi or something. I won't
do it. And so we're just sitting there
and then it starts sprinkling
and it was the sun stayed up. The sun
didn't go away. So I thought it's just a
little sprinkle when the sun's out and
it's as it's hitting my skin. I remember
hitting my arm and hands first. I see
brown like oozing brown dirt.
And I thought, "Wow, this is really kind
of strange." And then I looked to see
what reaction the woman was having to
this strange rain. And I at that time
she went turned towards me and I felt
this kind of
ease e I felt really at ease and I fell
kind of backwards like almost like whoa
and into her arms.
And then I realized it was a Virgin
Mary. And I thought at the moment I
thought, okay, it's a dream. Um, and I
think this rain is like, I don't know,
purifying me or something. I just had
that weird thought. So then I wake up.
So I wake up in my room and I get up to
turn on the light cuz I need to clear my
head, you know. It's very jarring. It
was very jarring in a nice way, but very
jarring.
>> How'd you know it was the Virgin Mary in
the dream?
>> I just knew it then.
>> You just knew.
>> I just knew that was Virgin Mary. Unlike
the other things I said where I wasn't
as sure, this I knew right away this was
a Virgin Mary cuz I had had the one
experience too in Portugal where I met
the Virgin Mary but not in flesh and
>> in the mind kind of thing. So this was
like completely normal to me now.
>> The dream that I would have a dream like
this. It was not no longer some maybe
what all this was was preparation,
right?
>> Because all along the way I was getting
more and more used to the idea this
wasn't strange.
>> None of this was strange. This is all
part of a sort of a process in a way. So
I get up on the from the chair. I hit my
shin. I forget I hurt my my shin bone as
I got up. And that's how I kind of knew
I was awake. And then I saw this like
like we're sitting in a room here was in
that corner coming from the top of the
corner. A light coming down like this
radiant light. And Thomas Merin
described the light better than I could
when I read it in one of his books. cuz
he had some of these experience. It was
a light so bright
>> that it bore no resemblance to visible
light
>> if that makes sense. So it didn't
shine. You'd have to look away from it
was very bright and it came and set
straight in front of me when I was
standing up. I was still standing up.
Where the curtains are like right across
from me when I'm standing there and off
the ground
was the full image of the Virgin Mary.
>> Wow.
>> In your room.
>> In my room.
>> Wow.
>> So she was in the dream and then she
comes into your room.
>> Yeah. And I knew as I was standing there
I specifically
had the realization clear absolute
realization this is not a dream. In
fact, I kind of pinched. This is reality
as opposed to and the dream must be
preparation.
>> What happens next? So, she's in your
room.
>> She's in my room and then I I don't have
any conversations, but I can read her
mind or she can read my mind or vice
versa. There's an exchange. There's
communication going on at a non-verbal
level.
And it's very intense.
I'm feeling combination a conf you know
a
at the one time a rushing sense of
grief that she's feeling at the same
time the hope of the message she's
conveying that in the end it will all
come out fine but there's this
tremendous pain and suffering she's and
she she said at one like said I knew the
message clearly got the message write a
letter to the pope no instructions what
to write or what you're seeing what
seeing me but no other specific
instructions what to say or why no
explanation but write a letter to the
pope
then I was looking for some form of uh
greater understanding I'd say and she
sensed that and uh I think she sensed I
was like still shocked in shock right
but I went into a uh a state of uh
ecstasy
so I've never had
Only time in my life, 71 years old, that
I was in a state of ecstasy.
I could I remember my teeth chattering.
I remember that. I remember the sound of
them going and my head going back like
it was like and it was incredible. It
was like an I mean I incredible orgasm
of like beyond that without a real
orgasm obviously, but it was like more
than it was it was just an incredible
feeling. uh the bonafites of the moment,
so to speak, were right there. I just
knew this is absolutely what it was. And
then I saw it like more of a if if I'm
so graced to be here in your presence,
you know, I've sent, you know, then
there must be something specific you you
want me to to do other than the letter
to the pope and sort of thing. And then
little things came out like for example,
a sense of tying together. I there was
no numbers or but I sensed that it was
all related. I just sensed that it was
all related to this plus my encounter I
had had with her in Portugal where I
hadn't met her but I felt her mind and
thoughts. She was explaining when she
told me there deliver the message
write what you see. Um whatever you do
you do in sin that was specific. I wrote
that down after Portugal which was a few
a few years earlier said keep all that
in mind as you go forth on this mission
or you go forth to fulfill God's will
and she made it clear everything is
God's will not her will there was a a
major distinction this was I wasn't
doing anything for her this was all in
accordance with her serving God the same
way she was asking me to or anybody else
now you asked earlier I at this m this
point I had never read anything about
her you know encounters with the Virgin
Mary but I became of course a hobby
student of that as well great detail but
the thing is you mentioned earlier I I I
think she sensed that I was not losing
it but like needed further reassurance
in some way that I could do this cuz the
first thing anybody has is an
expectation of getting any mystical uh
experience that's genuine is well why me
you know there's no reason but the
answer to that is there is no reason.
It's you. I wasn't being singled out cuz
I was noble or worthy or no no no such
reason. When when Paul was on the road
to Damascus and he was struck down by G
the light of Jesus standing over him.
The light the divine light of Jesus
saying Paul why are you persecuting me?
He turns from a person going to kill
members of this Jewish sect to the
leader of that sect because
of the mystical experience with Christ.
Without that, none of that would have
happened. So I, you know, I'm very well
aware of that these aren't only real,
but they're incredible important moments
in human history every time they happen
to anybody to continue to gather them up
and as as you're saying tell relate the
story. So at the very end of the uh
encounter was and you know it's funny
time kind of like I got lost in time. I
don't remember it was just minutes the
whole thing I know that where she said
like encouragement again this was the
important part um don't reach
God lies within you
don't want you have no needs
don't strive there is no purpose
and it was incredibly important
guidance because it reminded me of
things I thought I knew but then I got
you get lost right particularly the one
of don't reach
don't go out and try you know it's all
there it's all inside you in the end and
even the experiences going on the
mountain with the monks and going back
in time all that was a way of [snorts]
intensifying that it's here
>> and and being confident in that
>> did your life change after that did that
fundamentally Oh yeah, it it was the it
was a culminating moment. It was a
culmination of all the dreams in a way
because in her uh the the images I I
associated with her presence in the
room, there was the idea of war and
conflict and apocalyptic things. I could
sense the wars and things of previous
dreams all being present with her as
well. So it was her great suffering
uh you know particularly of women and
children in war and conflict lives being
lost that kind of level of of of concern
and hope and and need to have people do
things to minimize it or to end it or to
be part of God's will in in in writing
the course of human history.
>> She visited you every seven years three
times. Is that right? So 1991, 1998 and
then
>> 2005.
>> Well then that she didn't visit me in
2005 but it's one of the coincidences
that ties the connections together in
2005. I didn't have an experience with
the Virgin Mary but I found myself
through chief of Europe at CIA.
>> I was back in Paris probably the first
time since seven years maybe. I don't
know. I didn't go there that often but I
I'm back in the same hotel cre which is
two blocks from the one I was in. I
remember thinking this is autumn so
close to where all this happened cuz by
now I'm intensely
a aware and thinking and looking into
what all that was meant for me and what
should I do more from a practical I
didn't need evidence I just needed to
know practically what to do now that I
had had these experiences so on that
particular seven years fulfillment of
things was the night that John Paul II
died
>> and it was the idea that that yeah this
is related to that her the explicit idea
of course I had to write a letter to the
pope and I sent that letter to the
Vatican and and you know I got a
response from the Vatican actually on
>> what was the response
>> well it said his holiness had you know
appreciated the gift and I suppose they
send some of these things out but it
seemed like it was seemed like it had a
personal touch to his
>> what did you what did you say to the
pope
>> well it's I I put the letter in the book
so the the letter I sent to the pope I
put in the book and uh I want I want
everybody to read what I said because
>> go check it out. Did you Did you say
just high level did you say the Virgin
Mary told me to write to you?
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Wow.
>> Yeah. And I put the experience. I put
all the numbers in it. I mean all the
numbers are in the book cuz again the
idea is
>> the numbers from the original download
you got at West Point
>> 747 and all the numbers. I've seen the
numbers. Yeah. So if you read the letter
in two pages, two and a half pages, it's
the whole story in a way. Wow.
>> I met her in Portugal. I met her in
Monos. And it's the same letter um I
shared with the Orthodox church. I
because it's it's not about me.
>> Yeah.
>> I mean, it is my story, but to to the
extent the story serves a purpose or is
relevant some.
>> So, you were just relaying your
experience mostly to the Vatican. So,
it's 2005, Pope John Paul II dies.
You're in Paris that night ironically at
the same spot that it's almost this like
niche eternal recurrence or something.
Well, that satisfies your sevens. You
know, we have three sevens here.
>> Three sevens. Exactly. So, that seems
significant maybe for the numerology
aspect, but so you're there, you're in
Paris,
>> and then what happens
>> as far as your just your third
experience with the Virgin Mary?
>> Well, the the third experience preceded
the first Paris. It was the one in
Portugal.
>> Okay.
>> Uh in uh [sighs and gasps] No, wait a
minute. No. Gosh, I'm losing the date on
that. But it it yeah it was before the
Virgin Mary appearance because it was in
in Portugal where I was uh encountered
her in in I already told you what that
conversation was all about and what she
relayed more guidance at that meeting.
So there again it was idea of a presence
not seeing anything but I realized this
presence is continuing and it's I'm
getting more if you will aware of what I
should and shouldn't be doing related to
to all this. And in between all this,
you know, there's
>> But in Paris, you see her again.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> And what's what's that experience like?
>> Well, there's only the only one time
I've saw seen the Virgin Mary was in
1998 in Paris.
>> Yep. But in in 2005, you see her again.
>> No.
>> Oh, you don't see her again. Okay. Got
it. Got it.
>> No. As I've got down there, there were
there were only one
>> only one. It's it it tied everything up
where she appeared in a way that you
know you examine phenomena right and I
like to pres present this in various
ways. one is as phenomena
uh I have to know for my own
satisfaction I want to know I should say
I'm not supposed to want but I do want
to know the explanation of the um you
know uh physiology or the the the the
reality aspect of what was she where did
she come from she there's a there has to
be somewhere she came and went when she
retreated back into the cuz she at at
the end she went back into the top
corner of the wall and uh and she was
gone.
>> So that's a that's an event that's a
real thing. So I I have talked we talked
some about it, Jesse, because you do a
lot of inquiring research into these
subjects. There's a there's an
explanation for it in based in physics
>> just like there has to be an explanation
of what heaven and hell are in physics.
>> Do you have a best explanation in
physics for kind of metaphysical or
spiritual? Well, I have one that I I
have one that I favor and I I'm I'm
hesitant to share it, but I want to give
a direct answer to a direct question
because I don't know. I mean, I don't
know. But but to me, the the most
sensible explanation is that things we
describe as divine or part of uh a
permanent uh things that aren't prone to
being affected by time anymore. Meaning,
they're not in the physical universe in
motion because time is a function of of
u motion and uh ma matter, right? mass
and motion. So without those things, if
you had a universe at rest,
then what we call heaven and hell, God
presides over everything including our
universe, including where angels might
come to give us messages or how prophets
get their insights because it doesn't
come from our universe. It doesn't come
from the big bang universe. It can't
come. The idea I think if the great
thinkers like Thomas Aquinus and you
pick your favorite pondering the
theological basis of God even someone
like Leenets a mathematician who said
God has to create the best of all
possible worlds which is one I love
because I think he's absolutely right
but that's because God isn't in our
world God to be perfect to be great to
be everything we ascribe including
indivisible
>> so massive we can't even contemplate it
>> it can't be rooted in the big bang
universe emotion because everything in
our universe is relative.
>> So it's like there's an alternative
universe that's at rest that's more
>> or or a universe that I don't know how
to use the word alternative. Well, that
perfectly valid.
>> I'd say a universe that lies beyond or
above or in which our universe is just a
small part. And you're saying the big
bang universe because that is the
proverbial kind of you know first prime
mover event that scientists now herald
as you know definitely true that then
kind of deterministically kind of you
know you get this ent entropy from there
and then you end up with this you know
what a lot of scientists would now say
this happy accident of you know our
earth and the world and the universe as
it is and you're saying that there is
something
next to that or outside of that.
>> Well, the only explanation I can come up
with, which is, you know, I'm
embarrassed almost to say these profound
things when there are so many scientists
and physicists, philosophers, but I
mean, the simplest way I think of it, it
came to me kind of as an insight of as a
possibility was was sitting in my porch
with screens all around my porch and
picturing the big bang for the first
time in my I'm God. I'm sitting in my
chair
and picturing the big bang as being a
ripple in that spaceime in that room in
the corner of the room. Just a little
ripple. There's starts with a little
tear
>> in the corner
>> and just go spans out
>> and you're God. You're looking over
that. But it's just to you it's just a
ripple.
>> Everything we take as the ultimate
reality and the the the uh accumulation
of all things is just possibly a a very
small sideshow occurring in a big room.
is the implication of the title of your
book, a state of mind that your mind can
get to this universe at rest, this
timeless universe.
