[@joerogan] Joe Rogan Experience #2343 - Joe Pistone

Link: https://youtu.be/ljqm4jVfcG4

Short Summary

Number One Takeaway: To be successful undercover, you must remain true to yourself and your values, rather than trying to become someone you're not.

Executive Summary: Former FBI agent Joe Pistone, also known as Donnie Brasco, recounts his deep undercover infiltration of the Mafia, emphasizing the importance of knowing the enemy, maintaining your own identity, and earning trust through street smarts and understanding Mafia culture. Pistone spent six years undercover, eventually becoming a candidate for membership, before the operation was shut down.

Key Quotes

Here are four quotes from the Joe Rogan Experience podcast with Donnie Brasco, representing valuable insights and strong opinions:

1. "My mindset in Undercover is I'm not dying for a gangster, right? I'll die for a citizen. I'll take a beaten for a citizen, but not for a gangster." This is a key philosophical point explaining how he justified his actions.

2. "You don't have to act tough. You don't have to talk tough. You just got to back up what you say, and that's it. Never say anything that you can't back up." This speaks to the importance of authenticity and credibility in undercover work, advice that extends beyond just infiltrating the mob.

3. "The only thing that's changed in Undercover is building your legend because of the internet, right? Nothing else has changed." This highlights how technology has fundamentally shifted the landscape of undercover work, especially due to backstopping challenges.

4. "I think our problem is we don't study our enemy. "He emphasizes the importance of understanding the organization's structure, members, and crime types, mirroring "The Art of War".

Detailed Summary

Here's a detailed summary of the Joe Rogan podcast featuring Donnie Brasco, broken down into bullet points, excluding ads and promotional content:

Introduction and Background:

• The guest is Donnie Brasco, famous for his undercover work infiltrating the Mafia.
• Brasco is cautious about revealing his current location due to his past.
• He started his career in Naval Intelligence for three years.
• Brasco always wanted to work in law enforcement and became friends with FBI agents while working in Philadelphia.
• He joined the FBI after his tour with Naval Intelligence.
• Brasco grew up in an all-Italian neighborhood in Patterson, New Jersey and knew "wise guys" and their families. This familiarity with the streets helped him later in his career.
• His early FBI assignments included bank robberies, fugitives, and gambling cases.
• His first undercover assignment was infiltrating a gambling house in Jacksonville, Florida, which involved a craps game with gangsters.

Early Undercover Work:

• Brasco was comfortable in gambling settings due to his upbringing.
• He identified major players and operators of gambling houses.
• Many suspects in these cases pleaded guilty, avoiding trials and limiting Brasco's need to testify.
• His initial undercover work didn't involve significant safety risks.
• He also worked on cases involving stolen art, stocks, and bonds.
• He spent approximately 4-5 years doing these types of undercover operations.

Infiltration of Car Theft Ring:

• The FBI in New York approached him about a large car theft case in Tampa, Florida.
• An informant flipped and offered to introduce an undercover agent into the crew, which operated up and down the East Coast.
• Brasco received a crash course on how to steal cars, including hotwiring, disabling alarms, and using a slim jim.
• The operation began in 1973 or 1974.
• He worked undercover in this crew for about a year and a half, stealing cars and tractor-trailers.
• The informant needed assurance that his son would be released from trouble, motivating his help.
• Brasco went to trial in Florida for this case.
• He had a funny encounter with the wife of the man he delivered a stolen Mercedes to while in court for the case.

The Deep Undercover Mob Operation - Preparation:

• Upon returning to New York, Brasco was approached by his supervisor, Guy Bara, about infiltrating the mob to investigate truck hijackings.
• The goal was to target fences, the individuals who buy and sell stolen goods acquired in the truck hijackings.
• Because government rules prohibited undercover agents from having a profession based on violence, Brasco decided to portray a jewel thief.
• He attended diamond and precious gem school to gain the necessary expertise.
• He also learned lock picking, safe cracking, and alarm system bypassing from FBI tech experts.
• Everything was done under the name Donnie Brasco, including renting an apartment, buying a car, and setting up utilities and phone service.
• He obtained a social security number and other documentation under the alias.
• Brasco frequented specific bars and restaurants in New York where fences and wise guys were known to gather, aiming to get seen and initiate conversations.
• His backstory was that he was an orphan who moved between Florida and California, eliminating the need to produce family members.
• The orphanage in his backstory was one that burned down, destroying all records and preventing verification.
• The operation was seven days a week to avoid raising suspicion.

The Deep Undercover Mob Operation - Making Contact:

• Brasco would go to a particular restaurant frequented by "wise guys" and their girlfriends, where he would sit at the bar.
• After repeated encounters with a woman whose boyfriend was absent, he took the precaution of notifying the bartender "on record" that he did not solicit the contact.
• The boyfriend was eventually "whacked" and she was now available.
• He eventually began conversing with "Charlie" (nickname only), who invited him to an all-night card game run by wise guys.
• Brasco then used a packet of diamonds to establish himself as a jewel thief to Charlie, by giving him the package at a street price where Charlie could make a profit.
• Charlie successfully fenced the diamonds and then introduced Brasco as "Donnie the Jeweler" to Jilly, a member of the Colombo family.
• Brasco then started hanging out with the Colombos.

