[@ChrisWillx] How to Steal Thoughts Out of Anyone’s Head - Oz Pearlman

Link: https://youtu.be/6xdW0bdVkVU

Duration: 116 min

Short Summary

Oz The Mentalist, a former Wall Street professional who transitioned to mentalism after 30 years of studying the craft, discusses his journey from restaurant magician at age 14 to performing over 317 shows, including his upcoming White House Correspondents Dinner performance to roast President Trump. He demonstrates muscle reading techniques, shares memory and communication tactics, and reveals how completing the 153-mile Spartathlon ultramarathon taught him that success is mental rather than physical.

Key Quotes

1. "What I'm doing is learnable, repeatable, and based in science. Those very important things. You can't teach someone to be a psychic." (00:00:40)
2. "We operate 95% of our lives in that exact fashion." (00:00:16)
3. "Most people add more details when they lie. They add more details to a story. Oh, you know, I I want to come but my daughter's this and that." (00:00:31)

Detailed Summary

Episode Overview

This episode features Oz The Mentalist (Darren Pearlman), a former Wall Street professional who transitioned to mentalism after 30 years of studying deception. The discussion covers his upcoming White House Correspondents Dinner performance to roast President Trump, mentalism demonstrations, ultrarunning achievements including completing the 153-mile Spartathlon, performance psychology, memory techniques, and the paradox of success and happiness.

• Oz The Mentalist has performed approximately 317 shows over 10 years
• He studied mentalism and deception for 30 years before going professional
• The podcast episode was recorded on February 23, 1988—the same date as the guest's birthdate
• Modern Wisdom reached 8th in the world on Spotify charts in December
• The guest has five children and estimates he sleeps significantly less than seven hours per night

Mentalism Fundamentals

Mentalism creates the illusion of mind reading without tricks or gimmicks—it's learnable, repeatable, and based in science rather than supernatural claims. Core principles include building rapport, establishing trust, charisma, and resilience, with resilience potentially more important than charisma for long-term success.

• Derren Brown is identified as the "godfather" of mentalism in the UK, having been the leading figure for 2–3 decades
• Kreskin performed on The Tonight Show with Johnny Carson over 80 times
• Mentalism began approximately 100 years ago when magicians began observing how psychics performed their "tricks"
• The key distinction between a psychic and a mentalist is that mentalism is learnable, repeatable, and based in science
• Wonder is nearly universal and hardwired into human DNA, unlike music or comedy
• The guest claims making performances about the audience provides longevity in his career

The Mentalist's Background and Journey

Oz quit his Wall Street job to pursue mentalism, using doctor/surgeon metaphors to reassure his mother it wasn't a mistake. Starting at age 14 after his parents divorced with no discretionary spending money, he worked as a restaurant magician and created an "agent" mental model as a survival tactic—splitting his psyche so rejection was handled by a separate persona rather than his core self.

• At age 14, after his parents divorced, he started working as a restaurant magician to generate income for magic tricks
• He created an "agent" mental model as a survival tactic—splitting his psyche so rejection was handled by the "agent" rather than his core self
• He used a saltwater and plexiglass metaphor to describe mentally isolating rejection
• He initially took a narcissistic approach to performance before realizing what he was actually selling
• He maintains the same personality on stage and in real life, slightly exaggerated, unlike many other performers
• He hosts the White House Correspondents Dinner and performed for 7,000 people at TikTok Theater in Darling Harbour, Sydney

Mentalism Demonstrations

The guest demonstrated "muscle reading"—observing subtle physical responses to deduce information—correctly identifying a card (King of spades) without touching the deck and identifying a poker hand as two pair of eights without seeing the cards. These demonstrations aren't card tricks—it's pure observation of physical responses.

• He correctly identified a card (King of spades) without touching the deck using muscle reading
• He identified a poker hand as two pair of eights without seeing the cards
• He guessed a subject's birth date (February 23, 1988) using five random cards dealt off the top
• He claims muscle reading is scientifically real and can be verified by Googling the term
• He notes statistically most poker hands are "nothing" (no pair or better)
• He states he could cheat "10 ways from Sunday" if he actually touched the cards due to his magician background

Communication and Memory Techniques

People operate approximately 95% of their lives in autopilot mode, meeting someone and defaulting to predictable questions without genuine engagement. A key technique is asking the fourth question you want to ask as your first question, which jars people out of autopilot. Most people don't actually forget names—they never heard them because their brain was stressed during introduction.

• Read and write are two different cognitive operations that rarely work simultaneously
• When someone says something that resonates, people typically start planning their next statement instead of listening
• He filmed a Netflix special where more cameras point at the audience than at the stage
• Repeating someone's name twice reduces forgetting within 10 seconds by over 90%
• Three name-remembering tactics: spell the name, give a compliment with a visual hook, or connect to someone else with the same name—all possible within 10 seconds
• He gave a TED talk on never forgetting a name after meeting someone within two seconds
• He produces a weekly newsletter of approximately 1,000 words due each Monday, totaling about 300,000 words over time

Deception Detection and Hypnosis

People tend to add more details when they lie because they feel the need to overprove their story, while honest people are cut and dry. The body cannot lie—you cannot control involuntary responses like heart rate changes, similar to how a polygraph works. Dr. David Spiegel at Stanford's evidence-based hypnotism lab shows remarkable success rates for smoking cessation.

• People tend to add more details when they lie because they feel the need to overprove their story
• Honest people tend to be cut and dry with their responses
• The body cannot lie—you cannot control involuntary responses like heart rate changes
• Verbal and visual cues from speech patterns, cadence, and facial observation could become more accurate than a polygraph in detecting deception
• AI could become incredibly good at detecting deception by watching objective measures like pauses between words and speed changes
• He has been polygraphed as a contestant on a TV game show
• Single one-time hypnosis intervention for smoking addiction shows 25% lifetime cessation success rate
• Two to four hypnosis sessions increases success rate to 50–60% for smoking cessation
• The hypnogogic stage—the moment of jolting just before sleep—is identified as the most suggestible part of the night

Ultrarunning Journey: Spartathlon

The guest, age 43, is a 2:23 marathoner who completed Spartathlon (153 miles from Athens to Sparta with a 36-hour cutoff) after failing the first year when he got swept and gave up at night after vomiting for 8 hours. A key revelation came when a runner who never ran more than a 4-hour marathon finished Spartathlon while he did not, leading to the understanding that success is mental, not physical.

• He completed 116 miles in Central Park four years ago
• He is currently training for a marathon in a week and a half with plans for 100-mile races after
• He failed Spartathlon the first year when he got swept and gave up at night after vomiting for 8 hours
• A runner who never ran more than a 4-hour marathon finished Spartathlon while he did not
• Ken Rideout (four kids, wrote a book, keeps executing) reinvigorated his running motivation
• During ultra running, when blood sugar drops, the speaker immediately wants to quit; taking calories and waiting five minutes typically resolves the feeling
• Ross Edgley practices "suffering strategically managed," treating his body like an engine by diagnosing and testing component parts
• Most elite ultra runners have a "darkness" or "edge" to them, though Ross Edgley and Nick Bear are exceptions
• There is significant overlap between people who have become sober and those now participating in ultra running

Success and Happiness Paradox

The guest estimates success and happiness is three times harder than success alone, while success with happiness and balance is ten times harder than that. He does not believe imposter syndrome can be overcome but sees it as persisting while being useful and driving relentless improvement.

• He does not believe imposter syndrome can be overcome—overcoming it would mean it no longer exists
• A show others rate as 10/10 might be only 7.5/10 for the guest, driving continuous improvement
• Gratitude and performance are often inversely related, as gratitude can reduce the drive to self-assess and improve
• Contentment is described as radical in the modern world filled with ambition, meritocracy, capitalism, and status-seeking
• Michael Phelps and Tiger Woods are cited as canonical examples where the price of being the best comes with personal costs
• He estimates success and happiness is three times harder than success alone
• Success with happiness and balance is ten times harder than success and happiness without balance
• The higher one climbs in success, the further there is to fall, and if you reach number one, there is only one direction to go

Performance Philosophy

The guest learned not to foreshadow endings in performances so that if something goes wrong, the audience doesn't know it went wrong. Emotional reactions lose 50-70% intensity after the first time and surprise is almost entirely gone. He views his work like jazz—different paths, bridges, and melodies while adapting to people in real-time.

• Emotional reactions lose 50-70% intensity after the first time and surprise is almost entirely gone
• He references Jenny Jerome (Winston Churchill's mother) dining with Gladstone and Disraeli—leaving Gladstone's dinner feeling he was clever, but Disraeli's dinner feeling like the cleverest woman herself
• Alain de Botton coined the concept of "reverse charisma"—when someone makes you feel interesting rather than being interesting themselves
• The most engaging conversationalists are not necessarily the most interesting people, but those who make others feel the most interesting about themselves
• Roger Federer won 54% of his points but 80% of his games, making him arguably one of the greatest of all time
• Jimmy Carr performs approximately 350 jokes in 40 minutes with significant crowd work
• The peak-end rule states the most memorable part of any experience is the most emotionally intense moment and the ending
• Apathy is described as the worst outcome for any performance—not caring or being engaged is worse than any negative reaction
• He uses a technique called "Fast Forward Your Feelings" where he rates dread about a task on a 1-10 scale, then forces himself to do it immediately

Upcoming Projects and Tour Dates

The guest has been primarily a corporate act for the last 10 years but is now transitioning to more public shows and touring. Upcoming performances include the White House Correspondents Dinner, shows at the Wynn in Las Vegas and the Borgata in Atlantic City, and a Netflix special shooting in July in New York City.

• May 2nd performance scheduled at the Wynn in Las Vegas
• June 5th performance scheduled at the Borgata in Atlantic City
• A Netflix special is scheduled to shoot in July in New York City
• He hosted the White House Correspondents Dinner where President Trump attended for the first time while in office
• His intention was not to roast Trump, unlike past comedians at the event
• He performed for 7,000 people at TikTok Theater in Darling Harbour, Sydney
• He is transitioning from primarily corporate acts over the last 10 years to more public shows and touring