>> It's so the the clues because it's not
completely just a stab in the in the
dark of of the big room. As much as to
say you have to have an explanation of
how people can reliably, this doesn't
just happen to a few people. This has
happened throughout his human history.
being able to see into the future and
and and sometimes claim to go into the
past. So there must be a way of if you
will overcoming time
>> which means time can't be an absolute in
our equation. And you have people like
Einstein saying time is but an illusion
which Harry Hiller said to me in my book
when I went to Monathos and sure enough
he proved it was an illusion because I
kept going back in time. So in a way the
dream was a manifestation of a very
basic potential truth
which is time is just a an aspect of
spaceime that we create in the big bang
because we're all in motion. There's
nothing not in motion.
>> But who is to say that there's not a
universe at rest
>> because I don't know how you can have
something called everlasting life if
Christ went somewhere. He didn't go
somewhere in a big bang after
crucifixion and resurrection. He didn't
stay in our earthly realm even if we
expend extend that meaning to the whole
universe as we understand the universe.
You know it it stands to reason then
that every species intelligent species
in the universe would be beholden to
this rule not just humans.
>> Yeah. I you know question a lot of
people who are more fundamentalist in
their beliefs on these things. if Christ
is, you know, immortal, like where is he
now? Like he should be on Earth.
>> And they often talk about like an
ascension body, you know, that they're
they exist in maybe the ascension body
is where this other sort of universe
lies or something. I don't know. I'm
speculating.
>> I mean, I I think you got another clue
that's a really fascinating one, and I
don't want to overstate any of these,
but they're just things that come to
mind. The transfiguration of Christ,
which for many people, they don't they
don't know what that is. There was a
period after crucifixion where he
appeared to the disciples in a form
where he wasn't yet in heaven or wasn't
at earth and that's where he had the
famous doubting Thomas putting Jesus
saying if you doubt that it's me cuz
you're you're not supposed to be here
put your finger in my wounds and and it
is and he's called doubting Thomas but
if you look at that beyond as a
religious kind of story you know it has
to be true again if they witness Christ
in some form Then what is that? How
would you explain that in physics?
>> I I think you can I think it's an it's a
deliberate staging of before reaching
the next period. I absolutely believe as
a result of my religious experiences and
growth and that we don't die when we
die. We just go past we better word
would be a passage. There's a passage
from this state. Yeah,
>> I think if you believe truly believe in
Christ and really you have to believe
that and I always say it doesn't matter
how often you go to church and how much
you donate to this or that. What matters
is do you really believe the heart and
soul of what the faith is about which is
there's life after death. So once you
posit there is life after death
you're not really trying to determine
like what is that like Dante's stages of
hell which is kind of like fun to think
about people deserve the different
levels of hell that kind of explains why
you're a little sinner you go here
you're a big sinner you go down here but
it's all silly right it's silly
>> the idea of hell as a place is silly
>> now the idea of hell as being the
absence of god from god being separated
from god Ah, now we're getting somewhere
because God doesn't exist in the big
bang world. God exists beyond it. So the
closer you get beyond the big bang world
to to a world not in motion. So maybe
when we die we we pass to a world at
rest. We we pass to a world where time
no longer exists
>> which then creates
consequences of what you've done in your
life because you're suddenly aware of
them. If you're we can't even accurately
go back and recreate any moment of our
time much less replicate it again is it
happens we have memories of it
>> and all our memories are fading all of
them
>> but there is a place where all the
memories are the events themselves
>> if that makes sense
>> all the events are occurring always as
they occurred in what we would describe
as this year this place this time
because in that world none of the time
exists. M
>> that's all it's a very simple concept
>> and all it presupposes is that like
physicists have told me where I've we've
discussed this and I've learned a lot
from good physicists um especially young
ones I find they were really into this
subject like you are um they're really
interested in in constructing ways of
thinking of metaphysics uh in ways that
aren't just traditional physics where if
you can't prove it experimentally forget
it.
>> Yeah.
>> No, of course not.
>> Yeah. That's that can't be true. Like if
something is phenomenologically real or
experientially real, it's not fake
because you can't experimentally
reproduce it in a lab. Like that's an
absolutely ridiculous thing to say. That
is the epitome of the kind of the hubris
of enlightenment. But time in physics is
also extremely weird. You know, um
general relativity is a theory of
gravity. But even in general relativity,
you have time dilation. you know, you
have, you know, time moves based on, you
know, the speed of the observer, which
is sort of really weird.
>> Gravity, you know, itself is really
weird, you know, on a macroscopic scale.
Um, you know, uh uh you basically are
justifying the weakness of gravity with
with dark matter, which seems like this
undetectable mathematical placeholder
>> and time and gravity are kind of super
linked. you know, the the more you you
you get closer to kind of a dense
gravitational source like a black hole,
time seems to slow. And so, you know, if
gravity is is kind of weird, you know,
and then gravity is obviously weird on
a, you know, it's irreconcilable with
the other forces on a quantum level,
then time is also on a quantum level.
It's taken as this sort of classical
class axiom in something like
Schroinger's equation. So, it's just
time seems like this like not super well
understood thing like at most maybe you
can
Think of it visav the movement of bodies
on a macroscopic scale and on a
microscopic scale maybe the oscillations
of an electromagnetic wave or something
>> right
>> but it's it's you know it's the most
commonly used noun in the English
language but it always has to be defined
with respect to other things
>> right
>> and so it seems a little bit like the
eye seeing the eye or like that David
Foster Wallace you know um Kenyon um
commencement speech where he's you know
this is water and it's like If you're a
fish talking to another fish and you're
in water, we're all in Zeno's era of
time, you can't really get out of that
sort of epistemological
framework. But simultaneous to that you
have all these interesting thinkers in
in physics like I arenov or Kramer where
there's like a h the the present is a
handshake between the future and the the
past which that's a legitimate
interpretation of kind of quantum
mechanics
>> and um you know you have ideas of
retrocausality and the future sort of
causing the past or the the present
being constricted and the there being
probable futures and probable past
probable past. Schroinger talked about,
you know, if you measure a particle in
its present, you might affect its past.
You know, they're all it's it's just
it's way trippier than sort of meets the
eye. I even think, you know, even
position, momentum, superp
positionality, spooky action at a
distance, which Einstein grappled with
till the end of his life. You have
spooky action over time as well where
you know looks if a double slit
experiment is performed in the future it
looks like the measurement of that
double slit experiment is affecting some
one that's done in the present or the
past which is crazy right
>> and so you know it's almost like quantum
mechanics implies uh you know people say
it implies you know there there there's
an issue with position and momentum
measurements that's Heisenberg's
uncertainty principle but there's also
level of energy and time quantum
indeterminacy as Well, and what if the
Shringer's equation which is more
position and momentum based what if time
superpositionality is causing the
position and momentum superpositionality
and just like you know you can place
Newton within Einstein but Einstein
better describes Newton than Newton
>> what if you could place Schroinger
within some time agnostic modality
equation that describes Schroinger
better than Schroinger you know we don't
know the answer to these questions
No. And and the hard hardest part of
exploring them is separating the
influence of scale
>> from from the actual reality. So because
we are at the scale we are everything we
measure is uh measured proportional to
our scale. So and that's not we can
obviously go beyond visual and we have
lots of ways to measure things other
than our senses but we we can't avoid is
our scale. So if you go up in scale the
cosmic level or down the subatomic
levels you you got the same problem.
Your ability to measure anything gets
less and less and then the worst your
worst ability to measure anything is
when time changes on you. you get into
black hole physics or whatever where
suddenly you realize
>> mass you know go it goes infinite and
and time stops
>> but that's a clue it's another clue the
the idea again of time being a variable
that we take is
in a way an absolute reality even though
it changes but the existence of time I'm
talking about isn't necessarily real
it's real for us in the big bang world
but if you if you stop everything which
we don't contemplate because we can't we
can't at least in science contemplate a
world at rest.
>> So why don't we we'll we'll kind of you
know take a page from the book so to
speak and um can weave in and out of
some of these more mystical experiences
and your more prosaic life. What were
some of your early missions? So I would
say in the early years uh it there was
no mission there other than basic
conclusions I drew like okay I'm drawn
to Russia because it's it's the action.
It's it's there's no better place to be
in the CIA than the belly of the beast.
So, I had those kinds of connotations
early on, but nothing nothing
explicitly, you know, linked to religion
or or faith or apocalypse or nuclear
weapons or any of that. It was very just
a kind of basic career until the things
I described that happened later.
>> Yeah. And so, and you talk you have a
lot of story. I mean, you you were
almost overrun, right, uh, in the Yelten
coup. So, there's this attempted coup
against Boris Yelton. 93. Correct.
>> 1993. And
>> I came back and Yeah.
>> You're the Moscow station chief for the
CIA and it just seems like you're kind
of, you know, in this very dire
situation. They end up having they end
up helping you, right? Is that is that
right?
>> That's correct. I mean, it's one of
those things where there the idea of a a
leaison rel we call leison relationship
when when we cooperate with other
countries intelligence.
On the face of it, there was nothing
really to cooperate between the CIA and
the KGB. You read all the story. They're
all true. As we say, there's a lot of
blood in the water. Uh we kill, you
know, not kill, but their agents, our
agents end up dead, killed, executed,
sometimes imprisoned. Uh so it's a very
ugly history, and we weren't going to be
friends. But the idea was when I laid
out the first CIA directors that ever
went to Moscow for to visit the or even
visit Moscow, much less deal with the
Russians as partners, it was Bob Gates
was the first when he was CIA director.
And I'll never forget that trip in 19 se
fall of 1992. He came there and laid the
groundwork by giving a great toast.
>> We had a dinner. Russians love toast.
They love dinners.
>> And you got to win. You got to you got
to be good at the whole heart of
toasting. And so I learned a lot about
that. But his essentially was around the
theme of we're not friends. We're not
here because we're ever going to love
each other and be be real partners.
We're here because our countries demand
that we put aside some of our
differences and cooperate in meaningful
ways for the security of our countries.
>> That was when Yeltson had just emerged.
>> There was the hope then, right?
>> But it was a realism attach he attached
to it that was very important needed
>> to make it real cuz if otherwise you
would have, you know, been pretending
and playing games, which there's no
point to play games if you're arch
enemies. You just do what you need to
do. So a year later it all culminated in
this um coup in Moscow when hardliners
tried to overthrow Yeltson. But the one
thing it showed is that at a time of
extreme need
we could work with the Russians because
we had a common interest to keep Yeltson
in power.
>> Russian intelligence decided they
weren't ready to overthrow Yeltson
through force and violence. They ended
up doing that. This is 938. It was eight
years later, of course, when Vladimir
Putin came to power legally, the right
way, if you want to call it that. And
the Russians don't like coups and
violence anymore than we would like in
our own country.
>> So, we worked together and it was
astonishing. I didn't know when I first
called Russian intelligence chief and
said, "Hey, we need help. We need you to
protect us. It looks like we're going to
be taken hostage." when I was leading a
detachment of people outside the embassy
and coming under fire from couplers
um snipers and things I called them for
help and I didn't expect any help fact
it was the ambassador at the time
ambassador Tom Pickering he's the one
who I called him in desperation say
there's no way you can help us is there
because I because the embassy all
everybody in the embassy was underground
in the in the embassy compound except
for us we're out doing reporting and
things like that to tell Washington what
was going on otherwise they wouldn't
have known anything going on at the
time. All the news networks had shut
down and
>> and you end up like holed up in an
abandoned building or something.
>> Well, we we hold up everything was
abandoned but we were in the
ambassador's residence. Okay.
>> Which we opened up and used just as a
command post which I think that started
as five of us.
>> I think we ended up with seven or eight
long. I put the whole like all the
details in in that. I was a little
surprised that again it was nice to see
they they had no problem with telling
that story because I think it's
important I the the purpose of the story
and the purpose of me describing it is
that you know intelligence is almost
always unexpected
>> and it's its greatest value is proven in
the most difficult times pro and con and
you you can't
fear or avoid
the difficult circumstance. you have to
kind of run into them and embrace the
the the the difficulties. So they they
ended up sending a a team to protect us
from being taken hostage. And the only
rules we had I'll never forget the phone
call from the director. He said, "Okay,
Ralph, there's very extraordinary
circumstances. We're going to send you a
team of heavily armed guys to try to
keep you from getting captured, but
here's the deal. One is do not coingle.
Our guys and your guys are separate.
we'll do our work outside your perimeter
or whatever. So, don't mix. And he goes,
"If you are stormed or they take get in
a firefight or whatever happens, die in
your separate foxholes."
And he didn't have to explain why
>> he because that day turned out in
Russian history
didn't want to leave any evidence of who
had worked with whom along the way
[clears throat]
>> because it was in doubt. I I the one
thing I learned personally in a way that
helped me even with the spiritual stuff
later mystical experiences is history is
not inevitable. History isn't history
comes together because of the decisions
people make.
>> And you when you're experiencing it live
like in a war or in a coup or in a
change of government, you realize it
could go that way if these things are
done and goes that way if another thing
is done.
>> You've been in the room with Vladimir
Putin. What's your impression of him?
>> Well, it wasn't as extensive as so many
of the people, you know, obviously in
the US government who have had a a lot
of interaction with him. So, I don't
want to put it on I just happen to have
a fairly unique one-time thing where uh
we met in his first foreign trip. I was
in Norway. Uh I'm Norwegian American as
I said, so it was a great honor for me
to go back to Norway. And I happened to
be there. Again, one of these things I
thank God a little bit for the privilege
of to be there during the last meeting
of what was called the Oslo peace accord
process was started in Oslo, Norway
>> and now was culminating. So this was uh
in the November 1993
>> 93 no 1998.
