Link: https://youtu.be/d9tdJ2SkBKQ

Duration: 200 min

Short Summary

Bob Lazar, a self-described physics graduate who claims to have worked at S4 near Area 51 in 1989, provides detailed testimony about reverse-engineering the propulsion system of a non-human flying saucer powered by element 115. The episode combines his personal account with filmmaker Luigi Venditelli's four-year documentary investigation, independent verification evidence including modified government maps and 2022 satellite imagery, and scientific commentary from NASA scientist Dr. Charles Bueller on anti-gravity experiments using asymmetric capacitors that produce thrust without fuel or exhaust at 400 volts.

Key Quotes

1. "I just don't recognize your authority to tell me that I can't do what I'm doing. And, um, yeah, that's, that just seems to be part of my DNA." (00:10:00)
2. "It does stuff that's physically impossible. And there's no country in the world could make something like that or have the power density that it has. It's inconceivable." (00:22:00)
3. "Like we have no idea how the thing works. It does stuff that's physically impossible. And there's no country in the world could make something like that or have the power density that it has. It's inconceivable." (00:22:00)
4. "There are great ideas undiscovered. Breakthroughs available to those who can remove one of truth's protective layers." (03:02:00)

Detailed Summary

ThinkingBlock(signature='cfc629705e9e21c06de892c4ab7ae6c440563dcaf49dbb9c15d03cdb46f97aeb', thinking="The user wants me to create a detailed markdown summary for this episode based on the structured summary and section digests provided. Let me analyze the requirements:\n\n1. Markdown only\n2. At least 12 section headings using '##'\n3. Each section should start with 1-2 narrative sentences\n4. Include at least 36 bullets total across the document\n5. Bullets must focus on substantive claims, disagreements, mechanisms, examples, chronology, names, numbers, and outcomes\n6. Avoid sponsor copy, banter, repeated praise, meta commentary, and filler unless substantively relevant\n7. Prefer concrete details over generic abstraction\n\nI need to create a rich, scanable document that covers:\n- Bob Lazar's background and recruitment\n- S4 facility details\n- The craft and propulsion system\n- Element 115 and the reactor\n- Dr. Charles Bueller's anti-gravity experiments\n- Extended Heim Theory\n- Verification and evidence\n- Bismuth as key material\n- Government operations and Epstein connections\n- Physics theory and speculation\n- John Lear's background\n- Projects Galileo, Sidekick, and Looking Glass\n- Test flights and observed phenomena\n- Work at Los Alamos\n\nLet me structure this into at least 12 sections and ensure I have at least 36 bullets with concrete details.\n\nSection breakdown:\n1. Episode Overview\n2. Bob Lazar's Background and Recruitment\n3. Work at Los Alamos and Government Research\n4. S4 Facility Details and Employment\n5. The Craft and Propulsion System\n6. Test Flights and Observed Phenomena\n7. Projects Galileo, Sidekick, and Looking Glass\n8. The Reactor and Element 115\n9. Dr. Charles Bueller's Anti-Gravity Experiments\n10. Physics Theory: Extended Heim Theory\n11. Verification and Evidence\n12. Bismuth as Key Material\n13. Government Operations and Epstein Connections\n14. John Lear's Background and Connections\n\n\n15. Physics Speculation and Ultra-Terrestrial Hypothesis\n\nThis gives me 15 sections, well over the required 12. Now I'll draft this with rich, concrete details and ensure I hit the 36+ bullet minimum.\n", type='thinking')

Detailed Episode Summary: Bob Lazar and S4 - UFO Propulsion and Anti-Gravity Research

Episode Overview

This extended interview/documentary presentation features Bob Lazar, the controversial figure who claimed in 1989 to have worked at S4—a secret facility near Area 51—reverse engineering the propulsion system of a non-human flying saucer. The episode combines Lazar's personal testimony with filmmaker Luigi Venditelli's four-year documentary project, independent verification efforts, and scientific commentary from Dr. Charles Bueller, NASA's lead electrostatic scientist.

Bob Lazar's Background and Recruitment

Bob Lazar was born in Florida but spent most of his formative years on Long Island, New York, where he disassembled clocks and toys as a child to understand how they worked rather than playing with them normally. He describes having a lifelong problem with authority and not recognizing others' authority to stop him from doing what he wanted. He was inspired by science fiction shows including Fireball XL5, Thunderbirds, and Star Trek, viewing them as predictions of the future.

• Lazar's father had a connection to the mob, operated a wholesale food business, and was involved with racehorses and harness racing
• He worked at Fairchild Electronics in Simi Valley, California before becoming burnt out and sending a resume to Los Alamos
• He built a jet engine from scratch and installed it in his wife's Honda Civic, achieving a top speed of 212 mph
• In 1982, while working at Los Alamos, the local newspaper put his jet car on the front page, coinciding with Edward Teller's scheduled lecture at the lab
• Teller called the car "grossly impractical" but directed Lazar to EG&G after reviewing his resume
• George Knapp was instrumental in breaking Lazar's story in 1989 as part of KLAS
• He founded United Nuclear in 1999, which supplies Department of Homeland Security and FBI with radioactive sources for radiation detection training

Work at Los Alamos and Government Classified Research

Lazar worked at Los Alamos National Lab on a half-mile long linear particle accelerator that split its beam into different experimental areas. He built high voltage power supplies insulated by fiber optics for fine voltage adjustments on the particle accelerator. Day-to-day work involved cryogenics, high power magnets, radioactive materials, detector maintenance, and experiment setup.

• The particle accelerator worked by smashing particles apart and analyzing the debris to calculate mass, spin, and reconstruct particle properties
• Lazar compared it to throwing a Swiss watch at a wall to understand its components
• He claims he was sent to MIT by the government for classified research and cannot discuss what he worked on due to ongoing security agreements
• A tiger team tested Los Alamos security after Lazar's visit and found it so inadequate that security protocols were completely redone

S4 Facility Details and Employment

EG&G (Edgerton, Grimmerhausen, and Greer) documented and photographed nuclear tests, developed flash tubes for high-speed photography of nuclear detonations, and was founded by MIT faculty Doc Edgerton. During Lazar's EG&G interview, midway through they changed the job assignment to S4 at Papoose Lake. S4 is located approximately eight miles east of Groom Lake, Nevada.

• The Wilson Davis memo describes scientist Eric Davis meeting Admiral Thomas Wilson (head of J2 Joint Chiefs) in an EG&G parking lot regarding oversight of a corporate program reverse-engineering exotic UFO material
• S4 work involved varying schedules: some employees worked 2 weeks on/1 week off, others 3 days weekly, and some on-call
• Lazar was initially on sporadic on-call status and first saw the extraterrestrial UFO on March 22, 1989
• He commuted to the test site via Janet flights from McCarran Airport, going through EG&G Special Projects security before boarding
• The facility complex contained nine hangars situated on the side of a mountain, with long corridors of painted cinder block (light and dark green) leading to hangar access
• Lazar was escorted by Dennis Mariani (his supervisor/shadow) who trained him on a hand scanner that recorded every entry and exit through secure doors

The Craft and Propulsion System

Nine different craft were observed in the hangar, each with unique shapes but identical material composition and propulsion systems. The craft measured approximately 53 feet in diameter at the main level with no visible supporting column on the bottom level—a structural impossibility with any known Earth material.

• The craft is described as pewter/stainless steel in appearance and looks different up close than at a distance, appearing cartoonish when viewed from afar
• The craft hull material was claimed to be an electret—a material that permanently stores an electric field
• Three rectangular objects in the craft are amplifiers that work with the reactor to amplify gravity waves, channeling them to the emitter located directly beneath
• The craft has a black insulator ring at the top with small square/rectangular holes believed to be planar array sensors that determine position in space
• The craft's interior is narrow and uncomfortable; one must crawl in and cannot stand until reaching the center, making most of the space unusable
• Three cylindrical emitters at the base of the craft generate directed gravitational field alteration, causing the craft to fall into bent space rather than propel through it

Test Flights and Observed Phenomena

During a test flight, Dennis invited Barry and Lazar to observe as the craft lifted off silently with a corona discharge glow on the bottom. VHF radio communication was detected from the craft during the test flight, suggesting someone was operating it from inside. When Lazar walked underneath the stationary craft, it became completely invisible while the sky above it remained visible.

• The craft demonstrated inertialess movement, able to accelerate and change direction without apparent regard for conventional physics
• The Delta configuration uses all three amplifiers simultaneously to focus together on a destination, enabling instantaneous movement while the craft locks in space and time
• The Omicron configuration uses only one amplifier to create an indentation in space-time, resulting in unstable, undulating movement rather than linear travel
• The craft's jump cycle has a 10 millisecond recycle time between jumps
• Two college students filmed an orange, wobbling disc at Area 51 in 1995, capturing footage from in front of the facility fence at night
• The orange disc in the footage undulates and wobbles like a craft riding a wave, consistent with Omicron configuration described by Bob Lazar

Projects Galileo, Sidekick, and Looking Glass

Project Galileo focused on duplicating the craft's propulsion system using available Earth materials and understanding the given directives. Project Sidekick examined the weapon potential of the craft, specifically utilizing three bottom emitters (described as large trash cans) to create a particle-based directed energy weapon.

• Directive One was to duplicate the propulsion system or components using available Earth materials
• Directive Two prioritized remote disabling of the system at all costs
• Project Looking Glass was one of the three briefings Lazar reviewed alongside Galileo and Sidekick
• Barry explained that unique fabricated information was embedded in briefings to discredit anyone who leaked details
• Examples of fabricated information included claims about aliens making 65 human evolutionary corrections

The Reactor and Element 115

Investigators cut into a reactor from one of the craft while it was operating under load; it exploded and killed everyone present. The reactor contained a super heavy element identified as element 115 on the periodic chart. Barry and his lab partner theorized the reactor contained a cyclotron/particle accelerator where particles accelerated through an off-ramp tube interacted with element 115 to produce a gravitational field.

• Element 115 (Moscovium) was synthesized in Darmstadt, Germany in 2003—decades after Lazar claimed it was the fuel source for UFO propulsion in 1989
• The reactor had a removable hemisphere on top of a 15-inch square plate; when replaced with the emitter in the correct position, the reactor turned on immediately
• When the reactor was active, it produced a non-linear elastic force field that felt like pushing magnets together without metal—easy to push initially then impossible to move further
• Barry demonstrated the reactor's force field by throwing a golf ball at it; the ball bounced off and dislodged a ceiling tile, requiring urgent cleanup before Dennis Mariani returned
• When a lit candle was placed at the reactor's focal point and powered up, the flame stopped flickering and stood frozen in space and time
• Rotating the emitter created a dark region in the air where no light escaped, resembling a black hole

Dr. Charles Bueller's Anti-Gravity Experiments

Thomas Townsend Brown discovered that applying high voltage to asymmetric capacitors produces thrust without fuel, exhaust, or propellant—only electricity as input. Dr. Charles Bueller is NASA's lead electrostatic scientist and incoming president of the American Electrostatics Society. Dr. Bueller has taken Thomas Townsend Brown's experiments to the next level using modern instruments and rigorous controls.

• Over 2,000 experiments have been conducted in this research program
• Experiments are conducted in hard vacuum conditions reaching 10^-6 to 10^-7 Torr to eliminate ion wind effects
• Measured thrust ranges from hundreds of micronewtons to 50 millinewtons when stacking multiple thrusters
• Single thrusters achieve 1.5 millinewtons at 400 volts
• Unlike ion thrusters, this force generates thrust in the opposite direction of ion wind—pointing in the same direction as rocket exhaust
• Physical thrusters are approximately 6 by 6 inches in size; making them larger doesn't increase thrust density, but stacking multiple units increases total thrust
• In some cases there is no current flowing yet thrust persists—trapped charge alone is sufficient
• Experiments started at Townsend Brown's level of 150,000 volts but now operate at 400 volts
• Bob Lazar states he no longer thinks this is gravity because it doesn't behave like gravity—it appears to be a completely unique force without polarity

Physics Theory: Extended Heim Theory

Burkhard Heim was a German genius who became deaf and blind at age 19 due to an explosion, later worked at Lockheed Martin in the 1950s, and proposed a theory involving multiple gravitational components. Extended Heim Theory (EHT) adds two gravitational components (gravitophoton and quintessence) to the standard four forces, resulting in six fundamental forces.

• Gravitophoton (ggp) propagates dark energy and dark matter
• Quintessence (gq) represents a repulsive vacuum field force
• Theory proposes two types of gravity: Gravity A operates at subatomic/micro scale and is labeled as the strong nuclear force; Gravity B operates at cosmological/macro scale
• Standard gravity is described as a tensor summation of three gravitational components
• Dr. Ning Li developed gravitomagnetic theory at University of Alabama-Huntsville proposing that in superconductors, the gravitomagnetic effect could become coherent and directional
• Larry Smalley, chair of Ning Li's department, left his position to work with her full-time on the gravity engine concept
• Bismuth exhibits the strongest diamagnetism of any stable element and sits at the edge where relativistic electron behavior begins to dominate

Verification and Evidence

Luigi Venditelli used Google Earth's historical imagery to reveal unblurred 2022 satellite images of S4 showing visible vehicle tracks going in multiple directions. The US Department of the Interior modified geological maps of Groom Lake, Papoose Lake, and the Papoose Mountain Range on May 23, 1989, exactly eight days after Bob Lazar's first public video.

• The map modification specifically removed the road east of Papoose Lake (leading to S4) while keeping the road to the west intact, indicating deliberate concealment of S4's location
• Aerial photography taken approximately 17 miles from Papoose Lake, when contrast-enhanced, revealed slanted rectangular doors consistent with hangar structures
• Jeremy Corbell and Ross Coulthart found multiple witnesses who verified Bob Lazar's presence at Area 51 or S4
• George Knapp reported six people who were threatened and never went public
• Area 51 was not officially acknowledged by the US government until after Bob Lazar went public in 1989
• Bob Lazar went public anonymously on May 15, 1989, appearing as a silhouette named Dennis on a TV broadcast before revealing his identity later
• After going public, Lazar was never allowed back to S4 and began experiencing surveillance—cars parked outside his house, mysterious missing items, and car doors found open despite being locked

Bismuth as Key Material

Bismuth (element 83) appears across multiple research contexts: S4, Townsend Brown's experiments, Ning Li's gravitomagnetic theory, as ideal UFO hull material, and in UFO samples Gary Nolan analyzes at Stanford. Townsend Brown conducted anti-gravity experiments using high K-factor dielectric materials in capacitors, with Bismuth being one studied material.

• Bismuth titanate is one of the finest electric materials known, used in high-temperature sensor applications
• Element 115 would have dramatically stronger relativistic effects and is theorized to be an even more powerful topological dopant than bismuth
• Gary Nolan at Stanford has a magnesium-bismuth sample for analyzing alongside UFO samples and studying isotope ratios not found naturally
• The Roswell crash involved debris scattered across Mac Brazel's ranch and a separate pod with beings found approximately two miles away
• Nitinol (nickel-titanium memory metal) appeared in Navy labs in the 1960s despite no public knowledge following a 1949 contract between Battelle Memorial Institute and Wright-Patterson

Government Operations and Epstein Connections

The people involved appeared disconnected from regular government, operating as their own independent group or cabal. Jeffrey Epstein purchased property in New Mexico near Los Alamos to be close to retiring physicists and was obsessed with the Casimir effect, discussing physics with scientists.

• His New Mexico ranch was locally known as "Victoria's Secret ranch" due to his connection with Les Wexner
• Bill Richardson, aligned with the Clintons and Secretary of Energy, was allegedly involved in systematic siphoning of nuclear secrets
• The program reportedly moved out of Area 51 long ago, with ideal relocation target being Kwajalein Island in the South Pacific
• Congressman Tim Burchette from Tennessee states there are five hot spots in oceans around the world where UAP activity is concentrated
• The Navy retrieved the sports model craft from an underwater archaeological dig

John Lear's Background and Connections

John Lear, son of Learjet founder Bill Lear, was described as an accomplished pilot with multiple world records who flew L1011 aircraft and served as a CIA cargo pilot until 1983. Gene Huff, a real estate appraiser, met Lear when seeking a loan and later introduced Bob Lazar to him.

• Lear photographed F-117 aircraft and leaked details to George Knapp
• He reportedly contacted Admiral Mike McClellan (MJ-1, head of MJ-12) who allegedly wanted information released publicly
• Lear held extreme beliefs including that people live inside the sun and that the moon was constructed on Jupiter and towed into Earth's orbit
• Jacques Vallée wrote in 'Messengers of Deception' that Lazar seemed legitimate but noted memory lapses from a pine saw drink
• Using a Celestron 8-inch telescope focused for about 15 seconds, Lazar, Gene Huff, and John Lear observed the disc-shaped craft for seven to eight minutes on March 22, 1989

Physics Speculation and Ultra-Terrestrial Hypothesis

Bob Lazar disputes whether the craft are extraterrestrials, time travelers, dimensional visitors, or future humans, stating there is no evidence pointing in any specific direction. The ultra terrestrial hypothesis proposes these craft are ancient remnants of an anti-Deluvian civilization that existed pre-Ice Age or pre-Younger Dryas, possibly related to Atlantis.

