[@ChrisWillx] No One is Ready for This Coming War - Navy SEAL Andy Stumpf

Link: https://youtu.be/QvxHBtYsDig

Duration: 124 min

Short Summary

Former Navy SEAL Andy Stump draws on BUD/S training—a program that typically starts with 180 candidates and graduates only 18—to illustrate how elite performers often fail due to mental overwhelm rather than physical limitations. He introduces the "chunking" technique for managing challenges by focusing on immediate steps, and explores the paradox that the psychological strengths rewarded in professional settings (discipline, grit, endurance) can quietly damage the very relationships that matter most at home.

Key Quotes

1. "I actually don't want to work with somebody who is fearless because that either means you're not paying attention or you're a sociopath or a psychopath. Neither of which are a good model for that world." (00:44:47)
2. "The special operations community is not comprised of people that put a cape on and go to work. They are very normal people that are tasked with doing some exceptional things at times, but they suffer from the same ailments of life that everybody else does." (00:46:26)
3. "Until you view yourself as the author of your life, you'll be the victim of it." (01:14:10)
4. "What you are praised for in public, you often pay for in private." (01:26:44)

Detailed Summary

BUD/S Training: Attrition and Mental Overwhelm

Navy SEAL BUD/S training serves as the episode's anchor point, with former SEAL Andy Stump drawing on his experience as both a trainee and instructor to explain why candidates wash out. His BUD/S class started with approximately 180 candidates and graduated only 18 originals, with attrition rates averaging 75% in summer months and 80-90% in winter—higher winter attrition results from greater exposure to elements rather than tougher curriculum changes.

• The primary failure point at BUD/S is mental rather than physical; trainees cannot maintain the required mental state (cold, tired, hungry, in physical pain) as long as anticipated.
• "The muscle that fails is between the ears, not below the neck," according to Stump—a mental rather than physical limitation dooms most candidates.
• Elite athletes like D1 players and marathon runners often fail early BUD/S swimming tests despite superior physical conditioning.
• Hell Week occurs in the fifth week of training, lasting five days from Sunday through Friday, with most quitters dropping between Sunday and Tuesday morning.
• BUD/S graduation averages 180 days; Stump's class was the last "hard" BUD/S class ever conducted before protocols changed.
• Stump returned as a BUD/S instructor for 18 months during the Global War on Terror, treating it as "the world's best laboratory on why people quit" given the millions spent studying training outcomes.
• Attention to detail training involves inspecting equipment like CO2 cartridges from 1918 life jackets, instilling discipline for executing tactics when everything falls apart.

Water Evolutions and the Diving Test

The episode details specific BUD/S water tests, revealing their true purpose often differs from surface appearances. The diving test was 20 minutes long with 4 attempts total—two on one day, two on the next—designed not for actual diving skill but as a test of stress management and following procedure regardless of circumstances.

• The 50-meter underwater swim exists primarily to scare students, not for practical necessity; Stump states they don't believe one would actually need to perform it on the job.
• Students can signal for instructor rescue during any water evolution, but using that signal results in failing for not following procedure.
• The most common way people die in SEAL training is drowning; the last student death post-hell week was from fluid in the lungs (pulmonary edema).
• BUD/S evolutions maintain a 1:1 instructor-to-student ratio for safety, with half the class watching from poolside while instructors are in the water.
• Most people pass the diving test on their third attempt; the speaker credits passing on his third try to chunking—accepting one problem at a time and returning to crawling instead of being overwhelmed by all malfunctions at once.

The Chunking Solution for Managing Overwhelm

Stump introduces "chunking" as the core psychological tool for managing overwhelm, both in training contexts and civilian life. After understanding that time perception drives quit rates, he abandoned physical tools and instead engaged students in conversation, redirecting focus to the present moment rather than total remaining duration.

• Chunking breaks goals into microscopic steps, focusing only on the immediate next action rather than total distance to the finish.
• The speaker used tactical deception with struggling trainees—setting his watch to an incorrect day and time—to prevent trainees from fixating on total remaining duration.
• Trainees who fixate on how much time remains experience psychological overwhelm that accelerates quitting behavior.
• Former BUD/S students who quit report regretting the decision decades later and wishing they had seen it through to graduation.
• When crawl equipment malfunctions, accepting one problem at a time prevents the cascade of abandonment that overwhelms struggling trainees.

Combat Tactics and Fear Management

The episode covers critical tactical principles that separate survival from failure in combat situations. Stump emphasizes that cover stops bullets while concealment only hides you, a distinction that has proven fatal for combatants who confuse bushes for cover. He explains the fastest way out of an ambush is to move—either punching through or flanking—with indecision and paralysis representing the worst possible tactical decision.

• Staying still when ambushed results in death; remaining in place when ambushed leads to being found and killed.
• Indecision and paralysis is the worst tactical decision; the fastest way out of an ambush is to move.
• Cover stops bullets; concealment only hides you—combatants have died confusing bushes (concealment) for cover.
• Emotional control is critical in life-and-death situations—trainees must be able to detach emotions from decision-making and function under stress.
• Stump prefers working with people who experience fear and manage it over fearless individuals, whom he considers either unobservant or sociopathic/psychopathic.
• Military raids avoided full moon nights due to excessive illumination compromising operational security, as enemies could see operators as clearly as operators could see them with night vision equipment.

Special Operations Culture and Its Costs

Stump describes his community as "exceptionally average people" tasked with doing exceptional things, rejecting the superhuman mythology often attached to special operations. He candidly discusses the systemic relationship damage that accompanies operational life, noting that in special operations, the job always suffers last while the family suffers first as operators prioritize their identity and performance on a pedestal while everything else deteriorates.

• The divorce rate in special operations hovers at 80-85% (estimated based on experience), with 50% of professional athlete divorces happening in the first year after retirement.
• Stump spent 270 days a year on the road in parallel lives, illustrating the operational tempo that strains family relationships.
• He struggles with identity deceleration when transitioning to civilian life, as the special operations identity provides structure and meaning that civilian existence often lacks.
• Veterans before 2001 were often the last people to tell anyone about their service, representing a different era where reverence for the military community emerged after 9/11.
• The speaker describes staying in a toxic relationship approximately 10 years longer than he should have due to an inability to quit rooted in his Special Operations identity.

High Performer Psychology and Relationship Traps

The episode explores how high performers are particularly vulnerable to the trap of psychological strength, which is rewarded in gym (discipline), business (grit), and public (composure). Stump argues relationships require attunement, not endurance; people who override discomfort will rationalize repeated hurt and stay longer than they should. His core message: "What you are praised for in public, you often pay for in private."

• High performers stay in damaged relationships longer because their psychological strength allows them to tolerate pain that others would leave from sooner.
• The qualities that make someone formidable in the arena (work/performance) can quietly make them miserable in their own living room (home/relationships).
• If a child's needs weren't noticed and sadness was ignored, adult them believes "if I am not loved, I just need to work harder."
• Jordan achieved approximately "10,000 hours of ignoring your own needs" through childhood conditioning that equated suffering with connection.
• Many things that seemed most important ended up inconsequential because insufficient thought was given to why they were wanted.
• Only a very small number of people who reach success declare it a "false peak" and question if the view is worth the climb.

Life Philosophy: Suffering, Resilience, and Knowing When to Quit

Stump reframe failures as "tuition payments," with some being "relatively inexpensive" and others having "taken him to the brink of bankruptcy." He identifies a "fine line between resilience and suppression" and argues people often "confuse suppression for strength." The pursuit of an easy life is a mistake; the ability to suffer through the grind is what life is about.

• There is no hack for hard work; while you can optimize systems like email and business processes, effort cannot be bypassed.
• People value most the goals they work hardest for, especially those they initially question whether they can achieve.
• Shared suffering with friends transforms painful experiences into something enjoyable; doing difficult things alone versus with others differs significantly.
• Falling slightly short of goals is preferable to destroying oneself through an unwillingness to quit.
• The single most important lesson from SEAL teams: be cautious and know what you are willing to die for, because not everything is worth it.
• When seeing successful people, the first response shouldn't be envy—often it should be pity, considering what they had to go through or at what cost.

Military Operations and Emerging Technology

The episode addresses how drone warfare emerged as an unforeseen kinetic threat, with commercial-grade drones like DJI models being weaponized for targeted detonations in conflicts like Ukraine. Stump expresses concern about AI integration progressing toward fully autonomous lethal systems, distinguishing three phases: human in the loop (AI-assisted), human on the loop (human overwatching), and human out of the loop (fully autonomous).

• The US accomplished military objectives in Afghanistan in about 90 days but stayed for 20 years, with the official withdrawal on August 30, 2021.
• Stump remains skeptical of "Ghost Murmur" heartbeat detection technology claiming to identify individuals from 40 miles away, calling it unrealistic internet fodder.
• He opposes outsourcing military functions to private military contractors, believing the flag should be issued on uniforms rather than rented, as contractors create allegiance to the biggest paycheck rather than the nation.

Operation Neptune Spear and Military Ethics

Stump discusses the operation to capture/kill Osama bin Laden, named Operation Neptune Spear, noting that stories from the mission diverge at the stairs between the second and third floor where very few people were present. Rob O'Neal encountered bin Laden on the third floor, shot him, and before debrief, the people on that floor collectively decided what to include and exclude from their accounts.

• The accounts diverge at the stairs between the second and third floor where very few people were present, creating a bottleneck in the narrative.
• Those on the third floor collectively decided what to include and exclude from their accounts before debrief, introducing potential for narrative construction.
• Stump draws a hard line against shooting a dead enemy combatant in the face, calling it mutilation that creates reciprocity risks for American personnel abroad.
• He argues the US needs to maintain ethical standards to remain a beacon to the world.

SERE Training and Historical Military Context

SERE school (Survival, Escape, Resistance, Evasion) involves about one week of classroom instruction heavily based on Vietnam-era tactics and the Hanoi Hilton captivity experience, conducted at Warner Springs east of San Diego. Vietnam POWs used a 5x5 tap code alphabet system to communicate during captivity, demonstrating ingenuity under captivity conditions.

• SLA Marshall conducted a WWII study claiming many soldiers did not fire their weapons at enemies, which influenced military training to shift from circular targets to human silhouette targets.
• Marshall's methodology was later questioned when researchers found inconsistencies in his data collection, raising questions about foundational training assumptions.
• Escape and evasion simulations last approximately 2.5 days before participants are caught, followed by "slappy camp" involving physical handling and simulated interrogation in small kennels.

Teaching, Impact, and Legacy

Andy Stump wants to give people a foundation and framework to attack whatever is going on in their life so they can "suffer better." He believes teaching someone something or giving them a tool to attack a problem is more rewarding than buying nice things. Approximately a dozen people have reached out to say they chose not to kill themselves because of something they heard on the podcast.

• If tools and frameworks work in the military's pressure cooker environment, they will help people crush goals in their personal and professional lives.
• Stump resisted writing a book for years partly because other SEALs had already written books and he felt self-conscious.
• He worked through the impact of his relationship struggles with his children, demonstrating that processing difficult material can itself be teachable.
• The episode's core insight: psychological strengths rewarded in professional settings (discipline, grit, endurance) can quietly damage the very relationships that matter most at home.