>> 1998
>> the last meeting.
>> Oh okay.
And uh the last meeting was one amazing
no I had no role of any appreciable
nothing. I was there as as literally a
appreciation gift. Some I knew the prime
minister and other people in the
Norwegian government. They said invite
invite me and and my wife to the to the
dinner. But at the dinner was President
Clinton who came of course um Vladimir
Putin's first foreign trip
as prime minister and then um of course
the main ones Yaser Arafat and Ahoud
Barack who was the prime minister of of
Israel at the time. Now I had never met
Arafat. Ahoud Barack. I had met Clinton
just you know kind of like
formalistically uh but and Putin and and
I got to see them all in this kind of as
an observer vantage point where if
anything anybody would say who's this
guy [laughter] because everybody there
was more important than me literally
everybody at the at the dinner. But that
was great. I there was no pressure. I
could literally just observe uh Putin
and others. And it was just amazing.
There was a moment when after dinner
when everybody got up and mingled, went
to the king's library to visit the
castle in his library to have cognac and
chocolates and everybody's walking there
and I'm going to catch everything on the
way and I see Clinton literally grab
Arafat
>> in in the middle of the room and Clinton
was whatever one thinks of him
politically, that's not what I'm talking
about here. He had a presence, right?
>> Oh, well, everybody says that. Everybody
says the most charismatic guy.
>> He just had a natural charisma. He
didn't have to do anything. He just
stands there. Right. Sure.
>> So he grabs Arafad who also in his weird
way had a charisma too, a presence,
right? Because he the iconic head wrap
and etc.
>> And he says to Arafat, "Take the deal,
Yaser. Take the deal. It's your last
best chance for peace." And I remember
listening to that think, "Wow, that's so
like important."
>> What I just heard, I thought it's very
important.
>> Yeah.
>> And I just felt so depressed. is I knew
it was no no inst no you know
foreshadowing or future I just like
instinctively my gut was oh this is not
going to turn out well
>> and of course it's turned out terribly
>> well it's turned out terribly I mean
partially Yaser Arafat would speak out
of both sides of his mouth and he would
speak to his own population say certain
things and then speak to the west and
say other things but also itak rabbin
also uh you know taken out by by his own
you know people and kared you know Jews
Jew who were just really extremists and
wanted, you know, to seed nothing at all
costs. And, you know, I think in in many
ways that whole the Middle East, you
know, uh, conundrum quagmire has been
has been so stuck for so long. And maybe
we, you know, maybe we've made a little
bit of progress in the last year, but
it's been so so stuck uh, because of
kind of extremists on on both sides and
because in many ways the incentives of
the leaders
>> are to like actually maintain the
conflict.
>> Yeah. So unfortunate.
>> It is. It is.
>> It's a factory of Yeah.
>> Well, my my my But then watching Putin,
just to point of your your question was
I already had the impression that he
would be more consequential than I
thought he might at the time
>> by any standard of reasoning or what I
knew about him. I
>> But I just had he had a presence too. He
was boring like gray man on the corner.
But that in itself impressed me because
he wasn't trying to fit in. He wasn't
trying to like speak aloudly to be
heard. He he he was way too self
assured, you know, for for that kind of
a reaction to the situation. And I
respected that. I thought, okay, this
guy could end up being way more of his
own man than we we think he might be
going into that time period. One last
thing on on the because it's it's ties
to Russia and the Middle East. again 5
years earlier 1993 again after the coup
and all that I was meeting with the
Russians you primikov is his name he was
the head of Russian intelligence I got
to know him very very well he was we
meet almost every week and had all kinds
of discussions about everything talked
almost like we are Jesse about all kinds
of big subjects and he was a guy I felt
very comfortable and I thought he was a
brilliant brilliant man actually and he
probably would have been a prime
minister before instead of Putin in the
mid '9s after Yeltson was left had he
not passed away from health problems and
old age etc. But at the time he was
always musing with me about what what
can we do to be serious people? There's
a Russian expression chilc.
>> It's the most important thing to
Russian. They can love you or hate you,
but you got to be a serious niche. A
serious person.
>> Serious professional. Serious about what
you do.
>> Don't give me
>> And he says, you know, we got to do
something, but I can think of one thing
that would be unbelievable if we could
find a way to do it. I said, what's
that? He said, "Well, you have your
means, meaning CIA. We have our means,
meaning the SVR, which is the foreign
intelligence component of Russian
intelligence,
and we have them in the Middle East. So,
let's apply all our efforts in the
Middle East where we really need
something happen to break this
long-standing stalemate problem.
>> Our goal will be to keep Arafat alive.
Your goal will be to keep Rabin alive.
And I thought it was genius.
>> Of course, I sent it in. Everybody
thought I was insane. [laughter]
>> And I never got a good explanation as to
why it really wasn't even considered.
>> Maybe you just offered it.
>> Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] Right.
>> Yeah. It's tough. I mean I mean we've
talked about this you know too in our
last interview you know where you know
people always talk about a deep state
and you know it's I think clearly there
is no sort of cabal in a back room
smoking cigars or something but there
are there is I don't think it's
conspiracy to say that there are all
sorts of misaligned incentives when it
comes to big bureaucracies and that's
any institution and so yeah no just
going back to like you know why would
somebody say senselessly say no to a
thing like that or you know I I'm
sympathetic to a lot of the John
Mirshimer arguments as well that like
you know we've totally reneged on Putin
a million different times and you know
we've we've encroached a lot on on you
know their their territory and you know
not not to at all you know uh uh
apologize for a lot of his wrongdoings
which are very real but um yeah there's
there the the incentives are often wrong
in these organizations. [laughter] Yeah.
>> Well, when you talk about people like
Mirheimer or others who try to express a
different way of thinking of our
policies and their impact, I mean,
there's there's utility in those points
of views. I don't agree with him on a
lot of things, but I think he should be
saying some of the things he's saying,
and it's helpful. the biggest thing we
habitually
do wrong in terms of in follow through
on policy. Some of our policy ideas
aren't so bad, but it's usually the the
huge flaws in the implementation usually
and and it's not so much the underlining
motives that line up with as much as
people think they do with sort of deep
state agendas. It's just either a
mixture of incompetence or I'd say more
the idea that we we mirror image too
much. So our biggest problem in
understanding for example the Russians
now what I'm saying is not acceptable is
it's not accepted um thinking but it's
widely accepted but some people
understand it is our biggest mistake is
not seeing things through their eyes
>> and it doesn't justify what they're
doing or thinking but it's understanding
it
>> and and if you want to know why we are
where we are with the Russians you have
to understand see the world through
their eyes it doesn't mean you accept
that you or more importantly what they
do as a consequence of what they feel
but at least understand why you're there
and don't be surprised about it. Isn't
there a a Kenan quote about
understanding the Russians or something?
It's like once you ascend to the the top
of the mountain, you know, you you end
up equally confused as to the Russian
motiv motivation or something. I'm
totally paraphrasing and botching this,
but there's something like that.
>> I don't remember that, but I I suspect
Yeah,
>> it's like they're always mystical,
confusing. there's no way to ultimately
understand what they're up to or
something which feels somewhat right.
you like you know the the idea of a
polit burrow is like this you know
concealed sealed off hermetically you
know uh enclosed sort of organization
that you know you can never fully sort
of understand and Putin's always keeping
the people around him on his on their
toes and so it's this really hard kind
of hermeneutic game of reading the tea
leaves at all times with you know
>> I think I think you read tea leaves and
see everything as being unscrutable when
you don't have any real depth in either
living in the country or having enough
experience with the people of the
country [clears throat] where you can
understand where they're coming from.
One of the biggest mistakes we make with
Russia or Xi Jinping and China or
anybody for that matter all the leaders
even some of our friend friendly
countries
>> is is uh not understanding that the
country is not the leader.
>> So the thing I'll never do is think of
Russia as Vladimir Putin.
I've read too much many too much Russian
history, philosophy,
uh gotten into Russia. I've known too
many Russians. I lived in Russia for for
enough years where I think of Russia
first is the people, right? And then you
can assess what Putin's doing. And the
most important way you need to assess it
is not what impact it has on the US,
>> but what impact is it what he's doing
having on the Russian people. Now, I
would make an argument that what's
happening now is very damaging to the
future interests of ordinary Russians
the same way I might assess what
different president's impact has on
America. I don't I don't care so much
about how the president's policies
affect the stock market as I do how the
president's policies affect ordinary
Americans.
>> So, I think we have to look at foreign
countries the same way. If you look at
China's meteoric rise in the 20th
century,
you're not compelled to think of China
as an enemy or rival
and everything that's progress in China
is being antithetical to our interests.
Look what they've done for the Chinese
people
>> over in a remarkable period of time. And
that's not all good obviously, but start
from a more solid basis to understand
why the leaders do what they do
>> in their own history, traditions,
culture, environments, and religion. If
you look at the reason I've always said,
and a lot of Russia experts disagree
with me on this, I've always said Russia
can't embrace cannot be a democracy like
the United States.
>> The Yeltson years were a mirage. They
weren't a missed opportunity. M
>> there was never an opportunity for
Russia to go west.
>> Even when famously you know Peter the
Great talked about western orientation
had nothing to do in the context we
would like to ascribe it to like he
wanted to be more connected culturally
etc with the US. Russia is what Russia
is, which is a deeply orthodox,
homogeneous country with a very rich
history and very rich. They're very
smart people. They're very educated
people and they want what they want.
They don't want what we want.
>> Yeah.
>> And I think that's a big mistake of what
we try to impose. Not so much our our
any way of controlling countries, but
our idea of imposing our culture.
>> For sure. Well, they had, you know,
under Gorbachev, you know, last leader
of the USSR that disbanded it. Uh, you
had Glassnost, you had Paristroka, Port
Parisa, and you had, you know, open
minds make open markets or whatever. And
or open markets make open minds, right?
And I think um what a lot of neoliberals
sort of like miscalculated is that you'd
inevitably you'd get this like opening
up of markets and then you know you'd
end up with all of the amazing things
about liberal democracy in the west you
know in both China and Russia and that's
just not happened at all.
>> And like it took us a long time to I
think update on that. Yeah, [laughter]
you know, you're right. There's this
neoconservative sort of hubris of like,
you know, this would just happen on its
own
>> and then that's just not and you also
have things like, you know, with Putin,
I think there's this guy Vladislav Cirv
who I think of course, you know, is this
adviser
>> who wrote this book almost zero and it's
like all about like performance art and
how that has to play into like your, you
know, your how you do politics. And so
it's I just find it so fascinating, you
know, that whole that whole world it's
just so different or even like I think
this is too att
I I don't think he's I don't think he's
that close with Putin actually. Like I
think people think he is,
>> but I mean
>> it's Putin is I mean that whole world is
definitely trippier than we than we, you
know, real. Like some of these guys are
like they're more esoteric than you know
we might realize and so it's like how
how do you really understand how they
make decisions at all.
>> Right. Right. [laughter] Right. Right.
>> Yeah. No, it's it's it's I think it's a
little like our previous discussions on
faith and mysticism and analyzing other
countries and understanding what more
importantly than analyzing it is
understanding what's happening.
>> Yeah.
>> Uh what what track are they on? What
road are they on? Especially in a world
where our notions of individual identity
are changing through of course social
media and the internet. Our ideas of
technology are you it's blowing up
around us in ways we don't really
understand. Now that's affecting all of
us. The cultural reaction to it is
different everywhere. The thing it's
testing most.
>> Yeah.
>> In my view is the idea of individuality
and identity. So in a country like ours
which started at at the point of our
creation as a nation the idea of very
unique historically unique completely
unique ideas of individual freedom and
the role of individual liberty identity
in a collective society where the
collective part was put way down. I mean
the idea of a right an intrinsic right
to life liberty and not property like
John wrote Lach wrote in his second
treatis of government but pursuit of
happiness. Yeah. What a weird idea.
Franklin came up with that I understand
when when they were drafting the
declaration of independence. It was a
change made edit to Jefferson's original
that's only something Americans can come
up with.
>> It's a very western concept.
>> It's not even European western. So when
we're decrying and criticizing all the
Europeans for being socialists,
my I would maintain we have no idea what
we're talking about. I've lived in most
of those countries that whatever they
you I call that socialism. I want those
pensions. We make fun of the French
because I got a 4-day work week. Okay.
Well, you know, I I like the idea of
universal healthcare. Okay. You got to
wait. I first thing I always American
will say about talk about Danish
healthcare or Norwegian I you know is
you got to wait in line. Well, you got
some health care,
right? We're striving to try to create
some normaly around the idea that
citizens also have a right to maybe some
form of universal healthcare. We can't
even agree on that really. So that's
there. Then you go further, you go to
the Russians or the Chinese or any
pretty much anywhere in Asia, just the
notion of the individual's place in
society is far more collective.
>> They're part of something. M
>> the idea of the culture of the the
societal framework is that your
individual rights only go so far and
then you're part and most people feel
that and it's not a religious based
thing where they're members of the same
church because particularly in Europe or
Asia there's those organized religions
don't hold as much a whole have much a
hold on people uh as even they might in
the United States today but it's the
idea the society itself was constructed
with this idea of collective
responsibility so when the Russians drew
up their the philosophers, the great
Russian philosophers, I call the
religious philosophers, working with the
political scientist after the breakup of
the Russian Empire, the Zar
which first yielded the Soviet Union and
the bullsheism. They were drawing up a
system of government that would resolve
the question of how can you have a
true democracy that wouldn't be
corrupted by special interests and
foolish leaders who would be not up for
it. You need more of a Plato's republic,
a republic that was based on people
having roles, which we all have
collective responsibilities.