Full Transcript

Show transcript

You have said that your career is built
on a lie.
>> Yeah.
>> What's a lie?
>> The lie is that can read people's minds.
>> You can't.
>> I can't. I wish I could.
>> Okay. Why does what you do work then if
you can't read people's minds?
>> Well, because I'm giving the illusion of
reading people's minds, right? That's
the skill. That's really I'm crafting a
narrative which in your mind plays out
in such a way kind of like the way a
magic trick works, but the contract is
different with the audience. Because
most of us when we watch a magic trick
since we've been young and we kind of
first experience magic, we know that
what's happening isn't real. De facto,
the bird that appeared didn't really
appear out of nowhere. The person doing
this isn't God. They didn't cut a woman
in half for real because you can't
actually put her back together, right?
Science has established what can and
can't be done within reason. That's what
we believe. So, you can always look and
see and say, "Well, there's a gimmick.
There's a trick. there's a way that it's
being done. And the funny part about
what I do, it's called mentalism. It's a
form of magic, is that you can't really
find how it's being done because there's
never that trick. There's never the
gimmick. There's never the thing that
you do to do it because it's a pure art.
It's very similar to standup comedy. I
can show up with nothing. I could do a
show today for thousands of people with
literally nothing. A marker helps. A pad
of paper helps, but it's not mandatory.
is that you know when you talk about the
prestige when people talk the reveal at
the end that's kind of the thing that
appears to be missing
>> the abracadabra the ah yeah well it's
not so we still get that moment of the
wow the taa the but
>> the lead up to it typically doesn't have
any form of something that looks like
it's doing the trick if that makes sense
it appears to be just a test of wills
where I've trained my mind to see and
observe things about you or influence
you in such ways that the method
seems to really be mind readading. And
that's that's the illusion I'm trying to
present.
>> Who is the greatest mentalist from
history? In your opinion,
>> that's a tough question. I mean, there's
a guy in the UK named Darren Brown who's
really been the godfather the last like
two or three decades, I would say, who
broke ground. You can't really throw
There's a guy named Kreskin, the amazing
Kreskin, who in the US was on the
Tonight Show with Johnny Carson, I don't
even know how many times, over 80, and
he was a real character and performed.
He created that whole motif. But all of
this started, don't quote me on this,
but about a hundred years ago, where
people used to just pretend to be
psychics or depending on what you
believe, were psychics. And then
magicians kind of observe the way
psychics do their tricks or whatever you
want to call them. Maybe they're doing
it real, maybe they're not. But they
found methods. And the key thing to
understand that's difference between a
psychic and me is what I'm doing is
learnable, repeatable, and based in
science. Those very important things.
You can't teach someone to be a psychic.
I've never met a psychic that could
teach me to also be a psychic. I could
teach you to be No, but it's true. I
It's It's really And then it's not
always repeatable. So, if you're a
psychic, let's do this three times. Talk
to my dead grandma three times. I'm
going to ask you three questions. Answer
all three. It's not like that, right?
It's what's in the ether. It's a little
bit more ethereal, if you will. And then
it's there's it's rooted in science. I
can explain to you the method of
everything I do. Most other mentalists
can explain to you how I do most of what
I do. Not all. And that's what can set
you apart. But that's the key. There is
a method. There's something I'm doing a
set of steps.
>> What are the component parts? What are
the core principles of being a good
mentalist?
>> I think knowing how to build rapport,
how to establish trust, the same things
that a hypnotist can do, same thing a
good salesperson can do, the same thing
that a great con man can do are very
important. If you can't get people to
trust you and work with you, it won't
work. I'm not hypnotizing people to
cluck like a chicken. we're having a fun
experience together. So, you're winning
them over. I would say charisma is
important.
>> I I would say resilience is really
important. It's a lot of poor
foundational skills that are useful in
all of life.
>> So, resilience is really important
because it doesn't work at the
beginning.
>> So, you don't I've never met somebody
who was a mentalist who was good at the
start. It's very similar to stand-up
comedy. You rarely find someone who's
been doing standup comedy 6 months who's
incredible and is headlining Madison
Square Garden. there were 10 or 20 years
of work to become an overnight success
for most of those people. The same thing
applies. It's the same core skill.
>> You talk about reading micro
expressions, body language.
>> That's part of it.
>> How how accurate is that in practice?
How much can you detect from being able
to see what's going on with someone's
microp expressions, their face, their
body language?
>> I don't have an easy answer to that
because it depends on the scenario. Does
that make sense?
A big part of what I do is create an
illusion that you can generalize my
skills to everything.
Does that make sense or no? Because I
can explain it what it means. I create a
very specific scenario that looks it
should look impossible. It should be
very entertaining and should be a story
you tell to lots of people. You go well
if you can do that then remember that
then the then connector is what people
fill in the blanks.
>> And it's not always true. And that's the
honest truth is that I create an
impression of being able to do
everything. Should I give you an
example? But I don't know if we're too
early in the game. No, no, let's do it.
>> But I told your team to get a deck of
cards. They bought two decks of cards.
Overachievers. Modern wisdom. Correct.
Take
>> Should we put the glass on? Grab a deck.
>> Yeah. I'm not going to put the glasses
on.
>> It doesn't matter.
>> And open it up. I don't want to touch
it.
>> All right.
>> Crack it open.
>> Cracking.
>> There should be I'm assuming this is
where CVS, Walgreens, I don't know where
you got it. Are there There should be
Joker and um fake cards and whatever.
>> Joker.
>> I don't know what there is. I have not
touched these. So, take everything out
that's not a real card.
>> Okay? There's something advertising
YouTube. There's some rules. There's two
joker cards. Okay.
>> And please shuffle them up to your
heart's content. Like mix there. They're
in order right now if they came out of
the box. This is a brand new deck.
>> Yeah, it looks that way.
>> Are you a good shuffler?
>> Uh, no. Horrendous. But I uh
>> At least you're honest.
>> Yeah, dude. I've got I've got certain
skills, but shuffling cards.
>> Shuffling cards is not one of them, huh?
>> No. I imagine that this is something
that you do in your sleep.
>> So, I was a magician before I was a
mentalist.
>> Okay. It's kind of akin to doing premed
before you go to school and become a
doctor, before you become a surgeon or a
plastic surgeon.
>> I used when I quit my job on Wall Street
as many metaphors to becoming a plastic
surgeon or doctor to convince my Jewish
mother that I wasn't throwing away my
life. Um,
>> okay.
>> All right. I think moderately well
shuffled.
>> Yeah. But anybody watching this and
they're going to assume so magic is
slight of hand. As soon as I touch these
cards, everything's out the door because
I could touch them and do something.
Does that make sense?
>> Yes.
>> And and truly, that's the honest truth.
If you hand me these cards, I could
cheat 10 10 ways from Sunday. So, here's
what I want you to do. I don't want this
to be about the cards. The cards are
meaningless. I just want to show you how
you could generalize a skill. Do you
feel like these are mixed?
>> I think so.
>> Okay. So, if you feel good, if not, by
all means, we can shuffle more, but it
it's inconsequential because I'm not
going to touch them.
>> They're pretty mixed.
>> Okay.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I did a good
job. I did good.
>> Mix them again. Do whatever you want.
Put them down in front of you.
>> Yep. Okay.
>> So, you nor I can see them.
>> And what I want you to do is take and
how do I describe this effectively in a
casino? They always tell you to lift off
a piece. It's kind of like a cut. Yep.
>> So, I want you to lift off. It could be
a little. It could be a lot,
>> but place a piece over to the side.
>> You're going to go for a little.
>> Do you feel good about that?
>> I feel great.
>> Would you like to do it again? It's It's
completely your choice.
>> I feel great about that.
>> Okay. So, see where you cut to. Grab the
card. Bring it close to your body.
>> This top one. I honestly couldn't care
less. If that doesn't feel right, do it.
Cut again. Cut somewhere different. And
take this card. Here's what I want. Very
important. I want you to take and I want
you bring it very close to you against
and bring it close to your body
>> and and make sure I can't see and look
at it. Do you see it?
>> See it?
>> And now look at me.
Right now it's one out of 52. Are we in
agreement? If not, we start over cuz you
want to change.
>> So you ask me what has to do with
>> actual physical parameters like
observing you.
>> Google right now. If you want to Google
this, Google is muscle reading real.
>> Is muscle reading real?
>> Yeah. Look it up because right now say
to me, well, this can't be real.
Literally, if you want to Google it
right afterwards, you can Google is
muscle reading real. Everybody do that.
The idiom response scientifically chat
GB will tell you it's real. You can see
things in people that will give away the
answer. Watch. Try not to react. Cover
the card. Put it away. I don't care what
you do with it. Think red, black, red,
black, red, black. Hearts, diamonds,
club, spades. Hearts, diamonds, club,
spades. Ace 2, three, four, five, six,
7, 9, 10, jack, queen, king. It's a
black card. It's a spade. It's the king
of spades. Turn it over. How do we do
anyway,
>> dude? [ __ ] you.
[ __ ] you.
>> No.
>> Now, what somebody would think in this
scenario, one is the card trick, but
it's not cuz I didn't touch the cards
ever. You could do this again with any
cards. It's it it doesn't matter at all.
In fact,
>> try this glasses. Try these. Try this.
Take the cards, put them all together.
>> Yeah.
>> And mix them one more time, please.
>> Okay. You know what's dumb? I actually
forgot that that was the name of it. And
for the first half of it, while you were
looking at me, I thought it was uh
clubs.
>> Oh. Only after that when you said go
through it, I was like, "Ah, that's why
I checked again."
>> Interesting.
>> And then you got it right. No, but you
got it right. You got it right when you
were going through the But the first
time I was like, and then that's why I
checked again. I was like, "Oh, [ __ ] no.
That's a spade." If you would have
thought it differently, the funny part
about it, I would have gotten what you
thought and not what was wrong.
>> Use error,
>> right?
>> All right.
>> Mix them again. Mix them again, please.
Now, here's where you could generalize
the skill. So, let me ask you a question
here.
>> Okay.
>> Do you know how to play poker
>> badly?
>> But do you know how the the rules of
games like how a pair, three of a kind,
two pair, flush, you know, all the
rules?
>> Uh, yeah.
>> Okay.
>> Broadly.
>> Okay. Mixed.
>> If you want to put on the table kind of
mixed, do whatever you want. I just want
you to feel like
>> I've done the mixing, dude. I'm aware
that I can do this. Add in an item and
you're still going to be able to
>> People are going to watch this and go,
"Why couldn't he mix better?" That's
what I know there. So, take and I want
you to I'm teasing you.
>> That's my skill.
>> Lift off uh like a a chunk. It could be
a little, could be a lot. And put one to
the right. Perfect. Pick up another and
put one to the left. Wonderful. If you
saw me right guessing one card, why am I
here right now? Think about this. You
shuffled the cards. You made them three
piles. Why don't we just go to Vegas and
why don't I just play poker?
>> Let's monetize the skill. It's not
necessarily generalized to everything.
>> You've shuffled these. You made three
piles of your own valition. Is that
true?
>> Yes.
>> Pick up any one of the piles. Please put
it in your left hand.
Uh like this. Like uh like as if you're
going to deal poker and pick up another
one of the piles.
>> Is that feels right? Put it on top. So
you're kind of reassembling. Pick up the
last one. Put it on top as You've cut
the deck three times.
>> Mhm.
>> And here's what I want you to do. I want
you in front of you over there to deal 1
2 3 4 five cards face down in front of
you, please.
>> You can put them on top however you
want. You're going to take those cards
yourself.
>> Okay.
>> No, bring them close to you.
>> Okay. I'm just getting them in.
>> Perfect. Grab them all. Put the deck
away
and bring it close to you.
>> Mhm.
>> So there's no way I could see and see if
you what your poker hand is. Now, don't
tell me,
but this becomes more monetizable than
guessing one card.
>> Mhm.
>> And close the cards and bring them close
to your body. Do you know what poker
hand you have?
>> Yes.
>> Now, again, statistically, you probably
have nothing because that's what happens
in most poker games. H. But you seemed a
little happy.
>> How happy did you feel? We don't know.
You also said you don't play poker very
much, so I'd have to observe you for
much longer. But a pair would be the
worst hand. The next one would be two
pair. Three pair.
We would have a a straight or a flush or
straight FL.
This isn't a card trick. This is just
watching you and it's seeing where was
their response statistically. Again,
I've never touched the cards. This isn't
a card trick. This isn't about slight of
hand.
I think you have two pair.
>> And hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on.
Before you do this, don't do anything.
Hold on. Don't tell me anything about
it. I don't think I think the pairs too
are I would describe them as both
relatively low. That's my feeling. Do me
a favor right now. I nothing jumped. I
bet you there's no face cards. I want
you to take and lay the cards out in
front of you one at a time face down in
front of you in any order you want. Just
lay them in a row of five in front of
you, please.
>> Okay.
Eights. Was there a pair of eights?
>> Yes,
>> there was. See, I when I said when I
said low, you didn't know what to say.
You were confused because is that low?
It's right in the middle.
>> It's right in the middle. That's the
difficulty.
>> I don't care what the poker hand is. Do
you want to know why?
>> Why?
>> Because from the day you were born until
today, a card trick will not be
something you remember.
>> It won't. So, I'm going to show you
something that you will remember.
>> I'm scared.
>> Are you ready? Because you put these
five cards down.
From the day you were born until today,
what month were you born in? Could you
tell me please?
>> February.
>> February. What day?
>> 23rd.
>> 23rd of what year?
>> 88.
>> 88.
>> Dude, no.
No. No. No. No. No. No.
No. [ __ ]
I can't tell if it's better or worse
given that you're wearing that mask
right now. I can't tell.
I didn't even realize. I didn't even
realize.
You're terrifying.
You're You're a terrifying human.
>> You know, we were talking about cults
before we got started.
>> I'm starting one now. Are you joining?
>> Yes. Yes. Yes. Tell me. We all need to
tell me what. This is broken already.
Jared,
>> we got six.
>> It's okay. Good. Uh, dude, that's
unbelievable.
>> I think you're broken, too.
It's very disconcerting.
>> Yeah.
>> Where do we even go from here? It's the
first one.
>> I don't know, dude. I'm
>> Holy [ __ ]
>> Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.
>> That's it. From the day you're born
until today. Put these away. That was
just a fun warm-up. I didn't even want
to throw these out there that early.
>> Okay. Well,
>> it's the worst thing I'm going to do.
>> Okay. Holy [ __ ]
>> Thanks, man. Thanks. Now, now I feel
like I'm going to get jump scared by a
ghost or something. Uh, so
you mentioned that story is a big part
of it. That being able to sort of build
in more than just being the trick.
>> Well, I think that's the key because the
story you tell is the the true power of
what I do and what provides longevity
and has been my secret to success.
>> Mhm.
>> Which is for years I didn't realize what
I was selling, which I think is a core
principle that a lot of people don't
realize. And when I say selling, people
always think that means money. I'm not
talking about money. All of us are
salespeople in life. We don't realize
it. You and me right now, we're selling
attention. You're selling people
watching and listening to this program
because if they stop, your business is
done. And it took a long time to grow
this, right? Your equity. So, I asked
myself, what was I selling? For the
longest time, I thought I'm selling. I'm
amazing. Look at me. Right? It's a very
narcissistic approach. I can do a cool
trick. Why does that matter to you? And
then I started in inverting the
question, saying, why does it matter to
anyone else? It shouldn't matter. Who
cares? Sure, it's an escape. Sure, it's
fun. I could do the same thing as 98% of
my competitors and realize it's cool,
that's great. I realized what's going to
differentiate me is when I make it about
other people. So the way the story gets
told, the way a thing is remembered is
much more emotionally impactful if it
has something to do with the person
watching you,
>> right? That moment that connects with
them where that was a card trick, so to
speak. But the card trick when you
recount it to somebody will be
completely different because when I just
guessed
>> two pair in a poker hand that wasn't
that meaningful. But when you sit back
and rethink this through and go I
shuffled these cards. I cut them a bunch
