Link: https://youtu.be/kccrkCGGzX4

Duration: 151 min

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Short Summary

Host Jesse Michels interviews Jason Samosa, a YouTube creator focused on UFO history, and Jason Breslow to trace a sprawling web linking Jacques Vallée's "messengers of deception" hypothesis, Tom DeLonge's disclosure path, the Collins Elite, and post-WWII intelligence-financial networks (the OSS, the World Commerce Corporation, and figures like Allen Dulles and Nelson Rockefeller) to modern UFO secrecy, the Vatican, and alleged Catholic power structures. The conversation also covers secret UFO programs (AATIP, ATIP, Kona Blue), presidential briefings, crash retrievals, hybrid programs, and psychological manipulation strategies reportedly used against UFO researchers.

Key Quotes

1. "So, it really is a huge way that you can control the behavior of an entire planet." (00:00:15)
2. "the intended effect is actually to create mythology in some ways." (00:07:27)
3. "It's an epistemological revolution. It's not a scientific revolution." (01:08:37)
4. "I couldn't prove that I was in communication with God, that the Bible was literally inspired by God or that Jesus had risen from the dead." (00:28:56)
5. "the UFO subreddit in 2017 when the New York Times article came out, it had 70,000 people on it. After that article, now it's 2026, there are 4 million people on that subreddit." (00:30:12)

Detailed Summary

Deep State History, UFO Disclosure, and Catholic Power Networks: A Two-Part Interview with Jason Samosa and Jason Breslow

Episode Overview

Host Jesse Michels conducts two extended interviews exploring the historical and institutional infrastructure behind UFO secrecy. First, he speaks with Jason Samosa, a YouTube creator focused on UFO history, then with Jason Breslow, to trace a sprawling web linking Jacques Vallée's deception hypothesis, Tom DeLonge's disclosure path, the Collins Elite, and post-WWII intelligence-financial networks to modern UFO secrecy, the Vatican, and alleged Catholic power structures.

Interviewee Backgrounds

• Jason Samosa runs a YouTube channel focused on UFOs and historical deep dives into ufology, joining Jesse for the first half of the episode.
• Jason Breslow joins in the second half to discuss deep state history, UFO disclosure, and Catholic power structures.
• Host Jesse Michels spent three years studying theology and philosophy in a "Christian bubble," and at age 25 was advised to take a year off and work a normal job, leading him to a call center in one of England's most deprived towns.
• Jesse concluded he could not prove he was in communication with God or that the Bible was literally inspired, despite being able to confirm the historicity of large portions of it, and frames "disclosure" as a personal process rather than an external document release.

Vallée's "Messengers of Deception" Hypothesis

• Jacques Vallée's Messengers of Deception argues the extraterrestrial hypothesis fails to explain UFO data because the phenomena repeatedly land and appear in many variations rather than simply transporting beings from point A to point B.
• Vallée's analytical framework emphasizes the cultural impact of UFOs on human belief systems over time, suggesting the intended effect may be to create mythology and produce a slow shift in human self-perception.
• He has stated on James Fox's program that humanity may be engaging with an artificial intelligence created by a non-human intelligence from another planet.
• Apocalyptic warnings such as "you are destroying yourself" are framed as charismatic narratives rather than literal truths, drawing a parallel to Old Testament prophets' unfulfilled doom-and-gloom predictions.
• Jesse argues this hypothesis collapses into radical Cartesian doubt and solipsism if humans' beliefs may be shaped by an outside phenomenon, raising serious epistemological problems.