• Bob Lazar initially believed the craft was a new classified fighter jet, but realized within days it was something unknown
• The craft performed physically impossible feats with power density no country could achieve
• Lazar states anti-gravity may not allow for anti-gravity applications, as the force appears to be completely unique without polarity

Full Transcript

Show transcript

Gary and Mary Ruth, we've been working on this story for a long time, and we'll tell you right
up front that it's going to be hard to swallow at first.
In 1989, a soft-spoken scientist in Nevada went on local television and said something
that would baffle the world for the next three decades.
He said that he had worked at a secret government facility called S-4, just south of Area 51
in the Nevada desert, where his job, his actual
job was to reverse engineer the propulsion system of a craft, a craft that was not made by human
hands, a flying saucer 53 feet in diameter, no seams, rivets, panels, buttons, wiring, or controls.
Ladies and gentlemen, today's guest is the white whale of American alchemy guests,
the enigmatic and ever-elusive Bob Lazar.
Robert Lazar.
Bob Lazar.
Lazar.
Bob Lazar
That Lazar dude freaked me to f*** out, man.
He's a freak out.
Bob is basically a walking paradox, a human head spinner.
He almost feels like an optical illusion of a person.
Back then, Area 51 meant nothing.
We've now heard a former director of national intelligence,
who oversaw all American intelligence agencies
openly discuss a UFO tracking program housed
at Area 51 specifically.
We've also seen past directors of the CIA, congressmen and women, and whistleblowers
across agencies endorsing the existence of a decades-long, multi-generational UFO crash
retrieval and reverse engineering program.
But Bob is an anomaly.
He's on an island.
He's still the only person to have gone public claiming he worked directly on a craft
of non-human world.
origin. We've speculated about his story for years. Today we get to talk to him directly.
They really wanted to see if they could affect the flow of time.
Did they have a stated purpose for...
No.
No.
In this interview, we get to ask him our most skeptical questions about his background,
his education, his past, how he knows what he knows and why he hasn't been forced into
silence.
John Lear was super into UFOs before you got the job.
Why do you think it didn't come up in a background check?
There are a lot of people out there who say you faked your educational credentials.
Did you ever wonder why they didn't
you as a liability.
But we also ask our most awe-inspiring questions.
We learn new details about where the craft he worked on was actually retrieved.
We discuss the beings that may have occupied it,
where they come from, and what they want with humanity.
We even learn about Bob's current home laboratory experiments.
He's still investigating the gravity-altering force he encountered
while working on a flying saucer in the 80s.
me right. Bob is currently working on exotic UFO science in his personal lab. How did the reactor
work? Through x-rays, we were able to determine that there's a hollow tube. But this interview
gets even crazier than that. I surprised Bob with a scientist at NASA who's doing his own
experiments on anti-gravity. What kind of voltage are you using? Right now, about 400 volts.
That's unbelievable.
I also.
had the honor of showing Bob legendary, never-before-seen footage of a UFO at Area 51.
People have been trying to get their hands on this specific footage for years.
Ready?
Yeah.
I'm going to the beginning.
Here we go.
Holy moly.
Oh, shit.
This interview spans multiple days with both Bob and filmmaker Luigi Venditelli, the maker
of S4, the Bob Lazar story.
spent four years working closely with Bob to depict exactly what he saw and worked on at S4,
in vivid, hyper-realistic detail. We really, really paid attention to what Bob said
throughout the entire time, so we didn't invent anything.
Without further ado, please welcome this week's American Alchemist,
the man who helped reverse engineer a UFO, went public, and lived to tell the tale. The
The original.
UFO whistleblower, Bob Lazar.
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Bob Lazar, I don't even know what to say.
day for me this is an absolute honor i'm so grateful for you uh being here i have so many
questions for you because uh there are a lot of people who say they've seen things in the sky
or they've had ephemeral experiences sometimes even with beings there are very few people who
have consistently held to the exact same story over the last almost four decades now and it involves
four decades now and it involves working on a craft and essentially reverse engineering or
parallel process engineering what is a craft of non-human origin an exotic craft and so you are
really one of one and uh i can't wait to dive in and i just want to think before we start
uh luigi vendettali who is the amazing creator of this movie that you are in
that there is life elsewhere and at least one form of that life has been here
i want to start with your childhood and uh what was little bob lazar like
i guess he was like a little scientist i mean uh i wasn't into sports at all uh still aren't um
instead of playing with toys i take apart clocks and things like that that my parents had and
you know put them back together i was just very inquisitive were you
you a rule breaker at all?
Yeah, for the most part.
I really had a problem with authority.
So I really didn't, didn't matter if it was my parents or teachers, whatever
telling me what to do.
I said, I just don't recognize your authority to tell me that I can't do what I'm doing.
And, um, yeah, that's, that just seems to be part of my DNA.
Yeah.
It seems to me a running theme in your life.
So the authority felt sort of arbitrary to you.
It's like, why are you in a position to have any power?
Right, right, right.
You're not even, you really don't even understand what I'm up to.
And, you know, you're already trying to put the gabash on it here.
So, um, no, go, go away and leave me alone.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Did you have any interest in UFOs, aliens, anything like that as a kid?
No, no.
I thought that was all silly.
Yeah.
Now, I was always into science and science fiction.
When I was a little kid, I watched, I think like five and six.
I watched that, uh, oh, the super marination.
series like Fireball XL5 and Thunderbirds and, you know, they were all like marionette shows,
but they're all space and cool and rockets and you know that, oh, this is all great.
Yeah.
You know, that's what.
And then later on, you don't know, Star Trek, science fiction, because it always looked like
that it was just a prediction of the future to me.
It didn't look like it was stuff that was never going to come true.
It just looked like eventually the stuff's going to happen.
And for the most part, science fiction turns into science given enough time.
Become science fact.
Yeah.
Were there any inspirations sci-fi-wise that you felt had like a real impact on you as far as you're, you know, what you were interested in as a kid?
You know, everybody my age, a boomer that's an engineer, doctor, scientist, whatever, they'll always point back to Star Trek and always give that a nod because that was.
So that was probably the biggest thing back then.
in the 60s and 70s.
Yep. And so where'd you grow up?
Well, I was born in Florida, but most of my growing up, you know,
I was cognizant of what was going on.
It was Long Island, New York, yeah.
Interesting.
You ended up at Pierce, is that right?
Or what was the kind of progression from childhood?
I just moved around.
Okay.
You know, it depends where I was at the time when I went to California
and, you now on the East Coast.
So, yep.
It was, it was just location dependent, you know, as, like I mentioned the other day, I moved so much.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It was almost like a military family.
Yeah.
Was it, was it because your dad had jobs that he was switching around or what was going on?
I really don't know what it was, but we just, we were just always moving.
Yeah.
Interesting.
And, you now always have to make new friends and, and whatnot.
But I don't, yeah.
It was just the way it was.
My father always did some weird things that strained things up his sleeve.
So I don't know what was going on.
Yeah, I think there was some potentially shady stuff going on in the background.
Interesting.
Okay.
What did he do professionally, just like surface level?
He had, I know he had some connection to the mob at some point.
I mean, he had like a food business, wholesale food business that distributed food
to grocery stores, you know, all over the place, but there was, and it had big connection to race
horses. I mean, I remember when I was a little kid of the, uh, what do they call it? Harness racing.
You know, where they sit in the little silky behind the horse, little two-wheeled contraption.
Um, you now I remember those guys, um, the jockeys, riders, whatever you want to call them.
But I remember, you know, playing in the living room and hearing those guys deciding who's going to win the race and things of that sort.
So, I mean, I knew that there were some shady things going on.
And yeah, whenever you have racehorses and tracks, there's often some money laundering.
Yeah, especially back down in the, you knows, early 70s and stuff.
It couldn't be more corrupt.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Interesting.
Okay.
And so he was involved in that, but maybe there was some other.
stuff kind of going on in the in the background yeah and nothing where people are hurt or anything
like that you know not not mob stuff but uh yeah yeah but you know i mean just some questionable
things yeah yeah never talked about yeah so i mean we did we did move around a lot but um
spent most of the time either in well depend really depends what year you know
i was somewhere and were you into nuclear science as a kid as well
or just kind of like no just science I mean okay my friends were I had a friend
whose dad was a chemistry professor so you know we'd go and hang out with him and
bring home chemicals and you know play with him but it was yeah from as young as
I could possibly be was always tinkering around with something science related
yeah so at school what was that like you're this rebellious kid you're into
science, did you
hate school because he saw it's just interfering with my time I want to get
home and get back to tinkering with my stuff you know I don't you know you
couldn't bore me any more than I was I didn't want to go to a music class I
don't care what they're doing here and on you know everything a social studies I
don't carry who won what war just let me go home yeah you know
I've got other things I'd rather learn but you know the classes that I was in
Um, that matched my interest.
I did well.
But everything else is a waste of my time.
What were you tinkering with at home?
Probably at that time, probably electronics and chemistry.
Okay.
And then how did you get the job at Los Alamos?
At the time, I was working at Fairchild Electronics in Simi Valley, California.
And I was just tired and burnt out of that.
And just sent a resume to Los Alamo.
on the stuff not my work history things that i did aside from work i took my wife's little honda
built a jet engine from scratch and put it in there then in fact that was one of the things
i you know sent in a resume to him oh by the way i built this car and uh yeah when i moved there
the local paper put that on the front page because they thought that was really cool and
That's why most people remember me at that time because I drove it to work at Los Alamos.
Yeah.
And in fact, they yelled at me for, you can't run the jet coming into the lab because it
scares the shit out of everybody.
How fast would the car go?
212.
Jesus.
Yeah, yeah.
On that car, it's super dangerous.
I would never do that.
That's insane.
Yeah.
But.
So you're putting like a Bugatti engine on a Honda Civic and you're like, yeah, in a way.
Yeah.
Unbelievable.
Yeah, it silly.
But you're just stupider when you're in your car.
20s yeah well what was your top speed 212 yours was 212 yeah you went to elm iraq dry lake in
california you're insane it may be but that's how fast the car went but the honda civic is not set
up for the the jet engine that you put on it like well it was after i put it in there oh so you
helped with the suspension yeah that stuff you improved wow yeah that's impressive man that's cool
Well, while working at Los Alamos National Lab in 1982, the local newspaper did a front-page
story on a jet car I had built.
Coincidentally, Dr. Edward Teller was giving a speech at Las Alamos that same day.
So Edward Tellor, for the audience, was the creator of the hydrogen bomb.
Well, coincidentally, that same on the paper, if you turn over the front sheet,
was the advertisement for Ed Teller coming the next day.
day giving a lecture you know at the lab so so we go you go to a like a talk he
gives or something yeah he was about to give a talk I got there early he's
sitting outside reading the paper because the door was locked uh-huh so that's I
wanted to go super early too because I thought maybe it's gonna be crowded or
whatever he's reading the front
He's reading the front page of the paper because, or else, I really didn't know how to go out and say anything, but I went, oh, it's the perfect segue.
He's already reading about me. So I was like, I, Ed, I'm the guy you're reading about there.
What was Edward Teller like?
He's a grumpy old man.
It's the only way I could describe him.
Did he have any sort of distinct accent?
Of course he has a distinct accent.
Ed Teller, yeah.
Ed Teller.
Yeah, a bit thick, Hungarian.
Eyebrows and yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, he looked exactly like himself.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Fascinating.
And so what was the conversation like?
Are you like, hey, that, you know, that's me.
And then what did he what he said?
Ah, he said, well that's that's fascinating.
But you know I can't remember it verbatim.
But he said.
But it is grossly impractical.
I said, I said yeah, it's not made to be a practical
you know mode of transportation.
And then we only spoke for a short time and then
you can hear the door on click swing open and a guy greeted him oh Mr. Teller and so they brought
him in and you know that was that but as time went on I made reference to that meeting when I sent
him a resume after I had moved on from Los Alamos and he remembered me and that's who directed me
to EG&G how this all started to go to S4.
Have you ever seen there's a video
of Edward Teller being questioned on his relationship with you.
Yeah, yeah, it's really funny.
Because he, first of all, he goes into,
he's been questioned on nuclear propulsion
and he like doesn't want to get into it.
It's very clear.
And then he's questioned on you
and he has the exact same reaction.
It is, in my opinion, not interesting.
I don't intend to answer it.
If you ask me that question on camera,
I will shut up, I will sit silent.
If you get an answer, I'll be on that.
Okay.
And if I ask you on camera, if you know Bob Lazar, can you just say no?
I will sit silently.
I mean, I spoke to the guy before he went and interviewed Teller.
He was one of Teller's students.
And he said, you know, I'm going to bring up you to Teller, and I went.
you know, I'm going to bring up you to tell her.
And I went, that would be awesome.
Yeah.
And it'd be awesome to see how fast he denies me.
Yeah.
You know, and he did immediately.
But he denied you in the same way.
First he goes, yeah, technically you could get, you know
a real power source from nuclear.
And basically implying he knows a lot about it,
but he's not going to talk about it.
Yeah, I think he said, is there anything
other than fish and refusion?
He goes, no, nothing that anybody interested about.
you
Yeah, but there's total annihilation, you know, and, and yeah, he just completely discounted that, which is interesting for Teller.
Do you think that he's talking about, because you talk about this 115, you had a proton.
I don't know if that's what he was referring to.
It goes up to 116, and then you get this matter, anti-matter annihilation thing.
I don'T.
I don's not what he's referring to, but he's also.
But he's clearly not addressing the most powerful nuclear reaction there is, and why would he do that?
And he's clearly also denied
the nuclear knowledge in the same way that he's denying his link to you yeah which to me is such
a tell that he obviously met you yeah that it's really weird that he would do that and so you were
you were at Los Alamos and and um were you working with other physicists at the time or what was
your main kind of like day-to-day responsibility there well it it changed um I did some I was
Uh, this was for the particle accelerator.
They wanted to be able to trim the voltage to a, a very fine degree.
So I was building some high voltage power supplies, stuff that's insulated by fiber
optics, so you can make adjustments, you know, from a distance without interfering
with the electric fields or anything.
Um, and day to day, there was just maintenance on the targets and experiments we
were doing so it
It's cryogenics and, you know, dealing with high power magnets.
And I mean, what else?
Radioactive materials.
Yeah.
Um, you
know, Los Alamos stuff.
Yeah.
I mean I'm just trying to remember what I did every day, but it was, uh,
that's, it was there was no really regular routine.
You know, we'd either be working on getting ready to do an experiment.
So we'd be working, you
know the detection of
equipment, or setting up the experiment. And it all had to do with, you know, the output
of the accelerator and adjusting that.
So this was a particle accelerator?
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, interesting.
Yeah, it's a half mile long linear accelerator in Los Alamos.
Oh, cool.
And the beam splits off. It comes down and it splits off into different experimental
So you can conduct a whole bunch of different experiments,
you know, just from one beam.
And they can put different things in the targets
to make different particles and go different directions.
And depending on the speed of the particle going by
and its spin and how long it's in transit,
you can calculate its mass and, you know.
Backtrack and then put things together.
And, an analogy I always gave was,
it's like if you wanted to analyze a Swiss watch,
Swiss watch.
but you really couldn't look inside.
But so you could take it and throw it as hard as you can at a concrete wall.
Yeah.
And then it busts apart and all the pieces go flying off.
Yeah.
Well, by looking at those pieces, you could backtrack everything.
Yeah.
You could see if one was spinning a certain direction and you know the
rotation and the, how fast it came off, then you know, the mass of it.
If it was turning before and by the angles, you can put it back there and
reassemble the thing and see how it was made just from the particles flying apart.
So essentially what an accelerator does is smash something apart and then we can
figure out how it all goes together just by monitoring those particles.
It's so cool.
Yeah.
So I mean, that's, that that's what I did at Los Alamos.
Did you, did you get the sense that there were two branches of science, science
that was a little more classified and then public science?
No, not at that.
Not at that point.
Not at the point.
it out.
We're all on the same level.
Yeah.
Now, I know you can't say why they erased you from MIT.
And there are a lot of people out there who say you faked your educational credentials.
You have very good, I think, reason that at least passes, you know, Joe Rogan and some
other people who I really trust, their sniff test.
He said that he was working on something for the government and they sent him to MIT
learn something.
But I will ask you, is there anything you can say high level that hints at why you
can't talk about why you're at MIT?
Well, I was sent there.
Okay.
And if you're sent like there for a specific reason, maybe to do some classified research
or work.
Yep.
It's going to be off the books.
Yeah.
I mean, but
But it's also, you also can't talk about it because it's still, I mean, look, the government's
never going to come and prosecute me for, at least I hope not, for releasing information
about S4.
Yep.
But assuming I was working on a weapon system, that's always, that still covered under
the security agreement.
And at this point in my life, I just don't want to make any waves.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So no, I think that's very reasonable.
It's also, I should note, and this is me talking and not you, MIT long is a university, you know, affiliated research center.
It's called a UARC, and they do all sorts of classified stuff.
You know, they have a super soldier program.
They're, we're always at the forefront of nanotechnology.
And so the idea that...
Well, anything I would have potentially been working on wouldn't be so outlandish as super soldiers or it'd be just very conventional.
Sure.
Um,
You know, but still classified material.
Yeah.
Touching stuff.
I think it's just helpful because this stuff is circulating out there.
And you know, the idea that you would get sent to that school specifically.
get sent to that school specifically and work on something that you can't talk about is very
feasible.
But if I would have gotten sent.
Theoretically.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You got sent there.
Yeah.
There's a very clear possibility I wouldn't be able to talk about it.
And I'd be working on some classified stuff.
If you wanted to hire a guy who could think clearly out of the box and help solve problems,
but who could be discredited if you needed to do that.
you
was probably the best person in the country at the time.
He was perfect for it.
George Knapp was originally this very instrumental part
of breaking your story in 1989 as part of KLAS.
Did you, you took him to Los Alamos,
is that right at some point?
Yeah, I told him all this Los Alamo stuff
and I said, well, let's go there, I'll show you.
And security was a little more lax back then.
Uh, so we got in a plane and, uh, you just rented a car and, you know, at that time,
everyone I knew still worked there.
So including the guards, we're going to, Hey Bill, Bob, you're back.
You know, and so we're in and uh, You know just took charge everywhere.
There's my desk.
Here's this and you know walking here.
And I still knew combinations to places why.
I'm sure it was not all 100% legal, but yeah, George just walked around
everything spoke to people that I worked with and he said all right we can check
that box off and then we went back yeah and so because I also you know again I
want to address some of these like detracting comments circulating online
like detracting comments circulating online there are people who are like oh he just quizzed the
physicists you know at los alamos but he really had some other job there or something first of all
like your your uh description of a particle accelerator and and how to actually you know
detect subatomic particles i think was you know first class and then second you have a guy in
george nap which you are you have to either um accuse him of some sort of collusion or something
and his orientation towards you
Or admit that you showed him around, people knew your name.
You know, he saw it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And clearly he was trying to suss you out by asking you to invite him.
Right.
Presumably.
Yeah.
I just don't pay attention to the detractors and the nonsense.
I mean, to me, we're past that.
We're past that.
Now, I never met Dr. Teller again, but in 1988, when I decided to reenter the scientific
community, I sent him a resume and inquired about a job.
Dr. Tiller responded by telephone and told me that he was no longer active, but just
functioned in a chief consultant capacity.
He gave me the name of a contact to call in Las Vegas.
I made that call and things progressed from there until I got into the program at S4.
And so you send him the resume and he remembers you.
somehow and which yeah because I made mention of the jet car in Los Alamos yeah and then and then
he sends your resume to EG and G and then you get a job there I don't I Don't know if he sent it
he uh when he did reply to me he he gave me information contact information for EG