of times and then it was the date of my
birth like how could that be right? That
story is going to get told in a very
different way and hopefully for months
and years to come
>> and that's a very small parallel but
when I perform I always make it about
the people watching. If it's for an NFL
team, it's going to be what matters to
the football viewer. Somebody who's not
a fan of me. They I came along for the
ride. I'm trying to catch new people and
have them buy into me and what I do. And
doing that is making it all about them.
>> Like when I do my shows, if you come
watch my show, the audience is the star
of the show. I don't mean that in a
cliche new age. I mean, literally, I
don't have a show without the audience.
I'm panning for gold. And my version of
gold is genuine, authentic reactions.
people freaking out and other people
even if you're not in observing that and
feeling that same feeling because wonder
is kind of universal.
>> Music isn't, comedy isn't. There's
almost nothing that is universal.
There's a few things, right? But wonder
is one of them that's like hardwired
into our DNA. We'll get back to talking
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and modernwisdom a checkout. There's a
cool story about Jenny Jerome. It's
Winston Churchill's mother and she got
to dine with Prime Minister William
Gladstone and his rival Benjamin Draeli
on consecutive nights. And when she left
the dinner after sitting next to
Gladstone, she said, "I left feeling
that he was the cleverest man in
England." And the following night after
sitting next to Draeli, she said, "I
left feeling like I was the cleverest
woman."
>> Nice. That's perfect.
>> This wonderful example of what Alander
Botton calls reverse charisma or inverse
charisma. Some people are interesting.
Some people make you feel interesting,
>> right?
>> Why is it that around certain friends we
have lots to say around other people we
don't have so much, right?
>> You go, well, and no, it's
>> how much they encourage us to dig deeper
and to think about ourselves. How much
of us they can tolerate or they seem
like they're willing to hold on to uh
how prepared are they to open up about
their experience that makes us feel like
we have the headroom to be able to do it
about ourselves? And I think uh yeah, a
lot of people want to develop charisma.
They want to me me look at how
impressive I am. They want their aura to
be electric and the stories to be
energizing and everyone in the room to
walk in and just
But I when I think about the people that
I like spending the most time with, it's
not always the ones that are the most
interesting. It's the ones that make me
feel the most interesting.
>> I think that's 100% true. And the power
of silence that people don't really
observe or realize. And it took me so
many years. a comedian if they step on
their own jokes. If you tell another
joke while people are laughing, that's
it's it's known as stepping on you're
taking away some of their laughter.
You're taking away some of the feeling.
You cut it short.
>> It took me years and years to realize
that when people start reacting in a
performance,
>> I stop because it will continue. It's
like an sometimes it's an avalanche that
continues. And in fact, we're shooting
uh pretty soon a special. I think I can
talk about a Netflix special. And one of
the big things we talked about is when
you normally watch a show you watch on
stage, we have more cameras pointing
into the audience than on stage. Because
when people sit back down after they've
experienced it, that's the best moment
by far. No, but it's it's not even that.
It's because they don't feel like
they're on camera anymore. When you're
standing, the spotlight's on. Action.
When you sit down, you get to unpack
what just occurred and it feels as if
you're no longer on camera. I liken it
to, you know, when you cook a steak, how
all the juices come in? If you just take
the steak and put it on a plate, you
don't pour the juices. That's the most
delicious part of it. That's what gives
it all the, you know, the the the the
juiciness. It's like the the real flavor
that happens in my show when people sit
and they turn to the person next to them
and they're like, "What the?" And he's
like, "I don't know, man." And he goes,
"How do you I don't know. I like that
right there." The real part when I leave
the room and you guys, that's the best
part. That's where you want to leave the
tape recorder on. That's where you want
to hear what people really say. And he
goes, "Was he in dude? I don't know how
he did that. I changed my mind in the
middle. How did he That's the best part.
That for me is the real joy.
>> Sitting with silence is something that
takes a lot of skill to realize that
there's a third participant if you're
ever doing any kind of performance,
especially if it's between two people.
You and your person that's on stage,
there's a third participant or 3,000
participants and that all of the people
that are watching, right?
>> And allowing that to sit, allowing the
sort of wonder to hang a little bit.
What when it comes to storytelling, you
know, not everybody is going to be
prestiging their way through some date
of birth revealing card trick,
telling stories more generally. What are
some of the principles that you think
about when it comes to telling a good
story? I think this applies. There's a
parallel, which is you're not going to
probably learn to be a magician or a
mentalist, but the core skills that I
have are ones that are interchangeable
in life. Asking yes or no questions
gives you yes or no answers. doors get
closed, right? The more you can give a
branching tree and ask questions that
haven't been asked before. So, a lot of
what I do is I design my ideas with the
end goal in mind. I literally know what
I want the ending to be and then I work
a backwards from there. Does that make
sense? I know I observe that. For
example, I just did something on Fox
Business last week. I'm going to be on
CNBC next week. I'm watching what do
people care about right now. Truly, this
is a unique time. There's chaos in the
Middle East. Gas prices are going up.
Most people are in debt. People care
about what's the price of gas going to
be. And I went on there and I I I made
up the story, but the story, the hook at
the beginning is I said there's four Fs
that matter most to all of us. Family,
friends, faith, finances. You
>> going to say fuel?
>> Yeah. You know, I Damn it, Chris. I need
you on on payroll. Uh but yeah, I I I I
didn't want to. It was on Fox News, so
faith was important. But I I said that
that's a good one, though. is that uh
you just needed to you the hook the
interesting part at the beginning is you
want to liken something that somebody
can say oh yeah that makes sense that
like it makes sense to me and right away
I I brought it back to what are gas
prices going to be how does this affect
people around the country and it it tied
together and again you're not going to
do this as a mentalist but most people I
think they're in autopilot and when they
ask someone else a question or when they
meet someone they slip into just like in
an airplane autopilot after you take off
and until you land. The plane is mostly
flown by a computer that just does if
this then this, if this, then this. We
operate 95% of our lives in that exact
fashion. You meet someone, is it like
fight or flight? What do I ask them? Oh,
what do you do? Okay, where are you
from? And yes, you can do that. I'm not
saying to be like a weirdo. But if you
scratch below the surface and think of
the first question, second question,
third question you want to ask them and
then oh, what's the fourth? Ask them the
fourth first.
you're much more likely to hit a
question that they haven't been asked
recently that jars them out of autopilot
themselves where they go, "Oh, that's
interesting. I never thought of it that
way." That's a great question to ask.
Something that brings you back to
something more introspective and then
listen. I know that's the craziest part,
but most people just simply wait for
their turn to speak next. And as soon as
you say something that resonates with
them, ding ding ding, their brain starts
saying, "I need to say this next. I need
to say this." and you're not listening
to what they're saying anymore.
>> Read and write are two different
operations that rarely work at the same
time in our brains. So, you have to It's
like my my six-year-old has an idea and
he wants it right. I'm like, "Put it in
a thought bubble. Leave it in the
thought bubble. Let's come back to it."
Right? That's the hardest thing. It's
hard for me, too. But the raising your
hand approach and saving the thought is
such a challenge in a conversation.
>> Everybody criticizes the fact that they
don't like small talk. It's it's a
almost universal thing that people
dislike. the idea of getting into an
elevator with somebody that's going to
stop at every floor trying to hold
together some conversation that means
nothing to everybody and uh yeah the
idea of ridding yourself of the social
foreplay and jumping straight to third
base or whatever the equivalent is uh I
think is a good idea.
>> Well, even asking something that's just
different like I you and I probably
encounter far more new people on average
than almost anyone. I will meet
sometimes thousands of people in a week.
It's just a part of my job. So how do
you connect with them on a real level? I
will stop and try to get everyone's
names. If I don't know your name, I'll
make sure it was Jared. I want to make
sure I got it right. Like, that's a very
core skill that's so easy to do that
most of us just think nothing of.
>> How can people become better at that?
I've I met a million people on the front
door of nightclubs.
>> So, it's very tough. So, in that
situation, if you're meeting a bunch of
people all at once, it can be
overwhelming, right? It's like trying to
drink from a fire hose. There are ways
to slow it down. There's ways to
remember names for short-term purposes.
Long-term is very different because the
way memory imprints. Um, I gave a TED
talk last year, most viewed in the world
for that year. Humble brag. I'm very
proud. I'm very proud of that though cuz
I didn't expect it to do that well and I
barely made it to the TED talk by the
skin of my teeth. That's a different
story. But if you ask the TED talk
people, the fact that I even made it for
the TED talk was within minutes. Flight
was diverted. It landed in Seattle
instead of Vancouver. We were on the
tarmac for two and a half hours. We're
trying to figure out how to get me
there. Am I going to get in a car and
just drive across the border? Finally,
it takes off. I Anyway, it was very
funny. I sprinted faster than any
marathon finish I've ever had out of the
Vancouver airport. You know when you're
changing in a car, how many times you
change in a car? You're just like in a
movie, legs out the window, changing,
they're seeing my tidy whies. These
underwear were embarrassing. They were
not designed for public consumption.
Anyways, it was crazy. I don't know how
that thing came together, but in it, I
taught you how to never forget someone's
name after meeting them within two
seconds because it's very embarrassing.
And so I have a a little thing where
I've switched up the instructions on a
shampoo bottle, which are normally what?
Lather, rinse, repeat. Lather, rinse,
repeat. Three words every shampoo
bottle. Here's what I say. Listen,
repeat, reply. So when you meet someone,
most people when they hear a name, they
actually didn't forget the name. They
actually never knew it in the first
place. which sounds so silly, but when
they say the name, you weren't listening
because your brain is going through a
stressful period at that moment. Do I
already know them? What's going on?
You're think of a million things,
especially if you're meeting people.
There's all different things going on in
your brain. So, when they said the name,
you didn't actually hear it. You don't
know it. If you ask them right then, you
don't know the name.
>> So, right away, the easiest part,
listen. Sounds silly.
>> Repeat. I immediately repeat the name
twice if I can. What was that? Jared or
Jerry? Jared. Got it. Listen. Repeat. If
you said it twice, your odds go down by
over 90% of forgetting it within the
next 10 seconds. And then reply involves
some sort of a hook. You want to cement
the name in your brain. I've got a few
different tactics I use. One of them is
how to spell it. So in this case,
Jonathan, right, we had Jonathan here.
Is that J O N A T H an A's or an O at
the end? And then he goes J O N A T H A.
Oh, that's the way to spell it. That's
the only way those other guys. So right
away I've said Jonathan three times. I'm
going to remember it much more likely.
Like it's much more likely it will not
disappear. Second, if spelling, if the
name is Chris, I'm not gonna be like,
"Is that CH R I S?" Yeah, psycho. Of
course, it's Chris. C H R I S. So, you
can't spell it. What I might do in that
case is pay a compliment, which is
Chris. I love that shirt, man. I haven't
seen that logo for modernism. Great
shirt, Chris. Now, I've said it two more
times. I've hooked it with a visual,
which is Chris wearing the shirt. In
your brain, it tends to click more. The
third one is I connect it to somebody
else I know. So if I met someone, I go,
"Jonathan," I go, "That's so funny. I
just read a book by that guy, Jonathan
Hate. What a great book, Jonathan. Good
name." Boom. I've just connected it. All
of those things can happen in under 10
seconds. It's not that much. People like
being complimented. It shows that you
care about them and you will now
remember their name. It's been a cheat
code in life for me because I will meet
people and they will feel seen and heard
where when I leave regardless of if I'm
really a jerk they go, "Oh, he's a nice
guy." Right? It connects with you on a
level because you're being personable
and most people don't take the time to
do that.
>> What how can people become better with
memory outside of that? It's not just
names. Ebbing house, forgetting curb,
space repetitiony stuff. This is a
little bit of space repetition with some
mind palace location based stuff going
in there.
>> It's not full pneummonics because if
you're trying to remember people's names
for longer, you really have to do a
little more kind of like hard wiring and
cementing and repetition but also having
something that hooks the person to
either a visual. Um I'm with you like
memory palace is smart. One thing
connects to the next connects to the
next and you can build that out. How
many people can remember that for a long
time is difficult.
>> It's tough.
>> My memor is not that great which people
will not believe. They'll say, you ask
my wife, she'll be like, his memor is
terrible. But my memory is great for
things that are important for me to
remember,
>> right?
>> Think about that again. For most people,
I think that's the case. You can like
you can play to your strengths. If
you're good at buys and back and those
chicken legs, then you're skipping legs
day, right? I didn't mean that about
you. Legs are great. But
I like how Chris is like, "What did you
say to me?
>> Train today."
>> Yeah. But I think that I will do very
well at the things that I have to
remember and things that I don't care
about will kind of atrophy and that's
the part that's harder to to really
condition.
>> Well, this was something that I get
asked a lot at the live shows that I've
been doing, which is how do I get better
at remembering ideas and when I first
started trying to not be so much of an
adult infant, I'm listening to Sam
Harris and Jordan Peterson and and Rogan
and these guys just seem to have like
idetic memory. Like [ __ ] Ben Shapiro
seem to have this like photographic
memory. I remember reading things and
then trying to explain them to a friend
later on that day and I couldn't even
remember what book it was I'd been
reading and it was so embarrassing and I
thought, "God, you know, this suck these
people out there that they either have a
skill set that I don't have or a
capacity that I don't have or that
they're that they're using some sort of
strategy that I'm not aware of or maybe
they're just better people than me." And
then I realized that there was no reason
for me to remember it. I was remembering
ideas to tell my friend in the gym,
>> right? And a lot of the time when people
are saying, "I wish I remembered more of
what I read." I'm like, "Well, why? Why
is it that you want to remember this
thing that you're reading?" Well, it
would be cool to explain to other
people. A lot of the time it's that I
want to be able to say that I've read
it. I want to be able to tell other
people and show other people that I know
this book that I've been going through
or this particular documentary or
whatever it might be. And as soon as I
started doing the show, I had a reason
to remember things. It was high veilance
for me like very very highly important
for me to hold on to stuff because I
wanted to talk about this thing today
with this guest about their book right
so there was a purpose for me to do that
I'm writing you know I do this
newsletter every week 300,000 words
later well there was a reason for me to
learn stuff that week I know that I've
got a thousand words to hand in this
Monday so there is a purpose for me
learning things and remembering things
so that I can then recall them but
without that it's very difficult to have
memory stick. It's very effortful and
the only reason that you do it is if
there's an outcome on the other side of
it. So if you're struggling to remember
things that you're learning, I think
look at what's the motivation for doing
it. And if you don't really have one, I
think giving yourself an output reason
to remember this stuff is a great place
to start.
>> I agree.
Yeah. I think memory is a difficult one
because again most of us will think oh
I'm so bad at remembering names or I'm
so bad at they'll you'll you'll give
yourself you won't give yourself credit
for certain things when you probably
have very good memory for things that
are important for your survival for your
dayto-day I need to pick up the kids
from school hopefully you are
remembering that that's very important