>> And you have distinct classes like
Plato's guardian class
>> that manage the government, etc.
Responsibility is conferred to
individuals within their collective
obligations, not and we really struggle
with that. We've struggled that for
decades, but it's really coming to a
head, I think, in a way where every
country is sorting through that. But the
bias in most country is much more
towards limiting individual freedom
for the collective good.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Does that make sense to you?
>> No, it makes total sense. Well, if you
look at like Marxist dialectical
materialism,
the individual has very little place at
all. It's very, you know, the individual
can go through a meat grinder and as
long as the byproduct is social progress
on the other side, whether it's, you
know, Ma's great leap forward or, you
know, any of the Stalin's initiatives,
you know, to send people to the goolog,
like that's that's okay in their in
their model, right?
>> And so, you know, I think human human
suffering is inevitable in that in that
model. And there are no individual
rights and it's all about this sort of
collective
>> um sense of progress. And I think that
is very alien and foreign to somebody
thinking about western liberal
democracy. I also you brought up Plato.
Plato himself. You could think of him as
you know he's really obviously deep
interesting thinker. I think he had all
these kind of interesting ideas about
onlogical truth and metaphysics you know
which maybe modern scholars would
disagree with me on or something. But um
also if you read the Republic like it's
sort of like this protofascist book.
It's like you're separating the kids
from the adults and like you know you
have this guardian class that's like
pretty hierarchical and stratified and
you know it's it's it's not at all like
a nonviolent you know like egalitarian
like you know book at all but um 40 was
one of the numbers that you got in your
download as well
>> and something very interesting happened
to you at the age of 40 another sort of
metaphysical experience. Do you want to
talk about what happened to you on on
the train? Yeah. So, um I've been this
is between some of the Virgin Mary
things and of course many years after
the introduction to not only mystical
experiences but what they might mean in
terms of my work, my my role in life and
trying to reconcile the sacred. And so I
was just on a normal,
I'd say everyday espionage travel trip
in in Europe from Zurich to Vienna. And
on the night train and I'm sitting on
the train. I I carried my Bible with me
uh which was engraved in glossy my my
name full name on the cover. We all were
got this Bible when we were in our first
year at West Point and I had kept it
over the years. But I have a I have a
superstition. and I have to carry it
with me everywhere I travel. So, I stick
it in my box. Well, then I have to have
a cover story for because many of the
times I traveled over the years, I'm an
alias, you know, alias person. I've got
a cover story. I've got even phony
passports and things u for my that the
agency provided, right? So, I may have
to explain who this Ralph Mo Lararsson
friend of mine. It's it's almost a
little bit like the Odius Maxima story.
you know, I have to come up with a
reason why I'd have this guy's Bible
with me. So, I opened the Bible and I
had a pencil
there that I just used to mark, you
know, something. And and I just usually
just pick out something random read most
times 10 15 minutes. I wasn't, you know,
I wasn't someone who spent pouring. I
don't pour over biblical texts or Bibles
or things and never did then and now.
Plus, I'm very distracted by my nation.
I'm going to Vienna exchange documents
and and going on the the next day. And
so I I look up at the clock. There are
very few people on this particular train
in my car. Uh so I'm not paying
attention to them. And I look up at the
clock that's in center Swiss train,
right? Everything's clockwork. And I
look at the clock and the the the the
hands, the second hand is starting to
like get heavy. It's like and I'm
feeling like a weight. My body is
feeling heavier and heavier. Uh I feel
like something's like overwhelming me
almost like I'm h experiencing some sort
of thing. But I it's like space and time
are slowing down around me. And I I
remember thinking that even but I didn't
say wow this is very strange. Is it like
uh [sighs and gasps] having an epileptic
fit or something? I mean, I was really
kind of worried for a minute and then,
you know, as it slowed down, my pencil I
was holding, I dropped it and it just
crashed onto the Bible. Like, it
then I just And then it was okay. I had
always said I was aware of God's
presence, but I didn't really know what
not in this way. God was like there
didn't see anything, you know, like I
said, it's not a visual thing. I just
was aware God was that close.
>> Do you get a message?
>> Well, it was uh Yes. And and but the the
thing about the presence that time that
was different from just being aware
is it was scary. It it was really scary
because it was like the almighty creator
who's also personal. I mean great minds
like Thomas Jefferson could never
reconcile that. He had to be one or the
other. You know, I wasn't going to
reconcile it on the train. But it was
the idea that uh it was not good to be
in God's presence. That that was my my
reaction to the intrusion was whoa
>> he can I already knew he could hear
understand interpret everything I'm
thinking or will do or might do because
he's way ahead of me you know but this
was kind of different right so then I
did hear it was a very definite short
this was all very short
>> but the started with I am have the verb
was interesting I did I've never known
it was one church
>> one church. So I had grained that in my
mind. Do not criticize
my church.
The old and the new are one.
Just old and new. I interpreted that to
be testament, but I was old and the new
are one. Swallow them whole
and finally read it as a child.
So, I know that's exactly what it was
because I wrote it down exactly like
that. I still have that original note
somewhere exact that way because I said
that's it and that was it.
>> What does that mean to you?
>> Well, it's pretty I think it's pretty
obvious. I I didn't think it was obvious
and and it really did has taken years to
just kind of like in a way it's my
Sunday school in in a way because I
never left as a child because I'd
learned more from this what I think it
is. But the one church means you know
don't think of a church as the various
churches Protestant Catholic even
Buddhist
my church is the church of believers
whatever they call themselves even
people consider themselves atheist or
agnostic I mean I labels are labels even
what you label yourself what does God
see God sees way beyond that so that's
how I interpret that
>> do not criticize my church is make a
distinction between criticizing the sins
or the crime
of organized religion, which we have
every right to do, from dating from the
Inquisition to the Crusades to anything
you want to take your hand on. And you
can get so obsessed by it. I know so
many people do that you're incapable of
loving God anymore, being being part of
this community of believers because you
associate everything with the fallen
fallen angel, right? And then the really
cool ones for me because I I immediately
reread the whole Bible cover to cover
after I heard about the old and the new
are one. The inspiration that gave me
was to for the first time in my life. I
was 40 years old on the train was to go
reread the Bible from cover to cover
just as a a history.
No longer, you know, is Jonah's whale
really a whale? Is it a metaphor? You
know, uh Red Sea Partying. No, just read
the damn thing. but read it as a child,
meaning have that same receptivity to
me. I've had the most my own grandkids,
like I said, I got nine of them, but
they're all have asked me the hardest
questions on religion because they just
ask the most important obvious ones.
Where's God? Why did Jesus die for our
sins? My daughter said that that mean
when she was first time she went to the
church of the holy sepel in Jerusalem
and watched Jesus's cross and she was
just standing there for a long time. and
she was like 9 years old. I said,
"Honey, what are you thinking?" She
says, "Why did Jesus have to die for us?
That's a kid reaction." But that you
need to re you kind of like recharge
completely on the Bible that way to
think of it in that kind of we're given
this
document is what it is. There's nothing
holy about the thing itself and there
are things in there undoubtedly that are
wrong. And it's a language. As soon as
you got a language, you get
misinterpretations, reinterpretations,
everything else. But don't think about
all that.
>> It's like a lot of the other things
we've talked about, Jesse.
>> Don't overanalyze it. Just let it go and
think, read it. And so I I I did.
>> And do you think it's a coincidence that
this happened at the age of 40 and that
you received 40 in your dream and that,
you know, it was
>> No.
>> 40 days of Jesus?
>> No, I don't I don't think it is. I don't
think it's a coincidence.
>> And 40 days in the desert or 40 years in
the desert for the Israelites as well.
There's almost 40 years of being away
from God before you experience a
communion with God. And um in in your
case, 40 years of maybe more nihilistic,
less believing youth or something. And
then you you experience this gnostic
direct connection or something,
>> right? That's a good explanation. I
can't I can't say it's definitive, but I
mean I I love your fascination with
numbers. But I think the really
interesting thing you do is not just my
numbers but the idea of tying numbers
into
a deeper understanding of reality itself
and how that can help us tie together
disperate kind of fields that we we
think of as separate. One of the
problems we have as human beings is when
you get too deep into the specialization
of of uh different you know faculties uh
you tend to think of them all as
standing alone and needing to justify
themselves.
>> So the the number of people I've run
into who can speak across
various disciplines in that way to tie
them together in a meaningful way that's
pretty unusual itself. M you also you
have another dream final dream we'll
talk about but you have a dream about
the order of the broken cross which is
this apocalyptic cult in Jerusalem and
you have to sort of fly in there behind
enemy lines be a CIA case officer and
recruit some spy and then you you kind
of infiltrate this order and
systematically you know figure out
what's going on with them and then you
you give their information coordinates
or something to the to the west and then
they end up getting getting bombed and
they you know the the apocalypse is sort
of saved or whatever. Is that symbolic
like
>> now after having led a a long life of
trying to you know being
anti-poliferation of WMDs and you know
going after people like Zarqawi and
stuff. So, do do you think that in some
ways you are like this like almost like
biblical prophet-like character who is
your like your mandate or your mission
in life is to save off the apocalypse
and that the instantiation of the
apocalypse in the modern day is in fact
just the proliferation of biological
weapons and and you know WMDs and that
sort of thing. And that that that that's
your kind of divine purpose if you will.
Yeah, I think I can say this in a way
that doesn't sound too grandiose, but
certainly not a personal mission that I
feel I'm on that if I don't do this
somehow we fail as a species or but I'm
very I'm just very aware that all the
work I've done particularly in nuclear
and proliferation. I've gotten into
trying to stop networks from trafficking
and nuclear materials and doing which by
the way a lot of people do and that's a
lot of my soloulless or or I take
comfort in. In fact, there are a lot of
really great people working on this with
or without a sense of divine purpose. I
mean, and I never expressed or carried
into my my work the divine notion of
purpose that I feel because I do keep
that separated. I'm a very strong
believer in separation of church and
state and not just as a way we think of
ourselves as as a country and a society,
but as a principle of of keeping that
separate. I have to unite them in my
mind though. I have to to reconcile them
when there's conflict.
>> Uh I learned at West Point duty honor
country uh which is a very highminded
principle and difficult to I say it's
the greatest thing West Point gave me
was a sense of principle of having honor
doing your duty and doing it with
integrity and and understanding country
not being the president but country
being the people and our history and
what we represent. So I that's almost
religious, right, to do it right. And so
there's not that big of a gap. But when
it comes to the apocalypse and and those
ideas, yeah, I'm very aware of I became
a very aware of it. I w I was I didn't
start aware of it except through my
dreams. Typically, all my dreams and the
sequence of things I've described here
today, Jesse, are are are ways of saying
I I was conditioned, preconditioned
uh prepared for both my work and my my
my spiritual growth and growth in faith.
The same way they were assets to me to
have some ideas what this was all about.
>> And I had to connect it still. And I was
sometimes reluctant to do that. It took
me a long time to write the the letter
to the pope uh that Mary told Virgin
Mary told me to write and it should have
done it the next day.
>> And there's a whole story there that I
think could guide a lot of people. We're
always reluctant maybe to do the things
we know we should do.
>> I'm no different.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, I'm I'm certainly no warrior,
you know, that's out in the lead of
everybody in stopping the world from
being destroyed by nuclear weapons and
proliferation, but I'm one of I'm there.
And unfortunately there are a lot of
people like me and I think people should
take great comfort that uh I have found
that most people in public service which
is a counterintuitive conclusion to come
to in today's world [gasps] uh are are
amazing people
and and do great things and the best
people and including a lot of the
scientists in the department of energy
and our nuclear labs things like that
could get a lot more money not working
for the government or working on the
outside. So for them it's like for me it
was never about money
>> or fame or recognition reward.
>> And you mentioned the department of
energy. What was your exact title there?
>> I was the director of intelligence and
counter intelligence at the department
of energy. and you gave me this uh what
is it? Department of energy uh office of
intelligence and counter intelligence
and it says we keep the real secrets and
it's a little [laughter] a little gray
alien. Um, now you know, as you know,
and we've spoken about this, you know,
I've run into all these connections
between UFOs and and and and uh and and
aliens and or I don't know if they're
aliens, but some sort of like non-human
presence and the DOE. And um you you
mentioned actually like in your book
that there was some sort of like hazing
ritual brief that you got. Is that
right? Yeah. Was because it's such an
obvious thing to pull a thread on. We
like to do a a thing which I was
introduced to. I didn't create it which
we took a director level. So deputy dire
secretary of energy was involved and
several other bigwigs and me as the
director of intelligence and we take a
newbie. The newbie would be a political
appointee very high level maybe you know
deputy secretary or assistant secretary
or some level who had just signed up and
gotten their clearances and were taking
their jobs. And we bring them down to
the bowels of the Department of Energy
where some of the most secretive things
are guarded and you know where those are
kind of everybody whispers when they
come by. And you pull them into this
back room like Maxwell Smart and the old
old TV shows going back through layer
and layers of secrets back into the
vault and you get back into the deepest
vault in the DOE and you bring them. So
the person's back there and they're
already and you have a briefer and you
have about six, seven people, seniors
sitting around a table looking very grim
and the hazing ritual is to explain to
them that we really did have aliens.
We covered aliens, one was injured, one
was not. We got the alien techn space
technology of through through Roswell,
you know, etc. And it was a real thing.