Cult Dynamics and the Apocalyptic Frame

• The apocalyptic message, when people believe destruction is imminent, is used as a way to control behavior on a planetary scale, functioning as a mythological control system rather than a literal prediction.
• Speakers reference When Prophecy Fails, describing a 1950s Ohio cult as a model for how UFO contactees spawn prophetic, mythology-building movements.
• George Adamski is cited as an early US contactee whose case illustrates cult-like mythology around a single charismatic figure.
• Jolly West, identified as an MK Ultra architect and former head of UCLA psychiatry, is linked to theories that he brainwashed Charles Manson and studied cult creation methodology.
• Philip Zimbardo's Stanford Prison Experiment is cited as parallel state-funded-era research into inherently subversive organizations and behavior control.
• Peter Levenda is cited alongside Vallée for correlating cult activity with the UFO phenomenon in his written work.
• One speaker warns of circular reasoning when interpreting UFOs as demons and then using the Bible's fallen-angel framework to validate that interpretation, noting this approach risks conflating frameworks with evidence.

The Collins Elite and CIA UFO-Occult Link

• Nick Redfern's Final Events describes the Collins Elite program as tracing back to just after the Roswell crash of 1947.
• In 1952, the CIA's Directorate of Plans allegedly funded approximately 12 people full-time to investigate the correlation between UFOs and the occult.
• A group called "the Family" (also "the Fellowship"), founded in the 1930s, is described as an invisible network of Protestant Christians throughout the U.S. government.
• Alonzo McDonald, staff director for Jimmy Carter and CEO of McKinsey, was a member of the Family; James Baker served as Reagan's staff director and was reportedly involved in a UFO-related briefing.
• Doug Coe was described as a leader of the Family in the 1980s, hosting prayer breakfasts attended by U.S. presidents and other senior officials.

Tom DeLonge and the Disclosure Path

• Tom DeLonge, frontman of Blink-182, has been fascinated with UFOs from a young age, with video footage predating the band's start showing him discussing the topic publicly.
• He began building a project around 2013 integrating music, media, and broader topics as a natural evolution from his time in the band.
• Peter Levenda joined DeLonge's effort in November 2014, by which point DeLonge had already accumulated roughly 10 advisers.
• DeLonge won over a Lockheed Martin Skunk Works contact by sending a piece of content about cargo cults (referencing a French Polynesian tribe that built a replica control tower hoping to summon planes).
• After the Skunk Works meeting, he was flown to the Pentagon and then onward to NASA, where General Mike Kerry introduced him to General William Neil McCasland (a former head of Wright-Patterson's lab and the Air Force Research Laboratory).
• McCasland warned DeLonge he might find "a group of people stumbling around an elephant," each touching different parts and mistaking it for the whole.
• Hacked Podesta emails contained roughly 35 email exchanges between DeLonge and Podesta's team, referencing a meeting attended by McCasland, Michael Kerry, the head of Skunk Works, and Podesta.
• During the 2016 U.S. election cycle, John Podesta and Hillary Clinton publicly discussed UFOs despite the political risk demonstrated by Dennis Kucinich being laughed off the 2010 debate stage over his UFO associations.
• DeLonge's book Secret Machines, co-authored with AJ Hartley, features the "Maynard Consortium," a private organization described as having influence over the UFO issue and broader geopolitics.
• Jim Semivan, a former CIA Senior Executive Service officer and adviser to To The Stars Academy, said the Maynard Consortium portrayal is accurate to real-world power structures but declined to elaborate on the record.

Presidential UFO Briefings

• Research suggests Nixon, Carter, Reagan, and Bush all received UFO briefings, while Clinton appears demonstrably not briefed and had to fight for information using all his resources without success.
• Ross Coulthart has noted a contrast between Republican presidents receiving UFO information and Democratic presidents not receiving it, suggesting a partisan or factional gatekeeping pattern.
• Clinton attended a Bilderberg meeting once before being elected, positioning him as more of an outsider than Reagan, Nixon, or the Bush family.
• Lawrence Rockefeller was very close with the Clintons and pushed a major initiative trying to get them to pursue UFO disclosure.
• There is a documented photo of Hillary Clinton at Camp David holding University of Arizona physicist Paul Davies' book Are We Alone?.
• Dr. Ronald Pandolfi ran the CIA's UFO information unit, colloquially the "weird desk," whose function has moved around many times within the agency.
• Pandolfi told Bruce McCandliss, a Navy physicist and longtime civilian UFO researcher, to give his CIA lecture to Clinton's science adviser on roughly one day's notice rather than sending a CIA official.
• William Nepal, with closer interactions with Pandolfi, suggested the CIA simply wanted to push Clinton's UFO inquiry away from productive outcomes.
• On James Corden, Obama stated "there are things in our sky that we can't identify," and in a recent podcast said "aliens are real," walking it back shortly after.
• Obama's CIA director John Brennan and DNI James Clapper appeared in a film tacitly endorsing real UFO tracking programs at Area 51 (Clapper said he helped set them up) and a multigenerational crash retrieval/reverse-engineering legacy program.
• John Greenwald's FOIA reportedly returned either 3,000 or 30,000 references in Obama administration documents to terms including UFO, UAP, ORAP, and ATIP.