Gaining Trust with Colombos:

• Brasco did some hijacking jobs and unloaded trucks for the Colombos, as if he wasn't producing, he wouldn't be worth anything to them.
• He was introduced to Frankie and Paty, Colombo associates (Paty was a "made guy"), recently released from prison.
• Frankie and Paty tested Brasco by proposing two "scores" (criminal jobs). Brasco declined both citing alarm systems and safes too difficult to bypass.
• Paty pulled a gun on Brasco in the backroom of the club, threatening to kill him if he didn't prove his skills as a thief.
• Brasco could not disrespect Paty as he was a "made guy" and violence against a made guy would get him killed.
• Brasco punched Frankie (who was not a made guy) to save face. Paty then assaulted Brasco.
• Brasco told Jilly that he could no longer associate with them to prevent further escalations and potentially put himself in danger.

Working with the Bonanno Family:

• Brasco was introduced to Tony Mirror of the Bonanno family, a known "psycho," and helped him shake down nightclub owners.
• After Mirror berated a waitress and then tore into Brasco in front of others, Brasco threatened to stab him if he was ever talked to like that again.
• Brasco was then introduced to Lefty Ruggiero, another made guy in the Bonannos.
• Mirror was sent back to prison and Brasco started working closely with Ruggiero.
• Ruggiero introduced Brasco to Mike Sabella, the captain of their crew, who officially acknowledged Brasco as being with Ruggiero.
• After one year undercover, he was fully entrenched with the Bananos.

Milwaukee Operation - Marrying Two Mafia Families:

• Brasco was asked to assist an undercover operation in Milwaukee that was struggling to get established.
• The undercover agent, Tai Cobb, was a friend of Brasco's and struggling to get local bars and restaurants to use his vending machine company.
• Brasco proposed that he could use his Bonanno connections to broker a sit-down with the Balistrieri family in Milwaukee.
• Brasco ran the proposal by Ruggiero and Sabella, who agreed to send Brasco and Ruggiero to assess the Milwaukee operation and gauge Cobb's financial resources.
• Brasco and Ruggiero visited Milwaukee and met Cobb, who claimed to have a warehouse full of machines and $200,000 in the bank.
• Sabella instructed that Cobb had to be represented as a member of the Bananos in good standing for the past 10 years.
• Brasco, Ruggiero, and Cobb met with the Balistrieri family in Milwaukee.
• The Balistrieri boss then invited them to dinner at his house.
• They agreed to a 50/50 partnership, with the Balistrieris directing Cobb where to place his machines.
• Brasco married two mafia families through Chicago, the Bananos and the Bellisaries.
• After a few months, the Milwaukee operation went cold, as the Balistrieris stopped taking Cobb's calls.
• The FBI discovered that Cobb had previously been a cop, which was likely why the Balistrieris shut him out.
• Brasco was "punished" by being banned from the Bonanno family Christmas party.

Santo Trafficante and Second Marriage of Families:

• After the Galante was whacked and Sabella lost his captainship, Brasco and Ruggiero were placed under Sunny Black Napoliano in Brooklyn.
• Brasco got another call from the bureau who had an operation going in Tampa, Florida.
• They asked if he could do the same thing he did in Milwaukee and bring the Bananos in.
• The undercover agents in Tampa wanted access to Santo Trafficante.
• Brasco got Ruggiero and Sunny Black Napoliano to invest into the Tampa based night club.
• With the partnership set, Brasco met with Santo Trafficante and another Mafia marriage was formed.

Casino Night and Arrest:

• The new partners worked together to have a casino night to benefit the local veterans of foreign wars.
• However, the local sheriff's department became aware of the operation and began arresting guests.
• Brasco and others were arrested for gambling charges.

Sunny Black and the Contract:

• The government decides to shut down the operation because a hit was going to take place.
• Brasco gets called into Sunny Black's office where Sunny makes a proposal for membership into the Banano family.

Closing the Operation:

• The FBI closed the operation July 27th.
• Brasco was undercover for six years.

Overseas Undercover Work:

• After the case, Brasco worked overseas for Scotland Yard on a credit card manufacturing case involving the Chinese Triads.
• Brasco worked with them to get into a location in another country, which helped get evidence to crack the location down.

Reflections on Undercover Work:

• Brasco emphasizes the importance of being oneself while undercover, avoiding the temptation to act like a stereotypical gangster.
• He advises against young undercover agents thinking they need to be heavy drinkers or drug users to fit in.
• Brasco believes his success stemmed from not falling in love with the undercover persona and drawing from his street smarts.

Life After Undercover:

• After the case, the commission put a $500,000 contract on Brasco.
• The FBI told every boss that they better not think of trying to cash in on it.
• The only thing Brasco was worried about was some "cowboy" thinking they were going to take him out.

Looking Back:

• Most of his old partners are dead.
• Nobody ever became an informant.

The Movie Donnie Brasco:

• Brasco met Johhny Deep three or four months before the movie start shooting.
• Johhny Deap just absorbed everything like a sponge.
• In the movie Johnny Depp Slaps his wife where it never happened.

Post-FBI Life:

• Now Brasco works with the Southern California Gang Conference and is writing another book.