Link: https://youtu.be/hpLAqYQVb68

Duration: 160 min

Short Summary

John Fogerty, the swamp rock legend and principal songwriter behind Credence Clearwater Revival, joined Joe Rogan for a wide-ranging conversation covering his $144 million lawsuit over sounding "like himself," the revelation that CCR's savings were lost through Castle Bank—a Bahamian institution secretly used by the CIA to fund covert operations—and his difficult Catholic school upbringing that shaped his worldview. Fogerty discussed the infamous Mardi Gras album that destroyed CCR after band members demanded to co-write songs despite having no prior songwriting experience, his recovery from post-band bitterness through meeting his wife Julie, and his philosophy that artists should never be forced to abandon their authentic style.

Key Quotes

1. "I got sued for sounding like myself." (00:04:12)
2. "The bank was being used by the CIA to funnel money for covert military operations, including those at Andros Island, a staging area for anti-Castro activities." (00:16:08)
3. "To me, it's it's like tuning in a radio." (01:20:19)
4. "Almost no one my age wanted to be in the army and go to Vietnam." (01:13:13)
5. "I believe in God and I believe God is watching me all the time, you know, all of us. So that that part helps me to feel like there's a a reason, you know, to try and be a good person." (00:43:22)

Detailed Summary

Joe Rogan Experience #2214 - John Fogerty Detailed Summary

Music Industry Exploitation and Legal Battles

John Fogerty reveals the exploitative practices of Fantasy Records, which signed him at age 19 before he legally could sign a contract. Saul Zaentz owned Fantasy Records and used the wealth generated by Credence Clearwater Revival to produce films including One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest and to purchase Lord of the Rings movie rights, while Fogerty and his bandmates never received royalties from these ventures.

• Fantasy Records changed the band's name to "The Gollywogs" without their consent—a name with problematic racial origins that the bandmembers found offensive
• Fogerty was sued by Fantasy Records for $144 million over his song "The Old Man Down the Road" on the album Center Field, with the claim he was "sounding like himself" and ripping off CCR
• The lawsuit dragged on for three to four years, causing significant financial and emotional anguish before he prevailed at trial
• Fantasy Records retained ownership of CCR's master recordings, enabling Zaentz to leverage the band's success for Hollywood ventures
• Credence sold over 100 million records with albums priced at $4 each, yet the band received only a small percentage of hundreds of millions in total revenue

The Castle Bank Financial Scandal

Credence Clearwater Revival joined an offshore tax plan centered around Castle Bank in the Bahamas, which promised to reduce their income tax from 90% to 10-20%. The bass player's father—an entertainment lawyer representing the Oakland Raiders—verified the plan as legitimate, giving the band false confidence in the arrangement.

• Fogerty decided to exit the plan around 1975-1976 when it started "smelling suspicious," demanding to be removed by his accountant and attorney in Oakland
• In the 1970s, Castle Bank disappeared and all of Credence's money vanished with it
• The bank was later revealed to have been used by the CIA to funnel money for covert military operations, including anti-Castro activities at Andros Island
• This meant the CIA potentially used Credence's money to fund covert operations while the band lost their entire savings
• Fantasy Records was dismissed from the lawsuit by a local Bay Area judge despite being the party that got the band into the plan in the first place
• The band ultimately recovered their $8 million loss through the accountant's insurance company, with settlements reached for pennies on the dollar

CCR Formation and Early Success

John Fogerty formed Credence Clearwater Revival in 1967 after receiving his honorable discharge from the Army. He revived an old song ("Suzie Q") with psychedelic arrangements to bypass record companies and bring recordings directly to underground radio stations, where it received heavy airplay—played approximately 8 times daily at 8 minutes and 20 seconds per play.

• Fogerty wrote "Proud Mary" approximately one hour after opening his discharge papers, immediately recognizing it as superior to everything he had previously written
• The song drew on Mark Twain river boat imagery and Americana as core thematic elements
• Fogerty wrote all CCR songs through the first six albums, serving as the sole creative force behind the band's material
• CCR broke up before the Woodstock movie was released, missing the promotional boost that film provided to other artists who performed there
• Fogerty stopped playing after CCR and did not return until the 1986 tour, where he performed with hired studio musicians but initially did not play any CCR-era songs

The Mardi Gras Controversy and Band Implosion

Fogerty wrote all CCR songs through the first six albums before band members demanded to co-write and sing their own songs for album seven—two members had never written a song in their life before making this demand. Rolling Stone called the Mardi Gras album "the worst album ever made by a major group," marking a catastrophic creative failure that destroyed the band's reputation.

• Fogerty thought letting other members write songs would be "career suicide" but felt he had to acquiesce to keep the band together
• During the subsequent tour, songs written by other band members were dropped one by one because those members "didn't want to sing that anymore"
• His brother Tom left the band within a couple months after the co-writing agreement was implemented
• After the album's failure, band members claimed "he made me do it" rather than acknowledging it was their own idea to co-write
• Fans were upset with the premise of equal time for all band members singing songs, recognizing the artistic compromise
• The Grateful Dead performed before CCR at Woodstock, took LSD, and went on at 2:00-2:30 AM instead of their scheduled 8:00 PM time, playing for 90 minutes

Artist Rights and Industry Critique

Fogerty argues that virtually no artists in the 1960s owned their own masters, with the possible exception of Jimi Hendrix, who uniquely retained control over his masters and whose estate continues releasing his music decades later. Record labels systematically extracted ownership of creative work as a standard business practice.

• Prince was forced to change his name to a symbol because he no longer owned his own name after disputes with Warner Bros.
• Record labels attempt to own artists' new music, new lyrics, and likeness, preventing them from creating independently after leaving the label
• Fogerty believes artists should not be forced to invent new styles when their original style becomes popular or commercially successful
• Personal jealousies and individual career agendas plagued Fogerty's later bands, similar to dynamics he experienced in CCR
• Fogerty praises the Rolling Stones as a model for band longevity, noting they "rose above" internal conflicts and remain brothers on stage

"Fortunate Son" and the Vietnam Era

Fogerty was drafted and served on active duty in the Army reserves during the Vietnam era, giving him firsthand understanding of the military mindset that informed his most politically charged song. He wrote "Fortunate Son" in approximately 20 minutes on a yellow tablet, inspired by anger about wealthy, politically connected people avoiding the military draft while ordinary citizens were forced to serve.

• He originally intended to write a political song called "Favorite Son" inspired by presidential inaugurations starting in 1952
• Young people were against the Vietnam War because it seemed illogical and the purpose was never adequately explained by government leadership
• The key lyric "It ain't me" emerged as a repeating phrase that he realized he could build the entire song around
• He deliberately commissioned himself to write "Fortunate Son" as an "all-out screaming rocker" because the band lacked one
• Fogerty cited Link Ray's instrumental "Rumble" as an example of how an entire rock aesthetic could be encapsulated in a two-and-a-half-minute song
• He received an honorable discharge from military service, which led to another song right before his Credence career started

Songwriting Process and Creative Philosophy

Fogerty worked on music every weekday morning for 11 years straight, from 1974 until Center Field was released, maintaining rigorous creative discipline during his exile from the music industry. He views creative inspiration as like tuning into a radio—ideas are always present but require being in the right mental state to perceive them.

• Fogerty has been writing songs since age 8, crediting his mother with introducing him to songwriting as a legitimate function of music
• His mother played children's records featuring Stephen Foster's songs and explained that Foster was the real person behind the music
• He was influenced by Hoagy Carmichael and Irving Berlin before discovering the Beatles, who demonstrated that rock and roll artists were themselves writing songs
• When you're making something in your wheelhouse it resonates and works, but when you try to be different or change for someone else, it doesn't work because it isn't authentic to who you are
• For "The Old Man Down the Road," the riff came spontaneously one morning before he turned on his equipment
• Fogerty references Steven Pressfield's The War of Art as a book about the creative process that he gives to other artists
• The muse requires worthiness: being receptive, showing humility, and doing the work daily to receive inspiration

Personal Struggles and Recovery

Center Field came out 15 years after CCR broke up, reached number one, and was a happy, joyful hit—but Fogerty used a prison release metaphor, saying it was like being freed from prison into a Disney cartoon meadow, then Eye of the Zombie was the anger that followed when he saw the prison (San Quentin). After Center Field's success, all the repressed anger "came out at once" and for about two years he was miserable and bitter.

• Fogerty "imploded" during this period like the werewolf in "Werewolves of London" or the Hulk—turned inward rather than exploded outward
• He met Julie during the 1986 tour for Eye of the Zombie while in "perpetual binge mode," and she helped him find himself and the joy of life again
• He acknowledges he should have gone to therapy after Center Field's success but didn't because that wasn't part of his background or era's norms
• His wife's care saved his life during a period of severe alcohol abuse and bitterness that followed his professional triumph
• He struggled to build a stable band due to members' personal agendas and jealousies until greater stability emerged in 1997 after the release of Blue Moon Swamp

Early Life and Musical Origins

Fogerty was raised Catholic, participating in first communion, first confession, and confirmation—choosing the name Jerome at age 12 inspired by Bo Diddley's "Bring It to Jerome." He was expelled from Catholic school twice, once in first grade and again in ninth grade, due to traumatic experiences with harsh teachers who refused to let him use the bathroom.

• He reconciled his childhood trauma from Catholic school with religion in his 40s through personal reflection
• His family took camping trips to Putah Creek near Winters, California (later dammed to create Lake Berryessa), which inspired his song "Green River"
• His parents were musical but not professional, harmonizing songs like "By the Light of the Silvery Moon" in their old Green Ford
• Fogerty received his first snare drum around age four and at age ten heard Elvis Presley's "My Baby Left Me" on a jukebox
• He became transformed by Elvis's music within three minutes and decided to pursue music as his life's work
• He started learning chords in seventh grade with an old Stella acoustic guitar he acquired
• At Putah Creek, he met Cody, a direct descendant of Buffalo Bill Cody who owned the property

Rock Star Image vs. Authenticity

Fogerty describes rock star image as a "uniform" and "pose"—he wore leather jackets and chains for shows but lived as a normal dad, taking kids to school and maintaining conventional domestic life. Many musicians cultivate a public image that traps them and forces them to "be that person forever," preventing them from returning to authenticity.

• He rejected the "fake rock and roll vision" and "dark artist" image in favor of being authentic and healthy
• He looks like Ward Cleaver (Beaver's dad) or "Mr. Boy Scout" at musical events, prompting his partner Julie to suggest he wear something "more rock and roll"
• He references Marlon Brando on a motorcycle in The Wild One as the origin of the rockstar image uniform that became standard across the genre
• Fogerty describes himself as notoriously corny and unashamedly happy, calling Center Field "the corniest thing ever invented" while affirming he loves that about himself
• He argues rock and roll has many layers and personalities, not just dark brooding images, and that being happy and optimistic is equally valid
• He operates by the golden rule—"do unto others as you would have them do to you"—and believes in God watching over everyone

Johnny Thunder Discovery and Musical serendipity

Brian Simpson introduced the podcast host to Johnny Thunder's "I'm Alive" at the Mothership comedy club Green Room. Johnny Thunder's song "Loop" (1963) featuring the Bobettes reached #4 on US pop charts and #6 on US R&B charts, but "I'm Alive" was his only other notable recording in a career marked by the "slippery nature of success" in art.

• Johnny Thunder died in 2024, shortly after the podcast hosts discovered his music through research
• The song "I'm Alive" gained commercial exposure after being played on the podcast, appearing in commercials years later
• Many artists only "catch lightning" once, and Johnny Thunder's song wasn't even a big hit despite being excellent quality
• The speakers discuss how success in music often depends on timing, promotion, and factors beyond artistic merit alone

Current Life and Legacy

Fogerty's current band includes his sons Tyler and Shane, daughter Kelsey, and bass player Jesse Wilson, bringing family into his musical life. He is on the Legacy Tour, re-recording old CCR songs and performing across multiple locations while maintaining his belief in artistic authenticity.

• The Legacy Tour involves re-recording old Credence Clearwater Revival songs with updated production while preserving the original spirit
• Fogerty continues to perform and record, bringing his sons and daughter into the touring operation for multi-generational musical collaboration
• He remains active in defending artist rights and speaking about the exploitative practices of the music industry from his firsthand experience
• His career arc from CCR's explosive success through personal collapse to recovery serves as a case study in artistic resilience and industry navigation