but the things that are missing what is
it that's that's lacking in that
department I find if you can't remember
it cheat I write things down
>> take copious notes it's been one of my
really big hacks in life is I I would
say about 10 years ago what started
happening is I would have repeat clients
who book me for another show and I have
a certain set list and with what I do
you don't want to repeat tricks over and
over because they lose a lot of their
pizzazz and appeal so I I start
panicking what did I do for them oh my
god and then I realized that what I had
done for them was asymmetrically special
to them and not as special to me so you
meet someone and you guess their ATM pin
code two years ago right oh you or you
you remember I don't remember it cuz
I've done 317 shows since you but the
feeling that I gave you was so strong
and so adamant and I've done things
where I guess I guess the name of kids
before they're born from parents and I
will give them notes and these will be
kept in scrapbooks. I met kids who are
10 years old. No way. Yes. That's a a
big big reputation maker. I meet someone
who's pregnant. I go do you know if it's
a boy or a girl? They go yes. I go do
you care if it's a surprise? I won't say
but I know right now if it's a boy or a
girl and do you know your nut top name?
and I'll guess the name. I've actually
guessed in a few instances not the name
that you you didn't think this was going
to be the name and it ended up being the
name, the one that your husband wanted,
you didn't want. And so again, why do I
say this? I'm not trying to brag. If you
meet someone 5 years later, they
remember that moment crystal clear. If
you don't, it's hurtful.
>> Do you see that? It's like they
>> it turns something really beautiful into
something that's actually a little bit
tarnished now.
>> Exactly. And so after that happened on
one or two occasions, now I can somewhat
to a degree fake it because I can
elevate my energy to theirs and they're
not really guessing out. But I said, I
don't want to have that happen again. So
that never happens anymore. Do you know
why? Because after that happens, if I'm
at an event, I write their name, I write
everything. I try to cement it in my
mind. Just writing things enhances your
memory right away. Just sit down, take
the effort at the end of my show, which
you might not have a show, but at the
end of your day, debrief. What was
really important today? I don't journal.
I'm not going to lie about that. But I
will write down everything that occurs
from a business perspective that I want
to recall and that I can use in the
future. And just by doing that, if I go
back to those notes and I can connect
these two people, which now through CRM,
through very simplistic methods, I can
just see this person met me here. They
know this person. They might be at this
next event. Boom. I have all this
information that I can use. Not as a
trick. I'm not revealing it in a magical
way, but it almost feels that way to
people. If I remember something I did
for you three years ago, it feels like
another experience of wonder and awe. Oh
my god, how do you know that still I
don't technically I re rewent over my
notes, but that the fact that I took the
time to take the notes and reviewed them
is already a leg up. And you can always
find that I do a lot of sales meetings.
And at sales meetings, I'm always
intrigued by the fact that one person in
the room is the number one performer.
right here. We're in a room with 3,000
people that flew to the Bahamas because
they all want a trip. One person did the
best of everyone. What made that person
the best that year? That's that to me
that's a fascinating thing. That's like
when I used to run marathons my faster
days and I would win marathons. Being at
the start line, there's no bigger rush.
There's no better drug. There's no
better anything than looking around at
everybody else and saying, "I'm going to
beat every single one of you today." I
can't even imagine being in the Olympics
and winning a gold. Like that's the
>> the rush. I can't. It's unfathomable
because I did that at like a lower level
weekend warrior and it was still the
best. But in that room, that person must
have believed they would be number one.
And then that became self-fulfilling and
they kept doing everything they could to
make that happen. They didn't stumble
into it. There's no way the number one
person at your company is doing it by
chance and never thought it would
happen. It's impossible.
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What about deception? How can people
better spot liars?
So, people I wish I had a a clear-cut
way and I don't want to lie to people
and tell them here's how you can know
who's lying. I feel that anyone who does
that is not telling you the truth
because people are different, right?
We're all different. But all of us have
kind of guiding principles that if you
observe people, you can tell when
something's different. Benchmarks. The
same way that you can watch the stock
market and you see is it doing better or
worse? And that's how you could judge
your financial adviser. How did you do
against the S&P last year? Right? Oh, we
had a great year. How did the S&P do?
You got 13%. That was 15%. You're not
better. So people to observe them when
they're deceptive. Most people add more
details when they lie. They add more
details to a story. Oh, you know, I I
want to come but my daughter's this and
that. [ __ ] right? Like as soon as
you start adding in more, you're feeling
the need to prove beyond. When people
tend to be cut and dry and say, "I'm
really sorry. I can't make it." Boom.
That tends to be true.
>> Y
>> not always, but more often than not.
Now, there are cases where certain
people are are are tight on words.
They're not very careless. So, somebody
who might say, "I can't make it." might
be lying to you. Is that different than
how they normally talk, check their
cadence. I believe that AI in the very
near future will become incredibly good
at detecting deception because if you
can watch somebody when they lie, watch
somebody when they tell the truth, watch
both of those with several examples. I'm
surprised they're not doing it already
to be honest, is that you can now view
the difference purely by objective
measures of how much time between their
words when they then speed up. Right?
All of those things that are very hard
to control, your body does it the same
way your heart rate goes up. If you had
a bender last night, your body doesn't
lie. You can't control the fact that if
you go for a workout and you're in zone
three the whole time when normally you'd
be zone two heart rate, oh man, my
body's working harder than normal. So, I
think that catching people in lies is
much easier than people expect. I do it
in a very hyperfocused way for my show,
which is at the end of the day one out
of 52 cards in this case. Or pick a
name. Think of the first letter. You'll
be like, "That's impossible." What was
26 letters? Also, nobody's name starts
with Q, X, or Z almost ever. So, we can
throw out those three, right? I have a
skill that looks impossible, but that
I've been studying for 30 years. Hence,
there's kind of tactics I use.
>> Yeah. I uh I think it's an interesting
one to think about what AI is able to do
to detect that because you've already
got it with the baseline metrics of a uh
polygraph,
>> right? Which is not those are not 100%.
At all.
>> You think that the verbal and visual
cues of someone's speech pattern cadence
observing their face would be more
accurate than a polygraph if you had a
>> very soon. Yes, I think so. I think that
in in conjunction with the polygraph,
but we're not going to be able to
polygraph people very often.
>> Yeah. Just on the street.
>> It's a hole to do. Have you ever been
polygraphed?
>> No. Have you?
>> Yeah.
>> How were you able to beat it?
>> So, I can't tell you if I was able to
beat it. I was actually on a TV game
show.
>> Okay. Which side were you one of the
contestants or
>> contestants? Okay.
>> Yeah. And so, I don't know if I could
tell you because the only way to know if
you beat it is you'd have to have access
to the results and we'd have to sit
there and do it together, which I that's
actually a pretty good idea for a show,
but I'm assuming
>> to see who the best deceiver is. Sure.
>> That would be sick.
>> Yeah.
>> Politicians.
>> What about you mentioned you mentioned
sales. You mentioned sales there. What
are what are some of the ways that you
teach people to become better sales
people, more confident as they step into
a room where they're nervous, more
commanding and likable.
>> Being vulnerable is a huge one. So, if
if you feel nervous, just saying that,
just allowing people into your head and
saying, "Hey, I've never done this
before. I'm actually quite nervous right
now, but you seem like a great person.
And I just want to tell you more about
what I'm like. Just anything that opens
you up that allows you to be human.
People hate fakeness. I don't if you
have somebody who's a great salesperson,
but they feel fake to you. Hey, I got to
tell you, you just see that's not you. I
can instantly detect deception that
that's not really you right now. And you
can detect it in a performer. You can
detect in a politician. You can detect
it in people very clearly. There's a
spider sense we have that we can't
explain. But right now, if somebody was
in the room that I didn't know watching
me behind my back, right, that wasn't
here. I could feel it. Do Do you know
what I mean? I don't know if it's sonar.
I don't know where it comes from, but
there's some way that you can sense a
presence near you. And I'm not talking
about ghosts. I'm just mean you can feel
someone next to you. Situational
awareness.
>> I think there's something similar to
that where you can detect authenticity.
And for me, if you watch my show and you
meet me in real life, I'm the same
person. I'm just slightly exaggerated. A
lot of other people that do what I do
aren't the same person when you meet
them. Offstage, they're not the same.
Comedians especially are not the same
people. Actors and actresses day and
night
>> by design.
>> Well, by design, but also it's shocking
when you meet some people and you're
like, "Oh, you're so different than what
I expected." It's kind of a cool thing.
You've probably met a lot of famous
people, but you're you're just not at
all the person I thought you would be.
So, right away, I think vulnerability is
a huge one. Being able to open up to
somebody at a moment's notice and being
real with them. Another one is know what
resistance is going to occur. I call it
channel your inner mentalist. Try to
think like they think. Stop thinking
like you. Most of us don't think in
terms of benefitsoriented language. I I
somehow learned this very young which is
if I go up to a restaurant cuz my hustle
when I was 14 years old, I started doing
magic tricks and I need to buy more
magic tricks was I went to restaurants
and I would get a job being a strolling
magician at the restaurant. And I real
at 14 I started I was 13 but at 14 I
need to make money. My folks had gotten
divorced kind of really messy and I we
had no money so like I had no disposable
income to be like give me an allowance
to buy this. So for me to keep doing
more tricks which I loved I needed to go
work. My mom was like go work and so
there was another restaurant magician
somewhere else in the city. So I knew
that was something you could do and get
tips and get parties and print business
cards. But I realized if I go in the
restaurant and just show them tricks,
what makes me special? They don't care
about that. They really they they might
be cool, but so what? What they care
about is we have a line of people
waiting to get seats. They're a little
annoyed. They're on edge. Go entertain
them while they're waiting. Someone just
had to send back a steak. It was
overcooked. You know what? Go sweeten
the deal. Go make them happy because the
next 10-15 minutes while everyone else
is eating, they're kind of low-level
pissed off. Now we have this little, you
know, song and dance boy. Head on over.
And so I realized that the language I
could use for them wasn't they're going
to be amazed. They don't care about
amazed. Every single person that leaves
this restaurant today is going to walk
up to you and say what a great time they
had and how they're going to come back
again with friends. Boom. That's what
they want to hear. The manager wants to
hear about sales, not about how good my
tricks are. So the more you can position
yourself as a value ad to the people
around you and what's important to them,
right? That's what's going to open
doors. That's what opened doors for me.
>> I had Will Guidara on
>> Oh, yeah. I saw his book. So funny.
>> It's everywhere.
>> Yeah. Yeah. He's crushed it. So, uh, 11
Park A, of course, with the number one
restaurant in the world for a while.
>> 11 Madison.
>> 11.
>> Is it 11 Madison? Yeah, I think so.
Okay. Um, anyway, he said, uh, he was
telling me this some of the crazy stuff
that he'd done. Uh, one of them was a
couple had
supposedly got married that day and the
wedding party was such a catastrophe
that they weren't able to have the
reception. They'd done the marriage
thing, but two families bickering,
backbiting, power games, all the rest of
it. And they had gone for dinner at this
place. They' booked the dinner for that
evening. So, one of the staff made it
her job to work out, they didn't have a
first dance. Made it her job to work out
what the first dance song would be and
they slowed the service for this couple
a little bit. So, they were the only by
the end of the evening, they were the
only people left in the entire
restaurant. And I think there's two
floors to it. And once they'd finished
up, they said, "Oh, you just head
upstairs. We've got we we've got to
thank you for you for they go into the
elevator and they go up and as they walk
out they played the first song that they
would have had at their wedding and all
of the staff had left slowly. All of the
different serving staff had left. They
thought you know we're kind of left
here. We were the last people here. They
were going upstairs so they were
welcomed for their first dance. Wow.
>> With the song and they they've never
that what an unbelievable way to reverse
like even cooler story maybe than having
the reception that you would have had
>> and uh yeah that it is very much what's
the emotionality how much can you sort
of penetrate somebody with that like not
just he was able to guess the cards but
the cards were also something special to
me. It makes it about this person.
That's that's the challenge in life,
right? Is to connect with other people
because I realize other people are going
to be the ones who open your door. Your
network and who you are is is a huge
factor of your success and happiness,
right? As you get older, you watch so
much more. I heard your Tristan Harris
we were talking about earlier where he
talks about how much lonier people are
now because you don't engage people in
real life anymore. It's all screens and
text. And it's so true. It's it's
prevalent for me. It's probably the same
as for you. I don't know how it is for
you, but I just I between family,
between work, there's just not as much
time. And especially if you're ambitious
and driven, I have definitely traded
career over friendships at various
stages where I can't be at this big
event. I can't be at this boy's trip. I
just it's impossible. I travel too much
for work. M
>> so when you have that drive and not
everyone has that same thing but at a
certain point I I I think that
connecting with people around you and
either forming very strong relationships
or bonds that go past like give and take
relationships are a huge one for me
where I feel that as I get older the
people around me that are just taking I
don't like that relationship I try to
find ones where you're able to keep
giving giving giving until the point
where you have to take and somebody
wants to give at that does that make
sense I'm trying I'm saying in a in a
poor way but the People that have stuck
around the longest for me are ones where
it's a back and forth. It's a constant
back and forth and it's not always just
take take take.
>> Yeah. What about confidence? A lot of
the time people step into a room,
they're nervous, they are about to do
some big presentation or some pitch. I
understand that likability can come from
vulnerability. I think that's a a cool
way to connect and also to kind of
>> stop the additional level of pressure
and shame that you feel about having
this hidden thing. you have this secret
that you're hiding from someone which is
that I do feel nervous or whatever but
how about getting over the nervousness
feeling more confident feeling more more
uh compelling and prepared when you step
in
>> confidence is a funny one because once
you become confident you ask yourself
why wasn't I confident 5 10 20 years ago
right experience leads to it how do you
fast track it
>> so I had a kind of a paradigm shift when
I was young when I was about 14 which is
I would go up to restaurants I would go
to the restaurants I would be going up
to somebody at a point where they don't
want me at all to walk up to them. It's
kind of like a telemarketer call.
>> I'm 14 years old. I walk up to your
table. Exactly. Exactly. You're So,
right away, I started to understand that
when I walk up to you,
>> if if they don't like me or they don't
like what my trick or anything about the
approach went wrong, it's just negative.
Some people wouldn't be that kind.
They'd be apathetic. Even worse than
telling you, uh, get away is to just sit
there and not pay attention and look at
you awkwardly, which is just brutal.
Just brutal.
>> And so, here's what happened. That same
thing you talk about confidence. I would
leave the table furious. I would feel
terrible. I if that happened at two or
three tables in a row, it would
compound. And by the time I got to the
fourth table, even if they were nice to
me, I kind of hated them.
>> Like a comedian chasing the audience,
>> but I had low-level rage. And I
realized, but truly, I can't I can't
allow you that power over me. I had this
real and here's why. It was selfish