Full Transcript

Show transcript

I'm going to play a little trick for the
first time ever in this studio to make
you feel a little bit more at home. So,
you're a man who operated largely in the
dark when you are doing raids when you
would have been operating. I imagine
some stuff would have been by day, but
other stuff would have been by night.
>> Unless there was an extremely compelling
reason to do so exclusively at night.
>> Mhm.
>> Oh, nice. Here we go. Transitioning
evening
>> and now we're in a blood moon and
>> usually didn't go out at full moon. Oh,
okay. Because there's too much
visibility
>> illumination. So, you know, even though
you can see at night with night vision
goggles, we constantly were looking at
the illumination, the external
illumination, because at some point
people can almost see you as well as you
can see them with the technological
advantage. So, we would avoid the high
illumination nights and obviously
aviators and things that fly that could
be backlit against those. They try to
avoid it as well. What are you surprised
by with what's happening with warfare
over the last few years? like I can't
work out whether technology is making
things more humane or more dangerous.
>> I think an equal measure of both. I've
had a lot of conversations about this
with guys during the time period that I
served. I'd never for a single second
thought about uh the danger of drone
warfare. And I don't mean drones to us
was predators or reapers or overhead
surveillance platforms that had great,
you know, sensor paws and they could
pipe stuff down and you could have the
ability to look at what they could see.
It was great for situational awareness.
I never once was concerned about
somebody essentially ordering a drone on
the internet. Not that that's how it's
being built in or made in Ukraine
specifically in Iran has some smaller
ones as well, but having that be a
kinetic option on the battlefield.
Didn't think about it a single time. And
I am glad that I am not a part of that
because I mean I have an internet
connection just like anybody else. And I
I don't go searching for those videos,
but sometimes they find you and people
running away from basically a DJI drone
that detonates.
>> Mhm.
>> Uh
the hard pass, the hardest of passes
being involved in that. I read that
field medics are not getting the same
sort of trauma training that they used
to because the kind of injuries that
soldiers are getting on the battlefield
are totally different now.
Well, towards the tail end of
Afghanistan and Iraq, it was very IED
heavy. So, it would be explosive wounds,
which are really gnarly. Um, not that
any kind of wound is particularly great.
Um,
but it just it just tears things to
pieces. And most of the stuff I'm seeing
with the drone warfare is kind of the
same. It's explosive base. So, maybe
>> I don't know.
>> I'm not sure. It might be more
aggressive. It might might be able to be
more powerful. I don't know. But uh
yeah. Well, what have you been surprised
by? Would you have been able to predict
the direction that warfare was going to
go in?
>> No, because at the same time, like let's
take Ukraine as an example. At the same
time that they at the cutting edge of
what's going on with electronics, there
are videos of guys running through
trenches, fighting at distances between
you and I, like just putting AKs around
a corner, which by the way, kind of a
fan of clearing a corner that way. Like,
hello, is anybody here?
not advisable honestly. I mean maybe
like PE know a high-risisk strategy.
>> It is controversial. I'm not here to
tell anybody how to party. So you do
you. But I mean so we're talking back to
World War I and World War II, but at the
same time the leading edge of
electronics in the same battle space.
What? So it's this blend of innovation
and evolution and then humans getting it
on like eye to eye.
>> Do you think we're overhyping AI in
warfare? because each technological
development is basically touted as the
end of one era and the beginning of
something different.
>> I don't know. The way it's been
described to me is that there's phases
that AI is coming in.
>> Um right now there's a human in the loop
meaning a human in making the final
decision maybe assisted by AI. Then
there's human on the loop meaning kind
of just overwatching the AI. And then
the phase that I think terrifies
everybody is human out of the loop. And
I think that's where a lot of the stuff
when it came to mix claude. Is it
anthropic? I think that I want to
believe that they stood their ground.
Um, and again, I only have information
based off what I could consume on the
internet, which you know, take all that
with a grain of salt, but it seems like
they stood their ground morally from a
intelligence perspective or the ability
for mass surveillance and then getting
to that point where humans being off the
loop. Cuz if we take humans off the
loop, I don't know how you combat that
as an adversary without doing exactly
the same thing.
>> Because if it can think and make
decisions faster than any human that's
any of those earlier phases, then you're
already at a tactical disadvantage.
>> And then we end up working for robots
for our daily water ration. And I don't
think that's great. I don't want
Terminator to become a documentary,
which we might be on that trajectory.
>> Yeah. I uh coming from a SEAL
background, how do you feel about AI
basically being involved in life and
death decisions for operators? I don't
know how it would be at the level that
we operated at. I mean broadly to speak
broadly and again I am dated so I don't
know exactly how they are interfacing AI
right now. The job was to at some point
a lot of other entities would find fix
locate an individual fix them in a
location and our job was to get to that
location and then finish and that
doesn't mean kill sometimes it does.
because it largely depends on the
actions that the individual would take
but solve the problem which means cross
the threshold of a door somewhere.
>> I don't know how AI does that for you. I
think AI can do a lot of stuff
especially in the electronic spectrum.
Um I mean I don't know. I mean I guess
you could you know those uh Rathon dogs
or whatever they are the robotic type. I
mean maybe it gets to that level and
maybe that removes the operator from
that or they're controlling him like the
the drone operators are now. I don't
think it's at that level yet.
>> So I think it helps more in the planning
and analysis process than anything. But
as long as there's people still crossing
thresholds of doors,
>> I don't know how much impact AI is going
to have. Could choosing to cross the
threshold of that door or not or the
time to do it or not and targeting and
planning. Yeah.
>> The fact that that's done by a AI now
puts operators at the mercy of the
decisions that maybe humans weren't
involved in.
>> It'll never make the decision as the go
no-go criteria. It will spit like
intelligence the intelligence uh
community can present packages
and you can you know in your mission
planning process you were looking at
every phase of the operation. You're
planning mostly on contingencies but
you're looking at all of those things.
The go no go is not based on an
intelligence package. It's based on
essentially the ground force commander
saying this meets the criteria. Now
there are exceptions to that I would
say. Let's say if you are looking for
somebody and there is a trigger, a cell
phone pops up on a network and you've
been looking for that thing like that's
like hey we might need to go like right
now but other than that the decision is
going to be based off when you think it
is best suited for you and least suited
for the person that you're going after.
>> Tell me you saw this ghost murmur thing.
>> Oh, you mean how we can find heartbeats
from space?
>> Yes.
>> Yeah. I'm sure missing hikers would have
appreciated if that got used for them as
well, too.
>> You know, like I don't
>> This is the wildest [ __ ]
>> Yeah, but that's because you found it on
the internet. I saw Bigfoot on the
internet one time, too. And that doesn't
mean it's real.
>> You don't think that this is what they
did?
>> No.
>> Wow. Okay. No. Um, does it sound
awesome? Yes. Would Do I want that tech
to exist? Well, now was it from space or
was it supposedly from an aircraft?
>> Supposedly from an aircraft. Um, I do
not want to tip my hand. Again, I am
very dated, but I don't want to tick my
hand on any of the like to me, it is
essential to maintain the TTP's tactics,
techniques, and procedures. There are
ways and means that I think aviators
have to identify their location that
would be picked up by aircraft. And
probably the higher you are, the better
you would have for line of sight and
things like that.
Do I think it's capable of doing it at a
heartbeat? Maybe. But I don't think
we're there yet. I really don't. There
are other less complex ways to do that.
You mean instead of quantum
electronamics fixed to the front of an
Apache helicopter detecting a heartbeat
and getting rid of all of the gerbles
and dogs and enemies that are out there
zeroing in on this one guy from 40 miles
away to pick him up and extract him.
>> So when the episode comes out, can you
just dub me saying what you just said,
but all cuz Yes, that's exactly
>> I don't know why you think that this is
unrealistic. This just sounds fun.
Here's the thing. I want stuff like that
to be true. But can you
>> The funnest story is the truest story.
That's the way.
>> Can you imagine how pissed people would
be who had lost family members in the
back in like back country and technology
like this existed and we didn't use it
for our own people cuz we were trying to
It's like
>> we wanted we wanted to wait for this one
guy. What's he called? Like dude 44
Bravo or something. What was his code
name?
>> I don't know.
>> Dude 45 Bravo.
>> That was too good of a code name to be
honest. Or a uh a call sign. Most of
them you'll notice they're they are from
mistakes or things that the person who
the call sign is associated with are not
proud of which is exactly why they need
to be what they are. Like if you make a
galactic mistake in training and they
can associate one word to that, that's
what you're known for for the rest of
your military.
>> What was yours?
>> No, it was only aviator wise.
>> Okay. Okay. Okay.
>> I was just Andy.
>> Okay. [ __ ] [ __ ] lame. Super lame.
What are some of the most stupid ones
that you've heard?
>> Oh god. You'll hear people, you know,
when they're trying to make them up cuz,
and most of the time this is involving
alcohol, too. Being like, "Oh, yeah.
Yeah, my call sign was bone crush. I'm
like, you're 142 lbs soaking wet. Shut
the [ __ ] stuff like that." You know what
I mean? Like, you know, Reaper just
like, "Take it easy, dude. Take it
easy." You know? So, you did you think
that this ghost murmur thing, at least
the explanation of its [ __ ] and the
way that they managed to find this guy
in the middle of the desert was
something a little bit more
>> I think there are easier ways to do it.
>> Okay. And when uh when pilots eject,
it's not like they're ejecting with no
tools. So um part of you know there's
entire department like the aviators
don't maintenance the aircraft, right?
So there's people making sure that the
aircraft is good to go. There's people
making sure that survival equipment is
good to go. All of those things. So when
you first off, I've never punched out of
an aircraft. I've talked to some people
who have. It seems to be a spicy ride.
>> How so? Um, well, I had a guy on my show
who ejected at about three knots under
the speed of sound about a
So, and I might be I might be getting
this uh exact detail incorrect, but he
was doing a maneuver and was nose down
in a hornet looking at the Atlantic
Ocean rushing up and punched out. And it
basically,
how did he describe it? Took all of the
bones in his body that weren't broken
and did the opposite of that. And the
only reason he's actually alive is
because the water was so cold. He was in
the hospital for months. Keegan Gil is
his name.
>> Why would the cold water help?
>> Because it uh shunts your blood vessels.
He was going to bleed out otherwise.
>> Hang on. So the force of injecting
>> a few knots under the speed of sound
>> because the air that was that
immediately slammed into Oh, cuz it
wasn't the force of the ejection. It was
the
>> I don't think that feels good either. I
was going to say cuz people people can
get concussed I think just by doing
that.
>> Oh, I think if you do two you're done. I
think they medically retire you if you
get two ejection.
>> Oh, it'll shorten your vertebrae. I mean
it's I think you go
>> Dude, I used to be 5'11 now.
>> I think it goes zero to double digit G's
like that. Um and so yeah, he was um and
he was flying.
>> That was a real one-two punch.
>> Yeah,
>> those the jab was the ejection. He
basically said he almost got liqufied on
departure from the aircraft.
>> I'm like, okay.
>> Yeah. And then and his aircraft aircraft
just vaporized when it hit the ground.
>> Yep. Well, water.
>> Yeah. Well, the water there happened to
be I believe it was a Coast Guard vessel
nearby that his he was flying with his
boss. They were doing like some early
air combat maneuvers and he literally
he's like I initiated a maneuver outside
of the envelope that I should have put
the aircraft into a position where it
was not going to recover and can you
imagine that visual? So he was probably
like 600 m an hour and he said a second
and a half from impact. Can you imagine
that visual coming up? [ __ ] Yeah.
And then if you miss the the little
ejection hand
it didn't take the safety out. Yeah.
>> Yeah. No thank you. Hard pass.
>> Wow.
>> But when they go out not in that
situation um you have you have tools
with you. And so the ejection seat
itself has some stuff that comes with
it.
>> Like a little life raft but for existing
in a
>> for sure you you're going to have a
firearm probably. You're going to have a
radio. You might have a beacon type
system. Um maybe some food
>> probably. Yeah. Um it's not going to be
awesome. And people forget that
aviators, so that we go to the same
school, the basics your school that
aviators go to. They're specialists.
That guy was a weapon systems officer.
So he was in the back seat of an F-15, I
believe. So he wasn't flying. And I
actually don't even know if they're
pilots. My guess would be that they're
not. So the guy up front is completely
responsible for manipulating the
controls. I don't even know if they have
controls in the back. Actually remember
been around an F-15 cockpit. So he's
doing all the weapon stuff. Their world
is very high off the ground. And so I've
done a backseat ride in an F-18 and it
was I'm like this is ridiculously
uncomfortable. Like my head was bouncing
off the canopy. Um was sick for about
two days. Felt nauseous because of the
G's we were pulling. But then earlier in
my career I went to Sears school and I
was paired up with an F-18 pilot. And
you want to talk about a duck out of
water? Like how do you read this
topographical map? Like how do you Now,
to me, I'm like, "Oh, yeah, we just will
celestially navigate or this is east and
we're just going to do that." And
they're like, "Where's my airplane?"
Right? It's it's the complete inverse.
Like, if you were to throw your average
special operations dude in an F-15,
they'd be like, "Oh my god." So, just
imagine the reverse of that
>> when these people punch out and now
they're on the ground.
>> Supposed to be in three dimensions. I'm
now in two dimensions.
>> Yeah. And it's it's real. You know, you
could maybe see in your sensors people
looking for you, trying to shoot at you
at 25,000 feet, and now you're at 250
feet, and those same people are down
there, and they're looking for you. I
don't know if anybody got that close to
him, but
>> I I I would like to believe that tech
exists. I think that's a far stretch.
Probable. I don't Well, possible, not
probable.
>> Yeah, it's crazy to think that these
guys that have been will they have
training to be able to
evade limited. So, like I said, we we go
to the same school. It's about a week of
in-classroom stuff and a lot of it, at
least when I went through was based off
of Vietnam. A lot of studying the Hanoi
Hilton and the PS there and the, you
know, the tap codes that they they
created an alphabet system that they
would teach each other through doing it.
Um, and it was a 5x5. Um, and a lot of
it is what to expect if you're captured,
how you're going to be questioned. you
need to, you know, stay, you're supposed
to do the best that you can to stay
inside of the boundaries of releasing
particular information, but the reality
is with enough pain, people, they're
going to break, you know. Um,
and then you go out to the one I went to
is in Warner Springs, which is in east
of San Diego by not very far.
>> The one you went to,
>> the the Sears School, survival, escape,
resistance, and evasion.
um you go out to the and it was this was
aviators and
largely people who might find themselves
on the ground. So special operations
personnel, anybody that might find
themselves on the ground in like a
theater of war.
>> Um I don't think you would need to send
like traditional Navy people who are
going to be on a vessel to see your
school. Very unlikely, but that would be
that would be a rough day if they ended
up getting rolled up. I don't know. Like
wow, they swam out here and took out
really far from home.
>> Totally. Yeah.
>> God, that would suck. And then you would
really wish you had gone to that school,
but you know, uh, you got to play the
odds on that one. So, it was a couple
days of group navigation and then they
they start off a simulation where now
you're on E&E, escape and evasion, and
you're paired up and you were trying to
evade an enemy force that is looking for