Full Transcript

Show transcript

Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.
>> The Joe Rogan Experience.
>> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY
NIGHT. All day.
>> Put your stuff on the floor.
>> It doesn't matter. You can keep it on
the table.
>> It's fun.
There's water there, too. Uh, in this
metal cup. And then there's coffee.
>> Oh, thanks so much. Coffee here. He's
ready to
>> I have some notes that I'll probably
never look at. But
>> you got notes?
>> Me?
>> What What's on the notes?
>> Uh, just stuff like what I went through
with CCR and all that, but
tell me something. Did you Did you read
up on me or anything or
>> I'm a huge fan. I don't have to read up
on you. Okay. I read up on you a little
bit just to catch up about how you got
out of the the Well, you did do military
service, but you got out by smoking a
lot of weed and not eating. I read that.
Is that true?
>> No.
>> Is that true? They lied.
>> There was a story about you smoking a
lot of weed and uh getting emaciated so
you can get out of the army.
>> Well, it's not quite in that sequence,
but
those things did happen.
Yeah, I had
I had determined to lose a lot of
weight, right? So, I was kind of really
skinny about 1967
68. Uh I mean likeund I think it was 129
pounds.
>> Whoa.
>> Yeah. Um, and then I was going to go uh
to the I think it was the procedio and I
had to meet with the army doctor, right?
And my friends gave me a couple of
joints and I stuck them in. You know, I
used to smoke and it was cigarettes. I
stuck it in the cigarette and going
across the Bay Bridge, I smoked them.
That's so I had even thought about So,
yeah, man. He he he went on a starvation
diet, a protest diet, and then smoked a
lot of weed
that way. But yeah. Okay. But it's it's
essentially some truth.
>> Some truth to it.
>> Uh you had a legendary career, my
friend. Legendary.
>> Thank you. Still working on it.
>> It's incredible, man. You You are like
one of the main voices of rock and roll
in America. If you really think about
it, your songs, I mean, there you have
so many gigantic hits, you know, when uh
the UFC uh has a lot of walkout songs,
you know, when fighters come out and
walk out and a lot of guys walk out to
your music. I don't even know if you're
aware of it, but Fortunate Sun is a big
one.
>> Yeah.
>> Bad Moon Rising, that's another big one
people walk out to.
>> Great. Wow.
>> It's pretty awesome.
>> Wow. Yeah. I'm I'm not that aware of
that. UFC stuff, but it, you know,
everybody whatever floats your boat.
>> Well, people just love your music. You
So, you went through many generations.
Like, you got your first record
contract. How old were you?
>> Um,
I know I signed one when I was around
19. Of course, it would have been
uninforcable.
>> It's not legal at the time, right? You
had to be 21 the deal.
>> I I believe so.
>> Yeah. There's Well, you're also one of
the first rock and roll artists that
wrote songs uh that became very popular
about how you're getting screwed over by
the record business.
>> You know what I mean? Well, so Leonard
Skitter did it working for MCA. They did
that song, but you had Vans Can's Dance.
>> It was actually Zance Can't Dance,
>> but you had to change it, right?
>> Yeah. The name of the person was Zance.
Uh it's it sold about a half a million
copies as Zance, but the record company
Warner Brothers in their way of settling
somewhat
um had me change it to Vance.
>> Yeah.
>> Cuz the guy's name was Zance that it was
screwing up.
>> Um
that's right in the middle of that whole
thing was a mess. I got sued for
sounding like myself.
>> What?
>> Yeah.
>> How'd that happen?
>> I'll tell you. So, and I didn't find
this out. And there was eventually a
trial. So, it's not
Many people think that that's funny. He
got sued for sounding like you're so w
that's funny. Well, no. you're getting a
legal lawsuit that's probably going to
take away a lot of your
uh money and you're going to go through
three four years of anguish. Well,
anyway, um
ended up in a trial. He was suing me for
at the time was an enormous amount of
money, $144 million for his uh whatever
metal anguish or something. Um I
the the logistics, I guess you'd call
it. I had made a new song called The Old
Man Down the Road. It was on my album.
It was my comeback on Center Field and I
had finally gotten away from Fantasy
Records, which is where Credence was and
Solands who owned it. So, you know, when
you finally escape and get success over
somewhere else, the former people tend
to be jealous, I guess. And uh so he was
suing me. What had happened though, I
found out in the trial, the bass player
from Credence
uh was another one of those people, I
guess, that couldn't stand that I'd now
had success in a later life. um he went
down to fantasy and saw Mr. Saul's aunts
and said, "John is ripping off Credence.
You should sue him." The irony in in all
of that is that I had taught Stu every
single note that he ever played in
Credence. It was not his own cre. As we
talk, you'll you'll see. Um I was the
guy inventing the arrangements. And so
to take possession of Credence was
pretty ironic and pretty over the top.
Anyway, he talks Saul into suing me and
that Saul had unlimited funds and so it,
you know, went to a trial. I pre
prevailed at trial and
got that over with.
>> But they torture you during the process
because it takes years and it cost an
enormous amount of money to fight
yourself.
>> Yeah. all that stuff.
>> That is so crazy that they can sue you
for sounding like you.
>> Well, it's a blessing to the world, I
think, that I prevail. I mean, you know
what we're really talking about is when
you come into the consciousness of the
world, I guess, and you have a certain
style if you're lucky. And so, you start
creating whatever your art is. You're an
actor or you're a painter or in my case
a musician. and people start liking the
style. Well, how unfair would it be that
at some point somebody takes ownership
of your and style and now says you have
to go back and invent some other style,
be some other person. You know, it's
just that would be really difficult.
Imagine Dylan or Springsteen or all the
other people that have their own style
having to, you know, reinvent and change
to something else. Well, it's just
insane to even ask an artist to do that.
It's insane because look, so many
artists sound like art other artists
anyway, and no one has a problem with
that as long as they're not ripping off
the notes and the lyrics. There's a lot
of people that sound like people, but
the idea that you could get sued for
sounding like you with new music and new
lyrics is that's one of the most insane
things I've ever heard of. I can't
believe that didn't get thrown out
immediately.
>> Immediately, right? Um, well, that shows
the the I guess the ego and the
possessiveness that people want to have.
Um,
you know, I had written a new song and
he didn't want me to. He wanted to own
the new stuff. He wanted to own me
basically. That was the idea. Well, you
can never do anything unless you do it
for me, you know. Um, so I was
but not just for myself, for everyone,
for all artists. It was kind of a major
ruling and thank God it went that way.
>> Well, thank God it also was public like
with that song and the lawsuit around
the song have you having to change the
name of the song cuz back then at least
at the time like this was probably what
the 80s.
>> Yep.
>> Most people had no idea how evil the
music business can be unless they were
told they had no idea what they they
bought the albums. They loved the
musicians and they just liked the music.
They didn't know what was going on
behind the scenes. They didn't know how
these people own your catalog. They own
the music. They own the publishing. They
try to just get as much money out of you
as humanly possible. Own your name, own
your likeness. You know, most uh fans
had no idea.
>> And that's probably the way it really
should be. When I was young, I just
cared about Elvis and his guitar player.
You know, I didn't want to know all I
didn't even know there was stuff behind
it to know.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Oh my god.
>> Right. I picked a good one there, didn't
I? Colonel was evil. That's just too
bad.
>> Another similar situation. Like there's
all a lot of these great artists get
like Prince. He got wrapped up to the
point where he had to change his name to
a symbol because he didn't own his name
anymore. Prince.
>> Yeah. I remember going, "Well, if he
doesn't want to use it, you I'll take
it." Yeah.
>> Yeah. It's just the the business itself.
I mean, you have these creative artists
that make this music that everybody
loves and then you have these hyenas
that work behind the scenes that are the
ones that are collecting the majority of
the money from it and they're not making
any music. And to the average fan like
myself, like that's abortant. That's
disgusting. Like you you see that it
just it just drives you nuts. Well, also
um you know the the create creative
people are special and I mean you know
look around there's way more of other
types of people than there are creative
people and to douse that you know to or
own that which is what was going to
happen is just a an ownorous thing. Um
I'm
I used to be a lot more angry about all
this stuff. I'm a lot older. I can't say
wiser. It's more like um I came out on
the good side of it. I try not to worry
about it too much. But
>> it's great that you came out on the good
side of it, but it's also great for
people to know and it's really great for
young artists to be aware as they're
coming up, especially as they're
beginning their journey that this could
happen to them.
>> Yeah. And there's all kinds of, you
know, u bad people around just waiting
for you to slip up and sign something
that will give your rights away, that
sort of thing. Um,
I get such a joy out of music, you know?
I mean, I just I it started that way
when I was a little kid. I mean, didn't
even know what I was doing. I was or
what that was. I was hearing this sound
and you know and I liked it and I just
kind of went with it. I didn't try to
analyze it too much. And of course later
with all the things you know the
different roads you you go through
trying to get to someplace. Um
happily I still get that same joy. I
mean, I I just I'm just so glad. You
know, I a lot of this, of course, is
from the care of my wife, Julie. Uh if I
hadn't met her, I probably would be
dead. Simple as that.
>> Really?
>> Yeah.
>> Wow.
Why do you think you'd be dead?
>> Um I didn't see any way out, you know.
Um
I was really abusing myself, alcohol
mostly. I really felt
bad inside. I mean, it it's when you get
like that, uh, Joe, uh, you're not
really operating on the same plane in
the world that all the other people that
you see are, you know, you walk into a
market or something and look around and
probably most of the people are kind of
normal, you know, whatever we call that.
But when you're when you're really
hurting inside for whatever reason, I
mean, in my case, something really
unjust had been done to me. Um, but you
know, however you get there and then you
start abusing yourself with uh drugs,
alcohol, whatever. Um, you just kind of
it's becomes a habit. You just stay
there, right? And so you're not really
enjoying the sunshine and the love
that's around you and all the rest of
it. You become kind of a um pathetic
person. Sad certainly. So that you know
that was the deal that when Julie met me
I was that guy. Um there was sort of a
certainly an anger I mean but a a
bitterness too. almost like a
self-fulfilling
um
prophecy where you look for something to
go wrong and then it goes wrong and you
go, "See, I told you." You know, I mean,
it's a terrible mental place to be and I
was there.
>> Do you think this was a loop that you
got in because of the lawsuits?
>> Oh, yeah.
>> It did that it really just got you that
hard. Well, there was there was more
than one lawsuit, but the betrayal by uh
the people in my band, you know, uh I
just told you about a very evil man,
right?
>> Yeah.
>> And I'm the only guy from Credence who's
ever actually mentioned that he's an
evil person to the extent that
quite publicly my brother Tom right
during the same time was saying that
Saul was his best friend.
>> Oh Jesus. It was just really hard to uh
deal with. The other two guys in the
bands were in the band were kind of just
more cowardly about it. They just never
spoke up. Just kind of give me the
money. And you know,
>> how the [ __ ] was your brother saying
that guy was your best friend while he
was suing you?
>> Um he wanted he was signed ressigned
after the break of breakup of Credence.
he kind of shopped around and didn't
have uh much success finding a label and
so he went right about the time that
this trial was going to happen.
Uh he resigned with Fantasy. I'm talking
about the first trial.
>> Mhm.
>> Which was the first trial?
>> The first trial was about uh basically
the band had lost its life savings. all
of us in credence. Um, the record
company
had gotten us into this offshore tax
plan. And I'm saying this with a smile
because nowadays it just sounds so, you
know, some guy comes walking up to you
and got a trench coat on on a corner in
New York City. Hey buddy, you want, you
know, probably going to avoid that guy.
But the record company was in this tax
thing and for all we knew we were going
to be paying 90% income tax, right? I
mean, the tax
laws are pretty pretty stringent and
pretty high. Um, and so they offered us
or basically
kind of ushered us into this plan, a t
offshore tax plan, and it would allow us
to pay a lot less taxes, probably
somewhere between 10 and 20%, something
like that. Uh, so it was a huge
financial savings for us.
I can tell you that the name of this
particular thing was a bank in the
Bahamas called Castle Bank.
And we had it checked out. I mean, the
the people on our side in the van had it
checked out by our people. Our own
accountant um
uh the bass players father was a an
entertainment lawyer and had a big firm.
They among other people represented the
Oakland Raiders. So we thought they were
pretty solid and they checked it all out
and said that it was okay. It was legit.
So we did it. But time went on and it uh
seemed to be not legit to the point that
somewhere in the 70s
the bank disappeared and all our money
in it disappeared. So we sued
Oh Jesus.
>> Yep.
>> So here it is. The bank was being used
by the CIA to funnel money for covert
military operations,
>> including those at Andros Island, a
staging area for anti-Castro activities.
So you they were stealing your money.
>> How?
>> I just found that. I don't know. I just
typed it in and went to the Wikipedia
and I was like, whoa, that's
interesting.
>> So insane.
>> See, I didn't know any of that.
>> You didn't know until now? Oh, I knew
that now or I suspect.
>> Yeah.
>> Did you know that up until now or did
you just find it out just now?
>> Um, you could tell me a lot of things
right now and I'd say, "Oh, yeah. I just
assumed all that stuff was kind of
happening, but I didn't know it at the
time in the early '7s when we or late60s
when we got into this thing. It was
actually
>> Do you know how anti-American that is?
the CIA stole from Credence Clearwater
Revival.
>> How [ __ ] crazy that is. That is so
wild.
>> No, I didn't know that part. The um the
funny thing the the funny thing is um I
had decided to get out of that plan,
right? and I'd gone down to see my own
people, my accountant, my attorney uh in
Oakland and told him, I just want out of
this thing. I don't like the idea that
you got to call, you know, whenever I
want some money, like an allowance, you
got to call up some bank account
somewhere over there and it takes, you
know, some time, some few days before I
actually receive my money. and it was
starting to just smell. It was starting
to and this now we're talking
>> 197576.
Um
and so I actually had the meeting and I
said I want to be out of this plan. I
don't want to. Oh, I said one of the
things I said to the meeting of
professionals, look, take a shoe box,
put all the money I've ever earned into
the shoe box, and now hand me the shoe
boxes so I can see how much money have I
earned because I didn't know. It was
just going straight into this fund,
right, into this Castle Bank. But they
couldn't tell me. So, I leave. I get
down to the uh parking lot in the
basement of this tall building in
Oakland and I'm with my uh the guy that
runs my office and I say [ __ ] we're
going to have to have another meeting
because even though I told him I want to
get out of the plan, I didn't stand up
like on the table and get I'm ordering
you and you and you get me out of the
plan. I realized they could weasle
some more time until I actually pointed.
So the next week I showed up and did
that. I'm ordering you get me out. Okay.
Out of the plan, right? Um
pretty quickly after that
uh a week or two,
we hear that the bank has closed.
There's a telegram that apparently was
sent on Valentine's Day
and the bank president has died.
He died in a sauna.
>> Whoa.
>> I've seen that movie. You know where
Abbott and Costello, they're in the the
mob comes in and they're in those uh
heat things that are up here and the guy
sticks a broom in the in the door so you
can't get out. You know,
>> I mean, except that this was serious and
>> there will be no more withdrawals
>> until
until this thing is understood,
>> right? You don't a bank president dies,
you don't close the Bank of America,
right? You still can go get your money.
>> And so, pretty quick after that, it all
just disappeared in a puff of smoke. So,
>> they just stole the money.
>> Gone. Yep.
>> And it was the [ __ ] CIA. That is
crazy.
That is so crazy. How much money was
involved with all the different people
that lost their money? Like how much
money was this bank holding? Do you
know?
>> Oh, well, there were other names that I
never saw in those days. Uh, a lot of
sort of mobby kind of sounding names. Uh
>> um I will tell you after the thing
closed and I we got the telegram that
the p I started I literally started
checking under my cars
looking for wires and what you know
something funny. I did that for about
three months.
>> Whoa.
>> I finally just Well, I was scared.
>> Yeah. I would be
>> because I was the guy who said I want to
get out of this thing and suddenly it
goes kaboom and the president dies.
>> Right.
>> Right. And I just figured that I was
some kind of whistleblower to them or
something and you know I'm in their way.
Uh
>> Wow.
>> I guarantee you're the reason why it
happened.
>> I don't think No, I don't believe that's
true.