And the the briefing is so good. It's
got all the real DOE, what you call
tickets, you know, we call secret access
program, SAPs they're called, and things
on this to make it seem as real as
possible. And then the briefer goes
through and says a very convincing story
that he's now this person that's come in
is being brought brought into this
ultimate secret access program SAP
ultimate one as a member of a very rare
team that transcends all the different
presidencies and parties because you
can't obviously brief every president
coming in on this. You got to be very
dis discerning and and only bring in
people when they can contribute. And
you're going to be part of the
expedition that goes to we hired you. In
fact, you were hired for this job, but
you're really going to go on this
expedition to this planet. We've they've
helped us develop the technology to
travel to their their location and greet
us when we get there. So, it's got all
this and there's, you know, obviously
there's uh corpses on tables and stuff
to make this all look
>> At what point do you tell them it's a
joke? Well, it somebody cracks up and it
it it somebody can't keep it in any
longer. We betray our own our own
>> and the secretary of that good actor.
>> The secretary of energy is literally in
on this.
>> It's a deputy secretary who's who was in
my case was in the room. Oh my god.
Yeah. So, we raised it to the the
highest level and and what's funny is
there are there are but there was a
serious side to that chapter I put in
the book. I wanted to first take a I
wanted to take a break from some of the
subjects. was a writing a writing
technique involved but part of it also
was to to raise a a bigger point that is
something you are doing a lot of
inquiries into and others I don't know
what secret that I don't know myself I
don't know everything obviously I I used
to know in CIA got so paranoid at one
point got so paranoid I couldn't pass a
polygraph anymore and I they actually
let me publish a chapter on that which I
was really surprised when I was filling
the poly's uh because I knew too much
>> and I was one of the few people that
knew everything about a certain subject
that uh that uh I couldn't even tell the
poligrapher. I didn't trust a
polygrapher, let's put it that way.
>> So, you get to this uh uh wilderness of
mirrors. It's a famous
>> poem, but there's a famous book on it,
too, about espionage where you start
looking at everything everybody and
everybody being knowing something you
don't. And the fact is I used to marvel
at people walking around the halls of
CIA that thought they were so smart on
everything. They used to talk smack and
I they don't know what I know. And then
I thought, well, there's probably stuff
that this guy over there knows that I
don't know. So, you start looking that
way. And DOE is even worse cuz I I tease
my CIA colleagues and friends. I said,
you know, I learned some of this
nation's most important secrets at DOE,
not CIA. DOE does stuff that man.
>> Do you feel like that is true?
>> Oh, I know it's true.
>> You know it's true.
>> I know it's true.
>> What years were you DOE?
>> 2005 to 8.
>> 2005 to 8.
>> And now the point in the story though is
it's a valid thing to wonder does the
president know. This has come up a lot
in UFO history. It started with really
Reagan and Gorbachev musing about um
they need to get together so when the
aliens come the US and a Russian Reagan
mentioned that he was joking but it was
it was on his mind right
>> and then later it was President Clinton
I know was interviewed by somebody and
said do you believe that we have signs
of alien life and we've hiding or
there's a program or something and he
basically said I don't think they tell
me even though I'm the president. He
said that. So it speaks to
both the dangers of secrecy really
because you can't get to that point. You
can't get to the point
both of the that you're don't want to
share secrets because you just they're
secret or you're thinking you got to
withhold this from the president.
I don't think you can go there and have
a small group of people. That's when you
could get into your deep state. If
groups form around subgroups form around
the real government and start to do
things the real government's not aware
of. Well, that's kind of the textbook. I
don't believe in the deep state. I've
been since I was 17 years old and I'm 71
now and I'm still very connected. If
there's a deep state, I want to know
who's in it and where it's operating
from and what's what they're doing
because I have no idea. But when you get
to something like this,
somebody would say, and I told you it
would be me. If I knew that we had we
had uh evidence of extraterrestrial
visits to Earth, I' I'd go to the press.
>> What about if we just had evidence of
some sort of anomalous phenomenon around
our nuclear sites that we
>> Well, see, that's intriguing. You you
you've talked a little with me about
that and that's the first I heard of it.
>> Yeah. Interesting. Because you if you
Google or even chat GPT like
>> uh UFO incursions to around like you
know national labs and nuclear sites
even in that time range 2005 to 2008
>> you'll see stuff you'll see
>> right I believe you
>> FE Warren you'll see Malmstrom base and
you'll see literally people missile
security officers who've signed
affidavit saying that they've seen
incursions and this is there's a great
journalist he's a friend of mine named
Robert Hastings and he's written a book
called UFOs and Nukes and it is
ubiquitous. He has 167, you know, top
TS, you know, secret cleared, you know,
missile security officers, radar
operators, guys on the PRP program,
which I'm sure you're familiar with,
where
>> you have to report if you're on
ibuprofen, you know, cuz you're you're
you're guarding the crown jewel secrets
of American defense.
>> And they just see saucers, tic tacs,
orbs everywhere around our nuclear
sites. And in some cases, these sites
are getting shut down. There's a 2010
case in FE Warren where literally Obama
gets briefed because it was down for,
you know, they say it was 59 minutes,
but I think so this Bob Hastings back
channelneled with this retired missile
technician and he was in touch with some
missile technicians on site and they
attribute it to this cigar-shaped object
that literally, you know, um this this
sort of tic-tac thing
>> that shut down the the base. And so you
did you not hear of anything like that?
>> Well, I can I can say completely openly
and transparently when I was in DOE and
I was the director of intelligence, I
never was briefed on any of that. Uh so
it doesn't mean it didn't occur and I
take very seriously what you said. I I I
think in all likelihood a lot of those
reports are are true or at least being
truthfully reported.
>> Yeah. And uh I don't know if it's
because they're handled somewhere else,
which gets to kind of some of the big
questions, or whether because they're
individual things that never get
resolved, they're they don't go
anywhere, but we can never resolve it
because we don't know what's going on. I
would believe that because I I I guess I
would wor I worry if the head of
intelligence and counter intelligence
for the DOE isn't isn't hearing about
these incursion like that seems so
fundamental to this you know the safety
of and maybe that's why it's impossible
to talk about
>> on the kind of the civil side on the
open side or something because
>> how can you say you know these things
are flying with impunity over our sites
but I don't know I wish there was some
better way to talk about
>> I I think you know I'm Obviously, I'm
not the president or, you know, anybody
who would be in that decision-making,
but I think it would be a a strategic
mistake of historical proportions
>> for a body of government at any given
time to conceal that truth from the
American people thinking we can't handle
it or somehow it compromises. If our
security is being or national security
is being compromised
that way, I can't think of a scenario
where it's better that the people don't
know it than if they do know it because
if there's a problem, we need everyone
to know kind of have some things to go
on. Uh and I I don't believe in like the
mass panic sort of things and stuff like
that. So, it's really a question of
trust and and and when you get to trust,
the government has very little trust.
The whole the whole deep state phenomena
is rooted in mistrust of government,
right? And the assumption that we don't
if we don't know what the government's
going on, we don't believe what we're
being told. There must be something
really bad going on. My experience is
really kind of the polar opposite. It's
been you'd be very disappointed at times
if you knew what we're doing because
it's not always very good and sometimes
it's malicious and bad, just bad, wrong,
illegal.
>> Yeah. because you're again if you're
doing a certain amount of things, some
people are going to do illegal things
like it's just inevitable.
>> I think the the public on this issue is
probably so confused by the government's
messaging because you have people like
James Clapper, Jim Semian, guys who are
like, you know, James Clapper's DNI, all
the Yeah. You know them. Exactly. Yeah.
Jim Semian very high up at the CIA. So,
like, have you if you if you know them,
you know, they're out in this movie Age
of Disclosure saying, you know, this is
non-human intelligence is real. We're in
an arms race with China and Russia on
this stuff. We have a reverse
engineering program with UFOs. Like,
have you called them up? Hey guys, like
what are you talking about? like this
isn't like
>> well it it you no I haven't called him
up specifically but I I certainly and
you've helped not only wet my appetite
but give me some things to work with in
terms of broadening my I'm open-minded
on it. I I truly am. I I'm not
dismissing it at all. I think that's a
big mistake. Uh I was more going to the
the idea of that we got in our hazing
ritual is how do we handle these things
and are are we actually prepared for the
reality that could come to us at any
time? And you talk about your ultimate
we intelligence the thing we worry about
most
>> as intelligence community is the fear of
um surprise strategic surprise 9/11
collapse of the Soviet Union Arab Spring
>> aliens coming to to Perth and we not
being have a clue.
>> I mean I every time there's an
interstellar object coming now and
you've got this astronomer saying it's
nothing and this one saying I don't know
not so fast. I mean, I pay a lot of
attention to that as a just reader
because I think one day one of those
things won't be just a comet.
>> Do do [laughter] you do you do you think
nothing happened at Roswell or do you
have a do you have a take?
>> Well, what we know is happened at
Roswell maybe then or certainly over the
years is I suspect something happened,
right? And and so the the question is is
it something we created and contained
like experimental uh flights or or
development of new aircraft? I mean the
whole history of which is a lot of CIA's
history is on the technical side of the
SR71 and all these different uh aircraft
we secret aircraft we the whole that the
key to that is secret you know to be to
be ahead of everything on that so we can
fly them around the world and not be
seen. So the idea that we're doing
exotic testing and there are accidents
and crashes and things that much I'm I'd
be surprised if there's not more of than
any of us know. But uh and again, I
wouldn't know that at CIA cuz I wasn't
in those, you know, those those those
SAPs or whatever you call them. Uh the
thing that did surprise me at DOE for
all the incredible secrets, many some of
which were nuclear related things, is
just how few of them related to this. So
again, that could suggest two
explanations. One is it's done somewhere
else and even I
>> Yeah. was was hazed by by [laughter]
or or or you know there's less to it for
the more banal reason or I'd call it
that
>> that no one's pulling it together. You
know, you talk to someone like Jim Sam
se Saman good call by the way the people
you mentioned I have immense respect
for.
>> Yeah. So [snorts] why would they because
Yeah. I I I wouldn't imagine they would
want to lie about this stuff.
>> No. No. I don't think I don't think
they're lying.
>> Okay.
>> They don't they have no motivation to
lie about it. Yeah. Yeah. So, I think
it's well I think it's sincere and and
well intended uh statements. You take
it,
>> but you wouldn't put your money on them
being right.
>> Um I don't know what being right is.
See, one thing I haven't been able to
get from we had congressional testimony,
we've had this movie, which I haven't
seen yet. So, so I'll defer judgment on
the on the movie. But the one thing we
haven't heard from any of them and the
question I would ask Jim Clapper or Jim
Sammy Banner or anybody if I called them
up as as old friends is to say okay you
say this and that. I never heard that
before. You say that before like what
why don't you then say exactly what you
mean. What if if you have that as a
statement you've say a summary of what
you think.
You're not going to provide any like
specifics of what you mean by that
>> right? when, where, how, where is it
now, what does it migrate may I
understand it might be deeply classified
and
>> they provide some specifics they talk
about Roswell is a real event there were
beings that came out of I think they say
four beings that came out of this craft
you know I think they even mentioned one
surviving or something so they do they
do mention some specific details
>> so you know I don't know there those are
real claims
>> yeah I mean I like I said I see no
reason
to discount
the people you mentioned among some of
the other people I've heard are in it
just because they don't have the proof.
Um, again, I' I' I'd implore
the government to think hard about what
they're trying to do here. What's what's
the purpose of of not disclosing?
>> Yeah.
>> Of non-disclosure
secrecy. One of the things I've always
felt strongly about is there's too much
secrecy in the government.
>> Yeah. And it's this kind of insidious
secrecy that's disruptive. It's because
of corrosive to democracy.
>> Yeah.
>> And and this is coming from me in my
community. There's too too much. There
damn good reasons not to talk about
certain nuclear data or who's a spy and
when you have EV, you know, you're
starting to pick up evidence of a spy in
your ranks or you're going to compromise
the thing and lose it.
other things we we just keep secret way
beyond its uh time for no reason. I
won't even say apparent which a
qualifier. I just say I could I could
state categorically. We we just keep
>> You think the UFO thing could be an
example of that or
>> Well, I I think it is not by virtue that
it wouldn't be revoly. Therefore,
somebody would say keep it secret
because it's like huge going to change
our whole impression of life in the
universe. Okay. Yeah.
>> But that's the reason I would say they
got to declassify it. You can't keep
something like that secret.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, you can't you you got to share
that. Everybody in this country ought to
know if the US government has concluded
that there's life on other planets
because we have evidence.
Not because we've seen, you know, tic
tacs or I get all that, you know, there
and there's still a big joke, of course,
which you know all this better than I
is, you know, why are all these images
always fuzzy? But it's it's the idea
that that
>> but they even have explanations for
that. They say is like l you know
gravitational lensing and blue shifts
and red. The guy who talks about that is
this guy Hal Putoff who's at University
of Institute of Advanced Study Austin
and he, you know, is, I think, a
longtime CIA guy as well. And he talks
about Steven Hadley in the Bush
administration is going through this
whole exercise of should we disclose or
should we not disclose and them reading
the threebody problem as part of this
exercise to figure out whether you know
this is this Chinese science fiction
novel that involves this you know
tricolarian alien race or whatever and
uh the aliens having a lot to do with
frontier physics as well clamping down
on our physics because that's our tip of
the spear ability to defend ourselves as
the human race,
>> right?