because I go, if I can't keep doing
this, I'm not going to be able to buy
more tricks. It was it was very A to B,
very linear. And I go, if I can't buy
more tricks, how am I going to get
better at this thing? So, I said, I have
to find a way around this. It was a do
or die in my mind of I can't allow the
audience or in anybody else's case, the
people around me to dictate my
self-worth and my confidence. And what I
did was almost a weird schizophrenic
multiple personality thing. I decided
that I was almost two people. And in my
brain, I created this like split where I
said, "They don't actually know me. The
people that were just not nice to me,
they don't know me. Oes Pearlman. They
met Oes the magician. And I thought the
same way that a movie star has an agent,
the agent handles the negotiations for
contracts, right? You don't go to Brad
Pitt and say, "You can't have this
trailer. I'm not paying you $18 million.
You get 60 million." He has somebody who
does that for him, who doesn't who deals
with the dirty work. Now, most of us in
life don't have agents. So, I decided
that I now have an agent in my mind. And
when I walk up to you, if you don't like
me and you were asking me, I don't care
at all. The agent handled that. That
wasn't me. I didn't take it personal
anymore. And I know that sounds easier
to to to say than to do, but I truly
somehow disconnected the pain associated
with rejection, which is really what it
is for most people, the pain and fear of
rejection, and decided to put that on
someone else who wasn't my core psyche.
The best way I can liken it as a visual
metaphor is if you have a bowl of water
and if I take salt and I pour salt in
the water, that water once you stir it
is salt water. There's nothing you can
do about it. But if you could somehow
find a way to insert a piece of
plexiglass in the middle, it's
invisible. And I poured salt into only
one side. This other side stays fine.
So, I did this as a survival tactic at a
young age because otherwise I don't
think I could have made it through
continuing to do this job because the
rejection is so is so pronounced when
somebody just dislikes you. It's the
same as romantic rejection. I had
trouble with that as a teenager that I
wish I had that agent in my mind. I'm
like, "No, it wasn't the trick. She
didn't like me."
>> You weren't able to apply the agent
model to the romantic.
>> No, because like I didn't have anything.
There was no buffer. I'm like, "She just
doesn't like me. Damn it. I don't know
what to do. I can't get any taller. Yes,
I have shoes that are thick, but I don't
know what else to do. But if you can
find a way to do that, so when you go
into that presentation, be prepared.
There's no such thing as getting in
there being unprepared and saying, "Oh,
that's my agent. That's you who screwed
up." So, be prepared. Do your homework.
Practice. But when you leave, understand
that there are two different parts and
that you shouldn't assess your
self-worth based on if they rejected
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That's drinklnt.com/modern
wisdom. If you know these techniques so
well, how good are you at stopping
yourself from being manipulated?
>> Not great. There's It's funny because
>> god damn it, dude.
>> I think that that's funny because it's
it's almost like the chef who goes home,
you know, and it's like, you know,
exactly. It's ramen. So figure that one
out. Three Michelin stars, best
restaurant in the world, hitting up
Shake Shack afterwards. But I think that
I'm I'm very astute at being manipulated
in certain parts of my life versus like
my kids can manipulate me like crazy.
That love gene will will like mom said
you could do that. Like did she though?
Did she? Like full manipulation.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Like my son, this is so funny. He's in
like a after school uh math program
where I know for a fact he's not allowed
to use a calculator, but he was so damn
convincing. He's going to love when he
hears this. My my my nine-year-old is
going to love this. And he's like, "No,
we're allowed because we're going into
fifth grade." And he goes, "For certain
word problems, she told us that we
should use a calculator because it
enhances our skills." And I go, "There's
just no way that's true." He's like,
"Email her." And so he was trying to
call my bluff. So I
>> He knew that he you weren't going to
email her.
>> I freaking emailed her. Okay. And here's
what happened. She writes me back the
most dismissive email of like, "All of
our questions are designed for no
calculator." So no, there's no As if I'm
an idiot. Meanwhile, I now get in
trouble for my wife for how did you
allow him to outwitted by a 9-year-old.
emailed and now he looked at me because
he couldn't believe that he had gotten
me to email the teacher. So to answer
>> So he wins either way. Either gets to
use the calculator or managed to get dad
in trouble and look like
>> triple wins because if he hears this
podcast, he's going to be in heaven when
he hears this.
>> So yes, it was full manipulation. I
can't lie to you and pretend that I am
not manipulated either. But again, I
have a hyperspecific focus on what I use
manipulation for.
>> I am an honest con man,
>> if that makes sense. Our contract is not
one of I'm going to talk to your dead
aunt and tell you things and you're
going to pay me money.
>> I'm providing entertainment and
memorable moments in the guise of
deception. I tell you from the outset
that this is not real.
>> I had uh John Lyall on the podcast and
he was looking at uh MK Ultra.
He's great great historian researcher
here at University of Texas and he is
doing original research getting into the
archives seeing all of the notes of the
people that were getting the
electroshock therapy trying to do the um
complete reset on people to make them uh
pliable manurian candidate type things
>> on LSD too.
>> Yeah. Well, they were applying a lot of
LSD in an attempt to see if that made
people more pliable, more suggestible,
more able to. And there was a Charles
Manson wasn't a part of MK Ultra. He
wasn't a part of MK Ultra. However, the
fascinating thing is the story is people
believe Charles Manson was studied in MK
Ultra because
there was some additional skill he had
that made him good at leading a cult.
and maybe he'd learned that from the
CIA's investigations or there'd been
some sort of sharing of information in
that. That wasn't the case. He wasn't a
part of it. However, Charles Manson was
unbelievably good at manipulating people
and getting them to become suggestible.
So, he didn't learn anything from the
CIA, but John's line was the CIA could
have learned a lot from him,
>> right,
>> if they'd gone to cult leaders. Uh Danny
Treyo, do you know Danny Treyo?
Hollywood actor.
Yeah. Um he was in prison with Charlie.
Little Charlie, he called him Charles
Manson. And little Charlie was getting
beaten up to one of the smaller dudes
around the block. He's getting beaten up
by some of the other prisoners. He had a
rope for a belt and maybe he didn't even
have a belt. And he gave him a rope.
Danny gave him a rope. Danny and his
friends had heard that Charles, little
Charlie was able to get you loaded on
heroin just through your mind. And they
started letting him sleep in their cell
cuz they would protect him in return for
him giving them mental heroin. And he
did it to three of the guys. Only two of
them had ever had heroin before. And
apparently if you do heroin, you throw
up. You're likely to throw up when you
take it. The two guys that had done it
threw up. The dude that hadn't didn't
because he didn't know what his response
to heroin should be.
>> Right. Uh, but they were basically
painting the picture of Charles Manson,
this unbelievable reader, manipulator of
people that supposedly might have
learned these skills from the CIA, which
he didn't. But in fact, if the CIA had
really wanted to learn how to control
and manipulate people, they could have
gone to him and said, "Hey, you've got
some you've got some really strong
skills here." all of the cult leader
things that we've seen before. The fact
that people are able to bow down, give
over their life, their wife, their bank
account, their entire sort of spiritual
essence to whoever this person is,
>> right?
>> Because they've managed to sort of play
this conducting game.
>> They have there's there's a real I'm I'm
fascinated by cult leaders and just
everything about how they're able to win
trust and it's these incremental
changes. I liken it to kind of like a
cruise ship or a large tanker that when
it just turns one degree, it starts
changing one degree. Little changes over
time can start pushing you in that
direction of especially when you earn
trust. So w with my craft it's kind of
again I kind of guide you in a certain
way not for cult leader I'm not trying
to take anything from you but I can't do
it when you asked me earlier can you do
this with somebody who doesn't want to?
No it's it can't be done against your
will. That's you ask me what's the core
skill? Building trust, building rapport,
and connecting with somebody.
>> Why can't you do it against someone's
will ethically or they
>> they won't just think about it. If you
decide you don't want to take part, then
you'll say, "No, I'm not doing that. I'm
not doing that. Not it's like it's not
an against your will type of thing,
>> right? You need to have them,
>> I'm not going to touch those cards. I'm
not going to. You're just going to stop
me dead in my tracks. It's not something
you can do against your will."
>> Do you know if the same is true with
hypnotism? Hypnotism is interesting
because um people have a level of
suggestability and a good hypnotist will
check that as they go. So stage
hypnotist does compliance testing out in
the audience. They'll do something for
everyone. Put your hands together, close
them together, close your eyes, imagine
they're glued together and they'll see
who is the most suggestible
>> and based on that they'll bring you up.
>> Mhm. Are you you must be familiar with a
bunch of tangential skill sets,
hypnotism, magicians. Who else are
behind who else is sort of if there was
a dressing room of people doing stuff
similar to yours? Magicians, hypnotists,
who else is in there?
>> I would say standup comedians because
standup comedians in essence are
hypnotizing an audience in a certain way
and the best ones are guiding you kind
of up and down and there's a rhythm to
it and my show has a rhythm. So if you
were to watch a full show, I have I keep
playing devil's advocate as I go. If you
were watch my full performance, which
I'm starting a tour, so should we should
we plug this now? Absolutely. Yeah. So,
I'm I don't know when this comes out,
but May 2nd, I'm at the Win in Las
Vegas. Uh June 5th, I'm at the Borgata
in Atlantic City. And coming this
summer, I'm shooting a Netflix special,
which is going to be I don't know the
exact date yet. I don't want to, but
it's going to be in July in New York
City. Where should people go to find
out?
>> Everything is on my social. You can just
click the link, but I'm O's the
Mentalist. So, it's Oz looks like Oz the
Mentalist on everything. Twitter, Tik
Tok, Instagram. Go there, click the
link, get tickets, come see this for
yourself.
>> Unreal. I had uh Dr. David Spiegel on
the show and he is Stamford's head of
the uh hypnotism evidence-based sort of
uh hypnotism lab and he was saying that
you can have a single one-time
intervention for lifetime smoking
addiction that's got a 25% chance of
single intervention full cessation for
the rest of your life. And I think when
you do two or three or four sessions
that goes up to 50 to uh 60%. But again,
I would say that that and ask him is
that against somebody's will. So if
somebody doesn't want to quit smoking,
then that won't work is my opinion. But
if somebody comes in and they now
connect a core memory of something
disgusting, something that repulses you.
Again, there's different ways that they
do it. But I've seen smoking sessation
sessions. And now if you connect the two
together inextricably in your mind where
this thought of doing this is no longer
my feeling of I want to have coffee and
a cigarette in the morning, that feeling
of it now feels disgusting. It feels
like if you were to take a a bunch of
cockroaches and crunch them in your
mouth, if you could create those two
together in your mind on a subconscious
level, then you won't be able to do it
anymore. It will disgust you. Isn't it
funny that the human brain has got these
sort of weird keyholes?
>> Yeah. To trigger
>> you're able to slot into that hypnotism
is able to slot into that comedy is able
to slot into. And I with comedy, you can
kind of see why because normal
day-to-day human interaction, people say
things and you both share in a little
bit of surprise and delight. Isn't that
cool? When you get toward hypnotism, you
go, what is the mechanism that's going
on inside of the human brain? Why is it
there? Is it purpose-built,
>> right?
>> Or is this uh spandrel in the same way
that a light bulb gives off light, but
it also gives off heat? It's not
supposed to give off the heat. The heat
is just a byproduct of the light. A
human brains meant to have this. Is it
built in for us to be suggestible? Or is
it a byproduct of us having a few other
attributes that need to be important?
And by playing with it for a few
thousand years, humans have found out,
ah, actually I can tell something about
your cards. I can tell something about
your life. I can suggest you to behave
in this sort of a way or I can encourage
you to stop or start doing something.
Well, why do we dream? That's a Have you
ever Have you ever lucid dreamed?
>> A little. A little. Not much. So when I
was in high school and I this is no
connection. I wasn't doing mentalism. I
was doing magic. But I really was very
into like Carl Castanada. I was
introduced to those books and just some
with lucid dreaming and remote viewing
and all this kind of paris paranormal
things which I didn't know if I believed
or not but lucid dreaming is real. And
for about 6 months I I wrote a paper on
it my senior year in a psychology class
and I was doing it. So lucid dreaming do
you know the techniques to do it? These
might be rudimentary because they go
back about 25 years.
>> Okay. You do reality testing. So what I
used to do is I would wear a watch and I
became almost OCD level. I would check
my watch every five minutes. It's kind
of like the Leonard DiCaprio Inception
where he spins it. I would check my
watch every 5 minutes. And you have to
start doing this religiously so it
becomes a tick. Not a big deal. I check
my watch. I'd look at it. I'd look away.
I'd look back and make sure it was the
same time. I did this at school every
day. I did this throughout the day every
day. Then as you're going to bed, this I
didn't invent any of this. This is all
from a book. There's I I hope I'm saying
this word correctly, but it's the
hypnogogic stage. Hypnot. Do you know
how to say that word? Y.
>> So, as you're falling asleep, the best
way to do it is hold your arm at your
side up. And you know that moment when
you jolt right before that's when your
brain goes into that kind of that's the
most suggestible part of your whole
night. If you can hold your arm up right
before you go to sleep, everyone try it.
And right when you feel that, that means
you went into it. Now, start
self-suggesting. In my mind, I would
say, I will remember my dream. I will
remember my dream. and you will nod off
to bed within the next for most people
30 to 45 seconds. Once you feel that
jolt, if you say that as the last thing
before you go to bed, what started
happening is you will start to remember
anywhere from 3, four up to eight dreams
a night. This was my my my project. And
you'd wake up for a minute in between
the dreams. If you want, you can write
them down, but you'd start having very
vivid dreams. And within about a week of
doing this, the checking my watch in my
dream, I would now check my watch. It's
fully in our DiCaprio. I'd look away. I
look back. The watch is always a
different time if you're in a dream. It
never has consistency. So, I look at it.
Now, your brain goes into overdrive
trying to explain, well, this is the
reason why. The same reason that an
alarm in your in your house turns into a
car honking in a dream. Do you know what
I mean? Before you wake up. So, now your
mind is racing against you to try to
pull yourself out.
>> So, as you get better at it, you
realize, I'm dreaming right now. This
isn't real. I will not wake up. And now
you can take control of your dream. And
it's actually the coolest thing in the
world if you can put the in the work to
do it. I have had moments where I've
been lucid since without doing just
spontaneous. But I used to have lucid
dreams almost every night and it was the
coolest
>> playing a video game while you're
asleep.
>> It is truly it's the original virtual
reality.
>> It's better than virtual reality cuz
it's real.
>> Yeah. It's incredible. It's worth It's
not that hard to do which is most people
don't put in the work. I haven't put in
the work. I don't sleep that much
anymore. I've got five kids. But like
it's it was super cool at the time. And
I think that I realized at that point
there's much more to the mind and there
are these things which I don't think are
explainable. They're not mystical. But
why is that?
>> Why is that a skill that I could learn
within a week and be able to just take
control of my dreams?
>> It's like a back door in a computer
program. It wasn't designed to
necessarily be there, but for some
reason it is. And because we've tested
and played around with it so much,
people have found these ways to do it.
How long did it take you to do the to
learn to lucid dream?
>> I think within less than a week, I was
able to start doing it somewhat
consistently. And then it was because if
you again if you were to just do that
little changes, you know, like the
atomic habits you have to do like small
this was one that wasn't that hard.
Every five minutes check my watch. I
would always check my watch anyway, but
this was just more obsessive. But I
would only look at it once. Now was the
double tap. Look at it, take a moment,