>> Well, no. I mean, you you probably
caused the whole thing to close down. I
mean, it's not a coincidence that it
closed down right after you asked for
your money back.
>> Yeah. I I don't know.
>> You're a big public name and a big
voice. You get out. you take your money.
After that point in time, I really never
wanted to
>> talk too loudly about stuff anymore. Oh
my goodness. Um, so there eventually was
our lawsuit. Um,
well, actually it was my lawsuit. I got
with a lawyer, a tall building I call
it, and proceeded to start
proceedings against this fantasy,
our own attorneys and experts, uh, the
people that designed this plan, all the
rest. Right. But I was the only one in
the band that did that. The the rest of
the guys kind of just
went along and weren't m making any
waves. But I, you know, I was pretty
adamant. Uh I'm telling you this because
at some point later
more than a year had passed maybe a
maybe a year and a half uh my PL my
lawsuit had been rolling along a while
and then the other guys asked to join my
lawsuit because the statute of
limitations had run out on them being
able to sue anyone because they they
literally tried to stay in the plan. I
was
I was I was willing to take the penalty,
whatever it was, for being the dumbass
that let himself get into some financial
thing like this, right? I felt like I
used to say I felt like Joe Lewis. I
thought I was going to need an act of
Congress to forgive the debt. Uh these
experts in the meeting that I talked
about who were trying to dissuade me
from making a noise and trying to get
out of the plan told me eventually John
if you receive all the money at once you
will pay more than 110%
in taxes
>> of what you have earned. In other words,
you going to go in the hole.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. For receiving it all at once,
right?
>> That sounds insane. That's why I felt
like Joe Lewis.
>> That's the most insane thing I've ever
heard.
>> Well, they were trying to in trying to
intimidate me for sure.
>> Yeah.
>> Um,
>> how much money were we talking about?
How much money did they steal from you?
>> When it finally was over, the headline
in the San Francisco Chronicle, I mean,
you're going to laugh at this.
>> Rock band
victorious wins 8.1 million.
That was our entire take for everybody
in the band. Each guy had a little bit
different amount, but you know those
numbers. I mean,
I don't know. Dion once made a joke at
the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame about
Bruce and
Dion says, "Well, I sold 40 million."
Meaning, you know, you you sue me. Well,
Bruce has that on him.
It was It was pretty funny. Yeah. I
mean, 8 million was that was it. That
was our take from all the sales of
Credence time.
>> So, was that the amount of money that
was in the bank that they stole from
you?
>> That was what we got returned to us.
>> So, you did get the money back.
>> Mhm.
>> Oh, okay. I figured they would just
vanish.
>> Um,
the money didn't come back from Saul's
ants or capital or Castle Bank or any of
those people. What had happened was
Fantasy was let out of the lawsuit by
the local judge in the Bay Area. I don't
know why because they're the ones that
got us into the plan, but anyway, they
were let out of the whole thing. So, who
was left was this guy named Bert Caner
in Chicago who designed the plan and our
own our own accountant and lawyers. And
so what most of them did was settle for
pennies on the dollar. You know, we said
that you owe us u a million dollars or
whatever. And they settled for like
$10,000
>> really,
>> right? Rather than go to trial. But our
own accountants
legal team said, "Ah, we got these guys.
They can never win this." So, I mean,
ironically,
they wanted to go to trial and put the
poor accountant, you know, who was an
old guy, uh, throw a whole trial and
Credence got we we retained the money we
had lost in that plan, the 8 million I
just mentioned, uh, from the
law firm, uh, the insurance firm. It was
his insurance company's lawyers that
were representing him and they had to
pay.
>> Nobody else had to pay.
>> Interesting.
>> And the CIA or whoever you're talking
about got away with it.
>> Of course they did.
>> Yeah.
>> They know how to do that. It's kind of
crazy, too, that it's only $8 million
when you think about how much money you
probably made the record companies.
>> Yep. Well, there was a hundred million
records plus. So,
>> Right. Do the math. How much was an
album back then?
>> Four bucks.
>> Yeah. So 400 million plus operating
expenses, costs, all that stuff. See,
you know, you guys got a small
percentage.
That's how it works though. That's why
the business is so dirty. That's what's
so, you know, the idea is that they help
you and they bring you up. But the
reality is they sell art and if they
don't have artists, they have nothing.
The artists are what fund their very
existence and they make the majority of
the money. It's It's pretty dark when
you really think about it.
>> Yeah. And Joe, I gotta tell you, um I
love making music and I don't do it for
the money.
>> I mean, I know that sounds a little
naive, but just the happiness in my
heart from doing this is
from the music, you know, from the joy.
I believe you because
>> the only thing is when you I mean I'll
say I'm not like well maybe I'm an idiot
but probably not about this. When you
find out that there was money but
somebody else got it then that kind of
gets your attention
>> right
>> you know but um the for me at least it
was it wasn't even about being famous
literally if you could believe that. It
was the joy of of understanding, you
know, what the the music from other
people that you loved. And as you grew
up from a, you know, that little first
inspiration, you began to kind of
understand what it was you liked about
what they did. And at some point then
started to try and do it yourself. But
that was a that was a long long time
after the initial joy of just enjoying
what they did.
>> Yeah. It's it's kind of sad that money
always does kind of distort things. But
if you were only interested in money and
only interested in fame or if that was
your primary concern, there's no way the
music would be that good. It's like that
that has to come from a real place. It's
a real place of creativity and
enjoyment. 100%. Yeah,
>> 100%.
You know,
>> well, for me it did. I just it it and
also the prospect of creating something
new tomorrow, you know, and and the
what's the word? You you get certain
feelings. Well, we all do, but um I've
learned to
how can I say it? Sort of it's like
being in a big swimming pool or
something, you know? That's all. It just
surrounds you. Let letting yourself
enjoy that feeling and then try to
figure out a way to put that into the
music, you know, express it in.
>> Yeah. Well, you did it, man. It's just
it's it's a long story with all these
different artists that have had to deal
with all these horrific managers. And I
was reading this article about um Jimmyi
Hendrick's manager. Uh so one of his
bodyguards uh wrote a book where he's
blaming Hendrick's manager for his death
and he was essentially saying that Hrix
was murdered and Hrix was about to leave
his manager and that's why he killed
him. And I don't know if you know the
story about Hrix, but his girlfriend
fell from a roof or jumped off a roof
shortly after Hendrickx died. And
apparently they were trying to get rid
of her as well because they knew that
she knew the whole deal behind it. Was
this the one with kind of a funny
foreign name?
>> Yes. Yes.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. They
>> I read a couple of Jimmy biographies,
but you know Yeah. Um
>> so many of these guys had mobbed up
managers.
>> Yeah. I do know that there was some
manager of his that I mean Jimmy owned
his masters. That was remarkable. That's
why that's why his family has the
masters, his estate, you know. They're
the ones that decide because every so
often a new Jimmy album would come out,
that sort of thing.
>> Um, I didn't know any of this way back
then. I just wondered, you know, who was
driving the bus. So, I mean, that part
was was pretty good. Uh, he had to talk
to somebody at Repre Records, and some
of those people were Repre uh Warner
Brothers. In other words, about the time
I was at Warner Brothers, it must have
been a couple of them, you know, that
decided that way back in the 60s. Um, I
guess I was a little envious because I
sure didn't own my masters, that's for
sure.
>> How many people owned their own masters
back then?
>> Um, nobody.
>> That's crazy. How do you think he got
that deal?
>> That I don't know. I don't know how it
how it came about that he was able to
have that much influence. I mean, that's
the part
I I did I did get the inference from the
at least one of the books I read about
Jimmy that um he they didn't try too
hard to save him.
>> Jimmy was I guess was just really effed
up for a couple of weeks there and
no one tried. You know, they were almost
I mean, I almost got the sense that
somebody took a bottle of wine and just
poured it in him, you know.
>> Yeah, that's what I had heard.
>> Yeah,
>> that's that was the what the bodyguard
was inferring that they poured pills and
alcohol down his mouth.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Terrible. Well, I I hope to never be in
such a state that I can't protest
something like that.
>> Right. Well, yeah. Yeah.
It's dark because uh apparently he was
ready to leave. if he wanted to leave
his manager
>> and obviously Jimmy was a gigantic star
>> and that guy saw all the money.
>> Well, he still is.
>> Still is to this day.
>> Every single guitar survey that ever
comes out, you know, it change all the
other numbers after
>> two,
>> right?
>> Keep changing with fashion and all that,
but it's always number one is Jimmyi
Hendris.
>> Always. Yeah. Kind of extraordinary when
you think about it. The guy died at 27
years old,
>> you know, and was already just from
another planet. Like you listen to his
like you listen to Voodoo Child Slightly
Turn.
>> You listen to that song, you're like,
>> is this guy from Earth? Like this was so
different than any other guitar playing
that had ever taken place before him. He
was a complete revolutionary. Like just
a completely new creative artist,
>> you know, and one of my favorite
musicians absolutely of all time. That's
why I named the podcast the Joe Rogan
Experience.
>> I wondered about that. Well, there it
is.
>> That's it. Stole it from Jimmy. You
>> Yep.
I should have named it the John Fogerty
Experience
>> instead of Credence.
>> Yeah. Well, I did create that name. Um,
>> what was the crazy name that the record
company called your one of your first
bands? They
>> Well, it was the same people.
>> Same people.
>> Yeah. Same. I mean the same individual
musicians. Um in high school or junior
high actually I started a band and
called it the Blue Velvets. Not all that
cre you know earth shaking but kind of a
cool vibe. Um
and we were really the Blue Velvets by
you know I mean this this was really a
trio but my brother was older. He was in
another orbit. Uh,
so we kind of went through high school
seeing each other every once in a while.
It wasn't like we were all trumping
around playing gig after gig. It was
more like, you know, every few months
there might be a sock hop or something
like that. Um,
and then
after high school and Tom Tom would come
and sing. He was my older brother. He
would come and sing once in a while with
us. We made a couple of recordings
during that time with real record
companies, but it was always kind of
just haphazard.
Um, and finally around the age of 19, I
went over and knocked on Fantasy Records
door. They had done this special about
Bench Galdi and they were in the Bay
Area. So, I, you know, went over there
and introduced myself. Anyway, so, you
know, one thing led to another. Finally,
we're recording
Uh, and at that time I think we made a
record with only three of us. Me and Tom
and Doug the drummer and I I overdubbed
a bass part and this is early or this
was in 1964.
Uh, when they finally pressed the
single, one side was called Little Girl.
It's kind of a four chord doo watt song.
The other side was sort of a English uh
or a British invasion
answer kind of thing. Mod music. It was
called Don't Tell Me No Lies. Anyway, we
excitedly go over to San Francisco to
their warehouse and open up the package
and it says the gollywobs. And we look
at each other and go, "What the hell?"
No, no, no. I think we had chosen our
name to be the Visions. It was just
something at the last minute because
we weren't really the Blue Bevels
anymore, but that was it. We thought it
was going to say Visions.
Um, but the record company had decided
they wanted to get in on the British
invasion mod, whatever, and named us the
Gollywogs.
Sounds like Polywog.
>> Yeah. He said, 'Well, a gollywag, you
see, is this doll that when the British
soldiers were in India, there would have
this little doll called a gollywag.
And so that's all we knew about it. Um,
as time went on, I mean, years and years
later, a long after I had been we
renamed the band or I'd renamed the band
Credence, found out that [ __ ] was a
this was a very racial thing. This was
the British soldiers calling the people
>> Whoa.
>> wags or gollywags. Yeah.
>> That's a gollywag.
>> Yeah. [ __ ] right?
>> Wow.
>> Same sort of.
>> Yep.
>> And they didn't know this either.
Obviously, there was no Wikipedia back
then.
>> I don't know. No, I don't know. I didn't
know that.
>> That's crazy that they could just change
your the name of your band without you
having any knowledge of it at all. You
open up the record and it's right there.
>> Yep. And they kind of insisted, you
know, it's that same thing that, well,
we're going to own the publishing to
your song. No, no, I should own it.
Well, then we're not going to make any
records.
Oh, okay.
>> You're 19.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Yeah. That's how they get you. You
don't know any.
>> Well, and you kind of want to make a
record.
>> Yeah. You want to make a record. It's
right there. You You taste it. Oh my
god, I'm going to be signed to a record
label. I'm going to be a rock star.
And then they come to you with a shady
contract. And that's their modus
operendi. So what they do with everybody
>> and for
I know they call it business. Um
>> funny term.
>> Yeah. Um most of those people
I mean it's like lottery to them. It's
like gambling. Um they don't have a clue
what creativity is. And at that age, the
young art I mean, I guess I'm looking at
you and saying, "If I only No, what's
that like? If I didn't know now what I
didn't know then. Um,
you're a young artist. You don't even
know what you got.
>> Right.
>> Right. You know, you have feelings about
music and but you don't,
you know, you're less than a rookie,
right?
>> You know, you maybe you were good in
junior high, but that doesn't mean
you're Willie Maize,
>> right? You know, so that's sort of how
that works. And they sign you up before
any of that self-realization happens.
And then you're messed.
>> Yeah. Again, that's what happened to
Prince. That's what happened to Skinner.
That's what happened to most bands. I
mean, they're very clever in how they do
it.
>> They sign a bunch of people that are
emerging and some of them are going to
hit.
>> Yep. and they bankroll it and then they
make the majority of the money when
those people hit.
>> Well, in our case, Credence was the only
thing that ever happened. Fantasy became
a very wealthy
record company.
Uh Saul origin eventually went into
making movies. So, he that money that I
had made for him at the record company,
you know, turned into one flew over the
cuckoo's nest. Oh wow.
>> Some other
uh Saul even had and in those times had
bought the movie rights for Lord of the
Rings. So
you know his he his ticket
got punched way up high
>> and we never got a dime a course of any
of that.
>> It's crazy how bad people can get ahead
like that.
>> Well that see that's Yeah.
>> That's what's disturbing. It's a
different
That's why I had a little hesitation
when you were talking about that you
thought the music came from a or
creativity came from a joyful good
place. But boy, you can sure look in
different parts of entertainment and or
business in general and see some really
bad people have made a lot of money.
>> Well, it takes the good people to create
things though. the creative people make
the things and there's always just going
to be people taking advantage of people
being naive about business.
>> I choose to believe
that at least it works for me. I choose
to believe that you've got to have a
good heart. You've got to
try to use the golden rule basically.
You know, don't do don't do something
bad to him that you wouldn't want to
have done to you. So the do unto others
as you would have them do to you. Yes.
Um
I I believe in God and I believe God is
watching me all the time, you know, all
of us. So that that part helps me to
feel like there's a a reason, you know,
to try and be a good person.
Um the reason being
you're in God's grace if you do those
things if you try to live a good life
honest and I guess we call it
transparent nowadays.
>> Yeah.
>> Um you know don't get me wrong I'm not
running around the world with a thumping
a Bible or something. I just think it's
common sense about
how ultimately you want to exist in the
universe, right?
>> Yeah.
>> Um
so, you know, that that's how I operate.
And so when I certainly now at my age,
when I see other people really getting
away with stuff, I just it it isn't like
I gee that's not fair. I should get the
I don't see it that way now. I just look
at that poor sap who's being so evil and
go, you know, he's going to get his
comeuppance someday.
>> Well, it's a horrible existence because
nobody loves you when you're like that.
If you're if you're doing that and
[ __ ] people over, all your
relationships are adversarial. It's a
bad way to exist. You're on a very bad
frequency the way you you exist with the
people in your circle.
>> I think that's true. I believe that
>> there's a lot of people that choose that
life just for financial benefit. They
choose to just [ __ ] people over and be
in that bad frequency all the time. But
that's not a good life. And I agree with
you. I think uh if you live your life
like God exists, you'll you'll have a
much better life. And the golden rule is
just it's provable. Like if you're a
nice person and you treat people well
and it spreads a lot of good energy
around you and positive
momentum with all these other people, it
it's the butterfly effect. It carries on
to other people that they encounter,
too. They're inspired by how kind and