and G so I don t know if you he said or just have a look at this young man or something like that
or the or if he did send the resumes I I don' know what happened behind the scenes did you know
about EG.
at the time or I know they did measurements they did all the I mean those
are the guys that came out and figured how to you know photograph a you know an
exploding nuclear bomb without it getting overexposed they did
all kinds of things make giant flash tubes so you can photograph cities from
bombers and and stuff so that's about all I know I knew they were just you know
weird stuff for the government, but, you know, leaning heavily in the nuclear testing area.
It's a company that is the namesake of Doc Edgerton, who was MIT faculty, actually.
And Edgleton, Grimmerhausen, and Greer. There you go.
Many types of cameras will be in use. The most important are fast tags, which operate up to
9,000 frames per second and expose their entire footage in a fraction of a second.
you're really into nuclear and then you worked on UFOs there's this amazing book
that I always cite that I'm sure you're aware of Luigi called UFOs and nukes by
a friend of mine named Robert Hastings and he talks about UFOs
named Robert Hastings and he talks about UFOs like tic-tac saucers orbs all these different shapes
and sizes of UFOs showing up at nuclear bases all across the US I certainly heard that isn't that
interesting there and there are 167 whistleblowers who are on what's called the PRP program where
they have to report if they're taking ibuprofen because they're guarding the crown jewels of American
defense oh really 167 of these guys wow yeah there's really a hundred and sixty seven of those
guys.
167 of these guys. It's really wild. And they have T. Yeah, that's that's incredible. I mean, that should be investigated further. And I I'm sure it is, but not publicly, but they're I mean you're talking about nuclear sites. If you're
talking about
nuclear sites, you are at the very core of national security.
So my point is, is if you're doing the photography of that early on, you've got to have some asymmetric knowledge of UFO stuff. That would be my guess.
Yeah, they were the guys documenting and photographing everything from every angle from everywhere.
Yes.
So if in fact all that stuff was going on, EG&G had to catch something.
Totally.
And EG and G, it keeps coming up for me too in my own investigations.
Even there's this thing called the, you know, the Wilson Davis memo where the scientist who actually lives in Austin, his name is Eric Davis meets with the head of J2 Joint Chiefs.
who under whose purview is all military technology a guy named admiral thomas wilson
and they're in the parking lot of eg and thomas willson is like furious that he doesn't have
oversight over this specific corporate program which seems to be reverse engineering exotic
ufo material so you get a job at eg and uh what's your first touch point there and and so you
have a little bit of context but yeah i originally went in there i i didn't know what the
the job was that they interviewed me for that.
And somewhere in the middle of it, they said, you know, we actually have a
different job that we're thinking of plugging you into now.
I think I went to the bathroom and when I came back, they
said, we're changing channels.
We think we have, and I think, so I don't know if they were both
something at S4 or, uh, something else is going to be for EG and G or the
Department of Naval Intelligence and the
And they thought maybe S4 would be a, you know, a better fit.
I don't know what, again, what went on behind the scenes, but there were two jobs there.
And they decided I'd be better off with the second one.
The second one was S4 out at the Papoose Lake area.
And what were they screening for?
Like, what do you think they were asking you and trying to get at?
And then when you go to the bathroom, why do they just shift?
And they say, this guy is actually going to, that UFO.
thing we're stuck on this guy's gonna break it wide open he could be a good hire
there I don't think that's what they said but I think they were stuck and I think
they they were they kept be you know just because of the way the place is
arranged they kept trying to attack the problem from the same direction all
the time you know which is only gonna yield the same result in fact if you
expect it anything else, you're nuts.
You know, it's the definition of crazy, right?
Doing the same thing and expecting different results.
But yeah, most of their questions was not about my technical knowledge or work
experience.
It was what I did after work.
And, you know, like the projects I built, why did you do that?
And I think they were just looking at trying to find somebody that was
outside of the box yeah and i think that's where i fit because before that you had really straight
lace scientists physicists technicians you know that abided by the rules and all that and they
look we need a little push from another direction and i mean it's my guess i think
that's why they popped me in there at that point do you have any idea what you're getting yourself
into no no but you know they said it's at a remote area and the work hours can vary some people
are out there for two
weeks on one week off yeah um some people and you know it depends if they're married or not or
anything and you can spend that much time out there some people only go out three days a week and
you know so and some people are just on call and you now for the time being it would probably just
probably need you sporadically going out there on call on you know till we get you up to speed and
do you have any problem with traveling I said no no no you know. So I thought wow if it's out in the
I thought it was the only thing I knew about the desert was at that time, it's a nuclear test site.
So I thought I thought, it was weapons related and, you know, specifically nuclear weapon related.
And I was going to be at, uh, yeah, the nuclear test.
going to be at the nuclear test site at somewhere, you know, station near Mercury.
The way it worked was they'd call me at random days and they'd say, Mr. Lazard is now such
and such time. We need you to come out today.
So I'd go out there. I'd drive out to EG&G Special Projects, which was right in McCarran
Airport at that time. I go through a little security there and then out on the tarp.
and board one of the Janet flights.
They were only used by the government
for going back and forth to the test site.
Line 363, Las Vegas Tower,
runway 263, line up away, traffic downfield.
Yeah, we just took off and landed.
Yeah. And I still thought I was at the,
you know, I didn't know it, I was Area 51.
Yep. And you,
51 yep and you land at area 51 yeah and first of all at that time area 51 meant nothing it's just
this is known as area 51 okay as all the all the you know the test sites split up into areas it's
area two area five so it's 51 okay at what point uh do you go to ask for you know these i've
told the story so much and it's been so long all the days kind of mix and infuse
And
to one now. So I can't separate what you did on that day. What'd you do on the third day?
I don't know. You know, it's just, um, of course, but I don' think we drove down on the first day.
I think it was just a paperwork and stuff day. Uh, but the second day for sure, we drove
down, got in the bus and it was a long bumpy ride. Um, and the windows were blacked out on the
And it was just a navy blue painted bus and it seemed like we went south.
by the time we got there got off the bus I mean the Sun was setting to my right
and then what happens next well I mean when you mean when I got there yeah yeah
I mean that's where we Dennis led me in mm-hmm and he's Dennis for the audience
I guess you can call him my supervisor but he was kind of my shadow and everything
he was just attached to me this is Dennis Mariani Dennis Mariana yeah
And so he leads you in.
Yeah, he leads me in.
There's a guard there.
We get past him.
And then they had to train the hand reader to give me a card to open the doors.
So that's the first time I saw that hand scanner.
I get the card.
He shows me this.
You swipe on the door and it records every time you come in and out and do everything.
And once you open that door, like a...
No, no.
Once you're in the room with the scanner, there's nothing.
There's just the door you open up, but it's just a really long, really long corridor.
And just kind of, it's not modern, looks old.
It's just painted cinder block with light green and dark green.
Kind of looked at my old kindergarten or something.
It's this vast expanse and is all of it underground or in a mountain or?
It's kind of on the side of a mountain.
Okay.
You know, so the hangers are right on the site or it's a hill, I guess,
whatever you want to describe it.
Sure.
So the hangars are there and then the corridor is in back of the hangers.
So that gives you hangar access and there were nine hangars.
So, um, and they're fairly big.
So that explains why the corridors were so long.
And so you're in there, you see this vast expanse.
Then what happens?
We went to review the briefings first.
So that was off to the right.
We came in, there was a desk there had, somebody had
already laid out all the uh the briefings which were summaries of the projects going on so
they didn't go in depth but in case your project connected to some of these in some way you
had to have a brief overview of what else was going on project galileo was the first uh you know
the first briefing on there and that was your project yeah and then but you had other briefings
as well yeah yeah and and and that was project looking glass looking glass and
And what else?
Sidekick.
And sidekick.
Okay.
Yeah.
And so I imagine you take most interest in Galileo, but you also look through looking
glass and sidekick, is that right?
But Galileo dealt with the propulsion system of the craft and the directives that are
given.
There were two primary directives is one to duplicate the propulsion
system or components thereof with available materials.
Available earth materials, it said.
Um, and directive two was to be able to remotely, um, disable the operation
of the system, uh, and some, I don't know how it was worded.
Somewhere the word at all costs was in there.
So, um.
That was really a high priority, but they wanted to, uh.
They certainly wanted to duplicate it, but
they really wanted to disable it.
I do think that's an important distinction.
in the mandate of the program it's to not necessarily reverse engineer but to
parallel engineer find ways to with terrestrial yeah normal prosaic
engineering build yeah or come up with a hybrid system something yeah I mean
the bottom line is we want to produce the effects this machine is having so just
do it in any yeah however however you can just yeah just do it
which makes sense given the skill set they seem to take interest in with you because you are this
outside of the box thinker yeah you're not this prim and proper traditional academic or something
who does not want to break rules who might be extremely high iq but uh isn't necessarily
rebellious in the way they think they think within these sort of narrow confines they're given
yeah they were they were just looking to come at another angle and maybe we can
you know uncover something and and just for the audience what is sidekick and what is project
looking glass sidekick was the weapon potential of the craft the craft if you're familiar with it
has three of the uh emitters on the bottom look like large trash cans and they send out the
gravity waves or whatever form of energy is but excuse me sidekick dealt with using those to
to stop it from diverging so there was it it appeared to be there there was some
sort of weapon potential of doing that like a directed energy yeah weapon yeah
I think it was a particle weapon so I don't know where what the source was
but that's that's just what the briefing contained in it and are you given any
other context before reading these documents no and when you're reading
these documents, what
what's going through your no it's i mean some of the stuff in there was just nonsense i mean and
you wonder like what like a test um you know there are stuff like you know the aliens had made
65 corrections to you know in the evolution of humans and things and as barry explained to me
he said look they keep everything classified here but if somebody says something
you know, and they hear it on the grapevine, they said, yeah, they've got a disc, an alien
craft at, you know down at the test site. They don't know where it comes from, but everybody
that they give briefings or information to, they put unique nonsense information there.
So like if I had said anything, they, do you know it said yeah, there's flying saucers
down there and aliens made 65 corrections. They go Lazar's the guy that, yep, that. So that's,
I think they put it in there to attack.
to a person you know he got this and they make it something enticing to say so you go through
these briefings what happens next at some point I went to the nurse who um it was the only female
that was there uh she she said you know we have to do an allergen test and I guess they had a
bunch of samples from different materials they do a little grid on my arm and then just pricked
reaction. They gave me something to drink, which is supposedly supposed to boost my immune system.
It was a deep orange-yellow color, and I think that was because the vitamin B was in there,
and I can taste that because it's really a nasty taste. What did it taste like?
Yeah, like a vitamin B solution. Okay. But it also had a pine taste to it. But anyway,
that was that. I wasn't allergic to anything, as it turned out. And eventually,
get it go in and was introduced to Barry who's going to be my lab partner and you know from what I
understand I was replacing somebody that he worked with hmm what was Barry like Barry I don't know
how would you describe Barry Barry was very enthusiastic yeah he was really happy I was there
and really excited to show me stuff but clearly a lot had been done before I got there
if this was new everything would be white right everybody would be in you know I
mean you always want labs and everything white in case you see a little speck
of dust or a part falls somewhere you can identify them you wouldn't have you
know wooden lamp or lab benches and things like that you'd probably have
people in full respirator suits if they're just beginning but these guys had
reached a point where it was nonchalant where they were they were
touching you know working with this stuff and um you know it really wasn't a thing is they were
taking apart a car engine so um they had made a lot of progress and they weren't afraid of what
they were working with although we were plenty afraid of the uh reactor and and you at no point
were you like this could be some like you know anti-gravity secret program that you know i just
wasn't cleared to no okay i mean initially when i first
saw it, I went, oh, that's what this whole thing's about, you know, it's it's just,
it's, just our new fighter and it looks like a flying saucer.
So that's why people believe in flying saucers because they see these new
fighters flying around and you know.
But, um, yeah, it became quickly obvious that that wasn't the case.
Like we have no idea how the thing works.
It does stuff that's physically impossible.
And there's no country in the world could make something like that or have
the power density that it has. It's inconceivable. So to, you know, to, to affect space and time,
look if another country was able to build something like that, the United States wouldn't exist,
you know. To anybody who, who's a detractor, who doesn't, who could think maybe this was a US
object, something manmade or something that they put there as a prop. Some people would say,
Lazar or other people and all that there's because I built it there's one physical aspect of it
that is impossible to build period a hundred percent not possible is it's as far as if we have to
consider it being a 52 almost 53 foot diameter craft the main level which is the level that Bob
was able to access and and at one point stand up in the middle of that main level
is in the center of the disc and there is nothing that was visually witnessed on the bottom level
when he peaked that is a supporting column holding that 53 foot diameter floor we have nothing
on earth yeah there is no material you know that's i that's the first i've ever heard of that angle
that's that's really interesting that's right because i built it yeah i i think
You know more about the craft at this point.
Because of the thickness of the floor that we could see because of the lip of the access way, we could
see the thickness.
Of the floor, also where the honeycomb hatchway is, you could see the thickness of
the floor.
That thickness.
Yeah, 52 feet diameter.
There is nothing on earth that would not be doing boring like this and maybe and potentially
collapse.
There's nothing.
We have nothing.
that's that's a completely unique structural anomaly yeah good job luigi yeah right yeah no
i never never even entertained that that's fascinating yeah that's great but that's
that's 100 true yeah there's nothing that can do that yeah it's so interesting
what is the color of the craft itself it's kind of a pewter stainless looking but
Mm-hmm.
It's, Luigi and I were talking about this the other day.
It, it looks different close up than it does far away.
Describe, well, how so?
I, geez, I wish I could.
I've tried to describe this a lot.
And what's interesting is that I, my friend Jean Huff, who was my kind of
confidant at the time, and, you know, I tell him about this stuff.
And I said, you know, one of the weirdest things is if you're close to it,
you know what, it, it looks like the craft.
And it, and when you get far away, it doesn't look right.
It looks more like a cartoon.
And, um, so Luigi spending two and a half or three years modeling this and
getting it and sure as hell, whatever they did, uh, Luigi, you'll probably best
tell you about that.
Um,
when they take the camera and they put it in the hangar and look at it close up it looks like it
should and if they back it off it doesn't look the same it looks so they were able to whether
intentionally or accidentally kind of duplicate it i mean they've got the model so close that it
has it it's taken on some of the characteristics of the actual craft and there's a part of the
craft that you describe as blacker than black is that right yeah what is that yeah you know what
holes around the top, which are, I do not believe are port holes.
You know, and I think there's a, a black ring that goes around the
top part of the craft and that's, we call that the insulator ring, um, above
that I have no idea what's in that top section, but that's where these small
square slash rectangular holes are around.
They are assumed to be like some sort of planar array where there is some,
something similar to a computer in the top section and those arrays determine whether it's looking at
starlight or whatever it determines its place in space but they they don't look black they look so
black and it's not just vanta black at all they almost look like bottomless pits in there but
But I know they're solid.
I mean, Barry told me they are solid.
I guess I don't know.
Barry claimed they're solid, so to be technical, I don' know for a fact.
I mean, but I still think there's some kind of sensors, but that is some unusual material.
And when you go in there and look at the craft, it's a real ominous, creepy feeling.
And a lot of it is because of the black.
Just it doesn't look right.
Did anybody else say that going into the craft gave them an ominous feeling?
Yeah.
Yeah, he did say it was, it was definitely unnerving, I think was his word, looking at those.
And, and just being in the craft generally, was that like a kind of ubiquitously known thing at S4?
Like you walked into that thing?
I didn't hear that from anybody, but it certainly was for me.
Interesting.
Yeah.
Because the first thing you think, boy, that must have been so exciting.
And yeah, from a outsider, it might be, but no, when you're really there, it wasn't exciting.
It was,
it was really frightening.
And you walked around the, what looked like the cockpit of this thing?
First of all, you can't just walk in.
It's much smaller and narrower than you think.
You have to crawl in and you really can't stand up until you're almost right in the center.
So it doesn't have really, it's really all unusable space.
Even if you're a small creature, there's a lot of unusable spaces in there.
And, you know, because everything seemed to have a critical function.
to it. I'm sure there was nothing for decoration. There's a reason to have all that space and the
reason the craft is shaped like that. But there were three things that look like seats.
We call them seats, other humps, large rectangular smooth objects in there. There were three of
those. We know those to be the amplifiers. They work with the with the reactor. It amplifies
the gravity wave and it's, you know, channeled to the emitter, which is right under the amplifiers.
Again, we just called the seats because they look like seats. It would be, I think it would be funny
if it turned out that they were not seats at all. Yet another component we just knew nothing about.
Bob always found it to be really weird that when the wave guide is applied right on top of the
looking out. There's a, there's a one of the archways that become transparent. So they,
he believes that maybe that is where they're looking. But this guy here is staring at a pipe.
Oh, the, the archway becoming transparent is so they can see. Yeah. Oh, it's so interesting.
I never like made that connection. Yeah, they're
looking at it. Oh. And there's the screen that appears the blue screen with a symbol with
the like Korean language. Exactly. And then I, I've always thought and I thought maybe
they all become transparent maybe the whole arch like the whole all the archways can become
transparent what why why would it only be one because so dark in there fascinating and you saw
a translucent like almost korean looking symbols is that right yeah i saw the wall become
translucent and at some point saw some kind of what i would call symbols but not on a in a three-dimensional
way not on a flat screen or anything like that yeah explain how you saw it because
you were explaining it to me yes yeah it wasn't like it was a screen it was just
like a three-dimensional character sitting almost like a projection you
said yeah I even he was explaining to me yesterday because he explained it
actually better yesterday than before I produced it yeah and you were saying
it looked almost like a projection on that day.
It wasn't a projection or it was on something.
It was just a three-dimensional thing in the air.
Describe the day that you saw this thing fly.
It was already out.
Barry and I were in the lab, and then Dennis came in and he said,
hey, why don't you guys come?
We're doing a test flight.
You know, so, oh, this is great.
So we go out through the lab door right into the hangar.
It was all already outside.
uh sitting on the ground and uh shortly after we got out there uh oh i did notice there was a radio
and i mentioned this in luigi's movie a vhf radio and their in communication so it it
it made me almost positive that there was somebody in the craft yep uh
i don't know how where they'd be sitting or how they would why they're even in the
craft
because it's, like I said, it's so uncomfortable and usable space.
They'd have to be hunched up or trying to sit on the edge of one of those seats.
So, um, that put aside, uh, so you think they put a person in there?
Because of the, I think so because they were communicating back and forth.
Did you hear a voice?
Yeah.
Whoa.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So you heard a voice coming from the craft.
No, from the radio from the VHF radio, but presumably coming from
the craft?
Yeah.
Wow.
Yeah.
presumably coming from the craft.
Yeah.
Wow.
Yeah.
So he was monitoring.
I mean, they must have had some other instrumentation set up in the crafts because he was
monitoring something.
Do you remember with the voice?
That was it just not a thing.
But it was something.
Because I would.
Yeah.
I mean I was more stuck on the fact that how is a radio wave getting into the craft?
This doesn't even make any sense.
VHF being very high frequency.
Yeah.