you, probably very similar in concept to
Iran. And then everybody eventually gets
caught because you spend about two and a
half days in slappy camp where they slap
you around and they introduce you to uh
being I don't know if they would say
interrogated, but it's essentially what
it is. And you're in this little you
know it's just it looks like dog kennels
that human beings are in, you know, and
they're way too small to be in there. So
you can't find a comfortable position.
There's music playing all the time.
>> It must be very hard for you to get
comfortable with the erection that you
had.
>> Just stay hard. You know what I mean?
Ah, just the whole way through. That's
>> that's actually a great way to warn the
terrorists off you. Like we can't go in.
Don't go in kennel number five. He's
just he's permanently
>> erect. That's the That's the problem.
Some people they let it go. The the key
is go hard.
>> Always got to be on.
>> I mean, I' if I put myself on the other
side of that coin, it be like just leave
that dude alone.
>> Clearly there's some psychopathy there.
I would know.
>> I'm terrified of him. You'll get him
right.
But if it's a couple days and then those
people go back to if you're an aviator,
your job is to aviate and so they're
going to go back and master that craft.
And I don't think any
>> keep on top of their handguns, their
>> probably not. I don't know what like
level of minimum training that they're
required to do. It's probably currency
at best. Competence and currency are not
the same thing. Uh but again, they have
to be competent in current and flying a
multi-million dollar aircraft in a place
where
>> Prioritize your training appropriately.
>> Totally. Yeah. So, I I can only imagine
that that guy, he had a hell of a day
and a half or two days, however long he
was on the ground.
>> Someone said, "I can't wait for Mark
Wahberg to play this guy in a movie."
>> Yeah. Yeah, it's possible.
>> That's basically what you're doing.
You're like, I don't want to be I don't
want to be picked up after 12 hours. If
I get picked up after 36, then there's a
movie. Mark Wahberg gets to blame me.
>> Especially it's like 48.
>> Yeah. Now we're talking.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Don't turn your beacon on. Yeah.
>> Like looking really keep them guessing.
Wouldn't it be cool if you had like a
little chart and on the chart it's the
different actor levels and for the
longer that you stick about you go it's
36 hours but at 36 hours I only get
Marky Mark but at 48 I get Brad Pit.
>> How did you get such insight into the US
military office?
>> At 72 it's Chris Hans going to make it
to 72 I want He to play me.
>> He's a handsome man.
>> He is
>> better in person.
>> Yeah. Unbelievably handsome in person.
Yeah. That actually was where I got the
permanently erect idea from.
>> Okay.
>> It's terrifying. So technology in war.
>> Yep. Is it making soldiers more fragile
or more effective?
Do you think?
I think two things can be true
sometimes. I don't
I don't think you should outsource
killing and killing through a screen,
even though I think that that's the way
that the world is probably headed. I
think that removes the burden associated
with that. But at the same time, some of
those tools can help you kill people a
lot more effectively.
>> So, you mean there shouldn't be a
flippency with pulling the trigger or
the equivalent of on another human?
>> No, I don't think so. I think it should
scramble your eggs for
maybe the rest of your life. Not like
destroy you, but it should change your
optic
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Wasn't there a stat around
the number of soldiers who either didn't
fire their weapon or fired their weapons
in a direction that wasn't basically
toward the enemy in World War II.
>> Yeah, SLA Marshall did a study on this
and it's why they went from shooting at
circular accuracy targets to silhouette
type targets. Now, there's some issues
with SLA Marshall in his data
collection, though. So, as they've
looked at this in hindsight, he claims
to have interviewed a substantial number
of people and somebody finally just got
out a calendar and a piece of paper and
said, "How many did you say that you
did? And how long were you over there
for?" The math doesn't math on that. So,
there come to find out there some BS
involved. Uh, that section of military
history as well. Um, but that is um a
lot of where Grossman got his on killing
information as well too. And walking
through that, they claimed that there
was a a statistically very small amount
of people that would actually aim their
weapon at another human being and pull
the trigger. And they associated that uh
probably with two prongs. One, just the
morality of humanity, but two, only
practicing shooting at things that
didn't look real. Not that it's like a
green type silhouette. It doesn't look
that real, but it looks more human than
a circular
>> bullseye.
>> So, they swapped that out. And then I
believe SLA Marshall and Grossman, their
theory was that the percentages went up.
I don't know how you actually measure
that. You know, I talked with some guys
who served in Vietnam. They're like,
"God damn, man. I was shooting at
everything I could get."
The only thing that stopped me is I ran
out of bullets. I'm like, "Whoa, dude.
You're at a 12. Can I get you back at an
eight?" Also, are you okay? Have you
talked to anybody about this in your
life? Are you just like waiting for me
60 years later to ask you this question?
As my dad, by the way,
Jesus Christ. Well, and look, I mean,
the technology might enable people to
get around that if that is an issue. And
>> should we allow that, man? I I
killing is so romanticized in so many
ways. And it is something that I God it
should be a measure of last resort. And
I don't know if you should remove the
complexity and difficulty associated
with that
with certainly the flippency that people
can find around that. It shouldn't be
there.
>> Well, look at it. You can if you're on
any social media platform.
I mean, did you see Charlie Kirk's
death?
Uh, how would you say? Uh,
unconentingly. Yeah.
>> So, all So, all three of my kids did
too. That was the hardest conversations
I had to have was with all three of my
kids, especially knowing what their dad
did.
>> They I am the most resoundingly
uninteresting human being to them. I
think they have maybe asked me about my
old job
five times.
>> I don't I don't know what they know or
don't know. I don't talk with them about
it. I have nothing military related at
the house. It's just I'm just I just try
to be their dad. But all three of them
in formative years of their life
scrolling on social media cuz their
generation is of course almost
terminally online at this point saw
that. I saw it as well too. And on any
of these social platforms, if you go
deep enough down a rabbit hole, there's
no way that these filters can be as
effective as we want them be. You're
going to see people who are dying
online. And that is not something that
most people ever actually see in their
real life. And I don't know if that
reduces your, you know what I mean? Like
it's like this
this barrier that I'm very thankful that
almost nobody is willing to cross. Like
people might talk a big game about that,
but almost nobody is willing to cross
that barrier. And I'm very thankful for
that because it's not something that
should be talked about flippantly. I
don't think we should remove barriers to
making that easier.
That was really I mean that's seared
into my brain. Think about how many
videos on the internet you've seen. Like
tens of thousands of videos that I've
seen on the internet.
>> Rookie numbers.
>> Yeah, I know. [ __ ] baby numbers,
dude. Up your game.
>> We're talking a week.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Just that's just porno. Um
>> and uh that one it's not the it's not
the main angle that everybody saw. It
was the second one that was much more
graphic. Yeah.
>> And I didn't mean to see that one
either. I that's not my idea of a good
way to spend an afternoon to see that.
And uh yeah, I didn't I didn't mean to.
But then you're contending with what
does freedom of speech mean? And freedom
of exposure. Is that the same thing as
freedom of speech?
>> Freedom to be exposed to these things.
And how much should we There's certainly
things that we don't want to be
insulating people from.
>> Yeah.
>> But then there's stuff that almost
universally like a guy being killed in a
really really graphic way.
That's one of the ones that who who
needs to see that as a part of their
human development.
>> I completely agree. And the fact that
that stuff exists and will for the
foreseeable future,
>> I don't know. I don't know what that
does to the psyche of people who see
that when they're
in the those developing ages.
>> What's something about special
operations that you think civilians
glorify that's completely wrong or
misconstrued? the people
legitimately. So I
I truly served with people that I
consider to be
just tremendous in every regard and not
like a person that was tremendous in
every sense, but I could look in
somebody and say, "Oh my god, I wish I
could do what you're able to do to fill
in the blank." I could find inspiration
in those people and look at them and
say, "Okay, I know what's possible." and
and and if you can get to that level, I
can at least try to get to that level
because I want that to be the standard.
And you could apply that across the
board,
but they're all exceptionally normal
people. The special operations community
is not comprised of people that put a
cape on and go to work. They are very
normal people that are tasked with doing
some exceptional things at times, but
they suffer from the same ailments of
life that everybody else does. And you
can easily create this unrealistic
expectation that they can do anything,
that they can tolerate anything, that
they are impossible to knock down. And
that isn't the case, man. They're
normal, exceptionally average people. I
wish I could take people in, introduce
them to the first day of of Bud's
training where you'll have a couple
hundred people lined up and like just
look at the physiology of these people.
Be like, there is going to be like a D1
college athlete, which guess what? That
[ __ ] is not going to be able to swim.
So, see you later, right? And there's
going to be a marathon runner and that
guy's going to have a really hard time
swimming. So, that stuff kind of sorts
itself out. The rest of it, you would
look at their physiology and anatomy and
be like, "Really?" Like, "You look like
the dude who was checking me out at the
grocery store." And that's like, "Yeah,
that dude's a savage, but still also a
normal person." And I think that's
forgotten often.
And you can actually lie to yourself
when you're in that community because if
people expect that from you, you start
expecting it from yourself and then
you're headed in a really deep dark
place. You got a line, we are not as
unique as we think. We just struggle in
different ways.
>> Yeah, I'm guessing that's what you're
talking about here.
>> Yeah. I mean there you have more in
common with a guy who's bagging your
groceries and a special operation
soldier than you could possibly think.
And nobody wants to believe that. I'm
not saying why I did that. I want to
believe it.
>> I don't know. Um
>> because then I think it makes it easy
for people to say, "Well, I can never do
that because that person's different."
And I'm not saying take the grocery bag
or two. I ran, you know, maybe maybe
take the guy.
>> See if you can [ __ ] survive.
Actually, we really want to make a movie
about you with Mark Walber.
>> You can put whatever you want to in this
brown paper bag, but it's all you have
to survive
>> next 72 hours. Yeah.
>> Only if you want, Chris.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. No, it's it's easier to if you can
say, "Well, they're different." Then you
give yourself an excuse. No, I can't do
that. I And I went back as an instructor
for 18 months and I watched these kids
and I'm sure the instructors watch my
class and said the same thing like,
"God, I work with retards."
That's
clearly what they were saying about my
class. But it it was not a group of
people that are on baseball card decks.
It was people from all over the US from
the Midwest to coastal cities who would
probably have politics align a little
bit more blue and some align a little
bit more red and people who joined the
military to get out of their
socioeconomic position because they had
no upward mobility and legitimate people
who had probably generational wealth and
they're all there and they're all so
ridiculously the differences are it's
just it's roundoff error. The
similarities are Yeah. They're just
average people.
>> What did you learn as an instructor
looking at selection that you didn't
learn being part of selection?
>> Yeah. Let me just tell you it's a
different experience.
>> Right. Okay. Because you were warm. Did
you Did you play into the fact that when
you went through it, you saw some
bastard with a big anorak on holding a
hot cup of cocoa? You're like, "Ah, now
it's my turn."
>> Well, with all generational trauma, the
goal with it should be to pass it
downhill. So, at least that's what the
military uses. Um, no, there are
definitely people who play like roles
and caricatures. I was a I went back uh
about 10 years after I had been in and I
was rehabbing from getting hurt. So, and
also we were well into the global war on
terror. So, when I went through in 1997,
the concept of the real world
application of the job was exactly that.
It was a concept. I volunteered during
peace time
>> and there was a generation of SEALs that
had served post to Vietnam all the way
up until that point
>> that had never seen.
>> No, but I mean that doesn't change
though how hard they trained and how
much they focused on the job. It's
either good luck or bad luck depending
on the optic that you're looking at it.
And people will tell you it's both like
oh it's good luck I didn't get that or I
had feel like I have horrible luck
because I didn't get those experiences.
>> So it was a different world for me going
through training. A lot of this stuff as
a student it's really weird. You see my
class started with 180 people and we
graduated 18 of the originals. So every
day you're peeling people off mostly in
the first phase of training. That's
where the vast vast majority of people
are going to disappear. But you don't
get to talk to them because your
training day continues and they're just
they're gone and they are shifted over
to another division and they're housed
in a different area. And this and that's
not demeaning by any stretch. They just
they lift and shift them from the class
that is going through training and
you're back to the needs of the Navy.
You can come back and that's something
that people don't often know. You can uh
you have to go back out to the fleet for
a couple years. You're going to have to
rescreen to come back in. But some of
the most legendary SEAL operators are
guys who didn't make it through BUDS
their first time.
>> And I I don't know why people don't
understand that. Like, oh, you failed
one time. I have to go, you know, my
life is over. like I don't you know I I
don't if I had to list my successes and
failures let me just tell you the
failure list is multiples magnitudes of
order greater than my success list but
when I went through as a student nothing
made sense because you would have an
instructor one day you would you would
do something that they would ask and
they'd be like good job and the next day
you would do something that they would
ask and they would just hand you your
ass like what is going on here so it was
very chaotic
>> and it didn't make sense like why are we
so focused on some of these things it
always attention to detail, attention to
detail, attention to detail, and follow
procedure regardless of how you feel and
what is going on around you. As an
18-year-old kid, some of those things
are very difficult concepts, right? And
I also, again, the lens of
I mean, this is just training, right?
Like nobody's been to war in a really
long time. Like, you guys take it easy a
little bit. I'm like, God. Then I go
back in 2006, so we're five years into
the GWAD at this point. And I looked at
the curriculum and I saw what we were
doing and I it was constant aha moments
of like, oh, this is why we do that.
Attention to detail has nothing to do
with the knife that I'm expect
inspecting to see if it can cut hair
before you go for an ocean swim or the
CO2 cartridges that you twist into a
life jacket that was produced in 1918
that I don't even know would save your
life if you fired the cartridge off. But
you're sitting there as an instructor
and you're looking at each one of the,
you know, the the screws and all all the
little crevices. Is there any rust in
there? Is there any sand in there? It's
not going to matter when it comes to
functioning. You're focusing on
attention to detail above everything
else because that's what's keeping you
alive when it comes to following a
tactic when the entire world around you
is falling apart. Um, so that type of
stuff, time management, emotional
control, decision- making, all of those
things. Going back as an instructor,
like, okay, now I get it. And the way I
viewed it was this. I'm only going to be
an instructor for 2 years, maybe on the
far end, 18 months, and I do want to
continue my career. And if I do so, I'm
going to go back to a SEAL team. And
guess who I'm going to end up serving
with? All of these people. So, it is
probably even to my own benefit and
perhaps survival if I try to pour as
much knowledge information into these
people as opposed to treating them like
the red-headed stepchild that you'd like
to forget, which is technical