friendly and generous you are. And it
it's good for everybody. It's good for
you. It's good for the people that
you're generous and friendly to. It's
good for the other people that they
encounter because they're inspired by
it. This is good for everyone. That's
how people should exist.
>> Yeah. I I literally I believe everything
you have just said and literally have
sometimes asked God for a you know I I
never sat around asked for money or a
hit record or I I always thought that's
kind of poor. That's bad you know. Yeah.
I mean that's selfish or greedy or
something. But I would ask for clarity
or, you know, I would ask God to help me
figure something out. And amazingly,
there would be through
a relation,
you know, somebody I was dealing with,
there would be something. It was like
karma, good karma coming back. And I
could
>> see the see the, you know, to me it was
a result of my prayer or my openness of
wanting to help get a situation
resolved. Um,
so for me, I've to me there's evidence
that it all works that way.
>> Did you always have a belief in God?
>> Yeah, I think there was times um,
yeah, be because I was just brought up
that way.
Um,
again, I don't believe my I I was just
was just taught in a kind of nice and
simple way about God. It it wasn't beat
over my head or anything. I was raised
Catholic, so in some sense, you can't
avoid having it beat over your head, I
suppose. And and some of that I
resisted. Um, but I went through the
normal things. I did my first communion,
my first confession. I did uh what do
you call that when you're 12 years old
that confirmation.
>> Um I chose the name for for St. Jerome
basically because there's a song by do
Bo Diddley called Bring It to Jerome and
uh Jerome was his I think Jerome Green
was his Morocco player and I really like
the vibe of that. So I'm going to be
Jerome. That's my confirmation name. Um,
yeah, it was it was there in those ways.
There was times I was boy, you've opened
a can of worms here
because I was so invested in being a
Catholic, even though my parents tried
to have me go to parochial school,
Catholic school. Um,
I was in the first grade and then I want
to say they kicked me out and then I
tried she my mom had me start again in
ninth grade at St. Mary's High School
and they kicked me out again. Um,
but it wasn't my fault. Anyway, the the
one that happened is funny. I mean, it's
just the one that happened in the first
grade. Uh, I had to take a bus to get
there. I lived in El Certo and the it
was the school of the Meline in Berkeley
and I'm in the first grade. I'm six
years old. So you had to go to the bus
stop, get on a bus, get a transfer.
So that then when the bus came to a
certain stop over in Albany, you then
got on a train,
you transferred, in other words, got on
the train and that went another mile or
so into Berkeley and at a certain stop
right behind the the school, the school
of the Meline Catholic school, you get
off the train and go on down into
school. Now, what happened?
My mom was a my parents had split up.
So, it was only my mom in the house and
she's leaving early because she's got a
job as a teacher and she's so she's out
of the house before me. And so, it's up
to me to get myself together and get to
the bus stop on time. Many, many times I
was late. I missed it. So, I had to get
the next bus. So, I'm late. So I'm
rushing to school,
but I get there after they've already
they would march every morning to John
Philips Souza and
you know all that and go on into school
and I I get there now I'm late. The
schoolyard is empty. I literally have to
climb over the fence because they've
locked the fence at boom 8:00 or
whatever it was. and I have to scale the
fence, run the class without going to
the bathroom. This was my first grade
experience. Sat down in my chair.
Within an hour, I really got to pee. And
Sister Damian would not answer me. I got
I got to I got to And so she would one
day I peed in my seat.
It happened again. It became a habit.
Sister Damian John Fogerty has a puddle
under his chair.
>> Oh, no.
>> Right.
>> That was so traumatizing to me.
>> Yeah. But ask yourself, how is a
six-year-old,
getting on a bus all by himself,
traveling three or four miles, then
getting out of the bus, going over to
where the train station thing is,
getting on a train, going over there,
and I mean, I certainly never let my
six-year-olds do anything like that.
>> I know it is kind of crazy how kids were
just able to just leave the house and do
anything back then. I think about that.
When I was a little kid, I used to just
leave my house.
>> Yep.
>> Seven years old, just leave the house.
>> You were home for dinner time.
>> Yeah.
>> It's kind of crazy. I mean, it's kind of
amazing. We all lived
>> Yeah.
>> if you stop and think about it. But to
have to take a bus and then a train and
go to school when you're six years old,
that's nuts.
So, uh, I went to Catholic school, too,
for first grade only. And uh that
screwed me off of religion for a long
time cuz I thought of God back when I
was a little kid before I went to
Catholic school as you know God is all
knowing and God is love and God created
the universe and God is
>> God's looking out for you. He's just got
some rules you have to follow. Made
sense to me. And then when I went to
Catholic school there was a lady I don't
remember anybody's name from back then
but I remember her Sister Mary
Josephine. She was so mean. She was just
a mean lady. She did the whole thing.
The whacking people with rulers, tell
you you're going to have to stay
overnight and you're going to have to
sleep on a nail in the closet. Like
>> just evil. Like wanted you to cry. When
I would cry, she'd call me a crybaby.
And I remember thinking after that,
like, I don't want to have nothing to do
with religion ever again. Right when I
left first grade.
>> Yep.
>> I hated it. And I was like, whatever God
is, this is not God. Like these people
have nothing to do with God. this lady,
there's no way this lady is the
messenger of God. This lady's mean.
>> That took a whole lifetime
to figure out, to realize, well, this is
just a man-made thing.
>> You know, God's there
>> and some man-made thing over here, you
know, they became Mormons and some
man-made thing over there, they became
Muslims, you know, and it's just all
man-made. It isn't actually God.
>> Right.
>> Right. And so you and man is fallible.
Of course, he's not infinite and he's
not infallible.
>> And so all these things were that but
that took a lifetime for me. I I'm sure
I was in my 40s still working on that
trying
>> Yeah.
>> that God's okay, John. You don't have to
resist when somebody wants to make a
prayer or so. You know, it's
>> it it isn't God's fault that you peed at
your desk when you were in the first
grade.
etc.
>> It's the mean none.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. I uh I have a similar perspective.
I I think uh I think all religious
scriptures, they're trying to document a
a real thing. Espe especially
Christianity, which is the one I've paid
the most attention to. I think they're
trying to document a real thing, but the
hand of man is clearly all over it.
That's the problem. The problem with
anything that's written down and we know
that just in like the religious cannon,
the books that were included in the
Bible, human beings had a decision on
what goes in and what doesn't go in. You
know, there was rabbis that kept the
book of Enoch out of the Old Testament.
There's a lot of this weird stuff to it
that you go like, well, why do pe why do
people have any say? Why is a human have
any say in what the word of God is? That
sounds crazy. And when you read the
scriptures, you're like, somebody wrote
that down and someone told that story
for who knows how many years before it
was ever written down. But I think the
origins of it, there's truth to it. It's
just you have to get through all these
many layers of confusion to try to
decipher what what God's original
message was and like what how was it
received? Who got it? How did it how did
it even get relayed? like what was was
the original event that led to this oral
tradition that led to it being written
down?
>> I'm smiling because this sounds exactly
like a young musician has come to see
this more learned person and tell him
about his experience
and the more learned person turns into
the manager or the record company and he
says I want to own this.
>> Right? And you know, they take all that
all that good intentions and faith and
somebody ends up
>> owning it and you end up paying a tithe,
you know, into a plate and they make a
lot of money.
>> See, in organized religion, especially
when it gets to like these huge
megaurches and preachers, like that's
exactly what it is.
>> It's someone taking advantage of this
good thing and profiting off of it
immensely.
>> Yeah. But the thing I think the point of
like if you live your life like God's
real, it'll be a better life.
>> I agree with that. I But I think you
also know I think you can just
>> There's something there.
>> It's it's sensible that you try to share
that you try not to be greedy. Yes. You
know, I don't mean you have to be a
fool. I just mean that
>> you don't have to be overtly always
taking way more than your share.
>> Yeah. Just be kind. be kind and be fair.
Um, how old were you when you first
started playing music?
>> You mean as an instrument?
>> Messing around. Like, how did you get
into it?
>> Right. Well, I was actually I was given
a snare drum. Uh, I think I was about
four years old. It was a really cheap
paper one.
>> Was your family musicians?
>> Uh, not really, but they were musical.
Both of them, my mom and dad. Um, one of
my one of my finest and favorite
memories is uh there was we lived in the
Bay Area of of the East Bay from San
Francisco.
And my parents would go up to this place
in Northern California near Winters,
California. That's up like toward
Sacramento. And there was this uh creek,
this body of water called the Puda
Creek. Eventually they damned that up
and made Lake Beressa.
Uh but anyway, back then it was just a a
running water and there was some people
could camp there. There was at this one
place they took me
um reputedly was owned by a man named
Cody
and he was a direct descendant of
Buffalo Bill Cody. I actually met him
one day when I was about four and he was
probably coming to collect the the
payment for the cabin and the you know
little space. Anyway, um and I I
remember looking at him and wow. So I
was told that story and he was he would
have been about 75. He literally could
have been a son of Buffalo Bill. He
would have been born at that point. It
was probably 1949.
the story I'm relating and he, you know,
would have been born in 1875. I mean,
it's mind-boggling to think that. Um,
but the the my favorite memory thing
other other than the fact that that
whole place inspired my song Green
River. That's all the little parts are
in Green River. Um, but one of the
things my parents had this old Ford, old
Green Ford, and they'd be driving along
at night up there is what I mean. I
guess they were more happy or something
there. And they I remember sitting
between them, you know, it was just a
big couch in the front seat and they
were singing songs in the dark and they
were singing like By the Light of the
Silvery Moon or Baby Face uh and
harmonizing.
One was taking the melody and the other
was harmonizing. The reason I know is
because I'd sat there and I'm probably
three, four, five years old right in
there. I said, "What are you guys
doing?" Because I knew the melody, but
but I hear two notes. What What are you
doing? And they explained they were
harmonizing. And it was just the coolest
thing. And it was so such a happy time.
I mean, I really I felt what's that
bonded to that, I guess, like that. I
really like this whatever it is.
So that was the initial spark.
>> Well, they began to notice that I I was
musical. So at some point I know I again
at my fourth birthday there somebody
gave me a or I had a little toy
harmonica
and my dad, you know those little
plastic kind of things. My dad picked it
up and he played Oh Susanna in the
cowboy style. In other words, it's
probably a C harmonica. He played in C,
not like blues players do bending notes.
He played that thing you see in the
cowboy movies when they're sitting
around the campfire and
that sort of thing. I was just shocked.
I'd never seen my dad do anything like
that. Wow. And then uh on top of that,
my mom could play piano, what we now
call stride piano. She would hit the and
then play a chord like a octave of bass
notes and then a chord above it.
keep that going as like the drummer in
the thing and then play melody and high
notes up above. And it was, you know,
she did she would
one of my favorite ones was um Harvest
Moon, Shine on Harvest Moon, which is a
great song and it just was magical to
me. So that that kind of opened the door
to let me know that, oh why, we can do
this in our own house.
Um, so the piano was around and then we
also, I don't know whose it was, but we
had an old Stella acoustic guitar.
Stella is a name going back into the
30s, 20s. And this thing was built like
a tank. Um, just it was hard to play.
The strings were like way high and all
that. Eventually, Brother Bob told me at
some point, "Yeah, we used to play
baseball with that guitar. we'd hit
ball.
That's how sturdy it was. But that was
around so that I would every once in a
while mess with it. Um, but somewhere
literally in the seventh grade is where
I started to really try and learn a
chord and that sort of thing.
>> Is that when you thought I'm going to be
a musician?
I think that moment was a little bit
earlier. It was again up at this place,
Winters. Um, my dad had driven into the
town from our little cabin, our
campsite,
and I was with him and he'd gone to this
general store and in the general store
had everything, had food and stuff, but
also had uh fishing tackle and, you
know, various weird things. So, I'm
standing there sort of near the counter
and my dad's doing some kind of
business. I'm just looking and suddenly
I hear music and I'm What the heck is
that? Well, I didn't even know they had
a jukebox in this place, right? And
somebody had started the jukebox. So,
that it's playing music that I really
like. It's rock and roll. And I'm, you
know, I'm about 10 years old. Man,
that's good. And I don't know who it is.
It's just got a really bluesy sound, but
it's it's fast. It's rock and roll. I
run over and I finally determined it's
Elvis Presley. I could I never heard
this. I knew of Elvis, of course, on TV.
He had done Heartbreak Hotel. I I had
seen the the Tommy Jimmy Dorsy show that
he'd been on three times. He was on
there, I think, five times. Anyway, um
and so, wow, Elvis did this. What is
this? So it turned out it was the other
side of his second big million seller
which was I want you I need you I love
you. This was a song called My Baby Left
Me. And this was basically classic Sun
Records vibe even though he was now on
RCA. It was that thing they did on Sun
Records that just that kind of country
whale with guitar that was more country
than blues. and the guitar especially
just I said what is that I'm watching
and this Scotty Moore who I didn't know
his name at the time but he's just
playing this
otherworldly stuff and that was I looked
at that and I I mean literally my head
made I don't know I said this to myself
I don't know what they're doing but
that's what I want to do.
>> Wow.
>> And I made up my mind right there in
that three minutes of that song.
>> That's amazing. Yeah.
>> Wow.
>> Well, it was transformative. It still
is. It's just a pretty unique slice of
American music.
>> I don't think I'm aware of that song. I
I'm going to listen to it after the
podcast.
>> You probably know his song, Elvis's
song, That's All Right, Mama.
>> Sure.
>> Right. Well, this is in that vein. It's
actually the same writer,
>> uh,
Arthur Credup.
>> Arthur Big Boy Cut Up. So, your family
was musical, but you didn't know any
musicians. So, what did you think you
were going to do? Like, how did you
think you were going to eventually
become a musician? Did you have a plan?
Um,
at some point,
you know what? At some point, a little
earlier than that, but right around that
time, it was the era of DooWap,
right?
This is the way I mean a kid can you can
just go anywhere in your mind right
and I suppose the Corvette automobile of
course had come out. So
in a very young mind but one of those
cool I guess we call them mashups I was
going to have a group but it was a all
singing. I was gonna have a group and it
was going to be called Johnny Corvette
and the Corvettes,
right? And there was four. I'm Johnny
and three other guys. And we're all in
sparkle jackets, you know, the the show
business, right?
>> And we're black.
All of us.
>> That was your idea?
That's what I saw. I was referring to
what I was seeing
to be Johnny Corvette in the Corvettes.
That was one of the ingredients.
>> How are you going to be black?
>> I don't know. I didn't have to worry
about that.
I mean, the the funny thing is that's so
similar here is like when I was little,
I wanted to be a baseball player, right?
But some kids dream of being in the NBA.
Mhm.
>> But you got to be 9117,
>> right?
>> You know, I mean, so how's that going to
happen? I mean, you just said it in a
really innocent way, but a kid just I'll
eat spinach or something, you know.
>> You eat spinach and become black
>> and tall.
>> Tall,
>> you know, I don't know, but it worked
for me. I mean, literally when I, you
know, one of my dreams as a kid really
was I wanted I love baseball. Still do.
I wanted the, you know, okay, what do I
got to do? And I'd start throwing a I
was throwing a ball against the side of
the house. I'd made a big like a target,
you know, bullseye. And I I don't know
why I did it that way. And my mom caught
me. I was throwing a actual hard ball
and it was bent the clapboard, you know,
the wood. It was I was tearing the house
down. So, she got me a tennis ball and
that was okay. I was no good, you know.
I wouldn't. It was I was that dream was
never going to happen.
>> Is that what inspired put me in coach?
>> Of course.
>> Yeah.
>> Oh, yeah.
>> What a great anthem.
>> Thank you.
>> It's amazing.
>> Thank you. Yeah. Well,
>> I mean, how many baseball games have
played that song? My my god. I mean, at
least, you know, I mean, there's a lot
of us semi- nerds, I guess, you know,
wanted to play ball, wanted to be a
jock, and just really at some point, you
know, the ones that really have it pass
you by,
>> right?
>> Of course.
>> And you just kind of But in your mind,