I mean it should be distorted by the gravity wave going around it anyway, shortly after the
began to lift off the ground silently at a little corona discharge glow on the
bottom and lift it off and drifted up into the sky and kind of moved around.
Um, during that test flight, um, Dennis motioned for me to come out and, you know,
look up at it.
And then he told me to walk forward and the, the craft was just sitting there
stationary and I walked out underneath it and he motioned.
for me to look up i looked up and i couldn't see the craft so i thought it flew away and then he said
you know come back and you know i i walked back and i just walked back it caught my attention
i see the edge of the the craft. so if you move you can see it and if you walk underneath it
you can't so you can clearly see it's it's bending the light you can
see the sky above the craft so you can see that it's in its little envelope
And then it kind of slid over to the left and right and then sat back down.
Is what you saw, did it look like what we talk about when we talk
about UFO videos and what we, you know, it's just like look at the, you
know, Nimitz, 2004 FLIR video or even some of the, maybe a better example,
some of optical videos, which are often grainy and fuzzy.
And maybe that's due to gravitational lensing or some sort of space-time
perturbation due to these effects that you're talking about but when you're seeing this craft
fly are you thinking this is the ufo stuff that's like in the lore yeah you are wow yeah for sure
i'm just because of the the way that it can move it can just negate
i mean it's i really don't know how to describe it um
I mean, things like inertia really don't.
matter to it. It just, it gets away with murder when it, when it comes to flying.
Did you ever think we are being tasked to figure out this reactor, even like, you know,
the shape of the craft is sort of really confusing to us. How the hell do they know how to fly this
thing? Yeah. Yeah. That goes through your head. Like you're like, are you? Yeah, well, I mean,
Right. Yeah. Like I said, you know, clearly they've, they've had a lot of time with this craft already. It could have been decades for all I know. So they're familiar with it. So I mean, they, they knew the emitters have to be rotated to couple to the reactor. I mean they knew how to fly it.
So these guys were somewhat proficient with it, but it, so it would be your kind of base case assumption that now we have functions.
functional, what you might call alien reproduction vehicles or UFOs that humans can fly.
If in 1987, 88, you had stuff that was, you know, we could at least test and you could
go under them and stuff, then you would think that now we're probably, we've probably made
much more progress, I assume, or what do you think?
I do not think so.
No.
You don't think so?
No.
So you think we're, we can test these things and use them in a rudimentary ways, but
We don't understand how they work.
No, it's like the, you know, analogy I gave.
You know, you can go back to the 1800s and drop off a motorcycle with the keys in it.
And, you could look at it and go, wow, that's never seen anything like that before.
And look at the plastic fenders on it.
And, wow.
That's unusual material.
And, there's the key.
And eventually, if you tinker with it long enough, someone's going to turn the key and it's going
to start.
And they're going to go, okay, we turn it off and go, all right, that's on and off.
And, you know, eventually, just given time and human, human ingenuity, they're
going to get it, it throttles here and they'll become proficient at driving it.
Yeah.
But when it runs out of fuel, we're done.
And when it comes right down to it, they can't even make that plastic fender.
Right.
So yeah, so you can become proficient at using it.
And I think that's where we are.
some knowledge of that, but I think, I think if we had developed that technology,
we would have absolutely already seen it.
We wouldn't be wasting one minute building a conventional fighter or other.
Why, why would you?
And they say, oh, well, it's secret.
Yep.
So jet engines were secret when we first came out with them and we built a whole
fleet, you know, we'd, we absolutely divert every resource we had to duplicating
these things.
Do you?
Do you guys think there's any chance that the craft is flown with somebody's mind, some
sort of mental?
It could very well be.
Yeah.
Because there was obviously no physical controls to it.
Right.
When the craft was being tested, the only test I saw from close range, it was already
out of the hangar.
And when I went into the hanger, the bay doors between all the hangars were open.
big, you know, there's the door that leads to the outside that's at an angle. But there's also big
bay doors between all the hangars. Those were open for some reason. And when I came in
to go witness that, I was able to look down and see that, boy, there're other, because nine of them
all the way down there. What's going through your head and emotionally? How do you feel?
Well, first of all, where did they all come from? How could you, I mean, I could see you found one
there's a crash or whatever you found one you don't find nine i mean where where did they come from
none of them are are damaged to any degree although the one i call the top hat had holes in it but
it looks like it was shot you know projectile but there it wasn't you know damage from you know
crash or attempted landing um so where did all this stuff come from there's so much missing to
the story did they all look like the exact same
sort of replica no every each one was different okay but the material all
looked exactly the same the color the sheen so it looked like they were all
made of the same material so the reactors and the propulsion were all the same
the material was all yeah but the shapes were somehow right different do you
remember maybe I mean maybe there's specialized craft you know you can
take a step back from humanity and you go look at all the cars driving around
well you got a truck that's a real long thing you look at
a Volkswagen, that's like a little, you know, and you see a motorcycle gone, but they're all,
but they all have the same somewhat type of engine. You know, internal combustion engine is
all powering them all. So they must have all different functions. And maybe that's just what
we're looking at. It's just, yeah. And who says they're All Men? Maybe some of those things are
drones of some kind. People associate you with the kind of Billy
Meyer sports model, like, the craft that looks like that. It looks exactly.
like that exactly like that like i thought billy meyer was absolutely ridiculous because i i've seen
some of the pictures and this is what i mentioned to you the other day ufo researcher syndrome i think
the initial pictures billy mire took um of the sport model looking craft are a hundred percent
genuine there's no way that that there could be another one of those that just coincidentally
looks exactly like the
what I call the sport model.
So I think he absolutely photographed that and it was real.
And I think at the time he got a lot of attention and you know, they printed
books and everything and I think as time went on, he kind of missed that.
And then he started making some models and taking some new pictures and the other
pictures look ridiculous.
Yeah, right, right.
They do.
It looks like, you know.
And there's something about like dinosaurs in his book.
And yeah, I know it looks like there's styrofoam balls all
into it is yeah I found some more pictures you know come back and you know so I think that's
you know that that's just a personal belief yeah you there's no way you can tell me that those
original pictures aren't genuine yeah and and so that's the craft you worked on the eight other
crafts what did those look like I could only see two okay clearly because from the
angle, all you can see is just a little piece, and then all you
can just see is the hanger out there.
Um, but one looked like what do I call the jello mold, which is more like a
bun cake without the hole in the middle.
And then the other one, as I previously mentioned, a top hat, like a
carnival straw hat with the, and the brim had a hole in it.
So is your immediate instinct, uh, humans didn't make these.
Yeah.
Yeah.
At what point do you do you not see like an American flag on one of them or?
Yeah, on the sport model.
I saw that like the first day that I went in.
Okay.
Was there any talk of how these crafts were retrieved?
I know, I mean, I know the Navy got the sports model.
And I think that that was, from what Barry said, that was an archaeological dig, which by the way isn't in the desert.
it's in the water, you know, and I, if there's another term for an archaeological dig that's
on the water. I don't know what it is. I thought it's still a dig, but, um, yeah, that, I don'
know what body of water, if it was the ocean or a lake or what, but yeah that came from the water
I, I, again, according to Barry, I didn't see this in documentation, but. Um, yeah. That was
happened upon by the Navy and that's, that's all I know. And that's I just theorize that's
That's how the Navy got in control of everything.
So what you constantly hear is, you know, you have things like Hughes Aircraft building
the Glomar Explorer, which you know subsea.
building the glomar explorer which you know subsea you know uh uh discovery and um you have some some
actually more more recent lockied sub sea you know super subsea uh submarines and drone sort of
things that seem to be able to you know scan the sea floor and uh there's a great book called
the silent war by John Pena Craven and he was a high up in the Navy and he talks about retrieval
exotic technology on the seafloor, and I
I wonder, you know, you have Tim Burchette as a congressman from Tennessee who says there are five hot spots in oceans all around the world.
You know, we think they're coming in from way out.
Maybe they did millennial ago, but they're here and they're in these deep water areas.
And that's why, I mean, like we say, we know more about the face of the moon than we do.
What's going on there?
And we have a higher propensity of sightings around these five or six, I believe.
deep area deep water areas and you i don't know there's another i have one friend in the navy who's
you know anonymous source maybe one day we'll do an interview but he talks about the movie
the abyss by james cameron yeah yeah and he says maybe that scene where you know this sort of
glowing object shows up isn't too far off from the truth so look one of our science fiction
So look, one of our science fiction movies is going to be correct.
That's right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's a safe bet.
Yeah.
One of them is.
Yeah.
And we were talking last night with Luigi about Pascagoula, Missouri was the site
of the production of nuclear subs for the Navy.
And you have a famous case there of some fishermen who, you know, experience an alien
abduction and have a UFO experience.
So yeah, there's something going on with the ocean.
There is.
It's been from the very beginning.
George Napp has interesting footage around Baja, Mexico.
On the other side, you have Tampere, which seems to be a hot spot.
You have the Caribbean, Bahamas.
Yeah, I think it's where all these guys are hiding out.
That's exactly.
Do you think there's a possibility it's, you know, the ultra terrestrial hypothesis?
So this is this idea that they are ancient remnants
So this is this idea that they're ancient remnants of like an anti-deluvian civilization that existed pre-Ice Age or pre-younger dress.
An anti-Deluvian?
Yeah.
And that they are more advanced than a, they're like the place of what we call Atlantis are these beings who have co-existed, co-inhabited the Earth with us.
It could, it really could very well be.
Right.
And if you just look at the size of the ocean, you can hide an entire civilization down there.
And it will, especially if they're immune to the
of the ocean, just got to be deep.
Yeah.
We'll never find them.
Would any of the scientific principles that you looked at as far as the bubble being
created around the craft and all of that somehow be immune to saltwater?
Like, would it be able to travel transmedium?
Because that's one of the...
Yeah, absolutely.
That's so interesting because that's the observables.
Look, light bent around the crafts.
Yeah.
I'm sure a raindrop would do.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's so fascinating.
I've been involved in this whole thing since 1987 and since the 80s or even before let's go even all
the way down to the 60s everybody always talked about the U.S. Air Force and Project Blue Book and
project Blue Book I mean Bob Lazar comes out in 1989 and says they weren't crash saucers they
were intact craft yeah and it's the Navy that's in charge and funny enough
40 years later, that's what people are talking about.
Yep.
So, you know, when I see the new whistleblowers come out,
like Eric Davis or people that we're seeing,
I'm not skeptical at the fact that they were involved in something.
What I find very like basically
very interesting is that they're all saying exactly what Bob said in 1989,
but they never say Bob Lazar is possibly factual.
Right, right, right.
No, it's hilarious.
Yeah, yeah.
Bob has nothing to do with that.
But everything he said is right, though.
Yeah.
They said that they're like high level.
There's definitely a decades long multi-generational crash retrieval operation.
But the one guy who says he's worked on the craft is somehow full of shit.
No, no.
That makes sense.
Everything is right though.
I believe there aren't that many crashes.
There just aren't them any crashes.
If you had to guess how many crafts are in U.S. possession now in hangers.
now I don't know I mean nine nine for sure yeah yeah that's it I mean I can only
talk about what I've seen do you do you think they have a sense of ontological
tree like when you see all this stuff around you know the ability to
manipulate timelines with looking glass or or even just manipulate time on a
local scale and then they're saying that they found these things at
archaeological digs under the ocean.
Do you have a sense that they have like a metaphysical model
that's like greater than the average citizen?
So it's like their origin story of humanity.
Maybe.
You think maybe.
Yeah, I think there's a good chance of that.
Is your kind of Occam's razor explanation
that these are extraterrestrials?
Do you think they're time travelers?
What do you think?
I think that that's all equal.
I mean, there's just as much chance that they're,
you know, time travelers,
visitors from another dimension us from the future or aliens i i don't see anything pointing in any
specific direction i go with the aliens just because we've seen it so much in our movie i think we're
just trained to think that and it's it's palatable see other worlds this can go travel in another
fashion and get there there's probably life there they probably build things and you know it all
make sense yeah you know but I'm
when you go to other dimensions in time,
well, can you even time travel at all?
I mean, will that ever be possible?
You know, maybe, maybe not.
How do you get here from another dimension?
Why would you care?
I would go to another dimension
and start hassling people over there, you know?
So, I mean the other things don't make sense.
So, yeah, I lean, I guess the Occam's razor is aliens,
but it could be any one of the other possibilities
or one that we haven't thought of
that's just complete.
ridiculous what do you think was the top speed
of just conventionally moving yep i don't think it really had a very high
top speed really yeah hmm like if you had to it depends i mean it
depends on how it was being because you can you can maneuver it in a
couple different ways so um of course how would i know i mean the
the speed it could
attain but I'm just thinking about an Omicron mode where it's just sitting there and moving but you
think about Delta yeah and and at Delta the the speed's gonna be near infinite it's gonna
appear somewhere else you think almost close to the speed of light or it would look like it's
hopping across space-time or something no it'd far exceed the speed a light it'd be faster yeah
because you're not going in a linear fashion you're just jumping over Wow so it's bending it's
space yeah yeah so it's you know for a given distance you'll get you know to the destination
far faster than you would if you were traveling at the speed and it's like crunching space time
behind it and then in front of it it's going on it's it's riding a wave or something
it's just bending space around it did you hear anything around pulses
involved involved yeah yeah it's not a continuous it's
I don't know what the maximum range of each jump is,
but I know it's like a 10 millisecond recycle time in between it.
So the craft is always doing this.
When all three of the amplifiers are being
is always doing this.
When all three of the amplifiers are being used for travel,
they're in the Delta configuration.
And when only one is being used
for travel it's in the Omicron configuration.
You guys do an amazing job of depicting
the configurations and, so what is Delta exactly?
Delta is using the three, there's three amplifiers, Delta.
Yes.
And that's where they all focus together on a destination.
Okay.
The craft puts its belly in that direction.
And that's how it moves.
The Omicron is where it only uses one, you know, of the emitters to propel itself, or it's not really propelling itself, it's doing the opposite.
Essentially, create an indentation in space-time, so the craft moves forward, which always gives it, if it's operating in Omercron configuration,
It's never really stable. It's kind of a, you know, somewhat undulating.
movement you know it's so interesting and and yeah it's fascinating that that
seems to be a common thing the craft yeah this wobble right yeah but when it
switches to Delta as soon as the two other amplifiers come on yeah online that
thing locks in space and time and then it's you know able to focus in any
direction and move there instantaneously
Logan.
Oh, all right.
What's up?
It's good.
You're in our mid-century living room set.
You have Luigi, Vendatelli, Bob Lazar, and Logan is a longtime UFO nut.
And you watch WWE at all?
No.
He is the guy in WWE right now.
right now he has an amazing
podcast as well i've known his brother actually for like a decade plus dude i i gotta say bob it is
an honor to meet you man absolute legend what a privilege to talk to you oh thanks good good to
me too i don't know if jesse gave you any context to why i wanted to talk you they have a bit yeah
but maybe we rehash it okay okay so bob check this out okay i have in my possession ufo footage
that is compelling but not convincing and i've been waiting to do just do something with this
footage or receive confirmation of sorts and i see this particular orange disc sometimes in in
ufo videos and documentaries i'm watching it it pops up every now and then but when i was watching
the trailer for s4 that you guys released about 80 of the way through the trailer you guys show
A disc that is at night.
night, but then kind of coats itself in this orange.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's right.
Yeah.
Dude, I paused it there and I said, oh my God, that looks exactly like the footage that
I have.
So this footage supposedly authentic was taken by two college kids who wanted to go to
college kids who wanted to go to Area 51 in the 90s, I believe it was 1995, and filmed their
experience of trying to see if they could stumble upon a UFO or just alien activity of sorts.
Let's break this down.
A couple of college-age guys drove out to the black mailbox, an infamous landmark entrance
point to area 51.
It's along the road that leads to Groom Lake, extremely close to where
Bob said he worked.
It's nighttime.
They're parked right in front of the fence surrounding the secret facility.
The lights are off on their car, and they have a camera resting on the armrest pointed
through the front windshield.
And then it cuts to under the dashboard, and you see something very clearly illuminating,
like, the top of the dashboard.
And they're, like, hunkered underneath the car and they're whispering to each other,
like, I think it's out there.
Like, I don't know what it is.
and they're like, kind of scared.
Then something appears just beyond the glass.
The craft is hovering extremely close to the car.
It's orange and slightly wobbling or undulating in place as if it's on a wave.
You can hear the two guys whispering.
Look at that there.
Something over there.
Yeah, that to me is exactly
how it was described by Bob.
It's exactly like like your hand did your hand.
Yeah, it's moving the right way.
It's the right color and it's
the right shape.
So it makes
and it's the right shape.
So it makes it very compelling.
The intensity of the light,
there's something very, very bright
that is affecting that.
The dash is being lit.
It's the dash of the vehicle
and the craft is above it.
Right, right.
And look at the intent,
here's the dashboard,
and look at that the intensity
of the life that's going to happen here.
Right.
Whoa.
There.
Those are really,
really yeah you get and it's fading in yeah you can't fake that you can see that it wobbles
but it wobble like you're it wobbles that's the important thing yeah so it does comport with
your video wobbles it glows like that in that color in that shape that's wild dude yeah i mean
it's wild it's impressive it is
The craft emits an orange-reddish color, which is not a coincidence.
A craft with strong field interactions, like the ones that Bob alludes to, creates an ionized
plasma sheath around itself.
The dominant atmospheric gas on Earth is nitrogen.
Ionized nitrogen that interacts with plasma glows red-orange.
This classic observation of a glowing reddish or orange ball of light.
moving silently and erratically is one of the most commonly reported UFO descriptions
across decades of sightings worldwide.
No, what?
Did you see that move?
No, I didn't.
Now I know this footage is grainy, and while certainly fascinating, it's far from conclusive,
but it is another fascinating data point.
What Luigi's movie almost definitively vindicates is the existence of S4.
Remember, when Bob went public in 1989, Area 51 itself hadn't even been officially acknowledged
by the government.
And to this day, S4's existence is still denied.
It's not supposed to exist, but Luigi used Google Earth's historical imagery to go back
in time.
and found a 2022 version of the area surrounding S4
that was not yet blurred to obscure the site.
And yet, vehicle tracks are visible
in these older satellite images.
You can clearly see the tracks.
Look at them going in every direction.
And you look at all the traffic.
Yeah, right?
Yeah, that's not one guy driving around.
No, that't one guy drive.
Exactly.
Again, there's no public out there.
So what are you doing?
quality aerial photograph taken by a pilot roughly 17 miles from Papus Lake.
The image had previously circulated online, but Luigi enhanced the contrast a bit to reveal
additional details.
And if you look carefully in this version here where it's the contrast has been changed,
as we zoom, look what you see.
Yeah, you can start seeing.
You see them clearly.
start seeing, you see them clearly right there.
Yeah, the slanted rectangular doors, yeah.
Finally, and perhaps most damningly, the map of Papoose Lake was literally altered
eight days after Bob Lazar went public in his first anonymous video.
You heard me right.
They changed the map eight day after Bob started to speak out.
And the map was clearly modified in a way that would specifically hide the existence
of S4.
Bob went public.
on may 15th 1989 and he didn't come public his name was in public it was him as dennis as in silhouette
and and uh and eight days after that the united states department of the interior
who works on the geological maps of the landscape at the test site where it's groom lake papus
lake and the whole nevada test site actually
modified all the maps there is specifically groom lake and papus lake and the papus mountain range
there and there's a stamp on all the modifications because it mod the modification was dated 1989
so on the actual small print it says maps modified 1989 but the stamp of the exact day
is May 23rd, 1989.
exactly eight days after Bob went public.
And specifically, they are getting...
Just Papus Lake.