then look back. If you just did that, it
started to become something. And then
when you in the dream, it was so crazy
because the dreams are just as real.
When was the last dream you remember?
Uh, so
>> I don't remember my dreams that
frequently anymore.
>> Uh, I had one last night that I kind of
remember.
>> How much do you sleep per night on
average?
>> Seven hours.
>> Oh, wow. That's Yeah. Much better than
me. Yeah.
>> No kids.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm I'm trying
to bank as much sleep as possible in
anticipation.
>> No, you might with kids, too. Everyone's
different, but I I just
>> I don't know any parent that has sleep.
I don't know any parent of of kids that
has that much good sleep.
>> I mean, no one's awake, but I just go to
bed later. I just don't want to go to
sleep because once they go to bed,
that's your only time that you get to
like,
>> [ __ ] I'm liberated. Holy
>> [ __ ] This nine-year-old that's
gaslighting me into letting him use his
calculator is finally gone. This tiny
little
>> pirate and the judgment from the tutor
who writes me back and you could just
tell that the the parenthesis was like,
"You freaking moron." Like you she
couldn't say that, but she wanted to put
that in the parenthesis.
>> Oh, it's so it's Yeah, that was amazing.
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>> When tricks go wrong
>> Mhm.
>> How first do I do I
>> They never go wrong. Perfect. Chris, no.
Uh, they they definitely go wrong.
>> Do any times come to mind where there
was a really big face plant? And I'm
also interested in how you recover from
that in front of a live audience,
whether it's big or small, because I
think that,
>> you know, someone meant to do something,
they messed up this thing that they'd
maybe planned or prepared. Perhaps it
was their fault or it wasn't their
fault. Something occurred just at the
right moment or the wrong moment or on a
sales call, they quote the wrong number
and that kind of they notice themselves
starting to lose it. What have you
learned about dealing with sort of
failure in the moment? Can we talk about
sort of the more fluffy side of failure?
Seeing yourself as a failure, the
self-labeling, the overcoming of the
self-rejection and the esteem side. I
think in the moment, winning back
because you have to do that. If you're
on the table and you mess up the first
one, you go, I I think I might be able
to salvage this. What have you learned
about dealing with it emotionally,
psychologically, and then also trying to
charmingly bring that back around?
>> So, I've gotten better like on a a
couple fronts. One, I've gotten better
at realizing that people remember uh the
beginning and the end more than the
middle.
>> Mhm.
>> So, how you leave someone is so much
more important than what happens before
that. If you can win somebody back over,
that will be the last feeling they leave
with.
>> Pandr.
>> Yeah. Huge. And people forget the misses
and remember the hits. So, and that's
the key to psychics. So, a lot of
psychics, if you were to sit in a room
and check off, what did you get right?
What did you get right? What did you get
right? They mostly get things wrong.
Right. It's kind of the Roger Federer.
He only won 54% of his points. He's
arguably one of the greatest of all
time. I love that stat. I won 54% of his
points but 80% of his games.
>> Exactly.
>> It's wild. So the win the right point.
So with me I realize that how I end is
the most important in a show and the the
ones that move you for me it's cuz I'm a
performer that what matters but there
are still major face plants. There are
things that go wrong and I actually find
I learn way more cliche but from the
mistakes because if there it's a mistake
that I completely didn't see coming, it
really eats me up of like what happened?
How did I misjudge that so much? And
some of those you learn from, some of
those you kind of take the hit and you
move on.
>> I learned in a big way for me is that
>> defining something as a mistake has been
a gray area for years. The only way that
you know if I made a mistake is if you
know what wasn't a mistake. Which is
funny because my career is a pick your
own adventure. Hear me out.
>> It's very clear in a football game if
you made a mistake because you lost the
game, right? the score at the end of the
mine isn't like that. That trick I could
have never shown you your date of birth
at the end and you would have still been
impressed. So it could have gone
completely wrong on my end and I would
have never gone or maybe there was a
second ending at the end of that that
you didn't know that was like the kick
kicker on the kicker that I didn't do
that went wrong that you didn't
>> the criteria for success hasn't been
defined therefore define what the ending
is. I'm going to guess not only your
cards, but I'm also going to make sure
that the cards are your birthday.
>> Exactly. So, what if that never
happened? So, what if that last bit
never happened? You didn't know went
wrong. So, I've learned that I don't in
essence foreshadow the ending in many
instances of what I'm going to do
beforehand. So, that if something will
go wrong,
>> get out of jail free card.
>> I get to get out get out of jail all the
time because you don't even know you're
in jail when you're performing.
>> So, that happens. But there before that
there have been mess ups and there's
also things where I take a big a big
leap of faith like I'm going for stuff.
I don't know exactly when this airs but
I'm hosting the White House
correspondence dinner this year. Uh
President Trump has never attended while
in office before ever.
>> So this is the first time. I believe
that that is not a coincidence that he
is coming uh somewhat because I am there
because in the past been comedians who
kind of roast him and my intention is
not to roast.
>> So
>> wouldn't it be funny if you got in there
and you decided to do a roast? It's like
we're not actually doing any magic this
evening. No mentalism.
>> Donald Tony Hinchcliffe, come on down.
It's just a [ __ ] Avengers assemble.
If people come in that Well, I mean,
that's the ultimate rugpole. You want to
talk about that? It's like you've spent
your entire career, three, four decades
doing this thing
>> just to fake this
>> to rug pull the president of the United
States into a night roast.
>> I I
>> I mean, you might lose
>> the long game.
>> You might be jailed, but uh I I think
that's the way that you should That's
the swan.
>> 50% of you would hate you. 50% of people
would love you. There's just
>> I actually think that probably mo almost
all people would love you. Even Trump
Trump's uh biggest supporters would love
to watch him go through a roast. He's
kind of like hilarious.
>> He's been roasted before.
>> That's true. But I mean Barack Obama
roasting
>> skin than most people think.
>> I I I Yeah, Barack Obama doing that. Um
the difference between us is that one of
us is going to be president. That's one
of the sort of genesis points
supposedly, who knows, of uh
>> him deciding that he was going to run
for office. That was the last time. 2013
was at it, but he wasn't there as
president.
>> Yes.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. And Barack sort of points him out
in the crowd. The difference is that one
of us is president or going to be
president. Hilarious.
>> I mean, it was it was
>> that's sick. So, have you got something
special planned for the Donald?
>> The most special thing I've ever planned
in my life. I think I think I again, you
never know what will happen, but my hope
is that it's kind of like the Joe Rogan.
When I when I guessed Joe Rogan's pin
code, there was a feeling of there's no
way that Joe was in on this. There's no
way Joe didn't even know that was going
to happen because you can register
surprise very clearly. It's very hard to
fake surprise. Y
>> it's truly like even an actor actress to
say if you know what's happening, you
can't. That's why a lot of the scenes
they do that are surprises, they
actually first take surprise them.
>> Yeah.
>> Uh like the Dard you know the Die Hard
when the drop the when uh Alan is it
Alan what's his name? Alan Rickman when
he gets dropped. Oh, spoiler alert, Die
Hard One.
>> Sorry for anyone who hasn't seen it, but
it's been 30 years.
>> The drop I was told I think I saw the
behind the scenes, the director's cut
is, do you know at the end when he that
they didn't rehearse that in the first
take they actually dropped him like do
you understand that he was it was Yes.
So the first was an honest one because
otherwise it's just like shooting a gun
if you know you jolt up because you
register before you shoot that you're
going to feel it. Your body freezes. So,
I I think that um I think that like
seeing Joe react to the pin code, he's
almost as high level as you know he's
not in on it.
>> Y
>> but 100x more is Donald Trump. Donald
Trump will not fake it for any
>> compliant man on the planet.
>> That will exactly there is no world in
which I can get him to do what I want
for any reason.
>> Guess the nuclear codes. That's a way to
do it. You'll see what I mean. Something
really [ __ ] gnarly. Something really
gnarly. like and a war has begun with
Russia, but at least the trick was
great.
>> Um, interesting on the first take thing,
McConna in Interstellar. So, when they
go down to the planet that's full of
waves and they lose an additional seven
years because they're down there for one
more wave before they can get out and go
back up to the the the ship. The ship's
been receiving all of these messages.
So, there's these backlogged messages.
>> Tasty.
>> Good. There we go. Um, these backlogged
messages for um
>> like two decades. And it's his kids. You
sort of watch his kids unfolding as
they're saying, "Dad, we haven't heard
from you. We don't know if he's going
to." That's the first take. The one that
they used was the first take. And he he
told me this story where he was saying
he was waiting sort of getting himself
in and people try and come and speak to
you on set before you're about to go in.
And he sort of did a this thing and he
watched it and sure enough the first
take that they did, I don't think he'd
seen what the video was going to be that
he was going to be reacting to. And I
mean, Danny Treyo told me this as well.
This is years ago when I spoke to him on
the show. And uh you know, you've got
some Mexican gangster dudes, like
massive Mexican gangster covered in
prison tattoos. They g you now need to
learn to act. Like
>> Danny's a fascinating human and an
interesting actor, but like not
classically trained. Right. Right. And
uh his whole thing was if you need to
walk into a room, sit down and take a
drink of water. You don't act like you
walk into a room, sit down and take a
drink of water. You just do that thing.
Right.
>> And unfortunately when you're talking
about emotional reactions after a while
it loses its I mean after the first time
50 60 70% of that emotional intensity is
gone and of the surprise almost all of
it's gone which is the same reason that
you don't want to do the same trick
twice. Comedians can't do the same joke
twice but musicians can
they are expected to.
>> Of course play and you don't do yellow.
>> If you see the killers and they don't
play Mr. Bright Side you feel short
changed. If you go back and watch Matt
Reefe do a set that he did last time,
which I think is one of the reasons that
crowd work is becoming so important.
It's such a I went to go and see Jimmy
Carr in Australia. He actually looked
after our clothes as we jumped in the
sea at Bondai Beach, which was the
oddest scenario that me and me and my
video guys and my friends went and
jumped in the sea. And Jimmy was like,
I'm going to look after the kit. So, we
sat on the grass on the edge of Bondi
Beach like dad was watching the clothes
as we jumped in and we came back and
he's like, "Right, I've got a gig to
7,000 people that I need to go and like
get dressed for." But Jim's like
afternoon was spent watching our stuff
as we [ __ ] about in the sea. Anyway,
um I went to go and watch him and he
does he must do I'm not kidding, dude.
>> 350 jokes in an hour and
>> Oh, he's a machine 40 minutes. Yeah,
he's you talked about sort of up and
down for comedians. Jimmy's more like
sort of an M140 D.
Uh, but even he's throwing a lot of
crowd work in. Yeah. And I think that a
big part of that is that it doesn't
matter. People ask you a question. It's
always going to be different. It's
always going to be new. You're in a new
place. And um yeah, the the differences
in terms of art form from musicians and
music, which is another keyhole in the
back of the human brain. Like why why
these rhythms? Why these harmonies? Why
these particular sorts of progressions?
Why tension and release? And why do we
like familiarity
in music? But we don't like familiarity
even watching a movie. You like watching
a movie, but usually the most amazing
time is maybe the first or perhaps the
second. But after a while, Avengers
Endgame just sort of starts to lose some
of the and then you need a break, right?
>> You take a break from watching
Interstellar for 5 years and then
>> even though comedy is different, some
comedies are better the second, third,
fourth, fifth time.
>> That's true.
>> Wedding Crashers. I can watch Wedding
Crashers anytime that movie. So I think
it's really interesting when you talk
about comedy movies because what you're
looking for are your favorite moments
moments.
>> Yeah. It's almost like a shared
microculture around that thing.
>> And perhaps the same thing's true with
types of standup. But for the most part,
if you're going to go and see a show,
you want a new joke, too. I know what
the I know what the answer to the only
time that you don't want that is if
someone is with you that hasn't been.
You're like, "Dude, you got to listen.
We listen to this one. Listen to this
one." But that's because you want the
special I know. I'm in the know. And
there's an awkward moment that's
involved exactly with that scenario when
you're showing to someone else something
that you really care about. There's this
moment of what if they don't think it's
funny and now they think I'm like and
and then you start justifying go no well
it's really funny to me like
it was he did it better the last time.
Yeah.
>> It's like being past it's like being
past the orcs cable at the front of the
car playing a like you got to listen to
this and looking back and everyone's
like
>> yeah that is very awkward. There is no
pain like that. Like playing a banger
that you think is it was your top played
song last year. Everyone's just like I'm
not a massive fan of Sleep Token, dude.
They kind of suck. Uh so
>> that's heavy pressure.
>> Recovering from fails, you know, how are
you going to feel, do you think, going
into this White House, the the the
dinner is that going to
>> I'm hyper prepared. It's it's really I'm
thinking of every scenario that can play
out to a degree and just thinking how to
how to kind of if in every road A B C D
what can I pull off? What can I do? Most
of it is centered around I'm going to be
trying to do the most amazing thing ever
for Trump.
>> That's the moment. Know that the people
in the room, it's also going to be on
live TV. That matters, but what matters
is the headline. What matters is the
clip. That's really in today's day and
age, what people truly remember is
typically one or two lines of text.
That's what they know. Think about it.
Think about people that you know of and
you you say, "Well, what do you know
them for?" Well, this well, tell me more
about that. Well, I don't you know, you
don't really know much more than that
anymore about a lot of people.
>> Yep.
>> Well, the simplest message is the one
that goes the furthest, which is a
problem because for the most part,
answers to the big questions that we
care about aren't simple. But the ones
that are most memeable, most repeatable,
most memorable are the ones that go the
furthest. So you actually end up with a
world in which the answers become less
satisfactory and less accurate as the
world's demand for answers becomes
greater. And the ones that actually are
correct are the ones that are overlooked
because they're too complex or too
nuanced. So it's it's too much work.
It's too much work for me to work out
what this actually is. I would much
sooner just have this simple four-word
sentence. That's great. That works for
me. So yeah, you're right. you know,
clipping culture has kind of moved into
print culture and memory culture as
well. It's everything.
>> How short, condensed, and uh pure, how
weapons grade can I make this one thing.
>> It's a shame, but it's also what defines
people. You know, there's a the peak end
rule, which is what you use the most
memorable part of any experience tends
to be the most emotionally salient bit,
the most intense, and the end. And
sometimes they're the same. That's why
bands tend to finish on their biggest
song. That's why comedians tend to
finish on one of their best jokes. I
imagine that the same thing is true for
you when you design your set as well,
like, oh, it's going to be the big
finish, so to speak. I tried to do the
same thing with my live show.
>> Um,
>> I had this idea, the peak hate rule,
which is that uh cultural commentators
and individuals in um popular culture
are defined by their biggest drama and
their most recent one. So if you're
Jordan Peterson, um you are someone who
pushed back against Bill C16 in Canada
and also whatever the [ __ ] he's done
recently, right? Something to do with
Christianity. Uh if you are Hassan Per,
then you said that America deserved 911
and whatever he did recently around
Iran. Like everybody online is defined
by their biggest blow up and their most
recent blowup. And the same thing is
true for the answers that we're looking
for as well. It's like what is the
simplest way to define who this person
is? Well, we know who this person is.
And I think that, you know, one of the
criticisms that gets thrown around or
one of one of the explanations for why
people hate um criticism is the only
criticisms that hurt are the ones that
we believe,
>> right?
>> I don't think that that's true. I think
the criticisms that hurt most are the
ones that we know aren't true, but that