everybody got their scorecard and, you
know, and they're following the game and
all that. And that that vicarious joy of
watching Otani or Aaron Judge or whoever
it is you love. Uh
you get to have that in your heart
anyway. But I mean I'm the luckiest guy
in the universe. Okay. I didn't get to
play but I wrote a song and my song's
there all the time. It's just it's just
the coolest feeling. the song my that
song's in the Baseball Hall of Fame.
>> That's amazing.
>> It is amazing. It's ridiculous.
>> But it's just like that happened to me,
you know? It's like, God, I could cry
over that.
>> But when they had sent a letter to me
and they were going to, you know, and
put the music in the hall, I just was
>> God, who do I tell?
>> Geez. Yeah, it was so good.
>> That's amazing. That's amazing. So, when
we when did you start writing your own
songs? I was eight years old.
>> Wow.
>> Do you remember your first song?
>> Yes. Or at least the one I remember is I
call it the one I can remember.
It was u morning. I was getting ready to
go to school. I could walk to school was
like
two and a half blocks from my house,
something like that. I lived on Ramona.
You go past Pomona and then the next
street was
Ashberry
and the school was on Ashberry up about
two blocks, Harding School. Um, it was a
grammar school. Anyway, I'm getting
ready to go to school. Got my lunch. I
about to turn off the radio and this
commercial comes on. I was listening to
R&B, right? The rhythm and blues channel
from Oakland. And the DJ suddenly says,
"Do you have the wash day blues?
Is this day going to be drudgery becau?
Well, maybe you're using the wrong and
they went off talking about laundry
soap, right? I don't know if there was a
song involved in the commercial. I think
it was just a red because it was
probably live, you know, right there on
old time radio.
>> So, I went out the door when, you know,
carrying my little sack with the lunch
in it. It's a wash day blues. Wow.
>> I get kind of to the end of the street.
I think that's Lynn. I got to go down,
you know, three streets. I'm walking
along. Say, "Wow, what?
I got the white blue." I'm making that
noise. It's Muddy Waters. It's the riff
from um probably Hoochie Coochie Man,
you know,
>> right?
>> Uh and it all comes together. I'm just
walking down the street singing about
all the stuff that because it's blues,
right? Right. And I'm hearing all these
guys on this, you know, channel I listen
to sing the blues and about blues. So I
got wash day blues. That's my that's my
song.
You know, for years and years. I thought
I thought I was embarrassed about that
story. It's God, John, why couldn't you
have a great story about the sinking of
the Titanic or something? You watch day
blues it because it just seems so
mundane.
But now I kind of recognize because of
the the two elements I had put together
um it it's just kind of natural. It's
really the process of writing songs.
>> That's amazing. And so when when you
wrote songs like I I I saw this uh video
clip where you talking about I think it
was Old Man Down the Road. Is that the
the the beginning riff?
>> You had it.
>> Yeah. And you were talking about how
that riff just hit you.
>> Yep.
>> Is that
>> Well,
yeah. Um, I had this place. Uh, it was
my studio. It was a convert basically
the garage of a house that I had bought
to be my my office and my place. So, it
was a size of a garage uh that I would
go there every day. So in the morning
I'd get in, I'd turn on my tape recorder
and, you know, various pieces of
equipment and stuff. That was my process
certainly every weekday morning,
sometimes on Saturday, Sunday, whatever,
but certainly the five days a week. Um,
and I'd walk in there and uh work on
music. I did this every day for I mean
years and years from
74 until center field came out basically
which was 11 years later. Um
and so one morning I walk in and I
haven't even turned on the the stuff
yet. I just for some reason I went right
to the guitar and I turned on the amp
and picked up the guitar and just kind
of noodling because I like to do that. A
lot of my songs have started this way
but suddenly just played
and it really had that sound to it and I
I got my attention because I knew that
it wasn't anything else and I also I
mean this is like in a this is how quick
our brains can work, you It's taken me
way longer to tell it than the actual
thing. But so I've played the
and I realize it's not complete. It
needs an answer. And I'm also aware that
it's like being on a tight rope or
something over Niagara Falls. You know,
you got to have the right answer and
there's probably only one cuz all the
other ones are going to kill it and
you'll never remember this again because
that happens all the time, right?
>> You know, it'd be lame. You you there,
it's precarious. It's hanging in the air
and you got to come back with the thing
to make it complete and it has to be the
right thing.
Yeah.
Yes. And so I
Oh my god. Yeah. And I've you know I
play it over and over probably for five
minutes. I just tend to do that. That's
that's the joy of music. That's the joy
right there. That because I knew it
wasn't anything else. There was no
question in my mind. Well, is this
coming from, you know, the Beatles or
Howland Wolf or something? Right.
>> Um, so immediately
I I had kept this little song book
that's only about that big
>> uh with titles in it and I go flipping
through the the book and I think I see
something that's somewhere down the
road. Okay, that for some reason
appealed to me and I stuck with Okay,
that's what it's called. This song is
going to be somewhere down the road and
that day I start. So now I turn on my
tape recorder and all that. I play some
because I had to play real drums and um
that's what took me so long folks.
Anyway, um, so I make a little thing
that's just the riff and then make a
space of just the drums playing and
nothing else so I can kind of listen to
it and improvise what's what's going on
after this riff, what's somewhere down
the road. And of course, I start talking
about uh
he get the thunder from the mountain, he
bring the lightning from the sky, you
know, and all that. and these things are
going on and some you got to shoot
forward probably a few weeks. I realize
I'm starting to write a song but the
title somewhere down the road to me just
seems lame. It seems undefined, not cool
enough, not focused and probably not
going to remember it because it it
sounds like just what it is. You won't
remember that.
>> Right.
>> Right. You know, if you say, "I've got a
polka dot Chevy sitting on top of a
bull moose or whatever, and that's your
title." You probably get a picture in
your head, you know, right?
>> It's going to stick. So, I'm hunting
around. What are you doing here? What
are you talking about in this song?
We're talking about this guy. He's He's
evil. He's the old man. He's the old man
down the road.
Oh, that's way better. So, it the song
became that.
>> The the deal is with my little song
book.
>> Probably two years later after the that
album had come out, I said, "You know
what? I want to I want to check on where
Somewhere Down the Road came." And I
went cover to cover
and it's not in there. There is no place
where I've written Somewhere Down the
Road. I just thought I saw it and that
led me to a really cool song.
>> Wow.
>> The reason I'm telling you this is there
was a time I I had an office in Warner
Brothers and I would when I was staying
down in uh LA and I would go in there
all the time and write, had some
keyboards and stuff. And one day I
thought I needed a break. I took my book
and I went out and sat. It was Warner
Brothers parking lot. My car is went out
to my car and sat down because I was
trying to give myself some
in, you know, get going, do something.
And I thumb through the book and I saw
change in the weather and I said, "Man,
I like that."
And I look up and it's kind of a cloudy,
gloomy sky, you know, and Yeah. Changing
the Yeah. So, I ran back in my room and
I started I went off. I was inspired and
I wrote a song called Changing the
Weather. Well, same deal. After that
album came out, I decided to check my It
ain't in there. Is nowhere in my book
where it says change in the weather. So
I nowadays tell people, you know, maybe
it's a shape shifter and there's stuff
in there it can just kind of go, John,
listen to this. I got an idea for you.
>> Right. Well, the creative process is so
mysterious. Yes.
>> Cuz everybody that I talk to, whether
it's comedians or authors or musicians,
they say the ideas almost don't feel
like they're theirs, like they're
receiving them from somewhere
>> for certain.
>> That's how you feel?
>> Yep. To me, it's it's like tuning in a
radio.
>> Yeah.
>> Right. And
and a lot of it there's I guess it's the
way I was raised. You kind of have to be
worthy,
>> right?
>> You know, I mean, there's a a big dose
of if you're all angry and treating
people mean and doing all that, I'm
closing the book. I'm not sending you
nothing.
>> I think that, too.
>> Yeah.
>> I think that, too. You got to be
receptive and and honor
>> this process that we're going through
here. And you if you are in that frame
of mind and
>> some humility about this whole thing,
>> maybe I'll send you something.
>> The Muse.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Have you ever heard of Steven
Presfield?
>> Huh?
>> Steven Presfield. He's an author. He
wrote a great book called The War of
Art. And uh I give this book I have
boxes of this book out front and I give
it to comedians and artists all the time
because it's just a book about the
creative process about writing. And one
of the things that he talks about is the
muse about giving honor to the muse and
sitting there and and calling upon the
muse for these ideas that if you treat
it like it's a real thing, it will
provide you. If you show up every day
and you put in the work, the muse will
give you these ideas.
>> Yep. But they do feel like to everybody
that I talk to that's really creative,
they feel like they're coming from
somewhere.
>> Yeah. And Yeah. It it feels like it's
always been there,
>> right?
>> And it's just up to you to be able to
>> actually be able to see it or hear it.
Right.
>> Yeah.
>> So I I do a lot of I get ideas in my
head. I'm just walking around and it'll
play
>> to say to me the same as if you're
listening to the radio.
>> It just gets in the head. You start
feeling it. But
um I I do believe you have to
you have to be doing it all the time.
Like for me it was a process to actually
sit down, be ready, and a lot of times
nothing happens. You know, you got a
blank sheet of paper and it stays blank,
>> right?
>> You know,
>> um
>> but if you do that enough times,
at certain times you'll get a really
good inspiration. Yeah,
>> you'll be that's the way I You'll be
allowed to receive it.
>> Yeah.
>> Right. But it it really isn't you,
>> right?
>> That's the way I I think of it. What it
is is you have talent. You're supposed
to honor your talent. And so I'm going
to give you something if you're worthy.
And now it's up to you to honor, you
know, use yourself. Don't just go, I got
it. We're done. No, you got to work it
now. Punish it. You know, make it. Yeah.
Yeah. I I I feel the exact same way. I
think I think there's truth to what
you're saying. Um I want to ask you
about Fortunate Son. How did you write
that? Like how did how did that come
about? That is like one of the greatest
rebellion songs of all time.
>> Appreciate that.
>> It's an amazing song. I love it. It's
It's also a fantastic workout song, by
the way. That song gets you jazzed up.
If you're doing like a treadmill or
something like that, you're starting to
get tired, crank that sucker up.
>> Well, um,
first of all, I think the first thing I
got to say about it is I was drafted, so
I was in the military and I I've got in
the Army reserves, but um was well and
was on active duty and all the rest. So
I well understood
the
position of
uh you might say the military mindset,
right? Even though I was a I was a young
person and this is right during the
Vietnam era. And I think I I I really
need to say that almost no one my age
wanted to be in the army and go to
Vietnam. I just that was something you
no I don't want to do that right
>> so I got my draft notice um
was got into the army reserves so I
understood that side of the coin and
that side of fate you might say um the
deal I think the deal being okay I'm in
the military so now I got to play by the
rules I got to do everything. That's
This is what I am, right?
>> Yeah.
>> Um there's a little there's a little bit
of the whole idea of being American and
serving your country. What I'm I'm
trying not to trying not to say, "Oh
yeah, now I'm gung-ho and I'm John Wayne
and I'm going to take take on Eroima or
something." You know, it was more like,
"Yeah, but you got to do this right."
you know, you you can't just be a some
guy that's on awall all the time and
being a mess, you know, I wanted to do
it right. So, um I I went through all of
that and it's it's another story, but
eventually got my honorable discharge,
which led to another song, but it's a
different song. Um, and that was just
before just as the Credence career was
getting started. But anyhow,
um,
during the Vietnam
time, you began to, you know, there were
there was a lot of unrest, civil unrest
in America and around the world. Those
times were very volatile. But especially
in America, there was a lot of protests
and discussion about the war itself.
Remember, there was a draft. So, young
people kind of by nature were against
the war and against the draft because it
seemed to be sort of
not logical. How's that? Um,
and in some instances you would see on
the news, you know, some senator who had
the political clout that he could keep
his teenage son from being drafted or
get his teenage son into some cushy job.
And you you kind of saw it a few times.
These guys were
the fix was in, you know, right?
>> And that just really didn't seem fair.
Not not just in my own case, but I I
more identified with the people that
were protesting the war. No one had ever
really explained why we were having that
war. To my mind, we still don't know,
>> right?
>> You know, it just somebody's ego decided
they wanted to have a war and they had a
war. So most of these things that have
cropped up ever since have always ended
kind of miserably. Um and we never they
never were one. They just sort of
dissolved,
>> right?
>> Um so there was no marching band and all
that stuff to get to, you know, like
World War II ended with a decisive
victory. Anyhow,
that angst and anger within me about
that situation
uh was fueling my thoughts about
the current times. This was 1969.
So I started showing the band all the
songs that the band
learned and played uh throughout the the
Credence career. They literally learned
them as instrumentals. They didn't hear
the song. I didn't show them the song.
So they, in other words, a bass player,
I would show the bass player his part.
Here's how your part goes. Here's how
the drums will be. Here's the rhythm
guitar part. And the band wouldn't
actually hear the whole song until I had
gone into the studio after that
recording process and added my vocal,
sang the background vocal parts.
>> Oh wow.
>> Uh played the conga drum or the shakers
or tambourine or piano, you know, all
the other stuff. Then they heard how the
song went. Um, so they learn their parts
as instrumentals
and this was ex exactly that way. I
showed them how the to play what was the
form of the song and that I didn't even
I don't think I had told them the name
of the song yet. I thought I was writing
a song called Favorite Son
>> because um starting in 1952 when they
sent my second grade class I think home
to watch um to watch the inauguration I
believe of Eisenhower.
Uh I think that's what it was. And all
you you know we had a tiny little TV.
All I saw was big black limousines. It's
that was my entire impression of the
presidential thing. Right.
>> And politics. So after that, I kind of
would watch uh parts of the conventions
in the summer. uh you know there'd be
these gigantic
you know I didn't know what they were
then but these big rooms full of smoke
and every once in a while somebody
your honor the great state of Texas
would like to nominate her favorite son
Billy Saul Estus or whatever right and
they all said that you know the state of
Vermont would like to nominate her
favorite son. And so that I had written
that one down in my book and I thought I
was going to write a kind of a political
song. So the band was getting pretty
solid in the in the backing track and
that told me, you know, I was driving a
career. I mean, I there wasn't someone
else telling me. I was the one deciding
and pushing and I think pushing pretty
hard. I just I wanted a new single to be
ready and this seemed like it might be
it. So I at one point after the band had
been rehearsing the music for that song,
Unfortunate Son, uh for a few weeks, it
was getting pretty good. All right, I
got to write the words. I got to get the
whole song together. I took a little
yellow tablet like that went in my
bedroom and sat on the bed
and instead of what I thought it was
going to be the first thing I said some
you know this idea of the red, white and
blue and they're always super patriots
you know all this stuff and bluster and
all that
right and I how do I get that? How do I
get that? Well, they're waving the flag
and yeah, but what's going on now?
They're pointing the cannon at you,
right?
Yeah, but it ain't me. And I realized,
oh, wow, that's something I can repeat.
It ain't me. I ain't I that ain't no,
you know, and literally that I mean it I
just sort of did it in front of you
almost the way it played out of me
sitting on that bed. literally walked in
and 20 minutes later walked out with the
whole song.
>> Wow.
>> Coming from the I didn't have anything
other than favorite son. The rest was
just the stuff that was boiling in my
head at the time of course. Um basically
because of wellhealed people uh getting
out of the draft which kind of pissed me
off. Yeah. You know, I just, you know,
there were a lot of guys now that I was
in the or had been in the military and I
knew there were a lot of other guys felt
just like me. Wasn't like they I didn't
grow up that I wanted to be a soldier
and go do that. It was just fate that
made that happen. So, the unfairness of
the situation
made me want to talk about that.
>> Well, you nailed it. It's such a great
song. So, did you have the music all
settled out when you went to the
musicians and explained to them how the
song was going to play out? Did you have
that before the lyrics?
>> Yes.