Just Papu's Lake, so they're removing S4.
No, what they remove, what the specificity there is the specific thing they removed
is there's a road that leads from Groom Lake down to Papus lake.
And as it leads down to Patpus Lake, the north end of the lake,
the road forks off, it splits off in two areas.
to the west of Papu's Lake and to the right of Papus Lake,
where S4 is.
They specifically removed the road to the east of Papua's Lake,
and they kept the same one to the West,
which why would they do that?
Why would you suddenly remove the road that goes to S4?
And leave everything else there.
And leave anything else there?
Yeah, that was an amazing discovery.
Yeah, and it's there.
I mean, it's not like, we're not making anything up here.
I was very specific of like, I don't want to put anything that makes us look like we're
inventing stuff.
This is verifiable.
You could order these maps.
The other thing I think that's interesting is for people doubting the story, Jeremy
Corbell and Ross Colthart found a bunch of people who have verified Bob's presence at
S4, right?
Uh, I think I think arriving at 51 or getting on the bus or something.
That's right.
yeah yeah yeah i think they found a bunch george napp also had some people and they got threatened
back then and they were told six people that were threatened and and basically they never made it
for george talks about it and in the interviews we did with him and he's talked about it in the past
and he says they all received the phone call they were all threatened and they never went public
And, and, you know, for anybody who's a Bob Lazar detractor or
doesn't believe the story, you then have to not believe George Napp because why would George lie
about that? What's the benefit here? And somebody's going to say, well, it's because he put his name
attached to the Bob story. No, not when that was happening. He was still investigating the Bob
story. So he said that back then. It's not like it's new information. Well, he was getting a lot
of shit. Yeah. Being involved with the story back then, it was not, certainly not a feather to
You know, it's something I really want to put a lot of emphasis on
because of all the haters out there is this happened when he came out.
It was in 1989.
It was a different era.
It was the different time in the world.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
So, you know, the people now that think that Bob Lazar is a grifter
or I'm a grifter because I'm making a movie about this and whatever,
I was interested in UFOs 40 years ago, and believe me, I was not popular.
This was the most unpopular topic when it came out.
It was considered to be so don't touch that because it's going to ruin your life.
So why would, first of all, why would Bob Lazar do that?
And then why would George Knapp, a respected investigative journalist in Las Vegas who already was well-known?
known and had a good job why would he hang his his reputation and ruin his entire career just to
support another lot another liar like it doesn't make any sense to me no no it really so you know
let's not forget those yeah and he has multiple p bodies he's well respected exactly as you said
outside of UFOs yeah yeah did you learn any other details about the guy that had died that you
operating reactor.
So apparently, which is also brings up all kinds of other questions to me, um, apparently
the reactors and all the craft are exactly the same.
So that makes me think of a manufacturing facility.
Yeah.
That's like a Ford making an engine and it goes in, you know, a bunch of different models.
How can all these crafts have the same?
You know, the same power system or propulsion system in them.
Anyway, I don't want to go off on a tangent, but he had a reactor, so it was probably from
one of the other crafts. And why they did this is beyond me. They took it out to the nuclear test
site and they physically cut into it while it was running under load and it exploded. And all,
I think there were three guys there, maybe more. They were all killed.
number one why would you do that number number two it makes me think either they were extremely
desperate and want to just well find out what's in there and you know and uh why would
you even do it while it was operating or extremely confident that they knew what was going on in
the reactor where they could safely cut it and they had a reason to get in there um but apparently
that information never made it back, whatever they gleaned from it, or even their suspicions
at the beginning, because Barry and I were kind of starting from the beginning on the reactor.
So everything they had done previously was lost.
Anyway.
You ever learned the guy's name or any details about?
Does Barry have a last name or?
Yeah.
Barry Castillo, it's spelled Castillo.
but okay
I don't know how it's pronounced.
Yeah.
Have you ever tracked him down after all this?
I think briefly decades ago we made a reel because there was another guy that would come in and out once in a while named Renee.
Okay.
Don't remember his last name.
But I mean, at some point I really put a lot of effort into trying to find Dennis Mariani and Barry.
And I think some people did track down Dennis.
I think he died not too long ago.
Okay.
I don't
know about barry but uh i never was that never able to find it because i mean back in the time
i was looking for him there was no internet sure you know so you had to go through public records
and stuff yeah uh it was much more difficult than it is now yeah and i i know of one instance in
which the name dennis mariani was corroborated by somebody at you know a nevada test site and so
um you know i won't i want to go further than that but uh because it's not right it's
but you're giving names and you know i think some of these people could still be alive which is
pretty yeah remarkable too like maybe we could track some of them down and they could back you up
i wonder i mean they have to know i'm kind of wondering why nobody else came out you know yeah
i mean although barry wouldn't talk about it much you know um there are times i kind of mentioned
You know, holy cow, can you believe this
is being kept secret. And he goes, I, it sucks. I know. So he didn't think it was, you know,
he wasn't with the program as far as keeping this from the entire world.
What was his background? No idea. Okay.
No, I do. Um, but there was kind of a collegial goodwill between you and him.
Yeah. Yeah, and he'd goof around sometimes, which was nice because everything else was just so
rigid and military.
So, you know, I'm sure
You heard the story where he threw the golf ball at the reactor and, you know, sometimes
we'd start just start talking about stupid stuff.
So it was, it's good to see a normal person.
You know, that just acted like a human instead of a robot.
What happened when he threw a golf ball to the reactor?
He was showing me the field on it.
And he said, check this out.
And took a golfball and you know intending to hit the reactor.
And instead it, it bounced off the field and then hit a ceiling tile.
which dislodged it and made all the little particles, you know, come down.
And we knew Dennis was going to be coming back in two minutes.
So it was red alert.
We had to grab the stools and go up and reassend it and clean it up and everything.
And shortly after that, Dennis walks in, what's going on?
Nothing, nothing.
You know, we're working like we should be.
I mean, this is a remarkable detail around the reactor.
this sort of force field like thing this like repelling force yeah yeah once the uh a hemisphere
on top of a plate you know about the size of a basketball maybe a little bigger on top
of a 15 inch square plate um hemisphere is removable once the hemisphere is put back on
if the emitter is in the right position the reactor will turn on immediately
and it'll produce a gravitational field around it and you can push on it
And you can't touch the reactor from that point.
I mean, and it's somewhat elastic, you know, like if you have two light poles of a magnet pushing them together, you get that.
It's the exact same feel, but without metal, it's just your hands.
But as I said before, what's really interesting is, you can move the reactor on the table.
And once you turn it on and you're pushing on the field,
the reactor doesn't slide.
So it's not transferring the force to the reactor.
It's pushing your hand away.
But so that's, it's really interesting to me.
How did the reactor work?
This is all guess.
This is just all guesswork.
Yes.
It has a super heavy element in it,
which appeared to be 115 on the periodic chart.
There's a little tower.
in it and from X-rays we could see that there's a loop around the base plate so it
was theorized apparently Barry with his other lab partner they thought that was
a cyclotron an accelerator and that the tube that came up the side was an off
ramp essentially and that particle or whatever was being accelerated
interacts with the 115 and somehow
that produces the gravitational field.
How did it feel on your hand?
It felt exactly like pushing magnets together.
Okay.
It was just elastic.
I mean, it was compressible to some degree.
And then when it got close to it, you're nothing is getting past that.
With magnets, you have to have like poles for them to repel.
Yeah.
And in this case, you are not, you know, just a matter repelling
matter. Yeah, it's so weird. Without polarity. Does it feel like a, what does it
feel like? Does it, is there a texture to it or? No, it is just,
it's just elastic, but it, it becomes it's not linear. But does it feel
like it says it's logarithmic, you know, it it's it's easy to push and then it
becomes impossible. There's no way you're getting past the next three inches.
You could probably sit a car on top of it and nothing would change.
Does it feel like saran wrap?
Or does it feel like, like what does it
feel like when you're in it?
Does it feel, like?
No, it just feels.
It's literally like air, like, yeah.
I see what you're saying.
You know what I mean?
I described that.
Yeah.
Like, is there a coolness, a heat?
No, no.
It's just like space time itself.
Yeah, it's just, I don't know how to describe it.
Sure, sure.
just there. I mean, at this point, I don't even think it's gravity. I think this is another
completely unique force. It doesn't behave enough like gravity.
And explain why it's so different. Like, I mean because at least my thoughts at this
point are, I think gravity is just a property of matter and it's only an attractive force.
Bye.
I'm not sure you can have anti-gravity.
Like if it was gravity, you know, at one point,
Barry showed me, he had one of the emitters at working.
He put a lit little kitchen candle right at the focal point.
And he powered up the reactor, and the flame stopped flickering.
It stood there frozen in space and time.
But I could see the light from the candle.
The flame was still visible.
Also, he removed the candle and then rotated the emitter.
I don't know if it was in another direction or more the same way, but it made a little black ball in the air where no light was escaping, looking like a black hole.
But no, you could just tell there was no light at the focal point right in the area.
It was just a dark area.
So there it's affecting light.
But it wasn't in the candle test before that.
it
It's a really unusual, unusual thing.
When Bob mentioned this anomalous force
coming from the craft's emitter,
I immediately racked my brain
for anyone in conventional aerospace circles
who talks about something similar.
And then I realized I just interviewed
the lead electrostatic scientist at NASA,
Dr. Charles Bueller,
who talks About Something Very Similar.
Okay, where the heck is this energy coming from?
this in space. It would accelerate. With the power off. That's a problem.
You see, there's a long lineage of people studying gravity control or anti-gravity in the United
States. Perhaps my favorite example is mid-century inventor Thomas Townsend Brown, who discovered
that when you apply a high voltage to certain asymmetric capacitors, they produce thrust.
That's right, propulsion with no fuel, no
exhaust, no propellant, just electricity as the input converted directly into motion,
a new model for space propulsion that could eliminate crude chemical combustion rockets
forever. Now you might think that's insane and defies Newton's laws. And I'll spare you all of
the corroborating research that I've dug up, showing that Brown made real breakthroughs in
the world of anti-gravity. Dr. Charles Bueller at NASA has taken Brown's experiments to the next
level, with modern instruments, more rigorous controls.
What do we see about 0.1 grams that corresponds to about 1 millineuton of thrust.
And decades of electrostatics expertise from his work at Kennedy Space Center behind him.
He's done over 2,000 of these experiments and controlled for just about every variable
you can think of.
And he's also getting millinutons of thrust, basically real propulsion with electricity
as the sole input.
And you can't really argue with his authority to make
make these claims. The man literally runs electrostatics at NASA. He's the incoming president of the
American Electrostatics Society, and he's contributed two fundamental principles to the field of
electrostatics that are now widely accepted. So this is kind of an interesting moment in history
because we have a man who reverse-engineered UFOs, and then we have an NASA lead electrostatic
scientist. So I thought I'd just leave it to you guys to kind of nerd out.
Yeah, well, first of all, hi, Charles.
Hi, Bob. This is a very exciting moment for me. I'm a big fan.
Now, the thing about Bob Lazar is he kind of exists on an island. We've never seen him
interact with other highly credentialed engineers in aerospace. And what I've learned
after spending time with him is he's actually pretty skeptical when it comes to other scientific
anomalies.
Man, I'm real interested to hear, you know, your physical experiment set up. Is it a
of your idea in tt browns or is it are you just duplicating one of his experiments i mean what
can you explain to me what it looks like what's your test setup look like gosh there's 2000
variations i'll try to do my best um i mean how how is this i'm sure you've seen the lifter
ion motors and stuff along those lines how is it different from those a few ways um
The ion thrusters obviously use ions in the air to give the momentum of oscillation.
What's interesting about this force, even though it's sort of the same geometry can be used,
but at high vacuum, you'll get the thrust. But it's always in the opposite direction of the ion
thrusters, which is really cool. Because what happens is you have a sharp electrode in the ground
plane. However you do that, you can come up with a million ways to do that. In air, when you do
that you'll break down the gases either corona or some fold like that
In vacuum, we can actually see these forces arise, but they're always in the opposite direction
of the ion wind, which is really interesting.
That is very interesting.
It's the same direction as the rocket exhaust.
You never think of that naturally.
So it really messes with you.
So that's what's interesting about it.
That's one main difference.
Wow.
Yeah, well, that's really interesting, I mean, that the fact that it's in the
opposite direction of an ion, where an ion thruster would be.
And you've done it in a hard or reasonably hard vacuum.
And you're getting measurable thrust?
Oh, we have.
We've been doing that since 2020.
So for the last six years, we test almost every day, probably every other day, different
configurations.
So we zero in on a configuration, test another concept.
And that is an ongoing iterative process.
So yes, we tested a high vacuum, 10 to the minus six, we're better.
The champion get up to 10 to minus seven, but enough to prove to us that there's no IAM
wind.
What kind of thrust in Newtons or grams are you getting?
Well, we're still playing around in the hundreds of micronutons or millinuton ranges, so I think
the highest we've gotten is probably up to the 50 millinute mark, but that's when we stack these
together. We don't learn a lot from them when we do that, other than we can make more thrust,
which is important, but we like to understand the thrust density, if you will, of each thruster.
So we're trying to optimize each type, optimize each parameter space that we have access to
we can get to larger chambers or outer space to test the mega structures.
Physically, how big are these thrusters?
Oh, they're not very big. They're about six inches, maybe six by six roughly.
Okay.
That range. It's a nice size. You know, we can make them bigger, but we don't gain
anything by that. We just try to keep them manageable so that we can, you know, do different
things with them, stack them, try different voltages. And then we try to measure the currents.
We make sure that in many cases there's
There's no current, which is very odd.
Yeah, I would say.
Isn't that interesting?
Yeah.
I'd, I'd say, turn the power source off and it keeps going.
Wait, what?
Yeah.
It is very annoying that in some cases, when we trap the charge in there,
that's all that's required.
So that really eliminates a lot of things.
So I'll, a physically larger one doesn't get you any more thrust, but you can
stack them and get increased thrust.
Well, the physically large one will, but we won't learn anything.
from it. You know, we can do eight inches or 10 inches each we have, but we're not learning anything
from. We want to learn, you know, what is the best geometry, shape, we want to optimize. We know
area is one of the ways that will be optimized later once we're in space. But on ground test
articles, we're kind of fixed by the geometry of our chamber. Once we get some funding here,
we do, Drew does have almost a walk-in size chamber in his garage. You can walk in it.
Wow. When that comes online in a few months, then we can test.
much larger versions of it so the thrust does depend on the area it does depend
on the volume it does dependent on the voltages the typical things you would
expect but we try to optimize it as much as we can with the chamber that we have
actively running right now how much how much are you charging them up to what
kind of voltage are you using well when we started in 20 2016 it was at the
Townsend Brown level 150,000
volts. Okay. Thank goodness we're not anywhere near that now. I think we're operating right
now about 400 volts. You're at 400 volts? Yeah. So his belief is that it's really Brown thought
that the voltage range was, you know, the thing causing the thrust. But Charles's belief is
that that's sort of a proxy for electric field strength. And there are obviously other ways
to amplify electric's field strength that lower voltage is. And so he's using 400 volts
It's shocking.
1.5 milli Newtons.
That's unbelievable.
Man, I want to come over and hang out with you.
I can introduce you guys.
Put your hands on it.
Do whatever you like.
You're more than welcome.
Isn't that exciting?
Yeah.
I can't believe you're getting these results and I
can't get past the 400 volts either.
If you increase the voltage, you don't see any change in thrust.
Oh, you'll get more thrust for sure.
We'd like to stay.
you know, 200 volts, 500 volts, we'd like to stay low if we can.
Okay.
Yeah.
It's a preference.
We, I mean, we all average, we'll test up to two, 2,500 volts.
We can start worrying about breakdown when you get more about that.
Cause these systems are getting much, much smaller.
So we don't have access to the higher fields anymore.
It's material properties that we have to deal with.
But, but we like the two, 300 volts.
It, it gets rid of other nuances like, uh,
corona wind or anything like that right right yeah all that stuff gets tossed out yeah you're not
even ionizing the air no it's it's nothing i mean it's not that that's that's why i was so shocked
because all those other effects drop out right as soon as you drop the voltage down that low and
you can i get you can get some cleaner data then that's damn this is really cool we're converting
bob on towns and brown yeah well thank you for this really appreciate
I appreciate it, man.
Good to meet you.
Good to be to too.
Take care guys.
Take care.
I'm not here.
That's really fascinating.
Isn't that wild?
Yeah, it's a little more than just wild.
I know, right?
Yeah it is.
I mean, that's significant.
I think so.
It could really be significant.
You know, the thing is the first thing I would point out,
there's something wrong with your tests,
but not in 1,500 tests.
No.
You know, when you've gone through it,
many times and have done it for this long boy and you've adjusted all the you know
potential parameters and fallouts to no I can't yeah I know yeah I you got to
assume there's that the thing's working but you also you mentioned DC voltage in
the craft and that was yeah that's also a Townsend Brown that is high DC yeah
that it's not just high DC voltage I even mentioned it on you know Joe Rogan
I think the material the craft is made from is an electric.
And so it only just like a magnet always has a magnetic field to it.
An electric always has an electrostatic field.
Interesting.
And I think I think that's certainly something important.
Were there high climb rates to the voltage likely?
You know what I mean?
Like really high.
voltage likely you know what i mean like really high climb like like like fast you know swinging
up in voltage oh yeah i'm without a doubt it's so fascinating because it's it's literally all
the towns and brown stuff it's like fast high dc voltage yeah like fast climb rates yeah you know
well i wonder if that really applies to the craft more than i was giving it credit for i think it
does especially after your conversation with belay yeah yeah i mean now that's making me wonder
it could very well be but again because of the high voltage on the craft and it's dc
So there's no magnetic field interference.
Yeah, right.
Man, that's...
We're making progress live here.
He might have been so far past this already, but...
Well, the funny thing about Brown is he was looking for a power source that was nuclear
for like the rest of his career.
Oh, yeah.
We figured out the electrocovittics and then he called it the flame jet jet.
Boy, that would have been the guy to have there other than me.
Well, I mean, you and him.
I'd just...
No, no, you don't need me.
You'd walk off set.
even him would be.
I just get in the way, but yeah, he'd be the guy to have there.
And you were given some theories like there being two gravities, gravity A and gravity B.
Was that in the briefing documents or was this told to you?
Actually, that's, I think that was part of what Barry, Barry had other lab notes.
And I don't know if those were previous documents that he had, but there were lab notes and
the
this was the direction they were going in at one time.
There are two specific different types of gravity,
gravity A and gravity B.
Gravity A works on a smaller micro scale,
while gravity B works on larger macro scale.
Gravity A is what is currently being labeled
as the strong nuclear force in mainstream physics,
and gravity A is the wave that you need to access and amplify
to cause space-time distortion for interstellar travel gravity b is cosmo is like cosmological
scale and gravity a is like subatomic scale apparently apparently which it is really interesting
because i remember you're like kind of og science tutorial we were texting about it
yeah the the the excerpts from the government bible yeah original tape that you did and it's
it's amazing so it's it sounds like this new the kind of gravity A is like basically the
you
perimeter of the the atom or what you're dealing with but so you have to scale again i'm just
repeating stuff that i was told it's not like i conducted an experiment to verify that so but it
is almost the solution to what has been keeping physics stuck for so long yeah possibly quantized
gravity right right possibly that's so possibly if in fact that's gravity have you ever you know
talking about this but um gravity like fields and i want to give this to you because you can
make sense of it more than me. And we were talking about this last time. This is this guy Burkhard
Heim. Have you ever heard that name? I've heard the name, but I don't know anything about him.
So he at the age of 19 became deaf and blind due to an explosion. And he was a German and he
ended up moving over to the US and working for Lockheed Martin in the 50s and was renowned as
just a total genius. And he had a really interesting theory of gravity, which