>> And um so and he said they go through
this whole exercise and they come out
saying, you know, it's actually it's not
worth it to to to disclose and and how
put off said this on, you know, Joe
Rogan like the biggest podcast in the
world. And I'm like, what's going on?
You like you have on the one you have
this indetectable undetectable dark
matter. You have on the one hand people
like Elon Musk like yourself who like
you know super like amazing bonafites
extremely respectable like highly
intelligent you know know a lot of stuff
and then you have Jim Semi Vanhal put
off Jim Clapper and they're all like so
pro- UFO and they have like discrete
stories of these and I'm like what's
like how do I make sense of this you
know?
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
>> It's so confusing. Well, I think I think
the way you make sense of it is to keep
keep pushing it and keep in in uh
interviewing and and keep
>> Do you think Hadley ever went through an
exercise like that? I mean, [gasps]
>> there's really no I put no value in my
in my judgment except to say, you know,
I know Steve Hadley and I respect him,
too.
>> Yeah.
>> I've never heard anything like that.
>> Never heard anything?
>> No. I mean, I I I I said, you know, I
just want you to know one thing.
>> Yeah.
>> I don't know. And if I knew, I probably
would. I I can't say categorically I
know I would, but I can't see why I
would keep that a secret even even at
risk to myself
>> of of being punished in some way. I just
I I feel that fervently.
>> No, I appreciate that. And I also, you
know, I think if that weren't the case,
you probably wouldn't come on the show
[laughter] because I I [gasps] could
throw I mean like I mean I and I and I
won't, you know, I'm not I won't belabor
this too long, but like there's so much.
It's like a whole ontology that has
basically you can you can create around
the DOE being like holding the crown
jewels of US stuff.
>> There's transclassified foreign material
and you know special nuclear material
from the you know 1954 atomic energy act
where you have restricted data. Anything
that could be radiological in nature is
immediately born secret upon sort of
retrieving it.
>> I know I know that. Yeah,
>> I'm sure you're familiar. So, like
there's this idea that that is sort of
this Trojan horse for UFO material
>> and that you know Nest nuclear emergency
support teams like
>> you know I spoke to um my buddies UAP
Gerb and and then this other guy um
David Grush who's this whistleblower
before this and they were talking
>> you know about those two things and so
you there's nothing that you know about
any of that stuff.
>> No. And and I I you know hasten to add
when I when I I think back at myself in
in in all modesty some guy coming in
from CIA to head up intelligence for 3
years. Um obviously the intelligence
shop is not the place to go for this
information or having access to it. Now,
there might be one person they trust
with there. And it is a it is an
organization, Dwey, that that you could
easily imagine because I described the
the going in through the the multiple
vaults back deeper and deeper into the
recesses of the building to the point
where there's not a sound coming in out
of there other than the people talking
in the in the room. So, you you you have
a culture where this is all very
possible.
>> Yeah.
And I have known other subjects, a few
that I've got roped into where there was
a very exclusive group of people um
looking at it uh and to the point where
this was even at CIA where we didn't put
anything well spec very specific thing
not generally done and very highly
unusual irregular I'd call it where
nothing pertaining to that was even put
into any kind of a record.
>> Yeah. Yeah. There. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
>> So, anything's imaginable.
>> Yeah, it's possible. Yeah. I mean, I at
the Soul Foundation, this was this
Stanford um organization that's
dedicated to UFO research.
>> Um these NNSA guys, National Nuclear
Security Administration guys showed up.
And so, it's like, why are you
interested in this stuff? And then
>> there's this News Nation, which just
covers UFOs a lot. There's this slide
that was like uh advanced gravity
propulsion research and it was a guy who
had incurred some sort of Havana
syndrome like you know biological
effects
>> but it was you know it was like that was
his title and so I'm like okay DOE is
doing this exotic
>> gravity.
>> Well that doesn't surprise me at all.
>> Okay.
>> No no I
>> but the UFO stuff surprises. Well,
there's there's a there's a major
distinction here, you know, looking into
I would call all forms of materials and
advanced propulsion techniques and and
uh energy related when people think of
department of energy
>> just to for a very quick very quick
explanation of what it is
>> which most people don't know.
>> Yeah. is department of energy consists
of really three main components that are
but it's a hybrid that shouldn't exist
together but it's a product of a lot of
politics that created DOE. The one side
there's the energy part which contrary
to a lot of a lot of common belief is
not just gas and oil and and fossil
fuels. It's also advanced form of
renewables. It's for nuclear power and
of course it's for looking into advanced
energy forms some of which we don't.
gravity magnets what all so all that's
in the energy department
>> and there's an overwhelming thought it's
just you know Jimmy Carter created it
during the
>> crisis with the Middle East over gas and
oil so that's no but it's all this other
stuff that's strengthened by the second
major component of DOE which is the
science part of DOE which a lot of which
does pure science
>> so the pure science part of DOE is some
of its research for ongoing needs of the
US government. Some of it's just
advanced things. I mean, I've met some
of the most fascinating people who do
things like chaos theory and look for
numbers equation,
you know, the equation of chaos or it
got me on a whole track of thinking of
my philosophy and my beloved philosophy
in a totally different way, which is
wow, what if every human decision like
in in history is just permutations of
choices we make freely. But no matter
what we do, it's to determine outcome
because all those choices inevitably
because they're driven by an equation
>> of human nature.
>> So they all drive you to the same
result. Well, I got some of those ideas
from DOE scientists.
>> So who are who are doing and and some of
them are into that esoteric those
esoteric kind of aspects of their work
and again wonderful people to talk to
some of them you know very eccentric or
whatever you want to call it. And then
the third part is the National Nuclear
Security Administration which is almost
like I describe as an autonomous
republic within within the DOE because
it's got some independent status because
at for a time the NNSA was seen as not
getting it the attention and freedom of
action it needed within a dysfunctional
DOE. It's not dysfunctional anymore. DOE
is quite functional but there was a
period that's why I refer to the
politic. So you had those three many
ways complimentaries but in some ways
independent. And then the national
nuclear security uh national laboratory
complex serves those three things energy
uh nukes and pure science.
>> Yeah.
>> And they they're they're proportioned in
uh their work and what's required what
the basic priorities are. Have you ever
seen a oneofone material like the a
super unique material that's never
you've never seen elsewhere?
>> No.
>> Okay.
>> I would remember that. The other the
other, you know, common attribute is you
realize how vast what I just described
is. So the probability that I know a lot
of it is small and and but but it's
prescribed. So by that I mean I I'll be
kind of vague, but
>> everything that's exceptional.
>> Yeah. Typically, you get read into
individually.
>> Yeah.
>> It's not just yours as a result of the
job you hold.
>> Yeah.
>> If it's important enough, then you get
like someone will tap you on the
shoulder and you have, you know,
specials things happen. Things happen
that are different. So, it's entirely
possible that there are very few people
that know a lot about all the most
important things, if that makes sense,
because they're divided.
>> Yeah. And I could easily see things like
we're talking about being in a separate
category which is even curtailed further
by people who really need to know
because the ultimate the need of the the
chapter that I have in my book for this
is called need to know. So the other I'm
trying to also illustrate a principle.
I've never been entirely comfortable
about intelligence and government
secrecy is the idea that need to know
governs it all. M
>> well that's fine
if need to know is perfectly
interpreted
>> well I think the public [laughter] needs
is is a need is has a need to know for
the ontological truth the basic you know
it's just like
>> nuclear science is taught at every
university but nuclear trade secrets
should be classified I think that should
be applied to right
>> this if it's at all real and to me when
people ask about you know my conviction
in UFOs I always say you have
view everything probabilistically. The
idea that we're in some reverse
engineering arms race, I would
probability weight much lower than I am
sure that there are these objects
showing up around nuclear assets all
over the world. Not even there's a town
in Japan, we have our American Alchemy
Japanese shirts here. There's a town in
Japan next to the Fukushima prefrure
which is their civilian energy grid that
has a m it's this mountain senori. They
have a whole museum dedicated to UFOs
and all these geomagnetic anomalies and
they're obsessed with UFOs. So,
>> I do I do think that is this ubiquitous,
you know, commonality and and that that
is that is the thing I think you can be
most high conviction in a UFO world. But
um well then I can also see that the tie
there's just such an obvious tie-in with
um
other than worldly life forms or
intelligence and our highest forms of
intelligence or most destructive things
like nuclear. Yeah. I mean, cuz there
again, the the whole idea of I' I've
tried to get accustomed or adapted to
the reality of
nuclear weapons and nuclear secrets my
whole life, even having spent by by
accident as I unfolded. It unfolded as a
big accident. But when I look back on
it, yeah, it's like nuclear here,
nuclear here, and there's always it's a
little bit like your appearances are all
the nuclear sites. It's like it keeps
coming to me. And you could even make a
case if you wanted to write that script
that some of these appearances were uh a
divine awareness in sense of messages
and of the need to warn and the because
the essence of the Ezekiel warning is a
watchman. The watchman is a specific
type of you know it's not a messenger
it's not a prophet it's a watchman only
responsibility is to warn. M
>> so specifically in biblical terms the
idea of the watchman warning the people
>> will be held accountable not for if it's
true or stops whatever is going to
happen from happening that that's not
the accountability
>> the accountab explicit accountability of
being a watchman is to warn your job is
to warn
so when you ask me did you prevent or
you you have to banish that idea from
your mind that you are going to prevent
the apocalypse or shape it in
form cuz I don't think any human being
is going to have that responsibility.
But it's pretty hard just to do the
warning part. [laughter]
>> Yeah.
>> Cuz like you said, if people genuinely
believe that this is part of it and
maybe you're a watchman for for you know
shining a light on so so much on this
factor particularly depending how things
turn out.
>> Yeah. Yeah. We'll see. I'm I'm curious
to see where this whole topic goes. Um,
you know, in the in this in this kind of
hazing ritual brief that you had on
UFOs, do you remember the date of
Roswell that they gave you?
>> Uh, no, not off the top of my head. I
think I had it in the I think I wrote it
in the book, but
>> it is in the book and it's July 7th,
1947.
>> Yeah.
>> Do you think that connects with your
download 747?
>> Oh my goodness. Good.
>> [laughter]
>> You know, that's the first time I've
ever thought that that it might
>> Are you Are you trying to tell the
audience in coded fashion that you might
know [laughter] a thing?
>> I'm I'm being as what I've tried to be
throughout the in complete and it's even
better in complete honesty, which didn't
even cross my mind. So, I couldn't
possibly have
>> fabricated that to make it more
compelling.
>> There's one other one that's a really
interesting. There was a uh this will
fit your you need to look this up if you
don't already know it. Yeah. So, one of
the scientists at DOE kind of knew my my
stuff with numbers and this may have
even read
>> explained to me the famous Bella. Have
you heard the Bella incident?
>> Nuclear explosion.
>> It's it's called uh the seven they
labeled it the 747 incident.
>> Whoa.
>> And it's a nuclear test
>> that South Africa made,
>> right? But the suspicion is they did it
on behalf of the Israelis.
>> It's a suspicion. I'm not saying to your
viewers, you know, this is but this is
the into the murky secrets of the
development of the Israeli bomb which of
course the US kind of gave the big
thumbs up handshake deal to you know we
know you need this kind of thing at
least that's what I what I've heard. So
the point being there is boy that's a
very 747 look it up fascinating.
Yeah, I don't know. I I I think there's
something
very ontologically interesting about
nuclear and it's some sort of energy
unlock that if I were some sort of
concurrent civilization, whether it's
extraterrestrial,
you know, which the people who deny UFOs
at the highest levels often say
extraterrestrial because I think it's a
>> we don't have evidence that's
extraterrestrial, you I think it's it
could be like, you know, some sort of
nonhuman or even ultraterrestrial, some
past civilization on Earth or something,
>> but that it seems like
>> they would want to monitor nuclear like
that just seems like this really
important unlock and it that seems to be
corroborated by all the evidence. But as
to what that means, I just don't know.
>> Uh that now you're thinking of other
people looking at us maybe way past this
point. There's some secret we may bump
into. M
>> I don't know that they're as worried
about us blowing ourselves up as we you
know what they probably have no reason
to worry too much about that
>> but what if they're worried we're going
to cross a threshold of knowledge that
they're already aware of and that has
grave implications for them
>> that's really interesting I mean it's
like the building blocks of life or if
life is
>> if you think about the universe is like
information theoretic like maybe you're
getting into the root access or
something
>> well you know but it it adds another
element to this that isn't I don't think
well enough
understood or absorbed by the public is
we take for granted the kind of the
expression of this incredible God's
secrets I call it
>> is manifested in our discoveries of
those secrets
>> and yet in every domain whether it's AI
or nuclear or biological life sciences
in every one of those domains our
knowledge is so limited
>> yes
>> of what we're dealing with and if you go
to we we think a little about the
implications of AI and I've heard some
in various places I've heard talks even
by some of the top guys on this and it
[clears throat] scares the hell out of
me.
>> Well then yeah it does and so
>> they don't know what they're doing.