description of how my class is treated.
Not that I harbor any resentment and bad
feelings.
>> You think you had a particularly bad
one?
>> They hated our class.
>> They hated the leadership of our class.
We did. So, hell week is the fifth week
of training and it opens with like M60s
firing blanks and smoke grenades. It's
supposed to be like this intro into
combat.
>> Sounds like [ __ ] Coachella's opening
party or something.
>> I've never been to Coachella, but I like
where your head's at. And uh probably
less alcohol at this party than
Coachella and Molly, but uh for our
class, they just walked out to the beach
cuz they put you out in these huge
general purpose tents and they just
walked out to the beach and with the
bullhorn and they're like hit the surf,
which just means run out of the tent and
you just go get into the water. That's
all we got. They hated our class. They
beat the [ __ ]
>> Why do you think they hated you so much?
>> It was leadership.
>> You have a leader during hell week.
>> You have a leader at all times,
>> right? So, um, they did not like me.
>> Were you the leader?
>> No, no, no.
>> I was gonna say I totally understand
them at certain.
>> No, no, I failed in my leadership roles
much later on. Um, after I had enough
knowledge and experience and just not
the technical capacity to uh do my job,
it's not everybody's. And then there's
another thing that a misconception that
people have. Well, you know, if you come
from special operations, you're just
naturally this leader. You're going to
be awesome. You can lead in any
situation. It's not true. The best
leaders that I ever was around was in
that community. And in the same breath,
the worst leaders that I was ever around
was also in that community. But nobody
can tell that from the outside because
we still will be successful,
>> get the job done,
>> right? And then so people look at that
community then they say, "Well, okay, if
you guys always get the job done, then
your leaders must all be awesome." Why
don't you go ahead and canvas the group
and you'll find out right quick which
leaders are liked and appreciated and
are actually doing the jobs and which
ones are lucky that they might not have
a dick rubbed on the inside of their
coffee cup.
>> So you had a strong headwind.
>> Is that mean a dick on my coffee cup?
>> Yes.
>> Yeah.
>> I did the best I could. I've never
claimed to be a good leader. Man, I have
made I'm not joking. I've made more
mistakes in my life than I've had
failures. This episode is brought to you
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checkout. That's jim.sh/modernwisdom
and modernwisdom10 a checkout. You have
this line about failure being tuition
payments. Yeah. I've reframed how I view
failures. I now consider them tuition
payments. Some of my tuition payments
have been relatively inexpensive and
some have taken me to the brink of
bankruptcy.
>> Yeah. Uh it's just an easier way to uh
get comfortable with consistently
failing. You just lying to yourself and
reframing that, hey, maybe this is a
good thing.
>> Cost of doing business is a great way to
look at this stuff though, dude. It
really is legitimately I I didn't view
it like that for many many years in my
life because you want to sit there and
blame every external circumstance and
maybe you do fail because of an external
circumstance but by reframing it as a
lesson that I learned then that I can
apply moving forward that tuition
payment that you really don't understand
the cost of. I mean, I'll take a to put
it in business terms, I'll take a $5,000
mistake that would save me 500,000 later
on, you know, and that's that's really
all it is.
>> It's uh failures are rough. I mean, it
doesn't make it any easier by reframing
it to that. But I also sitting here
today the person that I am because of
the failures and hopefully what I've
learned from those as well.
>> What are some of the most expensive
lessons that you've paid for?
Oh man.
So earlier in life,
my entire life was based around this
concept of being somebody who was
incapable of quitting because that's the
community that I came from. And
because of that,
I put my children and myself through
probably 10 extra years in a
relationship that I'm still working my
way out of and the impact of because I
would look at myself in the mirror and
say, "Today's the day, huh, [ __ ] You
gonna quit?" I literally talked myself
into staying in something that
demonstrabably and objectively almost
everybody from the outside after I made
the decision to leave was like, "Hey
man,
>> good job on that one. Wish you would
have done that about a decade ago
because of how I viewed myself in that
situation." That shift
>> and I write about it. It's I'd actually
at this point in my life rather see
people fall a little bit short of their
goals and know when to walk away than
destroy themselves because they don't
ever want to quit and they end up having
nothing in their life. There's a fine
line between resilience and suppression
with this. And a lot of the time I think
we uh
>> we compute confuse suppression for
strength. And I I'm I'm kind of
fascinated about
the line between
giving up too soon.
>> Mhm.
>> Leaving it on the table, sandbagging a
workout, and stopping because you're
about to get injured.
>> That is a tough one because how do you
measure that? That there's no external
tool that somebody can look at you and
say, "Hey,
you should keep going." Because they
don't actually, you know, like they
don't know how your body's
>> what your limit is.
>> Yeah. And especially you need to use an
exercise as an example like the tension
that you're under like you you're
actually getting physical feedback. It's
like no no I'm not going to put that
down so I don't blow my you know my
spine out.
>> But the emotional one's even more
difficult because what what does it mean
to say that you went past your emotional
limit? Yeah.
>> What does an injury
>> relationally or karmically or
psychologically mean compared with Yeah,
dude. I I put the 380 on the bar and
tried to do 20 back squats and I blew my
MCL out. Yeah, that was a bad idea. But
what does that mean? Because it's you
erode psychological well-being in small
chunks typically over a very long period
of time. So, you can always go one more
day. You can always go until you get to
the stage where you've accumulated
sufficient damage. Yeah, I wish I would
have been able to recognize that point
earlier in my life. It would have saved
a lot of hardship for myself and I think
for my my children as well too.
But if I'm like anybody else, I'm almost
always my own worst enemy. You know, my
mastery of negative selft talk, I I I
have no uh education beyond a high
school diploma that I barely got. I
think they gave it to me just so I would
get out of there, but a PhD in negative
selft talk. How does that encourage you
to stay in situations that you should
leave earlier?
>> The reason I stayed is because the
entire currency of my life up until that
point was being known to somebody who
wouldn't quit.
>> And that's very common inside of that
special operations world. again, you
know what what do you what are these
misconceptions that people may have and
and that's why to me it's so important
to at least try to pull back the curtain
a little bit and just explain that these
are absolutely average people like yeah
and oh god so many guys will say this
and I hate the term always and never but
most guys would tell you like listen the
job will always suffer last the boys
will always suffer last but the family
will absolutely suffer before your job
performance does I mean you put
everything
for that pursuit of who you are and what
you're doing on a pedestal and
everything else around you in life is
falling apart and you still have to deal
with that at some point and it's just
that unwillingness to let people down
and that unwillingness to admit like hey
man like I'm falling apart at the seams
here like I might be performing at work
but absolutely every other metric in my
life is is trending in the wrong
direction the guys won't say anything
it's dangerous I think it has a lot to
do with what happens when uh you know
guys get out and the struggles that they
have when they get out as well too.
>> I found out that of professional
athletes
who get divorced, 50% of the divorces
happen in the first year after they
retire. It's a different universe when
you stop going to work and you actually
have to physically be there. Uh the
world I came from
270
days a year on the road easy. I mean,
you you you're living independent but
make hopefully parallel lives and then
you switch to 365 home.
>> Hey honey, do we know each other? Do you
still like me?
>> And you've lost your purpose. I think
that's a big one. Like you are trying to
deal with the deceleration of your own
identity. Hopefully you guys put the
brakes on a little early, you know, lift
their head up a little bit, realize that
however long you want to stay in the
military, the end is coming. So you can
kind of keep an eye on the horizon on
the future. Uh the longer people wait
for that, I think the tougher the
transition can be. But yeah, it's it's a
shock, man. You got to be careful that
it's not who you are, that it's just
what you do.
>> Given that it's so all-encompassing,
that's got to be difficult though.
>> Extremely. And I think that's why I mean
the stats don't lie. Statistically, uh
veterans special operations as well
suicide rate is statistically anomalous
>> in comparison to the rest of society.
You've got this line, until you view
yourself as the author of your life,
you'll be the victim of it.
>> Yeah. What's that mean?
>> It means until you stop blaming
everything else around you for the
course and trajectory of your life,
you're just going to be a flag in the
wind going with the direction that the
wind is blowing. And for clarity, you
have almost no control over what happens
in your life, but you have complete and
total control in how you respond to it.
And that is being the author of your
life. So life sucks sometimes. Cool. Are
you going to suck with that or are you
going to take control of who you are and
work your way through that and maybe
even be better at the end of that,
right? Um and that's the difference
between somebody who will sit there and
externally instead of doing anything
about what's going on, they'll sit there
and complain about what's going on and
point fingers at everything. the author
of your life. Not that it's any easier,
but you accept what's going on and you
focus on what it is that you can
control, which is largely going to be
your actions, your thought process, your
internal monologue, and what you do with
it.
I suppose an interesting an interesting
challenge that you have here is you are
the author of your life
>> and that means that you need to take
responsibility for how you have
contributed to the problems that you're
facing. But that also includes how your
traits even the ones that in a different
world or a different environment were
strengths, yep,
>> you are having to pay the price for now
too. That's also you are your own
responsibility. Your traits are your own
responsibility. If you take a no quit
attitude to everything in life, you are
headed towards failure. You have to
control those tools as well too. And
again, that from coming from a community
where that was the currency in equity is
your ability to never quit.
>> Let's apply that to alcoholism.
Like I have a drinking problem. I should
No, never quit. Okay, maybe I should
just pick up heroin then too and see how
far I can push that one. Like, you know
what I mean? Like you there's easy
examples of where that can get
completely out of control. And
it's just God, it's so God, it's so
dangerous. And and that's why I say I
would rather have people fall a little
bit short of their goals and understand
that not everything is worth destroying
who you are or killing yourself for.
>> There's just so few things in life that
I think actually rise to that level.
What's the classic avatar
mold of a special operator's
relationship like with their wife?
Man, uh that really varies. I don't know
if they're
some guys like to marry strippers, you
know. So,
>> I mean, this is we're not even talking
about the sailing anymore.
>> So, I mean, that's a weird avatar. And
I'm not here to tell anybody how to
party, but I mean that relationship
dynamic often involves Chinese food
getting thrown at you for some reason. I
don't know why, but I've seen it.
I've seen it. It's weird. Um, so it
really depends. The divorce rate in
special operations I would say hovers at
80 to 85%.
>> [ __ ] that's an estimate like I have no
that that it's anecdotal based on my
experience. But the other side of that
is so let's say it is 85. 15% of those
people are making it and I have seen it
where it's been high school sweethearts
legitimately high school sweethearts and
they they have the ability to grow
together even though they're apart and
they can reconnect. I mean a lot of that
has to do with too the the what was
modeled for you when you were young,
right? because a lot of people will
replicate the avatar of what was shown
to them when they were growing up.
That's what they think a relationship
looks like. That's one of my regrets for
staying 10 years longer than I than I
think I should have is and I got to the
point where I was asking myself like
would I want my own children to follow
my footsteps in this relation. Yes. And
if the answer like
>> and you are imprinting them.
>> Yes. And like what am I modeling here?
I'm you know I am the most influential
person in my children's life especially
at that point in time in their life.
What am I modeling? And it's like that
is a tough conversation here to have
like oh my god I'm actually
>> even though I I view myself as somebody
who can never have quit and this is the
only currency that matters. I am
actually modeling something I would
never want my child.
>> Would you want that for your kids?
>> Yes.
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wisdom. I mean, I spent a good bit of
time with Joo over Christmas and uh
>> he's an autonomous robot,
>> dude. He was just exto extoling the
virtues of his and his wife's
relationship. Yeah,
>> he's like we I think
>> that's an example of one that did work.
I think we've had about one and a half
arguments in 35 years or however long
they [ __ ] it.
>> Oh, that just means they lied to each
other.
>> Or she's too scared to do it. Uh
>> is a teddy bear.
>> Yeah, he's cute. He's been He was nice.
I saw him [ __ ] roll on the floor with
Mark Zuckerberg. That was a a scene that
I never thought I would observe.
>> That's not Why is it Mark?
>> No, no,
>> that that No, that's not good.
>> It's about half half the weight and size
and about a tenth of the experience of
Jock. But it was fun. It was fun to
watch, especially while they were on
their feet. It was really fun.
>> Yeah.
>> It was like watching UFC 1 happen.
>> Is Zuck we Is he We Is he a tiny man?
>> Not small. He's definitely packed on
some muscle and size and he's been
training a good bit.
>> How tall How tall do you think he is?
>> Uh 59
average for one, but
>> hey, look, I mean, it was it was good to
see Jo lie on top of another man. That
was that was a great way to spend it.
>> It's the best part about jiujitsu.
>> Yeah. Getting to lie on other men
>> or have them lie on top of you. You
know, we're not all tops.
>> Sometimes we're bottom. Sometimes we're
bottoms. Dude, um, what happened with
this Rob O'Neal conversation? Cuz me and
you were texting about it and I saw an
absolute tsunami of [ __ ] occur,
>> man. Um, I don't know how to accurately
answer that because I don't know.
There's the first time he and I ever had
sat down and talked. When we opened the
conversation, he reminded me that I had
taken him for his first tandem when he
went to the tandem course. I didn't
remember that because on that day, I was
there as an instructor. You probably
take six or eight people for a jump and
that's how you
>> that's strapped to you.
>> Correct.
>> You're a bottom.
>> They would be the bottom.
>> Ah,
>> they're front riding
>> power position.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Power. Actually, it is power
bottom. Yes.
>> PBA. Power bottom actual.
>> Yeah.
>> Um I didn't remember that because I'd
always said I'd never met the guy and he
was like, "Dude, you took me for a first
hand." I'm like, "Fuck. Sorry, man. I
didn't remember that. I've taken 1500
people for a first hit." So, it
definitely wasn't intentional.
I have never
seen a military operation that has more
tentacles
going out with divergence in
relayed experiences or stories, whatever
you would want to call it, than that
particular one. And I don't know what to
make of it. I know a lot of people that
were there. I was not. And not all of
their stories align with the most common
narratives as well too.
>> This is the Assama bin Laden, right?
>> Correct. Yeah. The operation was called
Neptune Sphere. So, dude, I don't know.
Um,
he didn't deviate from his story, you
know, he added some things in there that
that definitely surprised me about what
they included in the debrief and what
they left out of the debrief. What were
the things
>> uh from again I was not there so I'm
relaying this there was the first floor
the second floor and then bin Laden and
his wives and I believe a few children
were on the third floor the stories or
the related experiences seem to start
deviating at the the stairs that go up
from the second floor to the third and
very very few people were actually on
those stairs. I don't know how wide the
the stairways actually were, but
stairways can actually be really
dangerous from a tactical. You don't
want to get get a bunch of people in
there. It would take one guy to pull a
pin on a grenade and will it down a set