involved i guess two gravitational fields and like some of these like sub components of gravity
i wrote this down because it's honestly beyond my pay grade gravity breaks down big and small scale
so it could be gravity a and gravity b specifically standard gravity g is the tensor summation
of three gravitational components g g which g big g little g which is scalar gravity propagated
by the graviton.
By the gravitons, so he's going with gravitons.
that okay ggp dark energy slash matter propagated by the gravity gravitophoton and gq vacuum field
a repulsive force propagating by the quintessence particle so in addition to the standard four
forces gravity electromagnetism strong nuclear and weak nuclear eht which is extended heim theory
which is named after him adds two previously unrecognized gravitational forces which brings
us to six fundamental forces.
Wow.
And what I've
find interesting about that is there's a, um, Amy Eskridge is this anti-gravity researcher
who actually died under very mysterious circumstances. And she apparently was at the end of her life
kept talking about a sixth force. That was like. A sixth force, really? Sixth force. Yeah.
The sixth force is anti- gravity. That's what my group has a mathematical equation to physically
describe. We have sixth force on lockdown. And so I wonder about, you know, this book and there's
these two guys in Germany who are very high conviction in this.
extended time i like to read it well it's yours well thanks of course oh that's really interesting
isn't it interesting yeah i i'm also on that i think it it was not gravity i don't think it is
i don t think it's gravity yeah it's something else yeah something else going on yeah because
if it were right if there were gravity well that you'd normally see it's a little black hole
little gravitational source you just see everything
getting sucked into it no matter what other things would have acted differently too
yeah light light lensing and yeah yeah so it's it almost feels like it almost has to be it almost
has to um it's almost like it had root access to reality itself like it froze time
yeah but if it throws time how come the photons were still coming out of it i you see a glowing
candle it should be dark can it
can it freeze time in some local space but still confine it still the photons are flying out yeah
maybe and if you say well it doesn't affect photons how come it made the black little ball
so what do you so have you where do you think would you have a best candidate for what it is
no hmm there there is no that's why i think i i mean i lean towards this is this is another force
and just stop calling it gravity.
but you think it's what's Barry said the only thing we know that does this is
gravity so we're calling it a gravity generator mm-hmm okay and then and
it's and it's being created ostensibly due to this proton bombardment of element
115 and then possibly yeah 116 and then you get a decay and then if in fact all
that's occurring yes it's so interesting I mean don't forget that
In the film, we did not include the mechanical watch experiment that was also conducted in the lab.
So there was the candle, the black ball, and the mechanical wash.
We didn't put it in there just because we wanted to shorten the film.
But there was another experiment, Bob, remember?
And there was like a mechanical watch that just stopped clicking.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, that's another indicator where Bob said.
Just like that.
I mean it's kind of similar to the candle.
It just stopped.
Yeah.
but I could still see it.
Yeah.
Hmm.
It's like it's freezing.
It's time.
It's freezing movement.
Freezing movement.
But not affecting anything else.
There's nothing that just freezes a move.
No, it doesn't.
But that is really time is so weird because we we only that inhibits kinetic energy, right, which would be
that would be really weird.
Well, it's so weird, especially given all of the forms of possible kinetic energy.
You're talking about a a watch, a mechanical watch and a flame
are very different things.
Yeah.
So it's so strange.
While you were there, did you tell anybody what you were working on, you know, your, your
wife at the time?
No, Gene Huff.
You told Gene Hough.
Yeah.
Okay.
Well, I told John Lear too.
Yeah.
And you even brought them to see.
Oh yeah.
To see the test.
Yeah.
Because I had the test flight schedule.
Yep.
So I know it's a Wednesday night.
Yeah.
We're going out there and you guys are going to see it.
Yeah.
Yeah, we're going out there, and you guys are going to see it.
This is John Lear, and today is March 22, 1989.
We're standing just about eight miles to east of Grum Lake, Nevada,
the super government secret test site.
And just a few minutes ago, we saw one of the government extraterrestrial UFOs fly over there.
We all watched it for about seven or eight minutes.
Right here, I have my Celestron scope.
It's eight inches.
had it focused in for about 15 seconds and saw for myself that in fact it was a disc.
Um, there, there isn't much to see with the camera back in that day.
And that was while you were working at S four.
You showed them that, or was it afterwards?
That was, boy, that's a tough question.
That was while I was working there.
Okay.
Yeah.
When you saw the UFO with Gene Huff and John Lear and you, you kind of, you know,
them what was it to the little mesa was it a mesa or no uh it was right outside it was uh yeah before
you know before you get to the black mailbox you know the reason anybody knew about the black
mailbox everybody wanted to know where the road was that we turned down when you come up the
highway it's this first dirt road you go down but there's no landmarks around there and if you
keep going like another mile or two there's a black mailbox so i just said
it's around the black mailbox. Yeah. And that just got repeated and everybody thought it's a black
mailbox. The black mailbox road is where it is. It's not anywhere near where it
is. When, when, when all you guys went up there and you saw the UFO fly and I'm sure they were
just totally shocked. Were you allowed back at S four after that? Yeah. Well, the, yeah, the first
for after that yeah that well the yeah the first time they didn't know we were out there oh they
didn't yeah yeah we we only got caught the last time okay so they get and then i would never have
let me back so after the last you weren't let back there right that was it that was that was
absolutely yeah you were finished no they're not gonna come on back it's yeah no yeah yeah they
were pretty pissed yeah why did you decide to come out and
I don't know because like I was still getting followed there was always somebody parked outside
my house and I was starting to get scared and I I you know I think that's when I first
started telling Jean I said you know hey if all of a sudden they disappear you know
I'm working out at the site there and eventually I told him he said why are you working on
secret weapons or something I said no I'm work on this and you know kind of told him but
um I dunno I'm just getting concerned about
what's going on why do you think they were following you i don't know it might just be normal security
did you take anything from the lab well not at that time okay okay later but that's
interesting that they were we'll file that away but it's interesting that um they were
following you as if you had done something wrong when you were just showing up to work
no but i mean you know they were still doing
they allowed me in there and they were still progressing on my clearance. They were still
going through background checks, but they really wanted me on site operating quickly. And they
kind of let that slide because I've had clearance before. So, you know, but I, yeah, they were
looking at some other things too. Got it. That concerned them. About you personally.
About my relationship. Okay. Got
digging into that that's kind of yeah you know you have to have a stable family background if you're
gonna be okay playing around with state secrets and stuff like that sure they want you being crazy
they don't want you drinking they're gonna be checking out you know how you play with friends if
you were going to rages I want to make sure yeah you're you know your wife isn't running around and
they don want any stress or any anything to but then at that point if you see these like you know
black cars parked outside of your house, why isn't
your reaction, okay, I'm just going to kind of eat it.
Like they're going to like, you know, give me like a colonoscopy as far as like,
you know.
Literally like knowing 360, everything about my life, but I'll be able to retain my job at S4.
Or do you just, you get scared and you're like, I got to, I gotta come out.
I guess it's some, I don't really remember how I felt back then, but
I was just getting a little concerned.
Yeah.
And, uh, did you, I think it couldn't hurt to at least tell one person, you
know.
So, did you want, cause, uh, John Lear gave the files on you to George Knapp, right?
A K-L-A-S.
Is that how it went down or?
Gave the files.
Or gave the, like, um, said like, you know, Hey, yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I, yeah, John lear is the one that contacted George Nnapp and said, you should speak
to this guy.
Okay.
So he played kind of intermediate.
Did, was he going rogue?
on his own or did you say, hey, can you contact, you know, George or somebody in the local news
to help me get this stuff out? No, I think, I mean, at that, well, things were starting to get
weird. And, um, uh, I, yeah, I don't really remember how that went down, but I think
George said, look, you gotta, you got to get the information out publicly because that's the
only way that's the only thing that'll protect yourself is that that's really stupid I'm not gonna
do that and you know it was just a couple days later on well maybe it's not that stupid so um
and was it do you think it was um self-protection or idealism were you was a part of you like this
needs to be out this is crazy the garden that's hiding yeah yeah but it was it was an equal
part of self- protection too yeah no fair enough um lear is somebody i think a lot of people
have questions about because he was he had crazy belief
So I think, you know, I mean, some of the stuff was so ridiculous.
You know,
I would sit there and just talk to him and go,
you are absolutely out of your mind if you believe.
Yeah.
I mean it didn't believe the sun was hot.
And they said there were people living in the sun.
So there's no one living in The sun, John.
And so, yeah, they built the moon on Jupiter and that's where they manufactured it.
And they towed it into Earth's orbit.
What is given you these ridiculous, why are you believing?
this nonsense. Yeah. And how'd you meet him? Gene Huff was a real estate appraiser. And at the
time, John was looking to get a loan on his house. And he had been on, George Knapp had a show on
the record, like after the news. And John Lear had been there back when he wasn't so, well, I wasn't
Thank you.
I wasn't going to say it wasn't so crazy, but didn't have such crazy ideas.
You know, I mean, he was, uh, look he was an accomplished pilot, a brilliant guy.
And he had, you know, tons of files and had lots of great contacts.
The only problem with John was he had no bullshit filter.
Yeah.
I mean he could have a four star general tell him something
and he'll write it and put it in a file and he will have some derelict
that's walking by his house and go,
I know Jello thinks and he'll go, all right.
And he'll put him in the same file and they have the same level of credibility
going, what are you talking about?
You know, um, so, uh, he drove me crazy because of that.
But um, he did, you know, earlier on he was.
You know less exotic with his theories and you know it's spoken to George
Nap.
I had seen it on TV.
So a Gene Huff and, um.
Anyway, he wound up doing.
the appraisal on his house and I went with Gene to help you know help him measure it and uh you know
kind of got talking to John and that's how we met he's such an odd character because his father
created the first business airliner in the US the Learjet yeah Bill Lear aviation legend
bill Lear invented the autopilot invented the eight-track tape I mean he's radio direction
finder yeah yeah yeah he was he was quite a guy he was and so um he would I mean
he had a problem with john too i mean john was eliminated from you know his will and john showed
me as well you know every paragraph said except you know everybody gets this stuff except john
olson lear except john olson lee i mean he was so angry at his kid yeah just completely removed
him from the well maybe um apple fell far from the tree like you know as far as uh uh you know
aviation, engineering,
prowess or something. But John Lear won all sorts of records as a pilot. He was a very impressive
pilot. Oh, yeah. Credit is due where credit is due. I mean, he had all kinds of world records.
And it's just, it's, just his filter. John Leer was super into UFOs before you got the job at
Area 51 S4. Like, I think he had a UFO blog. And so do you think like, why do you
think it didn't come up.
up in a background check that you were friends with this.
Oh, I did.
Oh, it did.
They absolutely asked me about John Lear like the first day.
Okay.
Okay.
Yeah.
What's your relationship with John?
In fact, that might have been the first question.
Really?
Yeah.
At EG&G when I sat down.
That's that.
Yeah.
It's the first thing they mentioned.
And what did you say?
I said, he's a crazy friend.
Yeah.
And I don't remember what else, but I just, you know, told him some stuff.
Yeah.
met him and yeah he's uh it's fascinating and i mean john would just do the craziest stuff you know
back then he'd uh he flew l1011s which is a big big jet you know i know it's 400 people on it or
something like that and you know occasionally he'd call and just you know be like a tuesday night
eight o'clock hey you want to go to minneapolis uh okay all right meet me down
at the airport wear a suit and come on so he'd be a pilot and you know the pilot of the craft
and i'd come on he said just come on the tarmac i'll tell this guy and
you know walk up in the plane and he'd tell the co-pilot and engineer hey this guy's from the
faa so he's just going to be observing us and taking it so i take the jump seat behind the
you know pilot and just fly with john did he talk to you about ufos before you got the job at s4
area 51 no it didn't talk to me about him but okay
And he spoke about them, which made, I mean, he used to tell me there are aliens living in the mountains alongside, you know, I think it's I-95 or something on the highway.
He said, yeah, there's a billion of them in there.
It's so crazy.
Did he ever show you anything Billy Myers related?
I don't, I don'T recall.
Okay.
I think, I Think when I described, Ithink when I describe the craft to him,
him and drew it. I think he brought out the Billy Meyer book and he said, I think that's
where I for in fact it is that's where I first saw it. So we saw we showed him the Billy
Meyer's tape. I said, yeah, that's that's not like the craft that's the craft. That's
so interesting. So yeah, he kind of helped you piece it together is did he was he still
affiliated with because he was a CIA cargo pilot till 1983. I. Yeah that's true. Did he
continue flying for them after that
or did he...
a film okay i don't think so yeah because he was he's this interesting character to me because it
seems like he has crazy access to area 51 like he's like snooping around and taking photos of like
f-117s and he even leaks the details of the f-117 to george nap but then he still like knows all
the security guards there so i'm like what's his what's this deal you know i mean i had been out
at you know but before the s4 thing um you know out in the desert
in the middle of the night with binoculars and stuff try outside a tonopah yeah you know trying
to get pictures uh any new aircraft that's flying around because i mean he was obviously a big
aviation buff yeah you you know and i was into that too sometimes i just go out and watch you know
fighters taken off from nellis air force base because you could get right up to the fence there and
and uh you know so it was uh yeah he was definitely into snooping around and yeah whatever he could
find out I I'm
mentioned Jacques Vallée earlier. He, you met him, right?
Yeah, I met him and, you know, we spoke briefly and then, um, from what I remember, uh, somebody was talking
about making a movie with him. And then after hearing about me and talking, they started talking
about, well, maybe we won't, we'll do it on Bob instead. And he was super pissed off.
Yeah. And then from that point on, all of a sudden, you know, everything Bob said is crazy.
Really? Yeah. But yeah, initially he was.
Because he writes, he wrote a book called Messengers of Deception, and he writes about you and he says,
you know Bob Lazar seems to be very legit. But he also talks about this pine saw drink he drinks,
you know this drink he drink and the memory lapses it caused.
Now what? There's no memory.
No memory lapses.
and nonsense okay it's it's you know so it was like this vitamin b shot that was like immunity
related yeah yeah that's all it was again you know we're working with completely unknown materials
yeah we don't know what and apparently people had severe reactions yeah to some of this stuff just
touching the craft so yeah so they had dealt with that before i feel like i can defend you on
99.9 of things and then the one thing i have trouble with is the mit thing because
Because that's the other thing circulating.
is it was did you get your masters there or you were sent there i was sent there on a specific
kind of program isolated program yeah and then yeah and i did i i did a lot of auditing uh-huh
in both places and then on on caltech for caltech what was that that so you were
sent to mit and then caltech was different caltech it was way before that okay that was you know
but um and now i don't know i guess if i really look through old paperwork and stuff i can
but that's never been yeah and i think george natt found i think some people who knew you at
yeah yeah i mean yeah yeah yeah one other question that people have is why were you allowed to give
him a tour of los alamos after uh you know you blew the whistle on area 51 like why wasn't there
this like nationwide directive at all of the national labs like don't let this guy back and
look it was really nothing i mean we got on a southwest
flight came out there running the car drove up and uh i still knew all the guards and stuff like that
so it came up and he's you know it's like lazar you're back yeah just going in there to you know
you think it was just like it was like a different time and oh it's you can't los alamos is so much
higher security now i mean it was so nonchalant back then and we just wrote right into the
experimental areas came over here i said george this is my
desk were you surprised was a part of you nervous that there would be some red alert no not at all
you were like zero concern you didn't worry that there was any sort of coordination between area 51
and nobody knew it was going on there it was like i said it was very lax atmosphere in fact
um a year or two after that they were so concerned about that i think they called it the tiger team
came in to test security there and they failed so
horribly um that they just redid everything and uh you know after that point you're forget it you're
not going in but um yeah i like still had keys and things yeah yeah it was it was not even a problem
when did you start united nuclear 99 2000 did you ever work with the government with united
nuclear yeah yeah oh yeah okay yeah do you i mean we still we supplying
I am, you know, they, they train, uh, Department of Homeland security, FBI.
I mean, we, we sell them stuff all the time, especially when they're training
people to use radiation detection equipment.
I mean we'll give them or sell them, you
know, radioactive sources so they can go hide something in a warehouse and give
the trainees a Geiger counter go, go find it, you
know, and did you ever wonder why they didn't view you as a liability given
you're, you know,
know, late 80s experience at S4 Area 51 and they were just down to do contract work with
you.
I don't know.
You know, but one hand doesn't know what the other is doing in the government.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's kind of a mess.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No.
And it's, uh, I mean, in fact, part of, you know, United Nuclear when it was just beginning, um,
some of the stuff we're selling was kind of questionable.
Mm-hmm.
You know?
This could potentially be used for explosives or stuff like that.
Great.
you
went down to the FBI and reviewed everything with them.
And they went, no, you can, that's cool.
Went down to, uh, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and firearms.
No, we're good.
You know, postal service.
No, everything's good.
All right.
Great.
We're going to go selling it.
And then, um, you know, rated by the consumer product safety commission.
They come in with a SWAT team with machine, woke my wife up out of bed with, you
know, an M16 pointed in her face.
Jesus Christ.
You know, it's like, we checked with everybody.
I didn't check with us so don't you guys talk so yeah one hand has no idea what the other's doing
when it comes to the government yeah no I believe that um is there any part of you that thinks that
they wanted you to come out and that they wanted uh some frameworks because to your point it's
maladaptive to have this completely shut out from like like to have a stem student who's talented
and you know why go through the complicated why i mean why make it complicated
and make me do it.
Right.
Why don't you just do it yourself?
Put out the eye level framework and say, yeah, this whole complicated scenario with
this guy coming in and hope that he does something you want that that doesn't make any sense.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, I think that's fair.
There's this John Lear interview where again, this is it's impossible to parse what the
hell is going on with that guy.
Look, I have told I have heard John Leer tell my story.
Yeah.
And it is so wrong.
It's unbelievable.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's unbelievable. I mean he puts, I mean, he inserts himself in there in a prominent position,
you know, well, I got Bob to get the job to hear this. And I went, what are you taught?
It's completely inaccurate. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he, in this interview, he says like,
yeah, Admiral McClellan, who is a Navy Admiral came to me and he was MJ level,
you know mj obviously in the ufo lore would be like the elite you know kind of committee that governs this whole
topic came to me and he said we got to get bob on the job because we know that we can hide his it's
it's in some ways it's corroborating your story because it's saying like no he was there he was
at s4 he was working on this stuff but we need to get bobs specifically because we
know we can get how plausible but not
specifically because we know we can have plausible deniability because they'll never be able to find
his MIT records. It turns out that MJ-1, the head of MJ-12, is a guy named Admiral Mike McClellan.
He wanted to get some of the information out because he didn't want to, he thought that some of this
information should be out in the public. We don't need to keep all this secrecy. So he decided,
trying to figure out a way to get it to the public.
He knew that I was a blabbermouth and I would tell anything I knew.
They investigated Bob Lazar and they knew that he was a genius, but that he had a background such that they could instantly discredit him.
And then so I thought about that for a while and I was like, what the, what is this?
And I couldn't even find an Admiral McClellan.
And then...
I've heard that name before.
You have.
That's interesting that you've heard it.
heard the name but it could have come from john lear but um i don't know i mean that the thing is
some of the stuff he's saying absolutely can be true or absolutely cannot totally i
don't no but i mean you know i love the guy he's he was he was a great friend he just thinks
differently and uh i mean it's sad he died i wish i had spent more time with him yeah uh but
after i moved it was just impractical but um yeah i mean if you're talking about statements john
