[@lexfridman] Julia Shaw: Criminal Psychology of Murder, Serial Killers, Memory & Sex | Lex Fridman Podcast #483

Link: https://youtu.be/7OLVwZeMCfY

Short Summary

Here's a concise executive summary of the YouTube video transcript:

The Lex Fridman Podcast features a conversation with criminal psychologist Julia Shaw, exploring the continuum of "evil" personality traits (psychopathy, sadism, narcissism, Machiavellianism) and the psychological factors behind harmful behavior. Shaw emphasizes the importance of empathy, even for those deemed "evil," to understand and ultimately prevent harmful actions, highlighting how social constructs, memory distortion, and environmental factors contribute to crime, including environmental crimes.

Key Quotes

Here are five direct quotes from the Julia Shaw interview that represent significant insights:

1. "We all have the capacity to kill people and murder people and do other terrible things. The question is, why we don't do those things rather than why we do those things quite often." (This highlights the continuum of "evil" and focuses on the factors that prevent harmful behavior.)
2. "There's nothing inherent to anything that makes it evil. And so, I also think that we need to dismantle that and empathize with people we call evil because if we're saying that this is the worst kind of act or worst kind of manifestation of what somebody can be... we want to stop that behavior from happening, and the only way we're going to do that is if we understand what led that person to come to that situation and to engage in that behavior." (This emphasizes the need for empathy, even with those who commit terrible acts, to understand the root causes and prevent future occurrences.)
3. "And research on murder fantasies finds that most men have fantasized about killing someone, about 70% in two studies. And most women as well. More than 50% of women have fantasized about killing somebody. So murder fantasies are incredibly common..." (Presents a surprising data point about the prevalence of violent fantasies, normalizing the experience while emphasizing the importance of not acting on them.)
4. "Attention is the glue between reality and memory." (Highlights the importance of engagement in the moment.)
5. "What we've created with Gen AI is basically the ultimate false memory machine." (A chilling assessment of the potential for AI to manipulate our perception of the past, especially given human cognitive biases.)

Detailed Summary

Okay, here's a detailed summary of the YouTube video transcript in bullet points, covering key topics, arguments, and information discussed:

I. Introduction (Lex Fridman & Julia Shaw)

• Lex introduces Julia Shaw, a criminal psychologist with expertise in psychopathy, violent crime, psychology of evil, police interrogation, false memory, deception, and human sexuality.
• He highlights her books: "Evil," "The Memory Illusion," "Bi," and her new book "Green Crime."

II. The Continuum of Evil (Dark Tetrad)

• Evil is a Continuum: Shaw argues that "evil" isn't a binary (monster/non-monster) but a spectrum of traits.
• The Dark Tetrad: She explains the Dark Tetrad:
  • Sadism: Pleasure in hurting others.
  • Machiavellianism: Doing whatever it takes to get ahead.
  • Narcissism: Excessive self-admiration and seeing oneself as superior.
  • Psychopathy: Lack of empathy, parasitic lifestyle, deceptiveness, comfort hurting others.
• Scales: Individuals score differently on each of these traits.
• High scores across the board correlate with increased likelihood to cause harm. Everyone falls somewhere on the spectrum, and most are subclinical.
• Subclinical is that you don't quite meet the diagnostic threshold, but have traits that are related and that are so important for us to understand.

III. "Would You Kill Baby Hitler?" and the Nature vs. Nurture Debate

• The question is posed to explore whether people are born "evil."
• Shaw argues against the idea of innate evil.
• She believes nurture and environment play a significant role in shaping individuals capable of extreme harm.
• She states that in Hitler's early life, he didn't showcase a lot of the traits that defined the horrors that he was capable of later on.

IV. The Dangers of the Label "Evil" and the Importance of Empathy

• Shaw cautions against using the word "evil" as it "others" people and shuts down understanding.
• Dehumanizing and de-individuation are prerequisites for doing evil, leading to the fight of "us versus them."
• It is crucial to both dehumanize those on the other side and embrace the idea that you can be swallowed by the group, which also gives you a sense of justice.
• She advocates for "evil empathy" – understanding the motivations and psychological/social factors that lead people to commit terrible acts to prevent future harm.
• Evil is a label we place on others, there's nothing inherent that makes anything evil.
• She believes you need to dismantle that, as well as empathize with those we call evil.

V. Interviewing Those Considered "Evil"

• Insight can be gained even from controlled narratives because those narratives still reveal a lot about the person.
• Criminals often rationalize their actions (e.g., "Everyone's doing it"), diminishing their own agency.

VI. Creepiness and Trustworthiness

• Intuitive perceptions of creepiness and trustworthiness are often unreliable.
• Creepiness is often associated with deviations from social norms.
• Overconfidence in lie detection, especially in policing, is a problem.
• Jealousy is basically an exercise in lie detection, and humans are not good at it.

VII. Dark Tetrad Traits and Deception

• Research suggests people with psychopathic traits might be better at lying.
• People with psychopathy may be able to fake empathy and weaponize it.
• Tailored treatments that convince people to be pro-social may be more effective than empathy-focused interventions.

VIII. The Psychological Cost of Studying "Evil"

• Shaw acknowledges the Nietzsche quote "Gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes into you," but argues against the idea that studying evil makes you evil.
• She views criminal cases as puzzles to solve, avoiding emotional investment in victims.
• She says she worries that she sees the beauty in the puzzle and can lose footing on the moral landscape.

IX. The "Bad People" Podcast and Disturbing Crimes

• Shaw co-hosts the "Bad People" podcast, which explores crimes.
• The Robert Pickton (Piggy's Palace) case, involving a Canadian serial killer who fed victims to pigs, is highlighted as particularly disturbing.
• Loneliness, lack of social networks, and a combination of Dark Tetrad traits can lead to this.