Public UFO Programs and Budget Comparisons

• Senator Harry Reid set up AATIP from 2007 to 2012, which was followed by a slimmer ATIP "overhang program."
• The ORSAP program, funded through DIA and run by Bigelow Aerospace, looked at 260,000 different UFO cases with seven levels of analysis, described as probably the biggest study of UFO data ever conducted.
• A program called Kona Blue allegedly involved transferring UFO material assets between Lockheed Martin and Bigelow Aerospace, with a budget of about $22 million.
• For comparison, a single F-35 fighter jet costs $85 million and a single B-2 stealth bomber costs over $1 billion.
• The speaker argues that spending $22 million on reverse engineering a warp-capable craft makes no sense from a military-industrial perspective, suggesting the real money must be elsewhere.
• David Grusch allegedly encountered a legacy UFO reverse-engineering program with spending potentially in the hundreds of billions or trillions of dollars.
• Bob Lazar stated in 1989 he worked on craft at S4, framing his work as "parallel engineering" rather than true reverse engineering.
• Eric Davis stated there were no physicists assigned to the legacy/crash-retrieval program, a notable absence if reverse engineering is the goal.
• Jim Lacatski, a DIA rocket scientist involved in OSAP, now writes about UFO-related material as if it is a mystical/platonic object rather than something amenable to physics analysis.
• Jesse and his editors traveled to Aztec, New Mexico to investigate a reported UFO crash, and Jesse says he went in skeptical and came out fairly convinced a crash occurred there.

Vallée's Most Recent Journals and "Confirmation, Not Disclosure"

• Vallée's journals document White House rumors from early 2013 indicating planning for what appeared to be an official UFO-related initiative.
• The plan is described as "confirmation, not disclosure"—releasing some information but not full disclosure.
• Vallée hints two or three times in his journals that an existential threat may have been detected but does not elaborate on the specifics.
• DeLonge appeared on Coast to Coast AM with George Knapp in 2011 as one of the biggest celebrities the show had discussing disclosure.
• The r/UFOs subreddit grew from roughly 70,000 in 2017 to about 4 million by 2026, raising questions about whether UFO interest has been actively promoted or merely catalyzed.

Crash Retrievals and the Phenomenon as Interface

• Thomas Towns-Brown engaged in a 1958 crash retrieval operation in Hartford, Connecticut, as documented by researcher Michael Swords.
• Towns-Brown later moved into Project Moonwatch, a satellite-viewing operation tied to Project Blue Book, where he reportedly flashed credentials to take custody of crash material from figures Robert Friend and Jay Allen Heinik.
• Towns-Brown communicated with "space brothers" and was funded by Agnu Bonson, who reportedly had contact with non-human intelligence.
• Vallée built a database (the Capella database) containing roughly 260,000 cases of UFO-related reports with levels of analysis applied.
• Vallée summarizes his view that UFOs are not designed to transport beings from point A to point B but to interface with human consciousness, similar to how the brain combines daily experiences into dreams.
• The speaker argues the UFO/UAP matter constitutes an "epistemological revolution" rather than a scientific one, breaking down the observer-observed dichotomy.
• Suggests the purpose of the phenomenon may be personal evolution rather than disclosure, with any system designed to thwart objective scientific theory as currently practiced.
• The speaker is sympathetic to the hypothesis that UAP may be von Neumann replicator-style envoys from a larger intelligence, with gray aliens described as robotic and droid-like in behavior; crashes could reflect disposable "Earth homeostasis kit" probes.