Lear made.
It's tough. It's really tough to find out what's, what's accurate and what's not.
It's decoding the Voynich manuscript or something.
Yeah, yeah.
But yeah, no, he's a complicated guy. He, so I think, and we talked about this a little
last night, and maybe this is an interesting follow-up for this show, is I think he might
have been talking about a guy named Mike McConnell, who became NSA director later.
But he was involved in some S4 Area 51 stuff.
related to Dan Burrish, whose story, I think, honestly holds up a lot less than your story.
But it has to be noted because it's one other guy who's mentioning S4.
And so Mike McConnell's kind of involved there, and he was a Navy Admiral at the time.
So I think about that, and I'm like, I wonder if Mike McConnell was somewhat involved.
When you came out as Dennis, was that a shot across the bow against Dennis Mariani?
Yeah, sure was.
so you were trying to kind of get at him a little bit yeah yeah what was what were your feelings
towards him kind of personally were you resentful or were you yeah how'd you feel towards him
i guess somewhat resentful um i don't know it's hard to tap into how i felt back then yeah
why do you think and i know luigi you might have some theories here too
Why do you think Dennis wanted to meet up with you at the end of this whole saga?
At the casino.
And then you get up with him at the casino, and then you're speaking to him, and Gene Huff is looking, and he's just not even, like, looking at you.
Like, what is that about?
I don't know.
I think Dennis really had something to say.
And, uh, I don'know.
I know if people from S4 got there and changed his mind.
I don't know if he intentionally wanted me
to go out there just to get me away from the house i i really don't know because you got back to the
house and something yeah things were missing yeah anything of consequence yeah yeah and uh you
can talk about it no okay so um you know um i mean i don't i don t know it's all guesswork
yeah i mean when we when we sat down even jean huff i spoke to jean hoff about that and
Jean's perspective to that was he saw Bob walk up to to Dennis and it's important it's an important
part because I always think about the fact that Jean Huff was there Joe was also there yeah yeah
but yeah we were all we all had eyes on him yeah and and what Jean said was what you know Bob
Lazar walks up to this guy Dennis this blonde you know military looking guy and Bob's talking to
him the guy's not even looking at him and that that caught Jean's attention is like you know if
that up. What did he do? Just pick out a guy out of nowhere and starts talking. If the guy was a
nobody, he would have turned around and go like, what do you want? Yeah. He would have been like,
stop talking. Yeah. No, I mean, I kept saying, Dennis, Dennis. I'm here. You know, what
do you what? What's going on? I don't remember my exact words, but he never even looked up at me.
And, uh, yeah, I just walked over to Gene and said, he's,
I don't know what the deal is with Dennis. We both turned around and
It was gone.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
That's so interesting.
So I wonder, a part of me wonders if he himself wanted to come out after you or something,
or there was something he needed.
Yeah.
Unfortunately, it's all speculation.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
He might have been part of, well, let's get Bob out of a house.
Yeah.
He could, there's a thousand, but there's no direction to go in.
I mean, that was so striking from the documentaries.
They put your gun.
was set up in your own car and the doors were open in the in the parking lot right and then you walk
yeah that happened more than once that's scary man yeah did you yeah and i mean we would lock it and
test the door and because it had happened before and go all right that's locked locked check
check every single thing okay mario it's locked it's blocked okay we go into the gym we come back
out everything's open did you was there ever a moment where you were like over 50 i might
get assassinated yeah because it's it's why i said we have to look under the car see if there's
something wired in there or a bomb i mean we're even afraid the only thing that wasn't open um
i think was the hood where the engine was so we were afraid to open that you know and finally did
but looked over the car but yeah i was afraid there was a bomb on there or somebody wired it up
But as George said,
i think they were just screwing with me yeah mario mario you know mario talked a lot with him and
we we we've really really spent a lot of time and it's hard to trick he he also kept saying it's
really hard to like explain and express what that worry was because i was with he said i was
with bob all the time and we were scared that something was going to blow up and he says i was
so going through my hard times that I didn't care.
I just told Bob stay.
out and i'll try it and he would start the car because he was like fuck it i'm gonna do it but
you could sense that even from mario's perspective there was a real worry and so you know this is
this is a this is something that clearly was causing a lot of worry not just for you but
for mario as well because like what the hell is going on the doors are unlocked again and
you know why are they doing this so clearly you think something's it could go wrong
So they're, whether they were trying to just intimidate or do something, whatever that was, it was happening according to those guys, to these guys.
Did you get the sense that there were maybe mob ties?
Like there was some, you know, they talk about the UFO legacy program.
Sometimes like it's a cartel or like a mafia that exists outside of the state.
Did you gets the sense?
And obviously you're going back and forth from Vegas and Vegas is a hotspot.
that sort of thing did you ever get that that sense not that it was the mob per se yeah but it was
like these guys were disconnected from the government yeah they were like their own yeah they
were their own cabal you kind of get that but like even i feel like john lear was like like he had
you know there's a picture with him and g g gordon liddy do you know that is this like yeah i i
know the name i don't remember who he is he's this fbi agent who was this kind of agent provocateur
who was
was very involved in Watergate and stuff.
And you get the sense that that whole world,
like the people, the Mormons who were around Howard Hughes,
and there was a lot of mob, you know,
there's a lot mob activity there.
And it was like, they were kind of,
like you could see a civilian government official
calling them and them being like,
government official calling them and them being like, fuck off is the vibe.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
We're doing our thing.
Yeah.
That is undeniable.
Yeah.
You think so?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm a hundred percent on that.
Yeah.
I know you've also, cause you know, you live in Montreal and there's stuff there.
And I'm sure you've, you've bumped into things and people.
Yeah.
I, I always talk about it when when I talk, when I hear about all these government organizations
in government.
secrets and the intelligence community and I think a lot of researchers and a lot
of people researching this should also pay attention to what organized crime did
back then back in the 60s the 70s the 80s the 90s and how those organizations
operated and what they did because it's a very similar way of keeping secrets
and you know I think that there is some tie somewhere
I'm not saying that they're involved and they're in charge of anything.
And that's not what I'm saying, but I'm
saying there is clear motivation for somebody who's trying to keep a secret
to have ties with, with, let's say the mob, so that if ever something
or somebody does start going too rogue, well, you could basically scare that
person and say, Well, you know, these guys will come after you.
And that'll scare somebody more than a lawyer will come
after you,
That's right. Well, it seems like they were going after, they're going after your marriage and like they, it's all blackmail techniques. Like that's what it, it feels like it's compromise systems and you look at. Yeah. They weren't, they weren't taking the legal angle at all. No. No, which is really if you want to enforce something like that's, that's the way you do it. Which is pretty wild. I mean, you see this stuff with the Epstein thing too, where it's just they're just clearly is this distributed kind of compromise system.
and it deals with spooky sign.
I don't know if you're tracking any of this stuff, but like.
Yeah, I started looking into it.
That isn't it wild?
Yeah, it's it's really wild.
And then he says and it's so widespread.
It's widespread.
And here's what's crazy.
He's interviewed by Steve Bannon and Epstein is.
This is at the end of his life.
Yeah.
And he goes, why did you put Zora Ranch where you put it?
And he says, well, um, you know, a bunch of Los Alamos physicists were retiring.
And so, you know, they were kind of
of aging out and I wanted to speak with them.
Los Alamos, which was the high energy lab up in New Mexico, was losing all its scientists.
And you bought your property out of New Mexico to be near that?
Yes, because the scientists who are going to be, they cut the funding for high energy
physics.
And you're like, oh my God, how lax is our DOE, you know, Department of Energy security.
And then you realize, Bill Richardson was kind of in with the Clintons and he was a secretary
of energy.
And he's there and he's just systematically siphoning.
nuclear secrets, which, and then he goes, there's another email where he said, I, I killed ponds
back in the day or whatever. And he's talking about ponds and Fleischmann who are claiming to
get cold fusion results. And so it's like, what is Epstein dealing with cold fusion? And then
he's, he's hanging out at Harvard with the math department. None of that makes any sense. It's
weird. None. Noneof that makes sense. Really strange. I used to drive by that ranch all the time.
I lived really close to it when I lived in New Mexico. Yeah. And they always called it the
really models there yeah everyone knew that as the victoria secret ranch so you would drive by
epstein's ranch and they would call it the victorian yeah you could see i mean not right by it but as
you drive it on the road you can see it up on that yeah we know why they called it that it's
because he was close with les wexner who was the ceo and founder no i didn't know of victoria's
secret yeah oh so you'd drive by there and they wouldn't call it that everybody called it
that yeah no way we'd drive up to los alamos to pick up alpha radiation probes that my company
did and uh you know we'd come back but yeah every every time we drove out we passed by it a couple
times that's so nuts damn so what do you do you because like it's also for the people that are like
disbelieve your stuff it's like look at all this bizarre it's
like this cabal is controlling science or something you know it's so weird that is really weird
yeah and it's i get you know i'll say it it's it's just we're just talking about ebstein that's
you
This one guy, it's not just one guy.
Clearly not.
No, it is not.
It's not.
Not at all.
He's a front.
Yeah.
It's just not.
I mean, he might have been the ring leader, but it's, uh, there's a lot of people or he might
have been an extension of something much.
Yeah.
But he was obsessed with the Casimir effect and he would hold these.
Oh, he was.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
He would.
He would have been, do you know that for a fact?
Yeah.
This is all in the emails.
fact and
Yeah, there's an old colleague of mine, Eric Weinstein that talks about the Casimir effect.
And yeah, yeah.
Wow.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so this whole colleague of my and Erik Weinstein has this theory of everything
in physics where, you know, involves gauging gravity instead of quantizing gravity beyond
my pay grade.
But I find it interesting.
And Epstein like somehow knew about his theory before like just about anybody else did.
And so so Weinstein's like, how is Epstein so tied in with the Harvard math?
Department like you think it was just his hobby or something like science was his hobby and he just had
money so he uh no ability to connect to these I think there you read his emails and it's like
there's somebody behind him who knew exactly what to look for and but he didn't know he was like
a low level version of it and so he'll say things like you need to boost your physics time is
much weirder than you think. It's actually just a function of the vibration of cesium atoms
stuff you know and then he's sort of like mining people for the info and weird i mean did he he
said that he said that yeah okay which is true it is an atomic clock it's an atomic it's just a
vibrating cesium so yeah i mean it it's true i don't know if that's what time is but it's our
perception of time time is very weird isn't it wouldn't you say on in a just from a pure physics
perspective it's it's a we it's an anomaly it's strange yeah like
Like it's we can't it's the most used noun in the English language, but we can only define
it with respect to the movement of macroscopic bodies or to oscillations on an electromagnetic
wave.
But it's not like a it's a thing that we're like, it's almost like fish in a fish bowl where
like the fish are trying to even describe what water is, but they don't they can't because
they're in it.
Yeah.
And then we're in time.
No, yeah.
of it to describe it, I mean.
that's that's it and you can't be outside it's it's just a concept that makes us happy is what time
is do you think that there's something about time being weird that might help explain some of the
ufo stuff yeah i think there's there's definitely something there yeah because if gravity is
gigantic chunks that are missing from physics and uh i think some people have access to that yeah
I think so too. Yeah. I mean, the, um, cosmic red shift, the other thing that this guy, Burkhard
Heim says is that the cosmic redshift is the repulsive form of gravity. And if you look
at dark energy, you could literally just look it up. It's like, this, it's not one of the
four fundamental forces, but it's just an, you know, the universe is inflating.
I'm not sure dark energy really exists. Right. Yeah, yeah. That's, and dark matter too.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
That's and dark matter too.
I'm not I'm yeah.
Not really buying either one.
Dark matter's never been detected, but it's just there to it's a placeholder to justify
gravity's weakness.
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then I mean, to me, that's I always viewed that's what gravitons were.
That's why this caught my attention because he's back on the graviton bandwagon.
Well gravitons are interesting because as early as the 50s, you know, there's all this like
crazy hardcore anti gravity research and then it kind of disappears.
Yeah.
But you had a bunch of people saying, we're going to beat gravity.
It's right around the bend.
There's a guy named George Trimble, who is a VP at Martin Corporation's RIAS Research
for Institute for Advanced Study.
And he was this really wacky thinker.
And he worked with Lewis Whitten and probably Townsend Brown.
And you know, they would say like, it was, it's going to take us the time that it took
to build the atom bomb to basically beat gravity, and they were Stanley Desser and Richard
Arnowitz, who were famous physicists at the time.
Princeton were talking about gravitons and they were like we have a very clear theory of gravitons
and we know how to do this and the two things that come up for gravity where there's a lot of smoke
but no fire is the thing we just talked about with Bueller extremely high electric field
differentials creating thrust and then the second thing is very fast rotating spinning superconductors
those two things seem to have some but is that actually gravity so there's another force
years has gone by and i've kind of been doing my own research and uh i'm just more convinced that
that i'm right about that and can you say anything about that what do you think you're right about
that there's another force and it's not gravity and what is the if you were to characterize
that force as distinct from gravity so gravity clearly you'd have all these other byproduct
effects the photo
and what does this force do that's different?
What does it look like?
Well, it's a repelling force,
but I think it's something that works closer
to the way you would think in a science fiction movie,
you can have gravity and anti-gravity,
but you really can.
I think gravity is just an attractive force.
I think this other force, you can,
you can to simplify it, push or pull.
And I think it also affects the flow of time
exactly like gravity does.
I think that affects light.
It does, some of the observations you would have
with gravity would also overlap in this other force,
but I think, it's a unique force.
Have you ever measured this force?
Next question.
Well,
all right yeah you have yeah yeah how have you measured no no there's no follow-up question okay
okay okay okay fine fine fine um is there anything uh kind of high level that you can say as far as
your the goal of your research you know post the experience like what you would love to do
just duplicate anything just to duplicate anything yeah okay i'm sure i can you think you can
Yeah, I'm sure I can.
confident I'm a hundred percent confident yeah I I'm going to yeah have you already
gotten some interesting results yeah okay that's why I'm 100% confident
some interesting results.
Yeah.
Okay.
That's why I'm 100% confident.
Yeah.
The thing is just to scale stuff up.
Yeah.
Okay.
What do you hope your legacy is?
So like 200 years from now, a kid.
No one's going to know who I am.
I don't think that's right, man.
Think about it.
Like if there are these, you know, this lineage of technology that is completely separate.
Come on.
I'm going to be overwritten by people.
Look, there's other Bob Lazarus and things that are going to come along.
look what's happening all the people that came out since then you know there's going to be other
people like me eventually some more of this is going to come out and yeah they're amazing they're
amazing people who've come out since you first and foremost yeah yeah and there's gonna be
bigger more important ones that you just aren't gonna look back to the 80s and think you're just
gonna focus on those guys well i would put it the invert i would say if you have like a an
army of people coming out after you the fact that you're the first makes it even more interesting
I think, well,
It's more likely you'd be forgotten if no one comes out after you.
Do you hope to vindicate your own experience through your own scientific experimentation?
Yeah, I do.
Yeah I do, yeah, that's exciting.
That's cool.
Yeah, that's exciting.
That's cool.
But I have no idea what other people are doing.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But I know exactly what not to do.
That's what we did it us for.
So it's actually a big leap forward.
And you saw one hanging up against the wall?
Yeah, it was sitting on the wall in a head.
There's actually an error in the movie.
It has one hole in the perimeter.
Not two.
But yeah, there was just a hole with it bent out, clearly bent out as if it was shot from
the bottom.
Why do you think?
Oh, and it looked like it was.
Shot.
Yeah.
Interesting.
Do you think it shot with like a kinetic weapon or mechanical weapon?
No, no question.
Wow.
And do you it was a human weapon that shot it?
I don't know.
It looks like something we would have done to stand it up, shoot through it, see how we
can penetrate this material.
Whoa.
Do you have you ever heard anything about like electromagnetic pulses?
and UFOs and them taking out UFOs, taking them down or anything?
Or well, that was that was the other directive of the project it was directed
energy.
Well, yeah, it depends what you're talking about.
There's I mean, our directive was duplicate the propulsion system at any
cost is directive one and directive two was be able to disable the system at a
cost do you think then so that's somewhat directed energy but then there is also project sidekick
which is a weapon so that is also directed energy so yeah it kind of depends where you're going with
that i guess had you heard of any ufos prior to that getting shot down with directed energy
with electromagnetic pull okay i think the only thing i ever heard prior to
that was stories.
about the Roswell craft getting hit by lightning and crashing or something.
I think it's the only are there any of these stories like, like,
do you think that Roswell happened?
Are there any these stories you lend credence to?
I don't know much about the, the
Roswell crash other than, you know, what I've, what
I've heard, but it sure seems like they were working real hard to cover
something up.
That's true.
The Roswell, uh, crash was not one crash.
It was, it was not.
one crash it was it was not in one place only though it might have been a round
of two yeah yeah I really think it was there was something that happened in the
air mm-hmm and there's like debris that was scattered all over Mac Brazel's
ranch and then there was the actual pod with the beings that was crashed I
think it's like a two miles away where the hikers found it with the kids that
were hiking. And so clearly it was two different
places and the bamboo, the pieces that look like bamboo with the, the writing on it.
like bamboo with the the writing on it that was at Mac Brazel with the memory metal.
And then the pod, the only information we have of that is the bodies.
And one of them was already being eaten by some, uh, animals.
No way.
Yeah.
The body is being eaten.
One of them, one of what, from what I remember reading and at the time there's one of
them was obviously dead and it was decaying.
Like there was an, it was clearly some animals that got to it.
Wow.
So, but that was, I hadn't heard that, but the only, I had what, the only thing I remember about that was Jesse Marcel was the, yes, military. Yeah. Right. And, um, he said when, you know, they came to take pictures.
he said when you know they came to take pictures or the pictures they took he said that wasn't the
stuff that we found whoa what general rammy yeah he said yeah they replaced it with he said
that's not what we found well that's the guy and there's that iconic photo and it's him with this
like tinfoily weather balloon thing yeah yeah he claims that the material was right off to the
side of the frame it's so interesting yeah that's that's and his son who's a air force flight
home and he played with the material yeah on the crazy on the kitchen table with his wife yeah
and here's what's where stuff gets even crazier in 1949 there is a contract between batel
memorial institute and right airfield which turns into right patterson which is where the wreckage
the roswell wreckage was rumored to be taken and it's like around um alloys like titanium different
titanium alloys and this titanium nickel alloy and nitinol night no night and all yeah night
you know memory metal is basically memory metal and night and all was classified essentially showed
up in a navy lab in the 60s yeah and that's what jesse marcel describes the material as
yeah because that's that's really indestructible stuff yes and i remember him saying in its
vernacular we gave we whacked that as hard as we could you know and right and it it didn't bend and
I remember that bro.
it they tried to cut into it yeah and it just goes back into its original shape and i just actually
interviewed yeah it's one of the i mean you can take that metal and flex it a million times and it
doesn't crack it's what they i mean they use that in artificial hearts because you can it can keep
flexing and it doesn't wear it's wild and then and and then you have philip corso saying that he
helped dole out a lot of this material and
And it made it into the civil sector because of his position.
He was, you know, Pentagon's like, you
know, foreign technology desk or whatever, chief.
And so you have this contract from 49.
Nobody knew what Nittan all was, night and all was.
And then in the 60s, it appears in public randomly at a Navy lab.
It's interesting.
That's really interesting.
I never heard any of that.