X. The Psychology of Serial Killers

• Serial killers often experience loneliness and a lack of connection to reality.
• This is often combined with high psychopathy, low empathy, high sadism, and a belief that it's okay to pursue their own goals.

XI. The Capacity for "Evil" and the Importance of Rehearsing Resistance

• Shaw believes everyone is capable of terrible acts under certain circumstances.
• It's crucial to "rehearse evil" to understand the potential consequences and resist harmful actions.
• Murder fantasies are common and, according to some researchers, adaptive.

XII. The "Heroic Imagination"

• Shaw references Philip Zimbardo's concept of the "heroic imagination."
• It involves simulating standing up against injustice or intervening in harmful situations.
• Celebrates bystander research, which suggests people do usually intervene.

XIII. Understanding the Motivations Behind Murder

• Most murders stem from fights that escalate, with relatively petty reasons behind them.
• This contrasts with the glamorized version of murder often seen in media.
• Murder has a low recidivism rate, unlike fraud, elder abuse, and sexual violence.
• Forgiveness is up to the victims' families, and restoring justice should be more about making society safer.

XIV. Incels and Tinder Swindlers

• Entitlement and hatred fuel Incel beliefs.
• The internet can give people a mechanism to be their worst self and reinforce that with similar views.
• People who are Tinder Swindled and those in toxic relationships are often manipulated because they know what the targets want to hear.
• That kind of scheme plays on people's emotions.

XV. Jealousy and Relationships

• She has non-traditional views and believes jealousy is basically a red flag.
• People who are jealous aren't secure in the relationship.
• There's nothing romantic about jealousy. It is control and the desire to possess.
• Monogamy is a social construct.
• Honesty and good communication are prerequisites for avoiding these problems.

XVI. Polyamory and Bisexuality

• She thinks polyamory is a good way to have a non-traditional relationship structure.
• She is bi.
• Relationship structure is a choice, and it can depend on the societal reaction.
• Bisexual is just another word for bi.

XVII. Misunderstandings about Bisexuality and Sexuality

• That it's a phase. That it's transient.
• That you're on the way to Gay Town.
• That bi men tend to ID as gay or straight.
• In order to truly think about your sexuality, use the Klein Grid.

XVIII. Kinks and Sexual Fantasies

• She questions that you should equate someone's kink or sexual fantasies to "evil" or a defect of character.
• She touches on the submissive-dominant dynamic and disinhibition hypothesis.

XIX. Lessons from Studying Human Sexuality

• The need for visible representation and community, especially if your desires are considered taboo.
• Says it will be easier to dehumanize others as a result.

XX. Coming Out and Living Authentically

• A lot of people felt seen by her books on bisexuality.
• Her book on bi is banned in some countries.
• She advises people to read widely on issues about sexuality.

XXI. Interest in Criminal Psychology

• She was going to study art, but went to study psychology because her dad has paranoid schizophrenia.
• Criminal psychologists were the most fun.

XXII. False Memories

• She wanted to get her PHD in false memories.
• They are a feature of the brain.
• Most autobiographical memories are false and used with leading and suggestive questions.
• Most memories will be for gist memory, not the specific or verbatim.
• 70% became convinced that they committed a crime they didn't. This does not mean the same results for all.
• She used social reinforcement such as "good job."

XXIII. Mass Gaslighting with False Memories

• Governments could use propaganda to mass gaslight the population.
• Knowing that it's possible is step one in defending against it.
• We can't trust our brains so just write everything down or record it.
• Original memories are better than distorted.
• There is often a battle of confidence with memories.
• You need the "version history."

XXIV. Hypnotherapy, Shady Therapy, the Human Mind, and Rewriting your Past

• She believes you need receipts to show the validity of things and not always listen to a therapist.
• Cognitive restructuring is the protocol to use to remember a more positive past.
• The goal is to shift the emotional content so that you're dealing with past experiences today is good.

XXV. Human Memory, Technology, and the Brain

• People should pay attention if they want to record the human memory.
• There is a relationship between truth and fiction.
• Autosuggestion occurs if you suggest things to yourself that didn't happen.
• Neuralink could also have negative effects if the proper protocol isn't implemented, such as over modifying memories.
• Cognitive training is important to improve memory; NeuroNation is one recommendation.
• There is a high probability you will get memory distortion without good protocols.

XXVI. Aphantasia and Remembering Names

• She is terrible at remembering names and said she's discovered she has aphantasia.
• Aphantasia is the inability to create mental imagery and she sees black.
• People can test their memory to test themselves. Close your eyes and picture a red apple. What do you see?

XXVII. Green Crime

• Her upcoming book will apply criminological and criminal psychology ideas to the area of environmental protection and crimes.
• She thinks of the Earth like a house and the crimes against Earth have bad consequences for people.
• She touches on the Dieselgate Volkswagen case to illustrate.
• The book addresses how to fight environmental crime and who stops them.
• She says all the different angles can come together to inspire motivation.

XXVIII. Conformity

• She says the psych of environmental crime comes down to the same things we've talked about when considering evil.
• It comes down to conformity to unethical practices and the rationalization of evil.
• It is a free market, so bad decisions become necessary.
• She highlights whistleblowers.
• She notes internal and external heroes are necessary to stop the spread of environmental crime.

XXIX. Challenges with Empathy

• She struggles to empathize with people who force women into sexual slavery and confinement.

XXX. Hope for the Future

• People studying darkness, new tech, to implement scientific findings gives her hope.
• She notes Spot is a tool to record important emotional memories.
• The use of AI and to code it well has the potential to change the way people live with their memories.