WWII Intelligence Networks and the World Commerce Corporation

• The Office of Strategic Services (OSS) was run by William "Wild Bill" Donovan with Allen Dulles, while the Office for the Coordination of Interamerican Affairs was run by Nelson Rockefeller.
• British Security Coordination was run by William Stevenson with offices in Rockefeller Plaza next to the OSS, and the UK's Special Operations Executive was run by Charles Hambro (described as a Bank of England director).
• The World Commerce Corporation (WCC) was founded in Panama in 1945 and rebranded in 1947, with Donovan, Stevenson, and Hambro on the board and Dulles as legal counsel.
• The WCC grew to between 250 and 500 subsidiaries within a couple of years, with connections to organized crime and the Nazi underground.
• Peter Dale Scott, credited with coining "deep state," described the WCC as a private intelligence agency for financiers like the Rockefellers.

Money Laundering via Moneyrex and Bahamas Operations

• In 1964, Michele Sindona created "Moneyrex," a single entity connected to 850 banks, used in what author Paul Williams calls the world's biggest money laundering operation at $200 billion.
• Sindona worked with CIA's James Jesus Angleton and major mob figures, and his bank acquisitions included the Vatican Bank and a bank run by Charles Hambro.
• After the Hawks Bill Creek Agreement, a group purchased 50,000 acres from the Bahamian government to create an autonomous state with no laws; the entity DEVC0 was created in the Bahamas under WCC control.
• In 1955, German industrial titan Alfried Krupp traveled to Nassau with Swedish billionaire Axel Wenner-Gren, who purchased Hog Island and rebranded it Paradise Island.
• The Mary Carter Paint Company, described as a CIA front, was converted into Resorts International, which ran Paradise Island's casinos for money laundering.
• Resorts International created a subsidiary rebranded as International Intelligence Incorporated, employing former CIA and MI6 personnel.
• Donald Trump became the controller of Resorts International in the mid-1970s for roughly one year while the private intelligence network was still operating.

Hybrid Programs and Disclosure Timing

• Luis Elizondo's "10-course menu" metaphor suggests disclosure must be piece by piece; roughly five or six courses are already out (something in the air, non-Russia/China origin, crash recoveries, bodies, secret programs, sensitivity).
• Hybridization would be a late-stage disclosure topic because it raises questions about human relatedness to non-human entities and destabilizes religious texts.
• Ryan Bledoe recounted that Jim Semivan purportedly told him experiencers may have more non-human DNA or a specific non-human DNA strand.
• According to "Imminent," people with Cherokee blood and DNA appear to have more experiences and are more inclined toward government UFO-related work.

Vatican, Catholic Networks, and Eschatology

• The Vatican has lasted approximately 2,000 years by resisting change, including the Reformation and the Enlightenment.
• After the Congress of Vienna in 1815 (overseen by Clemens von Metternich), the Vatican and monarchies colluded to rebuild old power structures.
• At the 1917 Fatima miracle, approximately 70,000 people witnessed what serious sources described as a "silvery disc"; the Vatican explained this as the sun flying around the sky.
• Bishop McIntyre was documented at Edwards Air Force Base in 1954, around when Eisenhower was rumored to make a deal allowing medical experiments on humans in exchange for alien technology.
• Cardinal Francis Spellman was given access to Roswell materials per Majestic 12 documents; he was grand protector of the Knights of Malta.
• The Air Force Office of Special Investigations (AFOSI) founding director was a devout Catholic, and AFOSI oversaw the very beginnings of the "Collins Elite" theory.
• Data cited shows 33% of Irish Catholics have served in the military, and 40-50% of Medal of Honor awards were given to Catholics; many CIA directors are reportedly Knights of Malta.
• Two eschatological factions are described: those wanting to "imminentize the eschaton" and those wanting to restrain it and keep institutions intact.
• The hosts dismissed the "20 and Back" Corey Goode/Gaia story as ridiculous while acknowledging a real conversation about secret space programs exists.