of stairs and you're having a real [ __ ]
day. So, you want to have enough people,
but also the minimum amount. And the way
he described it is that it they were
getting a little bit thin on bodies, but
the first person
saw movement, took a shot, they went
into the room.
Rob encountered bin Laden, shot Bin
Laden, and then essentially before
they went to the debrief and then after
that it I mean Rob said that as he was
getting ready to take pictures, a guy
walked up and shot him in the face
multiple times right in front of him
that essentially before they went down
to do the debrief that that the people
who were on the third floor got together
and decided what they were going to
include in that and what they weren't
going to include in that. And again, the
conversation was a while ago, so I don't
know the exact specifics of it, but it
was the initial shots and then the
follow-up shots from that as well from
Rob and the man who was in front of him.
>> Why is shooting a enemy combatant that's
dead in the face?
>> It's a worker. Mutilation of an enemy
combatant.
>> Correct.
>> Yeah.
Not
not advisable.
And if you
are going to do that and I mean it's
just I
that stuff happens. I mean, bottom line,
um, you also sometime I mean, but
there's a difference between the way he
described it is there was an immense
amount of time between essentially the
target being called secure, which is
where you can kind of unwrap a little
bit from a tactical perspective, right?
You like that call will come over the
radio and then you start a process of
basically gathering as much information
as you can. That's where you get the
cameras out and you start looking for
stuff and and bagging things.
You know, when you're clearing,
you don't want to you don't want to
leave uncertainty as if you engage
somebody, you don't want to leave
uncertainty as to whether or not they're
going to resurrect themsel and come. So,
it's and so you what you end up doing is
you inflict wounds that are incompatible
with life. So, if you can put the inside
of their head on the outside of their
head, that's usually a good indication
that that problem is solved. Um there's
a difference in doing that as you were
clearing instructor in his structure and
actively engaged and then after you know
what I mean after that happening
it happens. It's a it's a [ __ ] ugly
occupation
and it will show you the best of who you
are and the worst of who you ever
thought you could be. And some people
get lost in that. And you put people on
the front lines who have been sharpening
their teeth for decades, fighting the
same people in the same places. It
happens. But does that feel like
righteous retribution in the moment?
Perhaps.
>> Probably in the moment, but and almost
immediately regret.
>> I don't know if there's always regret.
>> Um
sometimes I don't think there ever is.
To me, my personal opinion, and I only
speak for myself,
we need to be better than that. If we
want to be a beacon to the world, we
need to be better than that.
And that's tough
because it means that you need to play
by rules that other people are maybe not
going to.
You need to respect certain boundaries.
You need to play I mean, Warf, you know,
the the Geneva Convention, get it.
Totally understand. Rules of engagement,
totally understand. Law of war, rule of
war, totally understand. There is a lot
of flexibility inside of all of those
things. You can do everything that you
need to do and be accomplish the mission
you need to and dominate people on the
battlefield inside of those things. Just
imagine, I mean, in a lot of times, all
you have to do is flip the coin. How
would the American people react if let's
say pilot in Iran, right? We'll go to
modern day. Got captured,
got killed, and then they put on the
internet a guy walking up with an AK and
unloading a magazine into his face.
That's not going to go over well.
If we do that to other people, often
times that'll move the barrier for what
they're willing to do to us as well. And
I think that our country and our flag
needs to stand for more than that.
Well, there's already a level of
contention over the US entering
conflicts at the moment, and
I don't know what you think this does to
how attractive military service looks at
the moment, but at least for me, you
know, in the UK, for instance, you've
spent a good bit of time in the UK. Um,
>> there is no we would like to invite
first responders and active military
personnel to board the plane early. How
come?
>> Because no one gives a [ __ ] about our
military.
I've never I've flown hundreds of
flights around the UK. They may have
changed it now, but I have never once
heard.
>> Do they have a special group that they
invite on early? I'm fascinated now.
>> I I I don't know. Maybe your friend that
ejected himself out into liqufied.
Perhaps he would get to go on first.
>> Gil, look him up, man. Holy.
>> Can he walk now?
>> Yeah. Okay.
>> He's like running half marathons.
>> Okay. I mean, I'm not saying his gates
good, but like
down
>> a little worse.
>> Uh, yeah. Just so the UK doesn't rever
the the veteran community in the UK. I
have no idea what that to me. It's the
sort of [ __ ] that I just learned about
in American movies and then since coming
here, I I for instance, I once was
wearing a Black Rifle Coffee uh t-shirt
and I think it had the American flag.
Yeah. And it's a sort of um military
green kind of color green.
>> Yeah. It's really nice t-shirt. I wore
it until it was [ __ ] Fredbear and I
got on a plane and a gentleman who was
sat in one of the earliest rows said,
"Thank you for your service to me as I
went past."
>> What did you say?
>> I was like, "We
as I'm like being [ __ ] conveyor
belted along
>> the movies." You say, "You're welcome. I
did it for you."
>> Okay, let's go.
There's enough about stolen valor
already for the British to come in. Not
only is stolen valor, it's stolen
patriotism. Holy [ __ ]
>> It's stolen passing valor. You were
being pushed along.
>> That's correct.
I'm like desperately trying I needed to
get my British out of the way first so
that I could apologize for him getting
it wrong. I'm like I'm so sorry that you
you you seem to be mist allow me to say
my word. Um but even within that like
it's just so there's a a reflex response
in this country. Not always though. So
my dad served you know
>> they didn't get that. Most of my dad's
generation that served in the military
they'd be the last person to tell you
that they actually did. His experiences
were completely different than the Yeah.
Yeah. than the modern era veteran. How
do you think he would change in the UK
though? Like let's transport 911. Do you
guys have twin tower? Are you guys
allowed to build that high? Are you
capable of it? Uh
>> I think we're capable of it. I mean
look, Christopher I thought five stories
was the maximum.
>> Christopher Ren was dude we had the 77
we had the 77 bombings.
>> So but let's say it was something. Okay.
So for whatever the analogy would be, if
911 had occurred in the UK and the UK
had responded in the way that uh the US
had in Afghanistan and obviously taken
to the fact differences in size and all
that, do you think it would have changed
the mentality though of the the citizens
in the UK and how they viewed it
perhaps? I mean I look I are you saying
to me that the turning point around how
the military was interpreted and the
level of warmth toward people who were
veterans was 2001.
>> I don't know if that was the I don't
know I can't claim causality but
correlation certainly existed.
>> That seems to be a prior to then not
quite so revered after then pretty
revered but okay. So maybe it's just
recency bias for me talking that what I
know from my memory of how people
respond to American veterans is that
it's thank you for your service, special
dispensation,
variety of different days and and
parades and all sorts of other stuff
with rainbow flags. And then you get
>> to now where
I don't know if the same thing is quite
so true. I I feel like there's a a lack
there's a dir of pendulums always swing
and so maybe it's going back to what it
what is more typical perhaps that was
the aberration perhaps that was the
anomaly the last 30 years or so 20 years
perhaps that was what was strange
>> I would say 20 years is the anomaly and
honestly I think the again to go back to
misconceptions
>> sorry World War II
>> guys came home that was a big part of
the baby boom was off the back of dudes
that were just revered by every single
person who hadn't been to war and all of
the other people that had as well.
>> Yeah, I think uh
revering a community above all others
can also become incredibly dangerous as
well. It becomes a manipulatable system.
It becomes a system that you can gain
and then poor examples or expressions of
that start that pendulum going back in
the other direction. I think it's a
naturally correcting thing, but yeah, I
think it has more to do with the
previous 20 years than anything else.
>> That would be my guess.
>> Yeah, I would just, you know, if you are
if there's the potential for boots on
the ground being needed in the Middle
East, which every day it just however
low the likelihood was or is, that
likelihood increases each day. I have
absolutely no idea what is going on. It
is pretty wild. How so?
>> Um
I thought that we were in the like end
the wars phase of politics and uh you
know don't start any new ones even
though technically we're not at war,
right? Of course there's that lovely
little caveat of how the authorized use
of military force has been completely
bent by every president that has been in
office since it was created. Um, I don't
know how well the checks and balances
are currently working. Um, I don't I
don't know the conscription thing like
registering for the draft. I mean,
there's a difference between registering
people for the draft and then like
executing a draft.
>> I would actually really like to see two
years of mandatory service for young men
and women. It would give people such a
different context on on the world around
them as opposed to just experiencing
world through Instagram at that age. you
go out and just if you could leave where
you were at and go to an area that was
perhaps more impoverished or just get a
different view of it and and serve
something bigger than yourself for 2
years, I think it would help a lot. But
I mean,
I don't I don't know. Um I get really
wary when there's no definable end
state. And that's on my own experience
in the global war on terror. I mean, we
accomplished our military objectives in
Afghanistan, and this is people way more
steeped in military knowledge and
understanding than myself, in about 90
days. We stayed for 20 years. Our exit
probably could have been better. We left
a few things behind. Did you see the
video of like the day after we left?
They were flying a Blackhawk with a man
hanging from his neck underneath the
rope underneath it. Literally the day
after. No.
>> Oh, yeah. Not really. We left a lot of
stuff behind. Iraq, you know, what's our
definable end state? What how long
Sorry. How long ago was the official
withdrawal?
>> Uh, 5 years,
>> I think. So, yeah, we have to look that
one up.
>> My point is, however long ago that was,
like I don't know. It's like you and a
toxic ex. Like, you're just not able to
stop going back. Like, I She's not good
for me. She wasn't good for me for a
long time. God, I've had a few
cocktails, though. God,
>> damn it, dude. I had to send the you up
WhatsApp. You know what's wild, too, is
uh where was it?
>> August 30th, 2021. So, not even 5 years.
And here's what's wild. We're talking
the talking point now is that Iran has
been our enemy for 47 years, which I'm
not going to argue. Like, death to
America is a thing for a certain segment
of the population and ideological belief
there. Got it.
Why are we choosing now over the 47
years? Where was the people? I mean, we
had a robust for people who don't know
where Iran is. It sits in between Iraq
and Afghanistan.
We had Oreo that [ __ ] They were the
delicious creamy center.
Oh, this analogy is getting wild past of
the US military.
But what we did is bailed when we had an
immense amount of infrastructure there
and now we're going to go back and I
just
give me some give me some metrics by
which we're measuring our like what are
we using as our metric here? We
destroyed their entire anti-air system
but we just lost two F-15s and two
A-10s. We just nuked four of our own
AH6s and the C130s that they flew in
there on. Like I thought we had air
superiority. Can't get We can't let them
get a nuclear weapon. Well, then what
did we strike for last year? Because the
president of the United States got up
there and said we completely annihilated
their ability to enrich uranium, but now
we're saying we can't let them get a
bomb. Like,
>> were you not telling me the truth then?
Are you not telling me the truth now? Or
are you never telling me the truth?
That's probably the better of a question
for politicians.
>> I just it's such it is such
a horrific thing to ask of people to go
do those things that I wish the people
that made the decisions
to some degree I wish they had more skin
in the game. I wish they had to deal
with them, you know, which that's never
going to be the case. But
>> we'll get back to talking in just one
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at modernwisdism at checkout. What's
that line about wars being chosen by old
men so that young men go out and die?
There's some Yeah. some py apherism
around that. But I mean
>> I I think what's what's been fascinating
to me is watching the commentary and the
supporters and the critiques,
criticizers of both sides like contort
themselves into knots trying to work out
what their position is on this. People
who didn't like Trump still don't like
Trump. Yeah. And have more reason not
to. Lots of people who did like Trump
also now don't like Trump. I don't know
of anybody who has been converted over
to the support and I think this is shown
in the polls. Like he has he has had
over the last two years, check this out,
Jared. I'm pretty sure over the last two
years, what what's happened to Trump's
uh approval numbers? I think he's had
the fastest decline in approval numbers
maybe in American history. Historically,
when you tell people to go [ __ ]
themselves on Easter,
>> that may happen.
Or what did he end the Easter uh post
with? Praise to Allah.
>> Oh yeah. Yeah. What the [ __ ] was going
on with that? I was over this.
>> You're asking me what's going on with
that? In the last two years, Trump's
approval has followed a pretty clear
pattern. A modest bump, then a steady
decline, now persistently low and
polarized.
uh 46% approval and 43% disapproval in
January 2025, which is higher than 2017.
Uh keep going down. Recent polling shows
55 to 60%. So a net negative approval of
14 to 20 points.
Yeah, maybe that's not as low as I might
have thought, but I mean still not
great, but that's a big drop. And
what was the [ __ ] I was in Australia
for this. I I kind of saw it third hand.
>> Why Why did you say the LR thing?
>> I love that you're asking me for an
explanation to that.
>> You psycho analyze Donald Trump for me
for a second.
>> Uh oh, yeah. Good. There you go.
>> Psychoanalyze. Right. I have a theory
about why Donald look.
>> Oh, is it glasses tied?
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Put these Put these
on. And now that you've got
Okay. So, why did Donald Trump say
praise to Allah?
>> Because we elected a TV star to be the
president of the United States.
God, I'm going to have to I'm going to
have to condition myself to use this.
>> Uh yeah. Well, I don't know what the
[ __ ] um is like what you can say the
current US administration's plan is. I
don't know if they have one and I think
that might be the scariest thing. I
people get so wrapped around the color
of their team's jersey and I just I want
whatever administration is in office to
do the best they possibly can so that we
all can benefit from that. And I don't
know where it it leads us when people
forget that the goal should be like hey
like thriving of this country but
they'll choose alignment of their color
jersey over like to the exclusion.
>> I don't understand that. I don't know
why it got that way. I don't also don't
know how to get out of it either.
>> They'd rather their side win but the
country lose.
>> I don't know if they would verbalize
that but their actions seem to be in
line with that
>> and I don't that's not great. It really
does at the moment, dude. It really does
seem just like I don't know, own goal
after own goal. And then even inside of
the Republican party, like the whole
thing that JD Vance ran on was America
first. Like the whole the whole his
whole philosophy was that
>> the next Republican candidate for
president is going to have a very
interesting character
>> trying to [ __ ] unwind this.
>> Well, they're going to have to run at a
time while he is still president and
answer for a lot of the policy
>> mean throwing him under the bus.
I don't think they'll be able to because
I think he would cut his own nose off
despite his face when it came that I
think
>> and not support them.
>> I think so.
>> So, you've got to walk this tight rope
of
>> And how do you do that?
>> Well, this was the issue that uh Camala
had, right? Where she was being asked
>> putting it down to a single issue or to
throw she was she was being asked to
under the bus Biden while still being
his VP.
>> Yeah.
>> And that was something that she
struggled with.
I mean, uh, something I thought about,
you know, did the Republicans win the
last elections or did the Democrats [ __ ]
it up so much, you know, like, hey,
we're not even going to let you choose
which candidate you're going to vote for
all because of all the money we would
have to get back and not be able to fund
raise with. So, yeah, we're going to