we fear other people might believe.
>> That's Yeah,
>> that's what optics management is.
Because it's not just the pain of being
misrepresented, it's the indignation of
knowing that it's not true and the fear
of thinking that other people might
believe it.
>> Yeah.
>> That altogether I think is kind of the
eye of the storm of feeling really
really hard done by. It's like I'm being
scapegoed for this thing. I don't
deserve to be. I know that it's wrong
and I'm worried that other people are
going to believe it. That is a real
trifecta. Uh so yeah, that's why the
optics management thing is important.
But dude, Trump I mean if you want
somebody that has just inbuilt hilarious
responses I would roll dice in front of
him and I think that whatever he would
do would probably be pretty hilarious.
>> There's no there's no bad reaction. So
if if he's angry, if he's happy, if he's
not amazed, if he is amazed, it's a
litmus test. It's almost like a mood
ring. The mood ring is based on the
person observing it, not based on his
reaction. Does that make sense? So if I
guess something it's fully is because if
I guess something if he is uncomfortable
by it or he's amazed depending on what
your view is of him you will emotionally
register that. Does that make sense?
Like I might get something even if he
says I got it wrong I would say did I? I
don't think I think that a lot of people
I think that the majority of people
would say I think he got it right and
Trump's lying. Do you understand? I I I
actually think it's an asymmetrical
upside bet with whatever I'm going to do
>> because and so I've worked out the only
thing that could happen that's terrible
is apathy. Apathy is the worst. Like
absolutely not caring or not being
engaged. Um or not being involved, which
is that's my real
>> and that's when you pull out the roast.
>> Yeah. That's when Tony Hinchcliffe jumps
out. Shane Gillis gets Shane out here.
>> You've got him in your pocket.
>> Shane can really nail that. Shane is Do
you know Shane?
>> Of course. Yeah. Yeah. What I'm
interested in what you think your work
teaches us about how unreliable our
perception of reality is, you know, very
>> Yeah. What have you learned about that
about people's attenti?
And it's been my mission to exactly
create these moments of wonder and
amazement that can't be explained by
seemingly reverse engineering the human
mind, knowing how people think and using
that knowledge against you in a certain
way. and doing this. I've done this for
some of the most successful and
literally of the top 10 wealthiest
people in the world, the majority of
them. And knowing that they've run
companies, built companies, and I'm not
saying that your measure of wealth is a
measure of your intelligence. I've also
done this for people who won Nobel
prizes. None of those things are
defacto. IQ doesn't have anything to do
with the way in which I fool you and use
>> your behavioral like your knowledge of
your behavior against you and knowing
how people think to trick them in a
certain way because misdirection magic a
lot of things the core principles
>> what do I I'm blown away by how easily
people can be fooled
>> it's wild because it's like what you
just said you said there's a keyhole in
the back there's a certain set of tricks
it's like a lock that you you have to
you you know certain locks the key
doesn't really work. I call it the
Jiggle Master 3000. But if you hit the
door a certain way, click up, click
over, it opens. Yeah. Like I had one of
those apartments in college where if I
gave you the key, you can you'd be like,
"Dude, the key is broken." And I'm like,
"No,
>> it's both a combination lock and a key
lock.
>> It's everything. I have to lift it up
while I do it cuz the lock is not
straight." And then I have to kind of
like jiggle this way and then turn. And
if I did it, I'm like, "Don't you know?"
Dude, it's broken. It's a jiggle master
3000. Your brain is the same way. And
all I've done is learned how to use the
keys in different way where if it
doesn't jiggle this way. If I say to you
this, do this. And you're like, "No, I
can see that you're going to move a
little this way, a little this way, and
now I've got you." And what people want
in general is to feel like they're in
control. And I know when people heckle
me, people always think the hecklers are
the tough ones, the skeptics. I think
that's easier because if you can figure
out what is the core motivating factor
for them, what is it? Is it attention?
Is it not looking like they're stupid?
Is it not being the center of attention?
What's driving their behavior at this
moment? If you can figure out what that
is, give them what they want within a
seeming set of parameters that they've
chosen, but you've chosen. So again,
within the guys of my show, that person
wants to call me out. Great. I'm
prepared for it. Call me out. Oh man,
you're a smart guy. You know exactly.
Come on up here. Let's get you. And now
you've gotten that shy. You've gotten
that love. You've felt like you're the
smarter person. I've shown you behind
the curtain in a certain way for certain
people. and then I do something you
don't understand that's more impressive,
now you've bought in. So the same way
that a very good comedian
>> neutralizes a heckler, not by punching
down where the crowd turns against you,
>> but more of we laugh together at this
person in a perfect world. They laugh
with you so we've all won together. It's
not a zero- sum game. The same thing
applies with me. I'm constantly trying
to see how I can get to the end goal,
which is a huge amazed reaction. kind of
alchemy in that way.
>> It's it's jazz I would describe it. I
don't have the song set up. I have
different ways that I can go. I go from
brid this bridge this chorus different
melodies and I'm kind of playing people
as I go.
>> And that's why I've gotten better. I
think if you ask me 5 years ago how good
were you? I'm like much worse than now
much
>> because I I I improve with time. I'm
curious to see what I'll be doing in
five or 10 years.
>> Yeah. Well, levitating maybe. I um I I
definitely watching Jimmy
work the crap. I mean, it was 7,000
people at the Tik Tok arena in uh it's a
Tik Tok theater, I guess, but it's a a
big boy in uh Darling Harour in Sydney.
And you know, shout out to Bondi Beach,
Tuji Beach. One of my favorite runs in
the whole world. That is such a
beautiful run.
>> I cross the front.
>> Yeah. And then you go long. Yeah. It's
like I don't remember how long it was,
but I've done that run. I performed in
Sydney once and it was awesome. Are you
still doing I know you said you ran with
Casey Neistat yesterday. Are you still
pushing on the endurance stuff at the
moment or what?
>> So I right now what's happened and I
always have excuses. Do you know do you
know Ken Ride Out?
>> Yes.
>> Yes. I just did his podcast recently and
Ken's like that guy just man I I like
seeing people. He's got four kids. He's
so busy. Wrote a book and just keeps
executing and he kind of reinvigorated
me that day where I have all these
excuses. Screw that. My baby's old
enough now. She's almost a year old.
She's sleeping. There was some
difficulty where if I don't sleep the
night, it's very challenging for me to
get up at 5:00 a.m. I can make all the
excuse I want. If I've only slept 2
hours, I could be tough talking. I could
call David Gogggins, be like, "Stay
hard. I want to go back to bed." So now
I've I've dialed in where I'm waking up
5 or 5:30. I'm getting an hour and a
half to 2 hour run. No excuses. Get it
done before anyone's awake. And I had
that a few years ago, too. And now I'm
getting I'm finding myself again because
for about a year I just wasn't really
with it. And now I'm doing I've got a
marathon in a week and a half and I'll
probably do an ultra
>> White House dinner.
>> Uh I'm doing the marathon six days
before. But that's I would run a
marathon that day if I could. I might
run a marathon that morning. That's not
a big deal,
>> dude. Holy [ __ ]
>> Anything less than 50 miles does has no
material impact on me. Like
>> How old are you?
>> I'm 43.
>> Jesus Christ.
>> But a 100 mileer 100 mile give me a
little run for the money. But I'd like
to do 100 mileer this year. At least
one.
>> But you did 100 miles inside of Central
Park.
>> 116.
>> Yeah. just four years ago today.
>> Congratulations. I mean, you're kind of
an insane person.
>> We didn't even talk about the running,
but the running is a different form of
mind control where just I like to find
out what I'm really capable of. And I
think that so few of us
>> know what we're capable of because it's
so easy to talk about stuff when you're
not in it. But until you push yourself
mentally or physically into a certain
point of complete discomfort where you
hit a breaking point, I think it's kind
of like the way military operators are.
You don't know if that person, why do
they do these SEAL trainings? Why do
they hell week? Right? Because you can
talk tough, but before you get there,
you're freezing cold. You haven't slept.
All of these factors are working against
you. Your core motivating factors, like,
do I really want it that bad? How bad do
I want it? I I haven't done it, so I I
couldn't tell you. But I want the guy or
girl who's next to me in a life or death
scenario to have made it through that
training and found their motivating
factor that they want this so bad that
they're willing to do this because that
can't be faked. And so you have to push
yourself. So the running is one of those
things where I like to get to a certain
point where I hate it. Don't want to do
it. Feel miserable. Body broken. Ideally
heat exhaustion. I've had heat stroke
which is very dangerous. Don't recommend
that. Got through it. Somehow got second
place at that race. don't ask. But, uh,
everything like breaks down and I 100%
want to give up and I talk myself out of
it. That that right there changes who
you are afterwards. It's like a flips
the switch where now when you go back to
regular life where things are
comfortable, which everyone's different.
I know a lot of people are struggling,
but call it comfortable is you're not in
danger. Now, you can readjust how you
handle situations, I feel. So, for me,
that was the running. The
ultramarathoning really does that for
me.
>> What have you learned about being able
to push through that discomfort? You
know, you
>> that I can do it. That I can do it. That
it's it's your mind plays tricks on you.
Your body your your body is directly
impacted by the way you think. I had I
had a race called the Spartan. Uh it's
in my book. I love this race. Such a
dumb name. I know.
>> It's a great race. It's
>> alpha spartathlon 3000 killer. So it's
it's called Spartathon for a reason
because you run from Athens to Sparta.
>> It's 153 miles and it's recreating um
the run that Fidipities did for the
movie 300. Did you see 300 with Gerard
Butler? So I'm not going to tell you the
whole story, but like that moment where
the 300 Spartans defended against the
Persians, if they had not held
Thermopoly, the Greeks couldn't have
assembled an army. They wouldn't have
come. They wouldn't have beat them and
we wouldn't have civilization today. The
Greeks paint it in a very So the country
rallies behind this race and it's this
cockami. You have 36 hours to run 153
miles. It is really tough. And I will
tell you that all these other races
you'll hear about, some of them are very
difficult. There's 200, 300. The cut
offs, okay, are very easy on those
races. No offense,
>> the pace.
>> The pace. There's just, yes, it's harder
to run 200 miles or 300 miles, but not
if you have six days versus a day and a
half. Just space out. You have to be
running the whole time. If you take a
nap for an hour, get up, walk for an
hour, you're toast. You get hit by the
cutoffs.
>> I did that race the first year. I did
not finish. And when you don't finish
the 36-hour race, I got swept, which
means I gave up in the middle of the
night. The cutoff was behind me, but I
gave up. I'm I know I can look in the
mirror. I gave up. I was puking for 8
hours. [ __ ] I gave up. I could have
kept going. I went to bed in a hotel,
woke up, had lunch, and watched people
that were older than me, that were less
physically fit than me. I was a 225
marathoner at the time, which is quite
fast.
>> That's [ __ ]
>> Yes. My fast was 223. I'm with a guy
who's never run more than a four
fashioned a 4-h hour marathon. He
finished the race when I didn't. That
changed me for life because I I was
crying. I was like watching him and I
felt so great for him. But I realized at
that moment it had nothing to do with my
body. Nothing. It's like the Matrix when
Neo jumps. It's not your body, it's your
mind. I gave up. And I realized at that
point, you have the ability to flip that
switch. And everything is excuses in
life. everything. I've seen people who
are like paralyzed who go play
basketball and do things. It's it's
people have a decision where they decide
are the factors external to me the one
that decide what I do or internally I
can make things happen and be relentless
in my drive. I came back the next year I
was going to die before I didn't finish
that race. It was a complete mental
shift. It was no question I am going to
finish this race and I did. And so it
was just a complete different shift in
mentality. And again it's stupid. It's
ridiculous. It's not necessarily
healthy. I'm not telling people to run
an ultra, but what I got out of doing
that undoubtedly has allowed me to
achieve the success I've had in the rest
of my life since
>> because it recalibrated my mind from
like to I know what a real 10 out of 10
is. Before I knew what a six out of 10
was and I could lie to myself about what
the other four out of 10 was for effort.
Now I know that if I decide without
question I'm going to do this, I'm going
to do it. And I can look in the mirror
and tell myself I know I'm going to do
it. So fascinating that you've spent a
long time trying to understand how other
people's minds work and to manipulate
and guess those appropriately. Uh but a
good part of the lab that you've learned
that in has been internal.
>> Yeah.
>> In yourself.
>> Well, everyone I think you probably I
still have imposter syndrome. I still am
in rooms where I go, how am I in this
room right now? How is am I where you go
back to some part of yourself that was
probably the most insecure? So, like
maybe 15-year-old me is still somewhere
in me. And there's like I don't know if
it's trauma or what, but you don't
really believe you deserve it, but you
have to earn it. So, I I still have
those
>> I could be as confident as you could
think of on live national TV, millions
of people watching. Some part of me is
in there that's still that person. But I
think overcoming that person is kind of
the mental talk that you give yourself
is it's there, but I've now earned the
fact that I think I'm here. I've worked
hard. I deserve it. and I'm gonna tell
myself that I'm gonna kill it.
>> What's the biggest lesson that you've
learned about overcoming that imposter
syndrome?
I don't know if you can ever overcome
it, if that makes sense. Because
overcoming it means it doesn't stay
there. I think that it helps me in a
certain way where if I have a show that
other people will think was a 10 out of
10, it might have been a seven and a
half out of 10 for me. And I'm going to
be the one who says, "How could I have
done that better?" And it's a relentless
drive to improve and iterate and
improve. And I actually see some people
who are in my field who I don't want to
say I'm jealous cuz that's the wrong
word, but I envy in a certain way where
they go, I just killed it. That show was
amazing. That was And I'm like, how do
you believe that? Because I have the
best show ever. I'm still looking on how
to polish it, how to make it better, how
to improve. You have found such
fulfillment and satisfaction in not
necessarily mediocrity, but I'm obsessed
with being the best ever at what I do.
>> It's very difficult though if you don't
have that level of intense self-crutiny
to become the best ever at what you do.
>> And I might never become the best ever,
but if I never stop going for that, I
think I will continuously improve. If
you had the mentality of someone who was
happy with where they were at or was
more grateful. It's interesting that
gratitude and performance a lot of the
time a kind of inverse because the
gratitude helps you to not push so much
to not
>> self assess and scrutinize and
self-criticize and improve and continue
to sort of exist in that lack. And you
know this is a a balance I think that a
lot of people are looking at at the
moment which is well how much do I want
to have a string of more miserable
successes that reach a higher peak
>> right
>> and how much do I want to trade some of
that in place of being happy right
>> contentment unfortunately by design you
know it's radical in the modern world
that's filled with ambition and a
meritocracy and capitalism and people
trying to acquire as much status and a
claim as they can it's radical to say
I'm satisfied like that's one of the
most radical things that you can It
feels like you're dying. People like,
"What do you do next? What's next?"
>> Like, as soon as I do this, even if it's
the biggest moment of my career, this
White House correspondent center,
"What's next?" Be the question you get
the next day,
>> right?
>> It's very funny how that exists,
>> bro. I I whenever middle of December
last year, I didn't know that it was the
day that the Spotify charts were going
to drop. And Modern Wisdom was eighth in
the world on Spotify. It was amazing for
a bit. And then
>> I saw that. I saw you post that.
>> And then
>> then you started saying, "How do I get
to seven?"
>> Yeah. You go, "Well, if I'm anything
less than eight next year, if I'm not in
the top 10, I might as well kill myself,
>> right?
>> And if I'm eight, then it's just about
acceptable. If I'm seven, it'll be okay
again for a while."
>> And you go that you can see laid out in
front of you what the hamster wheel
looks like.
>> It's a hamster wheel,
>> correct?
>> And so that's a very funny thing and
it's very hard to relate to. So, I feel
like it's an obnoxious thing for me to
say and you can relate to it, but it's
