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[@joerogan] Joe Rogan Experience #2392 - John Kiriakou

· 9 min read
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@joerogan - "Joe Rogan Experience #2392 - John Kiriakou"

Link: https://youtu.be/TZqADzuu73g

Short Summary​

Here's a concise executive summary of the Joe Rogan Experience podcast transcript:

The podcast features John Kiriakou, a former CIA officer, discussing his experiences in the CIA, including his refusal to participate in the agency's torture program after 9/11. He details the unethical and illegal activities he witnessed, his subsequent legal troubles after exposing the program, and his eventual imprisonment. Kiriakou also touches on broader issues of government overreach, foreign influence, and the deep state.

Key Quotes​

Here are five quotes from the transcript that represent particularly valuable insights, interesting data points, surprising statements, or strong opinions:

  1. "Athens was a tough place at the time. Uh the American government spent more money on security in Athens than they spent anywhere else in the world, including Beirut." This is a surprising data point that highlights the specific threat environment in Athens at a particular time.

  2. "This is a torture program. They can use whatever euphemism they want, but this is a torture program and torture is a slippery slope. He said, "You know how these guys are. Somebody's going to be a cowboy. They're going to go overboard and they're going to kill a prisoner. And when that happens, there's going to be a congressional investigation. Then there's going to be a Justice Department investigation and somebody's going to go to prison. Do you want to go to prison?" This quote encapsulates a core moral dilemma and a prediction that proves accurate regarding the consequences of participating in the torture program.

  3. "I'm I'm almost ashamed to tell you that they asked 14 of us if they wanted if we wanted to be trained in the enhanced interrogation techniques. I was the only one who said no." This statement emphasizes the pressure to conform and the rarity of dissenting voices within the CIA.

  4. "The other thing is the CIA had entered into an agreement with these two contract psychologists uh James Mitchell and Bruce Jessen in October of 2001 and they said hey we've reverse engineered the military's SEIR program and we think this would be an effective but harsh uh interrogation technique. And so we were chomping at the bit at the agency to try this thing out without using the word torture. We paid those guys $18 million to say, "Oh, we think you should torture people. Here's here are the torture techniques. Just let us know when you want us to start." This highlights the motivation of revenge by the CIA following 9/11.

  5. "There is a deep state. You don't have to call it the deep state if you don't want to. You can call it the state. You can call it the federal bureaucracy. You can call it whatever you want. The fact is it exists and it's unelected and it's generally unaccountable to anybody. and they just wait for the president to leave if they don't want to do what he wants." This is a direct statement about the presence and function of a powerful, unelected bureaucracy that can undermine elected officials.

Detailed Summary​

Here's a detailed summary of the Joe Rogan podcast transcript, presented in bullet points:

Key Topics:

  • CIA Torture Program: Discussion of the enhanced interrogation techniques implemented by the CIA after 9/11, including waterboarding, sleep deprivation, and cold cell.
  • John Kiriakou's Opposition to Torture: Focus on Kiriakou's refusal to participate in the CIA's enhanced interrogation program due to moral, ethical, and legal concerns.
  • Consequences for Kiriakou: Explanation of how Kiriakou's dissent led to professional repercussions, including being passed over for promotion.
  • Kiriakou's Prosecution and Imprisonment: Account of the charges against Kiriakou for revealing classified information related to the torture program and his subsequent imprisonment.
  • Ineffectiveness of Torture: Emphasis on the argument that torture techniques were not effective in gaining actionable intelligence compared to traditional FBI interrogation methods.
  • Deep State and Bureaucracy: Exploration of the concept of a deep state within the US government and the challenges of holding unelected officials accountable.
  • Government Overreach and Legal System: Discussion of the potential for government overreach and the legal system being used for political purposes.
  • US Foreign Policy and International Relations: Commentary on US foreign policy decisions, particularly related to Iran, Israel, and Russia, and how it all intersects with foreign policy.