strip away your choice and like, this is
the person you got. Get on team blue.
Like, what? What? Yeah. What do you
think about the um the future of
mercenary organizations of sort of guns
for hire? Increasingly I'm seeing you
ask some people are saying that's the
way forward.
>> Um usually those people own those
companies but
that's a tough one. I don't think you
should be able to rent the American
flag. I think it should be issued on
your uniform and that's it. If you want
to do things, if the military is not
capable of doing the things that you're
filling those gaps with, then do me a
favor and restructure the military and
develop those capabilities instead of
outsourcing it because there are some
ways to cut corners outsourcing it and
paint outside of the lines that the
military isn't supposed to be able to
do. And I think that's a dangerous
thing.
I think if the military isn't serving
the role and isn't capable of doing it,
then let's solve that problem
>> because you're using this butress
performance-enhance uh thing to
>> and out I mean it
>> compensate.
>> Yeah, it's uh and there's also risk in
that too. I mean it it the Iranian pilot
as an example, dude, we nuked some
assets to go get that guy, which by the
way, people complain about the price of
that, but to go back to like being
issued in a flag on your uniform and
being asked to do exceptional things, it
kind of helps to know that if [ __ ] goes
sideways, like the chariot will be lit
on fire. It might not be pointed in the
right direction, like you might see it
go off a cliff, but like we're going to
come do something,
>> send another send more chariots until we
get you.
>> It uh it's that doesn't exist in the
contracting world. I mean, if you're out
there and and you're doing a contract
and you know, a kinetic contract in an
environment that is maybe less
newsworthy, but you're still I mean,
there is no like red button like, "Hey,
send everybody." And so, there's a lot
of risk involved in that as well, too.
>> That's interesting. I didn't know that.
How could there be? I mean, the the the
the sea star combat search and rescue
response that was all military based,
right? I thought that there would be
something that was a part of that
ecosystem inside of it. But I suppose
it's it's much closer to a market. It's
just a capitalist.
>> Correct. Yeah. I mean, they're talking
probably minimum manning at times. You
know what I mean? How many bodies do we
need to be able to do this? What can we
charge? They're not going to have like
the assets that we, no pun intended,
metaphorically and literally burn to the
ground. Those organizations don't have a
stable of those things to be able to do
that. So
yeah, it's I don't like the idea
of outsourcing military type rules
specifically when the underlying
motivation behind it is to skirt rules
that prohibit military behaviors and
activities. What are those sorts of
rules?
>> Rules of engagement.
um meddling in affairs that the US
military is not supposed to be meddling
in
>> because it would cross some kind of
diplomatic or
>> Yep.
>> legislative
>> Yep.
>> Right.
>> I don't think we should be doing that
stuff. I think it gets real murky real
fast. I'm not saying there's not a rule
for private military contractors, PMC's,
which are most of those organizations.
Um
I don't think outsourcing war is a good
idea.
Well, it suddenly opens up the problem
of who's got the biggest bank balance
and who can continue who who is going to
pay the most.
>> Yeah.
>> And if allegiance is basically to
whoever's got the biggest paycheck.
>> That's a problem.
>> I don't know much about Bitcoin, but
>> there's a lot of people out there with a
lot of Bitcoin. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Why
don't we have our own private military
contract? That would be nice. Uh
>> yeah,
>> people quit when they focus on how far
they have to go.
>> Yeah. Where'd you learn that?
>> Uh, so interestingly enough, going back
as an instructor, I was there for 18
months. I did not want to go back. It it
was global war on terror. That's a shore
duty command, non-deployable, meaning
regardless of what's going on, your job
is to be an instructor, which if you are
in a profession of arms and arms are
being used in your profession, you're
probably going to want to be over there,
not at a schoolhouse wiping noses and
asses, right? We didn't actually do
that. We let them do that for themselves
cuz they're adults. But it ended up
being the most rewarding 18 months of my
entire career. I look back on it and I
learned a lot about myself and it gave
me an incredible understanding of the
community and I realized it was like the
world's best laboratory
on why people quit. Like all of this,
there have been so many millions of
dollars and I don't have an exact I'm
going to say it's safe to say millions
of dollars have been spent trying to
figure out who makes it through SEAL
training. Psychological assessments,
looking at your sporting background, did
you come from a nuclear family, a broken
home, where'd you come from,
socioeconomic status, all of these
things, pre-training programs that
existed for a couple years, the
attrition rate just hums right along.
All of this stuff, it might have bumped
at a percentage point. Uh for people who
don't know, the attrition rate in the
summer months is about 75%. So three out
of four students aren't going to make
it. Winter months a little bit colder,
so more exposure to the elements, 80
maybe sometimes 90% attrition rate,
which is
>> You did winter, right?
>> Winter hell week. Yes. Um for sure. My
class was the last hard uh Buds class
that there ever was. Um documented. It's
written somewhere uh probably in my
handwriting, but um the winter the
winter is just it's just colder and the
cold sucks more. As a student when
you're going through you don't get a
chance to talk to the guy who is next to
you who quits because they're gone and
your training day continues. And
especially in like hell week, if that's
a fiveday evolution starting on Sunday
and ending on Friday, if they're gone,
most of the quitting occurs between
Sunday and about Tuesday morning.
They're already moved out of the bear.
like you'll probably never see them
again. So, as a student, you're just
like front sight focused. As an
instructor, they're there for a couple
of weeks. They have to process out. They
get put over in a different birthing
place. A lot of times they have medical
issues that they're working their way
through. And you are around young men
who probably a week before you have a
conversation with them would have told
you that it is their singular goal and
focus in life and that there is nothing
that you could have done to make them
quit and that they were going to be
there on graduation day and that this is
the only goal that matters to them. And
then eight to nine out of 10en of them
quit. And you can sit there and you can
talk to them about why. And I try to be
very kind uh in talking with them
because most of the people who have
regret is the largest emotion that just
is kind of outpouring. It uh they want
to go back. It sucks. I've met students
decades later or people who have quit
Buzz. I'm like, "Hey man, I'm not trying
to be a dick, but I'm just curious
because I have a theory. Like, how do
you feel about that decision?" Regret
every single time. They wish they had
been able to see it through because it
leaves a really large question mark in
their life going forward. So in spending
time with the students, I I would ask
them, you know, well, why did you quit?
And in that kind of fragile state, they
were really honest with me and they kept
saying the same things. There there
there was a couple categories and one of
them was huge. The small one was like
life happened. My dad died and I got to
get the [ __ ] out of here. Like dude, I
wish you the absolute best. You know
what I mean? Like that's not the data
set that I'm looking for. Injury is
another one. Can't control that because
that wasn't necessarily a consensual
choice. So boom, they're gone. everybody
else who rang the bell, "Why'd you
quit?" And they would all say the same
thing. I couldn't be as cold as I was
for as long as I thought I was going to
be cold. I would say, "Well, how who
told you how long you were going to be
cold for?" Well, nobody. But I told
myself I couldn't be cold for as long as
I thought I was going to have to be. or
tired or hungry or the combination of
all of those things or in physical pain
um or it was too hard. What they are all
expressing is a moment where they became
overwhelmed by the situation that they
were in and they started looking at time
literally time. How they viewed time was
the determining factor on the decision
that they made. If they could only see
where they were, like this is the
startup Bud's first day
>> and this is graduation on average 180
days and only thing that they can see is
the the gap between my two fingers.
Dude, that's a lot. Especially on your
first day when you get your [ __ ]
absolutely kicked in. And let's say you
had a 3M stack of uh little notes and on
the first one it said 180. And at the
end of that day where you're barely able
to walk back to the barracks, you rip
that off and it says 179. How pumped are
you? Not that pumped. So that's a person
who became they're they're creeping
towards becoming overwhelmed. Hell week
the same thing. Starts on a Sunday, ends
on a Friday. But if all you can see is
this gap and how far you are from your
goal, you're getting into a really
susceptible position in a really
malleable position from an instructor
state. And
that that was literally like that's the
secret sauce. This is the most important
thing that I learned in my entire
career. If you can identify that that is
the main reason why people give up on
their lifelong goals, you should be able
to reverse engineer that. So how do you
do that? You think about everything
other than that. So instead of trying to
get from here to here and only looking
at that distance, you slam these two
together. So there is a microscopic step
that you can take and you only focus on
that step and then the next one and the
next one and you don't have to keep
track of your steps because as long as
you keep making forward motion this
bridge will be gapped at some point in
time.
>> The muscle that fails at buds is not
below the neck. It's between the ears.
So they focus on that distance. They
become overwhelmed and they make a
decision that they'll regret for the
rest of their life. So the key to that
is to chunk your goals into the most
digestible piece that you possibly can
and then consistently put those one on
top of another. Is there a difference
between stress and overwhelm?
>> Can somebody force you to be overwhelmed
is a better question. I don't think so.
You can't actually and I would I would
have some interesting conversation with
this like well instructor so and so made
me quit.
>> Stand by please. I have additional
questions.
>> What do you mean? Well, they made me
quit. Like so they they they
interlaced fingers like the movie Ghost
where they were doing pottery and they
put your hand on the bell and rang the
bell. They're like, "No, no, no, no,
man. That's not what I'm saying." But
they were like in my face and they
weren't going away because they told me
they weren't going to go away and I
couldn't take it anymore. So I quit
like, "Okay." And again, these are
people in a fragile state. I'm not like
trying to have an argument with him, but
I would try to, you know, maybe
reinforce a little bit like, listen,
that instructor facilitated an
environment for you where you became
your own worst enemy and you made that
choice. And here's how I know that this
works. As soon as I understood that
concept that the view of time was the
most dangerous thing for the student,
I gave up on all physical tools that I
had, whether it was the ocean or the
watch.
or food or physical exertion. And I
would just talk to students like you and
I are talking right now. Like, dude,
what's going on, man? It's like you're
having a shitty day. This is only the
first day of hell week. And it would be
like the third, but they're already
hallucinating. And I had set my watch to
the incorrect day and time. You lost it.
How? You look like you're really cold.
How long do you think you can be this
cold? I'm on shift for the next 12
hours. I'm going to sit here with you
for 12 hours. I'm going to keep you in
this water for longer than you thought
was even possible.
>> And you could see it in their eyes. The
students are like just whatever, dude. I
know the game. [ __ ] off. And and there
so what they're chunking in that moment
is just surviving the interaction with
me. And I can recognize it, too. I'm
like, lame. Next. Then you go to the
other student and you can you start
seeing the self-doubt and you just water
the self-doubt. It was the single most
effective tool to get people to quit
trading.
Had nothing to do with anything in the
physical world.
So you can reverse engineer them.
>> So by reminding them how much further
they had to go,
>> that's all I focused on is I tried to
get them to focus on where they were,
how much more work they had to do to get
to their goal.
>> Mhm. It's not just going to be the next
minute.
>> No, I tried to get them to think of
anything but that. The kid was thinking
about the next month like lane, get out
of here. You're going to be fine. Good.
And like as you walk, you're like, good
job. You wouldn't say that, of course,
but you think it.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You out fox me.
You saw the game that I was trying to
pick.
>> Yeah, totally.
>> Yeah,
>> that's I mean it it's for clarity for
people who are hearing this, they're
like, "Yes, I'm going to start doing
this and everything in my life is going
to be easy." No, it doesn't make
anything easier. It makes it more
digestible.
>> Pain still hurts. Suffering still sucks.
But little bites of suffering, focusing
on that little bite and not letting
yourself get overwhelmed to make an
emotionally poor decision, that's going
to make a huge trajectory distance in
your life.
Yeah, the being paralyzed by indecision
thing is something that I've been pretty
fascinated by and I know it's something
that you are too. That line uh many a
wrong move was made by just standing
still.
>> It's the worst thing you can do. I wrote
about that too. Uh you get ambushed. The
actually the worst thing that you can do
is just stay in place, which is a really
hard one because sometimes you find
awesome rocks to hide behind. You're
like, "Hey dude, get over here. This
thing stops bullets." and your body will
be screaming at you, stay behind this
rock because it currently is stopping.
It's ballistically it's cover, right?
Cover is something that stops bullets.
Concealment is something that hides you.
Both work in hideand seek. Both do not
work in a gunfight. Don't confuse the
two. I've actually seen it happen. It's
pretty gnarly. Mostly it was the enemy
combatants thinking that bushes were
cover. It was not.
And also I can see you because you keep
picking your head up. So, like, dude,
you suck at hide-and-seek. Um,
if you stay there, though, because
you're scared because you don't want to
die, both of which legitimate emotions,
and your enemy starts to come around the
corner, it's going to be where you die.
>> Your indecision and inability to control
the fear that you are experiencing and
being shot at and somebody trying to
kill you is scary. Um, it's another one
of those misconceptions people have that
there's there's this fearless nature of
people in that community. That is not my
experience. I actually don't want to
work with somebody who is fearless
because that either means you're not
paying attention or you're a sociopath
or a psychopath. Neither of which are a
good model for that world.
>> So, if you just stay there because
you're scared and your enemy starts to
maneuver on you, it's going to be where
they find you. It's actually we're going
to be they're going to find your dead
body. What you actually have to do is
even knowing that you could potentially
absorb risk, you could get hurt, you
have to move and you have to switch that
on the people that initiated the ambush
on you. The fastest way to get out of an
ambush is to either depending on the
type, there's linear ones that look like
lines or elves often time is to punch
through it or to flank. But that
requires movement.
>> That's and that's the same thing as that
indecision, right? If you're paralyzed
by indecision, you're not going to do
anything and the world is going to
continue to shift around you and then
you're even farther behind the ael. I'd
rather have see people take maybe even
take a step in the wrong direction, but
get some momentum going. Obviously,
correct for your mistake as quick as
humanly possible, but dude, get the
wheels running. Like, get the wheels
spinning on the road.
>> What are the other traits that matter in
life or death situations that people
overestimate or underestimate?
>> Emotional control. As ridiculous as that
is to say, because it is an emotionally
scary event, you have to be able to
detach your emotions from your
decision-making process. You have to be
able to function. And that is what the
test I administered in second phase was
a diving test and it was 20 minutes
long. You're tying a bunch of knots in
the students gear
and they have to get the knots out in an
appropriate procedure. If you deviate
from procedure, you fail. We'll pull you
out of the water. You get four attempts
at the test. So even if you do the knots
but you do them in the wrong way,
>> you have if the at a broad level the
mouthpiece that you are breathing out
of, if it is in your mouth and I leave
it in your mouth as I tie a knot, you
have to start from the mouthpiece and