And I just interviewed a guy who was a witness actually of the Virginia crash in the
1990s.
1996 in Brazil and he says the same thing he says he held the material in his hands and it went he would
kind of mess with it and then would go back into its original form so did you ever
it's original form so did you ever experience anything like that with the material with material that
would go back into its original form did you hear anything about that no other than working with
nightingale yeah but you did work with night and all i sell it but did you work you didn't work
with it at no no no okay okay okay so you can hear anything around around that there no not not
a peep did you here anything about any other materials no that's material science we're not
allowed to know that stuff oh okay so that was a whole other yeah
interesting yeah which is really stupid and you saw a photo or photos of an alien autopsy right
yeah if in fact that was true do you think it was part of the the briefing what did what did the
photos look like i guess if you want to call it a gray something small it had a t cut in the chest
and there was one single organ removed from the chest
Was that kind of a visceral experience for you?
Was that, kind of, you know, gnarly or were you like, ah, whatever?
You know, at this point I'm going, what am I looking through?
Yeah.
You know?
It was just kind of all glancing through, like, give me a break.
Yeah.
So.
There were rumors that the program was going to maybe move to Indonesia or Southeast
Asia when you were leaving.
Is that?
No, no.
They were anxious to move the project out of there completely.
And, you know, ideally they said,
And, you know, ideally, they said they would love to go out to the South Pacific, maybe
Kwajalein Island or something, but they said the expenses would have been so great, it's
just impossible.
But they just wanted to get away from eyes.
It's just too close to things.
If you had to guess, do you think that the program is completely out of Area 51 and
in some foreign place now?
Yeah, I don't believe it's there anymore.
That would make sense.
Yeah.
I believe it's there.
I think that moved way long ago.
Yeah.
And you discovered Element 115, right?
It wasn't discovered.
It's something Barry and I were working on.
Okay.
So, I mean, you can't really say I discovered it.
Okay.
Okay.
You know.
Oh, I thought your contribution was that you just-
Our contribution.
It was what I was doing.
Okay.
Okay.
Yeah.
But what I can't say, it was just me.
What tech?
But it was the, God, what the hell was it that we were using?
Oh, atomic absorption spectroscopy.
Atomic absorption spectroscopy.
Yeah.
And you did that.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, we had the equipment there.
We also had something to do X-ray diffraction too.
Wow.
And yeah, it wasn't, Barry was much more familiar with the equipment.
Wow.
But, um, and you, but you don't know the exact isotope?
No.
Did you?
exact isotope no did you know it at one point like when you discovered it yeah yeah you did yeah but
you forgot the yeah i have i have no idea oh man because that would be that yeah i know it would
really help yeah it would it also be a nobel prize for you it would be like oh my god they figured
out like a new isotope at that level but i'd have to be able to produce it or sure you know right
right right so it doesn't matter anyway yeah i mean but you know the lab in dermstadt germany
few atoms of 115 so i mean that they discovered 115 yes so i
mean they they made it you know we yeah we recognized it yeah yeah so but if you
i don't think it would help you because it's not like you know the way we try to
synthesize um you know new elements is you know taking ions and smashing them
together and it's kind of whatever comes out comes out it's
It's not like you can go, we're going to make a specific isotope.
and make it all stick together.
It's just like, you know, it's the old smashing the Swiss watch against a concrete wall.
Ooh, look what came out.
You know, that's it.
If you possibly took a little bit home though, could you do some of those techniques?
No, I couldn't.
You couldn't because you don't have the equipment.
Yeah.
You need the equipment, I mean, you need the equivalent, like,
you know.
Accelerators and things.
That's something like that.
So you wouldn't have, the stable isotope at home or you do.
or maybe well i don't have it at my house okay if that's what you're asking but you do you
didn't you at one point maybe take it home yeah so that but then are we recording
yeah but no um so no okay okay okay yeah but then can't but then couldn't you figure out
the isotope if theoretically you did or now yeah okay yeah you could all i'd have to do
Oh, I see. That's a bummer.
I hosted a debate between Eric Weinstein and Eric Davis.
Eric Weinstein's this former colleague of mine who's a physicist,
and then Eric Davis is this other guy in UFO world who focuses on exotic propulsion.
Weinstein said that he was kind of exasperated.
He was like, why are there no theoretical physicists
on the program but you talk about theoretical physicists on site at s4 oh for sure okay i think
they were exhausted by him and i think they they kept going over that road and never got anywhere
interesting and they were they were looking for just let's just do something out of left field
and see what we come up with so um no i don't know again that's what made me think this isn't
gravity at all this is a new force entirely yeah and you know what i found interesting to you is
you
you said Bismuth seemed to have come up.
Like that was something.
There is something about Bismuth.
There's something about Bismuth.
You might be starting to notice a through line starting to emerge in this conversation,
and it keeps leading back to the same place.
To put it bluntly, Bob's work at S4 looks a whole lot like all of the documented knowledge
we have on anti-gravity experiments done in the last 100 years.
Now again, these claims don't lie in the realm of conventional proven science.
proverbial fire, there is a whole lot of smoke around them. I'm talking not only of the experiments
of Townsend Brown, but of Eugene Pocletnov, Ning Li, and others. And one single element might
tie all of these stories together. Bismuth. There's a reason why Bob Lazar kept hearing about it
at S4. Here's why Bismuth matters. We'll break down the science as clearly as we can.
It starts with something called a K-factor. A K-factor,
or dielectric constant is simply a material's ability to store and discharge electric fields.
Now this has important implications for historical anti-gravity experiments. You see, the higher
the K-factor, the more thrust or propulsion you see in Townsend Brown's capacitor experiments.
Brown spent his career searching for high K-materials that could amplify the effect he'd
discovered. Bismuth is one of them, and it's often mentioned in the context of his anti-gravity work.
from this guy, Louis Whitten, who's at RIAS,
which is Martin Corporation, pre-Lockheed merger,
their anti-gravity outfit,
where they were studying sort of
the most exotic propulsion modalities.
And he says in this interview
with the American Institute of Physics,
there's a guy named Townsend who claimed
to have an isotope of bismuth
that repelled instead of attracted.
Material that works well
for historical antigravity experiments
comes up in the UFO reverse engineering program
Go figure, but it gets weirder.
Bismuth and element 115, miscovium, share the same number of valence electrons.
Valence electrons are the electrons in the outermost shell of an atom, the ones that
determined how an element bonds, reacts, and behaves chemically.
Bismuth has five.
Miscoviam, or element 115 has five, they sit in the same column of the periodic table,
group 15, which means they have essentially the same
chemical personality, the same bonding geometry,
the same family of crystal structures,
the same tendency to form the layered compounds
that produce the most exotic quantum behavior
known to material science.
Lazar described Element 115 as the fuel source
for the craft's propulsion system.
Mind you, this was in 1989,
before Element 115 had ever been synthesized or named.
When it finally was synthesized in 2003,
octogen, a group 15 element, the same chemical family as bismuth.
And Bismuth is basically the most electromagnetically bizarre stable element on Earth.
That's either the most chemically literate lucky guess in history, or it isn't a guess
at all.
Now here's where the science gets genuinely strange.
Bismith is one of the most unusual elements on the periodic table.
Most high K materials are passive.
They sit there, holding charge, and do nothing else.
Bismeth is different.
it fights back.
Expose bismuth to a magnetic field,
and instead of being attracted,
the way iron pushes towards a magnet, it pushes away.
This property is called diamagnetism,
and Bismuth has more of it
than any other stable element on Earth,
not slightly more, dramatically,
anomalously, inexplicably more.
The reason lives inside the atom itself.
Every electron does two things simultaneously.
simultaneously.
It orbits the nucleus like a planet around a star, and it spins on its own axis like a
tiny top.
In lighter elements, these two motions barely register each other, but Bismuth sits near
the bottom of the periodic table at element 83, one of the heaviest stable elements that
exists.
And in super-heavy elements, something extraordinary happens.
The electrons in the outer shell move so fast that they enter what physicists call the
They're traveling at a meaningful fraction of the speed of light.
And when something moves that fast, the universe starts playing by different rules.
At those speeds, Einstein's physics takes over from Newtons.
One consequence is that these screaming, hurling outer electrons generate a powerful magnetic field just from their own motion.
And that magnetic field slams into their own spin.
This is a process called spin-orbit coupling.
strong, so strong that bismuth's electrons become, in a sense, magnetically self-aware.
Generating an opposing field in response to anything applied to them from the outside.
So that's why bismuth has anomalous diamagnetism.
The electrons aren't just passive, they're pushing back.
The most amazing thing is leaning into it, putting all your force on that, nothing moves at all.
When the reactor's off, you can easily slide it.
This also makes bismuth a natural topological
dopant, meaning when you introduce it into certain crystalline materials, it induces what physicists
call topologically protected quantum states. These are electron states so geometrically locked
into the structure of the material that they can't be destroyed by disorder or impurities.
They are, in a very real sense, protected by the shape of reality itself.
Element 115, with the same five outer electrons as bismuth, would have dramatically stronger
relativistic effects, and it would theoretically be an even more powerful
topological dopant. Best hosted physicists predict, and calcogenide crystal
structures, which happen to be the exact crystal family that bismuth-based
topological insulators already prefer. Same column, same electrons, the dial just
turned up to a level we've never engineered.
Okay, I know what you're thinking.
How do you get from this exotic chemistry jargon to UFO propulsion or a force that bends spacetime?
Well, here's where the chemistry ends and something bigger begins.
In Einstein's general relativity, energy and momentum in all forms,
including the energy stored in fast-spinning relativistic electrons,
technically curves spacetime.
Every electron is, in the most literal physical sense,
sense, warping the fabric of the universe around.
around it.
Now for ordinary matter, this effect is so incomprehensibly tiny, it effectively doesn't
exist.
But a small group of serious physicists began asking dangerous questions in the 1990s.
What if, instead of spinning randomly in all directions, there are gravitational effects
cancelling each other into noise?
You could align them into a
each other into noise, you could align them into a single coherent state, all pointing in the same
direction, all pushing together. This was the life's work of Dr. Ning Li, a physicist who dared
to dabble in anti-gravity. More specifically, she worked in gravitomagnetic theory. Li was a woman
who eventually left her position at the University of Alabama-Huntsville to work full-time at
it effectively vanished from public view.
And the chair of her department at University of Alabama Huntsville, Larry Smalley,
was so high conviction in her work that he left with her.
Before she died, Lee proposed that in superconductors,
materials where electrons surrender their individual identities
and merge into a collective quantum state,
the gravitomagnetic effect of those electrons,
normally washed away by thermal chaos,
They'd become coherent, directional.
She was trying to build a gravity engine in a laboratory.
Let's compare that with Bob Lazar's work on UFOs in the 80s.
Years before Ning Li's work ever became public,
Lazar described three cylindrical emitters
at the base of a craft.
The emitters at base of Lazar's craft
didn't produce thrust in the traditional sense.
They didn't push against air or expel mass.
They generated a directed alteration
of the gravitation
gravitational field itself, that the craft would then just fall into, not propulsion, geometry.
The craft didn't move through space, it literally bent space, and space carried it.
That description, organized field-generating devices producing a directional gravitational
effect by aligning and focusing a force that normally cancels itself to zero, is structurally,
almost precisely what Ning Li was theorizing in a laboratory thousands of miles away.
using completely different source material,
arriving at exactly the same place years later.
When the craft is in operation,
there is a high voltage detectable on the skin of the craft.
detectable on on the skin of the craft and then there's the hull of the
craft lazar said that he believed the craft's
hull material was an electorate basically a material that permanently
stores an electric field the electrical equivalent of a permanent
magnet i think the material the craft is made
from is an electric and so it always just like a
a magnet always has a magnetic field to it an electric always has an electrostatic
field to it. Interesting.
I think that's certainly something important.
Again, bismuth titanate is one of the finest
electric materials known,
used in high temperature sensor applications
precisely because of its stability.
Now, if you were designing a whole material
for a craft that needed to interact
with gravity wave emitters,
maintain a permanent electric field,
and respond to both electric and magnetic stimuli
simultaneously, the material that checks every single box
is bismuth ferrite.
That's right, again with the bismuth.
It's a material that is simultaneously ferroelectric and magnetic,
where the two properties talk to each other,
where you can control one with the other.
No other readily available material sits at the intersection of diamagnetism,
topological insulator behavior, high K dielectrics,
electric properties and multi-feroic coupling simultaneously.
But bismith does.
And a theoretical stable version of element 115
might do all of those things on steroids.
Bismuth sits right at the edge
of where relativistic electron behavior
begins to dominate everything.
By the time you get to Moscovium,
you might have full-fledged space-time engineering.
And then what's really interesting
is Gary Nolan has this magnesium-bismuth piece
in his lab at Stanford.
You'd need some sort of motive
know with in certain cases heavier elements create isotope ratios that you just don't find or it
doesn't make any sense from like and then it also the thing was found alongside a like an observed
anomaly in the sky and a crash and it was like in the 50s or 60s like one of one of which was
literally a beach in brazil uh ubatuba and the similarity between brown and beulers anti-gravity
and lazar's sports model don't stop there brown would use dc pulsing and like you know
kind of high climb rates of the voltage so that the voltage would there'd be a
steep climb rate where it would you know increase very very sharply the
micro sizing wave guides for terahertz you could have very high frequency you
know energy going into the craft there's something about bismuth I think that
yes that yeah that's undiscovered yes and and so much that we're unable to do
because it's at the limit you know of our technology
at the limit, you know, of our technology.
Bismuth at S4, Bismuth in Townsend Brown's experiments,
Bismuth's properties in Ning Li's gravidomagnetic theory,
Bismuth as an ideal hull material for a UFO exactly like the one Lazar described,
Bismuth and the UFO samples that Stanford Professor Gary Nolan is analyzing right now.
The preponderance of evidence now and the Department of Defense admitting that these things
are real, that the data is real, not what the, there's no conclusions. Yeah. The data is
real. There's so much more than there was 40 years ago. I mean, all these guys are at the
cunning edge. All my information is so old and probably outdated. So who knows how the craft
operate now or what kind of craft they're using or if they're even manned. So,
So I think everything I know is outdated.
It's just interesting to look back at.
I don't take any money from this stuff.
And as far as attention, I hate fucking attention.
I don's like being on shows.
I just want to kind of hide in the corner and do my own thing.
So I got enough hugs when I was a kid.
Oh.
And do you feel like you've, you know, on the first Rogan episode,
had migraines do you feel like you've suffered like your anxiety levels are higher than they
they would be having five heart attacks since i had was on the hoke rogan's and and my arteries
are clear it's all stress i'm sorry i just had uh um shingles all through my face almost made
me go blind again was from stress it's um yeah it's just just wears you down over time i hope you
know you're you're loved and approved
appreciated and uh you should be able to just zone out the world with where you're at in life right
now and just enjoy the the fruits of this you know that would be cool i am so hoping to be able
to retire at some point where i don't have to deal with insane customers or yeah i could just
sit at home and read books like this and yeah i think that time is very very soon and i think
It's the best use of your brain power, too, because I want to see...
I'd actually like to...
get back into this stuff that'd be amazing well i'll send you interesting people okay yeah well
i'll yeah i'll consume everything you can send i love it oh yeah to be careful what you wish for
um well bob luigi this was a total honor and you should be so proud because i know you were into
this stuff i feel very lucky when people say like oh like you should feel vindicated they'll say
What the fuck are you talking?
I was like, I got very lucky with the timing of like when I got into this stuff.
But truly, I speak to you and I'm like, oh my God.
Like the, there are people like yourself who've been into this
stuff for decades in a totally thankless way.
Like not only thankless, but less than thankless.
Ostracized, exiled, laughed at constantly.
And so to anybody out there saying Luigi's.
cashing in on a, you know, a movie or something like that, fuck off. Like, you don't know what
you're talking about. It is, it's poetic justice and karma that you made this movie, truly. So
I want you to know that, that. I appreciate that. Yeah, man. Did you ever think that we'd be here
now that like, we'll be, You know, on, on our podcast, watching you on Joe Rogan with Bob
yesterday. Hi. When you guys were talking, I was reading
a message from my sister, Veronica, who's been, it's hard for me to see it that way because
you can't imagine everything that happened. And for me, to get it from her is like the biggest
success because I put her in danger because of this. And I didn't know if it was going to work.
still don't know where it's going but we we just went for it knowing that you know all the past
there's a lot of negative associated to it and i'm so proud of the team i'm proud of
chris mattoe that's like my right hand and all it wouldn't exist if it wasn't for chris
It wouldn't exist if it wasn't for Veronica. It would not exist, if it was for Emily that was at the office taking care of her.
everything. She, we all know who that is. It wouldn't exist for Vanessa to be doing all this
minutiae work online and finding all, we wouldn't have found the Ed Teller tape if it wasn't for
Vanessa. And this was scary. This is, this project depleted your company to zero, to zero. And we
were attacked. Nobody knows this, but we were attacked ferociously for over a year and a half.
Yeah. And we're, I know the full
story and we probably can't get too into the weeds but i'll just say high level there was some really
crazy scary that occurred with you on an institutional yeah like debanking level kind of thing
big time where it's like what sort of power do these people have as far as the antibodies
you know going against you and unbelievable stuff yeah stuff that all the
if you say it it sounds so crazy that you don't want to say it because people
won't yeah they're like give me a break come on yeah have you have you experienced
that your whole life have you experience like little things oh yeah yeah any and
I didn't expect this to happen to Luigi yeah not coming from those people yeah
getting you know re or demanding Luigi we want all your communications with Bob
Lazar yeah on a court document on a core document yeah we want what the hell are
talking about. Yeah. Have you ever gotten something like, sir, we can't accept your payment here.
You're like, what? Anything like that? It's a little weird. What do you mean? We can't
accept. Like something like that. You know, something like there's something going on in the
background of some routine thing you're trying to do. Go to a bank. You go to, you know, a store.
Oh, and we're just, we don't want to deal with it. We don't wanna deal with you. And you're
like, why? Yeah. I mean, that has that. That was a long time ago. A couple of things like that
I don't remember specifically.
But people kind of messing with you.
But yeah, on an official level, they said, you know, you're radioactive.
We don't want to deal with you, yeah.
It's tough, man.
Well, you found the one gig you could get, which is selling this,
you know sort of a lot of this crazy stuff to, it's cool.
Well, this has been such an honor.
It's cool.
Well, this has been such an honor.
I really appreciate you both.
And it's always fun coming.
It's always funny, Jesse.
It's all always great, man.
Okay, so there are orange-reddish UFOs that have been flying around Area 51 since the
80s and 90s that wobble like they're on a wave at low altitudes.
The sports model UFO Bob worked on might use principles similar to documented anti-gravity
research and crafts of non-human organisms.
origin are being recovered at the bottom of our oceans all over the world by the Navy.
Bob Lazar will either be forgotten entirely by history, as he predicts, or as I predict,
he'll be heralded as a canary in the coal mine, the forerunner in a stampede of revolutionary
new science.
Whether you believe or disbelieve his story, it should be treated as a puzzle, with very
real truths underlying it meant to be discovered by those who take the initiative.
So if you think there's something to any of this, don't let up.
As the first man on the moon, Neil Armstrong once cryptically said,
There are great ideas undiscovered.
Breakthroughs available to those who can remove one of truth's protective layers.
Layers, layers, layers.
If you're still watching, and you made it through all of the exotic UFO science,
you're one of the first to hear about this.
We just dropped a new limited merch collection.
Two T's, one off-white, one vintage black, plus hat.
The design has a timeless retro future feel.
You can wear it every day.
If you've been watching the show lately, you've probably already seen me wearing it.
This is a limited run, so when it's gone, it's done.
Head to AmericanAlchemymerch.com to grab
the Believe drop today.
And while you're there, the Cowboy UFOT is a fan favorite we always keep in stock, along
with the Atomic Age design.
Thank you all so much for following and supporting the show.