Arguments and Information:

  • Early CIA Career:
    • The guest, John Kiriakou, replaced Mike Baker in Athens, Greece, where the US government spent more on security than anywhere else, including Beirut.
    • This was due to dangerous Greek groups like Revolutionary Organization 17 November and the presence of various terrorist groups due to an agreement where they would not target Greeks.
  • Torture Program Origins:
    • After 9/11, Kiriakou was responsible for counterterrorism operations in Pakistan.
    • He was involved in the capture of Abu Zubeda and was later asked to be certified in enhanced interrogation techniques.
    • He described techniques such as the belly slap, waterboarding, and the cold cell.
  • Reasons for Refusal:
    • Kiriakou sought advice from a senior officer who described the program as torture and warned of potential legal consequences.
    • He rejected the training, citing moral, ethical, and legal objections.
    • He became known as the "human rights guy" within the CIA, which was not a compliment.
  • Interrogation Details:
    • Kiriakou recalls an instance where he sought information from a prisoner in cooperation with the Pakistani intelligence, where the prisoner's name was forcibly extracted with a strike to the face.
    • The guest describes the enhanced interrogation techniques that were going to be implemented including stripping people naked and chaining them to eye bolts. He further explains that people died from hypothermia and admits that the CIA did not originally have a protocol in place to save those who were dying.
  • FBI vs. CIA Interrogation Methods:
    • He contrasted CIA methods with the FBI's approach, highlighting how FBI agent Ali Sufan gained valuable intelligence from Abu Zubeda through building rapport, unlike the CIA's torture.
    • Abu Zubeda provided intel on an al-Qaeda wiring diagram, terrorist attacks in Dusseldorf, as well as Khaled Shikh Muhammad.
    • After primacy was turned over to the CIA and the torture was resumed, Zubeda went completely silent.
  • Justice Department Role and Psychological Manipulation
    • The Justice Department did not express concerns even if the torture led to the death of the prisoners.
    • There were experiments involving truth serums, relaxation drugs, and dosing people with LSD in safehouses.
  • Deep State and Political Reality:
    • Experienced CIA officers believe they can outwait any president.
    • If the president wants them to do something they don't want to do, they slow-roll it.
  • Kiriakou's Departure and Exposure:
    • After leaving the agency, Kiriakou was accused of torturing Abu Zubeda.
    • He decided to tell the truth in an interview, stating that the CIA was torturing prisoners, torture was official US policy, and the policy was approved by the president.
    • The CIA filed a crimes report against him, and the FBI investigated.
  • Legal Battles and Political Targeting:
    • Despite the FBI initially declining to prosecute, John Brennan (then Deputy National Security Advisor for Counterterrorism) pushed for espionage charges.
    • Kiriakou was charged with five felonies, and the espionage charges were dropped after he went bankrupt.
  • Prison Experience:
    • Kiriakou describes his experience in prison including that his attorneys had warned him that the Eastern District of Virginia was not the ideal place for an espionage trial, as its location is home to lots of CIA and FBI employees.
    • He describes a system where he knocks on the prison door and it is up to him to turn himself in.
    • He faced challenges in prison, including being targeted by inmates who were part of the Aryan Brotherhood gang.
    • The prisoners are also set up to fail and turn on each other.
  • Post-Prison Life:
    • Kiriakou details the release of the Senate torture report which proved that everything he said was true.
    • John McCain was instrumental in writing an amendment to the National Defense Authorization Act of 2016, but was not included in the conference committee, so that was nixed.
    • Kiriakou experienced difficulty finding employment due to his felony conviction.
    • He has worked as a writer, columnist, professor, and consultant.
    • He expressed frustration with the Democratic Party and has found common ground with populist Republicans.
  • CIA Internal Politics and Dysfunction:
    • The CIA has been infiltrated with people like John Brennan.
    • He highlights how hard it is to get a real job after prison.
  • Obama's Actions:
    • The Obama people confiscated his pension.
    • He had a Nixonian obsession with National Security leaks.
    • Under Barack Obama, eight people were charged with espionage for speaking to the media.
  • US Foreign Policy Critique:
    • Kiriakou criticizes US foreign policy decisions related to China, suggesting they are more patient.
    • He worries about Israeli attacks on Iran and disrespecting the deal in Gaza.
    • The Israeli attacks have incentivized Netanyahu to stay at war, but are also not supported by the Israelis.
  • Influence of Israel
    • The influence of Israel in American politics is significant.
    • AIPAC is well organized, but they do not have to register as a foreign agent.
  • General Concerns:
    • The system sucks.
    • The current direction in which the AI industry is going.
    • Using universal basic income when everyone gets on relying entirely on the government.

This summary provides a comprehensive overview of the key points and arguments presented in the provided transcript.