work your way back. If I rip it out and
tie a knot, you have to start all the
way from your manifold and trace it up.
And some people will just reach up and
put the mouthpiece in their mouth like
doop. You just it's like
>> fail right there.
>> Yeah.
>> But they can't breathe.
>> And I know that because I can see the
inhale and exhale. And if you want to be
a dick instructor, you wait till all the
bubbles come out and go like, "My
mouthpiece." Right? If you don't want to
be a dick instructor and you want to
teach the students, you just tap them on
the mouthpiece because it's a one:1
ratio. This is a one:1 test. Tap them on
the mouthpiece, let them get a big
breath, and then I take the mouthpiece
and I tie knots. And there's a variety
of different ways that you can do it.
And I'm sitting there as an instructor
just floating in a wet suit with a mask
and snorkel on. And you you start see
it. They start like like it's insane.
And it's like, "Cool. I've been there. I
know it sucks. Are you going to follow
procedur? And at the end of that week,
if they pass that test, you sit them
down. You're like, for the love of God,
please do not go recreational scuba
diving because you guys don't know a
[ __ ] thing about it. This test had
absolutely nothing to do with diving and
everything to do with stress management
and following procedure regardless of
what's going on in the world around you.
>> What's drownroof?
>> Drownproof is uh an evolution that does
not make you drownroof at all. Plenty of
seals unfortunately have drown. You get
introduced to that in first phase. Um,
the final evolution, which is the
picture on the front cover, is where you
have your hands tied behind your back
and your feet tied together. And I
believe this is 30 years in the rearview
mirror. You bob up and down for an hour.
You then have to transit the pool uh all
the way to the end and then back
>> after an hour.
>> After an hour, which if this is one of
the most relaxing Oh, hold on. Hold on.
What I'm about to say is not a
recommendation for people to do in their
own personal pool. Uh, what I'm saying
is as a student, you can only hear them
yelling at you as your head is above
water. So, if you're comfortable, if
you're comfortable in the water,
>> I get if I stay down here, I can't hear
Andy shouting at me.
>> It's Yeah. Well, I had a bullhorn. So,
it's like talking at a normal voice with
an extremely high decel level.
>> Y,
>> which talking to somebody from 6 in from
their face with a bullhorn, let me just
tell you, it's pretty fun. The
What are you thinking about right now?
They're like, "Oh my
again, generational trauma. It has to be
passed downhill because instructors did
that to me. It is for an hour. I played
water polo in high school. So for me, I
was comfortable in the water. And
although on the picture on the book,
their hands are tied, their feet are
tied, but this is also a 1:1 ratio. Half
the class is watching the students in
the water and there are instructors in
the water for safety.
>> So
>> you try not to kill people.
>> We do our absolute best. Even though I
will say it is essential people diet
training from time to time and we can
touch on that if you want to after I
describe this but the first time they do
this their feet aren't tied together and
they're just holding their fingers
behind their back. It's a crawl walk run
approach. Then we'll use like some
velcro right or maybe just do the legs
and then the hands.
>> If you bob up and down it's it's
honestly you bounce off the bottom, take
a deep breath and you slowly exhale to
become negatively buoyant and you
bounce. It's really not that bad. The
swimming isn't that bad either. Then you
get back and they throw a mask into the
water and you have to go down, bite it
with your teeth, come up and then bob
with it for a bunch of times and then
the test actually ends
>> cuz that limits the ability for you to
breathe or it's just a [ __ ] awkward
thing to do.
>> I feel like it's the latter. I have no
explanation as to why. And I think
there's honestly a somersault in there
somewhere too.
>> This is scientifically this isn't
justified at all.
>> No, it's not at all. Again, this is just
a rolling rock of generational trauma
that's going downhill. And so that is
drown proofing. The concept being though
like before thriving, let's learn how to
survive. It's about control and comfort
to the best of your ability in an
environment that you can't control and
probably shouldn't be comfortable in if
you have your feet tied together and
your hands tied behind your back. Some
people like, "Oh man, is this so like if
you guys are taken hostage on a boat,
you can just go do like a dolphin off
the side and pour proud." I'm like, "Uh,
no. That's not what that's for at all.
So I'm like it's so crazy and again I
didn't I didn't understand a lot of this
as a student that this was just the
evolution of the day like okay cool
let's go through it let's get it done
one of the evolutions is a 50 m
underwater swim like why why do we do
this cuz it freaks people out and that's
exactly why we is it do you really need
to be able to do a 50 m underwater swim
I don't think so I hope not that would
suck I don't want to do one but you do
it in training because it scares the
[ __ ] out of students and it's again it's
a onetoone and the instructors are doing
the best they can to make you nervous
beforehand.
>> How are they doing that?
>> We have many tricks and tools.
What year is it? 2026. Okay. Statute of
limitations is probably expired on this.
So
we would often grab the foreign students
first that were augmenting trade.
uh they were paid to be there by their
host country and we couldn't really get
rid of them anyway. And so like the
diving test when you're so the 50 m
underwater swim is a great example
but the diving test or even the tread is
even better where you have scuba tanks
on your back. You have your fins on a
weight belt on and you have to tread
water with to the wrist or about where
the watch would be with your hands out
for five minutes.
Five or six students are going at a
time. Everybody else is on the pool
deck, but their back is to the pool, so
you can only hear it. So, if you were to
grab
a subpart performer and they were to
lose their [ __ ] and everybody else had
to hear that wondering what in the
absolute [ __ ] was happening, knowing
that they have to go next, thinking that
they were prepared, sounding like and
then somebody sounds like they're just
like talking to a dinosaur and then is
being pulled unconscious out of the
water and being slapped back to life by
a dude with seven years of medical
school.
That's one way.
The noises you you could just see people
are just like, "Ah, God." And you're
like, "God, I love my job."
>> It just it warms your soul like a candle
that starts a forest fire, you know?
>> Uhhuh. Uh
>> uh. And what about the underwater swim?
Same thing. Just people struggle with
that. They make weird noises when they
come out.
>> Well, only when they pass out. Of all
the evolutions in training, that is the
only one I'm aware of that if you pass
out, so you jump into the water front
some soul
>> front some
>> I don't know. I don't know. Well, it's
just it's weird. It interrupts because
anybody could like run and jump and dive
and carry the momentum, right?
>> And it it like screws with your ability
to hold your breath like just enough,
right? Like we know you can do this, but
can you do it the way we ask you to do
it for no reason other than we're asking
you to do it? So you jump in front
somersault. The smart students dive down
to the bottom of the pool because it
compresses your lung a little bit more.
It makes it easier to hold your breath
than maybe 6 in above the surface
>> or below the surface. You get the other
side, you touch the other side, you have
to do another [ __ ] front flip. And I
think this just so you can't push off.
Actually, now that I think about it,
>> you start coming back. This is also a
one to one instructor ratio. So anytime
it's one to one, it's considered more
high risk. This is the only evolution
that I'm aware of that as you are if you
can stay down there and do like this
last herculean breast stroke in your
forward momentum your head touches the
wall as you are unconscious we will pull
you out and you go to the pass line but
the noises that students make when they
come out of the water
I don't know how to describe it and it's
it's like a drunk elephant trumpeting or
a blue whale surfacing is you're trying
to get water out of No, because they're
just unconscious. They're only
unconscious for a few seconds,
>> right?
>> But they're just like,
and meanwhile, all the other students
are just like, "Oh my god,
it's wild." And yeah, cuz people like,
"Oh man, they make you hold your breath
in training until you pass out, right?"
Like, no. Actually, in every evolution
in the water, if you pass out, you're
going to fail for not following
procedure because there's a hand signal
you can put out if you need us to come
down and get you.
>> But does that not mean you fail, too?
>> It means you fail. So, but that if you
get to that point, it it means you
either didn't follow procedure or you
didn't control your, you know what I
mean? Like something went ary and that's
why you don't get just one and done. You
get four attempts at the test. Most
people pass it on their third attempt.
The dieting test that I administer.
>> Oh, okay. Yeah. You get two attempts on
one day and two attempts on the next
day,
>> right?
>> With a really probably great night's
sleep. That's [ __ ] rough that you
have to know that you've got to go back
and do it again.
>> As somebody who passed on their third
try, you don't sleep very much. It
sucks. And then that night I slept way
better. But to go back to chunking, the
reason I failed the first two times, the
first time I go was 30 years ago, I
remember there's a knot where your head
can get turned to the side and it's just
an exhalation knot. Meaning you can
still inhale and get air, but your head
is crimped to the side and you can't
blow. It's a regulator much like Jacqu
Custau would die with. It's two rubber
hoses that come to a bit essentially. So
your head is yanked to the left and all
you have to do is breathe out of your
nose,
>> but down there you're like freaking out
because this happens within 30 seconds
of starting. And a little bit of water
is coming into your mouthpiece, too,
because your head is to the back. And I
remember the first time that happened to
me, I started thinking about the exact
thing I was telling myself, I can't do
this for 20 minutes. All I started
thinking about was the gap in between
the two. Same thing on the second test.
By the time I got in the third one, the
only thing I was thinking about was the
problem that was introduced at that
time, which again was the head yanked to
the left, like whatever, no problem.
Just went back to crawling, meaning as
the student, you accept the malfunction.
It's not a critical malfunction. You're
ready to continue with the test. I'm
like,
>> why didn't I just do this first?
That's the only thing I changed was I
was like one problem at a time. We're
going to work it. And that's the only
thing that exists in my life is that one
problem at a time. Why is it important
to have a proper attrition rate for
people to actually die? Because the job
is very dangerous. And I know I don't
want people to die, but if nobody ever
died in training, you are not training
hard enough. The training has to be a
reverse engineering
downstream
real world requirements of the job that
you are expected to do. And it is a
dangerous job. You cannot prepare for
that by avoiding danger and training.
Because if no one ever died, there
wouldn't be anything on the line.
Ultimately, there wouldn't be a
sufficient risk for the guys to know
that
>> you wouldn't be pushing it hard enough.
>> There's a reason to fear it.
>> Yep. You wouldn't be pushing hard
enough.
>> What's the most common way that people
die?
>> Drowner.
>> Uh that is not uncommon. I Well, the
last one I think in the pool was
somebody who uh vomited and then
aspirated it while they were underwater.
Um
the last student to die at training was
post hell week. Um, and I don't remember
the exact medical term, but it was fluid
into the lungs. Uh, and he made it to
the hospital, but still expired.
It's it you you are destroyed at the end
of hell week. It's the only week
afterwards where they let you walk in
tennis shoes.
I mean, you're like you're wearing life
jacket like you are sand is abrasive.
For people who didn't know this, imagine
just basically wearing sandpaper for a
week because you're wet and sandy the
entire time.
>> It does things to the body. Uh, and
yeah, you're just absolutely destroyed.
And most people are nursing an injury
anyway uh throughout training. But yeah,
that won't get you.
>> What role do you think hardship plays in
people's lives?
>> I'm at a place now, as I'm getting
closer to 50 than 40, that I actually
think the pursuit of an easy life is a
mistake. I think that the grind is
actually what life is all about. It's a
It's not a matter of whether you're
going to have a a hard life or an easy
life. It's an ability your ability to
determine how well that you can suffer
along the way and trying to enjoy the
journey.
>> Okay. So, as somebody that has either
endured or doled out quite a bit of
suffering,
how do people deal with suffering more
effectively?
First, by acknowledging that sometimes
the answer is you're going to suffer
instead of looking for a way to avoid it
altogether. You know, you don't have to
nerf all the corners on tables. Maybe
you shouldn't. Maybe it's okay to bang
your knee every once in a while in the
middle of the night. So, I think it's
actually starts with accepting that
if you really want to accomplish
something in your life, there's no hack
to hard work. I I think you should hack
as many like for efficiencies like hack
your Gmail inbox. Like totally go to
town. Hack your business systems.
There's no
there is no substitute for hard work. Do
you have anything in your life that was
truly given to you that you didn't work
for at all, but you accept? Yeah, value,
right? And then I look at the things
that I work the hardest for and the
goals that I set where I'm like, am I
out of my mind? Like, can I actually do
this? That's the stuff that I value the
most. And then I'm trying to trying to
emphasis on this learn how to enjoy that
journey more because it's harder and
enjoying hard things is it's difficult.
What gets in the way of enjoying it?
>> Usually just myself. You know, I my
biggest enemy throughout my entire life
has been myself. You know, waking up
knowing your day is going to be
difficult or more difficult or choosing
to have it be more difficult to do the
hard work up front so maybe you can
enjoy an easier day later in the week.
It's not, you know, it's challenging.
>> I think that's where people struggle.
It's where I struggle.
>> It's strange to think that as you get
older, you try to make things harder,
not easier.
>> Yeah. My goal in life for sure up until
we say exceptionally recently was let's
make things as easy as possible.
>> Everybody's searching for that. Then you
just you know you realize that all the
stuff that you got easy
>> just doesn't matter.
>> It's the stuff that sucks. Especially if
you could share that with your friends.
That's the biggest thing I would say I
probably miss about the community is
that we would do the dumbest most
painful [ __ ] ever and laugh about it
while we were doing it
>> because you were doing it with somebody
else.
>> Yeah. Totally. It would suck by
yourself. I mean, you could do it, but
watching somebody else suffer with you
and finding joy in that. Yeah.
>> If you could take one lesson from the
SEAL teams and force every young man to
learn it, what would it be?
>> One lesson.
Be cautious and make sure you know what
you're willing to die for, cuz not
everything's worth it.
Same.
Many times in my life, the things that I
thought were the most important ended up
being inconsequential
because I didn't put enough thought or
time and effort into understanding why I
wanted to do them. And killing yourself
and sacrificing everything in your life
and trying to achieve that, you might
get it at the end of the day and be the
most hollow shell of a human being known
to man.
And how do you do that assessment
without having to go through it?
>> I think you have to slow down a little
bit. We seem to be in a world where
speed is one of the most important
metrics. And I think that's important at
times, but do all decisions have to be
made in a moment's notice? For me, it's
one of the things I really like. If your
house is on fire, get the [ __ ] out of
your house, right?
If your house isn't on fire and you have
time to make a decision, think about the
decision. Think about your available
options and make the most educated one
at the time. And then on that journey,
keep asking yourself, is this, you know
what I mean? Like reinforcing it along
the way as opposed to just one decision
and then you're fullback dive straight
ahead.
>> Mhm.
>> I don't think you can get to that point
though without making some mistakes on
your own. Like people always ask me,
what would you say to your younger self?
The truly honest answer is buy Bitcoin,
you [ __ ]
>> Yes. Buy Bitcoin and do 531. That's it.
>> But here's the problem, though. If I was
18 and my 48-year-old self went back,
I'd be like, "Shut up, dude. I got this
figured out."
>> All right, granddad, sit down.
>> Yeah, totally. I pretty pretty sure I'd
like to invest in uh new cars. Uh
>> I like to buy high and sell low. It's
not a big deal. It's a new investment
strategy.
>> Yeah. Um, I I wouldn't have listened to
myself, but
I also probably
would not remove the mistakes. I
wouldn't remove some key mistakes in my