>> Almost always.
>> So, what did you think the song was
going to be about when you when you just
brought them to music?
>> Well, I as I said, I thought it was
going to be favorite son.
>> So, you you kind of still had the theme
in your head of how
>> it was something around that stuff. I
just didn't know what it would. And I
also,
>> you know, how there's a t-shirt though,
the older I get, the better I was, you
know. Um, I was pretty good then, you
know. I guess what I'm trying to say is
I didn't know what the song was going to
be, but I mean, now I would certainly
have a little trepidation. I'd go in a
room with a blank. I'm probably going to
come out of there with a some, you know,
a smiley face that I doodled or
something. no words. Meaning somehow I
was counting on myself to do it. But
that's that's pretty precocious, right?
>> Yeah. But that's also that divine
intervention of the muse like you put in
the work
>> and you called you called upon it for
inspiration and your mind started
lighting up
>> and then you started putting the pieces
together.
>> Yeah.
>> Oh, that's a wonderful Joe. That's
that's an amazing
process when cuz that's what I do. I'm
not a prize fighter, you know. I'm not a
baseball pitcher, let's say, because
there would be an evolution in his work,
right? you know, or something that you
can I'm I'm not those things, but I I am
a songwriter and that that it plays out
over some it isn't just once, you know,
it plays out over some time and
that incidence where you suddenly get a
hook into an idea and then the
the gods, the muse, they let you
continue forward with something that was
way better than you ever dreamed was
going to be it and suddenly it wow this
is really cool and you're excited and
you're happy and and it's coming to be
and you realize as I said that was by
the way by far the quickest I ever wrote
a song and that's so quick so fast
that you I mean it's almost like instant
replay that was so fast that you you or
at least I did. I man this is really
good. I mean and you just like a minute
ago I was taking a breath hoping that
something would happen.
>> Yeah. Well, that's what's amazing about
great songs sometimes. Like John
Melanchamp was telling me a story about
uh uh I need a lover that won't drive me
crazy. Like that song he wrote in the
shower.
>> Oh,
>> like all day in one shower.
>> In one shower. He was just taking a
shower and all of a sudden I need a
lover that won't drive me crazy. Right.
>> And then next thing you know he's got
it. Yep.
>> And it's an alltime classic.
>> Yep.
>> It's amazing. Well, that
the the songwriter and especially when
he's on his game, he he knows it's and
and it it relates to your own
personality, the kind of whatever it is
you like, the stuff you have gravitated
towards. And so when one of those comes
along, it really makes you smile because
you're going, "Yeah, this is this sounds
like me. This is the stuff I like." and
you you go with it cuz I mean you know I
I am I I would say notoriously corny you
know at least I think I am you know the
it it's like they make all these jokes
nowadays about dad bod and all those
kind of things. Yeah. I mean I literally
think that's me right
>> and some of this I mean center field is
>> the corniest thing that was ever in
invented. I mean I love it. I
unashamedly want to be corny. It it's
that's who I am. I'm corny, right? But
it I mean in that song it just that
resonates with I'm h I'm
>> I'm I'm glad I'm happy. I'm happy to be
happy. I want to be happy. Right. In
other words, I don't have to feel
because rock and roll is all about dark
colors and leather jackets and piercing
and you know tats and everything and a
scowl. You know, Elvis would
all that stuff. That's good. I mean, you
know, but
I like, you know, well, it seems to be
me. I can just be unashamedly
happy and I'm glad, you know, like
Center Field is so optimistic and just
great.
>> It's an awesome song.
>> Yeah.
>> I I don't think rock and roll is all
dark. I think there's aspects of rock
and roll that people like that are dark
because it's mysterious. These guys are
rock stars. But,
>> you know, rock's everything. It's like
there's so many layers to it. There's so
many different types of personality and
you happy to be happy is also an awesome
part of rock.
>> Yeah.
>> Clearly.
>> Yeah. Well, because actually a real
people all as humans sort of have all
those different parts, right?
>> Yeah. That's why we identify with it. I
think the the brooding dark rockstar is
like
>> it's a fantasy idea that people want to
they they want to believe that there's
that part of them you know there's this
just you know what I mean
>> I'm going to say abs it's absolutely and
um you know Marlon Brando on the
motorcycle in the is it the wild ones I
guess
>> yeah I think so
>> um
>> you know that
he's just So bad.
>> Yeah.
>> And so
rock stars in well other I guess but
rockstar because it was right in that
era they invented or gravitated to in
other words one picture defines me.
>> Yeah.
>> This is my uniform.
You know I sleep in this.
>> Yeah.
>> You know I mean and so you know I've got
a big chain and a leather jacket. you
know, now I mean it got more and more
violent or dark, you know, hoodoo
voodoo, you know, and all that. Um, but
and it's it's funny because it's
basically I'm all this all the time.
>> Yeah.
>> This this one picture does it. And I I
kind of my wife and I joke about it
because she'll kind of say something
like, "Well, you don't dress like a rock
star." And then of course I'll say, "Cuz
I'm not right." Um I I I always sort of
I mean I have a leather jacket
somewhere, right? Or two even. Uh
and it it how can I say it? To me it was
it was a uniform. To me it was a pose.
And so you know I tend to actually just
put on clothes you can buy in the store
when I get up in the morning. Got to
take my kids to school. You know I
didn't put on the whole like
just got off the stage at at uh I don't
know name some place at the whiskey,
right? You know, and now I'm bringing my
kids to school. Hey, Mrs. What? How you
doing? Flip my cigarette over into the
I guess I could be a sitcom or
something, but uh that wasn't me. I just
I kind of was normal dad to my And I'm
glad they saw me that way, tell you the
truth.
>> Yeah, absolutely. Look, the the idea is
silly that everybody has to be one way.
It's ridiculous. It's ridiculous.
>> Yep.
>> Well, clearly when you look at what you
produced, like you clearly are a rock
star and you did it by being yourself.
Like
>> actually, I think you nailed it there.
Um,
here's a real truism. when you're making
something and it's and we talked about
this and it's resonating with you. It
just seems like in your wheelhouse it's
you it's that's probably going to be
really good. It's comfortable. Sounds
like this you or you relate you relate.
It's great. If you ever get yourself as
a songwriter, singer, whatever. Well, so
and so is going to really like that I
did this and you're off on some weird
thing trying to, you know, be a change
or different or something. That's not
going to work. Absolutely not going to
work because you're you think somebody
else sees it a certain way and you're
doing it for them and God knows whatever
that is, but it isn't you at all. you
you probably are just out of your
element. Off the rails, you might say,
>> and guys do get off the rails.
>> Oh, I've done it myself.
>> You know, oh yeah, especially being
preachy and that kind of thing. You
know, there's some songs that Oh, God.
John, shut up.
>> Where where does that come from? Does
that come from just you have a big
audience and you all these people look
up to you and you just start feeling
you're important?
Um,
I think I think some of it I don't I
don't know all the answers. Who does?
But, um, you're in a in a mood where
you're or a mode you're you're you want
to get some material together. You want
to make a record. You want to have some
stuff finished and maybe you're not so
inspired, right? So, okay. Well, I'm
going to How about if I talk about
whatever and you start trying it's
almost like a square peg in a round
hole. Well, yeah, I got to do something
because there's there is
some credence to that. Just work. Just
start working. Just start moving, you
know. Don't just sit there. Do
something. Sorry. And keep grinding and
maybe eventually it'll get to where it's
natural. You know, the good part.
>> Yeah. because just sitting and doing
nothing, which I've certainly been
accused of, is that's
nothing for no one, right? So, you start
moving your feet and trying to get the
juices to flow and all that. Um, but
like I said, yeah, I wrote some songs, a
whole album really, uh, called Eye of
the Zombie. It was the followup to, uh,
Center Field. And
I think well I I had some other some
ulterior not that I did it on purpose
but some other ingredients came into my
mix. I I'll get there in a minute. But
anyway, the album as a whole is pretty
dark and pretty and
not doesn't ring true to me. I I think
it's kind of
misses the mark. It's off.
That's a that album and that period of
my life is a really interesting
um
really interesting
phenomenon. I think that I'm not the
only one. It's just that I consider
myself lucky. So, I worked for, you
know, I I had this enormous band, number
one in the world. um get screwed by the
record company, lose my life savings,
band breaks up, bands in the in the
newspaper saying nasty things about me,
etc. Uh I'm held kind of in a dungeon by
the record company and I got to either
give them my music or no one else, you
know. Um, and I somehow managed to get
through all that and it's 15 years after
Credence breaking up basically finally
come out with an album called
Centerfield. There's happy joyful music
on it. It goes to number one. It's
acclaimed which is a wonderful thing and
it's a hit. Uh,
I think what happened, this is the story
I tell about it. It's as if you'd been
unjustly in prison, you know, convicted
of a crime, put in the penitentiary for
a long time, and one day they decide,
oops, you're right. We made a mistake.
You're free because you didn't commit
any crimes. We're going to let you free.
And you're so happy you walk out the
door. That's center field coming out and
you come out into this big meadow where
you know green grass and bluebirds and
you know it's a Disney cartoon. Right.
>> Right.
>> And then you turn around and you see
freaking San Quentin the prison that you
were in and now you're angry. You look
at that and you're just what the That's
what happened. I you know I when
centerfield came out
I should have and was a success. In
other words I was exonerated or
vindicated.
I should have immediately gone to
therapy right seen a shrink but that
kind of not my that I wasn't raised
anywhere near any of that kind of stuff.
So I didn't know to do that. uh instead
all that stuff that I was repressing so
that I could do center field
it just came out like and I was instead
of being overjoyed I was miserable
bitter
and it happened all at once it didn't
like develop it was bam and for like two
years it was like you could say Saul's
name
I would implode like the werewolf in uh
and uh werewolves of London or
something, you know, or the what's that
guy? Uh the Hulk.
>> Yeah.
>> Um
and so I made that album and that's all
that stuff. I mean, I just didn't have
the sense to see that it was it was
nothing like Center Field, right?
>> Not a good This guy's not happy. It was
not a good followup.
>> Um
>> how did you bounce back?
>> I met Julie. uh
you know right in the middle of that
tour in ' 86 for
um Eye of the Zombie or as we so I am a
zombie you know uh I met Julie and even
though I didn't know I I thought I was
in perpetual binge mode uh basically
okay I'm going to go out and tour. Now
I'm just going to be a rock star on the
road and be be everything I never got to
do for 20 years. Right now I'm like a
I'm a little kid musician again. That's
what I thought I was doing. Obviously
that comes from some anger to talk like
that.
>> Yeah.
>> And so I just thought I was going to
make my way through the Hollywood Hills,
you might say. I think I actually said
that in those days.
And
one day just suddenly met Julie
not expecting to meet the love of my
life as the person I feel that was that
I was destined to meet and the person
that would
through her good graces
help me find myself and help me enjoy
and find the joy of life again. Um, and
it all it all changed.
>> That's awesome. That's awesome. It's
great that you bounced out of that
because a lot of people don't. You know,
when something bad happens to them, they
they just go into a spiral. They get
>> It's kind of amazing that you were
joyful at first, but then you started
getting resentful and thinking about it,
which is totally understandable.
>> Well, you said a spiral, and that's just
what it felt like. You're just kind of
getting
>> it's getting worse and worse, not
better. alcohol as well, right?
>> Yep.
>> Yeah.
>> And boy, you don't you know they call it
takes you a long time to figure out it's
a depressant.
>> Yeah.
>> You are you're drinking. You think
you're drinking to forget stuff, but
you're getting more and more depressed,
>> right? Yeah.
>> And it's weakening your resolve, your
your your body. It's weakening your
vitality. So, you're tired and you're
angry.
>> That too. And your and your mindset.
>> Yeah. you're just in a in a miserable
mood.
>> And it's also that's also in the the
rock and roll stereotype, you know, the
the drinking, hard partying. Like one of
my favorite songs when I was a kid uh
was uh Bad Company Shooting Star. And
every kid that used to listen to that
thought they were Johnny. Like Johnny
was a school boy when he heard his first
Beatles song. It's a sad song. The guy
dies young, becomes a rockstar, and
winds up dead. And everybody like was
romanticizing this song of this terrible
lifestyle that this guy lived. This guy
was super talented and had the gift.
>> Well, it's based on, you know, some
reality there, of course.
>> Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Um,
unfortunately, yeah, we we really
romanticize the idea of dying young,
bring burn bright, die young. And it's
it's all cool until
they're pointing at you and you're the
one that's going to die.
>> I mean, at that moment in life, most
people, no, I don't want to die.
>> I know.
>> You know, up until then, there just sort
of a vague idea out there somewhere.
>> Right. Right. Right. But weird that it's
a romantic vague idea, you know? Johnny
died one night, died in his bed, bottle
of whiskey, sleeping tablets by his
head. Like we just just like assumed
like this is how it goes, you know, like
this is the rock and roll romantic
story.
>> Well, you you hear those words when
you're young, of course, and right that
actually sounds kind of positive,
you know, because rock and roll, man.
Yeah. When you're older, you can hear
the same words and you say, "Yes, that's
real." But it's not a positive thing
anymore. It's just sort of a statement
of fact, right?
>> Yeah.
>> I mean, there's a I'm I'm sitting here
now, you know, talking about some parts
of me that are
certainly embarrassed about and probably
ashamed of. I've I've let the shame part
go. it just happened, right? I mean, I
don't encourage anyone and I try to tell
them, "No, stay away from don't do what
I did." Um,
and but I used to beat myself up a lot
with the shame part. And I think that
might be part of the healing, part of
the getting out the other end. Um
be because the more and more solid you
get in the resolve of the way you're
going to really live your life and not
that
>> the kind of more the shame dissipates
and you you you're not so it's not
tenuous anymore like oh I might fall
back you know you're not so scared that
that could happen anymore.
>> I think the shame is an important
element. Yeah.
>> I think the shame of your your past and
the mistakes that you've made motivates
you to never make them again. Yes.
>> As long as you don't think you're still
that person. That's the problem with
some people. They'll do something in
high school and they carry that for the
rest of their life. Like that whatever
it is, whatever stupid mistakes they
made, whatever behavior they they think
that's them forever. And that's what's
crazy.
>> Be able to grow up and and be I mean,
you know, kids I got married the first
time at 20. I mean, there just should be
a law. Um, you know, you're you're just
too young. You don't you don't know what
you're doing. You don't know what all
this really means,
>> right?
>> Um,
certainly by the time I met Julie,
>> you know, you know what though, that
experience made me shy away for a few
years there from the whole idea of a a
marriage commitment. I was committed,
but the marriage part scared me. You
know, it just, oh my goodness. And then
one day I realized I was sort of, well,
wait a minute, go back to square one.
What's the most joyful, happy thing you
can do? Well, I want to marry her,
right? And have children and have a
white picket fence and a house and we go
to kindergarten and all those things,
you know, we bake cookies at the PTA. I
want all that.
>> Yeah. So, sure.
>> It's crazy because that's not what
anybody thinks of when you think of a
rock and roll life.
>> Uh
>> oh.
>> Right.
>> I suppose. See, I'm corny again.
>> It's not corny. I think it's authentic.
>> I don't think there's anything wrong
with the way you think at all. I think
it's it's healthy. It's healthy.
>> You know, I I just really even though my
my mom
I mean, she was a warrior, you know.
Think of it. There were five boys. That
was my family. Uh my parents split up
when I it was kind of a long ongoing
thing, but somewhere around 8 years old.
And so it was my mom's job to raise
these five boys. And I, you know, at
some point being a teenager, a little
later, I said, "It's a wonder we're not
all in San Quinton." You know, I mean,
somehow
she had enough of her. She gave enough
of her to inspire us, all of us really,
to be good people. I mean, you know, we
all had our faults and foibless and fell
down and all that, but yet the ideal was
to try and reach up here and be a good
person and and that was because our
family wasn't in in some sense to try
and have a normal family, you know,
leave it to be and all that sort of
thing.
>> Yeah. So that was a that was a big goal
to me, a big inspiration to to want
that.
>> Well, it's a beautiful thing. There's
nothing wrong with that idea.
>> Not at all.
>> Not at all. It's just the idea that
there's something wrong with it. It's
that that's the fake rock and roll
vision. That's the vision of the dark
artist. You know,
>> I think um I don't know if I talked with