UFO Secrecy Strategies and Modern Disclosure

• Ben Rich reportedly claimed at the end of his life that the UFO issue was governed by an international corporate board, corresponding to what Towns-Brown describes as "the Caroline Group" of industrialists that absorbs exotic technology.
• Jason Breslow described a manipulation strategy where a secrecy faction uses trusted sources to build credibility, then introduces false information while turning active researchers passive.
• Breslow cited a CIA counterintel handbook on manufacturing infighting, comparing UFO Twitter to MTV reality shows and "Lord of the Flies."
• Over the last 10 years, UFOs have gone mainstream, with public interest shifting from "why would they keep it secret" to grappling with the phenomenon's details.
• In the UK, content appearing on the Discovery Channel is immediately considered unacceptable, creating a default snobbish skepticism; King Charles is reportedly interested in UFOs, with a claimed link to his uncle Louis Mountbatten.

Nazi-Era Technology Retrieval and Historical Networks

• John Warner IV recounted that his grandfather Paul Mellon told him he and Allen Dulles conducted a post-WWII tech retrieval operation in Pilzen, Czechoslovakia (1944-45), where they stood atop a large saucer-shaped craft.
• General Patton's army was dispatched to Pilzen before Berlin at the end of WWII, framed as significant because Pilzen housed Nazi secret weapons programs.
• Herman Oberth, the godfather of German rocketry and Wernher von Braun's mentor, openly discussed UFOs and stated the German rocket program "was aided and had help."
• Rudolph Schriever claimed that in 1944 he flew a disc-shaped craft rising to approximately 40,000 feet in a few minutes.
• Richard Mita gave a 1952 interview claiming UFOs seen in the sky were craft he designed under the Haber project (with SCOD working under Hans Kammler).
• The Maison Rouge meeting occurred around August 10, 1944 in Paris, where Martin Borman assembled Nazi-aligned industrialists to plan mass evacuation of German industry, technology, and personnel.
• A 1945 U.S. State Department document references hundreds of new companies set up in Nicaragua and Argentina linked to these industrialists.
• Attendees included Herman Schmidt of IG Farben, representatives of Ford and Standard Oil's German subdivisions, the Bank of International Settlements, and Baron von Schroeder.
• For 20 years prior to the war, these European industrialists maintained deep relationships with American and UK counterparts including the Rockefellers, the Morgans, and Hambro.
• The Business Plot involved Morgan, DuPont, and other transnational financiers attempting to recruit General Smedley Butler to lead an army of roughly 500,000 people to forcibly remove FDR from office.
• Prescott Bush served as president of the Union Bank, which financed Nazi operations, while Allen Dulles was based in Switzerland helping arrange Nazi financing.
• When the UK sought jet engines during WWII, Ford refused and prioritized manufacturing trunks for Nazi Germany.
• FDR wrote in a letter that "the financial interests had owned America since the time of Andrew Jackson."

Other Notable Claims and Contemporary Pushbacks

• Prince Hans Adam of Liechtenstein believes Jesus will show up on a flying saucer, illustrating the intersection of aristocratic eschatology and UFO belief.
• Anna Paulina Luna tweeted a recommendation to "read the Book of Enoch," which the speaker pushes back against, arguing the Book should be treated as one case within the data rather than an interpretive framework.
• Skywatcher is identified as a "modern version" of UFO summoning or contact programs, presented as a contemporary analog to historical special access programs.
• The documentary/book Age of Disclosure is mentioned as part of ongoing open discussion of crash retrievals within certain circles, indicating growing normalization of the topic.