life just to make sure that I learned
the lesson from them.
>> Mhm.
>> I would remove some for sure because
they were unneathless, you know, pain
and suffering. And don't worry, I made
they were repeats of mistakes that I was
already making.
>> Yeah.
>> But you have to have those mistakes. The
fascinating thing about the question,
what would you tell your younger self?
What advice would you give to your
younger self? If you answer that, it is
almost always the exact advice that you
need to hear right now. In the same way
that you've got the same feet that you
did 30 years ago, you have the same
patterns, the same fears, the same
coping mechanisms, the same responses
when things become stressful or
overwhelming.
And that means that you're going to be
driven by those unconscious
unalchemized trends. Those are going to
be the things. They're going to be the
[ __ ] that you dealt with when you were
18 and you got cut from the baseball
team or the way that your first breakup
felt and how you coped with it after
that. For the most part, those are going
to be the dynamics that are going to
drive the rest of your life, too. So,
when you think about So, for me, it
would be fear less. Like, just stop
[ __ ] fearing so much, dude. What do
you fear the most?
>> Not doing it right. Not getting it
right. What do you use as your yard
stick for that though?
>> Totally
superfluous
ethereal [ __ ] fluffy big cloud of
like something going wrong. Things will
go wrong and you'll be in the wrong and
something will be taken away from you. I
don't know what. I don't know by who.
But not doing it right, not getting it
right, not being enough. I don't know
who, for or why. All that's going to
happen though,
>> of course.
>> So, isn't the juice then in just
preparing yourself for that and working
your way through
>> and then overcoming it? Yeah, of course.
Which I've done throughout my entire
life. But the
>> I'll be the judge of that, sir.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Interestingly, we have a we
have a pool and a bunch of knots for you
to get stuck into after.
>> Um, you know, all of the things,
everybody that's listening, whatever the
challenge is that you thought was going
to destroy you by virtue of the fact
that you're listening to this, it
hasn't.
>> Can I add one thing to that, too? And
this is one thing that I wish I know
people hear this but they don't believe
me. Whatever it is you think you're
going through.
Please do not convince yourself that you
are the only one struggling with it. My
god. If co taught us anything
that it should be that isolation
or even perceived isolation is one of
the most damaging things to the human
brain. We are every person I've ever met
in my life is more defined by their
similarities than by their differences.
And the it is so unfortunate uh again
statistically the world that I come from
has a much higher suicide rate than many
other occupational fields. And for those
that have chosen to leave things behind
oftent times there are deep sentiments
of being isolated and alone and feeling
like they were dealing with something
that nobody else would or was or that
nobody else would understand.
>> And it's not true. you're you can't
nobody knows what's going on behind your
eyes, right? Like we I guarantee you and
I are probably
spend our mental bandwidth worrying
about the vast majority of the same
[ __ ]
>> But in my mind, I'd be like, "God,
nobody else." They're like, "Who who
could I possibly talk to about this?"
Cuz I'm the only one on earth dealing
with this. And the reality is almost
everybody is. So we lie to ourselves.
You isolate. You don't say anything. And
it ends up getting worse. And it's
interesting you said um I don't think
that I can do the thing that I need to
do for as long as is going to be
required of me. And that's not too
dissimilar to one of the most common
thoughts that people have before taking
their own lives, which is that the world
would be better off without me.
>> I can't take this anymore.
>> The people around me would be better off
without me and I can't continue.
>> Yeah.
>> Uh and it's the combination of those two
things. It's the isolation that's in
there, too. the wonderful line, the
feeling of being alone is one of the
most dangerous lies we tell ourselves. I
have never asked for help and not
received it.
>> Mhm.
>> And I have been like in tears,
overwhelmed with the number of people
who saw that I needed help but didn't
say anything cuz they were waiting for
me to ask.
>> Well, this is a curse of being
competent. you the sort of people that
listen to this show and read books like
yours, they're the kinds of people who
usually in their friend group are the
ones that have got it figured out. You
know, they they're the ones that are
working on their diet,
>> that are thinking about their sleep
pattern, that are reading and doing
meditation, they're everything maxing
>> like Thor.
>> Yeah. He he didn't he just genetics
maxed. And um
what that means is that if you're the
friend that always seems like you've got
your life sorted,
people tend to not want to come to your
aid because oh [ __ ] like you know,
Andy's the guy that that I go to. Like
who am I? Who am I? Who am I to help
him? Like he's he's got it sorted. Like
he's not he's not on me. Like he's it's
going to be embarrassing or it's going
to be whatever. And um it's a weird
inversion of things that are of there's
lots of ways that competence is great,
but this is one of the ways where
competence can hold you back. And uh
>> yeah.
>> Yeah. I think it's it goes back to the
misconceptions about special operations
defined by their competence. A country
calls upon that community to solve
problems when they can't figure out
another solution. And by the way,
they're not looking for a uh negative
result. They're looking for success.
>> I wrote this essay. This
came to me when you were talking about
the fact that you stayed in a a marriage
for longer than you should have done and
that you'd used a skill that had got you
a lot of accolade in your military
career, but it had damaged you when it
came to your relationship.
>> The curse of psychological strength.
Everyone has a limit, an end to the
amount of discomfort that they can cope
with. This is obvious physically. Some
people can lift more or run further than
others. But how much emotional pain,
upset, or disappointment a person can
endure is subtler and harder to detect.
It's not apparent in the size of
someone's arms, but the capacity of
their nervous system. It's not a weight
that you can see on squat rack. It's
their ability to carry a heavy emotional
load. This psychological strength can be
a good thing. You're able to handle more
than most. You don't bulk at pain. You
keep pushing through regardless of how
you feel. But too much strength can be a
weakness. High performers are
particularly vulnerable to this trap.
Psychological strength is rewarded
almost everywhere. In the gym, it's
discipline. In business, it's grit. In
public, it's composure. You become the
person who can handle it, who doesn't
complain, who pushes through when others
would quit. Your ability to ignore how
you feel and keep moving forward earns
admiration, builds your career, and
creates momentum. But what you are
praised for in public, you often pay for
in private.
Relationships don't reward endurance.
They require attunement. If your default
strategy in life is to absorb discomfort
and override warning signs, you will do
exactly that when someone repeatedly
hurts you. You'll rationalize it,
reframe it, decide it's your job to make
it work. And the stronger you are, the
longer you can stay. What looks like
strength from the outside becomes
self-abandonment on the inside. You've
trained yourself to believe that
struggle is noble and difficulty is
meaningful. So when love feels
destabilizing, it doesn't register as a
warning. It feels like a challenge and
challenges are your thing. But a
relationship isn't a marathon to be
endured. It's a place to feel safe. The
qualities that make you formidable in
the arena can quietly make you miserable
in your own living room. Let's say that
you're dating and feel like a side
character in your own relationship. You
put them first and they put you sixth.
The rupture is regular and the repair is
absent. Lower resilience, less stubborn
people would have broken long ago and
said, "I'm out." But not you. You're the
jocker willink of psychological
suffering. Forget carrying the boats.
You'll carry the whole fleet forever. In
these situations, you're faced with a
much tougher problem. Not how much can
you tolerate, but how much do you want
to tolerate? Perhaps this is what you
had to do as a child. If your needs
weren't noticed, your sadness was
ignored, and your feelings didn't
matter, then you become accustomed to
pushing through disconnection in order
to make those relationships function. If
child you learns I need to work hard to
be loved, then adult you believes if I
am not loved, I just need to work
harder. You've achieved 10,000 hours of
ignoring your own needs. You can't tell
people how you feel without first
worrying about how it'll make them feel.
You unconsciously believe that suffering
is the price of connection and that
silent subjugation is noble. You
basically think I should be able to
tolerate the intolerable in order to
make this work.
What inspired you to write that?
>> Thinking about some of the ways that I'd
denied myself
uh prioritization that I'd pushed
through discomfort because I could
because
almost everything that was valuable in
life had come on the other side of
working hard and going through
difficulty. So there's just this
implicit belief that well
>> if something's hard that must mean that
there's something valuable on the other
side of it. But there is such a thing as
kind of pointless suffering.
>> Yeah.
>> You made me think it made me think about
Yeah. the curse of psychological
strength and made me think about what
you were saying.
>> Sounded very self-reflective as you were
writing it.
>> Massive. Massively. I I could have
easily you use you have a better grasp
on the English language than I do.
probably because you guys and you guys
don't use it properly, but you guys
might have
>> kind of invented it. Yeah.
>> So, yeah. No, that's uh
>> Say more.
>> It's good, man. That's I can hear uh a
startling amount of myself.
>> Yeah.
>> Than that. It's tough. Yeah. What people
see from the outside isn't always what
going on on the inside.
>> I like that line. You know, what what
you are praised for in public, you pay
for in private. And uh it's one of the
reasons why when you look at anybody
that's a a high performer or somebody
that's in the SEALs or you know whatever
uh anybody that's got unusual results
typically has unusual inputs and an
unusual environment internally too.
>> Mhm.
>> You know normal people get normal
results. Weird people get weird results.
and the most successful popular in the
world, you shouldn't your first response
shouldn't necessarily be envy. A lot of
the time it should be pity. Like what
happened to you that caused you to do
that to yourself or at what cost?
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> What did you have to go through in order
to get that? Man, that message is so not
put out there that be careful what you
wish for and you know, envy may not be
the first thing that you cross your mind
when you see somebody who has something
you want. It's the it's the question
that I've been most fascinated by on the
show for probably about 5 years now.
Unfortunately, it's an anti-me. It's if
you tell people that the view from the
top of the mountain that they are still
climbing maybe might not be worth the
rest of the journey. It feels to them
like you're sucking the oxygen out of
the fuel tank because it is it is [ __ ]
your feelings just work harder you will
get there and glory is waiting for you.
The total addressable market for that is
99.999%
of people. the people who get there or
got close to the top and said, "I think
this is a false peak. I don't think that
what's up there is going to be worth
it." Or they got there and said, "No."
There's a very small number of people
who got there and went, "Ah, it's two
mountains. That's the problem." As
opposed to this entire game is kind of
rigged against me and I actually need to
look deeper. I'm not going to fill an
internal void with external accolades,
etc., etc., etc. That's an anti-me. It's
an anti-me and it is always going to
lose to a much more simplistic. No, no,
no. It's just more. The answer is more.
You should push for more.
>> Yeah.
>> Uh
>> well, especially in a society that
celebrates more.
>> It's radical to say that you're
satisfied. The most radical thing that
you can do in a meritocracy that's
capitalist is say, "I'm good." It's to
be in Montana as opposed to downtown New
York City. It's to
I kind of like my life. This is kind of
enough for me.
>> And uh
>> yeah, dude, it's it's it's [ __ ]
fascinating. And what's more fascinating
to me is how many guys have come out of
special operations and uh turned their
hand. There's still always the [ __ ]
glint in your guys' eyes. The little
Yeah, that one.
>> What do you mean?
>> The Tell me more.
>> I'm scared you're going to pin me down
after we finish up, which actually is my
request. Um
it's the the the turn to [ __ ] like I
really did a lot physically kind of in
these three dimensions and then you know
this is
you trying to turn that mirror around I
guess on yourself and then start to show
it to other people too.
The most common thing people say to me
when they find out about my background,
they'll say, first off, dude, you must
be crazy. So, I I skipped that part of
it. But they'll say those experiences
must have been like unbelievable.
And the reality is they were and they
are statistically out of reach for
almost everybody.
But if I end up doing nothing with that
and only it only impacts my life and I'm
on my deathbed, I will regret not doing
something with that. And I think that
there is a way
to take those experiences
and package them in a way that can help
people because at this point in my life,
all I really actually want to do is make
the world a little bit better than it
was when I came into it. Like that's
literally money's cool. I like nice
things as well, too. But I'm also at a
point in my life where like, okay, I get
it. Like I might want the nice thing,
but there's no actual happiness from the
nice thing. Teaching somebody something
or giving them a tool that they can use
to just attack a problem in their life,
that's [ __ ] awesome. And it is so
much more rewarding than a thing that
you write a check for. And that's what
I'm trying to do with that is to take
experiences and tools and lessons that
people think they don't have access to.
And I I will be honest with this too.
You can learn or be exposed to those
lessons and organized sports. It's not
like the milit There's no unique
creations inside of the military. Yeah,
a lot of things are reinforced to a
higher degree because the consequences
of the environment can get pretty gnarly
pretty quick. But if things work in that
pressure cooker environment, you're
telling me that they're not going to
work in your personal and professional
life. It'll help you just crush whatever
it is that you're trying to do. And
that's
>> I resisted writing something for many
years. One, because I talk so much [ __ ]
about other guys who were seals that
wrote books and now I'm welld deserved
and deserving of the other people who
are talking [ __ ] on me. But um I just
I want to try to take those to create
tools to give people a foundation and a
framework to throw it at whatever it is
is going on in their life. so
that they can maybe suffer better. I
don't know if that's a a great way to
put it, but just to attack whatever it
is that's going on in their life.
>> Suffer better is a wonderful tagline,
dude. If the world went completely
sideways from a zombie virus outbreak,
we had to put together a militia to save
the human race. Andy Stump would be my
top draft pick. Can you imagine how
[ __ ] the rest of the militia would
be?
>> Oh, exceptionally.
>> You're the first guy.
>> Yeah.
>> The tip of the spear. Well, the base of
the shaft perhaps.
>> Ah, of course. Andy, you're a [ __ ]
legend, dude. I appreciate the hell out
of you. Congratulations on this. It was
awesome. Worked real hard on it.
>> Yeah, it's uh
I don't know if you get emails like
this. I'm sure you do
>> because the internet's a weird place,
right? We hit upload and I don't know
where anything goes.
>> Your platform is massive and I could not
be more proud for what you have built.
Thank you. But I bet you get emails from
people that you'll never meet and they
say, "You know what? Something I heard
you say or a guest say, changed the
course and trajectory of my life." And
that is
I don't I save those emails. I have a I
have a folder about a dozen people have
reached out and said they chose not to
kill themselves because of something
they heard on the podcast.
Books are measured by bestseller lists.
[ __ ] all that.
I want to hear about people who changed
the course of their life because it's
something they got from a place that
they never thought that they would have
access to
>> but picked this up and realized, "Holy
[ __ ] we are way more simpler and I can
use this and I will use it." And you're
still going to make mistakes and I hope
you do cuz you need them. But it'll help
you suffer better.
>> [ __ ] yeah, dude. You're awesome. You're
awesome. Congratulations.
>> Thank you, man. Appreciate it.
>> All right. Goodbye, everybody. Dude,
it's [ __ ] go. So good. Unreal.
Unreal.
>> Thank you very much for tuning in. If
you enjoyed that episode, YouTube knows
who you are deeply. It thinks you're
going to like this one even more.
Go on.