>> Well it's it's it's like you could call
it a process of like hacking or
something. Sovelt is like um this my old
colleague Eric Weinstein talks about
this where it's like
>> you get to deeper layers of ontological
truth the more the better your
measurement instruments are or there's
even a physicist who was at CERN for a
while Ken Wilson talks about um uh phase
transitions in materials and the more
you put them under duress you know that
you get these whole new properties like
you know as you you put them under
duress
>> and so
I wonder if you know it's kind of what
we were talking about before with
quantum indeterminacy between level of
energy and time. If you have particle
accelerators or nuclear blasts, you
might get weird ontological weirdness
around those events,
>> particularly as little as we know the
physics, you know, and especially since
uh the people at the top of those fields
are guiding all of us. And and it's the
same with these other fields, right? And
that's the I mean cloning.
>> Yeah.
>> What stunning.
>> Yeah.
>> I I never I never thought I had a dream
once on cloning long before clones
>> and I thought that's never going to
happen in my lifetime. Well, you know,
pets are being cloned, brought back to
life. And that in itself, we're we're
playing God. So,
>> we're at the point where we're in a way
we've earned this as the only by in
biblical terms again, we're recreated in
the image of God. Yes, I
>> I was always seized by that. I I at an
early age even I recognized this is
special. Image of God means really it's
a two-way thing means God has a
responsibility for us in a way that
>> that I'm sure God will fulfill and that
we that's been the essence of everything
we've talked about. God's going to send
messengers. God's going to send his own
son. God's going to do X and Y. Send a
prophet Muhammad. But all the things
that and with with the typical
characters behind them, always the same
people. Angel Gabriel and they're always
the same people. always the same
entities right behind all and then all
that's going to be his way of guiding us
making sure we don't screw up entirely
before you know in the end okay I'm
going to give some reassurance which
sounds awful but judgment day and apocal
that things are going to turn out
because that's really what it's about
it's not about punishing us we punish
ourselves it's about reconciliation it's
about judgment meaning you there is a
reward and a penalty for what you do in
your life you're not you're not here
anonymously
>> like That was the thing on the train. It
was like I'm like I God's aware. He's
there right now. He's like standing
there.
>> That's why that is in the book because I
never had that feeling before after. It
was the one time it was just that deep.
And and so the same thing applies with
handling God's
gifts. So we're we're entitled. We're
given access
>> to things [clears throat] that we in a
way have no right have access to. But
we're not. There's no point to give us
freedom in the whole Garden of Eden
story unless it's full freedom.
>> Mhm.
>> Which because of the way we're wired,
>> we're going to screw that up for the
most part.
>> And so that's all known.
>> Yes,
>> you can write your equations now.
>> Yeah,
>> God is. God knows.
>> Yeah,
>> it'll play out how many Hegelian
dialectical histories you want to write.
They all might be different, but guess
what? They're all going to end the same
way. But when it comes to how the
handling of the power yeah of God turns
out that's the unique test and that's
what so I never get into prophes I don't
prophesize anything but predict when's
the apoc when's it start like one of the
things about my dream was that I
specifically remember was60 in the
chameleon dream of the future where I
was trying UFOs and going out and trying
I was already in an apocalypse of going
back and forth the nuc part of the world
had been destroyed with the great
nuclear war of 2030 34 and I was going
back and forth trying to find people
trying to make bombs. This is way before
I did the terrorist bomb stuff.
>> Wow.
>> By the way.
>> Wow.
>> Yeah. This is
>> You had a dream about this.
>> This is the dream that I had that you
talked you asked me about in 1981
>> and you said you were flying on what the
DOE would call UFOs.
>> UFOs. Yeah. And it was I had the dream
in 1982
>> and and but this was these were our like
crafts like American craft.
>> Our crafts sent from CIA.
>> Yeah.
from all managed and all connected to a
massive supercomput. We would call a
quantum. I didn't know that back then.
>> In in the bowels of CIA underground,
>> do you think that we have propulsion
modalities that transcend chemical
combustion?
>> I don't know.
>> Yeah.
>> No idea. But in the dream, certainly.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
>> In the dream, certainly. I I I didn't
know what it was. I just was flying
around like it was all known. But like
my dream didn't reveal to me how but it
was a it was a manifestation of Reagan's
Star Wars thing Star War which before
Star Wars. So he gave the great Star
Wars speech I think in '84.
>> Mhm.
>> And my dream was in ' 82. So I was
already anticipating I'll call it that
this idea of a shield.
>> So my dream was basically the world had
been divided in two. the world in the
shield, the world out of the shield. And
the whole point was to keep of the UFOs
and intelligence was a global
intelligence service that would keep out
keep out the uh people trying to break
through the shield.
>> Well, that Yeah, that's fascinating.
>> So, now we're into what? We're into
exactly what you're talking about.
>> Yeah. Yeah. And that that in fact the
bluegill triple prime thing was it was a
high altitude nuclear test but it was a
defense against uh Russian ICBMs and
Soviet ICBMs. And there's even a Rand
Corporation paper a couple years before
it was pulled off around speculating as
to how that would be done. And Malgrim
was at the Institute for Defense
Analysis at the time and they've been
involved in every missile defense you
know system since then. and he directly
ties Bluegill Triple Prime to Star Wars
and to um you know um a strategic
defense initiative and so then there's
again there's this like weird question
of like is there some dual use around
UFOs for that or something like I don't
know and you have the Golden Dome now
you know and
>> well I think one of the questions I know
people are asking but just like when
you're hearing us talk
>> yeah muse about this is we're sort of
due for another big
transformational change. I mean, we've
had, of course, the industrial age and
>> then we had now re more recently the the
internet age.
>> And it's just strikes me that we're due
for something
>> like this this idea of something
propelling us into a future we really
haven't anticipated as over in a way
overwritten on everything, every
possible permutation of our future.
something that's going to change on
that. We're going to say, "Whoa, it's
not that future after all."
>> It feels like we're on the verge of a
paradigm shift for sure.
>> It does.
>> And it it feels like like at least for
the stuff I'm investigating feels like
the dam is going to break cuz there are
if if the uh kind of incumbent, you
know, um uh current paradigm is like,
you know, inside of the dam or whatever,
there are like 15 different vectors of
like holes in the dam. And that thing is
just it's about to burst. Like it really
>> that when I hear you, you know,
talk about all these different things
that you're working on too, that's the
immediate reaction I had is what we we
just said there with with one another is
we're ready for a big paradigm shift.
It's probably going to be something
we've never anticipated.
>> Yeah.
>> Based on something we didn't see coming.
And the most important thing of that is
it's happening at a time and I think
very few people understand this. I'm not
trying I I don't want to talk be
condescending but I just I myself
struggle with this a lot. Uh where time
and scale is time is rapidly shrinking
on us.
>> Everything is more accessible so fast we
can't process it much like make good
back in the day when you mailed things
and you set cables and you imagine how
easier you could contemplate things. you
can make that even then it was rough
making good decisions and at a certain
point we reached a happy medium where
this where speed increased to the point
we can better decisions faster
>> but now we're at the point I'm sure of
this
>> in government or even maybe the private
sector I think where the amount of
things we have to decide at the speed we
have to decide them is overwhelming us
>> at the scale it applies because of
population growth and how everything's
interacted and the way the internet has
tied everything together. Well, that's
what that movie Age of Disclosure felt
like. It felt like the government trying
to get in front of uh all these kind of
truths coming out and figuring out a way
to frame it or something, you know, I
hope proactively.
>> Be good.
>> Sure. Yeah. And but you know, it feels
it does feel like
>> that is inevitable like this stuff is is
sort of uh coming out. And I I wonder in
some ways like you you believe in
angels, right?
>> Yes, I do. Yeah, of course. So
these all these things have literally
happened to you. And I wonder if like
it's like the age of disclosure has
their veneer of like extraterrestrials.
Your veneer might be angels, demons,
esquetology, the Bible. If I were like,
would you believe that angels might show
up around nuclear sites? That might seem
more plausible to you.
>> Well, in a way, in a way. And I'm, you
know, I told you I'm so hesitant to link
UFOs to faith and mysticism. Oh, with
that gigantic caveat, I'm sorry.
>> No, no, no, no. Don't apologize. It's
fun. It's fun, right?
>> I don't I don't think it discredits
religion or faith or in any way insults.
>> Well, it's trying to um
>> figure out some underlying truth
between, you know, the the way you're
describing what's happened to you
personally and then these, you know, all
these other intelligence officials who
are saying we are not alone, you know.
>> Right. Well, I think I think where it
ties I was getting to the my big
however, you know, is is if you believe
the one like like like you said, I'm
utterly there's not even any doubt in my
mind about all these things and and also
the existence of angels like Gabriel and
now what how you describe that or what
that reality is whether you know
obviously the wing figure coming from is
I think symbolic of uh a messenger from
a different state of reality
but now we're getting very close to
being visited by life forms in our own
universe that are that technically or
shouldn't be much intersection with us.
It's I've never really doubted the the
the sort of actuarial realities that
intelligent life must exist in the
universe. I've I've really never
questioned that. What I've I want to see
is the evidence of it and begin to
understand what that means for us. But
I've also wanted to understand how
spaceime makes that work because
everything is so distant.
uh from us that even with advanced forms
of Star Trek forms of travel, which I
loved that show when I was growing up,
uh it's hard to imagine we're going to
intersect at precisely that moment of
advanced development of our
civilizations in this place in our
place. uh that would be a very low odds,
>> not impossible,
>> but and then but then when you introduce
something that we just talked about as
being some breakthrough of truth
somewhere that changes entirely our
notions of reality, we already know
>> we haven't unified physics.
>> Mhm.
>> Well, that's a big one right there.
>> Yeah.
>> There's a reason for that. And I don't
think Einstein just got lazy after, you
know, his earliest part of his life when
he was at his greatest. I will I will
sort of reinforce one idea though is I I
I have a much greater belief in younger
people like you and others pushing us
into the future than I do my generation.
And not so much because we've done
achieved what we want to do, but you
know, your minds change. you don't you
know I I I don't deserve to be the
person I was getting all the insights
and things to guide my life and my work
that I now that I had then so if I want
them now it's more for my own you know
satisfaction and that's not good enough
right but but the idea behind this is
that that we need
people who don't consider themselves
experienced or informed through advanced
degrees and all is to think like you and
others think and to push us. That's
where the inspiration is going to come.
I mean, Einstein was a clerk when he was
doing his greatest work and there's so
many scientists who were like that now.
Yeah. Maybe he's a genius, but
[laughter]
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's uh Yeah.
It'll be interesting to see what
happens. It feels like there are all
these kind of heterodox threads of
science that weren't taken seriously at
all, you know, for the last 30, 40
years. And uh increasingly they're kind
of in vogue and being taken seriously.
And in certain cases, I think they've
been behind, you know, walls of secrecy
or stigma, you know, things like like
documented is, you know, the the CIA's
efforts in remote viewing and
parasychology. And, you know, that's I
think a wellrespected intelligence
modality. and you know at Langley uh but
um you know and only until the last few
years you know that was that was kind of
rested out of the government with the
Freedom of Information Act request in
2017 and only in the last few years are
people saying there's something clearly
here and I think the the problem I have
with the super anti-UFO people are like
they
you know say oh this can't be possible
this observable thing that you you've
seen a million different times with all
these credible people coming out and
saying it can't be real because of the
phys this phys because of our current
physical model of the universe. But if
you were to bet on the anomaly
historically and against the physical
model of the universe, you would always
be right.
>> You know, you're always wrong if you bet
on the physical model of the universe.
So,
>> right,
>> I do think we're on the precipice of
something exciting.
>> Well, yeah, I agree with you totally and
I hope it's very positive. I I worry on
one one aspect that I think as we learn
more about the reality we're creating
[gasps]
rather than the reality that exists. We
need to make sure we continue to make
that distinction. And that can that can
take the smallest form of knowing when
you're a virtual reality uh figure in in
an app you're playing on your iPad or if
you're a kid. making sure the kids, you
know, don't lose their minds in in in in
a in a fantasy reality. And I this is
coming from someone who's had these very
vexing, disturbing, disorienting dreams
that I've had. And who am I to talk? And
but it was a problem for me in some
respects too that I've outlined. And
then there it goes up one level from
that where you have people, you know,
relying on chat GPT to be their
girlfriend or boyfriend or give them
life advice. I'm saying, "Wow, this is
this is more than dangerous. People are,
you know, the idea I I I said at one
point we talked about identity a little
bit and how culturally that was
different from people who are more
individualistic societies versus say
common bond societies. Yeah. That depend
on one another, have a perception
they're more in involved with one
another. But think about it from the
standpoint of of how that changes
uh when you can create a reality that
doesn't exist and replace your reality
because it's not a very good life you're
leading.
>> Yeah.
>> Right now you might go buy opiates or do
something because you see no hope in
your future and you don't have good
health care, you don't have a good job,
you don't really have any hope you're
going to break out of this terrible
cycle we put. So we I think that's a we
thing personally. Yeah, some people
bring it on themselves,
>> but we as a country owe more to people
than we've given them. This isn't a now
problem that we've created. This has
been a growing problem for decades. And
and into that environment comes the
temptation to create alternative lives
and realities. Um I was watch you know
watching Zuckerberg and Mark Zuckerberg
and others trying to create this idea of
pe having people. Why do they want to do
this? They want people to come on these
virtual realities so they can buy
imaginary plots of land
>> so they can make money off it.
>> Yeah.
>> I mean, wow.
>> Yeah. No, it's dystopian. That's part of
the reason I'm into the UFO thing
because I think it's if our life is if
if this somewhat of a simulation, I
think there's a life affirming version
of the simulation where we're in a
platonic cave and you can ascend outside
and see the light that's lighter than
light and and you know um witness great
things in this reality. And so why would
you go into this sort of bitco
compressed reality? And so that that's
what motivates me when I'm trying to
close this gap between well super
wellrespected people like yourself and
then these other people like you know
Chris Melon, deputy assistant director
of intelligence for you know under Bush
and and Clinton. He even he just said he
was like you know um we want to put the
CIA's director of science and technology
I think it was the one of the last ones.