Julie about this. Sometimes we show up
at stuff and there'll be a lot of
characters. I'm talking about musical
things. A lot of characters roaming
around there, you know, and you know, I
kind of look like
um Ward Clever, Beaver's dad, you know,
Mr. uh Mr. Boy Scout or something
walking around, you know, and she's
looking at me like, "Well, couldn't you
have worn something a little more I
don't
>> little more rock and roll?"
>> Yeah, maybe. And I I I'm just not
bothered. I mean it it it is kind of
funny though. Actually I worn some cool
clothes at some of the stuff that would
that would all be Julie's doing of
course. Um
yeah I mean it's
>> it's almost like you know could you
could you show up at a reunion of uh
rock guys you know in their 50s or
something? Everybody pull out their
blotter you know their police blood. Oh
yeah, I got busted for me. And everybody
would have a
>> a wrap sheet.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> I mean, it would be a badge of honor,
but I suppose to me I'm I'm just really
glad that it wasn't like that.
>> Well, it's just you being authentic.
It's a powerful thing. It's it's great
too because the influence is to not the
influence is to create an image, you
know, and a lot of people cultivated
that image, you know, course and they
get kind of captured by it.
>> Yeah.
>> And then you have to be that person
forever. You can't like switch
>> Letterman
to Pee-Wee Herman on his show. Just
think Pee-Wee, you're going to have to
dress like that for the rest of your
life.
>> It's true, right? Right.
>> Yeah. You become a character and then
that's what people love. They don't love
you. They love this fake thing that
you've presented.
>> It's the cowboy thing, the motorcycle,
>> whatever. I I look I like all those too
actually.
>> Yeah.
>> I you know I love the
>> I I like keeping it as a a fantasy.
Um, I watch some TV shows and my
favorites are the the the modern, you
know, like Yellowstone and all the other
ones after that. It's probably a lot of
a lot of what do you call that literary
license, you know?
>> Sure.
>> For imagery, but I love the imagery.
Yeah.
>> I mean, I can sit there and watch that
river flowing back past those rocks and
the pine trees forever and some cows
going over the That's okay.
>> Stoic cowboys living this rough life.
>> I like all that.
>> Of course, everybody does. It's very
romantic when you're looking at it from
the outside, especially.
>> Yep.
>> I mean, how many people moved to Montana
because of that show?
>> They're hoping not so many.
>> I bet a lot did, though. A lot did, and
I think a lot left.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. I think they realize how hard the
winters are and they're like, "All
right, whoa,
>> this ain't this ain't my uh romantic
idea."
>> Yeah. And it's a long winter up there.
>> Yeah.
>> Oh, boy.
>> Yeah. Music is uh it's one of the most
powerful things in American culture
because a great song like Fortunate Son
can inspire people to change their
lives. It can inspire people to make
decisions. It does it does things to
people. It gives you fuel. Like I was
saying, like if I listen to that song
when I'm working out, it's like I took
an energy pill. Like all a sudden I have
more energy.
>> Like that's real. It's a It's a powerful
thing that you've created. It really is,
you know, and the fact that you did it
out of love and enjoyment speaks to why
the music is so it resonates so much
with people. Well, you know, especially
with that song, um, at that point in,
uh, in in the career of my band,
remember, I was writing all the songs.
Um, I'll talk about that after this, I
guess, in a minute. Um, but I wanted to
have a just a allout screaming rocker,
which we didn't have yet. you know, the
career was about a year and a half old.
And so, I mean, I commissioned myself to
I I I want to have that
that absolutely loud screaming song with
the guitars and all. And so, that was
sort of the commission I gave myself to
create
>> as opposed to something like, "Have you
ever seen the ring?"
>> Yeah.
>> Or even Down on the Corner, which is a
different vibe, right? You know, I
wanted to because I like that. I like
when bands, you know, uh the Beatles
actually I want to hold your hand or she
was just 17. Saw her standing there, I
guess. Um
>> you know when or uh it's not really
fast, but it certainly had that vibe.
You know, the instrumental Rumble by
Link Ray.
>> I See, I've missed you. Cool.
>> Yeah. I don't know that song.
>> Can you put that one up? Yeah, pull that
one up.
>> We'll get We'll get flagged. We'll
remove it.
>> Do you do that? You play little snippets
of music?
>> We can play snippets, but the problem
is,
>> you know, everything we just been
talking about.
>> Yeah.
>> Everything, including the guy.
>> If there's a clip of him playing that,
>> the the only problem is we'll we can't
put it on the podcast itself or we'll
get flagged. But we can listen to it
right now and then we just cut that part
out.
>> That was the musical scale right there.
>> What's What is that? I took so much out
of that. But anyway, he was look then
Rumble the song. Who's the guy? Link
Ray. Oh god, that's so cool. And when
you saw him, black leather jacket,
skinny as a rail, probably had a
probably a motorcycle there. I mean, it
was the entire thing in one little two
and a half minute saw.
>> Wow. Look at him there. God, does he
look
>> He's a little older there, but it's
Yeah,
he's bad.
>> Wow. He looks cool as hell. Yeah. It's
It's always fascinating to me um where
artists had like one incredible song and
then never made it like and you'll find
out about that song and you go, "This is
incredible. How did this guy never make
it? How am I Do you know who Johnny
Thunder is?
>> I've heard the name." Okay, play I'm
Alive for him. There's a song that my
friend Brian Simpson told me about. God,
it must have been like a couple years
ago now. And uh he played it for us in
the Mothership, the comedy club, the
Green Room. He goes, "You're going to
love this song." And I went, "Who is
this?" We got to figure out who it was.
It's a song from 1969 by this guy,
Johnny Thunder.
>> 69.
>> 1969. And it's [ __ ] incredible. It's
such a good song. And I'm like this if
if I didn't know any better, I'm like,
"Oh, this guy must have been a huge
star." Like if I know, but if I heard
that and someone said, "This guy's a
huge star." Have you heard the song
about, "Oh my god, it sounds like a huge
star." Like, "This guy's fantastic."
Listen to this. Listen to this. How good
is that?
>> It's great.
>> How good is that? Song's phenomenal,
right?
>> Yeah. Did he ever like under a different
name or anything? How?
>> Nope.
>> Oh my goodness.
>> Nope.
Isn't
>> that crazy? Now, we started playing that
song. The attitude's great. He's saying
a lot of great stuff. The drum's great.
>> It's incredible.
>> Yeah.
>> The the voice is incredible. The sound's
incredible.
>> We played that song on the podcast and a
couple years ago and now the song's in
commercials and all these different
things.
>> Oh, is that true?
>> Yeah. Yeah. But he's dead now. He's
dead. He He died I think he died in
2019 or something like that.
>> Died in 2024.
>> 2024. Wow.
>> Oh, wow. So, he probably died like right
after we discovered him.
Isn't that crazy?
Isn't that crazy? I mean, you hear that,
you're like, "How did that guy not be
one of the biggest artists in the
world?"
>> Or at least have that song be a big
thing.
>> That song wasn't even a big hit, right?
>> It's crazy. It's it it just you realize
the the slippery nature of success,
especially with art. Like sometimes guys
just catch lightning. They got that one.
>> Yep.
>> And that's it.
>> I be, you know, I think any artist
that's been around a while,
>> he had another hit.
>> Yeah. That was his biggest
>> doop. Oh, I know that song.
>> Oh, Johnny Thunder featuring the
Bobettes. When did when did this come
out?
>> 1963.
>> Number four.
>> Oh, that's the song. I I know that one.
>> Wow.
>> I didn't know who the uh the name Here
we go. Loop.
>> Isn't that crazy? That song was Johnny
Thunder's only top 40 hit. That's
incredible.
>> How high did it say it got?
>> Said number four. Number four on the US
pop charts.
>> Wow.
>> Number six US R&B charts.
>> Wow. And the the album uh in Canada
reached number 14 two separate weeks.
It's incredible because if you hear that
other song like that other song is that
should be gigantic. I'm alive should be
a huge hit
>> right
statement of you know it's like I'm a
man or something. I've played that for
so many musicians
>> and they listen to it and they never
heard it before
>> and so many guys like, "OH, OH MY GOD."
YOU HEAR like you hear them like, "Oh,
baby." It's just cracks. It's a perfect
song.
>> It's an amazing song,
>> but it's like the slippery nature of
art, you know? It's just like sometimes
>> Yeah. So, why why would something that
good
just, you know, there's something
>> I don't know. the the week it came out
was 911 or something.
>> Well, you know what my fear is? My fear
is that he got trapped up in the music
business side of it and they just
decided not to promote him or something,
you know, he ran a foul with the music
company or something. I
>> It just doesn't make sense that a guy
who can make a song that good, if you
can make that song that good, you can
make a ton of songs. You just think so.
>> Yeah. You just need the right people
with you.
>> Yeah. He had the voice. Always do that.
>> The voice, the sound, the the the soul
to his his music, the way he sang that
part. I'm a man.
>> Yeah. Hey.
>> Oh my god. It's so good. It's so good.
It just it's
a very difficult thing to capture and
even capturing it only once doesn't
ensure a long career of getting it
right. of finding that thing.
>> Well,
yeah, we were talking about that a
little bit a while ago. You know, that
that first blush when you realize you
can do it because you've never done it
before.
>> Yeah. you know, when you cross that
particular
threshold, that's an that's an amazing
transformation, I guess, in a in an
artist's uh the way he grows because
until you actually do it, it's all just
a dream, you know. Um I mean, I I had
grown up writing songs. They, you know,
they weren't great songs. I mean, I kind
of knew it. I I was watching all the
people I loved. I'm talking about from
being four or five years old all the way
through growing up and you're you know
things happen Elvis
uh Mottown and Beatles and all these
things happen and wow you really like
all that and meanwhile you're having the
dream of
being in music somehow.
Um, but you never really know if you're
going to be able to do that or not,
>> right?
>> I mean, this this sort of spreads out in
a lot of strange ways in entertainment.
I mean, I I I kind of make it similar to
what what if you're a baseball player
and you dream of growing up and getting
to the major leagues, right? And
somebody becomes Willie Mays,
>> right?
>> And a lot of people don't, you know, and
there's you just don't know. There's
that realization. I mean, for Willie,
actually, he was it was slow. If you
read about him, him and D Roer were kind
of, you know, D Roer could see it.
Willy's kind of Yeah. Um,
so if you're lucky enough and you become
Willie Mays, I mean, God bless you,
right? But there is that for most of us
that moment that, well, sorry kid, you
know, you you just you're average, but
we don't need average.
>> Right.
>> Right. And that just happens a lot.
>> Uh, in music, there was people like me.
Well, when when the four people that
became Credence
sort of got together in uh 1967 after I
got off active duty
and we okay, we're going to go for
broke. Yeah. Okay. We'll have a
democracy.
Yeah. We'll vote on everything.
Yeah. We'll all write songs and
everything. Right. Okay.
One of the things that happened going
along those lines. I would show up at
the rehearsal,
you know, because we at that point we
started, we said, "We got to do this all
the time if we're ever going to get any
good." So, every day during the week,
we'd meet at noon or actually a little
before that, maybe 11, and sit and talk.
And then noon was rehearsal time. Um,
and so I'd say, "Okay, anybody got any
songs?" and people started looking down
you. All right. Well, look, I got
something and we'd work on my song,
right? I mean, we're just sort of
getting organized. I've just come off
active duty. I've been away from the
world, you might say. Uh, then next day,
same thing, you know, at home, I'd work
on some stuff.
Anybody got any songs?
Kind of every I mean, it was the
weirdest quiet. A week later, you know,
same thing.
And finally I just well look I've been
you know I began to feel this thing
inside that
I got to push. I mean I got I I think I
can do this. And so eventually I I got
the idea.
The songs I'm working on aren't quite
there. How about if we take an old song
and I'll just trick it up like
psychedelicize it because I I'll pick a
song I already know is good. It's got
good stuff in it. And that's what I did
with Suzie Q. It just kind of really
arranged it and had all this cool stuff
going on. It wasn't something I wrote.
It kind of relieved me of the pressure
of having to do that
and was able to just hey just the that
blank page turned into a different
rainbow full of all nobody can fault me
because it's not my song right did all
this great stuff this cool musical stuff
to it. Um,
it got it. The whole point was to get
that tape on a local underground station
that was actually playing unpublished
tapes, you know, by certain bands. The
most famous one you ever heard about was
there was a tape of Janice Joplain
singing Hesitation Blues and Yorma's
playing guitar, but in the background
somebody's typing their term paper. It
was done in their kitchen,
>> right?
>> And so they would, it was just a
amateur unauthorized thing, but they
played it on this one station. It became
a hit on that station. People requested
it. There were a couple other bands that
had tapes like that.
>> And you could hear the typewriter in the
background.
>> Yeah. Going Yeah. Yeah. She's singing
Hesitation Blues.
>> Wow.
>> Wow.
>> So that became the Let's do that. let's
do an end run around record companies
and just bring the thing straight to the
station. Well, they loved Suzie Q. They
started playing it probably eight times
a day. Each different disc jockey would
play it. It's eight minutes and 20
seconds long or whatever, right? And
that was really the true beginning. Um
finished that album.
My songwriting was,
you know, wasn't great. It was
competent, but
somewhere right after
uh the album came out, oh, I I wanted to
make that point that everybody had ample
opportunity to write a song and it just
kind of wasn't coming. I would show up
at the at the rehearsals,
well, anybody got a song, you know, and
and everybody got real quiet. And so I
said, well, look, okay, let's work on
this. And I I began to
realize inside that it was going to be
up to me. It wasn't
It wasn't
I want to control everything. it was I
got to start rowing this boat or we're
we're gonna sink in the middle of the
ocean. So, I started pushing myself
harder and harder. Um,
the first album comes out on my birthday
um 1968. I'm 23 years old and
within sometime shortly after that, I
can't really pin down the I'm still in
the army, right? But I'm working on
getting released, getting out.
Somewhere, I think in June or July, I
don't exactly know. My honorable
discharge shows up. I open this package
that's been sitting there for a couple
days because it said official government
business. Who's that for? And I find it
was for me. It was a, you know, an
apartment house. I'm overjoyed. I mean,
this is the biggest struggle has been of
my life. Wow. Wow. Wow. I turned a
little cartwheel on the lawn because I
want to remember that I turned the
cartwheel and ran in the house and
picked up my guitar and started
playing these chords that are somewhat
like Beethoven.
Oh, I start strumming this beat.
I start hearing this chorus.
See, left. The first thing I said was
left a good job in the city. That was
getting out of the army.
Wow. Working for the man every night and
day. Wow. What is this? Eventually, I
arrive at this thing where I say,
"Rolling, rolling." Oh, I like that.
rolling
rolling on the river. It's
starting to be beyond
me,
>> out of me. Right?
>> I look in my book because I said, "What
is this thing about? What am I doing
here?" The very first thing I had
written in my little book of song titles
was Proud Mary. It's the actual first
line, first thing. I looked at that and
I said,
"Wow, this is about Proud Mary's a river
boat. This is a a boat named Proud Mary.
That's what we're doing here." And I
finished the song, right? I mean, it was
kind of Mark Twain.
Uh
>> kind of Jimmy Stewart, Gary Cooper, you
know, uh
had a little bit of kind of gospel
flavor and the old South in it. It's
Wow.
When I got done, which was about an
hour, I was about an hour from when I'd
opened my honorable discharge. I'm
actually holding
the the little yellow tablet I've been
writing on.
John, you've written the classic. I
realized that this song was
I had evolved. It was way better than
anything I'd ever done before, you know.
And so those meetings I'd been having
going to see the band and was anybody
got anything and no one ever did and I'd
show my little piece of something I was
working on. That kind of led,
can I say it? To the confidence
to do something really great by
just doing it right. And the knowledge I
mean I had I was self-aware. I'm looking
at this, Proud Mary, and it's it's got
Americana in it, although I don't think
I had a word then. It's got I knew it
was Mark Twain in the river and right
all this soulful stuff.
>> And wow, this for sure is the best thing
I'd ever done. I knew it was a great
song. And then the next re God, I hope I
get to do this again
because you just don't know. Right.
Right.
>> But that that was
>> a bolt of lightning and inspiration
charged up from the discharge.
>> Yep.
>> Right.
>> Yeah. But but yes, and and something led
me to be better than I was.
>> Wow.
>> I mean, I I think what my point was it
was kind of the Willie Mays thing. I
never knew if I would be able to do that
or not.
Right.
>> Right. you you're going along. You're
just plunking along clubs, whatever,
learning a chord here and there,
learning something off a record,
hoping you have a career in music
because you like music.
Me, I because my mother had focused had
kind of pointed out songwriters.
Um, it put me in that realm. It put it
it it it
made me at least realize that that was
one of the functions of music. That's
