[@joerogan] Joe Rogan Experience #2419 - John Lisle

Link: https://youtu.be/ZrUQdGi0HF8

Short Summary

This Joe Rogan Experience podcast features an interview with the author of "Project Mind Control," a book detailing the CIA's MK Ultra program and the lack of accountability for those involved. The discussion covers the program's origins, experiments, ethical failures, and its lasting impact on society, also touching on the interviewee's research process and his previous book on related topics within the OSS. They explore various facets of MK Ultra and broader themes of government oversight, human psychology, and the dangers of unchecked power.

Key Quotes

Here are five quotes extracted from the transcript that I found particularly insightful:

1. "One of the things I I really try to focus on in the book, especially the second half in the of the book, are the consequences of MK Ultra in society, but also just what happened to these people afterwards. The victims of MK Ultra, they launched several lawsuits against the CIA and basically really nothing much came out of it. They got paid a little bit of money, but the people who perpetrated MK Ultra, they didn't really face any consequences."

   • This quote highlights the lack of accountability for those who conducted MK Ultra, a central theme and tragic element.

2. "Even just the threat of giving someone a truth drug turned out to be a lot more effective than any drug that they actually tried out."

   • This is a surprising and insightful point about the psychology of interrogation and the power of perceived control.

3. "Dread the day when the press sings nothing but the praises of those in power and Congress says that there are no abuses to investigate. It might seem like that's utopia, but that's the day that you have lost all of your liberties."

   • This is a powerful statement about the importance of a free press and governmental oversight, serving as a critical warning about potential dangers.

4. "His idea to bring someone down to the blank slate was to induce enough stress that they forgot who they formerly were. And so you reduce them to the blank slate and then the CIA is really interested in if you could do that then you could form them into whatever."

   • This chillingly summarizes the core objective of some MK Ultra experiments and how some scientists thought they could help the CIA mold people into what they wanted, erasing their personalities through stress.

5. "And so he ends up going back to the Allen Memorial as a patient. And she thought to herself that it's going to be okay. they're not going to do the electric shock to me because you had to sign a consent form in, you know, for that to happen to you. You know, the people who are signing the consent forms, they don't know how bad it's actually going to be. They're just signing their name. But she knows I haven't signed a consent form, so they can't do that to me. But it turns out in the time since she went to the hospital and came back, they had stopped doing the consent forms, and he would just do this on whoever."

   • This story encapsulates the unchecked power and disregard for ethical boundaries that characterized MK Ultra, even against those who had participated in the programs themselves.

Detailed Summary

Okay, here's a detailed summary of the Joe Rogan Experience podcast episode based on the provided transcript, using bullet points:

Key Topics:

• MK Ultra: The CIA's mind control program, its origins, activities, victims, and long-term consequences.
• Sydney Gotautle: The head of MK Ultra, his motivations, and methods.
• Ethics and Oversight: The lack of oversight that allowed MK Ultra to occur and the failures of accountability.
• Truth Drugs and Interrogation: Experiments with various drugs (LSD, heroin, THC) to find "truth serums" and enhance interrogation techniques.
• The Human Element: The psychological motivations of the individuals involved, including their rationalizations and lack of empathy.
• CIA Operations: Discussions on various CIA activities beyond MK Ultra, such as attempts to assassinate Fidel Castro and using cocaine for black ops.
• Conspiracy Theories: The nature of conspiracy theories, the blurring of lines between fact and fiction, and the impact of disinformation.
• Cognitive Dissonance: The human tendency to rationalize beliefs, even in the face of contradictory evidence.
• The Problem with Power: Dangers with unchecked power and no oversight.
• Secrecy: Vicious cycle of secrecy with the CIA.

Arguments and Information Discussed:

• The guest (John) is a historian and author of a book called "Project Mind Control," which focuses on MK Ultra, Sydney Gotautle, and the program's impact.
• The guest became interested through his PhD research on science attaches in the State Department and their connections to intelligence.
• He previously wrote "The Dirty Tricks Department," about Stanley Lovl, who conducted drug experiments within the OSS (precursor to the CIA).
• Sydney Gotautle looked to Stanley Lovl's experiments as a blueprint for MK Ultra.
• The initial motivation for MK Ultra was to find ways to control minds and obtain information, such as a truth serum.
• Truth drug experiments began before MK Ultra with the OSS, including the use of THC acetate.
• The program experimented with LSD, psilocybin, heroin, and other drugs on subjects, including prisoners (at the Lexington Narcotic Farm) and unwitting citizens.
• The CIA explored various ways to discredit Fidel Castro, including dosing his cigars with LSD and using depilatories to make his beard fall out.
• Assassination attempts on Castro include using an explosive shell and poisoning a diving suit.
• The conversation touches on the British military's LSD experiments.
• MK Ultra consisted of 149 sub-projects, often outsourced to researchers in hospitals, prisons, and universities.
• The program's subjects were often unaware they were being experimented on by the CIA.
• Psychological experiments, such as those led by Euan Cameron, involved psychic driving, sensory deprivation, chemical comas, and electric shock.
• Euan Cameron believed he could erase someone's personality and rebuild it.
• Mary Morrow's story is highlighted as an example of the unethical and damaging experiments under Euan Cameron.
• Many victims of MK Ultra sued the CIA but received minimal compensation, and those responsible faced few or no consequences.
• The depositions from those lawsuits, found in the Library of Congress, formed the basis of the guest's book.
• It's important to enable checks and balances to the government.
• Secrecy can lead to reckless behavior and lack of accountability.
• The importance of external and internal oversight within organizations like the CIA is emphasized.
• The discussion touches on Operation Midnight Climax, where the CIA ran a brothel with two-way mirrors and cameras to observe the effects of drugs on unsuspecting Johns.
• George White, a Bureau of Narcotics officer, ran Operation Midnight Climax and enjoyed the immoral aspects of the work. He wrote of it.
• The guest points out that Sydney Gotautle is less malicious because he thinks that he is doing this for a patriotic reason.
• MK Ultra was not a successful program and very few if any, benefits.
• Former state department employee, John Marks filed a Freedom of Information Act request for information on the former drug experiments.
• Frank Lainger found the the files that Sydney Gotautle had not destroyed.
• Frank Lainger found six or seven boxes of material in a CIA archives center and turned them in.
• Also, if members of congress were just to know about what the executive branch was doing it would solve a lot of those problems.
• The guest shares some of his personal journey in researching and writing about these subjects and how it has shaped his skeptical worldview.
• The "Operation Fantasia" about glowing foxes was described in the OSS as a means to demoralize the Japanese.
• Many people lost their lives and had their lives ruined and the U.S government never got any value from the MK Ultra program.

This summary captures the core points and arguments presented in the conversation.