She was like, "We need to figure out
what she knows about UFOs." And so I'm
like,
>> I'm like, it's maddening to me. Like, h
how would how would you advise that I
figure out what's going on? [laughter]
>> Well, I I think you're doing a good job
of the best thing you can do is what
you're doing is interview credible
witnesses.
Avoid drawing conclusions until you have
to. But by the same token, I think most
of the most of the mind shut phenomena,
whether it's UFOs or
>> frankly a lot of traditional things,
there's a whole massive number of
people, I can name any, but I won't
embarrass people,
>> uh, who who just flat won't deal with
terrorists having nukes or big
biological weapons simply because they
want to think that, you know, men men
wearing rags, you can't can't do it. And
but it's the idea though that you just
miss something because, you know, you
want you underestimate them. And that's
what you're not doing. And you you can't
underestimate. And the people who tend
to do that and dismiss it dismissive
people on anything I've ever dealt with,
there's a group of dismissive people.
Yeah.
>> Because you're usually placing your bet
on probability basis.
>> Yes.
>> Not impact basis. Y
>> and and the real risk equation for any
good national security person or someone
doing what you're doing is to assess
risk is intent times capability
times consequences.
>> Yeah. So we sometimes assume intent.
That's typical. That's done a lot.
Assume intent. They can, they don't.
Well, part of our failure on 911,
frankly, as an intelligence community
was we didn't assume they had the intent
to do that. We And then the capability
you don't even really look into. You
don't see it because you haven't really
ascribed that intent to them that they
do something that audacious.
>> Yeah.
>> And then of course the consequence is
all they're really looking for. So the
Yeah. You you you multiply those things
out. But it's the same thing with UFOs.
It's like your your best bet as a
observer trying to maintain some
credibility.
>> Yeah.
>> Like astronomers who cast judgment on
every new visitor to our solar system is
to dismiss it as anything. And then if
the day comes at some point when it's a
real thing, [gasps]
oh, they they're they're nowhere to be
found.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I Yeah. Exactly. No.
Exactly. Yeah. Did Did you know Glenn
Gaffne at all? I did cuz he this guy um
>> I I like him a lot.
>> He's a nice he's a good guy. He he was
um
>> he's I think currently on the board of
Arrow, the all domain anomalies research
resolution office what he's doing. who
was the director of science and
technology
>> and technology at the CIA. And there's
there pe uh a couple of people, one of
which was under oath in front of
Congress said he blocked the the
transfer of UFO material from
uh Loheed Martin to Bigalow Aerospace.
Do you know anything about that?
>> No, but it's pretty specific.
>> It is specific. It's a specific Yeah.
Anyways, well, okay. Uh well, I
appreciate you indulging my crazy
question.
>> No, I'm not indulging. I'm learning it.
It's fascinating. I I I will say one
more thing about that wasn't when Glenn
was the head of director of science
technology, but I
>> I've had a lot of interactions with them
over you know the decades and one thing
I did learn from the interactions is
that
>> most of what they do most of what they
do I had I wasn't privy to. I had no no
reason to be brought into from a need to
know perspective. So there's all kinds
of things I probably don't know.
>> So you and you swear to God you know
nothing about UFOs.
>> Oh yeah. Yeah. I sw I swear to God.
>> Okay. Wow.
[laughter] I I'd hedge
>> because I and I know that means a lot to
you because you're
>> I you know it's it's it's it's a whole
different conversation. But I I try
never to be deceptive or lie. That's
what it would be. Even when I'd have a
reason like you you're given an alibi
because oh yeah, you're told not to tell
so you can lie. No, I'll find a
different way to not say it than lie.
>> Yeah. Yeah. And I've learned that
actually it's extremely important being
in a manipulative business, which you
can't deny intelligence can be, it's
even more important to maintain your
personal integrity and and and and
ability to to be credible with people.
So if I'm dealing with the Russians,
we've had some stories about that, or I
actually there's a chapter in my book
where I'm dealing with Syrian
intelligence or any other intelligence
service in the world or country. uh my
credibility lies in not lying to them.
>> Yeah.
>> And because then what I tell them is
suspect. So then I've contaminated
whatever CIA has to offer that. So I I
make it a not only a habit but my my
personal integrity. I I also believe and
I've given lectures on this. Um there's
no contradiction or conflict between
recruiting agents and running them and
there we obviously use aliases and
things. That's not deceptive. If your
goal is to protect the agent, the agent
knowing your real name is bad for the
agent.
>> Sure. Yeah.
>> Those kinds of things.
>> Yeah, of course.
>> But when it comes down to a real litmus
test, how far am I willing to go for the
agent versus what the agency tells me to
do with the agent?
I will defer to the agents welfare
because this is a human being.
>> So ultimately, um, I'll find a way to
reconcile the two. I don't like to al
flat out defy headquarters. if I can
help it, but I have done it.
>> And then the test is a different test
when I flat out say no or defy them and
don't do what I've been told to do,
which I don't recommend to everybody out
there. But in those cases, I'll I'll
I'll uh own up to it.
Usually before I'll say, "No, I'm not
going to do what you just told me to
do." Then there'll be a discussion.
[laughter]
>> Yeah. And this is again a test of the uh
integrity of your organization whether
it's CIA or any other in the US
government. What how does an
organization react when you've done
something you think is either you're
told to do something that it's either
illegal or immoral or or both? How do
you handle it? And it's a test of the
organization whether you're asked to do
that. Now, what I personally I've said
to myself personally over all my
careers, and I've never had to go to the
mat on it to the point I quit, but I
would have if I can't reconcile that, I
will do what I know is the right thing
to do.
>> Yeah.
>> So, we done some bad things, but I
understood the reasons for it and we did
it for not doing the wrong thing, but
just cuz things sometimes you're faced
with a terrible choice and you don't
have an option. But I just wanted to
stress that because it's it's come up
again in in recent times. you know, you
just to be very careful about work
through the whole, for example, uh uh
forgetting his name, Edward Snowden
defected to China and the Russians, and
he's been described by people as a
whistleblower, and and there was a
whistle whistleblowing aspect to his
motivations and tensions and actions,
but it was far exceeded by the damage he
set out to cause
>> to the US government [clears throat] for
no whistleblowing reason. So you have
all this.
>> Yeah, it's complicated with him because
on the one hand, I I do think it's
important that the public know that the
NSA is a back door into every big tech
company. They have these programs like
Prism and Bull Run and they can just spy
on you through your smart TV and your
phone and like that's a that's messed
up. That's not
>> Well, it's not that simple.
>> Okay.
>> No, it's not that simple.
>> Okay. But the other the other part of
the answer to that question is um the
government should in fact have done
maybe some things different than he
alleged and so he had there was a
certain but he went far
>> he well he definitely you know
compromised
>> far beyond that.
>> Sure. Sure.
>> And things that had nothing to that just
pure immense damage to national security
with no whistleblower benefit. So he
knew exactly what he's doing. And then
you look into the whole background. Now
why do I single him out? I'm not trying
to make him a particular you know target
of my wrath or hire is that this is this
is the problem in a nutshell is citizens
individual officers integrity everybody
comes together on trying to maintain the
integrity of what we're doing and the
more it's secret the more it's dark and
deep the more we have to to do it and
the more disclosure is necessary at the
right level and we've talked so many
ways about how we limit it where we
limit it you know this kind of
Do do you think anything's going to
>> happen further on the UFO front? Do you
think more is going to come out or?
>> Yeah. I can't imagine it's the end of
the story, right? It's just almost in a
way feels like it's just beginning.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean I Yeah, that would be
my expectation as well. I mean I like in
the world in which we have reverse
engineering programs, material, all that
stuff, it is actually like a se serious
national security issue. If the left
hand's not talking to the right, you
have these bigoted special access
programs that are like unqueriable, not
answering to any sort of civilian
organization. There's zero congressional
oversight. And then you're competing
against Russia and China who have these
central bases where they can just, you
know, pluck scientists from wherever and
place them there and get them to work on
whatever they want. Like if in the world
where that's real, it's it would seem
like a dire issue just for the And like
I always say that as a dog whistle to
the national security people. All I care
about is the truth. I care about the
truth coming out. I get rid of the
truth, but like
>> the watchmen.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
>> Well, one one one, you know, more thing
on that. I I think it's can't reach a
conclusion, but
when you start thinking Area 51 and the
the crash and you've you've said this, I
haven't done that research and I haven't
looked into aside from
>> and you've been to Area 51, right? Yeah.
And you've never seen any UFO alien UFO
type things?
>> No. No, I'm sure the uh but I I mean
there the kind of two explanations. One
is it's our testing and what crash and
we're covering that up. And two, is it
intelligent life was there watching what
we're doing? And that's an area in which
you would be in at that point with all
the nuclear testing.
>> I think it's that because there over you
think maybe it was a
>> No, it's plausible. I I don't dismiss it
>> cuz in in 1945 over Hanford plutonium
base, you have this guy, this pilot Bud
Clem falling this like, you know, ball
of light around. You had you had stuff
happening super early in 47.
I mean, uh, Robert Goddard, who was a
rocket pioneer in the US, had just been
testing V2 rockets
right at Roswell. So, it's like I don't
think we were testing super advanced
propulsion. You know, there was some
interesting stuff happening in Nazi
Germany to that effect. But, you know,
you had Commto and you had these
interesting scientists doing some stuff
in that in that world, but
>> I I think what happened at Roswell was
was otherworldly. I do.
>> Yeah. I and I that's why I wanted to
reinforce
the possibility. I I I don't see how you
can dismiss it.
>> Yeah.
>> Unless you know it's not. In other
words, if someone This is another reason
to declassify because if there was an
internal experiment or you know
something maybe it's the problem with
that even if you then declassify and and
and
put it out there then there's this
possibility. We've continued over the
decades to work on whatever we were
working on and it was an early miserable
failure. There there's always that
explanation why we won't release.
>> Yeah. Well, that's also maybe my take. I
don't think we've done much with what
we've recovered. I think it's like uh
you know um caveman with a USB drive.
Caveman doesn't understand you, you
know, uh information theory. They have
nothing to plug it into. There's no
interface. It's not like an iPhone. You
know, that that would be my guess. Uh
well, when you consider the fact that
probably one of the most at least
plausible continuations of our species
over the next hundred years is that we
evolved to the point where the AI crew
we create doesn't want us around anymore
per all the all the movie. But that that
seems so plausible. The problem with
being so clever as we are on on
artificial intelligence is it's easy to
imagine us out programming
the reality of our our lives in in ways.
Not the whole lose control aspect of is
is just one thing, but I could easily
see humans deciding that the
perpetuation of the species and the
continued evolution of human beings will
no longer follow the the script of what
might have started as a a biblical uh
kind of a idea and to the point where
the one thing God would have want to
preserve in the evolution of not just
human species but all life on Earth. if
it's a god god plan is the idea of
mutation and the idea of the weak uh
moving on to take over the earth as it
goes and a definition we wouldn't think
of as the stronger and the superior and
even the idea Darwin laid out of the
survival of the fittest I kind of
because of my faith look entirely the
opposite now
>> which is really that is it's it's the
idea of sacrifice drives everything
>> and certainly if there's truth to the
idea behind Christ is the idea he came
to sacrifice and therefore the way
forward is sacrifice and then all the
truly great people almost all of them we
would call great people who we don't
emulate by the way
>> nobody emulates Christ mainly
>> but also people like Gandhi or Mandela
or people we admire you know who took
the path Toltoy was one of the greatest
pacifists in in of world history the way
he wrote and thought uh we don't really
follow that that lead we we kind of
respect it,
>> but we're on a completely different
path.
>> Yeah. Well, [laughter]
on on that note, yeah, I think it
should, you know, everybody out there
should try to imitate, you know,
sacrifice and and be be Christlike. And
um yeah, I mean, this it's fascinating
model of human evolution is, you know,
your your uh upward path through natural
selection is actually selflessness. And
it's not it's not the it's not the
Richard Dawkins selfish gene. It's the
the the selfless gene or something.
>> Yeah. Well, I mean, you think about it.
Human beings are at this point at the
apex of of of the global domination on
the basis of what's really our
conquering aspects, our or our our
animalistic side. And we have this other
side we're aware of that's more
charitable and sacrificial. But we have
a choice whether to obey one or the
other. And the the way forward looks
like it's domination, looks like it's
control. And and in fact, I've always
felt, but even more so as faith
developed, that I don't look at world
history as sort of Marxist Leninism
versus capitalism and all the rest of
that at all anymore.
>> I look at it as even people who whose
life's committed and dedicated to making
money
>> is for control.
>> It's all about control. And the opposite
of what God gave us all was to let
control go and allow us to explore
creation on our terms and and we spend
human endeavors to enslave everybody
again. That's it. That's an upshot. It's
almost like that's my sermon on the
mount.
>> Right. Well, that's a beautiful note to
end on. Ralph Moat Larson, thank you for
uh taking the time and sharing your
remarkable mystical experiences and
indulging my UFO questions and uh for
being here. Really appreciate you.
>> Thank you, Jesse. It's been a great
great session for me. I appreciate it.
>> It's been an honor. All right.
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