that's another story I could tell you. I
don't know if you want to hear that.
>> I want to hear every story that that
that's a that's a fantastic story though
because that that that you just getting
that notice that you've been relieved
and you're no longer in active duty.
You've got an honorable discharge.
You're free. And then the inspiration
comes and you write your greatest song
of all time like that. Yep.
>> Or at least the greatest song to that
moment and realize this can be this can
happen. You really have it. You really
have it cuz you don't know until you try
and
>> you don't know till it happens.
>> Yeah. You don't know.
>> You know until Willie Mays one day did
something on the field, right?
>> He didn't know.
>> Right.
>> And there was a point I as I alluded to
I've read about D. brochure knew when he
saw him and Willie wasn't so sure yet.
>> Yeah, that's crazy. That's crazy. Bad
Moon Rising is another great fantastic
song. Another huge favorite of mine. But
uh also because it's in one of my
all-time favorite movies, American
Werewolf in London.
>> Yeah,
>> that scene where that song that must
have been cool to have that song play in
that movie.
It's very cool to me now. At the I don't
even know if I saw the movie at the time
it came out.
>> Um that was during the time I was still,
you know,
away from music and kind of angry and
>> pissed off about my situation. So when
something would get done with my music,
it kind of made me mad because nobody
asked me.
>> Oh, really?
>> Yeah.
>> Oh, right. Because you didn't have the
rights to it. Yep. Oh wow.
Still phenomenal song. Phenomenal song.
Did So did you write all the songs?
>> I wrote all the songs from Credence.
>> Wow.
>> Until the the last album, the seventh
album. That was basically a result of
the guys saying, "We want to, you know,
there was a big band meeting. We want to
write the songs and we demand that we
get to write the songs and sing the
songs and make up our own musical
parts."
then been resisting that because I just
I thought it was going to really I
literally thought it would be career
suicide, you know, change everything
now, right?
>> Yeah. Cuz
>> Well, here's here's another part of it.
You're
>> you're struggling in, you know, the the
early days of your career and the all
your life getting to that point, you're
trying to figure out what works,
>> right?
>> Right. I mean, it's just everyone goes
through that because clearly you don't
know what works yet. I haven't haven't
figured it out. And one day when some
stuff starts happening and well that's
how you do it. This and this and this
this works and I I got very good at
that.
>> And you had put in that work and they
hadn't so they weren't really
contributing and I they must have gotten
resentful that you were the one who
wrote all these big hits and eventually
they're like we want to try. We're
Credence too. Right.
>> Well especially because two of them had
never written a song in their life.
>> Oh that's crazy. And then they wanted to
write a song for Credence. While
Credence was huge.
>> Yeah. I mean, there's a bit of
what's the word? Boulder dash in to
that. I mean, it's Wow. But maybe you
should, you know, rehearse a little
prayers. I mean, I've been writing songs
since I was eight. Not that they were
jumped in. They could have jumped in
when in the beginning.
>> Yeah.
>> When you were writing all the songs and
they weren't coming up with anything. If
they did, you probably would have did
their songs as well if they went on a
similar path.
>> It would have been like Yeah. Um,
my songs weren't that good at that time,
but they were,
how can I say, they were maybe better
than average. They weren't great songs
yet. They were they were album songs or
something. Right.
>> Right.
>> But what I'm getting at is that the
other guys were there was no songs. So,
um,
that's that's that thing in
I I keep using the Mooy Maze, you know,
metaphor, if that's what it is. Uh, you
know, that example at some point you're
you're
you're working with the elements in the
field that you love and then you realize
how to put it together and to make it
happen if you're lucky. And then comes
the time when you actually make
something that's good, right? And that I
mean, but that I can't think of anyone
that the first song they ever wrote boom
was uh a Maria or something, you know,
>> right? I mean it's you know so um I I
just thought it was a journey and I mean
I had been on the journey myself and
seen it come but I think now I look at
it I was excuse me I was probably
destined you know it was what I loved
and that was what was calling me.
>> Yeah.
>> I mean I
that that was my my motivation the whole
time since I was a child. I just loved
it and wanted to do that whatever it
was.
>> Well, that's why it worked.
>> Yeah.
>> You put in the work and you loved it and
you worked at it and you tried to get it
better and you also got inspiration. You
were also open to that inspiration.
>> It's just funny that the band members
didn't contribute until the seventh
album and they wanted to jump in.
It's kind of crazy, but understandable.
Well, I mean, it's human nature to be
resentful, especially if you got a a
huge band and one guy is the lead singer
and that guy's also writing all the
songs.
>> Yeah. I Well, I walked around for
uh many months, you know, mulling over
this whole thing because right after
that meeting, shortly after that, my
brother Tom decided
he just left.
You know, even though I kind of gave in
to all the demands, okay, we'll do it
that I could see that the band was going
to disintegrate unless I acquiesced,
right? I mean, it was up until then, I'd
managed to keep it. Don't do that. Don't
do it's going to wreck us. Uh, so when I
agreed, I mean, it was literally a
couple months later Tom left. And so
now, oh god, what's going to happen now?
So I I didn't know if I was just going
to go n call it quits or
the the image in my mind was of when
Elvis got taken by the colonel just kind
of pulled out of the other guys and they
left them in alerts you might say.
That's it's the way it looked to me,
right? It's like Elvis got all new guys
and just kind of and and it was readily
apparent because I had already seen what
the Elvis comeback special the the part
where they sat around in a circle and
did the old songs and he had the old
guys Scotty and Bill and or maybe Bill
was gone by then but um JD Fontana or D
J D Fontana um
and it was just apparent that that was
the best thing. Everybody loved that
part of his special. Most people just
for forget that anything else was on
that thing other than Elvis singing
those songs and that that sort of was in
the back of my well maybe they deserve a
shot. Maybe they should, you know, maybe
I should do this. And so that's kind of
why I went forward with it.
it almost like flipping a coin like well
the the odds I I think
my own sense tells me this isn't going
to work but maybe they deserve a chance
so I kind of went at it blindly that way
like that
>> what was it like in the studio when they
started bringing the songs
>> well that's I mean that's it I mean
everyone can hear that all of us can you
know you just the album's called Marty
Gro
And in the press it was murdered, you
know, Rolling Stones said, "This is the
worst album ever made by a major group."
And I read that and I said, "I know." I
mean, I literally I felt that it wasn't
like I was trying to defend it. It was,
you know, it was just
>> How did the band react to that?
>> Here's the deal.
instead of going, "Yeah, that was a
mistake." Instead, they said, "He made
me do it." And so,
yeah, they said, "I made them do it."
Whereas that was their idea. Of course,
I didn't want to do that. Um,
and after that, I just, you know,
I think we did a we did a tour. Oh,
right. We did a tour. Um,
one by one their songs dropped out of
the set. The songs that they had done on
Marty Groth, the other two guys. Yeah.
They I don't want to sing that anymore.
And so we of course went back to Proud
Mary and Fortunate Son and all that. And
there was a point that I could tell that
the fans were kind of upset with this
whole premise. And so I
>> which whole premise what way what
>> of them singing songs and
kind of struggling along with equal time
for everybody.
>> Oh I see. Yeah.
>> Right.
>> Yeah.
>> And so
finally it was time to I there there
wasn't enough there wasn't any way to
put it back together that I could see.
>> Right.
>> That was it was beyond me.
Now, in later later years that, you
know, I'm a much older guy. I mean,
there were, you know, there's some
decisions that uh I made, one of them
was the decision to
uh not be in the movie Woodstock.
They sent a tape of the band
doing Bad Moon Rising. It was okay. But
what had happened at Woodstock was the
Grateful Dead was on before us. Grateful
Dead had all taken LSD.
It's we were supposed to be on at 8:00,
but it's now 2:00, 2:30 in the morning
by the time we get Grateful Dead goes on
kind of loses their way, but they're on
stage for an hour and a half or
something with nothing going on. So that
poor audience that's been through rain
and all the rest and muddy and they just
they just crashed a half a million str
just boom, you know, and that's what I
get, right? We come running out on stage
and and we playing a few songs and all I
see is sleeping people
and eventually
>> the last I think 20 minutes of our set
finally got them up. We warmed them up
for Janice. That's the way I always say,
you know, they got going again. But that
was a that was a struggle all through
that. So I get sent and it was a it was
a bad taste in my mouth about that
evening because every we'd gone to so
much trouble and we at that moment we
were certainly the number one band in
the US and probably on our way to being
number one in the world. And so I just,
you know, here's this kind of ordinary
tape of Bad Moon and I just thought I
don't this doesn't help us. It doesn't
further us at all. Um, nah, I'm going to
pass. And by the way, the Grateful Dead
is not in Woodstock either. I didn't
really recognate
dead was in Woodstock, right? Um,
>> it's probably unusable. So, if there'd
been an older guy around us, a manager
that was like 50 instead of me with my
bad taste about the evening, the older
guy might have said, "Hey, you know,
your version of Suzie Q live, even
though those people were sleeping, the
band was cooking. You know, you guys
played good. You can't hardly see
anything anyway." That crappy old He
said, "But that recording's good. Maybe
we should demand that look, you put us
in the movie and give us eight minutes,
not two minutes or by then it was
probably 15 minutes long, you know. Um,
I think that was a decision that could
probably I could reassess, you know, if
it if it was someone else, but that's
not what was on my plate at the time.
Uh, I was only offered bad move. I, you
know, and at the time I felt I was right
because we went on and
did great. And by the way, the band
broke up before Woodstock came out
anyhow. So, it kind of was a mute point.
>> Did it feel better for you when you were
on your own? Did Did you like that
better? Were you It was just the John
Frog band. You didn't have to have all
those guys and all the [ __ ]
Well, you're asking a, you know, we're
all human beings and we've got a lot of
years behind us. Um, if you're asking me
right now, yeah, because I play in a
band with my sons.
>> Oh, that's awesome.
>> You know, and Yep.
>> That's awesome.
>> And I don't know, there might be a
picture of that somewhere. Um,
and so and all the other guys in the
band are their age. Oh wow.
>> And so
it, how can I say it? You don't you
don't have a whole bunch of people
trying to prove something like their
record deal or you know
>> because you asked the question kind of
caught me by surprise. After well after
Credence I didn't play for a long time.
>> How long?
>> But the first band huh?
>> How long how long did you not play for?
I went on tour in ' 86 with uh
a a bunch of hired hands they call it,
right? Studio guys. And that was that
was it was behind number one. I didn't
play any Credence era songs.
>> I was so mad at my situation.
>> I just played new songs.
>> Wow.
Everyone on the left, that's Shane.
That's me. That's my son Tyler. That's
my daughter Kelsey.
And then that's Jesse Wilson back there,
our bass player.
>> That's awesome.
>> And so um yeah, and there's a right then
that might be a moment in Chuglan where
we all do a riff together and all that
and it just so cool to all be standing
there.
>> That's amazing.
>> So yeah. Um, I mean, you know, don't get
me wrong, the beginnings of Credence was
magical and wonderful, right? I mean, it
really it truly looked and planned for
your whole life. Um, and it stayed that
way for about a year, I think. And then
other stuff that I never understood. I I
mean, it was beyond it was unpleasant
and I didn't understand why. Right. So
after that it was it was that was
difficult. Then when I first started
playing again um in ' 86 and also and
much more in 97 after Blue Moon Swamp
came out and I had a series of bands
that were
I can say trying to put people together
parts from here and there and there. So
it kind of never really was one
solidified thing and you you would find
that
a lot of people had
personal agendas you might say you know
they were working on their own career
and all that and there was sort of
believe it or not even at that level
different jealousies and things again
there I was I could I could sense it
sometimes people were jealous you know
like oh my god When you see that
picture, there's no jealous,
>> right?
>> See, I mean, this is really fun for me
now.
>> Well, that is the problem with so many
bands is the conflicting personalities.
It's always a miracle to me that any
band stays together and that they could
stay together like the Stones where
they're still touring now after all
these years.
>> The Stones are a lesson in
how everyone should be because we've all
heard the stories about the Stones. We
know there's problems here and there and
everywhere and all that. Yet, they rose
above that. They just decided that, you
know what? What? Yeah. Okay. Well, I
don't like that guy over there tonight,
but I'm just going to do this and
they're all brothers when they're out
there doing that.
>> Yeah.
>> And that's great.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, there's I mean, there's times,
let's say, in war or whatever where you
have to kind of subjugate your personal
stuff for the greater good.
>> Yeah.
>> Right. And that kind of what they do,
the Stones, and that God bless them.
>> I think the thing is everybody wants to
be the man. And when you got so many
egos and there's one guy like you who's
writing all the songs, all these other
people, they're just like they feel
less, you know, and they get resentful.
>> Yep. I think that's
pretty normal human nature. And then
that has to be dealt with.
>> Yeah.
Sometimes you can't though. You know,
some people can't be reasoned with. Some
people just are they're not rational.
They see things in a distorted lens,
especially if they're not the people
that created everything, but yet they've
been along for the ride. They don't feel
like they're getting what they deserve.
>> Mhm.
>> That's what it seems like.
>> I wanted to tell you a story about how I
got into this in the first place.
>> Okay.
Um, I told you about my mom noticing
uh the music coming out of me. One day
she brought me home from nursery school
where she was one of the helper
teachers, I guess, one of the moms, you
know, of the staff. She brought me home
and sat me down on a little chair. It
was now I look back, it was a little
ceremony. She had a little yellow
record, a kids record. And it basically
what she did was she played both sides
of this little record. One side was Oh,
Susanna and the other side was Camptown
Races. Doo da da. You know that one. And
then she asked me, "Well, do you like
this music?" I said, "Yeah, man. These
are cool songs." Or whatever a kid says.
"I really like these." She says, "Well,
I'm going to play them again, Johnny."
She plays both songs and she says, "Do
you know that Stephen Foster is the man
that wrote both of these songs?"
What do you mean, Mu? He said, "Well,
Stephen Foster is a real person that
wrote this music and I wanted you to
know that these are his wonderful songs
and that people do write songs." And
then she gave me the record that kind of
became my little possession, right? And
I've reflected on that moment in my life
for I mean I used to tell people why did
she do that? What in the world was she
thinking? Right? And all through the
years
uh with that I was living at home with
my mom. You know, there'd be somebody on
TV. There's Irving Berlin. And I go,
"Yeah, mom. Hey, he's a songwriter." Or
she let me know Hogi Carmichael was one
of her favorites. So he became one of my
favorites, right? And of course on into
the rock and roll era, as you notice
that the Beatles, Lennon and McCartney
were writing these songs. I mean, it it
just became a a thing, a part of me. And
it all started back there with my mom
and Stephen Foster. And number one, he
was a great songwriter. So that lltilt
that sort of kind of songwriting he's
also very corny
>> you know I mean that that voice that
personality
certainly became
it it got contributed it got lent to me
uh through the the records the
recordings because Stephen didn't make
any records as far as I know um and
those songs just sort
got infiltered into my personality. I
mean, my mom, put it this way, I I think
I even talked it over with mom. I I feel
like Stephen Foster could have written
Proud Mary. It seems like that
territory.
>> Yeah. Wow. That's awesome.
>> Right. that I don't know what my my mom
was giving me a gift,
>> you know, and that you you just never
know how powerful those little moments
with your kids are, but that that was a
big one for me.
>> That's awesome. That's awesome. Listen,
John, it's been an honor having you on.
Thank you very much. I'm a gigantic fan.
So, for me, it was a real pleasure to
get to talk to you. The story is
fantastic.
>> Thank you very much. And, uh, you're on
tour. Tell everybody where they could
see you.
>> Oh, wow. Well, you know, we are the
Legacy Tour. You may know I've just
re-recorded a lot of my old songs from
the Credence time and I'm having a ball.
We're just all over.
>> Look at that.
>> Well, there you go.
>> Wow.
>> That's a picture from back in the day,
of course.
>> What a cool album, too. Does it really
look like that?
>> Yeah.
>> Oh, nice.
That's sick. I love it. Beautiful. Thank
you, sir. Really, thank you very much.
It was awesome. Bye, everybody.