it's that when I'm things are at their
best for me, it's almost it should be
the happiest, but it's almost an inverse
because now you say I can only go down
from here.
>> Yeah. If you're number one, there's only
one place to go.
>> There's only one place to go.
>> The higher you climb is the further you
fall, dude. And look, this is this is
the gold medalist syndrome. Michael
Phelps is kind of the canonic. Look at
um Tiger Woods, right?
>> Tiger Woods. You the goats. And this
week, he just flipped his car for the
second time. I think he's been in a
traffic accident that maybe it's because
of alcohol or some drugs or maybe, you
know, something that's going on inside
of his mind. Like, do you want like
that's the price you need to pay to be
the best in the world. That's the price
that you need to pay in order to do
that. And it's a rare time. I was with
um some guys in Byron Bay on tour and uh
one of them made a really interesting
point. He says, "I'm not interested in
people that are just successful anymore.
It's like I'm interested in people that
are successful and happy and balanced
because that's so much rarer." So much
rarer. The success thing is hard,
>> right?
>> But success and happiness is easily
three times harder and the success and
happiness and balance is like 10 times
harder than that,
>> right?
>> So yeah,
>> and I think what I'm seeing as I
continue in life and something that if
you do have children, I don't like judge
it in a certain way, but children
instantly give you a sense of your
mortality. It's there's nothing else
that did it for me before and that might
be age related, but I don't think it
was. I think that as soon as you see the
next person, you just realize that you
are just
>> one day I'll be gone.
100%. That's so true. You don't really
see it or feel it as much until you see
someone else who's your continuation.
>> Who's your continuation? Also, somebody
that you instantly want them to outlive
you.
>> So, that it's hardwire in your DNA where
when your children, it's this really
crazy thing when they're at a certain
age. It's usually between four and five.
They realize death and what death is.
And sometimes you get these really like
just crushing moments where they would
say to you, "I don't want to die or I
don't want grandma to die." And you're
like, you don't know what to say because
we're all going to die unless we get
uploaded to the cloud. I don't know
what's going to happen, but as of now, I
don't want you to die either. But you
have to explain to that person that they
will. And they're not going to
understand what that is. And most of us
don't because we're in a society that
really doesn't. We push death away and
we don't really get to experience like I
have a good friend who's a a palative
nurse who experiences death all the
time. And for them, it's so different
because they're really with it. They
they understand it, they see it. But for
us, how often do you see anyone dead?
like on a one handful I can tell you in
my whole life. I just haven't
experienced somebody seen someone die or
seen somebody immediately after they're
dead that's not at a funeral. like
literally twice I saw somebody come out
of a of a of a lake that had drowned and
it was you know it was like a just a
shocking thing because in the movies
it's one thing but it's it's not um it's
not something you experience and knowing
that you will die one day I think is a
liberating thought and it's one of those
things where it takes the edge off of
when you say failures I go what does it
matter in 500 years nobody knows who I
am you are any of this and that actually
feels freeing to me in a certain way
>> all of their opinions don't matter in
any case
>> but that allows me to realize how much
stuff that I think right now is a big
deal isn't. And I have this little thing
I call fast forward your feelings where
I get caught up in anxious moments of
things I don't want to do that I dread.
And I didn't know what to do with it
because I would just push them off like
the classic procrastination of if I
don't want to make this call, I'm not
going to do it or I'm not going to do
I'm going to keep moving my calendar.
And finally, I just decided how bad does
this feel right now on a sense of on a
scale of 1 to 10? How awful do I feel if
I were to do this? And I'm like, uh,
like eight or nine. I just really don't
want to. Right at that moment, do you
know what I do? I set an alarm for 24
hours from today. I force myself just
like ripping a band-aid, jumping in a
pool, set an alarm 24 hours today, and
write, "How do you feel?" It's my alarm.
And I would do it right then. I would do
the thing I wasn't supposed to, didn't
want to do right then. I would force
myself. Pick up the phone, hit call.
[ __ ] don't do. And I would just do it.
And do you know what? When the alarm
went off the next day, if I even
remembered it, I would say, "How anxious
do I feel now?"
>> Two. Yeah.
>> Not even. And so I decided the same way
that I trick people's brains for a
living, I'm going to start tricking my
own brain. And when I call it fast
forward your feelings, it sounds so
stupid, but when I say to it right now,
I go, I'm going to feel like a two
tomorrow. I'm going to do it right now.
And I'm going to feel a two right now
instead of an eight because I actually
am in control of my like mental
disposition. It's just a trick. Your
mind is just a series of chemicals
that's tricking you to do that. That's
what the ultra running taught me. When
your blood sugar goes low when I'm
running, I go through a checklist of
what's wrong right now. What's wrong?
And the number one culprit almost always
is my blood sugar's low. When that
happens, I start saying, I want to quit.
I feel terrible. I don't want to do
this. Boom. Right away, take a ton of
calories. See how you feel in five
minutes. Don't talk to me before that.
Five minutes. Talk to me. And when I say
me, I mean me to myself. But I just
realized through these different parts
of my life what's really going on. I
>> mean, that's Ross Edgley's thing, right?
Suffering strategically managed. He
looks at the component parts of what it
is that's making him not feel so good in
the moment.
>> Smart. He diagnoses diagnostics test
like on an engine. And man, I want to
meet him. You got to introduce us cuz
I'm a huge fan of that guy. He's a
[ __ ] man, dude.
>> Just a shout out to Ross. I DM'd him
once. I'm like, Ross, you're
unbelievable. He's like, "Thanks, bro.
Like, you're you're a beast." Well, the
most of those guys, at least dudes that
are really really pushing themselves,
there's something deep down that's a
there's a kind of a darkness. There's an
edge to them. There's only two guys that
I've ever met that haven't had that and
are in that world. And one's Nick Bear
from Bear Performance Nutrition. Okay.
>> Uh and the other one's Ross Edgely. And
I really really tried to push him when
we sat down together and then we got to
hang out afterward. And I'm like trying,
you know, trying to negotiate.
>> What are you running away from? What are
you running away from?
>> Yeah. What where's the shadow? And he is
just he's just got this big happy hippo
energy that I I I couldn't I couldn't
find anything. I couldn't see anything
there. He just really wants to maximize
his time on this planet. He's really
excitable and excited about doing
things. And uh that's kind of even more
terrifying.
>> Yeah,
>> that's kind of even more terrifying that
it's simply just a pos a positive
disposition putting yourself through
suffering. So I think we understand the
alchemizing of pain into purpose. But
just just choosing pain without the
alchemy thing in that I think is is yeah
he's he's he's an animal dude. He's
>> there's so many people that have become
sober. There's there's like a weird
overlap of people that are sober that
are now in ultrarunning because you
convert one addiction for another.
>> And I'm not saying that's good or bad. I
think it is probably better than
substance abuse typically to go do
running even though it's left to be seen
what damage you're doing. But I think
it's better
>> Yeah. to a degree, but uh it is
fascinating how people will want to push
things to extremes and that you watch
them and at its at its greatest like
Alex Hanold who I just admire so much
>> is watching people risk is one thing
like I don't want to do that but the
fact that somebody else does that brings
me tremendous I don't know if I want to
call it joy because I'm not joyful when
I watch them do it but just wonder like
I I I rewatched Free Solo recently with
my kids because we watched the
skyscraper thing and every time I watch
it, forget about the the the the like
fact that my hands get sweaty and that I
feel a physical like tremendous feeling
when I'm watching it. The fact that
every mistake is death and that you're
watching it and I know he's not going to
die, so why am I so nervous?
>> But just the fact that you're willing to
commit to something like that and that
there's people in the world inspires me.
It's like that wow people will take
something and just go for it. It it's I
think that's what we want is to be
inspired.
>> Unreal. So coming up next, White House,
then Netflix special. Two big things.
>> The two big things and a few shows. I'm
starting to tour. So for the last like
10 years, I've been mostly a corporate
act. If you saw me was at corporate
events, but now I'm doing more and more
public shows. And I want to try one more
thing with you.
>> Okay.
>> I leave you on a high note.
>> All right.
>> I walked in here, right? Beautiful
studio.
>> Thanks.
>> We shook hands. You hit me up with some
delicious drinks, by the way.
>> It's good.
>> And I said to you that the same way I
asked you, how many podcasts I want to
go through this? How many episodes have
you had as this podcast?
>> 1,100.
>> So 1,100 moments that hopefully have
given people modern wisdom. That was the
name of it, right? Successful,
interesting people. Find out what makes
them tick. All of that sum total has
gotten you to be here from February
23rd, 1988 to today. So I want you to
close your eyes, okay? And I want you to
imagine that you could hop into a time
machine. But the time machine is to go
through your own life as if you could
rewind the same way people say in their
last moments they get to see their life.
And if I were to say to you to zip back
in time and look into the face of
someone who for whatever reason, and
this is only in the eye of the beholder,
impacted you in some way. This could be
great, this could be small, this could
be recent, this could be years ago. I
prefer I I would say not this year
because it's too poignant. There's a
recency bias. If you just pick a recent
guest and you say, "Oh, I spoke to Sam
Harris or Tristan Harris." No good. I
don't like that.
>> I want you, this is more of a right
brain exercise at first to see if you
can visualize that person's face. Can
you see?
>> You want someone from the show?
>> No. No. I'm so sorry. I had nothing to
do with the show. I That's not That's
not the way. No, I want to make sure.
It's someone that had an impact on you.
I don't know why, what, or how.
>> Yep.
>> Open your eyes.
Now, when I did this, right, and I had
you think of someone's name, and now I
had you think of their face.
>> Mhm.
>> Someone popped in your head initially. I
know.
>> Mhm.
>> And you go, I don't know whether you
said to yourself, that's too obvious of
a choice or I don't know what, but
always you think of someone and there's
a hesitation and you go, should I do
that person? It's just that should I?
And then you switched.
>> I believe this is very funny because I
can't explain why, but it's the
difference in body language. I think you
switched genders. I think you started
with a female and went to a guy. Am I
correct?
>> Yes.
>> I could tell. I could tell because if it
was two women or two guys, the reactions
are similar. You say you asked me about
like lie detection. I can tell when
things are different. Yep.
>> Rather than knowing if they're true or
false, but true and false are different.
All right, let's try this. The female.
>> Mhm.
>> The female. I'm gonna get something. You
know what?
>> Think back in time
>> and I'm gonna put you on the spot here.
Mhm.
>> Rewind. Rewind to I don't know when this
was. So if you were to put a time stamp,
if we had a pin
>> now, if it was if I asked you an
anniversary, you'd know the day, month,
and year.
>> If if it's more wishy-washy, like I
played cricket and uh it was like a few
years. Is this
>> a month, day, and year? A year, a month,
and year? Like give me some sort of
categorization.
>> Uh with the female,
>> whatever it was. Yeah. I don't
>> Yeah. With the with the first person, uh
it would be a year.
>> A year.
>> Yeah. So one's a year. Now you you the
fact that you even said that means with
the female means that it's different
with the male. With the male, what would
it have been?
>> Month and year.
>> Month and year. That's more details.
Let's go with that. Yep.
>> That sounds fun.
>> Think back in time. So it's 2026. I know
you're born in ' 88. So we'll go back
from the time machine forward. You
probably don't remember the first 10
years of your life as vividly. Maybe you
do. So 90s,
>> the as or the zeros, we don't call them
the teens. You laughed. It's in the as
come on. That was too easy. Think odd or
even. Odd or even. Odd or even. Odd or
even. Now you get confused if it was
2000 or 2010 because you don't know if
zero is even or odd. So I'm like torn. I
think it was an odd number. Was it an
odd number?
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. 2007, wasn't it?
>> Am I right?
>> Yeah.
>> I want to make sure that the person
watching this now who's skeptical, who
says, "Oh, he must have researched
this." Now, here's what I would say to
that. If I had asked you to think of
your third grade teacher, then maybe I
could have found out your third grade
teacher in advance, right? Let's be
skeptical. But I want to make sure you
understand there's no way to research
real time thoughts because you could
have thought of anything. I didn't tell
you. You completely decided where we
would go. Are we in agreement? Yeah.
>> And you even changed your mind. Yeah. I
didn't tell you. You changed your mind.
Think beginning, middle, end. I'm going
to go. You can't see the camera behind
me, right? Mhm.
Let me ask you a question. Why do you
know the month? Why do you know the
month?
>> Because when I met this person, I
remember where I'd moved into.
>> Yes. That's why I thought that's why I
went with this because I thought it was
something to do. Okay. What month was
it?
>> September.
>> September is what I thought. That's
exactly right. It was in the fall.
>> Mhm.
>> [ __ ]
>> The the the woman strikes me as somebody
where could you could you have done your
mother? Of course, but that's too
impactful. Versus
I think it was a teacher. It's a
teacher. Am I right? And now when I said
third grade teacher, you got kind of
tense about it. I don't know which year
it's for,
>> but um
>> was this a a favorite teacher or not so
favorite?
>> Favorite.
>> Favorite. Y
>> the guy that you're thinking of, think
of his first name.
>> Mhm.
>> Think of any letter in his first name.
>> Mhm.
>> Right. All of the alphabet. Think of
that one letter right now. You didn't do
the first letter, did you?
>> No.
>> You were like, I don't want to do that.
That's going to be a giveaway.
>> And then most people will avoid vowels
in names. They because they just think
every name has a vowel. So, I'm kind of
limiting myself. But I don't know if you
did that. I think you probably did. Did
you think of a vowel? Yeah.
>> Yeah. So, you you you you kind of knew
that and you went against me.
>> Are you thinking of letter A?
>> Yes.
>> [ __ ]
>> I feel like
>> think of his last name.
Are you thinking of it?
>> Mhm.
>> There's some sort of
There's some sort of judgment here.
>> The last name is Is it hyphenated?
That's why you thought of two different
people. Oh my goodness.
>> It's hyphenated.
>> It's hyphenated. Yeah. You're like,
"Yeah, he didn't take the mom's, the
dad's name." You know, I'm going to go
with this. I
I can't tell you anything. I might not
have spelled this right there. Ask
yourself this question. Tell your
audience right now. Before I walked in
this room, had we ever spoken? Had we
ever set up? Is this is this did have
you written this down on a piece of
paper somewhere? Is this in your phone?
Did you Is there any way in the world I
could have gone on Instagram, Facebook,
Twitter, and found this out? 1% or 0%.
>> 0%.
>> Who' you think of? What's this guy's
name?
>> Dave Gardner Chan.
>> Dave Gardner Chan.
>> [ __ ] you, dude. No.
You need to be locked up.
Oh my god.
And then the best part, the best part is
the alleyoop. It's right at the end,
which is come on over. I always like to
do this. You changed your mind. That is
the gold standard for this. The gold
standard is you think of something and
at the last moment you go, I'm going to
change my mind. Right? Because that
shows it's real. That's the moment. If
you change your mind, shake my hand. Go
back in time. How old were you? This
teacher, give me a guess. How old were
you roughly? Give me a guess. Mrs.
Wilkinson, right?
>> [ __ ] you.
>> Jesus Christ.
I feel like I feel like prey in water.
>> I feel like prey in water and you're a
shark. This is
>> I don't know if you knew this. I
couldn't do any of this before I arrived
here. It's just because I've been
drinking Newtonic. That's the only way.
>> Bingo. I knew there was an ad read.
That's the triple hitter. Forget
guessing the names, dude. It's the
[ __ ] ad read at the end. Bro, you're
amazing. This is
>> Appreciate you. Long time coming, my
friend. I'm super good luck. I can't
wait to see what the Donald does in
response to this.
>> Me, too. If he punches you in the face,
that'll make headlines.
>> Love that.
>> It's great. It's great press.
>> That would be heaven,
>> dude. You roll.
>> Appreciate you, man. Thanks for having
>> All right. Goodbye, everybody.
>> Bro, you're the man.
>> Thank you.
>> Thank you very much for tuning in. If
you enjoyed that episode, YouTube knows
who you are deeply. It thinks you're
going to like this one even more.
Come on, press